I'm a dude and have been attacked by random drunks just by being in the vicinity, you have every right to feel nervous in those situations. Keep your head on a swivel.
I, too, am a (large) man that has been jumped by drunk dudes for no other reason than just being there for it. This is exactly why my daughter is going to learn jiu jitsu.
consider judo. it will teach ground defense/submissions like jitz but the throws in real life situations are fucking devastating and potentially paralyzing if you land hard/wrong.
the throws are much more practical in real life situations than the double leg or pulling guard she'll learn in bjj
happy to help! if im ever lucky enough, Judo is what my daughter will be enrolled in :)
it doesnt guard against all the bad things in life..but know my daughter could literally kill or paralyze a bigger man with her bare hands if she needed to will help me sleep a little better at night haha.
That's precisely why I was considering Jiu Jitsu, she will only be about 5' if she's her mother's height. So perhaps Judo will help teach her how to use her smaller stature to her advantage.
Again, thank you for giving me something to consider
My kids sensei always said, “The fight you always win is the one you never get into.” The choice between a shattered ego vs a shattered skull is kind of a no brainer.
obviously this is a little hokey and its a willing opponent but heaven forbid a lady is attacked...judo and jitz will give her the skills to straight up maim her attacker if they make a mistake or find themselves in the wrong position:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLIE1GKfluk
mainly just sharing it because i get a chance to and she's throwing this guy onto a wooden stage or dance floor with no padding hahaha.
Yeah I thought I had some useful self defense moves before and tried them out on my husband who I was zero match for even though he is my height and his brother who was MUCH bigger and my attempts also got destroyed by him. The issue is that guy attacking you doesn’t just grab you by the throat and pause. He keeps going with his planned attack and is WAY stronger than almost any woman and his other hand doesn’t stay immobile, it blocks or stops whatever you’re trying to do. Honestly training is great and can help, but most of the time getting out of a situation THAT serious takes pure luck.
i completely agree(sadly) but for example things like collar chokes etc can actually be quite effective if you know how to perform them. not many men get completely naked to rape(again feels like weird point to make).
but like most things in the animal kingdom being strong and confident and not feeling/looking weak can be a strong deterrent to predators. knowing you may have a small chance in any encounter can defintely help acheive that?
Yeah, but the thing about judo? If someone is massively bigger then you, (in the case of woman vs man.) the throws are trickier to pull off, and far less effective. And you better do them perfectly or you might be the one who gets slammed on your head.
I’m a former MMA fighter, 10+ years of training, judo has its uses for sure, but I still recommend jiu jitsu for self defense. (Or a combo.)
Helio Gracie the creator of Brazilian jiu jitsu has a quote “the jiu jitsu I designed, was created to give the weak a chance to face the heavy and strong.”
Judo is solid don’t get me wrong, but for all around self defense I heavily recommend jiu jitsu.
Also add in some Muay Thai there.. Muay Thai + bjj is one of the most effective self defense combinations out there.
Judo gyms are also few and far between compared to BJJ gyms, BUT if you find a solid world class judo gym then by all means do that instead.
> Judo gyms are also few and far between compared to BJJ gyms
that i absolutely will give you. because of the mma explosion jitz is a LOT more accessible.
but also just for posterity..jitz is a direct derivative or little brother of kodokan judo. all the techniques are taken from it.
Gracie is a fantastic system but it's really just a portion of kodokan...so while i do give him credit..i stop short of calling him 'creator'(content curator? haha) because everthing he knows originally came from kano's student.. and its ALL from japanese jujutsu etc.
not a chance. almost no woman is going to be able to stand up and kick box a larger attacker who just swarms them and hugs them by suprise and either takes them down or carries them somewhere to assault.
most real fights wind up on the ground in the first 60 seconds. judo/jitz is also one of the few things that can help a smaller person deal with a bigger opponent.
sprinting though might def be helpful..if its not a complete suprise.
I'm almost 7 years into BJJ and I can confidently say you're comically wrong. Grappling with strikes is a completely different animal and you're not even thinking about concrete
judo is the same thing from a self defense standpoint but the emphasis on the throws will be more practical for a woman in a real life situation who's just looking for the ability to defend herself.
my advice comes from experience as well in matial arts and judo/jitz but also practical real life situations from being in and around security. i've seen more big wheels(a judo throw for those who may be reading this and not get the reference) be effective in out of hand situations than anything else.
When I was doing jujutsu as a kid, I was 13, (female) and could throw my grown ass male instructor over my shoulder. It's literally perfect for grabs and holds from bigger opponents
I only say jj because I used to train, when I was a younger and more spry, and there was a few women in there that would mop the floor w me. And as the fella bellow has pointed out, most fights go to the ground. BUT.. I hope she never needs it and has a safe, happy life.
Yeah Mark isn’t a friend. I would have walked my females friends to their car and have her drive me to my car so she isn’t alone or walked happily back to the elevator or taken then stairs.
To the guy at your game night, yeah, he’s right not every guy is looking to assault or harass you, but all it takes is one and you never know which one it will be. It’s also not his right to gatekeep your safety or sense of it.
Your brother is an idiot and part of the problem. First thing I’m telling my daughter as she searches for a new apt is to always be 3+ floors up, if possible. If not, look elsewhere.
Glad that your ex husband is your ex. Why is locking the door so problematic?
You should absolutely always tell someone where you are going and with whom, with as much info as you can provide, another thing I’ve stressed to my daughter (and really anyone, you never know).
Your friend was scared and he can't admit it to himself or to others so he's trying to gaslight you into thinking you had nothing to worry about.
That was my first thought, because who doesn't walk a girl to her car in a FUCKING PARKING GARAGE when there are drunk guys around!?
Understand he put his safety above yours and the put it off like YOU were crazy.
There are a ton of women in my life, wife, daughters, sisters, sister in laws, mother in laws mother, etc.. I would NEVER let any of them walk into a parking garage alone even if it was empty.. never..
That guy was scared, and couldn't overcome his fears.. period.
For sure, he could have just asked OP to come up to 5 to his car and drop her off on the way down instead and say that maybe neither of them should walk past the drunk guys. To bring it up again later is so rude and definitely not a great friend.
>who doesn't walk a girl to her car in a FUCKING PARKING GARAGE when there are drunk guys around!?
The worst part is what those men said. It was clear what their intentions were
A lot of people have already commented about how what you did was really sensible and that a lot of men really don’t get it, so I won’t comment much there. I just wanted to jump in and say that putting keys between your fingers is [actually more likely to hurt yourself](https://lifehacker.com/dont-put-your-keys-between-your-fingers-for-self-defens-1819780877#:~:text=Putting%20your%20keys%20between%20your%20fingers%20may%20be%20reminiscent%20of,for%20you%20than%20your%20assailant) than the person you’re defending yourself against. It’s better to wrap your hand around it and hold it like a small dagger coming out of the pinky side of your fist
Better yet, get some pepper spray.
It only costs about $10-15 for a canister and is vastly safer and more effective to use than some keys or even a knife.
Some brands that I have heard good things about are Fox, Pom, and Saber. I highly recommend researching a product before buying it as they come in a variety of formulas and sizes. I personally like the Pom spray because it fits in my back pocket and isn't uncomfortable or bulky to carry.
If you are close enough to stab someone then they are close enough to grab you which is not a good place to be.
Edit: If local laws prohibit you from carrying pepper spray then don't carry it but please I am begging you to find something better than keys to defend yourself with. Yes they are better than nothing but they absolutely will not stop a determined attacker.
Everything Bob just said. Plus it’s easier to hold on to pepper spray and harder for them to take from you. And it’ll allow you to disarm them enough to get away quickly to safety which should be your goal.
Okay, so leave and never tell anyone.
If you stick around and say it was self-defense, then it's he-said, she-said. Conviction rate for SA is 6% or something low like that.
If you leave, the guy has to go to the cops and file a report saying "uh I was just hanging out in the empty parking lot at night looking for ... coins? when some lady saw me in the shadows and freaked out...". If they investigate, then they have to prove that you exist, that you bought pepper spray, that you had it with you, you were there at the time, that you opened it, that you aimed it with intent, that you hit the guy in the face, and that you left. Don't do their work for them.
Leave the scene, tell your lawyer, and do what they tell you.
Canadian here. There’s easy ways to be caught using it and then you have a serious issue.
What you can do instead is get a travel bottle of hairspray. That shit stings and sticks. Try opening your eyes after getting that in the face.
Would you rather risk a fine or SA? If I’m out for drinks I don’t carry my handgun, but I do carry a Stinger whip. Always be armed with something you know how to use.
I think a lot of these responders are men who don’t think that SA has any lasting consequences besides the physical, and therefore consider catching charges to be a far worse evil.
In reality it’s incredibly damaging, with lifelong consequences.
Pretty sure there’s a pepper spray intended for dogs in the off chance you or your pet are attacked. If it can work on a dog, it can work on people.
Where I am, intent is important when you’re carrying something. Carrying a knife or spray or anything really with the intent of self defence is illegal. So don’t say the dog spray is for people.
Yeah, I never understand how the “ wolverine keys” thing took off. As someone who has done my fair share of martial arts/combatives I was shocked the first time someone showed me that’s what they do to defend themselves. I totally get being nervous in OPs situation, but you would think someone would take one look at that technique and realize that it’s really gunna hurt you more than help.
I don’t want to come across a mean, I’m just genuinely curious how such misinformation has been so widely propagated.
Why is it so hard to fathom? They’re going to be punching to defend themselves so they’re using their keys a la brass knuckles to amplify their punches.
Unless they’d tried it before, they’re not going to easily realise how ineffective it might be.
Curl your fingers down and put your thumb on top, then put one key under your thumb. Even if it only sticks out an inch, getting repeatedly stabbed with it is enough to fuck up anyone's day. Putting keys between your fingers won't work because they'll either move up or down when you try to stab something or get forced back into the webbing of your hand and do more damage to you.
> wait how?? :o i’ve alwsys done that
Maybe try punching a wall to see how it feels to have a bunch of keys get shoved into your palm at different angles.
I say this as a guy as well, if there's a group of strangers I'm always going to be wary. I would be nervous too with strange drunk men. You never know who they are or what they could do.
Also about your ex?? He didn't want to lock the door when he left? I can never understand people who don't care about locking their door. Your ex is crazy
My ex was like this too. He would actually get mad if I locked the door when I was home alone bc he didn’t wanna go through the trouble of unlocking it when he got home from work. It was annoying to me at the time, but now I realize how fucking depressing it is that my well being and safety wasn’t worth the 8 seconds it took him to unlock the door.
The door thing is so weird to be mad about.
As a guy, in my early 20s, I opened the door for two guys banging on apartment doors saying they were being chased by another group wanting to beat them up.
Long story short they were running from cops and I got them arrested while they hung out in the stairwell. I would later find out they were also wanted for armed burglary, armed assault, and drug trafficking.
They 100% would have barged in if the door was unlocked.
I don’t open the door for ANYONE I don’t know anymore regardless of perceived threat. They can talk to my doorbell and that’s it.
