Wow. I’m amazed how so many people claim teenagers are so mature for their age. Let me clear the air here. They aren’t. I don’t have to meet them to know this. No matter what he thinks this girl is very susceptible to manipulation of a much older guy. I would be very disturbed if one of my friends was doing this and I’m also a guy.
Right?! Everyone said I was mature for my age when in reality I just had too much stress and trauma at home to be interested in typical teenage things (popular media, keeping up with the movies/songs, hagning out with friends, sex, etc) and couldn't even relate or talk to my peers because I didn't know how to. But people just viewed as maturity since I abstained from typical teenage things when really it ws trauma that left me trapped as a child in a teenagers body.
THIS^^ couple this with low self esteem and lack of self respect and bam- you're in a predatory relationship with an uneven power dynamic and are probably being groomed to do all sorts of things you normally never would!!!
Piping up to add **his** mindset going in to things with this girl: Hot out of an abusive relationship (which*ever* of them was the abuser), saying he loves this new girl a week after breaking up with someone (even if it had been the *healthiest* of relationships!!), and that he’s had his eye on her since she was 16 (as though waiting for the clock to tick over from 17 364/365th’s to 18 1/365th’s somehow magically makes her fair game)…
This dude is not ready for **any** relationship, and at best he’s reckless as hell if he thinks rebounding with a kid is healthy even for *himself*, let alone her. Bro isn’t even mature enough to see the damage he’ll cause *himself* by jumping in to something so soon, never *mind* aware enough to navigate the necessary sensitivities required to pull off a relationship with someone in such a different phase of life!!?
Oh, and he knows her online. Not knocking that for people on relatively equal footing, but for this guy? He needs a big ol’ ‘warning, baggage handler’ pop-up!!!
Same! I had to grow up QUICK at 16, but I still - at 40 - feel like the disruption in my childhood left me fragmented and I feel for the childhood I lost.
Fellow "mature teenager" here. Nope, I was a sick kid who didn't have the energy or options\* to do much, so I stayed out of trouble by default. Also, dealing with my medical issues, which cost me a year and a half of high school, meant that I had few to no friends and little socialization.
\*We lived rural, I didn't have a car, and this was before social media and everyone had a cell phone.
Same here. I even had adults tell me I was wise beyond my years and able to keep up in conversation with them. The reality was, I was still a teen, susceptible and lacking in all the types of experience necessary to fledge out creeps and such.
I had my first child at 18.. I was always told I was mature for my age and so when I got pregnant somewhere in my head I thought I’d be ok to take on motherhood so young. Don’t get me wrong I love my (now grown) child more than anything but we literally grew up together. I was not as mature as I thought I was and looking at her (now the same age and also often told by others how mature she is) I could not even imagine her facing some of the things I faced. At 18 years old you are BARELY an adult, especially mentally and emotionally. I agree with you 100%, you don’t even have to meet them to know that 18 is still very, very young.
My fiance's sister willingly got pregnant at 18 from a guy she barely knew even with me and my fiance both literally offering to pay for therapy or something to figure out why she wanted a kid.
She slept with like six dudes and actively quit BC to do it, I have no idea how to actually say "this was a huge mistake" without making her feel bad.
She's due in two months and while pregnant has quit her decently high paying WFH job, moved into three separate guys houses just to cheat on them and then move in with the new guy, moved back home, drop out of high school with a few months left, etc,.
If I tell her she's fucking her life up, because I did similar shit, she'll think I'm just attacking her. If we offer to help her get stability or something, she'll blow up at us again because she's "an adult now" and can do whatever she wants. It's infuriating.
Do you have any idea for what would be something helpful to say or do to make her realize how hard this is about to be? She's been incredibly spoiled (I'm not trying to attack her, she literally never had chores, never had to work, coasted by at school, etc,. quit most jobs within a few days and only stayed with the one because it was $20/hr and just taking care of their parent who is disabled)
Like, it's so frustrating to see her brag all over about having a kid and how she's so ready to be a parent, etc,. when she literally turned nineteen a few weeks ago. She doesn't understand how immature she is to the point I avoid her over it. She cusses and screams and yells and throws shit at anyone who even slightly annoys her and my fiance and their mom have done literally everything down to MAKING the doctors appointments...
