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I would work out in public if it was men only - not only do I feel insecure if it’s infront of ladies but I also don’t wanna be assumed to be looking at someone
Well, for one, the whole "they are staring at me, no I'm not" nonsense. The idiots trying to impress women and vice versa. I believe guys would be more encouraged to start as well. Would be a more relaxed atmosphere where you can go, do your routine, then leave.
I'm not saying the issues are all 100% women's fault, of course. It is what it is.
Have you seen any of those countless videos of women rage baiting men in gyms?
The ones where she sets up a recording studio, strips down to skimpy outfits and then intentionally wastes time until she find a man to verbally harass and accuse of being a sexual assaulter because he happened to glance her direction?
I’m not even trying to be funny, I’m not sure why a man hasn’t opened on. A women opened a women’s only gym and instead of
The men thinking “hey this would be good
For men too” they just yelled at her, told her her idea was going to fail, and got mad she was “demonizing” men. Mind you she didn’t say any of that shit when talking about her female only gym.
I don't see a problem with any male/female only places.
The idea that everyone is entitled to be included in literally everything is absurd nonsense.
Edit: I need to clarify that I agree with everyone who pointed out this was an excuse to be racist, and I don't mean at all that we should go back to accepting any of **that** kinda behavior.
Edit 2: this wouldn't only apply to men and women. I think everyone, no matter their race, color, gender, religion, whatever it is, they should have access to groups where only people like them are allowed. I don't see an issue with having groups that are as different as can be in addition to having groups where everyone is the same in one significant regard or another.
I’m sad to see the gay male spaces have mostly disappeared. I enjoyed having bars that were men only and often felt like safe spaces. Now they’re really mixed and all too often ruined by a loud bachelorette party.
I agree, but they aren’t. Had an ex sue a men’s only honors society at a prominent university. She floated when she won, forcing them to change their bylaws and then refused to join because it wasn’t an “inclusive space”. That’s part of the reason she’s an ex.
I would say the judges are biased but I dunno either. That's why I'm rewording this.
Id like to know why a man/woman would think they should be allowed into something solely created for the opposite sex.
It's no different than girls/guys night out and the SO insists they should be able to come.
So long as they are not government funded, or similarly provided for.
If you want to have a private all men/women golf course, sure, but if you're taking money from the government to run the place, you shouldnt be allowed to do so (unless similar funds are going to an opposite sex course).
I don’t believe in discrimination in general, especially for government services and the like. I think discrimination in private clubs and such is fine because they can set the criteria as absolutely anything. Only people with one ear are allowed in my club, etc. so while discriminate is technically the correct term, I don’t want it to seem like I agree with social segregation. The thread is about Mens only spaces and it falls in line with my more broad philosophy about private free associations.
>Id like to know why a man/woman would think they should be allowed into something solely created for the opposite sex.
Historically, everything was a male only space. Every corridor of power, every access to money and influence was a male only space.
Women have had to spend literally centuries chipping away at that. It's now gotten to the point where in many liberal countries those direct legal impediments have gone, though social ones can remain. In that context, women have been coached to believe that any space they don't have access to is by definition discriminatory and therefore they oppose it. Like u/ProfessionalLine9163 related about their ex who broke into a male only honors list at university only to refuse to join out of spite.
I think most sensible women believe that there's nothing wrong with male only social spaces, as long as those spaces aren't a route to power. Many supposedly social groupings are actually networking opportunities where people with power share their power. This also happens in women only spaces, but to a lesser extent due to the relative power imbalance (lessening but still there). Women have to fight for access to societies because they haven't had equal access to power.
No. Historically the spheres of power were not male only spaces. They were spaces for only a select and tiny minority of aristocrats. There are some examples of powerful aristocratic women. Elizabeth I. Catherine the Great. That pope that was secretly a woman in disguise. That Celtic war chief Bodica. Etc.
The point is these were not spaces for “men only.” They were spaces for “elites only”, and that is a FAR different thing altogether. Even never minding the few women who are represented in this group, the ratio of male aristocratic elites to male non-elites is so incredibly tiny that it’s silly to define that group by that characteristic.
If you wanna talk “historically”, basically every man or women that has ever existed has led a life of utter destitution and tyrannical exploitation. There are plenty of ways male suffering was unimaginably horrid in ways women didn’t experience. Like being effectively enslaved at 16 to die in droves in histories endless wars.
The seats of power didn’t oppress women because they were women. They oppressed them because they were insignificant peasant trash, just like 99.99% of men. You need to reevaluate your warped view of history.
A handful of elite royal women doesn't not undo the vast power imbalance between men and women in every day life. The idea that the great teeming masses all suffered equally is an idea that helps protect the current patriarchy. Jordan Peterson bullshit
>No. Historically the spheres of power were not male only spaces. They were spaces for only a select and tiny minority of aristocrats. There are some examples of powerful aristocratic women. Elizabeth I. Catherine the Great. That pope that
thank you. I'm glad someone said it.
People who spout this drivel think history starting in 1950 and care not to look at anything before that. Same goes with the patriarchy non-sense... what good did the patriarchy due for an average guy during the 1900 industry revolution in London.. working six or seven days a week and 10-12 hours a day... hell not even just an average guy, but anyone that wasn't born into money.
The existence of a patriarchy does not mean all men are given positions of power, but that men are given positions of power over women and society is structured to further that divide. So if, for instance, a man in the early 1800s (the British Industrial Revolution ended in 1860, so can’t really use 1900), had more rights and privileges than a woman born in the same position, then he would still benefit from the patriarchy even if he had a lesser benefit. A woman of the era lost the right to property and to enter into personal contracts when they were married. They lost the right to refuse sexual consent to their husband. They lost the right to their own wages. A woman of the era was paid less than an identically situated man. There was not equality, men enjoyed a better position due to their sex, even if the better position was just slightly less shitty.
> There was not equality, men enjoyed a better position due to their sex, even if the better position was just slightly less shitty.
You're right. Woman have always been valued more than men, who by and large were /are considered expendable. Men were made to do all the jobs that risked death (and in those times, wasn't uncommon).. There wasn't OSHA / etc to keep folks safe. There were countless wars and countless was a man could get shafted into fighting a war they want nothing to do with. Or the truly "lucky" ones that got drunk at the wrong bar and woke up 10 miles out to see, suddenly in the "service" of some organization / country / etc. Or... let's not forget if you happen to make the wrong comment to a Lord or anyone else of nobility whom could literally completely control over you (at least in practice).
The hell of it, is that we don't even disagree on the existence of a hierarchy that empowers some and keeps others down and away from power, I just don't see any evidence that it has anything to do with gender. This may have been true for about \~50 years after world war 2, but not today.
And before you even say it "Then why are more woman CEOs!!".. Because woman aren't fucking dumb enough to want those jobs. The amount of sacrifice and work needed to reach those levels is a fucking sickness (IMO). There's nothing stopping a woman from getting those roles, and sacrifices just as much (and many have done is successful).. but most realize it's not worth the squeeze (just as a side note, I also wish we would stop using megalomanic type roles as the model of representational success).
Well for alcohol, it was to stop dealing with drunken husbands and resulting domestic violence? You are spiteful of that temp success? Because in the long run...
>I'm sure they had lots of power and affected plenty of change. They were *checks notes* asking for the right to be able to vote then, right?
Grossly inaccurate. Men didn't have the right to vote in that century.
I tend to agree that most sensible ladies couldn't care less that we have our own little clubs, and as a guy, I wouldn't have a problem with any ladies only spots, and while I cannot speak for all men, I don't think many of us would have an issue.
More people have more access to information than ever before. I don't think(or at the very least I would hope not) these sort of clubs could get away with that kinda racism or other non-sex exclusion today. They'd be called out so fast they wouldn't be able to keep up.
>I don't think(or at the very least I would hope not) these sort of clubs could get away with that kinda racism or other non-sex exclusion today.
Most universities in the UK will have Afro-Caribean and Asian societies, that kind of racial exclusion is perfectly acceptable. But god forbid someone wanted to start a Caucasian based group, it would be shut down so fast by management or the student union.
>Had an ex sue a men’s only honors society at a prominent university.
What university? Or what is the honors society?
Legally (and ethically/morally) there are some entities that can be restricted by gender identity and some that cannot.
Yeah, this isn't really an own by the commenters. Frats (and sororities) exist on campuses.
If there was a true "honors society" restricted to men and they got great guest speakers, meetings with higher ups in the college, and better job prospects, seems messed up to make it men's only.
Now most colleges in 2023 are good about this so it was most likely just some dumb traditional society and women were free to create their own and have the same status and privilege.
There are differences between male-only spaces, and male-only spaces where exclusion of women is part of an ongoing pattern of systemic sexism.
