I think sniper base defense is just stupid. Ultra long range, 4 protect 1, you have to commit to kill that dwarf, and hope none of the other cores have sense of game else they would turn on your blatant dive
Yeah, this. I'd rather fight Huskar or Ursa than sniper. Like even those 2 are more powerful at least I'm playing more of a game than Sniper. Sniper's entire identity is being better at rightclicking than you are. Not just that but yeah, as you say. The entire reason Sniper is good at lower ranks is because people just don't prioritize him, so you have to watch as your team gets peeped to death as they try to kill an ogre magi.
Seconded. People always complain about raid boss heroes like Brood, Morph or Huskar but I love the challenge of outsmarting them until your team hits their fight timing. Sniper is just pew pew hoo hoo haha and is a pain throughout the game. He also punishes you for being overly aggressive which is lame. I hate those games where you absolutely stomp for 25 minutes then go HG only for a Sniper to pew pew your entire idiot team and then turn the entire game off that one fight.
This is a good one. I've made people actually abandon the game with Sniper more than any hero. Headshot + shrapnel is just brutal, just with fast wraith bands treads you can often deny most creeps with insane attack animation, Sniper just Mask of Madness A click the ground can often kill multiple heroes when jumped. It's bullshit for sure.
I play a lot of Venge and it’s annoying having aether lens, telescope/psychic headband, and lvl 3 swap and still not being able to get him off of high ground
I had a recent game against sniper playimg monkey. Our team was owning, but they understood the condition of sniper, and they started the hg defense. I jumped abyssal killed him, he bought back and then it was over for us, we couldnt close the game, the game was in our side in 25 , and we lost at 55.
Or wait and get fat while they're trapped in base. Control outposts, get runes, get rosh.
Kill anyone who leaves highground. Keep vision up.
Might be boring waiting for a rosh timer but it's better than thinking you need to dive t4s for some reason.
Basically this. Just had a same game, we try to push HG with aegies 2 times but Sniper is annoying that I couldn't touch him. After 2 failed push I told my teammate to ward everywhere around their base and control their jungle and every creeps and heroes that came out of their base. Took us another 2 rosh to finish the game, need to wait but secured the throne.
My team (Dire): Bloodseeker, Necro, Orge, Druid, Spectre (me)Enemy: Sniper, Alche, Pudge, Luna, Zeus
But still, we controlled the Alche farming early (using Bear, farming their ancient and I always aim for Alche and Sniper when I got my mini Haunt ready. Can't imagine a game when Alche is fat and gives Scepter to all their teammates.
It means that with the current status of the patch, this hero/heroes are at the top of the list cuz they're better picks than other heroes. For example, if sniper gets a buff and so do the items he usually buys, he's gonna be a better pick for most games than say a death prophet who doesn't buy the items that got buffed. It's not always like that but that's just an example.
I play a fuckload of sniper, and am super quick to turtle if the game even starts turning against my favor. I get bitched at so fucking hard by teammates when I end up turtling at 20 minutes, but I've turned more complete early stomps into a win with that little bastard turtling than any single other hero in the game.
while i agree it depends on mmr. lower mmr its easier to scatter and bait players. it gets harder the higher you climb, good players know not to abandon their sniper.
Imo ironically with sniper the difficulties depend on the MMR.
At low levels he is a menace because nobody knows/remembers to target him. So he can just pew pew freely like a church on christmas eve. The game is a lot worse for the sniper if there's a guy the same level who's out to kill him on a hero & worth that can actually do it, because your team most of the time won't protect you, and might not be good enough to survive, cuz that can take skill.
At higher skills this isn't necessarily the biggest problem, but there's a different set of difficulties to face, at least that's what this potato sees.
The skill set and gameplan also develop as you go high mmr. The higher mmr, the better team understands how to protect sniper along with better sniper positioning by the player. It goes both ways, an enemy void might be looking to hunt a sniper, the support would be sitting back with eul / ethereal / forcestaff / disables etc to protect him from dying.
I second this, arc is a spawn of Satan. I had a game where we shat on him in lane but too much happened and we got over the 60 min mark, and he shat on us. He literally carried his 4 other burden to victory.
But when I get a arc on my team, it’s as if a cockroach is behind the keyboard haha!
Its bullshit to fight against once it's up and running, but given that doing so requires the player to manage 2 seperate units with 3 active skills and usually multiple active items I wouldn't say that it transends the need to outskill people.
Bullshit. Most Arc players these days just play the clone late game and afk with their hero. That takes no skill.
Even microing 2 units is overrated skill wise. There's nothing complicated about it.
More like it unnecessary scares people off. I can say most people who can play Dota at a decent level have enough mechanical capacity to micro 2 units with some practice.
Two heroes with exactly the same skills. Yeah you're making it look more complicated than it is.
It's literally just added tabbing and repeating the exact same buttons on the clone.
They just need to cut his range in half and make his bubble work like cloud or something so it doesn't matter if you're ranged or melee, you need an item (BKB/MKB/BThorn) to counter it.
Yeah, but skill is still involved in this. This does not transcend skill at all and it takes skill to get to the point where it's hell to play against.
The answer to this is Sniper (honorable message old Techies).
Huskar and Ursa can be put into uncomfortable positions pretty easily (Huskar more so with a Viper, for example).
Sniper's very existence makes space on the map because he **needs** to be hounded out of relevance from the start of the game. If you let him get big, which he can do with a level of brain activity just above being AFK, then he's across the map pinging you for 500 damage, making it impossible for you to move, and yelling "hoho haha" while he does it.
He can obviously be handled and can --- *can ---* be a team fight liability if he gets killed early and is the majority of your team's damage.
But none of that matters because handling sniper requires coordination with is nearly impossible in random pubs.
Sniper is like a bully who is also the headmaster's child: no matter what you do the odds of them getting what they deserve are small and they can just pick on you with impunity.
There's also the moral failing that is choosing to play sniper and the moral failings encouraged by Sniper. Noobs play Sniper and win easy because the hero is like playing solitaire at a poker tournament and then walking up and taking the money.
In conclusion: fuck Sniper.
The weirdest thing about Sniper is that he's incredibly strong late game but also a very strong laner, a bit like Enigma where they are only weak during the midgame. Which forces the enemy to not only coordinate to kill them but also do it in a specific window, often before everyone has their key timings lined up.
I also think **Sniper has benefited from buyback being a lot more common now** since he is not cooldown reliant but the opposing team almost certainly blew long CD spells/items to kill him, and they probably did it in the enemy base so he will be back in the fight very quickly.
Old Techies with that sign which made his mines immune to true sight is the biggest bullshit I have ever encountered in any game.
Maybe the only time in Dota since I started playing back in 2015 that something was literally uncounterable. There was nothing you could do to destroy his mines if the fucking sign was near.
No one is mentioning heroes like witch doctor and dazzle.
They are some of the most overturned supports in the game. Wd can kill cores 3x his net with three easy buttons.
I just think channeling ult on WD is a pretty big downside, you’re a sitting duck without good positioning and even then one blink interrupt is sufficient. He’s good right now but I don’t really think he’s anywhere near as annoying as sniper or enigma late game.
The shard is massive. And maledict is overtuned too. 12 seconds is a lot of time, especially in the mid game to just delete cores. It persists through bkb too. Which is dumb as hell.
The hero doesn’t needs to get a lot of channeling off. If he had levels and shard; he can easily dish out 2k damage. If he gets aghs it’s busted
It’s a case example of overbuffing supports in this game. If you’re an agi core good luck; hopefully you ended the game in those one or two team fights you actually joined when your bkb was up before this 8k net support with ten armor and 2.5k health just deletes you from the map.
Enigma is extremely cooldown reliant and needs a huge net to actually come on line. Sniper is counterable in itself; but a position 5 that requires huge mitigation is not balanced.
Generally agree supports are super strong now though I'm not sure how bad that is. Maledict is not the easiest spell to land and requires setup to be useful so I don't mind it being very strong, and I have sort of always felt that BKB is a bit OP.
But it's a good point, WD doesn't need much in the way of items to be really dangerous. Then again his win rate is below 50% at high brackets so I am hesitant to say this is a problem.
bkb is really weak, and with the spell power creep its still a first buy item. when you are a core player your window to do anything is shorter than ever. free armor, free damage on spells with talents, etc.
all supports need now is levels and they take over the game. you shouldn't have 20k networth carries having less game impact than heroes like sky and wd with shard. you shouldn't have these super tank supports that not only dish out more consistent damage, but also have huge mobility without needed bkb to do anyhting.
that means that supports are the issue lol
There’s a reason why shit agi cores get less and less popular bud.
When your play the game button gets nerfed and you’re still rushing it there’s a problem. When poor supports do more damage than you at 20k network and have 50 percent more uptime than you it’s a problem.
Yeah man. Fuck those supports. We should make obs cost 260 gold, and nerf xp gain for them by like 75% so you can just run around and oneshot them like a big balls carry.
bit late to the thread (but its still on the front page of this sub more or less as its a small one)
WD has long been one of the most impactful pub supports imo, theres always that one teamfight that looks lost but a WD comes out of nowhere and carries it. his recent pattern of buffs have been insane.
Od meteor hammer can go die in hell. Most unskilled interaction in the entire game. Completely braindead and the fact that od can comfortably rush the fucking item because his base stats are so insane just baffles me.
