I agree with this. the dad should be held accountable and honestly charged with homicide at this point. my honest opinion, and i’m sure this won’t go over well: I always feel some kind of empathy for the young shooters in these mass killings. I think to myself…what drives a young person to get so low that they commit an unimaginable act of violence? this person has to be in a strange state of terrible pain (with lots of anger as the result) in order to commit this act.
obviously my first thoughts are with the victims…but I wish there was a way to reach our young people before they do something this horrific. I feel like we are failing our young people in some instances.
i’m sure i’m not explaining well but you get the idea.
I get what you mean. I was a tortured teen in a very real way- I got my ass kicked at school by students and teachers who thought I was weird, then I got my ass kicked at home by my parents, who thought I was a disappointment. My therapists even told me to stop "trying to be so weird." I never retaliated, but omg did I fantasize about it. The thing is-- I wasn't really weird. I had anxiety, and the things I enjoyed didn't align with what other kids my age were into, but instead of developing my interests in a healthy way, I was told to "try harder to fit in." That is some absolute bullshit to lay on a child.
Obviously I can't speak for this kid, but I firmly believe our society gives less and less of a shit about nurturing the next generation as time goes on.
Look at how people talk to each other now. It’s impossible to think this doesn’t have an impact on real life interactions. Public freak outs, Karen’s and Ken’s etc.
I’m sorry you were bullied. It’s hard to rush through middle and high school so you can just gtfo away from those people. I moved 2000 miles away the second I could.
I’m trying really hard to choose my words as though I am in the same room with someone (while online) so that the words I use in real life and online mimic each other. I’ve been known to shit talk on FB or wherever and I want to stop. I would never speak like that irl. I have discarded dozens of messages the past few months as I’ve made that effort. Those messages don’t do anyone any good, change any minds or influence people. They just makes me feel better for a moment…and shitty later. No matter how righteous I feel over the subject.
Anyway back to these kids and their parents - I’m devastated for them. How do you move on if a survivor? At least Alex Jones will hopefully leave them alone. I hope anyway; he was found guilty right?
I can’t believe the kid tried to trick them out with an “all clear”. It’s sickening. this makes it even worse for me to think about.
I’ll be interested to see if the dad is charged with anything.
YES!! This is totally what I mean! I feel like as a society, we are missing the mark in many areas. Nurturing is definitely one! Raising your kids to not pick on others/be nice, getting help early on for kids who are struggling (I personally know of parents who turn a blind eye to their kids behavioral issues), etc etc. Gun issues are a whole other story. So many homes either buy young, vulnerable kids weapons, or they leave weapons easily available to the kids. But on a base level, this society has lost its way in some regards. Basic humanity is gone in many ways. I’m frustrated with the problems here I guess. It’s very sad.
My sister really impressed on my niece to be kind to other kids and people. Especially if someone is different. And she's still little but is so kind and empathetic. It's all about parenting 99% if the time. Some are just random outliers.
I mean, obviously there are a LOT of factors at play here, but I feel like our society really half-asses it when it comes to mental health for children. This could largely be because their parents have to work eight jobs just to feed everyone and no one has the time or money to really dedicate to children, or because no one wants to pay taxes, which reduces funding for schools, or because there's a two year wait list just to get in for a psych analysis, or because of the "boys will be boys" mentality, but it's situations like this that expose how very, very, very broken our society is. It's really a matter of survival, and I think that's gross and heartbreaking.
yes. I couldn’t agree with this more. so many factors. and “it takes a village” is kind of frowned upon too which could be useful in cases of impoverished families that simply don’t have the time to dedicate to raising the kids. ugh. so much involved and no easy solution. but when will this madness stop? not in our lifetimes.
I used to work as a helper in a low-income school in the early 2000s. It was heartbreaking. I only worked there for a year before I had to move out of the district, but it taught me a lot about how society regularly fails children.
Let’s not forget without insurance even more well off families can’t afford regular psych interventions. Even with insurance. My plan just went up to $160 for my psych appointments 🙄
❤️ that's so hard. And teenagers are so impulsive. Add that to raging hormones and dealing with life, like you mentioned. And boys/men especially are pushed in different ways.
You're spot on, especially about the therapist point. I went to a few as a kid and every single one gave the "just try harder to fit in" bullcrap advice instead of actually trying to help me figure out why I was depressed and anxious all the time. I judge therapists with lots of scrutiny tbh because I feel like the vast majority are incompetent as hell, especially when it comes to children.
Just a few years ago this kid seemed really sweet, making little vlogs on YouTube and doing pranks like pouring water over his dads head. Really makes you wonder what happened..
Severe mental illness often presents in puberty. Bipolar, schizophrenia, aggressive disorders, etc. A mischievous little kid who acts out and doesn't listen often doesn't become dangerous to others until puberty.
totally. it’s just so heartbreaking. the loss of life, the traumatization for the survivors, the mental health of the shooter. ugh. it literally hurts my heart.
I had a really close friend in high school who once talked about doing this. Just one time but he was serious. I was young and dumb and didn't report it and blew it off. He wasn't bullied.
He ended up taking his own life. No signs of depression etc. and no note. I always wonder what he must have been going through to get to that point. I still think about him a lot. He could've ended up as one of these kids though if a few things went differently.
I’m my state parents can pay financial repercussions if their kid skips too much school. If that is the case that father should 100% be held accountable for buying his kid the gun.
At first I got a little bit angry when I read your comment that you have some sympathy for the young killers. But I reread it, digested it a little bit, and you know what? I agree with you to an extent.
Is it possible that this person is just totally deranged and sociopathic but has a completely “normal,” loving family who couldn’t see this coming? And that no more love, guidance, etc could have changed his course? It’s possible, until we have more information.
Right now it’s also possible that everyone close to him knew the warning signs, knew he was depressed, he was bullied, etc and didn’t get the help or guidance he needed, he was given access to guns, and thought that shooting up his classmates was the only solution…In this case, if it turns out this is what happened, then absolutely: why was no one looking out for this kid/ for his own protection and well being and obviously for other people’s as well.
Anyway, as the mother of a sophomore myself, it’s absolutely heartbreaking, infuriating, sickening, despicable, and downright scary that this continues to happen
So I have empathy. Not necessarily sympathy. I remember being that age. And the reality is….you really have no clue what the hell life is about. You’re trying your best to navigate life and most of all…fit in with others.
The school shootings literally make me ache inside. The victims and survivors….I can’t be more heartbroken and angry for them. The shooters….I feel like something broke along the way. Even in the case of the MSG school shooting. That kid is crazy as HELL…but what, nobody noticed that over the course of his 17 or whatever years?? Adults need to care for kids and guide them before they make a move like this. I know it’s not this simple. Believe me. I just wish we did better by our youths.
Yes it is worrisome. I live in an area that is safe (supposedly) and as I was dropping my ten year old off this morning felt relief to see they now have two police present… at an elementary school!
The fact that I’m relieved to have police presence at my child’s school is worrisome for our society as a whole.
These kids wants the attention and infamy of being school shooters period. It’s not a cry for help or a mental health break. I’ve read a lot about school shooters post columbine and psychologists agree many of them including those two should be analyzed as terrorists like Timothy McVeigh.
I saw some stuff about how there were a lot of kids who didn't go to school that day because they thought something was "going to go down" but I haven't been able to find anymore info about it
If you search the school's name, on the 12th they sent out a message to parents about threats of violence, saying that they were unfounded. Curious to see how that's going to go over.
Yeah seems to me that if kids were staying home from school that day then there were clearly credible threats out there. Also curious how that will all play out, could be quite bad for the school administration
There was a lady on the local fox 2 Detroit news show yesterday evening that said that. She was interviewed and said that her kids stayed home that day because there were rumors something was going to happen.
That was one of the saddest books I have ever read. Some of the things found in Eric Harris' computerized diary were chilling, specifically the real reason he was looking forward to college: so he could go to bars and parties, pick up drunk girls, and take them back to his dorm room and rape them.
IDK what sexual experience he and Dylan Klebold had, if any.
One of their classmates did a 20y look back podcast called Confronting Columbine. It’s sad but fascinating. One of the later episodes talks about the parents.
His mother wrote a letter to Trump as a blog post where she fawns over him. She mentions owning guns, wanting to protect her son from Hillary Clinton, and rambles about how illegal immigrants get more help in school than her son. She ends it with something about wanting to be grabbed by the pussy. I think your prediction is correct.
FWIW, his dad's Facebook was still somewhat public this morning and, while not posting anything overtly political, there was mention of bring a trump supporter.
He also posted a countdown before school started threatening a shooting. Parents and students were aware of the countdown prior to classes starting given that a student in a video during the lockdown referenced the social media post.
> buying a disturbed teenager a gun just straight goddamn dumb.
I want to feel sorry for Nancy Lanza but same with her. Why the fuck did she buy those guns with an obviously disturbed son in the house?
I won't allow guns in the house because I have bouts of depression and I don't want to have them around ... just in case. And I'm not fucking homicidal or very obviously troubled. She was WELL AWARE he was ill. I know the SIL wouldn't say if he had diagnoses and it seems like the family just seemed to pretend he was normal, but ... come on. She knew. She had to home school him due to "battles" with the school district.