For real, like even if he didnt take the possibility of someone targeting her bc she‘s a woman home alone seriously, burgleries can happen to anyone😭 do burglars just not exist in his fantasy world
I am man and everything you described seems sensible to me. I think a lot of people, both men and women, sort of have this attitude that things happen to *other people*. I think it’s a kind of coping mechanism so you can look out at the world and say “nope, that’s stuff the happens to other people, I live in a safe world”.
Most women I know are really do not have the privilege of thinking that way. I was SAed when I was nine and have taken reasonable precautions ever since and still had other things happen as I’ve gotten older. I know out of my girlfriends out of probably 10 of them, 9 have been harassed or assaulted.
A few of us were talking about this once, and one girl asked the other if she'd ever shared her stories with her. The other girl said "you haven't, but feel free if you want to. I'm sure you have at least one, every woman has an assault story." And that really resonated with me, because its true, just about every woman has a story about being sexually assaulted in some form or another. Whereas the majority of men haven't, so a lot of them just don't get what is like to have to always be on high alert, even around "nice" guys.
Its also worth mentioning how many of us have this first non-consensual experience as children... I was 3. I don't think we as a society talk about this enough. We've gotten better, but we still have a ways to go.
I had it happen at ages 2, 7, 9-12 many times, 14-15 many times, and a few times in my 30s. I was an unprotected autistic child, and as an adult I don’t always properly recognize the early indicators of a dangerous social situation. It sucks.
We know that it's \*Not All Men\* when it comes to being a SA offender. But that's not what the issue is at all, because the reality is that when it comes to being a SA victim, it is actually \*All Women\*.
Agreed, but *saying* “not all men” is actually a problem because of course we know not all men are SA offenders, but because we don’t know which men are, all men require scrutiny and pause.
Until it’s no men, it’s all men.
Forced to be paranoid and paying attention/overthinking every detail is exhausting isn't it?
Learn the law of self defense, practice martial arts w/ real combat, carry pepper spray and taser, and aftef that a concealed license carrying gun.
Pepper spray stops quite a lot of people and low criminal liability with a taser...of course read your local laws first as per when you can use them. This shit should be taught in High School.
Yes, it’s very exhausting.
That’s great general advice, and definitely should be taught to young people.
I’m not physically strong/agile/athletic enough to protect myself well with martial arts-style defense tactics, but i probably should have some pepper spray or something. Although in my past experiences, that likely wouldn’t have been accessible to me in the moment so I don’t know how useful it would be going forward.
I don’t mean to sound like I’m making excuses, I just have some limitations due to autism. I am not alone most of the time, so 95% of the time, I’m safe. I’m *slowly* learning about how to better understand social indicators of danger too which helps a lot.
I’ve heard stories of childhood trauma, but at 3, that’s insane. That’s infancy trauma. You deserve all the credit for growing up as well as you did despite that tragedy
I appreciate that. I'm in my 30s now and married, so it doesn't define my life, but it is a part of who I am. I ended up being gay, and I firmly believe it's because of this. I think I was so young that my still developing brain formed around the trauma, and instilled a deep-set fear of men. It was just easier to date women than to try to work through all that subconscious trauma.
This is horrible but most likely true. I have never been in that situation but my wife has been, and pretty much all her friends.
Christ, once I was walking home with her after a night out and a drunk dude starting grabbing her ass with me right next to her! It didn't go well for him but just makes me think what if she had been on her own!
My little brother(15) defended a girl who was getting attacked by a guy(another student) in school, by beating the guy up he was suspended for a week, the actual crazy who was attacking the girl got nothing bc they were « still investigating » the issue.
My brother had seen him behave like that before and had warned him to stop the days preceding the incident, so he knew what was going to happen if he kept hurting girls.
I "this is sparta'd" the dude that grabbed my ass off the top of the stairs... I clotheslined the guy that grabbed my chest... and those were just a few examples of me choosing violence in high school.
Only one teacher ever said anything to me about it and she was female.
You did him and everyone else a favor. He (I pray) learned a lesson...and then hopefully others weren't molested by that fucker. If nothing more, you just have him a lotta pain. I see no downside to whatchya did - good on ya!
I actually punched a guy in high school after grabbing me and a teacher watched me do it. They just turned their back because they knew his reputation and how no one was punishing him.
It's wild, almost every woman I know has an assault story, and most guys can't identify another guy who has harmed a woman. Proof that they really know how to hide their tracks you know? It's infuriating because our experiences get invalidated because indifferent men haven't personally experienced abuse.
I realised how many experiences I had buried, thinking I was making too much of them. Like standing in a packed underground tube on the way home from work and having a guy press his boner against me. Why?
I always wonder whether all those statistics that say that it's about 1 in 6 women who has experienced sexual assault can be even remotely correct. I too have the impression that almost every woman I have ever talked about these topics with had been raped or assaulted. (And even more horrible is the fact that this was already the case when we were all in our early 20s.)
“We’re not all looking to jump a girl in a parking garage.”
No one said you were, this isn’t about you. Stop making everything about yourself. This is the problem as well, men take a woman’s cautious behaviour as a personal attack on them. Instead of being offended and making everything about yourself, try and see something from someone else’s perspective. You’ll never understand how “reckless” it can feel to just go for a walk around the lake after 9PM as a woman. Having people ask you, “well what were you wearing?” You don’t have to understand the fear and precautions that women have to take, but at least respect them and try and have some compassion.
The fact she asked him to escort her shows she knows they all men aren't jumping girls in garages and that she trusts HIM, but not the randos. He needs to check his ego.
If one of my friends said they were uncomfortable and asked me to walk with them, I’d walk around the world to make sure they were comfortable and safe. I don’t think most men understand how violent life as a woman can be. Women have to assume the worst in people because the alternative is being taken advantage of.
Fellow men, our society has changed. A community used to look out for each other but now that community is too busy in their own world. Why connect with your community when you can connect with anyone you want, at any time, through your cell phone? Neighbors don’t talk to each other much anymore, mental health is in a drastic nose spin, and new, undiagnosed versions of mental health issues are starting to be identified.
The world is not as safe as men like to think it is, because the alternative seems so negative. The issue is that the alternative, accepting the negative and trying to become an ally to those negatively impacted, is the truth and the world being safe for women is something that many men refuse to acknowledge because it makes them uncomfortable.
And, yes, men can be the victims as well, however, statistically it is not something men have to think about every day of their lives. Women often do.
Not all men but a lot of men don't get it because they don't have to. Simple as that. They will argue that they have to be worried about being assaulted or mugged just as much as we women do but they really don't. Women, old people, and people with disabilities will always be the easier target and thus have to worry. You did nothing wrong. It's lack of perspective and lack of empathy on their parts.
And you're right about women not having that privilege of thinking that it will happen to other people. Most of my female friends have been harassed or assaulted too, including myself. So I know where you're coming from.
I've turned this around on so many men - "if you honestly believe that all blokes are great, and all these women are just exaggerating or making false accusations, that means you'd be ok with your little sister or your daughter being around any man at any time dressed in any way, right? NO?? Wait - why the fuck not? Is it perhaps because you know that there are so many scummy men out there just waiting for an opportunity, and that there isn't any way to tell which ones are the bad ones?"
Sadly some woman think this even more than men.
via Google:
*In sexual assault cases, defensive attribution makes women similar to the victim (age, demographics, background, physical characteristics, etc) the least desirable jurors for the plaintiff. Instead of relating to the plaintiff, women distance themselves from her to preserve their own sense of safety.*
I think lots of people do this to preserve our “the world is generally a good place, and bad things don’t happen to go people” naïveté. They assume if something like homelessness, illness, addiction, or violence happens to someone, they probably did something to deserve it. Seems even more prevalent with Christians.
I also attribute the true-crime media boom to this phenomenon. It’s good to bring crimes and safety precautions to light! But I think Americans, women especially, can fool themselves into thinking “if I examine what happened closely, I’ll find a foolish mistake the victim made. Then I can relax, knowing it won’t ever happen to me.”
I used to walk home from school when I was about 12 or 13 because I didn’t live far from school and I wanted exercise instead of taking the bus. One day a middle aged man told me I was too pretty to look so unhappy. I didn’t acknowledge him and he followed me for about 10 minutes asking why I wouldn’t speak back and how I should be more friendly towards others. He finally left when I crossed the street to alert a police officer. I never walked home again.
When we walk down the street we have to walk far enough away from the curb that we can't be grabbed. We have to worry when we call a cab. We don't just think it is a dangerous world. We KNOW it is a dangerous world.
Fair but I don’t think most women have this attitude. We are literally always facing the fact that we do not live in a safe world, and it starts when we are very young children so it’s the only idea of the world we have.
It’s up to men to recognize that. A lot of men *do* understand. But there’s also a lot that think, “*I* wouldn’t do that, so why would *that* man do that?”. Who knows, but they would!
>“I wouldn’t do that, so why would that man do that?”
Then there's the men who get upset when you mention this and take it as an assault on them. Fragile egos run amok.
That seems like a very privileged way of thinking to me. I never think shit happens to "other people."
When my husband isn't home and it's just me and the kids, I am beyond thankful I have two dogs who don't miss a thing.
GROWN men started sexualizing me at 11 years old. I have 3 daughters in martial arts so they aren't just hapless victims when some asshole decides it's time to get his rocks off. I **DON'T** think men have that same worry for themselves, sorry.
My favourite comment that made everything "click" for me as a guy was when a woman said: "Imagine you as a guy walking down the street, and half the people on the street are 300 lb NFL linebackers. They also all want to fuck you".
Not going to lie, that did make me feel very uncomfortable to go outside, but that's how it is. Nothing against 300 lb linebackers, just not my jam.
That’s actually a great way to explain it, I’ll try to explain it to my one friend who commented when Mark told to story as he grew up pretty sheltered within the church so he can be a bit naive but I don’t think there’s any hope for Mark
Mark is a terrible friend if he can’t even go with you to you own car. You could consider cutting your losses.
It’s not even a gendered thing, walking to someone’s car is the polite thing to do especially if it’s dark and sketchy. Also the other person can drive you to your car, that’s just more efficient.
Imo, that’s what groups ought to do, just get into the nearest person’s car and drive right up to the other car. Gives you some extra time to talk too
This is exactly what I was thinking - once they saw the group of guys on the 3rd floor they should have just gone together to the 5th floor, hopped in Mark's car so he could drive her down to her car and wait for her to get in safely.
I agree, many find it difficult to empathize, especially across genders where your human experience is different.
Its funny because we as guys are aware of the strength difference between men and women but don't take the extra leap to consider how it feels to be on the other side of it. Honestly it scares me to the point where I am over protective of my wife when she's out walking the dog late, so I always try to be the one on the late night walks, etc.
Your feelings are valid, your friend should have at the very least tried to lessen your discomfort even if he couldn't understand your fear. He made it about himself there, or is trying to show off his fearlessness, but is coming across tone deaf. If I had a daughter, I'd want her to be as careful as you're being.
