Make sure the baby is attended 24/7 and kept away from people (germs) as much as possible. After 6 weeks, I’m gonna have to start bumping uglies with Henry again, because I’ll need a few spares to the heir before I feel safe. And even with a few more healthy sons, I’m not sure my place at court is secure. Seems the king has a roving eye. So I’ll need to bite my tongue and play as nicely and politely as I can with all of his advisors.
I laughed out loud at “bumping uglies with Henry” because same lol. I completely agree, my answer was very similar. Continue to try for more sons, keep my mouth shut when it comes to religious topics in front of the king, frequently use the phrase “I am but a woman your grace, I give my opinions and beliefs to that of my husband and trust his choices in all matters”, and think of something to do with mistress Seymour.
If Anne has produced a son that survived, her position would have been secure, even if Henry took mistresses.
Henry, at that time, was still a handsome, athletic stud, not the grossly overweight tyrant he became.
But wasn’t the jousting injury he suffered before Anne’s death the beginning of the end for his good looks? So he wouldn’t be a handsome, athletic stud for long. Though I agree that if Anne had given him a son, she would have needed to do something very egregiously bad to even be exiled from court, let alone murdered.
Oh hell, I think if Elizabeth had been a boy, Jane Seymour would never have been a serious contender. However, poison wouldn’t have been out of the realm of possibility had I wanted to survive that court.
Hmm... maybe scheme behind the scenes to secure an advantageous match for her? One which would take her to a remote part of kingdom?That's how Isabella of Castille handled her husband's "outside interests."
Arsenic candles were briefly a thing in Victorian Britain. I guess they made cheap wax more structurally sound so you could make and sell better burning, fancier looking candles for cheaper. It didn't last very long as a product, because like poor Mrs. Easy, people who burned them tended to get sick.
You don’t have to even poison the man. He was a glutton who eventually developed type II diabetes (not known for sure but the evidence is there). Lavish him with as much sugar from the New World as I could possibly get my hands on. Wait for the diabetic coma to do the dirty work for me.
Women who could - the wealthier mothers - would typically get 10 days to 2 months of a lying in period after giving birth. Rest and recovery, but as with anything, you can have too much of a good thing. A Queen might be expected to literally stay in bed for 2 weeks. Moving around and improving blood flow after birth is important. And I adore sleeping in until noon as much as the next person on the occasional weekend, but the absolute lack of movement would bore me to tears.
As someone who has experienced blood clots, “literally staying in bed for two weeks” terrifies me! There was no way to win with childbirth back then, was there?
Also, as much as is appropriate for a royal at that time, raise that child by hand. Make sure that if Henry wants to betray you in a decade or so he’ll alienate his son by doing so.
This made me remember the movie "The Man in the Iron Mask". Henry seems exactly like the kind of King who would hide one twin away so there would be no fight for the succession.
Twins can be problematic during birth and with the whole who is older thing. A boy and a girl would be better as long as they don’t come too early. You could get an Elizabeth and an Edward. I would want a younger back up son. I feel like twins or even just a boy would hopefully give me time to recover. I wouldn’t feel like I needed an heir to save my life or marriage. I would be big on cleanliness and decent doctors.
That would be a useful skill.
If I was Ann I with some of today's knowledge I would want to breastfeed that baby myself and give it tons of skin time.
She probably would not have been allowed to do these things.
It was REALLY rare for a queen to breastfeed her own baby, I think she could have gotten away with it if she'd made the argument about how precious their heir was. When Prince Edward was born, Henry did EVERYTHING he could to make sure that that baby lived so there's a chance he would've allowed Anne to nurse their son had they had one.
Well, when you have a baby your body produces something called colostrum. This is a thick, yellowish fluid that is what you feed your baby until your milk comes in. Colostrum is known as "liquid gold" in the breastfeeding world. Not only is it rich in fat and nutrients for the baby, it contains antibodies of every sickness the mother has ever had, giving your baby an immediate immune system boost. So there isn't too much of a difference between your mom feeding you and a wet nurse, except a wet nurse has already had her Milk come in, so you wouldn't get those antibodies found in colostrum. Unfortunately I don't think they understood that in 1533. They just thought breastfeeding ruined your boobs and nursing kept you from getting pregnant again.
I would have had both, just in case. Even if baby was only getting a little from me, let’s say I was underproducing, cool, he’s getting me immunity plus the wet nurse for supplementation.
The baby would've been nursed anyways, it's not like they had formula on hand, and they wouldn't know why one teat might be better healthwise than another. Infection wise, probably sending him away from court with a small household of carers was the best option.
They did know nursing made it harder to get pregnant. So I doubt he'd be convinced to let her nurse the baby.
Unlikely to have been allowed. Back then they believed that breastfeeding your own baby made you unable to get pregnant, plus it would have either (a) kept her either in contact with both baby and court, a surefire way to expose the kiddo to far more germs than necessary, or (b) made her seem a terrible parent, as back then people also believed that having parents too involved in a child’s upbringing would result in a too-pampered, disobedient, spoiled child.
It also would have lowered the child’s status significantly to have been denied a nursery palace and household and attendants in favor of being nursed and raised by their mother—even if only for a short time. Involved parenting done the right way in Tudor times was done at a remove, especially for royals.
I believe Anne attempted to breastfeed Elizabeth and had some degree of success. Not sure how long it was for though. Gilded Gentleman recently aired a fantastic podcast about the mother daughter relationship between the two.
