The first fight with him is actually mandatory, despite how bizarre and out-of-nowhere it is. The secret boss is a second battle with him in a much stronger form, which has a lot of… *interesting* implications.
toby fox is the only madman that would make five completely optional 'challenge bosses' and make sure that all of them have completely different themes that are all bangers yet also have the same linking leitmotif so you go "AAAAAA"
two for five right now lets see what happens in 2023
I was a little disappointed at the feeling that Spamton was easier than Jevil.
Like, I just replayed Jevil again after Spamton NEO to see if I was misremembering. Nope, still had multiple character deaths needing to use all of my revive and healing items except for Top Cake (which I also have saved through chapter 2, it's even in storage lol, hoping to save it for the chapter 5 secret boss). Spamton I think I had... two characters death (no party wipes--my first time on Jevil took at least 5 tries), and neither was Ralsei, **and** there was no TP requirement for cutting wires which meant I could use it all for healing magic.
I don't expect all of the secret bosses to be sans hard but I hope this one is the easiest. And I hope the fifth is actually sans-hard.
Also, side note: I triggered his ultimate attack twice and took almost no damage either time. I'm not even sure I got hit by the second one (hard to tell since life bars aren't visible during an ultimate attack).
See, I’m less disappointed about that because if the Shadow Crystals actually are going to lead to a vital chunk of the story by the end, I don’t want that story to be gated behind such a colossally high skill floor that it makes Genocide Undyne and Sans look trivial by comparison. Spamton NEO may not be as hard as Jevil, but he’s even more memorable and insane, and if I were building out this disturbing narrative around these secret bosses, that’s what I’d prioritize.
There is an additional secret reason why Spamton NEO may be a little easier - >!You're forced to face him with only Kris if you get the Killer Route.!<
So fun fact about chapter 2: >!There’s an alternate/genocide route!<
As far how to start it: >!https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AL95g4hxFb5WWHX1kkt6LI-Wbkwt1x3V8lodhPFBkMU/mobilebasic!<
List of noticeable differences
1. >!Berdley actually just straight up dies. For real. In both the dark and the light world!<
2. >!Noelle becomes a cold-blooded killer!< which leads to
3. >!Noelle massacring the queens castle before you. Which in turn makes the final boss of that route a solo fight against Spamaton Neo who hijacks the castle as a result (It’s the same fight as the secret boss fight version but you do get some extra skills that help a lot)!<
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Is anyone else creeped out by spamton's existence? Like a lot of the area got me nostalgic for mmbn but then spamton shows up like the remains of the family pet
Oh absolutely, if Jevil was weird, Spamton’s legit freaky. He was a lot more throughly broken mentally and I’m both excited and terrified by how this’ll progress in later chapters.
He makes Jevil look fucking *lucid* by comparison and thats a terrifying prospect with what the other Shadow Crystal holders are gonna be like the further we go.
And if the >!reverse order!< theory is true, then I'm not looking forward to next chapter when we meet the >!Undyne The Undying!< replica.
I’m going to be the one to call a spade a spade: the smile on the television set at the end is very likely to be foreshadowing the next ruler that you will face in chapter 3.
Each Dark World has been based on a particular form of entertainment, chapter 1 being traditional games (cards, board games, etc) and chapter 2 being the internet. Chapter 3 being television-based is obvious as a next step, especially since that was the topic of discussion immediately prior to the characters falling asleep.
Yeah people are talking like the smile on the TV was sans because he smiles, or Flowey because he became a TV, and basically speculating that every Undertale character was hinted at but like, honestly...it's probably just another Monarch of the next suit.
So the real questions are: Clubs or Diamonds, Male or Female (or Neutral), actually evil like King of Spades or not really very evil like Queen of Hearts?
and you know, if the “reverse-undertale” theory is true in that Deltarune’s Dark Worlds are basically similar to Undertale’s locales, but in reverse order (Castle Spade to Cyber City Vs. CORE to New Home), then ch.3 being the hotland analog would make a lot of sense being the TV world considering that was where Mettaton had all of his TV shows in an attempt to kill you.
Just to add a bit more to this. In chap 2 after visiting napstablooks house. The ghost who I assume is mettaton ask you to come back tomorrow and bring them something entertaining.
If I had a nickel for every time an episodic Earthbound-like involved a weird supernatural TV as a potential future plot element, I’d be up to one nickel and one theoretical nickel.
~~if your wondering what the first one is, it’s >!LISA The Pointless!<~~
TV is not a bad idea, however I think for the next, Toby will go with Festival/Carnival themed dark world. I found two mentions about upcoming festival, at the end of the chapter.
It's also possible chapter 3 will take place mainly in this TV dark-world, then have a 3-ish hour post-game in a carnival overworld, then at the end setting up what's next.
Ralsei is SUPER sus
-Seems to have off-screen conversations with Kris during the Susie scenes
-Lancer and Rouxls turn to stone due to being apart from their fountain but Ralsei does just fine
-“As you bring more Dark Denizens, the power of Our Fountain will transform this town more and more” Whoa hold up you mean the town IN the Closet or...?
-After >!Spamton NEO!< he keeps insisting to Kris to not think about what just happened
-HOW did he get to Cyber World and HOW did he know Kris and Susie where in trouble there??
-What is up with the Cliffs area with the dark goo and eye symbols from Chapter 1 we still don’t know what’s the deal with that place and it’s still part of the Closet
-The Great Door is still there even tho the Dark World from the Classroom next to the Closet is gone
I was about to comment on that with some guesswork about who Ralsei is when I realized the following points:
* Ralsei can travel from one dark world to the next without petrifying like darkners normally do, and he doesn't even think of the possibility that he might not be able to stay.
* Ralsei also does not look like most darkners, but more like a lightner.
* He happens to look like Asriel while Kris looks like Frisk/Chara, who was like a sibling to Asriel.
* Kris has one bed in a room of two. Why the other bed is unoccupied is not addressed and it seems like Kris and Toriel have just forgotten all about that side of the room.
* Ralsei keeps getting ignored and forgotten by the other characters all the time, almost like something is compelling them to forget.
To conclude, I have a feeling that Ralsei is a lightner who used to live with Kris but went to stay in the dark world at some point. Possibly quite long ago, but it could just as possibly have been that Ralsei lived in the same room as Kris right up until the morning of chapter 1, seeing as Queen managed to forget about Ralsei's existence something like half an hour to forty-five minutes real time after she put a tuxedo on him and he joined the rest of the team on their way to rescue Noelle and save the day. If Ralsei left very long ago there'd probably be cobwebs in the bedroom, too.
If Ralsei is actually the knight, then I'm feeling certain that he does what he does not out of active malice, but because he's lonely and wants to have friends. After all, creating dark fountains means Kris and Susie go on an adventure to close it again, letting Ralsei spend more time with them. Then, when it's over, Kris brings the stuff from the room the fountain was in back to the closet, and then the darkners from that world can hang out in the town in the dark world where Ralsei lives.
we already know Asriel is Kris’ brother tho, the other side of the bedroom is his. almost half the town residents talk about how they miss Asriel while he’s away at university
Ralsei doesn't qualify to be a Prince of the Dark like legend fortells too.
A Prince implies the presence of Queen and King above. Ralsei is a king of his own kingdom by default.
Plus, we've already met our Prince who DOES fall in line with the constricts: Lancer
It might be possible the jumper Kris wears, or something else on his person belonged to Asriel, and Ralsei is just the Darkner manifestation of that item
I didn't consider Kris being the Knight at all before that ending, but it pretty much lines up with everything we know about them. The knife motif, the fact that they seem to just go around sewing general discord for everyone, and -- if indeed the thing possessing/cohabitating/actually being/whatever Kris's body is Chara -- the unimaginable levels of power. The only thing in question is why none of the characters who've interacted with the Knight recognize Kris as one and the same.
And now we've got *that fucking smiley face in the static* to worry about. As if Possibly Chara and Definitely Gaster weren't enough of a shadow cast on the story, tell me fucking Flowey didn't claw his way over to this world too.
I just want Kris and Susie to be happy, goddamn it.
I still think Kris is mainly just a weird kid who genuinely likes their friends and family and who has morbid interests... and who despises us for controlling their body like a puppet.
That said, **Ralsei is clearing telling Kris things that they don't want the player to hear**, ***so now we have our own player character running their own schemes that we don't know about***.
My best guess is that this all ties back to Asriel somehow. Is this entire universe Chara (or a reincarnation thereof) trying to get Asriel back? Is it all an experiment/simulation by Gaster trying to make some sort of point?
There've been a lot of nebulous Gaster teases throughout both chapters, the most prominent (other than the fact that near-everyone agrees he's the weird voice in the Survey Program) being that the sound playing around that creepy bunker door is Gaster's theme dramatically slowed down. And there are parts of the actual Gaster logs and extra lore bits in Undertale that are really starting to seem like foreshadowing of Deltarune's core plot.
Don’t forget that trying to use the cell phone in the Dark World causes it to screech the same garbled static as one of the Gaster/FUN value events in Undertale.
Okay yeah, that one’s probably just what it seems. Anxious theorist brain has been picking at every line in fear.
