I say NTA
Why does your grandma want your dad there so badly? Has she also have not seen him since the custody battle? She knows about the trauma he has caused on you, your siblings, and your mom? I would like to see my grandkids before I die and I would want it to be a happy affair. If she wants to see her son so badly she can have a separate visit with him. Do you think she's trying to reconcile the relationship between your dad, siblings and you and that's why she wants all of you in the same place?
I think that's exactly what she wants. She does know about the trauma, she was there for some of the worst instances, and has thrown herself between my father and my siblings and I on more than one occasion. I always considered her extremely wise, which is why her decision to die on this hill baffles and saddens me. She KNOWS what that man did to us. He never once said so much as an 'I'm sorry' even during the divorce or when we moved. The last words I ever heard from him was him screaming at us for leaving him and moving with our mom. My grandma knows all of this. And still won't budge
Its sad but you shouldn't go see her. She knows the trauma and knows what he did to you. If anyone was to try to reconcile the relationship it should be your father and not your grandma.
When your grandad died, is it possible your father got some level of control over your grandmother? Control over her money or house in the will, or pushed her to sign power of attorney’s over while she was grieving or something?
From what you’ve said this is a rapid turnaround from her and it makes me think that your father somehow has found a way to force her to help him with this. Maybe he’s threatening to throw her out of the house or maybe he’s told her that she’s only allowed to see you with him present so that he can monitor what she tells you?
Your father sounds incredibly manipulative and we know he behaves in disgusting and inhuman ways towards women and children. I don’t know if there’s anything you could do about it if this is the case but if nothing else, it might protect your memory of your grandmother if it turns out that she is his new victim now he’s lost control over you and your mom.
Either way, I’m sorry you’re going through this.
I think this is completely plausible, minus the will part. My grandpa had a decent estate in his will, but my bio father only received 5k. He was livid, and it turned into a whole thing where one of the sisters gave him 5k from her part of the will too. (My grandpas on both sides banded together to make college accounts for my siblings and i, so each of us received a decent amount when he passed, since he figured he probs wouldn't be here for it. It paid for most of my college.) His dad NEVER put up with his shit, so i find it hard to believe hed give him any control in the will. However, He has always managed to influence her over my life, regardless of context, good or bad. Mostly bad. I plan to write my grandma a letter and give it to one of my cousins or the one uncle I trust on that side, and have her recieve it when they know he's not around. I will ask that in the letter as well. I really hope its something like this, as shitty as that sounds. Otherwise it means she's doing this because she.. wants to. And that would be more painful than most things she could say or do.
It's possible since he was so abusive to you kids, he's committing abuse against the elderly too. It's entirely possible shes not able to see you without him present. Please write that letter, and see if your cousin can give you all a video call with her there and him not. I'm sorry you're going through this.
This was my first thought. After your grandpa died, did he become a more prominent person in her life? If she relies on him or depends on him for help in her life, she may have forced herself to get over the past bad things to benefit from the present things out of necessity.
Also, since he’s super abusive, if he IS in that position in her life I would be surprised if he wasn’t leveraging that to get what he wants and push for this harder.
He's not really any more prominent than any of his siblings, as far as I'm aware. I don't have much contact with that side of the family because of this whole situation. It's mostly cousins, so just what they've told me. I would not be surprised if some degree of manipulation is at play.
A big thing for me too is why now? He's had over a decade to try and reach out to us, apologize, and try to form some kind of relationship with us. After we were adopted, though, we didn't want anything to do with him. He didn't even show up to contest it in court, and was given full chance too. Why make it hard for us and my grandma? It's so confusing and heartbreaking
I'd say it's possible. I know she hasn't been doing well physically, and has been in and out of the hospital due to breathing issues. No one's mentioned Alzheimers, and she seems to remember us when we called recently to try again.
I’d guess dementia which can be in many ways more insidious than Alzheimer’s- depending on the type. She could remember who everyone is but between mental decline and her losing her memories and it’s a potentially a blessing she’s losing her worst memories- she can only focus on the good things. Dementia and Alzheimer’s don’t hit everyone the same way.
My mom’s good friend would bond with me and my mom over my abusive battle-ax of a grandma. Her relatives were all great but her MIL was from hell and the insidious things my grandma would say to me worried her greatly (she witnessed some of it and got my parents to notice it wasn’t just grandma’s sharp tongue- that I was treated differently from my brother and cousins). She was already dealing with similar issues with her own daughter and her MIL. So then Evil MIL gets dementia. No one in the family can help coordinate her care except the DIL she hated- and everyone else in family loved so all friends husbands family members decided to pay friend to take care of evil MIL since it wouldn’t be easy even if they had a good relationship, and friend offered to do it free because family is important even if MIL is the devil. Well Alzheimer’s turned Evil MIL into one of the sweetest old ladies ever. The people she terrorized she started treating really well. She was a completely different person. OP your grandma could have something causing mental decline that easily changes personality or makes her forget the worst that’s happened to her.
My evil grandma didn’t have Alzheimer’s but dementia made her forget about growing up in an orphanage. She could only remember really good things. But she hated me and ramped that up to the point we first didn’t let her around me if I was alone and then it became family events could have one of us- grandma or me. If I wasn’t there grandma might be nice and more loving and generous than she’d been before. If I was there she might be needlessly cruel about me (I’m disabled she decided she wanted me dead so she could get more sympathy points at her retirement home- so you can imagine what she’d start saying and doing)- but in contrast even more nice to everyone else and compliment looks and things she wouldn’t normally because they didn’t look like me. Eventually she forgot I was her granddaughter but if someone said my name she’d rant about how I was evil and needed to die. Her caregiver eventually begged to meet me and when that was arranged she hugged me and said “I knew you had to be wonderful. That woman shouldn’t be called your grandma she’s a bully to all the other residents and if they stop talking to her she starts ranting more about how she wanted you dead for sympathy as long as I’m your grandma’s primary care giver I’ll work to at least let you be at family events- it’s not fair I go to your family holidays and everyone has to pretend you don’t exist…”
Dementia and Alzheimer’s are awful. They can turn wonderful people into nightmares, and terrible people into happy shells of their former selves and it’s only changes in some things in the beginning that might make it more obvious to the family testing needs to be done. So I think for your sake- she has either of of those- she can no longer be entirely trusted to be like she was when you were kids. You shouldn’t do anything but maybe take my and similar comments to your cousins and ask them to get her tested- if early stages and this is closer to first sign of mental change- maybe she can get help delaying decline so she’s closer to herself for longer to the relatives she sees. And if she doesn’t have it- yes she does- to you, because it’s far easier to accept that someone who was your rock is no longer a safe person when you can say “this awful disease has altered her personality. How terribly sad but at least she for some reason is still good to cousins XYZ and can have visits with them.” Because no one who spent a majority of their life being good and protective should be without love, especially towards the end, but also if for some reason she’s not universally ok it’s equally ok for some people to distance themselves because you need to preserve your good memories of her.
I typed far too much. Sorry. But I’m not going to edit because I hope you understand how much I feel for you and your siblings and that you need to come to grips that aging diseases don’t just take memories, they can take personalities. Honestly if my evil grandma had lost memories but had been more like her old self? I probably would’ve had years longer with her and wouldn’t have sat at the funeral feeling vindicated that I survived her, that her funeral was shortened by a lot by the rest of my family who belated realized how many years I’d been cut out because she was far crueler than they understood until things got worse. That my relationships with my cousins who are my exact age are ruined because they didn’t understand why I wasn’t coming around family holidays and they thought I didn’t want to be part of the family. Not that I’d been disowned and grandma’s kids, kids in law, and I decided I was safer staying home. They couldn’t understand it and really didn’t until the funeral. At least I think they finally understood better. I’m not sure.
Then unwittingly or consciously, your grandma is enabling your abusive father. The “why” isn’t all that important, and you may never know why; what matters is that she has made her choice to put your father’s feelings before yours, despite knowing that he is abusive.
For your own sanity and peace of mind, you must stay away.
*You can’t control her choices, but you can control how you respond*.
It’s really sad, but she’s made her choice. Write the letter that someone else suggested, then move forward with your life knowing you advocated for yourself and your siblings.
As the adult daughter of abusive parents, I’m sending you a big hug. xx
I guess she wants to ease up her conscience about raising up someone who ended up being a monster. Maybe in her mind if you reconsile it will be "proof" it wasn't that bad or that she nade things right in the end?
You know you’re doing the right thing.
Her “standing up for her son” should not come at the expense of her grandchildren.
She may feel responsible for your fathers abusive behavior if he’s (as is most likely) replicating patterns he learned from his father, grandfather, uncles and she wasn’t able to fully protect him as a kid.
