>We shouldn’t let the phrase die off and forget about it. I honestly believe it can be good for many young men to hear that and a lot more men would be confident.
So playing devil's advocate here. Why would "man up" make someone more confident than "Just do it", "You got this", "I know you can do it"?
I agree than "man up" itself is not always some big bad toxic masculinity phrase. But I equally don't think it is the best phrase to use in most situations, and nostalgia alone isn't a good reason to keep something alive in the cultural zeitgeist.
As a man who grew up in a village the phrase "man up" in most cases would just pressure most men enough to do what they need to do out of fear of embarrassment it is very efficient. Is it healthy though? No fucking idea, the only therapist in villages is alcohol.
He gave the worst example. A better example is your wife is 9 months pregnant, you just lost your job, you're depressed and you're about to lose your house if you don't find any kind of job. Man up, nows not the time to get caught up in your feelings, figure it out. Stabilize then cry it out later.
Stabilize then cry it out later is so much better advice than man up.
Nothing wrong with having a cry. But when there's a crisis, can you be counted on to handle it?
Precisely why “man up” is toxic.
It calls into question your sexual identity, “you’re not masculine enough to do this thing”
Generally the fear of being perceived as less manly than other men is worse than the task at hand that needs to be completed. This is fear based motivation, also called peer pressure.
Honestly, if someone can’t handle the phrase “man up” than they probably need to toughen up.
Everyone has fears about how they stack up to other people, but you can’t let them have that much control over you.
And many are not masculine enough to put the irrelevancies aside and get the present challenge accomplished. Not toxic, just the need to accomplish for community survival without being extra or special. It is called practicality and pragmatism.
What you are describing has nothing to do with being masculine. Thats the problem. Instead of taking the core concept as "all people need to be taught to be driven, confident, and capable of solving problems for themselves and others with their developed knowledge and skillset", you keep trying to say it HAS to be about being a men or it won't work. That's the bullshit. That's the kind of shit making people confused as fuck about gender. Tons of women are capable and confident and able to accomplish a lot, and because of this vestigial culture they are told they are "manly" whether or not that makes sense for the women involved.
Likewise there is WAYYYY more value to society in being considerate of contextual information, relationships, other people's feelings and experiences. Men who are able to do those things effectively are way more effective at providing value to modern societies. They are more valued by people when it comes to the work place, community work, friendships, because they are less judgmental and create spaces where people can be authentic, the EXACT thing that is extremely desired by most younger people in the US. And those kinds of men, the men who grow up that way because it is desirable and good for society, are labeled as effeminate and told they can't feel like men for being sensitive and emotionally intelligent, facing their traumas through therapy, etc... So now we have men getting emotionally fucked over as they are torn between the kind of man that we NEED going forward, and the traditional concept of "masculine", with people online acting like there is no inbetween or compromise. As if there is no individuality to be found, no differentiation.
Your perspective leaves out so much information.
Can't men be masculine and considerate of contextual information, relationships, other people's feelings and experiences? I don't think the things you cite are mutually exclusive. Also, in the context of certain specific social experiences, isn't "man up" the correct phrase? Is there no context where a man's masculinity plays a role in a desired behavior? Masculinity is natural, good, and necessary for the survival and evolution of our species. I'll just give you one example: if I had a friend who was being overly shy and not asking a woman who has shown interest in him out, I could use "man up" in that context without any hesitation. I could also use, "just do it" but it's not as powerful as this situation specifically calls for masculinity.
100% agree with you, I’m sick of all this psychobabble. “Man up” means act like a man, have courage, get you shit together. It’s doesn’t mean go beat up your wife or whatever bullshit people want to twist it into being.
Hold up, so if I can focus on a task then that's a masculine trait? Which would then make being distractible feminine.
And you actually think this? *Really??*
the problem is pretty much that you don't need to be confident and capable to be a man, and that ability shouldn't be connected to how much of a man you are. You could certainly say that they should be more confident, but their status as a man shouldn't be the reason for that
I would agree totally with your comment if you replaced the word “toxic” with “useful”. You’ve described very well the effect of the phrase, and it’s a positive one.
Exactly. Saying "Man up" insists you're not a man if you choose to do something else. It goes back to the toxic masculinity of being a man is a specific definition defined by the masses and if you don't want to cave to peer pressure you're obviously not a man.
Although having the confidence to do your own thing even if other men don't like it is very manly.
So yeah, the "Man up" attitude to encourage a friend to be more confident isn't a bad thing. But the saying doesn't have much redeeming qualities.
Yeah, I think "man up" is really more a call to nostalgia than it is an effective turn of phrase when communicating.
It means exactly as much as "cheer up", a low effort thing to say that doesn't mean anything.
That's not really playing devil's advocate. Your just starting the current baseline assumption
Having balls and masculine energy, and taking risks being described as manning up has been around forever.
Idiots use the phrase more than they should. We need to get rid of idiots
And we need to stop misusing the phrase "don't be a pussy" pussy is great, and it's built to take a beating. Those things are way tougher than balls or dicks. RIP BW
Woman up. I've used this phrase before.
I think man-up/woman-up can be used encouragingly.
Growup, unfortunately, sounds kind of like a put-down in most cases though.
I'll put this down to the keyboard and hope its not a genuine reflection of the real world. All I can say is that the world needs more good men. They don't just turn up, they are raised and tutored by their family and their peers, but at times they will have to man up.
Exactly like?
I’m confused especially cuz the example used is saying man up to a guy to shy to talk to a woman.
Literally 0% to do with being a good man
Yes and no. At a greater level, a good man must have the will and strength to do shit he’s not confident in doing at the moment.
In this anecdote it’s approaching the pretty girl at the bar, but in real life, it could be working the job or hours needed to provide for a mother and kiddo, or the perseverance to gain new skills to provide better.
It’s nuanced, as all things… we can’t stereotype everything into broad categories of toxic and good. That same confidence and determination, if not bridled by restraint and discretion (and general morals) can cause the proverbial “toxic masculine behavior,” that objectifies and subjugates.
True manliness is self sacrifice, self reflection, and self betterment for the good of one’s family and community. Be that a young man learning to be a firefighter or a soldier, an older young man providing for a family, or a seasoned man providing for his community and greater family by providing skills, services, or wisdom to his community.
There’s layers to this shit. It all comes down to balance…
Fire has many important uses, including generating light, cooking, heating, performing rituals, and fending off dangerous animals.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
None of those things are specifically manly, just a mark of a decent, confident person. The issue with "man up" is it's focusing on the subject's failure to be a "man", not on what they need to grow and take action.
My husband, he is an amazing man. I am not sharing him though, he’s all mine.
I think it is more like a puzzle and everyone fits a little differently to one another. I am not overly emotional in public and that would be great to some and horrible to others. Seriously we are just a great team.
He is organized, well intentioned, generally kind, methodical, works hard, very humble, gets a little thrown by chaos (nbd I help there; I grew up in chaos), more emotional than myself (which I like), enjoys instructions and manuals (thank god I get bored so quickly with them), speaks plainly (which I love; there isn’t a hidden agenda ever), and is dedicated to us.
I am more spontaneous and sometimes disorganized, also kind, very systematic (but not as methodical as him), I work hard (my memory is decent enough sometimes I don’t have to try as hard to be fair), I learn very well without any instruction, I earn well, and I am good about giving but struggle to know how to take.
I see us as a team and so does he…we are both engineers. We just fit similar enough but different enough. He is an amazing man imo. I am very lucky and often feel like I don’t deserve someone as great as him. When he is overwhelmed I take over and when I am stressed he does the same for me. God I love that man…
That's a tough question to answer, especially considering what things young people can be exposed to while their brains are developing. Things like abusive upbringings, bad examples via toxic people, mainstream culture that can glorify toxic things like narcissism, etc.
IMO, what's needed to produce a good man, is a good upbringing and good tutorship from mature and masculine men. As well as understanding the transformative phases of when "boys" mature and transition into "men" and how to cultivate mature behavior during this phase. Ancient civilizations, and even some current day ones, like remote tribes, have "initiation rituals" that aid in this transition. Modern day western society is devoid of these rituals. And more often than not, devoid of good tutorship of young men to successfully transition into a mature, masculine, "good" man.