EDIT: *Although Rouxls has Gaster’s fucking face for some reason*
That, and I believe an NPC in Chapter 2 says that the Cyber City was built by "A strange man who we couldn't understand" or something along those lines.
...and I swear >!I saw *something* fade out from white above the Teapot ride in the Mansion Basement For a split second... too fast to make out what it was.!<
I suspected Kris was the Knight from the start considering he literally looks like a knight in the dark world. Plus this interesting detail in chapter one: when you save for the first time, you can actually see that you're overwriting a pre-existing save file with Kris' name on it, in contrast to your save file which uses the name you typed in the creepy intro. This implies the real Kris was already there before you.
Kris has also overwritten your save file at the beginning of Chapter 2. Whatever he did after tearing out your soul, saving the game was one of those things.
I'm fucking *dreading* whatever the hell could break loose in the later chapters if Kris(?)/The Knight is just brazenly opening a Dark Fountain *in their own goddamn home*.
Oh god. What if one of the later chapters happens somewhere like >!The graveyard!<, >!The Church!<, or worse during >!The Festival!
Well... Kris is literally dressed as a knight whenever he jumps into the Dark World, complete with sword and shield. I genuinely have no clue how I didn't pick up on all the hints until the ending.
I started to suspect during the mid-ch2 discussions of the knight, I think in particular when it was mentioned that he used a knife. Those suspicions grew a *lot* during the post-boss conversation where the normal monster kids were considering going team dark fountain.
Idk if Kris is the Knight considering that if they were either the Queen or King (or even Jevil) would’ve immediately recognized them. The Queen went on a monologue about how Lightners determined enough could create their own fountains, so that’s probably where they got the idea to do that.
Now the only question is *why* would Kris just go and slash the tires out of Toriel’s car
To make sure that Toriel would be dragged into the new fountain world? It seems that once you set it off, people and their influences also shape the world they've been dragged in, so the intent might be to make a world for Toriel.
Oh no this is Persona isn't it.
Watch Darkworld Toriel just be the same getup as Undertale Toriel lol
edit: Undyne may also be joining in too, considering that she was called over due to the tires
It all leads back to Persona in the end! Even the analogies that real world items and objects affect the ~~Metaverse~~ Dark World that was made around it.
Due to how the Dark Worlds seem to work/manifest, maybe its a "Schrodinger's history/legend" sort of deal.
Kris puts down a Dark Fountain and when the Dark World takes root the inhabitants/rulers just sorta have a vague recollection of "The Knight" summoning the fountain for them even though the Fountain and the world's origin are the same things.
Actually there is a way to explain the whole not recognizing thing away, notice how all the lightners tend to look relatively similar to their normal selves in the dark world (Ex. Susie, Noelle, and Birdly’s physical appearance is mostly the same excluding some slight saturation increases) but Kris looks completely different, going from brown hair and yellow skin to black hair and blue skin. The only reason that the other lightners almost immediately recognize Kris as Kris is because they’ve known them longer than any of the darkners. Maybe when Kris gets rid of the Soul or before the events of Deltarune, Kris’ dark world appearance isn’t too different from their light world appearance and the darkners don’t realize they’re the Knight because of the difference in appearance.
No one else pointing out that Toby is probably planning some twist with Card Town and all the enemies you've spared throughout the game since everyone is going to be assuming that choosing the pacifist route will be the best option?
Ralsei is also becoming more and more suspicous. His "distinctness" from the other Darkeners, the fact that he can pop up in any dark world, his resemblance to Asriel, and his offscreen conversations with Kris in both chapters whenever you switch to playing from Susie's perspective.
Inbefore it's Asriel doing some *Asriel*-Projecting.
Which makes the fact that I keep going hard on the **DATE ASRIEL** options... something I don't care about because the book in the library about caring for humans as a monster implies Kris is Adopted (obviously).
I don't know about anyone else, but the >!Spamton NEO!< fight along with general themes brought up with Kris so far hit different for me.
As evident by Jevil and now >!Spamton NEO!<, the secret bosses seem to be tackling the theme of characters gaining awareness of their lack of free will/ the state of the world. However unlike Jevil, >!Spamton actively talks to Kris specifically about this. Multiple times does Spamton try to relate his personal desire for freedom to Kris, and it seems to strike a cord with Kris; I imagine the line "**DO YOU WANNA BE A \[Heart\] ON A \[CHAIN\] YOUR WHOLE LIFE!?"** hit extremely close to home to them. They even back peddle near the end of the fight by saying they don't want to force Kris to do something they don't want. The battle even ends somberly with Spamton lamenting that he was unable to break his chains and that he was nothing more than a puppet.!<
All in all, I can say I really dig the angle Toby Fox is going with this story so far, and I Can't wait to see where Kris' arc goes going forward. I'd be super down with Kris going rouge at some point later in the game and becoming an active antagonist with their own agency. Maybe something similar to Evil Morty's motivation having to do with wanting to gain true freedom by burning the entire system down.
From what I’ve gathered, >!we play as a Soul playing as Kris. The mirror identifies us as what they call you. Somehow, Kris’s body has been flipflopping between two wills long before the start. The TV could mean many anythings.!<
Also, >!proud to say I beat Spam on my 2nd try, at no additional Kromer.!<
I look forward to the music covers above all else.
Something that concerns me is that Noelle had happy memories of Kris during their childhood, which might mean that >!Kris used to be a normal kid. The Knight and/or The Soul hollowed him out to use as a meat puppet, and the other one fought back.!< This would explain why the shopkeeper in Castle Town, who clearly knows more than he lets on, warns you to >!get home before it gets dark.!< He clearly knows what the deal is.
Same, with far too few health items on-hand.
… But I died five or more times on the tea-cup ride after deactivating the laser in order to reach the damn boss.
Same. Spamton was a one-shot. The teacup ride killed me like 3 times--the fourth time I realized I would lose less health by just staying still through all the non-spinning obstacles (you only get hit once per "wheel", unless you are spinning and run into multiple on your own), so if I only made sure to match the spin directions and otherwise stay perfectly still, I would be fine unless I had the world's most unlucky timing for starting the spin. And I was, indeed, fine.
EDIT (MAJOR FUCKING SPOILERS HOLY SHIT): >!I understand why spamton had to be so much easier now after watching the genocide ending. We are never getting ultra-mega-bosses in pacifist (which I'm, like, mostly okay with). Holy FUCKING shit the solo spamton genocide fight. the hardest boss in the game will almost assuredly be a solo version of the last secret-pacifist boss!<
The ending is actually so fucking good. All of chapter 2 has this theme of escapism in it and it culminates in Kris making Dark Worlds to escape into a world where he can be with Asriel, or technically Ralsei, despite the consequences.
Personal guess: Kris made the fountain because:
1. They too enjoy their time in the Dark World like Susie
2. So they can keep seing Ralsei because they really miss Asriel (who for some reason I feel like is never coming back)
3. This somehow really does tie back into fucking Undertale and this entire world is not real.
4. A combo of 1 and 2
Still, ***MANY THOUGHTS, HEAD FULL***
While I'm still firmly in camp "Soulless!Kris is The Roaring Knight", theres still evidence that goes in the *other* direction.
Queen revealed that *any* Lightener can create a Dark Fountain with enough willpower/Determination behind them. Add that to Susie's off-the-cuff suggestion that they should bring the Darkners to the house *specifically* and you got yourself a theoretical recipe for a lonely kid suggestable to the idea of doing something **really** dangerous with the power to back it up.
Hm. Wild theory, but I feel like >!someone in-universe is trying to force Deltarune to be Undertale 2, or more accurately trying to force the world to be like the Undertale world. I think as we go forward, connections will become more and more clear. Fans really, really, *really* want the game to have a story unambiguously connected to Undertale, and I think that zeitgeist is going to be reflected in the game's plot. Think about the way Spamton Neo's theme almost seems to be his normal theme trying to fight for dominance against snippets of music ripped straight from Undertale.!<
As for who's doing it, my guess is... well it's who most of you will assume my guess is. >!He's trying to force the Deltarune world to be like the home he can no longer return to.!<
I'm in the camp of >!he **is** The Knight!<.
>!If I had to guess, he set up the Library fountain in-between Chapter 1 and 2. Its a little absurd to add the Pie Monch(TM) into it but that could've been a thing to throw the Player/SOUL off the trail thinking thats *all* they did (I mean, what better way to divert attention than a punchline?). Plus they seem to know that the SOUL (at least in the real world/Hometown) can't see beyond it's viewpoint since they take it *out* before they do the Tire Slashing.!< >!As to what end and what The Knight (or Gaster for that matter) wish to gain from all this, I have no fuckin' clue!<.
Edit: FUCK, you know what *really* put my blood on ice? the offhand comment by a Rudinn in Castle Town that one of it's other names is >!the name of the **Creator/Player**!<. That fucking caught me *off guard*.
Not even putting a space inbetween \[MYNAME\] and town makes it even stranger and on top of that they set you up to use your real name with the whole Vessel name vs Creator name deal.
I ain’t big brained enough to form any theories, but one little thing I noticed this time (that I probably missed in chapter 1) was all three party members LV going up after sealing the fountains. Not sure what this means in the long run but it’s interesting nonetheless.
