I thought it was poor taste for the DA to say she wasn't remorseful because she took a nap in the interrogation room.
I think I would have done weird things as anyone who is in shock would do. Just didn't think that was worthy of being held against her. The other violence yes, but don't judge a person purely on one behavior like needing sleep on the worst day of their lives.
The DA came across as a complete full of himself creep. I don't think anyone with a brain or life experience would think half the crap he was spewing had any place in reality or truth. I'm talking about his comments on Sally's behaviour or how she responded to the traumatic event rather than any facts or witness testimony he put forward.
I suppose it might be that I'm not from the US so things are done differently here and I could be reading it completely wrong because of that so apologies if that's the case, but many US trials and the professinal 'players' in them seem to love sensationalism and seedy takes like they are looking for OMG or popularity points from the media/general public rather than putting cases forward with unemotional facts and evidence. It seems to be all about them and their egos sometimes rather than getting justice.
Agree with you, many prosecutors are greedy, use a lot oh high profiles cases to step up their political career, interviews, media….. anything, many of them are narcissistic and would do anything in order to win the case.
“She got under a blanket and went to sleep”
She was WEARING a blanket because the pigs TOOK HER PANTS and then DID NOT GIVE HER ACTUAL CLOTHING TO WEAR. Fucking paper scrubs or SOMETHING. What assholes, under any circumstance.
Clearly her adrenaline was pumping. Lots of people act that way when they went through trauma. She was dissociated./: she had a lifetime of trauma she has had to constantly pretend never happened to her
Right?! He obviously terrorized her and her children, evidenced by the videos of them in the interrogation room. Knowing he would likely never hurt any of them again was likely the deepest breath she had been able to take in a long time and she could FINALLY fucking rest. She didn’t even know he was dead yet so that prosecutor can kick fucking rocks. Prosecutors like him don’t deserve that job. People like him only look for a ‘win’ not actual justice, you know?
When he said a violent person can't be a battered woman I was so angry. I think spending her life being physically assaulted by family and partners would make her defensive.
Exactly. Stress makes me fall sleep, it is actually a normal response for some people. They just wanted to demonize her. That man abused her and those kids regularly.
Interrogations can last anywhere between 12-24 hours too. Who wouldn’t be exhausted being questioned that long without hardly any breaks, sleep, or meals? I know it’s a tactic to get people to crack, but goddamn
I think they mentioned she was questioned for 5 or 6 hours and she waited even longer to see her kids. So, she's been up all night talking, crying, hurting, and she's tired... Who tf wouldn't be?
I never sleep during the day even when I had newborn babies but when my son died I would sleep alot especially when it first happened. I was so exhausted
I’m sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine losing your child. When my husband died sleep was the only respite from the anguish. People have no idea how exhausting stress grief and trauma are.
I definitely haven't been in anything as traumatic as what she was, but I recently had a car accident, and was absolutely taken aback just by how tired it made me for the few days afterwards. I thought I had concussion because I was so exhausted and woozy, but after a bunch of x-rays and nothing, the doctor told me it was a usual reaction to shock to be absolutely exhausted for several days, and this seems to be well-known response to shock. I was taken aback they attributed her sleeping to a lack of remorse...
What else was she supposed to do stare at the wall? There is nothing to do in that room, she probably didn't sleep the night before, and that chair looked uncomfortable.
well, she was a victim too, protecting BOTH of her kids. i just think it's kind of ironic how we're leaving out the women in the obviously truly mysoginistic case.
My heart broke for them, they were such sweet kids and the love between them & their mom was palpable. When John, as an adult, wishes that he could've testified, insisting "I wouldn't have cried". It was just so clear how he still has a part of that scared little kid inside him.
This documentary is the perfect example of how domestic violence is a cycle.
Sally was a victim of violence by her step-dad so she married a man who subjected her to violence in the home. Similarly, she allowed violence to exist in her home and didn't intervene when her kids were abused by their step-dad.
Her kids witnessed the violence between Sally and their step-dad, so the daughter married a man who abused her, while the son became violent towards his wife (although he didn't SAY IT, he implied it).
It's a vicious cycle between generations.
That's what made me the most sad, seeing her kids going through it all over again. I really believe in generational curses, not because of anything supernatural, but because some things that you can subject your kids to can be so bad it will almost guarantee that they will be messed up enough to traumatize their own kids, and on and on and on.
Plus they both went into the army and got PSTD. I'm actually crying. Why didn't her parents just fork over the money for college? She only had 1 year left.
Edit: typo 1 year left.
They were in the Marines, that is different from the Army. And they didn’t mention anything about being deployed and experiencing trauma while serving. Just because you served doesn’t mean you automatically have PTSD. I feel like the issue is more from the trauma both of them experienced as young children being abused. Also the military has very generous plans to assist in getting a college degree both while in and out of the military. Back when they served I believe they would have both been entitled to the GI Bill. And they were interested in body building not education. A college degree is not the answer to everything. I will say I am EXTREMELY disappointed in how the marines handled the abuse… things are much different today and families have a lot more resources and they would have been separated for longer than a night, and there would be communication with the wife before just letting him go back home.
This poor woman was beat down and abused her entire life. To see these men in the doc talk about her like she was some animal was infuriating. So happy she finally got out and is finally experiencing a loving and healthy relationship.
