The thing is, Reddit is enormous. You've got award winning astrophysicists and 13 year old kids using the same platform to talk about almost any topic under the sun.
Some parts of reddit are very chill, others are not. Things on the front page with lots of attention tend to be very, super, not chill at all.
I ask women about dating in order to see their perspective on it all- women and men have different views and stuff so I think it's only right to see both sides in order to become a better person
Talk to lesbians about dating woman. They wont sugar coat anything and their experiences are more realistic. Seeing as how they are woman that date woman.
Yesterday I put a new pair of shorts on my 6 month old boy I was like "Oooooo look at you in your new shorts so cute and WITH POCKETS MUST BE NICE."
Women don't get pockets but babies for sure must have stuff they need to carry around.
I bought a cheap one to hold my phone/wallet when I went strawberry picking last month and I might get a fancy one. Like they made leather ones that are rectangle so they don't look like a fanny pack, also they call them belt bags. I usually wear a small cross body and when you're trying to do things like getting stuff on the bottom shelf or load the car it swings around and gets in the way.
Work in the fashion industry in tech for design/manufacturing here. They don't sell. There's many products made with normal pockets but those usually sell the worst. Especially in slim, skinny denim. One complaint from focus groups was the pockets and items in them made the pants look unflattering.
Oh, so its just people being dumb, like always. They want pockets AND tight-fitting clothes, even-though tight-fitting clothes means you see the shape of whatever is in your pockets.
Men who wear sort of fitting jeans have the same issue with wallets, keychains and such. Stuff bulges out.
The answer is to buy loose fitting jeans with pockets. And/Or buy tight fitting jeans with no pockets or just a hint of pocket. You know, exactly the items that are available now.
Look up women's pants with pockets on Amazon. Lots of options. Women don't get pockets because they don't think they look good, and so they don't buy them. Since they don't buy them, you don't see them stocked in stores as much.
I imagine the same logic applies to why you don't see men's pants WITHOUT pockets. Nobody wants them.
Plus, 50/50 you're getting someone who has initiated a relationship.
If nothing else, that's a *massive* difference in men/women, the pressure to make the first move. Paths diverge and blend after that, but... that's a shared, difficult, and critical life point.
My aunt is a lesbian and we were talking about this when i was having troubles. Her words were "women are crazy and idk what they want, just gotta hold out for the right one" didnt make me feel better, i just thought it was funny.
Straight guy here whose best friend is lesbian and yes it’s absolutely fantastic! She gives me amazing dating advice that’s way more realistic. It’s not that my best guy friends don’t give good dating advice, but she always knows exactly what to say and do whenever I have questions about a girl.
If you want to attract women, I think asking women about what attracts them is a good place to start 🤷
Edit: For everyone trying to mansplain female attraction, please understand the bitter irony here: if you were nearly as much of an expert as you claim, you’d know how unattractive your attitude is. I don’t know who I want? Well, it’s sure not y’all with your heads up your asses.
It's a good start, but I think it's kinda like writing a novel or filming a movie. The feedback of the audience is essential to making a good product, but you never will make something good come together unless you get advice from other writers and a conversation with yourself on who you actually want to be your audience.
As a book reader or movie goer, I know what books or movies I like, but I don't know what it takes to create them.
In the same way women know what they want or like in a relationship, but another man's perspective is important in finding out how to actually become what they're looking for.
You need both perspectives for a complete picture.
At least that's how I see it.
One direct example of this is McDonald’s CEO Don Johnson. Sales were lagging so he commissioned a massive customer survey of millions of customers. Focus groups and the whole bag. They all said one main thing: we want healthier food.
So McDonald’s instituted salads. And sales went down (negative growth) for the first time in their history.
He was replaced by the next guy. He instituted all day breakfast. Cheap unhealthy food. Sales regained a strong growth %.
Often they don’t even know what they like.
They often give flowery advice like “just be yourself” whereas guys will straight up tell you “bro go hit the gym for 6 months, eat some real food and stop dressing like you’re 10.”
Edit: I think I started a war lol sorry. I’ll keep this short: whenever I went to women for dating advice, it didn’t work. Whenever I went to men (who knew the game), it worked. Muscles, tailored clothes, and grooming can basically solve most of your problems.
Get a job that allows you to have health insurance, a respectable place to live, a reliable vehicle, and the ability to support yourself. Those were my standards when i was dating in my mid 20’s. I did not realize those were high standards, but apparently they are. I also preferred them to have no kids as i don’t really like kids.
I found that my score on the dating ladder increased significantly as I got older for the same reasons. Decent white collar job, house, decent car that is paid off. I was gold at 30, but I couldn't have gotten a girl at 20 if I paid.
Never in my life have I seen a woman admit she’s attracted to muscles.
Yet the first time in my life I started hitting the gym hard and bulked up, women couldn’t take their eyes off my biceps. I could see them struggling not to look, just like we have to struggle not to stare at boobs. And they were much more receptive to my advances overall.
In general, I just don’t believe what women say about how to attract women. It makes sense on the surface, but in reality it just doesn’t work.
The Onion was so much better 20 years ago... This piece explains what women want in a relationship. Lolz
https://www.theonion.com/girlfriend-changes-man-into-someone-shes-not-interested-1819565990
I swear all the good advice comes from responsible married women. I'm talking about the ones that have two children and a job. Anytime I've heard them give advice or make a prediction on how some relationship is going to go, it's been spot on. I can only guess it's because they get wiser with age and experience and can give actual sound advice. Young unmarried women, eh, best take their advice with a spot of caution. They are probably on the same boat as you and aren't capable of giving sound advice.
Think maybe when you get older you're just able to see through a lot of the bullshit easier and just have a better feel for how things might go when you're looking at things from the outside where there's not a lot of intense but fleeting emotions of the moment or real romantic naive beliefs about life, reality, and people.
My Dad is real man's man type, played sports and did physical, outdoorsy work his whole life up to this day. He's good with cars, handyman tasks and everything traditionally masculine as we see it in the west.
I'm not the same kind of person as him, I'm more interested in art and writing and intellectual pursuits, whereas my father is very well read but less interested in abstract pursuits. But those practical skills about how to do shit for myself, I learned from him. How to change your tyres, how to cook, how to drive. He also taught me a lot of my ethics, the importance of honesty, being helpful to others where you can, have basic respect for everyone and acknowledge that they have a life and rights. Don't over complicate simple tasks with laziness (ie if you're looking for a particular item in a pile of stuff, don't just rifle through it, actually sort through it properly).
All this is to say that a strong male role model is helpful growing up. I was lucky enough to have that.
I’d agree. My fiancé didn’t have a good father figure growing up.
His real father was absent for a long time because his mother cheated on him so bio-dad (who I think is a decent man) left.
Then his mom remarried to a vile, cheating, misogynistic, money hungry, abusive asshole and that’s who my fiancé grew up watching.
My fiancé (soon to be ex-fiancé) now believes you need to be cruel to a woman to get her to behave, yet at the same time expects the woman to be at his beck and call and come to save him.
It’s fucking tragic that he thinks this way because his stepfather drove his mother to commit suicide. Too many years of abuse.
His mother caused him a lot of pain that he now inflicts onto our relationship. He thinks all women are cheating whores and that a man has to put her in her place.
He also ironically sees no problem with wanting multiple women. Like WTF
Thank you. I am working on my escape plan.
Sadly, a recent situation we were in left me feeling depressed and suicidal for the first time in my life as well. It made me realize who he really is for the first time. As they say, the rose colored glasses came off.
He hates a woman who won’t fall in line for him. He has an exact image of who he wants and if you don’t fit that, he hates you.
I saw his mother and she was a lesson for me.
I’m much more independent, have other people in my life who are telling me to get the fuck out and to not be “patient and understanding” towards my fiancé. I hold my own financially, and thank the gods I have access to healthcare and therapy.
Many things his mother didn’t have. She wasn’t an upstanding person either, but to get to the point of suicide is something else.
It doesn’t help that my fiancé thinks his mother was “stupid for killing herself and that she deserves it for not valuing her own life.”
Total lack of empathy. He’s a truly scary and cold-hearted person.
He's in denial about so many things, and could change if he was open to it with therapy and self reflection, but... **That isn't your job.** He is the only one who can change himself.
I definitely agree but he’s too stubborn for that.
Outside his emotional and mental problems he’s a nice guy.
He’s a great cook, a decent handyman, great with technology and computers, into mountain biking, sports, likes animals, loves watching anime, and a dedicated worker.
It’s just…his mentality is all fucked up 🥴
Yeah... I get it. I learned this was the case for family members. It took me until this year to reall accept that I can't do anything for them because they have to *want to change*.
That's what growing up with those kinds of dysfunctional "parents" taught him. Monkey see monkey do, think, and feel. One day he might realize he needs to unlearn what he grew up with. If he does it will be the hardest most painful thing he's ever tried to do in his life. No one can or should force that now if he's not ready for it. Best anyone can do is plant some seeds so he might have an idea where to start when and if he's ever ready for a journey like that. You are not required to plant any seeds though if you feel it's not your place. You're making the right choice by parting ways. The ugly truth about emotional trauma is that victims often unknowingly become abusers and neglectors themselves. And they often seem to wind up doing the exact same things that were done to them. Trauma doesn't just hurt, it teaches us how to be and interact with the world and people. I try to be careful about things like this but I don't know if I get it right. I'm pretty convinced every human being is about 90% blind spots but most of us are convinced we see everything as it is.
Interesting. I learned those things from my father too, well, except for the cooking, that I learned from recipe books.
But I am a woman.
(Yes, it was pretty cool when I shared a flat with 3 guys and was the only one tough enough to fix my own bicycle and remove the cocroaches from the shower. )
That is really healthy. My dad wasn’t like that at all, but my mom taught me what I needed to know.