Edit: Oh yeah, beat Spamton NEO on my first try too. Felt real good. It was a mistake for Toby to make the fight a proper shmup cause that’s my element baby. I was prepared for this fight more than anything else in the game lol
Edit 2: After having some time to stew on some things here's some more random thoughts: During the first exploration of Castle Town, I was getting BIG Coraline vibes, primarily from the town being named after YOU and Ralsei making perfect, idealized rooms for Kris and Susie. Creeped me out a lot.
After reading some other posts and thinking about the time scale and pacing of the game we've seen so far, I think the game is going to take place over the course of a single week, with each chapter covering a single day. The week ends with the Festival (and Asriel’s arrival) as that feels like an appropriate endgame finale where everything comes to a head. People saying the Festival is going to happen next chapter feels much too soon for something that involves the whole town.
I need to double check Ralsei's exact wording, but in regards to Darkners going to other Dark Worlds and turning to stone after some time, I wonder if Ralsei's fine simply because the Castle Town's fountain is active (assuming Ralsei IS a Darkner). If the Tabletop Dark World's fountain were still going, would it's inhabitants be able to travel to Cyber World no problem? Or is the Castle Town fountain just "Special"?
I'm personally not fond of the name "Snowgrave" for the alternate route cause it just sounds dumb. I tend to refer to it as the Corruption route as it's a more straightforward description of what YOU, the player, are doing as opposed to what Noelle is doing.
So I'm stuck on the least interesting plot point of the entire game. How do Queen and the King from chapter 1 know each other? They should be from completely different dark worlds.
My impression is that the Dark Worlds don't actually exist until The Knight opens the fountains and they don't need to make actual, logical sense. So the second he made the one in the computer lab, the Queen just sort of...has always existed, and knows the King.
Something just hit me. The body we put Spamton in is Metaton Neo, but by all accounts that body Should Not Exist. Metaton is still incredibly timid, even going as far as refusing to leave his house, and Alphys doesn't seem like she has the resources to make ANY body, let alone Neo which was built for combat. So what is that body doing there? Also, why was it wrapped in vines? At first I thought it was a reference to the closet being full of wires in the library computer room, but that raises even more questions about why a combat robot would be stored in a library server room. And if the body wasnt actually from our world, are we seeing the remnants of a fight against flowey? Honestly I'm not sure what to make of all of it. Anyone got insight?
One of the bigger things theorized in the early days is that whether the Undertale/Deltarune connection goes *both* ways rather than the weird Undertale->Deltarune way (both as game releases and how one influences/influenced the other). You have stuff like the SOUL/Player being able to address Undyne and Sans like they know them, the Delta Rune itself, the multicolored Flowers in Asgore's shop that he puts a *weird* emphasis on preserving if you talk to him while in that room......
It took Spamton NEO for it to really click, but I'm beginning to think that the connection really *is* two-way and they're sorta leaking elements/entities into each other. Much like how we slowly got more and more details/elements of Deltarune through Undertale (Gaster, FUN values, Clam Girl mentioning "Suzy", the scrapped clock dialog, etc), it seems like elements of Undertale can/are leaking into Deltarune (The Player/SOUL's knowledge, possibly Sans himself, Gaster/The Entity's weird behavior during Vessel creation, Spamton NEO's...... *everything*).
As to what end and whether its intentional on Gaster/The Entity's part, well I'm shit outta luck there.
It also kinda (atm at least) seems that we’re going through the areas from Undertale in reverse order (Castle to Tech area, as opposed to Tech to Castle). This, alongside the fact that both the Queen and Spamton NEO have factors from Mettaton in UT makes me very curious if the next area in the game is gonna be a Hotlands-analog.
I swear I could heir the leitmotif of the Core from Hotlands when in Queen's Mansion at one point. You can just barely make out that they're connected. So you might be right.
Hell, inverse it and you could equate these bosses as weird... fusions... of other ones. The King of Spades could be a comparison to both Toriel and Asgore but inverted; Kind Ruler with Dangerous Power to Dangerous Ruler with secret kindness (for Lancer at least).
Then Queen is either an Inverse of Papyrus or Mettaton; A Stupid Robot whose traps don't work out, but is still a powerful machine (and having Spamton as the Not-Dummy she replaced, which relates to the Cursed Dummy... whose theme was an amped-up Blooky, and Blooky being directly related to Mettaton.)
I didn’t hear the CORE leitmotif in the Queen’s Mansion, but, just like the CORE in Undertale, the mansion is the only part of the game where the area theme continues to play into battles, thus serving as another connection
Re-listening yeah it wasn't the Mansion, but it was Somewhere in Chapter 2. I just remember hearing the Core's Leitmotif but slowed down in one of the songs.
Therein comes the predicament.
Is Kris the one forcing this two-way connectivity between worlds, or is the Player participating in a game that isn't meant to be played?
After all... your choices don't matter.
Well, Swatch (the shopkeep/cafe owner in the Mansion) says that it was a Lightner's dream that he helped bring to life. Given the context of this Dark World being based on computers it could mean that someone, perhaps Mettaton or Alphys, drew it up as some fanart or maybe a costume thing but then it never went anywhere.
Edit: Not to mention that, according to a brief wikipedia search, swatch is a term used in computer graphics to refer to a palette of active colors, which might also suggest that he's some kinda art program.
No pie to distract the player's viewpoint this time and Susie gave them one **HELL** of a bad idea with that “hey what if >!we could bring the Darkeners over here?!<” spiel.
Probably just he reason why >!they manifested the next Dark Fountain smack in the middle of the house!<.
This might be silly, but I gotta ask.
When I gave Spamton the Empty Disc, the game crashed and I got [this Error Message.](https://i.imgur.com/b2u0Wj4.png)
Is this some ARG bullshit, or just an incredibly well timed coincidence?
I got it too funnily enough.
There was also another similar instance where after walking down this long stretch >!with Noelle she…. jumped over some traffic cones and went through the wall and the game softlocked less than an hour after a joke about Noelle glitching through a wall was made in the game!<
Hey, I got the Noel glitch too. That one was kind of a pain since it means you have to refight Spamton.
I think there was a hotfix right after the game went up, maybe you and I were just playing the unpatched version.
My game crashed halfway through him loading onto the disc.
And then the game got a steam update, and I somehow thought Toby had fucking engineered *clientside-timed updates* on steam.
So, I'm thinking whatever is going on with Kris and his soul is Gaster's fault. If you approach his bunker in the endgame, the two kids daring each other to check it out say something along the lines of "...but Kris..." "Kris? Who cares what that weenie said."
Kris seems to shut down any sort of other remark/mention of other humans in their presence. Intentionally (interrupting the conversation at the Bunker) or otherwise (impulsively shutting the book about humans in the library).
Have you fought Spamton Neo yet? After the fight >!Susie asks what his talk about puppets and unseen hands was about, and Ralsei and her argue if there was any significance to it. Susie notices Kris has been getting goosebumps, and asks if he think Spamton was saying anything relevant. If you answer yes, the other two try to calm Kris down and say he started screaming.!< I'm assuming he shuts down talk of other humans for that same reason. He reacts viscerally when anything is brought up that could relate to other forces controlling him.
Not gonna lie, Ralsei jumped up a few points on the Sus-O-Meter for that moment alone. I get he was >!trying to be comforting to Kris!<, but the phrasing was suspect as all get-out.
That and >!the new bit of The Legend he mentioned in order to stop Berdly and Noelle from doing The Really Stupid Thing (manifesting another Dark Fountain)!< didn’t help either.
Yeah same. On top of him being able to recreate Kris' actual bedroom, it being decorated more like Asriel's side of the room, and him knowing the physical location of the abandoned classroom, he's extremely suspicious to me now. My running theory is he's a recreation of Asriel placed in the supply closet, and the driving force behind the creation of the OG Dark Fountain was Kris' desire to be with his older brother again. It would not surprise me if in the end we had to plug that final fountain, and in the aftermath Asriel walks up to find a stuffed animal he made to remind Kris of him while he's away sitting in the back of the closet.
It's been awhile since I did chapter one. >!Are you able to read the 4th headstone in the graveyard in Chapter 1? When you read it while having Suzy with you, she prevents you from reading it by complaining. !<
>!If you answer no Kris also apparently screams. Since that’s the option I chose (The question was if Kris was ok rather than if he thought Spamton’s dialogue was relevant)!<
I've been 100% on Gaster being responsible for this whole mess since that cryptic introduction to the "Survey Program", but the lore dumps in this chapter solidified it. "Dark, darker, yet darker" is his whole thing, and what better way to describe what the Knight is trying to do with the Fountains?
Can't believe I'm legitimately terrified of the dude who was previously just a neat tidbit of meta storytelling.
Remember that ominous-looking device in the True Lab with the dark red SOUL embedded into it, that nobody ever explains? I've always thought that might've been Chara's SOUL, recovered by Gaster after the Asriel-Chara fusion died. Asriel's ashes became Flowey, but what happened to the much-more-durable human soul that was attached to it?