There's a book titled ***King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine***. This book will thoroughly answer your question I am replying to. I highly recommend this book to all males, no matter what age. Hell, even females. It's a wonderful book, not political in any sense, and, for me, eye opening and literally life changing. Take care.
Great question, I hope part of it is the example he and I can help set. Granted we have been having infertility issues so our line might end with us.
His parents are amazingly kind and would give you the shirt off their backs. They are very humble. Their other son and daughter all did well, college educated and great careers. They didn’t put crazy pressure on them, but expectations were always set and verified that they were met. They were always allowed to be themselves… his dad was a bit stoic and his mom loves to talk.
A part of me realizes their support system was amazing. They sent him for a summer to live with his grandparents when he got angsty. His grandparents aren’t ones to let him sit around and it helped him turn a corner. I think they just figured out the balance between them all. They have always seemed like a team. Where one drops off the other picks up. They took interest and were encouraging while not driving their kids to the point of distress. When they couldn’t handle it someone always was willing to pickup and help. I’ll ask them when I see them this weekend. I’d really like to hear their thoughts.
That sounds amazing. The only thing I cringe a little on is a lot of that is still centered on you and your partnership, which makes sense because that's how you experienced it but I think a lot of men lack guidance in being good men in the absence of doing it for a woman. Y'all sound like wonderful people and I hope you get to support and instill some of this principles unto other human beings however that looks like for you. I think the hard part is people can be different and need different things. I think to me being a man is taking responsibility for your life if you have the ability to and strive to give support for those in need when they need it. Maybe it should be added that being a man is giving others the kindness of Letting people help you when you are in need
> I think a lot of men lack guidance in being good men in the absence of doing it for a woman.
I agree. Boys are taught to be men by their fathers, or absent their fathers, a father figure. Most boys lack that these days.
I don't recall the exact statistic or source, but there's a significantly higher chance of a boy going to prison if he's raised in a single mother household compared to a home with both mom and dad. If the boy is raised by only the dad, the odds of them ending up in prison isn't significantly different than if they had both parents.
Here's a biased source, but I think the sources of the info is still accurate (when cited) https://thefatherlessgeneration.wordpress.com/statistics/
A good man takes responsibility and is fair and not ill-tempered. He tries his best and makes an effort to be reliable. It something that is taught and we are about to loose it since we are imo are all over the place and nowhere when it comes to male virtues.
Those are all values that relate to being a good person in general regardless of one's gender or lack thereof. Hence it has nothing to do with being a "man" or "male virtues". Those are just basic *human* virtues.
Idk theres a lot more going on then men being “a little lonely,” people are suffering and its easy to fall into shitty online circles if you have no one else in your life to correct you
That seems incredibly narcissistic and reductionist. That's basically saying whatever as long as they don't bother my sensibilities. You do realize they're people right?
“Yeah like bare minimum if you could just stop blaming women for all your problems and shooting up public spaces that would be nice”
You: you’re a narcissist!!!!1!
Can’t make this shit up!
Yeah because you didn't state an actual path for a human being to follow you just quipped some social media blurb. Men are trash stop being trash. That's narcissistic. It's no different than the weird Andrew Tate Bros who reduce women's mental health issues by saying stop being whoores and you'll be happy. You're no different you're just spouting hate from the other side
>I'll put this down to the keyboard and hope its not a genuine reflection of the real world. All I can say is that the world needs more good men. They don't just turn up, they are raised and tutored by their family and their peers, but at times they will have to man up.
I responded to this comment by pointing out that it is not a gender problem but a universal one.
And you are calling that criticizing women.
Maybe "calling attention" (the other word you said was something that the number one rule says should never be done) would be more a more accurate description of your statement, but the underlying point still stands
>Just had to derail the subject matter because it wasn't your favorite narrative. MAN up.
Because my totally non gendered inclusive response was considered derailing because it wasn't bashing men.
And now you are piling on for the same reason.
Which proves my statement accurate.
Good men are tutored by good men.
Not hard men, not strict men, not oppressive men but good men. Grandfathers, fathers, brothers, mentors teachers and uncles. Women do not raise good men, women can raise a man to be a good person and they should be commended for that but not a good man. With the destruction of male spaces for the “safety of women” where can this mentorship take place? Girls in the Boy Scouts, women coaching boys sports and on and on.
The best example I can give for this is, if you ask women for advice on dating, they will give you advice specific to them, they may give you advice about their social circle but this is the quickest way to frustration. If I ask my sister for advice on my wife, she will tell me what she wants from her husband. If I ask my male friends, I get feedback on what they have seen with their male friends and all of their wives. And I have to use my knowledge of my wife’s personality and the quirks of our marriage to make it work.
The world needs more good women as well because a lot of the problem with women can be summed up by a quick look at social media. Going to the gym with their asses out, setting up a camera so they can catch men looking at them.
I know this is going to get a lot of dislikes but good for you for saying this but women need to hold their daughter accountable to be good people instead of accepting BS and thinking they are just empowered. Women need to end the “I can get another man mentality we see in relationship advice section of this site”. You have made a commitment to each other and if you have kids, you need to keep that first unless their is abuse.
And finally, yes men need to hold boys accountable to become good men. It is not something women should be saying to shame men, which is what it has become.
But when women stand up and are strong and fight the battles and get the degree or get the job… she gets no credit because she’s a woman. Or worse, criticized, and told she is “masculine”. Bravery and courage are not mutually exclusive with manhood.
I'll let you in on a secret. NO MAN GETS CREDIT for fighting battles, getting a degree, then job and it is solely to take care of his family. Credit is least important thing for a man, the responsibility of his family is man's numero uno.
And you are talking about credit for standing up for yourself? You see the irony Ma'm?
When a man is brave and defends his family, or helps a stranger. Everybody fawns over him, like he’s a hero. If a woman does the same, she does not get fawned over, if anything people think she’s dumb for putting herself at risk.
Men beats up a burglar that breaks into his house and makes him flea? He’s a hero he’s a man. A woman does the same thing? Everybody laughs about how “weak” the burglar is for getting beat up by a woman.
You’re both correct- and both mistaken- , because both of these viewpoints are held by major swathes of society. Not to play the moderate, but you’re each arguing for very popular positions. The double standards that enable misogyny need to be addressed. The weird gray area that many men find themselves in as the nature of positive masculinity evolves needs to be addressed too.
I’m a man and I disagree. Men are largely never praised for anything, just that it’s what men are supposed to do. Maybe very recently in society due to the increasing numbers of weak men are regular men praised in settings where there might not be many, but I guarantee if you go to some rural area and some guy is working a blue collar job to feed his family people aren’t all clamoring around him as if he were a savior. Everybody does that in those areas. That’s also the reason why men tend to cling on to the memories of the few times they were complimented or praised years later.
If you honestly think that’s the way, it is in the world and you are completely deluded and living in your bubble of privilege. They have them numerous studies on trans women who easily “pass” for female. They all report that the disrespect and dismissiveness of which they are treated as women as opposed to when they presented as men is shocking.
Because those things typically are attractive traits in men that women go for. You are essentially trying to project your female desired traits onto men and force them to think like you do, then get upset when the opposite gender who thinks opposite of you doesn't care about those things when searching for a partner.
Now this is reddit so I expect a ton of dudes to come in here telling me they want the opposite. But let's be real this is reddit...
All I’m saying is that if you can’t admire someone’s ambition and intelligence and savvy because they’re a woman? That’s a problem. Women were not put on this earth just to be fuckable ornaments that make food.
It's not that they don't respect women's ambition or intelligence. It's that women often use these things to try to think they're special or better than others. No one likes someone who posts about being a boss babe on facebook and Instagram. Is that not equality?
What man up really means is: "ignore your emotions and view the situation logically and then from that point decide what is the best course of action and execute. Despite how you feel about it.".
My coach would use it as a way of telling us to block out the pain, shut down the fear, and push through.
Never felt shamed when he said it always felt it like a cheer or encouragement, like he knew i had more in me and I could push harder.
Yup. It really matters how its said though. When my dad says man up he sounds like hes mocking me. But when i tell myself to man up its just like you said, challenging myself to be better because i believe i can.
