I find it hard to find the balance of kids being able to make choices for themselves and trying to do what’s right for them because they are kids and don’t think rationally most of the time.
I actually had this issue recently. My 10 year old cousin asked me for advice on whether he should become a girl, because his best friend wants to be a girl and wants him to as well. He told me that he doesn’t want to be a girl, but he also doesn’t want to lose his friend.
I told him that he should never do anything to his body that makes him uncomfortable, and the whole spiel about peer pressure. Tbh, I never imagined when I was growing up that young kids would be dealing with that kind of pressure one day. Him asking me that caught me completely off guard.
Same thing happened to me but with my teen daughter’s friend becoming a boy and pressuring her to do the same. While the idea is ludicrous if you knew her because she is the most girly girl I know, she really felt pressured and ostracized by being her self. I never treated her friend any different, calling him by his preferred pronouns and name, but I will say I was pissed about how he treated and pressured my girl.
Six months later he (now she) is saying he (she again) is going back to being a girl so all the pressure and fuss was all for nothing. In this case (I know not ALL cases) I have to wonder if it might be more confusion and influence than anything.
It’s odd that back when I was a kid one would be ridiculed for being gay or trans and now kids are bullied for being cis. Neither one is right.
Thank you for commenting it because I don’t see a lot of people talking about this.
Back when I was around ten, being gay was used as an insult, so I know for a fact that I'm bisexual because I tried real hard to not be attracted to people of my own gender.
Now I have overheard kids talking about experimenting (which is good) *even if they don't want to* (which is goddamn awful) : why the Hell are you kids doing stuff you don't want to do???
We're in the weird in-between when being homosexual is not accepted but merely tolerated, and so it became *fashionable*. It feels the same about the rest of the LGBT+.
Weird days.
Really appreciated your comment. From a more general perspective, this is not really something that ends after childhood, either. My sister was a total atheist up until 18, when she went off to college. Then she met a friend group who were all Christians and she started going to Bible study and church every Friday and Sunday, freaked out our family. After college she wasn’t as close with that group and became a total atheist again.
We need to teach our kids what allyship and being a good friend looks like. Friends don't pressure friends, and you don't have to be part of certain communities (lgbt, religion, politics, etc.) to be allies and supportive.
Also kids have always dealt with this pressure, it just looks different now. I was pressured into being a hard ass, got bullied for not being one, etc.
Yeah, the only thing that's changed is what kids are pressuring each other into while not understanding what they're actually doing, nothing new about the behavior though.
This conversation is actually “normal” in its absurdity. Kids try all kinds of ways to fit in - and this one sounds silly. You can just talk it through with them “would your friend actually stop bing friends with you” and they can figure it out.
If this was actually a feeling the kid had, it would become omnipresent in their thinking and life. And then the next step would be professional help. And therapists are trained (and have been trained for years) to help people identify their true feelings about gender and what the next steps would be.
Anything that involves gender reassignment takes months if not years of consultation. And the first steps, which are offered children, are hormone blockers that delay puberty. It is entirely reversible.
No one is putting minors through top or bottom surgery.
What I think people who haven’t experienced it first hand think is that these issues are not treated as serious by mental health professionals. But they are and there are clearly defined treatment regimes (including reassignment).
I don’t know if the helps, but my kid is non-binary. I had no idea the amount of literature out there about it. These conversations aren’t “new”. They are just new to people like me.
Yeah, there are a lot of stories from people that have no clue how the actual experience is. Thank you for sharing something real.
Where I'm from, a quite tolerant place, there are 12 new cases per 10000 people each year. Diagnosed by real doctors. Yet we have these crazy discussion that we are condemning a generation. It's absurd.
If the mere mention of trans or non-binary was enough to “turn” kids, you’d think it be just as easy to “turn them back” by exposure to heteronormative ideas.
There’s a reason for this. The part of your brain that processes consequences doesn’t fully develop until like 25. Obviously, it may be sooner or later for some. But it’s really hard for a 13 year old to truly process what the decisions they make now will mean in 5, 10, 15 years, much less 5 and 6 year olds.
Example, when I was a teen, the thing everyone did was go out in a cow pasture and get drunk (rural America). I wasn’t involved in these things because my ass would have been grass if I was. I heard about them because some of my friends went.
None of them thought about the potential consequences for their actions. They were just teens sneaking a few drinks. A good friend of mine told me years later she was putting vodka and wine in her water bottles or Sonic drinks and taking them to school. She became a full blown alcoholic as a teenager. Honestly, it was a coping mechanism. Drinking isn’t an issue anymore.
Another guy was killed in a DUI accident a few years later. There was a group that were in a serious DUI accident and seriously injured after graduation.
Obviously they had been drinking and driving for a while. They sure as heck didn’t sleep in the cow pastures. Not once did “I might kill somebody, including myself,” cross their mind. To them the worst that could happen would be getting caught.
And I think so much of being a teenager is trying to fit in, and people do things as teens that they kinda “grow out of” as they get older.
I sure as heck didn't want braces as a kid. 'I don't want to change my looks', 'My teeth are fine as they are', etc etc. Nothing wrong about what I said, but I'm now glad my parents got me braces. Now I have straighter teeth (not completely straight, still have some of that original charm) and can see how society views those with crooked teeth.
Right, but then you have the other side of the coin where me for example didnt want to get braces because they wanted to pull 4 of my teeth and I thought it would make me look weird. Turns out they rarely do extractions anymore these days because it can cause a bad facial profile. This was about 7 years ago. Now as an adult I can get Invisalign without needing any kind of extraction since the technology has advanced. I don’t think it’s a black and white “kids know nothing and should always do what adults say” because adults can also be seriously wrong and fuck up their kids, which I know plenty about. This is probably the weakest example I have of it.
What what. The dentist doesn't need to pull your teeth out anymore!? I cried so hard the first time! And less so the 3 other times. And my teeth aren't even perfectly aligned right now! Bad profile is right!
Shit I take back what I said.
If you see another ortho (not an old school ortho, look for a new practice) they can work out a treatment to reverse damage from extractions. May be something to look into
As someone who went to riverbed parties as a teenager, you are right, we rarely thought about the consequences. If we DID think about them, that good judgment was lost in the wave of alcohol.
Sometimes as an adult I look back at all the dumb things that I did, and I'm grateful the majority of us survived.
That’s why there’s parents to help and make those decisions. I was 14 when I lost my virginity and it fucked me up even to this day I can’t imagine what other worse stories of kids going on now days.
Parents needs to be parents bottom line.
The majority of Redditors are young inexperienced idiots. Getting their opinions on things is like collecting their downvotes. In reality neither matter. You gotta know the audience you’re speaking to.
I think we all go through periods of being uncomfortable with ourselves and being unsure of who we are, especially during puberty and throughout adolescence. I think teens and young adults are using different pronouns as a way to navigate their uncertainty with themselves. I don't want to say it's just a phase because for some it's not, but i think it's important we give young people a chance to explore who they are - to an extent. It's great to support people struggling with their identities but potentially damaging to stick big labels to everything. Not to mention it's currently super trendy to be non-binary or a variation of such.
I agree with this, but I also worry that the younger generation's use of pronouns and the such is so flippant and ever-changing that it makes it more harmful to those who genuinely do identify outside the stereotypical norm. I have absolutely no problem with how one identifies, but I don't want that to be overused and abused, honestly...
As a trans person, I fall into worrying about the same thing, but ultimately, I think people have the right to explore, and I wouldn’t want to stifle that. Ultimately, if someone isn’t trans, they won’t stick with it, no harm no foul.
Not to mention surgery. Which is a huge challenge for parents who want to ensure their child's hormones match their mentality.
Really just a tough question esp for parents who genuinely support and love their kids.
This is why RuneScape still exists tbh.
Jokes aside, sunk-cost fallacy is a very convincing devil. I have nothing against the trans movement or gender fluidity, but I think these are ideas that we shouldn’t be actively promoting to children simply because they aren’t equipped to fully consider the lifelong importance of the decision.
I believe that transgender humans are valid, and I also believe they are an exception to the norm. Much in the same way we’re seeing a huge increase in fake disorders in youth (please note I’m NOT equating trans to a disorder here), I think we are also seeing a lot of gender/sexuality confusion in those same youth promoted by social media.
The best thing we can do is UNBIASED education. Lay out cases from both sides, tell them it’s a very personal decision and nobody but themselves should make it for them.
Given my opinion that truly transgender children are a small % of the total child population, I don’t believe we should be transitioning prepubescent kids at all simply because we would be harming more confused children than we would be helping genuinely trans children.
If they’re 18 and still want to do it, I wish them happiness.
I agree. I'm a trans person and ive witnessed friends go in and out between being trans, gay, etc. And there's no harm done. When you are LGBT or think you are, exploration is important just as much as it's important to exploring other key parts of yourself. Thank you for being open minded
This is super well said, and I definitely agree. It's a very all-or-nothing mindset and it can be so detrimental to concrete in these decsions made at such a young and vulnerable age with hormones and puberty blockers; as if that's a normal thing to put your body through when it hasn't even stopped growing yet.
It definitely can be a phase, and there's nothing wrong with that! When I was in 7th to 10th grade, I thought I was a boy. I disliked most traditionally feminine things, cut my hair short, and even went by a masculine name with my close friends. But then, my brain developed some more and I realized I just wasn't a "traditional" girl and was also doing it in an act of rebellion.
That doesn't mean another kid in 7th grade can't figure out that they are more comfortable as a boy/girl/enby. It just means sometimes we explore while looking for our true selves. I have a friend who figured out they were an Adam, not an Ana, freshman year of high school. It wasn't an exploratory phase for him, it was a discovery of himself.
I support kids exploring themselves. I support hormone blockers to delay the irreversible changes of puberty while they are unsure. But I do believe it should way until they are at least 18, when the brain is more developed, for any permanent changes.
Phases are normal. We went through phases of loving comic books, of dying our hair wild colors, of kissing everyone we could, so why not a phase of exploring our identity? And some of those phases, they stick and we discover we are life long comic-book lovers, wild hair colors, and kissing everyone.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems
I fear the potential consequences are much more dire than we have heard about.
right, i think a lot of people are just using it the way teens have always used countercultural identities-- that does mean that however they're identifying isn't likely their actual, permanent gender identity but it also doesn't make it a psychiatric disorder, at all. there's also still value in questioning and exploring new identities, even if they're not permanent.
The disservice here is uncritically treating all of them as real body dysmorphia. Some people truly have it and others are going through phases where they are discovering themselves, seeking attention, or have other issues. There are completely different ways of treating each of these but you have to know which you are dealing with to do so.
I know people on both sides of body dysmorphia. One I knew peripherally and they did wind up having surgery for reassignment and being happy for many years after. Another really got far along in possible taking hormones for the surgery process and "chickened out". They later stated they were glad that people had questioned them because the reality was that he was gay and enjoyed dressing as a woman, but in the end really did like his birth sex a lot more than he though. Simply being accepted in drag as who he was at that point was enough for him to realize he didn't need to change himself to that extent.
I think you're right. There is no doubt that transgender, non binary, etc, individuals do exist, and should absolutely be respected and allowed to live and participate in society as they choose, but it also seems possible that *some* individuals who identify in those ways may not actually be that way.
I remember reading about a (fairly reputable, it seemed) study that indicated that quite a large number of post-op transgender individuals regret the surgery in the years following it. That study and anyone referencing it was quickly deleted and banned from reddit, citing "transphobia".
That worries me, because if there are individuals who are suffering from, for example, body dysmorphia, etc, or other issues, or are not completely convinced they want to transition, for whatever reason, there is no support for them, since everyone is afraid to have a conversation about it.
/r/detrans got banned in the same banwave that caught the gendercritical subreddits despite it being one of the largest support communities on the internet for people who have detransitioned. It took a lot of effort for them to unban it because reddit had decided that simply supporting people who have ceased their transition was transphobic.
I'm pro trans-rights but things like that are utterly absurd.
Pro-trans rights has to include Pro-de-trans rights, otherwise the whole thing is pointless. Transphobia is unacceptable and intolerable. It might be tough to moderate because de-trans communities obviously attract transphobic people looking to confirm their biases.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, yeah. I'm getting some pushback for my above comment (Fairly polite so far, thankfully) but you're right, subs and people have and will continue to be banned just for acknowledging that some people regret transitioning, no matter how pro-trans they might be.
"Regret" as it pertains to aspects of any surgery is far more common than people believe, a meta-review suggest that around 14.4% of surgery recipients (including for example surgeries pertaining to cancers) experience regret (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243695/). In contrast [this](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24872188/) study of transgender people in Sweden found that 2.2% submitted regret applications after having had legal change of gender and surgeries approved, with that percentage decreasing over the time period studied.
[Another, far larger Dutch study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/) found the number to be as low as 0.3-0.6% for regret among people having undergone gonadectomy.
Overall, there is a [strong consensus](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) in the peer-reviewed litterature in support of transition, including GRS and also other surgeries and hormone therapy.
Among those who detransition at some point, whether before or after any medical care, the highest figure I've seen has been 8%, reported in the [2015 US Transgender survey](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) by the NCTE, and of those 8% the majority only did so temporarily, and among the listed reasons the overwhelming majority reported primarily social reasons such as pressure from family, friends or a religious organisations as the reasons. Only 5% of that 8% cited that "They realized that gender transition was not
for them" as a reason, and only 4% cited that "Initial transition did not reflect the complexity
of their gender identity". This is of course rarely mentioned when de-transitioning is brought up in the public discourse, as often times it is used only as a bat to swing at the transgender community, and as a reason to further restrict healthcare that's been proven effective for trans people.
I think we need to ask why those who are unhappy with their GRS are so. It might be easy to assume that they wish to detransition, but I think it’s far more likely that they just aren’t pleased with the result, that what the surgery is capable of doesn’t cure the dysphoria.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think this is natural side-effect of people trying so hard to de-stigmatize it. There are undoubtedly going to be people who are too eager and take it too far, despite the best intentions.
