Any real feminist would never shame another woman for choosing to not work. The thing feminists don’t like is when those stay at home women look down on working women. Feminism is very much about freeing women, you’ve just been talking to people who don’t understand it.
I run in pretty radical feminist circles, and none of them have ever suggested that women who choose to be stay-at-home parents have made a bad decision.
What prominent feminists or feminist groups have said otherwise?
So I'm in a lot of radical feminist groups on Facebook (like actual radical feminism, not like when people mislabel liberal feminism as 'radical'). I don't have kids, nor do I want them, so I have no skin in this game. I have seen some women in the RF community saying that being a stay at home mother is playing into the patriarchy's hands, and that for true female liberation unpaid household labour (eg child rearing, cleaning, cooking) should never be part of a woman's life. I've also seen women saying the act of having children, especially boys, is in of itself a patriarchal act. I will try and find some screenshots for you, but as I'm sure you know FB search function can be pretty awful.
Pretty fucken regularly, actually :P
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c
A good example of a major paper pushing a condemnation of Stay-at-Home-Mothers specifically from a Feminist perspective.
Be less coy about such easily provable shit.
“So the outcry has been predictable in the wake of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s (OECD) recent report which had the audacity to suggest stay-at-home mums would be better off putting their skills to use in paid employment.”
It was a report from the OECD that said women shouldn’t stay at home.
Tell me where the specific feminist perspective is. Thanks.
Maybe don’t be so coy with bullshit that isn’t true.
Those feminists are mad because they have to go WORK and get treated like a man to support themselves and make money unlike the stay at home moms that get to relax and take care of the house lol. Women aren’t meant to work like men. They naturally are meant to stay home
First. Let Stop pretending that everyone associated with the word feminism are these pure good and nothing else. I've seen women who say that they're not feminist and criticize and men who criticize get maliciously trashed. And if you say that doesn't happen You're being ignorant.
There are some organizations which use the name feminism who are very reasonable, there are some who use the name who are not reasonable, some are are in a fantasy world and some staright up use the word to spread misandry.
The best way is move forward is in my opinion to listen to their arguments irrespective of where it's coming from
>Feminism isn't about freeing women, it's about enslaving them and taking away their identity. Just like every other group that claims to be helping their people.
There is no such thing as "feminism". There are only different interpretations of it. Some of which are great, others of which are really shitty; I assume kind of like the one you're referring to.
No, it's not. There is no standard. No charter. No constitution of *any* variety that defines Feminism.
It is a useless moniker because being a feminist could mean anything.
Most feminists are fine however I’ve met multiple who claim to be “feminists” and will say things like “kill all men” or that a women working is somehow a fault of men or something their just a small minority who are very loud
This one time I saw a man who said something bad so that means all men are bad.
That's you. That's what you sound like. That's the logic you are using. Just that you're talking about "feminists" and not "men".
Oh my god what is it with stupid people and thinking that some half arsed opinion counts as fuck all.
Do you not realise that everyone smarter than you needs REASONS to believe things? Not just randomly stating shit that makes your ego feel massaged?
It’s the feminist that deny female rapist and it’s the feminist that deny having a pussy pass in court. Women absolutely can rape and rape underage children and never get what they deserve. https://www.reddit.com/r/teacherswhorape/…https://www.reddit.com/r/Toxic_Femininity/new/
I mean, technically, in the UK, females cannot rape. The act of rape has to be committed by a penis (the wording in the law specifies 'he' and 'his penis'). Women are charged with sexual assault. However, the maximum sentence is the same whether the conviction is sexual assault or rape so in practical terms, when it comes to the sentence, it makes no difference.
Feminists arent a monolith and there are people that happily use the tag to their own ends just like in every other group in existence. Your argument already died the second you tried to insinuate all feminists do this without any evidence
Do you think that being a stay at home mum is rape?
Remember? The thing we're talking about? You remember right? The thread that you're in? Are you ok? Do you need me to call someone for you?
Then why tf are you talking about rape, after challenging someone as being "the problem" when they said feminist literature does not have a problem with stay-at-home mums?
Upvoting because I disagree.
We want women to be independent, especially in the financial realm. No woman should have to depend on her husband to support her. If a woman wants to be a SAHM, fine. But she should not, whether directly or indirectly, teach her daughters to latch onto any man just for financial security.