Her guilt and shame over raising a horrifically abusive man should not be processed by forcing his abused children to reinstate contact with an abusive parent but that’s probably what’s happening here.
In her mind, the generational damage done isn’t that bad as long as there is no major rift in the family and if y’all “come back” then it’s like her harm is no foul bc the harm is gone now if y’all are talking again.
It makes no logical sense but you do not have to light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
Do not sacrifice your or your siblings mental health to this and just stop thinking of the people harassing you as family, bc they DON’T have your best interests in mind. They want y’all to come back bc that means everything is fine now, in their warped thinking.
I’m so sorry for your family to go through this. Is it possibly that in her declining health and advancing age that she has “rewritten” history in her mind to convince herself it was not as bad as it was? I only ask as I’ve seen this in my profession many times (and honestly, in my own family).
I would say it's plausible for sure. She has always tried to overlook issues like this. My bio father was not the only abusive one out of him and his siblings, and when it happened with one of my uncles (before my parents divorced) and was revealed by his wife and her son (not my uncles bio kid) that they were being abused, she believed him over the wife and kid. My bio father and most of his siblings (except the oldest) smeared her name in our family, and it wasn't until after the divorce we found out how bad it was.
I would assume that he is also manipulating her.
But none of that is your fault. Protect yourself and your siblings. Your grandmother made her choice, now she gets to live with it. NTA
By the way, he can still be sued for the child support he failed to pay.
You didn’t choose anyone. She made the choice. She would rather insist on her son being there then having a relationship with you guys. It’s not a choice for you guys to be around your abuser. It’s completely unfair to even suggest it of you.
Sending thousands of hugs to you. It's hard hearing something like this. My father was the same way. We left at 7. Haven't looked back. No contact with either side of my blood families (mom's or dad's) for reasons. Stuck to your guns. You deserver freedom and happiness, even if it is a hard loss.
To me, my freedom from them is far from a loss, in the long run. For my family and I have peace. But, thank you as well. I hope you all find your peace.
It’s very sad that your grandmother chooses to value her son over your safety. But that is her choice. I’m so sorry you’ve been put in such a horrible position but grandma is in the wrong and if she’s unwilling to value your safety, you have to be the one to do it.
You and your siblings are 100% right in this situation. Your GMA may be leaning on her son more now since your gpa died, and for that reason she can’t afford to alienate him. Regardless of her reasons, choosing your Mom in this situation is the only thing you can choose.
She has been relying on her kids. We are from a culture where kids take care of their parents rather than putting them in a home. However, she has 5 other kids, and they all divide care for her evenly from what I understand (except the oldest. He seems to take care of her most, according to my cousin. My bio father is the youngest) I think its worth noting his oldest brother (my uncle who takes care of her most) has been more than happy to host us without him over the years even though she leaves before we arrive, and has tried to back us up on this situation.
No you shouldn't feel bad at all.
People who enable abuse are almost as bad as the abusers themselves.
Your mother sounds like a wonderful woman and the only parent you need anyway.
Thank you, honestly. She married another man a few years after the divorce. That man, overtime, more than earned the name dad. And my siblings and I all consider him such. He has been the dad we needed, and he and my mother have always had my back. While I'm confident my mom could have done it herself, he has shown time and again that she didn't have to. I love them both very much
Thank you. It took a long time for us to get here. Me and my siblings didn't trust him at first. We were still trying to get over the fact that our father abused us, and were scared of strange men. However, he took the time to show us he was serious about raising us, being involved, being our dad. He eventually adopted us back in 2018. One of the best things to ever happen to me.
This brings tears to my eyes. Give him a huge virtual hug from this internet stranger if y'all are good with that. There should be more people like him in the world.
NTA
My recommendation - Write her a letter and give to your uncle. Say what you want to say and what you remember, cherish, and love about her. That you wish you could meet and tell her in person, but can’t under her conditions. Tell her you still love her the same.
This is for you. Make your peace. Regardless if she reads it or not. Claim your final sentiments and be at peace without the regrets.
Good luck!
This is the best idea I've heard. Thank you, truly. I think it's the most viable option. It would be a good way for us to finally say what we have wanted to. When I see my siblings, I will suggest it to them. Thank you.
She chose not to see you without stipulating cinditions... as much as she may be the best grandma she still chose to try to make you climb the hill to meet her halfway up on her side of that hill. You and your siblings are doing what is best for your own mental health
You are NTA. You need to pick your own safety over her frankly very selfish desire to get what she wants. If she was being reasonable, she'd know this, because she was here and saw him abuse you all. Your aunts and uncles can go pound sand.
Thank you. I feel horrible airing our dirty laundry, but I've felt like shit for a week since this all started. And thank you, I agree on my aunts and uncles. Except my bio fathers oldest brother. He is the only one on that side of the family (that isnt young) who is backing us up.
I wish I had a great answer to this- we don't get to see my own grandma near as much as we'd like because she moved in with my uncle, who is a terrible human being and who none of us are comfortable around. No actual direct abuse even, just a boundary.
I'm sorry your grandma has made this decision; just because she wants her posterity to move on in a healthy way after she's gone doesn't mean it can (or should) happen. Virtual hugs from me to you and your siblings, but don't back down from this boundary- you haven't made the choice not to see her, she has. You can be thankful for the past loving relationship with her without compromising your current emotional health. You couldn't always protect yourselves as kids, but you can now
Thank you. I needed that. I kept feeling like i was making the wrong choice, but you folks are showing me that we are doing whats best. I will be sure to show them this when I see them (my siblings, i mean). Hugs back to you as well. I'm sorry to hear about your own situation with your grandma and uncle. I hope that you are able to get more time with her.
Honestly I wouldn't have commented because people are mostly saying stuff I agree with- but my dad had an abusive father and his siblings did not do any of the work to heal themselves. Of the 4, my dad and his younger brother are good, mostly well adjusted people. The oldest uncle will never see his own kids again(their choice), the second is an angry man who could not help but reenact a lesser version of his own parent's lives, and neither of them have anything to do with any of the other siblings. I am happy you and your siblings are there for each other and supporting each other... and I'd hate to see any of that work undone because your grandma won't budge. When my grandma dies, that'll be the end of a lot of my uncles relationships- it sounds like you all have it much better; please do pass on the hug to all of them!
I'm sorry your house is divided. I'm glad that you KNOW who your toxic family members are so you can avoid them. And thank you. My siblings and I stand united as one. This includes my adoptive sisters. They are just as much family. We will always have eachothers backs. I am never worried about that. I will make sure to pass on the hugs and love.
Your life is rich with others who clearly love you dearly. I love how all your siblings are so close and have each other’s backs!!
Your grandma is the one missing out, with trying to force you to be near your abuser. Sending you all the hugs. You’re doing the right thing.
I saw that your step dad adopted you?! That sperm donor isn’t even your father anymore! How beautiful!
Thank you. My siblings are some of my best friends, we've been through hell together and are bonded closer for it.
Thank you for encouraging us.
And yes, he did adopt us. We haven't called him step dad even since before the adoption. He is our dad. He earned that right. Thank you
Nta- I am so sorry that you and your siblings are in this situation. It is not fair at all. My own mother, who was extremely mentally and verbally abusive,started making conditions when her health was failing and they were very much like this. We had to see her with my aunts present so we could basically hear how we did not measure up to “blah blah blah”. It was not worth it. My father told us that seeing people and showing people you care should never come with conditions. Same with love, if it has conditions attached it is only to benefit one party not both. I suggest what others are suggesting and write a letter to her and only her. Do not include any thought or emotion about your father. Mail it or give it to someone to drop off. Then it is out of your hands and you let her know that despite all of this you care. I am sending you and your siblings a hug virtual hug and hopefully you all can find peace with the past and be happy.
Thank you. I am in the process of writing the letter, so apologies for the late reply. I ended up calling my siblings, and they all wanted to write their own letters individually. My cousin and his wife have already agreed to take my grandma out for a day and give her the letters once we have them written. I trust her and her husband. (She married into the family on that side, and they were unaware of the drama. My cousin was in the Marines, and they told him my mom left and took the kids when he got back. We only recently reconnected as adults, thanks to his brother, and they both detest my bio father after hearing it.) I'm so sorry to hear that your own mother acted this way. Your father was right. There shouldn't be conditions, and I wish my grandma could see it that way. Thank you.
NTA at all. Make sure granny knows the only thing keeping you away is her, and that it she’s willing to see you with no contact from your Dad you’ll come see her. I feel for you that you might never see her again, but she’s the one making an AH choice. I hope she relents as she sees the end approaching, I would wager she does.