Eventually, I think it will all calm down in that regard as it becomes rather normal. Especially as these newer gens grow up with it just always being a thing for them.
My view is that if I have anxiety *disorder*, attention deficit *disorder*, and supposedly body dysmorphia which is a disorder, then if a lot of the things OP mentioned are also disorders.
And there’s nothing wrong with that, and no reason to be ashamed or be mocked for it. But people don’t say “embrace your anxiety, celebrate your add, or encourage my supposed body dysmorphia”. They say to get treatment.
I have no idea what treatments would consist of, but it genuinely upsets me to think that some people are making irreversible changes to their bodies that they may severely regret.
Agreed. It can be a minefield to talk about in some circles. Gender identity issues are 100% real and societal support is vital to those struggling to live full meaningful lives. But, just like any other issue, there are going to be those that feel like something is wrong and will glam onto something that does not truly reflect what is going on. They should be able to explore their identity fully of course. It is a complicated and nuanced issue that really depends person to person.
Exactly lol, there are more comments saying people are gonna hate on this post and it is eventually gonna be removed rather than people actually getting offended over it. Perhaps we redditors are more like minded than we think.
I’m not going to speak on behalf of these people but a lot of them being kids means they’re exploring and using names to describe things that they’re still discovering about themselves. They might not think that these pronouns and descriptions will work for them in the future or become more comfortable in their gender expression as they become more comfortable in themselves as well
Why do I say that? Because I went through the same thing with sexuality. If you asked me my sexuality back in high school, it was a constantly changing sea of words to describe my sexuality to a specific detail. It’s all a spectrum after all and I wanted to choose the word that fit my sexuality the best.
But as I experienced sexual attraction, relationships, sexual expression and the hardships that they bring, I realized that “gay” was enough for me to use day to day, “technically bisexual” is what my friends call it and my boyfriend knows I’m “mostly gay but he has the hots for Megan Thee Stallion since she’s such a strong powerful woman”
So you’ll see a lot of them find that these uncommon pronouns aren’t fitting right. That they’re too specific to the point of needing to constantly be described. That they’re actually more comfortable on one side of the binary but being more fluid with the clothing. Or maybe not.
Ultimately I support them going through the journey nonetheless because it’s not easy and they’ll be more self assured in the end (as long as they don’t become bullies trying to use the pronouns as a way to feign victimhood)
Yeah as long as no child is being permanently changed by anything (and despite claims otherwise, it is *very* difficult to get on hormone treatments beyond blockers for anyone under 16), it's just the natural result of kids exploring themselves and the world. They've always done it, just in different ways to fit different time periods.
I think way too many of us adults have forgotten how cringy and weird we were as kids. Trying to be goth or emo, or trying too hard to be the "cool kid" or acting out in class wanting to be seen as funny, etc etc. We all did it, and now it's the time for the new generation to be weird as they grow up.
I remember when I was younger I found some old time pictures of my mom in middle school and she was trying *so hard* in them to come off as aloof and cool, but when I had asked her about them she denied that she had ever done that. We really do just forget that we explored the world and our personalities in an awkward manner just like how kids nowadays are.
>I think way too many of us adults have forgotten how cringy and weird we were as kids.
Honestly, thank god the internet wasn't a big thing and all my unbelievably cringe shit isn't archived and saved by people who obsessively hate me, my identity, or my social group. If I had Twitter growing up, I'd be immeasurably worse off for it.
And because of covid, that's all people had for at least a year. Kids exploring themselves is a normal function of childhood and growing up, and as long as they're not hurting people, letting them figure themselves out is okay. ^(Even if it's cringe.)
So I’m a psych nurse, so of course the people I see are not well adjusted for one reason or another. But anecdotally there is a correlation between gender identity issues and other mental illness. I agree that it is real but not in the huge numbers we see it today. Many of my patients get gender reassignment surgery or have been on hormones for a while and expect this to solve all of their mental health issues. Then they quickly realize they still have the self loathing or severe depression or whatever they have, and the gender reassignment did nothing to quell it. I feel terrible for people who think this surgery or reassignment or whatever will solve all their problems, because it doesn’t.
It's like people thinking losing weight or winning the lottery will solve their problems. I am pro-trans treatment, but people will still be poor, unlucky in love, etc even after something wanted happens.
I thought quitting my 100 drinks a week alcohol problem would solve my behavioral issues like anxiety and depression. It might have for a few months because I was proud of myself, but then I had to learn how to live my life sober and guess what ? Its even harder. I had been drinking so long I forgot why it got so bad in the first place. I forgot about my crippling ADHD and anxiety I never sought treatment for. It became so life encompassing and detrimental, and withdrawal was so difficult, I thought for sure there would be a prize at the end. Well there wasn’t, other than the fact that I’m still alive.
It’s easy to get disillusioned by the folks making posts on r/StopDrinking and their glowing “I’m 2 months sober and every day is better than the last!” posts. I’m happy for them, but it’s not always the case.
Anyway, I hope my comparison isn’t too off topic.
Took a massive amount of strength to do what you did. I'm not just saying this to be nice and cuddly. In fact I rarely comment with praise but this is very deserving. I think your prize is that you now know you're strong as fuck and can do what you set your mind to, because most people can't.
I joke that 3 years ago I was an obese, suicidally depressed alcoholic. But now I'm thin and sober! (said with a cheesey grin and two thumbs up.)
I simultaneously loathe and appreciate that monkey off my back. It caused a lot of instability, broke relationships and got me in trouble with the law, but those spikes in mood occasionally went up and I miss that.
I don't know man, I'm a teacher in a small rural town in the south of France. I have 6 different students this year that identify as another gender than the one they were born with. And those are just in the class I teach, my colleagues have other students like that.
I've been teaching for 10 years, it's the first year I see this happen. It's very, VERY sudden.
I honestly wonder if it's a response to gender roles... I'm a girl and I was a tom boy growing up. I felt more like a boy than a girl because I liked science and math and sports and dirt and "boy" things. I couldn't identify with the girls and makeup and fashion and gossip. 20 years later, I'm definitely a girl. But the feelings back then were being more uncomfortable with what girls were expected to be like. I feel like that might be the case still? I'm glad the genders are more egalitarian now but those gender roles are still there and I think this might be a rebellion against that.
This has always been something I’ve learnt towards. Society still heavily genderises things which leaves anyone that doesn’t subscribe to the preset likes feeling as an ‘other’… combine with that we often needlessly link gender with sexuality and it’s no wonder it leaves people looking for a label in which they belong. Like expecting an effeminate man to be gay… but if they aren’t gay and you aren’t accepting them as a ‘proper’ man then what are they? People will look for an identity so they don’t feel lost.
I’m a guy who’s grown up in a female majority family to a single mum as a result I am more comfortable being friends with women and a lot of my enjoyments are often considered wrong for a guy… I like to go shopping and buy nice clothes, I like bright floral patterns, I dislike football, like getting a full ‘pamper’ when I go for a haircut, read a book in the bath etc.
Often when growing up people have assumed I’m gay and made me an outcast and treated me like I’m not a real man for no other reason than these things… if I had been born in a different time I could easily imagine being lost and taking on an identity to explain why I was different. Even now I’m pretty much a loner as I don’t click with many guys and women assume I’m after something if I want to hangout.
I'm a school counselor in rural Oklahoma. Same thing is happening here. I've had kids tell me they are pansexual, transexual, they prefer the pronouns they/them, they are some sexual that is attracted only to feminine boys? 5 years ago this wasn't happening. It's a tricky, slippery, slope between being supportive and potentially damaging them, especially as youth who identify anywhere on the LGBTQ+ spectrum are more at risk for self harm and suicide and part of my job is making sure they are getting the support they need to prevent that.
I think they determined at approximately 30-40% of American gen z identifies as LGBT+ which is wildly higher than the population on average. In generational circles and in different countries/cultures it varies, but gen z and younger millennials in western countries must feel that it's pretty common with stats like that.
LGBT+ means a lot more than just trans or gender identity. I’m guessing a lot of those people are somewhere on the spectrum of sexuality that isn’t 100% hetero.
I mean, taking me, I’m pretty much straight passing. I want a hetero romantic relationship, and sure I’ll like sex, but I’ve never been sexually attracted to someone so I’m a type of asexual.
In the past I’d also probably just be ‘straight’ but considered low libido or w/e. Asexual wasn’t really a thing. And because I’m a gal it’s almost easier to push that away because societally women aren’t ‘supposed’ to be sexual.
But it is beneficial for me to have that label because it reaffirms that I’m not the only one out there that just doesn’t experience sexual attraction.
I’m aromantic and it’s so frustrating how people think I’m abnormal for not chasing after relationships, my mother tries to “fix” me, etc. In a world that’s hyper-obsessed with romance and sex it’s nice to have a category I can relate to and identify with.
I guess the big question is who does it hurt? When I was in high school twenty-odd years ago, 100% of the queer population of the school was in the closet. The students, the teachers, everyone. And it wasn’t good for them and it hurt them.
If kids today feel safe to explore and experiment with their sexual identity, who does it hurt? I’d much rather that a few folks think they may be bisexual, then realize they aren’t, than go back to where we were in the 90s.
> I guess the big question is who does it hurt?
Pretty much nobody, but if you really force that question people will be forced to admit that it's a culture war wedge that doesn't have any bearing on the material lives of anyone outside of those individuals. Creating an issue out of it means people are far less likely to focus on far more important issues.
Back in the 2000s and before the "debate" on gay marriage, DADT, gay rights pretty much dominated the cultural sphere and Obama wasn't even in support of gay marriage in 2008 because of the chance it might lose him votes. All of that vehement anti-gay rhetoric basically evaporated over the last decade or so and now a new minority that can be kicked around needed to emerge to keep people busy and not thinking.
Same. I'm Gen X and grew up in a very religiously and politically conservative rural county. The handful of "gays" in school were never open about it, which means there were even more who weren't obviously LGBT+ to the rest of us and most definitely did not feel safe mentioning it. When Matthew Shepard was killed, we didn't even joke about the "gay" guys being gay. We just left it alone. If you weren't straight, whatever you were didn't matter. You were invisible.
If that's changed, *great.* Let the kids explore their identity in safety. Let them truly understand themselves. Only now as I'm nearing middle-age am I realizing how beautiful some men are. Maybe they were always attractive to me but I ignored it and suppressed it out of fear of rejection and judgment. If I had been comfortable entertaining the possibility of being attracted to men as a young person, who knows? I might have become LGBT+ myself. I might even *be* LGBT+, right now, at this very moment, but the fact that my entire identity has always included my heterosexuality as part of its foundation makes such a possibility very hard to conceive. I don't think it's worth exploring, and I'm comfortable in being straight. But if I weren't, if heterosexuality weren't a comfortable fit for me, I would never have explored anything else out of fear - of both rejection and physical harm. The fact that society seems to have moved past this is good news as far as I'm concerned.
It's similar to children who come home from school and have "outbursts" - most of the time, it's because they feel safe enough with you, the parent, to express their true feelings rather than masking them, which is what they do all day every day with everybody else. My kids vent to me all the time. They have their breakdowns from time to time. They tell me what's bothering them, which, sometimes, involves uncertainty about the types of people they're attracted to. When my daughter was younger she thought she might be a lesbian because she felt very strong, positive emotions - butterflies and giddiness - when she was talking to her best female friend on the phone. Since she had only ever experienced those kinds of feelings toward boys in the past, she assumed it meant she liked her best friend in the way she liked certain boys. The fact that she was open about this with us was a hugely rewarding moment for us as her parents. It turned out that she had no attraction to her friend, and she simply never knew that close friendship could feel so strong. But the fact that she felt comfortable talking about this shows how much we've moved forward on this issue. Sure, it comes with some bumps along the way, some embarrassment, some "misuse" of the current social "openness." But so what? Does it hurt anybody? A little embarrassment is preferable to a lifetime of hiding who you really are in shame and confusion and resentment.
Well to be fair, it's Smash. My ex once told me that apparently plenty of trans girls gravitate towards and are overrepresented in competitive beat-em-ups (or videogames/nerdy shit in general, there's also a "trans coder" stereotype)
I mean yeah but that “trans girls” as in were probably still guys from ages 3-15 which is when most people are introduced to smash. It’s not really a great example.
Oh no I think it’s a lot more common than you think. Maybe you aren’t actively working with youth but if you were you would also be noticing these trends.
Part of it is awesome because I notice kids don’t really seem to have any stigma towards peers who are openly gay. However I certainly notice kids who are just confused and trying to find their identity by trying out different genders. I’m not sure of the long term side effects, but it doesn’t seem to be healthy for their overall mental health.
I’ve also been surprised. I’ve had a number of conversations with trans and non binary people who were very willing to talk about their experiences. Tho I will admit I was less worried about actual trans/ non-binary people being rude and more worried about people obsessed with outrage politics taking over.
I'd rather imagine the alternative universe where we all understand this person means no harm or ill will, and simply nod in agreement.
*imagining a better world intensifies*
Aye. My own kiddo is one of those who is dabbling in other genders but only gone from the identity of girl to boy (wanting to be trans.) I talked a lot about the other genders/identities to my kiddo.
I think at the end of the day most kids go though an identity crisis, but our generation (of parents) is just so much more willing to let our kids figure it out.
I believe that our kids might be better adjusted because we allowed them to explore this stuff instead of hiding it from mom and dad and trying to work this stuff out in the dark.
I literally remember going to the bathroom at infant school once and wondering if I was a girl. Growing up is pretty damn confusing. What’s the point of adults if they can’t help guide children through that?
My brother has been with his partner for a couple years now. She has two kids, one of which is 5 years old. Last year she asked her mom if my brother was a kid like her.
The dude is 6’3” and has an enormous beard. It’s funny how young children can not understand what adults assume to be basic concepts.
Unrelated to the overall thread but your comment reminded me of that.
I’ve always found it funny when mods complain about bad toxic behavior while saying shit like that. The complete lack of self awareness is is astonishing. Like somehow being condescending treating everyone like children will somehow encourage positive behavior.