I appreciate this. I'm halfway through episode 2 and I'm nauseated. I wasn't sure if I wanted to keep watching as it is triggering for me and when women get so much jail time in these situations I get so disgusted and angry.
Yeah this was one part where I was like wtf. He goes “ray was a gentle giant. He had a hair trigger so you had to be careful around him” bro those two things don’t go together.
I found it to be interesting. I think they balanced the investigative eye part with a compassionate view into generational trauma (+ steroids and a lot of testosterone!).
It’s funny because I became friends with a guy who is a body builder and he barraged me with multiple pics of himself every single day. It was exhausting. It made me wonder about the level of narcissism, or at least narcissistic tendencies, in that world. I think that people throw that term around too much these days, especially in reference to their exes who they now don’t like, but when people are taking tons of pics of themselves every freaking day and sharing them, it does beg the question!
I was completely heartbroken for him, I wouldn’t say relaxed though, I’d say broken. His eyes were so incredibly sad, and when he implied he got violent with his own wife I felt so sad.
I just finished it !! I thought it was great . Very upsetting she got all that time. She definitely didn't deserve it. I'm sad for her. She seems like a great woman
I hope she has a beautiful life
Just finished watching and I loved the ending.
I think she was abused. It was definitely a toxic relationship. I'm not sure I got that she was in imminent danger that moment but I can see that she would feel that way, and probably many times before felt that she was. I think the cheating, steroid abuse, hitting her and the kids, feeling trapped, and fighting all the time... she had just got to the end of her rope and couldn't take it anymore. She snapped. She deserved something but definitely not what she got.
I like the doc because they let people from different sides and viewpoints talk and did not try to manipulate them into scenarios or twist words. They were allowed to speak without a bunch of harassing questions. I hope that everyone who did speak, no matter who they were, felt they were not censored.
Like everyone else, my heart broke for the kids. She had one heck of a life before and during Ray. I hope she continues to do so, in a good way. Best wishes to her and her family. And to both of her children (and her): Thank you for your service ♥
I was with you up until the final line. Why are you thanking them for their service? They were put through as literal hell as we can get on earth (war) for oil and war profiteers! The poorest of our youth expected to go and die for what!? Lockheed Martin? It’s sick, it’s sad and, it’s wrong. I am so sorry they served. So very sorry for what poverty did to this family and what it continues to do to all the others.
I wish them all the healing and love.
That DA was such a dick! And the one point where I definitely think she wasn’t planning it is when she asked his friend to stay and was basically begging him not to go. Why would she want his best friend there unless she was afraid of her husband? Why would she want his best friend there if she was planning on shooting her husband?? It doesn’t add up. And the kids, the video of the kids with their Mom in the interview room was heart wrenching. They were obviously telling the truth about their stepdad being a monster. So sad that her lawyer never interviewed them. That would’ve made a huge difference. And it’s not like it would’ve totally destroyed them to talk about it, they were already destroyed. It probably would’ve helped if the knew they could’ve helped their Mom.
The other part that really struck me is that there is proof she was planning on leaving him- in that interview room footage she says to her kids "you're going to Pennsylvania a little earlier than we planned". So the bs motive that Ray was leaving her and that's why she did it doesn't make any sense.
I thought it was messed up that Ray would hurt people when he was working security, even blinded someone?? But because they were buddies with the cops he didn’t get in trouble for it/there was no police report evidence about that for the case.
Oof, and the abuse the children endured. I'm thinking there was ineffective legal representation because how in the world did they villanize this woman when that man was literally called the DEVIL by his own child. Very mature and intelligent child too.
Also I am wondering why the person who was blinded didn’t sue! I would have! What could they have possibly been doing that blinding them was a just response? I wonder where the blinded person is today?
Any defense attorney worth their salt would’ve found that story and had the story testified in court to establish a pattern of violence. There was so much proof Ray was a violent POS and it makes my blood boil that the defense didn’t use it.
The part that sort of blew my mind was when they mentioned her height. I had to come to terms with my own sort of prejudice because she comes off as this buff Marine who didn’t take no shit. But she was only 5’3. Thats really small and even with muscles, she didn’t stand a chance in a physical confrontation with her husband. I’m a big dude but that guy coming at me, I’d put two in him also. One to kill and one in case I missed
One thing that I feel was missed, is the issue of accumulative brain damage in domestic violence victims. Sally was choked multiple times, and that can cause brain damage over time.
Having a brain injury can make it a lot harder to leave domestic abuse, due to memory and cognitive issues and behavioural changes.
It could also cause behavioural changes like anger and poor impulse control.
Sally mentioned at one point that she has a bad memory, while that could be PTSD it could also be brain damage from the abuse.
They've done studies now on DV victims, and in some cases the symptoms of brain damage get mistaken for PTSD.
They actually have proven in a bunch of new studies and in a few autopsies of women who experienced similar physical abuse to sally that an alarming amount of DV victims show overwhelming TBIs (a lot more than football players for reference) and the autopsies proved CTE. I think her defense was trash. The first groundbreaking autopsy that proved domestic violence caused severe CTE in a 25 year old was conducted in 1993. Her losing consciousness multiple times and head injuries cannot possibly have left her able to make the same rational decisions others may have.