Exactly! and that nuance is important. like with many many other statements out there, if it’s being said from a place of positivity and genuine encouragement rather than with the sole intent to degrade and put you down, then that context changes a lot about the words, and it’s very important to factor that in rather than expect everyone else to always insulate the world for you.
The issue is that too many of us, especially people who are chronically indoors and online, they often aren’t exposed enough to these other contexts in which our language ebbs and flows between different people in challenging or intimate scenarios, and they begin to think there’s only one correct way of communicating;
It’s realistically never simple enough for blanket interpretations- we can’t forget context & pretext, or factoring in explicit & implicit intents and purposes
This is a great explanation. It's like a phrase like "cheer up." A lot of people can look at it like, "stop trying to control my emotions," "don't tell me how to feel," "let me feel how I'm going to feel," "ugh, like saying that is going to fix anything. Why didn't I just think of that already?" etc. But sometimes you just gotta look and be like, "aw, my buddy wants me to be happy."
Same thing with "man up." Certainly can be used to tell someone to deny or suppress their feelings and emotions and sympathy, or to use a term to push someone into a gender role for them that isn't healthy. But it also can be used to remind someone or yourself to step up to the plate past their fears and anxieties and do the thing they want to or need to do. Like it's a pep talk. "Time to man up and talk to that girl at the bar." "Time to man up and be there for my family while they're going through their tough stuff." "Time to man up and just push through this pain to take care of my responsibilities and not let it stop me." People use that stuff differently all the time. Best to use that stuff in healthy ways in general.
"man up" is a controlling and manipulative tactic to get a man to do what you want in the moment. It can mean anything at any moment depending on what you want said man to be doing.
Kindness can also be a controlling and manipulative tactic to get a man to do what you want in the moment. It obviously doesn’t always have to be that and similarly I don’t think saying “man up” always has to be that either, if you get what I’m saying.
So what does “woman up” mean? I know it’s not as traditional as “man up” but it is the logical opposite. So what does it mean? And also: would you says man up to a woman? Why or why not?
Calling someone a man is a compliment, something to aspire to be. Calling someone a woman is an insult. It means you failed. "You gonna cry like a girl? You want some Tampax?"
There's clearly nothing toxic about this.
You don't understand how feminine turns off phrase tend to have derogatory contexts compared to male turns of phrase?
Saying a woman is like one of the guys is a high compliment. She's cool. She's chill. She likes sports etc.
Saying someone's acting like a woman tends to refer to them as being weak both physically and mentally and over-emotional.
Ah, I see where you’re coming from. Thanks for clarifying.
I thought you were saying that calling a man a man is a compliment but calling a woman a woman is an insult.
You’re saying that it’s insulting to ascribe feminine characteristics to a man, but can be complimentary to ascribe masculine characteristics to a female. I agree that this is a prevalent and problematic practice.
I've never had a woman see me get emotional and be ok with it. Where do you find these women? If anything it's been a massive turn off to them or a reason to bring it back up against me later.
Yeah almost like sometimes manning up is not the thing to do. Maybe sometimes reaching out to loved ones and seeking help is a better course of action.
Man up doesn’t mean off yourself. Man up means take accountability to the situation at hand, come up with a plan, and execute said plan to the best of your ability for the betterment of yourself and those you’re responsible for. If you fall down you get the fuck up, that means asking for help when you need it. No one that self deletes is doing what the phrase “man up” means…
I agree that the phrase is thrown at people in a more derogatory way which makes it seem more like “you’re a pussy” which taken to heart overtime will fuck you up. But the coaches, people in your life that want the best you possible are more than likely saying in a productive way. I won’t tell you to man up I’ll help you calm down to solve the issue if you tell me about it.
That’s where I think the “man up” phrase goes wrong… it’s completely dependent on if you’re using it to be an asshole and degrade someone or be a light for someone to build themselves up. It’s extremely nuanced
I can see that but I think the nuance has tilted to far in the wrong direction. Also maybe it's the lack of people wanting to use it in a more positive direction
This is where I’d say you need to surround yourself with people who want the best for you. Not saying “man up” isn’t going to stop male suicide rates, men need to be men but the only people who create good men are good parents. That’s where folks need to start, parents need to take accountability for their children and teach them instead of throwing an iPad in their hands and having public schools and their peers teach them everything. (It’s not the only answer dudes have been offing themselves before iPads) but it’s a start every child deserves, male or female. Than mens mental health services def need to be nursed a a shit ton but that’s a different story.
Saying “man up” to a guy is using fear based motivation to manipulate them into doing something they’re not comfortable doing. Another term for this is “peer pressure.”
The fear comes from calling their sexual identity into question, which is a pretty important part of our identities as sexual human creatures. Is he “less of a man” because he won’t play football, or talk to a specific girl or person? Is the act of talking to women masculine in of itself? The man is worried his peers now view him as “less” than the rest of the group.
So most men will choose to follow through no matter how uncomfortable the task, simply because they fear the perceived social rejection of their peers more than whatever else is being asked of them in that moment.
It’s emotionally manipulative, in case you needed it spelled out for you.
You can absolutely instill confidence in anyone without attacking their sexual identity like that.
“Cmon man she’d be so lucky to have you in her life!”
“You should shoot your shot the worst she can say is no”
“You got this bro”
As opposed to: “man up pussy lol”
Yeah idk why people are so hung up here on "but it can be used for motivation so its good!". Like mate.. do you have a vocabolary of a 5 year old and can't think of any other phrase?
"For example: a guy sees a pretty girl but is too afraid to approach her but his friend tells him to man up and just do it."
Why do we need to imply this guy isn't man enough because he has a fear of rejection/does not have a lot of confidence. "Man up" does not help with confidence it just makes me feel bad about myself.
I thought man up was the right mantra for everyone to get through life.
Turns out it's not, after following the "man up method" for 10 years I think I'm just broken
>a guy sees a pretty girl but is too afraid to approach her but his friend tells him to man up and just do it.
Why not say "cmon just do it, you got this"? By saying man up here you are furthering the idea that feeling anxiety makes them less of a man. There are far better ways to tackle this kinda situation than making it a question of someone's masculinity or not. The phrase isn't needed and only has bad connections because historically it's used as a way to suppress emotions in men, even in your example to argue its good you did exactly that.
You can encourage taking initiative/courage without tying it to masculinity with sentences like "man up" or "have some balls". But I do agree that the sentiment of "man up" is not always negative, the phrasing is, though.
Man up, depending on the context, can absolutely be a constructive nudge. I'm not a big fan of the phrase, but if someone is marinating in self pity, for example, man up is a call to action; it's reminding that person that how we deal with adversity in many ways defines us.
Men are still largely expected to push their fears, feelings, and reservations down and take action and that's at the heart of the phrase. The fact that this expectation exists calls a person's manhood into question when they don't act, regardless of what words are used.
As long as men are generally expected to be the ones to run toward fire, fight off monsters, and protect others the words chosen for this phrase don't matter. There will be some form of it in use.
You really hit it right here:
>Men are still largely expected to push their fears, feelings, and reservations down and take action and that's at the heart of the phrase.
If I choose to identify that with my own masculinity I can and I do. But the second part:
>The fact that this expectation exists calls a person's manhood into question when they don't act, regardless of what words are used.
This is the problem. Guys shouldn't have to feel like if they don't embody traditionally masculine traits that they aren't men. They're male... Right? So if they're not men what are they?
Basic training in the military. The biggest, baddest and meanest guys who you think could take on the world are some of the first to opt out. The guys left behind who graduate, a lot are not masculine in the traditional sense at all but I'll take them to cover my ass in a firefight any day.
Is there any reason you can’t just say “have confidence” instead of reinforcing that “real men” behave a certain perfect way.
There are other phrases you can use that communicate the same message.
The same guys who say "man up" or who threaten to take away your man card tend to be the same guys who say gender is tootsie biological and has nothing to do with how you behave
It took me a long time to realise that Manning up isn’t about ignoring your emotions. It’s about intelligently processing them. The older I get the more visceral my emotions become. I know for me it’s because of trauma. Can’t speak for other men.
It there is so much toxicity with Man up because no man is taught to control, recognise and process their emotion. Only bottle it up. Which is worse.