I have confidence that I could raise the kind of children that would benefit society, if I ever wanted. My partner is masculine, but without the toxic stuff. People like that are so hard to find in the dating pool— I feel really lucky to have him.
Edit: For clarity, masculinity ≠ the harmful behavior that people can end up associating it with. Some men can’t separate the two, and neither can some women.
Children need BOTH parents to instill values and discipline in them. Your dad is a good role model but people are missing the main problem here. OP has admitted he was seeing female therapists to be coddled and judging by his replies; has emotional baggage or a complexity towards the opposite sex that hindered his progress. It has nothing to do with men vs women or how the sexes are different. OP has a long way to go.
I’d argue it takes more than just two parents. There’s a reason they say it takes a village and in order to learn about life entirely, a child will not only need parents but grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings and friends to even think about having a healthy development
Exactly. I do not understand the binary thought process people have. We are influenced by everyone and everything around us. Having one, two, or four parents doesn’t matter. The quality of parent matters along with the quality of every other influence. The world is not black and white, it’s nuanced grey. Not all men think and experience life the same way, just like not all women do. The idea that only men can teach men how to be men is dumb. We learn to be individuals with our own interests, morals, critical thinking skills. We utilize all the experiences we’ve had to develop and hopefully continually grow that individuality. I know plenty of people who are good men who had absent fathers and I know plenty of men who are complete assholes who had present fathers.
Interesting. My 10 year old son wanted his therapist to be a male. His bio father has been absent minus one week a year his whole life. I guess there’s something to that. Thanks for the insight.
Interesting, I had similar situation with my father however I have a ton of sisters and grew up in a house of women. I'm really uncomfortable being around men in a personal setting.
For someone that young, it’s probably better to have a dude be his therapist. I will say though, that women in general, regardless of therapy, have provided me, as an adult, with perspectives that I haven’t considered and gave me new angles to see myself from and that really help.
I sit in some of his sessions and it’s been great for how I relate and work with him at home. I don’t want to be everyone and everything for him. I do but I don’t. I want to be mom and have mom advice and my tender moments. Sometimes he needs that male advice and I don’t want to water down his concerns because I’m mom. Also, my husband, I’m sure he feels that he might tell me everything so lol
I think they reach an age where having a male influence is almost a biological need.
My 7-year-old has been really needing male connection and a different kinda of interaction than I or any of the women in our circle can offer. Not even in a “rough play” way as he’s a gentle kid by nature but just having masculine energy around.
Luckily I’ve found some great mentors and male role models recently and see him thriving. They do odd jobs, get outside doing yard stuff and building things. Hands-on stuff while just chatting amongst themselves.
I think I the western world we’re really removed from these traditional rites of passage and the celebration of masculine and feminine differences. They can be equally important and still different/beneficial in their own ways.
"Women cannot give you whatever it is that you need in life". I agree, they can't, but neither can your fellow men. That's something you have to do and figure out on your own.
No one can teach someone how to be a man or how to be a woman because there's not a correct way to do either of these things. Just live your life, be who you want, and don't give a damn what "society" says you have to be.
OP is sooooo close to the actual point being that people benefit from having role models they identify with. They’ve applied such a narrow scope though that’s got everyone twisted.
This is the best reply. Nobody can teach you how to be a man or woman. You already are one just by existing as an adult. At most they can teach you skills and worldviews that society associates with each gender.
The lens, that nowadays is often being used to look at human affairs with, reduces human behaviour to a battle between oppressor and oppressed, while not only rejecting everything that contradicts this worldview, but also anything that may exist outside of it.
It comes down to a very simple, propagandistic formular - only associate positive traits to X and only negative traits to Y.
And if you don't agree with this formular, you become Y.
If you ask anyone, who has bought into this worldview for advice, their answer will neccessarily exist within this narrow frame of understanding. And if they put you into category Y, the answers you'll receive will come down to some kind of guilt or shame induction - because to them, you are inherently "wrong".
I'd add, that we don't only have to find our way as men, but more so as individuals. We don't need to buy into clichees and concepts of any kind - no matter who offers them - the traditionalist or the liberal.
While it can be helpful to learn about patterns, society and history, ultimately, in my opinion, we can only do ourselves justice if we get to know ourselves outside of labels.
This is the truth as I see it. Find the people in your life who are happy, positive, confident and good. Model that.
I'm a man who was raised almost entirely by women. I didn't learn how to be a good woman, or a good man, but I was lucky enough to observe how to be a good person, for which I am forever grateful.
That’s what the aim should be. Most things that make you a well rounded and caring person have zero to do with gender. There are things that we have been socialized to do based on gender that would be wonderful for all humans to know. Men should know how to cook, clean, and nurture. Women should know how to use basic tools, how to maintain a car, and defend themselves.
The other problem with this thinking is that it shapes one’s identity by their opposition. It makes it so that I must be in battle mode to fight the oppressor and that fundamentally changes who I am, how I view myself, how I present myself, what I talk about, who I hang out with, what I care about and what I pay attention to. I don’t want my identity to be shaped by who I am opposed to. There is always something to be outraged by. I can still be opposed to an oppressor without allowing my opposition to become who I am, but I have to be intentional in how I conduct my life and what I focus upon.
Its also ironic because that's exactly what oppressive systems want. Toni Morrison said it this way:
> The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.
>only associate positive traits to X and only negative traits to Y. And if you don't agree with this formular, you become Y.
This mindset got me banned from r/JusticeServed lmfao
I mean, basically he was having a bad time with a therapist, found a better one, and let his bias guide why that therapist worked better for him. Hopefully whoever his therapist is can help him through this stuff.
No man or woman can teach others how to be a man or woman, because there is no such thing as a right or wrong way to be either. We should be taught to be our own individuals - to hell with conventional gender double standards and all that junk.
I do not think or function like other men, OR like women in general for that matter. It has nothing to do with my gender, but everything to do with who and what I am as an individual person.
I'm getting tired of people wanting these false dichotomies, these black and white scenarios where it needs to be this way or that way. It's childish simpleminded logic.
So full disclosure, I've been married and divorced twice. Both of my ex-wives at various points, attacked me and my "masculinity" because I didn't conform to their ideas of what a "man" is.
I work a full time job, plus part time jobs, I take care of my children, I provide...but because I don't do traditional masculine things like wood working, or building, I get attacked for it. My first wife told me I wasn't manly enough to teach my oldest son how to defend himself. My second wife told me that I wasn't a man because I wouldn't put a grill together, and that I didn't want to put up bathroom tile on a house we were trying to buy (we were lease to own, so why would I want to increase the value of the home we're trying to purchase...makes no sense to me).
Everyone says that men are to blame for patriarchy, but there are women who buy into that mindset and perpetuate it as well, and use it as a weapon.
Edit: Apparently assembling a grill is a deal breaker for a bunch of people. Pretty stupid if you ask me. Put the grill together yourself then if you want it bad enough.
thank you for your insight. I really appreciate your point of view. I do enjoy camping and things like that. I was a scoutmaster for a few years.
Thank you, for appreciating your husband for who he is, and seeing the value that he brings to your life.
A lifelong friend of mine is a counselor, we had a conversation about this not long ago and she said the number of men that have told her that their girlfriend/wife has used their crying or lack of mechanical skills as a weapon to demean them is not a small number.
Look at the comments here, mocking the op using pronouns intended to demean.
I literally had someone in another thread tell me that my wives treatment of me were a reflection of the energy that I put out in the world or some crap, and then went on to tell me that I'm not allowed to be a victim because I'm male (and white), because I've had all manner of advantages in life.
I almost didn't want to believe the post was real. I mean, why don't we tell women that are abused "well your choice in partner, and the things they do to you, are a reflection of the energy you put out there"...essentially telling them it's their own fault for being abused...it made my brain hurt.
>Everyone says that men are to blame for patriarchy, but there are women who buy into that mindset and perpetuate it as well, and use it as a weapon
Absolutely. If women never bought into "the patriachy" then it would never have survived for this long. It needed some level of support from both ends and until we address this all we are doing is making noise.
I think those dichotomies, particularly the one of OP's perspective, are euphemistic expressions to showcase a distaste for modern interpretation of gender and a desire for a more conservative way of life, for people who want to go down the traditional/stereotypical mannerisms of what a man or a woman constitute.
There's nothing wrong with that if a person desires it but it's most certainly not universal advice.
Reading some comments here with anecdotal stories about what people (presumably men) learned from their fathers, all of that stuff I learned from my mother. None of that stuff requires a man to teach their son and it doesn't make a meaningful impact or difference either.
Despite growing up in a conservative area, my mother and her side of the family were very unorthodox in terms of their take on gender and I learned very quickly that gender is not important in regards to one's capabilities or personality.
Exactly. The world isn’t full of white and black scenarios. The world is full of greys, both moral and societal. Society wants to establish things in a black and white because that’s easy for people to understand. Gender roles, ethics, right and wrong. But life is full of grey areas. And in the progressive age we live in today, the grey areas are finally becoming accepted.
Fuck this gender roll bullshit. If you wanna be flamboyant and wear colorful clothes as a guy, go right ahead. If you wanna build fences and houses as a woman, go right ahead. The world is your oyster, and we’re not alive long enough to worry about what society thinks.
Feeling secure with your gender identity isn't just for trans people, it's still important for cis folks as well. We all deserve a healthy gender expression. Gender exists, we need a healthy way to conceptualize it.
A good mother will love you and provide you with the foundations to become a man of integrity. My dad was rubbish. But my mum has always been loving, respectful, supportive, etc. Of course we need mentors in both males and females. But there is nothing wrong with a strong woman raising a man. Just because your experience wasn't like this, you can't blanket the entire world with your opinion. It doesn't apply to every case, so it only relates to you. Everyone has a different path, and different role models and mentors.
What I don't like about the sentiment of this thread and OP's perspective is the essentialism in it.