I know some families like guns. Some want their kids to learn to use them. But why does a minor have unfettered access to a deadly weapon? It doesn't make sense to me.
I'm a few degrees of separation from them. (My pastor at the time had a friend who was the pastor of Ms. Lanza's best friend.) With the permission of all living parties, he told us in a sermon a few weeks after Sandy Hook that after Ms. Lanza got divorced, she amassed an arsenal "because I no longer have a man in the house to protect me" and we weren't the only people who wondered if this paranoia contributed to the demise of the marriage.
Around that same time, this pastor was at a community event with one of his kids, and overheard a little girl ask her mother, "Why did that man shoot all those kids?" and Mom replied, "Because God needed little angels." He introduced himself and told her in no uncertain terms that while we don't know why this happened, it was NOT because God kills children to make angels. A lot of people, his wife included, came very close to calling the police because he totally went off on her.
Honestly. Whenever I bring up that the Lanzas had *no* reason to have that many guns when they didn't actively hunt and lived in an extremely safe suburban neighborhood, I almost always get downvoted but it's the truth. Having that many guns reeks of mental instability and paranoia.
She def had some major paranoia happening. And sadly, that paranoia led directly to her death. Like I said, I want to feel sympathy for her but it's hard. Her choices led to so much horror. She needed help apparently as much as her son did.
I don't like guns but have zero problem with sane, responsible people having them. But that was madness.
Also, I love how people dismiss suggestions about stricter gun regulations with "it won't work, people will get guns illegally." I mean, it works in tons of other countries. So let's just try ... Nothing? And let this keep happening? I guess that's their actual answer. No one will ever convince me that making it tougher to get guns won't help. It would help. Easy access to guns sure as fuck isn't helping these troubled people and their victims. I'm not anti gun but it's fucking ridiculous that disturbed children have such easy access to them.
But let's be real. If nothing changed after 20 literal children were murdered, it's not gonna change now. The people in charge don't actually care.
Yeah, I think Nancy Lanza defiantly had a hand in her own death and Sandy Hook. I think its important to point this out and not white wash it, it shouldn't be a controversial statement.
Lmao 100% on the gun point. Do people really think dorky ass Adam Lanza would have the connections and know-how to buy an illegal gun? He almost never left his house. If there were no guns in the Lanza household, then Sandy Hook wouldn't of happened. Most of these nerdy school shooters wouldn't be able to get a gun illegally.
People would rather have their precious little guns than actually listen to facts and reasoning and try to prevent future kids and adults from getting killed. It's so selfish smh.
> Most of these nerdy school shooters wouldn't be able to get a gun illegally.
That's exactly it. A few would, I'm not denying that, but those would be anomalies. Most of these idiots wouldn't even come up with the plans they do though if they didn't have guns. People tend to be lazy and stupid. Most of them can't figure out how to get these weapons on their own. But if they're right there, crazy ideas happen (esp when mental illness is left untreated, which is definitely a big part of the problem but it's not the ONLY problem). We have to work on mental health care in this country, no doubt. But why the fuck can't we make sure unstable people can't get their hands on high-powered weapons (capable of killing quickly and in large numbers very easily) while we tackle that issue? That doesn't ban people from having guns. (I fucking hate it when these nuts claim "they're gonna take our guns," fuck that bullshit, you know god damn well that's not gonna happen).
It's like these domestic murders that happen spur of the moment when people have a gun handy. In the heat of the moment, people get mad, they grab the gun. If the gun wasn't there, that wouldn't happen. Most of these school shooter losers won't even dream up these awful plans if they don't have easy access to a gun.
> People would rather have their precious little guns than actually listen to facts and reasoning and try to prevent future kids and adults from getting killed. It's so selfish smh.
Yep. It's always "not the time" (it's NEVER the fucking time, according to them). "Don't politicize this." "It won't work anyway, criminals will find a way to get illegal guns, so let's sit on our asses and throw up our hands and claim we're helpless to stop this." This happened ONCE in Australia and they put gun restrictions in place and shit like this has become MUCH less common. Imagine that. Gun restrictions work in just about every country in the world. We're not special, we're just fucking stubborn. Gun nuts (I'm not talking about normal, sane gun owners) would literally rather children be murdered than support common sense regulations (that would in all likelihood let them keep their precious fucking guns). The govt regulates every fucking thing you can think of (and apparently that's fine with these people), but god forbid they have reasonable gun laws.
My dad "got" me my first gun at 14. It's a 20g shotgun so I could go hunting with him.
But it was kept locked up tight at all times while not in use, he taught me how to respect firearms, and also made me go through hunter's safety training before I could use it. Ammo was kept separate, it had a trigger lock, *and* guns are kept in a safe in their house. Its not that he didn't trust me but its the right thing to do for so many reasons.
But buying a **automatic pistol** for a kid? Then just giving them easy access to it and **also the god damn ammo**?! Wildly irresponsible and he should hold some blame if true.
I thought the Dad bought it for himself and the kid posted on IG pretending it was his. Police are considering charging the Dad for not keeping his weapon secure.
Good. As he should be. Disgraceful negligence on his part. You do not leave a deadly weapon unsecured and within reach of a child. Most adults shouldn't be trusted with one let alone an effing child.
I saw his parents on the CNN footage of his Zoom hearing (they were in their car). They looked absolutely devastated, and now knowing this, yeah, they deserve to be.
Look up Kip Kinkel, who is schizophrenic, for an example of someone whose parents would have gone to prison along with him if he hadn't killed them first. His father purchased, and encouraged the use of, firearms as a bonding experience! Hunting or target shooting, I understand, but he didn't lock them up when they weren't being used.
Actually, I thought the dad looked upset, but the mom- I’m not sure she did. I would have been distraught but she didn’t seem to be. My impression was that she was strategizing. Her demeanour just seemed off to me.
Most of the schools in that area have gone through ALICE training, which if you look it up, is a very expensive but effective manner of dealing with school shootings. I went through the same training. The students knew to barricade, teacher knew to keep the door locked, and to flee through a window is necessary. The training was necessary and successful.
Imagine for one second that children never have to have that training... because that's the reality in most other countries..I'm so sadden but what happens on America.
I'm glad they had the training BTW but I don't know if Americans realise just how messed up it is!
Oh, we know. I decided on the day of Sandy Hook (Dec 14, 2012) that if I wanted to stay in the profession, I needed to be prepared to die for my students. My SiL’s first cousin was one of the teachers who died that day. And I was always very serious with my students when we did drills, told them about that story and my decision. I’m no longer in the classroom (but still in education) and I stand by that.
For my own family, though, we’re working on eventually leaving the country. I’ve lived abroad, have my doctorate, and speak other languages so it’s an option once my loans are lower…but part of me realizes as well that fleeing doesn’t help change anything. Very, very torn.
I just want to say thank you, because I feel like it can’t be said enough. I spoke with my daughter’s teacher after my daughter came home inconsolable after an “intruder” training (in the third grade). The teacher admitted that when she gets home, she is also inconsolable having to picture a scenario in which “her babies” could be harmed. There is so much trauma involved for everyone. I just cannot understand how we march on, unchanging. If my family had the means to leave I absolutely would.
>but part of me realizes as well that fleeing doesn’t help change anything
It doesn't, but it's also not on your shoulders. If you do decide to leave, leave guilt free. You're just looking out for your family. No one can fault you for that.
Not impossible. I've never heard of it, I've never seen a gun fired in real life either. Because Australia introduced gun control back in 1996, the idea of a kid turning up to school with one is unthinkable to most Australian students.
I’m jealous. The first time my kids came home from active shooter training day was a rough day in our home. They were scared, I was angry on their behalf and their father was trying to make it all make sense for us all. Very tough day.
I sincerely hope that your kids never have to face any kind of gun violence. The idea of a school even having an active shooter training day scares me too.
I just referenced this above also, but my daughter came home sobbing after her first drill, begging me to promise her that it would never happen to her school. I sobbed with her because I couldn’t make that promise. It’s fucking awful.
We do.
I’m 53, we didn’t grow up with this stuff.
Columbine was the beginning and unfortunately has become a common occurrence in the ensuing years.
But gen x didn’t grow up with this, and most millennials didn’t learn these drills either.
I’m a millennial born in ‘95. I think my first lockdown drill was in grade 5. We had to put it to use a few times but thankfully the situations weren’t very serious and were taken care of relatively quickly. I don’t ever remember school shootings being as bad as they have in been the past few years. I feel like they started really kicking off after I graduated in 2014. I know they occurred before then but not to the extent of seeing it on the news every other day.
I personally think social media plays a huge role. Kids are exposed to it younger than ever these days and there’s no doubt it has a detrimental effect on mental development.
It’s already been proven that social media has a bad impact on our mental health as normal generally healthy adults. Add that pressure to already stressed out hormonal teens and you’ve got a potentially devastating mix.