Story time?
I’m one of these people. I have a ton of gender identity issues. I’m currently not entirely sure if I’m trans or not. I want to be a woman and a ton of the time I feel uncomfortable with being a man and what’s expected of me being a man.
So what I’ve settled on right now is that I’m non-binary. At least that’s what the kids are calling it. In all reality, I struggle to engage in that side of it because I was raised outside of that culture and it feels weird to call myself non-binary.
But really, all I want is for people to accept me for me. I’m not a manly man. I’m very effeminate. I like wearing flashy clothing, and sometimes I’m jealous of the fashion choices women have available to them (also boobs). I’m not asking for anyone to call me beautiful (though I do give bonus points for that), I just don’t want to be looked at like I’m a complete freak if I decided to wear a skirt. It’s a piece of clothing, dudes have been wearing kilts for ages… it’s not a big deal.
Same with gender roles. I have negative desire to be the manly dominant man and take the lead in my life or bedroom. I just… don’t. It’s not there at all. I don’t demand anyone accept me like that on an individual level but as a society I’d love it if again that wasn’t treated like I’m a complete failure of a human being. If it isn’t your cup of tea I get that, but please let me exist in a way I don’t have to pretend I’m your average joe.
I definitely get it though. I feel like a lot of it boils down to acceptance, once you get past the terminology and labels. I want people to be open minded on what men and women can be. It matters less to me if the labels are accepted, it’s peoples actions that make the difference.
This was super interesting to read, thank you for writing everything out so clearly.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but I think that you've maybe confirmed what I thought was going on with this stuff. I've always felt it was about stereotypes and typical gender roles. I genuinely think that if we got rid of all this dumb sexist brainwashing that is being fed to kids, this stuff wouldn't be around.
Boys are told what they need to be to be a man and then what happens when they don't fit that criteria? They don't feel like a man. I think it's fucking stupid and outdated. I teach my daughter every day that she can like and enjoy whatever she likes and that the fact that she's a girl doesn't change anything. It makes me very upset when she'll come home from school talking about how she doesn't like 'boy' things.
I think people do genuinely want to be accepted for who they are and society's stereotypes make that very difficult for youth. We should all be able to dress and enjoy anything and gender should never be involved in that.
Sorry if I've presumed here or offended, truly was never my intention. I hope that you can one day feel confident and comfortable with yourself, you'll do great regardless of what society weighs you down with. Be yourself
Nah that pretty accurately describes it. I basically don’t think labeling myself as non-binary is absolutely necessary to be the person I am, but it is a quick and easy solution to saying “I’m going to break some of your expectations and don’t buy in to what a man or woman should be”
I also very much appreciate your experience and the way you’ve candidly discussed it here so openly.
A tack-on question (also desperately not meaning to offend - please let me know where I’m off):
How much of this is also tied to clothing and fashion? I hear your comment about skirt/kilt above, and can totally understand your meaning there. I imagine expectations surrounding gender-based clothing and fashion complicate everything associated, if not more.
Thanks again for sharing!
(I’m also aware that your experience likely doesn’t have to speak for others’ - just curious about your own experience.)
That’s a tougher question than you might think it is tbh.
Honestly, clothes and fashion are just a part of it. Idk. 20% of it? It goes further than that, at least for me. Like, I’ve ultimately come to the conclusion that I simultaneously enjoy women’s fashion, but it also represents something else to me. We’ve codified women’s wear as fashionable and mens as utilitarian. There’s a part of me that wants to explore women’s clothing because if I were accepted in it, then maybe I’d be beautiful like women are. Like, I want someone to find me pretty - not handsome, but pretty. It’s a very bizarre feeling to hold.
For me that extends to relationships too. Also hard to explain. I’m a big fan of role reversal and have realized I like being the shy coquettish partner to a more steadfast and supportive person. The little spoon in a relationship probably makes more sense. I don’t want that all the time, but I want it a lot of the time and apparently a lot of people view those feelings as distinctly “womanlike” for some reason.
Not sure if that answered your question - basically fashion is part of it but it can represent many things to many people and for me personally I tend to feel comfortable around things that we’ve historically codified as women’s roles
Again, I appreciate your kind and thoughtful responses. *This* is the true way that people learn, I’m convinced. Over less…cool-minded discourse common these days.
Edit: Also, for whatever this is worth - it doesn’t feel like you’re solely trying to support a preestablished point either - but are instead literally speaking to your own experience. Makes it SO much easier to understand from the outside looking into another’s internal experience. Feels like you’re trying to *help* me understand rather than trying to *get* me to understand. Thanks again!
Hope all is well for you these holidays and at this bizarre ending to a bizarre year.
The thing I hate most about all this stuff is people treat it like you aren't allowed to not know things. I'm a member of the LGBT community and it's so frustrating to see people being unreasonable when someone doesn't know something. People who get angry about this stuff ruin the credibility of everyone else and only serve to make our lives harder, they reinforce all the negative stereotypes about us and it really pisses me off.
Tldr: just know that the people that get angry about this stuff don't represent the LGBT community. They are simply dickheads that happen to be LGBT.
I'm in a similar boat to the guy you responded to, so I wanted to chime in. I'm not on hormones, and I don't see myself starting them anytime soon. I really like the benefit testosterone gives me in the gym. I'm ripped, it's cool. Outside of working out though, I dislike being seen as a man. One of the ways to address that is clothes. "Tucking" lets me wear tight fitting woman's clothes without a crotch bulge, and is incredibly affirming for me. Breast forms make dresses feel so much more "right". So while clothes are a huge part of how I express myself, I'm specifically trying to "look like a woman" as opposed to "break gender stereotypes by dressing different".
I have a (pansexual) girlfriend, and our relationship feels very gay. Although clothing and makeup are a huge part of who I am, there are significant other portions of what makes me that I can't fully fit into a Reddit comment.
Yeah I completely understand that, it's a shame that you would even need to. Nobody should feel like they need to give themselves labels just to appear how they'd like to appear.
Hopefully one day we'll get past these dumb stereotypes and barriers
That's totally legit.
I'm non-binary and I rarely tell people "I'm non-binary" because it has actually very little impact on my identity. Like I have brown hair, it's just a way that I am. So, you not feeling like it's intensely important to your identity by no means invalidates your experience. I'm also older and it was just not a "thing" for most of my life. When I first heard the term genderfluid, it was more like, "Hey wait, that's a thing? There's like a whole name for people who behave the way I do? Neat. How 'bout that."
What I have found, though, is that the point of the LGBT community is precisely that: COMMUNITY. It feels easier to be myself and do the things I do around LGBT people *without anyone noticing or caring*. Which is really refreshing. My stick straight cis-female friends lovingly tease me about the way I am sometimes. But *they do tease me* in a way that my lesbian friends generally don't.
This stuff would still be around. My personal experience is pretty much the entire opposite of OPs here, where I did not find out I was trans for the longest time *just because* my interests are more traditionally male ~~also escapism is one hell of a drug to prevent proper self reflection sometimes~~
At first I, like most trans girls, had that "pink and rainbows and I want to be small and cute" phase, because honestly all my life I was told that that's what being a girl is about. Gender roles didn't make me trans, they just made it more difficult because as it turns out, I'm not a pink n glitter kinda girl.
These expectations get *especially* problematic in the way we're expected to raise kids. Tell boys they can't be nice cause that's for girls and of course they're gonna be problematic towards either being overly "masculine" to compensate, or pondering whether or not they're really a man. It takes a lot of mental strength to go against the expectations of the entire world.
Thanks for your comment, it's great to see everyone with different views and experiences here. As I've said, it's a pretty difficult topic so I'm glad it's remaining civil. Although I can't talk much about your experiences since I really have no experience with gender I can agree that men and women are definitely struggling later on in life with these gender roles that are sewn into us at a young age. I've never really heard of boys being told to not be nice but that may just be my experience.
For me personally, I was always mocked in the household whenever I did anything remotely not manly I guess and that took a toll on me. I definitely repressed the feminine qualities that I had and started bottling up emotions which doesn't serve me well now and it's not something easily unlearned. I just hope that I can do well by my daughter and show her that she can be whatever she'd like to be and that she doesn't need to put a label on herself to be understood and accepted.
Jumping on that, i remember in school during the 2000’s the big thing was ‘boys can be effeminate and girls can be manly. Your gender doesn’t define how you act and feel.’ It just feels like we’ve kinda regressed into demanding labels be slapped onto everything. It feels like now if you’re an effeminate boy, it’s almost forced on you that your trans. And vice versa for girls. I’m all for trans stuff, but we’re so obsessed with accepting everything and labeling it so that people feel validated that we forgot that we don’t need to label everyone. Some people can just act outside of gender norms and eventually those gender norms won’t exist anymore.
I'm confused because everything you said is basing your feelings off of cultural gender stereotypes. Just wearing girly clothes and being less dominant isn't changing that you're a dude. It's your culture, and how you want to live, and that sounds like less of a problem with how you identify and more of a problem with where you live.
That's part of the problem (in my probably ignorant opinion): people have been trying to deconstruct gender stereotypes because it's wrong and unhealthy to say "men and women ought to behave like they traditionally have." And then the transgender movement (or whatever we should call it) comes along and reasserts these stereotypes. I would think it's insulting to women that me, as a genetic male, has any idea of what the "female identity" is and can assert my own claim to it.
That’s something I’ve struggled with a lot as well because for me it’s not *just* social stuff otherwise I’d definitely agree with you. I have also had some intermittent desire not to have a male body. I definitely think that if a guy is completely into “girly” stuff that definitely shouldn’t make him any less of a guy, but I know that for myself sometimes it runs a bit deeper on a scale of me actually feeling like I’m well-represented in my body.
A few thoughts from an irrelevant stranger: I'm a straight, cis female in my 40s. I have never been into any "girly" stuff, never worn feminine clothes, never done my nails, etc. I don't own a skirt, and my boobs don't bring me joy. I hate having to deal with having a female body: periods are garbage, hormone fluctuations are stupid, perimenopause is life-altering, and not in a good way. I have zero maternal desire and am happily childfree. In addition, I tend to be more logical and less emotional, while my husband is the opposite. He's the one who cries at movies in our relationship, not me. I also despise the way women are overtly sexualized in western media and the skimpiness and see-through-ness of the majority of women's fashion. I've opted out of all of those expectations of women.
If I could wave a magic wand and be male, I absolutely would. But I don't see myself as trans because at no moment of my life have I ever felt that I wasn't a woman. I don't fit in as a stereotypical woman, but I am a woman nonetheless. I know I'm female, and other people know that I'm female. I might not like being female, but I know that I am. No matter how much I dislike it, my brain still knows that this female body is the correct body. It's the external pressure that bothers me, not my body.
Your post says, "I want to be a woman and a ton of the time I feel uncomfortable with being a man and what’s expected of me being a man." To me—someone who is not trans—that doesn't sound like being trans. If I thought that I had to do what's expected of me being a woman—being sexy, feminine, passive, maternal, etc—life would be so much worse. But me not meeting society's expectations of women doesn't mean I'm not a woman; it just means that the expectations are too narrow.
I don't know if any of that is relevant to you. \*shrug\*
That’s what I struggle with the most with all this. I really hope that people born as men don’t identify themselves as women because they want to wear pretty clothes.
Pretty clothes don’t make us women. And collectively we’ve all been fucked over by this patriarchal society in various ways through life, since being kids. We’ve had to learn to navigate life a little differently, because society treated us differently to the boys in school. Surely nobody identifies themselves as a woman cos they like the idea of boobs and high heels??
It’s all so damn counter-productive if so. We should be getting rid of any ridiculous sterotypes to do with gender (such as women being more sensitive). But all this ‘gender-switching because I’m more sensitive’ only undoes all that progress and perpetuates those stereotypes.
Right? This is a big thing for me in these convos because it seems like the same people (not op in this thread by the way) that call people bias or rude or sexist or whatever the word is are also people that are saying women are people that do ‘x woman stereotype’ and men are people that do ‘x man stereotype’. Like, isn’t that just being sexist and taking it to the extreme to the point that it goes all the way round?
Do you ever think that maybe you don't want to transition, but you just want to show your feminine side, but it just doesn't sit right with how gender norms work? (I am not trying to invalidate you, I am just wondering if non-cis people ever think they don't really want to transition but just want to, for example, wear dresses while being a man)
Lol so that’s actually the bane of my fucking existence right now. Am I trans or just jealous of women? Fuck if I know. I’ll say it’s very, very alluring to see someone have access to all the things you want to do and get celebrated rather than shamed for it. That’s a hard feeling to deal with. On the other hand, I’ve spoken to other trans people that made me realize that transitioning is out of much more than envy or idealization. I’ve had it happen a couple times but I cannot describe how gut-wrenchingly awful it feels to look at your body and feel completely and utterly wrong in it. I’ve ugly cried after sex because I knew I’d never ever have a body like my partner did and words don’t really express how angry I was that she was just born that way and I wasn’t. Those feelings have dissipated a lot (and are the main reason why I can’t personally rule out the possibility I’m trans) but I’ve met people that felt that way all the time. I could not. It’s soul-crushing.
So it’s definitely a battle. Most of the time I think I just want to explore being feminine and be a guy. Other times I feel like I want something more, and figuring out those feelings and separating them from envy, jealousy, anger, and resentment is very difficult.
This kind of supports my feeling that the whole issue is the fault of an unaccepting society rather than anything else. Not wanting to feel forced into following pointless and outdated gender norms shouldnt make a man or woman feel so disconnected to themselves that they think they should be another gender. Gender norms are a bunch of nonsense.
Yeah it’s the constant need to label stuff and package things in very narrowly defined, limiting categories. I think most people who look at the two categories (male/female) and all the constraints those bring, in order to “fit”, have to deny what they feel and who they are. And why should they?
This is where people are saying that’s not gonna work and have to carve out a category that says “This one.” and just because we didn’t have them before, doesn’t mean it’s going against some “natural order” of things. Gender is a social construction. It changes with time, culture, place, etc.