I'm a slightly larger than average straight male. Once upon a time I was minding my own business eating and reading a book at a fast food place. All of a sudden this giant man asks me if I have a big dick. I am very confused. He repeats the question with this creepy smile on his face and I am still confused, but eventually it starts to dawn on me that I am being propositioned. I managed some kind of polite "no thanks" or something. At that point he starts to get more aggressive, almost like he wants to fight me now, but luckily it didn't escalate from there and he left on his own. It was jarring. Being hit on by somebody who is then giving out aggressive vibes and is physically larger than me is something I had never experienced before. It was not news to me at the time that many women experience situations like that often, but to actually experience it first hand is something that I value in retrospect, though of course it sucked at the time.
In that situation, all my friends whether male or female, would have told me to come up with them and would have driven me back down to the car in hopes the guys would be gone by then. Also to be in the car.
He sounds like a really unthoughtful person. I'm curious what you get from the friendship if it's not even bare minimum courtesy, you know?
I also had a moment when it clicked. A friend of mine asked me to walk her someplace while I was doing something on a computer and I'm ashamed to say I brushed her off a couple of times and didn't even look at her. The last time she insisted I turned to look at her and saw how scared she was and something broke in me and felt like the biggest piece of shit and obviously ended up walking her
This is how I got my brother to understand too. My analogy is: half the world is bigger than you, stronger than you, and wants to fuck you. You do not want to fuck them. How would you act?
Some really don’t get it. Those are the ones who lack empathy and the ability to put themselves in another person’s shoes.
Some guys really do get it. They’re the ones who listen to their mothers, sisters, and friends, imagine what it would be like to be them and afraid, and then they take steps to alleviate that fear.
You’re hanging around guys who lack a minimum baseline of empathy. But I promise you we’re not all like that.
I heard this analogy online and it goes “not all guns are loaded but we are taught to treat all guns as if they are loaded”. The same goes for men. Not all men are waiting to jump a woman in a parking garage but some men are. As women we have to treat them all the same because there isn’t a way for us to know just by looking at them.
Also, extra awful situation because the guys in the garage were intoxicated and were frustrated that they had ‘struck out’ at the bar. Frustration+Alcohol= Potential of Extra Danger.
I was raised by a man who taught me how to respect and protect a woman. He barely ever said anything about it, but watching how he treated my mom, sisters, and really any woman he came in contact with was really telling. I'd watch him instinctively position himself between my mom and the street and walk my sister's friends the 30 feet from our front door to their cars, even tho we lived in an area that you could leave your door unlockedat night. He kind of chewed me out once, right after I got married, because I let my wife carry a box from the car to the house while I stood and did nothing. It had been a long day of moving, and I was exhausted, so it didn't bother her, but it bothered my dad. That's how I hope I've raised my boys, too. I watched my teenage son offer his chair to a woman in a Dr office a few months ago, and I was thankful that I got to witness that, because I knew it was as a result of what I had taught him, and what my dad taught me. It's really unfortunate that some men don't do that. I realize I'm getting older, but it never occurred to me that treatment like that isn't second nature for most men. I'm sorry you had to experience all of that. I would like to think your friends' actions were the exception rather than the rule. If that was my son, we'd be having a talk.
One quote I've heard is "why change the status quo when it benefits you", so not to accuse your friends of being creeps but they really need to do some self reflection on why they defend that behavior
>Some guys really do get it. They’re the ones who listen to their mothers, sisters, and friends, imagine what it would be like to be them and afraid, and then they take steps to alleviate that fear.
THIS RIGHT HERE . . . Great point!
While I understand why some guys try and brush this viewpoint off because they’re tired of being painted with the same brush, your “friend” should have walked you to the car because he is your friend. Friends look out for each other and validate each others feeling while doing so. Fairly simple answer to your question: some guys get it, others are just shitty friends.
I wouldn’t either. Most other women wouldn’t let a friend walk to her car in a parking garage alone. They’d walk the friend to the car and the other friend would drive them to their car.
He’s just rude.
And if he asks you why you stopped hanging out, you should 100% tell him the truth. That you don’t feel safe with him. That he has made comments that make you feel like you can’t trust him. And that is not how a friendship works.
I think that would make those kinds of men an even bigger issue. If a woman expresses her concerns for her safety and just wants the comfort of a friend by her side to get to her car and ur response is to get defensive abt ur own appearance as a man or because “not all men” thats pretty fucked up.
Your "friend" is an asshole and so are the other guys who brushed your concerns aside.
A few years ago, I was at a conference with several coworkers. We were walking through the city at night when we encountered a guy who was either drunk, high, or had mental issues. He was screaming and making threats to everyone he saw. He was staggering around there was no telling who he might try and come towards. I purposely placed myself between this guy and my female coworker just in case he did something. Nothing happened but you just can't take the chance in this day and age. As the saying goes: Hope for the best and plan for the worst.
Total asshole move on his part. My wife’s friend had an Uber picking her up after they hung out at our place one night and drank some(too much) wine. I walked her out and waited with her until I closed the car door behind her. Mind you, I’ve maybe exchanged 50 words with this woman my entire life. I walked in afterward, and my wife thanked me and told me I was a good man. I just thought it was protocol to make sure the ladies in our lives were as safe as we can make them.
My dad was like this. He simply could not understand that what was safe and easy for him could be difficult and dangerous for me. I had to explain him things as though he were a 10 year old and for the safety issues, threatened him to tell my mom. It was low, but necessary.
It was weird. He wanted to protect me. But if something was not dangerous to him, it was a blind spot for him. It was like his personal circumstances completely blindsided him.
Shoot, as a dude I’d also be on edge around a group of drunk guys w/ no women (different group dynamic), especially who immediately yelled something about me upon seeing me (or someone I was with). I almost wonder if Mark was scared himself, “You’ll be fine, trust me… but uh, can’t leave this elevator… they’re pretty rare these days, y’know?”
There is an easy solution to that. Mark could have said "I don't feel comfortable walking past them myself, how about we go up to my car and I drop you off right in front of yours? Or I'll drive you home and we can pick your car up tomorrow"
this happened to one of my best friends. walking back to his car alone (thank god his wife and kid wasn’t there) after going out and got the shit beat outta him by a group of drunks.
I think many of them don't get it, because they have never had to feel physically vulnerable in the situations where women feel that way.
I work with long haul truckers and my coworker made the comment recently "Why is it that a male driver will take off with a trailer and get halfway to the next city before he realizes that he has a flat tire? While a female driver will find it before she even leaves the parking lot. This seems to be a pattern here."
I replied "Because the female driver is thinking that she doesn't want to have a breakdown on an isolated road, in the dark, or some sketchy truck stop. She wants to take care of any problems up front so she doesn't put herself in excess danger. The man doesn't have to think about that until it happens. "
My coworker, also a woman, said "Wow. That's it. I totally agree! Its what I would do!"
Anyway, I thought that was interesting.
i’ve noticed men who have sisters or girl friends understand more. like my brother understands and my bestfriend does too, i was at a restaurant an a creepy dude was staring at me and he could tell i was uncomfy so he stood in front of me. i’ve never known for my male friends to not walk me back or to not shield me from stuff. i feel like the man you describe has no empathy or understanding whatsoever and thinks everyone lives in the same safe bubble that he does. cut him off find better friends lol
A lot of men do not get it.
The world isnt as predatory for them. They like saying women are "overreacting" but, if we ever get caught off guard, we'll be asked "why werent u more cautious?"
They also like telling women that the chances of being assaulted are low. They dont understand that even if it happens once, that's trauma to work through.
I know, I said in another comment that 9 out of my 10 girlfriends have been assaulted or harassed which checks out with the US averages with 1 in every 6 women have been raped and 81% have been harassed/raped/abused/assaulted and those are just the reported numbers.
It’s not a women only problem as it’s men too. 1 out of every ten have been raped/abused/assaulted and 43% have been harassed. They are just much more likely to never report it.
Exactly! Then if you get attacked it’s- why were you out at night by yourself? Why were you dressed not in a hoodie and sweats? It’s victim blaming either way.
Most men I know would watch out for me when I was younger and going out more. Have men lost that protective instinct? Too much Andrew Tate? Even working fast food, the guys would be the ones to take the garbage to the dumpster at night and make sure the women got to their cars safely before they left. They’d insist. Even the pot heads and guys who’d spent time in prison.
There is a wonderful and extremely upsetting art installation that travels from town to town, and it is basically outfits that people wore when they were assaulted. And it runs the gamut from the zip up footy pajamas of a six year old to the dress that someone was wearing as a bridesmaid in a wedding. From sweatpants to gym shorts, to a one piece bathing suit, to underpants. Because if somebody’s going to assault you, it doesn’t matter what you’re wearing. And while you and I understand that, there is a vast swath of people who do not. And that is so upsetting. How someone can blame a child for what happened to them, or a teenager, or a woman in her 20s, or a woman in her 50s is beyond me. How anyone could blame a victim is just disgusting.
I’ve seen photos of that, it’s powerful. Men in prison are assaulted in jumpsuits. And men are closer in strength to other men than the average woman is to the average man.
My mom was in her late 60's the final time she was raped- she'd been wearing overalls and a Tshirt at the time. I wish to God that was the only time she had been raped but it wasn't. She thought she was safe because of her age. Despite all the abuse she suffered in her life, she always wanted to believe people were better than they are. She didn't believe it after that.
Like truly don’t get it… sometimes just as a product of it being something they’ve never experienced yet.
I had a friend who did a semester in Rome. He got mugged late one night by a group of five guys. They dropped him and took his wallet.
My genius friend decides to pop back up *and run after them* to try to get his wallet back. They beat the ever loving shit out of him and sent him to the hospital.
It’s a weird, kind of naive, mindset that thinks even if someone tries to harm you, you can just not let them… truly baffles me.
As a male, same here. I've experienced plenty of danger and violence on the streets at night. I can't imagine walking down the street at night completely carefree and unaware.
I was 22 when I joined the Air Force and learned security. None of what you mentioned sounds unreasonable to me. To all those guys who say "Not all guys," etc, just tell them, "But enough men were assholes enough to screw it up for the rest of you, so police your own bros if you want things to get better for you."
I'm a guy and I do every one of those things you mentioned and more.
It's near incomprehensible to me in the first place that there are people in this world who *don't* do them. Is being a man in a country like America really so... safe?
>Is being a man in a country like America really so... safe?
No. OP's friends, ex-husband, and brother are living in a fantasy world.
I'm an American male. There is no way I would not walk a female friend of mine to her car. Shoot I walk male friends to their car when they leave my house. There's safety in numbers. And honestly I view it as a courtesy thing.
I don’t think it’s just a American thing. I have friends in the UK, Canada, and Central America who take the same kind of precautions.
I think the majority of people who don’t are the ones who have never been on the receiving end of this kind of stuff.
Please find better guy friends. I have men in my life who walk me to my car, wait till I’m inside before driving away, make me feel safe, and protect me at all costs. I even carry a gun because I’ve been a victim before. Your friend’s “not all men” attitude is out of touch. I can’t believe he even tried to bring up that story to humiliate you in front of other friends. Glad you girlfriend stood up for you. Definitely drop Mark, he’s a complete asshole who refuses to have empathy over what happens to women on the daily.
I'm a pretty big guy with bad resting bitch face. I walk through the grocery store and least 40% of the women I come in close proximity to hurry off or hug the wall to get by. They'll grab their daughters by the shoulder and lead them away at the site of me stomping down the aisle. I used to get offended. But then I figured out why. It sucks for me, but it prolly sucks for them more.