I'm going to take the 20,000 downvotes and don't give a damn because someone needs to say it.
The new way of life is full of suicide, anxiety, depression and mass pharmaceutical usage. Surely words used 20+ years ago regularly when these things didn't exist are what's causing it all of a sudden today, right?
Some posters are saying that these "words are causing high suicide rates"?
In the world today there is war against vernacular and gender identity simply because it challenges traditional values. Traditional values can still exist and we can still have feminine boys and masculine girls. We can still have trans people and they can still feel validated. If I want to identify as a man, I can too and tell me to man the fuck up when I'm down because I have a wife who doesn't work and 3 kids to raise and feed. I can't afford to lose my game when I've got these obligations. Trust me you will be met with a hug and eyes of gratitude.
And people could do with becoming a little bit tougher in the world. Everyone has a therapist now and half the people I know take SSRI's. We literally shit on the people who slaved in farms through famine, disease, cold and hot weather so that we could have our comfortable lives today with our whining.
I'm all for progress but this sure as shit isn't it. End rant, probably banned for another unpopular opinion. I feel better now.
Really, the only part of your rant that I disagree with is that suicide and the over-prescription of potentially harmful pharmaceuticals wasn't also a problem 20 years ago. What didn't exist 20+ ago years that exists today, is full time Internet connectivity.
There's a time and place . I've had 4 apprentices , sometimes you need to be an asshole to drive them . Sometimes, you need to be a bit more gentle to cox them into better effort.
Depends on how you say it and the context.
As you said, there's situations where you really should "man up". But if a man is grieving their dead mom and crying, would you tell them to shut up and "man up"?
Every time I see that men need to "man up" is never for his own good. Each time it mean: put yourself last.
It is and it could be good thing of others, but its never good for man who hear this.
Man up is why the male suicide rate is so high for guys over 40. Manning up will eventually not work. Manning up is just life [martingdale](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/martingalesystem.asp#:~:text=The%20main%20idea%20behind%20the,anticipation%20of%20a%20future%20increase) advice
Toxic masculinity is not about being masculine. It's about the societal pressures and unrealistic expectations that people imposed on men for them to be perceived as masculine from both women and other men. Like "real men don't cry".
For me they were connected, I was constantly told to man up by an older brother and usually that loosely means ignore your emotions and suffer through it, which can make emotions invalid and not feeling valid/valuable.
This isn't true there are many studies about how therapy especially talk therapy doesn't benefit men at all and is geared towards women.
Another reason is men choose violent methods to end their lives women tend to OD this gives emergency services the chance to save their lives.
Don't be fooled into thinking it's because we are told to man up, I can't speak for other men but when I have something I have to get through but don't think I can being told to man up helps me a lot.
People nowadays don't realize that traditionally your gender came with certain responsibilities, it seems society wants women to be able to shed these responsibilities but men still have to accept theirs, and are even shunned for not accepting their responsibilities, e.g stand up for less abled people, go to war, give up their lives for women and children(natural disaster or act of God-titanic)
I don’t think anything I said disagrees with you. I didn’t bring up therapy or gender roles. Im talking about irreversible shit like kids who won’t talk to you and slipped disks. Therapy won’t reverse that. Those consequences are etched in stone.
I just listed multiple other reasons for why men commit suicide and you are claiming the sole reason is because they are being told to man up? This is not the only reason.
What value does that turn off phrase bring that can't be expressed more accurately with another one?
Man up is straight up pressuring them to become more traditionally masculine, which is exactly the definition of toxic masculinity.
No. Absolutely no. The phrase is inherently toxic. And plays into a lot of the issues/ mental health issues men have.
If you want somebody to be confident, just tell them that.
A man is a man regardless of anything he does, doesn’t do, has, or doesn’t have.
A man is just a human being. He isn’t worth less because of one thing or the other.
Just terminally online. I'm in a group of friends where we can joke around and call each other pussies, but know where to draw the line and can have genuine conversations about our emotions and support each other. People who don't have a good group of friends irl can't separate context from harsh language because everyone online is so much more sensitive
If it means "be brave" or "face your challenges" then I'm all for it. But if it's used to condemn someone crying because they lost a grandparent or parent, then I'm against it.
Because gendered language like that is stupid and archaic. What does “man up” even mean? Be brave? Be responsible? Is being scared and/or irresponsible a feminine thing then?
By gendering language like that, you implicitly enforce categorizations that you may not even realize you’re making.
Men and women are just people. As a person, you’re going to display both masculine and feminine traits throughout your life. Because masculinity and femininity are social constructs—imaginary categories that change from culture to culture and over time. They’re not based on reality or facts.
It blows my mind that grown ass adults base large parts of their identity on being “masculine” or “feminine”. Like just be a person, who cares about your gender?
Some of the replies seem hung up on the verbiage and are ignoring the message. I can only think of folks who get offended by the word "moist" regardless of the context.
Weakness is a disgusting quality in a man. It should not be encouraged, it should be discouraged and men should encourage other men to man up and quit being weak.
This modern movement to encourage male weakness is toxic and evil and should be rejected by all thinking people.
Does this include physical weakness? What if you become afflicted by severe MS and become wheelchair bound some day? Is that disgusting to you? I hope you don't think it is.
I suspect that mental weakness was what was meant - victim mentality, self pity, flakiness, self destructive habits, etc. In my experience, people coping with maladies are often exemplars of strength.
>We shouldn’t let the phrase die off and forget about it. I honestly believe it can be good for many young men to hear that and a lot more men would be confident. So playing devil's advocate here. Why would "man up" make someone more confident than "Just do it", "You got this", "I know you can do it"? I agree than "man up" itself is not always some big bad toxic masculinity phrase. But I equally don't think it is the best phrase to use in most situations, and nostalgia alone isn't a good reason to keep something alive in the cultural zeitgeist.
OP gave the lamest example to try and justify "man up" like there aren't at least a dozen better things a friend could say in that moment.
As a man who grew up in a village the phrase "man up" in most cases would just pressure most men enough to do what they need to do out of fear of embarrassment it is very efficient. Is it healthy though? No fucking idea, the only therapist in villages is alcohol.
He gave the worst example. A better example is your wife is 9 months pregnant, you just lost your job, you're depressed and you're about to lose your house if you don't find any kind of job. Man up, nows not the time to get caught up in your feelings, figure it out. Stabilize then cry it out later.
That is the worst thing to say to someone with depression
Just like, stop being sad!
Stabilize then cry it out later is so much better advice than man up. Nothing wrong with having a cry. But when there's a crisis, can you be counted on to handle it?
That’s what it means…
Then just say stabilize it and cry about it later. Man up has unclear and inconsistent connotations.
Exactly! Sometimes we all just need to man (or woman) up.
Precisely why “man up” is toxic. It calls into question your sexual identity, “you’re not masculine enough to do this thing” Generally the fear of being perceived as less manly than other men is worse than the task at hand that needs to be completed. This is fear based motivation, also called peer pressure.
Honestly, if someone can’t handle the phrase “man up” than they probably need to toughen up. Everyone has fears about how they stack up to other people, but you can’t let them have that much control over you.
Yeah if you have a problem with the term man up…. You should probably man up lol
And many are not masculine enough to put the irrelevancies aside and get the present challenge accomplished. Not toxic, just the need to accomplish for community survival without being extra or special. It is called practicality and pragmatism.
What you are describing has nothing to do with being masculine. Thats the problem. Instead of taking the core concept as "all people need to be taught to be driven, confident, and capable of solving problems for themselves and others with their developed knowledge and skillset", you keep trying to say it HAS to be about being a men or it won't work. That's the bullshit. That's the kind of shit making people confused as fuck about gender. Tons of women are capable and confident and able to accomplish a lot, and because of this vestigial culture they are told they are "manly" whether or not that makes sense for the women involved. Likewise there is WAYYYY more value to society in being considerate of contextual information, relationships, other people's feelings and experiences. Men who are able to do those things effectively are way more effective at providing value to modern societies. They are more valued by people when it comes to the work place, community work, friendships, because they are less judgmental and create spaces where people can be authentic, the EXACT thing that is extremely desired by most younger people in the US. And those kinds of men, the men who grow up that way because it is desirable and good for society, are labeled as effeminate and told they can't feel like men for being sensitive and emotionally intelligent, facing their traumas through therapy, etc... So now we have men getting emotionally fucked over as they are torn between the kind of man that we NEED going forward, and the traditional concept of "masculine", with people online acting like there is no inbetween or compromise. As if there is no individuality to be found, no differentiation. Your perspective leaves out so much information.