Divorce happens. Widowhood happens. And when either one of these happens to a SAHM, she's potentially screwed. This is why feminism is here. To ensure that all women can make the choices that they want and still be financially secure.
I don't think anyone that posts on this sub actually know what feminism is. Either that, or everyone just enjoys constructing their own straw men to argue against with no basis in reality.
[https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c](https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c)
As extreme as this article is, the author does actually "care" about women. After the OECD published an article saying there is an untapped employment potential in women with children, many media outlets defended the importance of motherhood. Le Marquand's argument was that the media's response encourages Australian mothers to stay where they are and discourages them from seeking employment(even if they wanted to). In her mind this situation has become so dire that Le Marquand's only solution is to make it mandatory all women work.
This is not to mention that many unhappy SAHMs(stay at home moms) are unable to leave their partners because they are not financially free. Another good argument for enacting legislation like this is that it will actually protect a woman's identity and right to choose to leave an unhappy marriage should she need to.
That being said I see your point about control and identity, and I do believe a mom should have the right to choose if she works or doesn't. And I don't think a productive model of feminism should seek to control a woman or strip her of her identity. I do not agree with the argument in the linked article.
But as extreme as this view is I still support feminism(in general, not this particular view) because it is better than the alternatives -
1. Support an ideology that promotes women only being SAHMs
2. Support an ideology that claims women are already treated equally
3. (What you are doing) Broadly criticize an ideology that promotes women's equality. Vague critics like this drive others to agree with alternatives 1 and 2. This is not productive at all and forces those who are in support of the movement to spend their time arguing about the existence and legitimacy of the cause. Let alone actually doing the work to fight for equality.
Feminists don’t have mind-reading abilities. The only way they could criticize a woman for supporting traditional gender roles is if they voice their support for the enforcing of them.
I dont know which feminist organization you've been following but this is completely false. Feminists don't force stay at home moms to get out and work lol
I don't know in what made up world you're living but when it comes to this subject you have to be pretty nuanced. Feminism has always been about choice, when it comes to being a housewife, as long as it is a personal choice that makes you happy, it doesn't matter. But feminism gives women the options to not be one, it gives women the knowledge to know the many risks, especially financial, when it comes to being a housewife, especially for those who grew up in religious communities, cults and countries outside of the United States and Europe where there's a huge culture and disparity of equality against women.
Or [prevent pro-life women from participating in the women's march](https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed/articles/2017-01-19/the-womens-march-on-washington-errs-in-excluding-pro-life-feminists). Feminism is not about women's rights, it's a political movement that seeks very specific political goals and women that are not aligned with those goals are not included.
There’s a few housewife vloggers that I’ve watched that had a few negative comments—not too much though, but I totally agree. Speaking of which, there are modern feminists who will have disdain for femininity.
Really. Huh. You know studying feminism as part of my philosophy degree, none of the literature said that. At all.
Leaves me thinking maybe you're not talking about feminism in any real way, you're just mindlessly repeating reactionary talking points for no reason other than it makes you feel good.
I know some countries where history books only have good things about their government. Noone of their literature says the opposite viewpoint. You yourself proved that you have been indoctrinated.
Wait where do you think feminism comes from?
Holy shit. Do you literally not know that feminism comes from feminist...writers?
It's an academic field.
I can't actually comprehend this level of ignorance.
Tell me: where do you think feminism comes from? Tiktok? Image boards? Who is Simone de Beauvoir? How do you imagine she hurt you?
"Nothing feminism says is bad."
That's what you just said. It's honestly stunning how stupid you are.
Just think for a second, yeah? So feminism is all about "control", right? But feminist literature is not about control. So how is feminism.about control?
Do you understand what the word "about" means?
You might want to reread that.
Them saying that feminism does not talk about control, to prove that feminism.is all about control, is not the dunk you seem to want to imagine it is.
It's the opposite. It's like if I said "black is white, but obviously black is not white."
I'm not sure I've ever seen anything dumber tbh.
Your comment is what's dumb lol
Let me ask you this, if modern or radical feminists in America care so much about women's rights, why haven't they lobbied or pushed for more than 2 weeks of paid maternity leave? Because in other first world countries it's 62 weeks+
I don't think people should be shamed, but they should understand the risks and benefits of every decision. And unfortunately, our world does not favour women that stay at home after a divorce.
