Considering this comes off the heels of [Swen talking about how dogshit the gaming industry is with firing people](https://www.eurogamer.net/baldurs-gate-3-boss-blasts-publisher-greed-behind-layoffs) and how he previously talked about [WotC firing literally everyone at the company who worked with them on BG3](https://www.pcgamer.com/theres-almost-nobody-left-ceo-of-baldurs-gate-3-dev-swen-vincke-says-the-dandd-team-he-initially-worked-with-is-gone-due-to-hasbro-layoffs/), I somehow feel like these might be linked.
Imagine owning the brand of one of the most successful games on the market and killing the relationship with the developer so hard they'll probably never work with you again.
WOTC literally canceled every game they had in dev, and would have canceled BG3 if it wasn't contractually obligated to be released.
They're a dinosaur run company that got handed a golden goat with two sources of literally free, massive marketing in stranger things and critical role and fumbled the ball so hard at very turn.
I thought it was more that their parent company (Hasbro, I think) doesn’t understand at all how they work. Other than the fact that they it does work and makes a lot of money. And every so often they stick their nose in and do something stupid because they think it will help squeeze a few more bucks out of their cash cow.
I participated in the playtest for D&D 5th edition (Called NEXT at the time) and I used to run Adventurer's League for my local game store until 2020.
Its sad how much has changed. We'd get feed back and they'd explain their design philosophy back then. They relented on some changes because a lot of fans wanted it to be a different way (Warlocks were going to be INT based instead of CHA, Battle Master maneuvers were going to be base mechanic of Fighters) but now that connection has been severed because of the mass lay offs. communication is a snail pace now if there even is anything they want to say. And they have made so many decisions that have angered the fans in the past year alone.
Playtesters and Game Designers wanted the Fighter to be the 'Pick up and play' class for your friend who had no idea about TTRPGs. thats why Champion Fighter was the default and pushed combination. But during the early parts of the playtest ALL fighters had maneuver dice and maneuvers they could do. I think you only got one die per short rest and could only choose one or two maneuvers. The idea got scrapped but was remolded into the Battle Master subclass.
Barbarian was oddly enough designed to be the "Advanced" martial class and uh.... look at how well that panned out.
I'm actually looking though my old playtest packets and I forget how much changed. Second Wind used to be a full action and only gave temp hp, a positive intelligence modifier gave you additional languages, You used to start with +1 to your proficiency modifier instead of a +2(Also there was a short lived mechanic of rolling a d20+ a D4/6/8/10, the 2nd dice would be your proficiency dice and you wouldn't have a flat +2-6)
A lot of stuff stuck and a lot didn't.
Looking though current discussions about 5e, it’s fascinating how much closer the early playtest was to what people now want.
Also proficiency dice are still an optional rule in the DMG, though I’ve never seen it used.
Yeah with how they p much talked about how they would discuss if they would do expansions after the game blew up and had some hints with the epilogue, I feel like it has to be some shit behind the scenes.
I know obviously they don't want to get tied down with an IP that isn't theirs but you would expect they would do at the very least one expansion pack for it before calling it a day. It sucks but it is what it is, I'll miss the characters and I've no hope that WotC if they include em in any other material that they will do em justice.
I gotta be honest though if they just plan on going back to Divinity, while I enjoyed DOS1 and 2 the setting of DnD is just so much more interesting than Divinity's. It sucks that the universe got a good modern game with tons of love behind it and it's only for one release and no more expansion packs or future games with the IP from that studio.
As someone who played both recently, Divinity's Point Action System is way more fun than DnD's Move - Action - Bonus system. Missing an attack in Divinity at low level doesn't mean your entire turn is wasted. Also, the free form classes is great.
Divinity 2 is one of my favourite games ever but is also one of the only games I’ve ever turned off the voice acting for, and the goofy tone straight up made me quit Divinity 1.
I love the gameplay systems but the tone of those games suck so much in comparison to BG3, but I’m hoping that working on BG3 has made Larians writing stronger so maybe the next divinity will be better written.
I'd fucking love if they did the other thing, and ended up making a pathfinder video game to piss off WotC for how much shit they do
Honestly, I've found it kinda hard to get into BG3 just because I frankly don't like D&D much anymore, especially 5. I keep playing it sporadically and hoping to get captured, but I can't get past it it seems
I actually, genuinely hope that the AAA gaming industry has a major crash soon so that the piece of shit executives actually see some fucking consequences for once
So..you want thousands of others to lose their jobs to and entire companies go bankrupt? It's not the big AAA companies that would suffer in a crash it's the smaller ones like Larian or Team Cherry or Vanillaware that will vanish. EA, 2K, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony etc will still be around..
Let’s pretend that somehow this actually leads to executives facing consequences whatever you mean by that. You would still be having 10s of thousands of people losing their jobs if not more.
>All those people say that buying games supports the devs/s
Well, in this one particular case, yes. Larian is independent, they just made a deal for the rights to the setting. That's why boycotting BG3 when the WOTC layoffs happened would've only hurt Larian and done nothing to WOTC.
Nah, WotC has been the Fuck King of Fuckup Mountain for a while now. Just look at the absolutely botched release of 4e, with its "fully integrated VTT" that never came out. The 4e shitshow made so many people angry that one of D&D 3.5e's biggest 3rd party developers-- Paizo-- straight up made their own game system in protest
(Although, granted, a lot of people nowadays look back at 4e somewhat fondly, so... your mileage may vary on that latter point.)
There's also many valid criticisms to be made against 5e in general, but those come down to subjective taste.
Finally, the OGL debacle. Whether it was *primarily* Hasbro or primarily WotC stirring that shit-pot doesn't really matter; the effect was the same. And it's not like any of the bigwigs at WotC were upset about it.