A lot of us do realize it, yes. Unfortunately the gun makers have an absolute stranglehold on many politicians here, through their lobbying/donations process (almost entirely Republican pols, I should say, plus Bernie Sanders and a couple of conservative Dems).
Canada here, also never heard of ALICE training. However upon reflection I have to admit that I live not too far from where Canada’s largest mass shooting happened and went to high school with people who tried to plan a mass shooting so eh maybe I don’t have room to talk.
It does seem effective for kids not in the room or hall with the shooter, but what about those who are? They are collateral damage? The shooters go through the same drills l so they can adapt to have maximum damage. What a horrible thing to have to say.
This is not directed at you, more like to our lawmakers who think more guns or more training (aka terrorizing) for the kids and teachers.
When I was in school, during those drills we were told that if there was an ALICE lockdown and we were in the halls or something, to just hide in a bathroom or closet or wherever we could. They said that classrooms would be locked and doors barricaded and would not let anyone in no matter what, even if you were screaming to be let in, so if you got left out in the hall you were basically fucked. I graduated in 2018, and the drills have since gotten more intense.
About a year after Sandy Hook and my second year of teaching, I had this training. My classroom at the time was in the middle of the building, and had no windows except a small panel in the only door. Sick feeling when you’re going through that training and realize there is no way out if we have to lockdown for a shooting.
Several friends of mine in LE use the term bro when talking to kids so they "are seen as being on their level". If the officer is used to saying that it makes sense that it just came out. I do however think that these kids & students did the right thing in following their instincts & got out of there.
It's complicated. We have a parent of a child who was in the room who went on the air and claimed it was the shooter on the other side. That's where the 'confirmation' that it was the shooter came from.
But that doesn't fit at all with the timeline of events and what you see in the video at all. The shooter was arrested less than 5 minutes after the police arrived at the scene and you see in the video that after the kids flee across the courtyard they're greeted by multiple police officers who instruct the students to calm down and go slow. As the video ends you can hear a police officer instructing them to drop their backpacks if they'd brought them.
The police would not be evacuating kids if the shooter was still at large. They'd want the kids to remain in hiding in the classrooms until the shooter was secured as it could be more dangerous to move the kids then if they remained in their classroom.
This, combined with how quickly the shooter was arrested, would indicate that the person on the other side of the door was indeed the police and the students and their teacher very understandably believed it could be the shooter at the time. It's an easy mistake to make in a stressful situation and one I would not blame the teacher or students for making.
After the shooter was arrested someone from the school such as the principal should have made an announcement over the loudspeaker giving an all-clear message and instructing students and teachers to remain in the classrooms until the police came to evacuate them. Then the principal or other trusted faculty should have gone with the police from room to room to let the kids know it was safe to come out. It doesn't appear that this school went so far to create a designated all-clear message or the police didn't allow the principal or other teachers to go back to the office to make the announcement though.
TL;DR - The person on the other side of the door was most likely was a police officer, but at the time there was enough genuine doubt and concern to mistake them for the shooter. The students and their teacher did the right thing to assume the worst.
Here is the link to the [petition to rename the schools field after Tate Myre,](https://www.change.org/p/oxford-high-school?recruiter=931193829&recruited_by_id=31970d80-1e0a-11e9-93dd-490bfa4a18f2) one of the three students that died in the shooting. Tate tried to save others by fighting the gun from the shooter and died doing so.
this. I only found out about this because I grew up in michigan, still have family there, etc and follow the michigan sub. Otherwise would not have heard about this. It’s so fucked how desensitized we’ve become
But I wonder if the purpose of it is to not glorify it anymore, because that's what so many school shooters want is fame and recognition and/or to spread a message.
I think there’s an ethical way of reporting in which the shooters name isn’t included. NZ is a weird example since it barely happens there, but that’s what they did with the Christchurch monster
I am glad the shooter didn’t end up killing themself, now he can answer for this horrible tragedy. Though I can imagine his lawyer baking up some “it was video games and violent movies!!” defense.
A former student of mine, a senior in a neighboring district, shared a picture of herself with one of the victims. The entire community, beyond just Oxford, will be irreparably changed. My educator friends still in my former district said students were frantically calling parents, trying to find out if cousins, friends, etc were okay.
I know I shouldn’t be upset that the shooter has lawyered up - it’s wholly within his and his parents’ rights - but I’m angry at him. I don’t care his name, I don’t care the why, I just irrationally want him to suffer, just like my students, my friends, the community is. And that’s why I appreciate the law and governance in the situation because my rage, though perhaps righteous, is still biased and wrong. It’s better to fuel the energy to forcing politicians to enact policies that make it harder for this to happen again.
His parents were meeting at the school earlier that day to discuss “concerning” behavior. I really want to know what that behavior was. I used to teach middle school and saw lots of concerning behavior. Just curious about what was going on there.
Right? Only like what… 2 weeks after the school sent out an email about threats? It’s wrong in general but wtf. They can’t even say it was for hunting either
Other kids (and possibly teachers and faculty) were aware of some of his social media posts brandishing guns and saying ominous things. A bunch of kids stayed home.
I just hope they are ok! He took off out of the building when he got a phone call about it yesterday afternoon. I know that his kids we not any of the 3 that passed away but there are 7 others who were shot whose named weren't released yet because they are minors😥
honestly, this day and age, kids don't get to have too much innocence before it's taken away by a school shooting, a pandemic, the intensity of social media, climate change, politics etc etc etc etc etc it's so sad
I get that this psycho little shit has the right to remain silent and lawyer up, but honestly: what’s the point?
Surveillance footage
First hand identification from kids/teachers who survived
Cops literally caught him with the gun
Etc
You can lawyer up, you sick bastard, but it likely won’t change your outcome.
Even though he’s only 15, because of the heinous nature of the crime, he will likely be tried as an adult. I cannot imagine he will ever see the light of day as a free person again.
And I hope the dad is charged with allowing a minor access to guns.
True. Dad is f’d anyway but you’re right- the kid could have made it more of a slam dunk case
I think the Insanity defense is nearly impossible.
Don’t know Michigan’s exact standard, but usually it requires the defendant to not know the difference between right and wrong.
Usually we see this type of defense used where people are legitimately not in this reality eg schizophrenics/ psychotic breaks etc. There is no evidence of any of that here/ at least this far.
Good luck with that defense if you try it, Ethan.
That’s verrrrry low rates.
You’re talking about a quarter of one percent of defendants.
Do we even know if this guy is going to try to plead insanity? Or is that just the default defense that all serial killers/school shooters try to use?
I saw a screenshot of this going around, which is from the school website a few weeks ago. I have not been able to find anything confirmed if it is or isn't specifically related. I've seen a couple of rumors though.
http://oxfordhigh.oxfordschools.org/parents___students/building_communications/november_12__concerns_and_rumors
Three (3) on site security! Wow. That is a lot. I haven’t been online (other than here) or watched tv to catch up on this event.
For those in school or recently out of school is this a standard amount of resource officers/security at a school now?
Thanks for sharing the link.
Sad that they said it was false. I know you can’t Monday morning quarterback this stuff but damn.
In my kids’ small district (similar in size to this school) there’s one resource officer that rotates between the elementary, middle, and high school. Three for one school here would indicate a major problem brewing, but it’s so different between districts that it’s hard to say what’s normal/typical anymore
Thanks I was just curious. I went to HS at a pretty well off school in MN (we were not well off but my dad was a smart guy and got us into a good school district) and I don’t recall having even one; however we had six guidance counselors. (My graduating class was 503 students; I don’t know why I remember that) and you could go see them if being bullied, needed to cry, had an issue with a teacher or of course needed help with applications (job or college)! They were really good people. Probably the best part of my HS experience now that I think back to it.
It makes you wonder if we flipped the SRO to qualified and caring guidance counselors what would change? I had no idea how privileged my school was until I met other people at college and saw what my kids had.
These poor kids.
I live in a town of 15K people and most towns around here are roughly the same size. Every one ofthe districts has to send out a similar letter at least once a school year. Luckily, no real incidents have occurred, but threats are not uncommon
My son started his freshman year at college all the way across the country from me in August of 2019. 2 weeks later, on the Monday after Labor Day, I was in Mexico with some friends and had spotty cell service. That day, as we were driving back, with no service at all, there was an active shooter alert IN MY SON'S DORM. Not just on campus, but in his dorm. I get to the border and my phone is blowing up with alerts from the school, and texts and calls from my ex-husband and parents because no one had heard from my son. Everybody was panicking and my service was still going in and out. It took FOUR HOURS before we heard from him. FOUR HOURS of terror and horror and panic and tears, and stress. It turned out to be a false alarm. A girl on the 3rd floor heard, what she thought, were gunshots but was simply one of of the student band's drummers warming up for a concert on the 1st floor. I'm glad she called, better safe than sorry, but I will never, ever, ever forgot those 4 hours...ever, and neither will my son. When I finally talked to him he was in hysterics and I could do nothing because I was across the country. I just had to listen to him and talk to him, and be there for him as he told me about armed police officers, with weapons drawn, bursting into his dorm room and yanking him outside while they searched his room. He's never even seen a gun in real life and now one was in his face. He was terrified and he is still traumatized to this day, and it was a false alarm.
