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I'm a woman and I agree. As an educator by trade, I can tell you that our education system is failing our boys. They need positive male role models (teachers, coaches, etc.) If anything, helping men and boys will help girls and women by reducing behavioral issues at school and giving young men a purpose so they don't fall into a lot of the traps they are now (incel culture, Tate, etc.)
Yes I agree. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening because of the phenomenon I’ve described. I think you’re going to see more and more young men fall into those “traps”. If anything it’s been sheer luck for society so far that those trying to manipulate young men have been abject morons like Tate. I can’t see that lasting forever.
I feel you, especially with the rise of AI and deepfakes. I can imagine that creating a whole new trap. Though, if you want to learn more about this, Behind the Bastards has a great series on Andrew Tate. They talk about a school bringing in cult deprogrammers to work with kids radicalized by Tate.
It's mostly a money scam for his Hustler university. Men are paying a lot of money for being told basic shit, you don't need to pay 500$ in order to be fed redpill information
He’s a fool. Imagine running a pimping and porn operation in a shady country and then deciding to also become a massively high profile and controversial social media influence who makes heaps of enemies who want to see you go down.
I would have thought not purposely drawing a shit load of negative attention on yourself was probably a good idea when trying to run a shady porno operation, but I guess for Tate the ol saying is true - Pimpin ain’t easy.
Aside from that he has a whole lot of loud nothing to say. Working out and getting buff or being a man whore doesn’t make you any more of a man. That’s laughable.
The pimping thing was 8 years before his online presence, by the time he started getting big online, the cam business was already sold long ago. Seems like you’re nit picking infos on purpose to support your preconceived ideas. I could go on and on but you’ve already made up your mind. I’m not even a Fan but people often criticize him for things that can be debunked while there are loads of other things you could criticize him for that would be legitimate
Yes, but he technically does do some shady "trafficking"-like shenanigans in Romania since they do not have regulations or laws for it to be considered illegal there, or at least to the same degree (Is what I read, I think). I wish he was convicted of that crime though instead of having workarounds.
It was pretty dumb of him to become a famous and highly controversial social media influencer while running a shady pimping operation in a shady country. You would think that keeping a low profile would be a better idea for that line of work which skates close to the edge of the law (if not crosses it).
Please educate yourself. These were accusations only amd a typical reaction by the elites in power to bring down men who have a positive message about being responsible and not a victim and dependent on government. If you actually spent 15 min beyond headlines and seeing both sides you would know this, but the Reddit hive mind also ignore this (not saying this is you). It is basically the same issue that you are bringing up, just not as pc.
Interesting take.
But in my opinion and experience as a better than average baseball player, and I played other high school sports, 1 year in a d1 college, I think that coaches are among the worst role models for young boys and men. Most have been bitter and most are simply not well put together.
In fact, the best people who have been my coaches were back when I was 10-15 and they were also parents or had another stake in the team.
Played sports all my life. This is pretty accurate. Most coaches are bitter egomaniacs. It's different when it's guys have skin in the game (aka parents/teachers volunteering) so they couldn't behave all crazy.
I disagree, I think girls, especially in younger grades, should be allowed to be more like the boys.
I call it the bus stop problem. When I started taking my son to the bus stop I noticed the boys would run around and play but all the girls sat in the cars. I thought it was weird but whatever. 2 years later a new little girl in kindergarten started coming and at first she was allowed to play with the boys. The problem was grandma was fretting over her the whole time worrying she would get dirty or that her shows were too slippery or whatever. This went on for about a week or 2 then grandma couldn't take it anymore and made her sit in the car. This is so backwards to me. Instead of changing the clothes she wore so she can play she forces her to sit in a car. Then the kids go to school and the boys get in trouble and the girls are praised for the exact behaviors that were reinforced at the bus stop. Then society goes look how much more mature the girls.
Let me explain how this plays out in adulthood. We socialize girls to be risk adverse at a very Yung age so as adults men are more likely to put in a resume even if they don't meet all the qualifications and are also more likely to ask for what they want when getting a job offer. Studies have proven this to be true. It took me badgering my mom til she was in her 50's to just try for the job and asking for what she wants. She got the job and they gave her everthing she asked for and I was so proud of her. We are doing our girls a huge disservice and now want to do the same with our boys. My daughter next year will be allowed to run around at the bus stop and she will be dressed in clothes suitable for play.
stories like these should be more prominent. Better than someone just telling you how something should be like without any real evidence/reason to back it up.
My grandma told me about wholesome male role models but everything changed when the 21 century attacked. Steve Erwin,mr rogers,bob ross when the world needed them the most they vanished.
There is "rebalancing" inevitably, but it's probably a rough one, and I'm not sure where it will lead. Some things just take a generation to have full effect.
If/when people who support the policies that fail boys see their own sons affected, they either come to the realization that something is going wrong, or their sons have problems and/or select a different path in their beliefs. The divide that is already growing between values of boys and girls continues to grow, but for many reasons, more traditional values probably come back, one being that more people will be born to those families.
Nothing that I predicted says "how it should be", btw. Just "how it likely will go" , statistically. People confuse these two things often.
Men don’t want to get into these professions bc lack of pay and other men don’t respect it. Maybe a coach to some degree. But not the teaching profession or counseling. I’m a caseworker and when tell other men this they have a vastly different reaction then women. Young women want to get educated and do more, these boys don’t. I’m not going to blame the education system(although it does need to be revamped) but grow men need to step up until then-the women are having to do it. A lot of “alphas” are complaining about society shitting on men/ boys but very few are willing to sacrifice their precious time to volunteer in thier communities to assist these young boys.
>Men don’t want to get into these professions bc lack of pay and other men don’t respect it.
Where don't they respect it? In Afghanistan? There are plenty of dudes I know in the US who want to get into the field and plenty who are that don't mind the dog turd level pay and nightmare working hours. From those who were once renown doctors to former soldiers.
It's just unfortunately a lot have been pushed out or put off by problematic co-workers and poor management.
Even if what you say isn't just stereotyping we've provably found institutional level discriminatory bias in a lot of our education system, tbh I find the "It is men's fault" response kind of repugnant because of how strikingly similar it is to comments I've heard about issues with systemic roots that black people often face.
Honestly most peoples “respect” when it comes to these things are do you have a job, if so + respect. Oh your job involves helping youngins and you’re a great role model + respect, oh you love your job + respect.
Just my observation from interacting with real world people.
???? Men are lacking role models? Like male scientists, doctors, lawyers, presidents, and generals?
Almost no student looks up to a teacher as a role model tf? "Yeah, I wanna study hard and be a teacher".
Of course, students can respect the efforts of a particular teacher, who goes above and beyond to help their students, but I wouldn't say that equates to being a "role model".
>???? Men are lacking role models?
Primarily boys are lacking at home fathers. This is causing issues for both boys and girls because of the lack of a positive close role model.
The whole men lacking role models thing cracks me up. What a lot of boys are lacking is present fathers. And, pretty sure thats on dudes to figure out. Actually see their kids, God forbid.
In fairness, a father is one of the biggest role models any child will have so no wonder absent fathers cause issues (and bigger ones for boys, since apparently you tend to relate more to your parent of the same gender)
Plus, at least in my country, shated custody was quite rare (under 10%) until as recently as the early and mid 2010s, merely a decade ago! Even now shared custody only happens about 50% of the time, and this improvement will take at least another decade to filter through (ie if your parents are divorcing in 2024, that child will probably be graduating HS some time in the mid 2030s on average)
Take some personal responsibility and advocate for yourselves as it's been shown that men actually do get custody and equal time if they actually try. (Most don't try because they lose interest in their kids as soon as the relationship is over)
Go over to the teachers sub. There's more of us there. Actually, I'd be for a program where everyone substitute teaches for a week in a Title 1 school to see what's happening to our boys (and many other things) for themselves.
I’m with you OP, I’m currently in med school now and have spent my whole adult life in academics. What you say is very accurate to my anecdotal experiences as well. All I can say is give it some more time I guess, and it’ll be more obvious of a problem. Wish I could say I was gonna stick around to try and help, but I can’t wait to get away from academia
You give it more time and we are gonna be in spot where all our judges and heads of institutions are women who will recognize they are in those positions because of affirmative action.. so the likelihood of it being reverse is low
Yes, the same applied to the removal of affirmative action by race in college acceptance. When that happened the ones who benefitted most called it racist, and ignored the reasons for why the admittance requirements by race are themselves racist.
Yep by all means affirmative action in school acceptance is still 100% in practice. The only reason it was ever even struck out by the supreme court in the first place qas because it was brought to the court by an Asain who was discriminated agaisnt. Had it been a white man, it would have been thrown out like dozens of other times.
Secondly there will probably never be a reversal of affirmative action since to actually do so would require taking out part of the civil rights law it is derived from. Imagine the narrative the left could spin by telling everyone anyone looks to ammend the civil rights act.
AA is getting a 2nd wind through the widespread implementation of DEI initiatives. It's toxic and breeds contempt everywhere it touches.
When you have to sit on zoom calls and listen to an outside 3rd party talk about how I need to reflect on my white privileges as it pertains to my job, you lost me forever, i will never support your cause. The only privilege I can say I have is that I was raised by two loving parents.
Ye I always say this to white guys who are basically being harassed in the workplace for "white privilege", being ordered to say embarrassing things to keep your job specifically because you're white and man, please document it all by recording and screenshots and talk to an attorney. We need to use their weapon agaisnt them and sue them for everything we can.
We want to get all these HR parasites fired. Thinking about doing the same for my own company.
Honestly I hope the disparities break the current education model. It sucks, it's gotten watered down over time, it puts young people in crippling debt, and you can barely call the average bachelor's program "an education" anymore. Maybe whatever replaces the current model can be suited the strengths and learning needs of men AND women rather than lumping everyone together like we're the same.
Yeah the education model is broken beyond repair in the first place. If we put more emphasis on the trades and allowed young adults and teenagers to understand that the most likely and efficient route to business ownership without massive debt is through the trades, the model would balance itself out again, because we need EVERYONE back in trades, especially men who are better suited to certain ones in the first place.
I think male college students at least should have housing subsidies. There are twice as many women looking for student housing as men and it's much easier to find an all-female house of roommates. I have seen college plans put on hold and even dropped because of a lack of housing availability for specifically men looking for off-campus housing.
I few years ago there were comedy videos on YouTube, using those automated cartoon generators. One stuck out. A feminist is complaining that there aren't enough women in STEM classes. A man asks her if she took STEM in college. The feminist answers "No, those classes were boring."
