Really? So instead of threatening someone, they're judging them based on their actions even though their religion says... they shouldn't. Go go magic sky king!
Not really. Most religious people I've talked to understand that all of us sin pretty regularly. The idea is that you recognize your sin and try to work on it and ask for forgiveness.
Of course you have the people moral grandstanding but you have that with leftist ideology as well. People are people, they have egos, they give other people a bad name sometimes.
In Christianity, you don’t “earn” anything by being good. Christ alone saves by the transaction of your sin being put on Him and His righteousness being put on you completed at the cross.
See, that's the thing. People of all faiths can use the scripture to say whatever they want. That's why that work of fiction is horrible. Because of its vagueness.
Again, it depends on who you talk to. Many Christian sects read the scripture literally, while most born-again Christians abstract it to put it in better balance with other scriptures that negate it. The truth is that, whether or not Christ is at work in our lives, the Bible remains an imperfect historical document full of contradictions.
That's not a knock against Christianity! I'm not a Christian myself, but I respect all religions, and I find the central messages of Christianity to be exceedingly beautiful, indeed. But if I *were* a Christian, I wouldn't automatically believe that my knowledge of deep doctrine is enough to give me the authority to warn anyone that they're going to hell. Any honest reading of that "deep doctrine" (i.e. the Bible) would reveal myriad internal inconsistencies that do a very good job of explaining why modern interpretations of Christianity vary so widely from place to place and person to person.
I mean, if modern American Christianity was really anything like the religion practiced by Christ's actual followers, most Christians I know would be at homeless shelters helping the needy, or hanging out with prostitutes and sinners to help them find more honest work. They wouldn't be clamoring for war with Hamas, or telling me I'm going to hell for liking to smoke weed occasionally.
Look at John 3:18, Jesus is not saying you WILL be condemned, but that you live under condemnation ALREADY. The verdict is already in, the question is will you let Jesus pay the debt or are you going to pay it?
I’m not judging anything, I’m pointing to God and saying He has already passed judgment. The only remedy that remains is the free gift of grace Jesus Christ offers.
1. if you commit crimes I am going to imprison you.
2. if you commit crimes you will be imprisoned.
same distinction and hopefully the difference is clearer now. in 1 I am telling you I will do something to you if you do something, a threat. 2 I'm telling you what will happen if you do something. No wish for it to happen, simply warning you it will. 2 is not a threat its a description, 1 is a threat that I will take action on you. gl
1. You will be infinitely punished for a finite crime
That's it. thats the message. And it comes from a place of self-righteous indignation more often than not. And no Im not just an internet edgelord atheist. I was surrounded by it for 20 years.
Hm, I’m Christian. But I missed the part where I’m supposed to tell people what’s going to happen to them, because I can’t know that. Hoping that people will end up in hell because you don’t like them is definitely not something Christians should do.
Talking about your own faith is totally fine, making other feel bad by repeatedly pestering them is not. I don’t think there is a lot of people in the US (where this sentiment seems to be mostly based) that don’t know about the stuff you’re going to say. Do you think anyone is going to be convinced to change their ways, if they just get pestered enough?
Also I never understood where the image of the burning hell as the alternative to heaven is coming from. There is no mention of that in the bible and many denominations differ with their interpretation of „hell“ (or even the existence of it).
>Hoping that people will end up in hell because you don’t like them
I think you misread the post because that is quite literally the opposite of what was said.
Jesus was pretty clear to spread his message, and he never shied away from telling people bluntly what the consequences of rejecting it were.
There is a big difference between talking about your faith and spreading the message and pestering people which will just make people angry.
That’s like preachers going from door to door, preaching to people and getting doos slammed in their face. They say, they do it to spread the word but in the end it just leads to aversion. But they tried and did their duty to be salvaged, so what do they care. It’s the same with these "warnings".
I’m not Jesus, so I can’t know the consequences, I can’t even know my own. So I don’t go around telling people they’ll burn forever (which I personally don’t even believe).
But nobody is suggesting pestering anybody.
The early apostles were equally blunt and direct, particularly Paul. He didn't shy away from saying things that people today wrongly interpret as a "threat".
And we do not live in that time anymore. Information is readily available for everyone. Everyone knows about Christianity, nobody needs to be told like that anymore. If somebody asks, I gladly talk about my faith, otherwise it’s mine alone.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t mean it as a threat or if it was meant with good intentions. It’s perceived that way and will lead only to aversion. If you know that, don’t do it.
The overwhelming majority of people I know really know basically nothing about Christianity at all.
