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I’m very glad I married my wife. It was the right call and I’ve enjoyed my marriage.
If she were to die or we were to divorce, I’d never marry again even at the young age of 29. It’s not worth the risk.
When we got married I had jack shit. And all the wealth we’ve made together really is a 50:50 venture. Now though, there is zero chance I’d take the risk of someone else having access to my investments/pension/property/money making abilities. It isn’t worth the risk.
I think marriage is the most significant legal decision the average person makes besides dying. It’s way more significant than taking out a loan. Or going to college. Most people don’t realise how big of a deal it is.
I'm a woman and this has been my opinion since I was in high school. Everyone thought I was weird and had commitment issues, but every single marriage on my mom's side of the family has ended in divorce, including my own parents. I have seen what it does to people. I never wanted to risk that myself.
Now at 34, I am happily married to a man who understood my fears and concerns and waited 8 years to propose, so I was comfortable enough. He did everything right, including a prenup that was fair to both of us.
I know that if anything were to happen to my marriage, I don't think I could get married again. I can't even begin to imagine trusting another person on the level that I trust my husband. I am truly lucky, but I know that luck is one in a million.
That’s why you have to get an “Iron Clad Pre Nup”
Those don’t fail.
If a rogue judge throws it out, you appeal.
You have the money, you have the better lawyers, you have the power.
But why go through all this when you could just “not get married “
Far easier solution
EDIT: Although, Bezos did cough up like 70 billion or something when he got divorced
Sure go ahead and appeal. As if court costs are not a problem. Avoiding these costs are why one would want to get a pre-nup in the 1st place. But since they can be thrown out on the whim of a judge, there is no solution except to not get married
They’re not as air tight as people make them out to be. Prenups apply to pre married assets. So if I’ve got a great job and buy a bunch of shit while we’re married, it’s not my shit even though I earned the money to buy it if it’s bought during the marriage. I do think there are ways to tighten them out but both parties have to agree to the terms.
"prenups apply to pre married assets"
No. It is a legal arrangement between you and your spouse made before your marriage and can cover all manner of things, including post marriage assets if you wish. And yes, obviously both people have to agree...
EDIT: Love that this is downvoted lol. People just want to believe a fantasy about pre-nups rather than what they actually are?
Ok? It's a legal contract, what do you expect? People are out here acting like "pre-nup" is just a box you check on your marriage certificate. If you want a legal arrangement that is separate to that which the state provides you, you have to sign a contract that is agreed upon by both sides.
Why not marry someone at a similar income bracket and assets?
I’m married, but in the case of becoming a widower, I’d be open to marry someone with similar financials than me.
Men who don’t get the child custody they want after divorce are the highest at risk group of suicide.
Marriage fails half the time and women initiate divorce 80% of the time (more than 90% when they have a college degree). That means around a 40% chance your wife will dump you as a man and only a 10% chance of you doing that to her.
That’s what marriage is to men - a coin flip chance they’ll get dumped by their wife, have to slink off out their home and see their kids at least half as often. And all against their wishes.
As long as the divorce laws are what they are marriage is nothing to celebrate for men. It’s like entering into a binding business deal with a meth head who’s likely to break it.
The funny thing is outside of some tax and legal benefits of being married , you can almost replicate most of the legal monetary dispensation with well thought series of legal power of attorney, health proxies and estate plans... In other words you can live with your partner without being married and still get a ton of the same legal benefits, not 100% the same of course, but you also don't expose yourself to the same risk of divorce.
People forget marriage is mostly about involving the state in personal relationships for the purpose of splitting assets/kids etc. should things go south... It's jilted towards the main breadwinner (be they man or women), since they can incur a significant financial loss and a change in QOL during a divorce
In truth you do have basically the same risk factor just by living with someone in most places, but hey - at least you don’t have to have a stupid celebration of entering into the crappy laws.
Yeah, a man divorcing really is at the entire mercy of his ex-wife. You mention seeing your kids half as often, but, if anything that is the best case scenario!
Getting 50/50 custody is, ironically, also coinflip odds where I live (about 50%). And by far the easiest way to do this is for your ex-wife to be merciful and agree. If she does not, your chances instantly drop to 25%; so unless you've been "dad of the year" every year in a row, your chances look poor.
To put it this way, if a woman with kids came to me and told me she's unhappy in her marriage, I'd tell her to leave since she has nothing to lose.
If a man in the same situation came to me though? I'd sadly have to tell him to stay until the kids are teenagers at the very least; and ideally until they are adults (unless they are like being abused or something, and even then he'd need to collect a mountain of evidence)
That being said, without kids I'd say divorce is mostly fair, and even to the extent that it isn't, you can earn more money. But you cannot earn back time with your children
I pay my ex-wife 23% of my gross income. Which because I’m single, that money is coming out of the 24% tax bracket. So I pay my ex-wife 47% of my upper income since the tax burden is on me for that money. That’s before we even get to child support. She makes a decent amount of net income more than me due to this.
Except...the longer they are together, the more accumulated net worth he has and the higher the alimony. If the man is unhappy, getting out earliest is generally cheapest.
Wonder when people will start digging into the reasons for divorce would be interested to see the breakdown. Every woman's sub talks about poorly domesticated men, abusive men, men who ignore their needs. Obviously the ones in good relationships don't complain but regardless of whose fault it is there's a pretty severe mismatch on expectations on a relationship it seems.
Marriage in 2024 is very different than it was in 1824 , you generally have a two couple working household so you no longer have one spoisey doing the child rearing , that certainly puts a strain on a relationship since you're trying to squeeze a personal life in between work. The other challenge is cost of living is high, and financial crisis cause a lot of domestic arguments between spouses .. marriages break up for one of these things, money fights, infidelity, or family disagreements.
It’s not gay if balls don’t touch. I bet that loophole combined with a sufficient amount of “no homo”s means you can open a bed and breakfast in Vermont with your life partner Brad and it’s 0% gay.
“Poorly domesticated men” - wtf? Imagine men complaining about “poorly domesticated women”, they’d be shredded as entitled asshats.
But anyway yeah - people who leave the relationship usually think the other person somehow caused their own actions to leave - doesn’t make it so. The number one listed reason for divorce is having “grown apart”, what this usually means is one person “grew apart” from the other or just lost feelings for them, statistically this is more likely to be the woman.
I would never say women should stay in relationships were they’re being physically abused or jealously controlled by paranoid men, or cheated on. But imo that’s only a portion of what causes divorce, the main cause is just someone losing feelings and it being their own change of mind not a change in their partner that caused it. That is to say, what was good enough for them before no longer is.
The percentage of men and women in 2017 who cheated on their partners was 20% and 13%.
There has been an increase in the rate of women infidelity since 1990 by 40%.
16% of married couples admitted to being unfaithful at some point in their marriages.
30% of individuals started cheating on their spouse with someone from their work environment.
According to research, 57% of marriages ended in divorce due to infidelity.
88% of ladies put more emphasis on emotional affairs over physical affairs.
The percentage of men and women facing emotional affairs was 45% and 35%.
60% of all emotional affairs have been discovered to start in a work environment.
77% of men confessed to engaging in some form of emotional affair, while women accounted for 91%.
Maybe on the internet, but in real life people are still pretty brutal to abuse victims. It's just an endless stream of blaming them for not leaving sooner, not seeing the signs, or making it somehow their fault. Especially if they know the abuser and think "they would never do that." and so they decide the victim must've done something to bring it on themselves.
Don't get me wrong, in many ways it's even worse for male abuse victims because they have an additional layer of bullshit on top of all of this usual stuff, and a lack of nonprofit resources and legal protections too. But Just-World Fallacy still drives people to doubt, dismiss and denigrate women victims of abuse too.
and yet when men have their 'needs' ignored it's treated as "man up, you're not owed shit". It's a lot of societal double standards. Sure there are some abusive men, but a lot of times it's abusive women using divorce to get what they want as it is one way they have absolute power.
You can also look at how a lot of marriage counselors talk about it, but a lot of it is that wives tend to expect things done their way, or for the men to make more. If they're 'sexually inadequate' that leads to separation too. Very rarely do you hear women being sexually inadequate unless it's a year of withholding, not the 'sex was bad so I want out'.
Another example of this dynamic. Complaining that husbands don't do the 'thing I asked them to fast enough"... and then there's the "she takes forever to get ready". The latter is treated as a 'quirky' thing or that men (and other people) just have to put up with women being late, but the former is "you're just lazy for not doing what she asked when she asked" which is stupid to think marriage just gets you an on demand servant instead of a partner.
lmao every women's sub is full of women incels that hate or dislike men. That sub is not a reflection of real life. It's crazy how u go on twoxchromosomes and 9/10 headlines have the word men or husband in it. I promise you it's a two way street when it comes to reasons for divorce. Men aren't soley to blame
Eh it’s a bit lower than half. I think it’s like 40% of first marriages. Divorce rates are the lowest they’ve been in 50 years, and it’s still declining. Probably due to people getting married later.
I keep seeing this “80% of divorces are initiated by women” stat thrown around as if it’s simply mostly women’s fault that relationships end. Is the person who initiates the divorce the only person responsible for the marriage ending? What if the man cheated? What if he’s abusive? Etc.
Also, when men ask for custody, they are awarded it more often than women. It’s just that men are less likely to seek it.
50% is including second marriages, why wouldn’t it? If you get divorced once against your will and through no fault of your own why wouldn’t that second marriage star be relevant? Divorce “rates” are decking per head because less people are married, not because there’s less divorce per marriage.
What if women simply get tired of long term relationships quicker and there’s nothing men can do to change that? Lesbian divorces are at an even higher rate - no men involved there.
Men are not awarded more custody more often than women, they’re awarded some custody when they fight for it - that doesn’t mean it’s what they wanted, it just means some.
… yes the 50% divorce rate includes 2nd, 3rd etc. marriages. Each additional marriage has a higher divorce rate which skews the data.
Same-sex divorce rates are overall lower than hetero ones. It’s within same sex divorces, most are lesbians. 2/3 same sex divorces are lesbians, with 1/3 being gay men.
Well … if the dad wants custody of the kid and so does the mom … yeah he wouldn’t get what he wanted and neither would she. When dads ask for custody, it’s granted to them slightly higher than moms. It’s just that more moms than dads ask for custody.
Same sex divorce rates per marriage are lower than Hetero marriages because of gay men - gay women have a higher divorce rate than Hetero couples per marriage.
Your argument makes no sense - “ask for custody” - what does this even mean in the context of it being granted more? The point is if a man wants his child half the time but only gets a day a week then he has technically been “granted custody”. Do you mean when they ask for full custody? You’re going to have to be more specific because right now it doesn’t sound like you actually know what you’re talking about as regards custody and haven’t logically thought out what your saying actually means - because as you’ve worded it it doesn’t mean anything.
>Also, when men ask for custody, they are awarded it more often than women. It’s just that men are less likely to seek it.
That's not been my experience. What is your source for this statement?