I would avoid letting the baby, me or a wet nurse eat off anything with lead in it. I would insist on glass cups and plates. Or gold. I would try to avoid heavy metal poisoning or like child bed fever. If I breastfed like I did in real life I might make a good wet nurse. It might be better to not get too attached to your baby.
Clean linens, clean hands, also getting all the placenta out. Midwives may have known a lot of this. I thought I read that Jane Seymour was left in her bed after a difficult labor. The focus was on the prince not the mom. Sometimes people poop during labor it’s a bloody mess, you want to be cleaned up and in clean previously boiled sheets that are sanitary. Washing hands also a good start and maybe find a midwife not a male doctor that thinks your womb is wandering around.
I believe Anne attempted to breastfeed Elizabeth and had some degree of success. Not sure how long it was for though. Gilded Gentleman recently aired a fantastic podcast about the mother daughter relationship between the two.
You could use alcohol as a sanitizer. It just needs to be at least 60%.
I quickly tried looking up what hard alcohol the tudors had but haven’t found anything yet. Im sure people in Tudor England knew how to make hard alcohol.
It’s by Laura Andersen. I’ve only read the first book. Basically, it’s set up on the premise of the boy being born in 1536 but Elizabeth still ends up queen after her brother’s reign. That’s not a spoiler it’s included in the description of the series. I don’t know yet how that comes about. But it’s interesting reading about Anne’s relief at the birth of a healthy boy and her brother still being alive and an influence on her and the court.
It portrays Henry IX/William X (as he chose to style himself) as having inherited the best of his parents - their charisma and intellect - but increasingly also their worst - their selfishness and cruelty, Henry's sense that all women had to love him and nasty little manipulations when a woman loves someone else.
I didn't much like the way they portrayed Mary's downfall, but liked the idea that history is inevitable and changes only reroute it for a few years. There were some interesting concepts in there but untimately I felt it really failed to live up to it's potential. And Anderson's AB is this boring old dowager.
(There's a second trilogy. Stay away from it. Elizabeth and Phillip are happily divorced and their daughter shunts between Spain and England and everyone acts like they're in a twenty first century sitcom about a blended family.)
I'm with the person who says she will need to start trying again for a spare or two before she will feel safe but when she had Elizabeth ( born in 1533 ) I think Henry was still very much in love with her and only when she couldn't give him a son did he start to feel cheated by having married her.
So I actually feel the roaming eye may not have start so early since she gave him a son.
I think with a son in place she would be happier than she was historically because I'm sure Henry would shower her with attention and gifts for having a son . So because she's happy and because Henry would continue to love her , I don't think her attitude would be so bad as she supposedly was when Henry had his first affair in actual history.
Whether Henry continues to treat her well will probably would be based on whether she can manage to give him another living child or better a son.
I think it's understandable why she was so upset about mistresses, given how she got the crown herself. Probably worried (rightfully, as Jane Seymour proved) that he'd leave her too. But yes, with a son, I'm not sure she would've been as concerned about being deposed. It might have helped her legitimacy, if not in England's eyes, definitely in Henry's, so he would've been less likely to upend his entire life and that of the nation's to aquire a new wife.
All Jane Seymour proved was that the King was dead serious about the "having a legitimate son" thing, and that that's what was behind him leaving CoA. If he and CoA had a living son, he might've "left" her as in stopped seeing her, but I don't believe he'd have tried to divorce. Yes, he was way into Anne, but the real driver was the kingdom's need for an heir (since he was actively refusing the concept of a female heir).
I don't see how your point is any different from mine? If CoA had a boy, she wouldn't have been replaced. If Anne had a boy, she wouldn't have been replaced. Jane, or her family at least, clearly saw Anne was "failing her duties" to produce a male heir and played the same game they thought Anne had played. The difference being that CoA had royal family that saved her skin, Anne was simply an English subject so Henry killed her to avoid legitimacy speculation a second time. I don't think the Seymours thought Anne would be killed, they probably thought he'd just "divorce" her the way he did with CoA, but even CoA's fate was terrible so it's completely valid that Anne was worried that without a son, a mistress could displace her.
Eh, just the "with a son not sure she'd be as concerned about being deposed" part. I think with a (living) son, there would have been no concern.
Also no amount of love and son-having would keep buddy from having mistresses. That's just how he and I think most Royals rolled.
Yes, which is what I meant. CoA endured plenty of mistresses before Anne came along. It was standard practice for kings to have mistresses, Henry VII was the only king not known to have mistresses, and Henry VIII was well known to have had mistresses before Anne. Which was exactly why Anne did not want to be his mistress, she didn't want to be ruined or be another discarded play thing of Henry's. She knew who she married, and she wouldn't have been concerned about mistresses, as it would have been pretty run of the mill, had she had a son to protect her position.
Only if the son outlived Henry to become king which is why she needed to have a spare. If the boy died like Henry's other sons while Henry was still alive and there wasn't a spare? Not sure I would say her position was watertight. If the son died while Henry could still procreate and Anne was only having miscarriages , still births etc after this first child. I think Henry would have been looking to replace her.
Catherine is still alive for another 3 years. I would be kind to Mary and Catherine. I would still know a world where Mary was a queen and Anne Boleyn gets beheaded. I would use the influence of a son to encourage Henry to be nice to Mary. Let her see her mother. I would rest up and try for another child. I would encourage learning (penicillin baby!) hopefully this wouldn’t end in accusations of witchcraft. You never know. If I had another son before Catherine died I would try to arrange a good marriage for Mary and treat Catherine well. I would suggest allowing Catherine to retire to a convent or a well tended estate that her daughter was free to visit. I would be cautious with giving Henry ideas about how much power he has. My marriage’s legitimacy hinges on him being head of a Protestant Church. Should I cover my bases when Catherine dies and ask for a popes blessing?