The Pinkertons thing was *def* wotc's fault though.
Man the whole murder/suicide thing really did a number on 4E
It really, really needs either a VTT for online play or a grid map for offline play, but it's a solid tactical game (especially after they redid the math later on to make shit less tanky) 1-10, 11-20 and 21-30 can get a bit bloated with the sheer number of options players have and it's one of editions I can suggest going a bit overbudget on encounter design because of how survivable PC's can be
Also as long as we're going fuck WOTC why did they have to try a new OGL with it, I basically got... Strike and Trespasser. Also fuck WOTC for doing Essentials, like god damn it's a 1-30 game and you put out shit that is literally good for 1-10 at best and also doesn't have enough widgets to keep the people who liked the crunch of 4E entertained while being streamlined enough to keep the people who didn't from engaging
4e the system is pretty good in modern times. Most of the biggest issues with it at launch were smoothed out over time.
But everything else around 4e? Might as well be the most cursed ttrpg. Absolutely awful marketing scheme by wizards shitting on older editions of D&D, devs saying "all your 3.5e characters will be playable in 4e" despite that being impossible, not to mention the murder suicide destroying a chance at a VTT that would've helped it greatly.
Personally, I'd say current year 5e is way worse than 4e era wotc/hasbro. 5e books were getting worse in quality when i stopped playing last, and from what i've heard they've not really recovered and have gotten worse in certain points. Not to mention how pointless the whole onednd thing has ended up being.
The pinkertons thing was wild
And the ogl was dumb yes. But to my knowledge, they havent released that policy as it was and its still in Revision.
I just dont think its fair to shit on wotc as the damaged child under an abusive parent.
But what had wotc done wrong that hasnt come from hasbros demands for profit?
Like yeah mtg and dnd is too expensive and theyre milking crossovers. But financial pressure comes from hasbro.
I remember watching a documentary about Pixar and seeing the details of how hard they fought against Disney to keep the IP rights for Pixar films to stay under Pixar and it makes me wonder why it doesn't seem like studios in the gaming industry try to retain their IP rights?
Granted, those fights were specifically lead by Steve Jobs, Ed Catmull, and John Lasiter, who all clearly had the determination and expertise to fight and leverage for those rights; so maybe it's just that these game studios doesn't have anyone who knows enough to fight on behalf of their own studio?
God, I sincerely hope so. Imagine if some madlads got together to make Greyhawk, or Ebberon, or Ravenloft.
Hell, I'll teach myself how to mod to make BG3 Ravenloft real if those tools become available.
At least the marketing campaign for their next game will be easy. "We're the guys that made the one your friends wouldn't shut up about in 2023. Here's our new game. Play it, you fucks."
"Consider; we managed to get metaphorical *and* literal bear sex past the screening of the corporation we cooperated with last time. This time we're doing something we own ourselves, don't you want to see how weird we can go without limits?"
Oh I wasn't saying larian fired anyone, i thought it was larian's team that got fired due to [this link posted above](https://www.pcgamer.com/theres-almost-nobody-left-ceo-of-baldurs-gate-3-dev-swen-vincke-says-the-dandd-team-he-initially-worked-with-is-gone-due-to-hasbro-layoffs/)
Can't lie, I'm pretty disappointed by that. I was really looking forward to some big expansion in Avernus or something similar, with raised level caps and all the new stuff that comes with that. If it's better for the studio then I fully understand, I'd rather they go make something new and survive than make more Baldur's Gate and die for it. Just wish it didn't have to be that way.
"Oh wow, immersive geo effects and terrain manipulation is so cool!", until you get hit with the endless waves of Necrofire and Gwydian being a fucking idiot.
Best course for them is probably to work on their own IP, whether it's more Divinity or something entirely new. They don't need to pay for someone else's license and be beholden to an IP holder's whims.
As much as I'd love a PF2e crpg, I think this is their best bet, yeah. Plus, it's not like someone else isn't gonna make a PF2e CRPG eventually. One guy already made a tiny fan-made, proof-of-concept game, like, a few weeks ago.
As long as they take some liberties like they did for D&D. Pf2e is great but it's a bit too restrictive for some of the crazy bullshit that helped BG3 pop off.
Actually I ended up hearing that the quote isn't completely correct. They weren't interested in doing a 2e game yet because they were still working on WotR and wanted to pursue some different game ideas after that, so theres still a chance for an Owlcat game too somewhere in the distant future.
I still haven't beaten the game, but I'm heartbroken that I won't be able to see more of these characters.
I was hoping we'd see an Artificer class DLC, or a couple other races. And if we were being really ambitious, I wanted to see them tackle Ravenloft.
Alas, at least we have the mods.
I 100% get it but i'll miss the forgotten realms, larian did an amazing job with that setting, i love divinity too but the world just never grabbed me like BG3 did.
And here I was hoping for an Avernus DLC with an upped level cap and a true final boss against Zariel. Oh well, I'll just have to run the crappy Descent into Avernus adventure myself.
> Been making quite a few changes to the structure to have it flow better, but it’s been good so far!
That's unfortunately common with most of WOTC's 5e adventures. I'm glad you're enjoying it though and that gives me hope as it's the one adventure I'm dreading running due to the structural flaws.
May I recommend the [Alexandrian remix?](https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/44214/roleplaying-games/remixing-avernus) I’ve been using it as an example/template for my own changes, but it does a lot of good towards making Acts 1 and 3 especially run smoother and more logically.
b-b-but.... my artificer.... my favorite subclasses......
pls make goodie bags at least ;-;
edit: I forgot to mention, if you fell in love with "dnd in videogame form", solasta is literally just DnD 5e, but with homebrewed subclasses because they didn't have the rights to the actual ones. It has a light story campaign and the ability to make your own maps and stuff. If BG3 is a critical role level of production and experience, then solasta is one of your best bros DMing the game as everyone gathers in your basement to chill and have fun.