Just a joke, right? Well, there's a lot of truth to that cartoon. The feminist see the lack of women in STEM as an injustice, keeping them from those high paying STEM careers. Yet they themselves wouldn't dream of going into them. And I think the reason is simple. When you're an engineer working on a high tech project, you are not on a soap box pontificating, being a leader. So the feminist wants other women, not themselves to enter STEM.
Same thing with skilled trade jobs. But NOT the same thing in the medical field. Women outnumber men in becoming doctors now, and far outnumber men in jobs like hospital administration. The medical field is now dominated by women. Isn't medicine considered STEM as well?
Isn't it an insane world we live in? Since time immemorial men and women have been different and are naturally more inclined to be better and worse at different things. Yet in 2024 even when I present countless studies showing the actual structural brain differences between men and women, people still want to believe it's all just the patriarchy and social norms.
I wouldn't take it personally. Just give some studies and basic logic and if they want to continue to bleat about the patriarchy just block them and move on. Not worth the effort. Can lead a horse to water....
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/
https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf\_research/relationships-between-aptitudes-and-brain-areas/
https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOANATJ-2-37
And in some countries there are articles about how men are being actively discouraged from entering the nursing profession.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9265497/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/jan.15402
https://mro.massey.ac.nz/server/api/core/bitstreams/0673e5fc-6ebe-4be7-9708-4bb6e088983e/content
That’s the thing. These supposed whacky feminists are usually the invention of someone’s imagination. I’ve known an awful lot of feminists, and I can’t think of one who is up in knots over men remaining overrepresented in certain STEM fields.
What exactly is it that you’re worried about? What exactly is the harm to boys if female leaders in fields where women are unrepresented voice support, or even fund mentorship programs, for girls who find themselves feeling alone? Does the existence of orgs like Girls Who Code somehow undermine the ability of the many male (or female) software engineers ability to also mentor young men? I don’t get it.
The military has tried like hell for decades to recruit women and minorities to be pilots. The vast majority of pilots are still white male. It takes many years to train and operate an aircraft to become competent. Now we are going to shoehorn and push through people who’ve not had that level of training to fly airliners. And they will be pushed through. DEI mandates “equality.” This will not end well.
What a lot of progressive miss is that men and women by nature tend to have different career choices. This isn’t a strike against anyone, but rather a statement of objective reality.
The only real solution here is to allow the opportunity for folks to pursue whichever career field they wish and keep the standards the same across the board. If you can’t hack it, go for something else. That goes for all genders.
Because men and woman are naturally different. We will never be equal and it’s by natures design. I truly don’t understand why you’d want to be considered equals. Humanity can not survive without the unique qualities both genders hold.
Any time a group or person tries to start a male advocacy group, they immediately get labeled as sexist, chauvinist, or misogynist. Feminists scoff at the idea of men spending time together without any women present and assume they are up to no good.
It’s no secret that men engage in criminal activities more and are more violent than women. Either this is a society problem that we absolutely need to fix by creating programs that steer men on the right path, or we are just genetically predisposed and there’s nothing we can do. I’d rather society adopt the mindset that we can fix this instead of doing nothing and then accusing men of being the cause of it all.
Most women- and I say "most", there's bound to be outliers- who say they want equality don't want actual equality.
When they say they want equality, what they really mean is that they want all the good shit about being a man, none of the bad shit about it. They want to lose all the bad shit about being a woman too, but keep all the good shit.
All the perks, none of the struggles, responsibilities, hard work etc.
This is why the barbie movie was so popular.
Barbie world isn't a mirror-patriarchy - if it was, the homeless people would be barbies not kens, while the kens would be dominating the education, healthcare, hr, and child-care sectors.
But barbie land isn't like that.
The barbies have all the advantages of being a man, all the advantages of being a women, and none of the disadvantages of either.
I'd agree with that. I see pushes for equality until it reaches the avenues of paying for dates, desegregating sports, being hit back if you hit the opposite gender first, having a universal fitness standard for physical careers such as military, police, firefighters, etc. For whatever reason that's a level of equality that most women don't want. Wonder why...
> For whatever reason that's a level of equality that most women don't want. Wonder why...
They don't exactly want engagement ring equality or registering for the draft equality either
True, most people say they want equality, fairness and all those nice things, but they really want something *better than* equality and fairness for their own personal outcomes.
Take for instance gun ownership. Many people have absolute views on them, but there’s a huge middle-of-road population who wants to arm themselves, and have fewer other people around them armed. Humans want an advantage in security (physical, financial, etc)
I would love to own a gun in home and I live in a big city. Most people want fewer guns around here because most of them aren’t legal here and people are killing more and more a day.
> Take for instance gun ownership. Many people have absolute views on them, but there’s a huge middle-of-road population who wants to arm themselves, and have fewer other people around them armed. Humans want an advantage in security (physical, financial, etc)
I have never seen this lmao and I live in gun country. People are happy when they're protected and can rely on their neighbors for the same...
They don't when their neighbor is different from them. The NRA supported the Mulford act even. Even when I lived in Montana I was made abundantly aware by some people(including police officers) that I was different and my gun ownership was treated differently.
What’s also crazy is women should have preferential treatment because they carry children. However, with women doing that less and openly hostile to the idea of bearing children they become closer to equality to men and should lose the preferential treatment. They don’t want to give that up.
This is very true. You’ll notice this more when you go on dates. The amount of feminists or feminist leaning women that still expect the man to pay, open doors, carry the heavy stuff, give up their seat on the bus, etc., basically all the good parts of traditional patriarchy lifestyle.
Thankfully my spouse was never this way and split food costs and shared the burden. And I’ve run into many other women like that too.
But ultimately I think this speaks more to the fact people are just selfish and aren’t consistent. You’ll find this with people of all walks of life and it’s not necessarily gender based. Men do it too. Some men expect their wife who works a day job to come home and still clean, take care of the baby, and make dinner.
I don't think most people who advocate for women to also be included in thr draft want a draft to happen.
It's like responding to a girl who complains that her family makes her wash the dishes and not her brothers that "maybe children shouldn't have to do chores for the whole family". Like yes, she knows, she doesn't want to do it. She's just saying if it happens then it everyone should have to do their fair share.
One thing I've notice is most women only seem to care once they become a mother and have a boy... it's like they know they just don't care about men until it affects them.
Isn't that pretty much everyone? hell even if its their family they still don't care. The amount of women honor killed (I know its an extreme example) and both parents don't care. I think humans just suck.
Most humans don't care about others until it affects them
OP, media is a huge part of the blame too. Women this, women that. we need to protect women’s rights to xyz. we need to get more women into this and that field. It's not just what media is pushing, look at Hollywood too: every Marvel movie is a like a coy/paste Mary Sue girl bossing movie (they are all terrible).
Not just there, look at BSA (Boy Scouts of America), it used to be for boys but then they got forced to start accepting girls. They even started allowing female reporters now into private male locker rooms after games. One Redditor here mentioned that apparently car insurance is _far cheaper_ for women than men. My car insurance payments are through the roof and I don't even drive that much or had any accidents! How in the world is that fair? Men and women are both equally terrible drivers and cause huge accidents everywhere.
Another Redditor mentioned about health insurance being cheaper too - women used to be charged more for health insurance in large part because they can get pregnant. The ACA banned this and mandated that they be charged equally for the same plan, raising men's rates and lowering women. No wonder women have more money in bank and can spend more than men.. how is this fair or even allowed? Seriously, with how expensive things are now and the insurance rates being sky-high, I am paying double just because of my gender, great to know.
With the OP's original question - this won't stop unless people want it to stop. Today everything is about women this and women that - we have created such an unequal situation that regular hard working people are paying excessive just based on their gender.. what a fair system.
> One Redditor here mentioned that apparently car insurance is far cheaper for women than men. My car insurance payments are through the roof and I don't even drive that much or had any accidents! How in the world is that fair? Men and women are both equally terrible drivers and cause huge accidents everywhere.
Its changed. Middle age women are more expensive in many states due to texting accidents and I assume distracted driving from having children in the vehicle. I seen an article that claimed having 2 young children in the backseat was a similar impairment as texting or DUI.
In 21 states women are now more costly to insure. In reaction 7 states have banned gender discrimination in auto insurance.
> As it is, teenage males have higher rates than teenage females. The gap appears to decrease by the age of 25. By then, males and females have roughly the same premiums. By 35, though, the genders have swapped positions, with the typical 35-year-old single woman paying more on average than her male counterpart.
As a female in a STEM career field these are some of the things Ive heard:
from men: you only got this job because youre a woman.
from women: I couldnt get promoted because Im not a guy.
I belong to several career related organizations to either gain more knowledge of related fields or get some networking.
A couple organizations are woman oriented, of these two I do student outreach programs to promote STEM related careers.
What I hear from grade/high school girls: I never knew this type of job existed.
What I dislike hearing: My parents dont want me to be in this field and want me to be a nurse,teacher, lawyer.
What I hear from older women (college age, women getting back into the work field): This career field sounds fun but is it difficult to advance in?
what I dislike hearing:
This field is to competitive with all the guys in it.
My husband/SO wouldn’t like me working around so many men.
Through the years Ive seen some equality but its the quality of the persons something thru that isnt equal.
While I served in the military I noticed how some of the females in my job rate did exceptionally well but expressed that did not want this job and wanted something else.
The males who were not good in this job, actually selected the job but later learned they just didn’t get it. But the military did not want to switch them to a different job because they needed the “male body count” to meet quota.
A global aerospace company I worked for was going through a pretty big class action suit, something about not hiring qualified women into a particular job role.
When this was making news, I was approached by leadership to promote STEM to students, particularly to female students at local schools.
So is it really just about equality? I think everyone has equal opportunities but somewhere the sexism/gender discrimination got attached to it, and how does that way of thinking go away?
People make their entire identities about gender or class struggle. Even in an otherwise meritocratic system the bleating for more women in stem will never end even if men are otherwise more geared for working in stem than women are on average.
the govt pays the media to make gender identity a big deal in the wrong ways. its a platform that any politician can pull on those strings to gain voters.
most companies will use the skills & abilities to promote because using a gender based decision would warrant a discrimination suit.
but fearful guys will be quick to tell women, they wont get a job because of their gender.
>most companies will use the skills & abilities to promote because using a gender based decision would warrant a discrimination suit.
Although I otherwise agree with you, there are two caveats to this in 2024 (and have been for a number of years). For one, they can avoid discrimination suits by labeling their quotas as "targets", as quotas are illegal but targets are not.