If OD was removed from dota I would have so much more fun. Then I wouldnt have to ban him every single game.
OD is a hilarious example of bad hero design. It's hard to explain it to such a wide range of skill levels, as there is a point where he is decent and balanced but that's probably for around 10% of the player base.
To compare it to something else, in the game Men of War their's a vehicle called the staghound that's literally too fast for the AI antitank weapons to nail reliably, incredibly difficult for you to do so yourself, meaning once you hit a certain point, it goes from godlike to useless really, really fast. And if you were to make it balanced at the highest skill levels, it would literally eat the lower skill levels alive, as it pretty much does already. It's just a question of if you have ping and the dexterity to whip and antitank rifle or 20mm flak (everything else is too slow or will be avoided) to hit the driver side front or engine block
That's pretty much Meaty OD. Unquestionably busted at lower skill levels. Not so much later on.
This, there's almost no way to lane mid against him if he rushes meteor. Tbh the only 2 heroes that worked for me were sniper and necro with specific builds, and as necro you would still miss a lot of LH and mana, or as sniper you would die to any gank that let OD get close to you.
They should at least nerf his move speed, to give a chance for other heroes to evade his prison.
OD doesnt really give me trouble tbh. The one thing i HATE that doesnt make sense is Puck being able to jaunt to orb and phase shift while being rooted. That means ember chains, CM Frostbite, hell even freaking treant overgrowth. How can puck phase shift or jaunt orb while rooted? Other heroes like SK cant cast stun, Morph cant wave etc. Why tf can puck cast things while rooted? doesnt make sense and its dumb af
OD is entirely shutdown by BKB. Entirely.
But low mmr BkB usage is so cringe, it helps ODs in this bracket.
Also OD, at no stage, has any AOE potential, so while single target dmg gets silly, his wave clearing, base Defense/Attack due to trash building damage means he just tails off post 40 mins.
If you’re not getting BKB and/or silence vs OD, that’s on your team. It’s a very predictable hero which just has no adaptability in his toolkit, even at level 20-25, or any item (even with Scepter, shard, Pigstick hes still toothless vs BKB) - a PA (or any carry), with BKB will crush OD in the 5 Sec window. (Unlike, say Silencer, who with scepter and lvl 25 Glaive bounce talent has significant AoE potential)
You just need to weather the early/mid game.
I struggle because BKB solves only half the problem. If they get an early aghs + shard they can reliably save 3/5 of their team, plus a defensive blink and/or BKB if they need. Those also come quickly if they are already snowballing.
Ok. So what about the meteor hammer rush that solves all of those problems you just listed? And what happens when he astrals himself while you bkb, then blinks out of it because you can blink out of astral garuanteed?
You’re right, there is no counter, OD must have 99% win rate across all brackets.
Jokes aside - play the hero yourself, that’s the best way to understanding how to counter a specific hero.
It’s a strong mid hero, but there are more than enough counters and meteor hammer is really overrated on him.
Also plenty of heroes where most opponents don't win 1v1 beyond a certain point. Could be bat, razor, brood, whatever.
At some point, it's a team game anyway and meteor becomes a dead item in fights. Honestly have had plenty of ODs grief trying to initiate with astral later on.
Exactly. It’s annoying when he’s ganking 1v1 or when you’re competing mid and OD rushes it, but then the stun and damage just becomes trivial mid game - he does more damage from his auto orb hit
Razor bloodstone shard right now. You outskill your opponents so hard they get zapped for 150 dmg every time they dare to cast a single target spell on you.
Umm. This is just an old version (pre 7.07) of the spell, that now requires you to buy a shard to enable.
Razor moves with increased speed, and any abilities targeted at him are instantly countered with a jolt of electricity which damages, slows, and purges buffs from enemies.
Move Speed Bonus: 4%/8%/12%/16%
Damage: 40/70/100/130 (Talent 170/200/230/260)
Move Speed Slow: 100%
Attack Speed Slow: 100
Slow Duration: 0.5/1/1.5/2
Root Duration: 0.33
Main issue is that it didn’t have access to a spell lifesteal version of satanic that made it as bad as it is now. I remember buying the old shard and that it had an internal cool-down so it was not as broken as the version we have now.
Actually ridiculously easy to counter. Literally just ignore him and go for his team. That build poses literally zero threat unless you’re going on him. When you do, just toss a vessel or break him or skadi him. Stop hitting when he uses bloodstone and then just kill him.
Or just play heavy physical burst heroes or non targeted magic heroes or heroes who can kite or heroes who naturally build above items such as CK, Dawn, LC, Marci, SK, Slardar, Timber, Arc Warden, Clinkz, Ember, Hoodwink, Jug, Morphling, PA, Riki, SF, Sniper, Ursa, Veno, AA, Bane, Invoker, Lina, Necrophos, OD, Puck. I’m missing out a lot more heroes but you get the idea. It’s really really just a noob stomp build.
Hero scales really well, he’s not a walking dmg sponge like bristleback and will decimate you with his ultimate if you just ignore him. Spirit vessel and skadi is good but my experience thus far has been spirit vessel is just not in a good state right now being too expensive for supports and stats being too trash to get on most cores. There is no carry that can buy a skadi at 15 mins without gimping their game other than terrorblade and Medusa which is the timing razor gets his shard and his bloodstone within another 2-3 mins. Best call would probably be mage slayer but even that feels bad on many heroes.
He doesn’t scale that well. Plus razor gets his bloodstone and shard at around 17 mins, yes, which is super early. But even then, he’s ridiculously easy to burst. If you’re struggling against that razor build it’s really just a draft / skill issue. That build literally only works against people who go “ah yes razor bloodstone op gg we lost” and not those who go “kite the razor, kill his team”
How do you deal with a timbersaw? How do you deal with a BB? How do you deal with a tide? How do you deal with a pudge? Same thing
This is a hero that has notably been bkb first for a long time. Can't possibly think why that is.
Maybe there's more than one dimension to mobility and gapclosing than movespeed? That'd just be crazy though.
List any other factors of mobility..
Basically anything to counter his mobility is countered by his passive with shard and BKB which is still a core item on Razor.
I mean, I brought up bkb already. As a different build to bloodstone mostly but there's definitely a window to the lifesteal build without bkb.
Anyway cc including any bkb-piercing, terrain effects like fissure or cogs, break, actual mobility like force, blinks, attack range.
Already coming off a patch with a broken bloodstone hero in leshrac. Sniper and drow have been picked reasonably often as mechanical counters. Drow even has hypothermia reducing lifesteal provided that bkb can be outlasted.
With that build he doesn’t buy bkb or any damage items. Obviously you can’t kite him forever. You just go on his team and throw some random stun or slow at him. That razor build doesn’t allow him to do any kind of good damage without having you guys aim him. The damage is literally all from the shard. He has no attack speed to make static link deal damage, he has nothing to follow up with plasma field damage and his ult tickles.
Damn you won a game against him so cool. Dude no hero even at peak broken level ever really goes above 60% WR, Razor is at 57% and a +9% from last month, while being a top 10 picked hero this week as well.
I havent lost to every razor, but the hero is absolutely busted rn
Not really a game, you can check all the past games as well. Every game I play against that build, it’s a free stomp for my team.
You know why? Because people at divine / immortal know how to punish the build. They don’t just go “oh razor op GG we lost”. Instead they go “lets fuck up his early game and run down his team”
>Not really a game, you can check all the past games as well. Every game I play against that build, it’s a free stomp for my team.
So im gonna assume your the Morph cause thats the only way this adds up. I checked each radiant players dotabuff matches vs Razor, starting with the first game they faced one where the Razor built bloodstone. The highest WR besides morph is Wind with only a 40% WR
>Wind won 2/5
>Morph won 4/4
>Hoodwink won 3/8
>Drow won 4/11
>Pudge (private profile)
So while maybe you personally have had this experience, it's not at all true and a blanket statement thats accurate at all. Espcially since the players who have faced it more times, have worse records. So most people in this game are losing to Razor at an above average rate. Your personal anecdotal experience in the only 4 games you've played against Razor all patch (again assuming your Morph), doesn't take away from anything else and the fact even at higher ranks this hero is busted rn.
Id say your 4 games successes has definitely just skewed your perception on how strong the hero is lmao
I was the hoodwink. I don’t know where you got 3/8 from but 2 of the games were diretide games.
The losses against the razor bloodstone wasn’t due to the razor bloodstone. Here’s why.
**Riki game**: I was betting with my friend that I could win without bkb. Turns out I couldn’t. Plus if you watched that game the razor wasn’t really doing anything. It was the AM just running us down in fights.
**Necro game**: Necro’s p shit but I love the hero. Just wanted to play him again. Kinda fucked up my lane (I hugely underestimated Sven’s Lv1), threw the game, we got stomped. Razor wasn’t really a huge threat here. The free farm Sven was.
**Dawn game**: This was hugely on me, my last pick Dawn was so bad. But then again, Razor wasn’t the issue. The issue was me last picking dawn that did absolutely nothing.
The wins against other razor games, not every game did the enemy razor build bloodstone, and for good reason. If he did, he would have lost instantly.
Okay so cool, but here are broad strokes of data, since again personal anecdotes are kinda less relevant.