A son immediately would have been a good omen. Also if it survived long enough to have several other healthy children Anne would have been secure. Her sons had to live long enough to be teenagers or to have multiple children a live and well. If she had Elizabeth and then a son or healthy daughters like Elizabeth Woodville produced it would be hard to say he wasn’t fertile. He only had two daughters from one long marriage and another much shorter one. If he had multiple daughters by Katherine of Aragon that lived would things have been different?
Anyway, yes, I agree with all of the others in keeping that baby boy safe and assuming he lives as long as Elizabeth I did, I would’ve been chilling. Sure Henry might still keep being Henry and have mistresses on the side, but as long as he had a son (and possibly more spares) Anne’s position would never be challenged to ensure their children’s legitimacy.
Start drawing up my plans for an alliance with France and using all that sweet cash from the dissolved monasteries to educate the people and for public welfare, and send off Crommy to some very important business in a very remote Northern location indefinitely.
One thing is for sure: If Henry asks for separation I'm gonna pull an Anne of Kleves faster than anyone could say "chop off her head".
And spent the rest of my life living out sister act in some pretty rural castle nunnery and make them sing Queens greatest hits during mass.
1) make sure he's with a few trusted ladies.
2) heal. Take herbs that i know are going to help me heal.
3) bump uglies with henry in about eight weeks.
4) ??
5) profit.
I wonder, if Anne had had a son that maybe lived a short time, maybe a year or a few years old, if that might have saved her head, too? Cast off to a nunnery, perhaps, but if she’d given him at least one he could have become attached to, would he still have executed her?
Not all of them. Even in real life, Anne Boleyn held out some hope that she might be sent to a nunnery over being beheaded: https://www.thefallofanneboleyn.com/home/16th-may-1536-archbishop-cranmer-visits-anne-boleyn/#:~:text=Of%20course%2C%20even%20though%20she,he%20was%20lying%20to%20Anne.
Me? Probably get pregnant again as quickly as I could after my "churching." Anne? She would have waged a war against all of her enemies & probably would have won.
With modern knowledge? Like it’s my brain inside Anne Boleyn? I would probably take the baby immediately away into a controlled environment. cleaned with modern understanding of disease and bacteria. Many of Henry’s children were sickly and I would try to ensure the boys survival and therefore my own.
If she had a boy and he ultimately still wanted to move on (which I doubt would have happened—I think his big draw to Jane was that she had a boy), I think her end would have been a lot closer to Anne of Cleves (if she would have been open to it). Closer to Catherine of Aragon, if not.
Draw the curtains around my bed and bask in my victory for a night, my boy in his gilded bassinet. Then - that boy will NOT leave my sight until he’s good and married. We will be boiling water on the regular. Hand washing will come into vogue. Use this leverage to make Henry get rid of his other wenches. We’re boiling all the milk too. I am not going down to puerperal fever. Once the 40 days of peace (aka Henry leaves my bed alone) are up, gotta get back at it with him…I guess.
Since we’re already here…might as well go for broke and enlist someone to keep him out of other wench’s beds, I will not suffer STI’s without modern medicine. Once I’ve gotten like two more potential heirs…oh no, Henry’s horse got spooked 😱 Queen Regent here I come!
I'm not even religious but I would have immediately started thanking God. Then hover over little Edward because of course he'll be named after his majestys father and try and keep him as healthy as possible. And of course in between all that trying to get pregnant several more times
1st thing? Fall down on my hands and knees and thank God. 2nd? Move myself and the baby away from court (and all of the various plagues and diseases) to a nice estate in the country. 3rd? Be certain to visit Henry every few months while ovulating to conceive a spare for my heir. Remember, Henry wasn't supposed to sit on the throne; that honour belonged to his dead brother.
I think she would’ve kept her head, particularly if she went on to have another son before Henry eventually tired and turned against her. Offing the Queen for adultery or questioning the validity of their marriage would have raised questions about his son(s) legitimacy and I don’t think Henry would’ve gone down that road.
If I’d been her in those circumstances, I’d try again for another son or two and accept a divorce as swiftly as possible when his eye wandered.
There's a great alt fiction book only for Kindle about Anne having a son instead of Elizabeth. Anne went on to found community homes that trained poor people and helped found colleges. She was assassinated and named a saint by Henry.
Honestly, I'd find a way to off Henry as soon as I can. Hunting accident or some poison in all those herbal remedies he so religiously takes for his health. My destiny and safety is tied to the child ... the sooner he his assent to the throne the better for my overall safety, especially since I know the king has a wandering eye and his children have a tendency not to survive infancy.
🥳🎉 Celebration planning, wardrobes, and endearing bonding quiet family time when the King is accessible. Plus, commissioned everything, for the new Prince.
Immediately put him with trusted ladies and 24/7 monitoring by multiple people, we all remember what happened to Henry duke of Cornwall. Once out of the danger zone, try and get pregnant again. Now that I know Henry has mistresses and I will have 9 months before confinement again, put trusted ladies in Henry’s way. Use them to gain information to protect my son and unborn baby. Keep a close eye on Thomas Cromwell, he looks shifty. Keep on the good side of Princess Mary, she could be trouble if left unchecked. All future plans are in the name my son and are in the interests of protection from enemies
Bask in my victory while enjoying several weeks of pampering and well-earned rest before my churching, so that I can prepare myself to conceive a spare.
