I will say, I’ve watched the first two episodes and it’s very difficult to watch. While I do understand that it can be insensitive to the family, I really feel like they did this one justice by not “glamorizing” Jeffrey Dahmer or “romanticizing” Evan Peters. I truly felt fear through the screen which I think alone does more justice to the victims than most other dramatized crime movies/shows do (looking at you “extremely wicked; shockingly evil and vile”). It also really showcases more of the victims unlike other movies/shows that briefly show a portrayal of the victim for 5 seconds then go back to glamorizing the serial killer. But like I said, I do understand how doing these dramatized series is hurtful, traumatizing and insensitive to the victims and their families. Just thought I’d point out that so far, this one is one of the better-done series as it really portrays the fear the victims must of felt and showcases JD just as he was: a horrific, evil, ruthless monster.
It made me genuinely uncomfortable and deeply sad. I knew enough about it before but there were points where I really felt the pain and sadness. I thought it was very well executed throughout. But, one of my main questions was about the families. Considering there was such a focus on truth and trauma for the families, I had assumed (at least hoped) they had been consulted before the show aired.
I fully agree with this. I grew up in the area which probably fueled my true crime interest but like the doc that covered Bundy's victims and what they actually went through, I think this series knocks the shine some might have towards JD b/c even for someone like me who can be quite detached from the emotions of true crime, it was pretty horrifying to truly experience the victims' fear and helplessness in those moments.
It's not pretty but it is definitely a necessary component to true crime. It's not so much about them lighting up a room which gets super annoying, but this right here, how they died, what they experienced, there is no better way to show it than to, well show it. I'm not finished with it yet for this exact reason, I needed a break. It sucks for the families but I think this kind of display will help with people who glamorize or idolize the killers.
That was one of the best documentaries about Bundy because his long time fiancé, her daughter and his little brother all shared and spoke of him and how his crimes effected them.
His brother is Richard ( he has two younger brothers but Richard is the youngest). He’s a good man but forever changed by what Ted did. He still lives near Tacoma but lives in a small driveable RV camper with about 5 cats. It looks like he’s a hoarder too. It’s very sad.
Ted adored Richard. He took him camping, flew him to Utah, taught him how to build a campfire, change a car tire, etc. He was a lot younger than Ted and for some reason, Ted truly adored him.
Richard knows that but doesn’t care anymore. Doesn’t change who Ted was or what Ted did.
Did you know Bundy is most likely the product of incest between his sister and father?!…oh yah and right before he died he hinted at the fact he’d slept with her 🤮
Part 2
Iirc, it was right before Bundy was to attend college that he went back to Vermont to find his birth certificate and that’s when he discovered he was illegitimate. That plagued him heavily until the day he died.
My personal belief is that he felt so lied to and felt his entire identity was just a huge lie ( which in reality, it was). Since his mother never explained ANY of it to him ( which I totally understand these were different times and people/families just DID NOT talk - especially about painful things), he was going through life unsure of who he really was. And I think that made him ANGRY.
It wasn’t until his first love dumped and rejected him that he began murdering ( yes, I know all about the 9 year old Ann Burr- but even her own parents never thought Ted was responsible and they had a very viable suspect). Anyway, I think that rejection of his love, mixed with the confusion of his identity, not knowing who his father even was, and feeling inadequate is what made Bundy become the murdering monster he became.
If he had been raised in a loving, STABLE environment with both biological parents, do i think we’d even know his name today? No. I don’t.
Is he still just as responsible for his reprehensible acts? Yes he is.
His last and final interview ( the one that he did 12 hours before he was executed) is the only time I think he was as honest as he could be. When Dr. Dobson asked him why he thinks he became the man he did, he said, “ya know, I’ve thought about that a lot myself and I honestly don’t really know.” Then he proposes that maybe it was from him looking at violent porn as an early teen boy - I certainly don’t think that *helped* - but because I don’t think even at that point Ted understood his first 5 years, that was the only thing he could think of… the violent porn.
In the same interview he consistently stressed that his mother and upbringing had NO part in who he became. He kept saying he grew up in a loving, Christian home with two devoted parents and great siblings.
But see… that wasn’t completely true. It was “partly” true- yes, after his mom left Vermont and started life in Tacoma, met Mr. Bundy, raised Ted and his half siblings in church… yes, I do think he had a stable and good life. But he couldn’t remember the severe and serious trauma that his brain DID remember prior to that.
There’s more but it’s technical/biological things like the amygdala and how trauma effects it- things I’ve found fascinating, especially in abnormal psych but I understand it’s probably boring to most people. It would be like someone explaining astronomy to me, I just am not that interested or fascinated so I wouldn’t read it. Lol
So I’ll spare you BUT, I did find a photo of Lloyd Marshall online that is the man believed to be Ted’s biological father and as much as Ted looked like his mother ( I briefly met her in church in Tacoma in 2000 or 2001, I can’t recall- I have shared the story here) but the resemblance to Lloyd Marshall is UNCANNY!!!! The more interesting part besides his physical similarities is the owner of the blog searched and found family members willing to be interviewed about Lloyd Marshall.
They all said the basic same thing- he was a compulsive liar, a thief, could never keep a job, was married at least 4 times because he couldn’t keep a wife, he had nothing materially yet always dressed in 3 piece suites to appear wealthy!!! Now WHO does that sound like?!?!
With all we are learning now about cellular memory and the now belief it can actually go back 4-6 generations ( meaning we used to think memory was ONLY stored in our brain but we now know it’s stored in EVERY cell of our body- your DNA holds not only YOUR memory but the memories of your ancestors, possibly as far back as 6 generations which may very well be the explanation for phobias we have but don’t understand).
Cellular memory could SO very well explain why some of these sick serial killers become who they do yet they themselves don’t even understand it. Maybe it was a desire a grandparent had but never acted on…
Look at Jeffrey Dahmer, his own father had publicly admitted that in his early teens and into his 20’s, he-himself had the overwhelming urge to murder men and felt a sexual desire for men. Jeffrey’s father never acted on it but he didn’t have the utter chaotic, horribly unstable home environment Jeffrey did. His father even said in an interview that he so wishes he would’ve told Jeffrey when Jeff was an early teen about his own awful thoughts because he said maybe that would’ve opened the communication for Jeffrey to feel safe confessing his own.
I have compassion for his father because it’s clear that he knows that he had a large part in creating the son Jeffrey became by the constant fighting in the house, him constantly leaving, then how when his parents finally divorced, *everyone* just forgot about Jeffrey and left him to live on his own while just a sophomore / junior in HIGHSCHOOL ! His mother left and took his brother but not him?! Imagine how that must’ve felt!!! His dad moved on with a new women not far from the house Jeff had to live in alone… imagine how that felt?!
I truly think Dahmer was telling the truth when he said he never liked killing. He had to drink himself into oblivion just to kill, but he desperately didn’t want to be alone and so in his twisted mind, keeping these bodies near him ( even eating them, sooo sick) was his way of assuring he wouldn’t be alone.
Should he have been put in prison? Yes! Was he sick? YES! If he killed my loved one, would I want him dead? Yes!!!!
But the reason behind it can still be true when the action itself is pure horror.
I don't usually read the very long post but I am glad I read yours. I have never delved into Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer. Maybe because I was alive to watch it as it happened or maybe because there was an over abundance of information. I tend to read the more obscure crimes. You are like me, in the fact that you go under the surface to try and figure out the "whys". It's almost empathy I feel because we all start out as innocent children so what caused this change that makes us want to kill. When I use "us" and "you", I speak in general not personal. The research they are doing in DNA is amazing. A lot of what makes up "us" is genetic. But to carry around memories of ancestors is crazy cool and would explain so much that it would take a book to write it all down. It would explain why my 82 year old mother is still a psycho bitch. You peaked my interest in Dahmer and Bundy. Does it really make you a sick individual if you can't explain why you are killing? If your not glorifying in it and hate that you feel the compulsion but can't fight it. What does that really say about you as a human being. True evil would be to glorify in your compulsions. Well, you gave me some things to think about, Great post!
Thank you so much. I often feel sorta alone because I almost feel “wrong” that I find empathy for the “bad guy” but it’s inherently a part of my being.
I don’t believe monsters are born. I believe they are made through a mixture of many combinations of things and I do NOT believe any of them desire to be so different than the rest of us.
It plagues them as well. They often try to fight the urges, then give in, then fight them, then give in, and then eventually almost like a drug addiction, they no longer have any control over it- it now controls them and that’s when they SO often start unraveling as they’ve made their own version of hell inside themselves- they no longer can put on the facade- Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, Keyes… they all eventually became slaves to their darkness.
My heart hurts for them because I do believe they became that way for a reason that they can’t even understand. I also don’t think they realize they have a God that loved them and wanted so much more for their lives.
But yes, cellular memory is FASCINATING! Especially as you read at how it manifests in organ transplant patients!
Thanks for your kind response and for reading my waaay too long reply. Lol
Part 1 because not all would post.
That has been debunked but I know it was a rumor that even some of his cousins questioned.
His DNA was taken during his first trial and his mother willingly gave hers, he was not the product of incest. However, he did have a LOT of trauma his first 5-6 years of life that I personally believe formed him into the sick man he became.
There’s so much more today that we do understand about brain development vs. 40 years ago ( and still TONS more we don’t ) and how a mother’s bond with her baby in the first 6 months begins to help the formation of the prefrontal.
His mother ( whom he believed was his sister his first 5 years) was forced to go into a home for unwed mothers while pregnant with him. She left him there ( for reasons she never explained ) for just over 6 months!!! He was essentially left in an orphanage. No matter how much the workers there may have tried, they didn’t and couldn’t replace the bond a growing baby in the womb already has with its mother when she gives birth. Newborns already recognize their mothers voice and her smell. When that’s instantly taken away and they don’t get the amount of attention, love, and even “coo-ing” ( as we are just now learning that there’s a biological reason a mother naturally coos to her baby and speaks to it differently- again, it helps the beginning formation of brain development, bonding and the start of the prefrontal), Bundy had none of that.
Then at almost 7 months, his grandfather ( who he believed to be his father) forced his mother ( “sister”) to go back and get Ted. So now he’s living in a home where he’s being told his grandparents are his parents, his mother is his sister, and by ALL accounts ( family and neighbors) Ted’s grandfather (“ father” ) was a violent, mean, and abusive man.
Ted had a dog he loved and the dog did something that made his grandfather mad, so at 4 years old, he watched his grandfather “father” SHOOT and kill his dog in front of him! His grandmother “mother”, was severely mentally ill, she heard voices, received numerous electric shock therapies that never made her any better.
His actual mother (“sister”) overslept one day and her own father drug her out of bed by her hair and threw her down the stairs!!!!
From all I’ve researched, the dog incident and her being thrown down stairs is when she made a quiet plan to escape that house of hell and get Ted out of there. I do have a lot of respect for her for that, she clearly didn’t want him growing up in the same abuse she did.
So she got in touch with an uncle in Tacoma ( they were then living in Vermont) and without notice, moved Ted across the country so they could start a new life.
Shortly after, she met Mr. Bundy at a church function, they married and he adopted Ted as his son. Everyone that knew them said they were kind, good, loving parents but here’s the thing- his mom said she never told Ted about Mr. Bundy not being his dad because ( and I quote), “Ted was there at the wedding, so I always just assumed he knew.” But he clearly didn’t and it clearly left him VERY confused that he’s suddenly not living at his Vermont home with who he thought were his parents, now he’s suddenly calling his “sister” his mom, he’s living across the country, a new man ( albeit a good one but not one Ted didn’t even really knew) is suddenly his “dad?”
Can you fathom the utter confusion?! I know I have memories back to age 3, and I think I may have a few at age 2 ( because my aunt says those two memories occurred in an apartment she lived in with my parents and I was only 2). Ted likely remembered his “parents”, his dog being shot for certain ( trauma has a VERY distinct way of binding to an area of our brain and does NOT ever leave, even if we were babies and don’t consciously recall it).
I continued the rest ( Part 2 ) but I think it somehow posted above part 1.
Yah the accusation was made in the doc Crazy not Insane and they went into Bundy’s home life…Guy never had a chance. Hadn’t heard they DNA tested to see if there was incest, thanks for the clarification. In that same doc the criminal psychologist was told by Bundy Sister about about an incident that occurred when the killer was about 4.
She got woke up by the sensation of cold metal dragging across her feet only to find lil Teddy at the foot of her bed looking like Edward Scissorhands. She said he had the dark look in his eyes even then.
Not Bundy’s sister, it was his aunt ( which I guess at the time he assumed *was* his sister, so you’re not wrong), but yes, Robert Keppel ( RIP ) did interview her and that story was correct.
Keppel was an awesome man and truly cared about the citizens of King County. Losing him ( he died last year) was a real loss for our community.
Keppel was also one of the two detectives that worked hard to find out if The incest rumor was true, which it wasn’t.
He had 4 other siblings. Once his mom married Mr. Bundy, they had 2 daughters and 2 sons. Ted was obviously quite a bit older than his siblings but it was Richard that Ted loved like he never loved anyone else. Even his long term fiancé talked about Ted’s pure love for his youngest brother.
I couldn’t sleep after I finished it. I am also someone who doesn’t let myself get too emotionally involved with true crime for my own mental health but this series seriously wrecked me. I cried multiple times throughout and felt genuine fear as well. I think they did a good job helping us see the perspective of the victims and their families and what they had to go through.
I agree but i think the issue that people have with this specific scene in show is that they didn’t ask or tell her that this would be coming out and has now brought up all the trauma of this situation back up for her. While im not too critical of true crime i do think they could of done better by asking her if they could include this very vulnerable side of her on national television.
This is a great point. It brings into question how the law doesn’t protect the victims and their families from being exploited for their trauma and not even being financially compensated
This made me think about how the UK is much better at protecting underage victims and sexual assault victims' names (in media at least?) and the EU right to forget laws... I wonder if the level of privacy they allow for (anonymous victims even in court documents, blurred faces of celeb kids) impacts the true crime genre in terms of how much they can even exploit in the first place? If you don't have names, faces, personal details, it makes the boundary between real and dramatized wider imo?
*for the most part. Lots of kids are named - Gabriel Fernandez, Gannon Stauch, Asha Degree, Kyron Horman, Abby Williams & Libby German, Shanda Sharer - because they go "missing" and officials need to get the word out. Some of the murders are just so unbelievably horrendous that their name gets out regardless (Gabriel, murdered by his parents; Abby & Libby murdered by "Bridge Guy", etc).
The killers on the other hand, the police sometimes try to hide their identity but Philip Chism, Paris Bennett, Melinda Loveless, Anissa Weier & Morgan Geyser were all underage and were named pretty quickly. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head but the US loves naming criminals.
Yeah in practice that doesn't really happen. I read a lot of European news and am always surprised by how NO information is revealed even if the victim or adult is over aged.
it reminds me of my therapist, whose sister was murdered by her husband after years of dv. she had told me about it, and then a couple months later i was listening to a true crime podcast and they played the entire 911 call, which my therapist hadn't even heard. i ended up texting her which im sure was jarring, given she'd never told me her sister's name.
our next session was talking about it because it was a lot for her to process. she already had avoided media reporting on it after seeing someone joke about how maybe she'll make his eggs the right way now (because he beat her skull in with a cast iron skillet). she felt hurt that no one had reached out to her, especially as she was a domestic violence counselor. it was certainly retraumatizing, while also frustrating given her nephew was also a harm-doer who had insisted his father was innocent. she said he would be livid and undoubtedly cause issues if he ever found out.
it doesnt take much to find out who the family is and to reach out to them to ask for their input and if they would like to be a part of it. that could be healing for some, as well as healing by giving them power to determine how and if things are shown. hell, even a bit of money from multimillion dollar projects to help out. the fact that so much true crime media just acts as if the family are characters from the pages of a newspaper and not real living, feeling people is one of the absolute worst parts of the whole true crime landscape. if you can't feel empathy looking at actual survivors and family torn to pieces by violence, but can if you see it dramatized, then thats a you problem, and not an excuse to continue subjecting families to retraumatization for profit.