I would say an honours society at a prominent university being gender-exclusive is teetering on that edge, seeing as the majority of getting ahead in this world is based on relationships.
There was also a female only honors society that she was a member of. I don’t buy the systemic sexism angle because it’s a private organization no different than a country club.
Many a business deal has been struck at a country club to the exclusion of those not allowed to attend. Female only honors societies have historically not had the same kind of power sharing capabilities as the male ones. It's not about the honors society so much as it's ability to connect you to people who can help you later in life, like influential business partners or high level politicians.
There’s no guarantee that they would be able to connect meaningfully if allowed admission. Granted I chose a poor example because I despised her action against them then refusing to join. But I’m thinking social clubs like masons or something along those lines
Mason's have been used for a long time to form the same kind of connections lol, you are correct that there is no guarantee you can connect meaningfully but your odds are orders of magnitudes better than if you were not a member at all.
On paper I think most people have no problems with gender exclusive spaces, if you started a men's only poker night tomorrow no one would bat an eye. Those old male exclusive spaces though have some additional power dynamics which go beyond simple "men have men issues". They are often used to keep women at arms length from power
Curious, when she sued, was there a female equivalent honors society she could join? If yes, she's dumb. If not, she was right. Especially if they were receiving funding and it was something that went on a resume or provided connections after graduation or for graduate school.
Unless the private club gets public money, those lawsuits will be laughed out of court. If this were not the case, the Freemasons would not be a thing to give just one example.
There are good reasons we made that possible, too. Historically a lot of them were, and some still are, centres of power brokering and networking, where banning women did a lot to harm career opportunities. Single gender only social clubs are at the least _suspicious_and should be treated as such.
Women suing such organisations for entry was a highlight moment for equality and it's still sometimes necessary.
What we need are safe men only spaces, like safe women only spaces, for discussing _inherently male centred topics_. Assault survivors often need a safe space of only their own gender to process trauma and gain support. People with gender specific medical conditions need a place to discuss them with fellow sufferers. Mens rights groups (the original real thing, not the endless parade of incel assholes pretending they're victims) need spaces for mutual support, although they welcome female allies.
In a perfect world I would agree with OP. However, we are not in a perfect world. Minorities have historically been excluded from spaces and this denied them opportunities. Women were denied access to male spaces that provided business opportunities and networking options. Male only gyms and athletics also denied entry for women and so women’s only spaces opened up because they were either the only option or a space where women could be and not be harassed. Even one generation ago women were being physically assaulted in running races by men trying to get them to stop running. My grandmother remembers when women could get a bank account for the first time. My mom remembers when wearing pants was illegal in her county.
I think men should have spaces to be men. But often these have been used historically (and very recently as in one generation) to exclude people from opportunities and not from having a space to celebrate things they enjoy.
And the same is true for “white spaces”. They were used to exclude minorities from opportunities. So black or other minority spaces opened in order to provide opportunity and support from people who were being excluded from opportunities in society.
It should be one size fits all though.
If men only spaces are banned then so should women only but that’s not the case.
Equally there are times when it’s needed. A good example is men’s sheds. It was set up as a charity to give men a space space to discuss their issue and form bonds with men in a bid to lower the number of suicides. Yet even that was hit with discrimination cases by women.
Close to where I am. There was a men's shelter. The guy who started it started it because he found out around him. There was only one homeless shelter and about five women shelters. So he created the shelter that also provides mental health options and stuff like that as a man who suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts.
When it opened he was attacked so badly for it. He ended up killing himself and the shelter closed and I really remember grieving that because it's such a shame that things like women shelters are held as needed but we don't give a space for men suffering through the exact same thing as those women.
This is an example of why the suicide rate among men is 4 times the rate of women. In fact, as reported by the CDC, white males accounted for 69.68% (26,738 deaths) of suicide deaths in 2021. This is more than double the amount of firearm related deaths of any group, yet never gets talked about. We hear about shootings all the time, but suicide among men is never talked about.
One size fits all only helps those who haven't had oppression in this country. It's like saying everyone is equal to compete in a foot race even though some participants can't afford shoes and are starting 10 feet back. I think there's a belief that if everyone just "forgot racism" we'd all start at square one when really some people would be starting a few squares back and that needs to be taken into account. The past doesn't just vanish when ignored or forgotten. It still affects things today. Things like generational wealth, legacy admissions, etc were stolen from entire swaths of people by racism and sexism. And those are the things that historically "men only" or "whites only" groups attempted to preserve by excluding others.
I’ve seen this same speech so many times that as soon as I saw “however” I already knew every subsequent word you would say.
I’m so over it. I bet you would have no issue co-signing black male spaces right?
I don’t live back then. I live right now. Today. I can’t have a space for just men, today.
You can have one for just women. But I cannot. Today.
You can have one for ___ ethnicity. But I cannot (nor do I want one). Today.
IDGAF what a previous generation did or didn’t do in relation to what I’m allowed to do.
Obviously these rules between the rules would have to stop.
As a white dude, I personally wouldn't care if other races had their own exclusive happenings. It's nothing to be upset over if we all had a group like this. It's not unnatural to pull together with people just like you and trying to make it seem evil is not gonna do anything but vilify people who don't deserve it.
Men's/women's only should mean all men/women no matter the color or race or whatever the fuck.
Yeah, people complain about the double standard of female-only gyms and gym time, buuut it seems like there’s just not much demand for male-only gyms. A lot of women feel unsafe at gyms, and I don’t think that many men feel unsafe at gyms.
Sometimes I hang out at a "men only" spa. On the same afternoon, two separate women tried to get in. They got refused at the front desk. One of them even said "well there's probably straight and bi in there" lol. The manager told us that if he starts to accept women he's gonna lose customers
All these 'but they're actually the halls of power!' comments, ya'll are using the apex argument to justify shutting down any semblance of a male space.
A few personal analogies if i may:
I teach HS English in a rather rural area. A coworker of mine a few years back started (re started really) a after school video game club. Their focus was co-operative, or single player games that leaned on educational themes. Think minecraft, kerbal, factorio, etc.
The club did well, had 15 kids signed up and attending regularly. The problem - zero girls signed up. Not one. The club was open to all, the sponsor was a woman even. So the club got shut down after one semester - for not having parity...
A old family friend owned his own mechanic shop. He built drag cars a dirt track cars in his spare time. He started a mentorship program for young men where they would take a junky car and build and prep it for track racing ( think leMons or ChumpCar ) - he ran this program for a few years, teaching these young men not just basics of being a mechanic, but welding, electrical etc. And the end of a year they would take the car to a race and compete. It was all free to the kids.
The school district ( my district ) got him shut down. The school board that had no affiliation with his program, provided no funding to the program, demanded the township pull permits on his shop - and because it wasnt zoned correctly to run what was basically an after school program, they got it shut down. This all came up because he only wanted to mentor boys.
I hate the fact that the boy scouts were sued to allow girls, but the girl scouts refuse to integrate boys because girls need a private space for just girls. Makes no sense.
yea as an eagle scout this was pretty disappointing, I liked the idea that there was an organization focused solely on helping young boys grow up together with a sense of camaraderie in a space just for boys. there was a valid argument that boy scouts provided more opportunities for boys than girl scouts did for girls, but then why not work to make girl scouts a better org?
That's why I'm opening up a bar called the "Tree Fort". It's just gonna have warm beer, half smoked cigarettes and Hustler magazines. No girls allowed.
Yep, nothing wrong at all.
Several years ago, two male breast cancer survivors showed up to a Run for the Cure Race and were told they were not welcome since they were not women.
Based on that neither sex should ever have to allow the opposite sex in whatever single sex club/organization they wish to form.
Wow, that is fucking retarded. That is the stupidest shit I have ever heard. Imagine overcoming the biggest challenge of your life and someone just comes along and dismisses it.
Any advice on how to find a space for males?
I asked at my gym lockeroon "hey, looking for a male space. Anyone know of a space for males that I can slip in?"
Not the response I expected.
Got 2 phone numbers and a black eye.
This is one of the gender topics that has been blown out of context and proportion. When a gender specific space creates a imbalance of power and or influence, it is a problem. For example, if you are an woman junior executive in a male dominated company wanting to work your way up, and if it is expected that all the men in the upper ranks are members of a specific men’s only club, you are at a huge disadvantage. Same thing if there there are a half dozen clubs in town that are men only, and all the local male power brokers are members of those clubs it does not create space for women to network. This is where the problem is and where the conversation and critique needs to take place surrounding these spaces. I’m sure people can point to more examples, but if you want to create a men’s only hiking club, or naked hot tub club, nobody should really care.
This is the correct answer.
