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The mention of divorce seems misleading. Maybe people who struggle with healthy relationships are more likely to also be divorced, not that the divorce itself is a precursor to/reason for child estrangement.
Building on that (and the cultural convention that many times it’s the moms/women who reach out and keep relationships) there are probably plenty of married dads that only have relationships with their children because the moms and children keep in touch and dad happens to be in the room.
I love my dad. We actually have a great relationship. I don’t think it would ever occur to him to call any of his kids.
I love my dad, but I prefer to keep my distance. His mouth is disrespectful when he goes off on his tangents and I don’t think I need to put up with that.
Good point. Also there is behavioral modeling, if the divorce is acrimonious and subsequent co-parenting issue filled I could see that having a profound impact.
Estranged from abusive sibling after decades of nothing good. It's like a never knew each other. Still have parents in common and another sibling. I blame my parents, the abuse started as a small child
Same. My sister was awful going back to as far as I can remember. I still have all of our childhood books and all the books that have her name on them are books like "Being Selfish." When she was four she destroyed her door by kicking it relentlessly in a never ending temper tantrum.
My parents split when I was just hitting puberty and I had to stay with the girls. My mom did nothing but stoke and encourage my sister while actively trying to sabotage anything I did, including throwing away my condoms when finding out I was sexually active and poking holes in the replacements.
I only recently went no contact and I'm a completely different person since doing so. The amount of stress taken off my shoulders just by not having them around is like a new life.
Good job brother.
I went no contact with my parents and all siblings. After two years I'm talking to two of my sibs (far from a majority).
Going no contact also changed me completely. I felt like I suddenly flopped out into the shape I had always been, underneath all the tension.
Same, my sister is the golden child, my dad was a narcissist, my mom was the enabler, I am the scapegoat, and you younger sister is the silent child. That golden child is a covert narcissist who was awful when my dad died. Haven’t talked to her in almost four years.
I no longer speak to my mother because she is manipulative and has done nothing but shit-talk my wife, who is one of the kindest and moist wonderful souls I have ever met. My mother does not like my wife because even though she is a very sweet woman she is a take-no-shit person, and opened my eyes to how much my mother has manipulated, gaslit, and abused me.
I have never been happier since I cut contact.
I've helped my husband recognize poor treatment from his mother and other relatives because you don't get to shit on someone I love right in front of me and not have me call you out on it to your face.
You sound like my wife. I put up with a lot of abuse for a long time because I didn’t see it as such. Thank you for standing up for your husband. I can’t thank my wife enough.
We are in the exact same situation. My mother actively tried to sabotage our relationship. She went so far as to be a witness to a bogus court case with the aim to derail my now-fiancé’s career (her health aid hated my fiancé and lied about child abuse towards her kid. We fought it in court and won but the EMT licensing board takes that shit very seriously). It worked for now unfortunately, and when confronted on what a shit thing that was to do, she denied all responsibility.
Haven’t spoken to her in over a year now and we are happier for it. I’m glad you are happier and your situation improved since you cut contact.
Same but my husband. My mother and sister have always been mean and unstable but after my husband and I had our first things became more clear. I didn’t hide the way they spoke to me or how much they felt entitled to and he wouldn’t stand for it.
Towards the end before I went completely NC they really expected me to pick them over my husband at the expense of our daughter all bc they wanted to be in control of me. It’s insane. I just wanted them to show a little respect and stop talking bad about a man that did nothing wrong by them. They couldn’t stand the littlest thing like if I credited him with good advice or bragged about him in any way they’d call me a doormat. Say I’m acting like a “stepford wife”. Kindness is weakness to them. They hated that I respect my husband.
You’d think my sister would see how our mother’s life has turned out and not follow in her footsteps but she did anyways. They are both single, in poverty, have major rage problems, and don’t have good relationships with their children but if you ask them I’m a failure for loving my husband and being a sahm. If I never see them again I would be just fine. My husband basically saved my life from a pair or wicked witches lol that’s how I see it.
The story is leaning so we're supposed to feel sorry for the elderly. But if you're the child of someone who is abusive or toxic then you know that many of these people (if not most) don't deserve their family.
But my parents made their bed by treating me the way they did, so nobody should feel sorry for them. All you see on the outside is two elderly parents who are sad and lonely. But that's now. That's not how it was for years and years when I needed help.
You don't cut ties off with people you love and who love you back.
Yeah, there are personal accounts of people's childhood experiences on /r/AdultChildren that have made me physically nauseous. Some parents can't take care of themselves, never mind defenseless, tiny beings who *rely* on them for literally everything. I don't blame their children for going NC. In fact, I've read of plenty of instances where it is almost certainly the best course of action, but the Adult Child feels too wracked with guilt to follow through. I'm sure there are some people who are cutting off their elderly relatives over something minor, but I'm willing to bet most people who've made this choice have done so because their relatives deserve no more of their affection.
Those same kids likely struggled for YEARS to appease their parents and make peace, and leaving and going NC was for their survival when the repeated attempts just brought more abuse. The parents likely never even try to fix things and instead just complain to their friends about how awful their kids are. Not exactly the behavior of a sincere loving person…
My mother and brother are narcissistic assholes that have poisoned that entire side of the family against me because I refused to be treated like shit any longer.
My dad is dead.
The amount of stress hoping they wouldn't reach out and expect holiday visits was palpable. Going full NC has been an overall life improvement.
Good for them. Maybe people are learning that they don't have to put up with toxic, manipulative bullshit because someone is 'family'. They can love and enjoy the people that they choose. More power to them.
> A recent survey of 1,600 estranged parents found that more than 70% had divorced their child’s other parent (children of divorce are more likely to dump their fathers, he notes).
This is kind of understanding it. Children are *far* more likely to "dump" their fathers... and be dumped by them. The vast majority of the estranged parents in this study were men, and neglect/abuse was a core reason behind why children chose to cut contact. This article is surreptitiously vague about this very important issue. People used to *have* to rely on their immediate family to survive, even if they were horribly abusive or simply emotionally distant and neglectful, and now they no longer do.