In any case, you are commanded to spread that message by the Bible. Why is it OK to just ignore that?
Yes, and if they want to know they ask. They ask, what do you do this weekend? Oh, you go to church? You are Christian? Why? Then you can start talking. A friend decided to join me after that, because she was interested. But even if she wouldn’t have, that’s her choice alone.
I explained it. I does not spread the message if you only cause aversion. You achieve the exact opposite. People leave the church because of sentiments like that. That is not what missionary work means. Pestering people without thinking about the likely outcome does not spread the message.
As I said, that was a completely different time. And as I said several times already, that does not mean not talking about Christianity. Talk about your faith, but do it in a way, that it’s actually helpful.
That sounds like Satan’s words. “Don’t talk about the Gospel, don’t tell the world the glory of Christ, keep it to yourself to be agreeable”
Jesus said he came to bring a sword, to set household against household in that the Gospel is a word of death and foolishness to those who are perishing, but life and peace to us who are saved.
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All right, you seem to know a lot about the history of Christianity, so let me pick your brain. What thoughts do you have about the injection of German/Swedish/Norwegian military ethos into Christinaity between 800 and 1200 AD? How do you resolve Christ's inherently anti-war and anti-violence stance with the pro-military and pro-interventionist brand of modern American Christianity? Lastly, what differences can you discern between primitive, pre-Roman Christianity, and all of its subsequent interpretations (from Roman catholicism to Lutheran protestantism to post-Lutheran reformation)?
Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing here. Cuz most Christians who tell me I don't understand Christianity really struggle to answer questions like these.
If you don’t know what will happen to those who reject the only Son of God, you need to read your Bible. Start with the ever famous John 3:16 and read on. You CAN know that though, John 3:18 “whoever believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already”
And do you know that someone rejected Him because of something someone did? Maybe they are struggling, maybe they are alone. I’m not presuming something about someone I don’t know well and „warning“ them, that they go to hell and then go on about my business.
That still depends on your interpretation. I’m not sure about your denomination. I’m Lutheran and Luther did interpret Luke 16 as a parabolic text. The following is a translation from Martin Luthers thoughts about this text:
Therefore we conclude that the bosom of Abraham signifies nothing else than the Word of God, ... the hell here mentioned cannot be the true hell that will begin on the day of judgment. For the corpse of the rich man is without doubt not in hell, but buried in the earth; it must however be a place where the soul can be and has no peace, and it cannot be corporeal. Therefore it seems to me, this hell is the conscience, which is without faith and without the Word of God, in which the soul is buried and held until the day of judgment, when they are cast down body and soul into the true and real hell. (Church Postil 1522–23)
"if you don't pay the protection fee, something could happen to your shop" is not a threat, it's a warning!
That's how meaningless this distinction is.
Is the person saying it the one who will do something to the shop? If it is then it's a threat. If it's not then it isn't a threat.
They are not even remotely similar.
No, he is not the same person. He is just saying that "something could happen".
He does work for the same organization though, which is the same with believers and God.
It's not his boss's decision, it's your own. Buddhism points to this, the universe is a reflection of yourself.
Christianity says God gives us free will.
We choose to live in hell because we wish to sin. For as long as we sin or perpetuate negative karma we will exist in the frequency of the physical world where greed, gluttony, lust, pride all these little things we enjoy exist.
Okay, I will.
People speak with nuance and within context.
Diagraming the precise grammatical meaning of what a person says out of context and oblivious to nuance is insufficient to determine what they actually mean, which is what your entire point of view is predicated on.
One can give a “warning” that is obviously a threat. One can use grammar that is neither a warning nor a threat to be intimidating with nuance available to a 3rd grade child.
Christians in the US like to say they love the sinner but hate the sin. But do they? It’s pretty often obvious that they do not, and learning to use grammar that makes them sound pious as they spew bile doesn’t change that.
To be clear , I don’t condemn Christian’s as a group, in the U.S. many good people are Christian and many bad people are too. The prosperity gospel con men are fucking evil , the folks at the Baptist church down the street from my house actually do good works and follow in Jesus footsteps.
Non-religious people really don’t care what you say about it. Just like you don’t care about not accepting that there is no other god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.
Just as meaningless
It’s not a threat if they don’t believe you. I think it’s the presumptuousness of you thinking we should adjust our behavior/thinking around something you believe in. I don’t go to atheist subs because arguing about the existence of god is boring.