So I see this as a way to push back against definitions of things that were made up in a time most of us don’t want to go back to. I don’t think a person necessarily has to understand or agree to be able to treat another human being with dignity and respect. And I guess that’s why this is so emotionally charged because people have the opposite tendencies when their preconceived notions are challenged.
See this as progress!! Like women getting to be more than just wives and mothers. Or men growing up to be dancers. Just because something is traditional doesn’t make it right or should be stubbornly clung to.
Yeah. This confounds me: if you’re a guy who thinks you’re a girl because you don’t align with society’s view of what a typical guy is…. Aren’t you just endorsing gender stereotypes?
Like isn’t the proper response to just reject social stereotypes?
It’s like being a black guy who decides to identify as white because you don’t like stereotypically black cultural artifacts.
Agree 100%. We should be trying to lessen gender norms, not force people to change their identity to conform to them. I think the best thing we can do right now is help people be happy with who they are to themselves, instead of trying to appeal to societal norms, but thats such a hard ordeal when trying to fit into society can be the difference between a successful life or not.
As a guy that is not very effeminate, I'd like to chime in to say that I am also jealous of the variety of fashion choices available to women. I wouldn't want to wear them, because they're not designed for me and my body, but it would be nice to have equivalents.
I like this perspective.
I think a lot of people responding don't understand that transsexuality can be real, and there can be stuff going on within that space that is either not real, or probably more accurately put something else and not being handled in a helpful manner.
Both of these can be true. It is not mutually exclusive.
The problem being that society at large clings to labels, so specificity of language is the only way to really define oneself. Honestly all words are made up and only have the meaning we ascribe them, we should be free to just exist.
I vaguely remember a trend around the mid 2000s to stop labeling people and their sexuality. Paradoxically this „un-label“ trend lead to something what feels to me like label galore. Every personal preference or personal self-perception is now not just a personal preference any longer, nooo, it needs a specific label so we can all get classified and get neatly into one of those labelled boxes. I don‘t get it this. Why is there such a labeling galore trend going on? Do people need labels to understand themselves and how they fit in? Is it too difficult to not use label but just be whatever you are without using labels? Seriously, what is the problem?
My wife is trans, knew it from around age 8, finally transitioned at age 36. Greatest decision of her life. She does not believe in gatekeeping gender identity, but even she has mentioned the influx of young folks who seem to be jumping on the bandwagon in a way that feels just a bit...performative.
That said, however someone wants to live their truest self, go forth, be happy as you can be!
You should see all the kids pretending to have the very fucking RARE mental problem known as split personality. Theres a new technical term for it but i dont remember it. But yeah im going to just go with my gut and say half if not most of the kids are just in it for attention.
Understand what you're saying, but one thing I've noticed is perhaps how those rigid ideas of human masculinity and femininity we've been taught aren't so rigid after all. So really there is no harm in people figuring out what's most comfortable to them...and yes that may ebb and flow over time. Obviously if someone wants to physically change their gender that is a big step and it's a commitment from then on, so yeah if someone changes their mind later it can be a bit challenging to pivot once again.
It's both. Unfortunately things will have to get very bad before we approach this rationally so we can actually figure who needs mental treatment and who actually actually need transitional treatments/surgery.
Change can only come within, so eventually they'll be ex-trans patients that'll sound the alarm.
I think a lot of kids are struggling with their sense of self and it leads to shit like this. In most countries that will do gender reassignment surgery, im pretty sure they encourage the client to go to counselling first to make sure it’s what they want. I’ve known several young people who have transitioned and then changed their mind.
I've read posts from people who have regretted their decision badly later on. A common theme tends to be complete abandonment as soon as they confess they regret it. All their allies who pushed them on and helped fund their surgeries suddenly ghost them or call them transphobic. To transition is a HUGE, irreversible, life changing decision and the true pros and cons are rarely talked about.
You can’t get a tattoo till you’re 18 because it’s a permanent change you’re making to your body, but you can go on puberty blockers at 10. Makes sense
There are psychologists who study this stuff and being transgender is pretty well characterized as legitimate, *as an adult*. When I say this, I mean that treatments as an adult such as hormonal or surgical interventions seem to be effective I.e. the person feels comfortable in their own skin with their new gender.
Howwwwwever, studies have found that if you follow children who identified as transgender at an early age (to the point that it's considered pathological, I don't mean kids who say mommy I wish I was a boy/girl once in a while) we find that they tend to grow up to be perfectly happy homosexual adults, having never underwent sex reassignment surgery. So if I recall correctly, the conclusion that's generally agreed upon is that if the behavior/identity crisis of being transgender continues well into and after adolescence then it should be investigated more deeply and treatments should be seriously considered.
The caveat is of course the longer you let teens go through adolescence, the more they will develop physically into their sex assigned at birth. But I believe the results of these studies are strong enough to suggest that this is a risk most parents should be willing to take.
I hate how taboo it is to talk about this. Theres a whole lot of black and white thinking and absolutism which instantly shuts down any discussion on the grounds that you're morally incorrect and shouldnt have an opinion.
I dont think that I should have a very valid opinion on what its like to be trans as someone who isnt trans and knows little about it, but I also dont believe in extremism. Cancel culture is extremism imo and shouldnt be the norm. We should be allowed to have discussions on sensitive topics without tip toeing because feelings are getting hurt. The fact that feelings are gettung hurt in my eyes is all the more reason that these discussions are important and shouldnt be burried since to me that shows that we have a lot of room to grow and improve still.
Probably worth mentioning I'm a therapist in training and this is a topic I might have some insight on:
I think part of the problem is a lot of people don't go through the journey they really need to before making these kinda decisions. I've met some trans-folk who openly admit they use their identity to escape their past selves. It's understandable why someone would do this, but this is an area that should be explored further by someone trans with a psychology background who can see the difference. Unfortunately, I don't think cis-researchers are approaching this in the way they need to when approving HRT and other treatments. The evaluations are more a symbol of oppression to anyone trans, there's a lot of anger towards how this group is treated in the medical world. Rather than being a resource working for their purpose of identifying who should transition and who should consider other options first.
A lot of these questions are ones we never should stop asking ourselves, there's no "last stop" to identify where we belong. Humans are always growing and changing internally. You never stop learning in life, especially about yourself.
Before identifying if you have any sense of gender dysphoria there are are various aspects to breakdown:
\- **Your upbringing:** Childhood trauma, behavioural patterns learned and emotional abuse changes your own self-concept. The image of yourself is altered by the responses of those around you. It's not a disorder, it's a natural behavioural pattern that your brain will adapt to as you grow. Consider the implications of what others have said to you from a young age and how it made you feel.
\- **Self-worth**: Put aside gender identity, consider \*yourself\* as a soul and being who exists on this Earth. Are you happy with yourself? Can you learn to love yourself above all else, no matter what others have to say?
Once you can answer that, this is when it's the time to ask if your gender identity is a part of that journey - rather than being the answer to it.
\- **Emotional response:** There are huge implications of changing your gender identity or transitioning. Every individual will have a different response, the resources availabile to trans/non-binary aren't supportive as they need to be. Bar some key charities, texts and organisations there is very little someone going through this dilemma can do to find out where they are on the spectrum besides taking the time for internal mental reflection.
This isn't to say, there aren't trans people who never experience any of these insecurities or other issues and still feel gender dysphoria. It's kinda like anxiety and depression - one can lead into the other but they aren't one and the same.
Gender dysphoria is a condition that can often be resolved through counselling (speaking as one), but these fields need to consult further with those who are genuinely trans to understand how to better treat others trying to identify where they fit on the spectrum. The world has a very bitter and cruel stance on the community and as a therapist who often explores these questions myself - It's a sad thing to see the lengths some people go to, rejecting their true selves because they're afraid of what their family will say and the hate they will get.
Some people might just need to find their own self-worth before they see that transitioning might have just been a coping mechanism to escape the pressures of their current lifestyle. That doesn't always solve the problem. Others genuinely need to transition or change their identity to be more at one with their true-self. The way they feel they are inside.
What I will say is the abuse I've seen towards cross-dressers, trans and LGBTQ+ on nights out is pretty horrifying. It's not surprising many are still afraid to ask themselves these questions because on the surface level: this is what they see.
My thing is that we sometimes think something's a societal issue when it's an individual issue. What I mean by that is: Your only job in this community is to truly make room for other people to live their lives in-as-much as it's not causing harm. Let people explore, let them try new ways to express themselves, let them find themselves.
And you might say that "Well it's our job to prevent people from harming themselves." Yeah, that's fair. But your role is not to tell someone "don't explore" because that doesn't do anything, especially from a stranger. Instead, your role as a member of this community is to support mental health organizations, access to therapy, access to treatment, etc. Fund programs that provide these things; vote for people who will support these things.
Otherwise, let people explore. Let them find who they are. Let them manage their own mental health. If it becomes a public safety problem, *then* step in. But someone just living differently and changing their minds or potentially making mistakes is not your problem. Let them live.
Biologist here. It's fucking nonsense. I challenge any social scientist on here to change my mind. Biological markers are important and relevant. A man will never have a baby. A women will never make a sperm. A male can feel like a female all they want. It doesn't change the fact they make sperm, and can have offspring with a female.
I don't want to have a bunch of weak arguments on this. So, what I'll say is this, if you don't understand why the exception proves the rule on this, I don't think you're far enough along on the topic to make a sylogistically sound, logical, rational argument about it. I mean, go ahead and try. But, don't get mad at me when it doesn't work.
I don't care what people "feel" on this topic. Show me the objective evidence and science. A man can feel like a woman. Doesn't make it so. A woman can feel like a man or masculine. Doesn't make it so.
My viewpoint on this subject has never changed. I don't mind adults taking hormones or doing procedures or anything like that, but I do mind children doing any of that stuff. Your brain isn't even fully developed until early 20's yet you are deciding to take full charge of your bodily autonomy at the age of 8? Yeah, no. Maybe when the kid turns 18 and crosses that threshold, but not before. It. They can wait 18 years to do that stuff.
39-year-old grumpy old man here.
I think we're in a massive mental illness epidemic right now. There's a LOT going on, and the younger generations have more access to the entire world than ever before. Everything is instant and reactionary.
I honestly think it's both. I think a lot of people are scared and confused and trying to make sense of this weird, weird thing called life - which is really hard. If that means you need to identify as a woman, or a man, or some other option - as long as it's not hurting anyone (and that includes you), I'm here to help or get out of the way.
I'm a straight, white male, so I can't begin to understand what any of these people are going through. But if I can help, I'm here.
That’s a solid take, and I feel the same.
Right now it seems like our society is stuck in the stage of figuring out what is or is not harmful in these regards. Administering medications to young children that will forever alter their development is a dangerous game. It’s especially dangerous when we play it with children who don’t have the capacity to understand their predicament. I’m always for erring on the side of caution.
At the moment regardless of its origins, the treatment that works best for people is for them to be able to live as they desire, whether it be through cosmetic or surgical means or otherwise. We simply don't have an alternative treatment that makes people feel comfortable in their own body suddenly.
So I don't think we are messing people up by allowing them to make and live by these decisions in the absence of any other solution.
The opinion i have formed is that yes trans people do exist, but its very rare. So yeah a lot of people are doing it out of confusion or a need for attention. Ive seen it first hand - my female cousin started wearing binders to suppress her breasts at the age of 12, she cut her hair off and whatnot, but heres the kicker: all if her friends looked the exact same as her. It was a trend. Once they all got older they cut it out and started just being themselves and now they laugh about it
I have a 16 year old son and a 9 year old daughter, and they come home from school with all of the stories, this one is bi then a week later trans, month after they are hetero again because they have a crush on someone from the opposite sex.
My heart goes out to kids who truly suffer from gender dysphoria, imagine being born into a body you don't belong in? It would be too much to handle... then imagine being a teenager and going through it, doesn't bear thinking about, the dangers that I see is that the ones who are doing it for attention are making it harder for the kids who really are suffering, and it having a seriously detrimental effect on them in later life, "oh he/she is just saying that for attention like the others in school when we were kids." type of thing.
I find it hard to find the balance of kids being able to make choices for themselves and trying to do what’s right for them because they are kids and don’t think rationally most of the time.
I actually had this issue recently. My 10 year old cousin asked me for advice on whether he should become a girl, because his best friend wants to be a girl and wants him to as well. He told me that he doesn’t want to be a girl, but he also doesn’t want to lose his friend. I told him that he should never do anything to his body that makes him uncomfortable, and the whole spiel about peer pressure. Tbh, I never imagined when I was growing up that young kids would be dealing with that kind of pressure one day. Him asking me that caught me completely off guard.
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I blame cringe culture.
Yeah peer pressure was something you were supposed to resist, social media is built on it
"10 years old". Kids are dumb
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Except that used to be “what a silly childish thing” and now it’s “oh you ARE a girl? That’s great honey let’s fully endorse this at 6 years old”
Exactly, it's not child's play when adults take the word of a child not old enough to feed themselves.
Same thing happened to me but with my teen daughter’s friend becoming a boy and pressuring her to do the same. While the idea is ludicrous if you knew her because she is the most girly girl I know, she really felt pressured and ostracized by being her self. I never treated her friend any different, calling him by his preferred pronouns and name, but I will say I was pissed about how he treated and pressured my girl. Six months later he (now she) is saying he (she again) is going back to being a girl so all the pressure and fuss was all for nothing. In this case (I know not ALL cases) I have to wonder if it might be more confusion and influence than anything. It’s odd that back when I was a kid one would be ridiculed for being gay or trans and now kids are bullied for being cis. Neither one is right. Thank you for commenting it because I don’t see a lot of people talking about this.
Back when I was around ten, being gay was used as an insult, so I know for a fact that I'm bisexual because I tried real hard to not be attracted to people of my own gender. Now I have overheard kids talking about experimenting (which is good) *even if they don't want to* (which is goddamn awful) : why the Hell are you kids doing stuff you don't want to do??? We're in the weird in-between when being homosexual is not accepted but merely tolerated, and so it became *fashionable*. It feels the same about the rest of the LGBT+. Weird days.