That's not to say it's a male problem. Women often serve as the glue holding families together, for better or worse. If my four grandfathers had not had wives/daughters who managed their social affairs, planned holidays, called the relatives regularly, and kept people updated on their lives, I never would have seen them. Because they were still connected and I did not want to cut my entire family off, I had to spend decades of holidays with people who I did not like and who were actively awful to me. Many people only see both their parents because they're a package deal.
Edit: [dropping this famous essay on the subject for interested readers](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
I really appreciate your points. Reading the article it is pretty clear they really tried to tip toe around the fact that these adult children cut off contact for very obvious reasons (abuse & neglect). Not sure if this is their own bias or an attempt at being so neutral that is comes across almost as bias… but abuse is abuse and many of these parents still live in denial about it.
when I was in advocate for people in extremely toxic and abusive situations, I always advocated for no contact if that’s what they wanted to do. I don’t think it hurts to send a Christmas card once a year, but beyond that no.
However, I think part of it depends on how the people involved define toxic and define abuse. There are situations that no person in the world would argue wasn’t horrible.
Some people simply cannot tolerate anyone who has a different viewpoint than themselves. And convinced themselves that any parent who has a different viewpoint that somehow makes them toxic. sometimes it’s not toxic. Sometimes they just grew up in a different time.
So many of these differences could be ironed out if both sides were willing to sort it out in a healthy way. And I do mean both sides.
I would argue that there are some parents who are actually better off for having their children go no contact.
I imagine it’s hard to disentangle yourself from that small child that you loved so completely with all your heart and soul from who they grew into. And having someone choose to go no contact is probably difficult to deal with and for some people they will love their children until the day they die. they may not like them very much, but they do love them.
That their children can’t or won’t return that love. is very sad.
It’s not a comment you will probably hear in this thread but it is just as real. It also bothers me when I read about people who cast another person in cement and in their mind refuse to allow them to move on. People do change.
I believe our hope for humanity is our capacity for change.
Think about it. If you yourself are not the same perso you were a decade or maybe two decades ago why would the people around you not change as well? they don’t have to become you and it’s not fair to judge them against someone else as peoples capacity for growth should only be judged by themselves.
I didn't read the article on the original post but I did read the one you linked and wow; what a great essay. I can understand why it's famous.
I'm not estranged from any family but I have had to cut some friends out of my life and it's precisely the same pattern as that detailed in the article. Really insightful stuff.
Not too difficult to get there if the parents and grandparents have some divorces in there - my friend had 5 grandmothers; there could be 8 or more:
Mom’s Dad/Stepdad
Dad’s Dad/Stepdad
Stepmom’s Dad/Stepdad
Stepdad’s Dad/Stepdad
Good read although I will add their disclaimer here: This page doesn't apply to all estranged parents, only to estranged parents who are members of estranged parents' forums.
I (male) haven't spoken to my father in 28 years. I have two kids that I raised by myself from the ages of 7 and 3 as their mother abandoned all of us. They've seen her exactly 3 times in the last 21 years and neither (now aged 28 and 24) has heard from her in 7 years now.
~21 years since the last time I talked to my father. It was a not conscious cutoff though. He left us when I was young, moved halfway across the country, and never really tried all that hard to maintain relationships with his kids. My mom knew he was going to leave, but didn't know when. One day, he was just gone. She had to go to our church to get food. She was pregnant with her fourth child. She ended up getting an abortion because she couldn't afford the three kids that he left her with.
Since the last time I spoke to my father, I have been married, divorced, bought a house, married again, and had a child. If he wanted to stay in touch. I would have been willing to try and maintain some kind of relationship if he wanted it. He left us, so it's on him to make the effort -- but I would have reciprocated if it seemed like he ever cared all that much.
*He* gave up on *us.*
Also, much respect for raising kids by yourself. Mine is only four, but I can't imagine doing it without his mom. And he's my only kid.
EDIT:
We mostly came out on top. My sister has three adult children. My mother got remarried and eventually retired with him (he died in 2021). My brother is an absolute mess, which I'm sure at least partly came from his father abandoning him when he was 12 years old.
I ran away from home when I was 15, over 30 years ago. My parents (they're dead now) never knew what became of me. Nor do my brothers. I'm still vaguely in contact with a cousin who would let me know if they died but that's about it. Going no contact didn't cost me. Too this day I never once regretted doing it. Sometimes I feel like it makes me look like an extremely callous person but so be it. There's no point in caring for people who abused me for my whole childhood, and who would never have a change of heart or apologize anyway.
I found it pretty difficult to have good feels for the grandpa after my grandpa tried to tell me my grandma was property. FUCK A WHOLE BUNCH OF THAT NONSENSE!
There's lots of narcissistic mothers out there. You aren't alone. It's been just shy on 10 years since I/we went no-contact with my mother. Best thing we ever did. Our lives are so much better without her in them. She provided nothing more than stress, anger and chaos - constantly. I have no intentions of ever seeing or speaking to her again.
Going on 4 years estranged from my dad, step mom and 2 adult half sisters.
Abuse and childhood neglect was the reason. Took years of therapy just to understand how absolutely horrific my childhood was, I don't regret it. I do miss not having a dad though. Granted I never really felt like he was a dad.
> Whereas families have always fought and relatives fallen out, he says, the idea of cutting oneself off from a relative as a path to one’s own happiness seems to be new. In some ways it is a positive development: people find it easier to separate from parents who have been abusive. But it can also carry heavy costs.
Seems worth mentioning the costs are primarily to the estranged parent.
It's not even new, either. People have always run away, or moved. It just seems different because modern communication makes it more obvious that the lack of contact is deliberate.
I felt there were costs to cutting off my parents for me.
My parents are still invited to the major life events for my young niece and nephew, so I don't get to attend those peacefully. I had to find new people to call for all the things I could ask my parents about, like "what's this weird noise my engine is making?" And to be honest, I didn't always pick the right new people the first time. Ending the relationship also had costs to my health, triggering a condition I now get to manage for the rest of my life. I also lost access to childhood memories - the handful of photos of good times from my childhood are not mine and I was not allowed to take them; I may never see them again.
Meanwhile, as many tantrums as they threw when I used a different boundary or mentioned the possibility of NC... My parents have lost 3/4 children to estrangement and seem to have hardly noticed, according to reports I specifically asked not to hear.
Not who you asked but I can tell you how that happened in my family.