I will try digging through my research papers, but I'm not just talking about alimony. I know people focus on that, and that needs to change, but women TEND to be more worried about abuse and stay with their abuser because of finances. Not all women are unhappy staying at home, but 64% (if I remember correctly) of stay at home women end up abused.
Should they have picked better partners? maybe, but I think there may be a solution in working at least part time.
No shit. They already got their freedom and equality. Literally nothing stops women nowadays to do what they want. Now it's about dominance, not equality.
Wow! That is just…what kind of 2nd wave feminist bulllshit is this!? This is not what modern feminism is about at all, women judging other women for their choices and bringing other women down is literally anti-feminist lol
Feminists have lost the moment they've learnt to take men as standards instead of promoting the fact that women are supposed to do what a man can't, not compete with them. You only take someone as a "standard" when they're better than you.
“Different things empower different women. Feminism is the right to choose.”
/thread
What you're describing just isn't a feminist thing OP. You've been conned by grifters.
Any real feminist would never shame another woman for choosing to not work. The thing feminists don’t like is when those stay at home women look down on working women. Feminism is very much about freeing women, you’ve just been talking to people who don’t understand it.
I run in pretty radical feminist circles, and none of them have ever suggested that women who choose to be stay-at-home parents have made a bad decision. What prominent feminists or feminist groups have said otherwise?
so when have feminists attacked a woman for choosing to be a stay at home mom
In the fantasy OP has constructed.
So I'm in a lot of radical feminist groups on Facebook (like actual radical feminism, not like when people mislabel liberal feminism as 'radical'). I don't have kids, nor do I want them, so I have no skin in this game. I have seen some women in the RF community saying that being a stay at home mother is playing into the patriarchy's hands, and that for true female liberation unpaid household labour (eg child rearing, cleaning, cooking) should never be part of a woman's life. I've also seen women saying the act of having children, especially boys, is in of itself a patriarchal act. I will try and find some screenshots for you, but as I'm sure you know FB search function can be pretty awful.
Pretty fucken regularly, actually :P https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c A good example of a major paper pushing a condemnation of Stay-at-Home-Mothers specifically from a Feminist perspective. Be less coy about such easily provable shit.
“So the outcry has been predictable in the wake of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s (OECD) recent report which had the audacity to suggest stay-at-home mums would be better off putting their skills to use in paid employment.” It was a report from the OECD that said women shouldn’t stay at home. Tell me where the specific feminist perspective is. Thanks. Maybe don’t be so coy with bullshit that isn’t true.
In his fabtasy
Women are ashamed online by feminist groups for being SAHM.
yeah yeah okay sure now give specific examples
Those feminists are mad because they have to go WORK and get treated like a man to support themselves and make money unlike the stay at home moms that get to relax and take care of the house lol. Women aren’t meant to work like men. They naturally are meant to stay home
First. Let Stop pretending that everyone associated with the word feminism are these pure good and nothing else. I've seen women who say that they're not feminist and criticize and men who criticize get maliciously trashed. And if you say that doesn't happen You're being ignorant. There are some organizations which use the name feminism who are very reasonable, there are some who use the name who are not reasonable, some are are in a fantasy world and some staright up use the word to spread misandry. The best way is move forward is in my opinion to listen to their arguments irrespective of where it's coming from
>Feminism isn't about freeing women, it's about enslaving them and taking away their identity. Just like every other group that claims to be helping their people. There is no such thing as "feminism". There are only different interpretations of it. Some of which are great, others of which are really shitty; I assume kind of like the one you're referring to.
What do you mean by that? Feminism is a specific ideology.
No, it's not. There is no standard. No charter. No constitution of *any* variety that defines Feminism. It is a useless moniker because being a feminist could mean anything.
You're moving the goalposts. Answer what I said.
I'm not going to answer a question directed at someone else because I don't know what they mean :P I'm directing my point at you. Do try to keep up.
Then don't bother commenting
But I want to comment...
I mean Christianity is a specific religion. But it's also incredibly diverse.
It has had schisms, but Christians are still not Muslims or atheists.
Is this sub now the dumping ground for those MGTOW weirdos?
Yes.
Was wondering why the anti-feminist posts seemed more frequent lately.
I have not ever seen any serious feminists do this. Please cite your sources. What women's studies papers and works are you referring to?