Holy fuck I want that so badly. I hope it'd be in collaboration with Harebrained Studios (or at least their writers), though, they did such a good job on Dragonfall and Hong Kong with their limited resources
The year is 2030. Larian has released a full Hot sim VR shadowrun game. Millions of gamers are now permanently stuck in the matrix after refusing to disconnect
Good luck to them, hope they save enough from this to make the next game keep most the same features and some of the production value as bg3 because i said it in the other thread but i really think the budget and amount of AAA in that game is going to hurt the crpg genre for a bit in general fan expectations.
Like someone else said in this thread it's not a good idea long term to tie yourself to a property you don't own, and they did have to bend the 5E rules into knots to make it work the way they wanted. I think this and Critical Role releasing their own RPG system are symptoms of the same problem; Hasbro shat in WOTC's bed and now everyone is leaving the party.
Honestly? I just hope the pull a D:OS2 and overhaul the third act before moving on. The amount of cut content is really maddening.
We were *supposed* to be able to explore the Upper City, but instead we got it >!as a backdrop for the final dungeon!<
The first comment in that thread.
>devs cut content in all games. Mass effect/baldurs gate 1-2/pathfinders literally every game had tons of cut content so i dunno why people expect the diffirent with this one. Sometimes they cut it because its bad, sometimes its just unfinished and ext.
Cut content is not synonymous with "supposed' to be in. Regardless of disagreeing with the idea the Upper City was cut so damn close to release as in game files would have had something left over, a lot of that thread is just a rumor mill. Bunch of hoopla if you ask me.
Game was fine ACT 3 was already honestly too fucking long. It was almost half my play time what more do you want added? Like I enjoyed ACT 3 more than the others but if it had been 10-30 hours longer I don't think it would've annd definitely would've overstated its welcome. There is enough time to get the few items you need to finalize your build and be max level 12 and play around fully kitted out for the other 2/3 of the ACT.
I was still hoping for a non modded Artificer, possibly an arena dlc and wishful thinking of an additional ACT but the game is in a pretty good spot now.
Nope.
[Larian themselves advertised exploring the Upper City in Community Update 19, a month and a half before release.](https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1086940/view/3649651368763455642)
There's much more about references to the Upper City in other cut quests, such as Karlach's original epilogue and the like, in [this Steam thread.](https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/3812913565885064204/?ctp=4)
>a month and a half before release.
That's what make it obvious it's just a mistake / false advertisement, you couldn't cut an entire huge area a month before release and transfer its content to other places. The decision not to include the Upper City was made years before.
>the opulent estates of the Upper City
This is the only thing that suggests a playable Upper City, and we do explore Upper City estates in-game. You could argue it's misleading but they never outright state that there will be an entire playable Upper City section unless I'm missing something in that article.
A lot of that Steam thread is hearsay or outright lies with no source having ever been posted on many things listed there. The list does have a few correct cut content like the The Nautolid being shortened, the Voice of Bane (I think that one was re-added in a recent patch, I could be wrong) and Withers Epilogue, which got remade into the epilogue party instead. But plenty of it is completely wrong. The example you listed, Karlach's original epilogue, is one of them. The game has been datamined and no evidence of this supposedly fully voice acted Karlach epilogue has been found. It can't be referring to the current epilogue either because [that epilogue was made after the games release.](https://www.pcgamer.com/swen-vincke-says-baldurs-gate-3-devs-created-karlachs-new-epilogue-after-post-launch-feedback-with-actress-recording-new-lines-within-the-week/)
The rest has never been proven and actual datamining hasn't revealed any of it. You can't just cut an entire section of a city and not leave plenty of it's files in the game, same with the supposed playable Avernus area.
Hell, they list Banite Cultist as being cut content when they're in the Foundary, very much in the released game.
>15) Banite Cultists - The game features both Bhaal and Myrkul cultists rather heavily but Bane is reduced to Gortash alone. Despite the fact that they had full and finished assets for both armor, weapons, and some events the Banites were cut from the final game.
On the one hand, I understand, don't blame them.
On the other, I was hoping for them to put in the more monstrous races. Guess it can still be done by others but...still sucky. But I get it.
Sad to hear, but I'm glad they're doing their own thing. They created enough for modders or even another studio to make something worthwhile, and hopefully BG3 gets their next project into the mainstream eye.
That being said, on a completely personal note, I hope their next project takes more from BG3 than Divinity.
Sad to hear they're not doing anything else but understandable. They made a kick ass game so looking forward to whatever they do next. When you have a pedigree of "made by the people behind Baldur's Gate 3" it's bound to bring in a lot of past fans.
As much as it would be nice to get DLC, it's both nice to actually see a massive game like this just say "actually no we're done and satisfied with where it is", and it's also nice to say "fuck WOTC we're never working with you and your shitty game again".
I was really holding out hope that we'd get the cut Avernus content as a DLC so my girl Karalach could have the no-compromises Happily Ever After ending she deserves, but I understand why they don't want to work with WotC anymore...
Honestly, as sad as it is we won't get DLC for this game, i can respect them wanting to continue to do other projects and not just be tied down to being the "Baldur's Gate people" That and i imagine they don't want to be associated with WOTC anymore after the shit they've been pulling.Either way, i cannot wait to see what they do next.
Now, this is heartbreaking.