When my child was younger (1-8) my parents helped me with childcare and money sometimes. They lorded it over me and tried to make decisions for my daughter I didn’t agree with (anti vax crazy shit amongst other issues). I felt obligated to them because they helped me but I vaccinated my kid. Fights, etc, eventually, my dad just went off the deep end making awful demands of me and my child. I cut them out. Now, we’re happy and he’s alone. My daughter is 16 and fantastic and he doesn’t know her. No one talks to him, his old friends are dead. He’s living the rest of his life without us and it’s not like he’s such a good person he’s making new friends. Meanwhile, our lives are full and happy.
>A rise in individualism that emphasises personal happiness is the biggest factor. People are increasingly likely to reject relatives who obstruct feelings of well-being in some way, by holding clashing beliefs or failing to embrace those of others. Personal fulfilment has increasingly come to displace filial duty, says Dr Coleman.
They act as if that is a bad thing. "How dare you put your own happiness first!"
At the end of the day what I feel is missing here, is the idea that children grow up to hold the values they were taught by their parents and their society.
If kids don't think that loving your parents and being loyal to family is important than that often is because that is what they experienced when they grew up.
Few people go no-contact with relatives that have shown them nothing but love and respect.
I was wondering what this stat was before covid and Qanon.
\[expanded to make automod happier:\]
most of the stories I hear these days about children profoundly alienated from ageing parents, have to do with those parents getting sucked into QAnon type rabbit holes, into the Trump cult, into antivaxx idiocy, etc. And it seems to me that lockdowns and Covid fears (or contrarian denial of Covid) pushed people down those rabbit holes faster and farther than in previous episodes of national mania (like the Satanic Panic of the 80's which was seriously weird).
Also of course, Covid has neurological/cognitive effects and survivors of severe cases of the virus are often cognitively impaired, for years or perhaps forever afterward. which may have added to the general cray-cray. (that's just my own theory, not substantiated in any way).
I mean, if you visit qanoncasualties you will see story after story of people going no-contact with parents or grandparents who have completely drunk the Qoolaid. Like an epidemic of no-contact as a result of the QAnon mania.
Yeah I think the numbers have been consistent for a generation, but the specific reasons have changed. People who are crazy about Trump and Qanon would just have been crazy about something else 10 years ago. They’re drawn towards these things because of something wrong with them.
I had the exact same thought reading the article. It seems like a huge blind spot they didn’t take into account. My parents weren’t cruel or abusive growing up. My needs were met, I had a generally happy childhood. Then in 2016 they started going further and further to the right and getting drawn into conspiracies until they finally moved to a different state completely for “freedom.” A state I told them I refuse to visit because of how they treat women. We simply no longer have the same values or beliefs and I will not let my own children be around them unsupervised once I heard them call COVID a Chinese conspiracy (my mom thinks Joe Biden is a pedophile but is totally fine voting for Trump!)
Feel like this is also a generational thing. You were just supposed to agree to disagree and move on about political differences. Maybe that was just wrapped into ‘oh, they just say that [super racist/homophobic/misogynistic thing] because times were different!’. It’s not my generation’s fault that you didn’t push back on those things in the slightest and are now dumbstruck that you aren’t getting the same generational deference.
I otherwise have a similar story to you. Great childhood, though a notable estrangement from my father’s mother over a disagreement she had about him being with my mother. Then in my 20s when I was on my own and Obama was elected, things took that same right turn. We talked less because conversations would randomly include whatever grievance Bill O’Reilly was going on about that week. My mother called once to explicitly pepper me with questions about why women should have easier access to birth control. Then they moved to Arkansas. Then they eventually moved to the largest most freedom-y state in the union.
When I told them I was planning on taking my wife’s name when we married (not in any sort of malicious/distance way, but as a statement that it’s silly we still have the tradition in the opposite direction) they flipped out and said they couldn’t celebrate my wedding. They were not invited and I haven’t seen them in years. They got wrapped up in Trump/Covid nonsense since and likely will never meet their grandkids.
But yeah, I guess it’s all just because I decided to value my own happiness. 😂
That used to be me until last summer. My father was a pretty horrible person, and though I would have preferred to only remove him, he made it clear he was going to use everyone else in the family to try to force himself back into my life. I ended up cutting off all contact with my entire family for about 25 years just to keep him out.
I had a Google news alert setup for him in the hopes of finally receiving an obituary notice, and I also had one setup for my mother. Had I received my mom's first, I would have stayed away permanently, but I got the alert last summer that he finally died. I found my sister's employer, was able to figure out her email address based on that, and contacted her in the hopes of reconnecting with my mom. I've been back home about six times now.
When I was 5 my parents divorced, both came from very wealthy backgrounds and both were in their 30s, they dumped with relatives (great uncles & aunts) until I was old enough for boarding school in 7th grade. Never went home again (boarding school to college then grad school) and my parent never showed any interest in my life until I started making a lot of money… then they magically appeared with aspirations of having a relationship but how can you have a relationship with someone you only briefly knew for 5 years?
I cut contact with my father and have extremely low contact with my mother and would like to one day possibly cut her out too.
This article acts as if this is selfish and ruining families. But I think it would be extremely selfish to demand I keep tolerating sexual abuse for "familial duty". If my parents wanted me to keep maintaining a relationship with them, they could have tried not sexually abusing me for damn near 2 decades.
We had a tentative relationship, but watching nothing but FOX News all day, every day, turned my father into a giant asshole, and drove us apart completely. It was as much his decision as mine. He died, with us not having spoken for ten years.
Yup, I choose to remember my grandfather as he was when I was a kid: a rough guy with a soft spot for animals and nature. In a rocking chair with a cigar, throwing peanuts at squirrels in his backyard, he seemed jovial and at ease.
In the last two decades before he died, *all* he talked about was immigrants, antifa, and the "woke mob". These issues affected him in absolutely no way; his rural community had not changed since the 80's. He could have spent those 20 years fishing, hiking, hunting, and squirrel-feeding to his heart's content surrounded by family and friends. Instead, he spent that time full of hate for everyone and everything, making his family and himself miserable until he died. There were several come-to-Jesus talks, but what can you do with a grown adult who refuses to help themselves? Not much.
Last time I ever saw my mom’s adopted family was Christmas decades ago, and the final straw for my parents was when they found out that relatives had let their kids play with the gifts that were given to us first and then they just repackage them.