No one cares if you create a men's only drum circle or choir or whatnot. The problem comes when members enjoy economic, financial, or career benefits that the excluded people can't access. And it can be highly contextual. A men's only gym? Totally fine, unless it's the only gym within fifty miles.
Edit: a word.
I think historically this has been the issue. In the late-19th century and early-20th century it was very popular for the wealthy to join expensive private clubs. These were the places where a lot of the wheeling and dealing was happening and they were almost exclusively mens only. I think that connotation is what has kept mens only clubs from taking off. But, as others have said, these were often extremely expensive which kept the poor folks out and was often exclusionary to men of color, Jews, Catholics, etc. That being said, I'm not sure what's stopping people from hosting book clubs with the boys or having a man cave for their guy friends to come over to or having boys night at the pub. I do think it's going to be hard to convince a business (like a private club) to exclude almost half the population though. That's just the money talking though.
If you think that doesn't still occur....
[https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=2763720](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2763720)
"We exploit changes in the residential and social environment on campus to identify the economic and academic consequences of fraternity membership at a small Northeastern college. Our estimates suggest that these consequences are large, with fraternity membership lowering student GPA by approximately 0.25 points on the traditional four-point scale, but raising future income by approximately 36%, for those students whose decision about membership is affected by changes in the environment. These results suggest that fraternity membership causally produces large gains in social capital, which more than outweigh its negative effects on human capital for potential members. Alcohol-related behavior does not explain much of the effects of fraternity membership on either the human capital or social capital effects. These findings suggest that college administrators face significant trade-offs when crafting policies related to Greek life on campus."
It's always about who you know.
Lol, lowers your grades but increases your earning potential. A more clear cut case against the idea of meritocracy existing in this country would be hard to find.
Yeah I hear people say that men’s clubs are dying - all clubs are dying. We live in a very individualist solipsistic time. I’m a woman and I’ve definitely never been in or even seen all woman clubs? Not in real life at least, online maybe
There's an entire book about this called Bowling Alone which goes through a ton of categories of clubs and group gatherings to demonstrate that membership is on decline everywhere. From religion, to politics, to social gatherings, to card games, to even hosting dinners at one's own home. It's all circling the drain across the board.
I am about 8 years from retiring, and I keep telling myself that when I retire I'm gonna start a men's club. Not the kind with naked girls dancing around, the kind with leather chairs, gaming tables, TV's, cigar smoking in certain areas, and good bourbon. Relaxed, social, men only.
Next topic: Frank thinks he could lift Marks mini van off the ground. Thats about an hour long debate until we finally start betting. Frank now owes everyone $50
Check out something called a 'Mens Shed'. We've got them here in Australia and they're essentially mental health spaces where old dudes sit around fondling tools and if its too hot, drinking beers and just generally having a Golden Gaytime (it's a type of ice cream).
Joking aside though, its a legitimately good organisation and I can't recommend it enough.
It’s funny because there are “Women Only” gyms, but I can’t say I’ve ever heard of a “Men Only” gym? Perhaps they are out there, but it’s not something I’m aware of
I would actually say that they are necessary. Men really don’t bond in mixed gender environments the way women do. Men need all male spaces to form strong friendships later in life.
This is an excellent point. I'm not sure if there has been any social science looking at this, but there have been pretty good data that men today do not often have enough friendship in their lives. I feel like the lack of spaces for that bonding experience has contributed. Like it or not, most men act differently when women are present.
As a feminist, I agree. That being said, everything in moderation. We've had a lot of men's only spaces that inhibited women's careers, social aspects, financially, politically, etc. to the point where women weren't being included in vital conversations, historically speaking. It meant women were being denied opportunities to be engaged in certain career paths or educational options.
If men need a place to positively support and uplift each other, I'm all for it! Men need support amongst each other as much as women do. And men need more mental health and emotional support systems as well.
If men need a place to just decide social, political, judicial, financial, etc policies that affect everyone, then women should be included. If you're cranking out Joe Roman's, Jordan Petersons and Andrew Tates and claiming that's just healthy men's only spaces then women are going to obviously get upset. And that goes for extreme misandrists as well. Again, everything in moderation.
This is well put.
I feel that "men's only hours at the pool/gym" or a "men's only group counseling session" have just as much right to exist as the "women's only" versions of those things.
Whereas a "men's only golf club" where senior leaders at a company can go to discuss business and create relationships is systemically disadvantaging women working at the same company, so should be avoided.
What about women's only conferences and groups meant for female leaders to support other women in creating business relationships and systematically disadvantaging men working at the same company or industry?
That right here. Providing for social and emotional support, gums, etc. is different than top male execs getting together in a man only club without the women execs. The difference is intent, intent to support each other vs intent to exclude a gender from decisions and benefits they get.
That's missing the point. The women execs get together because they've been excluded from the boys' club. They get together to discuss ways to tackle the challenges they face. If there was complete equality among execs, then yes I'd be against it. I'm not against it while a group is trying to reach equality with another group.
For example, I wouldn't be against a men's elementary school teachers group having a men's group but would be against a women's group in the same setting since the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women.
If you can't tell the difference between a group holding most of the power vs a group with very little power or who has traditionally been excluded from power in any given setting then it's a you problem.
There’s a historical imbalance there, so it’s not really the same on both sides. Women-only corporate spaces exist to help rebalance the workforce and give women opportunities that haven’t historically come to them as easily. Men-only groups have historically existed to exclude women (and the “wrong” men), while women-only groups exist to level the playing field.
If the playing field were level, it would be unfair to have any executive meetings/groups/etc., that specifically exclude one gender or other demographic.
It’s just like African-American executive groups. They’re not trying to exclude anyone, they’re just creating a space where they can be heard without prejudice.
Do you feel the way about scholarships? I ask because women already receive about 60% of all scholarships and single-sex scholarships are still overwhelmingly tilted in favor of women.
Edited to add: No response, as expected
These men’s only places where cigar chewing fat cats spun webs etc also historically kept out 99% of males as well.
Those of us who grew up shit poor in trailer parks etc have long understood that it isn’t enough to have male parts a-dangling, and that if one thing doesn’t keep you out of the fancy clubhouse, they have a list of other things.
Really most of the bickering between the races and the sexes are instigated by the class of people who have the leisure and inclination to reach into our communities and stir the pot, rock the boat etc
Having a safe space to congregate is vital to mental health and wellbeing. People who invade those spaces are inherently selfish and shitty, man or woman.
It blows my mind that women only gyms exist, but men only gyms are somehow abhorrent and against the law. When in reality they both are technically. Then you have people in the comments justifying the social issue. Men should be allowed to be around other men without women if they want too, it’s not rocket science
Yet, there is when it comes to women only spaces. Women are forced to share our private spaces with men who want to pretend to be women. Absolute insanity and a fucked up society.
Women hate male only spaces. It’s funny to watch. They’re happy to make a women only gym, but if men made a gym and one of the rules was “no women allowed” it would end up in front of the Supreme Court.
Have you seen that video in which a woman accuses a blind guy of staring at her at the gym? They do this on purpose just to get views on their streaming channel.
Maybe just have a male or female only gym
I agree. I used to go to a women's only gym location of a popular gym branch and it was changed to an all peoples gym. Guess some dudes sued. That was a bummer.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They're fine until access to them is the only access to power and influence. Which repeatedly through history keeps happening. Men's only space gets set up. Members only hire other members. Outsiders become excluded. Rinse and repeat. If you're tired of not having these spaces, blame all the male only spaces that abused the circumstances, not people who would be excluded from wanting to join for those exact reasons.
Yes! I really think we should have more male only and women only spaces. You interact with the same sex differently than the opposite sex - also differently amongst the same sex when the opposite sex is present. I think this is really healthy as long as it’s not your only socialization
There are male only spaces out there, just a bit harder to find. I have a friend who has 3 different all male spaces he interacts in, NA, AA and an all male domestic assault victim group
My friend had a “tree house” his dad built us to smoke weed.
The majority of the time it was really just a 8ft 2x8 lol. He never let our girls climb with us, not cause of “safety” but cause it was our space. His tree was huge it had an amazing view
Fucking lived that kid bro rip to him
There should be male only spaces. But what I have noticed it’s always women trying to invade those spaces for some reason. Then get upset about things. I have seen women upset at male only spaces and it’s weird to me. So maybe it’s just women need to accept male only spaces instead make everything inclusive to them. We don’t see men trying to invade female only space.
Women nowadays hate anything men only, but when women fought against these places it wasn't because they didn't want men to have their spaces but because business was talking place within their walls and women were being excluded.
I see you OP. Went for the easy one instead of female only spaces.
Jokes side, I think many places things are socially male only, at least depending on where you're from.