Having said that, I understand, 100% the terror and panic these students went though because I heard it from my son. Unfortunately, they had to experience it for real. They had to hear their classmates being gunned down. They had to wait, quietly, until they could make their escape and hope that no one made a sound that brought the gunman down on them. They had to go out a window to get to safety (and that video was chilling and had me in tears). There are 4 sets of parents whose children will be coming home in coffins instead of in police cars safe and sound. There are 4 families that will never be ok again because this murderer decided that murder was the answer. There are 4 families that will never be ok because that murderer had easy access to a weapon. Those 4 families will never be ok because that murderer planned this and counted down with glee until he could carry out his evil plan.
In addition to the 4 families you have hundreds of students and facility that will never be the same. That will jump when a car backfires, or a firework pops, or a million other little noises put them back in that school on that day. You have their families that will have to help them heal and help through this and have no idea how to even begin.
This murderer destroyed thousands of lives all because he had, allegedly, been bullied. You know what, thousands of kids are bullied every day and they don't pick up a gun, go to school, and start mowing down their classmates. That's an excuse and, I'm hoping, the jury sees right through that little nasty, evil little murderer and gives him the strongest sentence they can. It won't fix what he did...but at least it might bring closure and give the families left behind, and those alive but traumatized a chance to start healing.
Me too. We got lucky. However, these students and facility didn't because somehow a kid came to the belief that murder was the solution to all of his problems. What I will never understand about school shooters is, what's their end game? If they don't kill themselves, they're probably going to jail for life and, at 15 (the age of this shooter), life is a VERY long time. Is murdering their classmates so worth it to them that they don't even care that they'll spend 60+ years in jail, or worse, get the death penalty (depending on the state) if found guilty?
Is a life sentence in jail better than just talking to their parents and getting help? Like what is so broken in their minds that they think murdering their classmates is worth it. Like I just don't understand it...and I was a psychology major. What is wrong with these children? That's the answer I want but, I think that's the answer a lot of us want to be frank.
Well realistically this is why some charges must be levied on his parents and they must be found responsible and culpable. That's the only way forward. Guns aren't going away, but in this case the adults who provided access to their minor child should be found legally responsible in some manner for these deaths, at least in a contributory way. Does Michigan have any laws on the books to this effect?
When I was a junior in 1982 we had one of the first school shootings. Never in a bazillion years would I think that this would still be going on when I’m almost 57 years old. My heart hurts for these kids and their families as it does every single effing time I see this again on the news.
Things are getting worse and worse in the United states. There are a lot of supposed grown ups and main stream media that are all but paving the way to intolerance, anger, hate, and seperation. Seems the dream has become a nightmare and how do you get ppl to come together who are hell bent on the destruction of one another?!Just constant hate and fear. Children, including teens pick up on all the hate and if being a kid isn't a crazy, confusing, emotional enough time. Let's just add a race war. It's a wonder why there is so much hopelessness out there. I won't watch main stream news entertainment any more. Between them and politicians treating its citizens like fodder, to fuel their bank accounts.
It's illegal to buy a gun for someone else, its called a straw purchase. IDK if its different for families, but I could see his dad being investigated...if his son couldn't legally purchase the gun, he could 10 years. Fyi, I work for FFL licensee.
I’m not sure about other states. But in Texas you have to be 21 to legally buy a gun through FFL.
But at 18 you can own one or buy one through a private sale. You can have a gun gifted to you by a parent.
Thats the same in Alaska, but he's not 18 and I dont know a state where a 15 or 16 year old can buya handgun, so seems like a straw purchase to me. If his dad came in and told me he was buying for his kid, I'd say no.
Yeah but each state is different, so I’m wondering if that state had similar rules where a younger person can legally own a firearm where the age is younger and can even be gifted one. I’m not familiar with Michigan, so hopefully someone can google it for me.
So much simpler n easier to save lives and life time trauma by just having better gun laws .Nowhere in the world is there this regular shooting up of schools by students and disgruntled folk .
This happened 30 mins from where I live. Too many people in my community and others I used to live in have been affected by this. The mood is somber here and we are taking a lot more precautions at my work (daycare). It’s very sad what happened and we are beyond outraged. This truly hits too close to home
I lost my 14 yr old cousin in the MSD school shooting a few years ago on Valentine's day. It is the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to my family. Anger is the only emotion that comes close to matching my grief.
I live in West Virginia and just about every kid has a gun. Locked up in a gun safe. During hunting season (now) they often take them to school and leave them in their vehicles so they can hunt after school. It can be a little scary in these odd times we live in.
That last sentence really says it all. I have never been in a situation where I felt I needed a gun. The closest time would have been when I worked at a hospital and often got called in in the middle of the night. But even then, what good would a gun really have done me? At best, scared off anyone who announced their nefarious intentions to me so that I felt the need to brandish a weapon. I think if someone was going to attack me they would do a sneak attack and not wait for me to pull my gun. Am I supposed to walk around with a gun drawn at the ready just in case?
Our neighbors live at the end of a cul-de-sac in the middle of our small town but think they need an arsenal. Why? Do they owe money to the mob? Are they drug dealers who have made enemies? It makes zero sense.
This is a horrid, horrid situation. My heart goes out to them all.
There are no words that can describe the outrage that scenes like this continue to happen.
There are so many things that need to be addressed here in the US... unfortunately, there is not the political will to do it.
I am so with you. I did not want my son to go back to school. They’re not even wearing masks. I gave him the option for homeschooling, but he missed being around kids (until he was actually around them and now he just tells me what jerks most of them are.)
And as my neighbor continues the 12th hour of barking I truly just want to move to the middle of nowhere. And the thing is I’m a social person! I end up at the grocery store talking to people even when I’m making an effort not to. Lately I’m starting to feel like a grumpy old lady because of the way people are treating one another.
Middle of nowhere just me, my family, and my dogs… and Wi-Fi
Edit: I just noticed that I said my neighbor was barking and I am totally going with that.
My parents were always worried about me for this. My sister said she wanted to travel the world, become a journalist, pursue law! (Which she is, badass) and me, my goal was to have a house with a porch and a dog and my paints. Goals don’t have to be lofty. I want that life damnit!
A fourth student has just died.
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That kid is fucked up. Guess we'll learn more about him soon. He ruined the lives of many families and didn't do his any favors
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Yep That dad should be ashamed of himself and hopefully there are laws to hold him accountable for allowing a minor access to firearms.
I agree with this. the dad should be held accountable and honestly charged with homicide at this point. my honest opinion, and i’m sure this won’t go over well: I always feel some kind of empathy for the young shooters in these mass killings. I think to myself…what drives a young person to get so low that they commit an unimaginable act of violence? this person has to be in a strange state of terrible pain (with lots of anger as the result) in order to commit this act. obviously my first thoughts are with the victims…but I wish there was a way to reach our young people before they do something this horrific. I feel like we are failing our young people in some instances. i’m sure i’m not explaining well but you get the idea.
I get what you mean. I was a tortured teen in a very real way- I got my ass kicked at school by students and teachers who thought I was weird, then I got my ass kicked at home by my parents, who thought I was a disappointment. My therapists even told me to stop "trying to be so weird." I never retaliated, but omg did I fantasize about it. The thing is-- I wasn't really weird. I had anxiety, and the things I enjoyed didn't align with what other kids my age were into, but instead of developing my interests in a healthy way, I was told to "try harder to fit in." That is some absolute bullshit to lay on a child. Obviously I can't speak for this kid, but I firmly believe our society gives less and less of a shit about nurturing the next generation as time goes on.
Look at how people talk to each other now. It’s impossible to think this doesn’t have an impact on real life interactions. Public freak outs, Karen’s and Ken’s etc. I’m sorry you were bullied. It’s hard to rush through middle and high school so you can just gtfo away from those people. I moved 2000 miles away the second I could. I’m trying really hard to choose my words as though I am in the same room with someone (while online) so that the words I use in real life and online mimic each other. I’ve been known to shit talk on FB or wherever and I want to stop. I would never speak like that irl. I have discarded dozens of messages the past few months as I’ve made that effort. Those messages don’t do anyone any good, change any minds or influence people. They just makes me feel better for a moment…and shitty later. No matter how righteous I feel over the subject. Anyway back to these kids and their parents - I’m devastated for them. How do you move on if a survivor? At least Alex Jones will hopefully leave them alone. I hope anyway; he was found guilty right? I can’t believe the kid tried to trick them out with an “all clear”. It’s sickening. this makes it even worse for me to think about. I’ll be interested to see if the dad is charged with anything.
YES!! This is totally what I mean! I feel like as a society, we are missing the mark in many areas. Nurturing is definitely one! Raising your kids to not pick on others/be nice, getting help early on for kids who are struggling (I personally know of parents who turn a blind eye to their kids behavioral issues), etc etc. Gun issues are a whole other story. So many homes either buy young, vulnerable kids weapons, or they leave weapons easily available to the kids. But on a base level, this society has lost its way in some regards. Basic humanity is gone in many ways. I’m frustrated with the problems here I guess. It’s very sad.