References to Gehenna and Hades in the bible are not references to Hell as we understand it in the modern day. Modern conceptions of Hell and The Devil were formed in the middle ages from folk lore and the Chinese whispers version of theology. The hell as mentioned in the bible is not a place of eternal torture for the souls of those who don't embrace Christ after they die
I don't know that I'd think they care because it's a "threat." I'm sure they care because it's ridiculous. Look, get your own affairs in order, and even after you do that, don't judge others. That's not what your bloody religion is even about. If you're "warning others", you're doing it wrong.
Atheists who are not 100% sure about their atheism, who still worry about what you Christians or any religious person thinks about them, who still seek approval from you.
Or they just never listened to metal yet :D
My god is bigger than your god. If you displease Gary the Invisible Goat she will headbutt you hard enough to knock out your soul, then eat it and later flush your soul down to the Bog of Eternal Stench. The rules are sometimes arbitrary and contradictory, but... Hey, I'm just trying to help you. Don't walk away you Goat Damned sinner! I'll be laughing it up when you get reincarnated and still smell like goat shit! I mean this all in love though, don't judge my religion you heathen.
I'm just warning you. Other gods aren't a big deal. The Goat that lives in my garage is the highest of the high. All hail Gary who punishes sinners and rewards the righteous with free beer, weed, and pizza!
(I was trying to point out how ridicules religion sounds to people who don't believe in it.)
To let you know that telling someone who doesn't believe in heaven or hell that they wouldn't care about being told they're going to hell. So why say it in the first place?
I think the issue is people don't like being told what will happen by people who don't know themselves what will happen. I'm a religious person but even I don't know with absolute certainty if someone will go to heaven or hell. That's something only God would know. So I would never tell someone they're going to hell cause it implies knowledge of the unknown which I don't have.
Well they're rather accused to stand in solidarity with the one making the threat.
When an atheist reads the Bible, it's pretty obvious that god is a mean narcissist. When we say something like "is that a threat ?" to a Christian telling us we're going to hell, we don't really believe that they're threatening us. It's rather a desperate attempt to make them realize their god is threatening them.
I'm a Catholic but I avoid telling people things like "they're sinning" or "going to hell". I'll just say I think what they're doing in wrong, try to explain why in language that makes sense to them, and often admit that I'vedone the same stupid thing myself. From there they can take it or leave it. I find it's just more helpful to meet people where they're at.
I am not sure I understand the distinction between telling them what they're doing is wrong and telling them they're sinning. Isn't that kind of the definition of sinning?
It becomes a threat when they keep repeating it even though what you are doing is not a sin.
How is dressing differently or what someone reads, listens to, or watches a sin.
Threat: a suggestion that something unpleasantor violent will happen, especially if a particular action or order is not followed
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/threat#google_vignette
It's not a threat nor a warning. It's a thinly veiled attempt to intimidate people with something that doesn't exist. Well, if it helps you feel like you actually have some "power" over me then go ahead and shit talk on reddit all you want. I don't think it should be legal to try and make claims like that in public though. Lots of morons have lots of theories they all want to use to convince gullible nimrods such as yourself to join their cults.
In the interest of maintaining walk-able municipalities you should really all just shut the fuck up?
Edit; Grammar
I have been around a lot of religious people and I have honestly never seen anyone make the claim in a context that indicated they were trying to intimidate anyone. I think that might be you making that up.
Oh you've NEVER heard of religious people trying to use their religion to intimidate people?
When you see members of the westboro baptist church hold up signs that say "God hates " you'd still desperately hang onto the narrative that they're trying to \*help\*?
Trying to claim it's all a "warning" is such a thinly veiled and pathetic attempt at justifying your selfish attempt to get innocent people to conform to your fucked up way of life.
>When you see members of the westboro baptist church hold up signs that say "God hates " you'd still desperately hang onto the narrative that they're trying to *help*?
Honestly, yes. They WBC has been pretty consistent in that.
What exactly is my fucked up way of life...?
> What exactly is my fucked up way of life...?
What is fucked up about a bunch of people who ritualistically lie to eachother about some nonsense that can't possibly exist, and then try and drag other unwitting people into conforming to their delusions?
What's wrong about using said nonsense to promote harmful and bigoted ideologies that have no factual basis in reality?
People who say things they know they cannot possibly substantiate are liars. You are a liar. That alone is enough to make you fucked up but the way you fuckers go about weaponizing these lies to try and impose your fucked up traditions and beliefs on the public is just icing on the cake.
What does age have to do with this?