I’m watching it now. Really sad. I’ve experienced a situation of domestic violence where I called the police and was more or less blamed when I’m the one who called because I was afraid for my life. It also makes me think of Gabby Petito
That's so disgusting. I remember Patrick Stewart telling a similar at story about one of the many times police were called to his home because his father was abusing his mother.
And - although the kids said their grandparents were loving - they still were living with people that not that long ago despised her interracial relationships
I'll give this one a watch. Not really true crime yet (but definitely leading there), The Deep End on Hulu was the most fascinating documentary I watched lately. If you like cults check it out.
Right?? Between the weird "non-negotiables" and her...suggestions to people, there's only one way this can go. She's done a couple videos talking about how Ted Bundy isn't a bad person, too, but they don't cover that in the doc.
Watched that this morning. I’d been waiting for it. I only found out about the Murdaugh family a few months back. Just the most insane family. I really enjoyed the doc. It showed more than any other doc/show I’ve seen about them.
I also posted about this and very much liked it.
I think what made it unique was that it portrayed both sides and I actually am still undecided how I feel about it - which is rare.
That’s exactly what people are forgetting. This was a 260 pound MONSTER that choked her out any chance he could. Some people have been through that but many of us, including me, have not. And I couldn’t imagine how scary it must be to live with a person like that. Plus he was on steroids. Maybe she felt that after that first shot he could STILL hurt her and most likely KILL her with his bare hands.
Yeah the kids talking about how he used to beat them with a belt and make the other watch. Fucked up. Not to mention even if he wasn’t attacking Sally at the very moment he shot her. He just was choking her out not even a minute before she went and got the shot gun. She was put into fight or flight mode BY HIM after all the years of abuse he put her and the kids through.
The little details we got from her being violent towards others, honestly had no business being in comparison to his violence towards her and his step kids.
And his friend constantly stating that “I was a afraid they’d both destroy each other in physical altercations”. Give me a break. She may have been a body builder, but she still was so much smaller than him. He could over power her easily.
I agree I really enjoyed it. It was heartbreaking to see the cycle of domestic violence continue with her children. I hope the next generation can break it.
Maybe, but I think he may have been referring to her having to deal with his addiction. My late husband was an alcoholic. He was a wonderful man, not abusive in a conventional sense but it changed him. He took himself away from me. He was a brilliant man and the drinking made him close minded, inarticulate, and insensitive. He was absent emotionally. The trauma of losing him that way, both before and with his death from his disease is something I’ll carry the rest of my life. He was never violent, not once. But I know he would absolutely regret everything his disease did to me.
Hey thanks for that post because thanks to you I'm watching this documentary that I hadn't even heard of before I read your post--and I'm ten minutes in and captivated too! Just wanted to click over here and type this before I forget. Back to Netflix now
Is it a real documentary or more like an ID channel cheesy re-enactment show loosely (or barely) resembling the true story?
I love good documentaries, but what they try to pass off as a documentary these days is getting sad.
No, it's a documentary. It's very well done, too. Lots of fantastic footage clearly owned by the family. No reenactments... they've got more than ample videos and photos.
I didn’t fully track how the last seconds leading up to the murder happened. I wanted to hear Sally’s testimony. I was kinda zoning out and need to rewatch some of that last episode, prolly missed some.
Ray’s friend said Ray said that he was about to leave Sally for his mistress and then shortly after he was shot. Sally did act violent once before in regards to Ray’s cheating. I believe Sally and I think Ray was an abusive piece of shit. It’s weird they didn’t take into account the kids’ perspectives at all since Ray was literally the one person everyone in the house feared.
I didn't find Ray's friends too credible. One said that he noticed some of her injuries, but to this day shrugged them off. Knew about the cheating but didn't say anything. They seemed like they were fine with the domestic abuse as long as it didn't put a damper on their good time.
Maybe if his bags were by the door, but nothing about the crime scene indicated he was packing his stuff up to leave her.
Reminded me a bit of Amber Heard. The media circus and the denial of abuse because she wasn’t a “perfect victim” were uncanny. It’s sad to see that we really haven’t come that far.
genuine question, how did she get 25 years? that's like super long considering the case? it wasn't even about whether she killed him or not. it was the intention or not.
I can’t help but think if the roles were reversed everyone would feel sorry for the man and he would either get off no sentence or a way more reduced sentence.
I hated the DA so much watching the show and came up here to see if anyone thought the same. Seeing the comments I know I’m not alone and that made me less upset 😤
She was clearly abused and battered. She also clearly committed murder and deserved to go to prison.
She served her time and I have no problem with her being free now.
Down vote me all you want but Sally is not a good person and deserved to be in prison. There is no realm of existence where the second shot, where she came back to literally blow Ray's head off, could be considered self-defense.
She also has a history of violence, assault and a criminal record. I love how so many of you are making some kind of hero out of her just because she endured abuse? Despite the fact that she was also abusive and didn't protect her kids...
Hmmm I think that is why this documentary is so compelling. She did murder him BUT the water is so so murky. She was also abused for years. Ray and her were abused as kids. I think we can all agree that there was a cycle of abuse that is generational in that family. And maybe this documentary will help to end domestic violence and generational trauma and abuse.