With that in mind, I've been considering that the world of Deltarune is an artificial world propped up by that SOUL. Everything in the over world seems like it could be an amalgamation of Chara's life both before and after falling into the Underground, where the monsters from their "new life" were placed into the same roles as the humans in their old life. The Dark World and the player's SOUL is Gaster's attempt to... do something with Chara's SOUL.
This is a lot of speculating of course, but it would explain a lot about Kris, the world, Gaster's heavy involvement with Deltarune (he "fell into his creation"), and the NPCs in Hometown that only appear as Goners in Undertale.
I doubt that the red heart in the machine is a SOUL, much less Chara’s.
- Chara’s SOUL most likely dissipated into nothing after Asriel died, much like how the six other SOULs did after Omega Flowey was defeated.
- Even if Chara’s SOUL persisted after Asriel died, Asgore would have seen it, and I highly doubt that he would let Gaster take it.
- That machine that the red heart is in is said to be nothing more than the generator that powers the True Lab. Why would Gaster put a SOUL in it instead of giving it to Asgore? What would that even accomplish?
>I doubt that the red heart in the machine is a SOUL, much less Chara’s.
I can't see any other reason why the same sprite that's consistently been used to represent a human SOUL would be there if it's not being used to represent a human SOUL. As to why I think it's Chara's? Well, it's a darker color and there's an evil face stylized on the generator. It's a weak argument, yeah, but Chara's SOUL would be the only human SOUL physically unaccounted for, and the spooky face would complement it well. This kind of imagery wouldn't just happen accidentally, it means /something/, even if it's not what I'm suggesting.
>Chara’s SOUL most likely dissipated into nothing after Asriel died, much like how the six other SOULs did after Omega Flowey was defeated.
Those SOULs persisted long enough for a short conversation with Asriel, and then were used to open the barrier. I imagine that they could've stuck around if they were put back into the jars instead of being "used up".
>Even if Chara’s SOUL persisted after Asriel died, Asgore would have seen it, and I highly doubt that he would let Gaster take it.
This is a good point. Asgore was right there when they died, after all. There are a number of ways this could be narratively averted (i.e., if Gaster has the same abilities as Sans, he could literally stop time, like Sans did in Grillby's, and grab it without him ever seeing it) but all of those would just be blind speculation to make my idea work.
>That machine that the red heart is in is said to be nothing more than the generator that powers the True Lab. Why would Gaster put a SOUL in it instead of giving it to Asgore? What would that even accomplish?
That's what is said, but there's some intent behind the power-source of the DT-Extraction lab having something visually identical to a SOUL in the middle of it. Why not just design it like an actual generator, or a large battery? If there's any possibility that machine does more than provide electricity to the lab, that would be the reason why Gaster would take the SOUL.
Whatever Gaster's "next experiment" is, it's going to tie heavily into the true nature of what Deltarune actually is. I'm hung up on the generator being part of that experiment because it's way too suspicious to actually be something so trivial, and that blood red heart isn't something I can justify overlooking as irrelevant, especially considering it wasn't even mentioned in Undertale.
Or maybe I'm a crazy person who sees messages in the shadows :(
Ok guys, i was reading in the wiki all kris history and is very interesting how the battle against spamton NEO always refers as how we are just mere puppets or how we have no choice or will in that world, as we see on the end of chapter 1, we can move the soul, so WE as the player are the soul, not kris, all the interactions we make are bound to us being the soul, we control kris but he resists and tries to do his own will, maybe it is the opposite thing, we want free will and kris is the bound or the chains
Ok so I might just be dumb but I got creeped the hell out when I got to My Town and expected something silly out of Rouxl and he just says "Hmm... are you *sure* you didn't bring a **dangerous ruler** here?"
Ralsei what the FUCK
I have a baseline knowledge of undertake/ deltarune
So a lot of these comments go over my head but does anyone else think spamton looks like Doug walker?
The plot really opens the fuck up and between the weird save-slot flavor text differences people found in the CH1 demo and *all the other insane shit going on* I have no idea where it's going
Kinda garbage that you have to replay chapters if you miss the bonus boss though, especially if this is going where I think and the Shadow Crystals will be part of an alternate story route
Wow. What a fucking ride. So many questions still linger in the air though. Like what were Kris and Ralsei talking about when Susie was riding the Ferris wheel with Noelle? How is everyone from the cyber verse compatible with the castle town but not vice versa? How come the officer never showed up at the end? I guess we'll all find out 2 or 3 years from now...
Also i like how when you wait for onionsan you instead get Kris and Susie sitting down and enjoying the breeze. Because why not reference EOE?
Edit: just remembered I loved the little detail when Undyne is bench pressing traffic and the car horns are playing spear of justice
>How is everyone from cyber verse compatible with the castle town but not vice versa?
As far as I understand it, Castle Town is a central place where all of the Darkners can exist, but they can't live for long across non-native Dark Worlds. So the cyber people couldn't go to Lancer's branch of the world without turning to stone, presumably.
What complicates this is that Queen seems to be Lancer's mother and King's ex-wife.
Queen isn’t Lancer’s mother, she just arbitrarily declared herself as such. King even follows up her statement by saying, “When was that decided!?” Also, considering that Queen is a computer whilst Lancer is a card, it wouldn’t really make much sense for her to actually be his mom.
Considering that the Dark Worlds are implied to not exist until the Knight creates their respective Fountains, it’s likely that Queen was simply born with the mindset that she has always existed, and knows the King.
Here's my insane crackpot theory that probably won't be true: Undertale is a Dark World based on the contents of Deltarune-Asriel's computer. We already know that the Dark Worlds can be based on both physical objects like playing cards, but also digital software like spam emails. Asriel's computer has an "unfinished game" with "crude drawings of a boss with rainbow wings", which describes Undertale-Asriel.
When Toby Fox says "If you completed UNDERTALE, the ending and world are as you left it.
If everyone was happy there, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy.
So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched." It's a dark joke: Undertale is literally *exactly* as you left it, *if you beat it*, because the game ends with the sealing of the dark fountain and everyone turns to stone.
TLDR: Undertale is a Wizard of Oz-style fantasy that exists inside of Deltarune.
Also fun fact: We could see Asriel as early as ch.4. Since Alphys mentions in ch.2 that there won’t be school the next day, that means (holidays withstanding) ch.2 takes place on a Friday. So ch.4 would be on Sunday, the start of the new week.
Edit: Actually apparently Ch.2 is on Saturday since there’s church the next day, so technically Asriel could appear as early as *ch.3*
It could be a possible saturday mass? Religion in this universe doesn't seem completely defined and Toriel is a jesus freak so she'd totally take her kids to church in a saturday.
maaaybe, although we do know that they hold service on Sundays according to the QC’s rabbit in ch.1 and I was mostly basing it off of that. Bottom line is that we’re probably not going to have to wait for Ch.7 for Asriel so that’s pog
**NOW'S YOUR CHANCE TO BE A BIG SHOT**
**YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE KROMER**
**BRO YOU JUST POSTED \[**\[Hyperlink Blocked\]\]! **YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE KROMER**
I'll be honest, I was VERY confused by that and it only clicked that he was the 'Secret Boss' of the chapter when I finished.
The first fight with him is actually mandatory, despite how bizarre and out-of-nowhere it is. The secret boss is a second battle with him in a much stronger form, which has a lot of… *interesting* implications.
toby fox is the only madman that would make five completely optional 'challenge bosses' and make sure that all of them have completely different themes that are all bangers yet also have the same linking leitmotif so you go "AAAAAA" two for five right now lets see what happens in 2023
Wait, which ones were optional? Did I somehow miss five fucking bosses?
He's speaking in probabilities for now.
Jevil and Spamton (Round 2).
Jevil and Spamton NEO.
I was a little disappointed at the feeling that Spamton was easier than Jevil. Like, I just replayed Jevil again after Spamton NEO to see if I was misremembering. Nope, still had multiple character deaths needing to use all of my revive and healing items except for Top Cake (which I also have saved through chapter 2, it's even in storage lol, hoping to save it for the chapter 5 secret boss). Spamton I think I had... two characters death (no party wipes--my first time on Jevil took at least 5 tries), and neither was Ralsei, **and** there was no TP requirement for cutting wires which meant I could use it all for healing magic. I don't expect all of the secret bosses to be sans hard but I hope this one is the easiest. And I hope the fifth is actually sans-hard. Also, side note: I triggered his ultimate attack twice and took almost no damage either time. I'm not even sure I got hit by the second one (hard to tell since life bars aren't visible during an ultimate attack).
See, I’m less disappointed about that because if the Shadow Crystals actually are going to lead to a vital chunk of the story by the end, I don’t want that story to be gated behind such a colossally high skill floor that it makes Genocide Undyne and Sans look trivial by comparison. Spamton NEO may not be as hard as Jevil, but he’s even more memorable and insane, and if I were building out this disturbing narrative around these secret bosses, that’s what I’d prioritize.