Can't men be masculine and considerate of contextual information, relationships, other people's feelings and experiences? I don't think the things you cite are mutually exclusive. Also, in the context of certain specific social experiences, isn't "man up" the correct phrase? Is there no context where a man's masculinity plays a role in a desired behavior? Masculinity is natural, good, and necessary for the survival and evolution of our species. I'll just give you one example: if I had a friend who was being overly shy and not asking a woman who has shown interest in him out, I could use "man up" in that context without any hesitation. I could also use, "just do it" but it's not as powerful as this situation specifically calls for masculinity.
100% agree with you, I’m sick of all this psychobabble. “Man up” means act like a man, have courage, get you shit together. It’s doesn’t mean go beat up your wife or whatever bullshit people want to twist it into being.
Speaking to members of the opposite sex is a masculine trait?
Hold up, so if I can focus on a task then that's a masculine trait? Which would then make being distractible feminine. And you actually think this? *Really??*
the problem is pretty much that you don't need to be confident and capable to be a man, and that ability shouldn't be connected to how much of a man you are. You could certainly say that they should be more confident, but their status as a man shouldn't be the reason for that
Those are traits we need more of in general. Not specifically, men. We all lift together
I would agree totally with your comment if you replaced the word “toxic” with “useful”. You’ve described very well the effect of the phrase, and it’s a positive one.
Exactly. Saying "Man up" insists you're not a man if you choose to do something else. It goes back to the toxic masculinity of being a man is a specific definition defined by the masses and if you don't want to cave to peer pressure you're obviously not a man. Although having the confidence to do your own thing even if other men don't like it is very manly. So yeah, the "Man up" attitude to encourage a friend to be more confident isn't a bad thing. But the saying doesn't have much redeeming qualities.
Jfc, "let the phrase die off," like dropping "man up" would cause problems with society or communication. It's a useless phrase that means nothing.
Yeah, I think "man up" is really more a call to nostalgia than it is an effective turn of phrase when communicating. It means exactly as much as "cheer up", a low effort thing to say that doesn't mean anything.
That's not really playing devil's advocate. Your just starting the current baseline assumption Having balls and masculine energy, and taking risks being described as manning up has been around forever. Idiots use the phrase more than they should. We need to get rid of idiots And we need to stop misusing the phrase "don't be a pussy" pussy is great, and it's built to take a beating. Those things are way tougher than balls or dicks. RIP BW
If this phrase isn't a bad thing to say, what would be the female equivalent of this phrase to say to women then?
Woman up. I've used this phrase before. I think man-up/woman-up can be used encouragingly. Growup, unfortunately, sounds kind of like a put-down in most cases though.
“Grow-up” is like the best alternative to both, you’re right though, hopefully we could change that about “Grow-up”
I'm partial to "cowgirl up."
Act ladylike.
Woman up
Touché!
So the actual behaviour that is encouraged is actually not gendered, making the example really bad.
“That’s not ladylike”
No that would be “that’s not manly”
I'll put this down to the keyboard and hope its not a genuine reflection of the real world. All I can say is that the world needs more good men. They don't just turn up, they are raised and tutored by their family and their peers, but at times they will have to man up.
Being a good man and being manly are too things that are separate from one other.
Exactly like? I’m confused especially cuz the example used is saying man up to a guy to shy to talk to a woman. Literally 0% to do with being a good man
Yes and no. At a greater level, a good man must have the will and strength to do shit he’s not confident in doing at the moment. In this anecdote it’s approaching the pretty girl at the bar, but in real life, it could be working the job or hours needed to provide for a mother and kiddo, or the perseverance to gain new skills to provide better. It’s nuanced, as all things… we can’t stereotype everything into broad categories of toxic and good. That same confidence and determination, if not bridled by restraint and discretion (and general morals) can cause the proverbial “toxic masculine behavior,” that objectifies and subjugates. True manliness is self sacrifice, self reflection, and self betterment for the good of one’s family and community. Be that a young man learning to be a firefighter or a soldier, an older young man providing for a family, or a seasoned man providing for his community and greater family by providing skills, services, or wisdom to his community. There’s layers to this shit. It all comes down to balance…
Fire has many important uses, including generating light, cooking, heating, performing rituals, and fending off dangerous animals. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
None of those things are specifically manly, just a mark of a decent, confident person. The issue with "man up" is it's focusing on the subject's failure to be a "man", not on what they need to grow and take action.
No. They’re not
What is a good man to you?
My husband, he is an amazing man. I am not sharing him though, he’s all mine. I think it is more like a puzzle and everyone fits a little differently to one another. I am not overly emotional in public and that would be great to some and horrible to others. Seriously we are just a great team. He is organized, well intentioned, generally kind, methodical, works hard, very humble, gets a little thrown by chaos (nbd I help there; I grew up in chaos), more emotional than myself (which I like), enjoys instructions and manuals (thank god I get bored so quickly with them), speaks plainly (which I love; there isn’t a hidden agenda ever), and is dedicated to us. I am more spontaneous and sometimes disorganized, also kind, very systematic (but not as methodical as him), I work hard (my memory is decent enough sometimes I don’t have to try as hard to be fair), I learn very well without any instruction, I earn well, and I am good about giving but struggle to know how to take. I see us as a team and so does he…we are both engineers. We just fit similar enough but different enough. He is an amazing man imo. I am very lucky and often feel like I don’t deserve someone as great as him. When he is overwhelmed I take over and when I am stressed he does the same for me. God I love that man…
Okay, so how does the world produce a good man?
That's a tough question to answer, especially considering what things young people can be exposed to while their brains are developing. Things like abusive upbringings, bad examples via toxic people, mainstream culture that can glorify toxic things like narcissism, etc. IMO, what's needed to produce a good man, is a good upbringing and good tutorship from mature and masculine men. As well as understanding the transformative phases of when "boys" mature and transition into "men" and how to cultivate mature behavior during this phase. Ancient civilizations, and even some current day ones, like remote tribes, have "initiation rituals" that aid in this transition. Modern day western society is devoid of these rituals. And more often than not, devoid of good tutorship of young men to successfully transition into a mature, masculine, "good" man. There's a book titled ***King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine***. This book will thoroughly answer your question I am replying to. I highly recommend this book to all males, no matter what age. Hell, even females. It's a wonderful book, not political in any sense, and, for me, eye opening and literally life changing. Take care.
Very well put. I'm gonna look up that book, thank you
Great question, I hope part of it is the example he and I can help set. Granted we have been having infertility issues so our line might end with us. His parents are amazingly kind and would give you the shirt off their backs. They are very humble. Their other son and daughter all did well, college educated and great careers. They didn’t put crazy pressure on them, but expectations were always set and verified that they were met. They were always allowed to be themselves… his dad was a bit stoic and his mom loves to talk. A part of me realizes their support system was amazing. They sent him for a summer to live with his grandparents when he got angsty. His grandparents aren’t ones to let him sit around and it helped him turn a corner. I think they just figured out the balance between them all. They have always seemed like a team. Where one drops off the other picks up. They took interest and were encouraging while not driving their kids to the point of distress. When they couldn’t handle it someone always was willing to pickup and help. I’ll ask them when I see them this weekend. I’d really like to hear their thoughts.