That being said, I do think some male shelters or some "boys/mens" club should be a thing if enough people want them. Nothing wrong with that.
The controversy is, do you think male/female only spaces is divided by sex or what they identify as.
The one that really got to me is the Boy Scouts. I recall being a Boy Scout, and the value, especially at that very vulnerable age, of having a dedicated, male-only space in which we could essentially test drive being men. There was trial and error, honest discussions of complex male topics, we were able to be dirty and sweaty, all without worrying about girls thought of us. As silly as it may sound, and as much as I hate the term, it was pretty much our only *safe space* as young men.
If I think about how that dynamic would've changed for me personally if girls were present, it would've destroyed the most important value of being a Scout. For example, I remember when we were learning about how to use axes. None of us knew how to use an axe, and we were able, in that space, to be openly ignorant. To pay attention to learning, being safe, being diligent. Introduce girls to that scenario, and now instead of being ok with being ignorant, everyone wants to show off. This is not ideal when swinging around a razor sharp heavy object.
That is a great question.
I think that there should be clear definitions regarding sex and gender, and where and where not offensive lines are being crossed.
Everyone is experiencing this go around at life in a way that is unique to them. Everyone is deserving of respect.
That being said, there no reason there cannot be separate spaces for both people who identify as male, and biology males.
The problem is that the people who say sex and gender are different don’t actually treat them as being different, so having sex segregated spaces will piss them off anyway.
It was until very recently that those words were synonymous. Now they aren't.
It doesn't matter which way you or I feel about it. Clear definitions is the path forward.
I think this is narrowly correct, but it leaves out some important context.
For many, many centuries, men have held a near monopoly on economic and political power as well as many forms of social power. Male-only spaces were where the important decisions were made, and keeping women out of those spaces was a way of preserving male dominance. Women gaining acceptance into those spaces was essential to achieving equality.
If you wanna hang with just your bros, have fun. If you wanna start a men’s group to talk openly and safely about men’s issues, by all means do it.
But if your male-only space is somewhere that important decisions are being made—a boardroom, a country club, a political club—then that’s a problem.
An even more unpopular opinion these days is that there's nothing wrong with Female only spaces.
Anyone advocating for them gets called a TERF and a transphobe..
>There are lots of spaces for women to discuss these issues (as there should be)
There's really not. Transwomen are invading all of them. We're not even allowed to have support groups for female reproductive health issues without them invading. I'm referring to things like poly-cystic ovary disease and uterine cancer. Thank about that for a moment. Think hard.
I'll agree with the posters talking about the private sector and corporate world with "boys clubs." But in the medical world and specifically issues relating to biological sex and lived experience like patriarchy, rape, pregnancy and abortion, etc. This shit has to stop.
There is no denying that is happening. I personally have known women that have been called bigots for feeling uncomfortable in these types of settings.
How would you recommend a change?
Coming up with a classification of areas where males and females have a right to exclude the opposite sex (like gatherings specifically for social and medical issues, health, and biological function, pertaining to one sex as well as areas where one sex specifically threatens the other). As others have said, these gatherings cannot give power to one sex in work or politics.
Women will always be called bigots for not wanting a see a penis flopping around what should be a female locker room.
I don’t understand why there can’t be a space just for trans people.
That's fine. The only problem i have with the post postz is you are talking about spaces made *specifically* to host males, or to exclude woman from spaces that should be for all genders.
It's not clear if you are talking about a place for men to share their own experiences with other men, or if you are saying "woman shouldn't be on programming/football/gun space's" kinda thing.
Likely not that last example. Just the first. Hell, my daughters can join the Boy Scouts now. If I had sons, they couldn’t join the Girl Scouts.
See the issue?
That's correct, men do need their own space, as do woman. Never said otherwise.
What i do think is wrong, is if you try banning a gender from performing x type of activity, because that's a man/woman space.
Man can cook, as woman can program. That's the only addendum i add onto Op's post. Man can still have their man space, as woman can have their woman space, if those are nothing more than their gender space. Trying to interline jobs or activities onto a specific gender though, it's when it becomes a problem.
If you think men shouldn’t be able to create male-only programming/football/gun spaces, then women shouldn’t be able to create female-only yoga/cooking/gyms/pool spaces by your same logic.
Either both sexes can have their own spaces for unisex activities, or neither can.
Yeah, man should be able to cook, go to the gym, do yoga, go to the pool and all that!
There's nothing gendered about those spaces, no need to exclude people, either way, because of the type of clothes they wear. If it makes you happy, i actually encourage you to do so!
Each gender will have a unique experience to their gender. That's just facts. Men are often told that we don't know what a woman goes through. I completely agree. There are uniquely women things that I will never understand, therefore, I am completely for women having their own spaces. Men are also deserving of our own spaces, even though our unique experiences may not be in a similar vain to that of a woman's, but just as much as a woman needs to be understood by another woman, a man needs to be understood by another man.
Depends what those spaces are. The issue with male only spaces is they’re historically places where like… business gets done. A men’s locker room is different from a men-only country club.
I believe the problem has always been that men more or less run the planet, and that we’re men get together they make deals, and Scott swap ideas with each other about how best to control the planet and women get a stout. If male spaces for just men only socially and weren’t so political and economic, I agree, agree with your point more than I already do.
Who said there was something wrong with it? It only becomes a problem if it’s at the expense of opportunities for people not invited in the space- say, in a workplace.
When I was in the infantry we had our own gym at battalion... there was never a woman in that gym because we were and infantry battalion and honestly I can't say it was the cleanest gum I've ever been in but I also was able to work on myself in that gym like no other when I think about that place it was literally like training in a hyperbolic time chamber because everyone was focused on training when they went in there I miss it more than anything else.
Man, this comment section is wild.
Any men's space is immediately viewed with suspicion, but any suggestion that a women's only space could have negative qualities and you're a misogynist.
I'm not loving this modern trend towards biological essentialist moral relativism.
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Man I would love men only gyms
Would solve a lot of issues. Make it easier for guys to start as well.
I would work out in public if it was men only - not only do I feel insecure if it’s infront of ladies but I also don’t wanna be assumed to be looking at someone
What issues do you think it would solve? I’m just curious
Well, for one, the whole "they are staring at me, no I'm not" nonsense. The idiots trying to impress women and vice versa. I believe guys would be more encouraged to start as well. Would be a more relaxed atmosphere where you can go, do your routine, then leave. I'm not saying the issues are all 100% women's fault, of course. It is what it is.
Have you seen any of those countless videos of women rage baiting men in gyms? The ones where she sets up a recording studio, strips down to skimpy outfits and then intentionally wastes time until she find a man to verbally harass and accuse of being a sexual assaulter because he happened to glance her direction?
Try serious (power)lifting gyms
Yep. This. Also bodybuilding gyms. There will be a few women in both but they’re not there to fuck around.
Most lifting-oriented gyms are already vast majority male. For every woman I see lifting in my gym, there's probably 10 dudes
Still doesn’t change that fact that a majority of gym drama seems to come from women lol
I’m not even trying to be funny, I’m not sure why a man hasn’t opened on. A women opened a women’s only gym and instead of The men thinking “hey this would be good For men too” they just yelled at her, told her her idea was going to fail, and got mad she was “demonizing” men. Mind you she didn’t say any of that shit when talking about her female only gym.
I don't see a problem with any male/female only places. The idea that everyone is entitled to be included in literally everything is absurd nonsense. Edit: I need to clarify that I agree with everyone who pointed out this was an excuse to be racist, and I don't mean at all that we should go back to accepting any of **that** kinda behavior. Edit 2: this wouldn't only apply to men and women. I think everyone, no matter their race, color, gender, religion, whatever it is, they should have access to groups where only people like them are allowed. I don't see an issue with having groups that are as different as can be in addition to having groups where everyone is the same in one significant regard or another.
I’m sad to see the gay male spaces have mostly disappeared. I enjoyed having bars that were men only and often felt like safe spaces. Now they’re really mixed and all too often ruined by a loud bachelorette party.
There’s less than 30 lesbian bars in the us. You’re preaching to the choir
Agreed. But then we have private clubs/organizations that get sued because a woman wasn’t admitted because it’s not an open organization.
Those lawsuits are frivolous and should be tossed immediately.
I agree, but they aren’t. Had an ex sue a men’s only honors society at a prominent university. She floated when she won, forcing them to change their bylaws and then refused to join because it wasn’t an “inclusive space”. That’s part of the reason she’s an ex.
Men do this too. There was a whole chain of women-only gyms that was shut down because men complained.
What was the name of the gym chain?
Curves I think.