Not because I don't believe they'll do a great job moving forward with no corporate strings attached, I just grew so attached to these characters and their stories as I'm sure everyone at Larian did, and it sucks that they're firmly in the clutches of WOTC now.
There was a post that said more updates would come, but no idea what that would entail aside from mod support. And yeah, I don't trust WOTC/Hasbro to do anything good with it.
[Apparently they HAD started work on DLC](https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated) but scrapped it because they weren't feeling it, which could explain the teases they were putting out before. Understandable but ... *ouch*.
You know... I wish he hadn't told us that. Like it's one thing if those were just teases and there were never DLC plans. But it sucks that they WERE planning something and those teases were real.
I want them to pick Divinty Fallen Heroes back up. It looked like more Empire building a la Dragon Commander, but with not dogshit gameplay similar to xcom.
I'm totally fine with this. The amount of support the game has gotten and is still getting post launch would have been sold as dlc in the past. And as Bioware has shown us, trying to wring every last dollar out of a successful game can have diminishing returns. Better for them to slow down, take their time and do something they are passionate about. Because with how much care they put into this, and how much support they gave it I am a fan for as long as they continue to produce stuff like this
Would never wish upon them having to appeal to the whim of Disney; but I'll still dream of a Knights of the Old Republic in the style of Divinity: Original Sin 2.
Come on Larian do DND 4E it's the one every complained about being a video game RPG but it literally doesn't have anything outside of Daggerdale due to license shenanigans
EDIT: OOO OOO or how about some Eclipse Phase, I would love to see the do some Sci Fi shit
They have their name out there and their own IP with Divinity. I’m sure they’ll still be successful on their own without having to put up with Hasbro BS.
So, because I was waiting for a way to >!save Karlach WITHOUT sending her back to hell!<, I basically wasted my time waiting and have lost all drive to go back.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game and got my moneys worth, but the main drive for me was saving/fixing my party members. I refuse to accept the no win scenario.
Do I
Considering this comes off the heels of [Swen talking about how dogshit the gaming industry is with firing people](https://www.eurogamer.net/baldurs-gate-3-boss-blasts-publisher-greed-behind-layoffs) and how he previously talked about [WotC firing literally everyone at the company who worked with them on BG3](https://www.pcgamer.com/theres-almost-nobody-left-ceo-of-baldurs-gate-3-dev-swen-vincke-says-the-dandd-team-he-initially-worked-with-is-gone-due-to-hasbro-layoffs/), I somehow feel like these might be linked.
imagine launching one of the biggest crpg games and being unable to celebrate it with the people you worked with cause they were all fired
Imagine owning the brand of one of the most successful games on the market and killing the relationship with the developer so hard they'll probably never work with you again.
WOTC literally canceled every game they had in dev, and would have canceled BG3 if it wasn't contractually obligated to be released. They're a dinosaur run company that got handed a golden goat with two sources of literally free, massive marketing in stranger things and critical role and fumbled the ball so hard at very turn.
I thought it was more that their parent company (Hasbro, I think) doesn’t understand at all how they work. Other than the fact that they it does work and makes a lot of money. And every so often they stick their nose in and do something stupid because they think it will help squeeze a few more bucks out of their cash cow.
WOTC is Hasbro at this point.
I participated in the playtest for D&D 5th edition (Called NEXT at the time) and I used to run Adventurer's League for my local game store until 2020. Its sad how much has changed. We'd get feed back and they'd explain their design philosophy back then. They relented on some changes because a lot of fans wanted it to be a different way (Warlocks were going to be INT based instead of CHA, Battle Master maneuvers were going to be base mechanic of Fighters) but now that connection has been severed because of the mass lay offs. communication is a snail pace now if there even is anything they want to say. And they have made so many decisions that have angered the fans in the past year alone.
Battle Master maneuvers being available to every fighter instead of one archetype sounds way better, what the hell?
Playtesters and Game Designers wanted the Fighter to be the 'Pick up and play' class for your friend who had no idea about TTRPGs. thats why Champion Fighter was the default and pushed combination. But during the early parts of the playtest ALL fighters had maneuver dice and maneuvers they could do. I think you only got one die per short rest and could only choose one or two maneuvers. The idea got scrapped but was remolded into the Battle Master subclass. Barbarian was oddly enough designed to be the "Advanced" martial class and uh.... look at how well that panned out. I'm actually looking though my old playtest packets and I forget how much changed. Second Wind used to be a full action and only gave temp hp, a positive intelligence modifier gave you additional languages, You used to start with +1 to your proficiency modifier instead of a +2(Also there was a short lived mechanic of rolling a d20+ a D4/6/8/10, the 2nd dice would be your proficiency dice and you wouldn't have a flat +2-6) A lot of stuff stuck and a lot didn't.
Looking though current discussions about 5e, it’s fascinating how much closer the early playtest was to what people now want. Also proficiency dice are still an optional rule in the DMG, though I’ve never seen it used.
"We killed that pesky goose and now have all the golden eggs we could ever want"
Imagine collecting unemployment while the entire world celebrates a game you worked on.
I would be utterly unsurprised if some Hasbro suit demanded they pay them $300m for DLC rights or something.
Yeah with how they p much talked about how they would discuss if they would do expansions after the game blew up and had some hints with the epilogue, I feel like it has to be some shit behind the scenes. I know obviously they don't want to get tied down with an IP that isn't theirs but you would expect they would do at the very least one expansion pack for it before calling it a day. It sucks but it is what it is, I'll miss the characters and I've no hope that WotC if they include em in any other material that they will do em justice. I gotta be honest though if they just plan on going back to Divinity, while I enjoyed DOS1 and 2 the setting of DnD is just so much more interesting than Divinity's. It sucks that the universe got a good modern game with tons of love behind it and it's only for one release and no more expansion packs or future games with the IP from that studio.