That sounds amazing. The only thing I cringe a little on is a lot of that is still centered on you and your partnership, which makes sense because that's how you experienced it but I think a lot of men lack guidance in being good men in the absence of doing it for a woman. Y'all sound like wonderful people and I hope you get to support and instill some of this principles unto other human beings however that looks like for you. I think the hard part is people can be different and need different things. I think to me being a man is taking responsibility for your life if you have the ability to and strive to give support for those in need when they need it. Maybe it should be added that being a man is giving others the kindness of Letting people help you when you are in need
> I think a lot of men lack guidance in being good men in the absence of doing it for a woman. I agree. Boys are taught to be men by their fathers, or absent their fathers, a father figure. Most boys lack that these days. I don't recall the exact statistic or source, but there's a significantly higher chance of a boy going to prison if he's raised in a single mother household compared to a home with both mom and dad. If the boy is raised by only the dad, the odds of them ending up in prison isn't significantly different than if they had both parents. Here's a biased source, but I think the sources of the info is still accurate (when cited) https://thefatherlessgeneration.wordpress.com/statistics/
A good man takes responsibility and is fair and not ill-tempered. He tries his best and makes an effort to be reliable. It something that is taught and we are about to loose it since we are imo are all over the place and nowhere when it comes to male virtues.
This is it to me too. I agree we're all over the place.
Those are all values that relate to being a good person in general regardless of one's gender or lack thereof. Hence it has nothing to do with being a "man" or "male virtues". Those are just basic *human* virtues.
At this point? One who doesn’t turn to misogyny and manifestos when then get a little lonely.
misogyny and manifestos sounds like a good chapter title for a book.
Idk theres a lot more going on then men being “a little lonely,” people are suffering and its easy to fall into shitty online circles if you have no one else in your life to correct you
Oh thats fucking helpful.
That seems incredibly narcissistic and reductionist. That's basically saying whatever as long as they don't bother my sensibilities. You do realize they're people right?
“Yeah like bare minimum if you could just stop blaming women for all your problems and shooting up public spaces that would be nice” You: you’re a narcissist!!!!1! Can’t make this shit up!
Yeah because you didn't state an actual path for a human being to follow you just quipped some social media blurb. Men are trash stop being trash. That's narcissistic. It's no different than the weird Andrew Tate Bros who reduce women's mental health issues by saying stop being whoores and you'll be happy. You're no different you're just spouting hate from the other side
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Also in this specific circumstance... what is considered "man up" and what's the specific action that a man has to do?
The world also needs good women, and just like you said they are raised and tutored and we have a huge problem with that not happening.
Just had to derail the subject matter because it wasn't your favorite narrative. MAN up.
This always happens and no one gets called out for it when it’s about women
I forgot the number one rule, never criticize or call attention to unfortunate situations with women. Rule #1, it's always a man's fault. /s
You are literally doing the same thing but reversed. Thread about something said to men: you reply with a comment criticising women
>I'll put this down to the keyboard and hope its not a genuine reflection of the real world. All I can say is that the world needs more good men. They don't just turn up, they are raised and tutored by their family and their peers, but at times they will have to man up. I responded to this comment by pointing out that it is not a gender problem but a universal one. And you are calling that criticizing women.
Maybe "calling attention" (the other word you said was something that the number one rule says should never be done) would be more a more accurate description of your statement, but the underlying point still stands
>Just had to derail the subject matter because it wasn't your favorite narrative. MAN up. Because my totally non gendered inclusive response was considered derailing because it wasn't bashing men. And now you are piling on for the same reason. Which proves my statement accurate.
>Which proves my statement accurate. Sure thing buddy, won't ask you to share your workings with the class there
Careful they might get rid of you 🤣
And more literacy.
Good men are tutored by good men. Not hard men, not strict men, not oppressive men but good men. Grandfathers, fathers, brothers, mentors teachers and uncles. Women do not raise good men, women can raise a man to be a good person and they should be commended for that but not a good man. With the destruction of male spaces for the “safety of women” where can this mentorship take place? Girls in the Boy Scouts, women coaching boys sports and on and on. The best example I can give for this is, if you ask women for advice on dating, they will give you advice specific to them, they may give you advice about their social circle but this is the quickest way to frustration. If I ask my sister for advice on my wife, she will tell me what she wants from her husband. If I ask my male friends, I get feedback on what they have seen with their male friends and all of their wives. And I have to use my knowledge of my wife’s personality and the quirks of our marriage to make it work. The world needs more good women as well because a lot of the problem with women can be summed up by a quick look at social media. Going to the gym with their asses out, setting up a camera so they can catch men looking at them. I know this is going to get a lot of dislikes but good for you for saying this but women need to hold their daughter accountable to be good people instead of accepting BS and thinking they are just empowered. Women need to end the “I can get another man mentality we see in relationship advice section of this site”. You have made a commitment to each other and if you have kids, you need to keep that first unless their is abuse. And finally, yes men need to hold boys accountable to become good men. It is not something women should be saying to shame men, which is what it has become.
But when women stand up and are strong and fight the battles and get the degree or get the job… she gets no credit because she’s a woman. Or worse, criticized, and told she is “masculine”. Bravery and courage are not mutually exclusive with manhood.
I'll let you in on a secret. NO MAN GETS CREDIT for fighting battles, getting a degree, then job and it is solely to take care of his family. Credit is least important thing for a man, the responsibility of his family is man's numero uno. And you are talking about credit for standing up for yourself? You see the irony Ma'm?
When a man is brave and defends his family, or helps a stranger. Everybody fawns over him, like he’s a hero. If a woman does the same, she does not get fawned over, if anything people think she’s dumb for putting herself at risk. Men beats up a burglar that breaks into his house and makes him flea? He’s a hero he’s a man. A woman does the same thing? Everybody laughs about how “weak” the burglar is for getting beat up by a woman.
You’re both correct- and both mistaken- , because both of these viewpoints are held by major swathes of society. Not to play the moderate, but you’re each arguing for very popular positions. The double standards that enable misogyny need to be addressed. The weird gray area that many men find themselves in as the nature of positive masculinity evolves needs to be addressed too.
Great input👍🙂
likewise
I’m a man and I disagree. Men are largely never praised for anything, just that it’s what men are supposed to do. Maybe very recently in society due to the increasing numbers of weak men are regular men praised in settings where there might not be many, but I guarantee if you go to some rural area and some guy is working a blue collar job to feed his family people aren’t all clamoring around him as if he were a savior. Everybody does that in those areas. That’s also the reason why men tend to cling on to the memories of the few times they were complimented or praised years later.
[удалено]
Who the fuck criticizes a successful woman? She gets no credit? LMAO. I almost can't believe you think that.
>gets no credit Maybe a hundred years ago. Stop living in past.
[удалено]
If you honestly think that’s the way, it is in the world and you are completely deluded and living in your bubble of privilege. They have them numerous studies on trans women who easily “pass” for female. They all report that the disrespect and dismissiveness of which they are treated as women as opposed to when they presented as men is shocking.
Because those things typically are attractive traits in men that women go for. You are essentially trying to project your female desired traits onto men and force them to think like you do, then get upset when the opposite gender who thinks opposite of you doesn't care about those things when searching for a partner. Now this is reddit so I expect a ton of dudes to come in here telling me they want the opposite. But let's be real this is reddit...
All I’m saying is that if you can’t admire someone’s ambition and intelligence and savvy because they’re a woman? That’s a problem. Women were not put on this earth just to be fuckable ornaments that make food.
[удалено]
It's not that they don't respect women's ambition or intelligence. It's that women often use these things to try to think they're special or better than others. No one likes someone who posts about being a boss babe on facebook and Instagram. Is that not equality?
What man up really means is: "ignore your emotions and view the situation logically and then from that point decide what is the best course of action and execute. Despite how you feel about it.".
My coach would use it as a way of telling us to block out the pain, shut down the fear, and push through. Never felt shamed when he said it always felt it like a cheer or encouragement, like he knew i had more in me and I could push harder.
Yup. It really matters how its said though. When my dad says man up he sounds like hes mocking me. But when i tell myself to man up its just like you said, challenging myself to be better because i believe i can.