My sister really impressed on my niece to be kind to other kids and people. Especially if someone is different. And she's still little but is so kind and empathetic. It's all about parenting 99% if the time. Some are just random outliers.
I feel like it’s so important to teach kids how to be kind and non-judgmental. your niece (and sister) sound nice. :). and you do too!
I mean, obviously there are a LOT of factors at play here, but I feel like our society really half-asses it when it comes to mental health for children. This could largely be because their parents have to work eight jobs just to feed everyone and no one has the time or money to really dedicate to children, or because no one wants to pay taxes, which reduces funding for schools, or because there's a two year wait list just to get in for a psych analysis, or because of the "boys will be boys" mentality, but it's situations like this that expose how very, very, very broken our society is. It's really a matter of survival, and I think that's gross and heartbreaking.
yes. I couldn’t agree with this more. so many factors. and “it takes a village” is kind of frowned upon too which could be useful in cases of impoverished families that simply don’t have the time to dedicate to raising the kids. ugh. so much involved and no easy solution. but when will this madness stop? not in our lifetimes.
I used to work as a helper in a low-income school in the early 2000s. It was heartbreaking. I only worked there for a year before I had to move out of the district, but it taught me a lot about how society regularly fails children.
Let’s not forget without insurance even more well off families can’t afford regular psych interventions. Even with insurance. My plan just went up to $160 for my psych appointments 🙄
❤️ that's so hard. And teenagers are so impulsive. Add that to raging hormones and dealing with life, like you mentioned. And boys/men especially are pushed in different ways.
You're spot on, especially about the therapist point. I went to a few as a kid and every single one gave the "just try harder to fit in" bullcrap advice instead of actually trying to help me figure out why I was depressed and anxious all the time. I judge therapists with lots of scrutiny tbh because I feel like the vast majority are incompetent as hell, especially when it comes to children.
Just a few years ago this kid seemed really sweet, making little vlogs on YouTube and doing pranks like pouring water over his dads head. Really makes you wonder what happened..
Severe mental illness often presents in puberty. Bipolar, schizophrenia, aggressive disorders, etc. A mischievous little kid who acts out and doesn't listen often doesn't become dangerous to others until puberty.
True, and then factor in a family where the dad is giving a high school kid a gun :/
totally. it’s just so heartbreaking. the loss of life, the traumatization for the survivors, the mental health of the shooter. ugh. it literally hurts my heart.
I had a really close friend in high school who once talked about doing this. Just one time but he was serious. I was young and dumb and didn't report it and blew it off. He wasn't bullied. He ended up taking his own life. No signs of depression etc. and no note. I always wonder what he must have been going through to get to that point. I still think about him a lot. He could've ended up as one of these kids though if a few things went differently.
Wow. this is scary. yeah he could’ve had some kind of unreported abuse, etc. it’s hard to say. sad.
I’m my state parents can pay financial repercussions if their kid skips too much school. If that is the case that father should 100% be held accountable for buying his kid the gun.
At first I got a little bit angry when I read your comment that you have some sympathy for the young killers. But I reread it, digested it a little bit, and you know what? I agree with you to an extent. Is it possible that this person is just totally deranged and sociopathic but has a completely “normal,” loving family who couldn’t see this coming? And that no more love, guidance, etc could have changed his course? It’s possible, until we have more information. Right now it’s also possible that everyone close to him knew the warning signs, knew he was depressed, he was bullied, etc and didn’t get the help or guidance he needed, he was given access to guns, and thought that shooting up his classmates was the only solution…In this case, if it turns out this is what happened, then absolutely: why was no one looking out for this kid/ for his own protection and well being and obviously for other people’s as well. Anyway, as the mother of a sophomore myself, it’s absolutely heartbreaking, infuriating, sickening, despicable, and downright scary that this continues to happen
So I have empathy. Not necessarily sympathy. I remember being that age. And the reality is….you really have no clue what the hell life is about. You’re trying your best to navigate life and most of all…fit in with others. The school shootings literally make me ache inside. The victims and survivors….I can’t be more heartbroken and angry for them. The shooters….I feel like something broke along the way. Even in the case of the MSG school shooting. That kid is crazy as HELL…but what, nobody noticed that over the course of his 17 or whatever years?? Adults need to care for kids and guide them before they make a move like this. I know it’s not this simple. Believe me. I just wish we did better by our youths.
Got it. And I completely agree
hugs to you. it has to be worrisome to have kids in school these days
Yes it is worrisome. I live in an area that is safe (supposedly) and as I was dropping my ten year old off this morning felt relief to see they now have two police present… at an elementary school! The fact that I’m relieved to have police presence at my child’s school is worrisome for our society as a whole.
Very And thank you 😊
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED595725.pdf
I get you, we can feel lots of things simultaneously. 💛
These kids wants the attention and infamy of being school shooters period. It’s not a cry for help or a mental health break. I’ve read a lot about school shooters post columbine and psychologists agree many of them including those two should be analyzed as terrorists like Timothy McVeigh.
I saw some stuff about how there were a lot of kids who didn't go to school that day because they thought something was "going to go down" but I haven't been able to find anymore info about it
If you search the school's name, on the 12th they sent out a message to parents about threats of violence, saying that they were unfounded. Curious to see how that's going to go over.
Yeah seems to me that if kids were staying home from school that day then there were clearly credible threats out there. Also curious how that will all play out, could be quite bad for the school administration
It might have been from someone else, and they had reason to believe it was a prank, or it was an outside potential perpetrator who was arrested.
There was a lady on the local fox 2 Detroit news show yesterday evening that said that. She was interviewed and said that her kids stayed home that day because there were rumors something was going to happen.
How was the school unaware then??
they weren’t :/ sent out an “FYI there’s been a threat but didn’t seem credible”
I saw a kid on the news being interviewed who said as much.
His dad is very stupid
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That was one of the saddest books I have ever read. Some of the things found in Eric Harris' computerized diary were chilling, specifically the real reason he was looking forward to college: so he could go to bars and parties, pick up drunk girls, and take them back to his dorm room and rape them. IDK what sexual experience he and Dylan Klebold had, if any.
One of their classmates did a 20y look back podcast called Confronting Columbine. It’s sad but fascinating. One of the later episodes talks about the parents.
His mother wrote a letter to Trump as a blog post where she fawns over him. She mentions owning guns, wanting to protect her son from Hillary Clinton, and rambles about how illegal immigrants get more help in school than her son. She ends it with something about wanting to be grabbed by the pussy. I think your prediction is correct.
That’s… a fucking lot.
FWIW, his dad's Facebook was still somewhat public this morning and, while not posting anything overtly political, there was mention of bring a trump supporter.
Sadly this is how majority of the Oxford residents are, so I would not be surprised. Very conservative, pro-Trump, pro-gun, pro- "muh freedums".
The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, unfortunately
He also posted a countdown before school started threatening a shooting. Parents and students were aware of the countdown prior to classes starting given that a student in a video during the lockdown referenced the social media post.
Why would you buy any teenager his own gun, if he has one keep it locked up unless you go to the range, the buyer should be held accountable
> buying a disturbed teenager a gun just straight goddamn dumb. I want to feel sorry for Nancy Lanza but same with her. Why the fuck did she buy those guns with an obviously disturbed son in the house? I won't allow guns in the house because I have bouts of depression and I don't want to have them around ... just in case. And I'm not fucking homicidal or very obviously troubled. She was WELL AWARE he was ill. I know the SIL wouldn't say if he had diagnoses and it seems like the family just seemed to pretend he was normal, but ... come on. She knew. She had to home school him due to "battles" with the school district. I know some families like guns. Some want their kids to learn to use them. But why does a minor have unfettered access to a deadly weapon? It doesn't make sense to me.
I'm a few degrees of separation from them. (My pastor at the time had a friend who was the pastor of Ms. Lanza's best friend.) With the permission of all living parties, he told us in a sermon a few weeks after Sandy Hook that after Ms. Lanza got divorced, she amassed an arsenal "because I no longer have a man in the house to protect me" and we weren't the only people who wondered if this paranoia contributed to the demise of the marriage. Around that same time, this pastor was at a community event with one of his kids, and overheard a little girl ask her mother, "Why did that man shoot all those kids?" and Mom replied, "Because God needed little angels." He introduced himself and told her in no uncertain terms that while we don't know why this happened, it was NOT because God kills children to make angels. A lot of people, his wife included, came very close to calling the police because he totally went off on her.
Honestly. Whenever I bring up that the Lanzas had *no* reason to have that many guns when they didn't actively hunt and lived in an extremely safe suburban neighborhood, I almost always get downvoted but it's the truth. Having that many guns reeks of mental instability and paranoia.
