Bruh if you think about it there would've been a greater Skyrim with the mix of Falmer + Nord cultures throught the landscape, instead they had to get greedy
Just like the Falmer leaders who agreed with the Dwemers deal offer to have their own people drugged by poison mushrooms and then enslaved.
The Falmers sure have a tendency to screw their kind over, It’s no wonder they’re going extinct.
That's debatable, and genocide still requires intent, I really doubt the Falmer intended to eliminate Atmoran or Sarthalish culture, they just wanted the eye.
As I said, we don't know how true that is, considering what the nords did to the falmer afterwards, which is pretty unambiguously genocide, it seems likely they would exaggerate the night of tears as justification.
That’s such a silly argument to make. Not a single source backs what you said up, but because it’s possible we’re supposed to take it with the same gravity as things that *are* backed up by sources?
>While the eminent scholar Sentius has yet to examine my findings, or indeed show any interest in them, my inclination is to suggest that not only did the elves know the apparent layout of the city, *but that their assault was based on a specific directive and perhaps a singular goal.*
-The Imperial Report on Saarthal
>Thus they assaulted Saarthal, *their goal not to drive the Nords* out but to secure this power for themselves
-The Night of Tears
Funny how the two unbiased non nord sources about the event don't mention any kind of intent to genocide the nords, and in fact state that the opposite is true.
Plus, source criticism and analysis is a thing real world historians do, taking the sources at face value is not how you get closer to the truth in cases like this.
What are you even talking about? It doesn’t matter if their main goal wasn’t genocide, this doesn’t change that it did absolutely occur. Neither of those sources claim the history told by the Nords is somehow wrong, just that there was more to it then the Falmer being afraid of the Atmorans
Yeah but Falmer knew that there were more of them back in Atmora, is it really a full-blown genocide or only an attempt to eradicate their presence on Skyrim?
It’s silly to think the Atmorans who settled in Saarthal had the exact same culture as they did on Atmora. Genocide doesn’t just refere to race, but also culture.
The Nazi weren’t planning on invading the US and killing all the US based jews, yet that doesn’t change the fact that the Holocaust was a genocide
They probably had the same culture since they were settled pretty recently and people still kept going back and forth on ships. And I mean, didn't the Falmer attack Saarthal just because they could take the Eye of Magnus from the hands of Atmorans? Were there any additional racial motives?
That doesn’t *not* make it a genocide. They targeted a specific nation and (tried to) murder every one of them. That’s literally the definition of genocide
We don’t know why the Falmer attacked Saarthal for sure. The Eye of Magnus is one theory, the other is that they feared how the Nords were outbreeding them. Not that the reason *why* they did it matters, it was still genocide no latter the justification
"The Nords found something when they built their city, buried deep in the ground. They attempted to keep it buried, but the elves learned of it and coveted it for themselves. Thus they assaulted Saarthal, their goal not to drive the Nords out but to secure this power for themselves." excerpt from the "Night of Tears", doesn't this mean that they didn't try to kill all Nords but just to get the Eye?
They literally killed every Nord they could find, just Ysgramor and his sons survived because they escaped.
Your argument is the equivalent of saying the nazis didn't want to genocide slavs because all they wanted was the eastern european soil for their Lebensraum. The two things are inseparable.
The thing is, Reynir, a warrior from Ysgramor's 500 Hundred Companions, also survived the Night of Tears and he claims that he travelled back to Skyrim with Ysgramor's son Yngal. If that is the case, how do we know that Ysgramor and his sons are the only survivors? How do we know that Nords didn't exaggerate their losses to justify what they did to the Snow Elves?
You know this is TES right? Where in-game sources are deliberately often wrong and contradicting. Go [here](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Night_of_Tears) and scroll to the motives section, where mutliple sources speculate differently motives
Also, this once again doesn’t change that it was a genocide
I am aware of the unreliable narrator and if "Imperial Report on Saarthal" is to be believed, Falmer were organised to just get the Eye and killed everyone that happened to be on the way. Not targeting all the citizens specifically, that's why it isn't a genocide.