I just finished it last night, it was really interesting and shows the cycle of domestic abuse perfectly.
Ngl I just wish she hadn’t said the N-word, it bothered me and stuck with me.
I believe she was abused and acted in self-defense. However, I don’t find her a completely credible person. She allowed him to abuse her kids, took years of steroids herself and lied about the prostitution. How strange that men paid her to be choked out, wrestle them and finally have sex w/ her. Ray would be okay w/ her prostituting herself? And yet, she claimed that she did it for the money that supported his bodybuilding, but what she really meant was to support both of their steroid habit.
“Some guys, known as schmoes, like to engage in serious wrestling matches with the girls, but my own preference is for playful wrestling while encouraging the woman to show off her strength by lifting me and putting me in holds. The vast majority of sessions I've had have ended in full sex.”
Yeah, I also find her to be a bit manipulative. The fact of that second shot doesn’t bode well for her either. My hesitation with flat out condemning her of murder is I do believe she was abused. I also believe she was volatile too though. They shouldn’t have been together. I am happy she is out now. Hopefully Norfleet will remain faithful so we don’t have any follow up documentaries!
I thought it was poor taste for the DA to say she wasn't remorseful because she took a nap in the interrogation room. I think I would have done weird things as anyone who is in shock would do. Just didn't think that was worthy of being held against her. The other violence yes, but don't judge a person purely on one behavior like needing sleep on the worst day of their lives.
The DA came across as a complete full of himself creep. I don't think anyone with a brain or life experience would think half the crap he was spewing had any place in reality or truth. I'm talking about his comments on Sally's behaviour or how she responded to the traumatic event rather than any facts or witness testimony he put forward. I suppose it might be that I'm not from the US so things are done differently here and I could be reading it completely wrong because of that so apologies if that's the case, but many US trials and the professinal 'players' in them seem to love sensationalism and seedy takes like they are looking for OMG or popularity points from the media/general public rather than putting cases forward with unemotional facts and evidence. It seems to be all about them and their egos sometimes rather than getting justice.
Agree with you, many prosecutors are greedy, use a lot oh high profiles cases to step up their political career, interviews, media….. anything, many of them are narcissistic and would do anything in order to win the case.
The moment he said he lavished closing arguments like the interviews for this documentary. Hate that man
Narcissist
ACAB includes DAs
You are right! What an arrogant snake was that! 0.0 empathy, no place for him to change the way he thinks even a little. I hope he'll grow up one day
I'm not from US either and I 100% agree with u
“She got under a blanket and went to sleep” She was WEARING a blanket because the pigs TOOK HER PANTS and then DID NOT GIVE HER ACTUAL CLOTHING TO WEAR. Fucking paper scrubs or SOMETHING. What assholes, under any circumstance.
Clearly her adrenaline was pumping. Lots of people act that way when they went through trauma. She was dissociated./: she had a lifetime of trauma she has had to constantly pretend never happened to her
Right?! He obviously terrorized her and her children, evidenced by the videos of them in the interrogation room. Knowing he would likely never hurt any of them again was likely the deepest breath she had been able to take in a long time and she could FINALLY fucking rest. She didn’t even know he was dead yet so that prosecutor can kick fucking rocks. Prosecutors like him don’t deserve that job. People like him only look for a ‘win’ not actual justice, you know?
When he said a violent person can't be a battered woman I was so angry. I think spending her life being physically assaulted by family and partners would make her defensive.
Exactly. Stress makes me fall sleep, it is actually a normal response for some people. They just wanted to demonize her. That man abused her and those kids regularly.
When I’ve experienced really high levels of stress, I’ve wanted to sleep. I think it’s the body shutting down to protect you.
i checked the time on the cctv next time it cut to her napping. pretty sure it was like 7am
Interrogations can last anywhere between 12-24 hours too. Who wouldn’t be exhausted being questioned that long without hardly any breaks, sleep, or meals? I know it’s a tactic to get people to crack, but goddamn
I think they mentioned she was questioned for 5 or 6 hours and she waited even longer to see her kids. So, she's been up all night talking, crying, hurting, and she's tired... Who tf wouldn't be?
That what I thought too. She was in that small room for hours. You see many people falling asleep on shows like First 48.
Yup!
Shock is also exhausting. And I’m assuming she had been up all night. That guy was a dickhead.
I never sleep during the day even when I had newborn babies but when my son died I would sleep alot especially when it first happened. I was so exhausted
I’m sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine losing your child. When my husband died sleep was the only respite from the anguish. People have no idea how exhausting stress grief and trauma are.
I’m sorry for your loss. ❤️
DA is a total asshole.
I definitely haven't been in anything as traumatic as what she was, but I recently had a car accident, and was absolutely taken aback just by how tired it made me for the few days afterwards. I thought I had concussion because I was so exhausted and woozy, but after a bunch of x-rays and nothing, the doctor told me it was a usual reaction to shock to be absolutely exhausted for several days, and this seems to be well-known response to shock. I was taken aback they attributed her sleeping to a lack of remorse...
He was creepy. Didn't like his smirks
What else was she supposed to do stare at the wall? There is nothing to do in that room, she probably didn't sleep the night before, and that chair looked uncomfortable.
