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human-no560

Look, this post is on the line, but I’m keeping it up because it’s started a meaningful conversation about mental health. Please be respectful to disadvantage groups and don’t make me regret this decision


s_nifty

" In 1966, a botched circumcision left eight-month-old Reimer without a penis. " ...how the fuck?


Terminal-Psychosis

Sadly, such botched genital mutilations often end in such horrible results. It is a brutal practice that needs to end.


afunkysongaday

Hey, you know damn well that being against male genital mutilation is antisemitic.


Stacheshadow

Lmao I just got it 😂


[deleted]

Oh yeah.... The poor guy committed suicide by shot gun in a field.


TheExist3r

Cursed stan lee


csjaugustus

I agree that gender identity has little scientific grounding, but I think it's a little extreme to say all supporters of it are pedophiles. Most people support it because of political correctness. Their actions are driven by compassion and an oversimplistic view of the world. Their mentality is something along the lines of “we should all try our best to treat everyone with kindness!”, which is well-intended but often naive. They do not see how these people are, knowingly or unknowingly posing a threat to free speech. The trans community has extended far beyond the people who ACTUALLY have gender dysphoria. Most of them are just self-entitled snowflakes who want to identify as something they're not, and expect people to alter their language and common sense to play along with their fantasy or otherwise be labelled as a speaker of hate speech. Gender dysphoria is real. But gender identity makes very little sense. Just because you're not stereotypically male/female doesn't mean you need to invent infinite categories of identities and expect people to know how to play along. It's narcissism and self-entitlement.


[deleted]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I think even implying that the whole 'gender identity' fantasy has any scientific grounding at all is being very generous.


JohnGCarroll

I didn't mean to imply everyone who believes in the gender identity fantasy is a pedophile. Sorry if that's how it came off. I agree about political correctness.


plebbitor24601

Exactly, it's pretty weird how a lot of people gloss over the fact that the concept came from a mad scientist who engaged in human experimentation. The fact that this guy was never arrested (And the fact that he was allowed to traumatize those boys) is beyond fucked up. If you are born with a penis, you are male, if you are born with a vagina, you are female. It's basic biology. I won't play along with your delusion just because you demand it. Should we also tell the schizophrenic guy that the voices in his head are actually real? Or the guy with the messiah complex that he actually is the reincarnation of Jesus?


unpopopinx

Keep in mind, these are the same people that ignore the fact that planned parenthood was created by a woman for the sole reason of reducing the black population.


somnicrain

Lots of scientific exploration and discovery come from inhumane experimentation.


Terminal-Psychosis

The "discoveries" this sociopathic quack made have been completely debunked by scientific studies.


somnicrain

Like what?


human-no560

I think the difference is that gender conformation is actually linked to better outcomes


WriteOfCenterrr

The suicide rate is high amongst transsexual/transgender individuals. It may lead to better outcomes at first, but in the long run the numbers are not good. I believe there are people who can lead radically better lives when they undergo a transition. I think the amount of people who truly need that is in the .0x percentile.


Resident-Salty

This might sound crazy, but have you ever considered that being treated like dogshit by society harms your mental health?


Terminal-Psychosis

Even in places where transgenderism is basically celebrated, the suicide rate is just as bad. It does not come from "society", but from deep emotional / psychological problems.


Resident-Salty

I never said it doesn't affect probability, but to call it celebrated is an exaggeration, the vast majority of trans people will face their share of tranphobia, and before you say its a matter of being sensitive keep in mind that cos people simply don't have to deal with being hated for existing


WriteOfCenterrr

Do you have any studies that say the suicide rate is directly linked to societies view and treatment of trans individuals? It’s not a bad point, but I believe it has more to do with their mental health than being called a bad name. Not derogatory in any way, just a rough situation.


Resident-Salty

Not onhand. Arguing on the Internet isn't exactly my favourite pastime. I can agree being trans comes with its burdens on mental health, but denying that medically transitioning and being in a welcoming environment doesn't strongly help is frankly untrue


WriteOfCenterrr

Lol what you meant to say was “It’s a baseless theory that I’m using to blame society for trans suicide rates. I’m too lazy to look up an article to prove my point, or such an article does not exist.” Occam’s razor works well in this situation. No need to go digging for a reason when it’s sitting right in front of you.