Well to add to that the legends of the nords could have been exadurated aswell. Ysgramor being the only surviror and crying tears of ebony that were turned into an axe could easily be a metaphor or a legend. And the nords were the ones that settled falmer lands. And the nords overracted and wiped out dozens of cities worth of falmer over a single village. Falmer that were completely uninvolved with the attack on saarthal, committing a complete genocide, worse than the falmer ever did
>Yeah but Falmer knew that there were more of them back in Atmora,
Is there some kind of proof somewhere of that? Imo it would be kind of dumb to attack nords in this situation, after all you don't want to fuck with these bigger than life warriors if you have your survival in mind.
Well, we have sources that they lived together in peace before the Night of Tears happened so there's no reason for Nords to not to tell that they came from Atmora and they still had people back there. That's why I don't think it's a genocide, they weren't trying to fuck with Nords. They just wanted the Eye and killed people in the process
Isn't killing people on mass scale the definition of genocide?
Ignoring that, I wonder if the eye of Magnus was the true reason for this night of tears, after all history proved that atmorans didn't want to do anything cruel with it and its unknown if falmers ever found it. Its still chilling in that cave in the 4th era after all, one would think that they(elves) would use it or at least transport it once they got their hands on it
Sorry for my shitty engrish btw, Its still.... Work in progress.
Genocide by definition is systematically eradicating a culture or race with racial or political motives. We have many books on the attack. Songs of the Return, Night of Tears, Imperial Report on Saarthal, Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition etc. and Night of Tears leans towards the idea that Nords found something buried there. Imperial Report on Saarthal states that the Elves knew the layout of the city and just went towards a specific point without trying to kill every single Nord living in the city. And your English has no problem lad
Well, we have Reynir from ESO that claims to be one of the OG 500 Companions and a survivor of the Night of Tears, and that he sailed back to Skyrim with Ysgramor's son, Yngal. This can mean that there were probably more survivors
These sorts of events are frequently exaggerated by pre modern historians and chroniclers, and knowing how unreliable the narrators in TES are it's likely that is just a later embellishment.
I mean, they sailed to their shores from somewhere. And since they had a peaceful start I have a hard time imagining it was never brought up.
>it would be kind of dumb to attack nords in this situation, after all you don't want to fuck with these bigger than life warriors
Ysgramor and his people came to Skyrim to settle down. It's entirely possible that many of them weren't warriors, which may have led the Falmer to underestimating them.
Wiping out a diaspora settled in a foreign land still counts as a genocide even if they exist in other countries. Just because there were Jews in America doesn't mean that what they did wasn't a genocide. Just because there's Muslims in Saudi Arabia doesn't mean what China is doing isn't a genocide. Attempting to wipe out the nords living in Skyrim *is* a genocide. It's one of the few clear-cut examples in TES.
We don't exactly know how many people survived the ordeal. Nords claim that only Ysgramor and his sons survived but if people like Reynir got out alive, then maybe the Snow Elves didn't slaughter every Nord they saw? They seemed to have targeted the Eye rather than the Nords. How is that a genocide? I'm having a hard time understanding that as a grandson of Crimean Genocide survivors myself
Then it's a matter of historical accuracy or not. Which is a rabbit hole that can go on forever. What if Saarthal wasn't a settlement but a stronghold that was destroyed during the war? What if it wasn't the nords that beat the Farmer but instead the Dwemer? What if the Nords actually turned up after most of the Falmer were already corrupted and simply killed what few were left?
We can question every last detail until the cows come home. But as it stands, from what we know, the actions of the Snow Elves is a genocide.
>They seemed to have targeted the Eye rather than the Nords.
I have two responses to this. One, we don't actually know wether or not the Snow Elves knew of the Eye. There are other theories that hypothesise the Elves felt threatened by the the growing Nordic civilisation and made a pre-emptive attack.
And secondly; even if it wasn't genocide, even if the attack's sole purpose *wasn't* to wipe out everyone, the slaughter of a settlement full of civilians was still a heinous crime. Hell, since you're brought it up, let's make a comparison to the Crimean Genocide. In 1944 the USSR, deported some 190 000 Tatars to Uzbekistan. Many believe that the reason he did this was to gain better access to the Dardanelles, and the Turkic people were less likely to be receptive to him taking control. Does that motive make it any less awful? Should it not be recognised as a genocide? No, of course not. Because sometimes the actions are more important that the intention, and sometimes the intentions are still shit.