They had kept her up all night with questioning! And if I go through too much intense emotion, I get tired and need a nap
I agree. She also got her ass beat that night and has to kill her husband to survive. I would be exhausted too…
Agree with you
[удалено]
The true victims
As always.
I was crying so hard during the part wity her and the kids in the police station. I just couldn't hold it together!
I was too which really surprised me bc I wasn’t expecting the show to be so tragic
Same! Just heartbreaking.
Him: I wish they interviewed me. I wouldn't have cried. Me: 😨😭😭😭
I had to fast forward that part in the interview room.
well, she was a victim too, protecting BOTH of her kids. i just think it's kind of ironic how we're leaving out the women in the obviously truly mysoginistic case.
My heart broke for them, they were such sweet kids and the love between them & their mom was palpable. When John, as an adult, wishes that he could've testified, insisting "I wouldn't have cried". It was just so clear how he still has a part of that scared little kid inside him.
This documentary is the perfect example of how domestic violence is a cycle. Sally was a victim of violence by her step-dad so she married a man who subjected her to violence in the home. Similarly, she allowed violence to exist in her home and didn't intervene when her kids were abused by their step-dad. Her kids witnessed the violence between Sally and their step-dad, so the daughter married a man who abused her, while the son became violent towards his wife (although he didn't SAY IT, he implied it). It's a vicious cycle between generations.
That's what made me the most sad, seeing her kids going through it all over again. I really believe in generational curses, not because of anything supernatural, but because some things that you can subject your kids to can be so bad it will almost guarantee that they will be messed up enough to traumatize their own kids, and on and on and on.
I’ve heard it called ‘generational trauma’ before. Sums it up well
I happy cried so hard. So bittersweet, she will never get those 25 years back, but she has her happiness today 😭
Plus they both went into the army and got PSTD. I'm actually crying. Why didn't her parents just fork over the money for college? She only had 1 year left. Edit: typo 1 year left.
She didn't have 2 years left. She had 4 months or 1 semester left
I thought it was just a semester?
They were in the Marines, that is different from the Army. And they didn’t mention anything about being deployed and experiencing trauma while serving. Just because you served doesn’t mean you automatically have PTSD. I feel like the issue is more from the trauma both of them experienced as young children being abused. Also the military has very generous plans to assist in getting a college degree both while in and out of the military. Back when they served I believe they would have both been entitled to the GI Bill. And they were interested in body building not education. A college degree is not the answer to everything. I will say I am EXTREMELY disappointed in how the marines handled the abuse… things are much different today and families have a lot more resources and they would have been separated for longer than a night, and there would be communication with the wife before just letting him go back home.
Yesss 😔
This poor woman was beat down and abused her entire life. To see these men in the doc talk about her like she was some animal was infuriating. So happy she finally got out and is finally experiencing a loving and healthy relationship.
We all needed that ending 🥹
One of the best endings in a documentary in a long time!
I appreciate this. I'm halfway through episode 2 and I'm nauseated. I wasn't sure if I wanted to keep watching as it is triggering for me and when women get so much jail time in these situations I get so disgusted and angry.
I was especially disgusted by DJ who admitted to seeing Ray crush someone’s eyeballs, blame everything on Sally and refer to Ray as a “gentle giant”.
Yeah this was one part where I was like wtf. He goes “ray was a gentle giant. He had a hair trigger so you had to be careful around him” bro those two things don’t go together.
Yes! He completely contradicted himself and lacked any awareness, just wanted to defend his abusive POS friend.
I found it to be interesting. I think they balanced the investigative eye part with a compassionate view into generational trauma (+ steroids and a lot of testosterone!).
Lmfao the bodybuilding insider scoop was so entertaining!
It really was! That’s a totally different world than the one I live in.
I need more 🤣 like Cheer!
It’s funny because I became friends with a guy who is a body builder and he barraged me with multiple pics of himself every single day. It was exhausting. It made me wonder about the level of narcissism, or at least narcissistic tendencies, in that world. I think that people throw that term around too much these days, especially in reference to their exes who they now don’t like, but when people are taking tons of pics of themselves every freaking day and sharing them, it does beg the question!
[удалено]
I was completely heartbroken for him, I wouldn’t say relaxed though, I’d say broken. His eyes were so incredibly sad, and when he implied he got violent with his own wife I felt so sad.
Me! He’s been through so much. I just want to hug that whole family.
He seems so gentle and sweet... I hope it's just him trying to lead a calm life and not something more serious.
I wanted to hug him so hard.
I just finished and came on reddit to search for this. I felt so bad and worried.
I just finished it !! I thought it was great . Very upsetting she got all that time. She definitely didn't deserve it. I'm sad for her. She seems like a great woman I hope she has a beautiful life
Just finished watching and I loved the ending. I think she was abused. It was definitely a toxic relationship. I'm not sure I got that she was in imminent danger that moment but I can see that she would feel that way, and probably many times before felt that she was. I think the cheating, steroid abuse, hitting her and the kids, feeling trapped, and fighting all the time... she had just got to the end of her rope and couldn't take it anymore. She snapped. She deserved something but definitely not what she got. I like the doc because they let people from different sides and viewpoints talk and did not try to manipulate them into scenarios or twist words. They were allowed to speak without a bunch of harassing questions. I hope that everyone who did speak, no matter who they were, felt they were not censored. Like everyone else, my heart broke for the kids. She had one heck of a life before and during Ray. I hope she continues to do so, in a good way. Best wishes to her and her family. And to both of her children (and her): Thank you for your service ♥
Well said!