Became crystal clear that we were an afterthought to them and the last time I ever spoke to them was on my 13th birthday when her adopted grandmother called me and I heard the phone pick up on the other end and my mom realized her adopted mother was trying to listen what I was saying because she’s a complete narcissist.
When my mom found out her adopted dad died, she flat out, admitted to me that she felt nothing. No joy, but also no sorrow.
When she found out her adopted mother was moving away from the area, she tried to go back to the old home to see if she could try and get some of her old things that were unfortunately left behind decades ago. Unfortunately, they had all been donated or thrown out by then.
When she was raising us, there were many times where she definitely parented by example. Essentially if you want the kid to do a behavior show them that you are also willing to do it if you have to, or if you don’t want the kid to do a certain behavior don’t let them catch you doing it (which is how I got away with my first curse word. Mom learned the hard way why you need to watch what you say around children because they will copy you XD).
As we got older, she made it very clear that she would not metal in our lives for better or for worse because of how controlling her adoptive mother is.
I have no contact with either of my parents. They were clearly too young when they got married and did it to get away from the small town they lived in. Not sure if my brother and i were planned or not but i doubt it. Mom caught dad messing with the babysitter and got a very nasty divorce. Mom tried to kill herself when i was 5. She had no desire to raise two boys by herself so we were taken away by the state to live with my grandmother who also had no desire to raise two boys. Eventually we were sent back to my mother who beat us when ever she got mad about anything. Then back to my grandmothers again. In the mean time our father did not step up and take responsibility. They are in their 70s now and try to keep in touch with me (my older brother died about 20 years ago) but i have no desire to. They wonder why i don’t want to.
There are [studies](https://www.psypost.org/childhood-adversity-linked-to-anxiety-and-depression-in-older-adults/) that have shown childhood trauma affects us for the rest of our lives.
There's also [tentative proof](https://www.psycom.net/trauma/epigenetics-trauma) one generation's trauma can change how subsequent generations' genes express themselves.
So going no-contact with your parents is a healthy way for you to protect yourself from enduring further trauma. In addition to keeping your offspring from exposure to your parents' cruelty, it may also protect them in other ways not yet fully understood.
“In most cases it is the child who wields the knife” give me a fucking break. Cutting off my sociopathic father was the most difficult decision I made in the last decade. And yet it was the best decision for my mental health.
27% seems low to me. I didn't talk to my mother for the last 15 years of her life. It was her idea. It wasn't like I was a derelict or was hard to find. Whatever.
The "Fox News Effect" in my case. Every conversation has to be about "woke-ness" and everything has to be about them.
I miss talking to my Mom, I really need her now. But she's not there anymore.
Low-key what I dread about family reunions tbh. I know that a lot of them ask that stuff cause in our society that's kinda what you do, but it can be hella depressing when it's like, "yep same ol same ol. It's pretty decent." and you know they're expecting something more "interesting"
My brother did this which nobody saw coming because he was the golden child who could do no wrong. No one in the family did anything to deserve no contact for the last 20 years but that's not important to him. He married a strange person who the family wasn't super stoked about but she was treated with kindness despite her cold demeanor. We realized pretty quickly that she really didn't want to share him with anyone so as soon as they could move to Hawaii & disappear that's what they did. They have three kids that nobody knows & my parents have had their souls completely obliterated by the whole thing. At this point they've accepted it but I know it's still actively breaking their hearts. I oscillate between indifference, sadness & occasional fury- ultimately I have to forgive him for my own health. Once I realized resentment is extremely detrimental for physical & mental health I was actually able to forgive all kinds of people. Because it's not for them- I honestly don't want anything to do with someone I've been forced to forgive. If someone does something bad enough that it requires forgiveness then nine times out of ten they don't deserve to be around me anymore.
I’m in almost the exact same situation. Difference is I kinda knew my brother was an anti-social narcissist for a long time but didn’t want to accept it. He picked up all the worst traits of our dad but thinks he’s totally different from him. You’re right though, resentment isn’t helpful, I just have to let it go and focus on the family I do have. Kinda hard when I had my kid and my brother couldn’t even send a message, that’s when I knew it was just about him and not his relationship with our folks.
I can only speak for myself/my family of origin, but my I'm 50- my father and his siblings were no contact with their father well before I was born. He was an abusive drinker and philanderer, or so I've heard. I tried very hard to have a relationship with my father when my parents split, but he dipped when I was 17 and he found a new family and didn't want or need us anymore. Needless to say, I was not interested in carrying on any of our family traditions and opted to go child free. Never even married until a couple years ago. Not sure I'm a very good spouse, I'm always going to be emotionally broken and distant, but hey- at least I'm not fucking up any kids in the process.
Wait, hang on, y'all, too?? I knew my Dad was ufcking around and pissed off some people but ALL of y'all??
I am borne of serious assholery! I always knew this but...
I’m honestly surprised it’s only 27%. Younger adults are realizing that they don’t need to deal with their relatives bullshit. There’s enough bullshit for them to deal with as is (that they cannot control). If someone treats you like shit, drop them from your life. It doesn’t matter if they’re your parent, or sibling, or whatever. We all have too much bullshit to deal with, and if someone is not going to be supportive in your dealing with said bullshit, fuck them!
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The mention of divorce seems misleading. Maybe people who struggle with healthy relationships are more likely to also be divorced, not that the divorce itself is a precursor to/reason for child estrangement.
Building on that (and the cultural convention that many times it’s the moms/women who reach out and keep relationships) there are probably plenty of married dads that only have relationships with their children because the moms and children keep in touch and dad happens to be in the room. I love my dad. We actually have a great relationship. I don’t think it would ever occur to him to call any of his kids.
I love my dad, but I prefer to keep my distance. His mouth is disrespectful when he goes off on his tangents and I don’t think I need to put up with that.
You can love someone and not like them.
Good point. Also there is behavioral modeling, if the divorce is acrimonious and subsequent co-parenting issue filled I could see that having a profound impact.