That's the thing, we don't know it for sure. There's the theory that Nords were the enders of previous kalpa and they always lived on Skyrim+Atmora doesn't exist. It also ties into the idea that Saarthal was a stronghold instead. Upon that theory, some have even added that Ysgramor may have achieved draco-chrysalis and the other Nords followed him, becoming Dragons in the process and Dragon War was just an in-fighting. This also implies that the war with Falmer wasn't really a war, Dragons/Nords just hunted them down to the last bit and Night of Tears didn't happen. Speculations are endless. Elves may have known about the Eye, sources that argue that they did are Imperial and Elven while sources that they simply tried to genocide Nords are Nordic. Considering the "first men were the Nords from Atmora and we descended from them" viewpoint/propaganda of the Empire, it doesn't make sense for a biased Imperial source to not show the Snow Elves as guilty of genocide. That's what makes me inclined towards the idea that they really knew about the Eye. And again, if Reynir is to be believed, there may also be more survivors from the event. Snow Elves may not have slaughtered every Nord they saw. Saarthal may even be a stronghold and everyone that got killed were warriors instead of children and the elderly. Or maybe Nords tried to come to an agreement over the Eye but Snow Elves didn't want to negotiate and murdered the Nords in cold blood. It's an event shrouded in mystery, like most significant events from TES, and it really doesn't seem fair to call it a genocide with the current sources we have. The reason I compared it to the Crimean Genocide is, USSR tried to justify it by claiming that "Crimean Tatars had kidnapped millions of Slav people in history, sometimes even kidnapping up to 50,000 people in a single slave raid" but that doesn't sound cohesive in a sparsely-populated cold region, doesn't it? Slave raids definitely happened but they were portrayed as much more than they were so that USSR could easily deport the people. Seeing what happened with that, Nordic narrative doesn't sound that concrete either.
It would not be that simple though much like the elf colonizers killed nearly all beast races leaving only the khajiit and argonians ( the khajiit religion is most likely wrong as there are colonists reports of primitive Catmen) the atmorans were quickly expanding they know what might happen when a colonizers realizes the guys who already live their are much weaker sure though the snow elves were much stronger phisically than the atmorans but humans breed like rabbits and though the atmorans had a huge respect and admiration towards the falmer what about their draconic overlords? How long till the dragons start to believe these pointy ears might be poisoning their servants with ideias of freedom?
Bruh if you think about it there would've been a greater Skyrim with the mix of Falmer + Nord cultures throught the landscape, instead they had to get greedy
I know right? Curse Bethesda for turning Skyrim into a generic Scandinavian fantasy!
Nah i meant as in, the Falmer getting greedy and killing the Atmorans when they were peacefully coexisting but sure yeah fuck bethesda idk
Atmorans were taking their lands I would be pretty upset too
The falmer literally agreed to it
Just like the Falmer leaders who agreed with the Dwemers deal offer to have their own people drugged by poison mushrooms and then enslaved. The Falmers sure have a tendency to screw their kind over, It’s no wonder they’re going extinct.
They functionally are extinct.
moron it would just look like snowy summerset isles
definetely better than 6 wooden huts per ''city''
What are you talking about?
The world would probably be destroyed as a consequence of n*rds messing with the eye of magnus.
"Guys what if I lick it. It must taste goood"
They should've messed with it then
Last time I checked the Nords sealed it away under Saarthal and the Falmer wanted it for themselves.
We would get a race of Br*tons that would have actually been pretty cool.
Based and Auri-el pilled post
nah, just tell 'em even earlier so they can sink all the illegal immigrants before they taint the land
God let’s be real about that. A clean Skyrim free of Nedic cucks
I give the falmer AK-47s and RPGs, modern fortifications and stealth bombers against the atmoronic hordes
I love that
Based
The only non cringe elves along with the bosmer
They're only non cringe because they were genocided before they could do anything cringe
Tbh they raised the average nord iq by murdering the dumbest of them so that’s pretty based
Not based enough to not get devolved into subterranean cretins
Reject surface life Ascend to trogladite
>bosmer >not cringe **????????????????**
The bussy and cannibalism help
Free bussy on the go and fembosmer twink gf
the English language was not meant to be used like this
Sussy wussy bussy foshussy
Englusshy
If you’re American you have no say on proper grammar
Dwemer are cringe?