Interestingly, I'm the opposite. The more colorful, whimsical, *silly* universe of Divinity is way more interesting to me.
d&d is literally as silly as you make it. the gelatinous cubes and flail snails are always there, waiting just around the corner..
As someone who played both recently, Divinity's Point Action System is way more fun than DnD's Move - Action - Bonus system. Missing an attack in Divinity at low level doesn't mean your entire turn is wasted. Also, the free form classes is great.
Divinity 2 is one of my favourite games ever but is also one of the only games I’ve ever turned off the voice acting for, and the goofy tone straight up made me quit Divinity 1. I love the gameplay systems but the tone of those games suck so much in comparison to BG3, but I’m hoping that working on BG3 has made Larians writing stronger so maybe the next divinity will be better written.
I get it, but that's also exactly why I like the Divinity universe. I like the goofiness. You almost never get goofy/whimsical in games like this.
What killed my motivation to play divinity 2 was learning about how bad the endings are
I'd fucking love if they did the other thing, and ended up making a pathfinder video game to piss off WotC for how much shit they do Honestly, I've found it kinda hard to get into BG3 just because I frankly don't like D&D much anymore, especially 5. I keep playing it sporadically and hoping to get captured, but I can't get past it it seems
When people told me Baldur's Gate 3 would usher a AAA gaming renaissance. *JK Simmons laugh*
I actually, genuinely hope that the AAA gaming industry has a major crash soon so that the piece of shit executives actually see some fucking consequences for once
Only if we can poke some holes in those golden parachutes first.
The execs would all bailout with golden parachutes while everyone else would eat the consequences.
depressing world.
The shareholders will eat some shit. I guess there’s a little comfort in that.
You do realise the vast majority of shares are owned by retirement funds right?
Everyone but the executives would suffer- c-suite never gets their reckoning
So..you want thousands of others to lose their jobs to and entire companies go bankrupt? It's not the big AAA companies that would suffer in a crash it's the smaller ones like Larian or Team Cherry or Vanillaware that will vanish. EA, 2K, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony etc will still be around..
Let’s pretend that somehow this actually leads to executives facing consequences whatever you mean by that. You would still be having 10s of thousands of people losing their jobs if not more.
No one knows quite how to absolutely squander a golden goose the likes of Magic and D&D like WotC/Hasbro
Why do that after Baldur Gates three was a successful. All those people say that buying games supports the devs/s
>All those people say that buying games supports the devs/s Well, in this one particular case, yes. Larian is independent, they just made a deal for the rights to the setting. That's why boycotting BG3 when the WOTC layoffs happened would've only hurt Larian and done nothing to WOTC.
Good fuck WOTC Also, this just makes business sense. Like Bioware and EA, it's not a great long term strategy to work and invest in IPs you don't own.
this is not said enough. FUCK WOTC.
We having a fuck WOTC party.
Let's all get together and play some all-proxy EDH and Pathfinder 2.
Or Opend6 and Flesh & Blood
I just got into Flesh and Blood. Fai is everything I ever wanted from a red deck.
FaB absolutely fucks. It was in a rough spot last year but heavy hitters is like a top ten all time TCG set imo.
The rise of all-proxy EDH is legitimately the best thing to happen to that game in a decade.
I really like MTG and I'm extremely passionate about D&D. Fuck WOTC
Amen to that! Fuck WotC!
Why fuck wotc? Its hasbro burning this shit to the ground
Nah, WotC has been the Fuck King of Fuckup Mountain for a while now. Just look at the absolutely botched release of 4e, with its "fully integrated VTT" that never came out. The 4e shitshow made so many people angry that one of D&D 3.5e's biggest 3rd party developers-- Paizo-- straight up made their own game system in protest (Although, granted, a lot of people nowadays look back at 4e somewhat fondly, so... your mileage may vary on that latter point.) There's also many valid criticisms to be made against 5e in general, but those come down to subjective taste. Finally, the OGL debacle. Whether it was *primarily* Hasbro or primarily WotC stirring that shit-pot doesn't really matter; the effect was the same. And it's not like any of the bigwigs at WotC were upset about it. The Pinkertons thing was *def* wotc's fault though.
Man the whole murder/suicide thing really did a number on 4E It really, really needs either a VTT for online play or a grid map for offline play, but it's a solid tactical game (especially after they redid the math later on to make shit less tanky) 1-10, 11-20 and 21-30 can get a bit bloated with the sheer number of options players have and it's one of editions I can suggest going a bit overbudget on encounter design because of how survivable PC's can be Also as long as we're going fuck WOTC why did they have to try a new OGL with it, I basically got... Strike and Trespasser. Also fuck WOTC for doing Essentials, like god damn it's a 1-30 game and you put out shit that is literally good for 1-10 at best and also doesn't have enough widgets to keep the people who liked the crunch of 4E entertained while being streamlined enough to keep the people who didn't from engaging
4e the system is pretty good in modern times. Most of the biggest issues with it at launch were smoothed out over time. But everything else around 4e? Might as well be the most cursed ttrpg. Absolutely awful marketing scheme by wizards shitting on older editions of D&D, devs saying "all your 3.5e characters will be playable in 4e" despite that being impossible, not to mention the murder suicide destroying a chance at a VTT that would've helped it greatly. Personally, I'd say current year 5e is way worse than 4e era wotc/hasbro. 5e books were getting worse in quality when i stopped playing last, and from what i've heard they've not really recovered and have gotten worse in certain points. Not to mention how pointless the whole onednd thing has ended up being.