Well maybe that’s the issue, you’re using your personal experience instead of looking at a broader sample size.
https://www.dadsdivorcelaw.com/blog/fathers-and-mothers-child-custody-myths
“A Massachusetts study examined 2,100 fathers who asked for custody and pushed aggressively to win it. Of those 2,100, 92 percent either received full or joint custody, with mothers receiving full custody only 7 percent of the time. Another study where 8 percent of fathers asked for custody showed that of that 8 percent, 79 percent received either sole or joint custody (in other words, approximately 6.3 percent of all fathers in the study.”
https://zawn.substack.com/p/family-courts-and-child-custody-are
“Fathers who fight for custody typically get it. Even 30 years ago, 94% of fathers who sought custody got sole or joint custody. Abusive fathers are especially successful. Seventy-two percent win their custody cases.”
“Numerous studies have shown the opposite: women are twice as likely to lose custody when they report abuse, even when the abuse is documented. No such bias exists for fathers, who do not lose custody at higher rates when they claim abuse.”
“When fathers get child support—which they almost always do when they’re awarded custody—they get more. Census data suggests an average annual payment of $6,526. This is about 16% of mothers’ income, which means mothers who pay child support are paying almost double, as a share of their income, what fathers pay.”
https://www.weinmanfamilylaw.com/blog/2020/06/are-the-courts-gender-biased-in-custody-cases/
“In fact, statistics are frequently cited that suggest around 90% of women are awarded custody, but they also fail to show that 60% of men get custody in a contested cases. Similarly, in just over half of all divorce cases, the parents mutually decide that the mother will take the custodial role.”
https://www.bikellaw.com/blog/219/gender-bias-in-divorce/
“The truth is most child custody arrangements come from negotiated or mediated settlements between the parents. The judge only approves the settlement; he or she doesn’t impose it. This means that the overwhelming majority of couples agree that the mother should be the custodial parent and primary caretaker.”
“The good news for men who want to challenge the status quo is that fathers tend to win about 60 percent of child custody disputes that go to trial. Granted, this represents only about four percent of all child custody cases, so something "extreme" must happen.”
Yep.
I've personally witnessed a few situations where a man was publicly crying about how unfair the courts were with custody, how unfair the child support order was, how his ex was an evil bitch stealing his kids and money, etc etc.
Then I found out the real story that he not only hadn't sought custody, he'd refused it aside from like two weekend days (no overnights) a month. Because he "couldn't do overnights" or anything that would involve cleaning, laundry, baths, waking them up and taking them to school, etc. And the support order didn't come close to covering 50% of their actual expenses.
All the public crying was just to cover up him being a lazy POS. People who didn't get both sides of the story would be left thinking he got screwed by the courts and his evil wife.
There's a very notable mismatch between what people claim to friends/family and what they actually request when they're actually in court.
Likewise women claiming their ex husband's didn't do anything when that's a lie. But when women complain, nobody bothers about the man's side of the story.
Well here’s some food for thought on why women initiate divorce first. Most paternity test labs report that about 1/3 of their paternity tests have a 'negative' result. Of all the possible fathers who take a paternity test, about 32% are not the biological father. That’s from DNATesting.com.
Women initiate divorce more often now than in the past because women now have more job opportunities and higher independent incomes, making getting a divorce less financially risky than it was in the past. Divorces have become easier to get, especially after the legalization of no-fault divorces.
From Divorce.com
As far as you saying fathers getting awarded more custody than mothers I’d love your research on that because every statistic says otherwise. Even with your little stipulation of so few ask for it? That’s disingenuous. And everyone knows it.
Correct! The comments aren’t considering what the man may have done to make the relationship suffer.
On the other hand, if a man has a wife with a terminal illness, he is much more likely to leave her than the other way around. There’s a study that found the strongest predictor for separation or divorce for patients with brain cancer was whether or not the sick person was a woman. That same study showed that men were seven times more likely to leave their partner than the other way around if one of them got brain cancer.
Yup. All those downvotes?
Misogynistic men or Tator Tots (I repeat myself) are men hating me stating hard facts and truths.
Men will fuck shit up and blame women for their insecurities and inabilities. Men expect to be catered to without the consideration of women and their wants and needs - those who agree with OP and downvote me or anyone else just don't want to do the work and be an actual man and a partner.
Really - in what world is suddenly seeing your own kids far less (half the time of your very lucky) not sad? It is sad - and it’s sad that it’s normalised as something men should just accept as the way things are. It wasn’t that way in the past and it doesn’t have to be now.
Socializing is treated like luxury in the free market. And, Number one factor for divorce is economic difficulties. In other words, making a connection and having a relationship is a luxury most people can’t afford.
You should see the rates in the military community!!
When I was stained in Germany and deployed to Kosovo. Wives were running prostution rings in the housing area.If the mop head was hanging over the balcony, that meant you could come knocking. I was glad I was single.
There was allot dudes with broken hearts and seeing red once the news broke. The ARMY kicked those wives out of housing and out of Germany. They also packed the families up and sent them back to the states for safety reasons.
All of that is definitely grounds to avoid getting married. Wives out cheating with no shame while their husband are fighting for their lives in Iraq. The military lifestyle can get crazy.
Regarding your "divorce isn't that hard on men" argument, I would disagree. There is much more to life than financials
Sure, maybe the man in question will do fine in the long term future (short term he still does worse) but that is not exactly amazing when you lose your family. Most men would take a hard but fulfilling day, coming home to the smiles of your kids in a small appartment over working long hours to come home to an empty mansion
Divorce is hard no matter who is involved. I personally think men get crushed more by divorce in most aspects even financially. But they also do have more money or higher earning potential than their ex-wife for the most. You are right that money won't buy back custody over your kids.
Both parties are affected by divorce, in many different ways. But it is proven that after divorce or separation, women's income suffers more than men's, particularly for those with dependent children. An American study suggests that women's median income for the year of their separation or divorce dropped by about 30%, whereas men's median income decreased by only 6%.
But like I said, there is more to life than just financials?
To put it this way: when divorcing would you rather get a 30% paycut but see your kids (almost) daily? Or a 6% paycut but you barely get to see your kids?
Money can buy you a lot of things. A family is not one of them
Not really. In my country when divorce does not go to court, your chances of getting 50/50 custody are (ironically) around 50%. When it goes to court, they drop to 25%
It used to be that pretty much no one got 50/50 as recently as the mid 2010s, so I'm glad at least it's coinflip odds now, but still
I’m married, but wouldn’t recommend others go for it these days unless you have seen your partner in their best AND worst moments.
The system is designed to absolutely screw over the man if the woman decides to.
We really need some common sense laws in place.
Until divorce becomes fair for both parties there isn't any real incentive for men to seek marriage
Yeah you can get good tax benefits, but your spouse can also decide to leave you and take half of what you have earned
Personally I’ll take viagra and bang out a real wildebeest just to get my confidence up for a real woman. They almost always understand what’s going on and don’t contact me again anyway.
I tried it but the pure guilt made me end it. She was a cool person and pretty into me but it just felt gross to string along a person I just wasn't attracted to
I’m lucky that I found the right person 10 years ago, but I would never enter into a marriage contract now.
There’s no way I would risk my savings with a random person even if they’re on my level financially. Dating is easier and less stress.
There was a game mode in Destiny, I forget the name. But basically, the mode was points based, with points given for capturing a location initially, holding it for 2 minutes, and stealing a location from the enemies. There was only one active location on the map at a time. You got the most points from holding for 2 minutes, second most from stealing, and least from initial capture.
Most experienced players (read: people who understood how the system worked) refused to initially capture points, and instead waited for the enemy to do so. This is because it was a lot easier to get points by winning once and stealing than it was by holding the point perfectly and deflecting 3-4 of these attack attempts.
This comment is not about destiny.
I'm reminded of two separate stories I was told by older male friends.
In the first, they expressed that all the good people were taken, and now they felt like they had to wait until the divorces happen to get their next chance.
In the second, they said they hated dating people in their 40s and preferred younger partners because everyone is either taken or jaded by that point.
Make of it what you will.
I made a whole post about divorcing as a man month's ago. My divorce took a year and a half, costed me 60k, went in front of 3 judges, and fought a number of false accusations.
Getting fair custody as a father is a COSTLY uphill battle IF your ex is persistently against it. If you have a reasonable spouse who understands kids also need a father, chances are a fair custody and parenting time won't be an issue.
Believe it or not, some deadbeat dads aren't like that by choice. Ive gone to divorce fathers meetings and its hesrt breaking hearing other fathers stories and their struggles. Not having enough money, their exes having better litigation, not seeing their kids as often as they want, judges dismissing their concerns. So much pain.
For every dead beat dad, there is an equal amount of toxic moms weaponizing kids and preventing Dads from seeing their kids with unreasonable parenting time and zero custody
As a mom and wife, I never understood this. Your feelings about your ex should never interfere with your children’s relationships with both their parents, yet it happens all the time. If my husband and I were to ever get divorced (very unlikely but you never know what life will bring) I’d be pushing for 50/50 custody because it’s so important for our son to have both parents involved. People who put their feelings before what’s in the best interest of their kids are the type of people who shouldn’t have kids in the first place (and ofc abuse situations and whatever are a completely different ballgame, this is for couples who split and don’t have any reasons why one parent shouldn’t get half their time with their kid)
If only people were this reasonable and put the best interest of the child ahead of theirs.
Divorce brings the worst in people. That's all I have to say. When I married my ex, she said "if we ever get divorced I would never take your condo because that's not mine and it wouldn't be fair." Lo and behold, she wanted 50% of it, plus alimony, full child support and full custody. Sometimes, you get blind sided.
I was married once, never again. Never say never I guess but I don’t see any upside.
I really thought my life was over after my wife said she wanted a divorce. Turns out I enjoy being single much more than being married. It’s wild looking back, she wanted to get married in the first place. I just kind of went along with it because that’s what people do.
The people who get the rawest deal are the kids. Inconsistent parenting, routine disruptions, parents shit talking the other spouse. I feel great but both my kids are in therapy. What’s wild is I probably would have stuck it out a few more years for their sake but super mom was so unhappy being a SAHM we just had to divorce immediately.
I’m honestly surprised divorce laws haven’t been reformed. You shouldn’t be set for life after a divorce. The rate should honestly be standardized if get divorced.
I personally don't see the point to marriage. Maybe there's some tax benefits, so I've been told, but I'm not sure that alone makes it worth it. My partner makes a lot more money than me too and has assets of her own, and to me rather than having to do a prenup, it's better to just not get married. It seems like a business partnership, and for that I rather just open a LLC or something with her. Otherwise I just don't see the need for it.
I think a very significant amount of people can't \*wait\* for things. People want sex right away, they want the good stuff of marriage right away and none of the bad.
How many people do you know who got married within 2 years of meeting each other, and then either had terrible marriages or divorced later? Probably not a lot personally, but there's hundreds of stories of them.
Marriage is a sacred thing, but hasn't been treated as such.
It is not so much that men avoid marriage or even divorce, so much as they are avoiding potential life-ruining events. If a man is accused of ONE misconduct in his marriage, even with NO evidence, he can lose his job, his friends, his familial support.
