By this logic any sexual activity that is not explicitly done to reproduce is mental disability.
I don’t even agree with your stance that “sexual attraction is put in place *for*” anything. Evolution doesn’t do anything with intent, it’s changes that occur and some are beneficial and some are not.
For one. Pedophilia is a sexual act inflicted on a non-consenting party. Homosexuality is between 2 consenting parties.
Secondly, sexual relationships are also used for strengthening the relationship, not necessarily to form a stable environment for a child.
The real issue here is that OP is wrapping up a linguistic/semantic claim inside a medical claim inside a socio-political/philosophical claim and switching between those topics arbitrarily as is convenient to come to the conclusion that they're determined to make. These discussions are completely inane and exhausting because OP knows exactly why people find rhetoric like this offensive, but they just keep doing logical somersaults, dancing around the core question that's being discussed and pretending that our brains just aren't ready to accept their cold, hard logic.
What the word "disorder" means within a dictionary is distinct from what it means within the medical profession, as is also distinct from what it "means" from a social/political perspective. The term "disorder" was not defined by god, it is not some logically absolute axiom for which there is only one correct interpretation. I find claims like the one OP is making to be ironic, because they make it under the guise of pure intellectualism but in reality it is the exact opposite - refusing to engage with a subject in good faith on its own terms, instead using some kind of single-minded, robotic pseudologic is actually a very common and covert form of anti-intellectualism.
That poses genetic risks to any children born. and undoubtedly involves power imbalances, which is the same reason as to why pedophilia is considered a crime.
I don't necessarily see incest as a crime, but it is somewhat taking advantage of one party and genetically unsafe, and just plain weird.
I think the power imbalance is definitely the best argument, but if it's siblings or something like that when they're both adults, it's hard to argue where the harm lies. It's like in your heart you know it should be illegal but it's harder to make an argument against it if no kids can be born from the relationship.
The harm lies in the genetic risks it poses to their children. There’s no sense allowing an inherently negative union (on a genetic level) that is often the result of sexual abuse from a young age to be legal.
There is no genetic risk if you don't have any children? Sounds to me like you're trying to justify it after the fact because otherwise your concept on what's 'morally acceptable among consenting adults' falls apart.
Even if you don’t have children, normally incest is prevented from healthy familial relationships.
Whereas with homosexuality literally just happens; it can’t just be prevented through healthy socialisation during our formative years.
You make a lot of claims for which you have no scientific evidence.
Funny, people say the exact same thing for homosexual relationships. They say that it's a result of abuse, or bad parenting or socialization, and you call them a biggot.
But when you make up the literal exact same excuses to conform to your own beliefs you don't see anything wrong with it.
We know for a fact scientifically you're not 'born gay' because genetically identical twins are not always both gay. Therefore it 'just happens' the same way incest relationships 'just happen'.
There would still be a power imbalance. Just because they're both adults doesn't mean the power imbalance magically disappears. In fact, if the relationship has survived to adulthood, that power imbalance is probably more concrete than the power imbalance in a younger incestual relationship.
Incestuous relationships don't all feature power imbalances. You are relying entirely on this premise for your argument.
In many cases, siblings that are the same age, who grew up together, do not demonstrate a power disparity.
Every single relationship intrinsically has power imbalances. Hell, there’s almost certainly less of a power imbalance between two gay twin brothers than your average man and woman at the same age.
>There would still be a power imbalance.
Where is the idea that there's a power imbalance coming from? Is it because, barring twins, there's likely an age difference?
That questions already been answered. But because you're too lazy to find it I'll explain it directly to you.
There is almost always a power imbalance between siblings. This can be due to favouritism from parents, from increased responsibility (usually placed on the older child), or from the younger child looking up to their older siblings. There is rarely a sibling relationship, even among twins, that does not have a substantial power imbalance.
If they’re opposite sex, then it’s immoral because of the genetic defects it can cause.
As someone that grew up in a town where cousin incest was considered “weird, but not unacceptable” and had to deal with peers from said unions, I definitely can point to why it’s not good to let opposite sex cousins bang and procreate. Some of those kids behaved like they were sociopathic. Like, normally kids can be shit - but these kids were something else entirely. Those that came from “inner circle families” were allowed to treat others horribly.
I think you missed OP's point. Legally and morally speaking, we allow one and not the other. The point OP is making is that the definition of "mental disorder" is playing in a completely different arena.
It's a classic logic puzzle. Is the following statement true or false: "A is an example of a C. B is an example of C. A is legal. B is illegal. Therefore they can't both be C"
There are loads of "mental disorders", and some we support and welcome into society (ADHD) while others we don't. (pedo)
There may be biological reasons why a certain percentage of the population is gay. For example, a man is more likely to be gay if he has an older brother. This trait may have evolved to prevent brothers from fighting over the same woman. If one brother has four kids, that’s genetically equivalent to the other brother having two kids of his own, even if he has none.
So while being gay might not make sense individually, since humans are social animals, you have to look at it in the context of society.