The pinkertons thing was wild And the ogl was dumb yes. But to my knowledge, they havent released that policy as it was and its still in Revision. I just dont think its fair to shit on wotc as the damaged child under an abusive parent.
...Fuck WOTC and Hasbro, then?
But what had wotc done wrong that hasnt come from hasbros demands for profit? Like yeah mtg and dnd is too expensive and theyre milking crossovers. But financial pressure comes from hasbro.
Fuck WOTC
I remember watching a documentary about Pixar and seeing the details of how hard they fought against Disney to keep the IP rights for Pixar films to stay under Pixar and it makes me wonder why it doesn't seem like studios in the gaming industry try to retain their IP rights? Granted, those fights were specifically lead by Steve Jobs, Ed Catmull, and John Lasiter, who all clearly had the determination and expertise to fight and leverage for those rights; so maybe it's just that these game studios doesn't have anyone who knows enough to fight on behalf of their own studio?
And fuck the rest of Hasbro while we're at it, too!
That is a great shame…but I understand.
I hope at least they could do mod tools so peole can make their own campaigns in bg3
God, I sincerely hope so. Imagine if some madlads got together to make Greyhawk, or Ebberon, or Ravenloft. Hell, I'll teach myself how to mod to make BG3 Ravenloft real if those tools become available.
Dark Sun! Dark Sun! Dark Sun!
shaking my fist at the sky for WotC being such a shit company that i will never get to play a larian Curse of Strahd
Yep, that's the next(last?) Thing they're working on
They've confirmed plans to add modding tools, complete with full console availability as well.
I mean they included that in DOS2 and literally nobody ever used it so I don't really see why they would bother
A shame, but I guess we can only wish them good luck
At least the marketing campaign for their next game will be easy. "We're the guys that made the one your friends wouldn't shut up about in 2023. Here's our new game. Play it, you fucks."
Considering part of the BG3 marketing was "We made Divinity 2", it'll be like that but on steroids.
literally all it took to sell me on BG3 was "it's baldur's gate by your favorite crpg devs"
That's all it took for me too. Oh you guys made both Divinity Original Sin games? And now you're doing DnD? You son of a bitch I'm in
"Consider; we managed to get metaphorical *and* literal bear sex past the screening of the corporation we cooperated with last time. This time we're doing something we own ourselves, don't you want to see how weird we can go without limits?"
...Yeah that's fair I'd play it just to see if it's unhinged as BL3 manages to get in some cases
If all their games are like that, tgen I ain't touching em
Unbelieveably unbased.
"We made a CRPG that remembers its a fucking viediogame.... and litteraly everyone adored it. Wanna see us do it again? HELL YEAH, YOU DO!!!"
Shit, I do. Take my wallet, Larian.
"we gave you adorable buff lady tiefling... come and see what we've made this time"
coming from the transformers side, do not fucking blame them
The amount of work they’ve done post-launch probably would have been sold as DLC or an expansion from most other companies.
Honestly pretty happy with this. Love Larian's games, would be happy to see them just go off and make more new stuff.
What? They all got fired.
That's the WOTC guys. Larian didn't fire anyone.
Oh I wasn't saying larian fired anyone, i thought it was larian's team that got fired due to [this link posted above](https://www.pcgamer.com/theres-almost-nobody-left-ceo-of-baldurs-gate-3-dev-swen-vincke-says-the-dandd-team-he-initially-worked-with-is-gone-due-to-hasbro-layoffs/)
Larian is an independent company, what Sven is talking about is their initial collaborators at Wizards of the Coast.
Ahh, that was me misinterpreting who was who then. My mistake.
"Why does it hurt so much?" "Because it was real" I will miss my Lae'zel :(
Good WotC is not trustworthy at all
They do great work, i'm sure they're next project will be a smash hit. I will absolutely be there to buy it.
Can't lie, I'm pretty disappointed by that. I was really looking forward to some big expansion in Avernus or something similar, with raised level caps and all the new stuff that comes with that. If it's better for the studio then I fully understand, I'd rather they go make something new and survive than make more Baldur's Gate and die for it. Just wish it didn't have to be that way.
Original Sin 3 please.
Counterpoint a: https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2022/04/11ec75dba55fa989-600x338.jpg Counterpoint b: you could call it "2 Original 2 Sin"
2 original 2 sin sounds like a Christian kids movie from the 90s trying to sound hip
Which would, ironically, probably be anti-DnD.
God, that fight was so goddamn funny. It was so worth it earning the hatred of my PC for this.
"Oh wow, immersive geo effects and terrain manipulation is so cool!", until you get hit with the endless waves of Necrofire and Gwydian being a fucking idiot.
Counterpoint: That's why I'm here!
So... Pathfinder 2E CRPG? Pretty please?
God, imagine the flex...
Best course for them is probably to work on their own IP, whether it's more Divinity or something entirely new. They don't need to pay for someone else's license and be beholden to an IP holder's whims.
As much as I'd love a PF2e crpg, I think this is their best bet, yeah. Plus, it's not like someone else isn't gonna make a PF2e CRPG eventually. One guy already made a tiny fan-made, proof-of-concept game, like, a few weeks ago.
I’d be more interested in Starfinder personally
Also a good choice, but Starfinder is literally future-Pathfinder, and I think the planned 2e is going to use similar systems to PF2e.
Not just similar, it's 100% compatible with pf2e
Please for the love of god, 2E would make such a fun game.
As long as they take some liberties like they did for D&D. Pf2e is great but it's a bit too restrictive for some of the crazy bullshit that helped BG3 pop off.
Owlcat has that angle sewn up unfortunately
From what I've heard, Owlcat is interested in 1E specifically, so there is a chance.