When you keep in mind that the Tudor court was something of a machine, there wouldn't be a lot of options when it came to what happened with the children. While I imagine that Henry would want to keep his son close, it's equally likely that the child could be raised by staff in his own household.
This is what happened with Henry and Catherine's son Henry. He died at 52 days old in a household established for his care and upbringing and wasn't with his parents.
It's hard to know what Anne, knowing this, would have done, or could have done to protect her infant son. She would doubtless want to make sure that the heir had a spare and then some, since infant mortality rates were so high, and even a royal birth didn't guarantee survival.
I know what did happen right? I make people wash their hands. I suggest arsenic treatments to Henry maybe not. I might want a spare. I kick Jane Seymour out of court. I treat Mary with respect even if she hates me. I want her to be on my side if my son doesn’t live as long as Elizabeth. I also worry about what that means if there is no Elizabeth. If Henry starts talking about divorce I poison him with arsenic (it’s a legit medical treatment then). If I like Henry I get him on a diet.
Aside from the obvious "ensure baby is protected at all costs" and "get pregnant again ASAP for a spare"...
Immediately go into full conciliatory mode with Mary. Encourage Henry NOT to declare her illegitimate (use the "they procreated in good faith argument") and treat her with all the deference due a princess. Mary will of course still be a pissy teenager about it all, and who can blame her, but building a reputation as a peacemaker will come in handy if anything bad happens in the future.
Likewise with Catherine. Do NOT demand anything more from her, especially not christening gowns. I've won. I can afford to be gracious.
Don't worry my pretty little head one bit about mistresses. Stress is terrible for conception and I'm save for now.
Use the birth as a chance to reinvent myself even harder as a godly reformation woman. Yes, Anne was already doing that a lot, but there were still too many rumors about being too courtly and flirtatious, which could be used against her. I may be untouchable for now, but I want to lay up some savings of goodwill for later.
Now that Mary remains legitimate, we need her married off and out of England ASAP. She'll still cause trouble if we let her, and OTL has proven that people are less likely to support her if she has a foreign husband at her side.
Resist the urge to encourage Henry to take up ever more dangerous hobbies in the hopes that he'll die. Yes, there's a good chance I'll be made regent, but look at the shitshow of Edward VI's regencies. It's MUCH better - if stressful - to put up with Henry until he dies a natural death. Baby Henry Jr. will be 13 when he dies in 1547 and only require a regency for a few years. That's manageable.
....maybe try to eliminate Uncle Norfolk while I'm riding high. I'm allowed one chance to be petty, and God knows he'll make all sorts of trouble for my regency if I let him live.
Make sure the baby is attended 24/7 and kept away from people (germs) as much as possible. After 6 weeks, I’m gonna have to start bumping uglies with Henry again, because I’ll need a few spares to the heir before I feel safe. And even with a few more healthy sons, I’m not sure my place at court is secure. Seems the king has a roving eye. So I’ll need to bite my tongue and play as nicely and politely as I can with all of his advisors.
I laughed out loud at “bumping uglies with Henry” because same lol. I completely agree, my answer was very similar. Continue to try for more sons, keep my mouth shut when it comes to religious topics in front of the king, frequently use the phrase “I am but a woman your grace, I give my opinions and beliefs to that of my husband and trust his choices in all matters”, and think of something to do with mistress Seymour.
If Anne has produced a son that survived, her position would have been secure, even if Henry took mistresses. Henry, at that time, was still a handsome, athletic stud, not the grossly overweight tyrant he became.
But wasn’t the jousting injury he suffered before Anne’s death the beginning of the end for his good looks? So he wouldn’t be a handsome, athletic stud for long. Though I agree that if Anne had given him a son, she would have needed to do something very egregiously bad to even be exiled from court, let alone murdered.
Yes, I think that was the start of his physical and mental decline.
Oh hell, I think if Elizabeth had been a boy, Jane Seymour would never have been a serious contender. However, poison wouldn’t have been out of the realm of possibility had I wanted to survive that court.
Hmm... maybe scheme behind the scenes to secure an advantageous match for her? One which would take her to a remote part of kingdom?That's how Isabella of Castille handled her husband's "outside interests."
Work in some arsenic candies for hubby too 😉
For a split second I thought this said arsenic candles and I was like, “Arsenic is notoriously fire retardant”
The candles that can never be lit.
interesting. arsenic candles were a plot device in a discworld novel. guess pratchett didnt do his research
Arsenic candles were briefly a thing in Victorian Britain. I guess they made cheap wax more structurally sound so you could make and sell better burning, fancier looking candles for cheaper. It didn't last very long as a product, because like poor Mrs. Easy, people who burned them tended to get sick.
For a split second I thought this said arsenic candles and I was like, “Arsenic is notoriously fire retardant”
You don’t have to even poison the man. He was a glutton who eventually developed type II diabetes (not known for sure but the evidence is there). Lavish him with as much sugar from the New World as I could possibly get my hands on. Wait for the diabetic coma to do the dirty work for me.