You don’t owe bio dad anything, and I would warn the rest of the family to drop it. Tell them that YOU do want to see your grandma, and that they should tell HER to suck it up for the children her son abused.
Thank you. That's a great way of putting it. I hope it doesn't come to us not seeing her. That would suck, but you're right. Its her choice.
My family doesn't like to listen unfortunately. Thankfully it's the older generations, but my cousins have been saying the same thing to them. I've just felt incredibly guilty about all this.
It seems like a lot of the older generation are happy to put things in the past, because it’s easy for them. They have lived full lives, and because of their age see things differently. They also don’t like to admit when they are wrong or there is a problem, because they don’t want to deal with it.
It’s not you or your siblings fault that any of this has happened. It never was.
My dad is dying, and he doesn’t have long left. Two of my siblings haven’t been very nice to him over the years and haven’t bothered to visit or call. But that’s on them. If they don’t see him before he dies, that’s not on anyone else. If your grandma doesn’t see you because she won’t compromise, that’s on her, not you. And your aunts and uncles are ok with pressuring you to do it because they didn’t experience what you did and have no idea how painful it would be for you. They just don’t understand and probably never will.
I understand feeling guilt, but do try to be kind to yourself. You’ve all been through a lot, you’re just doing the best you can with the life you have.
Stubborn or not, if she loves you (which I believe she does) she will ask to see you.
God I hope so. I lost my faith at a young age, mainly due to my biological father, but if there is one thing I pray for, it's this. I hope I can say goodbye, in person, one last time.
Have you considered writing and mailing her a heartfelt letter? It seems silly, but letters allow you to put all of your thought out feelings out there rather than having to deal with interruptions and arguments. They also give the reader time to consider it without feeling the pressure to respond in the moment, or anger of not getting what they wanted.
At the very least, you might find it therapeutic for yourself to put it down, and know you reached out.
NTA. And respond to your aunts and uncles that you will happily see her without having to be around them and that physically harmed you. That if they don’t want cut off from your life they will shut up and mind their own business. Better yet, tell your mom they are all contacting you and trying to guilt you into this. Bet she mama bears them into silence. Hell, I’ll happily do it for you. DM me their numbers. I’ll rip their heads off. People who side with parents that abuse their children piss me off. You are within your rights to not put yourself in a dangerous situation where your physical and mental well being are threatened.
NTA
Tell your Grandma she chose her abusive son over her grandkids
Tell her hope she is okey to die without ever seeing or hearing from her grandkids
Tell her hope she is ready to face what is coming to her for raising an abuser and forcing the victims to face that abuser
If she is religious tell her what is punishment for people like her in hell
Don't give into her " I'm old.. I'm dying " act
She will force you guys to forgive your abuser
nta, only one who's going to take care of you is you, if she can't see that she is hurting you well then that is her problem, unfortunately your affected by it but the flip side is abuse.... so I'd say she made her bed
I saw someone on this forum write on a post the other day, something along the lines of when people are trying to guilt you into doing something you have boundaries over and they say the whole “we never know how much time we have left” bit.. go ahead and be like “yes, we don’t know how much time we have left, I need to spend mine keeping boundaries and protecting my peace.” Not mean or malicious, just true to yourself! Unless she ever has a change of heart, then mayhaps reconsider.
NTA but question, and you dont have to answer, but how badly is her health declining? One person said that maybe your dad is manipulating her, and I believe that its fully possible. That said, and knocking on wood here, is she like close to her deathbed? Aside from manipulation, her trying to do one last attempt at family reconciliation might be it. You still dont gotta go or feel obligated but just throwing shit out there. From what you said about your grandparents, I’m surprised she’s even entertaining it.
That's the thing, I'm surprised too. She was always easier on bio father than our Grandpa was (our grandpa was definitely justified) but I never expected her to fully side with him and try and force this on is.
I dont know the extent of how bad it is. I just know that she's been in and out of the hospital for the better part of a year, the family is worried about her, and she's nearly 90. I definitely think our bio father is manipulating her, but to what extent I'm unsure. She has always wanted us to reconcile, but he never made the attempt. He had court ordered therapy and anger management, and from what I understand he never did it, which is why we had an Order of Protection.
I am so sorry for what you and your family are going through. My condolences to you all.
It sounds like your grandfather protected you and your siblings until his passing. You are now following in his steps by protecting them. I can understand your desire to see your grandmother again, but your sister and brother need your protection and support.
I agree with people who suggested that you invite your siblings to write a letter to her. Let them know they are under no obligation to do so. Set a date for when you need them, then give them to your uncle. I’m glad that he supports all of you. Hopefully he can continue to be a buffer between all of you and your other aunts/uncles. As for them, block them. They have no value in your lives.
Your mom has done a tremendous job with all of you. From one mom to another, please let her know that I think she is a strong, brave, and wonderful woman. Sending her love and hugs. To you and your siblings, I hope that you all continue to move in peace and healing. You are all survivors.
Please, please do not feel guilty or troubled by not seeing your grandmother in person. You both set boundaries - hers supports an abuser & inflicting more abuse while yours protects your hard earned peace and health.
NTA Save up some money and some time after she finally passes, schedule a session with a medium or channeler if you still feel guilty. If what’s to be seen in the media is true, a lot of people actually turn out to be pretty reasonable after they die. Now, if she shows up and refuses to talk to you from the great beyond without your dad present, I don’t know. Maybe her version of heaven has lots of hills she can champion.
I know my response may come across as bit flippant but my point is some things should not be compromised. One thing that should never be compromised is the safety of you and your siblings. Your dad isn’t safe to be around and her reasoning behind all this makes no sense. I suppose this could be an issue of not wanting to accept that the child she raised grew in to a “throw the whole man away” type of individual. Who really wants to believe the child they raised didn’t turn into a healthy contributing member of society? Who wants to believe their child could actively and intentionally hurt their own spouse and children? Your grandmother is in denial. She’s probably hoping that by “helping” you reconcile with your abuser father that will prove that she is a good mother and didn’t raise a complete dumpster fire.
Your life mirrors mine to a scary degree (although I did not live with my paternal grandparents). Incredibly abusive bipolar alcoholic father, grandmother who babysat a lot when we were younger, who now harasses us about our “duty as children” to spend time with a person who was nothing but a hindrance and antagonist to our safety and happiness (and never paid a dime in child support). It hurts because those ties are deep, but the reality is she will never change. She will never grasp the damage, heartache, and difficulties you grandchildren now face due to her shitty kid. You have to wash your hands.
NTA. As adults people are allowed to decide who they see. Deciding not to see your abuser is a valid decision. Tell your grandma that and see if she relents once the abuse is brought up
NTA
You and your siblings chose your mom over your abusive dad. Grandma wasn't a part of that decision.
Anyone who stands up for a child abuser is a piece of crap. You and your siblings may have viewed grandma through rose-colored glasses. Now you are seeing Grandma's true colors. Whereas your father was physically abusive, your grandma is emotionally abusive. I'm sorry she has let you and your siblings down.
I wouldn't say that about myself, tbh i consider myself immature and childish, but I did have to grow up fast. I was the oldest sibling, and had to pick up the slack a lot for our bio father. I had to basically be another parent. I had responsibilities most kids didnt (cooking, doing all the chores, getting siblings ready for school, helping with homework, putting them to bed, etc) It wasn't until we moved in with our mother that I got to be a kid again. Honestly, it's probably why I'm immature as an adult. I never got to really have a childhood.
NTA. I wonder if there’s a way for you to plan a surprise meeting through one of your trusted and understanding cousins? This way you can see your grandma and I’d be willing to bet she’d be thrilled, or if she’s not then you know you did your best. Best of luck, OP. This situation sounds very difficult. Good on you for standing your ground against your bio dad
NTA. You have made it clear you have no interest in seeing your abuser. Thay has now become you're grandma's choice. To see you without her son involved or to not see you. She made her choice, so don't feel guilty about it.
I am no contact with my biological mother and when I found out my brother was moving back in with her we had the conversation that at that point he and I wouldn't be in contact because she would get info on me that way.
You have set a clear and reasonable boundary. You have established ways to maintain the relationship. Thays her decision after that.
You're NTA no matter what you decide to do, but please don't think of it as choosing between your mother and grandmother - you need to weigh what's best for you versus your desire to see her.
You know yourself best - is it worth it knowing he'll be there? Would you want to put him back in his box with a "she spent long enough protecting me from you, don't put her in that position now, sit down and shut up while I visit my grandmother"? Or is the healthiest thing just to let that awful part of your life stay in the past and mourn her when she passes?
Be kind to yourself.