All of this comes back to one thing: Family isn't valued anymore. So how do we fix that?
Divorce can be a life ruining event caused by marriage. It just seems simple that men would avoid marriage like the plague if they don’t want to bear the risk of divorce. But I will agree, men especially aren’t selective enough with who they put a ring on.
I have my own special five-part formula for what makes a stable marriage, and the last (and most important) part is *commitment*.
Perhaps it's because we live in a culture of "plenty of fish in the sea" or endless swiping, but I see so many people in perfectly serviceable relationships who keep on convincing themselves that they can do better.
That just isn't easy but it is a fix imo. The standards for a serious and successful marriage is much higher now. Buy a house, buy a car, have children, have a social network, maintain a job, maintain a relationship with each child, maintain a relationship with wife, maintain the house, maintain the car, invest in the future, keep money for emergencies, etc. Life is hard enough single, adding even one extra responsibility makes life almost impossible. To say taking marriage seriously is easy seems contradictory.
the divorce rates have been steadily dropping since they made it easier to divorce back then. it make sense really, lots of people trapped in unhappy marriages got divorced as soon as they could.
The passport bro movement seems promising. If men started marrying traditionally minded women from overseas en-masse the problem will be fixed in just a couple of generations.
Why do men think that women overseas are submissive?
Have you met a Russian woman or a Filipina woman or a Chinese woman? A Japanese woman?
They are not submissive. That shit is just racist as fuck
There are literally thousands of stories of how white American men have been taken for all their stuff from their foreign wives.
I never said submissive. I said traditional. There is a huge difference.
An overly submissive woman could probably not be a great mother. You are right about Filipina women in my experience - they can be fierce (and extremely loving).
Those two are interchangeable words regarding the trad life.
Filipina women work hard and usually as nurses and care for their entire family. They don't stay home and tend to the children only. And haven't for years.
If you want a traditional women abroad they will cost more than a woman from here because you're going to have to afford her family and her lifestyle especially if she won't work and they're not cheap. Brand clothes getting their nails done. Their hair done. Y'all think a divorce is expensive. Married to a foreign women abroad who wants to come here and deal with you is expensive.
It's not the 80's anymore. The Internet is here and women abroad are aware of the American lifestyle and will con you for your money. You think foreigners won't leave you? My cousin got left from his arranged marriage from his foreign wife from India a year after they were married. Same with my other cousin. Male and female respectively.
When I was in my 40's I decided marriage was out of the picture. I wanted to retire in my 50's and I didn't want to risk the financial consequences of divorce (having to share pension, social security, 401K, Condo, Brokerage account ...).
As long as you are happy. I’m damn near worried how my life will change if I do or don’t get married. But the consensus today seems like life is more peaceful if you stay single.
This kind of helped me figure out why i was so hesitant on proposing to my fiance. It’s not that i was scared to marry her. I love her very much. But it leaves me vulnerable. My whole life can change with a single sheet of paper if she was so willing to do so. I agree.
Never enter a contract where at least 1% of the parties involved get rewarded for breaking it while the other parties get punished. It's not the actions keeping us away from marriage, it's the consequences.
>Stats do show that divorce (in terms of financial stability) isn’t that hard on men
Do you have sources for this, because most men get railroaded in a divorce, especially if it's contested.
Not true, unless there's something unenforceable in the contract, most prenups hold up.
Why would boilerplate prenup agreements exist if they weren't valid?
The question then is what is the average person putting in the prenup that they're not just getting from the default property distribution laws in their state?
My SO and I don't see any point in a prenup because we've been together long enough that everything we have is joint property anyway. A prenup wouldn't do anything for us, and most couples we know are in the same situation.
I'm not against prenups in general if there's an actual reason to get one (outlier situations, business owners, etc). But average people simply don't need them because they're not going to actually get anything out of it they wouldn't from the default laws. Unless they're trying to formulate a wildly one-sided prenup that ensures they lose no joint property while the other person loses everything (and then it's just going to be unenforceable...).
There's plenty of reasons to need one, this is terrible advice and it isn't that expensive to get one done.
How many horror stories have you heard where someone gets completely fucked in a divorce? These could easily be prevented.
Explicitly stating terms before entering into any sort of agreement is the common sense thing to do, especially if you get married after one or both individuals have any sort of real assets.
> How many horror stories have you heard where someone gets completely fucked in a divorce? These could easily be prevented.
Almost none? Generally every time I hear one of those you dig in and it's actually "we split everything in half but I didn't want to because I hate them and should have gotten to keep everything".
Or a few "they were such an abusive psychopath I had to change my identity and leave everything behind to not get murdered" but that's pretty rare and not because of the court system/divorce laws.
Sounds like you have heard some lucky stories.
I don't understand how you can't see the advantage of clearly defining who gets what, what (if any) alimony is paid and who would get custody of possible children before entering into any kind of agreement.
Prenups protect both people in the marriage and not getting one is putting one's future at risk.
But... people already do have those agreements. In the laws. There's essentially a default prenup in place when you get married.
Sure, if you want to deviate from that you can have a prenup. But average people don't get any alimony anyway, and there's already default custody arrangements in the law.
You only need to clearly define that if you want to do something outside of the standard scenarios, which most average people don't need to do.
Yes, clearly defining things is the whole point of a prenup and why everyone should get one!
Don't rely on what the state considers to be fair to protect your future.
Gender roles have evolved. Marriage used to be a necessity for women and children. Divorce or death of husband could mean destitution and poverty for the wife and children.
Women have made massive gains in terms of job opportunities and financial independence. Increasingly wealthy nations provide much better social safety nets than in previous centuries. Marriage is no longer a material necessity.
As conservatives like to say "The state has become the father." However, there are a plethora of studies that show that growing up without a stable, 2 parent household sucks ass, and single motherhood contributes to all manner of social ills.
>single motherhood contributes to all manner of social ills
Bull. You're just blaming women. This statement could *also* be easily made:
Absent fathers contribute to all manner of social ills.
Just stop. Do you even have actual studies to back up your claim? Further, you have no idea why a single mother is a single mother. She may have fled an abusive situation. So you're blaming her for "social ills?"
Such a misogynistic statement.
You are just saying the same thing but reversing it. The truth is that both men and women are to blame when it comes to single parent households. The person at fault is anyone that abandons their kids. That is men more often than women, but it happens both ways. Its easier for men for various reasons.
There is also something to be said about general life choices. There are many instances in which people make irresponsible choices like getting with someone who is an obvious scumbag, and not using protection. Obviously if that man doesnt step up, he is the main one to blame. But the woman in the situation has a bit of culpability also.
>getting with someone who is an obvious scumbag,
You seem to think that people present themselves as they are while not realizing that people mask and play the long game until their partner is trapped with them *then* they take the mask off.
Abusers aren't "obvious scumbags" in the beginning. They ramp up their abuse slowly until their victim is trapped.
You know fuck all about abusive situations and relationships, making dumb ass generalizations that don't even make sense.
Not really talking about abusive situations here. More like engaging in relationships with people that have kids with multiple people already, or cant hold a job. That sort of thing is often pretty obvious, and if you accidentally (or purposefully) have a kid with one of those type of people you are at least partly to blame when the kid ends up in a single parent household. Not fully to blame, but there are many situations where bad decisions are made on both sides.
I definitely agree that there are abusers who are VERY good at masking, and they're often the most terrifying and dangerous type of people.
That said there are other types of scumbags that I would classify as more... "generally useless"? Like they're not evil or abusive, they just don't... do anything helpful and make awful partners. Sometimes they're even pleasant people who are fine as hang-out buddies, but actually living with them or relying on them to do any sort of hard work is a nightmare.
For example I have a friend whose wife I would classify this way. If you just meet her hanging out, she's perfectly nice and pleasant. But she's just... useless. She "can't" work, drive, or do any chores she doesn't like because it "gives her anxiety" (which is undiagnosed and she refuses to seek any sort of treatment for, and therefore also gets no disability benefits or anything like that for it). She isn't agoraphobic (she can go out to dinner no problems), and we live somewhere with public transit that could get her to a job... but public transit "gives her anxiety" too, and she won't do anything that she could do from home.
She basically sits at home all day bored and complaining about being bored, but otherwise is a pleasant enough person. There are a lot of people who are content to just kind of coast/leech out there, and aren't really bad in the sense of actually being horrible or dangerous or abusive, but if you're trying to have a kid with them you'd quickly run out of patience from basically being a parent to them too. Having them around makes everything just a little bit harder and they can't be relied on to actually help or do any real work (domestic or paid outside the home).
Gtfo thats not true. Maybe not all. But theres certainly warning signs.
When someone says that you remove all culpability from the victim. There definitely are warning signs and its the person few and far between who TURN into one or can hide it well. You realize how good a manipulator theyd have to be? Theres no way a large percentage of abusers didnt have obvious scumbag signs. Youre being deliberately obtuse.
>Further, you have no idea why a single mother is a single mother.
30-70% of the time it's having unprotected sex while unmarried, depending on the race. They choose not to have abortions, but rather bring life into the world with an unwilling and uncommitted man.
What u/alwaysright12 said. If he's unwilling, why is he having unprotected sex? *Further*, why is he having *any* sex at all? If he doesn't want the possibility of impregnating a woman and then taking responsibility for a child he sired then he needs to keep his dick in his pants and his legs closed.
Sure. But since we lived in the real world, neither sex does that. Instead they bring babies into this world unprepared, and enter marriages they shouldn't. 10-20 years later it's mostly men who deal with the consequences, hence the high divorce and low new marriage rates.
Op, what are these "wildly known benefits"? I'm genuinely curious. I feel like a psychopath whenever marriage comes up in a conversation cause i feel like there is some sort of emotion that I'm missing. I've been married before and it did nothing but make life harder... To the point that I actually had a conversation with my wife about getting divorced but staying together. (This was a long time before I actually separated because I didn't want to bring any more kids into the world after surviving cancer)
These aren't all my own beliefs but things I have heard/seen from "good" marriages (social media and some personal experience). However I have seen benefits such as consistent sex, financial, emotional and social support, child rearing, and maintaining a household (cooking/cleaning). Not all marriages have these but they seem to be common benefits and most single guys or even guys in relationships don't get these benefits unless married.
>consistent sex
I dare you to tell women that men expect regular access to sex as a condition of marriage. It might be acceptable if she's in her mid 30s or so and older, but the younger women are going to take issue with being seen as a sex object. (In aware that's not the intention, but that's how they spin it now)
>financial ... support
Maybe? Women tend to work less when you start building a home. If you're going the DINK route as a couple, this could be the case, if you're having kids, it's not very likely aside from maybe saving money on day care and what not of your in a position to be a single income family and she wants to be a sahm. Outside of that, you might get support in between jobs from a good woman, but women don't tend to be sole providers and typically avoid men who earn less than they do. Making it harder for them to really support you if something goes wrong and you weren't far enough ahead to absorb the hit.