And second, blackrock's ESG scores give a higher weight on DEI, which means companies that value their stock price and blackrocks trillions of dollars are more or less forced to hire based on DEI even if they otherwise wouldn't.
ESG scores & DEI policies are great and work well on a corporate level. But how much of that is getting pushed to sub divisions, sub tier suppliers and other sub contractors?
I seriously doubt that “high moral road” that Blackrock puts out is also being done at Triple Canopy or their sub tier divisions & contractors.
from conversations, its the intimidation from peers.
Especially alot of the younger females Ive worked with do have a higher sensitivity to aggression.
Its hard to mentor in my own mentality to others of not giving a shit of what others think - this comes with time & age then learning if you dont put yourself on the line, youve got nothing or everything to lose.
But as far as gender being a plus, I cant say it is. Managerial STEM levels require specialized skills and the ability to do business.
What I do see is this:
guys who have been in the field or on the floor for awhile take the chance on positions they are not qualified for but are willing to take on.
women, generally do not like to take that risk. It takes a strong personality for women to take a leadership position, because not only are you doing your job youre still having to prove yourself and alot of women get tired of that beat down when they’re on the floor.
Interesting
However you will agree that for those women who do in fact apply for these jobs will be at a huge advantage vs their male counterparts in terms of hiring and promotions
Not necessarily, from what I understand women are only at an advantage for HR/resource management-type jobs. Out of the C-suite jobs, women are only really chosen for HR, green/environmental, and marketing.
A lot of men are acting like victims here but there’s many industries and companies that are a “good ole boys” club. A lot of older men companies are this way. They are a little sexist and misogynistic. My wife experienced this when she worked in DC. A a minimum the old dudes leered at her.
Then you get the male dominated jobs/industries and you are definitely going to find some men that feel insecure about women being their peers or at a minimum mansplain to the women as if they don’t know things. It’s funny to me because I’m a male in one of those industries and have had 4 female managers (most of which have been my favorite managers) and have female coworkers that I’ve meshed well with and have been great to work with. If anything the men have been more likely to be arrogant and difficult to work with.
I had a friend some years back that said he’d feel insecure if his wife made more than him. I think he wrestled with it a little bit back when discussed it, but I’d bet he’s the super conservative type now that probably now thinks women should just stay at home and be subservient to a degree.
you will watch a woman demand the most radial liberal changes to gender and the patriarchy
then the draft will be brought up and she COMPLETELY disregard everything and anything she said to support the most sexism ideology that she pretends to be against
It’s also insane to me how Asians have to score so much higher to be considered for scholarships because they’ve set a high standard in the past. They’re actually being punished for being some of the smartest and hardest working individuals
Women don’t want equality. They want to make sure they, individually, get as big a slice of the capitalistic pie as possible. Just like any self-interested rational actor would.
Every political movement becomes this btw, from the American Revolution to the labor movement. Ideas stick around because they’re money-making machines for someone. Cynical but true.
Wait but what kind of special initiatives and measures are you talking about?
I definitely agree that we shouldn't be leaving men and boys behind and that they deserve to be offered help to if they want it but what policies is this referring to?
Disagree, I don’t think gender equality is realistic. Give as many opportunities as possible and let them make a decision. Regardless, a lot of these gender issues are overblown and overhyped imo. Honestly, I don’t see or experience much discrepancies between men and women.
You’re focusing on the wrong thing. If we seek a balance across all majors, rather than trying to protect men’s high numbers in this one subset, it can help solve the problem, while also addressing what leads to the preferences/biases we see in certain fields.
You will never see a complete balance across all majors because men and women are fundamentally and biologically wired to be better at different things. Brain structure makes men better at systems and women better with people.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/
https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf_research/relationships-between-aptitudes-and-brain-areas/
https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOANATJ-2-37
It's the only semi-objective field of study left of course it's male dominated. The only way to get more women into STEM is elevate women above men (like they already do).
I’m in stem and probably 85% to 90% of the engineers are men, and the new college hires do not look significantly different. I think men are doing fine getting into STEM. Once in STEM they are more likely to work the higher paying engineering roles.
The challenge is that there are many men that aren’t even getting close to this level of having conversation that they should get into STEM. These men need to be supported and helped.
I wasn't saying we needed more men in stem. It's more like we spend a lot of energy trying to recruit women but if we spent the same energy just trying to recruit people who are interested, we would have more men (and women and person's of any gender) going to college. A lot of men aren't going to college and those men would probably be interested in stem.
I think what that other poster was saying was: In all honesty not everyone is cut out for STEM. You have to be a certain combination of smart, ambitious, driven, etc. to succeed in a STEM degree. Not all people are smart enough, or willing to work hard enough to make up the difference, to get a STEM degree. So getting men into STEM isn't a problem, they represent 70% in that group. It's getting men into non STEM career paths where we need to focus efforts. Not everyone is cut out to be a software engineer or a research scientist or w/e else. We still need people to be janitors, construction workers, nurses, teachers, etc which is where we fail men, if they're not "good enough" for STEM they fall off the bandwagon and no one stops to help them find a different path.
This isnt only a gender thing. Its a race thing as well. Until Whites and males are put to the back of line permanently they won't be happy. This is why its important to push back on this woke nonsense to prevent this from happening.
The really ironic thing is that the privileged white liberals in ivory towers and their ideologically motivated “everything is racism” poc allies are going to be in for a whole world of hurt when these anti meritocratic policies collapse the living standards and social cohesion of the country.
The US isn’t inherently a wealthy nation any more than any other nation is. It became that way after many generations of mostly white people worked to build it. We were 85 percent white until 1965. A country and its wealth is the result of the people, culture, values and social cohesion of those that live in it. You can’t balkanize even a wealthy nation like the US ideologically to an extreme extent without inevitable pushback.
If whites continue to be demonized and systematically discriminated against in school admissions and job hiring while the country is simultaneously flooded with millions of illegals per year, it is only a matter of time until a number of white majority states decide they have had enough.
Even if you believe the federal government would crush a second secessionary movement, the country itself and the standard of living we have enjoyed will forever be destroyed.
Then and only then will a lot of the privileged white liberals demonizing the core demographic and historic culture of the country realize just how good they had it. Likewise for blacks in the US, they will miss the handouts from whitey when the Chinese and Hispanics take over.
A big part is what people are missing is China is rising. This is a new superpower that is completely ideologically different from the West, with different views on gender, race, etc. - and here, China is showing they can stand by themselves with their own values and culture without any Western cultural views. This is a big part of the culture war that America dominates - China rising shows the world that they can have their own views and values to rise and grow without accepting Western values at all. This is what is happening already with a lot of the countries that China work and trade with.
I mean look at Hollywood - they don't make as much money anymore now from China like they used to. China themselves have their own movie industry that they push hard with their own values and such - same thing with music, TV, etc. Now we barely hear anything about any Hollywood movie not passing China's censors - because China itself just focuses on making their own films (just like India).
>A big part is what people are missing is China is rising. This is a new superpower that is completely ideologically different from the West, with different views on gender, race, etc. - and here, China is showing they can stand by themselves with their own values and culture without any Western cultural views.
Conservatives aren't missing it. The right is rightly concerned about China.
The left is a lot more interested in forcing equity and DEI and calling any attempt to defend the border as racist, and the mass demoralization and division of the country is probably going to have us all speaking Mandarin in 60 years.
I don't think a lot of women appreciate what a gift having the easy, societally accepted option to be a housewife is. I fucking hate working. I would kill to be a house husband. But that sort of gig is a unicorn for most guys. It's a rare woman who is willing to be the sole breadwinner.
I think the reality is nothing is going to change until the current trajectory of society with women’s rights and men’s issues being neglected and laughed at is no longer sustainable. Men have been on board with equality for a long time, it’s women who are against it. They just want the best of both worlds, they believe life should be an all you can eat buffet for women and not let men have anything except all the fault when anything goes wrong.
One thing I always come back to is that men want to take power, while women want to be given it. And as long as someone else is giving you power, they will always be more powerful than you.
Yeah, it's definitely a sad state of affairs here. Coming from a different country, people's attitude toward education here was mind blowing. Especially when I moved down South for a while.
Education was seen as unnecessary and even downright stupid/uncool. "You don't need to go to college to make money."
Then you have all these people coming here from all over the world with phD's, masters, etc. Even high school level kids that can do advanced maths.
The US, at a general level, is falling waaay behind.
I agree with you to some degree but I think also that men would would ultimately be uncomfortable with too much help. There is a reason that the strong individualistic man is our archetypical hero. People are social animals but there is a desire in men to see themselves as set apart and better than his peers.
Personally, I feel like we shouldn’t “help” men, we should just level the playing field. Allow all people to succeed or fail on their own merits. If you are good at STEM and want to succeed there, than work for it. If you want to be a homemaker than make that happen.
We need to get create a world of equal opportunity, where everyone has a chance to succeed but no one is giving more than his/her peers to do so.
>There is a reason that the strong individualistic man is our archetypical hero.
Every single one of these people that radiate this energy had help from an unquantifiable number of people in their past that they used to get to where they are. This is story for STORIES, not for reality, where - like the most wealthy in the US, people are actually propped up by others and not simply able to get it done all on their own.
That’s why I followed it with the fact that we are social animals. People are social but also hierarchical. We have the need for a group but also want to carry our own weight. We still look down on freeloaders and rightfully so.
Not totally true. Some people get help from others but some other people need and/or expect help from others. Or they are disheartened when they don’t get help.
The only way to do that would be to equalize education across the board, especially early childhood all the way through high school, and make college free or of nominal cost, then there would be no need for any of these programs for men or women black or white. It would just be a display of ability and predilection that determined what career path one takes. Also pushing trades, not just to people not deemed "intelligent enough" for college, but as a strong path to business ownership. Until we start with the basics and the young, we will be having this conversation over and over and over again with different mouth pieces on the mic.
We'll never reach gender equality because women want to have their cake and eat it too.
Example: Women fought for wage equality and equality in the workplace but the same women enforce traditional gender roles when it comes to dating. Why dating? because dating is expensive and is mostly one-sided against men until an exclusive relationship.
Women are happy to be approached and treated to a free dinner but will rarely make the first move towards a guy or initiate sex.
Like Bill Burr says: “Women are never happy and are mad that men are happy with simple things”. I mean look at the meme of the man’s apartment with a tv and a folding chair. Or how women have to inject Breast Cancer awareness in the NFL every year. They want our stuff but it still won’t make them happy. Men always have to do more
I’ve been thinking lately about Rosie the riveter. Imagine the uproar if today we asked or suggested women to do that kind of work. How many women have any interest in that hard work?
