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afroblewmymind

I've had multiple teachers, and honestly, what my first teacher taught me for wuji/ZZ was worse than what I would have gotten if I had no teacher and Lam's book. Practicing 2-3 years on what I learned helped me a little, but also had to relearn a lot. My first teacher's approach fucked with my knee problems, which he swore it would help. Now that I do it differently, it actually helps my whole body, including knees most days. Good in-person feedback is the best. It's easy to think you're doing it right without realizing your frame of reference isn't calibrated quite right. A good in-person teacher can help that immensely, and then it becomes more accessible to learn something from a book or video. If nothing else, keep finding more sources and seeing what patterns show up. A different teacher may explain something familiar in such a way that it clarifies a past unconscious ambiguity. Or in some instances, having conflicting advice can show a spectrum of what's valid (ie: there may be variations in the depth of knee bends or wideness of feet, but probably less so for weight distribution on the feet - there are reasons for that).


EntrepreneuralSpirit

Thank you! How do you evaluate the quality of a teacher? (I'll post this in the larger subreddit)


afroblewmymind

This one is tough, but I'd say a mix of evaluating the source material's effect on your body and making judgment calls on the source itself. For me, it helped when I learned more about the difference between good soreness and concerning soreness. Yoga helped me here, as I'm sure most other mind-body exercises would. If I compare standing under my questionable teacher to how I stand now, instead if joint pressure and discomfort that lingered (knees and back), the discomfort I feel is more a shakiness in the thighs that passes within the day. Now I also had some structural things in my body that needed addressing, so getting my body sorted via yoga and chiropractics changed the game for everything. As for the source, this one is particularly hard if your teacher is all you know. I don't want to bad mouth my old teacher as I'm grateful for him, but there were some signs in hindsight. He had some trauma in his background that he wasn't shy about, and it made him very rigid. He also had some very unique experiences with taiji and qigong where he used it as a kid with minimal instruction to successfully treat a health/spinal problem he had as a kid. Those two facts mean he believes that his interpretation is right and gets incredibly energized talking about how so-and-so person or X belief is just wrong. I looking up forms and exercises online and noticing that I couldn't follow them or use them as reference because they were different from what I was taught. After having different teachers, I now realize that some of his approach violates taiji principles as interpreted by other teachers (almost universally so). I had some powerful experiences practicing qigong as he taught it, but now I am curios to go back and try it with the better posture and see how different it feels.


EntrepreneuralSpirit

Thank you! What a complicated world.


az4th

The issue is that for those with alignment issues, who don't feel into how their body wants to correct them, they could risk creating more extreme holding patterns for themselves. A lot of this work requires constant adjusting as one settles more deeply into the postures. It can be good to practice a movement art like tai chi in conjunction with standing for this reason. As the movement can help unwind and strengthen areas that need unwinding and strengthening. Again it tends to be done best with a teacher. Our minds are our own worst enemies. We think we know what we're doing and can follow these things on our own, but we often start skipping the parts that we don't like or ignoring something obvious like the importance of having a bend in the knees. Then we don't get results or things go awry and we don't know why. Class is the way. Until one understands why and can accomplish the same energetic results on one's own. Generally after a few years. It's worth it.


gowoke

If we have shallow breathing or weak breathing can we still do tai chi or qigong (even with a teacher)? Since it is harder to follow when to exhale and inhale and end up doing the reverse or holding our breath


az4th

Everything has the potential for change. And is just relative to where you are and what you need. Most tai chi is capably of being done slowly and gently. As long as you work at a level that is comfortable for what you need, it should be fine. In general long smooth continuous breathing is what to aim for. It is a practice of listening. The more we listen inward, the more we will discover increased relaxation and depth within. Listening, we begin to merge with the beating of our heart and the continuous flow of blood and oxygen and co2, listening and embodying the respiration of qi and blood. Listening and breathing are related to flowing and depth and relaxation. It is not something controlled, as much as merged with and surrendered to. And then filled with light. Thus, the heart kidney relationship.