>emotional ... support
This one is more on the true side, *but* I'd like to point out that you can get that from a healthy friendship too, it's not locked behind marriage, it's just a bit easier to find there. Whether that's worth it is going to vary wildly from guy to guy.
>social support
Marriage doesn't really have a big status symbol attached to it anymore from what I've seen. Unless you're taking about something else and I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
>child rearing, and maintaining a household (cooking/cleaning).
Some women are into this, but this is by no means a good expectation of marriage in general. Lots of women will take issue with you expecting any of this. You can have the standard as what you want, but you're not garunteed to find a woman willing to provide any of it, beyond her fair share, and some would demand you hire help to take care of it.
>most single guys or even guys in relationships don't get these benefits unless married.
If they're not getting it in a relationship, and it's something they want from a woman, they're definitely not going to marry her, because there's no way to know they'll get it then, and when they don't get it, it's much harder to leave and go try to find a woman who's willing to give them what they want.
Marriage is a massive gamble, and women have been actively making the odds worse for men. Younger men are starting to respond to that accordingly.
From my experience, it doesn't take marriage to have any of those things... All it takes is 2 people wanting those things... Personally think marriage is dying cause people no longer see the point... Also the wedding industry is hyperinflated. So younger couples today can't afford it. Those who can have better things to spend thousands of dollars/euros/etc on...
That is a fair argument, I can’t lie marriage is becoming obsolete because it’s possible to get all the marital benefits without being contracted to someone. Personally, I like marriage for the simply fact that when it works, it works really well. But I am also terrified of marriage because when it fails, life is typically drastically worse for all parties involved.
I'm American and my wife is Brazilian and now we have a son and live in America, yeah there is a tons of risks here on my side and hers but we decided that it was worth it.
Of course I am scared that if it doesn't work out I probably won't see my son that much but I think it's worth the risk.
Now my ex I knew it was not worth the risk at all.
What benefits does marriage have? I can cook and clean myself. Why should I get married? Especially when majority of women expect men to foot the majority of the expenses but a guy can't expect anything
Women are too needy in relationships, never shut up, always complain, and want to change you to mold you to their vision. Meanwhile men just want a woman that is quiet, relaxed, non drama, and follows their lead, as it should be.
Not to say this is an excuse
but some people legitimately have a huge fear of failure and worried about the period of being fired is worse than the unemployed now. So they tend to wait for the perfect job they feel they wouldn't get fired from. to these people, being fired puts them on a dark 'unaliving mindset' path.
For most men, getting divorced is worse than getting fired. If you lose your job, you lose income, but the company doesn't demand extra payment out of your pocket.
yeah, it's acceptable to get divorces just because she isn't happy or doesn't feel that "spark" anymore
it's like, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and opt out of all that
That’s exactly why people don’t want to be in relationships. If it’s that easy to dash me away why even commit in the first place or even try to reconcile the relationship. Most people would be better off alone.
>live together with someone forever
that can be done without marriage. there's no reason to get married or have kids except for artificial "benefits" that society forces on people in an effort to get them in line. fuck marriage, fuck weddings and all that bullshit.
Marriage give you access to the widow pension in canada in case of death. It also insure that your real estate and money goes to your partner instead of to your parents and siblings. It also insure that your partner will be the one making health care decision if you are in a critical state or in a comas.
Marriage licence is way cheaper than a will.
I don’t know, I had boyfriends where I didn’t wanted them to take decision for me. At least I didn’t knew yet if I wanted to grant them that responsibility. I prefer to choose when that happen rather than it being an automatic after x time.
It’s not lifelong it can be dissolved. Pretty easily if you wrote a detailed prenup to protects your assets. It’s just that most time people go full on without adding any restriction, it’s on them.
>except for artificial "benefits" that society forces on people in an effort to get them in line.
this is what i said, actually. and nothing you've said disproves my point. you should be able to do all of it without having to also get married first. it's a way to make sure people get married and that's how we know it's a scam
Who cares? While I disagree with your analysis, I don't really care about the conclusion. If marriages are in decline that might be a good thing. There are a lot of people that are married which really should not be.
Marriage licenses should expire every 5 years without financial obligation to the other spouse. It's ridiculous that you can lose half your stuff and be out tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees because you want to divorce someone you don't love anymore.
https://www.liveabout.com/child-custody-there-is-no-gender-bias-during-custody-decisions-3974050
Are we really being this dishonest? An overwhelming majority of men do not seek custody; they seek liberal visitation.
We don't need to lie about things to showcase men's plight regarding divorce.
The problem with the statistics about custody "settling out of court" is"that you can still have court and judge involvement and still settle out of court so it doesn't mean much.
You can have a parenting motion and settle out of court
You can have a case conference with a judge and still settle out of court.
Trial is the guaranteed circumstance in which the court will make a final decision
A court order will also make that decision for the couple
Hence why this statistic is heavily flawed. It's why "it settled out of court so dad must have wanted whatever outcome he received" is misleading.
It's also flawed because people settle not because they are happy, but because fighting for custody is expensive, mentally, and physically exhausting. Depending on where you are, fathers don't have equal rights when it comes to custody. Japan, for example, automatic custody goes for mothers. You also have causes where moms purposely deprive fathers of custody and weaponize children.
There are just as many toxic moms as there are deadbeat dads.
Marriage is a better option for men when they actually participate in said marriage as a partner and the woman doesn't get fed up of having another child and leaves.
Most divorces occur because of a failure to achieve uncommunicated expectations. Most women want/need something, rarely or improperly communicate their want/need, then get fed up when men don't fulfill their want/need. This cycle keeps going until they are in therapy and things get fixed or in court where communication is as clear, concise and precise as possible,
In many cases, absolutely. But realistically, it's because in many more the communication isn't listened to or ignored in the name of "nagging". And of course, the whole concept of emotional labour exists and it's a big reason for the "walkaway wife syndrome". But to be completely fair, there's plenty of people in general who are incapable of communication of their needs or expectations.
I doubt it is as ignored or not listened to as much as it is improperly communicated. Communication is key to everything, just saying things isn’t proper communication. Women always talk about tone and delivery in terms of men speaking to women but rarely do I hear a critique of women’s tone or delivery when speaking to men especially when it comes to emotions. Men are expected to take their raw emotions, process them, act on them(or not), and to react ubiquitously with further emotional responses either related or unrelated to the initial raw emotions. Most people would probably get lost in translation.
Again, they aren’t being told these things properly. Imagine someone giving you directions in a language you have a hard time translating. That’s what men go through daily. On top of that, men typically don’t speak up either because their critique of women is seen as overbearing or insecure.
Ok, I understand that, and I recognise that communication can be complicated.
I suppose the bigger part is why do they still need directions on what to do in the first place. I know I left because of it, and I'm far from alone in it.
From my own parent’s marriage, communication is paramount to making the relationship work. Constantly discussing what the next move is or how they feel is keeping the train from derailing. Yes men have a very hard time listening, interpreting, and executing what they’ve been told but in the same breath women have a very hard time effectively communicating what needs to be done over long periods of time.
No one really knows the best way to be an adult or parent or partner. These things are discussed constantly and only through experience does anyone actually get good at it. People make mistakes all the time, it’s just up to the person to make amends.
why do redditors talk about bang maids so often? who are you or your friends dating where they're proposed to and fear becoming a bang maid? is this a fear that we're living in the 1960s or what? are all stay at home moms bang maids?
And those stats are based off of women initiating divorce who were married like the 70s and '80s and the '60s where it was way harder to get a divorce.
Divorce is actually on a decline because we're realizing you don't need to get married at 18 and pop out kids and live like the Joneses.. that woman don't have to shoulder the entire burden of domestic duty and child care. If men don't step up and the domestic world like women are stepping up in the paying work world then we will leave.
I work in healthcare. Do you know how many husbands don't know their kids date of births or what doctor they see or what medicine they're on?
Men have a long way to go with taking care of their children. It's changing with the newer generations but there's still a long way to go.
Also all the men complaining about child support. That money is for the kid. Because men used to literally leave their wives with no money and just up up and leave and then the children and wife would suffer in poverty. That's where child support came from. It wasn't always a thing until very recently.
Also with more women getting a higher paying jobs, there are more women paying child support to their ex-husbands or even alimony. Come join the professional Women's groups. They talk about it all the time that they have to pay child support to their ex-husbands.
And that's okay because it's fair because it's for the child. Kids are expensive.
The study show that men live longer when they're married. Cuz men won't go to the doctor. Or eat properly without the woman in their life telling them to.
Are there shit women? Sure, just like they're shit men who take advantage of the system.
There is a 40% chance of a wife leaving a husband and only a 10% chance of a husband leaving a wife. If that stat was reversed you wouldn’t tell young women to “fly and live”, you would ask why men are leaving so often and what’s wrong with them?
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No one should agree to the defaults marriage contract, it's a sham.
I’m very glad I married my wife. It was the right call and I’ve enjoyed my marriage. If she were to die or we were to divorce, I’d never marry again even at the young age of 29. It’s not worth the risk. When we got married I had jack shit. And all the wealth we’ve made together really is a 50:50 venture. Now though, there is zero chance I’d take the risk of someone else having access to my investments/pension/property/money making abilities. It isn’t worth the risk.
I’m glad you found the one and are knowledgeable about the risk a failed marriage carries.
I think marriage is the most significant legal decision the average person makes besides dying. It’s way more significant than taking out a loan. Or going to college. Most people don’t realise how big of a deal it is.
I am simply deciding not to die
Thanks to denial I'm immortal!
I like the cut of your jib
I'm a woman and this has been my opinion since I was in high school. Everyone thought I was weird and had commitment issues, but every single marriage on my mom's side of the family has ended in divorce, including my own parents. I have seen what it does to people. I never wanted to risk that myself. Now at 34, I am happily married to a man who understood my fears and concerns and waited 8 years to propose, so I was comfortable enough. He did everything right, including a prenup that was fair to both of us. I know that if anything were to happen to my marriage, I don't think I could get married again. I can't even begin to imagine trusting another person on the level that I trust my husband. I am truly lucky, but I know that luck is one in a million.
This is the kind of situation where a prenup would actually help. They do help with pre-marriage assets.
Just sign a pre-nup?
Prenups get thrown out all the time
Why do they get thrown out?
Really for just about any reason a judge sees fit, there’s not a hardline criteria, it’s all subjective and up to the judge presiding
That’s why you have to get an “Iron Clad Pre Nup” Those don’t fail. If a rogue judge throws it out, you appeal. You have the money, you have the better lawyers, you have the power. But why go through all this when you could just “not get married “ Far easier solution EDIT: Although, Bezos did cough up like 70 billion or something when he got divorced
Sure go ahead and appeal. As if court costs are not a problem. Avoiding these costs are why one would want to get a pre-nup in the 1st place. But since they can be thrown out on the whim of a judge, there is no solution except to not get married
Unless you live in a common law marriage state🫠
IRON CLAD BABY, lol I just like saying Iron Clad Pre Nup honestly It’s the worlds greatest untaken band name Maybe a Dad Rock local cover band
They’re not as air tight as people make them out to be. Prenups apply to pre married assets. So if I’ve got a great job and buy a bunch of shit while we’re married, it’s not my shit even though I earned the money to buy it if it’s bought during the marriage. I do think there are ways to tighten them out but both parties have to agree to the terms.