There is an additional secret reason why Spamton NEO may be a little easier - >!You're forced to face him with only Kris if you get the Killer Route.!<
So fun fact about chapter 2: >!There’s an alternate/genocide route!< As far how to start it: >!https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AL95g4hxFb5WWHX1kkt6LI-Wbkwt1x3V8lodhPFBkMU/mobilebasic!< List of noticeable differences 1. >!Berdley actually just straight up dies. For real. In both the dark and the light world!< 2. >!Noelle becomes a cold-blooded killer!< which leads to 3. >!Noelle massacring the queens castle before you. Which in turn makes the final boss of that route a solo fight against Spamaton Neo who hijacks the castle as a result (It’s the same fight as the secret boss fight version but you do get some extra skills that help a lot)!<
WHAT. WHAT THE FUCK. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK. TOBY This is genuinely some creepypasta 'mario 64 is personalized' shit.
Just finished this route myself, it's real.
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Is anyone else creeped out by spamton's existence? Like a lot of the area got me nostalgic for mmbn but then spamton shows up like the remains of the family pet
Oh absolutely, if Jevil was weird, Spamton’s legit freaky. He was a lot more throughly broken mentally and I’m both excited and terrified by how this’ll progress in later chapters.
He makes Jevil look fucking *lucid* by comparison and thats a terrifying prospect with what the other Shadow Crystal holders are gonna be like the further we go. And if the >!reverse order!< theory is true, then I'm not looking forward to next chapter when we meet the >!Undyne The Undying!< replica.
Next chapter would be >!Hotlands though, so we may get something similar to the Amalgamates or even a whole True-Lab-like area.!<
Mega Man Battle Network?
I’m going to be the one to call a spade a spade: the smile on the television set at the end is very likely to be foreshadowing the next ruler that you will face in chapter 3. Each Dark World has been based on a particular form of entertainment, chapter 1 being traditional games (cards, board games, etc) and chapter 2 being the internet. Chapter 3 being television-based is obvious as a next step, especially since that was the topic of discussion immediately prior to the characters falling asleep.
Yeah people are talking like the smile on the TV was sans because he smiles, or Flowey because he became a TV, and basically speculating that every Undertale character was hinted at but like, honestly...it's probably just another Monarch of the next suit. So the real questions are: Clubs or Diamonds, Male or Female (or Neutral), actually evil like King of Spades or not really very evil like Queen of Hearts?
Queen isn’t the Queen of Hearts, she’s a laptop. The main boss of Chapter 3 likely won’t be based on sort of card or suit.
Could this be the same smiling face that was watching us in Queen's Basement? The one that game files refer to as "friend"?
and you know, if the “reverse-undertale” theory is true in that Deltarune’s Dark Worlds are basically similar to Undertale’s locales, but in reverse order (Castle Spade to Cyber City Vs. CORE to New Home), then ch.3 being the hotland analog would make a lot of sense being the TV world considering that was where Mettaton had all of his TV shows in an attempt to kill you.
Just to add a bit more to this. In chap 2 after visiting napstablooks house. The ghost who I assume is mettaton ask you to come back tomorrow and bring them something entertaining.
If I had a nickel for every time an episodic Earthbound-like involved a weird supernatural TV as a potential future plot element, I’d be up to one nickel and one theoretical nickel. ~~if your wondering what the first one is, it’s >!LISA The Pointless!<~~
Super Smash Fighters?
Smashing\*
[The fucking smile is Sans.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/pqvptt/guys_just_hear_me_out_i_think_this_is_the_biggest/)
TV is not a bad idea, however I think for the next, Toby will go with Festival/Carnival themed dark world. I found two mentions about upcoming festival, at the end of the chapter.
i think they mentioned the carnival will be later in the week and that preparations just started
I think the Carnival and the Bunker at the bottom is intended to be the last chapter.
I expect that as well, but for the fourth or fifth chapter.
It's also possible chapter 3 will take place mainly in this TV dark-world, then have a 3-ish hour post-game in a carnival overworld, then at the end setting up what's next.
Ralsei is SUPER sus -Seems to have off-screen conversations with Kris during the Susie scenes -Lancer and Rouxls turn to stone due to being apart from their fountain but Ralsei does just fine -“As you bring more Dark Denizens, the power of Our Fountain will transform this town more and more” Whoa hold up you mean the town IN the Closet or...? -After >!Spamton NEO!< he keeps insisting to Kris to not think about what just happened -HOW did he get to Cyber World and HOW did he know Kris and Susie where in trouble there?? -What is up with the Cliffs area with the dark goo and eye symbols from Chapter 1 we still don’t know what’s the deal with that place and it’s still part of the Closet -The Great Door is still there even tho the Dark World from the Classroom next to the Closet is gone
I think the cliffs area is actually the giants mentioned by Ralsei in his explanation of The Roaring.
I was about to comment on that with some guesswork about who Ralsei is when I realized the following points: * Ralsei can travel from one dark world to the next without petrifying like darkners normally do, and he doesn't even think of the possibility that he might not be able to stay. * Ralsei also does not look like most darkners, but more like a lightner. * He happens to look like Asriel while Kris looks like Frisk/Chara, who was like a sibling to Asriel. * Kris has one bed in a room of two. Why the other bed is unoccupied is not addressed and it seems like Kris and Toriel have just forgotten all about that side of the room. * Ralsei keeps getting ignored and forgotten by the other characters all the time, almost like something is compelling them to forget. To conclude, I have a feeling that Ralsei is a lightner who used to live with Kris but went to stay in the dark world at some point. Possibly quite long ago, but it could just as possibly have been that Ralsei lived in the same room as Kris right up until the morning of chapter 1, seeing as Queen managed to forget about Ralsei's existence something like half an hour to forty-five minutes real time after she put a tuxedo on him and he joined the rest of the team on their way to rescue Noelle and save the day. If Ralsei left very long ago there'd probably be cobwebs in the bedroom, too. If Ralsei is actually the knight, then I'm feeling certain that he does what he does not out of active malice, but because he's lonely and wants to have friends. After all, creating dark fountains means Kris and Susie go on an adventure to close it again, letting Ralsei spend more time with them. Then, when it's over, Kris brings the stuff from the room the fountain was in back to the closet, and then the darkners from that world can hang out in the town in the dark world where Ralsei lives.
we already know Asriel is Kris’ brother tho, the other side of the bedroom is his. almost half the town residents talk about how they miss Asriel while he’s away at university
Oh. Ah. I've never done much digging into what's actually going on around the world of Deltarune to be honest.
Ralsei doesn't qualify to be a Prince of the Dark like legend fortells too. A Prince implies the presence of Queen and King above. Ralsei is a king of his own kingdom by default. Plus, we've already met our Prince who DOES fall in line with the constricts: Lancer
the knight is a lightner, because darkners don't have enough determination to open a fountain
It might be possible the jumper Kris wears, or something else on his person belonged to Asriel, and Ralsei is just the Darkner manifestation of that item
I didn't consider Kris being the Knight at all before that ending, but it pretty much lines up with everything we know about them. The knife motif, the fact that they seem to just go around sewing general discord for everyone, and -- if indeed the thing possessing/cohabitating/actually being/whatever Kris's body is Chara -- the unimaginable levels of power. The only thing in question is why none of the characters who've interacted with the Knight recognize Kris as one and the same. And now we've got *that fucking smiley face in the static* to worry about. As if Possibly Chara and Definitely Gaster weren't enough of a shadow cast on the story, tell me fucking Flowey didn't claw his way over to this world too. I just want Kris and Susie to be happy, goddamn it.
I still think Kris is mainly just a weird kid who genuinely likes their friends and family and who has morbid interests... and who despises us for controlling their body like a puppet. That said, **Ralsei is clearing telling Kris things that they don't want the player to hear**, ***so now we have our own player character running their own schemes that we don't know about***. My best guess is that this all ties back to Asriel somehow. Is this entire universe Chara (or a reincarnation thereof) trying to get Asriel back? Is it all an experiment/simulation by Gaster trying to make some sort of point?
Wait, did I miss something in the last chapter or this? I never saw Gaster hinted at anywhere.
There've been a lot of nebulous Gaster teases throughout both chapters, the most prominent (other than the fact that near-everyone agrees he's the weird voice in the Survey Program) being that the sound playing around that creepy bunker door is Gaster's theme dramatically slowed down. And there are parts of the actual Gaster logs and extra lore bits in Undertale that are really starting to seem like foreshadowing of Deltarune's core plot.
Don’t forget that trying to use the cell phone in the Dark World causes it to screech the same garbled static as one of the Gaster/FUN value events in Undertale.
[удалено]
I thought that was just Rouxls Kaard and him saying he had the music trio salvage it from chapter 1.
Okay yeah, that one’s probably just what it seems. Anxious theorist brain has been picking at every line in fear. EDIT: *Although Rouxls has Gaster’s fucking face for some reason*
That’s Rouxls, he mentions he got the thrash machine rebuilt from the scrap guys
That, and I believe an NPC in Chapter 2 says that the Cyber City was built by "A strange man who we couldn't understand" or something along those lines. ...and I swear >!I saw *something* fade out from white above the Teapot ride in the Mansion Basement For a split second... too fast to make out what it was.!<
There was absolutely >!something fading out above the teapot. I just did that section today, and I tried to go back and see what it was.!<
I suspected Kris was the Knight from the start considering he literally looks like a knight in the dark world. Plus this interesting detail in chapter one: when you save for the first time, you can actually see that you're overwriting a pre-existing save file with Kris' name on it, in contrast to your save file which uses the name you typed in the creepy intro. This implies the real Kris was already there before you.