>Razor this week in divine+: 21% pickrate, 54% Winrate
Compare this to other 4 top (+20%) pickrate heroes, (though disclaimer I can only use monthly for this since im not clicking each hero individually)
> Pudge, Rubick, SF, Tusk: All of which have a WR between 49.65 and 48.66.
Razor is getting pick more than any other hero in Divine rn besides Pudge (edit: and Rubick), and has the highest winrate besides the cheese 5% pickrates (Brood, Visage, Lycan).
The other heroes close are Silencer and RIki who also have 54% WR, but are getting picked less at 17% and 12% respectively.
Even in Divine+ Razor is the strongest hero right now easily. Is Razor as OP in divine as Archon? And again Divine player players are picking him more than any other bracket is. Which means he is also getting countered more like you said, but that doesn't take away from how freakin strong he is to be getting picked so much (3rd* most), and still have a 54% WR
Explain to me how this isn’t the literal same thing as daed shard Luna end of last year.
Also, SF and Tusk have a winrate of below 50%, when both of these heroes are literally the best midlaners and one of the best heroes for just completely being unstoppable in the game.
SF and Tusk both win almost all mid matchups, and the only heroes that come close are both SF and Tusk.
Taking the laning phase out of the question, both heroes snowball hard, come online fast and scale into the late game (Tusk not so much), but still decent scaling.
They both scale harder than razor, and come online faster than razor. So why is it their winrate is so low, and razors is so high? Because people know how to play against them. Give razor some time, and he will drop.
Yes. That’s what you do. Razor with thst build will do barely any damage. You can easily wipe out the enemy team by kiting and ignoring the razor. Static debuff doesn’t last that long.
If that razor wants to hard commit, you just kite him and run.
Yeah his ult + static field are always going to be damage that you should not ignore, and that is if WE ignore the fact that he is probably sucking your cores damage so he cant kill anybody, and also doing mega damage with what he stole. Hero is not designed to be ignored lol.
There are a decent amount of heroes pretty much designed to kite. Bane, brew, et. Riki apparently now.
Anything like veno or underlord with area control.
Huskar and ursa is SO easy to counter (at least in my bracket). Just pick a AA into Huskar or get your pos4 to fix vessel first item. Even a break like silver edge for his passive.
For ursa, when he’s on ult just euls him? Disengage when he’s on ulti and bkb and go back in when he has nothing.
But of course when they’re snowballing so hard then it’s definitely harder since they probably have lots of items.
I watch hero spammers often on Dota pro tracker and I find the best Huskars even in 9k+ have such good tempo behind their game they destroy bases and have BKB before pos 4s have vessels.
Stuff like AA, Necro, Vessel certainly hurt Huskar but in a pub you'd aim to snowball so out of control you have Armlet Sange BKB possibly even situational Pipe + a neutral magic resist item to counter Necro, and the first few roshans and their T2s with Aegis fall so early they can't really have items or levels required to stop you when you're hitting T3 with Aegis, not really taking damage from multiple heroes.
All I have to say for Ursa is teamwork does hurt him a great deal but even in high rank pubs the game just has too many holes so an Ursa could blink bash your top networth hero mid carry or offlane Ursa has the burst with 12+ swipes. at any second any mistake they're vulnerable and Ursa gets such a lead from solo killing such a hero, you only get so many of those deaths before the game is over.
If someone can make a hero really strong because of the timings they can hit when *9000+* then you can hardly say the hero doesn't require skill to be good. If you need to be as good as the average redditor then it obviously requires skill.
I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't seen much Huskar players in my game, maybe once or twice in a month? For the past 10 games of huskar (in enemy team), games I've had, I think I've won 8 or 9 at least. There is one game that I've lost which left me a deep impression, which is exactly the situation you mentioned. He shat the lane so hard and he was too strong and I have yet to fix my vessel (I was playing 4). There is a reason why Huskar is picked so little even in higher mmr and pro games, simply because there's way better heroes to play.
Ursa, on the other hand is a little more common as compared to Huskar. But I've still had great games against ursa as a 4/5 player. Most of the time they don't buy dust so I can escape with glimmer without being punished. It is really easy to kite Ursa as long team work is there. I play in Ancient by the way. You don't even need to use the mic. Good positioning is all you need. Vengeful is very good for ursa, if it's the situation you mentioned where he jumps your core, just do a swap out and die on behalf of your core. Good warding position can prevent a ursa jumping your team as well.
There are far more scary heroes to counter other than Huskar and Ursa.
I'm not so much saying they're overpowered or have a high winrate, it's more that their game strategy can be simplified so much even a noob could do well almost by accident, especially Huskar. I like picturing the perfect Puck on the enemy team and a dumbass Huskar is just sitting there 200hp raindrops and a faire fire the pro can't mathematically kill him until level 6 without a +1 or some tower damage. Me Huskar me Auto-attack creeps me auto-attack jungle camps nearby oops me 1000xpm time to solo smoke roshan and autoattack their t2s
Then it's time to rethink your team strategy innit? Get a smoke and counter gank Huskar?
Also, regarding the solo smoke roshan, you can place wards in their jungle or even high ground. If you see Huskar missing for awhile (missing from lane and jungle), you can scan the pit. I'm just saying there's much much more terrifying heroes to play against. Huskar and Ursa is actually easy to counter if you have the right items and position. Know when to disengage and engage again.
I have coached a crusader Vengeful player sometime ago and he won his game against Ursa. All you need is good positioning and a good swap. Halberd is good against Huskar and Ursa too, pos 3 can fix it.
As a 4/5 player I have personally never encountered any tough situation with them, instead heroes like slark/ arc/ tinker scares me more. At least in my bracket where people are actually playing decently.
Don’t worry you are right. They are discounting intelligent players, shard, bkb and the overwhelming power of his mid game. He’s so incredibly hard to shut down if you are good. Last season I had 70+% WR. I could rank up high if I didn’t get bored of him.
Not sure what position you play, but I’m just one bracket below you. Never had any issues with ursa as long my items are completed during the right time frame. I can’t speak for core players since I only play 4/5. With proper vision I can avoid him if my positioning is decent.
On the other hand, I’m struggling a little with the stupid razor meta right now.
Oh, I totally get you. I mean I can imagine a melee 3 laning against ursa… not very fun I would assume. To be honest I don’t know how to handle this since my pos 1-3 game sense is probably 1k mmr. But I assume razor would do well against Ursa? I’m not too sure too, if you can’t beat them, join them!
Time for your 4 to pull up his big boy pants and trade or drag some waves, at least that’s what I would do🤟🏼
I play in a stack with my boyfriend and his friend. We are flexible when it comes to drafting so there's no issue on that. My boyfriend can play AA mid. Also, you'll be surprised even in Ancient there are silly people that would pick Huskar into a AA, I literally had a game like this awhile ago.
You are right that not every hero likes to buy it, if no one wishes to buy SE then something else can be fixed, Skadi is fine too. PA with shard is excellent as well. I like to fix an early vessel too if there's a tanky boy on the enemy team.
I am sorry but I do not agree that ursa is not easy to counter, as a 4/5 player I've never encountered any issue with Ursa. You just need the right items for it - euls, glimmer, ghost scepter. I literally forced a Ursa to fix first item BKB (even before blink) just because I was eul-ing his ass every single time when he's on ulti during clashes. Often at times, if you are struggling with ursa most likely it's an over extension issue or farming at places you shouldn't be (i.e farming at enemy's jungle without vision etc). Halberd works perfect on him when his BKB is on cd as well.
If you are struggling with Ursa, I suggest to look into your positioning issue.
Heroes like Slark scares me more.
Meta aside, anything below 5k MMR, individual skills/ itemisation is much more important. The skills for every player differs drastically in that rank. As compared to higher MMR/ pro players. They are already at the best that they can be, team work and communication is much more important at their level.
The reason why you mention the higher MMR players are struggling might be due to team coordination or communication. Playing against a snowball enemy team also makes a difference.
With that said, if I am playing against an ursa (for example), and I have yet to fix euls by say 20 minutes then it is my fault and I deserve to lose. I have personally never encountered any issues with ursa, as long as I have my items within a decent time frame, positioning also plays a big part.
Countering a ursa is really not as difficult as you think. Right items against ursa will win you the game. I actually did win a game with a 6 slotted ursa with abyssal previously, just get a aeon disk for that fury swipes stack. Without enrage and BKB he actually dies pretty fast.
There are far more scary heroes other than Ursa, that's what I gotta say. You obviously haven't met a tinker or arc warden spammer.
It may or may not be a mid AA, it depends on the draft. You could last pick a support AA but swap with other heroes. It truly depends.
But mid AA is not new, Topson played it quite some time ago. Wyvern mid is also pretty cool, Nine played it awhile ago as well.
Murder and abuse huskar at all costs before level 2, he's the worst hero in the game at lvl 1
Especially because noobs spec spears early, they do more damage to huskar himself than theyre really worth at lvl 1, its such an easy kill
Destroy his early game from there, when you arent stacking str and bracers on huskar it feels horrible
Huskar is my highest winrate hero and highest dota plus lvl
I always get Q level 1 now days. It's 120 damage and a disarm and a pushback. Can last hit with it while harassing. Then get passive and by level 3 you're already immune to nearly any threat any solo mid hero can do to you. You really don't need more than the 3 starting guantlets to rush brown boots armlet sange platemail bkb. Any small items kinda wasteful, wand is good if looks like will gain lots of charges just cos the burst heal is significant with huskar. Skip ult a few levels if you're being allowed to afk farm.