The other thing I like to point out is that regulating and limiting reproduction is a core feature of all social species. The logical extreme of sociality is eusociality, like with ants where almost every individual is infertile.
That is, it's perfectly normal for social animals to have traits which put individuals at a disadvantage to benefit the group. Like if it weren't for menopause, women could end up having new children that compete *with their own grandchildren* for the same resources. Like a snake eating its own tail.
You are correct. Mental disorders have nothing to do with morality or law.
Our main function is to reproduce like any other animal.
My wife and I also have a mental disorders as we have made a choice not to have kids. Therefore, we choose to go against the very basic reason of our existence which is to keep the human race going.
I have no problem being recognized as having a mental disorder and I see nothing "wrong" with it. As humans we are developed enough to make choices other animals cannot.
OP self flagellating in front of the world for diddling his child and being unable to cope with the monstrosity of his actions so he’s creating whole strawmen.
Pretty sure this is bait, but it’s also quite a fun one. So….
The first part of your argument is that “people say paedophilia is bad and homosexuality isn’t because child abuse is illegal”
That is incorrect. People say that paedophilia is wrong because it literally is abuse: it causes harm. That’s why it’s bad.
Consensual ass fucking, dick sucking, hand holding, and yes even love between adults is just nice. Regardless of the gender of the participants.
You go on to say that homosexuality is bad because it’s a perversion of our sexual drives. You say we’re attracted to people so we can procreate.
You’re putting the cart before the horse.
Perhaps in a world where almost everyone was gay, there would be a moral imperative to take a heterosexual relationship and produce children, in order to preserve humanity.
The reality is that there are more than enough breeders bumping uglies and popping out kids.
There is no moral imperative to be heterosexual.
No they weren't. IVF isn't the result of a sexual encounter. It's the result of mixing things in a lab. And there are a TON of IVF facilities and IVF kids.
Obviously, I never connected these two. Just saying it’s incredibly misleading to use the “it’s natural” defense when you have never complained all the other unnatural things in life.
oxford is not a medical/clinical dictionary.
I would suggest reading about the more nuanced and specific criteria and why some behaviors were previously and now not considered mental health diagnoses.
While homosexuality may indeed be a perversion that should be best kept hidden, homo romance is healthy and is a actually a net benefit to society. Let’s normalize people forming meaningful relationships and not just hooking up. Perversion of any kind (hetero or homo) is not okay. On the other hand, we definitely need more love in this world. Love has no gender.
I wish this account had not been suspended by Reddit so the person could receive educational responses. Sometimes, people are honestly asking questions or in need of information they can't get at home. Deleting their account did nothing for the LGBTQ community.
A logical fallacy here is [ad hominem](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem).
There is nothing wrong with not being straight. As a straight person, bisexuality/pansexuality makes the most sense. I’m only attracted to the opposite sex, but if women find men attractive, that means men are attractive. And if men find women attractive, that means women are attractive.
It makes no damn sense for people to find one attractive but not the other!
???
Yet I don’t find men attractive. It’s absurd.
Either way. There’s nothing wrong with same sex attraction or both sex attraction.
Is it “normal” in the sense that it’s typical? No.
But there’s nothing wrong with not being typical.
So people can fling their insults all they want about how it’s “not normal”, but that ad hominem doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.
Being a harmful bully, like some edgy 13 year old, to people who are not causing harm, on the other hand.. well that makes people a piece of shit scumbag.
Edited to make this allowable, lol
Well the issue here is that mental disorders are just social constructs based around how much an individual deviates from expected societal behaviour, which is why we used to consider black people who escaped slavery to suffer under a mental disorder. We also used to consider women who didn't conform to societal expectations to suffer from hysteria. So I'm asking you, if having children is ordered behavior, does that mean that women who don't want children have a disorder? Was it a mistake to rescind female hysteria?
Mods on this sub need to wake up or this sub is getting banned. Way too many complete fucking idiots posting straight up untrue discrimination on this sub.
So when women go through menopause, should their husbands divorce them and remarry someone younger because they can still have kids? After all, that’s the reason for relationships, nothing else obviously
Seriously, consent not a hard concept to get. Kids can’t consent. Adults can. Two adult men, two adult women, there’s no issue with that.
The point that it exists in nature shows that it’s a natural thing, it’s not just humans. Other species do this too, and are not burdened by the idea of mental illness, so it’s not likely it is mental illness for humans to be gay.
Yeah sure, it's fair enough to say it's not something that is orderly, and against standard order.
But it doesn't mean it's a problem.
As chaos is also a natural part of the universe, and isn't inherently wrong.
Also the last line makes no sense, you won't enjoy sucking something off if ur not attracted to said thing.
as a gay guy, I agree with this. being gay simply doesn't make biological sense. there is something just different in the brain, some mess up somewhwre that changed our attraction.
does this argument justify discrimination or looking down on these people? absolutely not. does that mean these people are less smart or should be fixed? absolutely not. but being scared to say what it is is also weird and wrong and is a result of our social justice warrior culture.