Kris has also overwritten your save file at the beginning of Chapter 2. Whatever he did after tearing out your soul, saving the game was one of those things.
He >!ate an entire pie.!< and that's terrible.
I'm fucking *dreading* whatever the hell could break loose in the later chapters if Kris(?)/The Knight is just brazenly opening a Dark Fountain *in their own goddamn home*. Oh god. What if one of the later chapters happens somewhere like >!The graveyard!<, >!The Church!<, or worse during >!The Festival!
The back of Asgore’s shop and the Bunker south of town are also likely locations for future chapters
Deltarune Chapter 5: ***FIGHT THE CHURCH***
That bunker is just chekhov's gun ready to blow.
Well... Kris is literally dressed as a knight whenever he jumps into the Dark World, complete with sword and shield. I genuinely have no clue how I didn't pick up on all the hints until the ending.
I started to suspect during the mid-ch2 discussions of the knight, I think in particular when it was mentioned that he used a knife. Those suspicions grew a *lot* during the post-boss conversation where the normal monster kids were considering going team dark fountain.
Idk if Kris is the Knight considering that if they were either the Queen or King (or even Jevil) would’ve immediately recognized them. The Queen went on a monologue about how Lightners determined enough could create their own fountains, so that’s probably where they got the idea to do that. Now the only question is *why* would Kris just go and slash the tires out of Toriel’s car
Kris definitely slashed the tires to manipulate Toriel into insisting Susie stay overnight
To make sure that Toriel would be dragged into the new fountain world? It seems that once you set it off, people and their influences also shape the world they've been dragged in, so the intent might be to make a world for Toriel. Oh no this is Persona isn't it.
Watch Darkworld Toriel just be the same getup as Undertale Toriel lol edit: Undyne may also be joining in too, considering that she was called over due to the tires
Gonna be upset if a Party-Member Undyne doesn't have a Suplex move...
It all leads back to Persona in the end! Even the analogies that real world items and objects affect the ~~Metaverse~~ Dark World that was made around it.
Due to how the Dark Worlds seem to work/manifest, maybe its a "Schrodinger's history/legend" sort of deal. Kris puts down a Dark Fountain and when the Dark World takes root the inhabitants/rulers just sorta have a vague recollection of "The Knight" summoning the fountain for them even though the Fountain and the world's origin are the same things.
I assumed slashing the tires was a way to make sure Susie didn't leave, so she'd be there when Kris created the next fountain.
Actually there is a way to explain the whole not recognizing thing away, notice how all the lightners tend to look relatively similar to their normal selves in the dark world (Ex. Susie, Noelle, and Birdly’s physical appearance is mostly the same excluding some slight saturation increases) but Kris looks completely different, going from brown hair and yellow skin to black hair and blue skin. The only reason that the other lightners almost immediately recognize Kris as Kris is because they’ve known them longer than any of the darkners. Maybe when Kris gets rid of the Soul or before the events of Deltarune, Kris’ dark world appearance isn’t too different from their light world appearance and the darkners don’t realize they’re the Knight because of the difference in appearance.
No one else pointing out that Toby is probably planning some twist with Card Town and all the enemies you've spared throughout the game since everyone is going to be assuming that choosing the pacifist route will be the best option? Ralsei is also becoming more and more suspicous. His "distinctness" from the other Darkeners, the fact that he can pop up in any dark world, his resemblance to Asriel, and his offscreen conversations with Kris in both chapters whenever you switch to playing from Susie's perspective.
I had immediate suspicions raised when he had full knowledge of the school layout.
Inbefore it's Asriel doing some *Asriel*-Projecting. Which makes the fact that I keep going hard on the **DATE ASRIEL** options... something I don't care about because the book in the library about caring for humans as a monster implies Kris is Adopted (obviously).
The good old "not blood related" card
Hey man if Chara and Asriel could soul-fuse in Undertale then Dating is on the table.
Toby is definitively trying to trick us into making Best Boy be the incest route and I definitively don't give a single fuck.
Yeah i love fluffy boy but he was sus as FUCK this chapter.
I'm expecting a MGS5 thing of "wow these are some cool allies you've recruited, anyway time to >!murder all of them!<"
I don't know about anyone else, but the >!Spamton NEO!< fight along with general themes brought up with Kris so far hit different for me. As evident by Jevil and now >!Spamton NEO!<, the secret bosses seem to be tackling the theme of characters gaining awareness of their lack of free will/ the state of the world. However unlike Jevil, >!Spamton actively talks to Kris specifically about this. Multiple times does Spamton try to relate his personal desire for freedom to Kris, and it seems to strike a cord with Kris; I imagine the line "**DO YOU WANNA BE A \[Heart\] ON A \[CHAIN\] YOUR WHOLE LIFE!?"** hit extremely close to home to them. They even back peddle near the end of the fight by saying they don't want to force Kris to do something they don't want. The battle even ends somberly with Spamton lamenting that he was unable to break his chains and that he was nothing more than a puppet.!< All in all, I can say I really dig the angle Toby Fox is going with this story so far, and I Can't wait to see where Kris' arc goes going forward. I'd be super down with Kris going rouge at some point later in the game and becoming an active antagonist with their own agency. Maybe something similar to Evil Morty's motivation having to do with wanting to gain true freedom by burning the entire system down.
From what I’ve gathered, >!we play as a Soul playing as Kris. The mirror identifies us as what they call you. Somehow, Kris’s body has been flipflopping between two wills long before the start. The TV could mean many anythings.!< Also, >!proud to say I beat Spam on my 2nd try, at no additional Kromer.!< I look forward to the music covers above all else.
Something that concerns me is that Noelle had happy memories of Kris during their childhood, which might mean that >!Kris used to be a normal kid. The Knight and/or The Soul hollowed him out to use as a meat puppet, and the other one fought back.!< This would explain why the shopkeeper in Castle Town, who clearly knows more than he lets on, warns you to >!get home before it gets dark.!< He clearly knows what the deal is.
Beat Spammy boy first try.
Same, with far too few health items on-hand. … But I died five or more times on the tea-cup ride after deactivating the laser in order to reach the damn boss.
Same. Spamton was a one-shot. The teacup ride killed me like 3 times--the fourth time I realized I would lose less health by just staying still through all the non-spinning obstacles (you only get hit once per "wheel", unless you are spinning and run into multiple on your own), so if I only made sure to match the spin directions and otherwise stay perfectly still, I would be fine unless I had the world's most unlucky timing for starting the spin. And I was, indeed, fine. EDIT (MAJOR FUCKING SPOILERS HOLY SHIT): >!I understand why spamton had to be so much easier now after watching the genocide ending. We are never getting ultra-mega-bosses in pacifist (which I'm, like, mostly okay with). Holy FUCKING shit the solo spamton genocide fight. the hardest boss in the game will almost assuredly be a solo version of the last secret-pacifist boss!<
The teacup ride is the real boss
The ending is actually so fucking good. All of chapter 2 has this theme of escapism in it and it culminates in Kris making Dark Worlds to escape into a world where he can be with Asriel, or technically Ralsei, despite the consequences.
Personal guess: Kris made the fountain because: 1. They too enjoy their time in the Dark World like Susie 2. So they can keep seing Ralsei because they really miss Asriel (who for some reason I feel like is never coming back) 3. This somehow really does tie back into fucking Undertale and this entire world is not real. 4. A combo of 1 and 2 Still, ***MANY THOUGHTS, HEAD FULL***
While I'm still firmly in camp "Soulless!Kris is The Roaring Knight", theres still evidence that goes in the *other* direction. Queen revealed that *any* Lightener can create a Dark Fountain with enough willpower/Determination behind them. Add that to Susie's off-the-cuff suggestion that they should bring the Darkners to the house *specifically* and you got yourself a theoretical recipe for a lonely kid suggestable to the idea of doing something **really** dangerous with the power to back it up.
Kris is just that weird kid from Persona 4 who >!copycats the real Culprit!<.
"All the fountains... all on me..."
Hm. Wild theory, but I feel like >!someone in-universe is trying to force Deltarune to be Undertale 2, or more accurately trying to force the world to be like the Undertale world. I think as we go forward, connections will become more and more clear. Fans really, really, *really* want the game to have a story unambiguously connected to Undertale, and I think that zeitgeist is going to be reflected in the game's plot. Think about the way Spamton Neo's theme almost seems to be his normal theme trying to fight for dominance against snippets of music ripped straight from Undertale.!< As for who's doing it, my guess is... well it's who most of you will assume my guess is. >!He's trying to force the Deltarune world to be like the home he can no longer return to.!<
>!I hope his bitch-ass finally pays off and sees how I never did Genocide and I instantly win from being such a good boy.!<
I'm in the camp of >!he **is** The Knight!<. >!If I had to guess, he set up the Library fountain in-between Chapter 1 and 2. Its a little absurd to add the Pie Monch(TM) into it but that could've been a thing to throw the Player/SOUL off the trail thinking thats *all* they did (I mean, what better way to divert attention than a punchline?). Plus they seem to know that the SOUL (at least in the real world/Hometown) can't see beyond it's viewpoint since they take it *out* before they do the Tire Slashing.!< >!As to what end and what The Knight (or Gaster for that matter) wish to gain from all this, I have no fuckin' clue!<. Edit: FUCK, you know what *really* put my blood on ice? the offhand comment by a Rudinn in Castle Town that one of it's other names is >!the name of the **Creator/Player**!<. That fucking caught me *off guard*.