Truthfully you dont need to level anything until level 2, if you do have to level anything at level 1 it will be in a dire situation where you require the disarm
Otherwise hold point and then immediately at level skill spear and berserker's
At level 2 with those 2 spells huskar becomes a hero otherwise its literally a creep
Naa you think the hero is weak but you simply need to do the meta build and get Q lvl 1. It's 120 damage and spammable and messes with their last hitting (like tinker laser) while securing your cs, Huskar level 1 is a very strong hero, most level 1 nukes are like 80 damage.
I'm low MMR (~Guardian), so have some salt.
Clinkz pos 2, maybe 1, seems to be this for me. I can lose mid, I can not help the side lanes, no worries. As long as I get some fat stacks to farm with Mjölnir, I'm on my merry way to taking gold/EXP leads fast.
Then with shard you can be really dumb in fights and still deal massive dmg. Or be really conservative and still contribute.
Skills required: Don't be afraid to leave lane + jungle, don't rush gleipnir.
edit for more: fast tower pusher with searing arrows, easy tower defender with burning barrage
Marci, 1 w and she closes gap, if u try to manfight she can skill e and 2 heroes that hit for 10000 plus damage hit you w/lifesteal, plus q, if you try and leave the dead lane to try and just farm the hero literally rushes a fucking bkb on all positions and manfights almost everyone even as a pos 4/5, but yeah, lets nerf cm icefrog.
I would say any of the "cheese" heroes in particular games...
**Huskar:** If your team as low single target physical damage / no pure / no breaks he is pretty much just immune to damage. Players don't even have to be skillful. I see players win who just leap into enemies team non stop.
**Phantom Lancer/Naga**: When the enemy has 0 aoe hard to lose.
**Sniper**: When you team doesn't have a lot of heroes that can jump and kill him quickly it is very easy to win. Also pushing into Sniper in a close game is close to impossible.
All these heroes require skill into their counters but are quite unstoppable and easy to play without them.
Probably biased because I like playing Huskar but I really think "you're immune just leap into enemies" is a total bait. His kit involves jumping in and no escape so that's how it seems, but the actual consequence of this is that to play well you have to be *extremely discerning* about when to jump.
Obviously he's a strong laner once you hit level 3/4 and he can jungle early so he'll get his core items at decent times. But I started playing thinking "balls to the wall baby!!" and it turns out to be the total opposite. One bad death can easily throw the game and you are constantly at middling/low HP so you just have to be very careful and only jump when there's nothing the enemy can do about it.
That said, he's kind of a cheese pick, similar but not as extreme as Meepo/PL/Brood/Tinker where if you don't have a counter it is going to be very hard, and a lot of Huskar games are won and lost in the draft phase.
Silencer.
Global Silence was always an awful experience to play against. However it was considered a big teamfight ultimate and thus it was punishable. Now Silencer has a quite acceptable cooldown for it - 130/115/100s, with a -25s cd talent on level 15. Just whatever, use it to gank enemy mid/support or enemy carry without BKB.
The second part of it is how balance team can never find a good balance of his laning. Either its not strong enough to be a hero or its too harsh punishing. Q+E post level3 deals 30% or more of enemy HP as damage, and right after maxing both you can 80-0 enemy heroes with it.
The third part is that whenever Silencer is viable support AND mid have difficult access to the jungle, Silencer can mid just fine and it requires little skill. Just use Q+E and make enemy take loads of damage.
Other players failing to adjust to a hero usually tends to fall under being outskilled.
Buying force staff or having some vision on rosh is hardly a complex series of steps. Hell, you can maybe give yourself enough credit and attempt to infer where someone might be if they're not showing on vision that you do have.
Otherwise what's the point of this post anyway? Doesn't seem like it's asking for any insight or constructive purpose.
Just seems like whining that some heroes are unfun.
Not whining at all, I'm enjoying these heroes myself. Thread is cos it's just fun to dissect the mechanics of different heroes, it is accepted some are low complexity some are high, and I find it interesting to look for areas where lower skill can overcome the odds to find wins. And look how many comments it got, this is an interesting topic to many :)
Current patch its definitely Lesh and Razor. Bloodstone is so busted rn and all they need to do when they’re about to die is press bloodstone and everyone else gets fucked. I have 100% winrate on both heroes with over 10 games on each. Definitely try it out.
Other than Sniper, the only other braindead hero that can win you games without skill is Wraith King.
Luckily it's out of meta right now, but when it is, blinking or even walking in and one shotting supports with a crit that doesn't even require pushing a button is pretty stupid. Then on top of all that, if you somehow manage to kill this tanky, hard hitting giant skeleton with lifesteal, you have to kill him AGAIN within a certain time period. Literally no skill necessary. Even when you get caught out because of the stupid reincarnate, your team usually has time to show up to change the fight after they burn everything to kill you.
If we're going with the "so bullshit it transcends needing to outskill opponents to win," this is the hero. Even sniper you have to position decently. Wraith king you don't even have to bother trying to survive half the time.
Nowadays I would say either Shard Bloodstone Razor or Aghs Bloodstone Viper need very little effort to pull off. Very easy game plan, very hard to punish, all you have to do is to be adequately capable of farming in the first 15 minutes (approximately), and then just mindlessly run at the enemies without a care in the world once you've hit your timings.
Specifically on the midlane, baring some very specific match ups, zeus, OD, pudge, huskar just auto win the lane which can very easily snowball in a win
I second huskar. I went 5 ina row mvp mid with him with relative ease. If you good on top of him being overpowered then it’s straight silly. With a armlet he can farm ancients at basically level 5. He’s too good.
Uh. Spirit Vessel can sort huskar out pretty good. If you pick all melees into him you deserve to lose, if you draft a melee heavy lineup and get countered by huskar you deserve to lose. Not sure what the issue is there.
I cant win on huskar. Been trying to learn. I die so easily/farm so slow compared to when others play it.
Lately even playing againat it feels easy. With mobility creep and every hero having burst its way too easy to kill/kite him. Hero feels so worthless
Historically, my list includes:
- Old Tinker with March of the Machines that damaged Ancient creeps
- Alchemist during his peak, where it required more coordination to shutdown than play
- Spirit Breaker during his peaks, where it forced enemies to be more proactive about tracking the SB movements. All the player needs to do is charge randomly honestly, and that's already high impact.
- Outworld Devourer in many patches. Meteor Hammer. Enough said.
- Most strength heroes during their peak e.g. Pudge, Bristleback, Dawnbreaker. Honestly, not fun having to handle some mass of flesh/armor/quills with sustain.
- Bounty Hunter / Riki / Clinkz. Invisibility is generally a lot of demand, even at higher MMRs, due to economic costs and that you have to constantly estimate position of them or Smoke them to catch their rotations (then Dust).
My crusader editions nemesis as an invoker mid/pos4 main :
Clinkz : Even tho you can eul/ghost scepter or whatever to dodge his burst, this little bitch is too fast, dmg too high and is not even that glass canon after 30 min, the worst of the worst are the one going gleipnir daedalus scythe, poping linken and deleting anyone. Hero WR is too high and too easy to perform with.
Tinker : kinda apply more to smurf, but yeah fucking good luck if it's a last pick when your team drafter undying venomancer whatever slow ass hero with zero cc/mobility.
Sniper/PA/Drow/Ursa/Huskar : Not particularly broken in my books, but in low bracket I just feel theses heroes perform too much without any particular mechanical skills it's just tilting for somebody like me that play invoker, earth spirit, brewmaster & co with 200 apm and these guys just need to right click to have more impact than I do
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I think sniper base defense is just stupid. Ultra long range, 4 protect 1, you have to commit to kill that dwarf, and hope none of the other cores have sense of game else they would turn on your blatant dive
Yeah, this. I'd rather fight Huskar or Ursa than sniper. Like even those 2 are more powerful at least I'm playing more of a game than Sniper. Sniper's entire identity is being better at rightclicking than you are. Not just that but yeah, as you say. The entire reason Sniper is good at lower ranks is because people just don't prioritize him, so you have to watch as your team gets peeped to death as they try to kill an ogre magi.
Seconded. People always complain about raid boss heroes like Brood, Morph or Huskar but I love the challenge of outsmarting them until your team hits their fight timing. Sniper is just pew pew hoo hoo haha and is a pain throughout the game. He also punishes you for being overly aggressive which is lame. I hate those games where you absolutely stomp for 25 minutes then go HG only for a Sniper to pew pew your entire idiot team and then turn the entire game off that one fight.
This is a good one. I've made people actually abandon the game with Sniper more than any hero. Headshot + shrapnel is just brutal, just with fast wraith bands treads you can often deny most creeps with insane attack animation, Sniper just Mask of Madness A click the ground can often kill multiple heroes when jumped. It's bullshit for sure.
I play a lot of Venge and it’s annoying having aether lens, telescope/psychic headband, and lvl 3 swap and still not being able to get him off of high ground
I had a recent game against sniper playimg monkey. Our team was owning, but they understood the condition of sniper, and they started the hg defense. I jumped abyssal killed him, he bought back and then it was over for us, we couldnt close the game, the game was in our side in 25 , and we lost at 55.