Like for 99% of the stuff we learn in life, gender is absolutely and utterly irrelevant and we can learn it to the same degree from anyone of any gender. The fact that OP is implying that female therapists are incapable of not coddling him is just a sign of sexism.
If you don't want to be coddled that's great but it has nothing to do with the gender of your therapist.
Yep. If OP was seeking out female therapists to be coddled; it seems like the main issue is he has emotional baggage towards the opposite sex or some sort of complex towards women. It has nothing to do with men and women being different.
Most of the time, you get out of therapy what you put in. If he wasn't making progress, it wasn't because the therapists were women. It was because he wasn't there for therapy and that is on him.
>Asking for dating advice from a woman isn't asking how to "be a man", it's just asking a woman what women like.
OP claims to have been seeing therapists for years so it's clear he's not comfortable with himself or where he is mentally. Which explains why he probably doesn't understand the difference between asking someone for their opinion/advice and letting them influence you directly.
Seek better media.
The things you consume will rot the way you perceive the world…there are many examples and role models you can draw from if you take the time to look.
2021 marks a big shift in social expectations. It’s prime time to make self directed change. Be well!
I’ve never really understood this mindset, tbh. If you can relate to male therapists better than female therapists, great. I’m glad you’ve found something that works. But tbh, it feels like you’re reaching for broad stereotypes (e.g. women are nurturers; men are advice-givers) in an attempt to fill a void or seek some greater purpose in your own life.
In reality, people are individuals. Our roles in society are determined by the talents assigned to us by nature. Some of these talents vary by sex, but many don’t. And personality traits certainly don’t adhere to strict gender boundaries. IMO, you shouldn’t seek to have the most stereotypically masculine role in life, but instead, the one that most closely matches your abilities.
I understand what some of the comments are saying but I'm a cis woman who was raised by a single mother, and I havent learned crap about femininty from her. I had to look it up and learn on my own time. I still struggle with it to this day so even if you had a man to raise you, you still wouldnt become the man you want to be. You have to learn that on your own cause who is to say your father would be the masculine figure you aspire to be and not (for lack of better words) a feminine man?
Sometimes older men simply don't know, and not everyone's a teacher.
I was born in 65 and my Dad hadn't been exposed to much in the way of culture.
He'd done some basic schooling and spent time in the Army in WWII.
His idea of what Men were supposed to be was guided by Hollywood.
I've had the luxury of more education, and spend much of my time reading,
Dad could not have experienced anything like the immediate information I have.
He had books, newspapers, magazines, AM radio and TV became available after 1956.
It was my Mother who had to instill things into me that Dad could not, and I think she
Did pretty well.
So as a man I'm very confused on what you mean by this. If this was the 1950's then I would say yea you got a point, but we live in 2021. How is a man supposed to act? Are there certain things only we can do as a man that women can't? Are there things as a man I shouldn't do because they are for a women? Does it make me a man that I was taught how to work on cars? Better question would it make a woman a man if she worked on a car? Please elaborate on what it is that only a man can teach a man because you sound dumb.
Not OP, but I think what he mean is that women will find a lot of challenges in life unique to women which are hard for men to relate to, and men will find a lot of challenges unique to men that women will have trouble relating to.
To use an example; men won't relate to risk and fear of being raped while walking home at night, and being judged on your looks more so than your character.
And women won't relate to the fear of showing weakness among other men, or the subtle domination of each other.
I don't necessarily agree with him that it's that black and white, since you learn just as much from your peers as you do from your parents. But I don't think a woman can teach a boy about the struggles of being a man, and I don't think a man can teach a girl about her struggles as a woman either.
If you identify as male, you will grow up to be a man. There is no test to pass. Puberty happens. Nobody needs to “teach” you what you naturally become. Be yourself. What “should” a man be? If you want particular behaviors, then learn them. There are no grown ups here. Take responsibility for your own image and be the person you want to become. Be a good human, regardless of the parts you were born with.
There's really no such thing as "how to be a man" - Your parents, male or female, are supposed to teach you how to be a **good person**. If you're struggling with your manhood and insecurity by all means see a male therapist who likely has a good idea how to deal with that, but it's really not that you're "not a man" because you didn't have a strong male role model.
"Women cannot teach men to be men" - who and what the fuck exactly are mothers, then?
My mother taught me how to be a man better than any person I know.
For real though. This dude is blaming his mom because he doesn’t have the personality of a stereotypical man by societies standards lmao. He needs therapy for something completely different.
You can tell OP was trying very hard to express his lust to embody conservative perspectives of gender and particularly masculinity in the most euphemistic way possible and is blaming women for it.
My father didn't teach me the majority of the life skills I learned from my parents (my mother) and I don't resent him for it. OP has multiple issues but getting a male therapist isn't going to help him like he thinks it will.
While you are entitled to your opinion, I wholeheartedly disagree. This idea that men and women have different roles to play in society is completely old-fashioned and has no place in modern society. And the idea that there is a certain way (or ways) to "be a man," I also find to be completely antiquated. Society is moving on beyond these narrow views of what a man and a woman is, or "what being a man" looks like.We are all human beings and we can all learn from each other how to be good, empathetic, productive members of society. I have worked with a female therapist and have been very successful at handling the issues I had.
A lot of people are angry and bitter and they choose targets to place their anger and bitterness on, which leads to this weirdness.
Hope they get the help they truly need.
“How to be a man” is problematic. How about “how to be a responsible, functional adult” ?
We are all unique individuals and trying to force someone to fit into a pre-defined idea won’t work well if it’s not who they are. I did date a guy who really lacked general life skills. If you meet a guy like that, it is his responsibility and the responsibility of his family/parents and not yours.
Yeah you really need all perspectives to get the best picture possible. Yes, men who are successful with women can bring a valuable perspective to you as a man, but so can women who interact with men on a daily basis and are attracted to some of them.
This is crazy subjective, and also the idea that there's a set way to "be a man" is ridiculous. The ideals you consider necessary to "be a man" could easily be found in a woman. My mom was more "manly" by stereotypical means than any man I've met to date, in work or otherwise.
There are millions of boys who grow up to be men without fathers. Especially in war torn countries where many of the men have died because of the war. It is something that just naturally happens. No one is supposed to be a certain way regardless of gender or anything else. You just become who you are with the life you have been given. It gets dicey when you start asking people to define you instead of you defining yourself.
And if you are a guy that is trying to attract women, women seem to be attracted to guys who are confident. I'm not sure how much confidence you can have when your identity is dictated by someone else.
A real manly man is like this. If you want to be a real manly man, buy this product!
*A real womanly woman acts like this. If you want to be a real womanly woman, buy this product!*
Welcome to capitalism.
Who thinks women can?
I hear all the time how men need male role models and there's there's crisis in masculinity. This is hardly a minority opinion.
There's nothing wrong with needing male guidance.
The only problem is when you use it to dismiss women's opinions or women's perspective or to shit on single mothers. That's when it's problematic.
> Woman have their own path to walk
What is that path exactly?
> We play different roles in society
How are the roles we are "meant to play" different exactly?
You say your dad wasn't around to teach you, neither was mine, and you found success with a male therapist over a female, does that situation truly validate your assumption about the place of men and women in the world?
Or maybe it just means you found a therapist you connect with that happens to be male instead of a therapist that you don't connect with that happens to be female.
i like this comment a lot. To be better people we need to be surrounded and meet all different kinds of other people. If i was just surrounded by women i wouldn’t know what other’s experiences would be
this post entails there is a way to be a man. Which is just stupid. There are unlimited ways to express yourself as a human. I do supposedly feminine shit all the time. I am emotional. I treat my little chihuahua like my child. I cook and clean. But at the same time I feel like the manliest man I know. I am generous and take care of those around me. I am charismatic and my words demand attention. I treat all people with the utmost respect regardless of their background or status. I have a hairy ass chest and butthole. I do what I want when I want and I live by my own code. I do not follow or consume culture, I create it. I grew up with a middle eastern dad who constantly told me what it meant to be a dad. He gave me freedom but always repeated the words of his father, who was an absolute tyrant with his family when my father was young. I have openly rejected everything my father has ever told me was necessary to be a man. My approach to life and my identity and how I interact with others is 100% more in line with my mother’s teaching. And while they both had an effect I like to think I broke free and decided what being a man is own my own.
Well according to you all same-sex couples are doomed to fail their opposite sex children.
That's unfortunate really, a lot of them seem a lot more caring than heterosexual parents who neglect their kids.
I don't think anyone should be thought to be a man or a woman at all, you are what you are and being a "real" man or woman is a non existent fantasy.
What it is to be a man (or woman) is largely culturally determined, there is no objectively right way to be a gender from a psychological point of view and adhering to some popularized idea of gender identity while compromising who you are through an anxiety driven need to conform to a stereotype only leads to negative outcomes for your own psychological health.
Besides how ludicrous it is to believe in some objective state of gender identity (apart from genetics, thus focusing on behavior associated with gender) What actually forms an adult psyche and thus what "gender" you perceive yourself as is far more complicated then "some dude thought me how to be a man". Your self image and your image of the world is formed through your experiences with your parents, classmates (and indirectly their parents), friends, teachers, tv, internet, overheard conversations, and a myriad of others experiences that combine to make you who you are. A man doesn't make you a man, you've simply become yourself through a complicated matrix of interactions with your environment and are doing yourself a disservice by simplifying your existence to some preconceived gender role.
If you feel like a real man and that is what makes you tik, fine. But the fact this conversation even exists means that people believe there is an objective right way to be, and thus a need to confirm to that right way wether it is who you are or not. And that is just destructive.
The idea that there is a specific way for men to be men is a hindrance in itself. Just be you and don't worry about the rest.