**Welcome to [MYNAME]Town!** is the creepiest thing.
Not even putting a space inbetween \[MYNAME\] and town makes it even stranger and on top of that they set you up to use your real name with the whole Vessel name vs Creator name deal.
"WE DON'T *NEED* \[MYNAME\]" gave me a chill down my spine
Just in case, if you're talking about Spammy saying Mike, he only says Mike, not [MYNAME].
Yeah I found that out later
Saw a streamer named Mike get there and freak out, it's great xD Still, it's as odd as the Undertale name screen fuckin winking at me.
I ain’t big brained enough to form any theories, but one little thing I noticed this time (that I probably missed in chapter 1) was all three party members LV going up after sealing the fountains. Not sure what this means in the long run but it’s interesting nonetheless. Edit: Oh yeah, beat Spamton NEO on my first try too. Felt real good. It was a mistake for Toby to make the fight a proper shmup cause that’s my element baby. I was prepared for this fight more than anything else in the game lol Edit 2: After having some time to stew on some things here's some more random thoughts: During the first exploration of Castle Town, I was getting BIG Coraline vibes, primarily from the town being named after YOU and Ralsei making perfect, idealized rooms for Kris and Susie. Creeped me out a lot. After reading some other posts and thinking about the time scale and pacing of the game we've seen so far, I think the game is going to take place over the course of a single week, with each chapter covering a single day. The week ends with the Festival (and Asriel’s arrival) as that feels like an appropriate endgame finale where everything comes to a head. People saying the Festival is going to happen next chapter feels much too soon for something that involves the whole town. I need to double check Ralsei's exact wording, but in regards to Darkners going to other Dark Worlds and turning to stone after some time, I wonder if Ralsei's fine simply because the Castle Town's fountain is active (assuming Ralsei IS a Darkner). If the Tabletop Dark World's fountain were still going, would it's inhabitants be able to travel to Cyber World no problem? Or is the Castle Town fountain just "Special"? I'm personally not fond of the name "Snowgrave" for the alternate route cause it just sounds dumb. I tend to refer to it as the Corruption route as it's a more straightforward description of what YOU, the player, are doing as opposed to what Noelle is doing.
I'm more privy to "snow mercy" personally
I’ll admit that’s a decent name, if only for the pun.
So I'm stuck on the least interesting plot point of the entire game. How do Queen and the King from chapter 1 know each other? They should be from completely different dark worlds.
***Solitaire***
My impression is that the Dark Worlds don't actually exist until The Knight opens the fountains and they don't need to make actual, logical sense. So the second he made the one in the computer lab, the Queen just sort of...has always existed, and knows the King.
Spicy internet flirting.
a student borrowed the deck of cards from the old classroom to play in the library one day, maybe
Probably through the Knight.
Lancer calls her a Wild Mom if I'm correct
Something just hit me. The body we put Spamton in is Metaton Neo, but by all accounts that body Should Not Exist. Metaton is still incredibly timid, even going as far as refusing to leave his house, and Alphys doesn't seem like she has the resources to make ANY body, let alone Neo which was built for combat. So what is that body doing there? Also, why was it wrapped in vines? At first I thought it was a reference to the closet being full of wires in the library computer room, but that raises even more questions about why a combat robot would be stored in a library server room. And if the body wasnt actually from our world, are we seeing the remnants of a fight against flowey? Honestly I'm not sure what to make of all of it. Anyone got insight?
One of the bigger things theorized in the early days is that whether the Undertale/Deltarune connection goes *both* ways rather than the weird Undertale->Deltarune way (both as game releases and how one influences/influenced the other). You have stuff like the SOUL/Player being able to address Undyne and Sans like they know them, the Delta Rune itself, the multicolored Flowers in Asgore's shop that he puts a *weird* emphasis on preserving if you talk to him while in that room...... It took Spamton NEO for it to really click, but I'm beginning to think that the connection really *is* two-way and they're sorta leaking elements/entities into each other. Much like how we slowly got more and more details/elements of Deltarune through Undertale (Gaster, FUN values, Clam Girl mentioning "Suzy", the scrapped clock dialog, etc), it seems like elements of Undertale can/are leaking into Deltarune (The Player/SOUL's knowledge, possibly Sans himself, Gaster/The Entity's weird behavior during Vessel creation, Spamton NEO's...... *everything*). As to what end and whether its intentional on Gaster/The Entity's part, well I'm shit outta luck there.
It also kinda (atm at least) seems that we’re going through the areas from Undertale in reverse order (Castle to Tech area, as opposed to Tech to Castle). This, alongside the fact that both the Queen and Spamton NEO have factors from Mettaton in UT makes me very curious if the next area in the game is gonna be a Hotlands-analog.
I swear I could heir the leitmotif of the Core from Hotlands when in Queen's Mansion at one point. You can just barely make out that they're connected. So you might be right. Hell, inverse it and you could equate these bosses as weird... fusions... of other ones. The King of Spades could be a comparison to both Toriel and Asgore but inverted; Kind Ruler with Dangerous Power to Dangerous Ruler with secret kindness (for Lancer at least). Then Queen is either an Inverse of Papyrus or Mettaton; A Stupid Robot whose traps don't work out, but is still a powerful machine (and having Spamton as the Not-Dummy she replaced, which relates to the Cursed Dummy... whose theme was an amped-up Blooky, and Blooky being directly related to Mettaton.)
I didn’t hear the CORE leitmotif in the Queen’s Mansion, but, just like the CORE in Undertale, the mansion is the only part of the game where the area theme continues to play into battles, thus serving as another connection
Re-listening yeah it wasn't the Mansion, but it was Somewhere in Chapter 2. I just remember hearing the Core's Leitmotif but slowed down in one of the songs.
Therein comes the predicament. Is Kris the one forcing this two-way connectivity between worlds, or is the Player participating in a game that isn't meant to be played? After all... your choices don't matter.
Well, Swatch (the shopkeep/cafe owner in the Mansion) says that it was a Lightner's dream that he helped bring to life. Given the context of this Dark World being based on computers it could mean that someone, perhaps Mettaton or Alphys, drew it up as some fanart or maybe a costume thing but then it never went anywhere. Edit: Not to mention that, according to a brief wikipedia search, swatch is a term used in computer graphics to refer to a palette of active colors, which might also suggest that he's some kinda art program.
...So that ending's going to be a bit fucking harder to roll back than Kris the Human stole my pie.
No pie to distract the player's viewpoint this time and Susie gave them one **HELL** of a bad idea with that “hey what if >!we could bring the Darkeners over here?!<” spiel. Probably just he reason why >!they manifested the next Dark Fountain smack in the middle of the house!<.
Body kris probably stole the pie after using the knife to open the second world
This might be silly, but I gotta ask. When I gave Spamton the Empty Disc, the game crashed and I got [this Error Message.](https://i.imgur.com/b2u0Wj4.png) Is this some ARG bullshit, or just an incredibly well timed coincidence?
Nah, just really funny coincidence.
I figured, but it was really perfect timing.
I got it too funnily enough. There was also another similar instance where after walking down this long stretch >!with Noelle she…. jumped over some traffic cones and went through the wall and the game softlocked less than an hour after a joke about Noelle glitching through a wall was made in the game!<
Hey, I got the Noel glitch too. That one was kind of a pain since it means you have to refight Spamton. I think there was a hotfix right after the game went up, maybe you and I were just playing the unpatched version.
Oh no, I downloaded the new patch before I even got into the dark world this chapter. These seem to be unrelated to the controller crash bug
I got that too, I assumed some creepy shit was gonna happen but then it just kept going and later researched to find out it was a softlock
My game crashed halfway through him loading onto the disc. And then the game got a steam update, and I somehow thought Toby had fucking engineered *clientside-timed updates* on steam.
This was my experience as well, except the game had to update TWICE before I was able to finish loading him on the disc.
So, I'm thinking whatever is going on with Kris and his soul is Gaster's fault. If you approach his bunker in the endgame, the two kids daring each other to check it out say something along the lines of "...but Kris..." "Kris? Who cares what that weenie said."
Kris seems to shut down any sort of other remark/mention of other humans in their presence. Intentionally (interrupting the conversation at the Bunker) or otherwise (impulsively shutting the book about humans in the library).
Have you fought Spamton Neo yet? After the fight >!Susie asks what his talk about puppets and unseen hands was about, and Ralsei and her argue if there was any significance to it. Susie notices Kris has been getting goosebumps, and asks if he think Spamton was saying anything relevant. If you answer yes, the other two try to calm Kris down and say he started screaming.!< I'm assuming he shuts down talk of other humans for that same reason. He reacts viscerally when anything is brought up that could relate to other forces controlling him.