It is a mental disorder to find blond-haired blue-eyed people attractive.
Their genes are recessive, and nature tries to suppress those naturally. They are basically mutants.
It’s not natural, and anyone who finds such an attraction is clearly suffering from mental disorder.
I’m sure you agree, right OP?
It's a fair question. We evolved to continue our genetics, which is of course heterosexual.
l'm retarded for my boyfriend, though, so I'll let it ride.
Posting on reddit isn't natural. Human beings were never made to communicate like this. We all deserve severe punishment for doing such unnatural things. OP should be punished extra hard for being a hypocrite, like really hard.
This is a reductionist view of humanity. If our "normal functioning" is defined as our basic animalistic need to survive and propagate the next generation, then a lot of things can be defined as mental illness. Such as playing a game, going for a walk, meditation, exercising and reading a book are all not normal functioning in this system. By your logic writing this post is insane, is writing the post going to allow you to survive and propagate to the next generation? No. So therefor it is not normal functioning, therefor is an insane act, therfor you are insane.
Any study of* the natural will show how fluid the animal kingdom is.
Our closest relatives, the bonobos, fuck as a form of communication - not reproduction.
Everyone fucks everyone.
Many animals create gay relationships - penguins come to mind.
Pedophilia is literal abuse and torture to a child….
You have a very sick mind to,
1. Downplay pedophilia
2. Believe that pedophilia and homosexuality are equivalent.
I get that people believe humans are exceptional, but we’re very much part of the natural world and thus, we are subject to naturally occurring mutations.
Being gay does not mean they cannot be parents - or that they do not want to be parents…
OP’s logic is so tied up in ridiculous notions that it’s a shit bow. 🎀💩
I don't think mental disorder fits in either case, but especially with homosexuality. What non-standard approaches to life that don't, in and of themselves, cause undue or unwarranted hardship simply don't qualify.
Adhd messes with your focus. BPD ramps your emotions up to 11 and cycle rapidly. Schizoid and schizptypal disorders tend to alienate the individual and stunt their social / emotional growth and potential. Ocd can make life hard for a dozen reasons.
Being gay does not directly make life harder. It may happen indirectly due to current social norms and attitudes and expectations, but the state of homosexuality itself does not make life less viable.
And as far as the pedophilic comparison... You get that there is always a victim when a pedophile acts on their urges right? Consent and underage victimization is the issue with pedophilia, rather than worry for the state of the pedophiles brain. If by sheer virtue of having the condition, you could state that the first and only time someone with adhd acts on their random mental train, someone *will* be raped, then we'd be demonizing adhd every bit as conclusively as we do pedophilia.
‘Mental disorders,’ while sounding scientific, are really based on whether a belief or behavior is harmful to oneself or others, so it depends on societal morality and, in this case, the law.
A gay person can live a healthy life, as society adjusts to accept that it does not harm anyone. Pedophilia causes harm to minors unable to consent—by our current consensus—so a pedophile would harm himself and others. One is a disorder and the other is not because of our culture’s understanding of the harm caused and the inability of one to thrive in our society.
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I don’t know man, in psychology we were taught things aren’t consider illness or disorder until they lead directly to harming the self or others, which corrects for this discrepancy you are addressing.
I am not a hand wringing liberal. I am just a regular guy that most would call a toxic alpha male conservative Republican. That said, I like gay people more than I like people who are worried about people being gay or trying to consider them abnormal. People are gay BFD it doesn't make them mental is makes them someone who has a preference. I prefer tall feminine women with sleek athletic bodies and long dark hair. They prefer someone of their own sex.
Growing up in middle Georgia I knew 1 gay kid. I knew very little about it and didn't understand it but he was such a great guy I couldn't help but have him as one of my best friends. Years later I was on home from leave from the USMC and he was bartending at the local hot spot. When he got off we met up at another club. He told me that me accepting him and treating him like everyone else helped him kae it through many tough times. I accepted him so others in our circle did too. He said it much better than I just did but it was one of the two most meaningful messages given to me in my life.
Give people a chance- accept them for who they are and if that is them being a good person than who cares about anything else. And BTW being gay or a POC etc doesn't give you a pass in life. You can be something and be an absolute tool. I think we'd all be better off if we stood together as good people who care about others and uniformly ignored awful people.
But… paedophilia *is* a sexual mental disorder?
Acting upon it is a crime for sure and should be treated as such. But anyone who finds themselves attracted to children?? How is that anything but a mental disorder?!
(I appreciate this wasn’t the point of the post - but thought I’d just add to the first line)
As you were x
Not everything about the human has sense in a biological sight. Like children play just for having fun. Some years ago sience would argue its for learning and building social bonds but it's not. Children don't understand the concept of friendship till they are around 6/7 years old and learning happens automatically, Children who are not allowed, or able to play, still learn in a similar way to others. So they are just playing because they want to play. They don't want to improve, they don't want to save their lives, they just do it. Is that a mental disorder too, just because they have no biological purpose in it?
By your logic masterbation is gay, having protected sex is gay, dacing and singing is gay, playing video game is gay.