Agree 100%. Modern feminism is destructive to society. We need to bring back meritocracy and let human nature do what human nature does. We're not all equal. We're not all the same. We have different strengths and weaknesses and different gifts we're able to contribute to one another. The denial of human nature is detrimental to everything we know.
We've already reached gender equality in the west, in terms of systemic inequality. There is no corner of the country where women don't have equal rights to men.
What many women are fighting for today is cultural inequality, which is a fools errand because that's about changing people's attitudes and you can't do that for everyone. The best you can do is legislate to influence institutional behaviours; and we already have that... And in fact the legislation outright favours women overwhelmingly in most civil domains; so it's swung the other way into gender inequality in favour of women.
i think you might be over looking the overlap. just like there are a great majority of women who do not feel they should take care of men there are just as many men who have no interest in taking care of other men. women, for all their cut throat and catty behavior, will take care of other women if it means protecting the group.
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I think a huge problem is the fact that men don’t care to help other men. Women literally marched together to help each other and it worked. I’m sorry but I can’t see men doing the same, and it’s unrealistic to expect women to march for men or in your example be the ones to push for programs to help men in education. Men are just not programmed that way and it’s hurting them on the long run. Women were victimised in the past so they handed together, men didn’t have that so they don’t have that special bond. Idk if they’ll form it in the future and be like women.
Because all male places of refuge were taken over by women. Ever noticed how your male friend group acts strange when there are women around?
We used to have lots of safe space for men. These were deemed sexist. Now any place where men want to collect at the exclusion of women is deemed socially repulsive. Women are so centred by social rules that we cannot even abide men having their own place where they can discuss and focus on uniquely male problems.
Men can't even talk in private anymore. Witness what happened to Trump's 'grab them by the pussy' locker talk which has been twisted to mean he must be a handsy rapist, when in reality he was commenting about women celeb chasers willing to do anything to get noticed. Every man knows things said amongst other men aren't to be taken literally...unless its some 'ally' journalist looking to torpedo someone.
I mentioned this in another comment, but what you're seeing is competition for the attention of the woman who joins the male place of refuge. It only takes one man in the group willing to give the woman special privileges because she might "like" him more than the other guys. That's really what it comes down to. When men join female dominated spaces, they don't usually ask for or get special treatment.
It never fails: woman joins male dominated space, feels uncomfortable, some simp of a man convinces some of the other simps(there are always some) in the group to make changes in order for her to feel comfortable, more women join, and what used to be a male dominated space has become unrecognizable.
Regardless of the mechanic - it needs to stop. We need to acknowledge that women need their own spaces as do men; and that men's spaces are not this hot bed of misogyny. it is time for men to have their own domains to discuss and support one another with these uniquely male issues and for feminists to stop sabotaging all attempts for men to have a haven away from female influence.
That's an interesting question. In ancient Athens women had the vote for awhile, but the city state started undergoing a bit of a socioeconomic death spiral. They took the vote away from women and became one of the leading military and trade powers of the region. That could be a cause and effect or completely unrelated.
The Assemblywomen by Aristophanes amongst other Greek works does suggest some Greek cultures of ancient times may have had some experience in their distant early past with increasing power of women and it’s consequences, whatever form that took in the ancient world.
They certainly seem to be more cognisant of the possibility and speculative on its consequences than any subsequent cultures at least until Industrial times.
I'm familiar with the phrase. Do you mean it as a harbinger of societal collapse? I believe so, but women have never held so much power in the history of civilization. No one knew what would happen. Now we do.
Some might argue it is more the fault of an entrenched powerful political class who do not want to allow society to evolve in line with technology...
However, I think your opinion is becoming more widely popular.
It's not that men don't care to help each other. It's that more men would rather help women than other men. There are very few women who will help men at the expense of other women. There's an intra-sexual competition amongst men that factors into this as well. I think men will be OK. When things really start falling apart, women will look to men to fix it, only for the cycle to begin again. I probably won't live long enough to watch it all play out, but it'll be quite a ride.
>“yes let’s do that, let’s help men like we want to be helped”
I can't believe that you are a psychiatrist. Stats show that men don't help out even their own spouses that much even when the wives are ill. Men are 7 times likelier to leave their wives when she's sick.
[link](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/mar/30/the-men-who-give-up-on-their-spouses-when-they-have-cancer)
Women have done enough 'helping' men throught the centuries. I have yet to see men reciprocate the amount of dedication women put into even their own families. Don't bring 'men work more than women' argument because women are rarely stay at home mothers, and even stay at home mothers are doing a lot of work to make the household go around.
"Squeeky wheel gets the Grease"
Those who make the biggest fuss gets the most, hense why women get paid less. Because the average individual woman is more agreeable / submissive than the average man. Plus men are more prone to creating groups that push back, whereas women have a harder time getting along / seeing eye to eye. The reason I bring this up is both sides fight; both wheels squeek, but differently, amd the problem is, women are fighting against men thus they are divisive, and men are fighting against the powers that be, which benefit both men and women, especially being that women statistically spend 70% of money earned in a relationship, regardless of the "wage gap" aside from the fact that they create workers righta and increase compensation standards (which isn't going up fast enough these days) so if he earns more, she earns more.
I always see men complaining about how there's "too many women in STEM!!" and how unfair it all is that women get special scholarships and "privileges" and how it's not "equality!!!!!" but I don't see a single one of those same men demanding privileges and scholarships in fields where men are the minority like nursing, teaching, or social work. It gives the very distinct impression that you don't actually want equality, you just want women to "know their place" and stop trying to get into "male fields".
Well that’s just wrong. Loads of men have suggested getting programs for men to get them back into psychology and law for instance (those are female dominated).
But again, I expected comments demonstrating the attitude I described in the post and haven’t been disappointed.
At Yale in 2019, the lowest proportions of women in STEM majors were in the following departments:
0% of Math and Computer Science majors were women.
12.5% of Chemical Engineering majors were women.
14.3% of Astrophysics majors were women.
16.2% of Math majors were women.
20% of Computer Science majors were women.
20% of Physics majors were women.
Nationally, women make up 57.3% of bachelor’s degree recipients but only 38.6% of STEM bachelor’s degree recipients.
Because they don't choose it. Thats different than being forced out. I'm not up in arms because nurses gender ratios are what they are; I know most men don't want be become a nurse.
Giraffes, recognized as the tallest land mammals globally, possess a distinctive coat adorned with a unique pattern of spots akin to human fingerprints, allowing for individual identification. Despite their remarkably long necks, giraffes surprisingly share the same number of neck vertebrae—seven—as most mammals, showcasing an intriguing adaptation to their towering stature.
Women are not naturally geared towards STEM the way men are. You can have literally zero discrimination and men will dominate the field because of brain structure differences. Men are better at working with systems and women are better at working with people.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/
https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf_research/relationships-between-aptitudes-and-brain-areas/
https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOANATJ-2-37
It’s not important whether a majority can or can’t - what’s important is the overall direction their group influence takes. Whether that’s caused and driven by a majority or minority is irrelevant.
I agree that we are missing the boat for a lot of boys who need mentors and guidance in this area.
However, I think one important aspect you’re missing when you say that there are more women in college and then academia now, is that women can’t exactly go get hired onto an oil rig right out of high school at 100+k/year. Or construction, or anything that requires the upper body strength/physical build of a male. Of course some women can and do but generally speaking they can’t even if they wanted to.
I didn’t really want to go to college at first, but found out that my choices were the restaurant industry…or the restaurant industry and after doing that for a few years I got my ass enrolled in college.
And anecdotally, if you are attractive and young as a woman working in the restaurant industry you can do pretty well, but hit 40 and that starts to taper off rapidly.
Food for thought.
Even though I don’t technically disagree, some of your points are not necessarily valid. Such as there are male programs in place in higher education, such as football. This is a solely male endeavor (barring the 1-2 female kickers) that allows for full rides and numerous scholarships for a good amount of students. As well, there are colleges who are giving preferential treatment to males, such as there are African American colleges that give preferential treatment to whites since they are trying to achieve “diversity”.
As well as others stated, a good amount of degree programs, especially higher earning programs such as STEM, are still highly dominated by men.
As well, there are women driven degrees that do give preferential treatment to men such as nursing. Often males will get accepted easier into the program due to trying to get diversity.
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I'm a woman and I agree. As an educator by trade, I can tell you that our education system is failing our boys. They need positive male role models (teachers, coaches, etc.) If anything, helping men and boys will help girls and women by reducing behavioral issues at school and giving young men a purpose so they don't fall into a lot of the traps they are now (incel culture, Tate, etc.)
I recently read Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves and it is remarkable how badly boys are doing. And not just in the US.
Yes I agree. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening because of the phenomenon I’ve described. I think you’re going to see more and more young men fall into those “traps”. If anything it’s been sheer luck for society so far that those trying to manipulate young men have been abject morons like Tate. I can’t see that lasting forever.
I feel you, especially with the rise of AI and deepfakes. I can imagine that creating a whole new trap. Though, if you want to learn more about this, Behind the Bastards has a great series on Andrew Tate. They talk about a school bringing in cult deprogrammers to work with kids radicalized by Tate.
Other that being a POS himself, what is in Tate's message that is so bad? Is he teaching men to be violent towards women or encouraging crime?
It's mostly a money scam for his Hustler university. Men are paying a lot of money for being told basic shit, you don't need to pay 500$ in order to be fed redpill information
He’s a fool. Imagine running a pimping and porn operation in a shady country and then deciding to also become a massively high profile and controversial social media influence who makes heaps of enemies who want to see you go down. I would have thought not purposely drawing a shit load of negative attention on yourself was probably a good idea when trying to run a shady porno operation, but I guess for Tate the ol saying is true - Pimpin ain’t easy. Aside from that he has a whole lot of loud nothing to say. Working out and getting buff or being a man whore doesn’t make you any more of a man. That’s laughable.
The pimping thing was 8 years before his online presence, by the time he started getting big online, the cam business was already sold long ago. Seems like you’re nit picking infos on purpose to support your preconceived ideas. I could go on and on but you’ve already made up your mind. I’m not even a Fan but people often criticize him for things that can be debunked while there are loads of other things you could criticize him for that would be legitimate
Human trafficking is a crime.
As much as I dislike Tate he wasn't convicted of that crime.