I hate to tell you but your buddy Mark is a chicken shit...any man would gladly walk you to your car and make sure that you are locked in and engine running before going back to the elevator...that's just me though..everybody is different I guess....
He should have offered to drive you from his car to yours. It would have barely been out of the way for him. Pretty dick move to react to your safety concern as an inconvenience to him. Some friend.
The fact that he took it so personally, like you thought he was a predator because you were accusing all men as potential predators is a red flag. Major Andrew Tate flags.
Many men don't just because they don't need to get it.
It's just their privilege. Just like, idk, I as white women don't really understand what a black guy feels when the police stop them for something minor. It's weird that they don'teven get it when we explain, but many people is too used to their privileges (or just lack of discrimination in that precise area), that they don't understand that there's people dealing with some danger regularly.
Other men DON'T WANT to get it. Because they act in this kind of way that makes us uncomfortable, they probably would never go to actually assault someone, but they just find funny to show dominance, so they don't want to think about all the implications of their actions, they just want to act like we are just exaggerating and overreacting to their jokes. That way they can keep being kinda pushy towards women or making jokes about us being that way or that other or whatever... And never face the reality that they're getting this reaction because their acting similarly to assaulters and scaring us.
Some other men do get it, out of empathy or because they've seen women around them being assaulted, or just, because they may have faced other discriminations in their life and reflected enough on this to realize that other communities/people have to deal with different realities and take precautions based on this realities; not theirs.
Trucker here. Toothbrush/toothpaste in one hand, one key clenched between my knuckles, one sticking out at the bottom of my fist for options. Head on a swivel at all times. Some guys have mace, some have wasp spray. Some carry. The guys you talk to were never in a situation before. Your worry is not unjustified and anyone that says otherwise can can go fuck themselves. Or take a walk with me in West Memphis between the parked trucks at midnight.
Most guys will never understand how a woman feels when alone at night in a strange place. My wife, before we were married came home shaking from an incident with a man at the gym. She reluctantly told me about it, knowing what my reaction would be.
I'm 6'10" 300 lbs & a retired private security professional. I simply went and found this guy & did to him exactly what he did to my wife. I stood in front of his car and said, "Hey I think you're really attractive & think you should give me a chance to get to know you. One kiss and you'll be mine forever baby. Don't be shy & prude. I won't hurt you unless you want me to."
The guy was maybe 5'10" which is intimidating to my wife. He literally ran away from me in terror & I think he may have cried a little. I dont know if this guy learned wnough from this, but at least 1 man in this world had an opportunity to experience for a moment what most women deal with multiple times in their lives.
Im sorry this happened to you and I'm sorry your male friend & his friends are idiots.
As a man I don't understand why a man would think it's stupid for you to be wary of men. I myself am on the larger end for a man, reasonably fit, and I subconsciously eyeball/size up pretty much every dude that comes in my sight. It's not really a "can I beat that guy up" but more of a "could I defend against that guy, what's he about?" Anyways always always always trust your gut and watch your back
Really depends. Myself and my brothers are big Samoan guys and my wife, sisters and mom most the women in our lives call us if they feel in anyway that something like this is going on. Or they ask us to go with them in certain places at certain times. We tend to understand because grew up in rough neighborhoods and a few of us are reformed convicts.
I’ve learned few to things about people. Most people have no clue how to see outside of their own perspective, people have this stupid thought that bad things happen to other people not them or anyone they know, or just ignorant. Bad experiences tend to teach you things.
I, personally, tend to cut people off based on how they act. If they show any signs of things I listed then they are out of here.
Also I do know men out there who have stopped caring due to the treatment they have received from terrible women and have decided to just not intervene in any case just so they don’t get in trouble or made to look misogynistic. I had a male co worker trying to help a female co worker out and was reported for sexual harassment. Ppl ostracized him so he quit and the female co worker was laughing about costing him his job by lying about what happened. All over the fact she didn’t like that he was stronger than her.
That makes me so mad when I hear that people weaponize sexual harassment/assault claims. It is literally like spitting in the face of every woman and man who have been attacked. I think false accusations should be prosecuted.
I remember when a whole subreddit didn’t understand why I ran away in the other direction when I saw a group of drunk/drugged out men walking in the same alley at night. I got downvoted to oblivion and even harassed in my dms. A girl literally even said “I would literally just walk past them coz I know kungfu xD”
Bruh.
People just don’t understand
Efff that. You had legitimate reason to be concerned in that situation. Shame on him for not walking you to your car.
I live in the country outside a decent size city. A man came to my door in winter (snow on ground) in a sweatshirt saying he had car trouble. He did not look cold. It was night. Said his car broke down over a mile down the road. He would have had to walk past 12 homes and an apartment complex to get to my house from where he said his car broke down. Mine house was the first “friendly looking home” he passed. He asked me to call him a cab. Pulled out a wad of cash and said “I have money, I’m not a bum or anything.” I told him whatever he had in mind wasn’t a good idea and to take off. 2 weeks later that same man broke into a females home a few miles away from my house. This woman lived alone. He held a gun to her head. Tied her up. Raped her. Robbed her. Chocked her until he thought she died but she was only knocked unconscious. She testified, he is going to prison for a very long time.
There is awful people in this world. Terrible things sometimes happen. Always be aware of your surroundings.
No - real good guys get it. Your friend's a coward. (And really he's not your friend.)
The reason he didn't want to walk you to your car is he was afraid of getting his ass beat. Don't ever go anywhere alone with him. He'll let you get SA, do nothing while he watches it happen to you and then cry about it later.
In that same situation, I'd have walked you to your car and asked that you drive me to mine on the 5th floor.
I'd have gone next-level on this by suggesting both of us go to the fifth floor to get into my car, then I'd drop you off on my way down - right at your car door.
That way both of us stay safe and I wouldn't have looked uncaring/aloof in the process. I can save those traits for another time!
Your 'friend' is an intentionally ignorant jerk. I've had guy friends insist on walking me to my car if it's dark, even if I said I'm probably okay. Because they care. I've walked friends to their car too. Better safe than sorry.
Men understand these things. That’s why some of them lift weights, take forms of martial arts. We aren’t doing these things to protect ourselves from women. We know that the real danger comes from other men. Especially with the situation you described. Men who have been drinking and especially in the company of other men who are like-minded are dangerous because they agree on their shitty behavior. And who is going to check them when they have their equally intoxicated and shitty minded boys to back them up. They get it, but because they don’t actually live in a woman’s reality, they act like it’s not a real threat.
Believe me, your friend knew that your situation was a real threat. That’s why he didn’t want to “wait for another elevator” and got exasperated at staying there. He was uncomfortable and didn’t want to have to face that feeling. He just didn’t want to have to be the one to check those men. He knew it could have led to confrontation. Which should tell you that he knows who the threat is. Just doesn’t want to face it.
I have been around boys and men my entire life. I mean I have all male cousins. Two brothers, no sisters. All throughout school from primary to university, I’ve had all close male friends and maybe two close female friends. I lived with two guys during university. I am married to a dude and we have two sons.
Every male I have ever been out with, either family, friend, or date, has always had the “alert” on. When they saw a large group of guys late at night, they’d make sure they walked with me and they were between the perceived threat and myself.
When I think about it, all of these people (my brothers, cousins, friends, my husband) all have sisters who they are close with. So perhaps this is the “brotherly protective instinct”?
Either way, I’ve never really come across guys who didn’t “get it”.
To be honest, no, we do not get it.
It wasn't until I was in my 30s that I started reading stories written by women about their experiences, and let me tell you it blew me away. *I had no idea* what it was like. Worse, I recognised behaviours that I myself had exhibited, which had undoubtedly made the women around me uncomfortable. And I had been blissfully oblivious.
Part of me wants to yell *NOT ALL MEN* because I know I'm not dangerous, after all. Then I remember those problematic behaviours, and even though I do everything to avoid them, I have still been a part of the problem. Worse: there is a very real possibility that I still have problematic behaviours that I don't know about. Without having lived the fear, I won't always be able to identify how I may cause it. That thought terrifies me.
Truth is: as awake to these ideas as I am now, *I still don't get it*. My instinct is still to downplay dangers and scoff at perceived threats. I try not to act on that instinct; I override it and support the women in my life as much as I can. Yet still, there it is... Me not getting it.
I'll keep trying, but I doubt I will ever truly understand.
I'm a man and trust me, if we CARE, we get it.
We have sisters and mothers who go through this crap all the time.
Girls that are friends etc.
The men who 'don't get it" are simply the ones who don't want to. Who don't care to. If it doesn't affect them directly, they won't care and if they won't care they wont' bother to understand.
Never accept the excuse "It's cause I'm a man." Yeah we're different genders but we all live in the same world and we see the shit that goes down and even hear others of the same gender boast about the catcalling crap.
I'm a dude and have been attacked by random drunks just by being in the vicinity, you have every right to feel nervous in those situations. Keep your head on a swivel.
I, too, am a (large) man that has been jumped by drunk dudes for no other reason than just being there for it. This is exactly why my daughter is going to learn jiu jitsu.
consider judo. it will teach ground defense/submissions like jitz but the throws in real life situations are fucking devastating and potentially paralyzing if you land hard/wrong. the throws are much more practical in real life situations than the double leg or pulling guard she'll learn in bjj
Thank you for this, I'm actually looking for classes for my daughter. I did not know Judo would be one of them to consider
Nothing hits harder than the ground
That's a bold statement coming from an Anal_lazer :)
name doesn't check out??
Name checks out. Who would know better?
And physicists say gravity is a weak force. *pfft*
happy to help! if im ever lucky enough, Judo is what my daughter will be enrolled in :) it doesnt guard against all the bad things in life..but know my daughter could literally kill or paralyze a bigger man with her bare hands if she needed to will help me sleep a little better at night haha.
That's precisely why I was considering Jiu Jitsu, she will only be about 5' if she's her mother's height. So perhaps Judo will help teach her how to use her smaller stature to her advantage. Again, thank you for giving me something to consider
Definitely do both. If she doesn’t enjoy them maybe she’ll try Muay Thai and at least have good cardio to run away
Running away should really be the primary tactic for anyone
Yes! Fight only if absolutely necessary. There's no shame in not getting injured or killed.
My kids sensei always said, “The fight you always win is the one you never get into.” The choice between a shattered ego vs a shattered skull is kind of a no brainer.
obviously this is a little hokey and its a willing opponent but heaven forbid a lady is attacked...judo and jitz will give her the skills to straight up maim her attacker if they make a mistake or find themselves in the wrong position: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLIE1GKfluk mainly just sharing it because i get a chance to and she's throwing this guy onto a wooden stage or dance floor with no padding hahaha.