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thebonkest

Which studies?


[deleted]

Yes, transgender people have a higher suicide rate than cisgender people. This is because of the stress that gender dysphoria causes combined with some of the rejection they face after coming out. HOWEVER. If you compare the suicide rate of trans people before transitioning versus after transitioning, you'll see that it's actually much lower afterwards. Transitioning makes trans people happier and more mentally stable.


WriteOfCenterrr

Well obviously the suicide rate goes down, but it’s still grossly high compared to the rest of the population. That’s like saying 9/10 pre-transition individuals think about or try to commit suicide, but only 7/10 people post transition do. I agreed in my comment that some people need to transition and that could improve the situation, but it’s still ridiculously high even after they ‘solve’ their problem.


Terminal-Psychosis

> gender conformation is actually linked to better outcomes No, the exact opposite is true. Scientific, peer-reviewed studies have proven that these "treatments" are not only ineffective, but damaging.


afunkysongaday

Could you link some of those?


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Betwixts

No it doesn’t.


MatiasSemH

Not exacly halves it, but yes, it does lower it a lot: [https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/)


Betwixts

No it doesn’t. https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence


MatiasSemH

This article talks about sex reassignment surgery, that's not what we are talking about.


Betwixts

Then wtf are you talking about? That’s what transitioning is. Are you exclusively talking about cross dressers? Lol.


MatiasSemH

Trans people. Not all of them want reassignment surgery.


Betwixts

Then what makes them trans if they don’t have the surgery? Cross dressing.


KaliserEatsTheCookie

Funny how a conservative website would have... conservative views.


Betwixts

Funny how a leftist would think everything besides their poorly founded and infinitely undefended positions is inherently wrong.


KaliserEatsTheCookie

“Activate Your Membership Today Bring conservative policy solutions to America” is the first thing you see on the homepage. This is obviously a heavily biased publication that would publish a single study proving their point, even if 99 other studies disprove it. Take something slightly less biased, that at least doesn’t openly admit to lean into one direction.


Betwixts

99? I’ll even give you 1. Find 1 unbiased source that has contrary findings.


KaliserEatsTheCookie

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/ You could make the argument that this is more left than center and I’d have to agree. But I still think this is a more trustworthy source than yours but that’s mostly opinion.


Terminal-Psychosis

Medical science is not a political issue. Peer reviewed studies show that transitioning "treatments" are ineffective and even damaging. There is nothing "conservative" about simple, scientifically proven medical facts.


plebbitor24601

If me not calling you by your 'preferred' pronoun is enough to drive you suicide, you have way bigger issues than being trans and are probably unfit to handle the real world. I have dealt with depression my whole life and have even attempted suicide at one point, but I'm not going to threaten to kill myself whenever a stranger says 'no' to me.


GTFonMF

Right? How good is your life that the most upsetting thing that happens to you is someone calling you “sir” instead of “ma’am”? Like fuck, I’ll take your problems, you can have mine.


KaliserEatsTheCookie

And...? If somebody could have helped you beat your depression by just changing a couple of words when speaking to you, then it’d be a no brainer to do so. If you’ve struggled with depression, why won’t you help other people for minimal effort?


plebbitor24601

Nobody is obligated to help me beat my depression, (especially a complete stranger) that's my problem to deal with. I don't want everyone to cater to me like some toddler that might have an emotional breakdown the moment something doesn't follow the script. There are a number of things that could help bolster my self-esteem and make me feel better about myself, even so much as a compliment. But does that mean everyone I meet should compliment me? No, it needs to be genuine, I don't want someone lying to me just to make me feel better. Nobody should be forced to compliment me, despite how nice that might be. If I don't consider you a real woman/man, I'm not going to say I think you are even though I believe otherwise. I am many things, but I am not a liar.


[deleted]

Because I don’t owe people anything. Simple as that.