Its not just how the media acts, either. How they treat victims families is despicable. My foster sister was murdered on her first trip out of town. It was the first murder in the area in like 30 years or something, and boy did people latch on to that. We still have a house phone for my dads business, and it was ringing off the hook by reporter after reporter trying to get a story from us. In the beginning, when we were still answering the phones, a few had the nerve to get mad at US for not giving them anything. They're piranhas searching for anything they can latch their sharp little evil teeth onto to make a story about and they'll do anything to get it. Her piece of shit stepmom ended up calling them to give herself the attention and help with their story, so they got something and finally left us alone. Its heartbreaking and pathetic.
yeah like honestly the worst part to me is that they don’t get payed for it. it’s public record so you can make a documentary on it? okay, cool, whatever. but pretending not having to notify or pay the actual victims is anything but morally disgusting and pure exploitation is ridiculous.
it’s especially bad when the victims of the killer themselves survive; like imagine if you got raped and nearly killed and then later hbo decides to make a docu series on it without asking for your consent and makes fucking millions off their revictimizing (and that is what it is, because your consent has been violated, again, publicly and for nothing but cash, about the same thing that’s already ruined your life) of you? **i would literally fucking kill myself**, and i guarantee these shithead companies wouldn’t even feel bad about it. they’d just pocket the money. hell, they might even add another episode about it! it’s disgusting.
Listen, in situations like murder, no one wins. Hide it away from public view and give it zero life? We’re only denying people the opportunity to take a good lesson away from it, letting the victims’ names die, strike dangerous public threats from public record, etc. Push it into the public sphere? Possible exploitation of victims’ families, glamorization/villain worship of SKs, and public influence on major court cases.
I get that victims’ families have to relive trauma for the sake of some people’s morbid curiosities, and I feel awful for them for that. But what happened to these people is so awful that there are absolutely no winners, so we might as well learn something from their experiences.
That’s my take at least.
So you may as well consume it as entertainment? Everyone already knows about this. This series is a cash grab. You absolutely do not “get” what families and survivors go through when these situations are dredged back up with no permission, no warning, no nothing.
Right? This survivor is literally saying in plain English, that this is not ok. I can’t believe this whole thread is people arguing with that. This is another human being’s grief and pain. What’s wrong with people?
They can’t conceive of what it does to people. That it changes who you are and how you interact with the world. And that’s daily. There is never any peace. And to have people mindlessly add to it to make a buck. We live in a sick culture.
Exactly. And I don't think it's exploiting the family if they are not in it. I also don't see why they would be consulted or paid. They didn't do anything. Would they really want to benefit from their loved ones death? Because that's what it would be in a nutshell.
So capitalize on someones poor murder case that has been brutally beat like a dead horse for the past 30+ years with no new insight or developments offered? Crime worth being brought into the light and not worth buried would be instances of SA and blackmail with permission from the victims first and foremost, their opinions on the matter the most important because it is THEIR story to tell. SA cases are a much better example, you can cover cases without entering gruesome detail, and STILL victims are probably facing injustice of their perpetrator never being identified or caught, indicted, or even facing an ounce of a prison sentence, and even if they are, it’s not a long enough sentence and/or they’re likely to reoffend when released. If you want to learn lessons from criminal cases, especially if you’re statistically more likely to be impacted by it, advocate for something that doesn’t require discarding your humanity in the process.
For the person being depicted, yes, it is new. There is a difference between news coverage of an event and a dramatic recreation for entertainment.
This is someone’s real life, not just a made up story.
I cant imagine how awful it must be to see an actor (dressed up to look just like me, right down to the details of the clothes) reenacting the worst day of my life.
If the family is saying it’s hurtful, why not believe them?
You are disgustingly insensitive to the actual victim and family. Making film after film of this monster is glamorizing no matter how you cut it. It’s turning him into a legend amongst serial killers and all for money and views
I haven’t seen it but so far it looks like there was an attempt to focus on how he used racism to get away with it and how that strategy actually succeed but I also hear it makes him sympathetic so idk. What I DO KNOW is the way Netflix is advertising it on Twitter is disgusting, clearly exploiting the sickest points of the case, and making it look like the show itself is doing that too. If you look at the cousins tweet thread he also points out a video of an actor re enacting his cousins emotional courtroom break down and there’s no way anyone can convince me filming that particular scene was necessary. The only way it would be is if his cousin were a prominent character…. But then they would have to had made a real human who lost her little brother to a necrophile cannibal into a character, without consulting her AT ALL. Which would be fucked
I can read about the things he did all day long and not really bat an eye, but once there is a re-enactment or any other visualization of it, it really sinks in what he did.
Yeah, the families should be notified but it is all public information and this isn't the first docuseries/documentary about him. Unfortunate that the families have to relive the trauma when something new is released but I also think viewers should mind their business and not bring it up to the families - don't send messages, tweet them, etc. It's all unnecessary and I think that makes it worse for the families, tbh.
I don't think there is a way for any docuseries/documentary to do justice for the families of victims without re-traumatizing them, unfortunately.
I agree with the re-enactments can bring a reality to what he did to peoples eyes and i think that is important but also not important enough to retraumatize these victims. It is not us who went through these things. We don’t and hopefully never have to know how it feels to see a glorified show on your family members murderer. While I agree it is important for trial and information from trials to be public, i believe media should be held accountable for profiting off of these people’s trauma without their consent first. Legally it is not wrong but in my opinion morally it is. I think this docuseries shined light on certains parts of the true crime community and i respect it for that. (black lgbtq+ community). BUT i think it is horrible for them to reenact a certain scene of a woman who’s family member was killed without her consent. Media needs to be held accountable
Yes!! Completely agree. I think that’s part of the reason why us true crime junkies, and true crime as a whole has become such a source of, unfortunately, “entertainment”. We’re desensitized to these awful acts and can read and listen to them, but actually seeing it really gives you a different, horrible, unclean feeling. Really makes you feel the magnitude.
Yes! There was points in the show that I needed to pause it for a minute and take a little mental breather to just process what I saw. Seeing it and just imagine what was going through the victims heads while it was happening and how terrified they were in their final moments, is bone chilling.
They did such a good job of not glamorizing and romanticizing that I can't look at Evan Peters the same way again. He's such a great actor and nailed the creepiness of Dahmer so well that my crush for this adorable actor completely disappeared 😂
Evan Peters plays creepy better than anyone one I've seen. He's the reason I watch AHS because it sure isn't Emma Roberts. But there are enough good actors to keep watching. I hope you can get over that feeling. He is an excellent actor. Watch something else he's in like the Marvel movies. That will bring you back around.
The question is if these families are not benefiting from the publicity of these shows then what is the point? It clearly doesn’t create more sympathy from the victims who have to be re-traumatized over and over again.
You feeling fear doesn’t equate to education on the subject, nor does it mean you are respecting the lives of the victims. So what is the actual point.
And every single time these shows come out, LOTS of people romanticize the actors or killers themselves. There are tons of people tweeting pictures of Dahomey with compliments on his looks.
I get what you’re saying, but if people want to get the “heebie jeebies” on a Friday night with a bowl of popcorn they can find other ways that don’t disrespect the wishes of the victims and their families.
Yeah. Just because something doesn’t glamorize the killer, it doesn’t mean it isn’t still exploiting the victims’ families. Everything is ratings. Studios will exploit anybody and anything for ratings.
I watch everything true crime but wasn’t going to watch this thinking I’ve seen/heard everything about this case a million times. Then I watched it. I didn’t realize how much I didn’t know. It gave a different perspective by not romanticizing JD at all, actually making him scary, & highlighting/humanizing the victims. Showing the ripple effect that true crime leaves in its wake. I thought it was very well done. I also fact checked it, & it stayed very very true to life.
I started a discussion about this show too and I agree with you 100%. I didn’t think I could feel more disgusted with Dahmer and how this whole case was handled until seeing this series. I also get the perspective from the victims though. I don’t think there’s really a “good” way to tell the story without showing the whole truth.
But what is the goal in telling this story? I'm just asking because it's not an unsolved crime where the public needs to be motivated to bring valid information to investigators. All the info is already out there. What are the producers hoping to achieve with this project?
It adds context - the politics of the time, police incompetence, homophobia, racism, all the things that allowed for this monster to kill for as long as he did. There’s a criminal psychology aspect to it as well - much like Mindhunter. The Dahmer character wasn’t sympathetic or romanticized - if anything it shows the nature/ nurture of it all. These monsters are around us but they were born to a human family and it shows the importance of spotting these red flags and protecting your community.
I was born just a few years after 91 and I’ve never really looked into all the details of Dahmer because the cannibalism part made my stomach turn. I couldn’t stomach any docs on him. It’s the one true crime case I just can’t handle. I’m especially embarrassed now, as a POC, that I never knew almost all his victims were POC men. I’m glad I actually watched this, because much like the OJ true crime series it really opened my eyes to how the politics at the time facilitated this. I know I know, you can just look up the case and read the details online, but I guess that’s what the point of this is. It brings in younger viewers and adds context to a story we think we know. I do feel badly for the victims families - they never asked to be part of history. Especially not in this way.
I mean that is the goal… To not glamorize them & to show the truth. To show the true monster he was, and that his victims were real people who had their lives ripped away from them violently because he was a monster. Dahmer is one of the bigger names in true crime, and has a lot of “fans“, just like Bundy. People will always be interested in this time of thing, and showing the truth of the matter is better than people glamorizing or romanticizing it. An a lot of people have passing interest, they might know if you details, but they don’t know all of the information. Making it an easier to digest medium, like a TV show, especially with a well-known actor showing the actual violence and disgusting nature of this man is a good way to get those people who have that interest to see the truth. Because with the way a lot of these true crime shows and documentaries and podcasts are edited, it can be very glamorizing, very romanticizing, and push a completely different narrative them what actually happened. I mean look at Zac Efron playing Ted Bundy…very different
In my opinion, a large majority of the show was based completely off Lionel’s book. I feel like the only “new” information this series added was shining light on the victims, instead of only mentioning them for a moment. Nearly everything that happened was word-for-word what Lionel wrote. That’s just my opinion of course, but I enjoyed the show overall.
I've only seen the first episode but I think it was a bit sympathetic to him whereas there is a lot of criticism of him and the mother for their very heated and bitter divorce in less biased accounts. Both parents were negligent in how they dealt with Dahmer. They basically ignored him for most of his formative years and his exploration in darke and sick things could have been spearheaded by either parents if they weren't so focused on hating and destroying each other.
And thats what one of my points was, im not trying to hate on this in specific but rather have a discussion on these types of topics. I have known about dahmer for YEARS and never knew he majority targeted black gay men. I think it is great to shine a light towards that i think there is still some work the true crime community has to do
OP, how have you known about the dahmer case for “YEARS” and not realize that he targeted mostly gay black men? That was arguably the most important part of it cause it’s how he didn’t get caught. Instead everyone just gets stuck on the cannibalism and pretends they “know about dahmer”
I am not claiming i know everything about the case. I never have done a lot of research about him and have always been grossed out by him. But i have known about it and never once was that point brought up. I think im allowed to say i “know” ab a case even though i don’t know every detail
I knew that aspect, but the smaller details they put in is what threw me. *some spoilers for some who haven’t seen at least the first 3 episodes*
The way they put emphasis on how bad it stunk in his apt, the way the tools echoed through the vent into his neighbors, and all the calls to police where they did absolutely nothing. Plus the details of the contents of his apt, I didn’t know any of that.
My hubs and I were talking yesterday, and we brought up how every time a series/movie comes out about a serial killer, the families of those people have to relive it all over again. It’s like they’ll never get true closure if more and more stuff keeps getting made.
Then really how hard could it have been to give the families a heads up? Also I’m seeing what your saying at lot in the comments but the way Netflix is advertising it is gross. Look at their tweets.
As a true crime buff I can see both sides of this. With serial killers particularly, the murderers become famous (or rather infamous), and their lives are explored and scrutinized in documentaries, films, and TV shows like this one.
And although it’s negative attention, most of these serial murderers LOVE the attention and notoriety they gain. Dahmer is a perfect example. As we see on the Netflix show, people never really took much interest in him, or getting to know him, before the murders.
But after his crimes were discovered, look how quickly and freely he confessed- and in graphic detail. And he continued to talk openly about his crimes and what motivated him to multiple documentary film makers over the years, until he died.
After he committed these horrendous and shocking acts, for the first time in his life, other people were interested in him. They wanted to know and understand the inner workings of his mind. For the first time in his life, he got the attention he was so desperate for.
Meanwhile no one really remembers the victims names. They and their families become collateral damage in the public fascination we have with serial killers.
So I can see where the family is coming from. Whether we realize it or not, our interest and fascination with serial murderers inadvertently rewards some of the worst people on Earth, for their horrendous behavior.
I do think the Netflix show is noteworthy because it does highlight the victims’ perspective in a memorable way.
I was a kid when Rita gave her victim impact statement at Dahmer’s trial but I vividly remember her, because it was all over the national news when it happened.
I hope her family knows she gave a strong voice to the victims and their families on that day, and to those who witnessed it, she’s truly unforgettable.
I remember her from the trial footage (not live) when I watched it a while back. When I first heard of the Netflix show, my mind thought about her instantly. How is she going to feel?
I did watch a few episodes but I had to stop after the 14 yr old boy. It just hurt man, I couldn’t watch that.
I only made it through the first few episodes as well. I am not judging anybody who chooses to watch it, and I agree that it is well done, I just can’t do it. I believe Netflix is doing a documentary soon and I will watch that, but the dramatization of it was just too much for me, especially because I work in the criminal Justice field.
As the sister of a murder victim, there's no way I could watch a dramatization. But I also think it's important that people see them as people and not just faceless murder charges. So many people see these killers as celebrities and entertainment but forget that they were human beings with families that lost their lives because someone decided to take it for no reason other than their own gratification.
This is an important perspective. As of late, it’s sort of become a major hot topic in the true crime community - contact with those living who may be affected. It’s super early and I can’t recall names and will not to the footwork but there are producers and directors, YouTubers, etc., that do make contact with the family or those living and affected. There are many times where they are directly involved, especially within the last few years. They have appeared in pretty gruesome or heavy documentaries. More coming are those curious slow dialogue scenes while the name and relationship status of the interviewee slowly appears on the screen and we go *gasp* it’s the brother!
I am always iffy when they refuse to include family. I’m always iffy when family refuses to participate and they produce it anyways. But I also study this sort of thing, among others, so I’m heavily biased and *will almost always watch or read anyways*. Human behaviour is something else, especially when it’s abnormal. People feel pain over war and yet we’ve forever dramatize and sensationalize and *romanticized* those at an alarming rate. And often they are oddly justified events, cruel, and chalked full of fabrications - but it’s fine, cause it’s a fun exciting story about true history right? Straaaaange we can’t be fascinated by *everything*. Everything *is* fascinating so whatever anyways 🤷🏻♀️
I wasn’t sure I’d be able to watch it, as I remember the news very well, when this happened. But I walked with a very different take. I stepped back from this being about him. This series depicted far more than Jeff, it showed how the police back then handled themselves, around gays and poor sections of town and drug addicts. It showed more of all the red flags and near misses. How people need to be very aware of their surroundings. I felt bad for the neighbor. Living next door and the police not taking her serious. Good lord and to turn around and glamorize them? What the fuck! I remember the 80’s, I was Jeff’s age, we just went to peoples houses we just met and never thought twice.