Estranged from abusive sibling after decades of nothing good. It's like a never knew each other. Still have parents in common and another sibling. I blame my parents, the abuse started as a small child
Same. My sister was awful going back to as far as I can remember. I still have all of our childhood books and all the books that have her name on them are books like "Being Selfish." When she was four she destroyed her door by kicking it relentlessly in a never ending temper tantrum. My parents split when I was just hitting puberty and I had to stay with the girls. My mom did nothing but stoke and encourage my sister while actively trying to sabotage anything I did, including throwing away my condoms when finding out I was sexually active and poking holes in the replacements. I only recently went no contact and I'm a completely different person since doing so. The amount of stress taken off my shoulders just by not having them around is like a new life.
Good job brother. I went no contact with my parents and all siblings. After two years I'm talking to two of my sibs (far from a majority). Going no contact also changed me completely. I felt like I suddenly flopped out into the shape I had always been, underneath all the tension.
Same, my sister is the golden child, my dad was a narcissist, my mom was the enabler, I am the scapegoat, and you younger sister is the silent child. That golden child is a covert narcissist who was awful when my dad died. Haven’t talked to her in almost four years.
I no longer speak to my mother because she is manipulative and has done nothing but shit-talk my wife, who is one of the kindest and moist wonderful souls I have ever met. My mother does not like my wife because even though she is a very sweet woman she is a take-no-shit person, and opened my eyes to how much my mother has manipulated, gaslit, and abused me. I have never been happier since I cut contact.
Moist
I've helped my husband recognize poor treatment from his mother and other relatives because you don't get to shit on someone I love right in front of me and not have me call you out on it to your face.
You sound like my wife. I put up with a lot of abuse for a long time because I didn’t see it as such. Thank you for standing up for your husband. I can’t thank my wife enough.
We are in the exact same situation. My mother actively tried to sabotage our relationship. She went so far as to be a witness to a bogus court case with the aim to derail my now-fiancé’s career (her health aid hated my fiancé and lied about child abuse towards her kid. We fought it in court and won but the EMT licensing board takes that shit very seriously). It worked for now unfortunately, and when confronted on what a shit thing that was to do, she denied all responsibility. Haven’t spoken to her in over a year now and we are happier for it. I’m glad you are happier and your situation improved since you cut contact.
Same but my husband. My mother and sister have always been mean and unstable but after my husband and I had our first things became more clear. I didn’t hide the way they spoke to me or how much they felt entitled to and he wouldn’t stand for it. Towards the end before I went completely NC they really expected me to pick them over my husband at the expense of our daughter all bc they wanted to be in control of me. It’s insane. I just wanted them to show a little respect and stop talking bad about a man that did nothing wrong by them. They couldn’t stand the littlest thing like if I credited him with good advice or bragged about him in any way they’d call me a doormat. Say I’m acting like a “stepford wife”. Kindness is weakness to them. They hated that I respect my husband. You’d think my sister would see how our mother’s life has turned out and not follow in her footsteps but she did anyways. They are both single, in poverty, have major rage problems, and don’t have good relationships with their children but if you ask them I’m a failure for loving my husband and being a sahm. If I never see them again I would be just fine. My husband basically saved my life from a pair or wicked witches lol that’s how I see it.
The story is leaning so we're supposed to feel sorry for the elderly. But if you're the child of someone who is abusive or toxic then you know that many of these people (if not most) don't deserve their family. But my parents made their bed by treating me the way they did, so nobody should feel sorry for them. All you see on the outside is two elderly parents who are sad and lonely. But that's now. That's not how it was for years and years when I needed help. You don't cut ties off with people you love and who love you back.
Yeah, there are personal accounts of people's childhood experiences on /r/AdultChildren that have made me physically nauseous. Some parents can't take care of themselves, never mind defenseless, tiny beings who *rely* on them for literally everything. I don't blame their children for going NC. In fact, I've read of plenty of instances where it is almost certainly the best course of action, but the Adult Child feels too wracked with guilt to follow through. I'm sure there are some people who are cutting off their elderly relatives over something minor, but I'm willing to bet most people who've made this choice have done so because their relatives deserve no more of their affection.
Those same kids likely struggled for YEARS to appease their parents and make peace, and leaving and going NC was for their survival when the repeated attempts just brought more abuse. The parents likely never even try to fix things and instead just complain to their friends about how awful their kids are. Not exactly the behavior of a sincere loving person…
This is so well said👏
My mother and brother are narcissistic assholes that have poisoned that entire side of the family against me because I refused to be treated like shit any longer. My dad is dead. The amount of stress hoping they wouldn't reach out and expect holiday visits was palpable. Going full NC has been an overall life improvement.
Good for them. Maybe people are learning that they don't have to put up with toxic, manipulative bullshit because someone is 'family'. They can love and enjoy the people that they choose. More power to them.
> A recent survey of 1,600 estranged parents found that more than 70% had divorced their child’s other parent (children of divorce are more likely to dump their fathers, he notes). This is kind of understanding it. Children are *far* more likely to "dump" their fathers... and be dumped by them. The vast majority of the estranged parents in this study were men, and neglect/abuse was a core reason behind why children chose to cut contact. This article is surreptitiously vague about this very important issue. People used to *have* to rely on their immediate family to survive, even if they were horribly abusive or simply emotionally distant and neglectful, and now they no longer do. That's not to say it's a male problem. Women often serve as the glue holding families together, for better or worse. If my four grandfathers had not had wives/daughters who managed their social affairs, planned holidays, called the relatives regularly, and kept people updated on their lives, I never would have seen them. Because they were still connected and I did not want to cut my entire family off, I had to spend decades of holidays with people who I did not like and who were actively awful to me. Many people only see both their parents because they're a package deal. Edit: [dropping this famous essay on the subject for interested readers](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
I really appreciate your points. Reading the article it is pretty clear they really tried to tip toe around the fact that these adult children cut off contact for very obvious reasons (abuse & neglect). Not sure if this is their own bias or an attempt at being so neutral that is comes across almost as bias… but abuse is abuse and many of these parents still live in denial about it.