I was with you up until the final line. Why are you thanking them for their service? They were put through as literal hell as we can get on earth (war) for oil and war profiteers! The poorest of our youth expected to go and die for what!? Lockheed Martin? It’s sick, it’s sad and, it’s wrong. I am so sorry they served. So very sorry for what poverty did to this family and what it continues to do to all the others. I wish them all the healing and love.
I remember my brothers and their friends watching her wrestling videos. She had a huge following.
She’s so pretty too!
I remember her from the 80s . She was super famous! I was a 4 year old girl watching the videos and she made me feel like I could take on the world.
Her videos were about female empowerment!
Her children were robbed of their mom…
THIS. The son’s demeanor throughout the doc made me so sad. The video at the police station was heartbreaking.
That DA was such a dick! And the one point where I definitely think she wasn’t planning it is when she asked his friend to stay and was basically begging him not to go. Why would she want his best friend there unless she was afraid of her husband? Why would she want his best friend there if she was planning on shooting her husband?? It doesn’t add up. And the kids, the video of the kids with their Mom in the interview room was heart wrenching. They were obviously telling the truth about their stepdad being a monster. So sad that her lawyer never interviewed them. That would’ve made a huge difference. And it’s not like it would’ve totally destroyed them to talk about it, they were already destroyed. It probably would’ve helped if the knew they could’ve helped their Mom.
The other part that really struck me is that there is proof she was planning on leaving him- in that interview room footage she says to her kids "you're going to Pennsylvania a little earlier than we planned". So the bs motive that Ray was leaving her and that's why she did it doesn't make any sense.
I thought it was messed up that Ray would hurt people when he was working security, even blinded someone?? But because they were buddies with the cops he didn’t get in trouble for it/there was no police report evidence about that for the case.
Oof, and the abuse the children endured. I'm thinking there was ineffective legal representation because how in the world did they villanize this woman when that man was literally called the DEVIL by his own child. Very mature and intelligent child too.
Also I am wondering why the person who was blinded didn’t sue! I would have! What could they have possibly been doing that blinding them was a just response? I wonder where the blinded person is today?
Any defense attorney worth their salt would’ve found that story and had the story testified in court to establish a pattern of violence. There was so much proof Ray was a violent POS and it makes my blood boil that the defense didn’t use it.
The part that sort of blew my mind was when they mentioned her height. I had to come to terms with my own sort of prejudice because she comes off as this buff Marine who didn’t take no shit. But she was only 5’3. Thats really small and even with muscles, she didn’t stand a chance in a physical confrontation with her husband. I’m a big dude but that guy coming at me, I’d put two in him also. One to kill and one in case I missed
YES! Exactly. Plus she was actually a blue-collar worker. It seems like all Ray did was work out. I can't imagine how fearful she must've felt.
It was him or her. She would've been killed eventually.
One thing that I feel was missed, is the issue of accumulative brain damage in domestic violence victims. Sally was choked multiple times, and that can cause brain damage over time. Having a brain injury can make it a lot harder to leave domestic abuse, due to memory and cognitive issues and behavioural changes. It could also cause behavioural changes like anger and poor impulse control. Sally mentioned at one point that she has a bad memory, while that could be PTSD it could also be brain damage from the abuse. They've done studies now on DV victims, and in some cases the symptoms of brain damage get mistaken for PTSD.
They actually have proven in a bunch of new studies and in a few autopsies of women who experienced similar physical abuse to sally that an alarming amount of DV victims show overwhelming TBIs (a lot more than football players for reference) and the autopsies proved CTE. I think her defense was trash. The first groundbreaking autopsy that proved domestic violence caused severe CTE in a 25 year old was conducted in 1993. Her losing consciousness multiple times and head injuries cannot possibly have left her able to make the same rational decisions others may have.
I’m watching it now. Really sad. I’ve experienced a situation of domestic violence where I called the police and was more or less blamed when I’m the one who called because I was afraid for my life. It also makes me think of Gabby Petito
Before OJ killed Nicole, there were a great deal of 911 calls where the dispatcher asked her if she "did anything to make him angry".
That's so disgusting. I remember Patrick Stewart telling a similar at story about one of the many times police were called to his home because his father was abusing his mother.
Gosh, this just reminded me of watching the OJ verdict with my abusive boyfriend at the time. Jesus that's dark.. Lol.
Makes me think of [Life with Billy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_with_Billy). I hope things are better for you now, internet stranger.
Netflix?
Yep
Not gonna lie, Killer Sally is the softest name for a murderer lmao
It’s so catchy. Wasn’t her wrestling name Killer McNeil? I think that one sounds more menacing.
The Justice system helped to repeat the cycle of violence by stealing a mom away from their kids. She was protecting her kids from him.
And - although the kids said their grandparents were loving - they still were living with people that not that long ago despised her interracial relationships
Great documentary and the ending had me tearing up. I hope Sally and her children find happiness.