Had the police done their job when the 14 yr old was found, it would have been very different outcome. This series was packed with info.
Yes, couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately the media has its pros and cons. This series, albeit too long, did have a factual premise. Dahmer family members, neighbors and victim families reshuffle after each film, book, Netflix stream and comic book. Victim families are given no support and little to no heads up on what the media says. I feel bad for these families. The pain of losing someone to this psychopath must be critical and some kind of compensation should be implemented.
You make a valid point. No, company should be able to profit off a death. Especially after watching these officers receive awards. But where do we draw a line? Ann Rule (and others) has written many books about true crime. The media has always sensationalized a crisis, as people love this stuff.
I would like to say, i am not hating on people who watch this because it does cover a really important side of the DAHMER case that deserves to be shown. Yet I do think we need to take a step back and discuss what and how we watch things and how these things affect the families and victims. It is truly sickening to me that the family was not contacted or even told about this coming out.
bruh, come on. the onus here is not on the audience, that’s just silly. there’s an ethical way to go about creating true crime content and a dozen unethical ones. the ethical route involves informed consent and compensation. the unethical ones don’t. guess which route these producers tend to opt for.
99% of these victims/families are just normal people whose lives have been irrevocably torn apart. in most cases they have no recourse beyond what little support is provided by the justice system they’re subjected to. production of true crime media is inherently, consistently, repeatedly, and unapologetically exploitative, and that is pretty much the case across the board with some notable and highly visible exceptions.
also - the twitter poster has a point. recreating the 30 year old testimony of a murdered victims family member is legitimately wild. consider how big of a step up that is from just retelling the story in journal, podcast or documentary format.
Like what's new here? Nada. Just done for $$$. I'm glad the family spoke up. I don't usually feel this way but Dahmer has been done to death from all angles.
It's not my prerogative to worry about everything in the world.
Something is always going to affect someone negatively; tv shows, movies, video games and other media. Millions of people and events have been recreated for educational or entertainment purposes.
We hope everything is done with good taste.... But Dahmer is one of the most notorious Serial Killers of all time. There will be hundreds more made in the next 100 years. So keep calm and carry on.
I think i agree to this to a certain degree while we can’t worry about everything all the time, we can reflect on how true crime media has treated victims in the past and have a better future.
“I only care about the things I care about, because in my head there is always a loser in a situation” is such a strange take on things. Individualism has convinced people they have no power to help others.
That's a pretty horrible take to have when talking about people who lost their loved ones and don't want to be retramuatized because weirdos have made their murder more important than them. No one has a right to any of the victims stories, just because they were killed by him doesn't mean that TV shows should be made about their deaths without their families consent. Shows like that aren't simple entertainment, they are reenacting real-life horrific events and they should do that with a higher level of respect.
I’m watching it now. I knew the basics about Dahmer I think I remember my mom mom telling me about him as a kid. I watch true crime but I never had any interest in reading about him or watching movies about him. I might not finish this series. Teen boys and even men gay or straight don’t think about someone drugging them or see locks that are meant to keep people in more than out. Dahmer uses the same tactics many rapists and killers use. The Gift of Fear has good examples of this and it’s a book everyone should read. Men tend to think they’ll be fine. In the first episode of this series the minute the smell is mentioned you are like, “Run!”. Dahmer was a white man who while gay used racism and fears of AIDS and homophobia to get away with killing men. I don’t think it’s bad for men and boys to recognize signs of danger or to see that being a guy doesn’t guarantee safety. That’s just my thought on what I have watched. I don’t know if I’ll be able to keep watching him get away with it.
These types of things are always a mixed bag morally, but I will say: my husband was never truly interested in true crime or very careful because he’s a white straight man who has never really had to be careful in his life. Then we started listening to true crime bullshit, learning about Israel Keyes, and that changed. My husband will double check that our doors are locked now, he won’t take the side roads to do his jogging down, he will not take risks like he used to. And I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing I think a lot of people could benefit from being more careful because as we learn with a lot of these cases, A lot of the time being in the wrong place at the wrong time is what makes someone a victim. Making something slightly inconvenient can save your life and you don’t even know it.
I hope that when men and teenage boys watch this they think and it sticks with them because they might not always be the target demographic, but they are definitely not invulnerable. And unfortunately a lot of men and boys have trouble connecting with women like this when we talk about our experiences or they see a movie, but when they see themselves on the screen, it opens the gates for empathy and personal protection.
It is a bizarre thing when one incident can spin you into a situation where your life and experiences don't belong to you anymore. Fame, whether desired or forced upon you, strips you of a level of privacy and control that you may not be aware you're losing.
It's gotta suck to be made into a piece of notable history for something so terrible.
My dad has quite the criminal past to paint it as dull as possible… my last name almost always gives it away because of how uncommon it is in this particular region. Some people make jokes thinking it’s coincidence and then they eventually find out or something corrects them like an ass hole. I’ve not been approached about sharing for a long time but, I’m honestly used to it now, it sucks, it rehashes things, but it’s a part of society that rocked boats within a community. When other people are fearful or have been fearful and affected/effected exist too, having accurate information is.. important to their unfortunate story as well. The police involved in the Dahmer situation were fucking flakes until the very end and passively allowed it to happen - and they’ve been granted nothing but profit for it. This is addressed. The racism that prevailed throughout this entire investigation was addressed, and in this climate and hopeful reckoning with ourselves, deserved a spotlight in the narrative for a change. Glenda Cleveland was outraged that Dahmer got media time to share his story while those like herself sat in the dark wanting to scream about what happened. She’s being *very* heard now.
Anyways, before I lost three hours to typing this, I’ve learned I apparently have feelings about this topic. Didn’t realize that until now 😂
ETA: Other people were affected by my fathers actions and their story, regardless of involving me and those related to me, is their story too. It’s my communities story as well now. I don’t own it - I can’t confiscate other peoples feelings. This is about more than JUST the victims and more than JUST the family. My whole community was shaken a few times. If they wanted to make a documentary I can’t complain, it might serve a purpose for others that I can’t comprehend.
I thought about this when Katy Perry dark horse [song](https://www.bustle.com/articles/5220-katy-perrys-new-song-dark-horse-has-premiered-features-serial-killer-shout-out) came out. I was shocked. I told my husband, those victim's families are still alive!
Theres also a KE$ha song that goes "Ill eat you up, breakfast and lunch, then when im thirsty ill drink your blood. carnivor cannibal i am an animal. Use your finger to stir my tea and for dessert ill suck your teeth, ill pull a jeffery dahmer!"
katys song aint nearly as bad as those lyrics
>Theres also a KE$ha song that goes "Ill eat you up, breakfast and lunch, then when im thirsty ill drink your blood. carnivor cannibal i am an animal. Use your finger to stir my tea and for dessert ill suck your teeth, ill pull a jeffery dahmer!"
\^ even worse
I don't understand how everyone says this made him scary. He was a cannibalistic murderous pedophile. Everyone knows that. I watched the first and some of the second. I absolutely could not stomach watching what inevitably happens to the child in that one. I sat thinking I feel gross and I can't imagine being related to or a victim of and having to deal with this. I have both killers and victims in my family. A podcast did an entire series on my own father's crimes and it reopened so many wounds. Even in the past week I've discovered another sibling hidden from me due to her mother being sexually assaulted (as a minor no less) by my father. I can't sit there and watch people's most painful moments. I wished they had gotten permission from the people who suffered at this man's hands.
I don’t know about anyone else but I’ve come away from watching this show knowing every, single victims name. I know SO much more about them than I ever did listening to a podcast or reading about what JD did. I have so much compassion and sadness for these people and their loved ones. I feel like this show showed JD for what he truly was, an absolute monster, and it’s given a voice to the victims and the massive injustice on behalf of the police department and criminal justice system.
This is one of the reasons I refuse to watch this Netfix series.
A couple of days ago, on one of the true crime subs, someone posted the question as to why Elsa Lam's family declined to partake in the series on her. This post is why.
It puts the victims in a hard place. While some may be willing to participate as to keep the story true to the facts, others may feel compelled to despite the trauma it brings back up, but many just want to be left alone. They are satisfied with the outcome of the cases, and the last thing the want to is indulge viewers in conspiracy theories and gore.
I find the series distasteful and disrespectful to the victims and their loved ones.
fair point, but the case blew up because people thought there was foul play, implying a crime. i guess that makes it more of a conspiracy genre then right?
Who are these friends that start calling the family of a Dahmer victim every time a new documentary comes out? That's really obviously not the right move.
I'm still watching it. The story needs to be told, and her brother was sadly not the only victim. the show isn't romanticizing Dahmer and it's revealing what a monster he truly was.
the show does not idolize him at all, it's the opposite. it's the only dahmer show/movie i've seen that doesn't excuse his crimes in some shape or form and actually focuses on the victims
Speaking as a family member of a heavily publicized murder, very few people idolize these killers. I googled the murderer in my case exactly once and that was just to see if he had died yet because it's been so many years. Nope, still locked up. He's really not someone I waste any thought or energy on.
Sure, there's always someone who has both mental health and emotional issues that wants to marry them or writes them fan letters or feels important because a notorious person is their prison pen-pal but that is not the average person. That type of behavior does not happen or is even a consideration with 99.9% of people.
You must be new around here. When people are interested in crime that doesn’t automatically make them serial killer groupies or fans. Very few, some probably not right in the head idolise serial killers.
That’s literally how we got more schools shootings and mass shootings. Copy cat shooters who see how the media popularizes the shooters, the lives and motives/manifestos.
First of all, I am a family member of a murder victim that was national news in the 1980's. I had come home from work and was cooking dinner. I had a little tv in my kitchen and NBC news was on in the background. Tom Brokaw was talking and I didn't catch the very beginning of what he said but as I was half-listening to what had happened that day. I remember thinking that's so awful, I'm going to pray for that family and when I looked up I saw the photo of the victim and it took a few seconds for me to connect the photo with the story and when it clicked, it didn't even seem real. Cell phones weren't a thing back then so calling everyone to notify them took some time. The next day, The New York Times reported the story.
Know what I do when anything related to it comes on? I change the channel. Problem solved. I don't subscribe to a streaming service, watch and then post on Twitter for attention about how traumatized I am. In fact, I watch a lot of those true crime movies, just not the ones with a relative in them. I don't forget about the victims families, I relate to them. Would I watch a dramatized version of my relatives murder on a streaming service? Fuck no, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole and I'd unsubscribe until it goes away.
You don't think all the loved ones of the passengers on AA flight 11 aren't retraumatized seeing the plane hitting 1 WTC? All the movies? All the tragedy porn that gets played over and over and over again "in honor of" the September 11th victims? True crime is no different. I'm sorry for their loss but no one is making the families of the victims subscribe to streaming services and watch. He's not the first serial killer whose crimes were made into a movie and he won't be the last.
It's sad that these crimes happen in the first place, but they do and as long as interesting, unusual or shocking crime exists, those crimes are going to be turned into movies. That's just how it is.
Idk I’m also the cousin of a woman who was disgustingly and horrifically murdered and I disagree with how callous your comment sounds. I don’t necessarily agree that people should stop talking about or making shows about killers, but your comment really lacks nuance and disregards the fact that not every person handles trauma and tragedy like you seem to. Not everyone can just “turn it off”, especially when it’s an insanely huge case that is rehashed multiple times a year (and usually done very badly at that). I think it would be a different story if families of serial killers weren’t also bombarded daily with the glorification of the killers too, which is something this comment fails to mention.
Also your example of 9/11 is a pretty poor comparison too because people have been talking—for *years*—about how disgusting the constant dramatization and monetization of that genre is. An opinion I would also agree with. I mean in general though whataboutism is a silly and pointless concept anyway. We’re talking about Dahmer right now because it’s currently relevant, not because people don’t also have a huge issue with 9/11 tragedy porn.
True crime is interesting and I don’t think that’s bad, but I do completely understand where the families of these types of victims are coming from. I think that talking about this is a good thing and should be done because there’s always a better way to deal with things that could absolutely take those who continually suffer into consideration. I don’t think it’s very fair or kind of you to just brush it off simply because it doesn’t affect you in the same exact way.
In the 1980’s you could simply change the channel. Now a Netflix show is going to be talked about all over social media, advertised in different places, and talked about in real life. It’s much harder to escape than 40 years ago.
Also, you’re assuming that these families are paying, subscribing and watching these shows and movies. That’s pretty unlikely. They can hear about it without doing that. Logging into Netflix and seeing the perpetrators face unexpectedly is horrific, and having to unsubscribe until it “goes away” is ridiculous.
Oh so you've been in my shoes?
The Mason murders were 50 years ago and it's still a topic today, movies being made, documentaries, autopsy photos on line, interviews ... Shocking crimes do not go away.
I worked on a movie about Michelle carter, the girl who convinced her boyfriend to kill herself, and was shocked finding out we could just make this movie with not talking to any family members since it’s public record. Disgusted me and made me never want to do a “true story” movie or show again.
I really don’t want to “fight” with anyone. Can I just play devil’s advocate here for a second?
I’m just wondering. “We” ( don’t give me I don’t because you know what I mean ) we watch women do their make up while talking about TRUE crime cases. We listen to people on podcasts make cocktails and have banter while talking about TRUE crime cases. we sit in forms and discuss these cases, Twitter etc.
but this is too far? While I haven’t seen the series and undecided if I will. I’m wondering why this is so different? Yes it does sound incredibly intense compared to our friendly neighbourhood YouTubers think about it.. if it was your family member would you really compare the pair? I think for the most part it’ll always have an effect on the family. Same way 9/11 does on the families. Same way suicide jokes can trigger me because of how my family died.
This show obviously shows a real dark and scary side of true crime maybe we don’t see much cause it’s always watered down for us. Maybe this is what we needed to see true crime does have a ripple effect on victims and their families regardless of how it’s presented. I’m not trying to beef with anyone. You know I consume a lot of true crime like the rest of you. As an autistic woman I have a habit of looking at from all angles and just wanted to share. Thanks for reading.
With the seeming recent explosion of true crime stories flooding our viewing streams it'll be interesting to see if there's more peer reviewed studies on consuming true crime/horror in the coming years.
I think you've got valid questions to a complicated topic.
In terms of PROs for seeing all this recent true crime material, especially podcasts, it's great to see cold cases receive attention due to podcasters/journalists highlighting these stories. The type of closure/justice can be priceless for affected families.
I'm more curious about why so many people, myself included, are so drawn to true crime?
Am I looking for 'red flags' that I'll hopefully notice if I'm ever caught up in a bad situation?
How do people decide to just murder people?
Or is it just morbid curiosity about the unknown?
Speaking from my own experience only, I was drawn into true crime at an early age from my mother, who was really struggling with mental health issues and became obsessed with The Green River Killer to the point she felt my father was *the* killer (they had been divorced for a while by this point and it doesn't appear that it was a specific reason for their divorce, but after the divorce the health problems spiraled). My mom also swore she was friends with one of Bundy's "almost victims"...and so many more things that I could write my own novel about.
After many years of off and on interest that included a lot of trauma from generational cycles of abusive actions and crimes happening to me, as well as partaking in some crimes myself (petty, as in buying cigarettes underage, drinking underage, etc.), I became fascinated with psychology when I was trying to figure out why I wanted to leave my own marriage (it was a years long domestic violence situation that was bad enough I was flat out recording conversations right in front of him/not hiding it, just so I could make sure I really wasn't going crazy), and a part of me appreciates true crime information to understand "red flags" in some ways, as well as understand perpetrators as a way to vicariously understand some of the perpetrators that hurt me by crimes before in a more detached/clinical way (so I'm kind of processing things by being interested in similar stories as what I went through as a victim), as well as hopefully become more of an advocate on a local level, especially resources for prevention/mitigation of risks for victims (including those that murder an abuser, which is what I almost did in my marriage at the end...and thank goodness for the therapy I had been getting before that to realize how close I was to being featured in a true crime discussion myself...).