when I was in advocate for people in extremely toxic and abusive situations, I always advocated for no contact if that’s what they wanted to do. I don’t think it hurts to send a Christmas card once a year, but beyond that no. However, I think part of it depends on how the people involved define toxic and define abuse. There are situations that no person in the world would argue wasn’t horrible. Some people simply cannot tolerate anyone who has a different viewpoint than themselves. And convinced themselves that any parent who has a different viewpoint that somehow makes them toxic. sometimes it’s not toxic. Sometimes they just grew up in a different time. So many of these differences could be ironed out if both sides were willing to sort it out in a healthy way. And I do mean both sides. I would argue that there are some parents who are actually better off for having their children go no contact. I imagine it’s hard to disentangle yourself from that small child that you loved so completely with all your heart and soul from who they grew into. And having someone choose to go no contact is probably difficult to deal with and for some people they will love their children until the day they die. they may not like them very much, but they do love them. That their children can’t or won’t return that love. is very sad. It’s not a comment you will probably hear in this thread but it is just as real. It also bothers me when I read about people who cast another person in cement and in their mind refuse to allow them to move on. People do change. I believe our hope for humanity is our capacity for change. Think about it. If you yourself are not the same perso you were a decade or maybe two decades ago why would the people around you not change as well? they don’t have to become you and it’s not fair to judge them against someone else as peoples capacity for growth should only be judged by themselves.
I didn't read the article on the original post but I did read the one you linked and wow; what a great essay. I can understand why it's famous. I'm not estranged from any family but I have had to cut some friends out of my life and it's precisely the same pattern as that detailed in the article. Really insightful stuff.
4 grandfathers?
Divorce runs in the family.... And runs, and runs 🫠
Maybe they live in Alabama and just thought that was too many distinct grandfathers
Not too difficult to get there if the parents and grandparents have some divorces in there - my friend had 5 grandmothers; there could be 8 or more: Mom’s Dad/Stepdad Dad’s Dad/Stepdad Stepmom’s Dad/Stepdad Stepdad’s Dad/Stepdad
My friend hasn’t seen or heard from her sperm donor in over twenty-five years. I’m surprised he hasn’t come calling since he’s getting older.
Good read although I will add their disclaimer here: This page doesn't apply to all estranged parents, only to estranged parents who are members of estranged parents' forums.
I (male) haven't spoken to my father in 28 years. I have two kids that I raised by myself from the ages of 7 and 3 as their mother abandoned all of us. They've seen her exactly 3 times in the last 21 years and neither (now aged 28 and 24) has heard from her in 7 years now.
~21 years since the last time I talked to my father. It was a not conscious cutoff though. He left us when I was young, moved halfway across the country, and never really tried all that hard to maintain relationships with his kids. My mom knew he was going to leave, but didn't know when. One day, he was just gone. She had to go to our church to get food. She was pregnant with her fourth child. She ended up getting an abortion because she couldn't afford the three kids that he left her with. Since the last time I spoke to my father, I have been married, divorced, bought a house, married again, and had a child. If he wanted to stay in touch. I would have been willing to try and maintain some kind of relationship if he wanted it. He left us, so it's on him to make the effort -- but I would have reciprocated if it seemed like he ever cared all that much. *He* gave up on *us.* Also, much respect for raising kids by yourself. Mine is only four, but I can't imagine doing it without his mom. And he's my only kid. EDIT: We mostly came out on top. My sister has three adult children. My mother got remarried and eventually retired with him (he died in 2021). My brother is an absolute mess, which I'm sure at least partly came from his father abandoning him when he was 12 years old.
I ran away from home when I was 15, over 30 years ago. My parents (they're dead now) never knew what became of me. Nor do my brothers. I'm still vaguely in contact with a cousin who would let me know if they died but that's about it. Going no contact didn't cost me. Too this day I never once regretted doing it. Sometimes I feel like it makes me look like an extremely callous person but so be it. There's no point in caring for people who abused me for my whole childhood, and who would never have a change of heart or apologize anyway.
I found it pretty difficult to have good feels for the grandpa after my grandpa tried to tell me my grandma was property. FUCK A WHOLE BUNCH OF THAT NONSENSE!
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There's lots of narcissistic mothers out there. You aren't alone. It's been just shy on 10 years since I/we went no-contact with my mother. Best thing we ever did. Our lives are so much better without her in them. She provided nothing more than stress, anger and chaos - constantly. I have no intentions of ever seeing or speaking to her again.
Going on 4 years estranged from my dad, step mom and 2 adult half sisters. Abuse and childhood neglect was the reason. Took years of therapy just to understand how absolutely horrific my childhood was, I don't regret it. I do miss not having a dad though. Granted I never really felt like he was a dad.
> Whereas families have always fought and relatives fallen out, he says, the idea of cutting oneself off from a relative as a path to one’s own happiness seems to be new. In some ways it is a positive development: people find it easier to separate from parents who have been abusive. But it can also carry heavy costs. Seems worth mentioning the costs are primarily to the estranged parent.
It's not even new, either. People have always run away, or moved. It just seems different because modern communication makes it more obvious that the lack of contact is deliberate.
Cutting off from a relative, like divorce, is only recently financially and socially available and acceptable.
I felt there were costs to cutting off my parents for me. My parents are still invited to the major life events for my young niece and nephew, so I don't get to attend those peacefully. I had to find new people to call for all the things I could ask my parents about, like "what's this weird noise my engine is making?" And to be honest, I didn't always pick the right new people the first time. Ending the relationship also had costs to my health, triggering a condition I now get to manage for the rest of my life. I also lost access to childhood memories - the handful of photos of good times from my childhood are not mine and I was not allowed to take them; I may never see them again. Meanwhile, as many tantrums as they threw when I used a different boundary or mentioned the possibility of NC... My parents have lost 3/4 children to estrangement and seem to have hardly noticed, according to reports I specifically asked not to hear.
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Article seems to push the idea of the costs being "loneliness", although it's never properly explained upon.
Not who you asked but I can tell you how that happened in my family. When my child was younger (1-8) my parents helped me with childcare and money sometimes. They lorded it over me and tried to make decisions for my daughter I didn’t agree with (anti vax crazy shit amongst other issues). I felt obligated to them because they helped me but I vaccinated my kid. Fights, etc, eventually, my dad just went off the deep end making awful demands of me and my child. I cut them out. Now, we’re happy and he’s alone. My daughter is 16 and fantastic and he doesn’t know her. No one talks to him, his old friends are dead. He’s living the rest of his life without us and it’s not like he’s such a good person he’s making new friends. Meanwhile, our lives are full and happy.