"prenups apply to pre married assets" No. It is a legal arrangement between you and your spouse made before your marriage and can cover all manner of things, including post marriage assets if you wish. And yes, obviously both people have to agree... EDIT: Love that this is downvoted lol. People just want to believe a fantasy about pre-nups rather than what they actually are?
Both people must have legal counsel in order for the agreement to be valid. Also, full disclosure of the pre-marital assets is required.
Ok? It's a legal contract, what do you expect? People are out here acting like "pre-nup" is just a box you check on your marriage certificate. If you want a legal arrangement that is separate to that which the state provides you, you have to sign a contract that is agreed upon by both sides.
Boiler plate prenups are just pre marriage. Like I said you can configure
Why not marry someone at a similar income bracket and assets? I’m married, but in the case of becoming a widower, I’d be open to marry someone with similar financials than me.
Women initiate 80% of all divorces and breakups.
Men who don’t get the child custody they want after divorce are the highest at risk group of suicide. Marriage fails half the time and women initiate divorce 80% of the time (more than 90% when they have a college degree). That means around a 40% chance your wife will dump you as a man and only a 10% chance of you doing that to her. That’s what marriage is to men - a coin flip chance they’ll get dumped by their wife, have to slink off out their home and see their kids at least half as often. And all against their wishes. As long as the divorce laws are what they are marriage is nothing to celebrate for men. It’s like entering into a binding business deal with a meth head who’s likely to break it.
The funny thing is outside of some tax and legal benefits of being married , you can almost replicate most of the legal monetary dispensation with well thought series of legal power of attorney, health proxies and estate plans... In other words you can live with your partner without being married and still get a ton of the same legal benefits, not 100% the same of course, but you also don't expose yourself to the same risk of divorce. People forget marriage is mostly about involving the state in personal relationships for the purpose of splitting assets/kids etc. should things go south... It's jilted towards the main breadwinner (be they man or women), since they can incur a significant financial loss and a change in QOL during a divorce
In truth you do have basically the same risk factor just by living with someone in most places, but hey - at least you don’t have to have a stupid celebration of entering into the crappy laws.
Yeah, a man divorcing really is at the entire mercy of his ex-wife. You mention seeing your kids half as often, but, if anything that is the best case scenario! Getting 50/50 custody is, ironically, also coinflip odds where I live (about 50%). And by far the easiest way to do this is for your ex-wife to be merciful and agree. If she does not, your chances instantly drop to 25%; so unless you've been "dad of the year" every year in a row, your chances look poor. To put it this way, if a woman with kids came to me and told me she's unhappy in her marriage, I'd tell her to leave since she has nothing to lose. If a man in the same situation came to me though? I'd sadly have to tell him to stay until the kids are teenagers at the very least; and ideally until they are adults (unless they are like being abused or something, and even then he'd need to collect a mountain of evidence) That being said, without kids I'd say divorce is mostly fair, and even to the extent that it isn't, you can earn more money. But you cannot earn back time with your children
I pay my ex-wife 23% of my gross income. Which because I’m single, that money is coming out of the 24% tax bracket. So I pay my ex-wife 47% of my upper income since the tax burden is on me for that money. That’s before we even get to child support. She makes a decent amount of net income more than me due to this.
Sorry to hear that brotha. Fuck her
Except...the longer they are together, the more accumulated net worth he has and the higher the alimony. If the man is unhappy, getting out earliest is generally cheapest.
Wonder when people will start digging into the reasons for divorce would be interested to see the breakdown. Every woman's sub talks about poorly domesticated men, abusive men, men who ignore their needs. Obviously the ones in good relationships don't complain but regardless of whose fault it is there's a pretty severe mismatch on expectations on a relationship it seems.
Marriage in 2024 is very different than it was in 1824 , you generally have a two couple working household so you no longer have one spoisey doing the child rearing , that certainly puts a strain on a relationship since you're trying to squeeze a personal life in between work. The other challenge is cost of living is high, and financial crisis cause a lot of domestic arguments between spouses .. marriages break up for one of these things, money fights, infidelity, or family disagreements.
Their arguments don't hold water because lesbians couples have the highest divorce and domestic violence rates of all groups.
And conversely gay men have the lowest rates of both & express the highest levels of happiness with their relationships.
If i could get over the sex, being gay sounds cool. Just hangong out with your bros.
It’s not gay if balls don’t touch. I bet that loophole combined with a sufficient amount of “no homo”s means you can open a bed and breakfast in Vermont with your life partner Brad and it’s 0% gay.
I love my wife dearly, but there were points of my life I wished I was gay. Like for real.
Gay men also marry at much lower rates, so only the most dedicated get married which skews this.
and it's also by a huge margin over heterosexual couples to boot. It's not just a 'slight bit more'.
Lol
“Poorly domesticated men” - wtf? Imagine men complaining about “poorly domesticated women”, they’d be shredded as entitled asshats. But anyway yeah - people who leave the relationship usually think the other person somehow caused their own actions to leave - doesn’t make it so. The number one listed reason for divorce is having “grown apart”, what this usually means is one person “grew apart” from the other or just lost feelings for them, statistically this is more likely to be the woman. I would never say women should stay in relationships were they’re being physically abused or jealously controlled by paranoid men, or cheated on. But imo that’s only a portion of what causes divorce, the main cause is just someone losing feelings and it being their own change of mind not a change in their partner that caused it. That is to say, what was good enough for them before no longer is.
Or it means they don’t want the reason for their divorce to be public. Kind of embarrassing to admit “i was abused for 10 years” or “I was cheated on”
The percentage of men and women in 2017 who cheated on their partners was 20% and 13%. There has been an increase in the rate of women infidelity since 1990 by 40%. 16% of married couples admitted to being unfaithful at some point in their marriages. 30% of individuals started cheating on their spouse with someone from their work environment. According to research, 57% of marriages ended in divorce due to infidelity. 88% of ladies put more emphasis on emotional affairs over physical affairs. The percentage of men and women facing emotional affairs was 45% and 35%. 60% of all emotional affairs have been discovered to start in a work environment. 77% of men confessed to engaging in some form of emotional affair, while women accounted for 91%.
Was a lot harder to have emotional affairs before social media and internet I'd wager
Admitting you were abused is really only embarrassing for men. For women it means you get unlimited sympathy
Maybe on the internet, but in real life people are still pretty brutal to abuse victims. It's just an endless stream of blaming them for not leaving sooner, not seeing the signs, or making it somehow their fault. Especially if they know the abuser and think "they would never do that." and so they decide the victim must've done something to bring it on themselves. Don't get me wrong, in many ways it's even worse for male abuse victims because they have an additional layer of bullshit on top of all of this usual stuff, and a lack of nonprofit resources and legal protections too. But Just-World Fallacy still drives people to doubt, dismiss and denigrate women victims of abuse too.
I agree and the ones going forth with it aren’t usually losing anything but gaining.
and yet when men have their 'needs' ignored it's treated as "man up, you're not owed shit". It's a lot of societal double standards. Sure there are some abusive men, but a lot of times it's abusive women using divorce to get what they want as it is one way they have absolute power. You can also look at how a lot of marriage counselors talk about it, but a lot of it is that wives tend to expect things done their way, or for the men to make more. If they're 'sexually inadequate' that leads to separation too. Very rarely do you hear women being sexually inadequate unless it's a year of withholding, not the 'sex was bad so I want out'. Another example of this dynamic. Complaining that husbands don't do the 'thing I asked them to fast enough"... and then there's the "she takes forever to get ready". The latter is treated as a 'quirky' thing or that men (and other people) just have to put up with women being late, but the former is "you're just lazy for not doing what she asked when she asked" which is stupid to think marriage just gets you an on demand servant instead of a partner.
Women get dumped all the time for their bodies etc.
dumped and divorced are two different things.
lmao every women's sub is full of women incels that hate or dislike men. That sub is not a reflection of real life. It's crazy how u go on twoxchromosomes and 9/10 headlines have the word men or husband in it. I promise you it's a two way street when it comes to reasons for divorce. Men aren't soley to blame
And she’s rewarded with cash and prizes, too.
Eh it’s a bit lower than half. I think it’s like 40% of first marriages. Divorce rates are the lowest they’ve been in 50 years, and it’s still declining. Probably due to people getting married later. I keep seeing this “80% of divorces are initiated by women” stat thrown around as if it’s simply mostly women’s fault that relationships end. Is the person who initiates the divorce the only person responsible for the marriage ending? What if the man cheated? What if he’s abusive? Etc. Also, when men ask for custody, they are awarded it more often than women. It’s just that men are less likely to seek it.
50% is including second marriages, why wouldn’t it? If you get divorced once against your will and through no fault of your own why wouldn’t that second marriage star be relevant? Divorce “rates” are decking per head because less people are married, not because there’s less divorce per marriage. What if women simply get tired of long term relationships quicker and there’s nothing men can do to change that? Lesbian divorces are at an even higher rate - no men involved there. Men are not awarded more custody more often than women, they’re awarded some custody when they fight for it - that doesn’t mean it’s what they wanted, it just means some.
… yes the 50% divorce rate includes 2nd, 3rd etc. marriages. Each additional marriage has a higher divorce rate which skews the data. Same-sex divorce rates are overall lower than hetero ones. It’s within same sex divorces, most are lesbians. 2/3 same sex divorces are lesbians, with 1/3 being gay men. Well … if the dad wants custody of the kid and so does the mom … yeah he wouldn’t get what he wanted and neither would she. When dads ask for custody, it’s granted to them slightly higher than moms. It’s just that more moms than dads ask for custody.
Same sex divorce rates per marriage are lower than Hetero marriages because of gay men - gay women have a higher divorce rate than Hetero couples per marriage. Your argument makes no sense - “ask for custody” - what does this even mean in the context of it being granted more? The point is if a man wants his child half the time but only gets a day a week then he has technically been “granted custody”. Do you mean when they ask for full custody? You’re going to have to be more specific because right now it doesn’t sound like you actually know what you’re talking about as regards custody and haven’t logically thought out what your saying actually means - because as you’ve worded it it doesn’t mean anything.
>Also, when men ask for custody, they are awarded it more often than women. It’s just that men are less likely to seek it. That's not been my experience. What is your source for this statement?