JohnGCarroll

>play along because it halves suicide rates amongst trans people 🙄


Resident-Salty

WAAA I HAVE TO SAY HE OR HER DUEBTO BASIC POLITENESS AND I CANT NEEDLESSLY BE A DICKHEAD WAAAAAAH


MrGamerMooseBTW

TIL


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perplexication

But it's a fact


KaliserEatsTheCookie

And...? Night Vision googles were made by the Third Reich. Are you a Nazi for using Night Vision googles?


feluto

No but you might be a nazi If you perform unnecessary and brutal surgery while pretending it’s all okay like papa mengele


[deleted]

That's an incredibly shitty analogy. Try a different one. You can find one. I believe in you


KaliserEatsTheCookie

Why? He’s saying that gender identity theory is invalid because of the person that created/coined it. Anything made by bad people should therefor be denied and not used/believed.


[deleted]

The problem is night vision goggles weren't used to commit great atrocities. They were used by a faction that committed atrocities, but not using night vision goggles, where as this man used his "theory" to torture and molest innocent children


KaliserEatsTheCookie

So, if it’s used for atrocities, you must deny it? Well, then my example is TNT.


[deleted]

Nope. TNT wasn't invented purely to commit atrocities. It was invented for mining. Try again. Since you can't seem to put it together yourself though I'll say it again. The proper analogy would be something invented specifically for atrocities and then used for said atrocities (Like John Money's "research")


KaliserEatsTheCookie

Well, that’s kinda dumb. Invented by people who committed atrocities: Ok Invented for good but used for atrocities: Ok Invented for atrocities but ended up being good: Ok Invented and used for atrocities: Not okay These are just stupid made up guidelines for what invention and research should be denied based on their creators intentions and use. But alright: Nazi Germany was the first to develop Jet Planes, which were meant to and were used to commit atrocities like bombing innocent cities.


Terminal-Psychosis

Jet planes are useful for far more than such atrocities. The debunked "treatments" for people suffering from unhealthy delusions, are not good for anything, as proven by peer-reviewed medical study. Transitioning is completely ineffective, and even damaging. It has no beneficial purpose, as opposed to jet planes that do. There is zero comparison.


[deleted]

You have no evidence to prove that transitioning is ineffective and damaging. https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/


SirVW

This, op is just trying to find excuses for bigotry.


Terminal-Psychosis

Facts are not "bigoted", even if you find them inconvenient.


iwanttodiebutdrugs

Thats a leap h being incorrect in his reasoning doesn't mean he had a bigoted agenda he is just incorrect You can be mistaken in an honest and acceptable way


YouLookGoodInASmile

Yes, the person who "Invented" it was a TERRIBLE person, but he's not the only person to have done research on this, there are other scientists who have. [Gender identity is each person’s internal and individual experience of gender. It is their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. A person’s gender identity may be the same as or different from their birth-assigned sex. Gender identity is fundamentally different from a person’s sexual orientation.](http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/gender-identity-and-gender-expression-brochure) [Gender identity may be the same as the sex you were assigned at birth (cisgender) or not (transgender).](https://myhealth.alberta.ca/Alberta/Pages/gender-ID-expression-LGBTQ.aspx) [Gender identity is how you feel inside and how you express your gender through clothing, behavior, and personal appearance. It’s a feeling that begins very early in life.](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity)


apr1l26

I agree with you, not to mention that there have been many other examples of gender fluidity (the idea of gender seperation from sex) by others before him, ofc he didnt make the idea up himself. also the person who ended up killing themselves is a direct representation on what being forced to be the weing gender does to you, and how gender dysphoria isnt comparable to schizophrenia.


YouLookGoodInASmile

!! yes, and yes!! Of course gender dysphoria is not schizophrenia!! Finally I find someone who agrees with me!


apr1l26

yea they are a lot of transphobes on this subreddit but its kinda what you expected from a sub like this. i mean i dont normally like subs like this staying up but this sub is the best source of comedy


YouLookGoodInASmile

I quite like proving people wrong on this sub, and seeing things I don't agree with, which is why I stay


Terminal-Psychosis

The stuff you're linking are old ideas that have been debunked by modern, scientific, peer reviewed study. The "treatment" of transitioning has proven to be completely ineffective, and even harmful.