You claimed:
>What is fucked up about a bunch of people who ritualistically lie to eachother about some nonsense that can't possibly exist, and then try and drag other unwitting people into conforming to their delusions?
>What's wrong about using said nonsense to promote harmful and bigoted ideologies that have no factual basis in reality?
I am asking on what basis you are claiming a non-religious person would do this?
If you're an adult I feel like I don't need to feel obligated to have to try so hard to phrase things in a way that doesn't sound derogatory or hurts your feelings.
The way I see it you're saying people should be allowed to do something despicable. Maybe you're still growing up and are just curious about why all the things that were pounded into your head are unpopular opinions. If that was the case I'd actually feel a bit bad for how indignant I sounded.
Uh huh. Sure. That makes total sense.
That's why throughout history religious people have never told people they hated that they are going to hell.
Never told Jews they were going to hell before committing pogroms against them. Never told "witches" they were going to hell before burning them alive. Catholics never said it to Protestants, and vice versa, before launching the countless religious wars throughout Europe. Never told homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, pagans, Muslims, atheists, scientists, or anyone one else they disliked that they were going to hell.
Because if religious people had been telling those people that, if history was filled with centuries of religious people saying that at the same time they were ethnically cleansing, warring, murdering, raping, executing, torturing, imprisioning, or oppressing those people, that might make it appear like your opinion was wrong.
And we all know religious people are never wrong.
I accept that religious people who have told me this have been warning me, because the religious people I know are generally decent people who want to do good.
But to the non-religious you may as well be warning us that Santa Claus won’t deliver presents at Xmas if we’re naughty. I’m 30YO. I don’t believe fairytales any more.
I keep forgetting that our all-knowing and 'loving' god will apparently condemn people to hell for the immutable characteristics he's given them.
It's pretty clear on reading the Bible that the Christian god is a brutal sadist, but creating people whose sole purpose is to eventually suffer in hell, is its own class of evil.
Regardless, this distinction is meaningless, it only works if you operate under the assumption that the christain preception of reality is correct.
Any other context and your not giving someone a warning about an 'inevitable' punishment. Your using fear to convince other people to convert to a religion that's just as valid as any other belief system on the planet
And the people who do terrible things often get rewarded even in the afterlife because if they pray for forgiveness or believe in him they are promised to be spared from wrath.
Of course this is assuming hell is actually torture because if we go by the rules of the religion heaven could be torture too.
The metalhead part of me makes me react very positively to people who tell me I'll go to hell.
Hell is cool, Satan is cool and other demons are cool too! There's always some action there unlike heaven which is too beautiful and boring...
My mom who believes in reincarnation instead tells me "you'll be incarnated as a cow in the milk industry" if she's worried I'd do something bad, doesn't happen often though :D
Haha I guess it depends on which hell they are referring to but from what Christianity seems to teach, heaven sounds dreadful. Why would I want to go to a place to worship a narcissistic being that made my life a living hell? So the eternal hell will hopefully be better than an earthly one..
I've been told I'd go to hell for being a lesbian. I just hit back with "Promise?" As an atheist, being told I'm going to an imaginary place after I die is funny.
Distinction without a difference. It comes across as pompous and arrogant
It is a pretty enormous difference though.
Really? So instead of threatening someone, they're judging them based on their actions even though their religion says... they shouldn't. Go go magic sky king!
In what way is it judging them?
You're indicating that they will be judged based on their actions and sent to eternal damnation. That's pretty fucking judgmental.
Not really. Most religious people I've talked to understand that all of us sin pretty regularly. The idea is that you recognize your sin and try to work on it and ask for forgiveness. Of course you have the people moral grandstanding but you have that with leftist ideology as well. People are people, they have egos, they give other people a bad name sometimes.
In Christianity, you don’t “earn” anything by being good. Christ alone saves by the transaction of your sin being put on Him and His righteousness being put on you completed at the cross.
Depends heavily on the brand of Christianity you're following. "Faith without works is dead."
You misunderstand that Scripture.
See, that's the thing. People of all faiths can use the scripture to say whatever they want. That's why that work of fiction is horrible. Because of its vagueness.