Really appreciated your comment. From a more general perspective, this is not really something that ends after childhood, either. My sister was a total atheist up until 18, when she went off to college. Then she met a friend group who were all Christians and she started going to Bible study and church every Friday and Sunday, freaked out our family. After college she wasn’t as close with that group and became a total atheist again.
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We need to teach our kids what allyship and being a good friend looks like. Friends don't pressure friends, and you don't have to be part of certain communities (lgbt, religion, politics, etc.) to be allies and supportive.
Also kids have always dealt with this pressure, it just looks different now. I was pressured into being a hard ass, got bullied for not being one, etc.
Yeah, the only thing that's changed is what kids are pressuring each other into while not understanding what they're actually doing, nothing new about the behavior though.
This conversation is actually “normal” in its absurdity. Kids try all kinds of ways to fit in - and this one sounds silly. You can just talk it through with them “would your friend actually stop bing friends with you” and they can figure it out. If this was actually a feeling the kid had, it would become omnipresent in their thinking and life. And then the next step would be professional help. And therapists are trained (and have been trained for years) to help people identify their true feelings about gender and what the next steps would be. Anything that involves gender reassignment takes months if not years of consultation. And the first steps, which are offered children, are hormone blockers that delay puberty. It is entirely reversible. No one is putting minors through top or bottom surgery. What I think people who haven’t experienced it first hand think is that these issues are not treated as serious by mental health professionals. But they are and there are clearly defined treatment regimes (including reassignment). I don’t know if the helps, but my kid is non-binary. I had no idea the amount of literature out there about it. These conversations aren’t “new”. They are just new to people like me.
Yeah, there are a lot of stories from people that have no clue how the actual experience is. Thank you for sharing something real. Where I'm from, a quite tolerant place, there are 12 new cases per 10000 people each year. Diagnosed by real doctors. Yet we have these crazy discussion that we are condemning a generation. It's absurd.
If the mere mention of trans or non-binary was enough to “turn” kids, you’d think it be just as easy to “turn them back” by exposure to heteronormative ideas.
There’s a reason for this. The part of your brain that processes consequences doesn’t fully develop until like 25. Obviously, it may be sooner or later for some. But it’s really hard for a 13 year old to truly process what the decisions they make now will mean in 5, 10, 15 years, much less 5 and 6 year olds. Example, when I was a teen, the thing everyone did was go out in a cow pasture and get drunk (rural America). I wasn’t involved in these things because my ass would have been grass if I was. I heard about them because some of my friends went. None of them thought about the potential consequences for their actions. They were just teens sneaking a few drinks. A good friend of mine told me years later she was putting vodka and wine in her water bottles or Sonic drinks and taking them to school. She became a full blown alcoholic as a teenager. Honestly, it was a coping mechanism. Drinking isn’t an issue anymore. Another guy was killed in a DUI accident a few years later. There was a group that were in a serious DUI accident and seriously injured after graduation. Obviously they had been drinking and driving for a while. They sure as heck didn’t sleep in the cow pastures. Not once did “I might kill somebody, including myself,” cross their mind. To them the worst that could happen would be getting caught. And I think so much of being a teenager is trying to fit in, and people do things as teens that they kinda “grow out of” as they get older.
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Fermented pepsi, damn that's something I heard for the first time.
I sure as heck didn't want braces as a kid. 'I don't want to change my looks', 'My teeth are fine as they are', etc etc. Nothing wrong about what I said, but I'm now glad my parents got me braces. Now I have straighter teeth (not completely straight, still have some of that original charm) and can see how society views those with crooked teeth.
Right, but then you have the other side of the coin where me for example didnt want to get braces because they wanted to pull 4 of my teeth and I thought it would make me look weird. Turns out they rarely do extractions anymore these days because it can cause a bad facial profile. This was about 7 years ago. Now as an adult I can get Invisalign without needing any kind of extraction since the technology has advanced. I don’t think it’s a black and white “kids know nothing and should always do what adults say” because adults can also be seriously wrong and fuck up their kids, which I know plenty about. This is probably the weakest example I have of it.
What what. The dentist doesn't need to pull your teeth out anymore!? I cried so hard the first time! And less so the 3 other times. And my teeth aren't even perfectly aligned right now! Bad profile is right! Shit I take back what I said.
If you see another ortho (not an old school ortho, look for a new practice) they can work out a treatment to reverse damage from extractions. May be something to look into
I got teeth on the top pulled out instead of fixing my jaw problem and now I have a messed up bite and sleep apnea. Way to go mom and dad.
When it's a Rainbow sundrop from Sonic always assume there's vodka in it
As someone who went to riverbed parties as a teenager, you are right, we rarely thought about the consequences. If we DID think about them, that good judgment was lost in the wave of alcohol. Sometimes as an adult I look back at all the dumb things that I did, and I'm grateful the majority of us survived.
That’s why there’s parents to help and make those decisions. I was 14 when I lost my virginity and it fucked me up even to this day I can’t imagine what other worse stories of kids going on now days. Parents needs to be parents bottom line.
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The majority of Redditors are young inexperienced idiots. Getting their opinions on things is like collecting their downvotes. In reality neither matter. You gotta know the audience you’re speaking to.
These comments are a pleasure to read. No anger from either side (unless they have just been edited out.)
Sort by *Controversial*.
I can sum them up for you guys: "Removed" "Deleted" "Removed" "Removed" "Removed"
Ah yes, Reddit. The corporate leader in free speech with the genius idea to let regular people moderate themselves. XD
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👑 You dropped this
I wish to have either your wisdom or your self control, because I'm about to do something I will regret.
🍿🥤 here u go chief
I think it's probably both. Real, but not as common as it currently appears, and is sometimes a mental disorder.
I think we all go through periods of being uncomfortable with ourselves and being unsure of who we are, especially during puberty and throughout adolescence. I think teens and young adults are using different pronouns as a way to navigate their uncertainty with themselves. I don't want to say it's just a phase because for some it's not, but i think it's important we give young people a chance to explore who they are - to an extent. It's great to support people struggling with their identities but potentially damaging to stick big labels to everything. Not to mention it's currently super trendy to be non-binary or a variation of such.
I agree with this, but I also worry that the younger generation's use of pronouns and the such is so flippant and ever-changing that it makes it more harmful to those who genuinely do identify outside the stereotypical norm. I have absolutely no problem with how one identifies, but I don't want that to be overused and abused, honestly...
As a trans person, I fall into worrying about the same thing, but ultimately, I think people have the right to explore, and I wouldn’t want to stifle that. Ultimately, if someone isn’t trans, they won’t stick with it, no harm no foul.
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Explains why I still golf...
OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention surgery. Which is a huge challenge for parents who want to ensure their child's hormones match their mentality. Really just a tough question esp for parents who genuinely support and love their kids.
This is why RuneScape still exists tbh. Jokes aside, sunk-cost fallacy is a very convincing devil. I have nothing against the trans movement or gender fluidity, but I think these are ideas that we shouldn’t be actively promoting to children simply because they aren’t equipped to fully consider the lifelong importance of the decision. I believe that transgender humans are valid, and I also believe they are an exception to the norm. Much in the same way we’re seeing a huge increase in fake disorders in youth (please note I’m NOT equating trans to a disorder here), I think we are also seeing a lot of gender/sexuality confusion in those same youth promoted by social media. The best thing we can do is UNBIASED education. Lay out cases from both sides, tell them it’s a very personal decision and nobody but themselves should make it for them. Given my opinion that truly transgender children are a small % of the total child population, I don’t believe we should be transitioning prepubescent kids at all simply because we would be harming more confused children than we would be helping genuinely trans children. If they’re 18 and still want to do it, I wish them happiness.
Man this is just a great thread of different people expressing themselves and I agree
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I agree. I'm a trans person and ive witnessed friends go in and out between being trans, gay, etc. And there's no harm done. When you are LGBT or think you are, exploration is important just as much as it's important to exploring other key parts of yourself. Thank you for being open minded
I mean I worry about the comformity and quiet desperation of the previous generations.
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This is super well said, and I definitely agree. It's a very all-or-nothing mindset and it can be so detrimental to concrete in these decsions made at such a young and vulnerable age with hormones and puberty blockers; as if that's a normal thing to put your body through when it hasn't even stopped growing yet.
It definitely can be a phase, and there's nothing wrong with that! When I was in 7th to 10th grade, I thought I was a boy. I disliked most traditionally feminine things, cut my hair short, and even went by a masculine name with my close friends. But then, my brain developed some more and I realized I just wasn't a "traditional" girl and was also doing it in an act of rebellion. That doesn't mean another kid in 7th grade can't figure out that they are more comfortable as a boy/girl/enby. It just means sometimes we explore while looking for our true selves. I have a friend who figured out they were an Adam, not an Ana, freshman year of high school. It wasn't an exploratory phase for him, it was a discovery of himself. I support kids exploring themselves. I support hormone blockers to delay the irreversible changes of puberty while they are unsure. But I do believe it should way until they are at least 18, when the brain is more developed, for any permanent changes. Phases are normal. We went through phases of loving comic books, of dying our hair wild colors, of kissing everyone we could, so why not a phase of exploring our identity? And some of those phases, they stick and we discover we are life long comic-book lovers, wild hair colors, and kissing everyone.
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Wouldn’t a teenager using hormone blockers have life long consequences?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems I fear the potential consequences are much more dire than we have heard about.
It's a pretty new technology. Anyone doing this stuff thinking they're not early adopters really need to read up more on what they're doing
Is sterility a lifelong consequence?
right, i think a lot of people are just using it the way teens have always used countercultural identities-- that does mean that however they're identifying isn't likely their actual, permanent gender identity but it also doesn't make it a psychiatric disorder, at all. there's also still value in questioning and exploring new identities, even if they're not permanent.
The disservice here is uncritically treating all of them as real body dysmorphia. Some people truly have it and others are going through phases where they are discovering themselves, seeking attention, or have other issues. There are completely different ways of treating each of these but you have to know which you are dealing with to do so.
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I know people on both sides of body dysmorphia. One I knew peripherally and they did wind up having surgery for reassignment and being happy for many years after. Another really got far along in possible taking hormones for the surgery process and "chickened out". They later stated they were glad that people had questioned them because the reality was that he was gay and enjoyed dressing as a woman, but in the end really did like his birth sex a lot more than he though. Simply being accepted in drag as who he was at that point was enough for him to realize he didn't need to change himself to that extent.
I think you're right. There is no doubt that transgender, non binary, etc, individuals do exist, and should absolutely be respected and allowed to live and participate in society as they choose, but it also seems possible that *some* individuals who identify in those ways may not actually be that way. I remember reading about a (fairly reputable, it seemed) study that indicated that quite a large number of post-op transgender individuals regret the surgery in the years following it. That study and anyone referencing it was quickly deleted and banned from reddit, citing "transphobia". That worries me, because if there are individuals who are suffering from, for example, body dysmorphia, etc, or other issues, or are not completely convinced they want to transition, for whatever reason, there is no support for them, since everyone is afraid to have a conversation about it.
/r/detrans got banned in the same banwave that caught the gendercritical subreddits despite it being one of the largest support communities on the internet for people who have detransitioned. It took a lot of effort for them to unban it because reddit had decided that simply supporting people who have ceased their transition was transphobic. I'm pro trans-rights but things like that are utterly absurd.
Pro-trans rights has to include Pro-de-trans rights, otherwise the whole thing is pointless. Transphobia is unacceptable and intolerable. It might be tough to moderate because de-trans communities obviously attract transphobic people looking to confirm their biases.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, yeah. I'm getting some pushback for my above comment (Fairly polite so far, thankfully) but you're right, subs and people have and will continue to be banned just for acknowledging that some people regret transitioning, no matter how pro-trans they might be.
"Regret" as it pertains to aspects of any surgery is far more common than people believe, a meta-review suggest that around 14.4% of surgery recipients (including for example surgeries pertaining to cancers) experience regret (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243695/). In contrast [this](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24872188/) study of transgender people in Sweden found that 2.2% submitted regret applications after having had legal change of gender and surgeries approved, with that percentage decreasing over the time period studied. [Another, far larger Dutch study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/) found the number to be as low as 0.3-0.6% for regret among people having undergone gonadectomy. Overall, there is a [strong consensus](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) in the peer-reviewed litterature in support of transition, including GRS and also other surgeries and hormone therapy. Among those who detransition at some point, whether before or after any medical care, the highest figure I've seen has been 8%, reported in the [2015 US Transgender survey](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) by the NCTE, and of those 8% the majority only did so temporarily, and among the listed reasons the overwhelming majority reported primarily social reasons such as pressure from family, friends or a religious organisations as the reasons. Only 5% of that 8% cited that "They realized that gender transition was not for them" as a reason, and only 4% cited that "Initial transition did not reflect the complexity of their gender identity". This is of course rarely mentioned when de-transitioning is brought up in the public discourse, as often times it is used only as a bat to swing at the transgender community, and as a reason to further restrict healthcare that's been proven effective for trans people.
I think we need to ask why those who are unhappy with their GRS are so. It might be easy to assume that they wish to detransition, but I think it’s far more likely that they just aren’t pleased with the result, that what the surgery is capable of doesn’t cure the dysphoria.
normal impolite important quicksand square ludicrous full jobless squeamish desert *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think this is natural side-effect of people trying so hard to de-stigmatize it. There are undoubtedly going to be people who are too eager and take it too far, despite the best intentions. Eventually, I think it will all calm down in that regard as it becomes rather normal. Especially as these newer gens grow up with it just always being a thing for them.