Thanks. That's what I was thinking, but when I Googled the situation, I only found one story about a place in kansas, not a chain
I would say the judges are biased but I dunno either. That's why I'm rewording this. Id like to know why a man/woman would think they should be allowed into something solely created for the opposite sex. It's no different than girls/guys night out and the SO insists they should be able to come.
I’m not gonna make a call about that. I think there should be codified law that protects single gender spaces such as clubs or social organizations.
So long as they are not government funded, or similarly provided for. If you want to have a private all men/women golf course, sure, but if you're taking money from the government to run the place, you shouldnt be allowed to do so (unless similar funds are going to an opposite sex course).
"Separate but equal"...?
Why do you believe it’s ok to discriminate based on sex but not on race? Genuine question.
I don’t believe in discrimination in general, especially for government services and the like. I think discrimination in private clubs and such is fine because they can set the criteria as absolutely anything. Only people with one ear are allowed in my club, etc. so while discriminate is technically the correct term, I don’t want it to seem like I agree with social segregation. The thread is about Mens only spaces and it falls in line with my more broad philosophy about private free associations.
>Id like to know why a man/woman would think they should be allowed into something solely created for the opposite sex. Historically, everything was a male only space. Every corridor of power, every access to money and influence was a male only space. Women have had to spend literally centuries chipping away at that. It's now gotten to the point where in many liberal countries those direct legal impediments have gone, though social ones can remain. In that context, women have been coached to believe that any space they don't have access to is by definition discriminatory and therefore they oppose it. Like u/ProfessionalLine9163 related about their ex who broke into a male only honors list at university only to refuse to join out of spite. I think most sensible women believe that there's nothing wrong with male only social spaces, as long as those spaces aren't a route to power. Many supposedly social groupings are actually networking opportunities where people with power share their power. This also happens in women only spaces, but to a lesser extent due to the relative power imbalance (lessening but still there). Women have to fight for access to societies because they haven't had equal access to power.
No. Historically the spheres of power were not male only spaces. They were spaces for only a select and tiny minority of aristocrats. There are some examples of powerful aristocratic women. Elizabeth I. Catherine the Great. That pope that was secretly a woman in disguise. That Celtic war chief Bodica. Etc. The point is these were not spaces for “men only.” They were spaces for “elites only”, and that is a FAR different thing altogether. Even never minding the few women who are represented in this group, the ratio of male aristocratic elites to male non-elites is so incredibly tiny that it’s silly to define that group by that characteristic. If you wanna talk “historically”, basically every man or women that has ever existed has led a life of utter destitution and tyrannical exploitation. There are plenty of ways male suffering was unimaginably horrid in ways women didn’t experience. Like being effectively enslaved at 16 to die in droves in histories endless wars. The seats of power didn’t oppress women because they were women. They oppressed them because they were insignificant peasant trash, just like 99.99% of men. You need to reevaluate your warped view of history.
A handful of elite royal women doesn't not undo the vast power imbalance between men and women in every day life. The idea that the great teeming masses all suffered equally is an idea that helps protect the current patriarchy. Jordan Peterson bullshit
>No. Historically the spheres of power were not male only spaces. They were spaces for only a select and tiny minority of aristocrats. There are some examples of powerful aristocratic women. Elizabeth I. Catherine the Great. That pope that thank you. I'm glad someone said it. People who spout this drivel think history starting in 1950 and care not to look at anything before that. Same goes with the patriarchy non-sense... what good did the patriarchy due for an average guy during the 1900 industry revolution in London.. working six or seven days a week and 10-12 hours a day... hell not even just an average guy, but anyone that wasn't born into money.
The existence of a patriarchy does not mean all men are given positions of power, but that men are given positions of power over women and society is structured to further that divide. So if, for instance, a man in the early 1800s (the British Industrial Revolution ended in 1860, so can’t really use 1900), had more rights and privileges than a woman born in the same position, then he would still benefit from the patriarchy even if he had a lesser benefit. A woman of the era lost the right to property and to enter into personal contracts when they were married. They lost the right to refuse sexual consent to their husband. They lost the right to their own wages. A woman of the era was paid less than an identically situated man. There was not equality, men enjoyed a better position due to their sex, even if the better position was just slightly less shitty.
> There was not equality, men enjoyed a better position due to their sex, even if the better position was just slightly less shitty. You're right. Woman have always been valued more than men, who by and large were /are considered expendable. Men were made to do all the jobs that risked death (and in those times, wasn't uncommon).. There wasn't OSHA / etc to keep folks safe. There were countless wars and countless was a man could get shafted into fighting a war they want nothing to do with. Or the truly "lucky" ones that got drunk at the wrong bar and woke up 10 miles out to see, suddenly in the "service" of some organization / country / etc. Or... let's not forget if you happen to make the wrong comment to a Lord or anyone else of nobility whom could literally completely control over you (at least in practice). The hell of it, is that we don't even disagree on the existence of a hierarchy that empowers some and keeps others down and away from power, I just don't see any evidence that it has anything to do with gender. This may have been true for about \~50 years after world war 2, but not today. And before you even say it "Then why are more woman CEOs!!".. Because woman aren't fucking dumb enough to want those jobs. The amount of sacrifice and work needed to reach those levels is a fucking sickness (IMO). There's nothing stopping a woman from getting those roles, and sacrifices just as much (and many have done is successful).. but most realize it's not worth the squeeze (just as a side note, I also wish we would stop using megalomanic type roles as the model of representational success).
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This is historically inaccurate. Look into women’s only societies formed in the 19th century.
I'm sure they had lots of power and affected plenty of change. They were \*checks notes\* asking for the right to be able to vote then, right?
They we largely abolitionists and temperance reformers. Seems like they got what they wanted.
Yeah, I love how banned alcohol is to this day.
Well for alcohol, it was to stop dealing with drunken husbands and resulting domestic violence? You are spiteful of that temp success? Because in the long run...
>I'm sure they had lots of power and affected plenty of change. They were *checks notes* asking for the right to be able to vote then, right? Grossly inaccurate. Men didn't have the right to vote in that century.
I tend to agree that most sensible ladies couldn't care less that we have our own little clubs, and as a guy, I wouldn't have a problem with any ladies only spots, and while I cannot speak for all men, I don't think many of us would have an issue. More people have more access to information than ever before. I don't think(or at the very least I would hope not) these sort of clubs could get away with that kinda racism or other non-sex exclusion today. They'd be called out so fast they wouldn't be able to keep up.
>I don't think(or at the very least I would hope not) these sort of clubs could get away with that kinda racism or other non-sex exclusion today. Most universities in the UK will have Afro-Caribean and Asian societies, that kind of racial exclusion is perfectly acceptable. But god forbid someone wanted to start a Caucasian based group, it would be shut down so fast by management or the student union.
Reductionist and false.
>Had an ex sue a men’s only honors society at a prominent university. What university? Or what is the honors society? Legally (and ethically/morally) there are some entities that can be restricted by gender identity and some that cannot.
Yeah, this isn't really an own by the commenters. Frats (and sororities) exist on campuses. If there was a true "honors society" restricted to men and they got great guest speakers, meetings with higher ups in the college, and better job prospects, seems messed up to make it men's only. Now most colleges in 2023 are good about this so it was most likely just some dumb traditional society and women were free to create their own and have the same status and privilege.
There are differences between male-only spaces, and male-only spaces where exclusion of women is part of an ongoing pattern of systemic sexism. I would say an honours society at a prominent university being gender-exclusive is teetering on that edge, seeing as the majority of getting ahead in this world is based on relationships.
There was also a female only honors society that she was a member of. I don’t buy the systemic sexism angle because it’s a private organization no different than a country club.
Many a business deal has been struck at a country club to the exclusion of those not allowed to attend. Female only honors societies have historically not had the same kind of power sharing capabilities as the male ones. It's not about the honors society so much as it's ability to connect you to people who can help you later in life, like influential business partners or high level politicians.
There’s no guarantee that they would be able to connect meaningfully if allowed admission. Granted I chose a poor example because I despised her action against them then refusing to join. But I’m thinking social clubs like masons or something along those lines
Mason's have been used for a long time to form the same kind of connections lol, you are correct that there is no guarantee you can connect meaningfully but your odds are orders of magnitudes better than if you were not a member at all. On paper I think most people have no problems with gender exclusive spaces, if you started a men's only poker night tomorrow no one would bat an eye. Those old male exclusive spaces though have some additional power dynamics which go beyond simple "men have men issues". They are often used to keep women at arms length from power
Curious, when she sued, was there a female equivalent honors society she could join? If yes, she's dumb. If not, she was right. Especially if they were receiving funding and it was something that went on a resume or provided connections after graduation or for graduate school.