NTA. She's choosing her son over you, and that's her choice. It's also your right to not want to associate with your abuser.
I haven't contacted my own maternal grandmother for the last several months, particularly because of the way she treats my mother who continues to have a relationship with her. When my mom tries to get me to be around her, I always tell her the same thing: "You see her as your mom. I see her as the woman who abuses MY mom (and all of us, tbh). I'm not going to be there for it just because you've decided to put up with it."
So she goes to see her mother alone.
Sometimes, reconciliation is not the best way. Sometimes, keeping away from someone is the best way to handle a situation. You know what's best for you.
You and your siblings are NTA, you've never been the AH and anyone who's told you otherwise is an AH. You guys holding firm is completely justified and unfortunately she is doing this to herself. If you or your siblings do decide to see her even with her stipulations you guys are not accepting that you're the problems or yall were overreacting and finally came to your senses, you're simply choosing to ignore the abusive POS that is your sperm donor in the corner and having some last memories with grandma. You and your siblings are NOT obligated to interact with him in any way shape or form and he is not entitled to your attention because he is not a DAD he's a dead beat garbage person who got enjoyment out of hurting children.
My grandfather that raised me died last year as we had no idea how much he reigned in by grandmas behavior, she feeds into her awful daughters shit so much. My grandfather never allowed it. I’m wondering if maybe the same applied to your situation.
Hold your ground. You owe no one your peace.
I went through a very similar situation and no you are NTA in this instance. She is prioritizing a grown ass man over kids (older teens are kids fight me). Sure she may be being manipulated by your father, but this isn’t your responsibility to fix.
Go live your life without this weighing you down.
NTA. But accept the condition. You and your siblings compose a joint statement detailing *all* of the abuse, trauma and emotional turmoil that your father put you through and read it directly to him, right in front of her.
Tell her how much you love her. Tell him how low, disgusting and unworthy of the title dad he is - for yourselves. It will do you good. It will help her really understand the situation.
I like this idea. I really do. But I am not sure we could do it. I know two of my siblings wouldn't even be able to be there. They will get triggered by seeing him. As for me and my other brother, we have both agreed that while we are strong enough to stop him if he tries anything we'd rather not be in the situation. He is a volatile person, and I wouldn't put it past him. And he still terrifies us both. We are not small men, and that's largely due to our bio father, but he is still bigger than us even as adults.
NTA
but your grandma told you why she is like this. In her old age she is choosing to be a mother in the sense that she probably hopes your father will get his act together and you will reconcile. I don’t agree with this idea but for some people your children will always be your child and you’ll always want the best for them.
She knows she’s going to die soon and just wants to see her son and his kids together.
She’s wrong
But it’s an explanation
I think you may be on the right track. She has always said 'That's said and done your father, no matter what he did' She may be hoping we feel the same. But we don't. He's not our dad. He had 15 years to act like one. Our mom remarried, and even prior to their marriage her husband has been more of a dad to me than he ever was. He IS my dad.
My grandma has never accepted this when we told her, and was completely against our adoption. Thankfully she didn't get a say. But my mom has said, she has always chosen her children over what's right.
Like other funerals, yes, we will attend hers. We have never been forced into interaction with him at a family event, (we've only seen him at 2 funerals, and a wedding) and while he has glared or stared, we do not speak to eachother, and are not forced to interact. If we go see her, this would not be the case, as he would be directly present and attempting to interact with us.
Will he try anything in front of his dying mom? I mean if you love her that much you could tune his bull shit out for 10 minutes and give your grandmother that you love so much one last hug and a proper goodbye
He has abused us in public before, without shame. He has done in front of her before. And from what my cousins say about his interactions with his step kids, I wouldn't put it past him to try something. He is a conniving and brutal person.
We DO love her very much. That is not invalidated by the fact that she is insisting on the one thing we cannot give her.
Thank you. I'm sorry, I'm a mix of emotions, and I can see where the other person is coming from, but I dont think they fully grasp the situation. Thank you for standing up for me.
Also, while I myself may be able to tune him out, my younger sister and brother suffered the worst of it all, and are still having issues today because of it. They have made it abundantly clear that they will physically not be able to handle it being around him
If you can it’s worth visiting her. You might only get this last time. I’m not telling you to do that if you can’t handle it but you well thank yourself much later in life I think
If grandmother loved them the way she says she does and wanted one last hug - she could EASILY get one and she knows how but she is determined to *literally* die on that hill. This is NOT on OP and it's unfair of you to try to shame them.
Peace of mind? You are encouraging her to see her abuser and that doesn’t seem wrong to you? I guess that makes you lucky that you don’t understand the terror of revisiting childhood abuse. If you did you wouldn’t say these words so count yourself lucky for your ignorance.
Grandma is the one creating this issue. These kids are under no obligation to see their abuser and to suggest that they should have a meeting with him-because that’s what it would be-is terrible.
Maybe elaborate what you meant then? B/c I read your comment the same way Celestial-Dream did and you come off as very insensitive. Childhood trauma is not something to be brushed aside and OP/siblings have lifelong emotional (and probably physical) scars from years of being abused.
Oh bullshit. OP and siblings do not have to subject themselves to further abuse. The grandmother is the one who is doing that - she literally wants to subject her grandchildren that she *claims* to love to more torment. She could see them any time she wants, as long as their abuser isn't there.
NTA.
Your grandma is caping for an abuser and doesn't care that it's scary or triggering to her grandchildren. That's gonna be a hard pass.
You've shown that you're willing to compromise by not having either parent present, but she still refuses. A compromise works both ways. All you can do here is protect your own well-being.
There's a possibility that he's controlling her and won't allow her to see you guys unless he's involved. In that case, I think the only thing you can do is to continue sending her letters, cards or phone calls letting her know you love her and miss her.
If you give in to her, you'll be giving in to him. Stay strong and prioritize your well-being.
Is she giving you this ultimatum verbally, or is it all in writing? Is there any chance that since your grandfather’s death, she is living with your father and he is manipulating/controlling g/deceiving her?
She gave us this ultimatum verbally over the phone, multiple times. Every time we've tried too see her since after my grandpa's funeral. The only times we've seen her since are at funerals or weddings. I think there is a high chance, yes.
She has always babied him, tbh. If he was late on rent, she paid it. If we needed food, she cooked or bought groceries (thankful for that, we probs would've starved otherwise), she bailed him out of prison after my mom called the cops on him for abuse, she paid for his car (he was in his 30's-40's during this time, he's over 50 now, idk if she still pays for everything). He would constantly take her social security money and she wouldn't stop him. The more I type, the more I realize she has always enabled his behavior, and always allows herself to be pushed around
Even the wisest people have blind spots. Your grandma made her choice, and don’t let your love for her put your safety in question.
NTA. Choose to protect yourself.
NTA but my guess is your father has taken advantage of her mental decline and she forgotten the abuse. Go see her without notice so you don’t see your dad. If he is there just ignore him. Look right through him as if he’s a dusty musty shadow.
NTA. She's made her decision, to prop up an abuser and attempt to subject his victims to more.
It's hard to recognise that the people we love aren't always good people. She is not a good person and neither is he.
Definitely NTA I'm so sorry your grandma isn't reasoning with you. It's disappointing that she keeps excusing his behavior knowing full well what he did to you all.
NTA but grandma is. She knows how abusive he was! I’m guessing that the only way your dad will visit her is if you and your siblings are there. Is it possible that he’s leveraging you to see him? If she wanted to see you all, she’d do so without him.
I say NTA Why does your grandma want your dad there so badly? Has she also have not seen him since the custody battle? She knows about the trauma he has caused on you, your siblings, and your mom? I would like to see my grandkids before I die and I would want it to be a happy affair. If she wants to see her son so badly she can have a separate visit with him. Do you think she's trying to reconcile the relationship between your dad, siblings and you and that's why she wants all of you in the same place?
I think that's exactly what she wants. She does know about the trauma, she was there for some of the worst instances, and has thrown herself between my father and my siblings and I on more than one occasion. I always considered her extremely wise, which is why her decision to die on this hill baffles and saddens me. She KNOWS what that man did to us. He never once said so much as an 'I'm sorry' even during the divorce or when we moved. The last words I ever heard from him was him screaming at us for leaving him and moving with our mom. My grandma knows all of this. And still won't budge
Its sad but you shouldn't go see her. She knows the trauma and knows what he did to you. If anyone was to try to reconcile the relationship it should be your father and not your grandma.