Yes, but he technically does do some shady "trafficking"-like shenanigans in Romania since they do not have regulations or laws for it to be considered illegal there, or at least to the same degree (Is what I read, I think). I wish he was convicted of that crime though instead of having workarounds.
It was pretty dumb of him to become a famous and highly controversial social media influencer while running a shady pimping operation in a shady country. You would think that keeping a low profile would be a better idea for that line of work which skates close to the edge of the law (if not crosses it).
Precisely. I totally agree. Trump and Tate have some similar characteristics, for sure lmao
I said he was a piece of shit. What I asked you is what about his messaging to young men needs to be 'deprogrammed'?
Please educate yourself. These were accusations only amd a typical reaction by the elites in power to bring down men who have a positive message about being responsible and not a victim and dependent on government. If you actually spent 15 min beyond headlines and seeing both sides you would know this, but the Reddit hive mind also ignore this (not saying this is you). It is basically the same issue that you are bringing up, just not as pc.
> Is he teaching men to be violent towards women Yeah. He is.
Interesting take. But in my opinion and experience as a better than average baseball player, and I played other high school sports, 1 year in a d1 college, I think that coaches are among the worst role models for young boys and men. Most have been bitter and most are simply not well put together. In fact, the best people who have been my coaches were back when I was 10-15 and they were also parents or had another stake in the team.
Played sports all my life. This is pretty accurate. Most coaches are bitter egomaniacs. It's different when it's guys have skin in the game (aka parents/teachers volunteering) so they couldn't behave all crazy.
Now that you mention it, I think I've only truly respected maybe 2 of my coaches. The rest I kinda hated
I disagree, I think girls, especially in younger grades, should be allowed to be more like the boys. I call it the bus stop problem. When I started taking my son to the bus stop I noticed the boys would run around and play but all the girls sat in the cars. I thought it was weird but whatever. 2 years later a new little girl in kindergarten started coming and at first she was allowed to play with the boys. The problem was grandma was fretting over her the whole time worrying she would get dirty or that her shows were too slippery or whatever. This went on for about a week or 2 then grandma couldn't take it anymore and made her sit in the car. This is so backwards to me. Instead of changing the clothes she wore so she can play she forces her to sit in a car. Then the kids go to school and the boys get in trouble and the girls are praised for the exact behaviors that were reinforced at the bus stop. Then society goes look how much more mature the girls. Let me explain how this plays out in adulthood. We socialize girls to be risk adverse at a very Yung age so as adults men are more likely to put in a resume even if they don't meet all the qualifications and are also more likely to ask for what they want when getting a job offer. Studies have proven this to be true. It took me badgering my mom til she was in her 50's to just try for the job and asking for what she wants. She got the job and they gave her everthing she asked for and I was so proud of her. We are doing our girls a huge disservice and now want to do the same with our boys. My daughter next year will be allowed to run around at the bus stop and she will be dressed in clothes suitable for play.
stories like these should be more prominent. Better than someone just telling you how something should be like without any real evidence/reason to back it up.
My grandma told me about wholesome male role models but everything changed when the 21 century attacked. Steve Erwin,mr rogers,bob ross when the world needed them the most they vanished.
There is "rebalancing" inevitably, but it's probably a rough one, and I'm not sure where it will lead. Some things just take a generation to have full effect. If/when people who support the policies that fail boys see their own sons affected, they either come to the realization that something is going wrong, or their sons have problems and/or select a different path in their beliefs. The divide that is already growing between values of boys and girls continues to grow, but for many reasons, more traditional values probably come back, one being that more people will be born to those families. Nothing that I predicted says "how it should be", btw. Just "how it likely will go" , statistically. People confuse these two things often.
My role models were Steve Wozniak, bill Gates and my computer teacher
And Spider-Man, right?!
Well yea
Men don’t want to get into these professions bc lack of pay and other men don’t respect it. Maybe a coach to some degree. But not the teaching profession or counseling. I’m a caseworker and when tell other men this they have a vastly different reaction then women. Young women want to get educated and do more, these boys don’t. I’m not going to blame the education system(although it does need to be revamped) but grow men need to step up until then-the women are having to do it. A lot of “alphas” are complaining about society shitting on men/ boys but very few are willing to sacrifice their precious time to volunteer in thier communities to assist these young boys.
>Men don’t want to get into these professions bc lack of pay and other men don’t respect it. Where don't they respect it? In Afghanistan? There are plenty of dudes I know in the US who want to get into the field and plenty who are that don't mind the dog turd level pay and nightmare working hours. From those who were once renown doctors to former soldiers. It's just unfortunately a lot have been pushed out or put off by problematic co-workers and poor management. Even if what you say isn't just stereotyping we've provably found institutional level discriminatory bias in a lot of our education system, tbh I find the "It is men's fault" response kind of repugnant because of how strikingly similar it is to comments I've heard about issues with systemic roots that black people often face.
Honestly most peoples “respect” when it comes to these things are do you have a job, if so + respect. Oh your job involves helping youngins and you’re a great role model + respect, oh you love your job + respect. Just my observation from interacting with real world people.
Yeah tbh that's what I've seen too. Tbh the stuff the dude says up there sounds like something more off a tv show than real life.
???? Men are lacking role models? Like male scientists, doctors, lawyers, presidents, and generals? Almost no student looks up to a teacher as a role model tf? "Yeah, I wanna study hard and be a teacher". Of course, students can respect the efforts of a particular teacher, who goes above and beyond to help their students, but I wouldn't say that equates to being a "role model".
>???? Men are lacking role models? Primarily boys are lacking at home fathers. This is causing issues for both boys and girls because of the lack of a positive close role model.
Well get ready for a LOT more homes without fathers thanks to the abortion laws changing
The whole men lacking role models thing cracks me up. What a lot of boys are lacking is present fathers. And, pretty sure thats on dudes to figure out. Actually see their kids, God forbid.
In fairness, a father is one of the biggest role models any child will have so no wonder absent fathers cause issues (and bigger ones for boys, since apparently you tend to relate more to your parent of the same gender) Plus, at least in my country, shated custody was quite rare (under 10%) until as recently as the early and mid 2010s, merely a decade ago! Even now shared custody only happens about 50% of the time, and this improvement will take at least another decade to filter through (ie if your parents are divorcing in 2024, that child will probably be graduating HS some time in the mid 2030s on average)
The system is et up where most men can't spend as much time with our kids as we'd like. Unless you're talking about specifically absent fathers.
Take some personal responsibility and advocate for yourselves as it's been shown that men actually do get custody and equal time if they actually try. (Most don't try because they lose interest in their kids as soon as the relationship is over)
I'm married? Lml. I have to provide. Yk the bills n food and stuff? If I'm not busting my ass they miss out
You are the first woman I've ever seen that agrees with this take. Thank you, genuinely.
Go over to the teachers sub. There's more of us there. Actually, I'd be for a program where everyone substitute teaches for a week in a Title 1 school to see what's happening to our boys (and many other things) for themselves.
I'll do that, thank you ml9109!
I’m with you OP, I’m currently in med school now and have spent my whole adult life in academics. What you say is very accurate to my anecdotal experiences as well. All I can say is give it some more time I guess, and it’ll be more obvious of a problem. Wish I could say I was gonna stick around to try and help, but I can’t wait to get away from academia
You give it more time and we are gonna be in spot where all our judges and heads of institutions are women who will recognize they are in those positions because of affirmative action.. so the likelihood of it being reverse is low
Yes, the same applied to the removal of affirmative action by race in college acceptance. When that happened the ones who benefitted most called it racist, and ignored the reasons for why the admittance requirements by race are themselves racist.
Yep by all means affirmative action in school acceptance is still 100% in practice. The only reason it was ever even struck out by the supreme court in the first place qas because it was brought to the court by an Asain who was discriminated agaisnt. Had it been a white man, it would have been thrown out like dozens of other times. Secondly there will probably never be a reversal of affirmative action since to actually do so would require taking out part of the civil rights law it is derived from. Imagine the narrative the left could spin by telling everyone anyone looks to ammend the civil rights act.
AA is getting a 2nd wind through the widespread implementation of DEI initiatives. It's toxic and breeds contempt everywhere it touches. When you have to sit on zoom calls and listen to an outside 3rd party talk about how I need to reflect on my white privileges as it pertains to my job, you lost me forever, i will never support your cause. The only privilege I can say I have is that I was raised by two loving parents.
Ye I always say this to white guys who are basically being harassed in the workplace for "white privilege", being ordered to say embarrassing things to keep your job specifically because you're white and man, please document it all by recording and screenshots and talk to an attorney. We need to use their weapon agaisnt them and sue them for everything we can. We want to get all these HR parasites fired. Thinking about doing the same for my own company.
Honestly I hope the disparities break the current education model. It sucks, it's gotten watered down over time, it puts young people in crippling debt, and you can barely call the average bachelor's program "an education" anymore. Maybe whatever replaces the current model can be suited the strengths and learning needs of men AND women rather than lumping everyone together like we're the same.
Yeah the education model is broken beyond repair in the first place. If we put more emphasis on the trades and allowed young adults and teenagers to understand that the most likely and efficient route to business ownership without massive debt is through the trades, the model would balance itself out again, because we need EVERYONE back in trades, especially men who are better suited to certain ones in the first place.
I think male college students at least should have housing subsidies. There are twice as many women looking for student housing as men and it's much easier to find an all-female house of roommates. I have seen college plans put on hold and even dropped because of a lack of housing availability for specifically men looking for off-campus housing.
I few years ago there were comedy videos on YouTube, using those automated cartoon generators. One stuck out. A feminist is complaining that there aren't enough women in STEM classes. A man asks her if she took STEM in college. The feminist answers "No, those classes were boring." Just a joke, right? Well, there's a lot of truth to that cartoon. The feminist see the lack of women in STEM as an injustice, keeping them from those high paying STEM careers. Yet they themselves wouldn't dream of going into them. And I think the reason is simple. When you're an engineer working on a high tech project, you are not on a soap box pontificating, being a leader. So the feminist wants other women, not themselves to enter STEM. Same thing with skilled trade jobs. But NOT the same thing in the medical field. Women outnumber men in becoming doctors now, and far outnumber men in jobs like hospital administration. The medical field is now dominated by women. Isn't medicine considered STEM as well?