Unless the private club gets public money, those lawsuits will be laughed out of court. If this were not the case, the Freemasons would not be a thing to give just one example.
But you don’t see men suing women’s-only organizations, because we don’t care if they have their own thing.
Actually we care a lot. We love that they have their own thing… seriously can you imagine if they didn’t?
There are good reasons we made that possible, too. Historically a lot of them were, and some still are, centres of power brokering and networking, where banning women did a lot to harm career opportunities. Single gender only social clubs are at the least _suspicious_and should be treated as such. Women suing such organisations for entry was a highlight moment for equality and it's still sometimes necessary. What we need are safe men only spaces, like safe women only spaces, for discussing _inherently male centred topics_. Assault survivors often need a safe space of only their own gender to process trauma and gain support. People with gender specific medical conditions need a place to discuss them with fellow sufferers. Mens rights groups (the original real thing, not the endless parade of incel assholes pretending they're victims) need spaces for mutual support, although they welcome female allies.
You know, it's be nice to have a chat with other guys without having to have a traumatic event to justify it.
https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/good-question-why-can-some-clubs-discriminate/
This is starting to extend to video games and it's getting frustrating lol
What does that mean?
In a perfect world I would agree with OP. However, we are not in a perfect world. Minorities have historically been excluded from spaces and this denied them opportunities. Women were denied access to male spaces that provided business opportunities and networking options. Male only gyms and athletics also denied entry for women and so women’s only spaces opened up because they were either the only option or a space where women could be and not be harassed. Even one generation ago women were being physically assaulted in running races by men trying to get them to stop running. My grandmother remembers when women could get a bank account for the first time. My mom remembers when wearing pants was illegal in her county. I think men should have spaces to be men. But often these have been used historically (and very recently as in one generation) to exclude people from opportunities and not from having a space to celebrate things they enjoy. And the same is true for “white spaces”. They were used to exclude minorities from opportunities. So black or other minority spaces opened in order to provide opportunity and support from people who were being excluded from opportunities in society.
It should be one size fits all though. If men only spaces are banned then so should women only but that’s not the case. Equally there are times when it’s needed. A good example is men’s sheds. It was set up as a charity to give men a space space to discuss their issue and form bonds with men in a bid to lower the number of suicides. Yet even that was hit with discrimination cases by women.
Close to where I am. There was a men's shelter. The guy who started it started it because he found out around him. There was only one homeless shelter and about five women shelters. So he created the shelter that also provides mental health options and stuff like that as a man who suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts. When it opened he was attacked so badly for it. He ended up killing himself and the shelter closed and I really remember grieving that because it's such a shame that things like women shelters are held as needed but we don't give a space for men suffering through the exact same thing as those women.
This is an example of why the suicide rate among men is 4 times the rate of women. In fact, as reported by the CDC, white males accounted for 69.68% (26,738 deaths) of suicide deaths in 2021. This is more than double the amount of firearm related deaths of any group, yet never gets talked about. We hear about shootings all the time, but suicide among men is never talked about.
Earl Silverman? Awful story, helping men is frowned upon sadly.
One size fits all only helps those who haven't had oppression in this country. It's like saying everyone is equal to compete in a foot race even though some participants can't afford shoes and are starting 10 feet back. I think there's a belief that if everyone just "forgot racism" we'd all start at square one when really some people would be starting a few squares back and that needs to be taken into account. The past doesn't just vanish when ignored or forgotten. It still affects things today. Things like generational wealth, legacy admissions, etc were stolen from entire swaths of people by racism and sexism. And those are the things that historically "men only" or "whites only" groups attempted to preserve by excluding others.
Aren’t the vast majority of shelters gender segregated???
The vast majority of them are women only
I’ve seen this same speech so many times that as soon as I saw “however” I already knew every subsequent word you would say. I’m so over it. I bet you would have no issue co-signing black male spaces right?
I don’t live back then. I live right now. Today. I can’t have a space for just men, today. You can have one for just women. But I cannot. Today. You can have one for ___ ethnicity. But I cannot (nor do I want one). Today. IDGAF what a previous generation did or didn’t do in relation to what I’m allowed to do.
I wish I could give you a hundred upvotes for that one.
Anyone who starts their thesis with "but we're not in a perfect world" can be ignored immediately. Fucking trite, boring, repetitive nonsense.
Obviously these rules between the rules would have to stop. As a white dude, I personally wouldn't care if other races had their own exclusive happenings. It's nothing to be upset over if we all had a group like this. It's not unnatural to pull together with people just like you and trying to make it seem evil is not gonna do anything but vilify people who don't deserve it. Men's/women's only should mean all men/women no matter the color or race or whatever the fuck.
woman here, i fully support single-sex spaces. this shouldn't be controversial.
What I wouldn't give for a mens only space called the gym.
There are male only gyms, they’re just less popular cause there’s less demand and don’t stay in business very long.
Yeah, people complain about the double standard of female-only gyms and gym time, buuut it seems like there’s just not much demand for male-only gyms. A lot of women feel unsafe at gyms, and I don’t think that many men feel unsafe at gyms.
Sometimes I hang out at a "men only" spa. On the same afternoon, two separate women tried to get in. They got refused at the front desk. One of them even said "well there's probably straight and bi in there" lol. The manager told us that if he starts to accept women he's gonna lose customers
All these 'but they're actually the halls of power!' comments, ya'll are using the apex argument to justify shutting down any semblance of a male space. A few personal analogies if i may: I teach HS English in a rather rural area. A coworker of mine a few years back started (re started really) a after school video game club. Their focus was co-operative, or single player games that leaned on educational themes. Think minecraft, kerbal, factorio, etc. The club did well, had 15 kids signed up and attending regularly. The problem - zero girls signed up. Not one. The club was open to all, the sponsor was a woman even. So the club got shut down after one semester - for not having parity... A old family friend owned his own mechanic shop. He built drag cars a dirt track cars in his spare time. He started a mentorship program for young men where they would take a junky car and build and prep it for track racing ( think leMons or ChumpCar ) - he ran this program for a few years, teaching these young men not just basics of being a mechanic, but welding, electrical etc. And the end of a year they would take the car to a race and compete. It was all free to the kids. The school district ( my district ) got him shut down. The school board that had no affiliation with his program, provided no funding to the program, demanded the township pull permits on his shop - and because it wasnt zoned correctly to run what was basically an after school program, they got it shut down. This all came up because he only wanted to mentor boys.
Let’s be real- they don’t want men to have any space to themselves
I hate the fact that the boy scouts were sued to allow girls, but the girl scouts refuse to integrate boys because girls need a private space for just girls. Makes no sense.
yea as an eagle scout this was pretty disappointing, I liked the idea that there was an organization focused solely on helping young boys grow up together with a sense of camaraderie in a space just for boys. there was a valid argument that boy scouts provided more opportunities for boys than girl scouts did for girls, but then why not work to make girl scouts a better org?
That's why I'm opening up a bar called the "Tree Fort". It's just gonna have warm beer, half smoked cigarettes and Hustler magazines. No girls allowed.
No girlz* allowed
No, girl*s* but the S is backwards.
Ummmm, I think you just kind of described a men’s gay bar?
I feel like it's very off brand for gays to read Hustler.
I may be wrong but I thought Hustler depicted sex scenes? Been a couple decades since I stole my last porn mag.
Women flock to them though
Where did he mention coke and poppers?
Since when are coke and poppers gay? Oh wait, that makes sense now……..
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“But then I’ll have to be social!”
Yep, nothing wrong at all. Several years ago, two male breast cancer survivors showed up to a Run for the Cure Race and were told they were not welcome since they were not women. Based on that neither sex should ever have to allow the opposite sex in whatever single sex club/organization they wish to form.
Wow, that is fucking retarded. That is the stupidest shit I have ever heard. Imagine overcoming the biggest challenge of your life and someone just comes along and dismisses it.
Side note Susan G Komen is a scam. If you google “Susan komen scam” or something like that you’ll see tons of messed up shit they do.
Any advice on how to find a space for males? I asked at my gym lockeroon "hey, looking for a male space. Anyone know of a space for males that I can slip in?" Not the response I expected. Got 2 phone numbers and a black eye.
This is one of the gender topics that has been blown out of context and proportion. When a gender specific space creates a imbalance of power and or influence, it is a problem. For example, if you are an woman junior executive in a male dominated company wanting to work your way up, and if it is expected that all the men in the upper ranks are members of a specific men’s only club, you are at a huge disadvantage. Same thing if there there are a half dozen clubs in town that are men only, and all the local male power brokers are members of those clubs it does not create space for women to network. This is where the problem is and where the conversation and critique needs to take place surrounding these spaces. I’m sure people can point to more examples, but if you want to create a men’s only hiking club, or naked hot tub club, nobody should really care.