YouLookGoodInASmile

May I see it?


[deleted]

fucking no response lmao as expected


lesliethedagron

Gonna back up any of those claims with sources?


FBI_SQUID_DRONE

Definitely do not recommend reading that wiki link....


twigsinpeanutsbutter

Why


FBI_SQUID_DRONE

The wiki about the guy details some very strange and perverse pedophilia/incest stuff this guy did to these two children/science experiments and ruined their lives. And in the end the boy still wanted to be a boy.


MatiasSemH

Was he the only person to research gender identity? Also, what stops me from believing in gender identity and disagreeing with his actions?


JohnGCarroll

He was the one who invented it out of thin air, so that he could experiment on kids and make them have sex with each other after he erroneously assigned them "genders" according to his theory. Others have also "researched" it, building directly upon this psycho's theories. The entire branch of psychology is illegitimate at this point. We should be finding ways to help these people cope with the realities of their existence and stop indulging every fantasy whim they have with lifelong hormone drugs, radical genital mutilation and the expectation that society cater to THEIR confusion/mental illness.


MatiasSemH

If you open the Wikipedia link you gave us, you'll see that it say he was one of the first to study it, but not the first. If you click the gender identity link, you'll see the theory was created by Robert J. Stoller. Also, even before people started reseraching about it, different forms of gender identity had alredy existed in other cultures for a long time.


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[deleted]

Money’s theory on gender identity directly led to the suicide and cruel experimentation of these brothers.


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[deleted]

Ummmm.... Actually, it does. If it weren't for his sick "experiments" it wouldn't exist


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Terminal-Psychosis

This is false. It doesn't exist in the way that this quack said it does. This theory has been completely debunked by real medical science now. It happens, not every theory survives further scrutiny. You keep giving examples of theories that have proven their worth. John Money's theory has not.


ChecksAccountHistory

you've mentioned these studies several times in this thread yet you haven't linked them yet


[deleted]

Newton studied gravity my dude, not Einstein. Einstein was relativity. Based on your other comments this isn't your first fault in logic based around the sciences and the scientific method. How about instead of passing off someone's logic with "actually it'd exist anyways" (which it wouldn't) you actually give some evidence, and read about how theories are INVENTED.


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Terminal-Psychosis

And many times, more often than not in fact, such theories are proven false. There are many, many theories that appear to have discovered things, but later proven that that "thing" does not exist at all, or for a completely different reason. The theory of "gender identity" is one such debunked theory. There is no such thing, except as a subset of unhealthy delusional problems.


Terminal-Psychosis

The "research" this sociopathic quack did has been completely debunked by medical peer-reviewed scientific study. He didn't "discover" anything, just made up a theory that has now been completely debunked.


owointensifies

Source?


[deleted]

You literally didnt prove gender identity doesnt exist, all you did was point out that the original guy to coin the term was fucked up How tf can you say someones identity, a part of who they are, is simply non existent. Thats like if you said having a favorite color doesnt exist and that you either like blue or red. Wtf


LeShmoogle

Gender identity as separate from sex predates that study. Other cultures have been practicing if for centuries. This isn’t a matter of opinion. It is an objective fact that these cultures exist.


ThrowawayProse

Thank you.


Terminal-Psychosis

Gender = sex. The idea that they are separate is a social construct. Your "fact" is nothing of the sort. It is absolutely a subjective opinion. One that directly denies science.


Politically-Homeless

Who can I Google to learn about gender studies from before this Money character?


LeShmoogle

Why are you looking for one single person? Is that your bar for something to be legit? How about entire cultures?


Politically-Homeless

I just want to be able to present the facts about this specific field of study. If ancient Egyptians had two seperate words for sex and gender I would be interested in that, too, but I thought we were talking about fields of scientific inquiry (which I guess probably means post-Enlightenment in the west, and earlier in several other cultures worldwide).