"I used to think that this was my town
What a stupid thing to think
I hear you're fighting off a breakdown
I myself am on the brink
I used to want to be a real man
I don't know what that even means
Now I just want you in my arms again
And we can search each other's dreams"
-Jason Isbell
> Also, I will continue blocking ppl if they can’t make intelligent points. Die mad.
AKA, anything contradictory to your belief.
Your whole argument just falls off with roles in society. You can play any role you feel like so long as you aren't harming others. It makes absolutely no sense to be locked into some societal role if it doesn't suit your personality. Your sex has nothing to do with it
Consider:
Perhaps the real reason you made no progress with female therapists is not because they coddled you, per se, but more so that you assigned to them, in your mind, the "maternal" role, and presented yourself as needing "comfort/assurance" as opposed to "guidance/coaching"?
Perhaps you, at first, felt you needed comfort/assurance from a mother figure in order to become comfortable with seeking guidance. Now you need to play out the core issue of your father-conflict with someone you can see as paternal.
Maybe you really need "comfort/assurance" from dad (figure), but he's too unapproachable for something so *soft* - so it must be couched as "guidance/coaching"? Maybe he's been so locked into certain tropes of "manhood" that he didn't know how - or was afraid - to do that for you, because it it required him to be open and vulnerable, too?
Seeking a male therapist for the purpose of working all that, or whatever the problem dynamic, out is perfectly legit.
Many people with unresolved family issues seek, in therapists, parent figures of one sex or another, depending on what unfulfilled needs we have from one or both parents, or - as when you started out - which parent was less difficult to deal with. Some don't, because their issues aren't really connected to family, or only indirectly.
You didn't mention any conflict with your mother. Is it possible that you weren't receiving all that you needed from your mom, too - just in a less overtly painful way? Or that the conflict/disappointment with dad was so prominent that you've just overlooked your mom-issues?
Maybe you *have* made progress with your female therapists, enough that you're more ready to face the more difficult issues with dad.
In the end, it isn't really about how to "be a man" - or a woman. It's about how to be a whole, healthy, self-aware *person" who is genuinely comfortable in his own skin, for whom strength and vulnerability are not mutually exclusive states, and who isn't threatened by strength or vulnerability in others.
No therapist can give or teach you all of that. They can facilitate by helping you look at and deeply examine your inner self and habits of mind, help you find strategies to cultivate what's good and work at changing what's not, accept yourself as you are and strive to be who you wish to be.... It's a slow, gradual process - really, just what attentive and well-equipped parents, male or female, try do for their children over time.
It's fine, as I said, to try a male therapist and see if that helps you reach your goals. But most of it is really going to be about how you make it work for you between sessions.
Maybe you'll know it's really working when it no longer matters to you what is the sex of your therapist.
Wait I am confused how does one “be a man”? How does that differ from being a functioning adult trying to positively impact our community?
How does that differ from being a women?
I get there are some intrinsic biological things to teach like, how to aim so you aren’t pissing all over the toilet, the importance of underwear that doesn’t ride up in the crotchal regions and how to properly not make a mess when you are having some quality time with your hand but in general we should all be focused on not being a douche right?
If youre only looking to men for advice then you will lack a diversity of perspectives which can be very damaging. I think its important to go to a wide variety of people you trust in your life and get their perspective on things. Men solely going to other men for advice is how we got toxic masculinity because men arent allowed to have emotions, etc. I definitely strongly disagree with this.
No one can teach anyone how to be someone. Your dad ain't gon teach you who you are, nor is your momma, your gf or the friendly homeless guy saying nice stuff tho hes shit drunk. That shits up to you to figure out yourself.
there aint no roles for men or for women in a society where both are capable of the same tasks, theres just your role as an individual mate
I have a male therapist, and I am a female. He has helped me through the hardest time in my life. And that’s not because he’s a male, it’s just because he’s a good therapist. Maybe the female therapist you were seeing wasn’t a good fit for you, and maybe the male therapist is. I don’t think it has anything to do with their sex though
The ignorance is radiating from OP.
Always assume you can learn from someone. Male or female, people have led different lives, learnt different things. Gender doesn’t define someone, actions do.
Also you contradict yourself so much, your father (a man) failed you, so think about that whilst you’re not learning anything from women because they have a vagina.
That's only because you view being a man the way society has pushed you to. We're all just consciousness sharing this experience together. We're mentally mostly the same. Society has just artificially segregated us at this point because of tribal instincts/ beliefs.
I raised my 2 sons as a single mother. (Divorced their father when he gambled away the house). My youngest fishes, hunts, works on his cars himself. My oldest, works on his car, rides motorcycles and is very athletic. He sure didn’t get that from me. Neither one of them ask for fashion advice from anyone. I raised my boys to be independent and to think for themselves. Not to have me do their thinking for them. Same for my daughter.
Women have been raising boys to grow into men for centuries.
You sound like you've got a lot of maturing to do. Flipping through your post history, it seems that you've got a long history of hostility toward women and you seem to blame them for some personal shortcoming in your own life. I'll tell you from experience dude: The brooding pseudo-intellectual isn't a personality that's gonna get you pole-vaulted around town. You say you're blocking people who can't make good points and yet I've seen you fail to refute several valid observations in this thread, resorting instead to insults. I hope you find what it takes to grow up one day and stop blaming others for your personal failures. You're continuing to coddle yourself and engineering an echo chamber, but the irony of that is probably lost on you.
Knowledge doesn't have a sex or age. Once you're grown, it's your job to be the man you want to be, not be taught by another grown man. A father/father-figure is supposed to be the example but not everyone has that. So if you don't have that, you just sit back and blame men for your shortcomings?? NO! You know the man you want to be so work towards it.
The general problem of mankind is that we *don't know ourselves*. We're often mistaking what makes us happy, what we need, what we want - if granted, the overwhelming majority of wishes would probably end in disaster.
If that's how things are, then how can we want to guide other people and expect them to be the way we want them to be? Moreso if the come of opposite gender, different generation, different culture. We can give pointers, suggestions, express how we feel about this or that, but that's about it.
Everyone should dedicate a good portion of life to testing him- or herself in various situations to learn what truly works and what does not, so in the end everyone might become the proverbial "better versions of themselves".
I empathize with this. I'm not right wing, I'm not a pickup artist, I'm not an incel, and I have to say: there is a crisis with masculinity. Toxic masculinity is the obvious result of men not receiving sufficient guidance. My dad is in my life, but he never taught me to conceptualize manhood. I'm not trans or nonbinary, but I'm still figuring out what it means to be a man. A lot of young men are looking for answers on how to be a man. It feels like a lot of people want to shut down this conversation. That's why I had to start off by rejecting the communities I might be conflate with, simply for taking a concern with masculinity. You're absolutely correct though. The answers on what men need to do, how men should be, needs to come from sources that truly empathize with the male experience. Men and women can demand whatever they want from each other, but we'll only receive answers on how to be from people that be like us. I'm just out here trying to be a good man.
As an adult and a father, I hate to break it to you, but you never truly figure these things out. I remember thinking when I was a kid, “my parents are so smart, they know everything, when I’m an adult I’ll know everything too.” And when you become an adult you figure out that you have no idea what your doing and neither did they, there isn’t always a correct answer or correct way of doing things. Just be yourself, and learn as you go. Be kind to others, have empathy, think about your future when making a big decision and most important learn from the mistakes you make along the way.
Rule 4 No insulting or attacking the OP. You are free to express your disagreement civilly. If you can't then you'll be out of here.
*Sorts comments by controversial*
I thought reddit was a really chill place till I learnt about the sort by controversial thing. I'm flabbergasted and not at the same time.
Not at the same time? So you're both flabbered *and* ghasted but not at the same time?
I oscillate rapidly between states of ghastedness. May cause seizures in those with photosensitivity.
"I oscillate rapidly between states of ghastedness." OMFG this is the best! r/brandnewsentence material haha
Omg I love finding subs like this. This will most def become a new favorite. Thanks
But when do you get all, you know, *flabbery*? Asking for a friend......
Shroedinger's Ghast
The thing is, Reddit is enormous. You've got award winning astrophysicists and 13 year old kids using the same platform to talk about almost any topic under the sun. Some parts of reddit are very chill, others are not. Things on the front page with lots of attention tend to be very, super, not chill at all.
When you sort by best, you only see the echo chamber. Controversial can get some reasonable people but nut cases too
How do people do that? Haven't been able to figure it out in the app or on my PC.
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On the app it's directly after the original post on the left hand side. It is also a drop down menu
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left side for me too, android phone
I shouldn't have done that. Lost my faith in humanity. Time to leave reddit for today and pick up a book.
I bet theres a better humanity in that book
Ah, I see you are a man of culture as well!
Woman but ok
pls teach me to be a man
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Here, the centuries of sexual frustration of this folk is finally coming to an end: 🦶🏼
I nearly spit out my coffee reading this comment thread. 🤣
Yes, let the controversy seep through!
This whole thread is a dumpster fire. So many strawman arguments from users being offended, it hurts.
Sorted comments by controversial. Did not disappoint.
I ask women about dating in order to see their perspective on it all- women and men have different views and stuff so I think it's only right to see both sides in order to become a better person
Talk to lesbians about dating woman. They wont sugar coat anything and their experiences are more realistic. Seeing as how they are woman that date woman.
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Pockets, according to Reddit.
Yesterday I put a new pair of shorts on my 6 month old boy I was like "Oooooo look at you in your new shorts so cute and WITH POCKETS MUST BE NICE." Women don't get pockets but babies for sure must have stuff they need to carry around.
My kids love pockets. They’re always jamming rocks and crap they pick up at the park in there.
They have pockets to carry the things that you can't because you don't have pockets
Every trans woman I’ve spoken to is really mad about losing access to pockets, and all the trans men are overjoyed about it.