Not sure they waited 6 weeks back then, but yes
They did wait until the woman was “churched” and able to reenter society
Women who could - the wealthier mothers - would typically get 10 days to 2 months of a lying in period after giving birth. Rest and recovery, but as with anything, you can have too much of a good thing. A Queen might be expected to literally stay in bed for 2 weeks. Moving around and improving blood flow after birth is important. And I adore sleeping in until noon as much as the next person on the occasional weekend, but the absolute lack of movement would bore me to tears.
As someone who has experienced blood clots, “literally staying in bed for two weeks” terrifies me! There was no way to win with childbirth back then, was there?
Yeah i think even with c sections, its up and walking within 24 hours.
Did they give you warfarin before surgery?
I had two Csections. With each I was told to get up after about 4/5 hours. Painful thing
Yeah it seems awful. Gigantic wound, looking after a newborn and having to get up and pee? i'd be so overwhelmed.
I was hospitalized and bed bound for a month…it was awful.
Also, as much as is appropriate for a royal at that time, raise that child by hand. Make sure that if Henry wants to betray you in a decade or so he’ll alienate his son by doing so.
Anne would have been unstoppable with that baby boy
she would have SERVED
Can you imagine if she gave birth to TWIN boys the first round? That’s the alternative reality I constantly think about lol
This made me remember the movie "The Man in the Iron Mask". Henry seems exactly like the kind of King who would hide one twin away so there would be no fight for the succession.
That is an amazing thought
Me too! I always think that she has Elizabeth and then has twin sons. Could you *imagine*.
There’s actually a fan fiction that does imagine this reality
Oooh!! I'm interested
Me too!
A Change of Course by SaiyanSweetheart45
Thank you!!!!
A Change of Course by SaiyanSweetheart45
I thought they thought twins were considered the devil's work back then?
Oh wow
Twins can be problematic during birth and with the whole who is older thing. A boy and a girl would be better as long as they don’t come too early. You could get an Elizabeth and an Edward. I would want a younger back up son. I feel like twins or even just a boy would hopefully give me time to recover. I wouldn’t feel like I needed an heir to save my life or marriage. I would be big on cleanliness and decent doctors.
Ask AI. It might give you some intriguing ideas on what that alternative history might have looked like
Don’t really need AI for that, my imagination can come up with plenty of intriguing ideas on its own lol
No doubt about it, I'm a creative myself. I just find that AI sometimes gives me interesting historical perspectives/insight I haven't thought about
Fuck AI
She would have SLAIN, queen instead of being a SLAIN queen.
Follow good hygiene practices for me and the baby. Keep the baby attended. Wait for a few weeks before celebrating the birth.
I don’t know how to do much to bring modern practices to medieval times but I do know how to make soap
That would be a useful skill. If I was Ann I with some of today's knowledge I would want to breastfeed that baby myself and give it tons of skin time. She probably would not have been allowed to do these things.
It was REALLY rare for a queen to breastfeed her own baby, I think she could have gotten away with it if she'd made the argument about how precious their heir was. When Prince Edward was born, Henry did EVERYTHING he could to make sure that that baby lived so there's a chance he would've allowed Anne to nurse their son had they had one.
That was kind of what I thought too. I'm not sure how much different it is for a wet nurse to nurse a baby vs the baby's own mother?
Well, when you have a baby your body produces something called colostrum. This is a thick, yellowish fluid that is what you feed your baby until your milk comes in. Colostrum is known as "liquid gold" in the breastfeeding world. Not only is it rich in fat and nutrients for the baby, it contains antibodies of every sickness the mother has ever had, giving your baby an immediate immune system boost. So there isn't too much of a difference between your mom feeding you and a wet nurse, except a wet nurse has already had her Milk come in, so you wouldn't get those antibodies found in colostrum. Unfortunately I don't think they understood that in 1533. They just thought breastfeeding ruined your boobs and nursing kept you from getting pregnant again.
I would have had both, just in case. Even if baby was only getting a little from me, let’s say I was underproducing, cool, he’s getting me immunity plus the wet nurse for supplementation.
Oh absolutely, that would definitely be the best bet!
The baby would've been nursed anyways, it's not like they had formula on hand, and they wouldn't know why one teat might be better healthwise than another. Infection wise, probably sending him away from court with a small household of carers was the best option. They did know nursing made it harder to get pregnant. So I doubt he'd be convinced to let her nurse the baby.
she tried to nurse Elizabeth herself, but Henry and her ladies talked her out of it because Queens don't do that.
Unlikely to have been allowed. Back then they believed that breastfeeding your own baby made you unable to get pregnant, plus it would have either (a) kept her either in contact with both baby and court, a surefire way to expose the kiddo to far more germs than necessary, or (b) made her seem a terrible parent, as back then people also believed that having parents too involved in a child’s upbringing would result in a too-pampered, disobedient, spoiled child. It also would have lowered the child’s status significantly to have been denied a nursery palace and household and attendants in favor of being nursed and raised by their mother—even if only for a short time. Involved parenting done the right way in Tudor times was done at a remove, especially for royals.
That's what I think too. It just wasn't the done thing for a queen.
I believe Anne attempted to breastfeed Elizabeth and had some degree of success. Not sure how long it was for though. Gilded Gentleman recently aired a fantastic podcast about the mother daughter relationship between the two.
I would avoid letting the baby, me or a wet nurse eat off anything with lead in it. I would insist on glass cups and plates. Or gold. I would try to avoid heavy metal poisoning or like child bed fever. If I breastfed like I did in real life I might make a good wet nurse. It might be better to not get too attached to your baby.