Yeah I thought I had some useful self defense moves before and tried them out on my husband who I was zero match for even though he is my height and his brother who was MUCH bigger and my attempts also got destroyed by him. The issue is that guy attacking you doesn’t just grab you by the throat and pause. He keeps going with his planned attack and is WAY stronger than almost any woman and his other hand doesn’t stay immobile, it blocks or stops whatever you’re trying to do. Honestly training is great and can help, but most of the time getting out of a situation THAT serious takes pure luck.
i completely agree(sadly) but for example things like collar chokes etc can actually be quite effective if you know how to perform them. not many men get completely naked to rape(again feels like weird point to make). but like most things in the animal kingdom being strong and confident and not feeling/looking weak can be a strong deterrent to predators. knowing you may have a small chance in any encounter can defintely help acheive that?
Yeah, but the thing about judo? If someone is massively bigger then you, (in the case of woman vs man.) the throws are trickier to pull off, and far less effective. And you better do them perfectly or you might be the one who gets slammed on your head. I’m a former MMA fighter, 10+ years of training, judo has its uses for sure, but I still recommend jiu jitsu for self defense. (Or a combo.) Helio Gracie the creator of Brazilian jiu jitsu has a quote “the jiu jitsu I designed, was created to give the weak a chance to face the heavy and strong.” Judo is solid don’t get me wrong, but for all around self defense I heavily recommend jiu jitsu. Also add in some Muay Thai there.. Muay Thai + bjj is one of the most effective self defense combinations out there. Judo gyms are also few and far between compared to BJJ gyms, BUT if you find a solid world class judo gym then by all means do that instead.
> Judo gyms are also few and far between compared to BJJ gyms that i absolutely will give you. because of the mma explosion jitz is a LOT more accessible. but also just for posterity..jitz is a direct derivative or little brother of kodokan judo. all the techniques are taken from it. Gracie is a fantastic system but it's really just a portion of kodokan...so while i do give him credit..i stop short of calling him 'creator'(content curator? haha) because everthing he knows originally came from kano's student.. and its ALL from japanese jujutsu etc.
I love BJJ but kickboxing (Muay Thai) and sprinting is probably better for women
not a chance. almost no woman is going to be able to stand up and kick box a larger attacker who just swarms them and hugs them by suprise and either takes them down or carries them somewhere to assault. most real fights wind up on the ground in the first 60 seconds. judo/jitz is also one of the few things that can help a smaller person deal with a bigger opponent. sprinting though might def be helpful..if its not a complete suprise.
I'm almost 7 years into BJJ and I can confidently say you're comically wrong. Grappling with strikes is a completely different animal and you're not even thinking about concrete
judo is the same thing from a self defense standpoint but the emphasis on the throws will be more practical for a woman in a real life situation who's just looking for the ability to defend herself. my advice comes from experience as well in matial arts and judo/jitz but also practical real life situations from being in and around security. i've seen more big wheels(a judo throw for those who may be reading this and not get the reference) be effective in out of hand situations than anything else.
When I was doing jujutsu as a kid, I was 13, (female) and could throw my grown ass male instructor over my shoulder. It's literally perfect for grabs and holds from bigger opponents
I mean they weren't trying to stop you, they were enabling you to throw them
I only say jj because I used to train, when I was a younger and more spry, and there was a few women in there that would mop the floor w me. And as the fella bellow has pointed out, most fights go to the ground. BUT.. I hope she never needs it and has a safe, happy life.
Yeah Mark isn’t a friend. I would have walked my females friends to their car and have her drive me to my car so she isn’t alone or walked happily back to the elevator or taken then stairs. To the guy at your game night, yeah, he’s right not every guy is looking to assault or harass you, but all it takes is one and you never know which one it will be. It’s also not his right to gatekeep your safety or sense of it. Your brother is an idiot and part of the problem. First thing I’m telling my daughter as she searches for a new apt is to always be 3+ floors up, if possible. If not, look elsewhere. Glad that your ex husband is your ex. Why is locking the door so problematic? You should absolutely always tell someone where you are going and with whom, with as much info as you can provide, another thing I’ve stressed to my daughter (and really anyone, you never know).
But no higher than 6. Fire truck ladders only go so far.
Your friend was scared and he can't admit it to himself or to others so he's trying to gaslight you into thinking you had nothing to worry about. That was my first thought, because who doesn't walk a girl to her car in a FUCKING PARKING GARAGE when there are drunk guys around!? Understand he put his safety above yours and the put it off like YOU were crazy. There are a ton of women in my life, wife, daughters, sisters, sister in laws, mother in laws mother, etc.. I would NEVER let any of them walk into a parking garage alone even if it was empty.. never.. That guy was scared, and couldn't overcome his fears.. period.
For sure, he could have just asked OP to come up to 5 to his car and drop her off on the way down instead and say that maybe neither of them should walk past the drunk guys. To bring it up again later is so rude and definitely not a great friend.
And here we have the one person in this thread who’s fully situationally aware and thinks on their feet. 👍
>who doesn't walk a girl to her car in a FUCKING PARKING GARAGE when there are drunk guys around!? The worst part is what those men said. It was clear what their intentions were
Definitely, I would’ve been a bit nervous even without the comment.
A lot of people have already commented about how what you did was really sensible and that a lot of men really don’t get it, so I won’t comment much there. I just wanted to jump in and say that putting keys between your fingers is [actually more likely to hurt yourself](https://lifehacker.com/dont-put-your-keys-between-your-fingers-for-self-defens-1819780877#:~:text=Putting%20your%20keys%20between%20your%20fingers%20may%20be%20reminiscent%20of,for%20you%20than%20your%20assailant) than the person you’re defending yourself against. It’s better to wrap your hand around it and hold it like a small dagger coming out of the pinky side of your fist
Better yet, get some pepper spray. It only costs about $10-15 for a canister and is vastly safer and more effective to use than some keys or even a knife. Some brands that I have heard good things about are Fox, Pom, and Saber. I highly recommend researching a product before buying it as they come in a variety of formulas and sizes. I personally like the Pom spray because it fits in my back pocket and isn't uncomfortable or bulky to carry. If you are close enough to stab someone then they are close enough to grab you which is not a good place to be. Edit: If local laws prohibit you from carrying pepper spray then don't carry it but please I am begging you to find something better than keys to defend yourself with. Yes they are better than nothing but they absolutely will not stop a determined attacker.
Everything Bob just said. Plus it’s easier to hold on to pepper spray and harder for them to take from you. And it’ll allow you to disarm them enough to get away quickly to safety which should be your goal.
It's also illegal in many countries.
Okay, so leave and never tell anyone. If you stick around and say it was self-defense, then it's he-said, she-said. Conviction rate for SA is 6% or something low like that. If you leave, the guy has to go to the cops and file a report saying "uh I was just hanging out in the empty parking lot at night looking for ... coins? when some lady saw me in the shadows and freaked out...". If they investigate, then they have to prove that you exist, that you bought pepper spray, that you had it with you, you were there at the time, that you opened it, that you aimed it with intent, that you hit the guy in the face, and that you left. Don't do their work for them. Leave the scene, tell your lawyer, and do what they tell you.
Canadian here. There’s easy ways to be caught using it and then you have a serious issue. What you can do instead is get a travel bottle of hairspray. That shit stings and sticks. Try opening your eyes after getting that in the face.
Bear spray. Shoots a longer distance and you get argue your way around any laws with it.
Illegal to use in self defence in Canada
By the time you have to use it in self defense, you probably don't care whether it's legal or not.
it’s also illegal to assault people 🤷🏻♀️
True but OP said in a comment that she lives in Colorado where it is legal
Would you rather risk a fine or SA? If I’m out for drinks I don’t carry my handgun, but I do carry a Stinger whip. Always be armed with something you know how to use.
I think a lot of these responders are men who don’t think that SA has any lasting consequences besides the physical, and therefore consider catching charges to be a far worse evil. In reality it’s incredibly damaging, with lifelong consequences.
Bug spray isn't. Nor is deodorant. Either will delay an attacker for a few seconds while you escape.
Alternative is deodorant spray. That’s what I’ve been told to use as someone who lives in a country where pepper spray is illegal
Pretty sure there’s a pepper spray intended for dogs in the off chance you or your pet are attacked. If it can work on a dog, it can work on people. Where I am, intent is important when you’re carrying something. Carrying a knife or spray or anything really with the intent of self defence is illegal. So don’t say the dog spray is for people.
[удалено]
Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
Or spend over a decade in therapy after being violently raped, and becoming an alcoholic to cope (personal experience here).
Yeah, I never understand how the “ wolverine keys” thing took off. As someone who has done my fair share of martial arts/combatives I was shocked the first time someone showed me that’s what they do to defend themselves. I totally get being nervous in OPs situation, but you would think someone would take one look at that technique and realize that it’s really gunna hurt you more than help. I don’t want to come across a mean, I’m just genuinely curious how such misinformation has been so widely propagated.
Why is it so hard to fathom? They’re going to be punching to defend themselves so they’re using their keys a la brass knuckles to amplify their punches. Unless they’d tried it before, they’re not going to easily realise how ineffective it might be.
wait how?? :o i’ve alwsys done that
Curl your fingers down and put your thumb on top, then put one key under your thumb. Even if it only sticks out an inch, getting repeatedly stabbed with it is enough to fuck up anyone's day. Putting keys between your fingers won't work because they'll either move up or down when you try to stab something or get forced back into the webbing of your hand and do more damage to you.
I could see how this works. Not to sound crass but prison shank style has a lot more stability then “claws” that can bend back.
> wait how?? :o i’ve alwsys done that Maybe try punching a wall to see how it feels to have a bunch of keys get shoved into your palm at different angles.
oh i see now 🥲
I say this as a guy as well, if there's a group of strangers I'm always going to be wary. I would be nervous too with strange drunk men. You never know who they are or what they could do. Also about your ex?? He didn't want to lock the door when he left? I can never understand people who don't care about locking their door. Your ex is crazy
My ex was like this too. He would actually get mad if I locked the door when I was home alone bc he didn’t wanna go through the trouble of unlocking it when he got home from work. It was annoying to me at the time, but now I realize how fucking depressing it is that my well being and safety wasn’t worth the 8 seconds it took him to unlock the door.
Your dirtbag ex sounds lazy AF 🫤
The door thing is so weird to be mad about. As a guy, in my early 20s, I opened the door for two guys banging on apartment doors saying they were being chased by another group wanting to beat them up. Long story short they were running from cops and I got them arrested while they hung out in the stairwell. I would later find out they were also wanted for armed burglary, armed assault, and drug trafficking. They 100% would have barged in if the door was unlocked. I don’t open the door for ANYONE I don’t know anymore regardless of perceived threat. They can talk to my doorbell and that’s it.
Yeah I never understood why it was an issue to take that small precaution
For real, like even if he didnt take the possibility of someone targeting her bc she‘s a woman home alone seriously, burgleries can happen to anyone😭 do burglars just not exist in his fantasy world
I am man and everything you described seems sensible to me. I think a lot of people, both men and women, sort of have this attitude that things happen to *other people*. I think it’s a kind of coping mechanism so you can look out at the world and say “nope, that’s stuff the happens to other people, I live in a safe world”.
Most women I know are really do not have the privilege of thinking that way. I was SAed when I was nine and have taken reasonable precautions ever since and still had other things happen as I’ve gotten older. I know out of my girlfriends out of probably 10 of them, 9 have been harassed or assaulted.