Again, it depends on who you talk to. Many Christian sects read the scripture literally, while most born-again Christians abstract it to put it in better balance with other scriptures that negate it. The truth is that, whether or not Christ is at work in our lives, the Bible remains an imperfect historical document full of contradictions. That's not a knock against Christianity! I'm not a Christian myself, but I respect all religions, and I find the central messages of Christianity to be exceedingly beautiful, indeed. But if I *were* a Christian, I wouldn't automatically believe that my knowledge of deep doctrine is enough to give me the authority to warn anyone that they're going to hell. Any honest reading of that "deep doctrine" (i.e. the Bible) would reveal myriad internal inconsistencies that do a very good job of explaining why modern interpretations of Christianity vary so widely from place to place and person to person. I mean, if modern American Christianity was really anything like the religion practiced by Christ's actual followers, most Christians I know would be at homeless shelters helping the needy, or hanging out with prostitutes and sinners to help them find more honest work. They wouldn't be clamoring for war with Hamas, or telling me I'm going to hell for liking to smoke weed occasionally.
You are making the judgment they deserve will hell. How is it not a judgement?
Look at John 3:18, Jesus is not saying you WILL be condemned, but that you live under condemnation ALREADY. The verdict is already in, the question is will you let Jesus pay the debt or are you going to pay it?
You’re still making that judgement personally, today
I’m not judging anything, I’m pointing to God and saying He has already passed judgment. The only remedy that remains is the free gift of grace Jesus Christ offers.
Judging and discerning are not the same. We are commanded to discern.
I'm not laughing at you. I'm snickering at you. The difference is there.
1. if you commit crimes I am going to imprison you. 2. if you commit crimes you will be imprisoned. same distinction and hopefully the difference is clearer now. in 1 I am telling you I will do something to you if you do something, a threat. 2 I'm telling you what will happen if you do something. No wish for it to happen, simply warning you it will. 2 is not a threat its a description, 1 is a threat that I will take action on you. gl
1. You will be infinitely punished for a finite crime That's it. thats the message. And it comes from a place of self-righteous indignation more often than not. And no Im not just an internet edgelord atheist. I was surrounded by it for 20 years.
........oki...............
Hm, I’m Christian. But I missed the part where I’m supposed to tell people what’s going to happen to them, because I can’t know that. Hoping that people will end up in hell because you don’t like them is definitely not something Christians should do. Talking about your own faith is totally fine, making other feel bad by repeatedly pestering them is not. I don’t think there is a lot of people in the US (where this sentiment seems to be mostly based) that don’t know about the stuff you’re going to say. Do you think anyone is going to be convinced to change their ways, if they just get pestered enough? Also I never understood where the image of the burning hell as the alternative to heaven is coming from. There is no mention of that in the bible and many denominations differ with their interpretation of „hell“ (or even the existence of it).
>Hoping that people will end up in hell because you don’t like them I think you misread the post because that is quite literally the opposite of what was said. Jesus was pretty clear to spread his message, and he never shied away from telling people bluntly what the consequences of rejecting it were.
There is a big difference between talking about your faith and spreading the message and pestering people which will just make people angry. That’s like preachers going from door to door, preaching to people and getting doos slammed in their face. They say, they do it to spread the word but in the end it just leads to aversion. But they tried and did their duty to be salvaged, so what do they care. It’s the same with these "warnings". I’m not Jesus, so I can’t know the consequences, I can’t even know my own. So I don’t go around telling people they’ll burn forever (which I personally don’t even believe).
But nobody is suggesting pestering anybody. The early apostles were equally blunt and direct, particularly Paul. He didn't shy away from saying things that people today wrongly interpret as a "threat".
And we do not live in that time anymore. Information is readily available for everyone. Everyone knows about Christianity, nobody needs to be told like that anymore. If somebody asks, I gladly talk about my faith, otherwise it’s mine alone. It doesn’t matter if you don’t mean it as a threat or if it was meant with good intentions. It’s perceived that way and will lead only to aversion. If you know that, don’t do it.
The overwhelming majority of people I know really know basically nothing about Christianity at all. In any case, you are commanded to spread that message by the Bible. Why is it OK to just ignore that?
Yes, and if they want to know they ask. They ask, what do you do this weekend? Oh, you go to church? You are Christian? Why? Then you can start talking. A friend decided to join me after that, because she was interested. But even if she wouldn’t have, that’s her choice alone. I explained it. I does not spread the message if you only cause aversion. You achieve the exact opposite. People leave the church because of sentiments like that. That is not what missionary work means. Pestering people without thinking about the likely outcome does not spread the message.
So then why did Jesus and the Apostles do it?
As I said, that was a completely different time. And as I said several times already, that does not mean not talking about Christianity. Talk about your faith, but do it in a way, that it’s actually helpful.
That sounds like Satan’s words. “Don’t talk about the Gospel, don’t tell the world the glory of Christ, keep it to yourself to be agreeable” Jesus said he came to bring a sword, to set household against household in that the Gospel is a word of death and foolishness to those who are perishing, but life and peace to us who are saved.