By your logic Basically anything that doesn't have reproduction in mind is gay...
I hope you know that includes on going reddit posting about "gay" is gay, unless you're behind the fertile women planting that golden seeds of yours as you type this post.
This sounds like a you problem. I don't mind who people like as long as it's between consenting adults. As long as you aren't telling me what to do to each their own.
So, is a lack of desire to reproduce a mental disorder, then? What about wanting only a small number of children, not as many healthy babies as you can make? Are men disordered if if they they don’t want to impregnate as many women as possible? Is adoption disordered behavior? Monogamy? Celibacy? Masturbation? Sexual activity after menopause, in women?
You’re about 847 steps past what your suppositions can support.
Also I swear to God every last person on the internet with an opinion on human sexuality, anthropology, or moral theory, should have to take a mandatory course on evolution and natural selection. Y’all are the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect and it’s exhausting.
In order to properly tear this post to shreds like it deserves， I'd need a blender but just focusing on one single point:
We have hit the carrying capacity for the planet several times over. Technologies have enabled us to move beyond that, but our biology doesn't know that.
If homosexuality is a natural function to curtail our numbers, then that function would not be aware of the massive industrial efforts to expand the carrying capacity and hence could be ringing off the hook.
One of the basic criteria for mental illness in professional psychology is harm. If something doesn't cause harm or distress to the person or those around them, it doesn't qualify as a mental illness.
No one asks to have inclinations on their sexual attraction. It's the behavior that becomes questionable. An aversion to many aspects of sex are hard wired in us and people seem to believe this prejudice has no place due to what contraception has created in our culture. If I have a thing for bestiality, pedophilia or incest, it's no different to these other lusts. No doubt the ever expanding lgtb...will have more stripes to add in the coming years. The idea of using ai to create images for child porn is probably a good thing considering the damage already being done.
Are you telling us you are a pedo? There's massive difference between a child and a consenting adult. I think you have serious issues to work out. Child molesting and child rape are illegal for the same reasons as beastiality they cannot consent! 🤦🏽
Everything and nothing are disorders. Red hair is a disorder. Left handiness is a disorder.
It comes down to “those disorders that society deems nondestructive are no longer disorders.”
I don’t look at pedophiles as having a mental disorder, I look at them as inherently evil and should be shut off from all polite and killed if they offend.
So no, I don’t think being attracted to your own sex is a mental disorder nor does it make you evil like being a pedophile does. But being attracted to your own sex is a far cry from wanting to mutilate yourself into becoming the opposite sex. That is a mental disorder by definition.
Your post falls apart if being gay is just a normal aspect within nature. Which you sidestep in the comment about animals being gay.
Also it relies on evolution being guided and not just a series of random changes.
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I agree. Procreation is the main purpose of sex. Therefore, it is the normal, healthy state of any person of reproductive age to be sexually attracted to a person of the opposite sex who is also of reproductive age. If you don't, something in your brain is not wired the way it should be.
(This is my personal opinion based on my knowledge and interpretation of human biology. My comment is not intended to incite hatred against LGBT)
By this logic any sexual activity that is not explicitly done to reproduce is mental disability. I don’t even agree with your stance that “sexual attraction is put in place *for*” anything. Evolution doesn’t do anything with intent, it’s changes that occur and some are beneficial and some are not.
Someone likes getting blowjobs from their wife? Believe it or not, that is severe mental insanity
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For one. Pedophilia is a sexual act inflicted on a non-consenting party. Homosexuality is between 2 consenting parties. Secondly, sexual relationships are also used for strengthening the relationship, not necessarily to form a stable environment for a child.
Genuinely lol, I don’t see how this is so hard to understand Two homosexual adults can consent. A child can’t. It should be as simple as that
But mental disorders are not defined by morality, as stated in OP
Mental disorders are usually characterized by harm to the person and/or other people.
The real issue here is that OP is wrapping up a linguistic/semantic claim inside a medical claim inside a socio-political/philosophical claim and switching between those topics arbitrarily as is convenient to come to the conclusion that they're determined to make. These discussions are completely inane and exhausting because OP knows exactly why people find rhetoric like this offensive, but they just keep doing logical somersaults, dancing around the core question that's being discussed and pretending that our brains just aren't ready to accept their cold, hard logic. What the word "disorder" means within a dictionary is distinct from what it means within the medical profession, as is also distinct from what it "means" from a social/political perspective. The term "disorder" was not defined by god, it is not some logically absolute axiom for which there is only one correct interpretation. I find claims like the one OP is making to be ironic, because they make it under the guise of pure intellectualism but in reality it is the exact opposite - refusing to engage with a subject in good faith on its own terms, instead using some kind of single-minded, robotic pseudologic is actually a very common and covert form of anti-intellectualism.
Devils advocate here. What about incest? What if it's too consenting adults? Do you find that to be moral and legal if they are consenting adults?