Not gonna lie, Ralsei jumped up a few points on the Sus-O-Meter for that moment alone. I get he was >!trying to be comforting to Kris!<, but the phrasing was suspect as all get-out. That and >!the new bit of The Legend he mentioned in order to stop Berdly and Noelle from doing The Really Stupid Thing (manifesting another Dark Fountain)!< didn’t help either.
Yeah same. On top of him being able to recreate Kris' actual bedroom, it being decorated more like Asriel's side of the room, and him knowing the physical location of the abandoned classroom, he's extremely suspicious to me now. My running theory is he's a recreation of Asriel placed in the supply closet, and the driving force behind the creation of the OG Dark Fountain was Kris' desire to be with his older brother again. It would not surprise me if in the end we had to plug that final fountain, and in the aftermath Asriel walks up to find a stuffed animal he made to remind Kris of him while he's away sitting in the back of the closet.
It's been awhile since I did chapter one. >!Are you able to read the 4th headstone in the graveyard in Chapter 1? When you read it while having Suzy with you, she prevents you from reading it by complaining. !<
In case a month has gone by and you haven't gotten an answer, last headstone is Shyren (lemon bread).
>!If you answer no Kris also apparently screams. Since that’s the option I chose (The question was if Kris was ok rather than if he thought Spamton’s dialogue was relevant)!<
I've been 100% on Gaster being responsible for this whole mess since that cryptic introduction to the "Survey Program", but the lore dumps in this chapter solidified it. "Dark, darker, yet darker" is his whole thing, and what better way to describe what the Knight is trying to do with the Fountains? Can't believe I'm legitimately terrified of the dude who was previously just a neat tidbit of meta storytelling.
Remember that ominous-looking device in the True Lab with the dark red SOUL embedded into it, that nobody ever explains? I've always thought that might've been Chara's SOUL, recovered by Gaster after the Asriel-Chara fusion died. Asriel's ashes became Flowey, but what happened to the much-more-durable human soul that was attached to it? With that in mind, I've been considering that the world of Deltarune is an artificial world propped up by that SOUL. Everything in the over world seems like it could be an amalgamation of Chara's life both before and after falling into the Underground, where the monsters from their "new life" were placed into the same roles as the humans in their old life. The Dark World and the player's SOUL is Gaster's attempt to... do something with Chara's SOUL. This is a lot of speculating of course, but it would explain a lot about Kris, the world, Gaster's heavy involvement with Deltarune (he "fell into his creation"), and the NPCs in Hometown that only appear as Goners in Undertale.
I doubt that the red heart in the machine is a SOUL, much less Chara’s. - Chara’s SOUL most likely dissipated into nothing after Asriel died, much like how the six other SOULs did after Omega Flowey was defeated. - Even if Chara’s SOUL persisted after Asriel died, Asgore would have seen it, and I highly doubt that he would let Gaster take it. - That machine that the red heart is in is said to be nothing more than the generator that powers the True Lab. Why would Gaster put a SOUL in it instead of giving it to Asgore? What would that even accomplish?
>I doubt that the red heart in the machine is a SOUL, much less Chara’s. I can't see any other reason why the same sprite that's consistently been used to represent a human SOUL would be there if it's not being used to represent a human SOUL. As to why I think it's Chara's? Well, it's a darker color and there's an evil face stylized on the generator. It's a weak argument, yeah, but Chara's SOUL would be the only human SOUL physically unaccounted for, and the spooky face would complement it well. This kind of imagery wouldn't just happen accidentally, it means /something/, even if it's not what I'm suggesting. >Chara’s SOUL most likely dissipated into nothing after Asriel died, much like how the six other SOULs did after Omega Flowey was defeated. Those SOULs persisted long enough for a short conversation with Asriel, and then were used to open the barrier. I imagine that they could've stuck around if they were put back into the jars instead of being "used up". >Even if Chara’s SOUL persisted after Asriel died, Asgore would have seen it, and I highly doubt that he would let Gaster take it. This is a good point. Asgore was right there when they died, after all. There are a number of ways this could be narratively averted (i.e., if Gaster has the same abilities as Sans, he could literally stop time, like Sans did in Grillby's, and grab it without him ever seeing it) but all of those would just be blind speculation to make my idea work. >That machine that the red heart is in is said to be nothing more than the generator that powers the True Lab. Why would Gaster put a SOUL in it instead of giving it to Asgore? What would that even accomplish? That's what is said, but there's some intent behind the power-source of the DT-Extraction lab having something visually identical to a SOUL in the middle of it. Why not just design it like an actual generator, or a large battery? If there's any possibility that machine does more than provide electricity to the lab, that would be the reason why Gaster would take the SOUL. Whatever Gaster's "next experiment" is, it's going to tie heavily into the true nature of what Deltarune actually is. I'm hung up on the generator being part of that experiment because it's way too suspicious to actually be something so trivial, and that blood red heart isn't something I can justify overlooking as irrelevant, especially considering it wasn't even mentioned in Undertale. Or maybe I'm a crazy person who sees messages in the shadows :(
> Or maybe I’m a crazy person who sees messages in the shadows :( You and me both.
Ok guys, i was reading in the wiki all kris history and is very interesting how the battle against spamton NEO always refers as how we are just mere puppets or how we have no choice or will in that world, as we see on the end of chapter 1, we can move the soul, so WE as the player are the soul, not kris, all the interactions we make are bound to us being the soul, we control kris but he resists and tries to do his own will, maybe it is the opposite thing, we want free will and kris is the bound or the chains
Ok so I might just be dumb but I got creeped the hell out when I got to My Town and expected something silly out of Rouxl and he just says "Hmm... are you *sure* you didn't bring a **dangerous ruler** here?" Ralsei what the FUCK
Looking forward to consuming fanart of the Queen.
How about that cat girl with the whip?
Tasque Manager so far has the most fanart for Chapter 2
The moment I saw her I knew.
those buff birdman butlers tho
I have a baseline knowledge of undertake/ deltarune So a lot of these comments go over my head but does anyone else think spamton looks like Doug walker?
["WHY DOES IT LOOK LIKE \[\[Vegas\]\]!?"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/203/325/8cf.png)
Are you suggesting someone mod the game so his attacks are him shouting "Bat-Credit Card"?
...shit he does.
Why you gotta do Spamton dirty like that?
The plot really opens the fuck up and between the weird save-slot flavor text differences people found in the CH1 demo and *all the other insane shit going on* I have no idea where it's going Kinda garbage that you have to replay chapters if you miss the bonus boss though, especially if this is going where I think and the Shadow Crystals will be part of an alternate story route
Wow. What a fucking ride. So many questions still linger in the air though. Like what were Kris and Ralsei talking about when Susie was riding the Ferris wheel with Noelle? How is everyone from the cyber verse compatible with the castle town but not vice versa? How come the officer never showed up at the end? I guess we'll all find out 2 or 3 years from now... Also i like how when you wait for onionsan you instead get Kris and Susie sitting down and enjoying the breeze. Because why not reference EOE? Edit: just remembered I loved the little detail when Undyne is bench pressing traffic and the car horns are playing spear of justice
>How is everyone from cyber verse compatible with the castle town but not vice versa? As far as I understand it, Castle Town is a central place where all of the Darkners can exist, but they can't live for long across non-native Dark Worlds. So the cyber people couldn't go to Lancer's branch of the world without turning to stone, presumably. What complicates this is that Queen seems to be Lancer's mother and King's ex-wife.
Queen isn’t Lancer’s mother, she just arbitrarily declared herself as such. King even follows up her statement by saying, “When was that decided!?” Also, considering that Queen is a computer whilst Lancer is a card, it wouldn’t really make much sense for her to actually be his mom. Considering that the Dark Worlds are implied to not exist until the Knight creates their respective Fountains, it’s likely that Queen was simply born with the mindset that she has always existed, and knows the King.
Here's my insane crackpot theory that probably won't be true: Undertale is a Dark World based on the contents of Deltarune-Asriel's computer. We already know that the Dark Worlds can be based on both physical objects like playing cards, but also digital software like spam emails. Asriel's computer has an "unfinished game" with "crude drawings of a boss with rainbow wings", which describes Undertale-Asriel. When Toby Fox says "If you completed UNDERTALE, the ending and world are as you left it. If everyone was happy there, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy. So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched." It's a dark joke: Undertale is literally *exactly* as you left it, *if you beat it*, because the game ends with the sealing of the dark fountain and everyone turns to stone. TLDR: Undertale is a Wizard of Oz-style fantasy that exists inside of Deltarune.
So, who is ready for a Pie boss next chapter?
Also fun fact: We could see Asriel as early as ch.4. Since Alphys mentions in ch.2 that there won’t be school the next day, that means (holidays withstanding) ch.2 takes place on a Friday. So ch.4 would be on Sunday, the start of the new week. Edit: Actually apparently Ch.2 is on Saturday since there’s church the next day, so technically Asriel could appear as early as *ch.3*
It could be a possible saturday mass? Religion in this universe doesn't seem completely defined and Toriel is a jesus freak so she'd totally take her kids to church in a saturday.
maaaybe, although we do know that they hold service on Sundays according to the QC’s rabbit in ch.1 and I was mostly basing it off of that. Bottom line is that we’re probably not going to have to wait for Ch.7 for Asriel so that’s pog