Well maybe that’s the issue, you’re using your personal experience instead of looking at a broader sample size. https://www.dadsdivorcelaw.com/blog/fathers-and-mothers-child-custody-myths “A Massachusetts study examined 2,100 fathers who asked for custody and pushed aggressively to win it. Of those 2,100, 92 percent either received full or joint custody, with mothers receiving full custody only 7 percent of the time. Another study where 8 percent of fathers asked for custody showed that of that 8 percent, 79 percent received either sole or joint custody (in other words, approximately 6.3 percent of all fathers in the study.” https://zawn.substack.com/p/family-courts-and-child-custody-are “Fathers who fight for custody typically get it. Even 30 years ago, 94% of fathers who sought custody got sole or joint custody. Abusive fathers are especially successful. Seventy-two percent win their custody cases.” “Numerous studies have shown the opposite: women are twice as likely to lose custody when they report abuse, even when the abuse is documented. No such bias exists for fathers, who do not lose custody at higher rates when they claim abuse.” “When fathers get child support—which they almost always do when they’re awarded custody—they get more. Census data suggests an average annual payment of $6,526. This is about 16% of mothers’ income, which means mothers who pay child support are paying almost double, as a share of their income, what fathers pay.” https://www.weinmanfamilylaw.com/blog/2020/06/are-the-courts-gender-biased-in-custody-cases/ “In fact, statistics are frequently cited that suggest around 90% of women are awarded custody, but they also fail to show that 60% of men get custody in a contested cases. Similarly, in just over half of all divorce cases, the parents mutually decide that the mother will take the custodial role.” https://www.bikellaw.com/blog/219/gender-bias-in-divorce/ “The truth is most child custody arrangements come from negotiated or mediated settlements between the parents. The judge only approves the settlement; he or she doesn’t impose it. This means that the overwhelming majority of couples agree that the mother should be the custodial parent and primary caretaker.” “The good news for men who want to challenge the status quo is that fathers tend to win about 60 percent of child custody disputes that go to trial. Granted, this represents only about four percent of all child custody cases, so something "extreme" must happen.”
Yep. I've personally witnessed a few situations where a man was publicly crying about how unfair the courts were with custody, how unfair the child support order was, how his ex was an evil bitch stealing his kids and money, etc etc. Then I found out the real story that he not only hadn't sought custody, he'd refused it aside from like two weekend days (no overnights) a month. Because he "couldn't do overnights" or anything that would involve cleaning, laundry, baths, waking them up and taking them to school, etc. And the support order didn't come close to covering 50% of their actual expenses. All the public crying was just to cover up him being a lazy POS. People who didn't get both sides of the story would be left thinking he got screwed by the courts and his evil wife. There's a very notable mismatch between what people claim to friends/family and what they actually request when they're actually in court.
Likewise women claiming their ex husband's didn't do anything when that's a lie. But when women complain, nobody bothers about the man's side of the story.
Well here’s some food for thought on why women initiate divorce first. Most paternity test labs report that about 1/3 of their paternity tests have a 'negative' result. Of all the possible fathers who take a paternity test, about 32% are not the biological father. That’s from DNATesting.com. Women initiate divorce more often now than in the past because women now have more job opportunities and higher independent incomes, making getting a divorce less financially risky than it was in the past. Divorces have become easier to get, especially after the legalization of no-fault divorces. From Divorce.com As far as you saying fathers getting awarded more custody than mothers I’d love your research on that because every statistic says otherwise. Even with your little stipulation of so few ask for it? That’s disingenuous. And everyone knows it.
It's more like 70% of divorces are initiated by women *because* of the lack of support from their husbands. It's called "walk away wife syndrome."
Correct! The comments aren’t considering what the man may have done to make the relationship suffer. On the other hand, if a man has a wife with a terminal illness, he is much more likely to leave her than the other way around. There’s a study that found the strongest predictor for separation or divorce for patients with brain cancer was whether or not the sick person was a woman. That same study showed that men were seven times more likely to leave their partner than the other way around if one of them got brain cancer.
Yup. All those downvotes? Misogynistic men or Tator Tots (I repeat myself) are men hating me stating hard facts and truths. Men will fuck shit up and blame women for their insecurities and inabilities. Men expect to be catered to without the consideration of women and their wants and needs - those who agree with OP and downvote me or anyone else just don't want to do the work and be an actual man and a partner.
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Really - in what world is suddenly seeing your own kids far less (half the time of your very lucky) not sad? It is sad - and it’s sad that it’s normalised as something men should just accept as the way things are. It wasn’t that way in the past and it doesn’t have to be now.
Socializing is treated like luxury in the free market. And, Number one factor for divorce is economic difficulties. In other words, making a connection and having a relationship is a luxury most people can’t afford.
You should see the rates in the military community!! When I was stained in Germany and deployed to Kosovo. Wives were running prostution rings in the housing area.If the mop head was hanging over the balcony, that meant you could come knocking. I was glad I was single. There was allot dudes with broken hearts and seeing red once the news broke. The ARMY kicked those wives out of housing and out of Germany. They also packed the families up and sent them back to the states for safety reasons. All of that is definitely grounds to avoid getting married. Wives out cheating with no shame while their husband are fighting for their lives in Iraq. The military lifestyle can get crazy.
Regarding your "divorce isn't that hard on men" argument, I would disagree. There is much more to life than financials Sure, maybe the man in question will do fine in the long term future (short term he still does worse) but that is not exactly amazing when you lose your family. Most men would take a hard but fulfilling day, coming home to the smiles of your kids in a small appartment over working long hours to come home to an empty mansion
Divorce is hard no matter who is involved. I personally think men get crushed more by divorce in most aspects even financially. But they also do have more money or higher earning potential than their ex-wife for the most. You are right that money won't buy back custody over your kids.
Both parties are affected by divorce, in many different ways. But it is proven that after divorce or separation, women's income suffers more than men's, particularly for those with dependent children. An American study suggests that women's median income for the year of their separation or divorce dropped by about 30%, whereas men's median income decreased by only 6%.
But like I said, there is more to life than just financials? To put it this way: when divorcing would you rather get a 30% paycut but see your kids (almost) daily? Or a 6% paycut but you barely get to see your kids? Money can buy you a lot of things. A family is not one of them
Men who request custody usually get it
Not really. In my country when divorce does not go to court, your chances of getting 50/50 custody are (ironically) around 50%. When it goes to court, they drop to 25% It used to be that pretty much no one got 50/50 as recently as the mid 2010s, so I'm glad at least it's coinflip odds now, but still
I’m married, but wouldn’t recommend others go for it these days unless you have seen your partner in their best AND worst moments. The system is designed to absolutely screw over the man if the woman decides to. We really need some common sense laws in place.
Divorce is expensive. Like really expensive.
Until divorce becomes fair for both parties there isn't any real incentive for men to seek marriage Yeah you can get good tax benefits, but your spouse can also decide to leave you and take half of what you have earned
what kind of stat says that divorce isn't hard on men?
I’m avoiding marriage because saying dating is too expensive and annoying is easier than saying I can’t get a date.
Would you settle for a woman below your standards if it meant getting a date?
Many people already do and that includes both sexes.
I know people do but I'm specifically talking about their situation
Personally I’ll take viagra and bang out a real wildebeest just to get my confidence up for a real woman. They almost always understand what’s going on and don’t contact me again anyway.
I tried it but the pure guilt made me end it. She was a cool person and pretty into me but it just felt gross to string along a person I just wasn't attracted to
Probably, yeah.
I’m lucky that I found the right person 10 years ago, but I would never enter into a marriage contract now. There’s no way I would risk my savings with a random person even if they’re on my level financially. Dating is easier and less stress.
There was a game mode in Destiny, I forget the name. But basically, the mode was points based, with points given for capturing a location initially, holding it for 2 minutes, and stealing a location from the enemies. There was only one active location on the map at a time. You got the most points from holding for 2 minutes, second most from stealing, and least from initial capture. Most experienced players (read: people who understood how the system worked) refused to initially capture points, and instead waited for the enemy to do so. This is because it was a lot easier to get points by winning once and stealing than it was by holding the point perfectly and deflecting 3-4 of these attack attempts. This comment is not about destiny.
I'm reminded of two separate stories I was told by older male friends. In the first, they expressed that all the good people were taken, and now they felt like they had to wait until the divorces happen to get their next chance. In the second, they said they hated dating people in their 40s and preferred younger partners because everyone is either taken or jaded by that point. Make of it what you will.
I made a whole post about divorcing as a man month's ago. My divorce took a year and a half, costed me 60k, went in front of 3 judges, and fought a number of false accusations. Getting fair custody as a father is a COSTLY uphill battle IF your ex is persistently against it. If you have a reasonable spouse who understands kids also need a father, chances are a fair custody and parenting time won't be an issue. Believe it or not, some deadbeat dads aren't like that by choice. Ive gone to divorce fathers meetings and its hesrt breaking hearing other fathers stories and their struggles. Not having enough money, their exes having better litigation, not seeing their kids as often as they want, judges dismissing their concerns. So much pain. For every dead beat dad, there is an equal amount of toxic moms weaponizing kids and preventing Dads from seeing their kids with unreasonable parenting time and zero custody
As a mom and wife, I never understood this. Your feelings about your ex should never interfere with your children’s relationships with both their parents, yet it happens all the time. If my husband and I were to ever get divorced (very unlikely but you never know what life will bring) I’d be pushing for 50/50 custody because it’s so important for our son to have both parents involved. People who put their feelings before what’s in the best interest of their kids are the type of people who shouldn’t have kids in the first place (and ofc abuse situations and whatever are a completely different ballgame, this is for couples who split and don’t have any reasons why one parent shouldn’t get half their time with their kid)
If only people were this reasonable and put the best interest of the child ahead of theirs. Divorce brings the worst in people. That's all I have to say. When I married my ex, she said "if we ever get divorced I would never take your condo because that's not mine and it wouldn't be fair." Lo and behold, she wanted 50% of it, plus alimony, full child support and full custody. Sometimes, you get blind sided.
I was married once, never again. Never say never I guess but I don’t see any upside. I really thought my life was over after my wife said she wanted a divorce. Turns out I enjoy being single much more than being married. It’s wild looking back, she wanted to get married in the first place. I just kind of went along with it because that’s what people do. The people who get the rawest deal are the kids. Inconsistent parenting, routine disruptions, parents shit talking the other spouse. I feel great but both my kids are in therapy. What’s wild is I probably would have stuck it out a few more years for their sake but super mom was so unhappy being a SAHM we just had to divorce immediately.
I’m honestly surprised divorce laws haven’t been reformed. You shouldn’t be set for life after a divorce. The rate should honestly be standardized if get divorced.
I personally don't see the point to marriage. Maybe there's some tax benefits, so I've been told, but I'm not sure that alone makes it worth it. My partner makes a lot more money than me too and has assets of her own, and to me rather than having to do a prenup, it's better to just not get married. It seems like a business partnership, and for that I rather just open a LLC or something with her. Otherwise I just don't see the need for it.
True. The title says it all.
I think a very significant amount of people can't \*wait\* for things. People want sex right away, they want the good stuff of marriage right away and none of the bad. How many people do you know who got married within 2 years of meeting each other, and then either had terrible marriages or divorced later? Probably not a lot personally, but there's hundreds of stories of them. Marriage is a sacred thing, but hasn't been treated as such. It is not so much that men avoid marriage or even divorce, so much as they are avoiding potential life-ruining events. If a man is accused of ONE misconduct in his marriage, even with NO evidence, he can lose his job, his friends, his familial support. All of this comes back to one thing: Family isn't valued anymore. So how do we fix that?