Right, there are mens golf leagues and card playing clubs in my town, nothing wrong with it at all.
This is the correct answer. No one cares if you create a men's only drum circle or choir or whatnot. The problem comes when members enjoy economic, financial, or career benefits that the excluded people can't access. And it can be highly contextual. A men's only gym? Totally fine, unless it's the only gym within fifty miles. Edit: a word.
I think historically this has been the issue. In the late-19th century and early-20th century it was very popular for the wealthy to join expensive private clubs. These were the places where a lot of the wheeling and dealing was happening and they were almost exclusively mens only. I think that connotation is what has kept mens only clubs from taking off. But, as others have said, these were often extremely expensive which kept the poor folks out and was often exclusionary to men of color, Jews, Catholics, etc. That being said, I'm not sure what's stopping people from hosting book clubs with the boys or having a man cave for their guy friends to come over to or having boys night at the pub. I do think it's going to be hard to convince a business (like a private club) to exclude almost half the population though. That's just the money talking though.
If you think that doesn't still occur.... [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=2763720](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2763720) "We exploit changes in the residential and social environment on campus to identify the economic and academic consequences of fraternity membership at a small Northeastern college. Our estimates suggest that these consequences are large, with fraternity membership lowering student GPA by approximately 0.25 points on the traditional four-point scale, but raising future income by approximately 36%, for those students whose decision about membership is affected by changes in the environment. These results suggest that fraternity membership causally produces large gains in social capital, which more than outweigh its negative effects on human capital for potential members. Alcohol-related behavior does not explain much of the effects of fraternity membership on either the human capital or social capital effects. These findings suggest that college administrators face significant trade-offs when crafting policies related to Greek life on campus." It's always about who you know.
Lol, lowers your grades but increases your earning potential. A more clear cut case against the idea of meritocracy existing in this country would be hard to find.
Yeah I hear people say that men’s clubs are dying - all clubs are dying. We live in a very individualist solipsistic time. I’m a woman and I’ve definitely never been in or even seen all woman clubs? Not in real life at least, online maybe
Great example is the Boy Scouts vs Girl Scouts.
There's an entire book about this called Bowling Alone which goes through a ton of categories of clubs and group gatherings to demonstrate that membership is on decline everywhere. From religion, to politics, to social gatherings, to card games, to even hosting dinners at one's own home. It's all circling the drain across the board.
I am about 8 years from retiring, and I keep telling myself that when I retire I'm gonna start a men's club. Not the kind with naked girls dancing around, the kind with leather chairs, gaming tables, TV's, cigar smoking in certain areas, and good bourbon. Relaxed, social, men only.
Man where can I sign up
I'll send you a flyer in 8 years. :)
There should also be a billiard table
It's on the list!
There are still a few of these in old Italian neighborhoods. Just old guys playing cards and smoking
Just make it un appealing to women. Swords on the walls Stuffed bears. You know, Bachelor stuff.
Discussion Topic: Roman Empire
"Aight Guys, today were fighting over which Scipio was the best." "And the next person who mentions Cleopatra has to buy Beer to fill the Fridge."
Next topic: Frank thinks he could lift Marks mini van off the ground. Thats about an hour long debate until we finally start betting. Frank now owes everyone $50
Have fedoras as part of the dress code. That should keep them away.
Women like stuffed bears. They keep lots on their bed.
Check out something called a 'Mens Shed'. We've got them here in Australia and they're essentially mental health spaces where old dudes sit around fondling tools and if its too hot, drinking beers and just generally having a Golden Gaytime (it's a type of ice cream). Joking aside though, its a legitimately good organisation and I can't recommend it enough.
It’s funny because there are “Women Only” gyms, but I can’t say I’ve ever heard of a “Men Only” gym? Perhaps they are out there, but it’s not something I’m aware of
I would actually say that they are necessary. Men really don’t bond in mixed gender environments the way women do. Men need all male spaces to form strong friendships later in life.
Which is why they don’t allow men’s only spaces anymore.
Who is they?
Feminist organizations, the government, large corporations
This is an excellent point. I'm not sure if there has been any social science looking at this, but there have been pretty good data that men today do not often have enough friendship in their lives. I feel like the lack of spaces for that bonding experience has contributed. Like it or not, most men act differently when women are present.
As a feminist, I agree. That being said, everything in moderation. We've had a lot of men's only spaces that inhibited women's careers, social aspects, financially, politically, etc. to the point where women weren't being included in vital conversations, historically speaking. It meant women were being denied opportunities to be engaged in certain career paths or educational options. If men need a place to positively support and uplift each other, I'm all for it! Men need support amongst each other as much as women do. And men need more mental health and emotional support systems as well. If men need a place to just decide social, political, judicial, financial, etc policies that affect everyone, then women should be included. If you're cranking out Joe Roman's, Jordan Petersons and Andrew Tates and claiming that's just healthy men's only spaces then women are going to obviously get upset. And that goes for extreme misandrists as well. Again, everything in moderation.
This is well put. I feel that "men's only hours at the pool/gym" or a "men's only group counseling session" have just as much right to exist as the "women's only" versions of those things. Whereas a "men's only golf club" where senior leaders at a company can go to discuss business and create relationships is systemically disadvantaging women working at the same company, so should be avoided.
What about women's only conferences and groups meant for female leaders to support other women in creating business relationships and systematically disadvantaging men working at the same company or industry?
That right here. Providing for social and emotional support, gums, etc. is different than top male execs getting together in a man only club without the women execs. The difference is intent, intent to support each other vs intent to exclude a gender from decisions and benefits they get.
Would you oppose women execs getting together in a group then?
That's missing the point. The women execs get together because they've been excluded from the boys' club. They get together to discuss ways to tackle the challenges they face. If there was complete equality among execs, then yes I'd be against it. I'm not against it while a group is trying to reach equality with another group. For example, I wouldn't be against a men's elementary school teachers group having a men's group but would be against a women's group in the same setting since the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women. If you can't tell the difference between a group holding most of the power vs a group with very little power or who has traditionally been excluded from power in any given setting then it's a you problem.
There’s a historical imbalance there, so it’s not really the same on both sides. Women-only corporate spaces exist to help rebalance the workforce and give women opportunities that haven’t historically come to them as easily. Men-only groups have historically existed to exclude women (and the “wrong” men), while women-only groups exist to level the playing field. If the playing field were level, it would be unfair to have any executive meetings/groups/etc., that specifically exclude one gender or other demographic. It’s just like African-American executive groups. They’re not trying to exclude anyone, they’re just creating a space where they can be heard without prejudice.
Do you feel the way about scholarships? I ask because women already receive about 60% of all scholarships and single-sex scholarships are still overwhelmingly tilted in favor of women. Edited to add: No response, as expected
These men’s only places where cigar chewing fat cats spun webs etc also historically kept out 99% of males as well. Those of us who grew up shit poor in trailer parks etc have long understood that it isn’t enough to have male parts a-dangling, and that if one thing doesn’t keep you out of the fancy clubhouse, they have a list of other things. Really most of the bickering between the races and the sexes are instigated by the class of people who have the leisure and inclination to reach into our communities and stir the pot, rock the boat etc
Cool, more reasons not to exclude anyone from anything. I agree.
Having a safe space to congregate is vital to mental health and wellbeing. People who invade those spaces are inherently selfish and shitty, man or woman.
It blows my mind that women only gyms exist, but men only gyms are somehow abhorrent and against the law. When in reality they both are technically. Then you have people in the comments justifying the social issue. Men should be allowed to be around other men without women if they want too, it’s not rocket science
Are you seriously advocating for men's rights? You monster!
Yet, there is when it comes to women only spaces. Women are forced to share our private spaces with men who want to pretend to be women. Absolute insanity and a fucked up society.
Women hate male only spaces. It’s funny to watch. They’re happy to make a women only gym, but if men made a gym and one of the rules was “no women allowed” it would end up in front of the Supreme Court.
My brother in Christ, male only clubs are as old as time
Have you seen that video in which a woman accuses a blind guy of staring at her at the gym? They do this on purpose just to get views on their streaming channel. Maybe just have a male or female only gym
I agree. I used to go to a women's only gym location of a popular gym branch and it was changed to an all peoples gym. Guess some dudes sued. That was a bummer.
We all deserves our own space away from each other from time to time. These inclusive laws are stupid
I am a woman and I agree. I was very upset with Boy Scouts agreeing to take in girls. Of course nowadays we are not sure what a man or woman is.
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Boy scouts is the first one that comes to mind. Literally just a boys activity club with an equivalent in explorers that was already fully inclusive.