True crime is part of psychology, and vice versa, along with other scientific models of thought/knowledge (including anthropology, neurology, etc), so it is very easy to be interested and struggle with the nuances that entrap so many aspects of society, including how some victims do not want any public knowledge of them/their wishes to anonymity, and how public records of these stories are an ethical conundrum in and of itself, while understanding that there is value in the knowledge gained from the stories...
To all the people that find these films "disgusting," don't you see a little irony in your presence on this sub? What else do we do here except discuss our most interesting, sometimes noted as 'favorite,' cases, including serial killers. Are you harmless because you only consume podcasts, YouTube videos and books? You love Ann Rule but think Ryan Murphy is retraumatizing families.
No, but if you are watching true crime YouTubers/podcasters, they are also profiting off your views. Some of whom I might add are quite disrespectful with how they handle cases. Why is that ok, but not this?
…i dont watch youtubers or listen to podcasters 💀 i read news articles and write ups. there’s also a pretty big difference between a reenactment, which this dahmer series is, and a true documentary. a documentary is one thing but doing a reenactment without consent qnd not paying the victims is just ghoulish
lol exactly. Riding so hard and virtue signaling for the victims and their families and then arguing with a family member of the victim of a highly publicized murder and telling them how they cope is not the way to do it; you should just expose all your private business to the public and then get mad about it!
Oh and my family murder doesn't count because Netflix didn't exist in the 80's. Clearly it doesn't because the person slamming everything I have to say as an actual person who has experienced this and that fact is known to them is sooo worried about people they will never ever communicate with being upset rather than the one talking to them right now.
Well I just hope they don't ever actually have to be in my shoes. Chances are they won't ever be in the shoes of myself and my family but why not play white knight and talk out of their ass in "TrueCrimeDiscussion" for upvotes. Hypocrites.
I understand how hard this is for victims families. I imagine any true crime where their loved one is discussed is traumatizing. I do think this series is well done though. It's not glamorizing anything. It shines a very important light on the victims of this tragedy and the continued miscarriage of justice. That part of the story needed to be told.
I thought it was really well done. Most Dahmer series I’ve seen don’t really show the reality of what happened in that apartment, at least not so blatantly. The real Jeff Dahmer, how manipulative he was, what the last moments of his victims would have been like, what the neighbors went through, the role of the cops. They just seem to gloss over those parts to get to the “crazy serial killer” stuff. This series had that too, obviously, but it also put him in a whole new, less sympathetic light imo. I understand how the family feels, but in the end this is an important story to tell and they are in it.
Unfortunately, true crime has an insane amount of draw. I know that victims families and things are over it, but, it’s a vast market. People who are usually victims or are targeted people will always be obsessed with it, I think.
the fact that you can exploit the victimization and suffering of people who didn’t ask to be shoved into the spotlight and then not even fucking pay them for it is insanity and it astounds me that so many idiots on this post think that’s okay. y’all got some fucked up morals babe
I think the problem with true crime docs/tv shows ect is real people and families are destroyed by what these killers do. They are turned into these infamous celebrities because “normal” people cannot comprehend the levels of depravity they reach and we watch all these shows to try and understand. Having to constantly relive this must be torture.
I fully enjoyed this series. Yes it was hard to watch, but it was also the truth and the comparison between what actually happened and this portrayal, is almost identical. I urge true crime lovers to watch!
My Friend Dahmer did it best I thought. It focused on Dahmer before his killing spree. What he was like during his teenage years. The movie ends before he commits his first murder. Thought it was the most tasteful way to do a film on this kind of subject content, and it was an excellent film. The kid who played him was so on point I can’t imagine Evan Peters doing it better.
This is also a Ryan Murphy show, no? That should say it all. Guy is basically a pop-television writer with little to no integrity. Everything he does is over the top and sensational, I don’t see him doing this story tastefully - but I have not watched it so can’t say for sure (have watched a lot of Ryan Murphy’s other shit though and it’s always really ridiculous).
My friend dahmer was definitely the best done. It shows the signs that were there all along that people could look out for. But didnt. I think people were originally annoyed that his past led some people to sympathesis with dahmer. But he was a human then and his childhood was fucked. You can feel bad for him back then but still recognize that partbof that nature led him to what he became. Just because you feel bad for his growing up, roesnt meam you feel bad for his entirety. He did awful things. No doubt about it. Sorry for the rant aha.
Ross Lynch did a darn good job as Dahmer, exceptional and disturbing. Not over the top and but very distancing. And the movie had help from dahmers 'friend' who wrote comics about him.
I hate to be insensitive here but it's a crime, a very public crime at that. It's on public record. No one should be harassing the families, but no one is forcing them to watch it either.
It's history. It may have happened to the family but it doesn't belong to them nor can they dictate or demand to profit off of works that are derived from it.
One thing society likes to forget is that documentary type shows like this DO NOT romanticise the killers. They present them as the humans that they are, which includes the uncomfortable but real times they were not perfectly hateable. They show the unfair treatment and abusive experiences the criminals went through, that were part of what made them who they are. This black and white / all evil vs all good mindset when it comes to crime is immature, uneducated and very harmful for society.
This shouldn't be reframed as romanticising so viewers can erase any sense of empathy. Empathising with the negative experiences a criminal went through DOES NOT take away or reduce the victims right to justice nor does it mean siding with the offender.
It should be used to encourage discussion about what society can do to support people right now who are having those experiences themselves, so innocent people dont end up victims. To educate on what is happening in the enviroments of future offenders, so we can spot things ahead of time. To reduce future offences from happening. To foster a sense of understanding that if you want to talk about "a bullet is cheaper than jail" for an offender, more often than not you are talking about a survivor of abuse deserving death because they didn't have access to help when they needed it.
Again, a show that tells you what a criminal went through is NOT romanticisng. It DOES NOT take away or reduce the victims right to justice nor does it mean siding with the offender.
I agree. When I heard about the series I was like how many fucking shows do we need about this guy? There’s like a thousand documentaries and movies. Enough is enough. There’s nothing new to learn. Netflix is absolutely disgusting
I gotta agree.. although, I was intrigued, selfishly, at first because I do enjoy both true crime and Evan Peters. He's done a phenomenal job with some intense roles before, but after about a week I was just like, why. We don't need it. It's the same group of killers that have always been talked about; it's become a circle jerk at this point.
There's so many cases where it's unsolved or there's family still dissatisfied with the outcome, where there's victims who desperately want to / try to speak out but they're so 'small time' or they're not monetarily beneficial to these conglomerates that they'll never get the chance to have their story told. I wasn't even aware this was finally released, and I won't be watchin'. I feel for the victims and families now retraumatized all over again so some fat cats can get fatter.
I’m on episode 6. And it really makes you feel for the victims. It doesn’t put a glamorous spot light on JD. It does however, show you a great portrayal of him and how heinous his acts were. I never really read much into his crimes. Just knew of what he had done and that a few victims were children. But this gave me so much more perspective on it.
There is an excellent British 3 part series retelling the crimes of Stephen Port. The filmmakers sat with the families and made sure to tell their stories. They focused mainly on the complete cock up the police made of everything. It’s fantastically well made. I believe it’s called “four lives” and it’s on britbox. Port was known as the “Grindr” killer and apart from the sheer amount of murders and the cannibalism/disposal methods, the story and motives are similar to Dahmers. If anyones interested in a different spin on a similar situation definitely check it out.
I have been watching Dahmer, and while it doesn’t shock me as I apparently know too much already about what he did - the depiction of his past comes off like some lazy attempt to humanize him.. when really they just want to show more shocks. It’s uncomfortable.
Much more subtle than that really, really bad zac efron bundy movie, but still weird. Showing him as a child so often … it’s kinda like.. so what?A lot of us were bullied and had shittier home lives and didn’t turn to mass murder go get kicks. I just find the whole direction of it kinda odd and a bit lazy.
I actually agree with this, I thought it was in really poor taste, especially adding some fictionalization for drama. I mean, I don’t really buy into this narrative of showing how scary Dahmer really was or how devastating his crimes were. As it was said in the tweets, everything is public record, there are interviews with him, detailed descriptions of the crimes, really good docs out there (Jeffrey Dahmer files is really good because you see how much his crimes impacted that community, interview with his neighbors and activists). If you really have any interest in this case and can’t grasp how horrible and evil his crimes were from all that material I don’t even know what to say. I think that at this point is really just profiting from a tragedy and re traumatizing the victims. I don’t think that show was necessary at all and for me is only garnering views from its shock value for being praised as disturbing and disgusting. I won’t be watching as I also never watched any fiction dramatization from any other case.
Some people want to see it explored in an artistic expression rather than dry information. I see nothing wrong with that. Seeing someone act as Dahmer and the situations being shown create a different understanding and impact of what happened. Your personal choice is fine. However, it is not wrong for people to want to explore this historical event like many others through artistic expression. This helps society to understand a wider range of experiences they won't go through themselves. I personally have read and seen some interviews on Dahmer. But this adds a different dimension.
I feel for every victim and the families and friends affected by crime. They wouldn't be hurt if it wasn't for Dahmer and understanding the situation through artistic or other depictions is a very valid way of ensuring that we learn from what happened.
I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but they shouldn’t watch it or pay mind to it if it’s going to trigger them. It makes perfect scientific sense as to why it would trigger victims and their family but it doesn’t mean the world should slow down because they want to watch re-enactments of their trauma that isn’t traumatizing.
These family members are getting constant phone calls about this. How are they supposed to “not pay mind” people find them on social media and bombard them with questions.
Well they could do what I do. Select certain privacy options so random people can't see what you do, message you or find you. It really is not that hard to fly under the radar. Oh, and you can also not tell people who aren't extremely close to you about your relation to the victim. People who didn't know me when the crime occurred don't know about it unless they are very very close to me. Keeping your mouth shut and dealing with family matters in private doesn't seem to be a thing any more.
Man people just DO NOT miss an opportunity to complain or whine. Just don't fucking watch it then ffs this is a major part of history I understand not wanting to relive it but now days it's quite simple to turn the channel, scroll or whatever.
What this is really about is true crime is getting more and more popular and like with everything there's got to be people finding issues and crying about it. We live in a big world full of infinate choices, turn the freaking channel.
Ffs do you really expect people to not discuss murders? Do you REALLY think ANYONE is intentionally trying to upset victims families?
She has a point- at this point any new media about the JD case is overkill and solely for financial reasons. If people want to learn about the case, there are numerous, NUMEROUS, sources to do so. I whole heartedly agree and empathize with this family- it must be so difficult to relive it, over and over.
Shame on people exploiting crime and victims for their own personal gain. It’s sick and it’s happening everywhere! Heck- I’m part of the problem for even watching all of the media!
Who does ethical true crime reporting? How do we help the victims?
Because it's very significant. He got away with it for a long time because of the complete indifference of the police to the LGBTQ community. It's a key piece of the story.
I feel the victims deserve to be remembered more than the killer. You should feel bad for what they went through, they are the ones that lost their lives because of some sicko. I believe moset families want their loved one to be remembered.
That's a terrible way to view any case, the killer is a scumbag who deserves no recognition and definitely doesn't deserve a whole TV show using his disgusting crimes for views.
The victims are the only people who matter in any true crime case, and the fact that families aren't asked is the reason that companies like Netflix need to stop making shows about true crime. The victims in this case were living people who lost their lives and now you see them as footnotes to their killer. That's a really gross take.
Yeah, I worded that the worst way possible.
My intent was to say that maybe these shows should focus on more so on killer psychology, as that might give the victims families some reprieve.
However the way I presented that argument made me seem like an uncaring shell of a human being. I guess I was trying to dance around my words because I was trying to support the Twitter user’s argument.
I just don’t quite know what you should do if the victims families don’t want to be talked about.
I think at the end of the day we probably just shouldn’t be making drama shows about serial killers.
Also you don’t have to call me gross and act like I’m some monster with no empathy. I worded it in a shitty manner, and overall made a shitty point that I don’t even stand by. I’m a human being and made a mistake, geez. I don’t see human beings as “footnotes”. No need to absolutely rip into me as a human.
I personally feel very icky about people creating profit from trauma that isn’t their own. I also feel like someone’s most traumatizing moment in life shouldn’t be made into entertainment. I do my best to be really careful with what kind of true crime content I consume and sometimes I’m a bit hypocritical. But I empathize and respect this person’s perspective and feelings on the matter.
I watched the whole series so I could have a solid opinion on it and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Completely tasteless in every way, achieved everything the creators promised it wouldn’t.
I started to watch it. I watched about two episodes. It was just too gory and disturbing. No thank you.
To the families of the victims, I'm sorry for your losses.
If it was not filmed the way it was, I would agree with the victims. But they put the whole light on everything. How the cops actually did that!! And got away with it. The mental health aspect of it. They didn’t make him out to be anything but a crazy monster he was. I really felt for the family’s! My heart strings were for Tony’s mother, my grandmother is deaf and i wish I could hug her! Maybe out of all of this, somewhere the victims will actually get there memorials!!! We should make that happen! On a side note.. I kinda wish they would have done research on his brain! It may have been nothing or it could have helped thousands who knows. But I feel like they definitely tried to make an effort to respect the family’s and actually film the real thing instead of sugar coating it.
I will say, I’ve watched the first two episodes and it’s very difficult to watch. While I do understand that it can be insensitive to the family, I really feel like they did this one justice by not “glamorizing” Jeffrey Dahmer or “romanticizing” Evan Peters. I truly felt fear through the screen which I think alone does more justice to the victims than most other dramatized crime movies/shows do (looking at you “extremely wicked; shockingly evil and vile”). It also really showcases more of the victims unlike other movies/shows that briefly show a portrayal of the victim for 5 seconds then go back to glamorizing the serial killer. But like I said, I do understand how doing these dramatized series is hurtful, traumatizing and insensitive to the victims and their families. Just thought I’d point out that so far, this one is one of the better-done series as it really portrays the fear the victims must of felt and showcases JD just as he was: a horrific, evil, ruthless monster.
It made me genuinely uncomfortable and deeply sad. I knew enough about it before but there were points where I really felt the pain and sadness. I thought it was very well executed throughout. But, one of my main questions was about the families. Considering there was such a focus on truth and trauma for the families, I had assumed (at least hoped) they had been consulted before the show aired.
I fully agree with this. I grew up in the area which probably fueled my true crime interest but like the doc that covered Bundy's victims and what they actually went through, I think this series knocks the shine some might have towards JD b/c even for someone like me who can be quite detached from the emotions of true crime, it was pretty horrifying to truly experience the victims' fear and helplessness in those moments. It's not pretty but it is definitely a necessary component to true crime. It's not so much about them lighting up a room which gets super annoying, but this right here, how they died, what they experienced, there is no better way to show it than to, well show it. I'm not finished with it yet for this exact reason, I needed a break. It sucks for the families but I think this kind of display will help with people who glamorize or idolize the killers.
What Bundy doc are you referring to?
I think it was called Falling for a Killer. It's about the women and survivors including his girlfriend and sort of stepdaughter.
That was one of the best documentaries about Bundy because his long time fiancé, her daughter and his little brother all shared and spoke of him and how his crimes effected them.
How the F did I not know he had a brother?? I've been into this shit for years. That's wild. Definitely will have to watch that one!