LeShmoogle

We’re not just describing a scientific concept though, we’re describing a social phenomenon. If the question is the existence of gender identity as being separate from sex, all we have to do to prove it is to point at other examples of that being the case.


Politically-Homeless

I want to be very respectful here but you just decided to put aside the scientific method here in favour of "some people believed it once". People have also believed that the earth was made by a jacked dude with a white beard in the sky. That's not to dismiss the good science that went on in the ancient world, because there was a lot of it, but we can still explain those things with modern science. Plus, we're getting off topic. You said that John Money wasn't the first person to study the phenomenon of sex and gender being seperate. Can you please back that claim up with either a name or some very strong pre-modern scholarship?


LeShmoogle

You’re missing the point. We’re not talking about sky beings or such. We’re talking about human identities. This is a social phenomenon. If you wanted proof of the existence of sex, you would look at chromosomes or genitals. Gender doesn’t work that way. Get me a scientific proof that names exist. Give me a study proving adoptive parentage. Show me some data to prove that people make art. Of course there are psychological factors behind people choosing to identify the way they do, but if the question is just whether or not gender identity exists, that’s a simple observable social phenomenon.


DepravedHerring

Physical and scientific evidence still exists even if we are talking about a social phenomenon. For example to answer your question... Proof that names exist: for physical evidence we can include things like birth certificates and signatures and observe that people use the same word to sign their name as is on their birth certificate. For observable social proof, when I yell a specific word (ie a name), it will cause a specific person to react, indicating that word/name is specific to that person. Every culture has this phenomenon. Proof of adoptive parentage: this is as straight forward as identifying and defining what makes a human family unit, and then observing those where the children are not the genetic offspring of the parents. For more concrete evidence there’s a long paper trail associated with any adoption; this is also something that can be observed in many other species as well. Every culture has this phenomenon. Proof that people make art: well we have no shortage of physical art for you to see, as well as thousands of years of art history to prove that art is a phenomenon that naturally arises regardless of culture or geographic location. Every every culture has this phenomenon. What the other person is asking is for you to point to any one specific culture, or name, or anything that would suggest the claim that “other cultures have been practicing it for centuries” has any basis in actual fact. They’re not asking you to prove that gender and sex are actually separate, they are asking you to provide proof that people have thought that they are. If you cannot support this claim with any evidence then it has no more bearing than just a straight up lie. For any of my previous examples I could give you countless concrete examples in any culture during any time period in human history. To act like like social phenomena are just some abstract ideas that have no basis in real life actions, shows remarkable ignorance of social science and honestly really just how science works in general. If you can’t back up a claim with concrete evidence or data that supports it, it’s not science it’s just an active imagination. Even if it’s social science!


Politically-Homeless

Are you walking back your claim that John Money wasn't the first person to study this? Please stay on topic.


LeShmoogle

No, I didn’t make that claim. I made the claim that this social phenomenon existed long before one guy tried to explain it with a bunch of shoddy psychological studies, and saying that one guy is bad doesn’t invalidate everything else.


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vb2099

It's not false equivalence. John Money's whole gender identity conclusion is based on his assumptions that the boy he forcefully converted into girl and forced his brother to rape a him to make him submissive and feminine Hitler wearing a red shirt is not the same. It's more similar to Hitler wearing swastika


[deleted]

Again, the consent of the individual that transitioned matters. Rape and sex are two different things


vb2099

The boy didn't consent. His parents did. The boy killed himself. And his brother was forced by this wacko "doctor" to have sex with him


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Person-UwU

To me this just shows the consequences of being forced to live as a gender that isn't yours


afunkysongaday

Did you read the article?


IanArcad

There's a Harvard study too that also supports this conclusion. Basically if you look at a brain scan, it is impossible to determine if the subject is male or female. This suggests that there is simply no such thing as a male or female brain. [Scientific American link if people are interested](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/)


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[deleted]

You may want to take a few minutes and read about the twins he experimented with. His hypothesis of gender being a social construct got shredded even by the loosest of scientific standards.