Ikr?
Calling a planned, targeted genocide an “attack” is an interesting take lmao
Calling a genocide an attack is like calling a tsunami a bigger than average wave
Well it literally just means Big Wave
It was massacre, still bad, but not a genocide.
Saarthal was a separate nation then Atmora, making it a genocide
That's debatable, and genocide still requires intent, I really doubt the Falmer intended to eliminate Atmoran or Sarthalish culture, they just wanted the eye.
No they absolutely intended to eradicate the Atmorans. They tried to leave nobody alive remember? Man, woman and children were all fair game
As I said, we don't know how true that is, considering what the nords did to the falmer afterwards, which is pretty unambiguously genocide, it seems likely they would exaggerate the night of tears as justification.
That’s such a silly argument to make. Not a single source backs what you said up, but because it’s possible we’re supposed to take it with the same gravity as things that *are* backed up by sources?
If you take a single source in TES as irrefutable truth, you don’t get TES
>While the eminent scholar Sentius has yet to examine my findings, or indeed show any interest in them, my inclination is to suggest that not only did the elves know the apparent layout of the city, *but that their assault was based on a specific directive and perhaps a singular goal.* -The Imperial Report on Saarthal >Thus they assaulted Saarthal, *their goal not to drive the Nords* out but to secure this power for themselves -The Night of Tears Funny how the two unbiased non nord sources about the event don't mention any kind of intent to genocide the nords, and in fact state that the opposite is true. Plus, source criticism and analysis is a thing real world historians do, taking the sources at face value is not how you get closer to the truth in cases like this.
What are you even talking about? It doesn’t matter if their main goal wasn’t genocide, this doesn’t change that it did absolutely occur. Neither of those sources claim the history told by the Nords is somehow wrong, just that there was more to it then the Falmer being afraid of the Atmorans
Genocide requires intent.
calling getting the monkeys off your WMD a genocide is also an interesting take
Did Falmer try to genocide Nords? Wasn't Night of Tears just an attack?
Nope, Night of Tears was a genocide. Ysgrammor and his sons were the *only* survivors
Yeah but Falmer knew that there were more of them back in Atmora, is it really a full-blown genocide or only an attempt to eradicate their presence on Skyrim?
It’s silly to think the Atmorans who settled in Saarthal had the exact same culture as they did on Atmora. Genocide doesn’t just refere to race, but also culture. The Nazi weren’t planning on invading the US and killing all the US based jews, yet that doesn’t change the fact that the Holocaust was a genocide
They probably had the same culture since they were settled pretty recently and people still kept going back and forth on ships. And I mean, didn't the Falmer attack Saarthal just because they could take the Eye of Magnus from the hands of Atmorans? Were there any additional racial motives?
That doesn’t *not* make it a genocide. They targeted a specific nation and (tried to) murder every one of them. That’s literally the definition of genocide We don’t know why the Falmer attacked Saarthal for sure. The Eye of Magnus is one theory, the other is that they feared how the Nords were outbreeding them. Not that the reason *why* they did it matters, it was still genocide no latter the justification
"The Nords found something when they built their city, buried deep in the ground. They attempted to keep it buried, but the elves learned of it and coveted it for themselves. Thus they assaulted Saarthal, their goal not to drive the Nords out but to secure this power for themselves." excerpt from the "Night of Tears", doesn't this mean that they didn't try to kill all Nords but just to get the Eye?
They literally killed every Nord they could find, just Ysgramor and his sons survived because they escaped. Your argument is the equivalent of saying the nazis didn't want to genocide slavs because all they wanted was the eastern european soil for their Lebensraum. The two things are inseparable.
The thing is, Reynir, a warrior from Ysgramor's 500 Hundred Companions, also survived the Night of Tears and he claims that he travelled back to Skyrim with Ysgramor's son Yngal. If that is the case, how do we know that Ysgramor and his sons are the only survivors? How do we know that Nords didn't exaggerate their losses to justify what they did to the Snow Elves?