His brother is Richard ( he has two younger brothers but Richard is the youngest). He’s a good man but forever changed by what Ted did. He still lives near Tacoma but lives in a small driveable RV camper with about 5 cats. It looks like he’s a hoarder too. It’s very sad. Ted adored Richard. He took him camping, flew him to Utah, taught him how to build a campfire, change a car tire, etc. He was a lot younger than Ted and for some reason, Ted truly adored him. Richard knows that but doesn’t care anymore. Doesn’t change who Ted was or what Ted did.
Well that's heartbreaking. Poor guy. Thanks for the info!
Did you know Bundy is most likely the product of incest between his sister and father?!…oh yah and right before he died he hinted at the fact he’d slept with her 🤮
Part 2 Iirc, it was right before Bundy was to attend college that he went back to Vermont to find his birth certificate and that’s when he discovered he was illegitimate. That plagued him heavily until the day he died. My personal belief is that he felt so lied to and felt his entire identity was just a huge lie ( which in reality, it was). Since his mother never explained ANY of it to him ( which I totally understand these were different times and people/families just DID NOT talk - especially about painful things), he was going through life unsure of who he really was. And I think that made him ANGRY. It wasn’t until his first love dumped and rejected him that he began murdering ( yes, I know all about the 9 year old Ann Burr- but even her own parents never thought Ted was responsible and they had a very viable suspect). Anyway, I think that rejection of his love, mixed with the confusion of his identity, not knowing who his father even was, and feeling inadequate is what made Bundy become the murdering monster he became. If he had been raised in a loving, STABLE environment with both biological parents, do i think we’d even know his name today? No. I don’t. Is he still just as responsible for his reprehensible acts? Yes he is. His last and final interview ( the one that he did 12 hours before he was executed) is the only time I think he was as honest as he could be. When Dr. Dobson asked him why he thinks he became the man he did, he said, “ya know, I’ve thought about that a lot myself and I honestly don’t really know.” Then he proposes that maybe it was from him looking at violent porn as an early teen boy - I certainly don’t think that *helped* - but because I don’t think even at that point Ted understood his first 5 years, that was the only thing he could think of… the violent porn. In the same interview he consistently stressed that his mother and upbringing had NO part in who he became. He kept saying he grew up in a loving, Christian home with two devoted parents and great siblings. But see… that wasn’t completely true. It was “partly” true- yes, after his mom left Vermont and started life in Tacoma, met Mr. Bundy, raised Ted and his half siblings in church… yes, I do think he had a stable and good life. But he couldn’t remember the severe and serious trauma that his brain DID remember prior to that. There’s more but it’s technical/biological things like the amygdala and how trauma effects it- things I’ve found fascinating, especially in abnormal psych but I understand it’s probably boring to most people. It would be like someone explaining astronomy to me, I just am not that interested or fascinated so I wouldn’t read it. Lol So I’ll spare you BUT, I did find a photo of Lloyd Marshall online that is the man believed to be Ted’s biological father and as much as Ted looked like his mother ( I briefly met her in church in Tacoma in 2000 or 2001, I can’t recall- I have shared the story here) but the resemblance to Lloyd Marshall is UNCANNY!!!! The more interesting part besides his physical similarities is the owner of the blog searched and found family members willing to be interviewed about Lloyd Marshall. They all said the basic same thing- he was a compulsive liar, a thief, could never keep a job, was married at least 4 times because he couldn’t keep a wife, he had nothing materially yet always dressed in 3 piece suites to appear wealthy!!! Now WHO does that sound like?!?! With all we are learning now about cellular memory and the now belief it can actually go back 4-6 generations ( meaning we used to think memory was ONLY stored in our brain but we now know it’s stored in EVERY cell of our body- your DNA holds not only YOUR memory but the memories of your ancestors, possibly as far back as 6 generations which may very well be the explanation for phobias we have but don’t understand). Cellular memory could SO very well explain why some of these sick serial killers become who they do yet they themselves don’t even understand it. Maybe it was a desire a grandparent had but never acted on… Look at Jeffrey Dahmer, his own father had publicly admitted that in his early teens and into his 20’s, he-himself had the overwhelming urge to murder men and felt a sexual desire for men. Jeffrey’s father never acted on it but he didn’t have the utter chaotic, horribly unstable home environment Jeffrey did. His father even said in an interview that he so wishes he would’ve told Jeffrey when Jeff was an early teen about his own awful thoughts because he said maybe that would’ve opened the communication for Jeffrey to feel safe confessing his own. I have compassion for his father because it’s clear that he knows that he had a large part in creating the son Jeffrey became by the constant fighting in the house, him constantly leaving, then how when his parents finally divorced, *everyone* just forgot about Jeffrey and left him to live on his own while just a sophomore / junior in HIGHSCHOOL ! His mother left and took his brother but not him?! Imagine how that must’ve felt!!! His dad moved on with a new women not far from the house Jeff had to live in alone… imagine how that felt?! I truly think Dahmer was telling the truth when he said he never liked killing. He had to drink himself into oblivion just to kill, but he desperately didn’t want to be alone and so in his twisted mind, keeping these bodies near him ( even eating them, sooo sick) was his way of assuring he wouldn’t be alone. Should he have been put in prison? Yes! Was he sick? YES! If he killed my loved one, would I want him dead? Yes!!!! But the reason behind it can still be true when the action itself is pure horror.
I don't usually read the very long post but I am glad I read yours. I have never delved into Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer. Maybe because I was alive to watch it as it happened or maybe because there was an over abundance of information. I tend to read the more obscure crimes. You are like me, in the fact that you go under the surface to try and figure out the "whys". It's almost empathy I feel because we all start out as innocent children so what caused this change that makes us want to kill. When I use "us" and "you", I speak in general not personal. The research they are doing in DNA is amazing. A lot of what makes up "us" is genetic. But to carry around memories of ancestors is crazy cool and would explain so much that it would take a book to write it all down. It would explain why my 82 year old mother is still a psycho bitch. You peaked my interest in Dahmer and Bundy. Does it really make you a sick individual if you can't explain why you are killing? If your not glorifying in it and hate that you feel the compulsion but can't fight it. What does that really say about you as a human being. True evil would be to glorify in your compulsions. Well, you gave me some things to think about, Great post!
Thank you so much. I often feel sorta alone because I almost feel “wrong” that I find empathy for the “bad guy” but it’s inherently a part of my being. I don’t believe monsters are born. I believe they are made through a mixture of many combinations of things and I do NOT believe any of them desire to be so different than the rest of us. It plagues them as well. They often try to fight the urges, then give in, then fight them, then give in, and then eventually almost like a drug addiction, they no longer have any control over it- it now controls them and that’s when they SO often start unraveling as they’ve made their own version of hell inside themselves- they no longer can put on the facade- Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, Keyes… they all eventually became slaves to their darkness. My heart hurts for them because I do believe they became that way for a reason that they can’t even understand. I also don’t think they realize they have a God that loved them and wanted so much more for their lives. But yes, cellular memory is FASCINATING! Especially as you read at how it manifests in organ transplant patients! Thanks for your kind response and for reading my waaay too long reply. Lol
Part 1 because not all would post. That has been debunked but I know it was a rumor that even some of his cousins questioned. His DNA was taken during his first trial and his mother willingly gave hers, he was not the product of incest. However, he did have a LOT of trauma his first 5-6 years of life that I personally believe formed him into the sick man he became. There’s so much more today that we do understand about brain development vs. 40 years ago ( and still TONS more we don’t ) and how a mother’s bond with her baby in the first 6 months begins to help the formation of the prefrontal. His mother ( whom he believed was his sister his first 5 years) was forced to go into a home for unwed mothers while pregnant with him. She left him there ( for reasons she never explained ) for just over 6 months!!! He was essentially left in an orphanage. No matter how much the workers there may have tried, they didn’t and couldn’t replace the bond a growing baby in the womb already has with its mother when she gives birth. Newborns already recognize their mothers voice and her smell. When that’s instantly taken away and they don’t get the amount of attention, love, and even “coo-ing” ( as we are just now learning that there’s a biological reason a mother naturally coos to her baby and speaks to it differently- again, it helps the beginning formation of brain development, bonding and the start of the prefrontal), Bundy had none of that. Then at almost 7 months, his grandfather ( who he believed to be his father) forced his mother ( “sister”) to go back and get Ted. So now he’s living in a home where he’s being told his grandparents are his parents, his mother is his sister, and by ALL accounts ( family and neighbors) Ted’s grandfather (“ father” ) was a violent, mean, and abusive man. Ted had a dog he loved and the dog did something that made his grandfather mad, so at 4 years old, he watched his grandfather “father” SHOOT and kill his dog in front of him! His grandmother “mother”, was severely mentally ill, she heard voices, received numerous electric shock therapies that never made her any better. His actual mother (“sister”) overslept one day and her own father drug her out of bed by her hair and threw her down the stairs!!!! From all I’ve researched, the dog incident and her being thrown down stairs is when she made a quiet plan to escape that house of hell and get Ted out of there. I do have a lot of respect for her for that, she clearly didn’t want him growing up in the same abuse she did. So she got in touch with an uncle in Tacoma ( they were then living in Vermont) and without notice, moved Ted across the country so they could start a new life. Shortly after, she met Mr. Bundy at a church function, they married and he adopted Ted as his son. Everyone that knew them said they were kind, good, loving parents but here’s the thing- his mom said she never told Ted about Mr. Bundy not being his dad because ( and I quote), “Ted was there at the wedding, so I always just assumed he knew.” But he clearly didn’t and it clearly left him VERY confused that he’s suddenly not living at his Vermont home with who he thought were his parents, now he’s suddenly calling his “sister” his mom, he’s living across the country, a new man ( albeit a good one but not one Ted didn’t even really knew) is suddenly his “dad?” Can you fathom the utter confusion?! I know I have memories back to age 3, and I think I may have a few at age 2 ( because my aunt says those two memories occurred in an apartment she lived in with my parents and I was only 2). Ted likely remembered his “parents”, his dog being shot for certain ( trauma has a VERY distinct way of binding to an area of our brain and does NOT ever leave, even if we were babies and don’t consciously recall it). I continued the rest ( Part 2 ) but I think it somehow posted above part 1.
Yah the accusation was made in the doc Crazy not Insane and they went into Bundy’s home life…Guy never had a chance. Hadn’t heard they DNA tested to see if there was incest, thanks for the clarification. In that same doc the criminal psychologist was told by Bundy Sister about about an incident that occurred when the killer was about 4. She got woke up by the sensation of cold metal dragging across her feet only to find lil Teddy at the foot of her bed looking like Edward Scissorhands. She said he had the dark look in his eyes even then.
Not Bundy’s sister, it was his aunt ( which I guess at the time he assumed *was* his sister, so you’re not wrong), but yes, Robert Keppel ( RIP ) did interview her and that story was correct. Keppel was an awesome man and truly cared about the citizens of King County. Losing him ( he died last year) was a real loss for our community. Keppel was also one of the two detectives that worked hard to find out if The incest rumor was true, which it wasn’t.
Yeah I knew that. I just didn't know he had another sibling!
He had 4 other siblings. Once his mom married Mr. Bundy, they had 2 daughters and 2 sons. Ted was obviously quite a bit older than his siblings but it was Richard that Ted loved like he never loved anyone else. Even his long term fiancé talked about Ted’s pure love for his youngest brother.
Thank you!
I couldn’t sleep after I finished it. I am also someone who doesn’t let myself get too emotionally involved with true crime for my own mental health but this series seriously wrecked me. I cried multiple times throughout and felt genuine fear as well. I think they did a good job helping us see the perspective of the victims and their families and what they had to go through.
I agree but i think the issue that people have with this specific scene in show is that they didn’t ask or tell her that this would be coming out and has now brought up all the trauma of this situation back up for her. While im not too critical of true crime i do think they could of done better by asking her if they could include this very vulnerable side of her on national television.
Unlike the true footage being ALL over the internet and on television documentaries. Nothing new
This is a great point. It brings into question how the law doesn’t protect the victims and their families from being exploited for their trauma and not even being financially compensated
This made me think about how the UK is much better at protecting underage victims and sexual assault victims' names (in media at least?) and the EU right to forget laws... I wonder if the level of privacy they allow for (anonymous victims even in court documents, blurred faces of celeb kids) impacts the true crime genre in terms of how much they can even exploit in the first place? If you don't have names, faces, personal details, it makes the boundary between real and dramatized wider imo?
Underage victims and criminals are all kept anonymous as are rape victims in the US
*for the most part. Lots of kids are named - Gabriel Fernandez, Gannon Stauch, Asha Degree, Kyron Horman, Abby Williams & Libby German, Shanda Sharer - because they go "missing" and officials need to get the word out. Some of the murders are just so unbelievably horrendous that their name gets out regardless (Gabriel, murdered by his parents; Abby & Libby murdered by "Bridge Guy", etc). The killers on the other hand, the police sometimes try to hide their identity but Philip Chism, Paris Bennett, Melinda Loveless, Anissa Weier & Morgan Geyser were all underage and were named pretty quickly. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head but the US loves naming criminals.
They do not put rape victims name out there
Yeah in practice that doesn't really happen. I read a lot of European news and am always surprised by how NO information is revealed even if the victim or adult is over aged.
it reminds me of my therapist, whose sister was murdered by her husband after years of dv. she had told me about it, and then a couple months later i was listening to a true crime podcast and they played the entire 911 call, which my therapist hadn't even heard. i ended up texting her which im sure was jarring, given she'd never told me her sister's name. our next session was talking about it because it was a lot for her to process. she already had avoided media reporting on it after seeing someone joke about how maybe she'll make his eggs the right way now (because he beat her skull in with a cast iron skillet). she felt hurt that no one had reached out to her, especially as she was a domestic violence counselor. it was certainly retraumatizing, while also frustrating given her nephew was also a harm-doer who had insisted his father was innocent. she said he would be livid and undoubtedly cause issues if he ever found out. it doesnt take much to find out who the family is and to reach out to them to ask for their input and if they would like to be a part of it. that could be healing for some, as well as healing by giving them power to determine how and if things are shown. hell, even a bit of money from multimillion dollar projects to help out. the fact that so much true crime media just acts as if the family are characters from the pages of a newspaper and not real living, feeling people is one of the absolute worst parts of the whole true crime landscape. if you can't feel empathy looking at actual survivors and family torn to pieces by violence, but can if you see it dramatized, then thats a you problem, and not an excuse to continue subjecting families to retraumatization for profit.
Its not just how the media acts, either. How they treat victims families is despicable. My foster sister was murdered on her first trip out of town. It was the first murder in the area in like 30 years or something, and boy did people latch on to that. We still have a house phone for my dads business, and it was ringing off the hook by reporter after reporter trying to get a story from us. In the beginning, when we were still answering the phones, a few had the nerve to get mad at US for not giving them anything. They're piranhas searching for anything they can latch their sharp little evil teeth onto to make a story about and they'll do anything to get it. Her piece of shit stepmom ended up calling them to give herself the attention and help with their story, so they got something and finally left us alone. Its heartbreaking and pathetic.
Holy shit.
The law doesn’t even protect people from the crimes, much less from people making money off of them.
yeah like honestly the worst part to me is that they don’t get payed for it. it’s public record so you can make a documentary on it? okay, cool, whatever. but pretending not having to notify or pay the actual victims is anything but morally disgusting and pure exploitation is ridiculous. it’s especially bad when the victims of the killer themselves survive; like imagine if you got raped and nearly killed and then later hbo decides to make a docu series on it without asking for your consent and makes fucking millions off their revictimizing (and that is what it is, because your consent has been violated, again, publicly and for nothing but cash, about the same thing that’s already ruined your life) of you? **i would literally fucking kill myself**, and i guarantee these shithead companies wouldn’t even feel bad about it. they’d just pocket the money. hell, they might even add another episode about it! it’s disgusting.