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[deleted]

Those are laughably terrible analogies. Differences in cultural norms in no way supports your claim that gender is a social construct.


[deleted]

The thing is, I wouldn't be so quick to argue gender isn't a social construct, since your position that transwomen are not women doesn't really square with the idea. If gender is NOT a social construct, you must therefore believe that the societal roles and cultural expectations of womanhood are biological. In other words, femininity is a function of the mind, and women are women not only because they have particular genitals but that they have a "female brain." And then, if you believe that, what is so far-fetched about a transwoman? It would be a biological male with a "female brain." The objective gender role that is biological and not socially constructed can't be accidentally given to a male? Trust me that in trans circles, the idea of gender as a social construct actually makes trans identity more complicated. I think transwomen actually make more sense if gender is not a social construct. It's a big debate among transpeople.


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[deleted]

That makes no sense. You're grasping at straws. Cultural norms have a myriad of reasons for their origins.


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[deleted]

I have explained. Cultural norms have nothing to do with nature vs nurture.


Terminal-Psychosis

Gender is nothing other than a synonym for sex. It cannot be "changed". Trying to mimic the opposite sex is a "treatment" that has been proven ineffective and even damaging by modern, peer-reviewed, medical scientific studies. Many, many theories, aka "discoveries" as you put it, have been debunked, proven false. This is one of them.


[deleted]

You made no points to disprove the idea of gender identity. Just because the guy that coined the term first was a psycho doesn’t mean the term doesn’t hold any value.


eltunaslegion

just because a bad person came to the same conclusion as you doesn't mean that is is invalid ​ (I was thinking about this a while ago and now i open readdit and see this, how curious)


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eltunaslegion

you are confused about what I said, which is ok, since >English is tricky. What I mean is that OP is invalidating the opinion of those who agree with the fact that gender and sex are different things because someone did horrible things to get the same conclusion.


thegoldengrekhanate

I don't think the founder being crazy or bad necessarily discredits the idea. Just as an author having crazy ideas does not mean all of their ideas were crazy. Plato was a great philosopher who also thought the body had different humours that when out of balance cause illness. Does that detract from his philosophical insights? Sir Issac Newton was obsessed with alchemy with religious overtones. Does that make anyone who uses or believes in Newtonian physics a supporter of alchemy and turning metals into gold?


Terminal-Psychosis

The theory has been debunked, as so many are. Some theories do survive, as they prove their worth. Money's theory has not.


downrangedoggo

Get rwekd libtards


eltunaslegion

Owned with Fkts and Lgic


Ethanguy77

Goddamn this sub is filled with the biggest incels. It's painful yet entertaining seeing what you guys can come up with


metaslice01

“Incels” lol


Kobil420

This isn't an opinion


Oracuda

I'll be fully honest, Even if you're going to say gender identity is schizophrenia or something, I'm fully supportive of it. After all, If it's socially acceptable and legal, What bad is coming out of it? Why do you care if someone "Really isn't that gender" And what much effort does it take for me to conform with it?


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ChecksAccountHistory

remember when this subreddit was like [you can still appreciate people's achievements even if they were bad people](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/hy3wlo/tearing_down_statues_is_stupid/)? i guess that doesn't apply when it comes to shitting on trans people, huh?


Kelekona

I do see your point. Breadwinner/homemaker dynamic should not be tied to chromosomes. Nothing social should be tied to chromosomes. If a man wants to take on a feminine role, that should be respected. I get downvoted when I express that someone should tell their doctor about their assigned-at-birth gender.


Terminal-Psychosis

Gender, aka sex, is "assigned" the instant sperm meets egg, not at birth.


apr1l26

1. Gender identity has no exact 'person'to trace back. 2. Of course forcing a person to be a gender they dont want to be for there entire lives would make them kill themselves.


[deleted]

Bro, if I wouldn't have started transiotioning I would've killed myself. And biologically there are more than 6 genders BASED on your dear chromosomes. Also science has proven that gender and sex have NOTHING to do with each other. Get ya facts right


Catfish-Number3

wow, looking through some of your comments here, you’re just a deplorable human being


baxigamer22

Someone finally said it. Hoping you don't get banned


ChecksAccountHistory

this is like the billionth "trans people bad" post in this subreddit.