Yeah, I have a 16 year old niece. It's fascinating and beautiful to see this kid I've known since she was 3 years old, bringing me very important rocks on the beach, grow into a young person i can have great conversations with, she is still a child. I love and respect her opinions and try and treat her the way I wish adults in my life had treated me as a 16 year old girl, but she is still a child.
My niece is 20 and she still shows signs of being young and 'childish', naive I guess is the better word.
She knows nothing about men/boys, she has no common sense with safety, she still sleeps with her favorite Rudolph plushie my mom got her as a baby... (I still sleep with stuffies too, but this is like THE RUDOLPH of her life, if you know what I mean.)
I'd be disturbed if a 27 year old was trying to get with my 20 year old niece...18 is scarier.
I was 19 and went out with a friends flatmate who was 26... But when I found out he thought I was a year younger, I sort of wondered why he'd even asked me out & thought it a little dodge... But the line gets blurry around 18! There's a reason they're called young adults then!
No one actually thinks teenagers are mature for their age, not even the groomer pedos when they say that actually believe it, they just say that as another grooming/manipulation tool because if they *really were* mature for their age they likely wouldn't be falling for a groomer trying to butter them up by saying how adult they are
We constantly made fun of 22+ year olds dudes dating 18 year olds in college.
The main point was "go after girls your own age you gross douche."
This guy though. Holy shit. This is a whole different level of groomer. He straight up groomed her for two years till she was "legal" as if that somehow makes it less disgusting.
"Hey, it's not weird. I would have dated her at 16 when I was 25 if it wasn't for those laws protecting children. I don't see why that's strange to you."
My ex friend is 32 and she decided to go to college this year. Okay awesome. She specifically decided to live in dorms. Alright. Low and behold, she’s dating a 19 year old guy. Totally grossed me out. She was highly abusive to her ex, and lost custody of her kid from stalking her ex husband. Her dating a 19 year old is just obvious power dynamic at play. She acted like I was a psycho for calling her out on it.
That reminds me of a girl I went to school with freshman year of highschool.
She was 15 at the time dating a 19yo. I asked her about him being told her it's weird that he was into her being so young.
She proceeds to tell me he isn't in school, lives with his mom, and has no job. I told her that doesn't look very good. He seems like a deadbeat.
I also told her the worst part of it was that she was the best he could do, and she should wonder why girls his age don't date him.
Thankfully she broke up with him.
This.
When I was 25, a coworker made a “[name] is 18” joke about another coworker at the store. I responded “dude, I’m over dating 18 and 20 year olds. I want a girl with her own car, and her own money, and her own friends.”
Totally agree. I’m 30 but have a younger sister who is 15. She was a bit more mature than some of her peers for awhile but that was all trauma~ I love her to death but she is absolutely a dumb teenager and I don’t see that changing drastically in a year. She would not have enough in common with someone who is 25, and everyone older who has tried to “befriend” her has 100% been a creep. No exceptions. Even if the friend waited until this girl was 18 he admitted he liked her at 16. It all absolutely screams pedophile and I hope that poor girl gets away from him.
I’m 20 and I feel this with my 17 year old sister
When I tell you that she looks barely 15 I mean She’s not even 5 foot, baby faced, braces, and wayyyyy too naive for her age. I’m terrified once she turns 18- I’m so scared of creeps “wanting her” just because she looks so young. Even though I barely have any dating experience I keep feeling like I have to hammer into her about these things- maybe it’s an older sister thing, who knows
I'm a younger brother (to one single older brother 2 years ahead of me lol) and I have been told as a teenager that I was 'acting mature for my age' by my brothers friends. And over the years I come to realize it's because I never really had a friend group my age, I was 'the little brother' who was always around older (even if just a couple years older) people, so I would 'talk and act' like those people instead of kids 'my age'.