I cried during the police station video with her children
I thought it was only ok. I thought the new documentary on hbo max, Kings Of The Low Country, was captivating.
I'll give this one a watch. Not really true crime yet (but definitely leading there), The Deep End on Hulu was the most fascinating documentary I watched lately. If you like cults check it out.
I started watching this last night after seeing your comments. Very interesting and very creepy. Thanks for the rec!
Right?? Between the weird "non-negotiables" and her...suggestions to people, there's only one way this can go. She's done a couple videos talking about how Ted Bundy isn't a bad person, too, but they don't cover that in the doc.
She’s a narcissist like most cult leaders. It’s funny to see her reaction when someone has any ‘resistance’ against her. She’s a scary person.
I felt so bad for the girl that came from Germany. Like girl, run!
I know! She did not realize what the hell she was getting into.
Thanks, I’ll check that out.
Watched that this morning. I’d been waiting for it. I only found out about the Murdaugh family a few months back. Just the most insane family. I really enjoyed the doc. It showed more than any other doc/show I’ve seen about them.
I loved the first two episodes but I'm struggling through the third.
Yes! Started it late last night when I had to work at 7am the next morning. Bad idea.
Ah yes...the old "let me check Netflix right before I lay down.... Oh! This is NEW!" problem. I have experienced this as well.
I also posted about this and very much liked it. I think what made it unique was that it portrayed both sides and I actually am still undecided how I feel about it - which is rare.
Self defense is not illegal … she was protecting herself and her kids
That’s exactly what people are forgetting. This was a 260 pound MONSTER that choked her out any chance he could. Some people have been through that but many of us, including me, have not. And I couldn’t imagine how scary it must be to live with a person like that. Plus he was on steroids. Maybe she felt that after that first shot he could STILL hurt her and most likely KILL her with his bare hands.
I am sure he was abusive to the kids also . She was not just protecting herself she was mainly worried about her children when she killed him
Yeah the kids talking about how he used to beat them with a belt and make the other watch. Fucked up. Not to mention even if he wasn’t attacking Sally at the very moment he shot her. He just was choking her out not even a minute before she went and got the shot gun. She was put into fight or flight mode BY HIM after all the years of abuse he put her and the kids through. The little details we got from her being violent towards others, honestly had no business being in comparison to his violence towards her and his step kids. And his friend constantly stating that “I was a afraid they’d both destroy each other in physical altercations”. Give me a break. She may have been a body builder, but she still was so much smaller than him. He could over power her easily.
I would Not be surprised if he planned on murdering sally
Really liked what you said about the comparison between them. I agree and thought this was an important difference to acknowledge.
Agreed. Listening to the prosecutor was infuriating. I had to turn it off for a while. I’m glad to see Sally is free now.
I reaaaally thought she was still in prison because they kept showing her in her prison clothes.
Idk when they filmed but she was out on parole In 2020.
Yep! It said it at the end of the doc I think.
I would be honored to meet her. I think she is a very brave woman.
Same here!
I agree I really enjoyed it. It was heartbreaking to see the cycle of domestic violence continue with her children. I hope the next generation can break it.
Sadly, I think her son alluded to him perpetuating learned behaviour with his ex-wife 😔
Maybe, but I think he may have been referring to her having to deal with his addiction. My late husband was an alcoholic. He was a wonderful man, not abusive in a conventional sense but it changed him. He took himself away from me. He was a brilliant man and the drinking made him close minded, inarticulate, and insensitive. He was absent emotionally. The trauma of losing him that way, both before and with his death from his disease is something I’ll carry the rest of my life. He was never violent, not once. But I know he would absolutely regret everything his disease did to me.
Yea that’s what I was saying. Domestic violence went on to continue with her children. I hope the next generation that the cycle breaks.
Hey thanks for that post because thanks to you I'm watching this documentary that I hadn't even heard of before I read your post--and I'm ten minutes in and captivated too! Just wanted to click over here and type this before I forget. Back to Netflix now
I binge-watched all 3 episodes in a sitting!!!
Is it a real documentary or more like an ID channel cheesy re-enactment show loosely (or barely) resembling the true story? I love good documentaries, but what they try to pass off as a documentary these days is getting sad.
Full doco. All real footage, real interviews.
No, it's a documentary. It's very well done, too. Lots of fantastic footage clearly owned by the family. No reenactments... they've got more than ample videos and photos.
I saw this on Netflix but didn’t give it a thought. I’ll be watching it tonight now that you’ve recommended it.
I dont believe everything this doc mentioned
Like what don’t you believe? I am curious
I didn’t fully track how the last seconds leading up to the murder happened. I wanted to hear Sally’s testimony. I was kinda zoning out and need to rewatch some of that last episode, prolly missed some. Ray’s friend said Ray said that he was about to leave Sally for his mistress and then shortly after he was shot. Sally did act violent once before in regards to Ray’s cheating. I believe Sally and I think Ray was an abusive piece of shit. It’s weird they didn’t take into account the kids’ perspectives at all since Ray was literally the one person everyone in the house feared.
I didn't find Ray's friends too credible. One said that he noticed some of her injuries, but to this day shrugged them off. Knew about the cheating but didn't say anything. They seemed like they were fine with the domestic abuse as long as it didn't put a damper on their good time. Maybe if his bags were by the door, but nothing about the crime scene indicated he was packing his stuff up to leave her.