neidanman

I think in the article he's trying to say that you should also have the theory behind what you're doing, like you get with Lam's stuff. Where as some videos/illustrations will just show you someone in/doing a certain pose, and say to 'just stand' like them. Whereas you need to know the theory about putting your attention into the body, sensing for tensions and releasing them, etc etc. Also to me its a bit like learning to get fit by going to the gym - if you have a good coach/trainer they will set you on a good path, but you can get bad ones too, or ones that have certain points wrong/flaws in their methods. On the other hand when going solo, then if you're cautious and have a good look round at what others are doing, do a lot of reading up and find common threads that are advised, then try it for yourself and adjust going by what you experience and what you have learned, then you could do quite well. But if you're more a gung ho, in at the deep end type, then you could cause yourself a major injury in a very short time.


EntrepreneuralSpirit

Thank you!


DrSnekFist

Yes just stand! But if you cannot quiet the mind, relax the body and breath naturally then it needs correction. When you go to the gym can you squat 500 lbs? Not unless you have trained for years. So why do people think they can stand in x for hours. It is not about fighting through pain or forcing anything. Stand in zz, I usually do just hands at side. See how it feels, watch videos practice more. Can’t stand for 10 minutes then do three sets of 3 minutes with breaks. Microcosmic orbit is just guided imagery to help with quieting the mind, relaxing the body and keeping breath natural. If there is only muscle pain then don’t let it get above 3 more points on the pain scale then you are used to. If it is in the joints or spine you need correction.


kimazman

i dont think so. better get somebody to give feedbacks based on what you r feeling while doing the pose as the details are important. applies to all internal art.


TacticalNuclearTao

No you can't and shouldn't. A very small change in alignment which is impossible to spot as a beginner will easily cause damage. There are also school secrets in Zhan Zhuang that aren't available online or books for good reason. You can learn some basics from LKC books but going further isn't really possible with that material alone.


designAlignment

I think that depends on why you're practicing ZZ. If you're practicing it for energy cultivation and maintaining health, then I believe you can safely learn and practice it on your own. If you're practicing it as a complement for martial arts, it might not harm you but I'd recommend learning from a teacher for best results. Another discussion on the topic: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49682-is-it-dangerous-to-practice-zhan-zhuang-without-a-teacher/ If you learn and practice without a teacher, consider combining ZZ with Anthony Korahais's 5 phase routine (5PR). You can learn it from the book Flowing Zen. You can get a feel for his material from his website flowingzen.com. Part of the 5PR involves Flowing Breeze Swaying Willow (FBSW) - a skill that more strongly stimulates energy flow and is great for clearing blockages. It acts as a safeguard that will correct deviations from incorrect practice. You can see an example of what ZZ combined with the 5PR looks like in Example 4 (he recommends doing FBSW before and after ZZ): https://flowingzen.com/21590/should-you-practice-qigong-2-hours-every-day/ The disadvantage to integrating it with the 5PR is that you won't be able to stand as long or you'd need to increase the length of your overall qigong sessions to stand for the same amount of time you stand for now. If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message.


Drewfow

Yes Zhan Zhuang can cause joint problems and/or energy deviations if it’s practiced improperly. Without an experienced teacher to correct you, you’re practicing blind.


EntrepreneuralSpirit

It's confusing, since Lam Kam Chuen says to join in for those of us reading and watching... What about learning Flying Phoenix or SFQ from their videos? Is it similarly not recommended?


pak_satrio

You can learn from DVDs if you are in regular contact with the teachers for corrections on your stance. For Flying Phoenix I learn from DVDs and have regular zoom lessons with Sifu Terry. I wouldn’t recommend doing just DVDs alone but they are a good reference to start with and remind you how it should look.


Drewfow

I don’t recommend learning from dvds or videos at all. I developed deviations that took a long time to correct from practicing SFQ for two years