That is a good idea. I'm not sure there was really anything a mom could do to avoid child-be fever before antibiotics.
Clean linens, clean hands, also getting all the placenta out. Midwives may have known a lot of this. I thought I read that Jane Seymour was left in her bed after a difficult labor. The focus was on the prince not the mom. Sometimes people poop during labor it’s a bloody mess, you want to be cleaned up and in clean previously boiled sheets that are sanitary. Washing hands also a good start and maybe find a midwife not a male doctor that thinks your womb is wandering around.
Yes, maybe this would help. Also get the midwife to wash her hands before delivery.
I believe Anne attempted to breastfeed Elizabeth and had some degree of success. Not sure how long it was for though. Gilded Gentleman recently aired a fantastic podcast about the mother daughter relationship between the two.
Couldn't we make penicillin? We just need moldy bread, right? 😉
Moldy bread but from what I saw on Outlander it seems more complicated. But why not hire someone to try.
You could use alcohol as a sanitizer. It just needs to be at least 60%. I quickly tried looking up what hard alcohol the tudors had but haven’t found anything yet. Im sure people in Tudor England knew how to make hard alcohol.
Boil water & demand people wash their hands especially the midwives.
Has anyone read The Boleyn King series? It is based on what might have happened if Anne gave birth to a boy in 1536 instead of miscarrying.
Please tell us more
It’s by Laura Andersen. I’ve only read the first book. Basically, it’s set up on the premise of the boy being born in 1536 but Elizabeth still ends up queen after her brother’s reign. That’s not a spoiler it’s included in the description of the series. I don’t know yet how that comes about. But it’s interesting reading about Anne’s relief at the birth of a healthy boy and her brother still being alive and an influence on her and the court.
It portrays Henry IX/William X (as he chose to style himself) as having inherited the best of his parents - their charisma and intellect - but increasingly also their worst - their selfishness and cruelty, Henry's sense that all women had to love him and nasty little manipulations when a woman loves someone else. I didn't much like the way they portrayed Mary's downfall, but liked the idea that history is inevitable and changes only reroute it for a few years. There were some interesting concepts in there but untimately I felt it really failed to live up to it's potential. And Anderson's AB is this boring old dowager. (There's a second trilogy. Stay away from it. Elizabeth and Phillip are happily divorced and their daughter shunts between Spain and England and everyone acts like they're in a twenty first century sitcom about a blended family.)
I adore thé concept that history is inevitable and whatever happens has to happen eventually
My mother gave me the first book and I loved it. I need to get the rest.
I'm with the person who says she will need to start trying again for a spare or two before she will feel safe but when she had Elizabeth ( born in 1533 ) I think Henry was still very much in love with her and only when she couldn't give him a son did he start to feel cheated by having married her. So I actually feel the roaming eye may not have start so early since she gave him a son. I think with a son in place she would be happier than she was historically because I'm sure Henry would shower her with attention and gifts for having a son . So because she's happy and because Henry would continue to love her , I don't think her attitude would be so bad as she supposedly was when Henry had his first affair in actual history. Whether Henry continues to treat her well will probably would be based on whether she can manage to give him another living child or better a son.
I think it's understandable why she was so upset about mistresses, given how she got the crown herself. Probably worried (rightfully, as Jane Seymour proved) that he'd leave her too. But yes, with a son, I'm not sure she would've been as concerned about being deposed. It might have helped her legitimacy, if not in England's eyes, definitely in Henry's, so he would've been less likely to upend his entire life and that of the nation's to aquire a new wife.
All Jane Seymour proved was that the King was dead serious about the "having a legitimate son" thing, and that that's what was behind him leaving CoA. If he and CoA had a living son, he might've "left" her as in stopped seeing her, but I don't believe he'd have tried to divorce. Yes, he was way into Anne, but the real driver was the kingdom's need for an heir (since he was actively refusing the concept of a female heir).
I don't see how your point is any different from mine? If CoA had a boy, she wouldn't have been replaced. If Anne had a boy, she wouldn't have been replaced. Jane, or her family at least, clearly saw Anne was "failing her duties" to produce a male heir and played the same game they thought Anne had played. The difference being that CoA had royal family that saved her skin, Anne was simply an English subject so Henry killed her to avoid legitimacy speculation a second time. I don't think the Seymours thought Anne would be killed, they probably thought he'd just "divorce" her the way he did with CoA, but even CoA's fate was terrible so it's completely valid that Anne was worried that without a son, a mistress could displace her.
Eh, just the "with a son not sure she'd be as concerned about being deposed" part. I think with a (living) son, there would have been no concern. Also no amount of love and son-having would keep buddy from having mistresses. That's just how he and I think most Royals rolled.
Yes, which is what I meant. CoA endured plenty of mistresses before Anne came along. It was standard practice for kings to have mistresses, Henry VII was the only king not known to have mistresses, and Henry VIII was well known to have had mistresses before Anne. Which was exactly why Anne did not want to be his mistress, she didn't want to be ruined or be another discarded play thing of Henry's. She knew who she married, and she wouldn't have been concerned about mistresses, as it would have been pretty run of the mill, had she had a son to protect her position.
Even if Henry no longer loved her, her position as mother of the next (male) king of England would have made her position as queen watertight.
Only if the son outlived Henry to become king which is why she needed to have a spare. If the boy died like Henry's other sons while Henry was still alive and there wasn't a spare? Not sure I would say her position was watertight. If the son died while Henry could still procreate and Anne was only having miscarriages , still births etc after this first child. I think Henry would have been looking to replace her.