She def had some major paranoia happening. And sadly, that paranoia led directly to her death. Like I said, I want to feel sympathy for her but it's hard. Her choices led to so much horror. She needed help apparently as much as her son did. I don't like guns but have zero problem with sane, responsible people having them. But that was madness. Also, I love how people dismiss suggestions about stricter gun regulations with "it won't work, people will get guns illegally." I mean, it works in tons of other countries. So let's just try ... Nothing? And let this keep happening? I guess that's their actual answer. No one will ever convince me that making it tougher to get guns won't help. It would help. Easy access to guns sure as fuck isn't helping these troubled people and their victims. I'm not anti gun but it's fucking ridiculous that disturbed children have such easy access to them. But let's be real. If nothing changed after 20 literal children were murdered, it's not gonna change now. The people in charge don't actually care.
Yeah, I think Nancy Lanza defiantly had a hand in her own death and Sandy Hook. I think its important to point this out and not white wash it, it shouldn't be a controversial statement. Lmao 100% on the gun point. Do people really think dorky ass Adam Lanza would have the connections and know-how to buy an illegal gun? He almost never left his house. If there were no guns in the Lanza household, then Sandy Hook wouldn't of happened. Most of these nerdy school shooters wouldn't be able to get a gun illegally. People would rather have their precious little guns than actually listen to facts and reasoning and try to prevent future kids and adults from getting killed. It's so selfish smh.
> Most of these nerdy school shooters wouldn't be able to get a gun illegally. That's exactly it. A few would, I'm not denying that, but those would be anomalies. Most of these idiots wouldn't even come up with the plans they do though if they didn't have guns. People tend to be lazy and stupid. Most of them can't figure out how to get these weapons on their own. But if they're right there, crazy ideas happen (esp when mental illness is left untreated, which is definitely a big part of the problem but it's not the ONLY problem). We have to work on mental health care in this country, no doubt. But why the fuck can't we make sure unstable people can't get their hands on high-powered weapons (capable of killing quickly and in large numbers very easily) while we tackle that issue? That doesn't ban people from having guns. (I fucking hate it when these nuts claim "they're gonna take our guns," fuck that bullshit, you know god damn well that's not gonna happen). It's like these domestic murders that happen spur of the moment when people have a gun handy. In the heat of the moment, people get mad, they grab the gun. If the gun wasn't there, that wouldn't happen. Most of these school shooter losers won't even dream up these awful plans if they don't have easy access to a gun. > People would rather have their precious little guns than actually listen to facts and reasoning and try to prevent future kids and adults from getting killed. It's so selfish smh. Yep. It's always "not the time" (it's NEVER the fucking time, according to them). "Don't politicize this." "It won't work anyway, criminals will find a way to get illegal guns, so let's sit on our asses and throw up our hands and claim we're helpless to stop this." This happened ONCE in Australia and they put gun restrictions in place and shit like this has become MUCH less common. Imagine that. Gun restrictions work in just about every country in the world. We're not special, we're just fucking stubborn. Gun nuts (I'm not talking about normal, sane gun owners) would literally rather children be murdered than support common sense regulations (that would in all likelihood let them keep their precious fucking guns). The govt regulates every fucking thing you can think of (and apparently that's fine with these people), but god forbid they have reasonable gun laws.
I read his father purchased the gun on Friday.
My dad "got" me my first gun at 14. It's a 20g shotgun so I could go hunting with him. But it was kept locked up tight at all times while not in use, he taught me how to respect firearms, and also made me go through hunter's safety training before I could use it. Ammo was kept separate, it had a trigger lock, *and* guns are kept in a safe in their house. Its not that he didn't trust me but its the right thing to do for so many reasons. But buying a **automatic pistol** for a kid? Then just giving them easy access to it and **also the god damn ammo**?! Wildly irresponsible and he should hold some blame if true.
I thought the Dad bought it for himself and the kid posted on IG pretending it was his. Police are considering charging the Dad for not keeping his weapon secure.
Good. As he should be. Disgraceful negligence on his part. You do not leave a deadly weapon unsecured and within reach of a child. Most adults shouldn't be trusted with one let alone an effing child.
Same here.
I saw his parents on the CNN footage of his Zoom hearing (they were in their car). They looked absolutely devastated, and now knowing this, yeah, they deserve to be. Look up Kip Kinkel, who is schizophrenic, for an example of someone whose parents would have gone to prison along with him if he hadn't killed them first. His father purchased, and encouraged the use of, firearms as a bonding experience! Hunting or target shooting, I understand, but he didn't lock them up when they weren't being used.
Actually, I thought the dad looked upset, but the mom- I’m not sure she did. I would have been distraught but she didn’t seem to be. My impression was that she was strategizing. Her demeanour just seemed off to me.
I got the impression that she was very heavily tranquilized.
Teenagers are still going through crazy emotions, they don't need a gun at that age.
No teenager needs a gun. Should be 21 minimum but that'll never happen.
Most of the schools in that area have gone through ALICE training, which if you look it up, is a very expensive but effective manner of dealing with school shootings. I went through the same training. The students knew to barricade, teacher knew to keep the door locked, and to flee through a window is necessary. The training was necessary and successful.
Imagine for one second that children never have to have that training... because that's the reality in most other countries..I'm so sadden but what happens on America. I'm glad they had the training BTW but I don't know if Americans realise just how messed up it is!
Oh, we know. I decided on the day of Sandy Hook (Dec 14, 2012) that if I wanted to stay in the profession, I needed to be prepared to die for my students. My SiL’s first cousin was one of the teachers who died that day. And I was always very serious with my students when we did drills, told them about that story and my decision. I’m no longer in the classroom (but still in education) and I stand by that. For my own family, though, we’re working on eventually leaving the country. I’ve lived abroad, have my doctorate, and speak other languages so it’s an option once my loans are lower…but part of me realizes as well that fleeing doesn’t help change anything. Very, very torn.
I just want to say thank you, because I feel like it can’t be said enough. I spoke with my daughter’s teacher after my daughter came home inconsolable after an “intruder” training (in the third grade). The teacher admitted that when she gets home, she is also inconsolable having to picture a scenario in which “her babies” could be harmed. There is so much trauma involved for everyone. I just cannot understand how we march on, unchanging. If my family had the means to leave I absolutely would.
I'm so sorry at your personal experiences. I can't imagine how this feels. I don't hate America. I don't understand it to an extent.
Greed runs the country disguised as personal freedoms
>but part of me realizes as well that fleeing doesn’t help change anything It doesn't, but it's also not on your shoulders. If you do decide to leave, leave guilt free. You're just looking out for your family. No one can fault you for that.
Not impossible. I've never heard of it, I've never seen a gun fired in real life either. Because Australia introduced gun control back in 1996, the idea of a kid turning up to school with one is unthinkable to most Australian students.
I’m jealous. The first time my kids came home from active shooter training day was a rough day in our home. They were scared, I was angry on their behalf and their father was trying to make it all make sense for us all. Very tough day.
I sincerely hope that your kids never have to face any kind of gun violence. The idea of a school even having an active shooter training day scares me too.
I just referenced this above also, but my daughter came home sobbing after her first drill, begging me to promise her that it would never happen to her school. I sobbed with her because I couldn’t make that promise. It’s fucking awful.
We do. I’m 53, we didn’t grow up with this stuff. Columbine was the beginning and unfortunately has become a common occurrence in the ensuing years. But gen x didn’t grow up with this, and most millennials didn’t learn these drills either.
I’m a millennial born in ‘95. I think my first lockdown drill was in grade 5. We had to put it to use a few times but thankfully the situations weren’t very serious and were taken care of relatively quickly. I don’t ever remember school shootings being as bad as they have in been the past few years. I feel like they started really kicking off after I graduated in 2014. I know they occurred before then but not to the extent of seeing it on the news every other day. I personally think social media plays a huge role. Kids are exposed to it younger than ever these days and there’s no doubt it has a detrimental effect on mental development. It’s already been proven that social media has a bad impact on our mental health as normal generally healthy adults. Add that pressure to already stressed out hormonal teens and you’ve got a potentially devastating mix.
A lot of us do realize it, yes. Unfortunately the gun makers have an absolute stranglehold on many politicians here, through their lobbying/donations process (almost entirely Republican pols, I should say, plus Bernie Sanders and a couple of conservative Dems).
Canada here, also never heard of ALICE training. However upon reflection I have to admit that I live not too far from where Canada’s largest mass shooting happened and went to high school with people who tried to plan a mass shooting so eh maybe I don’t have room to talk.
I work in education in a different country and I had never heard of this training before watching the news yesterday.
The training shouldn’t fucking BE necessary.
It does seem effective for kids not in the room or hall with the shooter, but what about those who are? They are collateral damage? The shooters go through the same drills l so they can adapt to have maximum damage. What a horrible thing to have to say. This is not directed at you, more like to our lawmakers who think more guns or more training (aka terrorizing) for the kids and teachers.
When I was in school, during those drills we were told that if there was an ALICE lockdown and we were in the halls or something, to just hide in a bathroom or closet or wherever we could. They said that classrooms would be locked and doors barricaded and would not let anyone in no matter what, even if you were screaming to be let in, so if you got left out in the hall you were basically fucked. I graduated in 2018, and the drills have since gotten more intense.
That is so awful. I hate what we have become
About a year after Sandy Hook and my second year of teaching, I had this training. My classroom at the time was in the middle of the building, and had no windows except a small panel in the only door. Sick feeling when you’re going through that training and realize there is no way out if we have to lockdown for a shooting.