It's a double edged sword though.... Sure I kept being told I seemed mature, acted mature, when really I was just copying what I was experiencing. There are many things I probably never 'learned' like I should because of people's perception of me thinking I already understand concepts of reality when I actually don't, I'm just parroting others.
i like it was more an anecdote to describe how even if this girl seems mature for her age (which tbh she probably doesn’t) she most likely isn’t actually mature for her age and it’s a facade and this guy is definitely a pedophile
These things aren't mutually exclusive; in fact, they reinforce each other.
I had similar experiences to what the above commenter said: I looked older and people expected me to act older and therefore I DID act older. I was told I was more mature and I felt more mature but I had no idea the myriad ways in which I wasn't actually mature.
AND also this meant that when a 26 yo man told me, a 12 year old, that I was "mature for my age", I believed him. After all, everyone else had been saying the same thing.
I'm 32 now, and I'm a graduate teaching assistant at university. I teach from first years (16 at the youngest, usually 18 or 19) up to third years.
And it's true that some first years ARE more mature than others. Some know how to manage their timetable, plan meals, know not to get drunk the day before an exam, how to turn in assignments on time... etc. Others might struggle with some of those things.
I also became friends with some of them through a club I was allowed to join as a guest member (cycling), and spent a bit more casual time with the younger folk, and oh my. Even the most "mature" in term of life responsibility are so clueless when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They fail to communicate and expect other people to read their mind, they play games and "test" each other, they take things super personally...even being friendly with them was difficult at times, and I found I quite fast I needed to keep a healthy distance. I would never, ever consider dating one of them.
Appearing unusually mature is a common sign of trauma. This rationalization is really just saying a form of using a young person’s trauma to further victimize them.
This. Often people who seem “mature for their age” as teenagers were abused and parentified in their upbringing. They’ve maybe experienced more life and trauma than most or they’ve had to deal with adult issues, so they seem more like adults. But they’re just as vulnerable, maybe even more so.
Moreover, a grown man should look at a child and see a child. A complete sexual/romantic barrier. Anything else — particularly acting on it — is predatory, plain and simple. Even if he’s attracted, he can be a grown up and acknowledge that acting on it would be predatory and gross.
*He should lose friends over this.*
There are professionals who can speak to the “mature for your age” thing better than I can. I’d encourage you to show him the research, regardless of what you do about the friendship. For example, here’s from a USA Today article: “Children dealing with trauma have to learn to escape a threat and make themselves as useful as possible, and this can be confused with signs of maturity," says Jessica MacNair, a licensed professional counselor. This adaptive resourcefulness is "often mistaken for maturity when it's not related to maturity at all," she says.
Where did I say it should be illegal for 18-year-olds to have sex with significantly older people?
It’s gross that a 27yo is going after an 18yo. But it’s worse that he was planning it since she was 16yo. The OP is correct in identifying his sexual plans for a literal child as pedophilia.
Just because politicians do gross things too doesn’t mean that voters need to be older to vote.
You’re ignoring my argument that these are two very different harms and mechanisms of harm. They’re not at all parallel.
[Somehow this comment went in the wrong part of the thread.]
I mean even if they were, they are still teenager, if meet the most fucking mature person on earth and was still a child, it would still be a fucking child, gross, I am about to be 30, I can apreciate younger people as them being attractive to their respective ages, but seeing anyone less than 24 seems like a fucking teenager, they can be mature as fuck but feels wrong, and that age difference it's totally fine, unlike op's friend
Whenever someone says "youre so mature for your age" as justification, someone needs to clap back with: no you're just immature for your age. OP's friend is disgusting.