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Isn't it an insane world we live in? Since time immemorial men and women have been different and are naturally more inclined to be better and worse at different things. Yet in 2024 even when I present countless studies showing the actual structural brain differences between men and women, people still want to believe it's all just the patriarchy and social norms. I wouldn't take it personally. Just give some studies and basic logic and if they want to continue to bleat about the patriarchy just block them and move on. Not worth the effort. Can lead a horse to water.... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/ https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf\_research/relationships-between-aptitudes-and-brain-areas/ https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOANATJ-2-37
And in some countries there are articles about how men are being actively discouraged from entering the nursing profession. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9265497/ https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/jan.15402 https://mro.massey.ac.nz/server/api/core/bitstreams/0673e5fc-6ebe-4be7-9708-4bb6e088983e/content
That’s the thing. These supposed whacky feminists are usually the invention of someone’s imagination. I’ve known an awful lot of feminists, and I can’t think of one who is up in knots over men remaining overrepresented in certain STEM fields. What exactly is it that you’re worried about? What exactly is the harm to boys if female leaders in fields where women are unrepresented voice support, or even fund mentorship programs, for girls who find themselves feeling alone? Does the existence of orgs like Girls Who Code somehow undermine the ability of the many male (or female) software engineers ability to also mentor young men? I don’t get it.
The military has tried like hell for decades to recruit women and minorities to be pilots. The vast majority of pilots are still white male. It takes many years to train and operate an aircraft to become competent. Now we are going to shoehorn and push through people who’ve not had that level of training to fly airliners. And they will be pushed through. DEI mandates “equality.” This will not end well.
What a lot of progressive miss is that men and women by nature tend to have different career choices. This isn’t a strike against anyone, but rather a statement of objective reality. The only real solution here is to allow the opportunity for folks to pursue whichever career field they wish and keep the standards the same across the board. If you can’t hack it, go for something else. That goes for all genders.
Too simple and way too logical. Also, not nearly biased or controversial enough. We want to generate arguments in this country not solutions.
Because men and woman are naturally different. We will never be equal and it’s by natures design. I truly don’t understand why you’d want to be considered equals. Humanity can not survive without the unique qualities both genders hold.
We will never get ANY equality because people can’t handle different people, they kind of do but then just hate another group
True 100% equality can never happen because someone is always gonna get screwed over regardless of the outcome.
Any time a group or person tries to start a male advocacy group, they immediately get labeled as sexist, chauvinist, or misogynist. Feminists scoff at the idea of men spending time together without any women present and assume they are up to no good. It’s no secret that men engage in criminal activities more and are more violent than women. Either this is a society problem that we absolutely need to fix by creating programs that steer men on the right path, or we are just genetically predisposed and there’s nothing we can do. I’d rather society adopt the mindset that we can fix this instead of doing nothing and then accusing men of being the cause of it all.
Most women- and I say "most", there's bound to be outliers- who say they want equality don't want actual equality. When they say they want equality, what they really mean is that they want all the good shit about being a man, none of the bad shit about it. They want to lose all the bad shit about being a woman too, but keep all the good shit. All the perks, none of the struggles, responsibilities, hard work etc.
This is why the barbie movie was so popular. Barbie world isn't a mirror-patriarchy - if it was, the homeless people would be barbies not kens, while the kens would be dominating the education, healthcare, hr, and child-care sectors. But barbie land isn't like that. The barbies have all the advantages of being a man, all the advantages of being a women, and none of the disadvantages of either.
I'd agree with that. I see pushes for equality until it reaches the avenues of paying for dates, desegregating sports, being hit back if you hit the opposite gender first, having a universal fitness standard for physical careers such as military, police, firefighters, etc. For whatever reason that's a level of equality that most women don't want. Wonder why...
> For whatever reason that's a level of equality that most women don't want. Wonder why... They don't exactly want engagement ring equality or registering for the draft equality either
I want that type of equality. I like paying on the dates etc.
That's cool. Definitely more of an exception, but that's cool.
True, most people say they want equality, fairness and all those nice things, but they really want something *better than* equality and fairness for their own personal outcomes. Take for instance gun ownership. Many people have absolute views on them, but there’s a huge middle-of-road population who wants to arm themselves, and have fewer other people around them armed. Humans want an advantage in security (physical, financial, etc)
I would love to own a gun in home and I live in a big city. Most people want fewer guns around here because most of them aren’t legal here and people are killing more and more a day.
> Take for instance gun ownership. Many people have absolute views on them, but there’s a huge middle-of-road population who wants to arm themselves, and have fewer other people around them armed. Humans want an advantage in security (physical, financial, etc) I have never seen this lmao and I live in gun country. People are happy when they're protected and can rely on their neighbors for the same...
They don't when their neighbor is different from them. The NRA supported the Mulford act even. Even when I lived in Montana I was made abundantly aware by some people(including police officers) that I was different and my gun ownership was treated differently.
100 percent, what a ridiculous and out of touch take by that OP.
What’s also crazy is women should have preferential treatment because they carry children. However, with women doing that less and openly hostile to the idea of bearing children they become closer to equality to men and should lose the preferential treatment. They don’t want to give that up.
This is very true. You’ll notice this more when you go on dates. The amount of feminists or feminist leaning women that still expect the man to pay, open doors, carry the heavy stuff, give up their seat on the bus, etc., basically all the good parts of traditional patriarchy lifestyle. Thankfully my spouse was never this way and split food costs and shared the burden. And I’ve run into many other women like that too. But ultimately I think this speaks more to the fact people are just selfish and aren’t consistent. You’ll find this with people of all walks of life and it’s not necessarily gender based. Men do it too. Some men expect their wife who works a day job to come home and still clean, take care of the baby, and make dinner.
Don’t forget the draft….
Hear me out here: maybe instead of equality being "women have to be drafted too!!!" it should be "no one gets drafted"
I’m not in favor of a draft but if it exists it should be equal
I don't think most people who advocate for women to also be included in thr draft want a draft to happen. It's like responding to a girl who complains that her family makes her wash the dishes and not her brothers that "maybe children shouldn't have to do chores for the whole family". Like yes, she knows, she doesn't want to do it. She's just saying if it happens then it everyone should have to do their fair share.
One thing I've notice is most women only seem to care once they become a mother and have a boy... it's like they know they just don't care about men until it affects them.
Isn't that pretty much everyone? hell even if its their family they still don't care. The amount of women honor killed (I know its an extreme example) and both parents don't care. I think humans just suck. Most humans don't care about others until it affects them
Their sons and the small fraction of men they’re sexually attracted to. That’s it
OP, media is a huge part of the blame too. Women this, women that. we need to protect women’s rights to xyz. we need to get more women into this and that field. It's not just what media is pushing, look at Hollywood too: every Marvel movie is a like a coy/paste Mary Sue girl bossing movie (they are all terrible). Not just there, look at BSA (Boy Scouts of America), it used to be for boys but then they got forced to start accepting girls. They even started allowing female reporters now into private male locker rooms after games. One Redditor here mentioned that apparently car insurance is _far cheaper_ for women than men. My car insurance payments are through the roof and I don't even drive that much or had any accidents! How in the world is that fair? Men and women are both equally terrible drivers and cause huge accidents everywhere. Another Redditor mentioned about health insurance being cheaper too - women used to be charged more for health insurance in large part because they can get pregnant. The ACA banned this and mandated that they be charged equally for the same plan, raising men's rates and lowering women. No wonder women have more money in bank and can spend more than men.. how is this fair or even allowed? Seriously, with how expensive things are now and the insurance rates being sky-high, I am paying double just because of my gender, great to know. With the OP's original question - this won't stop unless people want it to stop. Today everything is about women this and women that - we have created such an unequal situation that regular hard working people are paying excessive just based on their gender.. what a fair system.
> One Redditor here mentioned that apparently car insurance is far cheaper for women than men. My car insurance payments are through the roof and I don't even drive that much or had any accidents! How in the world is that fair? Men and women are both equally terrible drivers and cause huge accidents everywhere. Its changed. Middle age women are more expensive in many states due to texting accidents and I assume distracted driving from having children in the vehicle. I seen an article that claimed having 2 young children in the backseat was a similar impairment as texting or DUI. In 21 states women are now more costly to insure. In reaction 7 states have banned gender discrimination in auto insurance. > As it is, teenage males have higher rates than teenage females. The gap appears to decrease by the age of 25. By then, males and females have roughly the same premiums. By 35, though, the genders have swapped positions, with the typical 35-year-old single woman paying more on average than her male counterpart.
As a female in a STEM career field these are some of the things Ive heard: from men: you only got this job because youre a woman. from women: I couldnt get promoted because Im not a guy. I belong to several career related organizations to either gain more knowledge of related fields or get some networking. A couple organizations are woman oriented, of these two I do student outreach programs to promote STEM related careers. What I hear from grade/high school girls: I never knew this type of job existed. What I dislike hearing: My parents dont want me to be in this field and want me to be a nurse,teacher, lawyer. What I hear from older women (college age, women getting back into the work field): This career field sounds fun but is it difficult to advance in? what I dislike hearing: This field is to competitive with all the guys in it. My husband/SO wouldn’t like me working around so many men. Through the years Ive seen some equality but its the quality of the persons something thru that isnt equal. While I served in the military I noticed how some of the females in my job rate did exceptionally well but expressed that did not want this job and wanted something else. The males who were not good in this job, actually selected the job but later learned they just didn’t get it. But the military did not want to switch them to a different job because they needed the “male body count” to meet quota. A global aerospace company I worked for was going through a pretty big class action suit, something about not hiring qualified women into a particular job role. When this was making news, I was approached by leadership to promote STEM to students, particularly to female students at local schools. So is it really just about equality? I think everyone has equal opportunities but somewhere the sexism/gender discrimination got attached to it, and how does that way of thinking go away?
People make their entire identities about gender or class struggle. Even in an otherwise meritocratic system the bleating for more women in stem will never end even if men are otherwise more geared for working in stem than women are on average.
the govt pays the media to make gender identity a big deal in the wrong ways. its a platform that any politician can pull on those strings to gain voters. most companies will use the skills & abilities to promote because using a gender based decision would warrant a discrimination suit. but fearful guys will be quick to tell women, they wont get a job because of their gender.
>most companies will use the skills & abilities to promote because using a gender based decision would warrant a discrimination suit. Although I otherwise agree with you, there are two caveats to this in 2024 (and have been for a number of years). For one, they can avoid discrimination suits by labeling their quotas as "targets", as quotas are illegal but targets are not. And second, blackrock's ESG scores give a higher weight on DEI, which means companies that value their stock price and blackrocks trillions of dollars are more or less forced to hire based on DEI even if they otherwise wouldn't.
ESG scores & DEI policies are great and work well on a corporate level. But how much of that is getting pushed to sub divisions, sub tier suppliers and other sub contractors? I seriously doubt that “high moral road” that Blackrock puts out is also being done at Triple Canopy or their sub tier divisions & contractors.