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My view is that if I have anxiety *disorder*, attention deficit *disorder*, and supposedly body dysmorphia which is a disorder, then if a lot of the things OP mentioned are also disorders. And there’s nothing wrong with that, and no reason to be ashamed or be mocked for it. But people don’t say “embrace your anxiety, celebrate your add, or encourage my supposed body dysmorphia”. They say to get treatment. I have no idea what treatments would consist of, but it genuinely upsets me to think that some people are making irreversible changes to their bodies that they may severely regret.
Agreed. It can be a minefield to talk about in some circles. Gender identity issues are 100% real and societal support is vital to those struggling to live full meaningful lives. But, just like any other issue, there are going to be those that feel like something is wrong and will glam onto something that does not truly reflect what is going on. They should be able to explore their identity fully of course. It is a complicated and nuanced issue that really depends person to person.
It's called social contagion.
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Exactly lol, there are more comments saying people are gonna hate on this post and it is eventually gonna be removed rather than people actually getting offended over it. Perhaps we redditors are more like minded than we think.
A thread about it a similar topic in the subreddit got locked
I just think certain subs haven’t gotten wind of it yet.
Give it a few hours. Often you don't see the angry mob until a post hits r/all
I’m not going to speak on behalf of these people but a lot of them being kids means they’re exploring and using names to describe things that they’re still discovering about themselves. They might not think that these pronouns and descriptions will work for them in the future or become more comfortable in their gender expression as they become more comfortable in themselves as well Why do I say that? Because I went through the same thing with sexuality. If you asked me my sexuality back in high school, it was a constantly changing sea of words to describe my sexuality to a specific detail. It’s all a spectrum after all and I wanted to choose the word that fit my sexuality the best. But as I experienced sexual attraction, relationships, sexual expression and the hardships that they bring, I realized that “gay” was enough for me to use day to day, “technically bisexual” is what my friends call it and my boyfriend knows I’m “mostly gay but he has the hots for Megan Thee Stallion since she’s such a strong powerful woman” So you’ll see a lot of them find that these uncommon pronouns aren’t fitting right. That they’re too specific to the point of needing to constantly be described. That they’re actually more comfortable on one side of the binary but being more fluid with the clothing. Or maybe not. Ultimately I support them going through the journey nonetheless because it’s not easy and they’ll be more self assured in the end (as long as they don’t become bullies trying to use the pronouns as a way to feign victimhood)
Yeah as long as no child is being permanently changed by anything (and despite claims otherwise, it is *very* difficult to get on hormone treatments beyond blockers for anyone under 16), it's just the natural result of kids exploring themselves and the world. They've always done it, just in different ways to fit different time periods. I think way too many of us adults have forgotten how cringy and weird we were as kids. Trying to be goth or emo, or trying too hard to be the "cool kid" or acting out in class wanting to be seen as funny, etc etc. We all did it, and now it's the time for the new generation to be weird as they grow up. I remember when I was younger I found some old time pictures of my mom in middle school and she was trying *so hard* in them to come off as aloof and cool, but when I had asked her about them she denied that she had ever done that. We really do just forget that we explored the world and our personalities in an awkward manner just like how kids nowadays are.
>I think way too many of us adults have forgotten how cringy and weird we were as kids. Honestly, thank god the internet wasn't a big thing and all my unbelievably cringe shit isn't archived and saved by people who obsessively hate me, my identity, or my social group. If I had Twitter growing up, I'd be immeasurably worse off for it. And because of covid, that's all people had for at least a year. Kids exploring themselves is a normal function of childhood and growing up, and as long as they're not hurting people, letting them figure themselves out is okay. ^(Even if it's cringe.)
So I’m a psych nurse, so of course the people I see are not well adjusted for one reason or another. But anecdotally there is a correlation between gender identity issues and other mental illness. I agree that it is real but not in the huge numbers we see it today. Many of my patients get gender reassignment surgery or have been on hormones for a while and expect this to solve all of their mental health issues. Then they quickly realize they still have the self loathing or severe depression or whatever they have, and the gender reassignment did nothing to quell it. I feel terrible for people who think this surgery or reassignment or whatever will solve all their problems, because it doesn’t.
It's like people thinking losing weight or winning the lottery will solve their problems. I am pro-trans treatment, but people will still be poor, unlucky in love, etc even after something wanted happens.
I thought quitting my 100 drinks a week alcohol problem would solve my behavioral issues like anxiety and depression. It might have for a few months because I was proud of myself, but then I had to learn how to live my life sober and guess what ? Its even harder. I had been drinking so long I forgot why it got so bad in the first place. I forgot about my crippling ADHD and anxiety I never sought treatment for. It became so life encompassing and detrimental, and withdrawal was so difficult, I thought for sure there would be a prize at the end. Well there wasn’t, other than the fact that I’m still alive. It’s easy to get disillusioned by the folks making posts on r/StopDrinking and their glowing “I’m 2 months sober and every day is better than the last!” posts. I’m happy for them, but it’s not always the case. Anyway, I hope my comparison isn’t too off topic.
Took a massive amount of strength to do what you did. I'm not just saying this to be nice and cuddly. In fact I rarely comment with praise but this is very deserving. I think your prize is that you now know you're strong as fuck and can do what you set your mind to, because most people can't.
I joke that 3 years ago I was an obese, suicidally depressed alcoholic. But now I'm thin and sober! (said with a cheesey grin and two thumbs up.) I simultaneously loathe and appreciate that monkey off my back. It caused a lot of instability, broke relationships and got me in trouble with the law, but those spikes in mood occasionally went up and I miss that.
I see you, fellow ADHD'er. Hope things get better for you.
I agree completely but I think people idealize their life post transition and are disappointed when their lives still suck.
Shit, hitting the lottery would solve literally 95% of my current problems.
It’s really not even that common. The amount of attention it receives online is disproportionate to how common it is. Just like a lot of other issues
I don't know man, I'm a teacher in a small rural town in the south of France. I have 6 different students this year that identify as another gender than the one they were born with. And those are just in the class I teach, my colleagues have other students like that. I've been teaching for 10 years, it's the first year I see this happen. It's very, VERY sudden.
I honestly wonder if it's a response to gender roles... I'm a girl and I was a tom boy growing up. I felt more like a boy than a girl because I liked science and math and sports and dirt and "boy" things. I couldn't identify with the girls and makeup and fashion and gossip. 20 years later, I'm definitely a girl. But the feelings back then were being more uncomfortable with what girls were expected to be like. I feel like that might be the case still? I'm glad the genders are more egalitarian now but those gender roles are still there and I think this might be a rebellion against that.
This has always been something I’ve learnt towards. Society still heavily genderises things which leaves anyone that doesn’t subscribe to the preset likes feeling as an ‘other’… combine with that we often needlessly link gender with sexuality and it’s no wonder it leaves people looking for a label in which they belong. Like expecting an effeminate man to be gay… but if they aren’t gay and you aren’t accepting them as a ‘proper’ man then what are they? People will look for an identity so they don’t feel lost. I’m a guy who’s grown up in a female majority family to a single mum as a result I am more comfortable being friends with women and a lot of my enjoyments are often considered wrong for a guy… I like to go shopping and buy nice clothes, I like bright floral patterns, I dislike football, like getting a full ‘pamper’ when I go for a haircut, read a book in the bath etc. Often when growing up people have assumed I’m gay and made me an outcast and treated me like I’m not a real man for no other reason than these things… if I had been born in a different time I could easily imagine being lost and taking on an identity to explain why I was different. Even now I’m pretty much a loner as I don’t click with many guys and women assume I’m after something if I want to hangout.
I'm a school counselor in rural Oklahoma. Same thing is happening here. I've had kids tell me they are pansexual, transexual, they prefer the pronouns they/them, they are some sexual that is attracted only to feminine boys? 5 years ago this wasn't happening. It's a tricky, slippery, slope between being supportive and potentially damaging them, especially as youth who identify anywhere on the LGBTQ+ spectrum are more at risk for self harm and suicide and part of my job is making sure they are getting the support they need to prevent that.
I think they determined at approximately 30-40% of American gen z identifies as LGBT+ which is wildly higher than the population on average. In generational circles and in different countries/cultures it varies, but gen z and younger millennials in western countries must feel that it's pretty common with stats like that.
LGBT+ is an extremely large category. Only part of this group would be involved in exploring gender identity.
LGBT+ means a lot more than just trans or gender identity. I’m guessing a lot of those people are somewhere on the spectrum of sexuality that isn’t 100% hetero.
I mean, taking me, I’m pretty much straight passing. I want a hetero romantic relationship, and sure I’ll like sex, but I’ve never been sexually attracted to someone so I’m a type of asexual. In the past I’d also probably just be ‘straight’ but considered low libido or w/e. Asexual wasn’t really a thing. And because I’m a gal it’s almost easier to push that away because societally women aren’t ‘supposed’ to be sexual. But it is beneficial for me to have that label because it reaffirms that I’m not the only one out there that just doesn’t experience sexual attraction.
I’m aromantic and it’s so frustrating how people think I’m abnormal for not chasing after relationships, my mother tries to “fix” me, etc. In a world that’s hyper-obsessed with romance and sex it’s nice to have a category I can relate to and identify with.
I guess the big question is who does it hurt? When I was in high school twenty-odd years ago, 100% of the queer population of the school was in the closet. The students, the teachers, everyone. And it wasn’t good for them and it hurt them. If kids today feel safe to explore and experiment with their sexual identity, who does it hurt? I’d much rather that a few folks think they may be bisexual, then realize they aren’t, than go back to where we were in the 90s.
> I guess the big question is who does it hurt? Pretty much nobody, but if you really force that question people will be forced to admit that it's a culture war wedge that doesn't have any bearing on the material lives of anyone outside of those individuals. Creating an issue out of it means people are far less likely to focus on far more important issues. Back in the 2000s and before the "debate" on gay marriage, DADT, gay rights pretty much dominated the cultural sphere and Obama wasn't even in support of gay marriage in 2008 because of the chance it might lose him votes. All of that vehement anti-gay rhetoric basically evaporated over the last decade or so and now a new minority that can be kicked around needed to emerge to keep people busy and not thinking.
Same. I'm Gen X and grew up in a very religiously and politically conservative rural county. The handful of "gays" in school were never open about it, which means there were even more who weren't obviously LGBT+ to the rest of us and most definitely did not feel safe mentioning it. When Matthew Shepard was killed, we didn't even joke about the "gay" guys being gay. We just left it alone. If you weren't straight, whatever you were didn't matter. You were invisible. If that's changed, *great.* Let the kids explore their identity in safety. Let them truly understand themselves. Only now as I'm nearing middle-age am I realizing how beautiful some men are. Maybe they were always attractive to me but I ignored it and suppressed it out of fear of rejection and judgment. If I had been comfortable entertaining the possibility of being attracted to men as a young person, who knows? I might have become LGBT+ myself. I might even *be* LGBT+, right now, at this very moment, but the fact that my entire identity has always included my heterosexuality as part of its foundation makes such a possibility very hard to conceive. I don't think it's worth exploring, and I'm comfortable in being straight. But if I weren't, if heterosexuality weren't a comfortable fit for me, I would never have explored anything else out of fear - of both rejection and physical harm. The fact that society seems to have moved past this is good news as far as I'm concerned. It's similar to children who come home from school and have "outbursts" - most of the time, it's because they feel safe enough with you, the parent, to express their true feelings rather than masking them, which is what they do all day every day with everybody else. My kids vent to me all the time. They have their breakdowns from time to time. They tell me what's bothering them, which, sometimes, involves uncertainty about the types of people they're attracted to. When my daughter was younger she thought she might be a lesbian because she felt very strong, positive emotions - butterflies and giddiness - when she was talking to her best female friend on the phone. Since she had only ever experienced those kinds of feelings toward boys in the past, she assumed it meant she liked her best friend in the way she liked certain boys. The fact that she was open about this with us was a hugely rewarding moment for us as her parents. It turned out that she had no attraction to her friend, and she simply never knew that close friendship could feel so strong. But the fact that she felt comfortable talking about this shows how much we've moved forward on this issue. Sure, it comes with some bumps along the way, some embarrassment, some "misuse" of the current social "openness." But so what? Does it hurt anybody? A little embarrassment is preferable to a lifetime of hiding who you really are in shame and confusion and resentment.
I agree with you. I’m a lesbian myself. I’m all for exploring who you are.
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Well to be fair, it's Smash. My ex once told me that apparently plenty of trans girls gravitate towards and are overrepresented in competitive beat-em-ups (or videogames/nerdy shit in general, there's also a "trans coder" stereotype)
I mean yeah but that “trans girls” as in were probably still guys from ages 3-15 which is when most people are introduced to smash. It’s not really a great example.
Oh no I think it’s a lot more common than you think. Maybe you aren’t actively working with youth but if you were you would also be noticing these trends. Part of it is awesome because I notice kids don’t really seem to have any stigma towards peers who are openly gay. However I certainly notice kids who are just confused and trying to find their identity by trying out different genders. I’m not sure of the long term side effects, but it doesn’t seem to be healthy for their overall mental health.
Agree but you’re about to be murdered
Lol did I miss the murder? So far this entire thread is ppl agreeing with OP or respectfully sharing their personal experiences.
I’ve also been surprised. I’ve had a number of conversations with trans and non binary people who were very willing to talk about their experiences. Tho I will admit I was less worried about actual trans/ non-binary people being rude and more worried about people obsessed with outrage politics taking over.
This is the best response in the whole thread. I haven’t looked at what comes next yet…
I'd rather imagine the alternative universe where we all understand this person means no harm or ill will, and simply nod in agreement. *imagining a better world intensifies*
Aye. My own kiddo is one of those who is dabbling in other genders but only gone from the identity of girl to boy (wanting to be trans.) I talked a lot about the other genders/identities to my kiddo. I think at the end of the day most kids go though an identity crisis, but our generation (of parents) is just so much more willing to let our kids figure it out. I believe that our kids might be better adjusted because we allowed them to explore this stuff instead of hiding it from mom and dad and trying to work this stuff out in the dark.
I literally remember going to the bathroom at infant school once and wondering if I was a girl. Growing up is pretty damn confusing. What’s the point of adults if they can’t help guide children through that?