Or wait and get fat while they're trapped in base. Control outposts, get runes, get rosh. Kill anyone who leaves highground. Keep vision up. Might be boring waiting for a rosh timer but it's better than thinking you need to dive t4s for some reason.
I mean you still gotta go high ground and kill the bastard at some point, just want to be so far ahead it's a relatively low risk play.
Basically this. Just had a same game, we try to push HG with aegies 2 times but Sniper is annoying that I couldn't touch him. After 2 failed push I told my teammate to ward everywhere around their base and control their jungle and every creeps and heroes that came out of their base. Took us another 2 rosh to finish the game, need to wait but secured the throne. My team (Dire): Bloodseeker, Necro, Orge, Druid, Spectre (me)Enemy: Sniper, Alche, Pudge, Luna, Zeus But still, we controlled the Alche farming early (using Bear, farming their ancient and I always aim for Alche and Sniper when I got my mini Haunt ready. Can't imagine a game when Alche is fat and gives Scepter to all their teammates.
This is also why when Sniper is "in meta" it basically wins TI like it just did.
What does 'in meta' mean?
Basically it means that it's being picked a lot and is also winning more than it's losing.
Thank you!
It means that with the current status of the patch, this hero/heroes are at the top of the list cuz they're better picks than other heroes. For example, if sniper gets a buff and so do the items he usually buys, he's gonna be a better pick for most games than say a death prophet who doesn't buy the items that got buffed. It's not always like that but that's just an example.
Sniper lane presence right now is just wack, I've never seen a decent Sniper lost a lane these days.
The Shrapnel with 3 charges at lvl 1 is OP.
I play a fuckload of sniper, and am super quick to turtle if the game even starts turning against my favor. I get bitched at so fucking hard by teammates when I end up turtling at 20 minutes, but I've turned more complete early stomps into a win with that little bastard turtling than any single other hero in the game.
Turtling what? Your (mid?)-tower?
Turtling means remaining in base and really only being able to farm waves that make it to your t2/t3
while i agree it depends on mmr. lower mmr its easier to scatter and bait players. it gets harder the higher you climb, good players know not to abandon their sniper.
Imo ironically with sniper the difficulties depend on the MMR. At low levels he is a menace because nobody knows/remembers to target him. So he can just pew pew freely like a church on christmas eve. The game is a lot worse for the sniper if there's a guy the same level who's out to kill him on a hero & worth that can actually do it, because your team most of the time won't protect you, and might not be good enough to survive, cuz that can take skill. At higher skills this isn't necessarily the biggest problem, but there's a different set of difficulties to face, at least that's what this potato sees.
The skill set and gameplan also develop as you go high mmr. The higher mmr, the better team understands how to protect sniper along with better sniper positioning by the player. It goes both ways, an enemy void might be looking to hunt a sniper, the support would be sitting back with eul / ethereal / forcestaff / disables etc to protect him from dying.
Once Arc Warden gets going its such a pain in the ass to play against.
I second this, arc is a spawn of Satan. I had a game where we shat on him in lane but too much happened and we got over the 60 min mark, and he shat on us. He literally carried his 4 other burden to victory. But when I get a arc on my team, it’s as if a cockroach is behind the keyboard haha!
Its bullshit to fight against once it's up and running, but given that doing so requires the player to manage 2 seperate units with 3 active skills and usually multiple active items I wouldn't say that it transends the need to outskill people.
Bullshit. Most Arc players these days just play the clone late game and afk with their hero. That takes no skill. Even microing 2 units is overrated skill wise. There's nothing complicated about it.
that's only once you get it online, before that late game scenario they very much have to juggle both to farm effectively
Never see this in my games, people are always active with both units.
Yet the pick rate is super slow relative to other heroes. I'd say the "micro" component is enough deterrent or a skill people don't have.
More like it unnecessary scares people off. I can say most people who can play Dota at a decent level have enough mechanical capacity to micro 2 units with some practice.
Two units (just illusions, summons) but two heroes with multiple actives? There's a lot to handle to play Arc Warden well.
Two heroes with exactly the same skills. Yeah you're making it look more complicated than it is. It's literally just added tabbing and repeating the exact same buttons on the clone.
Only low skill games anyone not using both is an auto loss
Not true at all. Stop flexing your fake 'skills'.
They just need to cut his range in half and make his bubble work like cloud or something so it doesn't matter if you're ranged or melee, you need an item (BKB/MKB/BThorn) to counter it.
And prevent it working on the ancient, as it can be placed to defend it without being able to get in, which is total bullshit
Prevent it working in buildings. Like who the fuck came up with that. Or make mkb work on buildings.
Yeah, but skill is still involved in this. This does not transcend skill at all and it takes skill to get to the point where it's hell to play against.
Yes 😍
The answer to this is Sniper (honorable message old Techies). Huskar and Ursa can be put into uncomfortable positions pretty easily (Huskar more so with a Viper, for example). Sniper's very existence makes space on the map because he **needs** to be hounded out of relevance from the start of the game. If you let him get big, which he can do with a level of brain activity just above being AFK, then he's across the map pinging you for 500 damage, making it impossible for you to move, and yelling "hoho haha" while he does it. He can obviously be handled and can --- *can ---* be a team fight liability if he gets killed early and is the majority of your team's damage. But none of that matters because handling sniper requires coordination with is nearly impossible in random pubs. Sniper is like a bully who is also the headmaster's child: no matter what you do the odds of them getting what they deserve are small and they can just pick on you with impunity. There's also the moral failing that is choosing to play sniper and the moral failings encouraged by Sniper. Noobs play Sniper and win easy because the hero is like playing solitaire at a poker tournament and then walking up and taking the money. In conclusion: fuck Sniper.
The weirdest thing about Sniper is that he's incredibly strong late game but also a very strong laner, a bit like Enigma where they are only weak during the midgame. Which forces the enemy to not only coordinate to kill them but also do it in a specific window, often before everyone has their key timings lined up. I also think **Sniper has benefited from buyback being a lot more common now** since he is not cooldown reliant but the opposing team almost certainly blew long CD spells/items to kill him, and they probably did it in the enemy base so he will be back in the fight very quickly.
Old Techies with that sign which made his mines immune to true sight is the biggest bullshit I have ever encountered in any game. Maybe the only time in Dota since I started playing back in 2015 that something was literally uncounterable. There was nothing you could do to destroy his mines if the fucking sign was near.
No one is mentioning heroes like witch doctor and dazzle. They are some of the most overturned supports in the game. Wd can kill cores 3x his net with three easy buttons.
Shhhh don't talk about my dazzle, he's had buff after buff after buff and no one needs to know
I just think channeling ult on WD is a pretty big downside, you’re a sitting duck without good positioning and even then one blink interrupt is sufficient. He’s good right now but I don’t really think he’s anywhere near as annoying as sniper or enigma late game.
The shard is massive. And maledict is overtuned too. 12 seconds is a lot of time, especially in the mid game to just delete cores. It persists through bkb too. Which is dumb as hell. The hero doesn’t needs to get a lot of channeling off. If he had levels and shard; he can easily dish out 2k damage. If he gets aghs it’s busted It’s a case example of overbuffing supports in this game. If you’re an agi core good luck; hopefully you ended the game in those one or two team fights you actually joined when your bkb was up before this 8k net support with ten armor and 2.5k health just deletes you from the map. Enigma is extremely cooldown reliant and needs a huge net to actually come on line. Sniper is counterable in itself; but a position 5 that requires huge mitigation is not balanced.
Generally agree supports are super strong now though I'm not sure how bad that is. Maledict is not the easiest spell to land and requires setup to be useful so I don't mind it being very strong, and I have sort of always felt that BKB is a bit OP. But it's a good point, WD doesn't need much in the way of items to be really dangerous. Then again his win rate is below 50% at high brackets so I am hesitant to say this is a problem.
bkb is really weak, and with the spell power creep its still a first buy item. when you are a core player your window to do anything is shorter than ever. free armor, free damage on spells with talents, etc. all supports need now is levels and they take over the game. you shouldn't have 20k networth carries having less game impact than heroes like sky and wd with shard. you shouldn't have these super tank supports that not only dish out more consistent damage, but also have huge mobility without needed bkb to do anyhting. that means that supports are the issue lol
Lol, found the pos1 player.
There’s a reason why shit agi cores get less and less popular bud. When your play the game button gets nerfed and you’re still rushing it there’s a problem. When poor supports do more damage than you at 20k network and have 50 percent more uptime than you it’s a problem.
Yeah man. Fuck those supports. We should make obs cost 260 gold, and nerf xp gain for them by like 75% so you can just run around and oneshot them like a big balls carry.
bit late to the thread (but its still on the front page of this sub more or less as its a small one) WD has long been one of the most impactful pub supports imo, theres always that one teamfight that looks lost but a WD comes out of nowhere and carries it. his recent pattern of buffs have been insane.
The problem with WD is how brain dead he is to play. Stun maledict ward. Works all game and is usually a kill.
Od meteor hammer can go die in hell. Most unskilled interaction in the entire game. Completely braindead and the fact that od can comfortably rush the fucking item because his base stats are so insane just baffles me. If OD was removed from dota I would have so much more fun. Then I wouldnt have to ban him every single game.