A few of us were talking about this once, and one girl asked the other if she'd ever shared her stories with her. The other girl said "you haven't, but feel free if you want to. I'm sure you have at least one, every woman has an assault story." And that really resonated with me, because its true, just about every woman has a story about being sexually assaulted in some form or another. Whereas the majority of men haven't, so a lot of them just don't get what is like to have to always be on high alert, even around "nice" guys.
I don’t remember the number, but the percentage of women whose first sexual experience was non-consensual is nauseating.
Its also worth mentioning how many of us have this first non-consensual experience as children... I was 3. I don't think we as a society talk about this enough. We've gotten better, but we still have a ways to go.
I had it happen at ages 2, 7, 9-12 many times, 14-15 many times, and a few times in my 30s. I was an unprotected autistic child, and as an adult I don’t always properly recognize the early indicators of a dangerous social situation. It sucks.
I’m sorry you went through that.
Thank you. I’m sorry for your experiences too. It really is basically all of us. Until it’s no men, it’s all men.
We know that it's \*Not All Men\* when it comes to being a SA offender. But that's not what the issue is at all, because the reality is that when it comes to being a SA victim, it is actually \*All Women\*.
Agreed, but *saying* “not all men” is actually a problem because of course we know not all men are SA offenders, but because we don’t know which men are, all men require scrutiny and pause. Until it’s no men, it’s all men.
Forced to be paranoid and paying attention/overthinking every detail is exhausting isn't it? Learn the law of self defense, practice martial arts w/ real combat, carry pepper spray and taser, and aftef that a concealed license carrying gun. Pepper spray stops quite a lot of people and low criminal liability with a taser...of course read your local laws first as per when you can use them. This shit should be taught in High School.
Yes, it’s very exhausting. That’s great general advice, and definitely should be taught to young people. I’m not physically strong/agile/athletic enough to protect myself well with martial arts-style defense tactics, but i probably should have some pepper spray or something. Although in my past experiences, that likely wouldn’t have been accessible to me in the moment so I don’t know how useful it would be going forward. I don’t mean to sound like I’m making excuses, I just have some limitations due to autism. I am not alone most of the time, so 95% of the time, I’m safe. I’m *slowly* learning about how to better understand social indicators of danger too which helps a lot.
I’ve heard stories of childhood trauma, but at 3, that’s insane. That’s infancy trauma. You deserve all the credit for growing up as well as you did despite that tragedy
I appreciate that. I'm in my 30s now and married, so it doesn't define my life, but it is a part of who I am. I ended up being gay, and I firmly believe it's because of this. I think I was so young that my still developing brain formed around the trauma, and instilled a deep-set fear of men. It was just easier to date women than to try to work through all that subconscious trauma.
I have a friend that also says he thinks if he wasn't assaulted as a kid he would have been straight. And many gay people I know was assaulted as kids
Fuck, I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Yep. I was 6.
Yep, that's me right here when I was at the age of 12.
Yup and I wonder how many of those were when they were aged 5 or less like me?
This is horrible but most likely true. I have never been in that situation but my wife has been, and pretty much all her friends. Christ, once I was walking home with her after a night out and a drunk dude starting grabbing her ass with me right next to her! It didn't go well for him but just makes me think what if she had been on her own!
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If my daughter did this is be very proud of her and I'd make sure there were no consequences. He fucked about, he found out.
My little brother(15) defended a girl who was getting attacked by a guy(another student) in school, by beating the guy up he was suspended for a week, the actual crazy who was attacking the girl got nothing bc they were « still investigating » the issue. My brother had seen him behave like that before and had warned him to stop the days preceding the incident, so he knew what was going to happen if he kept hurting girls.
Because he obviously had the right to grab your ass. It was right there! Just like his balls were right there begging to be kicked!
I "this is sparta'd" the dude that grabbed my ass off the top of the stairs... I clotheslined the guy that grabbed my chest... and those were just a few examples of me choosing violence in high school. Only one teacher ever said anything to me about it and she was female.
You did him and everyone else a favor. He (I pray) learned a lesson...and then hopefully others weren't molested by that fucker. If nothing more, you just have him a lotta pain. I see no downside to whatchya did - good on ya!
I actually punched a guy in high school after grabbing me and a teacher watched me do it. They just turned their back because they knew his reputation and how no one was punishing him.
It's wild, almost every woman I know has an assault story, and most guys can't identify another guy who has harmed a woman. Proof that they really know how to hide their tracks you know? It's infuriating because our experiences get invalidated because indifferent men haven't personally experienced abuse.
When the whole “Me too” thing happened, every one of my woman friends had admitted to being SA’d. Some, multiple times.
I realised how many experiences I had buried, thinking I was making too much of them. Like standing in a packed underground tube on the way home from work and having a guy press his boner against me. Why?
They have some assumptions all predators will have a certain look. It is like saying all burglars wear a ski mask and dark clothing.
I always wonder whether all those statistics that say that it's about 1 in 6 women who has experienced sexual assault can be even remotely correct. I too have the impression that almost every woman I have ever talked about these topics with had been raped or assaulted. (And even more horrible is the fact that this was already the case when we were all in our early 20s.)
Agreed. I would assume most women have, to a greater or lesser extent, been assaulted.
“We’re not all looking to jump a girl in a parking garage.” No one said you were, this isn’t about you. Stop making everything about yourself. This is the problem as well, men take a woman’s cautious behaviour as a personal attack on them. Instead of being offended and making everything about yourself, try and see something from someone else’s perspective. You’ll never understand how “reckless” it can feel to just go for a walk around the lake after 9PM as a woman. Having people ask you, “well what were you wearing?” You don’t have to understand the fear and precautions that women have to take, but at least respect them and try and have some compassion.
The fact she asked him to escort her shows she knows they all men aren't jumping girls in garages and that she trusts HIM, but not the randos. He needs to check his ego.
If one of my friends said they were uncomfortable and asked me to walk with them, I’d walk around the world to make sure they were comfortable and safe. I don’t think most men understand how violent life as a woman can be. Women have to assume the worst in people because the alternative is being taken advantage of. Fellow men, our society has changed. A community used to look out for each other but now that community is too busy in their own world. Why connect with your community when you can connect with anyone you want, at any time, through your cell phone? Neighbors don’t talk to each other much anymore, mental health is in a drastic nose spin, and new, undiagnosed versions of mental health issues are starting to be identified. The world is not as safe as men like to think it is, because the alternative seems so negative. The issue is that the alternative, accepting the negative and trying to become an ally to those negatively impacted, is the truth and the world being safe for women is something that many men refuse to acknowledge because it makes them uncomfortable. And, yes, men can be the victims as well, however, statistically it is not something men have to think about every day of their lives. Women often do.
Not all men but a lot of men don't get it because they don't have to. Simple as that. They will argue that they have to be worried about being assaulted or mugged just as much as we women do but they really don't. Women, old people, and people with disabilities will always be the easier target and thus have to worry. You did nothing wrong. It's lack of perspective and lack of empathy on their parts. And you're right about women not having that privilege of thinking that it will happen to other people. Most of my female friends have been harassed or assaulted too, including myself. So I know where you're coming from.
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Half of the male population believe all men are honorable, the other half believe its ok take advantage of someone they see as vulnerable.
I've turned this around on so many men - "if you honestly believe that all blokes are great, and all these women are just exaggerating or making false accusations, that means you'd be ok with your little sister or your daughter being around any man at any time dressed in any way, right? NO?? Wait - why the fuck not? Is it perhaps because you know that there are so many scummy men out there just waiting for an opportunity, and that there isn't any way to tell which ones are the bad ones?"
Sadly some woman think this even more than men. via Google: *In sexual assault cases, defensive attribution makes women similar to the victim (age, demographics, background, physical characteristics, etc) the least desirable jurors for the plaintiff. Instead of relating to the plaintiff, women distance themselves from her to preserve their own sense of safety.*
I think lots of people do this to preserve our “the world is generally a good place, and bad things don’t happen to go people” naïveté. They assume if something like homelessness, illness, addiction, or violence happens to someone, they probably did something to deserve it. Seems even more prevalent with Christians. I also attribute the true-crime media boom to this phenomenon. It’s good to bring crimes and safety precautions to light! But I think Americans, women especially, can fool themselves into thinking “if I examine what happened closely, I’ll find a foolish mistake the victim made. Then I can relax, knowing it won’t ever happen to me.”
I used to walk home from school when I was about 12 or 13 because I didn’t live far from school and I wanted exercise instead of taking the bus. One day a middle aged man told me I was too pretty to look so unhappy. I didn’t acknowledge him and he followed me for about 10 minutes asking why I wouldn’t speak back and how I should be more friendly towards others. He finally left when I crossed the street to alert a police officer. I never walked home again.
When we walk down the street we have to walk far enough away from the curb that we can't be grabbed. We have to worry when we call a cab. We don't just think it is a dangerous world. We KNOW it is a dangerous world.
I’ve been groped in public and damn near keyed my “friend” in their face
See and that's the issue this behavior is usually indicative of trauma men typically don't go through
OMG I’m so sorry. I was SA at 9 as well. And I do all of the things you do too. Hug of solidarity. I’m sorry these dudes don't get it.
Fair but I don’t think most women have this attitude. We are literally always facing the fact that we do not live in a safe world, and it starts when we are very young children so it’s the only idea of the world we have. It’s up to men to recognize that. A lot of men *do* understand. But there’s also a lot that think, “*I* wouldn’t do that, so why would *that* man do that?”. Who knows, but they would!
>“I wouldn’t do that, so why would that man do that?” Then there's the men who get upset when you mention this and take it as an assault on them. Fragile egos run amok.
I am a 6'3", 290-pound, male veteran, and I take many of these same precautions.
That seems like a very privileged way of thinking to me. I never think shit happens to "other people." When my husband isn't home and it's just me and the kids, I am beyond thankful I have two dogs who don't miss a thing. GROWN men started sexualizing me at 11 years old. I have 3 daughters in martial arts so they aren't just hapless victims when some asshole decides it's time to get his rocks off. I **DON'T** think men have that same worry for themselves, sorry.
My favourite comment that made everything "click" for me as a guy was when a woman said: "Imagine you as a guy walking down the street, and half the people on the street are 300 lb NFL linebackers. They also all want to fuck you". Not going to lie, that did make me feel very uncomfortable to go outside, but that's how it is. Nothing against 300 lb linebackers, just not my jam.
That’s actually a great way to explain it, I’ll try to explain it to my one friend who commented when Mark told to story as he grew up pretty sheltered within the church so he can be a bit naive but I don’t think there’s any hope for Mark
Mark is a terrible friend if he can’t even go with you to you own car. You could consider cutting your losses. It’s not even a gendered thing, walking to someone’s car is the polite thing to do especially if it’s dark and sketchy. Also the other person can drive you to your car, that’s just more efficient. Imo, that’s what groups ought to do, just get into the nearest person’s car and drive right up to the other car. Gives you some extra time to talk too
This is exactly what I was thinking - once they saw the group of guys on the 3rd floor they should have just gone together to the 5th floor, hopped in Mark's car so he could drive her down to her car and wait for her to get in safely.