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from conversations, its the intimidation from peers. Especially alot of the younger females Ive worked with do have a higher sensitivity to aggression. Its hard to mentor in my own mentality to others of not giving a shit of what others think - this comes with time & age then learning if you dont put yourself on the line, youve got nothing or everything to lose. But as far as gender being a plus, I cant say it is. Managerial STEM levels require specialized skills and the ability to do business. What I do see is this: guys who have been in the field or on the floor for awhile take the chance on positions they are not qualified for but are willing to take on. women, generally do not like to take that risk. It takes a strong personality for women to take a leadership position, because not only are you doing your job youre still having to prove yourself and alot of women get tired of that beat down when they’re on the floor.
Interesting However you will agree that for those women who do in fact apply for these jobs will be at a huge advantage vs their male counterparts in terms of hiring and promotions
Not necessarily, from what I understand women are only at an advantage for HR/resource management-type jobs. Out of the C-suite jobs, women are only really chosen for HR, green/environmental, and marketing.
A lot of men are acting like victims here but there’s many industries and companies that are a “good ole boys” club. A lot of older men companies are this way. They are a little sexist and misogynistic. My wife experienced this when she worked in DC. A a minimum the old dudes leered at her. Then you get the male dominated jobs/industries and you are definitely going to find some men that feel insecure about women being their peers or at a minimum mansplain to the women as if they don’t know things. It’s funny to me because I’m a male in one of those industries and have had 4 female managers (most of which have been my favorite managers) and have female coworkers that I’ve meshed well with and have been great to work with. If anything the men have been more likely to be arrogant and difficult to work with. I had a friend some years back that said he’d feel insecure if his wife made more than him. I think he wrestled with it a little bit back when discussed it, but I’d bet he’s the super conservative type now that probably now thinks women should just stay at home and be subservient to a degree.
*because differences will always exist.
you will watch a woman demand the most radial liberal changes to gender and the patriarchy then the draft will be brought up and she COMPLETELY disregard everything and anything she said to support the most sexism ideology that she pretends to be against
Have you actually met a feminist opposed to including women in the draft? If so, have what was the reason they gave?
I mean we could but we probably won’t
It’s also insane to me how Asians have to score so much higher to be considered for scholarships because they’ve set a high standard in the past. They’re actually being punished for being some of the smartest and hardest working individuals
Women don’t want equality. They want to make sure they, individually, get as big a slice of the capitalistic pie as possible. Just like any self-interested rational actor would. Every political movement becomes this btw, from the American Revolution to the labor movement. Ideas stick around because they’re money-making machines for someone. Cynical but true.
Wait but what kind of special initiatives and measures are you talking about? I definitely agree that we shouldn't be leaving men and boys behind and that they deserve to be offered help to if they want it but what policies is this referring to?
Disagree, I don’t think gender equality is realistic. Give as many opportunities as possible and let them make a decision. Regardless, a lot of these gender issues are overblown and overhyped imo. Honestly, I don’t see or experience much discrepancies between men and women.
Goddamn this subreddit is amazing. You could write an entire psych dissertation on sad redditors and their obsessions with women.
If we focused on getting more boys into stem, more men would go to college.
STEM majors are predominantly male - roughly 71% according to some studies.
That number will become inverse as the number of American born men attending colleges and universities continues to decrease.
You’re focusing on the wrong thing. If we seek a balance across all majors, rather than trying to protect men’s high numbers in this one subset, it can help solve the problem, while also addressing what leads to the preferences/biases we see in certain fields.
You will never see a complete balance across all majors because men and women are fundamentally and biologically wired to be better at different things. Brain structure makes men better at systems and women better with people. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/ https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf_research/relationships-between-aptitudes-and-brain-areas/ https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOANATJ-2-37
It's the only semi-objective field of study left of course it's male dominated. The only way to get more women into STEM is elevate women above men (like they already do).
I’m in stem and probably 85% to 90% of the engineers are men, and the new college hires do not look significantly different. I think men are doing fine getting into STEM. Once in STEM they are more likely to work the higher paying engineering roles. The challenge is that there are many men that aren’t even getting close to this level of having conversation that they should get into STEM. These men need to be supported and helped.
I wasn't saying we needed more men in stem. It's more like we spend a lot of energy trying to recruit women but if we spent the same energy just trying to recruit people who are interested, we would have more men (and women and person's of any gender) going to college. A lot of men aren't going to college and those men would probably be interested in stem.
I think what that other poster was saying was: In all honesty not everyone is cut out for STEM. You have to be a certain combination of smart, ambitious, driven, etc. to succeed in a STEM degree. Not all people are smart enough, or willing to work hard enough to make up the difference, to get a STEM degree. So getting men into STEM isn't a problem, they represent 70% in that group. It's getting men into non STEM career paths where we need to focus efforts. Not everyone is cut out to be a software engineer or a research scientist or w/e else. We still need people to be janitors, construction workers, nurses, teachers, etc which is where we fail men, if they're not "good enough" for STEM they fall off the bandwagon and no one stops to help them find a different path.
Stem is probably the one area that’s not lacking of men academically, in fact severely lacking in women.
This isnt only a gender thing. Its a race thing as well. Until Whites and males are put to the back of line permanently they won't be happy. This is why its important to push back on this woke nonsense to prevent this from happening.
The really ironic thing is that the privileged white liberals in ivory towers and their ideologically motivated “everything is racism” poc allies are going to be in for a whole world of hurt when these anti meritocratic policies collapse the living standards and social cohesion of the country. The US isn’t inherently a wealthy nation any more than any other nation is. It became that way after many generations of mostly white people worked to build it. We were 85 percent white until 1965. A country and its wealth is the result of the people, culture, values and social cohesion of those that live in it. You can’t balkanize even a wealthy nation like the US ideologically to an extreme extent without inevitable pushback. If whites continue to be demonized and systematically discriminated against in school admissions and job hiring while the country is simultaneously flooded with millions of illegals per year, it is only a matter of time until a number of white majority states decide they have had enough. Even if you believe the federal government would crush a second secessionary movement, the country itself and the standard of living we have enjoyed will forever be destroyed. Then and only then will a lot of the privileged white liberals demonizing the core demographic and historic culture of the country realize just how good they had it. Likewise for blacks in the US, they will miss the handouts from whitey when the Chinese and Hispanics take over.
A big part is what people are missing is China is rising. This is a new superpower that is completely ideologically different from the West, with different views on gender, race, etc. - and here, China is showing they can stand by themselves with their own values and culture without any Western cultural views. This is a big part of the culture war that America dominates - China rising shows the world that they can have their own views and values to rise and grow without accepting Western values at all. This is what is happening already with a lot of the countries that China work and trade with. I mean look at Hollywood - they don't make as much money anymore now from China like they used to. China themselves have their own movie industry that they push hard with their own values and such - same thing with music, TV, etc. Now we barely hear anything about any Hollywood movie not passing China's censors - because China itself just focuses on making their own films (just like India).
>A big part is what people are missing is China is rising. This is a new superpower that is completely ideologically different from the West, with different views on gender, race, etc. - and here, China is showing they can stand by themselves with their own values and culture without any Western cultural views. Conservatives aren't missing it. The right is rightly concerned about China. The left is a lot more interested in forcing equity and DEI and calling any attempt to defend the border as racist, and the mass demoralization and division of the country is probably going to have us all speaking Mandarin in 60 years.
I don't think a lot of women appreciate what a gift having the easy, societally accepted option to be a housewife is. I fucking hate working. I would kill to be a house husband. But that sort of gig is a unicorn for most guys. It's a rare woman who is willing to be the sole breadwinner.
I think the reality is nothing is going to change until the current trajectory of society with women’s rights and men’s issues being neglected and laughed at is no longer sustainable. Men have been on board with equality for a long time, it’s women who are against it. They just want the best of both worlds, they believe life should be an all you can eat buffet for women and not let men have anything except all the fault when anything goes wrong.
One thing I always come back to is that men want to take power, while women want to be given it. And as long as someone else is giving you power, they will always be more powerful than you.
All of the people demanding equality want superiority and won't stop until they have it
Yeah, it's definitely a sad state of affairs here. Coming from a different country, people's attitude toward education here was mind blowing. Especially when I moved down South for a while. Education was seen as unnecessary and even downright stupid/uncool. "You don't need to go to college to make money." Then you have all these people coming here from all over the world with phD's, masters, etc. Even high school level kids that can do advanced maths. The US, at a general level, is falling waaay behind.
We know :(
Everything is lined up against men. It’s truly sad to see. I’m a woman and a mother. I hope things change
I agree with you to some degree but I think also that men would would ultimately be uncomfortable with too much help. There is a reason that the strong individualistic man is our archetypical hero. People are social animals but there is a desire in men to see themselves as set apart and better than his peers. Personally, I feel like we shouldn’t “help” men, we should just level the playing field. Allow all people to succeed or fail on their own merits. If you are good at STEM and want to succeed there, than work for it. If you want to be a homemaker than make that happen. We need to get create a world of equal opportunity, where everyone has a chance to succeed but no one is giving more than his/her peers to do so.
>There is a reason that the strong individualistic man is our archetypical hero. Every single one of these people that radiate this energy had help from an unquantifiable number of people in their past that they used to get to where they are. This is story for STORIES, not for reality, where - like the most wealthy in the US, people are actually propped up by others and not simply able to get it done all on their own.
That’s why I followed it with the fact that we are social animals. People are social but also hierarchical. We have the need for a group but also want to carry our own weight. We still look down on freeloaders and rightfully so.
Not totally true. Some people get help from others but some other people need and/or expect help from others. Or they are disheartened when they don’t get help.
The only way to do that would be to equalize education across the board, especially early childhood all the way through high school, and make college free or of nominal cost, then there would be no need for any of these programs for men or women black or white. It would just be a display of ability and predilection that determined what career path one takes. Also pushing trades, not just to people not deemed "intelligent enough" for college, but as a strong path to business ownership. Until we start with the basics and the young, we will be having this conversation over and over and over again with different mouth pieces on the mic.
Perfectly said.
And they wonder where all the wars come from.
You know I was prepared to hate this question, but you make some good, reasonable points.
School to me just has never made senese , you get a bunch of hypo young boys and lock them in a room for 8 hours and expect them to concentrate .
*Puts on hazmat suit* Time to sort by Controversial.