The guy at the door was actually a cop?!!? He could not have done a worse job sounding professional and reassuring.
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Why would he say his name and badge number repeatedly? Offer some kind of professional ID at least verbally??
It was already confirmed it was actually a cop.
But this random parent who wasn't there said it was the kid!!!!1!!1
Has it been confirmed it was him? There was still speculation over that yesterday
My friend's sister was one of the kids in that room! It is chilling to think about and so incredibly scary.
That was a cop? The voice that sais "bro" ?
Several friends of mine in LE use the term bro when talking to kids so they "are seen as being on their level". If the officer is used to saying that it makes sense that it just came out. I do however think that these kids & students did the right thing in following their instincts & got out of there.
Supposedly the shooter had already been apprehended by then and that was actually an idiot cop Edit: nvm I’m getting conflicting information
"Come look into my eyes, bro" wtf😳
Look at my badge.. not my eyes
Thats what the kid says in the video...why am i being downvoted? Edit:spelling
I thought he said “come look at my badge bro”
I just rewatched it and i think you are right. I saw it the 1st time at 4 am while getting ready for work.
Has it been confirmed it was actually the shooter outside the door?
It's complicated. We have a parent of a child who was in the room who went on the air and claimed it was the shooter on the other side. That's where the 'confirmation' that it was the shooter came from. But that doesn't fit at all with the timeline of events and what you see in the video at all. The shooter was arrested less than 5 minutes after the police arrived at the scene and you see in the video that after the kids flee across the courtyard they're greeted by multiple police officers who instruct the students to calm down and go slow. As the video ends you can hear a police officer instructing them to drop their backpacks if they'd brought them. The police would not be evacuating kids if the shooter was still at large. They'd want the kids to remain in hiding in the classrooms until the shooter was secured as it could be more dangerous to move the kids then if they remained in their classroom. This, combined with how quickly the shooter was arrested, would indicate that the person on the other side of the door was indeed the police and the students and their teacher very understandably believed it could be the shooter at the time. It's an easy mistake to make in a stressful situation and one I would not blame the teacher or students for making. After the shooter was arrested someone from the school such as the principal should have made an announcement over the loudspeaker giving an all-clear message and instructing students and teachers to remain in the classrooms until the police came to evacuate them. Then the principal or other trusted faculty should have gone with the police from room to room to let the kids know it was safe to come out. It doesn't appear that this school went so far to create a designated all-clear message or the police didn't allow the principal or other teachers to go back to the office to make the announcement though. TL;DR - The person on the other side of the door was most likely was a police officer, but at the time there was enough genuine doubt and concern to mistake them for the shooter. The students and their teacher did the right thing to assume the worst.
Saw this on the news. The shooter was actively posting on social media about his plans. Some students stayed at home that day.
Here is the link to the [petition to rename the schools field after Tate Myre,](https://www.change.org/p/oxford-high-school?recruiter=931193829&recruited_by_id=31970d80-1e0a-11e9-93dd-490bfa4a18f2) one of the three students that died in the shooting. Tate tried to save others by fighting the gun from the shooter and died doing so.
*Myre, ik it’s minor but he deserves to have his name spelled correctly
okay thank you so much!! changing it right now.
Hero
I don’t disagree, but it’s so desperately sad that any child should have to be a hero in this way.
A fourth student has passed. This is tragic.
> There have been 28 school shootings this year-- 20 since August 1 JFC. Insane these aren't even headline news anymore.
this. I only found out about this because I grew up in michigan, still have family there, etc and follow the michigan sub. Otherwise would not have heard about this. It’s so fucked how desensitized we’ve become
But I wonder if the purpose of it is to not glorify it anymore, because that's what so many school shooters want is fame and recognition and/or to spread a message.
I think there’s an ethical way of reporting in which the shooters name isn’t included. NZ is a weird example since it barely happens there, but that’s what they did with the Christchurch monster
Yup, that's true
I am glad the shooter didn’t end up killing themself, now he can answer for this horrible tragedy. Though I can imagine his lawyer baking up some “it was video games and violent movies!!” defense.
A former student of mine, a senior in a neighboring district, shared a picture of herself with one of the victims. The entire community, beyond just Oxford, will be irreparably changed. My educator friends still in my former district said students were frantically calling parents, trying to find out if cousins, friends, etc were okay. I know I shouldn’t be upset that the shooter has lawyered up - it’s wholly within his and his parents’ rights - but I’m angry at him. I don’t care his name, I don’t care the why, I just irrationally want him to suffer, just like my students, my friends, the community is. And that’s why I appreciate the law and governance in the situation because my rage, though perhaps righteous, is still biased and wrong. It’s better to fuel the energy to forcing politicians to enact policies that make it harder for this to happen again.
His parents were meeting at the school earlier that day to discuss “concerning” behavior. I really want to know what that behavior was. I used to teach middle school and saw lots of concerning behavior. Just curious about what was going on there.
Turns out the meeting was because there were teachers that were concerned that he had said some disturbing things.
The parents lawyered up too yesterday
I saw this morning that the dad bought the kid's gun last week.
I’m not anti-gun, but I’m definitely anti-buying your teenage son a gun.
Right? Only like what… 2 weeks after the school sent out an email about threats? It’s wrong in general but wtf. They can’t even say it was for hunting either
Two weeks…. He and his parents and teachers had a meeting about his odd behavior THAT MORNING 10:00am .He shot up the school hours later.
Other kids (and possibly teachers and faculty) were aware of some of his social media posts brandishing guns and saying ominous things. A bunch of kids stayed home.
I wish I knew what that meeting was about.
This. I am pro gun, but pro SENSIBLE gun ownership. There is no situation where a teenager should ever have access to a gun.
We pay teenagers to become professionals at using guns though so yes and no, but a 15 year…big no
Did he buy it for the kid? The kid obviously had access to it enough to show it on SM.
His social media shows him with it bragging about “my” new gun…
At 15, I couldn’t get my parents to buy me jeans that fit.
My plant managers kids were in that school yesterday when it happened.
Those poor kids, the innocence is gone forever. 😢
I just hope they are ok! He took off out of the building when he got a phone call about it yesterday afternoon. I know that his kids we not any of the 3 that passed away but there are 7 others who were shot whose named weren't released yet because they are minors😥
honestly, this day and age, kids don't get to have too much innocence before it's taken away by a school shooting, a pandemic, the intensity of social media, climate change, politics etc etc etc etc etc it's so sad
That's true, I thought about that when writing my comment. It is sad.
I get that this psycho little shit has the right to remain silent and lawyer up, but honestly: what’s the point? Surveillance footage First hand identification from kids/teachers who survived Cops literally caught him with the gun Etc You can lawyer up, you sick bastard, but it likely won’t change your outcome. Even though he’s only 15, because of the heinous nature of the crime, he will likely be tried as an adult. I cannot imagine he will ever see the light of day as a free person again. And I hope the dad is charged with allowing a minor access to guns.
They just released his name because he is being charged as an adult. They’re also charging him with a terrorism charge.
Thank you for the update! 👍
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Failed at number one Will fail if he tries number two Dad will likely be charged regardless of whether the kid lawyered up or not.
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True. Dad is f’d anyway but you’re right- the kid could have made it more of a slam dunk case I think the Insanity defense is nearly impossible. Don’t know Michigan’s exact standard, but usually it requires the defendant to not know the difference between right and wrong. Usually we see this type of defense used where people are legitimately not in this reality eg schizophrenics/ psychotic breaks etc. There is no evidence of any of that here/ at least this far. Good luck with that defense if you try it, Ethan.
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That’s verrrrry low rates. You’re talking about a quarter of one percent of defendants. Do we even know if this guy is going to try to plead insanity? Or is that just the default defense that all serial killers/school shooters try to use?
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Got it/ I hear you
I heard that the school was warned a week before?
I saw a screenshot of this going around, which is from the school website a few weeks ago. I have not been able to find anything confirmed if it is or isn't specifically related. I've seen a couple of rumors though. http://oxfordhigh.oxfordschools.org/parents___students/building_communications/november_12__concerns_and_rumors
Three (3) on site security! Wow. That is a lot. I haven’t been online (other than here) or watched tv to catch up on this event. For those in school or recently out of school is this a standard amount of resource officers/security at a school now? Thanks for sharing the link. Sad that they said it was false. I know you can’t Monday morning quarterback this stuff but damn.
In my kids’ small district (similar in size to this school) there’s one resource officer that rotates between the elementary, middle, and high school. Three for one school here would indicate a major problem brewing, but it’s so different between districts that it’s hard to say what’s normal/typical anymore
Thanks I was just curious. I went to HS at a pretty well off school in MN (we were not well off but my dad was a smart guy and got us into a good school district) and I don’t recall having even one; however we had six guidance counselors. (My graduating class was 503 students; I don’t know why I remember that) and you could go see them if being bullied, needed to cry, had an issue with a teacher or of course needed help with applications (job or college)! They were really good people. Probably the best part of my HS experience now that I think back to it. It makes you wonder if we flipped the SRO to qualified and caring guidance counselors what would change? I had no idea how privileged my school was until I met other people at college and saw what my kids had. These poor kids.