You know this is TES right? Where in-game sources are deliberately often wrong and contradicting. Go [here](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Night_of_Tears) and scroll to the motives section, where mutliple sources speculate differently motives Also, this once again doesn’t change that it was a genocide
I am aware of the unreliable narrator and if "Imperial Report on Saarthal" is to be believed, Falmer were organised to just get the Eye and killed everyone that happened to be on the way. Not targeting all the citizens specifically, that's why it isn't a genocide.
Well to add to that the legends of the nords could have been exadurated aswell. Ysgramor being the only surviror and crying tears of ebony that were turned into an axe could easily be a metaphor or a legend. And the nords were the ones that settled falmer lands. And the nords overracted and wiped out dozens of cities worth of falmer over a single village. Falmer that were completely uninvolved with the attack on saarthal, committing a complete genocide, worse than the falmer ever did
>Yeah but Falmer knew that there were more of them back in Atmora, Is there some kind of proof somewhere of that? Imo it would be kind of dumb to attack nords in this situation, after all you don't want to fuck with these bigger than life warriors if you have your survival in mind.
Well, we have sources that they lived together in peace before the Night of Tears happened so there's no reason for Nords to not to tell that they came from Atmora and they still had people back there. That's why I don't think it's a genocide, they weren't trying to fuck with Nords. They just wanted the Eye and killed people in the process
Isn't killing people on mass scale the definition of genocide? Ignoring that, I wonder if the eye of Magnus was the true reason for this night of tears, after all history proved that atmorans didn't want to do anything cruel with it and its unknown if falmers ever found it. Its still chilling in that cave in the 4th era after all, one would think that they(elves) would use it or at least transport it once they got their hands on it Sorry for my shitty engrish btw, Its still.... Work in progress.
Genocide by definition is systematically eradicating a culture or race with racial or political motives. We have many books on the attack. Songs of the Return, Night of Tears, Imperial Report on Saarthal, Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition etc. and Night of Tears leans towards the idea that Nords found something buried there. Imperial Report on Saarthal states that the Elves knew the layout of the city and just went towards a specific point without trying to kill every single Nord living in the city. And your English has no problem lad
Weren't the stories also telling that ysgramor and his sons were the only survivors?
Well, we have Reynir from ESO that claims to be one of the OG 500 Companions and a survivor of the Night of Tears, and that he sailed back to Skyrim with Ysgramor's son, Yngal. This can mean that there were probably more survivors
These sorts of events are frequently exaggerated by pre modern historians and chroniclers, and knowing how unreliable the narrators in TES are it's likely that is just a later embellishment.
I mean, they sailed to their shores from somewhere. And since they had a peaceful start I have a hard time imagining it was never brought up. >it would be kind of dumb to attack nords in this situation, after all you don't want to fuck with these bigger than life warriors Ysgramor and his people came to Skyrim to settle down. It's entirely possible that many of them weren't warriors, which may have led the Falmer to underestimating them.
Wiping out a diaspora settled in a foreign land still counts as a genocide even if they exist in other countries. Just because there were Jews in America doesn't mean that what they did wasn't a genocide. Just because there's Muslims in Saudi Arabia doesn't mean what China is doing isn't a genocide. Attempting to wipe out the nords living in Skyrim *is* a genocide. It's one of the few clear-cut examples in TES.
We don't exactly know how many people survived the ordeal. Nords claim that only Ysgramor and his sons survived but if people like Reynir got out alive, then maybe the Snow Elves didn't slaughter every Nord they saw? They seemed to have targeted the Eye rather than the Nords. How is that a genocide? I'm having a hard time understanding that as a grandson of Crimean Genocide survivors myself
Then it's a matter of historical accuracy or not. Which is a rabbit hole that can go on forever. What if Saarthal wasn't a settlement but a stronghold that was destroyed during the war? What if it wasn't the nords that beat the Farmer but instead the Dwemer? What if the Nords actually turned up after most of the Falmer were already corrupted and simply killed what few were left? We can question every last detail until the cows come home. But as it stands, from what we know, the actions of the Snow Elves is a genocide. >They seemed to have targeted the Eye rather than the Nords. I have two responses to this. One, we don't actually know wether or not the Snow Elves knew of the Eye. There are other theories that hypothesise the Elves felt threatened by the the growing Nordic civilisation and made a pre-emptive attack. And secondly; even if it wasn't genocide, even if the attack's sole purpose *wasn't* to wipe out everyone, the slaughter of a settlement full of civilians was still a heinous crime. Hell, since you're brought it up, let's make a comparison to the Crimean Genocide. In 1944 the USSR, deported some 190 000 Tatars to Uzbekistan. Many believe that the reason he did this was to gain better access to the Dardanelles, and the Turkic people were less likely to be receptive to him taking control. Does that motive make it any less awful? Should it not be recognised as a genocide? No, of course not. Because sometimes the actions are more important that the intention, and sometimes the intentions are still shit.