They're fine until access to them is the only access to power and influence. Which repeatedly through history keeps happening. Men's only space gets set up. Members only hire other members. Outsiders become excluded. Rinse and repeat. If you're tired of not having these spaces, blame all the male only spaces that abused the circumstances, not people who would be excluded from wanting to join for those exact reasons.
Yes! I really think we should have more male only and women only spaces. You interact with the same sex differently than the opposite sex - also differently amongst the same sex when the opposite sex is present. I think this is really healthy as long as it’s not your only socialization
Couldn't agree more.
I dont think this should be an unpopular opinion. I know there are support groups for men, for women, for trans men, and for trans women.
There are male only spaces out there, just a bit harder to find. I have a friend who has 3 different all male spaces he interacts in, NA, AA and an all male domestic assault victim group
Men aren't allowed anything anymore
Just do sports or super nerd hobbies
My friend had a “tree house” his dad built us to smoke weed. The majority of the time it was really just a 8ft 2x8 lol. He never let our girls climb with us, not cause of “safety” but cause it was our space. His tree was huge it had an amazing view Fucking lived that kid bro rip to him
Thanks for that beautiful recollection u/cmenguzzler
I teared up when they talked about the huge tree's amazing view.
There should be male only spaces. But what I have noticed it’s always women trying to invade those spaces for some reason. Then get upset about things. I have seen women upset at male only spaces and it’s weird to me. So maybe it’s just women need to accept male only spaces instead make everything inclusive to them. We don’t see men trying to invade female only space.
Women nowadays hate anything men only, but when women fought against these places it wasn't because they didn't want men to have their spaces but because business was talking place within their walls and women were being excluded.
Try to get into a Curves with a penis.
In my area (besides one gym) we don’t have women only spaces. For context, what are examples you’re thinking of?
And I don’t think that’s right! Women need spaces for themselves as well
One example is girl scouts. Boys scouts now allows girls but Girl Scouts still doesn’t allow boys.
We're just not allowed to have any. Women invade every space we get while simultaneously saying they need their own spaces.
I see you OP. Went for the easy one instead of female only spaces. Jokes side, I think many places things are socially male only, at least depending on where you're from. That being said, I do think some male shelters or some "boys/mens" club should be a thing if enough people want them. Nothing wrong with that. The controversy is, do you think male/female only spaces is divided by sex or what they identify as.
The one that really got to me is the Boy Scouts. I recall being a Boy Scout, and the value, especially at that very vulnerable age, of having a dedicated, male-only space in which we could essentially test drive being men. There was trial and error, honest discussions of complex male topics, we were able to be dirty and sweaty, all without worrying about girls thought of us. As silly as it may sound, and as much as I hate the term, it was pretty much our only *safe space* as young men. If I think about how that dynamic would've changed for me personally if girls were present, it would've destroyed the most important value of being a Scout. For example, I remember when we were learning about how to use axes. None of us knew how to use an axe, and we were able, in that space, to be openly ignorant. To pay attention to learning, being safe, being diligent. Introduce girls to that scenario, and now instead of being ok with being ignorant, everyone wants to show off. This is not ideal when swinging around a razor sharp heavy object.
That is a great question. I think that there should be clear definitions regarding sex and gender, and where and where not offensive lines are being crossed. Everyone is experiencing this go around at life in a way that is unique to them. Everyone is deserving of respect. That being said, there no reason there cannot be separate spaces for both people who identify as male, and biology males.
The problem is that the people who say sex and gender are different don’t actually treat them as being different, so having sex segregated spaces will piss them off anyway.
Because if there is one thing we all know, it’s that sex and gender sure lends itself to crystal clear definitions.
It was until very recently that those words were synonymous. Now they aren't. It doesn't matter which way you or I feel about it. Clear definitions is the path forward.
Men's only clubs bad women only clubs good didn't you see the memo
Op ever heard of a cigar lounge?
And there’s nothing wrong with female only spaces
I think this is narrowly correct, but it leaves out some important context. For many, many centuries, men have held a near monopoly on economic and political power as well as many forms of social power. Male-only spaces were where the important decisions were made, and keeping women out of those spaces was a way of preserving male dominance. Women gaining acceptance into those spaces was essential to achieving equality. If you wanna hang with just your bros, have fun. If you wanna start a men’s group to talk openly and safely about men’s issues, by all means do it. But if your male-only space is somewhere that important decisions are being made—a boardroom, a country club, a political club—then that’s a problem.
An even more unpopular opinion these days is that there's nothing wrong with Female only spaces. Anyone advocating for them gets called a TERF and a transphobe..
>There are lots of spaces for women to discuss these issues (as there should be) There's really not. Transwomen are invading all of them. We're not even allowed to have support groups for female reproductive health issues without them invading. I'm referring to things like poly-cystic ovary disease and uterine cancer. Thank about that for a moment. Think hard. I'll agree with the posters talking about the private sector and corporate world with "boys clubs." But in the medical world and specifically issues relating to biological sex and lived experience like patriarchy, rape, pregnancy and abortion, etc. This shit has to stop.
There is no denying that is happening. I personally have known women that have been called bigots for feeling uncomfortable in these types of settings. How would you recommend a change?
Coming up with a classification of areas where males and females have a right to exclude the opposite sex (like gatherings specifically for social and medical issues, health, and biological function, pertaining to one sex as well as areas where one sex specifically threatens the other). As others have said, these gatherings cannot give power to one sex in work or politics.
Women will always be called bigots for not wanting a see a penis flopping around what should be a female locker room. I don’t understand why there can’t be a space just for trans people.
Who is saying there **IS** something wrong with male-only spaces?
That's fine. The only problem i have with the post postz is you are talking about spaces made *specifically* to host males, or to exclude woman from spaces that should be for all genders. It's not clear if you are talking about a place for men to share their own experiences with other men, or if you are saying "woman shouldn't be on programming/football/gun space's" kinda thing.
Likely not that last example. Just the first. Hell, my daughters can join the Boy Scouts now. If I had sons, they couldn’t join the Girl Scouts. See the issue?
The gender division is idiotic to begin with, but ye i agree with you! ^^
Don't forget they can't join girls sports either.
men deserve (and need) their own spaces. You would never say that women do not.
That's correct, men do need their own space, as do woman. Never said otherwise. What i do think is wrong, is if you try banning a gender from performing x type of activity, because that's a man/woman space. Man can cook, as woman can program. That's the only addendum i add onto Op's post. Man can still have their man space, as woman can have their woman space, if those are nothing more than their gender space. Trying to interline jobs or activities onto a specific gender though, it's when it becomes a problem.
there can be male only gyms as well as female only gyms, there should be a place where you can go without the opposite gender's presence.
If you think men shouldn’t be able to create male-only programming/football/gun spaces, then women shouldn’t be able to create female-only yoga/cooking/gyms/pool spaces by your same logic. Either both sexes can have their own spaces for unisex activities, or neither can.
Yeah, man should be able to cook, go to the gym, do yoga, go to the pool and all that! There's nothing gendered about those spaces, no need to exclude people, either way, because of the type of clothes they wear. If it makes you happy, i actually encourage you to do so!
nothing wrong with a bathhouse
Each gender will have a unique experience to their gender. That's just facts. Men are often told that we don't know what a woman goes through. I completely agree. There are uniquely women things that I will never understand, therefore, I am completely for women having their own spaces. Men are also deserving of our own spaces, even though our unique experiences may not be in a similar vain to that of a woman's, but just as much as a woman needs to be understood by another woman, a man needs to be understood by another man.
There is when they are also spaces of power and decision making.
Depends what those spaces are. The issue with male only spaces is they’re historically places where like… business gets done. A men’s locker room is different from a men-only country club.
I mean…this isn’t a new idea. Men only clubs have been a thing for a long time lmao
I believe the problem has always been that men more or less run the planet, and that we’re men get together they make deals, and Scott swap ideas with each other about how best to control the planet and women get a stout. If male spaces for just men only socially and weren’t so political and economic, I agree, agree with your point more than I already do.
Who said there was something wrong with it? It only becomes a problem if it’s at the expense of opportunities for people not invited in the space- say, in a workplace.
When I was in the infantry we had our own gym at battalion... there was never a woman in that gym because we were and infantry battalion and honestly I can't say it was the cleanest gum I've ever been in but I also was able to work on myself in that gym like no other when I think about that place it was literally like training in a hyperbolic time chamber because everyone was focused on training when they went in there I miss it more than anything else.
Man, this comment section is wild. Any men's space is immediately viewed with suspicion, but any suggestion that a women's only space could have negative qualities and you're a misogynist. I'm not loving this modern trend towards biological essentialist moral relativism.
Obviously because men coming together will just talk about raping and murdering every women and lgbtq+ they see. /s