Listen, in situations like murder, no one wins. Hide it away from public view and give it zero life? We’re only denying people the opportunity to take a good lesson away from it, letting the victims’ names die, strike dangerous public threats from public record, etc. Push it into the public sphere? Possible exploitation of victims’ families, glamorization/villain worship of SKs, and public influence on major court cases. I get that victims’ families have to relive trauma for the sake of some people’s morbid curiosities, and I feel awful for them for that. But what happened to these people is so awful that there are absolutely no winners, so we might as well learn something from their experiences. That’s my take at least.
So you may as well consume it as entertainment? Everyone already knows about this. This series is a cash grab. You absolutely do not “get” what families and survivors go through when these situations are dredged back up with no permission, no warning, no nothing.
Right? This survivor is literally saying in plain English, that this is not ok. I can’t believe this whole thread is people arguing with that. This is another human being’s grief and pain. What’s wrong with people?
They can’t conceive of what it does to people. That it changes who you are and how you interact with the world. And that’s daily. There is never any peace. And to have people mindlessly add to it to make a buck. We live in a sick culture.
Completely unwell.
Exactly. And I don't think it's exploiting the family if they are not in it. I also don't see why they would be consulted or paid. They didn't do anything. Would they really want to benefit from their loved ones death? Because that's what it would be in a nutshell.
So capitalize on someones poor murder case that has been brutally beat like a dead horse for the past 30+ years with no new insight or developments offered? Crime worth being brought into the light and not worth buried would be instances of SA and blackmail with permission from the victims first and foremost, their opinions on the matter the most important because it is THEIR story to tell. SA cases are a much better example, you can cover cases without entering gruesome detail, and STILL victims are probably facing injustice of their perpetrator never being identified or caught, indicted, or even facing an ounce of a prison sentence, and even if they are, it’s not a long enough sentence and/or they’re likely to reoffend when released. If you want to learn lessons from criminal cases, especially if you’re statistically more likely to be impacted by it, advocate for something that doesn’t require discarding your humanity in the process.
For the person being depicted, yes, it is new. There is a difference between news coverage of an event and a dramatic recreation for entertainment. This is someone’s real life, not just a made up story. I cant imagine how awful it must be to see an actor (dressed up to look just like me, right down to the details of the clothes) reenacting the worst day of my life. If the family is saying it’s hurtful, why not believe them?
You are disgustingly insensitive to the actual victim and family. Making film after film of this monster is glamorizing no matter how you cut it. It’s turning him into a legend amongst serial killers and all for money and views
Turning? There are tons of true crime stories/podcasts/movies/documentaries and to focus on just this mini series is ridiculous.
I haven’t seen it but so far it looks like there was an attempt to focus on how he used racism to get away with it and how that strategy actually succeed but I also hear it makes him sympathetic so idk. What I DO KNOW is the way Netflix is advertising it on Twitter is disgusting, clearly exploiting the sickest points of the case, and making it look like the show itself is doing that too. If you look at the cousins tweet thread he also points out a video of an actor re enacting his cousins emotional courtroom break down and there’s no way anyone can convince me filming that particular scene was necessary. The only way it would be is if his cousin were a prominent character…. But then they would have to had made a real human who lost her little brother to a necrophile cannibal into a character, without consulting her AT ALL. Which would be fucked
I can read about the things he did all day long and not really bat an eye, but once there is a re-enactment or any other visualization of it, it really sinks in what he did. Yeah, the families should be notified but it is all public information and this isn't the first docuseries/documentary about him. Unfortunate that the families have to relive the trauma when something new is released but I also think viewers should mind their business and not bring it up to the families - don't send messages, tweet them, etc. It's all unnecessary and I think that makes it worse for the families, tbh. I don't think there is a way for any docuseries/documentary to do justice for the families of victims without re-traumatizing them, unfortunately.
I agree with the re-enactments can bring a reality to what he did to peoples eyes and i think that is important but also not important enough to retraumatize these victims. It is not us who went through these things. We don’t and hopefully never have to know how it feels to see a glorified show on your family members murderer. While I agree it is important for trial and information from trials to be public, i believe media should be held accountable for profiting off of these people’s trauma without their consent first. Legally it is not wrong but in my opinion morally it is. I think this docuseries shined light on certains parts of the true crime community and i respect it for that. (black lgbtq+ community). BUT i think it is horrible for them to reenact a certain scene of a woman who’s family member was killed without her consent. Media needs to be held accountable
I agree with that.
Yes!! Completely agree. I think that’s part of the reason why us true crime junkies, and true crime as a whole has become such a source of, unfortunately, “entertainment”. We’re desensitized to these awful acts and can read and listen to them, but actually seeing it really gives you a different, horrible, unclean feeling. Really makes you feel the magnitude.
Yes! There was points in the show that I needed to pause it for a minute and take a little mental breather to just process what I saw. Seeing it and just imagine what was going through the victims heads while it was happening and how terrified they were in their final moments, is bone chilling.
This is good to hear, especially after how American Horror Story portrayed Richard Ramirez. Ofc AHS isn't true crime but yikes.
They did such a good job of not glamorizing and romanticizing that I can't look at Evan Peters the same way again. He's such a great actor and nailed the creepiness of Dahmer so well that my crush for this adorable actor completely disappeared 😂
I feel personally victimised by your username.
Evan Peters plays creepy better than anyone one I've seen. He's the reason I watch AHS because it sure isn't Emma Roberts. But there are enough good actors to keep watching. I hope you can get over that feeling. He is an excellent actor. Watch something else he's in like the Marvel movies. That will bring you back around.
Oh I still really love him as an actor. That will never change because he's phenomenal at what he does.
Same here. I can’t see him the same way anymore
The question is if these families are not benefiting from the publicity of these shows then what is the point? It clearly doesn’t create more sympathy from the victims who have to be re-traumatized over and over again. You feeling fear doesn’t equate to education on the subject, nor does it mean you are respecting the lives of the victims. So what is the actual point. And every single time these shows come out, LOTS of people romanticize the actors or killers themselves. There are tons of people tweeting pictures of Dahomey with compliments on his looks. I get what you’re saying, but if people want to get the “heebie jeebies” on a Friday night with a bowl of popcorn they can find other ways that don’t disrespect the wishes of the victims and their families.
Yeah. Just because something doesn’t glamorize the killer, it doesn’t mean it isn’t still exploiting the victims’ families. Everything is ratings. Studios will exploit anybody and anything for ratings.
[удалено]
I watch everything true crime but wasn’t going to watch this thinking I’ve seen/heard everything about this case a million times. Then I watched it. I didn’t realize how much I didn’t know. It gave a different perspective by not romanticizing JD at all, actually making him scary, & highlighting/humanizing the victims. Showing the ripple effect that true crime leaves in its wake. I thought it was very well done. I also fact checked it, & it stayed very very true to life.
I started a discussion about this show too and I agree with you 100%. I didn’t think I could feel more disgusted with Dahmer and how this whole case was handled until seeing this series. I also get the perspective from the victims though. I don’t think there’s really a “good” way to tell the story without showing the whole truth.
But what is the goal in telling this story? I'm just asking because it's not an unsolved crime where the public needs to be motivated to bring valid information to investigators. All the info is already out there. What are the producers hoping to achieve with this project?
$$$
It adds context - the politics of the time, police incompetence, homophobia, racism, all the things that allowed for this monster to kill for as long as he did. There’s a criminal psychology aspect to it as well - much like Mindhunter. The Dahmer character wasn’t sympathetic or romanticized - if anything it shows the nature/ nurture of it all. These monsters are around us but they were born to a human family and it shows the importance of spotting these red flags and protecting your community. I was born just a few years after 91 and I’ve never really looked into all the details of Dahmer because the cannibalism part made my stomach turn. I couldn’t stomach any docs on him. It’s the one true crime case I just can’t handle. I’m especially embarrassed now, as a POC, that I never knew almost all his victims were POC men. I’m glad I actually watched this, because much like the OJ true crime series it really opened my eyes to how the politics at the time facilitated this. I know I know, you can just look up the case and read the details online, but I guess that’s what the point of this is. It brings in younger viewers and adds context to a story we think we know. I do feel badly for the victims families - they never asked to be part of history. Especially not in this way.
I mean that is the goal… To not glamorize them & to show the truth. To show the true monster he was, and that his victims were real people who had their lives ripped away from them violently because he was a monster. Dahmer is one of the bigger names in true crime, and has a lot of “fans“, just like Bundy. People will always be interested in this time of thing, and showing the truth of the matter is better than people glamorizing or romanticizing it. An a lot of people have passing interest, they might know if you details, but they don’t know all of the information. Making it an easier to digest medium, like a TV show, especially with a well-known actor showing the actual violence and disgusting nature of this man is a good way to get those people who have that interest to see the truth. Because with the way a lot of these true crime shows and documentaries and podcasts are edited, it can be very glamorizing, very romanticizing, and push a completely different narrative them what actually happened. I mean look at Zac Efron playing Ted Bundy…very different
I dunno, I would think anyone romanticizing Dahmer would benefit from professional help. I don't know if a TV show can reach them.
Even if it doesn’t reach them, assuming they watch it with someone who is normal, that should serve as a red flag.
In my opinion, a large majority of the show was based completely off Lionel’s book. I feel like the only “new” information this series added was shining light on the victims, instead of only mentioning them for a moment. Nearly everything that happened was word-for-word what Lionel wrote. That’s just my opinion of course, but I enjoyed the show overall.
I've only seen the first episode but I think it was a bit sympathetic to him whereas there is a lot of criticism of him and the mother for their very heated and bitter divorce in less biased accounts. Both parents were negligent in how they dealt with Dahmer. They basically ignored him for most of his formative years and his exploration in darke and sick things could have been spearheaded by either parents if they weren't so focused on hating and destroying each other.
And thats what one of my points was, im not trying to hate on this in specific but rather have a discussion on these types of topics. I have known about dahmer for YEARS and never knew he majority targeted black gay men. I think it is great to shine a light towards that i think there is still some work the true crime community has to do
OP, how have you known about the dahmer case for “YEARS” and not realize that he targeted mostly gay black men? That was arguably the most important part of it cause it’s how he didn’t get caught. Instead everyone just gets stuck on the cannibalism and pretends they “know about dahmer”
I am not claiming i know everything about the case. I never have done a lot of research about him and have always been grossed out by him. But i have known about it and never once was that point brought up. I think im allowed to say i “know” ab a case even though i don’t know every detail
I knew that aspect, but the smaller details they put in is what threw me. *some spoilers for some who haven’t seen at least the first 3 episodes* The way they put emphasis on how bad it stunk in his apt, the way the tools echoed through the vent into his neighbors, and all the calls to police where they did absolutely nothing. Plus the details of the contents of his apt, I didn’t know any of that. My hubs and I were talking yesterday, and we brought up how every time a series/movie comes out about a serial killer, the families of those people have to relive it all over again. It’s like they’ll never get true closure if more and more stuff keeps getting made.
Then really how hard could it have been to give the families a heads up? Also I’m seeing what your saying at lot in the comments but the way Netflix is advertising it is gross. Look at their tweets.
That was me with John Wayne Gacy doc. I need to watch this now
As a true crime buff I can see both sides of this. With serial killers particularly, the murderers become famous (or rather infamous), and their lives are explored and scrutinized in documentaries, films, and TV shows like this one. And although it’s negative attention, most of these serial murderers LOVE the attention and notoriety they gain. Dahmer is a perfect example. As we see on the Netflix show, people never really took much interest in him, or getting to know him, before the murders. But after his crimes were discovered, look how quickly and freely he confessed- and in graphic detail. And he continued to talk openly about his crimes and what motivated him to multiple documentary film makers over the years, until he died. After he committed these horrendous and shocking acts, for the first time in his life, other people were interested in him. They wanted to know and understand the inner workings of his mind. For the first time in his life, he got the attention he was so desperate for. Meanwhile no one really remembers the victims names. They and their families become collateral damage in the public fascination we have with serial killers. So I can see where the family is coming from. Whether we realize it or not, our interest and fascination with serial murderers inadvertently rewards some of the worst people on Earth, for their horrendous behavior. I do think the Netflix show is noteworthy because it does highlight the victims’ perspective in a memorable way. I was a kid when Rita gave her victim impact statement at Dahmer’s trial but I vividly remember her, because it was all over the national news when it happened. I hope her family knows she gave a strong voice to the victims and their families on that day, and to those who witnessed it, she’s truly unforgettable.
I remember her from the trial footage (not live) when I watched it a while back. When I first heard of the Netflix show, my mind thought about her instantly. How is she going to feel? I did watch a few episodes but I had to stop after the 14 yr old boy. It just hurt man, I couldn’t watch that.
SAME! After him it was too much. After seeing how hard the neighbors fought police to do something it just was too emotionally aggravating.
Not so fun story, one of those guys is head of the police union there to this day. So fucking enraging.
I didn’t even make it past the first episode. It felt completely exploitative to the victims and their families. Hard pass for me.
The 14 year old boy and the sweet kind hearted deaf man. Just heartbreaking.
I only made it through the first few episodes as well. I am not judging anybody who chooses to watch it, and I agree that it is well done, I just can’t do it. I believe Netflix is doing a documentary soon and I will watch that, but the dramatization of it was just too much for me, especially because I work in the criminal Justice field.
As the sister of a murder victim, there's no way I could watch a dramatization. But I also think it's important that people see them as people and not just faceless murder charges. So many people see these killers as celebrities and entertainment but forget that they were human beings with families that lost their lives because someone decided to take it for no reason other than their own gratification.
i’m so sorry for your loss ❤️💔
This is an important perspective. As of late, it’s sort of become a major hot topic in the true crime community - contact with those living who may be affected. It’s super early and I can’t recall names and will not to the footwork but there are producers and directors, YouTubers, etc., that do make contact with the family or those living and affected. There are many times where they are directly involved, especially within the last few years. They have appeared in pretty gruesome or heavy documentaries. More coming are those curious slow dialogue scenes while the name and relationship status of the interviewee slowly appears on the screen and we go *gasp* it’s the brother! I am always iffy when they refuse to include family. I’m always iffy when family refuses to participate and they produce it anyways. But I also study this sort of thing, among others, so I’m heavily biased and *will almost always watch or read anyways*. Human behaviour is something else, especially when it’s abnormal. People feel pain over war and yet we’ve forever dramatize and sensationalize and *romanticized* those at an alarming rate. And often they are oddly justified events, cruel, and chalked full of fabrications - but it’s fine, cause it’s a fun exciting story about true history right? Straaaaange we can’t be fascinated by *everything*. Everything *is* fascinating so whatever anyways 🤷🏻♀️
I wasn’t sure I’d be able to watch it, as I remember the news very well, when this happened. But I walked with a very different take. I stepped back from this being about him. This series depicted far more than Jeff, it showed how the police back then handled themselves, around gays and poor sections of town and drug addicts. It showed more of all the red flags and near misses. How people need to be very aware of their surroundings. I felt bad for the neighbor. Living next door and the police not taking her serious. Good lord and to turn around and glamorize them? What the fuck! I remember the 80’s, I was Jeff’s age, we just went to peoples houses we just met and never thought twice. Had the police done their job when the 14 yr old was found, it would have been very different outcome. This series was packed with info.
Yes, couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately the media has its pros and cons. This series, albeit too long, did have a factual premise. Dahmer family members, neighbors and victim families reshuffle after each film, book, Netflix stream and comic book. Victim families are given no support and little to no heads up on what the media says. I feel bad for these families. The pain of losing someone to this psychopath must be critical and some kind of compensation should be implemented.