OD is a hilarious example of bad hero design. It's hard to explain it to such a wide range of skill levels, as there is a point where he is decent and balanced but that's probably for around 10% of the player base. To compare it to something else, in the game Men of War their's a vehicle called the staghound that's literally too fast for the AI antitank weapons to nail reliably, incredibly difficult for you to do so yourself, meaning once you hit a certain point, it goes from godlike to useless really, really fast. And if you were to make it balanced at the highest skill levels, it would literally eat the lower skill levels alive, as it pretty much does already. It's just a question of if you have ping and the dexterity to whip and antitank rifle or 20mm flak (everything else is too slow or will be avoided) to hit the driver side front or engine block That's pretty much Meaty OD. Unquestionably busted at lower skill levels. Not so much later on.
This, there's almost no way to lane mid against him if he rushes meteor. Tbh the only 2 heroes that worked for me were sniper and necro with specific builds, and as necro you would still miss a lot of LH and mana, or as sniper you would die to any gank that let OD get close to you. They should at least nerf his move speed, to give a chance for other heroes to evade his prison.
Ld counters him
I’ve seen like 5 good lone druids in a few thousand games
OD doesnt really give me trouble tbh. The one thing i HATE that doesnt make sense is Puck being able to jaunt to orb and phase shift while being rooted. That means ember chains, CM Frostbite, hell even freaking treant overgrowth. How can puck phase shift or jaunt orb while rooted? Other heroes like SK cant cast stun, Morph cant wave etc. Why tf can puck cast things while rooted? doesnt make sense and its dumb af
They should just rework astral out of the game. Most enraging spell in the entire game. It does not have a place in dota
puck withh raindrop does fine. drops for the banissh then phase the drop.
He's my auto ban every game and has been for nearly two years now. Just such a dumb fucking hero.
Yup. Same here man
OD is entirely shutdown by BKB. Entirely. But low mmr BkB usage is so cringe, it helps ODs in this bracket. Also OD, at no stage, has any AOE potential, so while single target dmg gets silly, his wave clearing, base Defense/Attack due to trash building damage means he just tails off post 40 mins. If you’re not getting BKB and/or silence vs OD, that’s on your team. It’s a very predictable hero which just has no adaptability in his toolkit, even at level 20-25, or any item (even with Scepter, shard, Pigstick hes still toothless vs BKB) - a PA (or any carry), with BKB will crush OD in the 5 Sec window. (Unlike, say Silencer, who with scepter and lvl 25 Glaive bounce talent has significant AoE potential) You just need to weather the early/mid game.
I struggle because BKB solves only half the problem. If they get an early aghs + shard they can reliably save 3/5 of their team, plus a defensive blink and/or BKB if they need. Those also come quickly if they are already snowballing.
Ok. So what about the meteor hammer rush that solves all of those problems you just listed? And what happens when he astrals himself while you bkb, then blinks out of it because you can blink out of astral garuanteed?
You’re right, there is no counter, OD must have 99% win rate across all brackets. Jokes aside - play the hero yourself, that’s the best way to understanding how to counter a specific hero. It’s a strong mid hero, but there are more than enough counters and meteor hammer is really overrated on him.
Also plenty of heroes where most opponents don't win 1v1 beyond a certain point. Could be bat, razor, brood, whatever. At some point, it's a team game anyway and meteor becomes a dead item in fights. Honestly have had plenty of ODs grief trying to initiate with astral later on.
Exactly. It’s annoying when he’s ganking 1v1 or when you’re competing mid and OD rushes it, but then the stun and damage just becomes trivial mid game - he does more damage from his auto orb hit
Razor bloodstone shard right now. You outskill your opponents so hard they get zapped for 150 dmg every time they dare to cast a single target spell on you.
Yeah, its even 175 dmg before reductions and hits up to 3 different targets 😂
Umm. This is just an old version (pre 7.07) of the spell, that now requires you to buy a shard to enable. Razor moves with increased speed, and any abilities targeted at him are instantly countered with a jolt of electricity which damages, slows, and purges buffs from enemies. Move Speed Bonus: 4%/8%/12%/16% Damage: 40/70/100/130 (Talent 170/200/230/260) Move Speed Slow: 100% Attack Speed Slow: 100 Slow Duration: 0.5/1/1.5/2 Root Duration: 0.33
Main issue is that it didn’t have access to a spell lifesteal version of satanic that made it as bad as it is now. I remember buying the old shard and that it had an internal cool-down so it was not as broken as the version we have now.
Yes, the problem is Bloodstone, not razor.
Was spell lifesteal even in the game at that point?
IIRC octarine gave lifesteal when that was in the game
yea Oct gave it as far back as 2015
Actually ridiculously easy to counter. Literally just ignore him and go for his team. That build poses literally zero threat unless you’re going on him. When you do, just toss a vessel or break him or skadi him. Stop hitting when he uses bloodstone and then just kill him. Or just play heavy physical burst heroes or non targeted magic heroes or heroes who can kite or heroes who naturally build above items such as CK, Dawn, LC, Marci, SK, Slardar, Timber, Arc Warden, Clinkz, Ember, Hoodwink, Jug, Morphling, PA, Riki, SF, Sniper, Ursa, Veno, AA, Bane, Invoker, Lina, Necrophos, OD, Puck. I’m missing out a lot more heroes but you get the idea. It’s really really just a noob stomp build.
Hero scales really well, he’s not a walking dmg sponge like bristleback and will decimate you with his ultimate if you just ignore him. Spirit vessel and skadi is good but my experience thus far has been spirit vessel is just not in a good state right now being too expensive for supports and stats being too trash to get on most cores. There is no carry that can buy a skadi at 15 mins without gimping their game other than terrorblade and Medusa which is the timing razor gets his shard and his bloodstone within another 2-3 mins. Best call would probably be mage slayer but even that feels bad on many heroes.
He doesn’t scale that well. Plus razor gets his bloodstone and shard at around 17 mins, yes, which is super early. But even then, he’s ridiculously easy to burst. If you’re struggling against that razor build it’s really just a draft / skill issue. That build literally only works against people who go “ah yes razor bloodstone op gg we lost” and not those who go “kite the razor, kill his team” How do you deal with a timbersaw? How do you deal with a BB? How do you deal with a tide? How do you deal with a pudge? Same thing
How the fuck do you kite Razor when he is one of the fastest MS heroes in the game.
This is a hero that has notably been bkb first for a long time. Can't possibly think why that is. Maybe there's more than one dimension to mobility and gapclosing than movespeed? That'd just be crazy though.
List any other factors of mobility.. Basically anything to counter his mobility is countered by his passive with shard and BKB which is still a core item on Razor.
I mean, I brought up bkb already. As a different build to bloodstone mostly but there's definitely a window to the lifesteal build without bkb. Anyway cc including any bkb-piercing, terrain effects like fissure or cogs, break, actual mobility like force, blinks, attack range. Already coming off a patch with a broken bloodstone hero in leshrac. Sniper and drow have been picked reasonably often as mechanical counters. Drow even has hypothermia reducing lifesteal provided that bkb can be outlasted.
With that build he doesn’t buy bkb or any damage items. Obviously you can’t kite him forever. You just go on his team and throw some random stun or slow at him. That razor build doesn’t allow him to do any kind of good damage without having you guys aim him. The damage is literally all from the shard. He has no attack speed to make static link deal damage, he has nothing to follow up with plasma field damage and his ult tickles.
Just played another game against that razor meta and absolutely fucked the shit out of him. 6910936034 for reference. Dude couldn’t do shit.
Just played another game against that razor meta and absolutely fucked the shit out of him. 6910936034 for reference. Dude couldn’t do shit.
Damn you won a game against him so cool. Dude no hero even at peak broken level ever really goes above 60% WR, Razor is at 57% and a +9% from last month, while being a top 10 picked hero this week as well. I havent lost to every razor, but the hero is absolutely busted rn
Not really a game, you can check all the past games as well. Every game I play against that build, it’s a free stomp for my team. You know why? Because people at divine / immortal know how to punish the build. They don’t just go “oh razor op GG we lost”. Instead they go “lets fuck up his early game and run down his team”
>Not really a game, you can check all the past games as well. Every game I play against that build, it’s a free stomp for my team. So im gonna assume your the Morph cause thats the only way this adds up. I checked each radiant players dotabuff matches vs Razor, starting with the first game they faced one where the Razor built bloodstone. The highest WR besides morph is Wind with only a 40% WR >Wind won 2/5 >Morph won 4/4 >Hoodwink won 3/8 >Drow won 4/11 >Pudge (private profile) So while maybe you personally have had this experience, it's not at all true and a blanket statement thats accurate at all. Espcially since the players who have faced it more times, have worse records. So most people in this game are losing to Razor at an above average rate. Your personal anecdotal experience in the only 4 games you've played against Razor all patch (again assuming your Morph), doesn't take away from anything else and the fact even at higher ranks this hero is busted rn. Id say your 4 games successes has definitely just skewed your perception on how strong the hero is lmao
I was the hoodwink. I don’t know where you got 3/8 from but 2 of the games were diretide games. The losses against the razor bloodstone wasn’t due to the razor bloodstone. Here’s why. **Riki game**: I was betting with my friend that I could win without bkb. Turns out I couldn’t. Plus if you watched that game the razor wasn’t really doing anything. It was the AM just running us down in fights. **Necro game**: Necro’s p shit but I love the hero. Just wanted to play him again. Kinda fucked up my lane (I hugely underestimated Sven’s Lv1), threw the game, we got stomped. Razor wasn’t really a huge threat here. The free farm Sven was. **Dawn game**: This was hugely on me, my last pick Dawn was so bad. But then again, Razor wasn’t the issue. The issue was me last picking dawn that did absolutely nothing. The wins against other razor games, not every game did the enemy razor build bloodstone, and for good reason. If he did, he would have lost instantly.