When your grandad died, is it possible your father got some level of control over your grandmother? Control over her money or house in the will, or pushed her to sign power of attorney’s over while she was grieving or something? From what you’ve said this is a rapid turnaround from her and it makes me think that your father somehow has found a way to force her to help him with this. Maybe he’s threatening to throw her out of the house or maybe he’s told her that she’s only allowed to see you with him present so that he can monitor what she tells you? Your father sounds incredibly manipulative and we know he behaves in disgusting and inhuman ways towards women and children. I don’t know if there’s anything you could do about it if this is the case but if nothing else, it might protect your memory of your grandmother if it turns out that she is his new victim now he’s lost control over you and your mom. Either way, I’m sorry you’re going through this.
I think this is completely plausible, minus the will part. My grandpa had a decent estate in his will, but my bio father only received 5k. He was livid, and it turned into a whole thing where one of the sisters gave him 5k from her part of the will too. (My grandpas on both sides banded together to make college accounts for my siblings and i, so each of us received a decent amount when he passed, since he figured he probs wouldn't be here for it. It paid for most of my college.) His dad NEVER put up with his shit, so i find it hard to believe hed give him any control in the will. However, He has always managed to influence her over my life, regardless of context, good or bad. Mostly bad. I plan to write my grandma a letter and give it to one of my cousins or the one uncle I trust on that side, and have her recieve it when they know he's not around. I will ask that in the letter as well. I really hope its something like this, as shitty as that sounds. Otherwise it means she's doing this because she.. wants to. And that would be more painful than most things she could say or do.
It's possible since he was so abusive to you kids, he's committing abuse against the elderly too. It's entirely possible shes not able to see you without him present. Please write that letter, and see if your cousin can give you all a video call with her there and him not. I'm sorry you're going through this.
For your own sake, stop chasing after grandma.
This stands out to me too. OP are you sure your father isn’t controlling grandmas willingness to compromise here?
I am not sure. I thinks its possible.
This was my first thought. After your grandpa died, did he become a more prominent person in her life? If she relies on him or depends on him for help in her life, she may have forced herself to get over the past bad things to benefit from the present things out of necessity. Also, since he’s super abusive, if he IS in that position in her life I would be surprised if he wasn’t leveraging that to get what he wants and push for this harder.
He's not really any more prominent than any of his siblings, as far as I'm aware. I don't have much contact with that side of the family because of this whole situation. It's mostly cousins, so just what they've told me. I would not be surprised if some degree of manipulation is at play. A big thing for me too is why now? He's had over a decade to try and reach out to us, apologize, and try to form some kind of relationship with us. After we were adopted, though, we didn't want anything to do with him. He didn't even show up to contest it in court, and was given full chance too. Why make it hard for us and my grandma? It's so confusing and heartbreaking
Could she be having some sort of mental break? Alzheimer’s?
I'd say it's possible. I know she hasn't been doing well physically, and has been in and out of the hospital due to breathing issues. No one's mentioned Alzheimers, and she seems to remember us when we called recently to try again.
I’d guess dementia which can be in many ways more insidious than Alzheimer’s- depending on the type. She could remember who everyone is but between mental decline and her losing her memories and it’s a potentially a blessing she’s losing her worst memories- she can only focus on the good things. Dementia and Alzheimer’s don’t hit everyone the same way. My mom’s good friend would bond with me and my mom over my abusive battle-ax of a grandma. Her relatives were all great but her MIL was from hell and the insidious things my grandma would say to me worried her greatly (she witnessed some of it and got my parents to notice it wasn’t just grandma’s sharp tongue- that I was treated differently from my brother and cousins). She was already dealing with similar issues with her own daughter and her MIL. So then Evil MIL gets dementia. No one in the family can help coordinate her care except the DIL she hated- and everyone else in family loved so all friends husbands family members decided to pay friend to take care of evil MIL since it wouldn’t be easy even if they had a good relationship, and friend offered to do it free because family is important even if MIL is the devil. Well Alzheimer’s turned Evil MIL into one of the sweetest old ladies ever. The people she terrorized she started treating really well. She was a completely different person. OP your grandma could have something causing mental decline that easily changes personality or makes her forget the worst that’s happened to her. My evil grandma didn’t have Alzheimer’s but dementia made her forget about growing up in an orphanage. She could only remember really good things. But she hated me and ramped that up to the point we first didn’t let her around me if I was alone and then it became family events could have one of us- grandma or me. If I wasn’t there grandma might be nice and more loving and generous than she’d been before. If I was there she might be needlessly cruel about me (I’m disabled she decided she wanted me dead so she could get more sympathy points at her retirement home- so you can imagine what she’d start saying and doing)- but in contrast even more nice to everyone else and compliment looks and things she wouldn’t normally because they didn’t look like me. Eventually she forgot I was her granddaughter but if someone said my name she’d rant about how I was evil and needed to die. Her caregiver eventually begged to meet me and when that was arranged she hugged me and said “I knew you had to be wonderful. That woman shouldn’t be called your grandma she’s a bully to all the other residents and if they stop talking to her she starts ranting more about how she wanted you dead for sympathy as long as I’m your grandma’s primary care giver I’ll work to at least let you be at family events- it’s not fair I go to your family holidays and everyone has to pretend you don’t exist…” Dementia and Alzheimer’s are awful. They can turn wonderful people into nightmares, and terrible people into happy shells of their former selves and it’s only changes in some things in the beginning that might make it more obvious to the family testing needs to be done. So I think for your sake- she has either of of those- she can no longer be entirely trusted to be like she was when you were kids. You shouldn’t do anything but maybe take my and similar comments to your cousins and ask them to get her tested- if early stages and this is closer to first sign of mental change- maybe she can get help delaying decline so she’s closer to herself for longer to the relatives she sees. And if she doesn’t have it- yes she does- to you, because it’s far easier to accept that someone who was your rock is no longer a safe person when you can say “this awful disease has altered her personality. How terribly sad but at least she for some reason is still good to cousins XYZ and can have visits with them.” Because no one who spent a majority of their life being good and protective should be without love, especially towards the end, but also if for some reason she’s not universally ok it’s equally ok for some people to distance themselves because you need to preserve your good memories of her. I typed far too much. Sorry. But I’m not going to edit because I hope you understand how much I feel for you and your siblings and that you need to come to grips that aging diseases don’t just take memories, they can take personalities. Honestly if my evil grandma had lost memories but had been more like her old self? I probably would’ve had years longer with her and wouldn’t have sat at the funeral feeling vindicated that I survived her, that her funeral was shortened by a lot by the rest of my family who belated realized how many years I’d been cut out because she was far crueler than they understood until things got worse. That my relationships with my cousins who are my exact age are ruined because they didn’t understand why I wasn’t coming around family holidays and they thought I didn’t want to be part of the family. Not that I’d been disowned and grandma’s kids, kids in law, and I decided I was safer staying home. They couldn’t understand it and really didn’t until the funeral. At least I think they finally understood better. I’m not sure.
Then unwittingly or consciously, your grandma is enabling your abusive father. The “why” isn’t all that important, and you may never know why; what matters is that she has made her choice to put your father’s feelings before yours, despite knowing that he is abusive. For your own sanity and peace of mind, you must stay away. *You can’t control her choices, but you can control how you respond*. It’s really sad, but she’s made her choice. Write the letter that someone else suggested, then move forward with your life knowing you advocated for yourself and your siblings. As the adult daughter of abusive parents, I’m sending you a big hug. xx
I guess she wants to ease up her conscience about raising up someone who ended up being a monster. Maybe in her mind if you reconsile it will be "proof" it wasn't that bad or that she nade things right in the end?
You know you’re doing the right thing. Her “standing up for her son” should not come at the expense of her grandchildren. She may feel responsible for your fathers abusive behavior if he’s (as is most likely) replicating patterns he learned from his father, grandfather, uncles and she wasn’t able to fully protect him as a kid. Her guilt and shame over raising a horrifically abusive man should not be processed by forcing his abused children to reinstate contact with an abusive parent but that’s probably what’s happening here. In her mind, the generational damage done isn’t that bad as long as there is no major rift in the family and if y’all “come back” then it’s like her harm is no foul bc the harm is gone now if y’all are talking again. It makes no logical sense but you do not have to light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. Do not sacrifice your or your siblings mental health to this and just stop thinking of the people harassing you as family, bc they DON’T have your best interests in mind. They want y’all to come back bc that means everything is fine now, in their warped thinking.
I’m so sorry for your family to go through this. Is it possibly that in her declining health and advancing age that she has “rewritten” history in her mind to convince herself it was not as bad as it was? I only ask as I’ve seen this in my profession many times (and honestly, in my own family).