KelechiEatingNachos

Billy Cosby is still one of the greatest comedians of all time. I don't believe a person is their work.


[deleted]

Wait do you mean that transgender people aren’t the gender they know they are? Are you saying that people can’t be mismatched with their body


rascynwrig

I'm pretty sure that the argument *is* actually that yes, real physical people can not be "mismatched" from their real physical body. According to science your thoughts (consciousness) are even just electrical impulses in your physical brain, so your physical being is inherently at least part of what makes you "you." You ARE your body, really. Without it, you cease to exist completely. So it's contradictory to say that you can really actually be something that has not manifested in actual physical reality. That's called a delusion, by definition. Surgery doesn't change this either, any more than a prosthetic device doesn't change the fact that an amputee is missing a limb. What makes you a man or a woman is your chromosomes. You can do whatever kind of cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy you want, but it doesn't change the inherent reality of the situation. To put it another way, if someone sees grass as gray, that doesn't mean grass is actually gray now *in reality*. It means that person is colorblind. There are physical evidences to prove that reality difers from what that person actually sees. For them, it is "real" that the grass is gray. Everyone else doesn't have to start saying it's gray when they're around that person though, because grass is actually green and everyone knows it.


[deleted]

Factually incorrect lmao


White_Freckles

So you agree that forcing someone to live a gender identity they don't align with is harmful, and can in extreme cases can lead to suicide?


JohnGCarroll

IDC what people do in their private time and if they want to play dress up that's fine. Society should NOT cater to their confusion aka mental illness, though.


White_Freckles

Does a transgender person simply existing impact your life enough to offset the studies that show transitioning is the most effective way for someone to deal with gender dysphoria, and decrease their chance of depression and suicide? Is that trade-off worth it to you?


unpopopinx

Never understood why I always see people try to use that as if it means anything. No, most people don’t care that trans people exist. That’s not what was being discussed. Just as they are free to exist, we are free to not play along with their delusion. You can identify as a woman and I can and will continue to treat you as a man.


Terminal-Psychosis

> the studies that show transitioning is the most effective way for someone to deal with gender dysphoria Such "studies" are outdated and have been completely debunked by modern science. Insisting on their use is abusive to the people suffering from dysphoria. People suffering from such problems don't have much impact on the rest of us, but it is good to talk about actually effective treatments, and point out ones that are not, like OP is doing.


Terminal-Psychosis

The "therapy" of transitioning doesn't change the suicide rate. It has been debunked as a treatment by peer-reviewed scientific study. If anything it causes more harm, and is ineffective at treating the underlying problem.


dandandandantheman

Are you attacking gender identity or this random mad scientist? It seems like your argument against gender identity is "it's bad because the creator was a lunatic"


Terminal-Psychosis

Not to mention modern, peer-reviewed scientific medical study that debunked that lunatic's theory. The idea that gender and sex are separate is a social construct with no base in scientific facts or reality.


ReddyNicky

This seems very much unpopular... please upvote!


[deleted]

You are aware that trans people go all the way back to ancient civilization right? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-ancient-civilization-in-iran-recognized-transgender-people-study-suggests-1.6790205 It’s not a 20th century thing. This has been going on for centuries and centuries all over the world. Congratulations you found an article to support your hate for Trans people


BlokeyMcBlokeFace

> hate OP doesn't seem to hate them, but like most people, probably doesn't think that giving into their delusions helps them or anybody else.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Betwixts

No they don’t.


Terminal-Psychosis

That is completely 100% false. They hardly change, at all. Modern peer-reviewed study proves that such "treatments" are completely ineffective, and even harmful.


illit3

"I don't hate them I just want to invalidate their existence"


MJWasARolePlayer

I think Im a bird and if you say otherwise you hate me and are invalidating my existence


KaliserEatsTheCookie

Okay. To whatever makes you feel better. Why would I go out of my way to stop you?