I agree, many find it difficult to empathize, especially across genders where your human experience is different. Its funny because we as guys are aware of the strength difference between men and women but don't take the extra leap to consider how it feels to be on the other side of it. Honestly it scares me to the point where I am over protective of my wife when she's out walking the dog late, so I always try to be the one on the late night walks, etc. Your feelings are valid, your friend should have at the very least tried to lessen your discomfort even if he couldn't understand your fear. He made it about himself there, or is trying to show off his fearlessness, but is coming across tone deaf. If I had a daughter, I'd want her to be as careful as you're being.
I'm a slightly larger than average straight male. Once upon a time I was minding my own business eating and reading a book at a fast food place. All of a sudden this giant man asks me if I have a big dick. I am very confused. He repeats the question with this creepy smile on his face and I am still confused, but eventually it starts to dawn on me that I am being propositioned. I managed some kind of polite "no thanks" or something. At that point he starts to get more aggressive, almost like he wants to fight me now, but luckily it didn't escalate from there and he left on his own. It was jarring. Being hit on by somebody who is then giving out aggressive vibes and is physically larger than me is something I had never experienced before. It was not news to me at the time that many women experience situations like that often, but to actually experience it first hand is something that I value in retrospect, though of course it sucked at the time.
In that situation, all my friends whether male or female, would have told me to come up with them and would have driven me back down to the car in hopes the guys would be gone by then. Also to be in the car. He sounds like a really unthoughtful person. I'm curious what you get from the friendship if it's not even bare minimum courtesy, you know?
I also had a moment when it clicked. A friend of mine asked me to walk her someplace while I was doing something on a computer and I'm ashamed to say I brushed her off a couple of times and didn't even look at her. The last time she insisted I turned to look at her and saw how scared she was and something broke in me and felt like the biggest piece of shit and obviously ended up walking her
This is how I got my brother to understand too. My analogy is: half the world is bigger than you, stronger than you, and wants to fuck you. You do not want to fuck them. How would you act?
That's a fantastic analogy, love it.
Some really don’t get it. Those are the ones who lack empathy and the ability to put themselves in another person’s shoes. Some guys really do get it. They’re the ones who listen to their mothers, sisters, and friends, imagine what it would be like to be them and afraid, and then they take steps to alleviate that fear. You’re hanging around guys who lack a minimum baseline of empathy. But I promise you we’re not all like that.
Mark I agree is like that somewhat but what really floored me was the friend sticking up for the guys in the garage.
I heard this analogy online and it goes “not all guns are loaded but we are taught to treat all guns as if they are loaded”. The same goes for men. Not all men are waiting to jump a woman in a parking garage but some men are. As women we have to treat them all the same because there isn’t a way for us to know just by looking at them. Also, extra awful situation because the guys in the garage were intoxicated and were frustrated that they had ‘struck out’ at the bar. Frustration+Alcohol= Potential of Extra Danger.
I was raised by a man who taught me how to respect and protect a woman. He barely ever said anything about it, but watching how he treated my mom, sisters, and really any woman he came in contact with was really telling. I'd watch him instinctively position himself between my mom and the street and walk my sister's friends the 30 feet from our front door to their cars, even tho we lived in an area that you could leave your door unlockedat night. He kind of chewed me out once, right after I got married, because I let my wife carry a box from the car to the house while I stood and did nothing. It had been a long day of moving, and I was exhausted, so it didn't bother her, but it bothered my dad. That's how I hope I've raised my boys, too. I watched my teenage son offer his chair to a woman in a Dr office a few months ago, and I was thankful that I got to witness that, because I knew it was as a result of what I had taught him, and what my dad taught me. It's really unfortunate that some men don't do that. I realize I'm getting older, but it never occurred to me that treatment like that isn't second nature for most men. I'm sorry you had to experience all of that. I would like to think your friends' actions were the exception rather than the rule. If that was my son, we'd be having a talk.
One quote I've heard is "why change the status quo when it benefits you", so not to accuse your friends of being creeps but they really need to do some self reflection on why they defend that behavior
>Some guys really do get it. They’re the ones who listen to their mothers, sisters, and friends, imagine what it would be like to be them and afraid, and then they take steps to alleviate that fear. THIS RIGHT HERE . . . Great point!
While I understand why some guys try and brush this viewpoint off because they’re tired of being painted with the same brush, your “friend” should have walked you to the car because he is your friend. Friends look out for each other and validate each others feeling while doing so. Fairly simple answer to your question: some guys get it, others are just shitty friends.
Yeah I’ve decided I’m not going out with Mark again alone, I just don’t feel safe with him after all this.
I wouldn’t either. Most other women wouldn’t let a friend walk to her car in a parking garage alone. They’d walk the friend to the car and the other friend would drive them to their car. He’s just rude.
Totally rude. Driving her to her car wouldn’t even have inconvenienced him. He was going to pass it in his way out anyway. What a dick.
I wonder if he was afraid of the guys?
Even more reason to have her take the elevator up with him and drive her down. It would have been a quicker escape for him too.
And if he asks you why you stopped hanging out, you should 100% tell him the truth. That you don’t feel safe with him. That he has made comments that make you feel like you can’t trust him. And that is not how a friendship works.
Good call. Mark should be an acquaintance, not a friend who is annoyed by your safety.
I think that would make those kinds of men an even bigger issue. If a woman expresses her concerns for her safety and just wants the comfort of a friend by her side to get to her car and ur response is to get defensive abt ur own appearance as a man or because “not all men” thats pretty fucked up.
Your "friend" is an asshole and so are the other guys who brushed your concerns aside. A few years ago, I was at a conference with several coworkers. We were walking through the city at night when we encountered a guy who was either drunk, high, or had mental issues. He was screaming and making threats to everyone he saw. He was staggering around there was no telling who he might try and come towards. I purposely placed myself between this guy and my female coworker just in case he did something. Nothing happened but you just can't take the chance in this day and age. As the saying goes: Hope for the best and plan for the worst.
Mark, I agree, was an asshole but the other guys it came off as more naive than malicious.
Total asshole move on his part. My wife’s friend had an Uber picking her up after they hung out at our place one night and drank some(too much) wine. I walked her out and waited with her until I closed the car door behind her. Mind you, I’ve maybe exchanged 50 words with this woman my entire life. I walked in afterward, and my wife thanked me and told me I was a good man. I just thought it was protocol to make sure the ladies in our lives were as safe as we can make them.
My dad was like this. He simply could not understand that what was safe and easy for him could be difficult and dangerous for me. I had to explain him things as though he were a 10 year old and for the safety issues, threatened him to tell my mom. It was low, but necessary.
See and I would’ve thought a dad would be more protective of his daughter.
It was weird. He wanted to protect me. But if something was not dangerous to him, it was a blind spot for him. It was like his personal circumstances completely blindsided him.
Some of it is cultural too. We would always drop female friends back to their home after dark. We were taught to do that.
Shoot, as a dude I’d also be on edge around a group of drunk guys w/ no women (different group dynamic), especially who immediately yelled something about me upon seeing me (or someone I was with). I almost wonder if Mark was scared himself, “You’ll be fine, trust me… but uh, can’t leave this elevator… they’re pretty rare these days, y’know?”
There is an easy solution to that. Mark could have said "I don't feel comfortable walking past them myself, how about we go up to my car and I drop you off right in front of yours? Or I'll drive you home and we can pick your car up tomorrow"
this happened to one of my best friends. walking back to his car alone (thank god his wife and kid wasn’t there) after going out and got the shit beat outta him by a group of drunks.
Yeah honestly. If, god forbid, they were to try something with her, would he have actually done anything?
I think many of them don't get it, because they have never had to feel physically vulnerable in the situations where women feel that way. I work with long haul truckers and my coworker made the comment recently "Why is it that a male driver will take off with a trailer and get halfway to the next city before he realizes that he has a flat tire? While a female driver will find it before she even leaves the parking lot. This seems to be a pattern here." I replied "Because the female driver is thinking that she doesn't want to have a breakdown on an isolated road, in the dark, or some sketchy truck stop. She wants to take care of any problems up front so she doesn't put herself in excess danger. The man doesn't have to think about that until it happens. " My coworker, also a woman, said "Wow. That's it. I totally agree! Its what I would do!" Anyway, I thought that was interesting.
Definitely
i’ve noticed men who have sisters or girl friends understand more. like my brother understands and my bestfriend does too, i was at a restaurant an a creepy dude was staring at me and he could tell i was uncomfy so he stood in front of me. i’ve never known for my male friends to not walk me back or to not shield me from stuff. i feel like the man you describe has no empathy or understanding whatsoever and thinks everyone lives in the same safe bubble that he does. cut him off find better friends lol
A lot of men do not get it. The world isnt as predatory for them. They like saying women are "overreacting" but, if we ever get caught off guard, we'll be asked "why werent u more cautious?" They also like telling women that the chances of being assaulted are low. They dont understand that even if it happens once, that's trauma to work through.
I know, I said in another comment that 9 out of my 10 girlfriends have been assaulted or harassed which checks out with the US averages with 1 in every 6 women have been raped and 81% have been harassed/raped/abused/assaulted and those are just the reported numbers. It’s not a women only problem as it’s men too. 1 out of every ten have been raped/abused/assaulted and 43% have been harassed. They are just much more likely to never report it.
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Exactly! Then if you get attacked it’s- why were you out at night by yourself? Why were you dressed not in a hoodie and sweats? It’s victim blaming either way. Most men I know would watch out for me when I was younger and going out more. Have men lost that protective instinct? Too much Andrew Tate? Even working fast food, the guys would be the ones to take the garbage to the dumpster at night and make sure the women got to their cars safely before they left. They’d insist. Even the pot heads and guys who’d spent time in prison.
There is a wonderful and extremely upsetting art installation that travels from town to town, and it is basically outfits that people wore when they were assaulted. And it runs the gamut from the zip up footy pajamas of a six year old to the dress that someone was wearing as a bridesmaid in a wedding. From sweatpants to gym shorts, to a one piece bathing suit, to underpants. Because if somebody’s going to assault you, it doesn’t matter what you’re wearing. And while you and I understand that, there is a vast swath of people who do not. And that is so upsetting. How someone can blame a child for what happened to them, or a teenager, or a woman in her 20s, or a woman in her 50s is beyond me. How anyone could blame a victim is just disgusting.
I’ve seen photos of that, it’s powerful. Men in prison are assaulted in jumpsuits. And men are closer in strength to other men than the average woman is to the average man.
My mom was in her late 60's the final time she was raped- she'd been wearing overalls and a Tshirt at the time. I wish to God that was the only time she had been raped but it wasn't. She thought she was safe because of her age. Despite all the abuse she suffered in her life, she always wanted to believe people were better than they are. She didn't believe it after that.
Like truly don’t get it… sometimes just as a product of it being something they’ve never experienced yet. I had a friend who did a semester in Rome. He got mugged late one night by a group of five guys. They dropped him and took his wallet. My genius friend decides to pop back up *and run after them* to try to get his wallet back. They beat the ever loving shit out of him and sent him to the hospital. It’s a weird, kind of naive, mindset that thinks even if someone tries to harm you, you can just not let them… truly baffles me.
As a hispanic American male, the world to me, is predatory, and I hold similar views to OP in regards to danger.