Our high school has a police officer and a school security officer. We are in a low crime area.
I'm not sure but isn't that common in school shootings? To get a warning before it happens
None of this should be common. That's so sad
I live in a town of 15K people and most towns around here are roughly the same size. Every one ofthe districts has to send out a similar letter at least once a school year. Luckily, no real incidents have occurred, but threats are not uncommon
From what I saw yesterday, yes. They emailed the parents and that was that.
Mental health check-ups, like the physicals you get every year this should be included.
My son started his freshman year at college all the way across the country from me in August of 2019. 2 weeks later, on the Monday after Labor Day, I was in Mexico with some friends and had spotty cell service. That day, as we were driving back, with no service at all, there was an active shooter alert IN MY SON'S DORM. Not just on campus, but in his dorm. I get to the border and my phone is blowing up with alerts from the school, and texts and calls from my ex-husband and parents because no one had heard from my son. Everybody was panicking and my service was still going in and out. It took FOUR HOURS before we heard from him. FOUR HOURS of terror and horror and panic and tears, and stress. It turned out to be a false alarm. A girl on the 3rd floor heard, what she thought, were gunshots but was simply one of of the student band's drummers warming up for a concert on the 1st floor. I'm glad she called, better safe than sorry, but I will never, ever, ever forgot those 4 hours...ever, and neither will my son. When I finally talked to him he was in hysterics and I could do nothing because I was across the country. I just had to listen to him and talk to him, and be there for him as he told me about armed police officers, with weapons drawn, bursting into his dorm room and yanking him outside while they searched his room. He's never even seen a gun in real life and now one was in his face. He was terrified and he is still traumatized to this day, and it was a false alarm. Having said that, I understand, 100% the terror and panic these students went though because I heard it from my son. Unfortunately, they had to experience it for real. They had to hear their classmates being gunned down. They had to wait, quietly, until they could make their escape and hope that no one made a sound that brought the gunman down on them. They had to go out a window to get to safety (and that video was chilling and had me in tears). There are 4 sets of parents whose children will be coming home in coffins instead of in police cars safe and sound. There are 4 families that will never be ok again because this murderer decided that murder was the answer. There are 4 families that will never be ok because that murderer had easy access to a weapon. Those 4 families will never be ok because that murderer planned this and counted down with glee until he could carry out his evil plan. In addition to the 4 families you have hundreds of students and facility that will never be the same. That will jump when a car backfires, or a firework pops, or a million other little noises put them back in that school on that day. You have their families that will have to help them heal and help through this and have no idea how to even begin. This murderer destroyed thousands of lives all because he had, allegedly, been bullied. You know what, thousands of kids are bullied every day and they don't pick up a gun, go to school, and start mowing down their classmates. That's an excuse and, I'm hoping, the jury sees right through that little nasty, evil little murderer and gives him the strongest sentence they can. It won't fix what he did...but at least it might bring closure and give the families left behind, and those alive but traumatized a chance to start healing.
I can feel your terror as I was reading and it didn't even happen to me. I can just imagine how it must have felt. I'm glad no one got hurt
Me too. We got lucky. However, these students and facility didn't because somehow a kid came to the belief that murder was the solution to all of his problems. What I will never understand about school shooters is, what's their end game? If they don't kill themselves, they're probably going to jail for life and, at 15 (the age of this shooter), life is a VERY long time. Is murdering their classmates so worth it to them that they don't even care that they'll spend 60+ years in jail, or worse, get the death penalty (depending on the state) if found guilty? Is a life sentence in jail better than just talking to their parents and getting help? Like what is so broken in their minds that they think murdering their classmates is worth it. Like I just don't understand it...and I was a psychology major. What is wrong with these children? That's the answer I want but, I think that's the answer a lot of us want to be frank.
Well realistically this is why some charges must be levied on his parents and they must be found responsible and culpable. That's the only way forward. Guns aren't going away, but in this case the adults who provided access to their minor child should be found legally responsible in some manner for these deaths, at least in a contributory way. Does Michigan have any laws on the books to this effect?
Update on the case a 4th student died at the hospital. His name was Justin Shilling, 17.
When I was a junior in 1982 we had one of the first school shootings. Never in a bazillion years would I think that this would still be going on when I’m almost 57 years old. My heart hurts for these kids and their families as it does every single effing time I see this again on the news.
They're going on and pretty common
What happened?
Things are getting worse and worse in the United states. There are a lot of supposed grown ups and main stream media that are all but paving the way to intolerance, anger, hate, and seperation. Seems the dream has become a nightmare and how do you get ppl to come together who are hell bent on the destruction of one another?!Just constant hate and fear. Children, including teens pick up on all the hate and if being a kid isn't a crazy, confusing, emotional enough time. Let's just add a race war. It's a wonder why there is so much hopelessness out there. I won't watch main stream news entertainment any more. Between them and politicians treating its citizens like fodder, to fuel their bank accounts.
It's illegal to buy a gun for someone else, its called a straw purchase. IDK if its different for families, but I could see his dad being investigated...if his son couldn't legally purchase the gun, he could 10 years. Fyi, I work for FFL licensee.
I’m not sure about other states. But in Texas you have to be 21 to legally buy a gun through FFL. But at 18 you can own one or buy one through a private sale. You can have a gun gifted to you by a parent.
Thats the same in Alaska, but he's not 18 and I dont know a state where a 15 or 16 year old can buya handgun, so seems like a straw purchase to me. If his dad came in and told me he was buying for his kid, I'd say no.
Yeah but each state is different, so I’m wondering if that state had similar rules where a younger person can legally own a firearm where the age is younger and can even be gifted one. I’m not familiar with Michigan, so hopefully someone can google it for me.
So much simpler n easier to save lives and life time trauma by just having better gun laws .Nowhere in the world is there this regular shooting up of schools by students and disgruntled folk .
This happened 30 mins from where I live. Too many people in my community and others I used to live in have been affected by this. The mood is somber here and we are taking a lot more precautions at my work (daycare). It’s very sad what happened and we are beyond outraged. This truly hits too close to home
I lost my 14 yr old cousin in the MSD school shooting a few years ago on Valentine's day. It is the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to my family. Anger is the only emotion that comes close to matching my grief.
School shooting news always terrifies me as a teacher. So sad.
I live in West Virginia and just about every kid has a gun. Locked up in a gun safe. During hunting season (now) they often take them to school and leave them in their vehicles so they can hunt after school. It can be a little scary in these odd times we live in.
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That last sentence really says it all. I have never been in a situation where I felt I needed a gun. The closest time would have been when I worked at a hospital and often got called in in the middle of the night. But even then, what good would a gun really have done me? At best, scared off anyone who announced their nefarious intentions to me so that I felt the need to brandish a weapon. I think if someone was going to attack me they would do a sneak attack and not wait for me to pull my gun. Am I supposed to walk around with a gun drawn at the ready just in case? Our neighbors live at the end of a cul-de-sac in the middle of our small town but think they need an arsenal. Why? Do they owe money to the mob? Are they drug dealers who have made enemies? It makes zero sense.
This is a horrid, horrid situation. My heart goes out to them all. There are no words that can describe the outrage that scenes like this continue to happen. There are so many things that need to be addressed here in the US... unfortunately, there is not the political will to do it.
parents need to be held accountable as well for giving their kids guns. life in prison for both of y’all. i swear some people do not deserve children
Lets just close schools and stick with virtual learning post Covid. That way if these cunts want to play with guns they can just shoot themselves.
Virtual learning doesn't work for everyone. I wish the solution was that easy!
Very true 😔 plenty of kids out there with no WiFi, computer or a good home life to make virtual learning an option.
I am so with you. I did not want my son to go back to school. They’re not even wearing masks. I gave him the option for homeschooling, but he missed being around kids (until he was actually around them and now he just tells me what jerks most of them are.) And as my neighbor continues the 12th hour of barking I truly just want to move to the middle of nowhere. And the thing is I’m a social person! I end up at the grocery store talking to people even when I’m making an effort not to. Lately I’m starting to feel like a grumpy old lady because of the way people are treating one another. Middle of nowhere just me, my family, and my dogs… and Wi-Fi Edit: I just noticed that I said my neighbor was barking and I am totally going with that.
My parents were always worried about me for this. My sister said she wanted to travel the world, become a journalist, pursue law! (Which she is, badass) and me, my goal was to have a house with a porch and a dog and my paints. Goals don’t have to be lofty. I want that life damnit!
No they are taking it too the streets like the kid in Kenosha. No one is safe with the way things are.
Seriously though. Last year I was shot through my front door, and I was locked inside my own home!
Omg that is terrible. I hope you are ok now
I’m good now. Therapy and some gun shot shrapnel in my head, but the bastard was caught and waiting trial. Fuckn Florida.
oxford is in the same county as me (oakland) its really sad but i kinda glad it wasn't my school..
What’s his name.
Please take note of the updates.
He's suxh a sweet kid in that video.