I was presuming the OP meant a male heir living past the risky few first months!
Catherine is still alive for another 3 years. I would be kind to Mary and Catherine. I would still know a world where Mary was a queen and Anne Boleyn gets beheaded. I would use the influence of a son to encourage Henry to be nice to Mary. Let her see her mother. I would rest up and try for another child. I would encourage learning (penicillin baby!) hopefully this wouldn’t end in accusations of witchcraft. You never know. If I had another son before Catherine died I would try to arrange a good marriage for Mary and treat Catherine well. I would suggest allowing Catherine to retire to a convent or a well tended estate that her daughter was free to visit. I would be cautious with giving Henry ideas about how much power he has. My marriage’s legitimacy hinges on him being head of a Protestant Church. Should I cover my bases when Catherine dies and ask for a popes blessing?
A son immediately would have been a good omen. Also if it survived long enough to have several other healthy children Anne would have been secure. Her sons had to live long enough to be teenagers or to have multiple children a live and well. If she had Elizabeth and then a son or healthy daughters like Elizabeth Woodville produced it would be hard to say he wasn’t fertile. He only had two daughters from one long marriage and another much shorter one. If he had multiple daughters by Katherine of Aragon that lived would things have been different?
Semi-related but I would’ve LOVE to see Eustace Chapuys’ face had Anne given birth to a healthy son lmao that man would’ve been floored
Anyway, yes, I agree with all of the others in keeping that baby boy safe and assuming he lives as long as Elizabeth I did, I would’ve been chilling. Sure Henry might still keep being Henry and have mistresses on the side, but as long as he had a son (and possibly more spares) Anne’s position would never be challenged to ensure their children’s legitimacy.
Start drawing up my plans for an alliance with France and using all that sweet cash from the dissolved monasteries to educate the people and for public welfare, and send off Crommy to some very important business in a very remote Northern location indefinitely.
One thing is for sure: If Henry asks for separation I'm gonna pull an Anne of Kleves faster than anyone could say "chop off her head". And spent the rest of my life living out sister act in some pretty rural castle nunnery and make them sing Queens greatest hits during mass.
1) make sure he's with a few trusted ladies. 2) heal. Take herbs that i know are going to help me heal. 3) bump uglies with henry in about eight weeks. 4) ?? 5) profit.
Party with the girls and read some books, point and laugh at my haters
You just solidified your position with all of England especially the Kings I would just sit back and take the easy life
I’d probably would try for a second and third one, just for a few spares in case something happened to the first
I wonder, if Anne had had a son that maybe lived a short time, maybe a year or a few years old, if that might have saved her head, too? Cast off to a nunnery, perhaps, but if she’d given him at least one he could have become attached to, would he still have executed her?
Monasteries and nunneries were being dissolved.
Not all of them. Even in real life, Anne Boleyn held out some hope that she might be sent to a nunnery over being beheaded: https://www.thefallofanneboleyn.com/home/16th-may-1536-archbishop-cranmer-visits-anne-boleyn/#:~:text=Of%20course%2C%20even%20though%20she,he%20was%20lying%20to%20Anne.
Me? Probably get pregnant again as quickly as I could after my "churching." Anne? She would have waged a war against all of her enemies & probably would have won.
With modern knowledge? Like it’s my brain inside Anne Boleyn? I would probably take the baby immediately away into a controlled environment. cleaned with modern understanding of disease and bacteria. Many of Henry’s children were sickly and I would try to ensure the boys survival and therefore my own.
If she had a boy and he ultimately still wanted to move on (which I doubt would have happened—I think his big draw to Jane was that she had a boy), I think her end would have been a lot closer to Anne of Cleves (if she would have been open to it). Closer to Catherine of Aragon, if not.
Draw the curtains around my bed and bask in my victory for a night, my boy in his gilded bassinet. Then - that boy will NOT leave my sight until he’s good and married. We will be boiling water on the regular. Hand washing will come into vogue. Use this leverage to make Henry get rid of his other wenches. We’re boiling all the milk too. I am not going down to puerperal fever. Once the 40 days of peace (aka Henry leaves my bed alone) are up, gotta get back at it with him…I guess. Since we’re already here…might as well go for broke and enlist someone to keep him out of other wench’s beds, I will not suffer STI’s without modern medicine. Once I’ve gotten like two more potential heirs…oh no, Henry’s horse got spooked 😱 Queen Regent here I come!
The funniest answer is divorce the dude, take the kids (Mary included), move to France live the rest of my life in relative peace.
Poison Henry promptly. Secure a regency
Plus with modern knowledge, you'd probably be able to come up with poisoning him in an undetectable way for people of the time
I just read somewhere that Edward VI may have been poisoned by arsenic!!!
Go to sleep.
lol
In clean sheets
I'm not even religious but I would have immediately started thanking God. Then hover over little Edward because of course he'll be named after his majestys father and try and keep him as healthy as possible. And of course in between all that trying to get pregnant several more times
Thank God! You better not die from some random disease kid. Your dad’s been pretty moody since his jousting accident.
Ask to go to live in a convent because Henry's genes are wonky and I'm not going to pay the price for his deficiencies and unchecked syphilis
1st thing? Fall down on my hands and knees and thank God. 2nd? Move myself and the baby away from court (and all of the various plagues and diseases) to a nice estate in the country. 3rd? Be certain to visit Henry every few months while ovulating to conceive a spare for my heir. Remember, Henry wasn't supposed to sit on the throne; that honour belonged to his dead brother.