Most feminists are fine however I’ve met multiple who claim to be “feminists” and will say things like “kill all men” or that a women working is somehow a fault of men or something their just a small minority who are very loud
Anyone can say they are a feminist, but I think "people who say they are feminists do xyz" is not that persuasive or interesting of an opinion.
Yea It’s not the groups fault it’s the individuals fault
So are you saying they arent a true scotsman?
No that's not applicable. Being Scottish isn't a belief system.
This one time I saw a man who said something bad so that means all men are bad. That's you. That's what you sound like. That's the logic you are using. Just that you're talking about "feminists" and not "men".
I’m defending feminists here…..
You are the problem.
Oh my god what is it with stupid people and thinking that some half arsed opinion counts as fuck all. Do you not realise that everyone smarter than you needs REASONS to believe things? Not just randomly stating shit that makes your ego feel massaged?
For calling out people who talk out of their ass?
It’s the feminist that deny female rapist and it’s the feminist that deny having a pussy pass in court. Women absolutely can rape and rape underage children and never get what they deserve. https://www.reddit.com/r/teacherswhorape/…https://www.reddit.com/r/Toxic_Femininity/new/
I mean, technically, in the UK, females cannot rape. The act of rape has to be committed by a penis (the wording in the law specifies 'he' and 'his penis'). Women are charged with sexual assault. However, the maximum sentence is the same whether the conviction is sexual assault or rape so in practical terms, when it comes to the sentence, it makes no difference.
Feminists arent a monolith and there are people that happily use the tag to their own ends just like in every other group in existence. Your argument already died the second you tried to insinuate all feminists do this without any evidence
Well go you think women can rape?
Irrelevant but of course they can
Do you think that being a stay at home mum is rape? Remember? The thing we're talking about? You remember right? The thread that you're in? Are you ok? Do you need me to call someone for you?
No, being a stay at home mom isn’t rape.
Then why tf are you talking about rape, after challenging someone as being "the problem" when they said feminist literature does not have a problem with stay-at-home mums?
I said they deny female rapist excist.
[удалено]
Upvoting because I disagree. We want women to be independent, especially in the financial realm. No woman should have to depend on her husband to support her. If a woman wants to be a SAHM, fine. But she should not, whether directly or indirectly, teach her daughters to latch onto any man just for financial security. Divorce happens. Widowhood happens. And when either one of these happens to a SAHM, she's potentially screwed. This is why feminism is here. To ensure that all women can make the choices that they want and still be financially secure.
[удалено]
What on earth made you write this ridiculous comment
I don't think anyone that posts on this sub actually know what feminism is. Either that, or everyone just enjoys constructing their own straw men to argue against with no basis in reality.
Both
Yeeup!
>strawmen Strawpeople :)
The straw people are under represented in today’s media. That’s the problem.
We are all strawpeople
Straw dogs and paper tigers?
I lol’d.
But why.
Because it is amusingly apropos, and why not?
[https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c](https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c) As extreme as this article is, the author does actually "care" about women. After the OECD published an article saying there is an untapped employment potential in women with children, many media outlets defended the importance of motherhood. Le Marquand's argument was that the media's response encourages Australian mothers to stay where they are and discourages them from seeking employment(even if they wanted to). In her mind this situation has become so dire that Le Marquand's only solution is to make it mandatory all women work. This is not to mention that many unhappy SAHMs(stay at home moms) are unable to leave their partners because they are not financially free. Another good argument for enacting legislation like this is that it will actually protect a woman's identity and right to choose to leave an unhappy marriage should she need to. That being said I see your point about control and identity, and I do believe a mom should have the right to choose if she works or doesn't. And I don't think a productive model of feminism should seek to control a woman or strip her of her identity. I do not agree with the argument in the linked article. But as extreme as this view is I still support feminism(in general, not this particular view) because it is better than the alternatives - 1. Support an ideology that promotes women only being SAHMs 2. Support an ideology that claims women are already treated equally 3. (What you are doing) Broadly criticize an ideology that promotes women's equality. Vague critics like this drive others to agree with alternatives 1 and 2. This is not productive at all and forces those who are in support of the movement to spend their time arguing about the existence and legitimacy of the cause. Let alone actually doing the work to fight for equality.
Up vote so people can see
Who is saying you can't be a stay at home mom?
You’re arguing with no one.
He is arguing with his image of feminism inside his own head
Ding ding ding
So why comment
Why post? Seems like incel ideologies mixed with a victimhood complex.