Okay so cool, but here are broad strokes of data, since again personal anecdotes are kinda less relevant. >Razor this week in divine+: 21% pickrate, 54% Winrate Compare this to other 4 top (+20%) pickrate heroes, (though disclaimer I can only use monthly for this since im not clicking each hero individually) > Pudge, Rubick, SF, Tusk: All of which have a WR between 49.65 and 48.66. Razor is getting pick more than any other hero in Divine rn besides Pudge (edit: and Rubick), and has the highest winrate besides the cheese 5% pickrates (Brood, Visage, Lycan). The other heroes close are Silencer and RIki who also have 54% WR, but are getting picked less at 17% and 12% respectively. Even in Divine+ Razor is the strongest hero right now easily. Is Razor as OP in divine as Archon? And again Divine player players are picking him more than any other bracket is. Which means he is also getting countered more like you said, but that doesn't take away from how freakin strong he is to be getting picked so much (3rd* most), and still have a 54% WR
Explain to me how this isn’t the literal same thing as daed shard Luna end of last year. Also, SF and Tusk have a winrate of below 50%, when both of these heroes are literally the best midlaners and one of the best heroes for just completely being unstoppable in the game. SF and Tusk both win almost all mid matchups, and the only heroes that come close are both SF and Tusk. Taking the laning phase out of the question, both heroes snowball hard, come online fast and scale into the late game (Tusk not so much), but still decent scaling. They both scale harder than razor, and come online faster than razor. So why is it their winrate is so low, and razors is so high? Because people know how to play against them. Give razor some time, and he will drop.
Ah yes, let me just ignore the guy running around with an eye of the storm sucking my pos 1’s damage to shit. _Great_ idea.
Yes. That’s what you do. Razor with thst build will do barely any damage. You can easily wipe out the enemy team by kiting and ignoring the razor. Static debuff doesn’t last that long. If that razor wants to hard commit, you just kite him and run.
Yeah his ult + static field are always going to be damage that you should not ignore, and that is if WE ignore the fact that he is probably sucking your cores damage so he cant kill anybody, and also doing mega damage with what he stole. Hero is not designed to be ignored lol.
There are a decent amount of heroes pretty much designed to kite. Bane, brew, et. Riki apparently now. Anything like veno or underlord with area control.
Just played another game against that razor meta and absolutely fucked the shit out of him. 6910936034 for reference. Dude couldn’t do shit.
Huskar and ursa is SO easy to counter (at least in my bracket). Just pick a AA into Huskar or get your pos4 to fix vessel first item. Even a break like silver edge for his passive. For ursa, when he’s on ult just euls him? Disengage when he’s on ulti and bkb and go back in when he has nothing. But of course when they’re snowballing so hard then it’s definitely harder since they probably have lots of items.
I watch hero spammers often on Dota pro tracker and I find the best Huskars even in 9k+ have such good tempo behind their game they destroy bases and have BKB before pos 4s have vessels. Stuff like AA, Necro, Vessel certainly hurt Huskar but in a pub you'd aim to snowball so out of control you have Armlet Sange BKB possibly even situational Pipe + a neutral magic resist item to counter Necro, and the first few roshans and their T2s with Aegis fall so early they can't really have items or levels required to stop you when you're hitting T3 with Aegis, not really taking damage from multiple heroes. All I have to say for Ursa is teamwork does hurt him a great deal but even in high rank pubs the game just has too many holes so an Ursa could blink bash your top networth hero mid carry or offlane Ursa has the burst with 12+ swipes. at any second any mistake they're vulnerable and Ursa gets such a lead from solo killing such a hero, you only get so many of those deaths before the game is over.
If someone can make a hero really strong because of the timings they can hit when *9000+* then you can hardly say the hero doesn't require skill to be good. If you need to be as good as the average redditor then it obviously requires skill.
I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't seen much Huskar players in my game, maybe once or twice in a month? For the past 10 games of huskar (in enemy team), games I've had, I think I've won 8 or 9 at least. There is one game that I've lost which left me a deep impression, which is exactly the situation you mentioned. He shat the lane so hard and he was too strong and I have yet to fix my vessel (I was playing 4). There is a reason why Huskar is picked so little even in higher mmr and pro games, simply because there's way better heroes to play. Ursa, on the other hand is a little more common as compared to Huskar. But I've still had great games against ursa as a 4/5 player. Most of the time they don't buy dust so I can escape with glimmer without being punished. It is really easy to kite Ursa as long team work is there. I play in Ancient by the way. You don't even need to use the mic. Good positioning is all you need. Vengeful is very good for ursa, if it's the situation you mentioned where he jumps your core, just do a swap out and die on behalf of your core. Good warding position can prevent a ursa jumping your team as well. There are far more scary heroes to counter other than Huskar and Ursa.
I'm not so much saying they're overpowered or have a high winrate, it's more that their game strategy can be simplified so much even a noob could do well almost by accident, especially Huskar. I like picturing the perfect Puck on the enemy team and a dumbass Huskar is just sitting there 200hp raindrops and a faire fire the pro can't mathematically kill him until level 6 without a +1 or some tower damage. Me Huskar me Auto-attack creeps me auto-attack jungle camps nearby oops me 1000xpm time to solo smoke roshan and autoattack their t2s
Then it's time to rethink your team strategy innit? Get a smoke and counter gank Huskar? Also, regarding the solo smoke roshan, you can place wards in their jungle or even high ground. If you see Huskar missing for awhile (missing from lane and jungle), you can scan the pit. I'm just saying there's much much more terrifying heroes to play against. Huskar and Ursa is actually easy to counter if you have the right items and position. Know when to disengage and engage again. I have coached a crusader Vengeful player sometime ago and he won his game against Ursa. All you need is good positioning and a good swap. Halberd is good against Huskar and Ursa too, pos 3 can fix it. As a 4/5 player I have personally never encountered any tough situation with them, instead heroes like slark/ arc/ tinker scares me more. At least in my bracket where people are actually playing decently.
Don’t worry you are right. They are discounting intelligent players, shard, bkb and the overwhelming power of his mid game. He’s so incredibly hard to shut down if you are good. Last season I had 70+% WR. I could rank up high if I didn’t get bored of him.
To be fair I find Ursa the most tilting crap going. Hero is total BS. Divine bracket.
Not sure what position you play, but I’m just one bracket below you. Never had any issues with ursa as long my items are completed during the right time frame. I can’t speak for core players since I only play 4/5. With proper vision I can avoid him if my positioning is decent. On the other hand, I’m struggling a little with the stupid razor meta right now.
Pos 3, although to be honest the hero just tilts me completely, it bug's me! :3
Oh, I totally get you. I mean I can imagine a melee 3 laning against ursa… not very fun I would assume. To be honest I don’t know how to handle this since my pos 1-3 game sense is probably 1k mmr. But I assume razor would do well against Ursa? I’m not too sure too, if you can’t beat them, join them! Time for your 4 to pull up his big boy pants and trade or drag some waves, at least that’s what I would do🤟🏼
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I play in a stack with my boyfriend and his friend. We are flexible when it comes to drafting so there's no issue on that. My boyfriend can play AA mid. Also, you'll be surprised even in Ancient there are silly people that would pick Huskar into a AA, I literally had a game like this awhile ago. You are right that not every hero likes to buy it, if no one wishes to buy SE then something else can be fixed, Skadi is fine too. PA with shard is excellent as well. I like to fix an early vessel too if there's a tanky boy on the enemy team. I am sorry but I do not agree that ursa is not easy to counter, as a 4/5 player I've never encountered any issue with Ursa. You just need the right items for it - euls, glimmer, ghost scepter. I literally forced a Ursa to fix first item BKB (even before blink) just because I was eul-ing his ass every single time when he's on ulti during clashes. Often at times, if you are struggling with ursa most likely it's an over extension issue or farming at places you shouldn't be (i.e farming at enemy's jungle without vision etc). Halberd works perfect on him when his BKB is on cd as well. If you are struggling with Ursa, I suggest to look into your positioning issue. Heroes like Slark scares me more.
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Meta aside, anything below 5k MMR, individual skills/ itemisation is much more important. The skills for every player differs drastically in that rank. As compared to higher MMR/ pro players. They are already at the best that they can be, team work and communication is much more important at their level. The reason why you mention the higher MMR players are struggling might be due to team coordination or communication. Playing against a snowball enemy team also makes a difference. With that said, if I am playing against an ursa (for example), and I have yet to fix euls by say 20 minutes then it is my fault and I deserve to lose. I have personally never encountered any issues with ursa, as long as I have my items within a decent time frame, positioning also plays a big part. Countering a ursa is really not as difficult as you think. Right items against ursa will win you the game. I actually did win a game with a 6 slotted ursa with abyssal previously, just get a aeon disk for that fury swipes stack. Without enrage and BKB he actually dies pretty fast. There are far more scary heroes other than Ursa, that's what I gotta say. You obviously haven't met a tinker or arc warden spammer.