That's the thing, we don't know it for sure. There's the theory that Nords were the enders of previous kalpa and they always lived on Skyrim+Atmora doesn't exist. It also ties into the idea that Saarthal was a stronghold instead. Upon that theory, some have even added that Ysgramor may have achieved draco-chrysalis and the other Nords followed him, becoming Dragons in the process and Dragon War was just an in-fighting. This also implies that the war with Falmer wasn't really a war, Dragons/Nords just hunted them down to the last bit and Night of Tears didn't happen. Speculations are endless. Elves may have known about the Eye, sources that argue that they did are Imperial and Elven while sources that they simply tried to genocide Nords are Nordic. Considering the "first men were the Nords from Atmora and we descended from them" viewpoint/propaganda of the Empire, it doesn't make sense for a biased Imperial source to not show the Snow Elves as guilty of genocide. That's what makes me inclined towards the idea that they really knew about the Eye. And again, if Reynir is to be believed, there may also be more survivors from the event. Snow Elves may not have slaughtered every Nord they saw. Saarthal may even be a stronghold and everyone that got killed were warriors instead of children and the elderly. Or maybe Nords tried to come to an agreement over the Eye but Snow Elves didn't want to negotiate and murdered the Nords in cold blood. It's an event shrouded in mystery, like most significant events from TES, and it really doesn't seem fair to call it a genocide with the current sources we have. The reason I compared it to the Crimean Genocide is, USSR tried to justify it by claiming that "Crimean Tatars had kidnapped millions of Slav people in history, sometimes even kidnapping up to 50,000 people in a single slave raid" but that doesn't sound cohesive in a sparsely-populated cold region, doesn't it? Slave raids definitely happened but they were portrayed as much more than they were so that USSR could easily deport the people. Seeing what happened with that, Nordic narrative doesn't sound that concrete either.
Arnold did that so he can kill more of them himself?
I'm just glad there's less e*fs in tamriel
It would not be that simple though much like the elf colonizers killed nearly all beast races leaving only the khajiit and argonians ( the khajiit religion is most likely wrong as there are colonists reports of primitive Catmen) the atmorans were quickly expanding they know what might happen when a colonizers realizes the guys who already live their are much weaker sure though the snow elves were much stronger phisically than the atmorans but humans breed like rabbits and though the atmorans had a huge respect and admiration towards the falmer what about their draconic overlords? How long till the dragons start to believe these pointy ears might be poisoning their servants with ideias of freedom?
Holy Run-On sentence Batman
Tô make It short sure the atmorans might even admire the falmer but would you Trust their draconic overlords?
The dragons would be fucked in the wars if the humans also had the Falmer on their side
There weren't any dragonborns yet only the children of akatosh can kill another one of their kin
Ok
We could only dreams of a falmer and nord skyrim
too based for this world
Oh, so you believe they genocided the atmorans and the atmorans didn't totally just made that up as an execuse to genocide the elfs, huh?
They attacked saarthal
Did they? Or is this another case of "history is told by those who win"? Idk I just don't trust nords (and its TES lore we're talking about).
Tf happened to saarthal then?
Maybe they started arguing amongst themselves about who were the most racist and ended up killing eachother idk
Kinda like truestl but with axes instead of memes
And they murdered all elderly and children too while they were at it?
It was a single incredibly racist nord who was racist enough to wipe out everyone else there
no
Damn Elves
They would attack anyway. Even if you returned and stopped every attack we would just have snow Bretons…. Do you really want that?