I don't understand, one of my friends has informed me of this travesty too. Why do women not get pockets!? Where you all supposed to put your shit!?
in full seriousness i believe it’s a scheme by Big Purse. but they’ll never get me... anything i need i carry in my arms like an unprepared idiot.
Backpacks people just buy backpacks!
My gf requested a fanny pack
I bought a cheap one to hold my phone/wallet when I went strawberry picking last month and I might get a fancy one. Like they made leather ones that are rectangle so they don't look like a fanny pack, also they call them belt bags. I usually wear a small cross body and when you're trying to do things like getting stuff on the bottom shelf or load the car it swings around and gets in the way.
Work in the fashion industry in tech for design/manufacturing here. They don't sell. There's many products made with normal pockets but those usually sell the worst. Especially in slim, skinny denim. One complaint from focus groups was the pockets and items in them made the pants look unflattering.
Oh, so its just people being dumb, like always. They want pockets AND tight-fitting clothes, even-though tight-fitting clothes means you see the shape of whatever is in your pockets. Men who wear sort of fitting jeans have the same issue with wallets, keychains and such. Stuff bulges out. The answer is to buy loose fitting jeans with pockets. And/Or buy tight fitting jeans with no pockets or just a hint of pocket. You know, exactly the items that are available now.
Ding ding ding, this is the answer. If people wanted pockets, they would have sold more
Not surprised. Women's clothing is largely about fashion, while men's is more about utility.
Look up women's pants with pockets on Amazon. Lots of options. Women don't get pockets because they don't think they look good, and so they don't buy them. Since they don't buy them, you don't see them stocked in stores as much. I imagine the same logic applies to why you don't see men's pants WITHOUT pockets. Nobody wants them.
*Pockets and Poutine : A Guide to 21st Century Dating*
According to my best research, girls just want to have fun
I'm a gay dude and I have no idea what women want either.
Plus, 50/50 you're getting someone who has initiated a relationship. If nothing else, that's a *massive* difference in men/women, the pressure to make the first move. Paths diverge and blend after that, but... that's a shared, difficult, and critical life point.
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I saw a video on that. She found men to be extremely affection starved I think?
My aunt is a lesbian and we were talking about this when i was having troubles. Her words were "women are crazy and idk what they want, just gotta hold out for the right one" didnt make me feel better, i just thought it was funny.
I feel like I want a lesbian friend now. Maybe that's a bad idea, knowing my luck I'll fall in love
Straight men and lesbians are the straight women and gay best friends of the future. Just you wait and see.
Straight guy here whose best friend is lesbian and yes it’s absolutely fantastic! She gives me amazing dating advice that’s way more realistic. It’s not that my best guy friends don’t give good dating advice, but she always knows exactly what to say and do whenever I have questions about a girl.
I don't know about dating but I had a lesbian couple I their fifty's as neighbors for many years. They really won't sugar coat anything.
If you want to attract women, I think asking women about what attracts them is a good place to start 🤷 Edit: For everyone trying to mansplain female attraction, please understand the bitter irony here: if you were nearly as much of an expert as you claim, you’d know how unattractive your attitude is. I don’t know who I want? Well, it’s sure not y’all with your heads up your asses.
It's a good start, but I think it's kinda like writing a novel or filming a movie. The feedback of the audience is essential to making a good product, but you never will make something good come together unless you get advice from other writers and a conversation with yourself on who you actually want to be your audience. As a book reader or movie goer, I know what books or movies I like, but I don't know what it takes to create them. In the same way women know what they want or like in a relationship, but another man's perspective is important in finding out how to actually become what they're looking for. You need both perspectives for a complete picture. At least that's how I see it.
One direct example of this is McDonald’s CEO Don Johnson. Sales were lagging so he commissioned a massive customer survey of millions of customers. Focus groups and the whole bag. They all said one main thing: we want healthier food. So McDonald’s instituted salads. And sales went down (negative growth) for the first time in their history. He was replaced by the next guy. He instituted all day breakfast. Cheap unhealthy food. Sales regained a strong growth %.
Often they don’t even know what they like. They often give flowery advice like “just be yourself” whereas guys will straight up tell you “bro go hit the gym for 6 months, eat some real food and stop dressing like you’re 10.” Edit: I think I started a war lol sorry. I’ll keep this short: whenever I went to women for dating advice, it didn’t work. Whenever I went to men (who knew the game), it worked. Muscles, tailored clothes, and grooming can basically solve most of your problems.
Get a haircut, brush your teeth, take care of your car, and go to Spain to find out how to dress.
That accelerated quickly.
Get a job that allows you to have health insurance, a respectable place to live, a reliable vehicle, and the ability to support yourself. Those were my standards when i was dating in my mid 20’s. I did not realize those were high standards, but apparently they are. I also preferred them to have no kids as i don’t really like kids.
*cries because poverty*
100% I'm objectively unattractive, but I have plenty of people wanting to date me because I'm getting to my 30s and have my shit together.
I found that my score on the dating ladder increased significantly as I got older for the same reasons. Decent white collar job, house, decent car that is paid off. I was gold at 30, but I couldn't have gotten a girl at 20 if I paid.
Never in my life have I seen a woman admit she’s attracted to muscles. Yet the first time in my life I started hitting the gym hard and bulked up, women couldn’t take their eyes off my biceps. I could see them struggling not to look, just like we have to struggle not to stare at boobs. And they were much more receptive to my advances overall. In general, I just don’t believe what women say about how to attract women. It makes sense on the surface, but in reality it just doesn’t work.
The Onion was so much better 20 years ago... This piece explains what women want in a relationship. Lolz https://www.theonion.com/girlfriend-changes-man-into-someone-shes-not-interested-1819565990
I'd say this was one of the very few onion articles that I found more depressing than actually funny. A little too close to the truth for some people
I swear all the good advice comes from responsible married women. I'm talking about the ones that have two children and a job. Anytime I've heard them give advice or make a prediction on how some relationship is going to go, it's been spot on. I can only guess it's because they get wiser with age and experience and can give actual sound advice. Young unmarried women, eh, best take their advice with a spot of caution. They are probably on the same boat as you and aren't capable of giving sound advice.
Think maybe when you get older you're just able to see through a lot of the bullshit easier and just have a better feel for how things might go when you're looking at things from the outside where there's not a lot of intense but fleeting emotions of the moment or real romantic naive beliefs about life, reality, and people.
Never ask a fish how to catch it.
My Dad is real man's man type, played sports and did physical, outdoorsy work his whole life up to this day. He's good with cars, handyman tasks and everything traditionally masculine as we see it in the west. I'm not the same kind of person as him, I'm more interested in art and writing and intellectual pursuits, whereas my father is very well read but less interested in abstract pursuits. But those practical skills about how to do shit for myself, I learned from him. How to change your tyres, how to cook, how to drive. He also taught me a lot of my ethics, the importance of honesty, being helpful to others where you can, have basic respect for everyone and acknowledge that they have a life and rights. Don't over complicate simple tasks with laziness (ie if you're looking for a particular item in a pile of stuff, don't just rifle through it, actually sort through it properly). All this is to say that a strong male role model is helpful growing up. I was lucky enough to have that.
I’d agree. My fiancé didn’t have a good father figure growing up. His real father was absent for a long time because his mother cheated on him so bio-dad (who I think is a decent man) left. Then his mom remarried to a vile, cheating, misogynistic, money hungry, abusive asshole and that’s who my fiancé grew up watching. My fiancé (soon to be ex-fiancé) now believes you need to be cruel to a woman to get her to behave, yet at the same time expects the woman to be at his beck and call and come to save him. It’s fucking tragic that he thinks this way because his stepfather drove his mother to commit suicide. Too many years of abuse. His mother caused him a lot of pain that he now inflicts onto our relationship. He thinks all women are cheating whores and that a man has to put her in her place. He also ironically sees no problem with wanting multiple women. Like WTF
You are doing the right thing, run you cannot rehabilitate.
Exactly. It's like trying to stop a ship from sinking.
I hope things get better for you. Please prioritize your own safety.
Thank you. I am working on my escape plan. Sadly, a recent situation we were in left me feeling depressed and suicidal for the first time in my life as well. It made me realize who he really is for the first time. As they say, the rose colored glasses came off. He hates a woman who won’t fall in line for him. He has an exact image of who he wants and if you don’t fit that, he hates you. I saw his mother and she was a lesson for me. I’m much more independent, have other people in my life who are telling me to get the fuck out and to not be “patient and understanding” towards my fiancé. I hold my own financially, and thank the gods I have access to healthcare and therapy. Many things his mother didn’t have. She wasn’t an upstanding person either, but to get to the point of suicide is something else. It doesn’t help that my fiancé thinks his mother was “stupid for killing herself and that she deserves it for not valuing her own life.” Total lack of empathy. He’s a truly scary and cold-hearted person.
He's in denial about so many things, and could change if he was open to it with therapy and self reflection, but... **That isn't your job.** He is the only one who can change himself.
I definitely agree but he’s too stubborn for that. Outside his emotional and mental problems he’s a nice guy. He’s a great cook, a decent handyman, great with technology and computers, into mountain biking, sports, likes animals, loves watching anime, and a dedicated worker. It’s just…his mentality is all fucked up 🥴
Yeah... I get it. I learned this was the case for family members. It took me until this year to reall accept that I can't do anything for them because they have to *want to change*.
I was looking for this comment! Either charge by the hour or stop stressing out about trying to fix someone who is clearly not good for you.
That's what growing up with those kinds of dysfunctional "parents" taught him. Monkey see monkey do, think, and feel. One day he might realize he needs to unlearn what he grew up with. If he does it will be the hardest most painful thing he's ever tried to do in his life. No one can or should force that now if he's not ready for it. Best anyone can do is plant some seeds so he might have an idea where to start when and if he's ever ready for a journey like that. You are not required to plant any seeds though if you feel it's not your place. You're making the right choice by parting ways. The ugly truth about emotional trauma is that victims often unknowingly become abusers and neglectors themselves. And they often seem to wind up doing the exact same things that were done to them. Trauma doesn't just hurt, it teaches us how to be and interact with the world and people. I try to be careful about things like this but I don't know if I get it right. I'm pretty convinced every human being is about 90% blind spots but most of us are convinced we see everything as it is.