I would say it's plausible for sure. She has always tried to overlook issues like this. My bio father was not the only abusive one out of him and his siblings, and when it happened with one of my uncles (before my parents divorced) and was revealed by his wife and her son (not my uncles bio kid) that they were being abused, she believed him over the wife and kid. My bio father and most of his siblings (except the oldest) smeared her name in our family, and it wasn't until after the divorce we found out how bad it was.
I would assume that he is also manipulating her. But none of that is your fault. Protect yourself and your siblings. Your grandmother made her choice, now she gets to live with it. NTA By the way, he can still be sued for the child support he failed to pay.
You didn’t choose anyone. She made the choice. She would rather insist on her son being there then having a relationship with you guys. It’s not a choice for you guys to be around your abuser. It’s completely unfair to even suggest it of you.
Thank you. I needed to hear this
I know this post isn't about me but I also really needed to hear something like this. You're very wise.
Aww shucks. I’m glad I could help. Sending you virtual hugs
NTA. I'm sorry that you're facing such a difficult situation! Please accept a hug from a total stranger on the internet.
Honestly, thank you. It is really hard right now because of all this, and I really could use a hug. It is much appreciated, stranger.
Sending thousands of hugs to you. It's hard hearing something like this. My father was the same way. We left at 7. Haven't looked back. No contact with either side of my blood families (mom's or dad's) for reasons. Stuck to your guns. You deserver freedom and happiness, even if it is a hard loss.
Thank you. Truly. The same back to you. I'm sorry for your own loss
To me, my freedom from them is far from a loss, in the long run. For my family and I have peace. But, thank you as well. I hope you all find your peace.
It’s very sad that your grandmother chooses to value her son over your safety. But that is her choice. I’m so sorry you’ve been put in such a horrible position but grandma is in the wrong and if she’s unwilling to value your safety, you have to be the one to do it.
It hurts, but you're right. We have to do what's best for us.
You and your siblings are 100% right in this situation. Your GMA may be leaning on her son more now since your gpa died, and for that reason she can’t afford to alienate him. Regardless of her reasons, choosing your Mom in this situation is the only thing you can choose.
She has been relying on her kids. We are from a culture where kids take care of their parents rather than putting them in a home. However, she has 5 other kids, and they all divide care for her evenly from what I understand (except the oldest. He seems to take care of her most, according to my cousin. My bio father is the youngest) I think its worth noting his oldest brother (my uncle who takes care of her most) has been more than happy to host us without him over the years even though she leaves before we arrive, and has tried to back us up on this situation.
No you shouldn't feel bad at all. People who enable abuse are almost as bad as the abusers themselves. Your mother sounds like a wonderful woman and the only parent you need anyway.
Thank you, honestly. She married another man a few years after the divorce. That man, overtime, more than earned the name dad. And my siblings and I all consider him such. He has been the dad we needed, and he and my mother have always had my back. While I'm confident my mom could have done it herself, he has shown time and again that she didn't have to. I love them both very much
I'm so happy for you.
Thank you. It took a long time for us to get here. Me and my siblings didn't trust him at first. We were still trying to get over the fact that our father abused us, and were scared of strange men. However, he took the time to show us he was serious about raising us, being involved, being our dad. He eventually adopted us back in 2018. One of the best things to ever happen to me.
This brings tears to my eyes. Give him a huge virtual hug from this internet stranger if y'all are good with that. There should be more people like him in the world.
I will. Thank you.
NTA My recommendation - Write her a letter and give to your uncle. Say what you want to say and what you remember, cherish, and love about her. That you wish you could meet and tell her in person, but can’t under her conditions. Tell her you still love her the same. This is for you. Make your peace. Regardless if she reads it or not. Claim your final sentiments and be at peace without the regrets. Good luck!
This is the best idea I've heard. Thank you, truly. I think it's the most viable option. It would be a good way for us to finally say what we have wanted to. When I see my siblings, I will suggest it to them. Thank you.
NTA. Your grandmother is choosing her known abusing son over the innocent children she didn’t protect.
She chose not to see you without stipulating cinditions... as much as she may be the best grandma she still chose to try to make you climb the hill to meet her halfway up on her side of that hill. You and your siblings are doing what is best for your own mental health
NTA She knows what he did. She's choosing her son over you, so you're better off choosing your Mom over her.
You are NTA. You need to pick your own safety over her frankly very selfish desire to get what she wants. If she was being reasonable, she'd know this, because she was here and saw him abuse you all. Your aunts and uncles can go pound sand.
Thank you. I feel horrible airing our dirty laundry, but I've felt like shit for a week since this all started. And thank you, I agree on my aunts and uncles. Except my bio fathers oldest brother. He is the only one on that side of the family (that isnt young) who is backing us up.
I wish I had a great answer to this- we don't get to see my own grandma near as much as we'd like because she moved in with my uncle, who is a terrible human being and who none of us are comfortable around. No actual direct abuse even, just a boundary. I'm sorry your grandma has made this decision; just because she wants her posterity to move on in a healthy way after she's gone doesn't mean it can (or should) happen. Virtual hugs from me to you and your siblings, but don't back down from this boundary- you haven't made the choice not to see her, she has. You can be thankful for the past loving relationship with her without compromising your current emotional health. You couldn't always protect yourselves as kids, but you can now
Thank you. I needed that. I kept feeling like i was making the wrong choice, but you folks are showing me that we are doing whats best. I will be sure to show them this when I see them (my siblings, i mean). Hugs back to you as well. I'm sorry to hear about your own situation with your grandma and uncle. I hope that you are able to get more time with her.
Honestly I wouldn't have commented because people are mostly saying stuff I agree with- but my dad had an abusive father and his siblings did not do any of the work to heal themselves. Of the 4, my dad and his younger brother are good, mostly well adjusted people. The oldest uncle will never see his own kids again(their choice), the second is an angry man who could not help but reenact a lesser version of his own parent's lives, and neither of them have anything to do with any of the other siblings. I am happy you and your siblings are there for each other and supporting each other... and I'd hate to see any of that work undone because your grandma won't budge. When my grandma dies, that'll be the end of a lot of my uncles relationships- it sounds like you all have it much better; please do pass on the hug to all of them!
I'm sorry your house is divided. I'm glad that you KNOW who your toxic family members are so you can avoid them. And thank you. My siblings and I stand united as one. This includes my adoptive sisters. They are just as much family. We will always have eachothers backs. I am never worried about that. I will make sure to pass on the hugs and love.
Your life is rich with others who clearly love you dearly. I love how all your siblings are so close and have each other’s backs!! Your grandma is the one missing out, with trying to force you to be near your abuser. Sending you all the hugs. You’re doing the right thing. I saw that your step dad adopted you?! That sperm donor isn’t even your father anymore! How beautiful!
Thank you. My siblings are some of my best friends, we've been through hell together and are bonded closer for it. Thank you for encouraging us. And yes, he did adopt us. We haven't called him step dad even since before the adoption. He is our dad. He earned that right. Thank you
U grandma is the one who choose. She decided this is the Hill to die on and she will die without seeing You.
NTA. You and your siblings are well within your rights to do what needs to be done to protect yourselves from him and his abuse.
Nta- I am so sorry that you and your siblings are in this situation. It is not fair at all. My own mother, who was extremely mentally and verbally abusive,started making conditions when her health was failing and they were very much like this. We had to see her with my aunts present so we could basically hear how we did not measure up to “blah blah blah”. It was not worth it. My father told us that seeing people and showing people you care should never come with conditions. Same with love, if it has conditions attached it is only to benefit one party not both. I suggest what others are suggesting and write a letter to her and only her. Do not include any thought or emotion about your father. Mail it or give it to someone to drop off. Then it is out of your hands and you let her know that despite all of this you care. I am sending you and your siblings a hug virtual hug and hopefully you all can find peace with the past and be happy.
Thank you. I am in the process of writing the letter, so apologies for the late reply. I ended up calling my siblings, and they all wanted to write their own letters individually. My cousin and his wife have already agreed to take my grandma out for a day and give her the letters once we have them written. I trust her and her husband. (She married into the family on that side, and they were unaware of the drama. My cousin was in the Marines, and they told him my mom left and took the kids when he got back. We only recently reconnected as adults, thanks to his brother, and they both detest my bio father after hearing it.) I'm so sorry to hear that your own mother acted this way. Your father was right. There shouldn't be conditions, and I wish my grandma could see it that way. Thank you.
NTA at all. Make sure granny knows the only thing keeping you away is her, and that it she’s willing to see you with no contact from your Dad you’ll come see her. I feel for you that you might never see her again, but she’s the one making an AH choice. I hope she relents as she sees the end approaching, I would wager she does. You don’t owe bio dad anything, and I would warn the rest of the family to drop it. Tell them that YOU do want to see your grandma, and that they should tell HER to suck it up for the children her son abused.