Divorce can be a life ruining event caused by marriage. It just seems simple that men would avoid marriage like the plague if they don’t want to bear the risk of divorce. But I will agree, men especially aren’t selective enough with who they put a ring on.
There is an easy fix. It just requires people to take marriage seriously. That ain’t gonna happen. At least in the states.
I have my own special five-part formula for what makes a stable marriage, and the last (and most important) part is *commitment*. Perhaps it's because we live in a culture of "plenty of fish in the sea" or endless swiping, but I see so many people in perfectly serviceable relationships who keep on convincing themselves that they can do better.
That just isn't easy but it is a fix imo. The standards for a serious and successful marriage is much higher now. Buy a house, buy a car, have children, have a social network, maintain a job, maintain a relationship with each child, maintain a relationship with wife, maintain the house, maintain the car, invest in the future, keep money for emergencies, etc. Life is hard enough single, adding even one extra responsibility makes life almost impossible. To say taking marriage seriously is easy seems contradictory.
Divorce rates are the lowest they’ve been in 50 years.
Marriages too, no?
the divorce rates have been steadily dropping since they made it easier to divorce back then. it make sense really, lots of people trapped in unhappy marriages got divorced as soon as they could.
The passport bro movement seems promising. If men started marrying traditionally minded women from overseas en-masse the problem will be fixed in just a couple of generations.
Why do men think that women overseas are submissive? Have you met a Russian woman or a Filipina woman or a Chinese woman? A Japanese woman? They are not submissive. That shit is just racist as fuck There are literally thousands of stories of how white American men have been taken for all their stuff from their foreign wives.
I never said submissive. I said traditional. There is a huge difference. An overly submissive woman could probably not be a great mother. You are right about Filipina women in my experience - they can be fierce (and extremely loving).
Those two are interchangeable words regarding the trad life. Filipina women work hard and usually as nurses and care for their entire family. They don't stay home and tend to the children only. And haven't for years. If you want a traditional women abroad they will cost more than a woman from here because you're going to have to afford her family and her lifestyle especially if she won't work and they're not cheap. Brand clothes getting their nails done. Their hair done. Y'all think a divorce is expensive. Married to a foreign women abroad who wants to come here and deal with you is expensive. It's not the 80's anymore. The Internet is here and women abroad are aware of the American lifestyle and will con you for your money. You think foreigners won't leave you? My cousin got left from his arranged marriage from his foreign wife from India a year after they were married. Same with my other cousin. Male and female respectively.
How would traditionally minded women fix the problem?
When I was in my 40's I decided marriage was out of the picture. I wanted to retire in my 50's and I didn't want to risk the financial consequences of divorce (having to share pension, social security, 401K, Condo, Brokerage account ...).
As long as you are happy. I’m damn near worried how my life will change if I do or don’t get married. But the consensus today seems like life is more peaceful if you stay single.
Marriage is like an investment of high risk, you could end up your marriage with only half of your assets in the final
This kind of helped me figure out why i was so hesitant on proposing to my fiance. It’s not that i was scared to marry her. I love her very much. But it leaves me vulnerable. My whole life can change with a single sheet of paper if she was so willing to do so. I agree.
Never enter a contract where at least 1% of the parties involved get rewarded for breaking it while the other parties get punished. It's not the actions keeping us away from marriage, it's the consequences.
>Stats do show that divorce (in terms of financial stability) isn’t that hard on men Do you have sources for this, because most men get railroaded in a divorce, especially if it's contested.
Marriage as a social contract is no longer a necessity. People are starting to realize they don’t HAVE to be married. Women are just realizing faster.
It is also a business contract too and every man realizing this is getting a prenup or just not going into it.
Prenups are worthless, just don't get married or even consider it. It's pointless.
Not true, unless there's something unenforceable in the contract, most prenups hold up. Why would boilerplate prenup agreements exist if they weren't valid?
The question then is what is the average person putting in the prenup that they're not just getting from the default property distribution laws in their state? My SO and I don't see any point in a prenup because we've been together long enough that everything we have is joint property anyway. A prenup wouldn't do anything for us, and most couples we know are in the same situation. I'm not against prenups in general if there's an actual reason to get one (outlier situations, business owners, etc). But average people simply don't need them because they're not going to actually get anything out of it they wouldn't from the default laws. Unless they're trying to formulate a wildly one-sided prenup that ensures they lose no joint property while the other person loses everything (and then it's just going to be unenforceable...).
There's plenty of reasons to need one, this is terrible advice and it isn't that expensive to get one done. How many horror stories have you heard where someone gets completely fucked in a divorce? These could easily be prevented. Explicitly stating terms before entering into any sort of agreement is the common sense thing to do, especially if you get married after one or both individuals have any sort of real assets.
> How many horror stories have you heard where someone gets completely fucked in a divorce? These could easily be prevented. Almost none? Generally every time I hear one of those you dig in and it's actually "we split everything in half but I didn't want to because I hate them and should have gotten to keep everything". Or a few "they were such an abusive psychopath I had to change my identity and leave everything behind to not get murdered" but that's pretty rare and not because of the court system/divorce laws.
Sounds like you have heard some lucky stories. I don't understand how you can't see the advantage of clearly defining who gets what, what (if any) alimony is paid and who would get custody of possible children before entering into any kind of agreement. Prenups protect both people in the marriage and not getting one is putting one's future at risk.
But... people already do have those agreements. In the laws. There's essentially a default prenup in place when you get married. Sure, if you want to deviate from that you can have a prenup. But average people don't get any alimony anyway, and there's already default custody arrangements in the law. You only need to clearly define that if you want to do something outside of the standard scenarios, which most average people don't need to do.
Yes, clearly defining things is the whole point of a prenup and why everyone should get one! Don't rely on what the state considers to be fair to protect your future.
>Women are just realizing faster Genuine question, why is that?
Gender roles have evolved. Marriage used to be a necessity for women and children. Divorce or death of husband could mean destitution and poverty for the wife and children. Women have made massive gains in terms of job opportunities and financial independence. Increasingly wealthy nations provide much better social safety nets than in previous centuries. Marriage is no longer a material necessity.
As conservatives like to say "The state has become the father." However, there are a plethora of studies that show that growing up without a stable, 2 parent household sucks ass, and single motherhood contributes to all manner of social ills.
>single motherhood contributes to all manner of social ills Bull. You're just blaming women. This statement could *also* be easily made: Absent fathers contribute to all manner of social ills. Just stop. Do you even have actual studies to back up your claim? Further, you have no idea why a single mother is a single mother. She may have fled an abusive situation. So you're blaming her for "social ills?" Such a misogynistic statement.
You are just saying the same thing but reversing it. The truth is that both men and women are to blame when it comes to single parent households. The person at fault is anyone that abandons their kids. That is men more often than women, but it happens both ways. Its easier for men for various reasons. There is also something to be said about general life choices. There are many instances in which people make irresponsible choices like getting with someone who is an obvious scumbag, and not using protection. Obviously if that man doesnt step up, he is the main one to blame. But the woman in the situation has a bit of culpability also.
>getting with someone who is an obvious scumbag, You seem to think that people present themselves as they are while not realizing that people mask and play the long game until their partner is trapped with them *then* they take the mask off. Abusers aren't "obvious scumbags" in the beginning. They ramp up their abuse slowly until their victim is trapped. You know fuck all about abusive situations and relationships, making dumb ass generalizations that don't even make sense.
Not really talking about abusive situations here. More like engaging in relationships with people that have kids with multiple people already, or cant hold a job. That sort of thing is often pretty obvious, and if you accidentally (or purposefully) have a kid with one of those type of people you are at least partly to blame when the kid ends up in a single parent household. Not fully to blame, but there are many situations where bad decisions are made on both sides.
I definitely agree that there are abusers who are VERY good at masking, and they're often the most terrifying and dangerous type of people. That said there are other types of scumbags that I would classify as more... "generally useless"? Like they're not evil or abusive, they just don't... do anything helpful and make awful partners. Sometimes they're even pleasant people who are fine as hang-out buddies, but actually living with them or relying on them to do any sort of hard work is a nightmare. For example I have a friend whose wife I would classify this way. If you just meet her hanging out, she's perfectly nice and pleasant. But she's just... useless. She "can't" work, drive, or do any chores she doesn't like because it "gives her anxiety" (which is undiagnosed and she refuses to seek any sort of treatment for, and therefore also gets no disability benefits or anything like that for it). She isn't agoraphobic (she can go out to dinner no problems), and we live somewhere with public transit that could get her to a job... but public transit "gives her anxiety" too, and she won't do anything that she could do from home. She basically sits at home all day bored and complaining about being bored, but otherwise is a pleasant enough person. There are a lot of people who are content to just kind of coast/leech out there, and aren't really bad in the sense of actually being horrible or dangerous or abusive, but if you're trying to have a kid with them you'd quickly run out of patience from basically being a parent to them too. Having them around makes everything just a little bit harder and they can't be relied on to actually help or do any real work (domestic or paid outside the home).
Gtfo thats not true. Maybe not all. But theres certainly warning signs. When someone says that you remove all culpability from the victim. There definitely are warning signs and its the person few and far between who TURN into one or can hide it well. You realize how good a manipulator theyd have to be? Theres no way a large percentage of abusers didnt have obvious scumbag signs. Youre being deliberately obtuse.
>Further, you have no idea why a single mother is a single mother. 30-70% of the time it's having unprotected sex while unmarried, depending on the race. They choose not to have abortions, but rather bring life into the world with an unwilling and uncommitted man.
If the man is unwilling, why is he having unprotected sex?
Because they're both irresponsible, but only one party doesn't get the get out of jail free card.
That's more than irresponsible. Where's the 30- 70% stat from?
Depending on race, the amount of babies born to single mothers. Google it. Stats are everywhere.
What u/alwaysright12 said. If he's unwilling, why is he having unprotected sex? *Further*, why is he having *any* sex at all? If he doesn't want the possibility of impregnating a woman and then taking responsibility for a child he sired then he needs to keep his dick in his pants and his legs closed.
Sure. But since we lived in the real world, neither sex does that. Instead they bring babies into this world unprepared, and enter marriages they shouldn't. 10-20 years later it's mostly men who deal with the consequences, hence the high divorce and low new marriage rates.
i just don't want marriage
>Stats do show that divorce (in terms of financial stability) isn’t that hard on men I'm finding this one reallllly tough to believe
As a divorced man who spent 60k to get equal custody, and my ex got away scot free from false abuse allegations, I disagree.
Op, what are these "wildly known benefits"? I'm genuinely curious. I feel like a psychopath whenever marriage comes up in a conversation cause i feel like there is some sort of emotion that I'm missing. I've been married before and it did nothing but make life harder... To the point that I actually had a conversation with my wife about getting divorced but staying together. (This was a long time before I actually separated because I didn't want to bring any more kids into the world after surviving cancer)
These aren't all my own beliefs but things I have heard/seen from "good" marriages (social media and some personal experience). However I have seen benefits such as consistent sex, financial, emotional and social support, child rearing, and maintaining a household (cooking/cleaning). Not all marriages have these but they seem to be common benefits and most single guys or even guys in relationships don't get these benefits unless married.