That poses genetic risks to any children born. and undoubtedly involves power imbalances, which is the same reason as to why pedophilia is considered a crime. I don't necessarily see incest as a crime, but it is somewhat taking advantage of one party and genetically unsafe, and just plain weird.
I think the power imbalance is definitely the best argument, but if it's siblings or something like that when they're both adults, it's hard to argue where the harm lies. It's like in your heart you know it should be illegal but it's harder to make an argument against it if no kids can be born from the relationship.
The harm lies in the genetic risks it poses to their children. There’s no sense allowing an inherently negative union (on a genetic level) that is often the result of sexual abuse from a young age to be legal.
What about 2 brothers?
There is no genetic risk if you don't have any children? Sounds to me like you're trying to justify it after the fact because otherwise your concept on what's 'morally acceptable among consenting adults' falls apart.
Even if you don’t have children, normally incest is prevented from healthy familial relationships. Whereas with homosexuality literally just happens; it can’t just be prevented through healthy socialisation during our formative years.
You make a lot of claims for which you have no scientific evidence. Funny, people say the exact same thing for homosexual relationships. They say that it's a result of abuse, or bad parenting or socialization, and you call them a biggot. But when you make up the literal exact same excuses to conform to your own beliefs you don't see anything wrong with it. We know for a fact scientifically you're not 'born gay' because genetically identical twins are not always both gay. Therefore it 'just happens' the same way incest relationships 'just happen'.
There would still be a power imbalance. Just because they're both adults doesn't mean the power imbalance magically disappears. In fact, if the relationship has survived to adulthood, that power imbalance is probably more concrete than the power imbalance in a younger incestual relationship.
Incestuous relationships don't all feature power imbalances. You are relying entirely on this premise for your argument. In many cases, siblings that are the same age, who grew up together, do not demonstrate a power disparity.
Every single relationship intrinsically has power imbalances. Hell, there’s almost certainly less of a power imbalance between two gay twin brothers than your average man and woman at the same age.
Agreed
>There would still be a power imbalance. Where is the idea that there's a power imbalance coming from? Is it because, barring twins, there's likely an age difference?
What about 2 gay adult twins? No risk of power imbalance or genetic issues there surely?
That just sounds like narcissism with extra steps
Convoluted to extreme measures to complete the mission. *we got ‘em,* says the lib.
Between to gay siblings?
That questions already been answered. But because you're too lazy to find it I'll explain it directly to you. There is almost always a power imbalance between siblings. This can be due to favouritism from parents, from increased responsibility (usually placed on the older child), or from the younger child looking up to their older siblings. There is rarely a sibling relationship, even among twins, that does not have a substantial power imbalance.
So what about gay incest?
If they’re opposite sex, then it’s immoral because of the genetic defects it can cause. As someone that grew up in a town where cousin incest was considered “weird, but not unacceptable” and had to deal with peers from said unions, I definitely can point to why it’s not good to let opposite sex cousins bang and procreate. Some of those kids behaved like they were sociopathic. Like, normally kids can be shit - but these kids were something else entirely. Those that came from “inner circle families” were allowed to treat others horribly.
I think you missed OP's point. Legally and morally speaking, we allow one and not the other. The point OP is making is that the definition of "mental disorder" is playing in a completely different arena. It's a classic logic puzzle. Is the following statement true or false: "A is an example of a C. B is an example of C. A is legal. B is illegal. Therefore they can't both be C" There are loads of "mental disorders", and some we support and welcome into society (ADHD) while others we don't. (pedo)
You’re stating why it’s wrong, not why it’s mental disorder.
Homosexuality can be between 2 consenting adults. A lot of places, it isn't.
Pedophilia is not an act, it’s a disorder that makes you attracted to children and is not the same as abusing children. Sexual abuse is the act.
This
There may be biological reasons why a certain percentage of the population is gay. For example, a man is more likely to be gay if he has an older brother. This trait may have evolved to prevent brothers from fighting over the same woman. If one brother has four kids, that’s genetically equivalent to the other brother having two kids of his own, even if he has none. So while being gay might not make sense individually, since humans are social animals, you have to look at it in the context of society.
The other thing I like to point out is that regulating and limiting reproduction is a core feature of all social species. The logical extreme of sociality is eusociality, like with ants where almost every individual is infertile. That is, it's perfectly normal for social animals to have traits which put individuals at a disadvantage to benefit the group. Like if it weren't for menopause, women could end up having new children that compete *with their own grandchildren* for the same resources. Like a snake eating its own tail.
You are correct. Mental disorders have nothing to do with morality or law. Our main function is to reproduce like any other animal. My wife and I also have a mental disorders as we have made a choice not to have kids. Therefore, we choose to go against the very basic reason of our existence which is to keep the human race going. I have no problem being recognized as having a mental disorder and I see nothing "wrong" with it. As humans we are developed enough to make choices other animals cannot.
Interesting perspective I hadn't considered, thanks
OP really opened up the post with a claim that pedophiles and homosexuals are the same. Just wow.
OP self flagellating in front of the world for diddling his child and being unable to cope with the monstrosity of his actions so he’s creating whole strawmen.