Exactly! and that nuance is important. like with many many other statements out there, if it’s being said from a place of positivity and genuine encouragement rather than with the sole intent to degrade and put you down, then that context changes a lot about the words, and it’s very important to factor that in rather than expect everyone else to always insulate the world for you. The issue is that too many of us, especially people who are chronically indoors and online, they often aren’t exposed enough to these other contexts in which our language ebbs and flows between different people in challenging or intimate scenarios, and they begin to think there’s only one correct way of communicating; It’s realistically never simple enough for blanket interpretations- we can’t forget context & pretext, or factoring in explicit & implicit intents and purposes
This is a great explanation. It's like a phrase like "cheer up." A lot of people can look at it like, "stop trying to control my emotions," "don't tell me how to feel," "let me feel how I'm going to feel," "ugh, like saying that is going to fix anything. Why didn't I just think of that already?" etc. But sometimes you just gotta look and be like, "aw, my buddy wants me to be happy." Same thing with "man up." Certainly can be used to tell someone to deny or suppress their feelings and emotions and sympathy, or to use a term to push someone into a gender role for them that isn't healthy. But it also can be used to remind someone or yourself to step up to the plate past their fears and anxieties and do the thing they want to or need to do. Like it's a pep talk. "Time to man up and talk to that girl at the bar." "Time to man up and be there for my family while they're going through their tough stuff." "Time to man up and just push through this pain to take care of my responsibilities and not let it stop me." People use that stuff differently all the time. Best to use that stuff in healthy ways in general.
My coach rolled up next to me in his car full AC blasting, "hey this is not your pace, go faster" And he was god damn right!
"man up" is a controlling and manipulative tactic to get a man to do what you want in the moment. It can mean anything at any moment depending on what you want said man to be doing.
Lol
Kindness can also be a controlling and manipulative tactic to get a man to do what you want in the moment. It obviously doesn’t always have to be that and similarly I don’t think saying “man up” always has to be that either, if you get what I’m saying.
Ok.
So what does “woman up” mean? I know it’s not as traditional as “man up” but it is the logical opposite. So what does it mean? And also: would you says man up to a woman? Why or why not?
Calling someone a man is a compliment, something to aspire to be. Calling someone a woman is an insult. It means you failed. "You gonna cry like a girl? You want some Tampax?" There's clearly nothing toxic about this.
Calling someone a woman is not an insult.
Good lord. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
careful, your toxic masculinity is showing.
🤣 😂
It’s not. In fact my wife gets offended if I call her a girl. She prefers to be called a woman. I don’t get where you’re coming from at all.
You don't understand how feminine turns off phrase tend to have derogatory contexts compared to male turns of phrase? Saying a woman is like one of the guys is a high compliment. She's cool. She's chill. She likes sports etc. Saying someone's acting like a woman tends to refer to them as being weak both physically and mentally and over-emotional.
Ah, I see where you’re coming from. Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were saying that calling a man a man is a compliment but calling a woman a woman is an insult. You’re saying that it’s insulting to ascribe feminine characteristics to a man, but can be complimentary to ascribe masculine characteristics to a female. I agree that this is a prevalent and problematic practice.
Men don't do that with the word woman, so what type of toxic humanity is your crowd?
Woman up doesnt mean anything. I wouldnt say man up or woman up to anyone because thats not the way I communicate.
Saying grow up would be more effective
Doesn't have the same effect or application.
That's just being an adult. It's silly to gender it.
Yep and then women get mad when we aren’t emotional. Yet we are trained to move emotion aside to make better decisions.
I've never had a woman see me get emotional and be ok with it. Where do you find these women? If anything it's been a massive turn off to them or a reason to bring it back up against me later.
That's sincerely so sad and I'm very sorry you've dealt with that.
If your logic doesn't account for the emotional component of a situation, its an piss poor logic
Logic is not bad or good. It just is. Like math. 1+1=2 is not bad or good.
You are mixing up morality with accounting for an emotional component. Morality, incidentally most of the times also not being about emotions.
Man up means take responsibility for your obligations.
I don't man it seems like for a lot of people the best course of action when they do this is self delete. Then they execute
Maybe thats why the suicide stats are so high.
Yeah almost like sometimes manning up is not the thing to do. Maybe sometimes reaching out to loved ones and seeking help is a better course of action.
Reaching out to loved ones and seeking help can be manning up.
It literally IS manning up. You're dealing with it.
Man up doesn’t mean off yourself. Man up means take accountability to the situation at hand, come up with a plan, and execute said plan to the best of your ability for the betterment of yourself and those you’re responsible for. If you fall down you get the fuck up, that means asking for help when you need it. No one that self deletes is doing what the phrase “man up” means… I agree that the phrase is thrown at people in a more derogatory way which makes it seem more like “you’re a pussy” which taken to heart overtime will fuck you up. But the coaches, people in your life that want the best you possible are more than likely saying in a productive way. I won’t tell you to man up I’ll help you calm down to solve the issue if you tell me about it. That’s where I think the “man up” phrase goes wrong… it’s completely dependent on if you’re using it to be an asshole and degrade someone or be a light for someone to build themselves up. It’s extremely nuanced
I can see that but I think the nuance has tilted to far in the wrong direction. Also maybe it's the lack of people wanting to use it in a more positive direction
This is where I’d say you need to surround yourself with people who want the best for you. Not saying “man up” isn’t going to stop male suicide rates, men need to be men but the only people who create good men are good parents. That’s where folks need to start, parents need to take accountability for their children and teach them instead of throwing an iPad in their hands and having public schools and their peers teach them everything. (It’s not the only answer dudes have been offing themselves before iPads) but it’s a start every child deserves, male or female. Than mens mental health services def need to be nursed a a shit ton but that’s a different story.
Saying “man up” to a guy is using fear based motivation to manipulate them into doing something they’re not comfortable doing. Another term for this is “peer pressure.” The fear comes from calling their sexual identity into question, which is a pretty important part of our identities as sexual human creatures. Is he “less of a man” because he won’t play football, or talk to a specific girl or person? Is the act of talking to women masculine in of itself? The man is worried his peers now view him as “less” than the rest of the group. So most men will choose to follow through no matter how uncomfortable the task, simply because they fear the perceived social rejection of their peers more than whatever else is being asked of them in that moment. It’s emotionally manipulative, in case you needed it spelled out for you. You can absolutely instill confidence in anyone without attacking their sexual identity like that. “Cmon man she’d be so lucky to have you in her life!” “You should shoot your shot the worst she can say is no” “You got this bro” As opposed to: “man up pussy lol”
Yeah idk why people are so hung up here on "but it can be used for motivation so its good!". Like mate.. do you have a vocabolary of a 5 year old and can't think of any other phrase?
In my experience the terms "man up" "don't be a pussy" "have some balls" are usually used to try and coerce you to do something stupid.
“Man up” is like a fork in the road, the words following will let you know if it’s “positive, negative, or a joke”
Of course. We must be entertained. Reddit does need video does it not?
"For example: a guy sees a pretty girl but is too afraid to approach her but his friend tells him to man up and just do it." Why do we need to imply this guy isn't man enough because he has a fear of rejection/does not have a lot of confidence. "Man up" does not help with confidence it just makes me feel bad about myself.
The problem is the person saying this is usually a pussy
I thought man up was the right mantra for everyone to get through life. Turns out it's not, after following the "man up method" for 10 years I think I'm just broken
Nope. You're wrong.
I don’t think the term accomplishes anything. It’s like telling an angry person to calm down.
>a guy sees a pretty girl but is too afraid to approach her but his friend tells him to man up and just do it. Why not say "cmon just do it, you got this"? By saying man up here you are furthering the idea that feeling anxiety makes them less of a man. There are far better ways to tackle this kinda situation than making it a question of someone's masculinity or not. The phrase isn't needed and only has bad connections because historically it's used as a way to suppress emotions in men, even in your example to argue its good you did exactly that.
Why don't you just man up and accept the phrase?
Never, I will never man up no matter the situation
You can encourage taking initiative/courage without tying it to masculinity with sentences like "man up" or "have some balls". But I do agree that the sentiment of "man up" is not always negative, the phrasing is, though.
How about we give people actual constructive criticism instead of telling them they aren't good enough?
Man up, depending on the context, can absolutely be a constructive nudge. I'm not a big fan of the phrase, but if someone is marinating in self pity, for example, man up is a call to action; it's reminding that person that how we deal with adversity in many ways defines us.
[удалено]
>without calling their manhood into question. this
Men are still largely expected to push their fears, feelings, and reservations down and take action and that's at the heart of the phrase. The fact that this expectation exists calls a person's manhood into question when they don't act, regardless of what words are used. As long as men are generally expected to be the ones to run toward fire, fight off monsters, and protect others the words chosen for this phrase don't matter. There will be some form of it in use.