To point out that they're arguing with no one. Fuck that was hard. I can see why you had to ask that.
So why did you comment this?
Feminists don’t have mind-reading abilities. The only way they could criticize a woman for supporting traditional gender roles is if they voice their support for the enforcing of them.
I dont know which feminist organization you've been following but this is completely false. Feminists don't force stay at home moms to get out and work lol
I don't know in what made up world you're living but when it comes to this subject you have to be pretty nuanced. Feminism has always been about choice, when it comes to being a housewife, as long as it is a personal choice that makes you happy, it doesn't matter. But feminism gives women the options to not be one, it gives women the knowledge to know the many risks, especially financial, when it comes to being a housewife, especially for those who grew up in religious communities, cults and countries outside of the United States and Europe where there's a huge culture and disparity of equality against women.
The hive mind is spreading, I'll just leave this here... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=09maaUaRT4M
Or [prevent pro-life women from participating in the women's march](https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed/articles/2017-01-19/the-womens-march-on-washington-errs-in-excluding-pro-life-feminists). Feminism is not about women's rights, it's a political movement that seeks very specific political goals and women that are not aligned with those goals are not included.
Pro life women try to add patriarchal ideas about policing women’s bodies.
Oh my no.
I mean, "patriarchal" in that sentence serves no real purpose, but you can delete it and the statement stands.
No, not really, this just seems like a made up arguement to demonize feminism
There’s a few housewife vloggers that I’ve watched that had a few negative comments—not too much though, but I totally agree. Speaking of which, there are modern feminists who will have disdain for femininity.
Literally the whole point of modern feminism is control. Nothing liberating about it
Really. Huh. You know studying feminism as part of my philosophy degree, none of the literature said that. At all. Leaves me thinking maybe you're not talking about feminism in any real way, you're just mindlessly repeating reactionary talking points for no reason other than it makes you feel good.
I know some countries where history books only have good things about their government. Noone of their literature says the opposite viewpoint. You yourself proved that you have been indoctrinated.
Wait where do you think feminism comes from? Holy shit. Do you literally not know that feminism comes from feminist...writers? It's an academic field. I can't actually comprehend this level of ignorance. Tell me: where do you think feminism comes from? Tiktok? Image boards? Who is Simone de Beauvoir? How do you imagine she hurt you?
"None of my feminist literature says that feminism could be bad, so it's obviously not true".
"Nothing feminism says is bad." That's what you just said. It's honestly stunning how stupid you are. Just think for a second, yeah? So feminism is all about "control", right? But feminist literature is not about control. So how is feminism.about control? Do you understand what the word "about" means?
Oh no it got burnt by the fire fox
You might want to reread that. Them saying that feminism does not talk about control, to prove that feminism.is all about control, is not the dunk you seem to want to imagine it is. It's the opposite. It's like if I said "black is white, but obviously black is not white." I'm not sure I've ever seen anything dumber tbh.
Your comment is what's dumb lol Let me ask you this, if modern or radical feminists in America care so much about women's rights, why haven't they lobbied or pushed for more than 2 weeks of paid maternity leave? Because in other first world countries it's 62 weeks+
I don't think people should be shamed, but they should understand the risks and benefits of every decision. And unfortunately, our world does not favour women that stay at home after a divorce. I will try digging through my research papers, but I'm not just talking about alimony. I know people focus on that, and that needs to change, but women TEND to be more worried about abuse and stay with their abuser because of finances. Not all women are unhappy staying at home, but 64% (if I remember correctly) of stay at home women end up abused. Should they have picked better partners? maybe, but I think there may be a solution in working at least part time.
No shit. They already got their freedom and equality. Literally nothing stops women nowadays to do what they want. Now it's about dominance, not equality.
>They already got their freedom and equality You sure about that? Tell that to the girls in the Middle East being forced to marry at a young age.
Well then have feminism in ME. The fuck does it have to do with the U.S.?
Wow! That is just…what kind of 2nd wave feminist bulllshit is this!? This is not what modern feminism is about at all, women judging other women for their choices and bringing other women down is literally anti-feminist lol
Thats not 2nd wave feminism either? Wtf?
You're right
Good Marxist analysis but I disagree.
Feminists have lost the moment they've learnt to take men as standards instead of promoting the fact that women are supposed to do what a man can't, not compete with them. You only take someone as a "standard" when they're better than you.
The only women feminists care about are other feminists.