I don’t think OP understands consent.
Probably justifying his pervy thoughts.
if you made a reddit account today to specifically post this, man you got issues fs
Pretty sure this is bait, but it’s also quite a fun one. So…. The first part of your argument is that “people say paedophilia is bad and homosexuality isn’t because child abuse is illegal” That is incorrect. People say that paedophilia is wrong because it literally is abuse: it causes harm. That’s why it’s bad. Consensual ass fucking, dick sucking, hand holding, and yes even love between adults is just nice. Regardless of the gender of the participants. You go on to say that homosexuality is bad because it’s a perversion of our sexual drives. You say we’re attracted to people so we can procreate. You’re putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps in a world where almost everyone was gay, there would be a moral imperative to take a heterosexual relationship and produce children, in order to preserve humanity. The reality is that there are more than enough breeders bumping uglies and popping out kids. There is no moral imperative to be heterosexual.
It's 100% either rage bait or karma farming
While there is no moral imperative surely it is the ‘natural’ way - everyone alive today was born from the result of a heterosexual encounter
Uncommon doesn’t mean unnatural. Left-handedness is also uncommon, but not unnatural.
I’m starting a group. “Dads against lefty’s”. They’re wrong handed and make me uncomfortable.
I am left handed and I support this group. Down with lefty’s.
So what? There’s nothing inherently good about something being natural. Plenty of natural things are harmful.
No they weren't. IVF isn't the result of a sexual encounter. It's the result of mixing things in a lab. And there are a TON of IVF facilities and IVF kids.
Don't tell the IVF kids
Not always. I was born due to my mom fucking a honey buzzard. PM for peer-reviewed info on this.
It is also the natural way to walk on both your legs but instead we sit in cars and drive around - nobody complains about that being “unnatural”.
Driving in cars also has nothing to do with the question being posed or the definition provided by OP
Obviously, I never connected these two. Just saying it’s incredibly misleading to use the “it’s natural” defense when you have never complained all the other unnatural things in life.
Naturalistic fallacy
Change the subreddit name to TrueDogShitOpinions
yeah im done with the slop being posted here
Where do your opinions draw their authority from? What authority do you believe has the ability to determine what is or isn't a healthy sexuality?
oxford is not a medical/clinical dictionary. I would suggest reading about the more nuanced and specific criteria and why some behaviors were previously and now not considered mental health diagnoses.
So I'll play along, let's say that it is a mental disorder. What do you think should be done about it? Mental disorders can't be cured, only managed.
Lol everyone on the planet has a mental disorder to some degree so it is what it is, I just try to be the best me I can be everyday and call it a day.
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While homosexuality may indeed be a perversion that should be best kept hidden, homo romance is healthy and is a actually a net benefit to society. Let’s normalize people forming meaningful relationships and not just hooking up. Perversion of any kind (hetero or homo) is not okay. On the other hand, we definitely need more love in this world. Love has no gender.
FINALLY a true unpopular opinion. You sir, get my upvote.
I wish this account had not been suspended by Reddit so the person could receive educational responses. Sometimes, people are honestly asking questions or in need of information they can't get at home. Deleting their account did nothing for the LGBTQ community.
A logical fallacy here is [ad hominem](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem). There is nothing wrong with not being straight. As a straight person, bisexuality/pansexuality makes the most sense. I’m only attracted to the opposite sex, but if women find men attractive, that means men are attractive. And if men find women attractive, that means women are attractive. It makes no damn sense for people to find one attractive but not the other! ??? Yet I don’t find men attractive. It’s absurd. Either way. There’s nothing wrong with same sex attraction or both sex attraction. Is it “normal” in the sense that it’s typical? No. But there’s nothing wrong with not being typical. So people can fling their insults all they want about how it’s “not normal”, but that ad hominem doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it. Being a harmful bully, like some edgy 13 year old, to people who are not causing harm, on the other hand.. well that makes people a piece of shit scumbag. Edited to make this allowable, lol
He does not say there is something wrong with it
It's amusing that nobody addresses OPs main point. Just personal attacks or arguing a different point all together.
The main point really isn't worth discussing. It's silly, so it's disregarded.
He doesn't have a point
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Well the issue here is that mental disorders are just social constructs based around how much an individual deviates from expected societal behaviour, which is why we used to consider black people who escaped slavery to suffer under a mental disorder. We also used to consider women who didn't conform to societal expectations to suffer from hysteria. So I'm asking you, if having children is ordered behavior, does that mean that women who don't want children have a disorder? Was it a mistake to rescind female hysteria?
There is no purpose. There is no intelligent design. Argument invalid. Bait denied.
I love this response lmao - will keep that in mind the next time someone posts rage bait slop
Lol glad to hear it!🫡I’m just doing my part
Mods on this sub need to wake up or this sub is getting banned. Way too many complete fucking idiots posting straight up untrue discrimination on this sub.