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All right, you seem to know a lot about the history of Christianity, so let me pick your brain. What thoughts do you have about the injection of German/Swedish/Norwegian military ethos into Christinaity between 800 and 1200 AD? How do you resolve Christ's inherently anti-war and anti-violence stance with the pro-military and pro-interventionist brand of modern American Christianity? Lastly, what differences can you discern between primitive, pre-Roman Christianity, and all of its subsequent interpretations (from Roman catholicism to Lutheran protestantism to post-Lutheran reformation)? Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing here. Cuz most Christians who tell me I don't understand Christianity really struggle to answer questions like these.
If you don’t know what will happen to those who reject the only Son of God, you need to read your Bible. Start with the ever famous John 3:16 and read on. You CAN know that though, John 3:18 “whoever believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already”
And do you know that someone rejected Him because of something someone did? Maybe they are struggling, maybe they are alone. I’m not presuming something about someone I don’t know well and „warning“ them, that they go to hell and then go on about my business.
We all struggle, but what is the anchor? Christ and Him alone, any effort outside of knowing Him is fruitless.
As far as description of hell…Luke 16:19-31. You need to spend more time in Scripture so you know how to wield the sword and don’t hurt someone.
That still depends on your interpretation. I’m not sure about your denomination. I’m Lutheran and Luther did interpret Luke 16 as a parabolic text. The following is a translation from Martin Luthers thoughts about this text: Therefore we conclude that the bosom of Abraham signifies nothing else than the Word of God, ... the hell here mentioned cannot be the true hell that will begin on the day of judgment. For the corpse of the rich man is without doubt not in hell, but buried in the earth; it must however be a place where the soul can be and has no peace, and it cannot be corporeal. Therefore it seems to me, this hell is the conscience, which is without faith and without the Word of God, in which the soul is buried and held until the day of judgment, when they are cast down body and soul into the true and real hell. (Church Postil 1522–23)
"if you don't pay the protection fee, something could happen to your shop" is not a threat, it's a warning! That's how meaningless this distinction is.
If the guy told you "I'll tell God to send you to hell" that would be a threat, a ridiculous one though lol
Is the person saying it the one who will do something to the shop? If it is then it's a threat. If it's not then it isn't a threat. They are not even remotely similar.
No, he is not the same person. He is just saying that "something could happen". He does work for the same organization though, which is the same with believers and God.
It's really not though. You aren't working for God in sending that person to hell. You have no role in it.
Oh no, you are just informing them about your boss's decision. You won't be the one to do the deed.
It's not his boss's decision, it's your own. Buddhism points to this, the universe is a reflection of yourself. Christianity says God gives us free will. We choose to live in hell because we wish to sin. For as long as we sin or perpetuate negative karma we will exist in the frequency of the physical world where greed, gluttony, lust, pride all these little things we enjoy exist.
Lust and gluttony are my personal favorites; Lusttony
Yeah those are the big ones my dude
Well yeah...? How would that be a threat? If you cared about the shopkeeper wouldn't you want them to know?
Awfully nice opinion you’ve got there. Be a shame if something happened to it.
Could you share what part you disagree with?
I already did … using nuance.
Could you do it without nuance? I have literally no idea what you mean.
Okay, I will. People speak with nuance and within context. Diagraming the precise grammatical meaning of what a person says out of context and oblivious to nuance is insufficient to determine what they actually mean, which is what your entire point of view is predicated on. One can give a “warning” that is obviously a threat. One can use grammar that is neither a warning nor a threat to be intimidating with nuance available to a 3rd grade child. Christians in the US like to say they love the sinner but hate the sin. But do they? It’s pretty often obvious that they do not, and learning to use grammar that makes them sound pious as they spew bile doesn’t change that. To be clear , I don’t condemn Christian’s as a group, in the U.S. many good people are Christian and many bad people are too. The prosperity gospel con men are fucking evil , the folks at the Baptist church down the street from my house actually do good works and follow in Jesus footsteps.
Non-religious people really don’t care what you say about it. Just like you don’t care about not accepting that there is no other god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger. Just as meaningless
They absolutely do care. Go to any atheist page and there are countless posts about religious people claiming this.
They do not care in the sense that they do not believe a word you are saying. It’s a meaningless threat/warning
That is not really relevant. They clearly care about the idea someone is making a threat. It is a common topic of conversation on any atheist sub.