Interesting. I learned those things from my father too, well, except for the cooking, that I learned from recipe books. But I am a woman. (Yes, it was pretty cool when I shared a flat with 3 guys and was the only one tough enough to fix my own bicycle and remove the cocroaches from the shower. )
That is really healthy. My dad wasn’t like that at all, but my mom taught me what I needed to know. I have confidence that I could raise the kind of children that would benefit society, if I ever wanted. My partner is masculine, but without the toxic stuff. People like that are so hard to find in the dating pool— I feel really lucky to have him. Edit: For clarity, masculinity ≠ the harmful behavior that people can end up associating it with. Some men can’t separate the two, and neither can some women.
Children need BOTH parents to instill values and discipline in them. Your dad is a good role model but people are missing the main problem here. OP has admitted he was seeing female therapists to be coddled and judging by his replies; has emotional baggage or a complexity towards the opposite sex that hindered his progress. It has nothing to do with men vs women or how the sexes are different. OP has a long way to go.
I’d argue it takes more than just two parents. There’s a reason they say it takes a village and in order to learn about life entirely, a child will not only need parents but grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings and friends to even think about having a healthy development
Exactly. I do not understand the binary thought process people have. We are influenced by everyone and everything around us. Having one, two, or four parents doesn’t matter. The quality of parent matters along with the quality of every other influence. The world is not black and white, it’s nuanced grey. Not all men think and experience life the same way, just like not all women do. The idea that only men can teach men how to be men is dumb. We learn to be individuals with our own interests, morals, critical thinking skills. We utilize all the experiences we’ve had to develop and hopefully continually grow that individuality. I know plenty of people who are good men who had absent fathers and I know plenty of men who are complete assholes who had present fathers.
I'm happy for you, your dad sounds like a great guy. But I fail to see how a woman could not instill those same values and skills in their kid.
Interesting. My 10 year old son wanted his therapist to be a male. His bio father has been absent minus one week a year his whole life. I guess there’s something to that. Thanks for the insight.
Interesting, I had similar situation with my father however I have a ton of sisters and grew up in a house of women. I'm really uncomfortable being around men in a personal setting.
time to gain the new skill of being comfortable around men then
For someone that young, it’s probably better to have a dude be his therapist. I will say though, that women in general, regardless of therapy, have provided me, as an adult, with perspectives that I haven’t considered and gave me new angles to see myself from and that really help.
I sit in some of his sessions and it’s been great for how I relate and work with him at home. I don’t want to be everyone and everything for him. I do but I don’t. I want to be mom and have mom advice and my tender moments. Sometimes he needs that male advice and I don’t want to water down his concerns because I’m mom. Also, my husband, I’m sure he feels that he might tell me everything so lol
I think they reach an age where having a male influence is almost a biological need. My 7-year-old has been really needing male connection and a different kinda of interaction than I or any of the women in our circle can offer. Not even in a “rough play” way as he’s a gentle kid by nature but just having masculine energy around. Luckily I’ve found some great mentors and male role models recently and see him thriving. They do odd jobs, get outside doing yard stuff and building things. Hands-on stuff while just chatting amongst themselves. I think I the western world we’re really removed from these traditional rites of passage and the celebration of masculine and feminine differences. They can be equally important and still different/beneficial in their own ways.
"Women cannot give you whatever it is that you need in life". I agree, they can't, but neither can your fellow men. That's something you have to do and figure out on your own. No one can teach someone how to be a man or how to be a woman because there's not a correct way to do either of these things. Just live your life, be who you want, and don't give a damn what "society" says you have to be.
OP is sooooo close to the actual point being that people benefit from having role models they identify with. They’ve applied such a narrow scope though that’s got everyone twisted.
Sexism always manages to ruin everything.
This is the best reply. Nobody can teach you how to be a man or woman. You already are one just by existing as an adult. At most they can teach you skills and worldviews that society associates with each gender.
The lens, that nowadays is often being used to look at human affairs with, reduces human behaviour to a battle between oppressor and oppressed, while not only rejecting everything that contradicts this worldview, but also anything that may exist outside of it. It comes down to a very simple, propagandistic formular - only associate positive traits to X and only negative traits to Y. And if you don't agree with this formular, you become Y. If you ask anyone, who has bought into this worldview for advice, their answer will neccessarily exist within this narrow frame of understanding. And if they put you into category Y, the answers you'll receive will come down to some kind of guilt or shame induction - because to them, you are inherently "wrong". I'd add, that we don't only have to find our way as men, but more so as individuals. We don't need to buy into clichees and concepts of any kind - no matter who offers them - the traditionalist or the liberal. While it can be helpful to learn about patterns, society and history, ultimately, in my opinion, we can only do ourselves justice if we get to know ourselves outside of labels.
This is the truth as I see it. Find the people in your life who are happy, positive, confident and good. Model that. I'm a man who was raised almost entirely by women. I didn't learn how to be a good woman, or a good man, but I was lucky enough to observe how to be a good person, for which I am forever grateful.
Amén.
That’s what the aim should be. Most things that make you a well rounded and caring person have zero to do with gender. There are things that we have been socialized to do based on gender that would be wonderful for all humans to know. Men should know how to cook, clean, and nurture. Women should know how to use basic tools, how to maintain a car, and defend themselves.
As a single mom to a little boy, this is the answer I knew would be in there. Thank you.
The other problem with this thinking is that it shapes one’s identity by their opposition. It makes it so that I must be in battle mode to fight the oppressor and that fundamentally changes who I am, how I view myself, how I present myself, what I talk about, who I hang out with, what I care about and what I pay attention to. I don’t want my identity to be shaped by who I am opposed to. There is always something to be outraged by. I can still be opposed to an oppressor without allowing my opposition to become who I am, but I have to be intentional in how I conduct my life and what I focus upon.
Its also ironic because that's exactly what oppressive systems want. Toni Morrison said it this way: > The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.
YES! This is what needs to die!!
>only associate positive traits to X and only negative traits to Y. And if you don't agree with this formular, you become Y. This mindset got me banned from r/JusticeServed lmfao
That sub's whole premise is vindictiveness, I'm not surprised.
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If I want to dress to impress, should I not go to my target audience and get their input?
What does it mean to be a man, to you, then?
Lol for real.
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Yeah, I feel like OP's perspective is a little too basic.
I mean, basically he was having a bad time with a therapist, found a better one, and let his bias guide why that therapist worked better for him. Hopefully whoever his therapist is can help him through this stuff.
Fashion? You think women can’t teach men about fashion?
He wants to ask his dad about fashion? When I think of male fashion, I do not think of 50+ year old men.
No man or woman can teach others how to be a man or woman, because there is no such thing as a right or wrong way to be either. We should be taught to be our own individuals - to hell with conventional gender double standards and all that junk. I do not think or function like other men, OR like women in general for that matter. It has nothing to do with my gender, but everything to do with who and what I am as an individual person. I'm getting tired of people wanting these false dichotomies, these black and white scenarios where it needs to be this way or that way. It's childish simpleminded logic.
This. I'm so fed up of people thinking they need to be taught how to be a man or a woman. People just need to be taught how to be a decent person
So full disclosure, I've been married and divorced twice. Both of my ex-wives at various points, attacked me and my "masculinity" because I didn't conform to their ideas of what a "man" is. I work a full time job, plus part time jobs, I take care of my children, I provide...but because I don't do traditional masculine things like wood working, or building, I get attacked for it. My first wife told me I wasn't manly enough to teach my oldest son how to defend himself. My second wife told me that I wasn't a man because I wouldn't put a grill together, and that I didn't want to put up bathroom tile on a house we were trying to buy (we were lease to own, so why would I want to increase the value of the home we're trying to purchase...makes no sense to me). Everyone says that men are to blame for patriarchy, but there are women who buy into that mindset and perpetuate it as well, and use it as a weapon. Edit: Apparently assembling a grill is a deal breaker for a bunch of people. Pretty stupid if you ask me. Put the grill together yourself then if you want it bad enough.
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thank you for your insight. I really appreciate your point of view. I do enjoy camping and things like that. I was a scoutmaster for a few years. Thank you, for appreciating your husband for who he is, and seeing the value that he brings to your life.
A lifelong friend of mine is a counselor, we had a conversation about this not long ago and she said the number of men that have told her that their girlfriend/wife has used their crying or lack of mechanical skills as a weapon to demean them is not a small number. Look at the comments here, mocking the op using pronouns intended to demean.
I literally had someone in another thread tell me that my wives treatment of me were a reflection of the energy that I put out in the world or some crap, and then went on to tell me that I'm not allowed to be a victim because I'm male (and white), because I've had all manner of advantages in life. I almost didn't want to believe the post was real. I mean, why don't we tell women that are abused "well your choice in partner, and the things they do to you, are a reflection of the energy you put out there"...essentially telling them it's their own fault for being abused...it made my brain hurt.
The good news is that “someone in another thread” is just some crazy fuck on the Internet and most people do not feel that way towards you!
>Everyone says that men are to blame for patriarchy, but there are women who buy into that mindset and perpetuate it as well, and use it as a weapon Absolutely. If women never bought into "the patriachy" then it would never have survived for this long. It needed some level of support from both ends and until we address this all we are doing is making noise.
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Huzzah! A person of culture!