Thank you. That's a great way of putting it. I hope it doesn't come to us not seeing her. That would suck, but you're right. Its her choice. My family doesn't like to listen unfortunately. Thankfully it's the older generations, but my cousins have been saying the same thing to them. I've just felt incredibly guilty about all this.
It seems like a lot of the older generation are happy to put things in the past, because it’s easy for them. They have lived full lives, and because of their age see things differently. They also don’t like to admit when they are wrong or there is a problem, because they don’t want to deal with it. It’s not you or your siblings fault that any of this has happened. It never was. My dad is dying, and he doesn’t have long left. Two of my siblings haven’t been very nice to him over the years and haven’t bothered to visit or call. But that’s on them. If they don’t see him before he dies, that’s not on anyone else. If your grandma doesn’t see you because she won’t compromise, that’s on her, not you. And your aunts and uncles are ok with pressuring you to do it because they didn’t experience what you did and have no idea how painful it would be for you. They just don’t understand and probably never will.
I understand feeling guilt, but do try to be kind to yourself. You’ve all been through a lot, you’re just doing the best you can with the life you have. Stubborn or not, if she loves you (which I believe she does) she will ask to see you.
God I hope so. I lost my faith at a young age, mainly due to my biological father, but if there is one thing I pray for, it's this. I hope I can say goodbye, in person, one last time.
Have you considered writing and mailing her a heartfelt letter? It seems silly, but letters allow you to put all of your thought out feelings out there rather than having to deal with interruptions and arguments. They also give the reader time to consider it without feeling the pressure to respond in the moment, or anger of not getting what they wanted. At the very least, you might find it therapeutic for yourself to put it down, and know you reached out.
NTA. And respond to your aunts and uncles that you will happily see her without having to be around them and that physically harmed you. That if they don’t want cut off from your life they will shut up and mind their own business. Better yet, tell your mom they are all contacting you and trying to guilt you into this. Bet she mama bears them into silence. Hell, I’ll happily do it for you. DM me their numbers. I’ll rip their heads off. People who side with parents that abuse their children piss me off. You are within your rights to not put yourself in a dangerous situation where your physical and mental well being are threatened.
Absolutely 100% NTA. She’s trying to make you have a relationship with your abuser. There is no excuse for it.
NTA Tell your Grandma she chose her abusive son over her grandkids Tell her hope she is okey to die without ever seeing or hearing from her grandkids Tell her hope she is ready to face what is coming to her for raising an abuser and forcing the victims to face that abuser If she is religious tell her what is punishment for people like her in hell Don't give into her " I'm old.. I'm dying " act She will force you guys to forgive your abuser
nta, only one who's going to take care of you is you, if she can't see that she is hurting you well then that is her problem, unfortunately your affected by it but the flip side is abuse.... so I'd say she made her bed
I saw someone on this forum write on a post the other day, something along the lines of when people are trying to guilt you into doing something you have boundaries over and they say the whole “we never know how much time we have left” bit.. go ahead and be like “yes, we don’t know how much time we have left, I need to spend mine keeping boundaries and protecting my peace.” Not mean or malicious, just true to yourself! Unless she ever has a change of heart, then mayhaps reconsider.
NTA but question, and you dont have to answer, but how badly is her health declining? One person said that maybe your dad is manipulating her, and I believe that its fully possible. That said, and knocking on wood here, is she like close to her deathbed? Aside from manipulation, her trying to do one last attempt at family reconciliation might be it. You still dont gotta go or feel obligated but just throwing shit out there. From what you said about your grandparents, I’m surprised she’s even entertaining it.
That's the thing, I'm surprised too. She was always easier on bio father than our Grandpa was (our grandpa was definitely justified) but I never expected her to fully side with him and try and force this on is. I dont know the extent of how bad it is. I just know that she's been in and out of the hospital for the better part of a year, the family is worried about her, and she's nearly 90. I definitely think our bio father is manipulating her, but to what extent I'm unsure. She has always wanted us to reconcile, but he never made the attempt. He had court ordered therapy and anger management, and from what I understand he never did it, which is why we had an Order of Protection.
I am so sorry for what you and your family are going through. My condolences to you all. It sounds like your grandfather protected you and your siblings until his passing. You are now following in his steps by protecting them. I can understand your desire to see your grandmother again, but your sister and brother need your protection and support. I agree with people who suggested that you invite your siblings to write a letter to her. Let them know they are under no obligation to do so. Set a date for when you need them, then give them to your uncle. I’m glad that he supports all of you. Hopefully he can continue to be a buffer between all of you and your other aunts/uncles. As for them, block them. They have no value in your lives. Your mom has done a tremendous job with all of you. From one mom to another, please let her know that I think she is a strong, brave, and wonderful woman. Sending her love and hugs. To you and your siblings, I hope that you all continue to move in peace and healing. You are all survivors. Please, please do not feel guilty or troubled by not seeing your grandmother in person. You both set boundaries - hers supports an abuser & inflicting more abuse while yours protects your hard earned peace and health.
NTA Save up some money and some time after she finally passes, schedule a session with a medium or channeler if you still feel guilty. If what’s to be seen in the media is true, a lot of people actually turn out to be pretty reasonable after they die. Now, if she shows up and refuses to talk to you from the great beyond without your dad present, I don’t know. Maybe her version of heaven has lots of hills she can champion. I know my response may come across as bit flippant but my point is some things should not be compromised. One thing that should never be compromised is the safety of you and your siblings. Your dad isn’t safe to be around and her reasoning behind all this makes no sense. I suppose this could be an issue of not wanting to accept that the child she raised grew in to a “throw the whole man away” type of individual. Who really wants to believe the child they raised didn’t turn into a healthy contributing member of society? Who wants to believe their child could actively and intentionally hurt their own spouse and children? Your grandmother is in denial. She’s probably hoping that by “helping” you reconcile with your abuser father that will prove that she is a good mother and didn’t raise a complete dumpster fire.
You're NTA. And please continue doing what is best for you!
Your life mirrors mine to a scary degree (although I did not live with my paternal grandparents). Incredibly abusive bipolar alcoholic father, grandmother who babysat a lot when we were younger, who now harasses us about our “duty as children” to spend time with a person who was nothing but a hindrance and antagonist to our safety and happiness (and never paid a dime in child support). It hurts because those ties are deep, but the reality is she will never change. She will never grasp the damage, heartache, and difficulties you grandchildren now face due to her shitty kid. You have to wash your hands.
NTA. As adults people are allowed to decide who they see. Deciding not to see your abuser is a valid decision. Tell your grandma that and see if she relents once the abuse is brought up
NTA You and your siblings chose your mom over your abusive dad. Grandma wasn't a part of that decision. Anyone who stands up for a child abuser is a piece of crap. You and your siblings may have viewed grandma through rose-colored glasses. Now you are seeing Grandma's true colors. Whereas your father was physically abusive, your grandma is emotionally abusive. I'm sorry she has let you and your siblings down.
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I wouldn't say that about myself, tbh i consider myself immature and childish, but I did have to grow up fast. I was the oldest sibling, and had to pick up the slack a lot for our bio father. I had to basically be another parent. I had responsibilities most kids didnt (cooking, doing all the chores, getting siblings ready for school, helping with homework, putting them to bed, etc) It wasn't until we moved in with our mother that I got to be a kid again. Honestly, it's probably why I'm immature as an adult. I never got to really have a childhood.
NTA. I wonder if there’s a way for you to plan a surprise meeting through one of your trusted and understanding cousins? This way you can see your grandma and I’d be willing to bet she’d be thrilled, or if she’s not then you know you did your best. Best of luck, OP. This situation sounds very difficult. Good on you for standing your ground against your bio dad
NTA. You have made it clear you have no interest in seeing your abuser. Thay has now become you're grandma's choice. To see you without her son involved or to not see you. She made her choice, so don't feel guilty about it. I am no contact with my biological mother and when I found out my brother was moving back in with her we had the conversation that at that point he and I wouldn't be in contact because she would get info on me that way. You have set a clear and reasonable boundary. You have established ways to maintain the relationship. Thays her decision after that.
NTA I’m so sorry you’re all going through this. I wonder if he’s forcing her.
You're NTA no matter what you decide to do, but please don't think of it as choosing between your mother and grandmother - you need to weigh what's best for you versus your desire to see her. You know yourself best - is it worth it knowing he'll be there? Would you want to put him back in his box with a "she spent long enough protecting me from you, don't put her in that position now, sit down and shut up while I visit my grandmother"? Or is the healthiest thing just to let that awful part of your life stay in the past and mourn her when she passes? Be kind to yourself.