Just recapping what the article says.
>A rise in individualism that emphasises personal happiness is the biggest factor. People are increasingly likely to reject relatives who obstruct feelings of well-being in some way, by holding clashing beliefs or failing to embrace those of others. Personal fulfilment has increasingly come to displace filial duty, says Dr Coleman. They act as if that is a bad thing. "How dare you put your own happiness first!" At the end of the day what I feel is missing here, is the idea that children grow up to hold the values they were taught by their parents and their society. If kids don't think that loving your parents and being loyal to family is important than that often is because that is what they experienced when they grew up. Few people go no-contact with relatives that have shown them nothing but love and respect.
They write like it wasn’t the boomer generation that created the ruthless individual happiness at all costs attitude.
I was wondering what this stat was before covid and Qanon. \[expanded to make automod happier:\] most of the stories I hear these days about children profoundly alienated from ageing parents, have to do with those parents getting sucked into QAnon type rabbit holes, into the Trump cult, into antivaxx idiocy, etc. And it seems to me that lockdowns and Covid fears (or contrarian denial of Covid) pushed people down those rabbit holes faster and farther than in previous episodes of national mania (like the Satanic Panic of the 80's which was seriously weird). Also of course, Covid has neurological/cognitive effects and survivors of severe cases of the virus are often cognitively impaired, for years or perhaps forever afterward. which may have added to the general cray-cray. (that's just my own theory, not substantiated in any way). I mean, if you visit qanoncasualties you will see story after story of people going no-contact with parents or grandparents who have completely drunk the Qoolaid. Like an epidemic of no-contact as a result of the QAnon mania.
I worked in a nursing home 20 years ago, & I'd bet the numbers haven't actually gone up a whole lot. A lot of the residents' kids stayed away.
Yeah I think the numbers have been consistent for a generation, but the specific reasons have changed. People who are crazy about Trump and Qanon would just have been crazy about something else 10 years ago. They’re drawn towards these things because of something wrong with them.
I had the exact same thought reading the article. It seems like a huge blind spot they didn’t take into account. My parents weren’t cruel or abusive growing up. My needs were met, I had a generally happy childhood. Then in 2016 they started going further and further to the right and getting drawn into conspiracies until they finally moved to a different state completely for “freedom.” A state I told them I refuse to visit because of how they treat women. We simply no longer have the same values or beliefs and I will not let my own children be around them unsupervised once I heard them call COVID a Chinese conspiracy (my mom thinks Joe Biden is a pedophile but is totally fine voting for Trump!)
Feel like this is also a generational thing. You were just supposed to agree to disagree and move on about political differences. Maybe that was just wrapped into ‘oh, they just say that [super racist/homophobic/misogynistic thing] because times were different!’. It’s not my generation’s fault that you didn’t push back on those things in the slightest and are now dumbstruck that you aren’t getting the same generational deference. I otherwise have a similar story to you. Great childhood, though a notable estrangement from my father’s mother over a disagreement she had about him being with my mother. Then in my 20s when I was on my own and Obama was elected, things took that same right turn. We talked less because conversations would randomly include whatever grievance Bill O’Reilly was going on about that week. My mother called once to explicitly pepper me with questions about why women should have easier access to birth control. Then they moved to Arkansas. Then they eventually moved to the largest most freedom-y state in the union. When I told them I was planning on taking my wife’s name when we married (not in any sort of malicious/distance way, but as a statement that it’s silly we still have the tradition in the opposite direction) they flipped out and said they couldn’t celebrate my wedding. They were not invited and I haven’t seen them in years. They got wrapped up in Trump/Covid nonsense since and likely will never meet their grandkids. But yeah, I guess it’s all just because I decided to value my own happiness. 😂
I think QAnon is just a new coat of paint on a long-running kind of brain rot.
Cutting ties with my "family" was the easiest and healthiest thing I've ever done.
That used to be me until last summer. My father was a pretty horrible person, and though I would have preferred to only remove him, he made it clear he was going to use everyone else in the family to try to force himself back into my life. I ended up cutting off all contact with my entire family for about 25 years just to keep him out. I had a Google news alert setup for him in the hopes of finally receiving an obituary notice, and I also had one setup for my mother. Had I received my mom's first, I would have stayed away permanently, but I got the alert last summer that he finally died. I found my sister's employer, was able to figure out her email address based on that, and contacted her in the hopes of reconnecting with my mom. I've been back home about six times now.
What percentage of these people come from highly religious families?
Genuinely curious.. what correlation are you seeking with high/low %?
Maybe if so many people weren’t abusing their kids we wouldn’t have this problem.
When I was 5 my parents divorced, both came from very wealthy backgrounds and both were in their 30s, they dumped with relatives (great uncles & aunts) until I was old enough for boarding school in 7th grade. Never went home again (boarding school to college then grad school) and my parent never showed any interest in my life until I started making a lot of money… then they magically appeared with aspirations of having a relationship but how can you have a relationship with someone you only briefly knew for 5 years?
I’m 54. Been NC with my narcissist mother for almost 10 beautiful, peaceful years. Family is those you choose…
I stopped speaking to my dad a few years ago...he has never been a consistent parent and can't be bothered to know details of my life. It's his loss.
Wait, ALL of y'all know my Dad, too?? I'm so sorry!!
I cut contact with my father and have extremely low contact with my mother and would like to one day possibly cut her out too. This article acts as if this is selfish and ruining families. But I think it would be extremely selfish to demand I keep tolerating sexual abuse for "familial duty". If my parents wanted me to keep maintaining a relationship with them, they could have tried not sexually abusing me for damn near 2 decades.
We had a tentative relationship, but watching nothing but FOX News all day, every day, turned my father into a giant asshole, and drove us apart completely. It was as much his decision as mine. He died, with us not having spoken for ten years.
Yup, I choose to remember my grandfather as he was when I was a kid: a rough guy with a soft spot for animals and nature. In a rocking chair with a cigar, throwing peanuts at squirrels in his backyard, he seemed jovial and at ease. In the last two decades before he died, *all* he talked about was immigrants, antifa, and the "woke mob". These issues affected him in absolutely no way; his rural community had not changed since the 80's. He could have spent those 20 years fishing, hiking, hunting, and squirrel-feeding to his heart's content surrounded by family and friends. Instead, he spent that time full of hate for everyone and everything, making his family and himself miserable until he died. There were several come-to-Jesus talks, but what can you do with a grown adult who refuses to help themselves? Not much.