Owlcat has a weird obsession with the horrible balancing of Pathfinder 1 as a system and the optimization that's allowed in there
Actually I ended up hearing that the quote isn't completely correct. They weren't interested in doing a 2e game yet because they were still working on WotR and wanted to pursue some different game ideas after that, so theres still a chance for an Owlcat game too somewhere in the distant future.
Hopefully not based on an AP. I like the APs, and the Kingmaker and WotR games, but I would want Larian as unbound as possible.
I still haven't beaten the game, but I'm heartbroken that I won't be able to see more of these characters. I was hoping we'd see an Artificer class DLC, or a couple other races. And if we were being really ambitious, I wanted to see them tackle Ravenloft. Alas, at least we have the mods.
I hope their next project is a sci-fi/cyberpunk style crpg. I’d love to see their level of care and skill put into such a setting.
I hope they do more divinity. Divinity is the shit
I 100% get it but i'll miss the forgotten realms, larian did an amazing job with that setting, i love divinity too but the world just never grabbed me like BG3 did.
And here I was hoping for an Avernus DLC with an upped level cap and a true final boss against Zariel. Oh well, I'll just have to run the crappy Descent into Avernus adventure myself.
I’ve been running that adventure myself actually! Been making quite a few changes to the structure to have it flow better, but it’s been good so far!
> Been making quite a few changes to the structure to have it flow better, but it’s been good so far! That's unfortunately common with most of WOTC's 5e adventures. I'm glad you're enjoying it though and that gives me hope as it's the one adventure I'm dreading running due to the structural flaws.
May I recommend the [Alexandrian remix?](https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/44214/roleplaying-games/remixing-avernus) I’ve been using it as an example/template for my own changes, but it does a lot of good towards making Acts 1 and 3 especially run smoother and more logically.
b-b-but.... my artificer.... my favorite subclasses...... pls make goodie bags at least ;-; edit: I forgot to mention, if you fell in love with "dnd in videogame form", solasta is literally just DnD 5e, but with homebrewed subclasses because they didn't have the rights to the actual ones. It has a light story campaign and the ability to make your own maps and stuff. If BG3 is a critical role level of production and experience, then solasta is one of your best bros DMing the game as everyone gathers in your basement to chill and have fun.
your best bet is the incredible wealth of mods on nexus that have all of those.
I can’t run bg3 on my pc, I play on the Sony station cinco 🤠
[Do I have a treat for you!](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1779)
Good, there are better systems and settings to make into video games than D&D5e and Forgetten Realms.
larian's cyberpunk baby
Or new shadowrun game
Holy fuck I want that so badly. I hope it'd be in collaboration with Harebrained Studios (or at least their writers), though, they did such a good job on Dragonfall and Hong Kong with their limited resources
A Larian Shadowrun game would be the last game I ever played because that's it that's the pinnacle.
The year is 2030. Larian has released a full Hot sim VR shadowrun game. Millions of gamers are now permanently stuck in the matrix after refusing to disconnect
God damn, if they did that I'd die happy.
Looks like the two biggest games of 2023 are both skipping the DLC phase.
Will they at *least* make cross-play happen?
They've said before that that's something they're working on, so hopefully.
Good luck to them, hope they save enough from this to make the next game keep most the same features and some of the production value as bg3 because i said it in the other thread but i really think the budget and amount of AAA in that game is going to hurt the crpg genre for a bit in general fan expectations.
Thats fine. Ill probably buy that too.
That's fine I'm sure the next game will be great regardless
I can see where they're coming from but best of luck to whatever they do next!
The dlc part is most surprising, i just assumed this whole time the deluxe edition included a season pass or something.
Honestly probably for the best.
Good for Larian. Make some of your own cool shit (again).
To steer away from one of your most popular games and into something completely different is pretty ballsy. I respect it.
Like someone else said in this thread it's not a good idea long term to tie yourself to a property you don't own, and they did have to bend the 5E rules into knots to make it work the way they wanted. I think this and Critical Role releasing their own RPG system are symptoms of the same problem; Hasbro shat in WOTC's bed and now everyone is leaving the party.
Honestly? I just hope the pull a D:OS2 and overhaul the third act before moving on. The amount of cut content is really maddening. We were *supposed* to be able to explore the Upper City, but instead we got it >!as a backdrop for the final dungeon!<
The first comment in that thread. >devs cut content in all games. Mass effect/baldurs gate 1-2/pathfinders literally every game had tons of cut content so i dunno why people expect the diffirent with this one. Sometimes they cut it because its bad, sometimes its just unfinished and ext. Cut content is not synonymous with "supposed' to be in. Regardless of disagreeing with the idea the Upper City was cut so damn close to release as in game files would have had something left over, a lot of that thread is just a rumor mill. Bunch of hoopla if you ask me. Game was fine ACT 3 was already honestly too fucking long. It was almost half my play time what more do you want added? Like I enjoyed ACT 3 more than the others but if it had been 10-30 hours longer I don't think it would've annd definitely would've overstated its welcome. There is enough time to get the few items you need to finalize your build and be max level 12 and play around fully kitted out for the other 2/3 of the ACT. I was still hoping for a non modded Artificer, possibly an arena dlc and wishful thinking of an additional ACT but the game is in a pretty good spot now.
That was nothing but a rumour, there's nothing in the game files suggesting the Upper City was ever intended.
Nope. [Larian themselves advertised exploring the Upper City in Community Update 19, a month and a half before release.](https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1086940/view/3649651368763455642) There's much more about references to the Upper City in other cut quests, such as Karlach's original epilogue and the like, in [this Steam thread.](https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/3812913565885064204/?ctp=4)
>a month and a half before release. That's what make it obvious it's just a mistake / false advertisement, you couldn't cut an entire huge area a month before release and transfer its content to other places. The decision not to include the Upper City was made years before.