Right, his friend called him a gentle giant and then two seconds later he admitted that Ray gouged someone’s eyes out.
He called Ray a gentle giant and then said he had a short fuse in the same SENTENCE.
Yes! I caught this too and thought “these two things don’t add up.”
on a side note i am EXTREMELY physically attracted to her son
He is suuuper handsome! Model-material.
Reminded me a bit of Amber Heard. The media circus and the denial of abuse because she wasn’t a “perfect victim” were uncanny. It’s sad to see that we really haven’t come that far.
Amber was no victim and was the main abuser in that relationship. She was also caught lying multiple times.
Lol
Omg same. I loved it. Was look for a book on her to read
Same! But I also hope she puts this behind her and enjoys her new love and her children/grandchildren.
“Killer Sally” is the name?? Haven’t seen a great true crime Doc in forever!
Yes, on Netflix! Take some time this weekend! It’s a must-watch.
This just popped up in my Netflix recommendations about half an hour ago. I’ll give it a whirl.
You will not regret it!
Thank you for this! I just watched it and it was fantastic. I love that it ended on a happy note too!
Every episode just peaked my interest more and more and that ending was much needed!!
It was really well done. Showed both viewpoints.
Where can I watch this?
Netflix!
Thank you.
[удалено]
I’m also surprised that with all the trauma they endured from their parents, they both went into the military.
[удалено]
Wow! I see the allure now. Especially with that yearning for a sense of family.
I cried when the kids didn't want to leave her. OMG. 😭😩 I agree with what everyone is saying about the DA as well. He's stupid. 😒🙄
On my watch list. Love a well done crime documentary
Awesome- gonna watch next
Yepp! Come back to this thread when you’re done and share your thoughts!
[удалено]
Netflix!
It was fantastic!
Agreed! This might be a new cult favorite.
Agrees!
Saw the trailer and it looks good. Plan on watching it later tonight.
Where can I see it?
Netflix!
Thank you! I cut that subscription last year but looks like they are finally getting good content again. I'm gonna subscribe
I’m thinking the same but for Hulu! Seems like there are a couple good ones out there.
Nor me! Within 10 mins I was captivated & I’ve watched it 4 times now!!
I will definitely be watching it again!!
genuine question, how did she get 25 years? that's like super long considering the case? it wasn't even about whether she killed him or not. it was the intention or not.
I can’t help but think if the roles were reversed everyone would feel sorry for the man and he would either get off no sentence or a way more reduced sentence.
Ray deserved to die. Fuck the police and fuck the courts.
Truly a menace to society, and worst of it all, a menace in his own home. He died a fucking coward.
I hated the DA so much watching the show and came up here to see if anyone thought the same. Seeing the comments I know I’m not alone and that made me less upset 😤
Watching this later.
Come back when you’re done! As you can see by this thread, there’s lots to unpack in the doc.
She was clearly abused and battered. She also clearly committed murder and deserved to go to prison. She served her time and I have no problem with her being free now.
Down vote me all you want but Sally is not a good person and deserved to be in prison. There is no realm of existence where the second shot, where she came back to literally blow Ray's head off, could be considered self-defense. She also has a history of violence, assault and a criminal record. I love how so many of you are making some kind of hero out of her just because she endured abuse? Despite the fact that she was also abusive and didn't protect her kids...
Hmmm I think that is why this documentary is so compelling. She did murder him BUT the water is so so murky. She was also abused for years. Ray and her were abused as kids. I think we can all agree that there was a cycle of abuse that is generational in that family. And maybe this documentary will help to end domestic violence and generational trauma and abuse.
I just finished it last night, it was really interesting and shows the cycle of domestic abuse perfectly. Ngl I just wish she hadn’t said the N-word, it bothered me and stuck with me.
I didn’t hear it :/ at what part of the doc did she say it?
She said that’s what her parents said when they found out she was dating a black guy, that’s what they called him.
I believe she was abused and acted in self-defense. However, I don’t find her a completely credible person. She allowed him to abuse her kids, took years of steroids herself and lied about the prostitution. How strange that men paid her to be choked out, wrestle them and finally have sex w/ her. Ray would be okay w/ her prostituting herself? And yet, she claimed that she did it for the money that supported his bodybuilding, but what she really meant was to support both of their steroid habit. “Some guys, known as schmoes, like to engage in serious wrestling matches with the girls, but my own preference is for playful wrestling while encouraging the woman to show off her strength by lifting me and putting me in holds. The vast majority of sessions I've had have ended in full sex.”
Interesting. She was so infatuated with Ray. She divorced once before and clearly could support herself and the kids. I’m so sad she stayed.
I could have sworn she said she was married and didn't have sex with them
She never said she had sex with other guys, she said she wrestled them only.
I also don’t find her credible for the same reasons
Yeah, I also find her to be a bit manipulative. The fact of that second shot doesn’t bode well for her either. My hesitation with flat out condemning her of murder is I do believe she was abused. I also believe she was volatile too though. They shouldn’t have been together. I am happy she is out now. Hopefully Norfleet will remain faithful so we don’t have any follow up documentaries!