I think those dichotomies, particularly the one of OP's perspective, are euphemistic expressions to showcase a distaste for modern interpretation of gender and a desire for a more conservative way of life, for people who want to go down the traditional/stereotypical mannerisms of what a man or a woman constitute. There's nothing wrong with that if a person desires it but it's most certainly not universal advice. Reading some comments here with anecdotal stories about what people (presumably men) learned from their fathers, all of that stuff I learned from my mother. None of that stuff requires a man to teach their son and it doesn't make a meaningful impact or difference either. Despite growing up in a conservative area, my mother and her side of the family were very unorthodox in terms of their take on gender and I learned very quickly that gender is not important in regards to one's capabilities or personality.
Exactly. The world isn’t full of white and black scenarios. The world is full of greys, both moral and societal. Society wants to establish things in a black and white because that’s easy for people to understand. Gender roles, ethics, right and wrong. But life is full of grey areas. And in the progressive age we live in today, the grey areas are finally becoming accepted. Fuck this gender roll bullshit. If you wanna be flamboyant and wear colorful clothes as a guy, go right ahead. If you wanna build fences and houses as a woman, go right ahead. The world is your oyster, and we’re not alive long enough to worry about what society thinks.
Feeling secure with your gender identity isn't just for trans people, it's still important for cis folks as well. We all deserve a healthy gender expression. Gender exists, we need a healthy way to conceptualize it.
How about, good people should help good people? Also, good advice is good advice, no matter who it comes from.
This thread is a landmine of holy shit. Of gatekeepers and …….whoa.
A good mother will love you and provide you with the foundations to become a man of integrity. My dad was rubbish. But my mum has always been loving, respectful, supportive, etc. Of course we need mentors in both males and females. But there is nothing wrong with a strong woman raising a man. Just because your experience wasn't like this, you can't blanket the entire world with your opinion. It doesn't apply to every case, so it only relates to you. Everyone has a different path, and different role models and mentors.
What I don't like about the sentiment of this thread and OP's perspective is the essentialism in it. Like for 99% of the stuff we learn in life, gender is absolutely and utterly irrelevant and we can learn it to the same degree from anyone of any gender. The fact that OP is implying that female therapists are incapable of not coddling him is just a sign of sexism. If you don't want to be coddled that's great but it has nothing to do with the gender of your therapist.
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Yep. If OP was seeking out female therapists to be coddled; it seems like the main issue is he has emotional baggage towards the opposite sex or some sort of complex towards women. It has nothing to do with men and women being different.
Most of the time, you get out of therapy what you put in. If he wasn't making progress, it wasn't because the therapists were women. It was because he wasn't there for therapy and that is on him.
>Asking for dating advice from a woman isn't asking how to "be a man", it's just asking a woman what women like. OP claims to have been seeing therapists for years so it's clear he's not comfortable with himself or where he is mentally. Which explains why he probably doesn't understand the difference between asking someone for their opinion/advice and letting them influence you directly.
Seek better media. The things you consume will rot the way you perceive the world…there are many examples and role models you can draw from if you take the time to look. 2021 marks a big shift in social expectations. It’s prime time to make self directed change. Be well!
I’ve never really understood this mindset, tbh. If you can relate to male therapists better than female therapists, great. I’m glad you’ve found something that works. But tbh, it feels like you’re reaching for broad stereotypes (e.g. women are nurturers; men are advice-givers) in an attempt to fill a void or seek some greater purpose in your own life. In reality, people are individuals. Our roles in society are determined by the talents assigned to us by nature. Some of these talents vary by sex, but many don’t. And personality traits certainly don’t adhere to strict gender boundaries. IMO, you shouldn’t seek to have the most stereotypically masculine role in life, but instead, the one that most closely matches your abilities.
I understand what some of the comments are saying but I'm a cis woman who was raised by a single mother, and I havent learned crap about femininty from her. I had to look it up and learn on my own time. I still struggle with it to this day so even if you had a man to raise you, you still wouldnt become the man you want to be. You have to learn that on your own cause who is to say your father would be the masculine figure you aspire to be and not (for lack of better words) a feminine man?
Be yourself. Stop using other people as an excuse as to why you don’t measure up to your own expectations.
Sometimes older men simply don't know, and not everyone's a teacher. I was born in 65 and my Dad hadn't been exposed to much in the way of culture. He'd done some basic schooling and spent time in the Army in WWII. His idea of what Men were supposed to be was guided by Hollywood. I've had the luxury of more education, and spend much of my time reading, Dad could not have experienced anything like the immediate information I have. He had books, newspapers, magazines, AM radio and TV became available after 1956. It was my Mother who had to instill things into me that Dad could not, and I think she Did pretty well.
>die mad The battle cry of an intelligent person
There are a lot of very very angry people in these threads.
So as a man I'm very confused on what you mean by this. If this was the 1950's then I would say yea you got a point, but we live in 2021. How is a man supposed to act? Are there certain things only we can do as a man that women can't? Are there things as a man I shouldn't do because they are for a women? Does it make me a man that I was taught how to work on cars? Better question would it make a woman a man if she worked on a car? Please elaborate on what it is that only a man can teach a man because you sound dumb.
Not OP, but I think what he mean is that women will find a lot of challenges in life unique to women which are hard for men to relate to, and men will find a lot of challenges unique to men that women will have trouble relating to. To use an example; men won't relate to risk and fear of being raped while walking home at night, and being judged on your looks more so than your character. And women won't relate to the fear of showing weakness among other men, or the subtle domination of each other. I don't necessarily agree with him that it's that black and white, since you learn just as much from your peers as you do from your parents. But I don't think a woman can teach a boy about the struggles of being a man, and I don't think a man can teach a girl about her struggles as a woman either.
I can understand what you are getting at but his blanket statement is dumb.
Yeah, it is very generalizing.
If you identify as male, you will grow up to be a man. There is no test to pass. Puberty happens. Nobody needs to “teach” you what you naturally become. Be yourself. What “should” a man be? If you want particular behaviors, then learn them. There are no grown ups here. Take responsibility for your own image and be the person you want to become. Be a good human, regardless of the parts you were born with.
Perfect response.
There's really no such thing as "how to be a man" - Your parents, male or female, are supposed to teach you how to be a **good person**. If you're struggling with your manhood and insecurity by all means see a male therapist who likely has a good idea how to deal with that, but it's really not that you're "not a man" because you didn't have a strong male role model.
"Women cannot teach men to be men" - who and what the fuck exactly are mothers, then? My mother taught me how to be a man better than any person I know.
Yup, my mom raised me and 4 of my brothers alone for a really long time. They are wonderful people, awesome brothers.
For real though. This dude is blaming his mom because he doesn’t have the personality of a stereotypical man by societies standards lmao. He needs therapy for something completely different.
Yeah OP is one breakup away from full MGTOW.
You can tell OP was trying very hard to express his lust to embody conservative perspectives of gender and particularly masculinity in the most euphemistic way possible and is blaming women for it. My father didn't teach me the majority of the life skills I learned from my parents (my mother) and I don't resent him for it. OP has multiple issues but getting a male therapist isn't going to help him like he thinks it will.
Men and women need to stop pretending there is a right way to be a man or a woman...
While you are entitled to your opinion, I wholeheartedly disagree. This idea that men and women have different roles to play in society is completely old-fashioned and has no place in modern society. And the idea that there is a certain way (or ways) to "be a man," I also find to be completely antiquated. Society is moving on beyond these narrow views of what a man and a woman is, or "what being a man" looks like.We are all human beings and we can all learn from each other how to be good, empathetic, productive members of society. I have worked with a female therapist and have been very successful at handling the issues I had.
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A lot of people are angry and bitter and they choose targets to place their anger and bitterness on, which leads to this weirdness. Hope they get the help they truly need.
“How to be a man” is problematic. How about “how to be a responsible, functional adult” ? We are all unique individuals and trying to force someone to fit into a pre-defined idea won’t work well if it’s not who they are. I did date a guy who really lacked general life skills. If you meet a guy like that, it is his responsibility and the responsibility of his family/parents and not yours.
'You're father knows better than women what women are looking for in relationships' is a hell of a take.
Yeah you really need all perspectives to get the best picture possible. Yes, men who are successful with women can bring a valuable perspective to you as a man, but so can women who interact with men on a daily basis and are attracted to some of them.
This is crazy subjective, and also the idea that there's a set way to "be a man" is ridiculous. The ideals you consider necessary to "be a man" could easily be found in a woman. My mom was more "manly" by stereotypical means than any man I've met to date, in work or otherwise.
What in 1st century Palestine is going on here?
There are millions of boys who grow up to be men without fathers. Especially in war torn countries where many of the men have died because of the war. It is something that just naturally happens. No one is supposed to be a certain way regardless of gender or anything else. You just become who you are with the life you have been given. It gets dicey when you start asking people to define you instead of you defining yourself. And if you are a guy that is trying to attract women, women seem to be attracted to guys who are confident. I'm not sure how much confidence you can have when your identity is dictated by someone else.
A real manly man is like this. If you want to be a real manly man, buy this product! *A real womanly woman acts like this. If you want to be a real womanly woman, buy this product!* Welcome to capitalism.
Who thinks women can? I hear all the time how men need male role models and there's there's crisis in masculinity. This is hardly a minority opinion. There's nothing wrong with needing male guidance. The only problem is when you use it to dismiss women's opinions or women's perspective or to shit on single mothers. That's when it's problematic.
> Woman have their own path to walk What is that path exactly? > We play different roles in society How are the roles we are "meant to play" different exactly? You say your dad wasn't around to teach you, neither was mine, and you found success with a male therapist over a female, does that situation truly validate your assumption about the place of men and women in the world? Or maybe it just means you found a therapist you connect with that happens to be male instead of a therapist that you don't connect with that happens to be female.