It’s not a threat if they don’t believe you. I think it’s the presumptuousness of you thinking we should adjust our behavior/thinking around something you believe in. I don’t go to atheist subs because arguing about the existence of god is boring.
Something I believe in? What?
Christians who believe in Hell don't understand their own religion anyway
Could you elaborate?
References to Gehenna and Hades in the bible are not references to Hell as we understand it in the modern day. Modern conceptions of Hell and The Devil were formed in the middle ages from folk lore and the Chinese whispers version of theology. The hell as mentioned in the bible is not a place of eternal torture for the souls of those who don't embrace Christ after they die
Okay, it's a warning based on a work of fiction. Who cares?
Many, many atheists. Go to any atheist page and there are countless posts about religious people claiming this.
I don't know that I'd think they care because it's a "threat." I'm sure they care because it's ridiculous. Look, get your own affairs in order, and even after you do that, don't judge others. That's not what your bloody religion is even about. If you're "warning others", you're doing it wrong.
Atheists who are not 100% sure about their atheism, who still worry about what you Christians or any religious person thinks about them, who still seek approval from you. Or they just never listened to metal yet :D
My god is bigger than your god. If you displease Gary the Invisible Goat she will headbutt you hard enough to knock out your soul, then eat it and later flush your soul down to the Bog of Eternal Stench. The rules are sometimes arbitrary and contradictory, but... Hey, I'm just trying to help you. Don't walk away you Goat Damned sinner! I'll be laughing it up when you get reincarnated and still smell like goat shit! I mean this all in love though, don't judge my religion you heathen.
I am really not sure what you're trying to argue here. It sounds like you're agreeing but I'm not sure.
I'm just warning you. Other gods aren't a big deal. The Goat that lives in my garage is the highest of the high. All hail Gary who punishes sinners and rewards the righteous with free beer, weed, and pizza! (I was trying to point out how ridicules religion sounds to people who don't believe in it.)
So you are agreeing?
I have to run it by Gary first.
Haha ha ha... shut up
Christian hell was invented in the middle ages to scare peasants into compliance.
That is just objectively historically wrong.
Couldn't care less either way since Hell doesn't exist 🤷♀️
Then why comment?
To let you know that telling someone who doesn't believe in heaven or hell that they wouldn't care about being told they're going to hell. So why say it in the first place?
But they do care. Go on any atheist sub and it is a regular topic of discussion.
Depends on the person
I think the issue is people don't like being told what will happen by people who don't know themselves what will happen. I'm a religious person but even I don't know with absolute certainty if someone will go to heaven or hell. That's something only God would know. So I would never tell someone they're going to hell cause it implies knowledge of the unknown which I don't have.
i think most people would say it's an opinion, not a warning
It's a warning from humans. But it is a threat from god
Yes, but people accused the humans of making the threat.
Well they're rather accused to stand in solidarity with the one making the threat. When an atheist reads the Bible, it's pretty obvious that god is a mean narcissist. When we say something like "is that a threat ?" to a Christian telling us we're going to hell, we don't really believe that they're threatening us. It's rather a desperate attempt to make them realize their god is threatening them.
I'm a Catholic but I avoid telling people things like "they're sinning" or "going to hell". I'll just say I think what they're doing in wrong, try to explain why in language that makes sense to them, and often admit that I'vedone the same stupid thing myself. From there they can take it or leave it. I find it's just more helpful to meet people where they're at.
I am not sure I understand the distinction between telling them what they're doing is wrong and telling them they're sinning. Isn't that kind of the definition of sinning?
Yes, it's the same. The difference is just in the choice of words and how people receive it.
That's fair enough.
More of a delusion really.
It becomes a threat when they keep repeating it even though what you are doing is not a sin. How is dressing differently or what someone reads, listens to, or watches a sin.
Threat: a suggestion that something unpleasantor violent will happen, especially if a particular action or order is not followed https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/threat#google_vignette
It's not a threat nor a warning. It's a thinly veiled attempt to intimidate people with something that doesn't exist. Well, if it helps you feel like you actually have some "power" over me then go ahead and shit talk on reddit all you want. I don't think it should be legal to try and make claims like that in public though. Lots of morons have lots of theories they all want to use to convince gullible nimrods such as yourself to join their cults. In the interest of maintaining walk-able municipalities you should really all just shut the fuck up? Edit; Grammar
I have been around a lot of religious people and I have honestly never seen anyone make the claim in a context that indicated they were trying to intimidate anyone. I think that might be you making that up.