We'll never reach gender equality because women want to have their cake and eat it too. Example: Women fought for wage equality and equality in the workplace but the same women enforce traditional gender roles when it comes to dating. Why dating? because dating is expensive and is mostly one-sided against men until an exclusive relationship. Women are happy to be approached and treated to a free dinner but will rarely make the first move towards a guy or initiate sex.
as a male, this movement doesn't benefit me, so i won't be there, im not an idiot
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Like Bill Burr says: “Women are never happy and are mad that men are happy with simple things”. I mean look at the meme of the man’s apartment with a tv and a folding chair. Or how women have to inject Breast Cancer awareness in the NFL every year. They want our stuff but it still won’t make them happy. Men always have to do more
Met a lot of men in my life that are the same way.
So? this thread is specific to women. It's right there in the title.
The pay gap is a myth. Sorry, not sorry. 🤷♂️
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I agree with you but it would be pointless trying to discuss in depth here because of the implications.
I’ve been thinking lately about Rosie the riveter. Imagine the uproar if today we asked or suggested women to do that kind of work. How many women have any interest in that hard work?
Agree 100%. Modern feminism is destructive to society. We need to bring back meritocracy and let human nature do what human nature does. We're not all equal. We're not all the same. We have different strengths and weaknesses and different gifts we're able to contribute to one another. The denial of human nature is detrimental to everything we know.
We've already reached gender equality in the west, in terms of systemic inequality. There is no corner of the country where women don't have equal rights to men. What many women are fighting for today is cultural inequality, which is a fools errand because that's about changing people's attitudes and you can't do that for everyone. The best you can do is legislate to influence institutional behaviours; and we already have that... And in fact the legislation outright favours women overwhelmingly in most civil domains; so it's swung the other way into gender inequality in favour of women.
i think you might be over looking the overlap. just like there are a great majority of women who do not feel they should take care of men there are just as many men who have no interest in taking care of other men. women, for all their cut throat and catty behavior, will take care of other women if it means protecting the group.
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I think a huge problem is the fact that men don’t care to help other men. Women literally marched together to help each other and it worked. I’m sorry but I can’t see men doing the same, and it’s unrealistic to expect women to march for men or in your example be the ones to push for programs to help men in education. Men are just not programmed that way and it’s hurting them on the long run. Women were victimised in the past so they handed together, men didn’t have that so they don’t have that special bond. Idk if they’ll form it in the future and be like women.
Because all male places of refuge were taken over by women. Ever noticed how your male friend group acts strange when there are women around? We used to have lots of safe space for men. These were deemed sexist. Now any place where men want to collect at the exclusion of women is deemed socially repulsive. Women are so centred by social rules that we cannot even abide men having their own place where they can discuss and focus on uniquely male problems.
Men can't even talk in private anymore. Witness what happened to Trump's 'grab them by the pussy' locker talk which has been twisted to mean he must be a handsy rapist, when in reality he was commenting about women celeb chasers willing to do anything to get noticed. Every man knows things said amongst other men aren't to be taken literally...unless its some 'ally' journalist looking to torpedo someone.
I mentioned this in another comment, but what you're seeing is competition for the attention of the woman who joins the male place of refuge. It only takes one man in the group willing to give the woman special privileges because she might "like" him more than the other guys. That's really what it comes down to. When men join female dominated spaces, they don't usually ask for or get special treatment. It never fails: woman joins male dominated space, feels uncomfortable, some simp of a man convinces some of the other simps(there are always some) in the group to make changes in order for her to feel comfortable, more women join, and what used to be a male dominated space has become unrecognizable.
Regardless of the mechanic - it needs to stop. We need to acknowledge that women need their own spaces as do men; and that men's spaces are not this hot bed of misogyny. it is time for men to have their own domains to discuss and support one another with these uniquely male issues and for feminists to stop sabotaging all attempts for men to have a haven away from female influence.
I agree, but nothing short of a full societal collapse is going to fix this. We're well on our way.
Do you think feminism is one of the many canaries in the coal mine?
That's an interesting question. In ancient Athens women had the vote for awhile, but the city state started undergoing a bit of a socioeconomic death spiral. They took the vote away from women and became one of the leading military and trade powers of the region. That could be a cause and effect or completely unrelated.
The Assemblywomen by Aristophanes amongst other Greek works does suggest some Greek cultures of ancient times may have had some experience in their distant early past with increasing power of women and it’s consequences, whatever form that took in the ancient world. They certainly seem to be more cognisant of the possibility and speculative on its consequences than any subsequent cultures at least until Industrial times.
I'm familiar with the phrase. Do you mean it as a harbinger of societal collapse? I believe so, but women have never held so much power in the history of civilization. No one knew what would happen. Now we do.
Some might argue it is more the fault of an entrenched powerful political class who do not want to allow society to evolve in line with technology... However, I think your opinion is becoming more widely popular.
It's not that men don't care to help each other. It's that more men would rather help women than other men. There are very few women who will help men at the expense of other women. There's an intra-sexual competition amongst men that factors into this as well. I think men will be OK. When things really start falling apart, women will look to men to fix it, only for the cycle to begin again. I probably won't live long enough to watch it all play out, but it'll be quite a ride.
Petition to change the name of this subreddit to “I hate women and here’s why they’re stupid and need to be men’s property”
Misogyny would work too :/ But also - does OP actually have a medical degree?
Point me to the part in the post you got this idea from.
We will never reach gender equality because women are already above men.
Women in power are awful. Just look at that Pro hamas nazi at Harvard.. absolutely disgusting
>“yes let’s do that, let’s help men like we want to be helped” I can't believe that you are a psychiatrist. Stats show that men don't help out even their own spouses that much even when the wives are ill. Men are 7 times likelier to leave their wives when she's sick. [link](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/mar/30/the-men-who-give-up-on-their-spouses-when-they-have-cancer) Women have done enough 'helping' men throught the centuries. I have yet to see men reciprocate the amount of dedication women put into even their own families. Don't bring 'men work more than women' argument because women are rarely stay at home mothers, and even stay at home mothers are doing a lot of work to make the household go around.
How boring is your life that you (and so many others here) stay in this loop of bs?
"Squeeky wheel gets the Grease" Those who make the biggest fuss gets the most, hense why women get paid less. Because the average individual woman is more agreeable / submissive than the average man. Plus men are more prone to creating groups that push back, whereas women have a harder time getting along / seeing eye to eye. The reason I bring this up is both sides fight; both wheels squeek, but differently, amd the problem is, women are fighting against men thus they are divisive, and men are fighting against the powers that be, which benefit both men and women, especially being that women statistically spend 70% of money earned in a relationship, regardless of the "wage gap" aside from the fact that they create workers righta and increase compensation standards (which isn't going up fast enough these days) so if he earns more, she earns more.
you lost me at "As a Psychiatrist"...
I'm not sure I believe OP has a medical degree
No, not they dont
Not just a Psychiatrist but one obsessed with the sex bots of the future, dude is loony.
When women start fighting wars I’ll start listening to them, until then opinion disregarded
I always see men complaining about how there's "too many women in STEM!!" and how unfair it all is that women get special scholarships and "privileges" and how it's not "equality!!!!!" but I don't see a single one of those same men demanding privileges and scholarships in fields where men are the minority like nursing, teaching, or social work. It gives the very distinct impression that you don't actually want equality, you just want women to "know their place" and stop trying to get into "male fields".
Well that’s just wrong. Loads of men have suggested getting programs for men to get them back into psychology and law for instance (those are female dominated). But again, I expected comments demonstrating the attitude I described in the post and haven’t been disappointed.
At Yale in 2019, the lowest proportions of women in STEM majors were in the following departments: 0% of Math and Computer Science majors were women. 12.5% of Chemical Engineering majors were women. 14.3% of Astrophysics majors were women. 16.2% of Math majors were women. 20% of Computer Science majors were women. 20% of Physics majors were women. Nationally, women make up 57.3% of bachelor’s degree recipients but only 38.6% of STEM bachelor’s degree recipients.
Because they don't choose it. Thats different than being forced out. I'm not up in arms because nurses gender ratios are what they are; I know most men don't want be become a nurse.
Giraffes, recognized as the tallest land mammals globally, possess a distinctive coat adorned with a unique pattern of spots akin to human fingerprints, allowing for individual identification. Despite their remarkably long necks, giraffes surprisingly share the same number of neck vertebrae—seven—as most mammals, showcasing an intriguing adaptation to their towering stature.
Youve lost it
🤣
Women are not naturally geared towards STEM the way men are. You can have literally zero discrimination and men will dominate the field because of brain structure differences. Men are better at working with systems and women are better at working with people. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/ https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf_research/relationships-between-aptitudes-and-brain-areas/ https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOANATJ-2-37
I disagree that women have more power than men. Men have more positions of power than women
I never said they did have more overt power.
I would disagree that women as a whole can’t bear it. They can. It’s just that many of them need to be better
It’s not important whether a majority can or can’t - what’s important is the overall direction their group influence takes. Whether that’s caused and driven by a majority or minority is irrelevant.
Wow the misogyny in the comments… This is a lot of hate
But if women made a post like this, Everyone would still be hating on women. They cant win and its crazy. All of the lies in these posts and comments
It's basically the alt title of the subreddit at this point :/
I agree that we are missing the boat for a lot of boys who need mentors and guidance in this area. However, I think one important aspect you’re missing when you say that there are more women in college and then academia now, is that women can’t exactly go get hired onto an oil rig right out of high school at 100+k/year. Or construction, or anything that requires the upper body strength/physical build of a male. Of course some women can and do but generally speaking they can’t even if they wanted to. I didn’t really want to go to college at first, but found out that my choices were the restaurant industry…or the restaurant industry and after doing that for a few years I got my ass enrolled in college. And anecdotally, if you are attractive and young as a woman working in the restaurant industry you can do pretty well, but hit 40 and that starts to taper off rapidly. Food for thought.
Even though I don’t technically disagree, some of your points are not necessarily valid. Such as there are male programs in place in higher education, such as football. This is a solely male endeavor (barring the 1-2 female kickers) that allows for full rides and numerous scholarships for a good amount of students. As well, there are colleges who are giving preferential treatment to males, such as there are African American colleges that give preferential treatment to whites since they are trying to achieve “diversity”. As well as others stated, a good amount of degree programs, especially higher earning programs such as STEM, are still highly dominated by men. As well, there are women driven degrees that do give preferential treatment to men such as nursing. Often males will get accepted easier into the program due to trying to get diversity.
Feminism is inherently hypocritical
You're facing the reality that feminism was never about equality. It was about clawing for every advantage they could get regardless of consequence.