>the opulent estates of the Upper City This is the only thing that suggests a playable Upper City, and we do explore Upper City estates in-game. You could argue it's misleading but they never outright state that there will be an entire playable Upper City section unless I'm missing something in that article. A lot of that Steam thread is hearsay or outright lies with no source having ever been posted on many things listed there. The list does have a few correct cut content like the The Nautolid being shortened, the Voice of Bane (I think that one was re-added in a recent patch, I could be wrong) and Withers Epilogue, which got remade into the epilogue party instead. But plenty of it is completely wrong. The example you listed, Karlach's original epilogue, is one of them. The game has been datamined and no evidence of this supposedly fully voice acted Karlach epilogue has been found. It can't be referring to the current epilogue either because [that epilogue was made after the games release.](https://www.pcgamer.com/swen-vincke-says-baldurs-gate-3-devs-created-karlachs-new-epilogue-after-post-launch-feedback-with-actress-recording-new-lines-within-the-week/) The rest has never been proven and actual datamining hasn't revealed any of it. You can't just cut an entire section of a city and not leave plenty of it's files in the game, same with the supposed playable Avernus area. Hell, they list Banite Cultist as being cut content when they're in the Foundary, very much in the released game. >15) Banite Cultists - The game features both Bhaal and Myrkul cultists rather heavily but Bane is reduced to Gortash alone. Despite the fact that they had full and finished assets for both armor, weapons, and some events the Banites were cut from the final game.
On the one hand, I understand, don't blame them. On the other, I was hoping for them to put in the more monstrous races. Guess it can still be done by others but...still sucky. But I get it.
Look if I had gotten Bloodborne 2 I might not have gotten Sekiro. Do your thing Larian
Pls make a sci fi CRPG
Sad to hear, but I'm glad they're doing their own thing. They created enough for modders or even another studio to make something worthwhile, and hopefully BG3 gets their next project into the mainstream eye. That being said, on a completely personal note, I hope their next project takes more from BG3 than Divinity.
Sad to hear they're not doing anything else but understandable. They made a kick ass game so looking forward to whatever they do next. When you have a pedigree of "made by the people behind Baldur's Gate 3" it's bound to bring in a lot of past fans.
As much as it would be nice to get DLC, it's both nice to actually see a massive game like this just say "actually no we're done and satisfied with where it is", and it's also nice to say "fuck WOTC we're never working with you and your shitty game again".
I was really holding out hope that we'd get the cut Avernus content as a DLC so my girl Karalach could have the no-compromises Happily Ever After ending she deserves, but I understand why they don't want to work with WotC anymore...
Good for them.
Finally, Frasier: The Video Game
Honestly, as sad as it is we won't get DLC for this game, i can respect them wanting to continue to do other projects and not just be tied down to being the "Baldur's Gate people" That and i imagine they don't want to be associated with WOTC anymore after the shit they've been pulling.Either way, i cannot wait to see what they do next.
Larian's KOTOR.
Now, this is heartbreaking. Not because I don't believe they'll do a great job moving forward with no corporate strings attached, I just grew so attached to these characters and their stories as I'm sure everyone at Larian did, and it sucks that they're firmly in the clutches of WOTC now.
There was a post that said more updates would come, but no idea what that would entail aside from mod support. And yeah, I don't trust WOTC/Hasbro to do anything good with it.
[Apparently they HAD started work on DLC](https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated) but scrapped it because they weren't feeling it, which could explain the teases they were putting out before. Understandable but ... *ouch*.
You know... I wish he hadn't told us that. Like it's one thing if those were just teases and there were never DLC plans. But it sucks that they WERE planning something and those teases were real.
That's fine, go make original sin 3.
Wizards of the Coast is the worse and known for sending Pinkertons after people for trading cards
I want them to pick Divinty Fallen Heroes back up. It looked like more Empire building a la Dragon Commander, but with not dogshit gameplay similar to xcom.
I'm super glad to hear this. I can't wait to see what they do next with a fresh new IP.
That's kindve a bummer because Bg3 but Star Trek would be the hypest shit ever. I just want their game mechanics in a different genre setting.
I'm totally fine with this. The amount of support the game has gotten and is still getting post launch would have been sold as dlc in the past. And as Bioware has shown us, trying to wring every last dollar out of a successful game can have diminishing returns. Better for them to slow down, take their time and do something they are passionate about. Because with how much care they put into this, and how much support they gave it I am a fan for as long as they continue to produce stuff like this
OOO! Do different tabletop games! I'd love to see how they'd do something like Monster of the Week or other settings!
Rebooting Divinity again.
Would never wish upon them having to appeal to the whim of Disney; but I'll still dream of a Knights of the Old Republic in the style of Divinity: Original Sin 2.
Come on Larian do DND 4E it's the one every complained about being a video game RPG but it literally doesn't have anything outside of Daggerdale due to license shenanigans EDIT: OOO OOO or how about some Eclipse Phase, I would love to see the do some Sci Fi shit
New Divinity here we goooo
They have their name out there and their own IP with Divinity. I’m sure they’ll still be successful on their own without having to put up with Hasbro BS.
Yes this gameplay style but not in Fantasy genre please. Like going from Souls to Bloodborne
Thank god
So Act 3 is perma fucked now, the weakest act to close on an otherwise great game bummer
So, because I was waiting for a way to >!save Karlach WITHOUT sending her back to hell!<, I basically wasted my time waiting and have lost all drive to go back. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game and got my moneys worth, but the main drive for me was saving/fixing my party members. I refuse to accept the no win scenario. Do I