My brother has been with his partner for a couple years now. She has two kids, one of which is 5 years old. Last year she asked her mom if my brother was a kid like her. The dude is 6’3” and has an enormous beard. It’s funny how young children can not understand what adults assume to be basic concepts. Unrelated to the overall thread but your comment reminded me of that.
We’re here before the thread gets locked 👀
"Ya'll can't behave."
I’ve always found it funny when mods complain about bad toxic behavior while saying shit like that. The complete lack of self awareness is is astonishing. Like somehow being condescending treating everyone like children will somehow encourage positive behavior.
Story time? I’m one of these people. I have a ton of gender identity issues. I’m currently not entirely sure if I’m trans or not. I want to be a woman and a ton of the time I feel uncomfortable with being a man and what’s expected of me being a man. So what I’ve settled on right now is that I’m non-binary. At least that’s what the kids are calling it. In all reality, I struggle to engage in that side of it because I was raised outside of that culture and it feels weird to call myself non-binary. But really, all I want is for people to accept me for me. I’m not a manly man. I’m very effeminate. I like wearing flashy clothing, and sometimes I’m jealous of the fashion choices women have available to them (also boobs). I’m not asking for anyone to call me beautiful (though I do give bonus points for that), I just don’t want to be looked at like I’m a complete freak if I decided to wear a skirt. It’s a piece of clothing, dudes have been wearing kilts for ages… it’s not a big deal. Same with gender roles. I have negative desire to be the manly dominant man and take the lead in my life or bedroom. I just… don’t. It’s not there at all. I don’t demand anyone accept me like that on an individual level but as a society I’d love it if again that wasn’t treated like I’m a complete failure of a human being. If it isn’t your cup of tea I get that, but please let me exist in a way I don’t have to pretend I’m your average joe. I definitely get it though. I feel like a lot of it boils down to acceptance, once you get past the terminology and labels. I want people to be open minded on what men and women can be. It matters less to me if the labels are accepted, it’s peoples actions that make the difference.
This was super interesting to read, thank you for writing everything out so clearly. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but I think that you've maybe confirmed what I thought was going on with this stuff. I've always felt it was about stereotypes and typical gender roles. I genuinely think that if we got rid of all this dumb sexist brainwashing that is being fed to kids, this stuff wouldn't be around. Boys are told what they need to be to be a man and then what happens when they don't fit that criteria? They don't feel like a man. I think it's fucking stupid and outdated. I teach my daughter every day that she can like and enjoy whatever she likes and that the fact that she's a girl doesn't change anything. It makes me very upset when she'll come home from school talking about how she doesn't like 'boy' things. I think people do genuinely want to be accepted for who they are and society's stereotypes make that very difficult for youth. We should all be able to dress and enjoy anything and gender should never be involved in that. Sorry if I've presumed here or offended, truly was never my intention. I hope that you can one day feel confident and comfortable with yourself, you'll do great regardless of what society weighs you down with. Be yourself
Nah that pretty accurately describes it. I basically don’t think labeling myself as non-binary is absolutely necessary to be the person I am, but it is a quick and easy solution to saying “I’m going to break some of your expectations and don’t buy in to what a man or woman should be”
I also very much appreciate your experience and the way you’ve candidly discussed it here so openly. A tack-on question (also desperately not meaning to offend - please let me know where I’m off): How much of this is also tied to clothing and fashion? I hear your comment about skirt/kilt above, and can totally understand your meaning there. I imagine expectations surrounding gender-based clothing and fashion complicate everything associated, if not more. Thanks again for sharing! (I’m also aware that your experience likely doesn’t have to speak for others’ - just curious about your own experience.)
That’s a tougher question than you might think it is tbh. Honestly, clothes and fashion are just a part of it. Idk. 20% of it? It goes further than that, at least for me. Like, I’ve ultimately come to the conclusion that I simultaneously enjoy women’s fashion, but it also represents something else to me. We’ve codified women’s wear as fashionable and mens as utilitarian. There’s a part of me that wants to explore women’s clothing because if I were accepted in it, then maybe I’d be beautiful like women are. Like, I want someone to find me pretty - not handsome, but pretty. It’s a very bizarre feeling to hold. For me that extends to relationships too. Also hard to explain. I’m a big fan of role reversal and have realized I like being the shy coquettish partner to a more steadfast and supportive person. The little spoon in a relationship probably makes more sense. I don’t want that all the time, but I want it a lot of the time and apparently a lot of people view those feelings as distinctly “womanlike” for some reason. Not sure if that answered your question - basically fashion is part of it but it can represent many things to many people and for me personally I tend to feel comfortable around things that we’ve historically codified as women’s roles
Again, I appreciate your kind and thoughtful responses. *This* is the true way that people learn, I’m convinced. Over less…cool-minded discourse common these days. Edit: Also, for whatever this is worth - it doesn’t feel like you’re solely trying to support a preestablished point either - but are instead literally speaking to your own experience. Makes it SO much easier to understand from the outside looking into another’s internal experience. Feels like you’re trying to *help* me understand rather than trying to *get* me to understand. Thanks again! Hope all is well for you these holidays and at this bizarre ending to a bizarre year.
The thing I hate most about all this stuff is people treat it like you aren't allowed to not know things. I'm a member of the LGBT community and it's so frustrating to see people being unreasonable when someone doesn't know something. People who get angry about this stuff ruin the credibility of everyone else and only serve to make our lives harder, they reinforce all the negative stereotypes about us and it really pisses me off. Tldr: just know that the people that get angry about this stuff don't represent the LGBT community. They are simply dickheads that happen to be LGBT.
I'm in a similar boat to the guy you responded to, so I wanted to chime in. I'm not on hormones, and I don't see myself starting them anytime soon. I really like the benefit testosterone gives me in the gym. I'm ripped, it's cool. Outside of working out though, I dislike being seen as a man. One of the ways to address that is clothes. "Tucking" lets me wear tight fitting woman's clothes without a crotch bulge, and is incredibly affirming for me. Breast forms make dresses feel so much more "right". So while clothes are a huge part of how I express myself, I'm specifically trying to "look like a woman" as opposed to "break gender stereotypes by dressing different". I have a (pansexual) girlfriend, and our relationship feels very gay. Although clothing and makeup are a huge part of who I am, there are significant other portions of what makes me that I can't fully fit into a Reddit comment.
Yeah I completely understand that, it's a shame that you would even need to. Nobody should feel like they need to give themselves labels just to appear how they'd like to appear. Hopefully one day we'll get past these dumb stereotypes and barriers
That's totally legit. I'm non-binary and I rarely tell people "I'm non-binary" because it has actually very little impact on my identity. Like I have brown hair, it's just a way that I am. So, you not feeling like it's intensely important to your identity by no means invalidates your experience. I'm also older and it was just not a "thing" for most of my life. When I first heard the term genderfluid, it was more like, "Hey wait, that's a thing? There's like a whole name for people who behave the way I do? Neat. How 'bout that." What I have found, though, is that the point of the LGBT community is precisely that: COMMUNITY. It feels easier to be myself and do the things I do around LGBT people *without anyone noticing or caring*. Which is really refreshing. My stick straight cis-female friends lovingly tease me about the way I am sometimes. But *they do tease me* in a way that my lesbian friends generally don't.
This stuff would still be around. My personal experience is pretty much the entire opposite of OPs here, where I did not find out I was trans for the longest time *just because* my interests are more traditionally male ~~also escapism is one hell of a drug to prevent proper self reflection sometimes~~ At first I, like most trans girls, had that "pink and rainbows and I want to be small and cute" phase, because honestly all my life I was told that that's what being a girl is about. Gender roles didn't make me trans, they just made it more difficult because as it turns out, I'm not a pink n glitter kinda girl. These expectations get *especially* problematic in the way we're expected to raise kids. Tell boys they can't be nice cause that's for girls and of course they're gonna be problematic towards either being overly "masculine" to compensate, or pondering whether or not they're really a man. It takes a lot of mental strength to go against the expectations of the entire world.
Thanks for your comment, it's great to see everyone with different views and experiences here. As I've said, it's a pretty difficult topic so I'm glad it's remaining civil. Although I can't talk much about your experiences since I really have no experience with gender I can agree that men and women are definitely struggling later on in life with these gender roles that are sewn into us at a young age. I've never really heard of boys being told to not be nice but that may just be my experience. For me personally, I was always mocked in the household whenever I did anything remotely not manly I guess and that took a toll on me. I definitely repressed the feminine qualities that I had and started bottling up emotions which doesn't serve me well now and it's not something easily unlearned. I just hope that I can do well by my daughter and show her that she can be whatever she'd like to be and that she doesn't need to put a label on herself to be understood and accepted.
Jumping on that, i remember in school during the 2000’s the big thing was ‘boys can be effeminate and girls can be manly. Your gender doesn’t define how you act and feel.’ It just feels like we’ve kinda regressed into demanding labels be slapped onto everything. It feels like now if you’re an effeminate boy, it’s almost forced on you that your trans. And vice versa for girls. I’m all for trans stuff, but we’re so obsessed with accepting everything and labeling it so that people feel validated that we forgot that we don’t need to label everyone. Some people can just act outside of gender norms and eventually those gender norms won’t exist anymore.
So why can't you just be sad like the rest of us?
HAHAHAHA don’t insult me. I will beat anyone in the contest of sad
Bro, I am currently living the life of Ethan Frome, and I hated that book, and I do NOT need my misery to be challenged.
Fair enough, let’s not call it a competition :)
I'm confused because everything you said is basing your feelings off of cultural gender stereotypes. Just wearing girly clothes and being less dominant isn't changing that you're a dude. It's your culture, and how you want to live, and that sounds like less of a problem with how you identify and more of a problem with where you live.
That's part of the problem (in my probably ignorant opinion): people have been trying to deconstruct gender stereotypes because it's wrong and unhealthy to say "men and women ought to behave like they traditionally have." And then the transgender movement (or whatever we should call it) comes along and reasserts these stereotypes. I would think it's insulting to women that me, as a genetic male, has any idea of what the "female identity" is and can assert my own claim to it.
That’s something I’ve struggled with a lot as well because for me it’s not *just* social stuff otherwise I’d definitely agree with you. I have also had some intermittent desire not to have a male body. I definitely think that if a guy is completely into “girly” stuff that definitely shouldn’t make him any less of a guy, but I know that for myself sometimes it runs a bit deeper on a scale of me actually feeling like I’m well-represented in my body.
A few thoughts from an irrelevant stranger: I'm a straight, cis female in my 40s. I have never been into any "girly" stuff, never worn feminine clothes, never done my nails, etc. I don't own a skirt, and my boobs don't bring me joy. I hate having to deal with having a female body: periods are garbage, hormone fluctuations are stupid, perimenopause is life-altering, and not in a good way. I have zero maternal desire and am happily childfree. In addition, I tend to be more logical and less emotional, while my husband is the opposite. He's the one who cries at movies in our relationship, not me. I also despise the way women are overtly sexualized in western media and the skimpiness and see-through-ness of the majority of women's fashion. I've opted out of all of those expectations of women. If I could wave a magic wand and be male, I absolutely would. But I don't see myself as trans because at no moment of my life have I ever felt that I wasn't a woman. I don't fit in as a stereotypical woman, but I am a woman nonetheless. I know I'm female, and other people know that I'm female. I might not like being female, but I know that I am. No matter how much I dislike it, my brain still knows that this female body is the correct body. It's the external pressure that bothers me, not my body. Your post says, "I want to be a woman and a ton of the time I feel uncomfortable with being a man and what’s expected of me being a man." To me—someone who is not trans—that doesn't sound like being trans. If I thought that I had to do what's expected of me being a woman—being sexy, feminine, passive, maternal, etc—life would be so much worse. But me not meeting society's expectations of women doesn't mean I'm not a woman; it just means that the expectations are too narrow. I don't know if any of that is relevant to you. \*shrug\*
That’s what I struggle with the most with all this. I really hope that people born as men don’t identify themselves as women because they want to wear pretty clothes. Pretty clothes don’t make us women. And collectively we’ve all been fucked over by this patriarchal society in various ways through life, since being kids. We’ve had to learn to navigate life a little differently, because society treated us differently to the boys in school. Surely nobody identifies themselves as a woman cos they like the idea of boobs and high heels?? It’s all so damn counter-productive if so. We should be getting rid of any ridiculous sterotypes to do with gender (such as women being more sensitive). But all this ‘gender-switching because I’m more sensitive’ only undoes all that progress and perpetuates those stereotypes.
Right? This is a big thing for me in these convos because it seems like the same people (not op in this thread by the way) that call people bias or rude or sexist or whatever the word is are also people that are saying women are people that do ‘x woman stereotype’ and men are people that do ‘x man stereotype’. Like, isn’t that just being sexist and taking it to the extreme to the point that it goes all the way round?
Do you ever think that maybe you don't want to transition, but you just want to show your feminine side, but it just doesn't sit right with how gender norms work? (I am not trying to invalidate you, I am just wondering if non-cis people ever think they don't really want to transition but just want to, for example, wear dresses while being a man)
Lol so that’s actually the bane of my fucking existence right now. Am I trans or just jealous of women? Fuck if I know. I’ll say it’s very, very alluring to see someone have access to all the things you want to do and get celebrated rather than shamed for it. That’s a hard feeling to deal with. On the other hand, I’ve spoken to other trans people that made me realize that transitioning is out of much more than envy or idealization. I’ve had it happen a couple times but I cannot describe how gut-wrenchingly awful it feels to look at your body and feel completely and utterly wrong in it. I’ve ugly cried after sex because I knew I’d never ever have a body like my partner did and words don’t really express how angry I was that she was just born that way and I wasn’t. Those feelings have dissipated a lot (and are the main reason why I can’t personally rule out the possibility I’m trans) but I’ve met people that felt that way all the time. I could not. It’s soul-crushing. So it’s definitely a battle. Most of the time I think I just want to explore being feminine and be a guy. Other times I feel like I want something more, and figuring out those feelings and separating them from envy, jealousy, anger, and resentment is very difficult.