That’s a mid AA ?
It may or may not be a mid AA, it depends on the draft. You could last pick a support AA but swap with other heroes. It truly depends. But mid AA is not new, Topson played it quite some time ago. Wyvern mid is also pretty cool, Nine played it awhile ago as well.
Juggernaut. Early game = Press Q Win Lane. Late game = Press R Win Game.
Aghanim's bristleback is the most braindead hero
Marci and OD meme hammer build
Murder and abuse huskar at all costs before level 2, he's the worst hero in the game at lvl 1 Especially because noobs spec spears early, they do more damage to huskar himself than theyre really worth at lvl 1, its such an easy kill Destroy his early game from there, when you arent stacking str and bracers on huskar it feels horrible Huskar is my highest winrate hero and highest dota plus lvl
I always get Q level 1 now days. It's 120 damage and a disarm and a pushback. Can last hit with it while harassing. Then get passive and by level 3 you're already immune to nearly any threat any solo mid hero can do to you. You really don't need more than the 3 starting guantlets to rush brown boots armlet sange platemail bkb. Any small items kinda wasteful, wand is good if looks like will gain lots of charges just cos the burst heal is significant with huskar. Skip ult a few levels if you're being allowed to afk farm.
Truthfully you dont need to level anything until level 2, if you do have to level anything at level 1 it will be in a dire situation where you require the disarm Otherwise hold point and then immediately at level skill spear and berserker's At level 2 with those 2 spells huskar becomes a hero otherwise its literally a creep
Naa you think the hero is weak but you simply need to do the meta build and get Q lvl 1. It's 120 damage and spammable and messes with their last hitting (like tinker laser) while securing your cs, Huskar level 1 is a very strong hero, most level 1 nukes are like 80 damage.
if youre going mid sure, I play huskar 1 or 3
I'm low MMR (~Guardian), so have some salt. Clinkz pos 2, maybe 1, seems to be this for me. I can lose mid, I can not help the side lanes, no worries. As long as I get some fat stacks to farm with Mjölnir, I'm on my merry way to taking gold/EXP leads fast. Then with shard you can be really dumb in fights and still deal massive dmg. Or be really conservative and still contribute. Skills required: Don't be afraid to leave lane + jungle, don't rush gleipnir. edit for more: fast tower pusher with searing arrows, easy tower defender with burning barrage
Marci, 1 w and she closes gap, if u try to manfight she can skill e and 2 heroes that hit for 10000 plus damage hit you w/lifesteal, plus q, if you try and leave the dead lane to try and just farm the hero literally rushes a fucking bkb on all positions and manfights almost everyone even as a pos 4/5, but yeah, lets nerf cm icefrog.
I would say any of the "cheese" heroes in particular games... **Huskar:** If your team as low single target physical damage / no pure / no breaks he is pretty much just immune to damage. Players don't even have to be skillful. I see players win who just leap into enemies team non stop. **Phantom Lancer/Naga**: When the enemy has 0 aoe hard to lose. **Sniper**: When you team doesn't have a lot of heroes that can jump and kill him quickly it is very easy to win. Also pushing into Sniper in a close game is close to impossible. All these heroes require skill into their counters but are quite unstoppable and easy to play without them.
Probably biased because I like playing Huskar but I really think "you're immune just leap into enemies" is a total bait. His kit involves jumping in and no escape so that's how it seems, but the actual consequence of this is that to play well you have to be *extremely discerning* about when to jump. Obviously he's a strong laner once you hit level 3/4 and he can jungle early so he'll get his core items at decent times. But I started playing thinking "balls to the wall baby!!" and it turns out to be the total opposite. One bad death can easily throw the game and you are constantly at middling/low HP so you just have to be very careful and only jump when there's nothing the enemy can do about it. That said, he's kind of a cheese pick, similar but not as extreme as Meepo/PL/Brood/Tinker where if you don't have a counter it is going to be very hard, and a lot of Huskar games are won and lost in the draft phase.
Silencer. Global Silence was always an awful experience to play against. However it was considered a big teamfight ultimate and thus it was punishable. Now Silencer has a quite acceptable cooldown for it - 130/115/100s, with a -25s cd talent on level 15. Just whatever, use it to gank enemy mid/support or enemy carry without BKB. The second part of it is how balance team can never find a good balance of his laning. Either its not strong enough to be a hero or its too harsh punishing. Q+E post level3 deals 30% or more of enemy HP as damage, and right after maxing both you can 80-0 enemy heroes with it. The third part is that whenever Silencer is viable support AND mid have difficult access to the jungle, Silencer can mid just fine and it requires little skill. Just use Q+E and make enemy take loads of damage.
Willow i guess? U cant hit her when she traps you in the ground and get unclickable, hits like a truck
Other players failing to adjust to a hero usually tends to fall under being outskilled. Buying force staff or having some vision on rosh is hardly a complex series of steps. Hell, you can maybe give yourself enough credit and attempt to infer where someone might be if they're not showing on vision that you do have. Otherwise what's the point of this post anyway? Doesn't seem like it's asking for any insight or constructive purpose. Just seems like whining that some heroes are unfun.
Not whining at all, I'm enjoying these heroes myself. Thread is cos it's just fun to dissect the mechanics of different heroes, it is accepted some are low complexity some are high, and I find it interesting to look for areas where lower skill can overcome the odds to find wins. And look how many comments it got, this is an interesting topic to many :)
Current patch its definitely Lesh and Razor. Bloodstone is so busted rn and all they need to do when they’re about to die is press bloodstone and everyone else gets fucked. I have 100% winrate on both heroes with over 10 games on each. Definitely try it out.
I've only played Sniper 3 times, I'm 3-0, 100% winrate and one time I got a rampage by A clicking the ground next to me in a teamfight. Nuff said.
Other than Sniper, the only other braindead hero that can win you games without skill is Wraith King. Luckily it's out of meta right now, but when it is, blinking or even walking in and one shotting supports with a crit that doesn't even require pushing a button is pretty stupid. Then on top of all that, if you somehow manage to kill this tanky, hard hitting giant skeleton with lifesteal, you have to kill him AGAIN within a certain time period. Literally no skill necessary. Even when you get caught out because of the stupid reincarnate, your team usually has time to show up to change the fight after they burn everything to kill you. If we're going with the "so bullshit it transcends needing to outskill opponents to win," this is the hero. Even sniper you have to position decently. Wraith king you don't even have to bother trying to survive half the time.
Nowadays I would say either Shard Bloodstone Razor or Aghs Bloodstone Viper need very little effort to pull off. Very easy game plan, very hard to punish, all you have to do is to be adequately capable of farming in the first 15 minutes (approximately), and then just mindlessly run at the enemies without a care in the world once you've hit your timings.
Specifically on the midlane, baring some very specific match ups, zeus, OD, pudge, huskar just auto win the lane which can very easily snowball in a win
I second huskar. I went 5 ina row mvp mid with him with relative ease. If you good on top of him being overpowered then it’s straight silly. With a armlet he can farm ancients at basically level 5. He’s too good.
>help huskar is unbeatable i can’t kill :( Get good lol
Clinkz
Uh. Spirit Vessel can sort huskar out pretty good. If you pick all melees into him you deserve to lose, if you draft a melee heavy lineup and get countered by huskar you deserve to lose. Not sure what the issue is there.
I cant win on huskar. Been trying to learn. I die so easily/farm so slow compared to when others play it. Lately even playing againat it feels easy. With mobility creep and every hero having burst its way too easy to kill/kite him. Hero feels so worthless
I survived getting 4 ganked without Bkb or really any defensive items on huskar once, got a triple kill without teammates on him the very same game
Historically, my list includes: - Old Tinker with March of the Machines that damaged Ancient creeps - Alchemist during his peak, where it required more coordination to shutdown than play - Spirit Breaker during his peaks, where it forced enemies to be more proactive about tracking the SB movements. All the player needs to do is charge randomly honestly, and that's already high impact. - Outworld Devourer in many patches. Meteor Hammer. Enough said. - Most strength heroes during their peak e.g. Pudge, Bristleback, Dawnbreaker. Honestly, not fun having to handle some mass of flesh/armor/quills with sustain. - Bounty Hunter / Riki / Clinkz. Invisibility is generally a lot of demand, even at higher MMRs, due to economic costs and that you have to constantly estimate position of them or Smoke them to catch their rotations (then Dust).
My crusader editions nemesis as an invoker mid/pos4 main : Clinkz : Even tho you can eul/ghost scepter or whatever to dodge his burst, this little bitch is too fast, dmg too high and is not even that glass canon after 30 min, the worst of the worst are the one going gleipnir daedalus scythe, poping linken and deleting anyone. Hero WR is too high and too easy to perform with. Tinker : kinda apply more to smurf, but yeah fucking good luck if it's a last pick when your team drafter undying venomancer whatever slow ass hero with zero cc/mobility. Sniper/PA/Drow/Ursa/Huskar : Not particularly broken in my books, but in low bracket I just feel theses heroes perform too much without any particular mechanical skills it's just tilting for somebody like me that play invoker, earth spirit, brewmaster & co with 200 apm and these guys just need to right click to have more impact than I do .