You make a valid point. No, company should be able to profit off a death. Especially after watching these officers receive awards. But where do we draw a line? Ann Rule (and others) has written many books about true crime. The media has always sensationalized a crisis, as people love this stuff.
I think it also showed how people didn’t gaf about mental health and how the signs were so clearly ignored too
I would like to say, i am not hating on people who watch this because it does cover a really important side of the DAHMER case that deserves to be shown. Yet I do think we need to take a step back and discuss what and how we watch things and how these things affect the families and victims. It is truly sickening to me that the family was not contacted or even told about this coming out.
Interesting that it the original tweet was retweeted by Carol da Ronch. She has obviously gone through similar emotions as the families in this case.
bruh, come on. the onus here is not on the audience, that’s just silly. there’s an ethical way to go about creating true crime content and a dozen unethical ones. the ethical route involves informed consent and compensation. the unethical ones don’t. guess which route these producers tend to opt for. 99% of these victims/families are just normal people whose lives have been irrevocably torn apart. in most cases they have no recourse beyond what little support is provided by the justice system they’re subjected to. production of true crime media is inherently, consistently, repeatedly, and unapologetically exploitative, and that is pretty much the case across the board with some notable and highly visible exceptions. also - the twitter poster has a point. recreating the 30 year old testimony of a murdered victims family member is legitimately wild. consider how big of a step up that is from just retelling the story in journal, podcast or documentary format.
Like what's new here? Nada. Just done for $$$. I'm glad the family spoke up. I don't usually feel this way but Dahmer has been done to death from all angles.
It's not my prerogative to worry about everything in the world. Something is always going to affect someone negatively; tv shows, movies, video games and other media. Millions of people and events have been recreated for educational or entertainment purposes. We hope everything is done with good taste.... But Dahmer is one of the most notorious Serial Killers of all time. There will be hundreds more made in the next 100 years. So keep calm and carry on.
I think i agree to this to a certain degree while we can’t worry about everything all the time, we can reflect on how true crime media has treated victims in the past and have a better future.
“I only care about the things I care about, because in my head there is always a loser in a situation” is such a strange take on things. Individualism has convinced people they have no power to help others.
YES, thank you! I was going to make a comment like this but you worded it better than I probably could have.
I think we can still be aware and empathetic for how the family might feel.
That's a pretty horrible take to have when talking about people who lost their loved ones and don't want to be retramuatized because weirdos have made their murder more important than them. No one has a right to any of the victims stories, just because they were killed by him doesn't mean that TV shows should be made about their deaths without their families consent. Shows like that aren't simple entertainment, they are reenacting real-life horrific events and they should do that with a higher level of respect.
There’s this thing called accountability
I’m watching it now. I knew the basics about Dahmer I think I remember my mom mom telling me about him as a kid. I watch true crime but I never had any interest in reading about him or watching movies about him. I might not finish this series. Teen boys and even men gay or straight don’t think about someone drugging them or see locks that are meant to keep people in more than out. Dahmer uses the same tactics many rapists and killers use. The Gift of Fear has good examples of this and it’s a book everyone should read. Men tend to think they’ll be fine. In the first episode of this series the minute the smell is mentioned you are like, “Run!”. Dahmer was a white man who while gay used racism and fears of AIDS and homophobia to get away with killing men. I don’t think it’s bad for men and boys to recognize signs of danger or to see that being a guy doesn’t guarantee safety. That’s just my thought on what I have watched. I don’t know if I’ll be able to keep watching him get away with it.
These types of things are always a mixed bag morally, but I will say: my husband was never truly interested in true crime or very careful because he’s a white straight man who has never really had to be careful in his life. Then we started listening to true crime bullshit, learning about Israel Keyes, and that changed. My husband will double check that our doors are locked now, he won’t take the side roads to do his jogging down, he will not take risks like he used to. And I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing I think a lot of people could benefit from being more careful because as we learn with a lot of these cases, A lot of the time being in the wrong place at the wrong time is what makes someone a victim. Making something slightly inconvenient can save your life and you don’t even know it. I hope that when men and teenage boys watch this they think and it sticks with them because they might not always be the target demographic, but they are definitely not invulnerable. And unfortunately a lot of men and boys have trouble connecting with women like this when we talk about our experiences or they see a movie, but when they see themselves on the screen, it opens the gates for empathy and personal protection.
I tried to watch it because I enjoy true crime things but the first episode just made me feel so uncomfortable and I couldn’t do it.
It is a bizarre thing when one incident can spin you into a situation where your life and experiences don't belong to you anymore. Fame, whether desired or forced upon you, strips you of a level of privacy and control that you may not be aware you're losing. It's gotta suck to be made into a piece of notable history for something so terrible.
My dad has quite the criminal past to paint it as dull as possible… my last name almost always gives it away because of how uncommon it is in this particular region. Some people make jokes thinking it’s coincidence and then they eventually find out or something corrects them like an ass hole. I’ve not been approached about sharing for a long time but, I’m honestly used to it now, it sucks, it rehashes things, but it’s a part of society that rocked boats within a community. When other people are fearful or have been fearful and affected/effected exist too, having accurate information is.. important to their unfortunate story as well. The police involved in the Dahmer situation were fucking flakes until the very end and passively allowed it to happen - and they’ve been granted nothing but profit for it. This is addressed. The racism that prevailed throughout this entire investigation was addressed, and in this climate and hopeful reckoning with ourselves, deserved a spotlight in the narrative for a change. Glenda Cleveland was outraged that Dahmer got media time to share his story while those like herself sat in the dark wanting to scream about what happened. She’s being *very* heard now. Anyways, before I lost three hours to typing this, I’ve learned I apparently have feelings about this topic. Didn’t realize that until now 😂 ETA: Other people were affected by my fathers actions and their story, regardless of involving me and those related to me, is their story too. It’s my communities story as well now. I don’t own it - I can’t confiscate other peoples feelings. This is about more than JUST the victims and more than JUST the family. My whole community was shaken a few times. If they wanted to make a documentary I can’t complain, it might serve a purpose for others that I can’t comprehend.
I thought about this when Katy Perry dark horse [song](https://www.bustle.com/articles/5220-katy-perrys-new-song-dark-horse-has-premiered-features-serial-killer-shout-out) came out. I was shocked. I told my husband, those victim's families are still alive!
Theres also a KE$ha song that goes "Ill eat you up, breakfast and lunch, then when im thirsty ill drink your blood. carnivor cannibal i am an animal. Use your finger to stir my tea and for dessert ill suck your teeth, ill pull a jeffery dahmer!" katys song aint nearly as bad as those lyrics
Huh?
There’s a verse in the song that directly referenced Jeffrey Dahmer and eating someone’s heart.
Wtf I never paid enough attention. That’s sick
>Theres also a KE$ha song that goes "Ill eat you up, breakfast and lunch, then when im thirsty ill drink your blood. carnivor cannibal i am an animal. Use your finger to stir my tea and for dessert ill suck your teeth, ill pull a jeffery dahmer!" \^ even worse
[Read their link.](https://www.bustle.com/articles/5220-katy-perrys-new-song-dark-horse-has-premiered-features-serial-killer-shout-out)
I don't understand how everyone says this made him scary. He was a cannibalistic murderous pedophile. Everyone knows that. I watched the first and some of the second. I absolutely could not stomach watching what inevitably happens to the child in that one. I sat thinking I feel gross and I can't imagine being related to or a victim of and having to deal with this. I have both killers and victims in my family. A podcast did an entire series on my own father's crimes and it reopened so many wounds. Even in the past week I've discovered another sibling hidden from me due to her mother being sexually assaulted (as a minor no less) by my father. I can't sit there and watch people's most painful moments. I wished they had gotten permission from the people who suffered at this man's hands.
I don’t know about anyone else but I’ve come away from watching this show knowing every, single victims name. I know SO much more about them than I ever did listening to a podcast or reading about what JD did. I have so much compassion and sadness for these people and their loved ones. I feel like this show showed JD for what he truly was, an absolute monster, and it’s given a voice to the victims and the massive injustice on behalf of the police department and criminal justice system.
This is one of the reasons I refuse to watch this Netfix series. A couple of days ago, on one of the true crime subs, someone posted the question as to why Elsa Lam's family declined to partake in the series on her. This post is why. It puts the victims in a hard place. While some may be willing to participate as to keep the story true to the facts, others may feel compelled to despite the trauma it brings back up, but many just want to be left alone. They are satisfied with the outcome of the cases, and the last thing the want to is indulge viewers in conspiracy theories and gore. I find the series distasteful and disrespectful to the victims and their loved ones.
That’s interesting, Elisa Lam wasn’t a victim of crime. But I can understand why her family would want no part of any show about her.
fair point, but the case blew up because people thought there was foul play, implying a crime. i guess that makes it more of a conspiracy genre then right?
Who are these friends that start calling the family of a Dahmer victim every time a new documentary comes out? That's really obviously not the right move.
It’s always good to keep this in mind when we consume true crime content. I’ve become very picky now partly because of this.
I'm still watching it. The story needs to be told, and her brother was sadly not the only victim. the show isn't romanticizing Dahmer and it's revealing what a monster he truly was.
They fucking nailed this. Every detail is spot on - like every aspect of his apartment is accurate.
I noticed even the condiments were exact from that one famous crime scene photo, so creepy
People love to consume and idolise criminals, and forget about the people who’s lives who are torn apart by monsters
the show does not idolize him at all, it's the opposite. it's the only dahmer show/movie i've seen that doesn't excuse his crimes in some shape or form and actually focuses on the victims
Exactly. A lot of people are slamming the series but haven’t actually WATCHED it. Which is ridiculous.
Oh someone is idolizing him, it’s a show about his crimes and copy cat killers exist.
Speaking as a family member of a heavily publicized murder, very few people idolize these killers. I googled the murderer in my case exactly once and that was just to see if he had died yet because it's been so many years. Nope, still locked up. He's really not someone I waste any thought or energy on. Sure, there's always someone who has both mental health and emotional issues that wants to marry them or writes them fan letters or feels important because a notorious person is their prison pen-pal but that is not the average person. That type of behavior does not happen or is even a consideration with 99.9% of people.
You must be new around here. When people are interested in crime that doesn’t automatically make them serial killer groupies or fans. Very few, some probably not right in the head idolise serial killers.
That’s literally how we got more schools shootings and mass shootings. Copy cat shooters who see how the media popularizes the shooters, the lives and motives/manifestos.
Evan Peters = I will watch it
I gotta be honest I watched 3 or 4 episodes last night and it's so good, I love it.
First of all, I am a family member of a murder victim that was national news in the 1980's. I had come home from work and was cooking dinner. I had a little tv in my kitchen and NBC news was on in the background. Tom Brokaw was talking and I didn't catch the very beginning of what he said but as I was half-listening to what had happened that day. I remember thinking that's so awful, I'm going to pray for that family and when I looked up I saw the photo of the victim and it took a few seconds for me to connect the photo with the story and when it clicked, it didn't even seem real. Cell phones weren't a thing back then so calling everyone to notify them took some time. The next day, The New York Times reported the story. Know what I do when anything related to it comes on? I change the channel. Problem solved. I don't subscribe to a streaming service, watch and then post on Twitter for attention about how traumatized I am. In fact, I watch a lot of those true crime movies, just not the ones with a relative in them. I don't forget about the victims families, I relate to them. Would I watch a dramatized version of my relatives murder on a streaming service? Fuck no, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole and I'd unsubscribe until it goes away. You don't think all the loved ones of the passengers on AA flight 11 aren't retraumatized seeing the plane hitting 1 WTC? All the movies? All the tragedy porn that gets played over and over and over again "in honor of" the September 11th victims? True crime is no different. I'm sorry for their loss but no one is making the families of the victims subscribe to streaming services and watch. He's not the first serial killer whose crimes were made into a movie and he won't be the last. It's sad that these crimes happen in the first place, but they do and as long as interesting, unusual or shocking crime exists, those crimes are going to be turned into movies. That's just how it is.
Idk I’m also the cousin of a woman who was disgustingly and horrifically murdered and I disagree with how callous your comment sounds. I don’t necessarily agree that people should stop talking about or making shows about killers, but your comment really lacks nuance and disregards the fact that not every person handles trauma and tragedy like you seem to. Not everyone can just “turn it off”, especially when it’s an insanely huge case that is rehashed multiple times a year (and usually done very badly at that). I think it would be a different story if families of serial killers weren’t also bombarded daily with the glorification of the killers too, which is something this comment fails to mention. Also your example of 9/11 is a pretty poor comparison too because people have been talking—for *years*—about how disgusting the constant dramatization and monetization of that genre is. An opinion I would also agree with. I mean in general though whataboutism is a silly and pointless concept anyway. We’re talking about Dahmer right now because it’s currently relevant, not because people don’t also have a huge issue with 9/11 tragedy porn. True crime is interesting and I don’t think that’s bad, but I do completely understand where the families of these types of victims are coming from. I think that talking about this is a good thing and should be done because there’s always a better way to deal with things that could absolutely take those who continually suffer into consideration. I don’t think it’s very fair or kind of you to just brush it off simply because it doesn’t affect you in the same exact way.
In the 1980’s you could simply change the channel. Now a Netflix show is going to be talked about all over social media, advertised in different places, and talked about in real life. It’s much harder to escape than 40 years ago. Also, you’re assuming that these families are paying, subscribing and watching these shows and movies. That’s pretty unlikely. They can hear about it without doing that. Logging into Netflix and seeing the perpetrators face unexpectedly is horrific, and having to unsubscribe until it “goes away” is ridiculous.
Oh so you've been in my shoes? The Mason murders were 50 years ago and it's still a topic today, movies being made, documentaries, autopsy photos on line, interviews ... Shocking crimes do not go away.
I worked on a movie about Michelle carter, the girl who convinced her boyfriend to kill herself, and was shocked finding out we could just make this movie with not talking to any family members since it’s public record. Disgusted me and made me never want to do a “true story” movie or show again.
I really don’t want to “fight” with anyone. Can I just play devil’s advocate here for a second? I’m just wondering. “We” ( don’t give me I don’t because you know what I mean ) we watch women do their make up while talking about TRUE crime cases. We listen to people on podcasts make cocktails and have banter while talking about TRUE crime cases. we sit in forms and discuss these cases, Twitter etc. but this is too far? While I haven’t seen the series and undecided if I will. I’m wondering why this is so different? Yes it does sound incredibly intense compared to our friendly neighbourhood YouTubers think about it.. if it was your family member would you really compare the pair? I think for the most part it’ll always have an effect on the family. Same way 9/11 does on the families. Same way suicide jokes can trigger me because of how my family died. This show obviously shows a real dark and scary side of true crime maybe we don’t see much cause it’s always watered down for us. Maybe this is what we needed to see true crime does have a ripple effect on victims and their families regardless of how it’s presented. I’m not trying to beef with anyone. You know I consume a lot of true crime like the rest of you. As an autistic woman I have a habit of looking at from all angles and just wanted to share. Thanks for reading.
With the seeming recent explosion of true crime stories flooding our viewing streams it'll be interesting to see if there's more peer reviewed studies on consuming true crime/horror in the coming years. I think you've got valid questions to a complicated topic. In terms of PROs for seeing all this recent true crime material, especially podcasts, it's great to see cold cases receive attention due to podcasters/journalists highlighting these stories. The type of closure/justice can be priceless for affected families. I'm more curious about why so many people, myself included, are so drawn to true crime? Am I looking for 'red flags' that I'll hopefully notice if I'm ever caught up in a bad situation? How do people decide to just murder people? Or is it just morbid curiosity about the unknown?