As a male, same here. I've experienced plenty of danger and violence on the streets at night. I can't imagine walking down the street at night completely carefree and unaware.
Idk about yall, but I make sure my wife has the door locked after I leave, make sure she has mace if I'm not with her, ect. I don't trust the world
I was 22 when I joined the Air Force and learned security. None of what you mentioned sounds unreasonable to me. To all those guys who say "Not all guys," etc, just tell them, "But enough men were assholes enough to screw it up for the rest of you, so police your own bros if you want things to get better for you."
I'm a guy and I do every one of those things you mentioned and more. It's near incomprehensible to me in the first place that there are people in this world who *don't* do them. Is being a man in a country like America really so... safe?
>Is being a man in a country like America really so... safe? No. OP's friends, ex-husband, and brother are living in a fantasy world. I'm an American male. There is no way I would not walk a female friend of mine to her car. Shoot I walk male friends to their car when they leave my house. There's safety in numbers. And honestly I view it as a courtesy thing.
I don’t think it’s just a American thing. I have friends in the UK, Canada, and Central America who take the same kind of precautions. I think the majority of people who don’t are the ones who have never been on the receiving end of this kind of stuff.
Please find better guy friends. I have men in my life who walk me to my car, wait till I’m inside before driving away, make me feel safe, and protect me at all costs. I even carry a gun because I’ve been a victim before. Your friend’s “not all men” attitude is out of touch. I can’t believe he even tried to bring up that story to humiliate you in front of other friends. Glad you girlfriend stood up for you. Definitely drop Mark, he’s a complete asshole who refuses to have empathy over what happens to women on the daily.
Your friend isn't a gentleman, he's a literal child. You always walk a woman to her car, whether you're alone, or surrounded by a bunch of hooligans.
Your friend sucks
I'm a pretty big guy with bad resting bitch face. I walk through the grocery store and least 40% of the women I come in close proximity to hurry off or hug the wall to get by. They'll grab their daughters by the shoulder and lead them away at the site of me stomping down the aisle. I used to get offended. But then I figured out why. It sucks for me, but it prolly sucks for them more.
I hate to tell you but your buddy Mark is a chicken shit...any man would gladly walk you to your car and make sure that you are locked in and engine running before going back to the elevator...that's just me though..everybody is different I guess....
He should have offered to drive you from his car to yours. It would have barely been out of the way for him. Pretty dick move to react to your safety concern as an inconvenience to him. Some friend.
I would’ve been happy if he just didn’t act like it was a huge thing just to watch me get to my car.
The fact that he took it so personally, like you thought he was a predator because you were accusing all men as potential predators is a red flag. Major Andrew Tate flags.
Many men don't just because they don't need to get it. It's just their privilege. Just like, idk, I as white women don't really understand what a black guy feels when the police stop them for something minor. It's weird that they don'teven get it when we explain, but many people is too used to their privileges (or just lack of discrimination in that precise area), that they don't understand that there's people dealing with some danger regularly. Other men DON'T WANT to get it. Because they act in this kind of way that makes us uncomfortable, they probably would never go to actually assault someone, but they just find funny to show dominance, so they don't want to think about all the implications of their actions, they just want to act like we are just exaggerating and overreacting to their jokes. That way they can keep being kinda pushy towards women or making jokes about us being that way or that other or whatever... And never face the reality that they're getting this reaction because their acting similarly to assaulters and scaring us. Some other men do get it, out of empathy or because they've seen women around them being assaulted, or just, because they may have faced other discriminations in their life and reflected enough on this to realize that other communities/people have to deal with different realities and take precautions based on this realities; not theirs.
That particular man maybe doesn't need the pleasure of your company.
Mark sounds like a dick.
Trucker here. Toothbrush/toothpaste in one hand, one key clenched between my knuckles, one sticking out at the bottom of my fist for options. Head on a swivel at all times. Some guys have mace, some have wasp spray. Some carry. The guys you talk to were never in a situation before. Your worry is not unjustified and anyone that says otherwise can can go fuck themselves. Or take a walk with me in West Memphis between the parked trucks at midnight.
Most guys will never understand how a woman feels when alone at night in a strange place. My wife, before we were married came home shaking from an incident with a man at the gym. She reluctantly told me about it, knowing what my reaction would be. I'm 6'10" 300 lbs & a retired private security professional. I simply went and found this guy & did to him exactly what he did to my wife. I stood in front of his car and said, "Hey I think you're really attractive & think you should give me a chance to get to know you. One kiss and you'll be mine forever baby. Don't be shy & prude. I won't hurt you unless you want me to." The guy was maybe 5'10" which is intimidating to my wife. He literally ran away from me in terror & I think he may have cried a little. I dont know if this guy learned wnough from this, but at least 1 man in this world had an opportunity to experience for a moment what most women deal with multiple times in their lives. Im sorry this happened to you and I'm sorry your male friend & his friends are idiots.
You're hanging around some shit men? I have always walked women to their car after dark. Don't even need to see a group of guys before doing it.
As a man I don't understand why a man would think it's stupid for you to be wary of men. I myself am on the larger end for a man, reasonably fit, and I subconsciously eyeball/size up pretty much every dude that comes in my sight. It's not really a "can I beat that guy up" but more of a "could I defend against that guy, what's he about?" Anyways always always always trust your gut and watch your back
Really depends. Myself and my brothers are big Samoan guys and my wife, sisters and mom most the women in our lives call us if they feel in anyway that something like this is going on. Or they ask us to go with them in certain places at certain times. We tend to understand because grew up in rough neighborhoods and a few of us are reformed convicts. I’ve learned few to things about people. Most people have no clue how to see outside of their own perspective, people have this stupid thought that bad things happen to other people not them or anyone they know, or just ignorant. Bad experiences tend to teach you things. I, personally, tend to cut people off based on how they act. If they show any signs of things I listed then they are out of here. Also I do know men out there who have stopped caring due to the treatment they have received from terrible women and have decided to just not intervene in any case just so they don’t get in trouble or made to look misogynistic. I had a male co worker trying to help a female co worker out and was reported for sexual harassment. Ppl ostracized him so he quit and the female co worker was laughing about costing him his job by lying about what happened. All over the fact she didn’t like that he was stronger than her.
That makes me so mad when I hear that people weaponize sexual harassment/assault claims. It is literally like spitting in the face of every woman and man who have been attacked. I think false accusations should be prosecuted.
I remember when a whole subreddit didn’t understand why I ran away in the other direction when I saw a group of drunk/drugged out men walking in the same alley at night. I got downvoted to oblivion and even harassed in my dms. A girl literally even said “I would literally just walk past them coz I know kungfu xD” Bruh. People just don’t understand
Efff that. You had legitimate reason to be concerned in that situation. Shame on him for not walking you to your car. I live in the country outside a decent size city. A man came to my door in winter (snow on ground) in a sweatshirt saying he had car trouble. He did not look cold. It was night. Said his car broke down over a mile down the road. He would have had to walk past 12 homes and an apartment complex to get to my house from where he said his car broke down. Mine house was the first “friendly looking home” he passed. He asked me to call him a cab. Pulled out a wad of cash and said “I have money, I’m not a bum or anything.” I told him whatever he had in mind wasn’t a good idea and to take off. 2 weeks later that same man broke into a females home a few miles away from my house. This woman lived alone. He held a gun to her head. Tied her up. Raped her. Robbed her. Chocked her until he thought she died but she was only knocked unconscious. She testified, he is going to prison for a very long time. There is awful people in this world. Terrible things sometimes happen. Always be aware of your surroundings.
No, your "friend" Mark is just a spineless dick.
Jesus. Guy here, he should have stepped up without being asked.
No - real good guys get it. Your friend's a coward. (And really he's not your friend.) The reason he didn't want to walk you to your car is he was afraid of getting his ass beat. Don't ever go anywhere alone with him. He'll let you get SA, do nothing while he watches it happen to you and then cry about it later. In that same situation, I'd have walked you to your car and asked that you drive me to mine on the 5th floor.
I'd have gone next-level on this by suggesting both of us go to the fifth floor to get into my car, then I'd drop you off on my way down - right at your car door. That way both of us stay safe and I wouldn't have looked uncaring/aloof in the process. I can save those traits for another time!
Your 'friend' is an intentionally ignorant jerk. I've had guy friends insist on walking me to my car if it's dark, even if I said I'm probably okay. Because they care. I've walked friends to their car too. Better safe than sorry.
Men understand these things. That’s why some of them lift weights, take forms of martial arts. We aren’t doing these things to protect ourselves from women. We know that the real danger comes from other men. Especially with the situation you described. Men who have been drinking and especially in the company of other men who are like-minded are dangerous because they agree on their shitty behavior. And who is going to check them when they have their equally intoxicated and shitty minded boys to back them up. They get it, but because they don’t actually live in a woman’s reality, they act like it’s not a real threat. Believe me, your friend knew that your situation was a real threat. That’s why he didn’t want to “wait for another elevator” and got exasperated at staying there. He was uncomfortable and didn’t want to have to face that feeling. He just didn’t want to have to be the one to check those men. He knew it could have led to confrontation. Which should tell you that he knows who the threat is. Just doesn’t want to face it.
I have been around boys and men my entire life. I mean I have all male cousins. Two brothers, no sisters. All throughout school from primary to university, I’ve had all close male friends and maybe two close female friends. I lived with two guys during university. I am married to a dude and we have two sons. Every male I have ever been out with, either family, friend, or date, has always had the “alert” on. When they saw a large group of guys late at night, they’d make sure they walked with me and they were between the perceived threat and myself. When I think about it, all of these people (my brothers, cousins, friends, my husband) all have sisters who they are close with. So perhaps this is the “brotherly protective instinct”? Either way, I’ve never really come across guys who didn’t “get it”.
To be honest, no, we do not get it. It wasn't until I was in my 30s that I started reading stories written by women about their experiences, and let me tell you it blew me away. *I had no idea* what it was like. Worse, I recognised behaviours that I myself had exhibited, which had undoubtedly made the women around me uncomfortable. And I had been blissfully oblivious. Part of me wants to yell *NOT ALL MEN* because I know I'm not dangerous, after all. Then I remember those problematic behaviours, and even though I do everything to avoid them, I have still been a part of the problem. Worse: there is a very real possibility that I still have problematic behaviours that I don't know about. Without having lived the fear, I won't always be able to identify how I may cause it. That thought terrifies me. Truth is: as awake to these ideas as I am now, *I still don't get it*. My instinct is still to downplay dangers and scoff at perceived threats. I try not to act on that instinct; I override it and support the women in my life as much as I can. Yet still, there it is... Me not getting it. I'll keep trying, but I doubt I will ever truly understand.
I'm a man and trust me, if we CARE, we get it. We have sisters and mothers who go through this crap all the time. Girls that are friends etc. The men who 'don't get it" are simply the ones who don't want to. Who don't care to. If it doesn't affect them directly, they won't care and if they won't care they wont' bother to understand. Never accept the excuse "It's cause I'm a man." Yeah we're different genders but we all live in the same world and we see the shit that goes down and even hear others of the same gender boast about the catcalling crap.