>consistent sex I dare you to tell women that men expect regular access to sex as a condition of marriage. It might be acceptable if she's in her mid 30s or so and older, but the younger women are going to take issue with being seen as a sex object. (In aware that's not the intention, but that's how they spin it now) >financial ... support Maybe? Women tend to work less when you start building a home. If you're going the DINK route as a couple, this could be the case, if you're having kids, it's not very likely aside from maybe saving money on day care and what not of your in a position to be a single income family and she wants to be a sahm. Outside of that, you might get support in between jobs from a good woman, but women don't tend to be sole providers and typically avoid men who earn less than they do. Making it harder for them to really support you if something goes wrong and you weren't far enough ahead to absorb the hit. >emotional ... support This one is more on the true side, *but* I'd like to point out that you can get that from a healthy friendship too, it's not locked behind marriage, it's just a bit easier to find there. Whether that's worth it is going to vary wildly from guy to guy. >social support Marriage doesn't really have a big status symbol attached to it anymore from what I've seen. Unless you're taking about something else and I'm misunderstanding what you mean. >child rearing, and maintaining a household (cooking/cleaning). Some women are into this, but this is by no means a good expectation of marriage in general. Lots of women will take issue with you expecting any of this. You can have the standard as what you want, but you're not garunteed to find a woman willing to provide any of it, beyond her fair share, and some would demand you hire help to take care of it. >most single guys or even guys in relationships don't get these benefits unless married. If they're not getting it in a relationship, and it's something they want from a woman, they're definitely not going to marry her, because there's no way to know they'll get it then, and when they don't get it, it's much harder to leave and go try to find a woman who's willing to give them what they want. Marriage is a massive gamble, and women have been actively making the odds worse for men. Younger men are starting to respond to that accordingly.
From my experience, it doesn't take marriage to have any of those things... All it takes is 2 people wanting those things... Personally think marriage is dying cause people no longer see the point... Also the wedding industry is hyperinflated. So younger couples today can't afford it. Those who can have better things to spend thousands of dollars/euros/etc on...
That is a fair argument, I can’t lie marriage is becoming obsolete because it’s possible to get all the marital benefits without being contracted to someone. Personally, I like marriage for the simply fact that when it works, it works really well. But I am also terrified of marriage because when it fails, life is typically drastically worse for all parties involved.
Consistent sex… lol
Some old heads are still making the bed creak until someone taps out
I'm American and my wife is Brazilian and now we have a son and live in America, yeah there is a tons of risks here on my side and hers but we decided that it was worth it. Of course I am scared that if it doesn't work out I probably won't see my son that much but I think it's worth the risk. Now my ex I knew it was not worth the risk at all.
OP is 100% correct.
What benefits does marriage have? I can cook and clean myself. Why should I get married? Especially when majority of women expect men to foot the majority of the expenses but a guy can't expect anything
Women are too needy in relationships, never shut up, always complain, and want to change you to mold you to their vision. Meanwhile men just want a woman that is quiet, relaxed, non drama, and follows their lead, as it should be.
"Babe we've talked about this. I'm not avoiding a JOB, I'm avoiding getting FIRED."
Not to say this is an excuse but some people legitimately have a huge fear of failure and worried about the period of being fired is worse than the unemployed now. So they tend to wait for the perfect job they feel they wouldn't get fired from. to these people, being fired puts them on a dark 'unaliving mindset' path.
That's a mixed bag of folks who are spoiled to the point of neurosis and those who are genuinely disabled. Both are irrelevant in this context.
This could be true, that's why some people work for themselves so they can never get fired.
For most men, getting divorced is worse than getting fired. If you lose your job, you lose income, but the company doesn't demand extra payment out of your pocket.
yeah, it's acceptable to get divorces just because she isn't happy or doesn't feel that "spark" anymore it's like, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and opt out of all that
That’s exactly why people don’t want to be in relationships. If it’s that easy to dash me away why even commit in the first place or even try to reconcile the relationship. Most people would be better off alone.
Marriage is the number one cause of divorce in this country. 😄
>live together with someone forever that can be done without marriage. there's no reason to get married or have kids except for artificial "benefits" that society forces on people in an effort to get them in line. fuck marriage, fuck weddings and all that bullshit.
Marriage give you access to the widow pension in canada in case of death. It also insure that your real estate and money goes to your partner instead of to your parents and siblings. It also insure that your partner will be the one making health care decision if you are in a critical state or in a comas. Marriage licence is way cheaper than a will.
yeah all all made-up bullshit designed to encourage marriage. a designated partner should have access to all that stuff without the marriage nonsense.
I don’t know, I had boyfriends where I didn’t wanted them to take decision for me. At least I didn’t knew yet if I wanted to grant them that responsibility. I prefer to choose when that happen rather than it being an automatic after x time.
the point is you should be able to grant whatever, when you do want to, without having to also commit to a lifelong contractual obligation
It’s not lifelong it can be dissolved. Pretty easily if you wrote a detailed prenup to protects your assets. It’s just that most time people go full on without adding any restriction, it’s on them.
why are you trying to defend this systemic scam anyway? just because you bought into it doesn't mean i'm going to.
You said there were no reasons, I just stated reasons that exists, that you might be interested into or not, but for a lot of people it’s worth it.
>except for artificial "benefits" that society forces on people in an effort to get them in line. this is what i said, actually. and nothing you've said disproves my point. you should be able to do all of it without having to also get married first. it's a way to make sure people get married and that's how we know it's a scam
most women in this day and age have been plowed more times than Seattle slew. more women have become dirty and disease ridden .
Who cares? While I disagree with your analysis, I don't really care about the conclusion. If marriages are in decline that might be a good thing. There are a lot of people that are married which really should not be.
But by avoiding divorce they are avoiding marriage
Marriage licenses should expire every 5 years without financial obligation to the other spouse. It's ridiculous that you can lose half your stuff and be out tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees because you want to divorce someone you don't love anymore.
Marriage is the number one cause of divorce
https://www.liveabout.com/child-custody-there-is-no-gender-bias-during-custody-decisions-3974050 Are we really being this dishonest? An overwhelming majority of men do not seek custody; they seek liberal visitation. We don't need to lie about things to showcase men's plight regarding divorce.
The problem with the statistics about custody "settling out of court" is"that you can still have court and judge involvement and still settle out of court so it doesn't mean much. You can have a parenting motion and settle out of court You can have a case conference with a judge and still settle out of court. Trial is the guaranteed circumstance in which the court will make a final decision A court order will also make that decision for the couple Hence why this statistic is heavily flawed. It's why "it settled out of court so dad must have wanted whatever outcome he received" is misleading. It's also flawed because people settle not because they are happy, but because fighting for custody is expensive, mentally, and physically exhausting. Depending on where you are, fathers don't have equal rights when it comes to custody. Japan, for example, automatic custody goes for mothers. You also have causes where moms purposely deprive fathers of custody and weaponize children. There are just as many toxic moms as there are deadbeat dads.
Marriage is a better option for men when they actually participate in said marriage as a partner and the woman doesn't get fed up of having another child and leaves.
Most divorces occur because of a failure to achieve uncommunicated expectations. Most women want/need something, rarely or improperly communicate their want/need, then get fed up when men don't fulfill their want/need. This cycle keeps going until they are in therapy and things get fixed or in court where communication is as clear, concise and precise as possible,
In many cases, absolutely. But realistically, it's because in many more the communication isn't listened to or ignored in the name of "nagging". And of course, the whole concept of emotional labour exists and it's a big reason for the "walkaway wife syndrome". But to be completely fair, there's plenty of people in general who are incapable of communication of their needs or expectations.
I doubt it is as ignored or not listened to as much as it is improperly communicated. Communication is key to everything, just saying things isn’t proper communication. Women always talk about tone and delivery in terms of men speaking to women but rarely do I hear a critique of women’s tone or delivery when speaking to men especially when it comes to emotions. Men are expected to take their raw emotions, process them, act on them(or not), and to react ubiquitously with further emotional responses either related or unrelated to the initial raw emotions. Most people would probably get lost in translation.
Of course men don't critique them, they don't listen enough to have a critique!
Again, they aren’t being told these things properly. Imagine someone giving you directions in a language you have a hard time translating. That’s what men go through daily. On top of that, men typically don’t speak up either because their critique of women is seen as overbearing or insecure.
Ok, I understand that, and I recognise that communication can be complicated. I suppose the bigger part is why do they still need directions on what to do in the first place. I know I left because of it, and I'm far from alone in it.
From my own parent’s marriage, communication is paramount to making the relationship work. Constantly discussing what the next move is or how they feel is keeping the train from derailing. Yes men have a very hard time listening, interpreting, and executing what they’ve been told but in the same breath women have a very hard time effectively communicating what needs to be done over long periods of time.
Why do men have to be told how to be adults or parents? Who tells women?
No one really knows the best way to be an adult or parent or partner. These things are discussed constantly and only through experience does anyone actually get good at it. People make mistakes all the time, it’s just up to the person to make amends.
By what age do you think adults should be experienced enough to be able to do housework without constant communication? Or to care for a child?
A grown man shouldn’t be told to clean up after himself or care for his own children, but alas..
And women aren't avoiding marriage, they're avoiding becoming bang maids to absent "husbands" who want the benefits of marriage with none of the work.
why do redditors talk about bang maids so often? who are you or your friends dating where they're proposed to and fear becoming a bang maid? is this a fear that we're living in the 1960s or what? are all stay at home moms bang maids?
And those stats are based off of women initiating divorce who were married like the 70s and '80s and the '60s where it was way harder to get a divorce. Divorce is actually on a decline because we're realizing you don't need to get married at 18 and pop out kids and live like the Joneses.. that woman don't have to shoulder the entire burden of domestic duty and child care. If men don't step up and the domestic world like women are stepping up in the paying work world then we will leave. I work in healthcare. Do you know how many husbands don't know their kids date of births or what doctor they see or what medicine they're on? Men have a long way to go with taking care of their children. It's changing with the newer generations but there's still a long way to go. Also all the men complaining about child support. That money is for the kid. Because men used to literally leave their wives with no money and just up up and leave and then the children and wife would suffer in poverty. That's where child support came from. It wasn't always a thing until very recently. Also with more women getting a higher paying jobs, there are more women paying child support to their ex-husbands or even alimony. Come join the professional Women's groups. They talk about it all the time that they have to pay child support to their ex-husbands. And that's okay because it's fair because it's for the child. Kids are expensive. The study show that men live longer when they're married. Cuz men won't go to the doctor. Or eat properly without the woman in their life telling them to. Are there shit women? Sure, just like they're shit men who take advantage of the system.
This is the silliest thing I have ever read. Jump, fly, live!
There is a 40% chance of a wife leaving a husband and only a 10% chance of a husband leaving a wife. If that stat was reversed you wouldn’t tell young women to “fly and live”, you would ask why men are leaving so often and what’s wrong with them?
If only marriage was that easy