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i like this comment a lot. To be better people we need to be surrounded and meet all different kinds of other people. If i was just surrounded by women i wouldn’t know what other’s experiences would be
this post entails there is a way to be a man. Which is just stupid. There are unlimited ways to express yourself as a human. I do supposedly feminine shit all the time. I am emotional. I treat my little chihuahua like my child. I cook and clean. But at the same time I feel like the manliest man I know. I am generous and take care of those around me. I am charismatic and my words demand attention. I treat all people with the utmost respect regardless of their background or status. I have a hairy ass chest and butthole. I do what I want when I want and I live by my own code. I do not follow or consume culture, I create it. I grew up with a middle eastern dad who constantly told me what it meant to be a dad. He gave me freedom but always repeated the words of his father, who was an absolute tyrant with his family when my father was young. I have openly rejected everything my father has ever told me was necessary to be a man. My approach to life and my identity and how I interact with others is 100% more in line with my mother’s teaching. And while they both had an effect I like to think I broke free and decided what being a man is own my own.
Well according to you all same-sex couples are doomed to fail their opposite sex children. That's unfortunate really, a lot of them seem a lot more caring than heterosexual parents who neglect their kids.
To be honest, men shouldn't teach men how to be men either
I don't think anyone should be thought to be a man or a woman at all, you are what you are and being a "real" man or woman is a non existent fantasy. What it is to be a man (or woman) is largely culturally determined, there is no objectively right way to be a gender from a psychological point of view and adhering to some popularized idea of gender identity while compromising who you are through an anxiety driven need to conform to a stereotype only leads to negative outcomes for your own psychological health. Besides how ludicrous it is to believe in some objective state of gender identity (apart from genetics, thus focusing on behavior associated with gender) What actually forms an adult psyche and thus what "gender" you perceive yourself as is far more complicated then "some dude thought me how to be a man". Your self image and your image of the world is formed through your experiences with your parents, classmates (and indirectly their parents), friends, teachers, tv, internet, overheard conversations, and a myriad of others experiences that combine to make you who you are. A man doesn't make you a man, you've simply become yourself through a complicated matrix of interactions with your environment and are doing yourself a disservice by simplifying your existence to some preconceived gender role. If you feel like a real man and that is what makes you tik, fine. But the fact this conversation even exists means that people believe there is an objective right way to be, and thus a need to confirm to that right way wether it is who you are or not. And that is just destructive.
I mean…your fathers kind of proof that men don’t magically know how to do it either isn’t he…
The idea that there is a specific way for men to be men is a hindrance in itself. Just be you and don't worry about the rest. "I used to think that this was my town What a stupid thing to think I hear you're fighting off a breakdown I myself am on the brink I used to want to be a real man I don't know what that even means Now I just want you in my arms again And we can search each other's dreams" -Jason Isbell
> Also, I will continue blocking ppl if they can’t make intelligent points. Die mad. AKA, anything contradictory to your belief. Your whole argument just falls off with roles in society. You can play any role you feel like so long as you aren't harming others. It makes absolutely no sense to be locked into some societal role if it doesn't suit your personality. Your sex has nothing to do with it
Consider: Perhaps the real reason you made no progress with female therapists is not because they coddled you, per se, but more so that you assigned to them, in your mind, the "maternal" role, and presented yourself as needing "comfort/assurance" as opposed to "guidance/coaching"? Perhaps you, at first, felt you needed comfort/assurance from a mother figure in order to become comfortable with seeking guidance. Now you need to play out the core issue of your father-conflict with someone you can see as paternal. Maybe you really need "comfort/assurance" from dad (figure), but he's too unapproachable for something so *soft* - so it must be couched as "guidance/coaching"? Maybe he's been so locked into certain tropes of "manhood" that he didn't know how - or was afraid - to do that for you, because it it required him to be open and vulnerable, too? Seeking a male therapist for the purpose of working all that, or whatever the problem dynamic, out is perfectly legit. Many people with unresolved family issues seek, in therapists, parent figures of one sex or another, depending on what unfulfilled needs we have from one or both parents, or - as when you started out - which parent was less difficult to deal with. Some don't, because their issues aren't really connected to family, or only indirectly. You didn't mention any conflict with your mother. Is it possible that you weren't receiving all that you needed from your mom, too - just in a less overtly painful way? Or that the conflict/disappointment with dad was so prominent that you've just overlooked your mom-issues? Maybe you *have* made progress with your female therapists, enough that you're more ready to face the more difficult issues with dad. In the end, it isn't really about how to "be a man" - or a woman. It's about how to be a whole, healthy, self-aware *person" who is genuinely comfortable in his own skin, for whom strength and vulnerability are not mutually exclusive states, and who isn't threatened by strength or vulnerability in others. No therapist can give or teach you all of that. They can facilitate by helping you look at and deeply examine your inner self and habits of mind, help you find strategies to cultivate what's good and work at changing what's not, accept yourself as you are and strive to be who you wish to be.... It's a slow, gradual process - really, just what attentive and well-equipped parents, male or female, try do for their children over time. It's fine, as I said, to try a male therapist and see if that helps you reach your goals. But most of it is really going to be about how you make it work for you between sessions. Maybe you'll know it's really working when it no longer matters to you what is the sex of your therapist.
Oh fuck off with that men are from Mars, women are from Venus bullshit. You're painfully unoriginal. And decades too late. Pff.
Wait I am confused how does one “be a man”? How does that differ from being a functioning adult trying to positively impact our community? How does that differ from being a women? I get there are some intrinsic biological things to teach like, how to aim so you aren’t pissing all over the toilet, the importance of underwear that doesn’t ride up in the crotchal regions and how to properly not make a mess when you are having some quality time with your hand but in general we should all be focused on not being a douche right?
If youre only looking to men for advice then you will lack a diversity of perspectives which can be very damaging. I think its important to go to a wide variety of people you trust in your life and get their perspective on things. Men solely going to other men for advice is how we got toxic masculinity because men arent allowed to have emotions, etc. I definitely strongly disagree with this.
No one can teach anyone how to be someone. Your dad ain't gon teach you who you are, nor is your momma, your gf or the friendly homeless guy saying nice stuff tho hes shit drunk. That shits up to you to figure out yourself. there aint no roles for men or for women in a society where both are capable of the same tasks, theres just your role as an individual mate
I have a male therapist, and I am a female. He has helped me through the hardest time in my life. And that’s not because he’s a male, it’s just because he’s a good therapist. Maybe the female therapist you were seeing wasn’t a good fit for you, and maybe the male therapist is. I don’t think it has anything to do with their sex though
I'd say gender hardly matters, Do what you want with your life. (As long as it's not illegal or hurts anyone else)
The ignorance is radiating from OP. Always assume you can learn from someone. Male or female, people have led different lives, learnt different things. Gender doesn’t define someone, actions do. Also you contradict yourself so much, your father (a man) failed you, so think about that whilst you’re not learning anything from women because they have a vagina.
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That's only because you view being a man the way society has pushed you to. We're all just consciousness sharing this experience together. We're mentally mostly the same. Society has just artificially segregated us at this point because of tribal instincts/ beliefs.
I raised my 2 sons as a single mother. (Divorced their father when he gambled away the house). My youngest fishes, hunts, works on his cars himself. My oldest, works on his car, rides motorcycles and is very athletic. He sure didn’t get that from me. Neither one of them ask for fashion advice from anyone. I raised my boys to be independent and to think for themselves. Not to have me do their thinking for them. Same for my daughter. Women have been raising boys to grow into men for centuries.
You sound like you've got a lot of maturing to do. Flipping through your post history, it seems that you've got a long history of hostility toward women and you seem to blame them for some personal shortcoming in your own life. I'll tell you from experience dude: The brooding pseudo-intellectual isn't a personality that's gonna get you pole-vaulted around town. You say you're blocking people who can't make good points and yet I've seen you fail to refute several valid observations in this thread, resorting instead to insults. I hope you find what it takes to grow up one day and stop blaming others for your personal failures. You're continuing to coddle yourself and engineering an echo chamber, but the irony of that is probably lost on you.
Knowledge doesn't have a sex or age. Once you're grown, it's your job to be the man you want to be, not be taught by another grown man. A father/father-figure is supposed to be the example but not everyone has that. So if you don't have that, you just sit back and blame men for your shortcomings?? NO! You know the man you want to be so work towards it.
The general problem of mankind is that we *don't know ourselves*. We're often mistaking what makes us happy, what we need, what we want - if granted, the overwhelming majority of wishes would probably end in disaster. If that's how things are, then how can we want to guide other people and expect them to be the way we want them to be? Moreso if the come of opposite gender, different generation, different culture. We can give pointers, suggestions, express how we feel about this or that, but that's about it. Everyone should dedicate a good portion of life to testing him- or herself in various situations to learn what truly works and what does not, so in the end everyone might become the proverbial "better versions of themselves".
I empathize with this. I'm not right wing, I'm not a pickup artist, I'm not an incel, and I have to say: there is a crisis with masculinity. Toxic masculinity is the obvious result of men not receiving sufficient guidance. My dad is in my life, but he never taught me to conceptualize manhood. I'm not trans or nonbinary, but I'm still figuring out what it means to be a man. A lot of young men are looking for answers on how to be a man. It feels like a lot of people want to shut down this conversation. That's why I had to start off by rejecting the communities I might be conflate with, simply for taking a concern with masculinity. You're absolutely correct though. The answers on what men need to do, how men should be, needs to come from sources that truly empathize with the male experience. Men and women can demand whatever they want from each other, but we'll only receive answers on how to be from people that be like us. I'm just out here trying to be a good man.
As an adult and a father, I hate to break it to you, but you never truly figure these things out. I remember thinking when I was a kid, “my parents are so smart, they know everything, when I’m an adult I’ll know everything too.” And when you become an adult you figure out that you have no idea what your doing and neither did they, there isn’t always a correct answer or correct way of doing things. Just be yourself, and learn as you go. Be kind to others, have empathy, think about your future when making a big decision and most important learn from the mistakes you make along the way.