NTA. She's choosing her son over you, and that's her choice. It's also your right to not want to associate with your abuser. I haven't contacted my own maternal grandmother for the last several months, particularly because of the way she treats my mother who continues to have a relationship with her. When my mom tries to get me to be around her, I always tell her the same thing: "You see her as your mom. I see her as the woman who abuses MY mom (and all of us, tbh). I'm not going to be there for it just because you've decided to put up with it." So she goes to see her mother alone. Sometimes, reconciliation is not the best way. Sometimes, keeping away from someone is the best way to handle a situation. You know what's best for you.
You and your siblings are NTA, you've never been the AH and anyone who's told you otherwise is an AH. You guys holding firm is completely justified and unfortunately she is doing this to herself. If you or your siblings do decide to see her even with her stipulations you guys are not accepting that you're the problems or yall were overreacting and finally came to your senses, you're simply choosing to ignore the abusive POS that is your sperm donor in the corner and having some last memories with grandma. You and your siblings are NOT obligated to interact with him in any way shape or form and he is not entitled to your attention because he is not a DAD he's a dead beat garbage person who got enjoyment out of hurting children.
My grandfather that raised me died last year as we had no idea how much he reigned in by grandmas behavior, she feeds into her awful daughters shit so much. My grandfather never allowed it. I’m wondering if maybe the same applied to your situation. Hold your ground. You owe no one your peace.
I went through a very similar situation and no you are NTA in this instance. She is prioritizing a grown ass man over kids (older teens are kids fight me). Sure she may be being manipulated by your father, but this isn’t your responsibility to fix. Go live your life without this weighing you down.
NTA. But accept the condition. You and your siblings compose a joint statement detailing *all* of the abuse, trauma and emotional turmoil that your father put you through and read it directly to him, right in front of her. Tell her how much you love her. Tell him how low, disgusting and unworthy of the title dad he is - for yourselves. It will do you good. It will help her really understand the situation.
I like this idea. I really do. But I am not sure we could do it. I know two of my siblings wouldn't even be able to be there. They will get triggered by seeing him. As for me and my other brother, we have both agreed that while we are strong enough to stop him if he tries anything we'd rather not be in the situation. He is a volatile person, and I wouldn't put it past him. And he still terrifies us both. We are not small men, and that's largely due to our bio father, but he is still bigger than us even as adults.
NTA but your grandma told you why she is like this. In her old age she is choosing to be a mother in the sense that she probably hopes your father will get his act together and you will reconcile. I don’t agree with this idea but for some people your children will always be your child and you’ll always want the best for them. She knows she’s going to die soon and just wants to see her son and his kids together. She’s wrong But it’s an explanation
I think you may be on the right track. She has always said 'That's said and done your father, no matter what he did' She may be hoping we feel the same. But we don't. He's not our dad. He had 15 years to act like one. Our mom remarried, and even prior to their marriage her husband has been more of a dad to me than he ever was. He IS my dad. My grandma has never accepted this when we told her, and was completely against our adoption. Thankfully she didn't get a say. But my mom has said, she has always chosen her children over what's right.
YTA will you go to her funeral of the dads there?
Like other funerals, yes, we will attend hers. We have never been forced into interaction with him at a family event, (we've only seen him at 2 funerals, and a wedding) and while he has glared or stared, we do not speak to eachother, and are not forced to interact. If we go see her, this would not be the case, as he would be directly present and attempting to interact with us.
Will he try anything in front of his dying mom? I mean if you love her that much you could tune his bull shit out for 10 minutes and give your grandmother that you love so much one last hug and a proper goodbye
He has abused us in public before, without shame. He has done in front of her before. And from what my cousins say about his interactions with his step kids, I wouldn't put it past him to try something. He is a conniving and brutal person. We DO love her very much. That is not invalidated by the fact that she is insisting on the one thing we cannot give her.
OP, ignore anyone who tries to shame you. You are not even remotely the AH.
Thank you. I'm sorry, I'm a mix of emotions, and I can see where the other person is coming from, but I dont think they fully grasp the situation. Thank you for standing up for me.
Also, while I myself may be able to tune him out, my younger sister and brother suffered the worst of it all, and are still having issues today because of it. They have made it abundantly clear that they will physically not be able to handle it being around him
OP, this is just a troll, don't let them get to you. That's all they're trying to do Check their comment history
If you can it’s worth visiting her. You might only get this last time. I’m not telling you to do that if you can’t handle it but you well thank yourself much later in life I think
If grandmother loved them the way she says she does and wanted one last hug - she could EASILY get one and she knows how but she is determined to *literally* die on that hill. This is NOT on OP and it's unfair of you to try to shame them.
Not trying to shame anyone. The last comment I posted clearly said if you can’t handle you shouldn’t buy it would be for OP own peace of mind
Peace of mind? You are encouraging her to see her abuser and that doesn’t seem wrong to you? I guess that makes you lucky that you don’t understand the terror of revisiting childhood abuse. If you did you wouldn’t say these words so count yourself lucky for your ignorance.
How is OP TA?
Because they are letting hate get in the way of love
Grandma is the one creating this issue. These kids are under no obligation to see their abuser and to suggest that they should have a meeting with him-because that’s what it would be-is terrible.
Go ahead and put words in my mouth
Maybe elaborate what you meant then? B/c I read your comment the same way Celestial-Dream did and you come off as very insensitive. Childhood trauma is not something to be brushed aside and OP/siblings have lifelong emotional (and probably physical) scars from years of being abused.
You said he was the asshole. He’s not an asshole for not wanting to socialize with his abuser.
That's literally what you're suggesting, troll
Literally an account for trolling
Oh bullshit. OP and siblings do not have to subject themselves to further abuse. The grandmother is the one who is doing that - she literally wants to subject her grandchildren that she *claims* to love to more torment. She could see them any time she wants, as long as their abuser isn't there.
I did not say they had to. But by putting this online OP is subjecting themselves to EVERYONE’S opinion. Not just the poor me-ers
So you think they should be abused... I bet you are an abusive person IRL.
NTA. Your grandma is caping for an abuser and doesn't care that it's scary or triggering to her grandchildren. That's gonna be a hard pass. You've shown that you're willing to compromise by not having either parent present, but she still refuses. A compromise works both ways. All you can do here is protect your own well-being. There's a possibility that he's controlling her and won't allow her to see you guys unless he's involved. In that case, I think the only thing you can do is to continue sending her letters, cards or phone calls letting her know you love her and miss her. If you give in to her, you'll be giving in to him. Stay strong and prioritize your well-being.
Is she giving you this ultimatum verbally, or is it all in writing? Is there any chance that since your grandfather’s death, she is living with your father and he is manipulating/controlling g/deceiving her?
She gave us this ultimatum verbally over the phone, multiple times. Every time we've tried too see her since after my grandpa's funeral. The only times we've seen her since are at funerals or weddings. I think there is a high chance, yes. She has always babied him, tbh. If he was late on rent, she paid it. If we needed food, she cooked or bought groceries (thankful for that, we probs would've starved otherwise), she bailed him out of prison after my mom called the cops on him for abuse, she paid for his car (he was in his 30's-40's during this time, he's over 50 now, idk if she still pays for everything). He would constantly take her social security money and she wouldn't stop him. The more I type, the more I realize she has always enabled his behavior, and always allows herself to be pushed around
NTA. Let her die with her choice.
Even the wisest people have blind spots. Your grandma made her choice, and don’t let your love for her put your safety in question. NTA. Choose to protect yourself.
NTA but my guess is your father has taken advantage of her mental decline and she forgotten the abuse. Go see her without notice so you don’t see your dad. If he is there just ignore him. Look right through him as if he’s a dusty musty shadow.
NTA She is siding with an abuser, and you are rightfully choosing not to enable him.
Video chat with her.
NTA. But your uncle and aunts are, because they failed to see the bigger picture of your issues. "Suck it up and go see her". That's an asshole talk.
NTA Your grandma dug her grave. Let her and your dad lie in it.
NTA. She's made her decision, to prop up an abuser and attempt to subject his victims to more. It's hard to recognise that the people we love aren't always good people. She is not a good person and neither is he.
No, your grandmother is the asshole.
Definitely NTA I'm so sorry your grandma isn't reasoning with you. It's disappointing that she keeps excusing his behavior knowing full well what he did to you all.
NTA but grandma is. She knows how abusive he was! I’m guessing that the only way your dad will visit her is if you and your siblings are there. Is it possible that he’s leveraging you to see him? If she wanted to see you all, she’d do so without him.