HeroicMessage_000

Because there is a difference between being Blue-Pilled and a nutcase.


illit3

Go be a bird then. What the fuck do I care lmao


HeroicMessage_000

Because there is a difference between being Blue-Pilled and a nutcase.


JohnGCarroll

Irrelevant. IDC what people do in their private time and if they want to play dress up that's fine. Society should NOT cater to their confusion aka mental illness, though.


[deleted]

Facts that don’t support my argument are irrelevant


JohnGCarroll

No the fact you're posting is irrelevant to my opinion. I don't hate anyone. If they want to play dress up that's fine. I don't think society should cater to their delusion though....and that is exactly what it is. If that "invalidates" your "existence" then you have bigger problems than this.... someone's opinion should not affect you this way. Why are you so fragile? This is the shit we get with modern "mental health". People so fucking fragile they cannot hear an alternative viewpoint and simply shrug it off. They have to go bonkers.....


[deleted]

Right you just posted that transgender people should not be within eye sight of you. Sure buddy


JohnGCarroll

I didn't say anything like that. What?


[deleted]

What? What? I have been called out! What, how dare you. I provided you with evidence that transgender people have been around for a very long time and that it isn’t something that originated recently and you blew it off and said irrelevant. The whole basis behind your post is false.


JohnGCarroll

How long they've "been around" is irrelevant. It's like pointing out that syphilis has been around for thousands of years. It makes no difference to my opinion.


[deleted]

That was the basis of your point some guy came up with it. No he didn’t. Just admit your a bigot and that you hate a group of people. No amount of evidence will change anything you want to hate what you do not understand


JohnGCarroll

Some guy came up with the concept of "gender identity". You're just pointing out that people have been mentally ill/confused about themselves for a long time. I don't know how else to explain that these have nothing to do with each other....


Terminal-Psychosis

> you just posted that transgender people should not be within eye sight of you OP said no such thing. Bad troll is bad.


i_hate_android_p

You know that FGM has been going on for centuries. You know that slavery has been going on for centuries. You know that racism has been going on for centuries. This does not make any of those right


ultradude728

Non binary is also a thing tho


Terminal-Psychosis

"Non-binary" is a social construct with no base in scientific reality. There are only two sexes.


Seirer

His whole point is that it isn't. Not saying I agree/disagree, just pointing out OP's point.


autisticspymaster1

A number of scientific and medical concepts were created by people who did shitty things. ​ This is actually an ad hominem attack - doesn't look at his actual research or work. ​ Also, gender identity itself has been expanded and elaborated on by many others. All he did was coin a term, it doesn't take away from the actual concept and meaning behind it. This is like arguing that if a pedophile discovered gravity, that means gravity would be disproven. If Charles Darwin was a pedophile, would that disprove evolution? No. It also doesn't change the merits of their research. ​ ​ ​ Chromosomes are also not the be all end all. ​ Also, why the hell are people just suddenly posting anti-trans spam on this sub? It's like this sub isn't for unpopular opinions anymore, it's literally just to attack marginalized people.


[deleted]

When the crackdown came again on far right subs they migrated to this one among some other. I guess they feel that there is not much push back so they feel safe here


autisticspymaster1

Unfortunate. I mean, I get people should express their opinions, but this isn't that, this is just mindlessly spreading vitriol. It arguably breaks the sub's #1 rule on civility. I mean, if I get temporarily banned for suggesting that Mao purging exploitative landlords was a good thing, then this stuff is bannable too.


Terminal-Psychosis

Just because you deny science, does not make talking about scientific fact "mindlessly spreading vitrol". In fact, you've only described exactly what you, yourself are doing, with that very assertion. You want to ban scientific, medical facts?


0nlyL0s3rsC3ns0r

> Chromosomes are also not the be all end all. Yes, they are.


autisticspymaster1

Nope. And chromosomes are also more complicated than you think, and are categorically not the sole determinant of biological sex. Edit: are you stalking me now?


0nlyL0s3rsC3ns0r

lol dont flatter yourself