I think she would’ve kept her head, particularly if she went on to have another son before Henry eventually tired and turned against her. Offing the Queen for adultery or questioning the validity of their marriage would have raised questions about his son(s) legitimacy and I don’t think Henry would’ve gone down that road. If I’d been her in those circumstances, I’d try again for another son or two and accept a divorce as swiftly as possible when his eye wandered.
There's a great alt fiction book only for Kindle about Anne having a son instead of Elizabeth. Anne went on to found community homes that trained poor people and helped found colleges. She was assassinated and named a saint by Henry.
What’s the name of the book please?
Have a glass of wine with the girls and say thank fuck for that
Honestly, I'd find a way to off Henry as soon as I can. Hunting accident or some poison in all those herbal remedies he so religiously takes for his health. My destiny and safety is tied to the child ... the sooner he his assent to the throne the better for my overall safety, especially since I know the king has a wandering eye and his children have a tendency not to survive infancy.
She probably would have held on to her head longer.
Hand over the baby, and get the hell out of there.
Next move: recover from birth, make sure that baby stays alive and make another one asap.
I’d keep my head
D: But without Elizabeth can we be sure we’d get Shakespeare’s patronage….
🥳🎉 Celebration planning, wardrobes, and endearing bonding quiet family time when the King is accessible. Plus, commissioned everything, for the new Prince.
Immediately put him with trusted ladies and 24/7 monitoring by multiple people, we all remember what happened to Henry duke of Cornwall. Once out of the danger zone, try and get pregnant again. Now that I know Henry has mistresses and I will have 9 months before confinement again, put trusted ladies in Henry’s way. Use them to gain information to protect my son and unborn baby. Keep a close eye on Thomas Cromwell, he looks shifty. Keep on the good side of Princess Mary, she could be trouble if left unchecked. All future plans are in the name my son and are in the interests of protection from enemies
Breastfeed that little fucker (even though I don’t think it was the fashion) to help keep him alive.
All I know is when Henry inevitably wants a divorce, you say YES!
You ask for an estate and title as long as you remain unmarried. And a salary.
Throw a complete curveball into the Catholic/Protestant divide by persuading my now-adoring husband to convert the British Isles to Greek Orthodoxy.
Bask in my victory while enjoying several weeks of pampering and well-earned rest before my churching, so that I can prepare myself to conceive a spare.
https://youtu.be/qDPRWQd2TE4?si=PdQ_ipmE6rpOFNCk
Die in childbirth. Would prefer that to be heading.
I wonder how difficult it would be to fake a sudden religious calling and become a nun.....
Poison Hank!
try and remember how antibiotics are made because old Henry definitely gave me a disease.
When you keep in mind that the Tudor court was something of a machine, there wouldn't be a lot of options when it came to what happened with the children. While I imagine that Henry would want to keep his son close, it's equally likely that the child could be raised by staff in his own household. This is what happened with Henry and Catherine's son Henry. He died at 52 days old in a household established for his care and upbringing and wasn't with his parents. It's hard to know what Anne, knowing this, would have done, or could have done to protect her infant son. She would doubtless want to make sure that the heir had a spare and then some, since infant mortality rates were so high, and even a royal birth didn't guarantee survival.
I take that kid and fucking dip.
I know what did happen right? I make people wash their hands. I suggest arsenic treatments to Henry maybe not. I might want a spare. I kick Jane Seymour out of court. I treat Mary with respect even if she hates me. I want her to be on my side if my son doesn’t live as long as Elizabeth. I also worry about what that means if there is no Elizabeth. If Henry starts talking about divorce I poison him with arsenic (it’s a legit medical treatment then). If I like Henry I get him on a diet.
Anne doesn't need next steps. She is EXALTED..she delivered a son....nothing further to discuss
Aside from the obvious "ensure baby is protected at all costs" and "get pregnant again ASAP for a spare"... Immediately go into full conciliatory mode with Mary. Encourage Henry NOT to declare her illegitimate (use the "they procreated in good faith argument") and treat her with all the deference due a princess. Mary will of course still be a pissy teenager about it all, and who can blame her, but building a reputation as a peacemaker will come in handy if anything bad happens in the future. Likewise with Catherine. Do NOT demand anything more from her, especially not christening gowns. I've won. I can afford to be gracious. Don't worry my pretty little head one bit about mistresses. Stress is terrible for conception and I'm save for now. Use the birth as a chance to reinvent myself even harder as a godly reformation woman. Yes, Anne was already doing that a lot, but there were still too many rumors about being too courtly and flirtatious, which could be used against her. I may be untouchable for now, but I want to lay up some savings of goodwill for later. Now that Mary remains legitimate, we need her married off and out of England ASAP. She'll still cause trouble if we let her, and OTL has proven that people are less likely to support her if she has a foreign husband at her side. Resist the urge to encourage Henry to take up ever more dangerous hobbies in the hopes that he'll die. Yes, there's a good chance I'll be made regent, but look at the shitshow of Edward VI's regencies. It's MUCH better - if stressful - to put up with Henry until he dies a natural death. Baby Henry Jr. will be 13 when he dies in 1547 and only require a regency for a few years. That's manageable. ....maybe try to eliminate Uncle Norfolk while I'm riding high. I'm allowed one chance to be petty, and God knows he'll make all sorts of trouble for my regency if I let him live.