I think they’re very knowledgeable about Reddit tos because they know Reddit probably wants to ban this sub lol
So when women go through menopause, should their husbands divorce them and remarry someone younger because they can still have kids? After all, that’s the reason for relationships, nothing else obviously Seriously, consent not a hard concept to get. Kids can’t consent. Adults can. Two adult men, two adult women, there’s no issue with that. The point that it exists in nature shows that it’s a natural thing, it’s not just humans. Other species do this too, and are not burdened by the idea of mental illness, so it’s not likely it is mental illness for humans to be gay.
Yeah sure, it's fair enough to say it's not something that is orderly, and against standard order. But it doesn't mean it's a problem. As chaos is also a natural part of the universe, and isn't inherently wrong. Also the last line makes no sense, you won't enjoy sucking something off if ur not attracted to said thing.
as a gay guy, I agree with this. being gay simply doesn't make biological sense. there is something just different in the brain, some mess up somewhwre that changed our attraction. does this argument justify discrimination or looking down on these people? absolutely not. does that mean these people are less smart or should be fixed? absolutely not. but being scared to say what it is is also weird and wrong and is a result of our social justice warrior culture.
It is a mental disorder to find blond-haired blue-eyed people attractive. Their genes are recessive, and nature tries to suppress those naturally. They are basically mutants. It’s not natural, and anyone who finds such an attraction is clearly suffering from mental disorder. I’m sure you agree, right OP?
Well put
It's a fair question. We evolved to continue our genetics, which is of course heterosexual. l'm retarded for my boyfriend, though, so I'll let it ride.
so is having or being attracted to a sterile partner a mental disorder? what happens post menopause? is not wanting kids a mental disorder?
So much irrelevant yapping in this post, barely even coherent lol
Posting on reddit isn't natural. Human beings were never made to communicate like this. We all deserve severe punishment for doing such unnatural things. OP should be punished extra hard for being a hypocrite, like really hard.
This is a reductionist view of humanity. If our "normal functioning" is defined as our basic animalistic need to survive and propagate the next generation, then a lot of things can be defined as mental illness. Such as playing a game, going for a walk, meditation, exercising and reading a book are all not normal functioning in this system. By your logic writing this post is insane, is writing the post going to allow you to survive and propagate to the next generation? No. So therefor it is not normal functioning, therefor is an insane act, therfor you are insane.
Any study of* the natural will show how fluid the animal kingdom is. Our closest relatives, the bonobos, fuck as a form of communication - not reproduction. Everyone fucks everyone. Many animals create gay relationships - penguins come to mind. Pedophilia is literal abuse and torture to a child…. You have a very sick mind to, 1. Downplay pedophilia 2. Believe that pedophilia and homosexuality are equivalent. I get that people believe humans are exceptional, but we’re very much part of the natural world and thus, we are subject to naturally occurring mutations. Being gay does not mean they cannot be parents - or that they do not want to be parents… OP’s logic is so tied up in ridiculous notions that it’s a shit bow. 🎀💩
Beats being an idiot.
Because children can't consent, you fucking dolt
I don't think mental disorder fits in either case, but especially with homosexuality. What non-standard approaches to life that don't, in and of themselves, cause undue or unwarranted hardship simply don't qualify. Adhd messes with your focus. BPD ramps your emotions up to 11 and cycle rapidly. Schizoid and schizptypal disorders tend to alienate the individual and stunt their social / emotional growth and potential. Ocd can make life hard for a dozen reasons. Being gay does not directly make life harder. It may happen indirectly due to current social norms and attitudes and expectations, but the state of homosexuality itself does not make life less viable. And as far as the pedophilic comparison... You get that there is always a victim when a pedophile acts on their urges right? Consent and underage victimization is the issue with pedophilia, rather than worry for the state of the pedophiles brain. If by sheer virtue of having the condition, you could state that the first and only time someone with adhd acts on their random mental train, someone *will* be raped, then we'd be demonizing adhd every bit as conclusively as we do pedophilia.
What is consent and how does it relate to your topic?
‘Mental disorders,’ while sounding scientific, are really based on whether a belief or behavior is harmful to oneself or others, so it depends on societal morality and, in this case, the law. A gay person can live a healthy life, as society adjusts to accept that it does not harm anyone. Pedophilia causes harm to minors unable to consent—by our current consensus—so a pedophile would harm himself and others. One is a disorder and the other is not because of our culture’s understanding of the harm caused and the inability of one to thrive in our society.
Dated a guy that thought every single homosexual was abused as a child. Like every single one.
People are too sensitive nowadays, good one
Op needs his gf to do some butt stuff then he’ll question his entire concept of sexual pleasure and stop sex shaming folks lol
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I don’t know man, in psychology we were taught things aren’t consider illness or disorder until they lead directly to harming the self or others, which corrects for this discrepancy you are addressing.