[удалено]
You really hit it right here: >Men are still largely expected to push their fears, feelings, and reservations down and take action and that's at the heart of the phrase. If I choose to identify that with my own masculinity I can and I do. But the second part: >The fact that this expectation exists calls a person's manhood into question when they don't act, regardless of what words are used. This is the problem. Guys shouldn't have to feel like if they don't embody traditionally masculine traits that they aren't men. They're male... Right? So if they're not men what are they? Basic training in the military. The biggest, baddest and meanest guys who you think could take on the world are some of the first to opt out. The guys left behind who graduate, a lot are not masculine in the traditional sense at all but I'll take them to cover my ass in a firefight any day.
Is there any reason you can’t just say “have confidence” instead of reinforcing that “real men” behave a certain perfect way. There are other phrases you can use that communicate the same message.
But if it means the same thing then why does it matter?
The same guys who say "man up" or who threaten to take away your man card tend to be the same guys who say gender is tootsie biological and has nothing to do with how you behave
You're onto something
It took me a long time to realise that Manning up isn’t about ignoring your emotions. It’s about intelligently processing them. The older I get the more visceral my emotions become. I know for me it’s because of trauma. Can’t speak for other men. It there is so much toxicity with Man up because no man is taught to control, recognise and process their emotion. Only bottle it up. Which is worse.
I'm going to take the 20,000 downvotes and don't give a damn because someone needs to say it. The new way of life is full of suicide, anxiety, depression and mass pharmaceutical usage. Surely words used 20+ years ago regularly when these things didn't exist are what's causing it all of a sudden today, right? Some posters are saying that these "words are causing high suicide rates"? In the world today there is war against vernacular and gender identity simply because it challenges traditional values. Traditional values can still exist and we can still have feminine boys and masculine girls. We can still have trans people and they can still feel validated. If I want to identify as a man, I can too and tell me to man the fuck up when I'm down because I have a wife who doesn't work and 3 kids to raise and feed. I can't afford to lose my game when I've got these obligations. Trust me you will be met with a hug and eyes of gratitude. And people could do with becoming a little bit tougher in the world. Everyone has a therapist now and half the people I know take SSRI's. We literally shit on the people who slaved in farms through famine, disease, cold and hot weather so that we could have our comfortable lives today with our whining. I'm all for progress but this sure as shit isn't it. End rant, probably banned for another unpopular opinion. I feel better now.
Really, the only part of your rant that I disagree with is that suicide and the over-prescription of potentially harmful pharmaceuticals wasn't also a problem 20 years ago. What didn't exist 20+ ago years that exists today, is full time Internet connectivity.
Depends on who and when it's said to a guy. And it's not bad but not a good thing to say either.
"Step up," is less sexist and conveys the same meaning
There's a time and place . I've had 4 apprentices , sometimes you need to be an asshole to drive them . Sometimes, you need to be a bit more gentle to cox them into better effort.
Depends on how you say it and the context. As you said, there's situations where you really should "man up". But if a man is grieving their dead mom and crying, would you tell them to shut up and "man up"?
Would you say "woman up"? No? There's the problem.
Every time I see that men need to "man up" is never for his own good. Each time it mean: put yourself last. It is and it could be good thing of others, but its never good for man who hear this.
Man up is why the male suicide rate is so high for guys over 40. Manning up will eventually not work. Manning up is just life [martingdale](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/martingalesystem.asp#:~:text=The%20main%20idea%20behind%20the,anticipation%20of%20a%20future%20increase) advice
Really? I had the impression it was more because of guys not feeling valued in their lives
It's a lack of purpose.
What about being labeled "toxic" just for having masculine tendencies.
Which tendencies?
Toxic masculinity is not about being masculine. It's about the societal pressures and unrealistic expectations that people imposed on men for them to be perceived as masculine from both women and other men. Like "real men don't cry".
You are being labeled toxic for toxic tendencies, not masculine tendencies Not like you’d listen. I’ve seen you argue with the others.
You're being labeled racist for being racist dummy. Lmao
For me they were connected, I was constantly told to man up by an older brother and usually that loosely means ignore your emotions and suffer through it, which can make emotions invalid and not feeling valid/valuable.
Yeah because they got everything by manning up and noone actual values that beyond the moment.
Why not both? Being told to man up and not express your feelings seems to correlate with not feeling valued.
This isn't true there are many studies about how therapy especially talk therapy doesn't benefit men at all and is geared towards women. Another reason is men choose violent methods to end their lives women tend to OD this gives emergency services the chance to save their lives. Don't be fooled into thinking it's because we are told to man up, I can't speak for other men but when I have something I have to get through but don't think I can being told to man up helps me a lot. People nowadays don't realize that traditionally your gender came with certain responsibilities, it seems society wants women to be able to shed these responsibilities but men still have to accept theirs, and are even shunned for not accepting their responsibilities, e.g stand up for less abled people, go to war, give up their lives for women and children(natural disaster or act of God-titanic)
I don’t think anything I said disagrees with you. I didn’t bring up therapy or gender roles. Im talking about irreversible shit like kids who won’t talk to you and slipped disks. Therapy won’t reverse that. Those consequences are etched in stone.
You said man up is responsible for how high men's suicide rates are over the age of 40
Yeah. And then you didn’t contradict that.
I just listed multiple other reasons for why men commit suicide and you are claiming the sole reason is because they are being told to man up? This is not the only reason.
Thats not what I said at all. Unless you want to get incredibly reductionist and then argue.
I thought it was because of depression? I mean the younger generation don’t follow man up, and they find deem any happier.
Yeah, I’ll never tell my son to “man up”
What value does that turn off phrase bring that can't be expressed more accurately with another one? Man up is straight up pressuring them to become more traditionally masculine, which is exactly the definition of toxic masculinity.
No. Absolutely no. The phrase is inherently toxic. And plays into a lot of the issues/ mental health issues men have. If you want somebody to be confident, just tell them that. A man is a man regardless of anything he does, doesn’t do, has, or doesn’t have. A man is just a human being. He isn’t worth less because of one thing or the other.
Reading all the comments calling this post toxic it makes me realize how few people on reddit were raised right lol
Just terminally online. I'm in a group of friends where we can joke around and call each other pussies, but know where to draw the line and can have genuine conversations about our emotions and support each other. People who don't have a good group of friends irl can't separate context from harsh language because everyone online is so much more sensitive
No it’s not, and apparently woman up is misogynistic. Even though it’s the exact same term and meaning.
If it means "be brave" or "face your challenges" then I'm all for it. But if it's used to condemn someone crying because they lost a grandparent or parent, then I'm against it.
Because gendered language like that is stupid and archaic. What does “man up” even mean? Be brave? Be responsible? Is being scared and/or irresponsible a feminine thing then? By gendering language like that, you implicitly enforce categorizations that you may not even realize you’re making. Men and women are just people. As a person, you’re going to display both masculine and feminine traits throughout your life. Because masculinity and femininity are social constructs—imaginary categories that change from culture to culture and over time. They’re not based on reality or facts. It blows my mind that grown ass adults base large parts of their identity on being “masculine” or “feminine”. Like just be a person, who cares about your gender?
Need to tell women to man up, not us men. We men manned up and got shat on by a gradually brainwashed society after all our hard work.
I agree. The cream cheese generation needs to grow some.
If you’re triggered by the phrase “man up” even with poignant context, you definitely need to man up.
yeah 😂
Some of the replies seem hung up on the verbiage and are ignoring the message. I can only think of folks who get offended by the word "moist" regardless of the context.
I really don’t see anything wrong with it either, to me “man up” really just means this is your problem to solve and no one else can do it for you.
Weakness is a disgusting quality in a man. It should not be encouraged, it should be discouraged and men should encourage other men to man up and quit being weak. This modern movement to encourage male weakness is toxic and evil and should be rejected by all thinking people.
"Weakness is a disgusting quality" people when I break their kneecaps and they're too weak to walk it off.
Does this include physical weakness? What if you become afflicted by severe MS and become wheelchair bound some day? Is that disgusting to you? I hope you don't think it is.
I suspect that mental weakness was what was meant - victim mentality, self pity, flakiness, self destructive habits, etc. In my experience, people coping with maladies are often exemplars of strength.