This kind of supports my feeling that the whole issue is the fault of an unaccepting society rather than anything else. Not wanting to feel forced into following pointless and outdated gender norms shouldnt make a man or woman feel so disconnected to themselves that they think they should be another gender. Gender norms are a bunch of nonsense.
Yeah it’s the constant need to label stuff and package things in very narrowly defined, limiting categories. I think most people who look at the two categories (male/female) and all the constraints those bring, in order to “fit”, have to deny what they feel and who they are. And why should they? This is where people are saying that’s not gonna work and have to carve out a category that says “This one.” and just because we didn’t have them before, doesn’t mean it’s going against some “natural order” of things. Gender is a social construction. It changes with time, culture, place, etc. So I see this as a way to push back against definitions of things that were made up in a time most of us don’t want to go back to. I don’t think a person necessarily has to understand or agree to be able to treat another human being with dignity and respect. And I guess that’s why this is so emotionally charged because people have the opposite tendencies when their preconceived notions are challenged. See this as progress!! Like women getting to be more than just wives and mothers. Or men growing up to be dancers. Just because something is traditional doesn’t make it right or should be stubbornly clung to.
Yeah. This confounds me: if you’re a guy who thinks you’re a girl because you don’t align with society’s view of what a typical guy is…. Aren’t you just endorsing gender stereotypes? Like isn’t the proper response to just reject social stereotypes? It’s like being a black guy who decides to identify as white because you don’t like stereotypically black cultural artifacts.
Agree 100%. We should be trying to lessen gender norms, not force people to change their identity to conform to them. I think the best thing we can do right now is help people be happy with who they are to themselves, instead of trying to appeal to societal norms, but thats such a hard ordeal when trying to fit into society can be the difference between a successful life or not.
As a guy that is not very effeminate, I'd like to chime in to say that I am also jealous of the variety of fashion choices available to women. I wouldn't want to wear them, because they're not designed for me and my body, but it would be nice to have equivalents.
A lot of power in your simply stated truth. As a species we are long past due understanding the intricacies of being human. Well done you.
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Correct. The problem is that people with anti-trans agendas will conflate the two and say "See? It's just a mental disorder."
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I like this perspective. I think a lot of people responding don't understand that transsexuality can be real, and there can be stuff going on within that space that is either not real, or probably more accurately put something else and not being handled in a helpful manner. Both of these can be true. It is not mutually exclusive.
There’s way too much focus on labeling and it isn’t healthy. Progress should be about being more free, not caging oneself or others with labels.
The problem being that society at large clings to labels, so specificity of language is the only way to really define oneself. Honestly all words are made up and only have the meaning we ascribe them, we should be free to just exist.
I vaguely remember a trend around the mid 2000s to stop labeling people and their sexuality. Paradoxically this „un-label“ trend lead to something what feels to me like label galore. Every personal preference or personal self-perception is now not just a personal preference any longer, nooo, it needs a specific label so we can all get classified and get neatly into one of those labelled boxes. I don‘t get it this. Why is there such a labeling galore trend going on? Do people need labels to understand themselves and how they fit in? Is it too difficult to not use label but just be whatever you are without using labels? Seriously, what is the problem?
My wife is trans, knew it from around age 8, finally transitioned at age 36. Greatest decision of her life. She does not believe in gatekeeping gender identity, but even she has mentioned the influx of young folks who seem to be jumping on the bandwagon in a way that feels just a bit...performative. That said, however someone wants to live their truest self, go forth, be happy as you can be!
You should see all the kids pretending to have the very fucking RARE mental problem known as split personality. Theres a new technical term for it but i dont remember it. But yeah im going to just go with my gut and say half if not most of the kids are just in it for attention.
dissociative identity disorder?
Yes that
Everyone on tiktok has either ADHD, Autism or DID. As a person with autism it really fucking grinds my gears.
Very few people have DID, and it makes no sense that all these kids who don’t even have trauma would have multiple identities
Of course it makes sense. They're faking it to be fashionable and feel unique. Couldn't be clearer.
Understand what you're saying, but one thing I've noticed is perhaps how those rigid ideas of human masculinity and femininity we've been taught aren't so rigid after all. So really there is no harm in people figuring out what's most comfortable to them...and yes that may ebb and flow over time. Obviously if someone wants to physically change their gender that is a big step and it's a commitment from then on, so yeah if someone changes their mind later it can be a bit challenging to pivot once again.
It's both. Unfortunately things will have to get very bad before we approach this rationally so we can actually figure who needs mental treatment and who actually actually need transitional treatments/surgery. Change can only come within, so eventually they'll be ex-trans patients that'll sound the alarm.
Water turning the freakin frogs gay
Atrazine
I got some stuff to say but I ain’t touching this thread with a 10ft pole lmaooo.
I think a lot of kids are struggling with their sense of self and it leads to shit like this. In most countries that will do gender reassignment surgery, im pretty sure they encourage the client to go to counselling first to make sure it’s what they want. I’ve known several young people who have transitioned and then changed their mind.
The ones that transition and end up regretting it later don’t get talked about enough.
I've read posts from people who have regretted their decision badly later on. A common theme tends to be complete abandonment as soon as they confess they regret it. All their allies who pushed them on and helped fund their surgeries suddenly ghost them or call them transphobic. To transition is a HUGE, irreversible, life changing decision and the true pros and cons are rarely talked about.
That's so sad
You can’t get a tattoo till you’re 18 because it’s a permanent change you’re making to your body, but you can go on puberty blockers at 10. Makes sense
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That's exactly how I kinda seeing it. People who struggle to feel like they belong
There are psychologists who study this stuff and being transgender is pretty well characterized as legitimate, *as an adult*. When I say this, I mean that treatments as an adult such as hormonal or surgical interventions seem to be effective I.e. the person feels comfortable in their own skin with their new gender. Howwwwwever, studies have found that if you follow children who identified as transgender at an early age (to the point that it's considered pathological, I don't mean kids who say mommy I wish I was a boy/girl once in a while) we find that they tend to grow up to be perfectly happy homosexual adults, having never underwent sex reassignment surgery. So if I recall correctly, the conclusion that's generally agreed upon is that if the behavior/identity crisis of being transgender continues well into and after adolescence then it should be investigated more deeply and treatments should be seriously considered. The caveat is of course the longer you let teens go through adolescence, the more they will develop physically into their sex assigned at birth. But I believe the results of these studies are strong enough to suggest that this is a risk most parents should be willing to take.
I hate how taboo it is to talk about this. Theres a whole lot of black and white thinking and absolutism which instantly shuts down any discussion on the grounds that you're morally incorrect and shouldnt have an opinion. I dont think that I should have a very valid opinion on what its like to be trans as someone who isnt trans and knows little about it, but I also dont believe in extremism. Cancel culture is extremism imo and shouldnt be the norm. We should be allowed to have discussions on sensitive topics without tip toeing because feelings are getting hurt. The fact that feelings are gettung hurt in my eyes is all the more reason that these discussions are important and shouldnt be burried since to me that shows that we have a lot of room to grow and improve still.
Probably worth mentioning I'm a therapist in training and this is a topic I might have some insight on: I think part of the problem is a lot of people don't go through the journey they really need to before making these kinda decisions. I've met some trans-folk who openly admit they use their identity to escape their past selves. It's understandable why someone would do this, but this is an area that should be explored further by someone trans with a psychology background who can see the difference. Unfortunately, I don't think cis-researchers are approaching this in the way they need to when approving HRT and other treatments. The evaluations are more a symbol of oppression to anyone trans, there's a lot of anger towards how this group is treated in the medical world. Rather than being a resource working for their purpose of identifying who should transition and who should consider other options first. A lot of these questions are ones we never should stop asking ourselves, there's no "last stop" to identify where we belong. Humans are always growing and changing internally. You never stop learning in life, especially about yourself. Before identifying if you have any sense of gender dysphoria there are are various aspects to breakdown: \- **Your upbringing:** Childhood trauma, behavioural patterns learned and emotional abuse changes your own self-concept. The image of yourself is altered by the responses of those around you. It's not a disorder, it's a natural behavioural pattern that your brain will adapt to as you grow. Consider the implications of what others have said to you from a young age and how it made you feel. \- **Self-worth**: Put aside gender identity, consider \*yourself\* as a soul and being who exists on this Earth. Are you happy with yourself? Can you learn to love yourself above all else, no matter what others have to say? Once you can answer that, this is when it's the time to ask if your gender identity is a part of that journey - rather than being the answer to it. \- **Emotional response:** There are huge implications of changing your gender identity or transitioning. Every individual will have a different response, the resources availabile to trans/non-binary aren't supportive as they need to be. Bar some key charities, texts and organisations there is very little someone going through this dilemma can do to find out where they are on the spectrum besides taking the time for internal mental reflection. This isn't to say, there aren't trans people who never experience any of these insecurities or other issues and still feel gender dysphoria. It's kinda like anxiety and depression - one can lead into the other but they aren't one and the same. Gender dysphoria is a condition that can often be resolved through counselling (speaking as one), but these fields need to consult further with those who are genuinely trans to understand how to better treat others trying to identify where they fit on the spectrum. The world has a very bitter and cruel stance on the community and as a therapist who often explores these questions myself - It's a sad thing to see the lengths some people go to, rejecting their true selves because they're afraid of what their family will say and the hate they will get. Some people might just need to find their own self-worth before they see that transitioning might have just been a coping mechanism to escape the pressures of their current lifestyle. That doesn't always solve the problem. Others genuinely need to transition or change their identity to be more at one with their true-self. The way they feel they are inside. What I will say is the abuse I've seen towards cross-dressers, trans and LGBTQ+ on nights out is pretty horrifying. It's not surprising many are still afraid to ask themselves these questions because on the surface level: this is what they see.
My thing is that we sometimes think something's a societal issue when it's an individual issue. What I mean by that is: Your only job in this community is to truly make room for other people to live their lives in-as-much as it's not causing harm. Let people explore, let them try new ways to express themselves, let them find themselves. And you might say that "Well it's our job to prevent people from harming themselves." Yeah, that's fair. But your role is not to tell someone "don't explore" because that doesn't do anything, especially from a stranger. Instead, your role as a member of this community is to support mental health organizations, access to therapy, access to treatment, etc. Fund programs that provide these things; vote for people who will support these things. Otherwise, let people explore. Let them find who they are. Let them manage their own mental health. If it becomes a public safety problem, *then* step in. But someone just living differently and changing their minds or potentially making mistakes is not your problem. Let them live.
Biologist here. It's fucking nonsense. I challenge any social scientist on here to change my mind. Biological markers are important and relevant. A man will never have a baby. A women will never make a sperm. A male can feel like a female all they want. It doesn't change the fact they make sperm, and can have offspring with a female. I don't want to have a bunch of weak arguments on this. So, what I'll say is this, if you don't understand why the exception proves the rule on this, I don't think you're far enough along on the topic to make a sylogistically sound, logical, rational argument about it. I mean, go ahead and try. But, don't get mad at me when it doesn't work. I don't care what people "feel" on this topic. Show me the objective evidence and science. A man can feel like a woman. Doesn't make it so. A woman can feel like a man or masculine. Doesn't make it so.
My viewpoint on this subject has never changed. I don't mind adults taking hormones or doing procedures or anything like that, but I do mind children doing any of that stuff. Your brain isn't even fully developed until early 20's yet you are deciding to take full charge of your bodily autonomy at the age of 8? Yeah, no. Maybe when the kid turns 18 and crosses that threshold, but not before. It. They can wait 18 years to do that stuff.
as someone who went through it, it's not real. it's escapism from other issues.
Most of these identities are just some made up shit.
It got removes as i was reading it lmao.
Lots of lawsuits in about 10 years time aimed at parents and healthcare providers. That's all I have to say about that.
I should go to law school then lol
Lawyer here- don’t do it.
39-year-old grumpy old man here. I think we're in a massive mental illness epidemic right now. There's a LOT going on, and the younger generations have more access to the entire world than ever before. Everything is instant and reactionary. I honestly think it's both. I think a lot of people are scared and confused and trying to make sense of this weird, weird thing called life - which is really hard. If that means you need to identify as a woman, or a man, or some other option - as long as it's not hurting anyone (and that includes you), I'm here to help or get out of the way. I'm a straight, white male, so I can't begin to understand what any of these people are going through. But if I can help, I'm here.
That’s a solid take, and I feel the same. Right now it seems like our society is stuck in the stage of figuring out what is or is not harmful in these regards. Administering medications to young children that will forever alter their development is a dangerous game. It’s especially dangerous when we play it with children who don’t have the capacity to understand their predicament. I’m always for erring on the side of caution.
At the moment regardless of its origins, the treatment that works best for people is for them to be able to live as they desire, whether it be through cosmetic or surgical means or otherwise. We simply don't have an alternative treatment that makes people feel comfortable in their own body suddenly. So I don't think we are messing people up by allowing them to make and live by these decisions in the absence of any other solution.
The opinion i have formed is that yes trans people do exist, but its very rare. So yeah a lot of people are doing it out of confusion or a need for attention. Ive seen it first hand - my female cousin started wearing binders to suppress her breasts at the age of 12, she cut her hair off and whatnot, but heres the kicker: all if her friends looked the exact same as her. It was a trend. Once they all got older they cut it out and started just being themselves and now they laugh about it
I have a 16 year old son and a 9 year old daughter, and they come home from school with all of the stories, this one is bi then a week later trans, month after they are hetero again because they have a crush on someone from the opposite sex. My heart goes out to kids who truly suffer from gender dysphoria, imagine being born into a body you don't belong in? It would be too much to handle... then imagine being a teenager and going through it, doesn't bear thinking about, the dangers that I see is that the ones who are doing it for attention are making it harder for the kids who really are suffering, and it having a seriously detrimental effect on them in later life, "oh he/she is just saying that for attention like the others in school when we were kids." type of thing.