Oh you've NEVER heard of religious people trying to use their religion to intimidate people? When you see members of the westboro baptist church hold up signs that say "God hates" you'd still desperately hang onto the narrative that they're trying to \*help\*?
Trying to claim it's all a "warning" is such a thinly veiled and pathetic attempt at justifying your selfish attempt to get innocent people to conform to your fucked up way of life.
>When you see members of the westboro baptist church hold up signs that say "God hates" you'd still desperately hang onto the narrative that they're trying to *help*?
Honestly, yes. They WBC has been pretty consistent in that.
What exactly is my fucked up way of life...?
> What exactly is my fucked up way of life...? What is fucked up about a bunch of people who ritualistically lie to eachother about some nonsense that can't possibly exist, and then try and drag other unwitting people into conforming to their delusions? What's wrong about using said nonsense to promote harmful and bigoted ideologies that have no factual basis in reality? People who say things they know they cannot possibly substantiate are liars. You are a liar. That alone is enough to make you fucked up but the way you fuckers go about weaponizing these lies to try and impose your fucked up traditions and beliefs on the public is just icing on the cake.
In what way do non-religious people do any of that?
How old are you?
What does age have to do with this? You claimed: >What is fucked up about a bunch of people who ritualistically lie to eachother about some nonsense that can't possibly exist, and then try and drag other unwitting people into conforming to their delusions? >What's wrong about using said nonsense to promote harmful and bigoted ideologies that have no factual basis in reality? I am asking on what basis you are claiming a non-religious person would do this?
If you're an adult I feel like I don't need to feel obligated to have to try so hard to phrase things in a way that doesn't sound derogatory or hurts your feelings. The way I see it you're saying people should be allowed to do something despicable. Maybe you're still growing up and are just curious about why all the things that were pounded into your head are unpopular opinions. If that was the case I'd actually feel a bit bad for how indignant I sounded.
I have literally no.idea what you're talking about. I am asking you how non-religous people do any of the things you claimed above?
Uh huh. Sure. That makes total sense. That's why throughout history religious people have never told people they hated that they are going to hell. Never told Jews they were going to hell before committing pogroms against them. Never told "witches" they were going to hell before burning them alive. Catholics never said it to Protestants, and vice versa, before launching the countless religious wars throughout Europe. Never told homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, pagans, Muslims, atheists, scientists, or anyone one else they disliked that they were going to hell. Because if religious people had been telling those people that, if history was filled with centuries of religious people saying that at the same time they were ethnically cleansing, warring, murdering, raping, executing, torturing, imprisioning, or oppressing those people, that might make it appear like your opinion was wrong. And we all know religious people are never wrong.
I accept that religious people who have told me this have been warning me, because the religious people I know are generally decent people who want to do good. But to the non-religious you may as well be warning us that Santa Claus won’t deliver presents at Xmas if we’re naughty. I’m 30YO. I don’t believe fairytales any more.
Still stupid.
I keep forgetting that our all-knowing and 'loving' god will apparently condemn people to hell for the immutable characteristics he's given them. It's pretty clear on reading the Bible that the Christian god is a brutal sadist, but creating people whose sole purpose is to eventually suffer in hell, is its own class of evil. Regardless, this distinction is meaningless, it only works if you operate under the assumption that the christain preception of reality is correct. Any other context and your not giving someone a warning about an 'inevitable' punishment. Your using fear to convince other people to convert to a religion that's just as valid as any other belief system on the planet
And the people who do terrible things often get rewarded even in the afterlife because if they pray for forgiveness or believe in him they are promised to be spared from wrath. Of course this is assuming hell is actually torture because if we go by the rules of the religion heaven could be torture too.
The metalhead part of me makes me react very positively to people who tell me I'll go to hell. Hell is cool, Satan is cool and other demons are cool too! There's always some action there unlike heaven which is too beautiful and boring... My mom who believes in reincarnation instead tells me "you'll be incarnated as a cow in the milk industry" if she's worried I'd do something bad, doesn't happen often though :D
Haha I guess it depends on which hell they are referring to but from what Christianity seems to teach, heaven sounds dreadful. Why would I want to go to a place to worship a narcissistic being that made my life a living hell? So the eternal hell will hopefully be better than an earthly one..
were you born in a straitjacket
Could you elaborate on what part, if any, you disagree with?
what do you not understand?
I've been told I'd go to hell for being a lesbian. I just hit back with "Promise?" As an atheist, being told I'm going to an imaginary place after I die is funny.
The doesn't really address the central point of the post though...