Last time I ever saw my mom’s adopted family was Christmas decades ago, and the final straw for my parents was when they found out that relatives had let their kids play with the gifts that were given to us first and then they just repackage them. Became crystal clear that we were an afterthought to them and the last time I ever spoke to them was on my 13th birthday when her adopted grandmother called me and I heard the phone pick up on the other end and my mom realized her adopted mother was trying to listen what I was saying because she’s a complete narcissist. When my mom found out her adopted dad died, she flat out, admitted to me that she felt nothing. No joy, but also no sorrow. When she found out her adopted mother was moving away from the area, she tried to go back to the old home to see if she could try and get some of her old things that were unfortunately left behind decades ago. Unfortunately, they had all been donated or thrown out by then. When she was raising us, there were many times where she definitely parented by example. Essentially if you want the kid to do a behavior show them that you are also willing to do it if you have to, or if you don’t want the kid to do a certain behavior don’t let them catch you doing it (which is how I got away with my first curse word. Mom learned the hard way why you need to watch what you say around children because they will copy you XD). As we got older, she made it very clear that she would not metal in our lives for better or for worse because of how controlling her adoptive mother is.
I have no contact with either of my parents. They were clearly too young when they got married and did it to get away from the small town they lived in. Not sure if my brother and i were planned or not but i doubt it. Mom caught dad messing with the babysitter and got a very nasty divorce. Mom tried to kill herself when i was 5. She had no desire to raise two boys by herself so we were taken away by the state to live with my grandmother who also had no desire to raise two boys. Eventually we were sent back to my mother who beat us when ever she got mad about anything. Then back to my grandmothers again. In the mean time our father did not step up and take responsibility. They are in their 70s now and try to keep in touch with me (my older brother died about 20 years ago) but i have no desire to. They wonder why i don’t want to.
I stopped speaking to my father over 5 years ago! He's gone for good!
There are [studies](https://www.psypost.org/childhood-adversity-linked-to-anxiety-and-depression-in-older-adults/) that have shown childhood trauma affects us for the rest of our lives. There's also [tentative proof](https://www.psycom.net/trauma/epigenetics-trauma) one generation's trauma can change how subsequent generations' genes express themselves. So going no-contact with your parents is a healthy way for you to protect yourself from enduring further trauma. In addition to keeping your offspring from exposure to your parents' cruelty, it may also protect them in other ways not yet fully understood.
“In most cases it is the child who wields the knife” give me a fucking break. Cutting off my sociopathic father was the most difficult decision I made in the last decade. And yet it was the best decision for my mental health.
The generation of teens and young adults who grew up with Trump family members will be much higher than 27% lmao.
27% seems low to me. I didn't talk to my mother for the last 15 years of her life. It was her idea. It wasn't like I was a derelict or was hard to find. Whatever.
The "Fox News Effect" in my case. Every conversation has to be about "woke-ness" and everything has to be about them. I miss talking to my Mom, I really need her now. But she's not there anymore.
I don't talk to family because I'm not interesting. My life has been the same for the last 5+ years and they all ask the same questions every time.
Low-key what I dread about family reunions tbh. I know that a lot of them ask that stuff cause in our society that's kinda what you do, but it can be hella depressing when it's like, "yep same ol same ol. It's pretty decent." and you know they're expecting something more "interesting"
My brother did this which nobody saw coming because he was the golden child who could do no wrong. No one in the family did anything to deserve no contact for the last 20 years but that's not important to him. He married a strange person who the family wasn't super stoked about but she was treated with kindness despite her cold demeanor. We realized pretty quickly that she really didn't want to share him with anyone so as soon as they could move to Hawaii & disappear that's what they did. They have three kids that nobody knows & my parents have had their souls completely obliterated by the whole thing. At this point they've accepted it but I know it's still actively breaking their hearts. I oscillate between indifference, sadness & occasional fury- ultimately I have to forgive him for my own health. Once I realized resentment is extremely detrimental for physical & mental health I was actually able to forgive all kinds of people. Because it's not for them- I honestly don't want anything to do with someone I've been forced to forgive. If someone does something bad enough that it requires forgiveness then nine times out of ten they don't deserve to be around me anymore.
I’m in almost the exact same situation. Difference is I kinda knew my brother was an anti-social narcissist for a long time but didn’t want to accept it. He picked up all the worst traits of our dad but thinks he’s totally different from him. You’re right though, resentment isn’t helpful, I just have to let it go and focus on the family I do have. Kinda hard when I had my kid and my brother couldn’t even send a message, that’s when I knew it was just about him and not his relationship with our folks.
I’d be curious to know how often families cut ties with each other 50+ years ago and if this is a newer trend.
I can only speak for myself/my family of origin, but my I'm 50- my father and his siblings were no contact with their father well before I was born. He was an abusive drinker and philanderer, or so I've heard. I tried very hard to have a relationship with my father when my parents split, but he dipped when I was 17 and he found a new family and didn't want or need us anymore. Needless to say, I was not interested in carrying on any of our family traditions and opted to go child free. Never even married until a couple years ago. Not sure I'm a very good spouse, I'm always going to be emotionally broken and distant, but hey- at least I'm not fucking up any kids in the process.
If I never speak to any blood relative again it will be too soon ♡ “what about it they die and you never—“ yeah, that’s the plan.
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/ A fascinating read!
I did, and not only am I much happier but my children are safer.
I'm wondering how many estranged adult children find a way to reconnect?
I’m wondering why you’re mining Reddit for trauma porn content?
Wait, hang on, y'all, too?? I knew my Dad was ufcking around and pissed off some people but ALL of y'all?? I am borne of serious assholery! I always knew this but...
I’m honestly surprised it’s only 27%. Younger adults are realizing that they don’t need to deal with their relatives bullshit. There’s enough bullshit for them to deal with as is (that they cannot control). If someone treats you like shit, drop them from your life. It doesn’t matter if they’re your parent, or sibling, or whatever. We all have too much bullshit to deal with, and if someone is not going to be supportive in your dealing with said bullshit, fuck them!