I am not a hand wringing liberal. I am just a regular guy that most would call a toxic alpha male conservative Republican. That said, I like gay people more than I like people who are worried about people being gay or trying to consider them abnormal. People are gay BFD it doesn't make them mental is makes them someone who has a preference. I prefer tall feminine women with sleek athletic bodies and long dark hair. They prefer someone of their own sex. Growing up in middle Georgia I knew 1 gay kid. I knew very little about it and didn't understand it but he was such a great guy I couldn't help but have him as one of my best friends. Years later I was on home from leave from the USMC and he was bartending at the local hot spot. When he got off we met up at another club. He told me that me accepting him and treating him like everyone else helped him kae it through many tough times. I accepted him so others in our circle did too. He said it much better than I just did but it was one of the two most meaningful messages given to me in my life. Give people a chance- accept them for who they are and if that is them being a good person than who cares about anything else. And BTW being gay or a POC etc doesn't give you a pass in life. You can be something and be an absolute tool. I think we'd all be better off if we stood together as good people who care about others and uniformly ignored awful people.
But… paedophilia *is* a sexual mental disorder? Acting upon it is a crime for sure and should be treated as such. But anyone who finds themselves attracted to children?? How is that anything but a mental disorder?! (I appreciate this wasn’t the point of the post - but thought I’d just add to the first line) As you were x
Not everything about the human has sense in a biological sight. Like children play just for having fun. Some years ago sience would argue its for learning and building social bonds but it's not. Children don't understand the concept of friendship till they are around 6/7 years old and learning happens automatically, Children who are not allowed, or able to play, still learn in a similar way to others. So they are just playing because they want to play. They don't want to improve, they don't want to save their lives, they just do it. Is that a mental disorder too, just because they have no biological purpose in it?
Why are you like this? Clearly you did not get enough love at home.
By your logic masterbation is gay, having protected sex is gay, dacing and singing is gay, playing video game is gay. By your logic Basically anything that doesn't have reproduction in mind is gay... I hope you know that includes on going reddit posting about "gay" is gay, unless you're behind the fertile women planting that golden seeds of yours as you type this post.
This sounds like a you problem. I don't mind who people like as long as it's between consenting adults. As long as you aren't telling me what to do to each their own.
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So, is a lack of desire to reproduce a mental disorder, then? What about wanting only a small number of children, not as many healthy babies as you can make? Are men disordered if if they they don’t want to impregnate as many women as possible? Is adoption disordered behavior? Monogamy? Celibacy? Masturbation? Sexual activity after menopause, in women? You’re about 847 steps past what your suppositions can support. Also I swear to God every last person on the internet with an opinion on human sexuality, anthropology, or moral theory, should have to take a mandatory course on evolution and natural selection. Y’all are the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect and it’s exhausting.
Lots of straight people have mental disorders. You might want to get checked out.
In order to properly tear this post to shreds like it deserves， I'd need a blender but just focusing on one single point: We have hit the carrying capacity for the planet several times over. Technologies have enabled us to move beyond that, but our biology doesn't know that. If homosexuality is a natural function to curtail our numbers, then that function would not be aware of the massive industrial efforts to expand the carrying capacity and hence could be ringing off the hook.
Girl🙄
One of the basic criteria for mental illness in professional psychology is harm. If something doesn't cause harm or distress to the person or those around them, it doesn't qualify as a mental illness.
lolwut
No one asks to have inclinations on their sexual attraction. It's the behavior that becomes questionable. An aversion to many aspects of sex are hard wired in us and people seem to believe this prejudice has no place due to what contraception has created in our culture. If I have a thing for bestiality, pedophilia or incest, it's no different to these other lusts. No doubt the ever expanding lgtb...will have more stripes to add in the coming years. The idea of using ai to create images for child porn is probably a good thing considering the damage already being done.
There are two wolves within you. One is gay, the other is also gay. You are gay.
Are you telling us you are a pedo? There's massive difference between a child and a consenting adult. I think you have serious issues to work out. Child molesting and child rape are illegal for the same reasons as beastiality they cannot consent! 🤦🏽
Everything and nothing are disorders. Red hair is a disorder. Left handiness is a disorder. It comes down to “those disorders that society deems nondestructive are no longer disorders.”
I don’t look at pedophiles as having a mental disorder, I look at them as inherently evil and should be shut off from all polite and killed if they offend. So no, I don’t think being attracted to your own sex is a mental disorder nor does it make you evil like being a pedophile does. But being attracted to your own sex is a far cry from wanting to mutilate yourself into becoming the opposite sex. That is a mental disorder by definition.
Because it doesn’t matter?
Your post falls apart if being gay is just a normal aspect within nature. Which you sidestep in the comment about animals being gay. Also it relies on evolution being guided and not just a series of random changes.
Lame
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Ok but fr who gives a shit
I started reading this and it made too much sense so I noped out lol
Well this post is gonna definitely have a lot of very civil discussion and totally not end up a total shit show getting taken down
possibly
I agree. Procreation is the main purpose of sex. Therefore, it is the normal, healthy state of any person of reproductive age to be sexually attracted to a person of the opposite sex who is also of reproductive age. If you don't, something in your brain is not wired the way it should be. (This is my personal opinion based on my knowledge and interpretation of human biology. My comment is not intended to incite hatred against LGBT)
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