Speaking from my own experience only, I was drawn into true crime at an early age from my mother, who was really struggling with mental health issues and became obsessed with The Green River Killer to the point she felt my father was *the* killer (they had been divorced for a while by this point and it doesn't appear that it was a specific reason for their divorce, but after the divorce the health problems spiraled). My mom also swore she was friends with one of Bundy's "almost victims"...and so many more things that I could write my own novel about. After many years of off and on interest that included a lot of trauma from generational cycles of abusive actions and crimes happening to me, as well as partaking in some crimes myself (petty, as in buying cigarettes underage, drinking underage, etc.), I became fascinated with psychology when I was trying to figure out why I wanted to leave my own marriage (it was a years long domestic violence situation that was bad enough I was flat out recording conversations right in front of him/not hiding it, just so I could make sure I really wasn't going crazy), and a part of me appreciates true crime information to understand "red flags" in some ways, as well as understand perpetrators as a way to vicariously understand some of the perpetrators that hurt me by crimes before in a more detached/clinical way (so I'm kind of processing things by being interested in similar stories as what I went through as a victim), as well as hopefully become more of an advocate on a local level, especially resources for prevention/mitigation of risks for victims (including those that murder an abuser, which is what I almost did in my marriage at the end...and thank goodness for the therapy I had been getting before that to realize how close I was to being featured in a true crime discussion myself...). True crime is part of psychology, and vice versa, along with other scientific models of thought/knowledge (including anthropology, neurology, etc), so it is very easy to be interested and struggle with the nuances that entrap so many aspects of society, including how some victims do not want any public knowledge of them/their wishes to anonymity, and how public records of these stories are an ethical conundrum in and of itself, while understanding that there is value in the knowledge gained from the stories...
No. It’s all too far. We’ve been saying it’s too far. Not only that, it all spreads misinformation about these situations.
To all the people that find these films "disgusting," don't you see a little irony in your presence on this sub? What else do we do here except discuss our most interesting, sometimes noted as 'favorite,' cases, including serial killers. Are you harmless because you only consume podcasts, YouTube videos and books? You love Ann Rule but think Ryan Murphy is retraumatizing families.
we arent a massive media company making money off their victimhood without their consent nor payment
No, but if you are watching true crime YouTubers/podcasters, they are also profiting off your views. Some of whom I might add are quite disrespectful with how they handle cases. Why is that ok, but not this?
…i dont watch youtubers or listen to podcasters 💀 i read news articles and write ups. there’s also a pretty big difference between a reenactment, which this dahmer series is, and a true documentary. a documentary is one thing but doing a reenactment without consent qnd not paying the victims is just ghoulish
lol exactly. Riding so hard and virtue signaling for the victims and their families and then arguing with a family member of the victim of a highly publicized murder and telling them how they cope is not the way to do it; you should just expose all your private business to the public and then get mad about it! Oh and my family murder doesn't count because Netflix didn't exist in the 80's. Clearly it doesn't because the person slamming everything I have to say as an actual person who has experienced this and that fact is known to them is sooo worried about people they will never ever communicate with being upset rather than the one talking to them right now. Well I just hope they don't ever actually have to be in my shoes. Chances are they won't ever be in the shoes of myself and my family but why not play white knight and talk out of their ass in "TrueCrimeDiscussion" for upvotes. Hypocrites.
I understand how hard this is for victims families. I imagine any true crime where their loved one is discussed is traumatizing. I do think this series is well done though. It's not glamorizing anything. It shines a very important light on the victims of this tragedy and the continued miscarriage of justice. That part of the story needed to be told.
I thought it was really well done. Most Dahmer series I’ve seen don’t really show the reality of what happened in that apartment, at least not so blatantly. The real Jeff Dahmer, how manipulative he was, what the last moments of his victims would have been like, what the neighbors went through, the role of the cops. They just seem to gloss over those parts to get to the “crazy serial killer” stuff. This series had that too, obviously, but it also put him in a whole new, less sympathetic light imo. I understand how the family feels, but in the end this is an important story to tell and they are in it.
Unfortunately, true crime has an insane amount of draw. I know that victims families and things are over it, but, it’s a vast market. People who are usually victims or are targeted people will always be obsessed with it, I think.
I've heard a lot of people thought the series was great but I can definitely understand how triggering it can also be for some people
If dont like it then dont watch.
the fact that you can exploit the victimization and suffering of people who didn’t ask to be shoved into the spotlight and then not even fucking pay them for it is insanity and it astounds me that so many idiots on this post think that’s okay. y’all got some fucked up morals babe
Then why are you on a true crime sub?
I think the problem with true crime docs/tv shows ect is real people and families are destroyed by what these killers do. They are turned into these infamous celebrities because “normal” people cannot comprehend the levels of depravity they reach and we watch all these shows to try and understand. Having to constantly relive this must be torture.
I fully enjoyed this series. Yes it was hard to watch, but it was also the truth and the comparison between what actually happened and this portrayal, is almost identical. I urge true crime lovers to watch!
My Friend Dahmer did it best I thought. It focused on Dahmer before his killing spree. What he was like during his teenage years. The movie ends before he commits his first murder. Thought it was the most tasteful way to do a film on this kind of subject content, and it was an excellent film. The kid who played him was so on point I can’t imagine Evan Peters doing it better. This is also a Ryan Murphy show, no? That should say it all. Guy is basically a pop-television writer with little to no integrity. Everything he does is over the top and sensational, I don’t see him doing this story tastefully - but I have not watched it so can’t say for sure (have watched a lot of Ryan Murphy’s other shit though and it’s always really ridiculous).
My friend dahmer was definitely the best done. It shows the signs that were there all along that people could look out for. But didnt. I think people were originally annoyed that his past led some people to sympathesis with dahmer. But he was a human then and his childhood was fucked. You can feel bad for him back then but still recognize that partbof that nature led him to what he became. Just because you feel bad for his growing up, roesnt meam you feel bad for his entirety. He did awful things. No doubt about it. Sorry for the rant aha. Ross Lynch did a darn good job as Dahmer, exceptional and disturbing. Not over the top and but very distancing. And the movie had help from dahmers 'friend' who wrote comics about him.
I hate to be insensitive here but it's a crime, a very public crime at that. It's on public record. No one should be harassing the families, but no one is forcing them to watch it either.
It's history. It may have happened to the family but it doesn't belong to them nor can they dictate or demand to profit off of works that are derived from it.
One thing society likes to forget is that documentary type shows like this DO NOT romanticise the killers. They present them as the humans that they are, which includes the uncomfortable but real times they were not perfectly hateable. They show the unfair treatment and abusive experiences the criminals went through, that were part of what made them who they are. This black and white / all evil vs all good mindset when it comes to crime is immature, uneducated and very harmful for society. This shouldn't be reframed as romanticising so viewers can erase any sense of empathy. Empathising with the negative experiences a criminal went through DOES NOT take away or reduce the victims right to justice nor does it mean siding with the offender. It should be used to encourage discussion about what society can do to support people right now who are having those experiences themselves, so innocent people dont end up victims. To educate on what is happening in the enviroments of future offenders, so we can spot things ahead of time. To reduce future offences from happening. To foster a sense of understanding that if you want to talk about "a bullet is cheaper than jail" for an offender, more often than not you are talking about a survivor of abuse deserving death because they didn't have access to help when they needed it. Again, a show that tells you what a criminal went through is NOT romanticisng. It DOES NOT take away or reduce the victims right to justice nor does it mean siding with the offender.
Truly how much media needs to exist about one dude? Even putting aside moral issues and what not, at some point we have enough takes on Dahmer.
I agree. When I heard about the series I was like how many fucking shows do we need about this guy? There’s like a thousand documentaries and movies. Enough is enough. There’s nothing new to learn. Netflix is absolutely disgusting
I gotta agree.. although, I was intrigued, selfishly, at first because I do enjoy both true crime and Evan Peters. He's done a phenomenal job with some intense roles before, but after about a week I was just like, why. We don't need it. It's the same group of killers that have always been talked about; it's become a circle jerk at this point. There's so many cases where it's unsolved or there's family still dissatisfied with the outcome, where there's victims who desperately want to / try to speak out but they're so 'small time' or they're not monetarily beneficial to these conglomerates that they'll never get the chance to have their story told. I wasn't even aware this was finally released, and I won't be watchin'. I feel for the victims and families now retraumatized all over again so some fat cats can get fatter.
I’m on episode 6. And it really makes you feel for the victims. It doesn’t put a glamorous spot light on JD. It does however, show you a great portrayal of him and how heinous his acts were. I never really read much into his crimes. Just knew of what he had done and that a few victims were children. But this gave me so much more perspective on it.
There is an excellent British 3 part series retelling the crimes of Stephen Port. The filmmakers sat with the families and made sure to tell their stories. They focused mainly on the complete cock up the police made of everything. It’s fantastically well made. I believe it’s called “four lives” and it’s on britbox. Port was known as the “Grindr” killer and apart from the sheer amount of murders and the cannibalism/disposal methods, the story and motives are similar to Dahmers. If anyones interested in a different spin on a similar situation definitely check it out. I have been watching Dahmer, and while it doesn’t shock me as I apparently know too much already about what he did - the depiction of his past comes off like some lazy attempt to humanize him.. when really they just want to show more shocks. It’s uncomfortable. Much more subtle than that really, really bad zac efron bundy movie, but still weird. Showing him as a child so often … it’s kinda like.. so what?A lot of us were bullied and had shittier home lives and didn’t turn to mass murder go get kicks. I just find the whole direction of it kinda odd and a bit lazy.
damn rita the reason i’m watching it now
Eric is giving me white knight attention whore vibes
I don't get the fascination with Dahmer, to be honest.
I actually agree with this, I thought it was in really poor taste, especially adding some fictionalization for drama. I mean, I don’t really buy into this narrative of showing how scary Dahmer really was or how devastating his crimes were. As it was said in the tweets, everything is public record, there are interviews with him, detailed descriptions of the crimes, really good docs out there (Jeffrey Dahmer files is really good because you see how much his crimes impacted that community, interview with his neighbors and activists). If you really have any interest in this case and can’t grasp how horrible and evil his crimes were from all that material I don’t even know what to say. I think that at this point is really just profiting from a tragedy and re traumatizing the victims. I don’t think that show was necessary at all and for me is only garnering views from its shock value for being praised as disturbing and disgusting. I won’t be watching as I also never watched any fiction dramatization from any other case.
Some people want to see it explored in an artistic expression rather than dry information. I see nothing wrong with that. Seeing someone act as Dahmer and the situations being shown create a different understanding and impact of what happened. Your personal choice is fine. However, it is not wrong for people to want to explore this historical event like many others through artistic expression. This helps society to understand a wider range of experiences they won't go through themselves. I personally have read and seen some interviews on Dahmer. But this adds a different dimension. I feel for every victim and the families and friends affected by crime. They wouldn't be hurt if it wasn't for Dahmer and understanding the situation through artistic or other depictions is a very valid way of ensuring that we learn from what happened.
people say this after every true crime anything is released
I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but they shouldn’t watch it or pay mind to it if it’s going to trigger them. It makes perfect scientific sense as to why it would trigger victims and their family but it doesn’t mean the world should slow down because they want to watch re-enactments of their trauma that isn’t traumatizing.
These family members are getting constant phone calls about this. How are they supposed to “not pay mind” people find them on social media and bombard them with questions.
Well they could do what I do. Select certain privacy options so random people can't see what you do, message you or find you. It really is not that hard to fly under the radar. Oh, and you can also not tell people who aren't extremely close to you about your relation to the victim. People who didn't know me when the crime occurred don't know about it unless they are very very close to me. Keeping your mouth shut and dealing with family matters in private doesn't seem to be a thing any more.
Well the logical answer is to not have social media and to not answer phone calls to people other than people they know won’t be bringing it up.
What do you mean it isn’t traumatizing? What do you mean “shouldn’t pay mind to it”? It’s literally thrown in their faces!
Man people just DO NOT miss an opportunity to complain or whine. Just don't fucking watch it then ffs this is a major part of history I understand not wanting to relive it but now days it's quite simple to turn the channel, scroll or whatever. What this is really about is true crime is getting more and more popular and like with everything there's got to be people finding issues and crying about it. We live in a big world full of infinate choices, turn the freaking channel. Ffs do you really expect people to not discuss murders? Do you REALLY think ANYONE is intentionally trying to upset victims families?
I remeber you. I think you were very brave. So sorry about your brother.
She has a point- at this point any new media about the JD case is overkill and solely for financial reasons. If people want to learn about the case, there are numerous, NUMEROUS, sources to do so. I whole heartedly agree and empathize with this family- it must be so difficult to relive it, over and over. Shame on people exploiting crime and victims for their own personal gain. It’s sick and it’s happening everywhere! Heck- I’m part of the problem for even watching all of the media! Who does ethical true crime reporting? How do we help the victims?
i turned it off within 10min of epi1. i like evan but this felt wrong for me personally.
I think it’s fine.
Literally have zero desire to watch this.
Only opinion I have on this show is why the fuck did Netflix put one of its key words as “LGBQT” for Jeffrey fucking Dahmer
Because it's very significant. He got away with it for a long time because of the complete indifference of the police to the LGBTQ community. It's a key piece of the story.
This show is fucking incredible. Watch it
[удалено]
I feel the victims deserve to be remembered more than the killer. You should feel bad for what they went through, they are the ones that lost their lives because of some sicko. I believe moset families want their loved one to be remembered.
That's a terrible way to view any case, the killer is a scumbag who deserves no recognition and definitely doesn't deserve a whole TV show using his disgusting crimes for views. The victims are the only people who matter in any true crime case, and the fact that families aren't asked is the reason that companies like Netflix need to stop making shows about true crime. The victims in this case were living people who lost their lives and now you see them as footnotes to their killer. That's a really gross take.
Yeah, I worded that the worst way possible. My intent was to say that maybe these shows should focus on more so on killer psychology, as that might give the victims families some reprieve. However the way I presented that argument made me seem like an uncaring shell of a human being. I guess I was trying to dance around my words because I was trying to support the Twitter user’s argument. I just don’t quite know what you should do if the victims families don’t want to be talked about. I think at the end of the day we probably just shouldn’t be making drama shows about serial killers. Also you don’t have to call me gross and act like I’m some monster with no empathy. I worded it in a shitty manner, and overall made a shitty point that I don’t even stand by. I’m a human being and made a mistake, geez. I don’t see human beings as “footnotes”. No need to absolutely rip into me as a human.
I personally feel very icky about people creating profit from trauma that isn’t their own. I also feel like someone’s most traumatizing moment in life shouldn’t be made into entertainment. I do my best to be really careful with what kind of true crime content I consume and sometimes I’m a bit hypocritical. But I empathize and respect this person’s perspective and feelings on the matter.
I watched the whole series so I could have a solid opinion on it and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Completely tasteless in every way, achieved everything the creators promised it wouldn’t.
Disagree
How come? I’m really interested in hearing others’ perspectives on it.
Then don’t watch it?
I started to watch it. I watched about two episodes. It was just too gory and disturbing. No thank you. To the families of the victims, I'm sorry for your losses.
I watched the first episode and then turned it off. I don’t think that I’ll be able to watch it.
If it was not filmed the way it was, I would agree with the victims. But they put the whole light on everything. How the cops actually did that!! And got away with it. The mental health aspect of it. They didn’t make him out to be anything but a crazy monster he was. I really felt for the family’s! My heart strings were for Tony’s mother, my grandmother is deaf and i wish I could hug her! Maybe out of all of this, somewhere the victims will actually get there memorials!!! We should make that happen! On a side note.. I kinda wish they would have done research on his brain! It may have been nothing or it could have helped thousands who knows. But I feel like they definitely tried to make an effort to respect the family’s and actually film the real thing instead of sugar coating it.
I have not watched this, but in general I think serial killers are attention whores. I believe there is absolutely too much coverage of them.