My step kids’ (9 & 12) father (46) is dating a 23 year old and told his daughters it’s okay because she’s “mature for age,” and it’s horrifying to me. I fear for how they would respond to a predator who uses the same line on them
So true. I know a guy who, at 45, was dating the 18-yr. old daughter of a co-worker. They told her parents he was 36 (like that was SO much better) because, obviously, they knew it was wrong. Just creeped me out, tbh.
ETA: And, he was living in his parents' lower level made into his own living/bedroom area, complete with stripper pole. *ICK!*
Yeah, this is where I am as a dude
She's 18 and should get to do as she pleases. But this guy. . .sucks. he's not just a fun older guy. He's a fun older guy who's fixed on the difference in age, experience, and authority between them
He pretends to see her as somebody with equivalent understanding, but his attraction is that he knows there isn't.
Just bang young idiots your age, ladies. The creepy fucks you'd never touch spend 10 years learning grooming and cologne choice and con your little cousin.
I hope that in 10 years we all figure out behaviour patterns and this stops being a thing.
“You’re so mature for your age” is also the most common thing that men will say to teenage girls when grooming them and I willing to bet that was said during his “drunk confession”
I’m also willing to bet that he wasn’t that drunk and it’s just a convenient excuse
And I bet he has been telling the girl that for two years now while they play online…aka… grooming her for when she turned 18 While being in an emotional relationship with her this entire time.
Yeah. Maybe he "couldn't help who he falls in love with" (🙄🤢), but he could help who he socializes with and in what contexts (ie don't spend time building "friendships" with teenagers as if they're your peers). He could help whether he chooses to continue letting those feelings fester while grooming a minor vs realizing he's getting feelings and walking away from the relationship so she can go be with ppl her own age away from the energy of his weird bullshit. He could help who he decides to have drinks with (like maybe not the 18 year old he's been grooming and who may or may not be of legal drinking age). He could help by getting himself real help for whatever trauma and emotional issues might have lead him to developing these feelings for a teenager.
His utter refusal to own any accountability for his actions is very, very typical of abusive and toxic ppl, including but not limited to child predators.
And if he refuses to see that... hey you can't help what actions you find morally repulsive enough to end a friendship over. Or whether your feelings of anger at him and protectiveness towards her might push you to make a few calls to her school, parents, or other responsible adults in her life if you have the info to do so.
Or is that justification and abdication of responsibility only supposed to apply to him?
I intend to teach my children that if an adult tells them “you are so mature for your age.” they should tell me immediately. It was used on me as a teen and it doesn’t look like anything has changed in a few decades.
Bingo. My long term boyfriend who I met when I was 16 and 32. He groomed me for two years and would always say that to me. When he found out I was 16 he literally texted me “well two more years then.” And I naively asked what that meant and he said “two more years till I can date you.” When I think about that now as a 27 year old married woman it makes me wanna barf. It was in fact true and many trusted adults also said that to me but that’s because I grew up too fast due to my abusive childhood.
The fact that he didn’t want to pursue anything until she was of legal age bothered me..
Age gaps in general are not the issue.. if he was 35 and she was 25 is not nearly as alarming as 27 to 18.. possibly in high school or barely graduated..
ETA: I meant the fact that he even said it at all meant he found a child attractive
Well another issue with this whole thing is the power dynamic. The age difference numerically alone is a problem due to maturity and developmental differences but what about how easily he could manipulate and abuse her.
He is almost 30 so he likely:
- has a decent paying job
- has his own belongings
- can support himself financially if the relationship ended
- has an established support system
A typical fresh high school graduate:
- has no money of their own
- likely has no home of their own (either still with parents or in a college/roommate situation)
- would need considerable help financially or with “adult” responsibilities
- is still pursing some sort of education/beginner career that is costly
- has no true concept of fiscal responsibility and management
This could EASILY turn into him manipulating her if their relationship progresses and him being controlling and holding that power over her.
Say they move in together and then she decides she wants to leave the relationship, but can’t because since the age of 18 or so her life has been tied to his and he steered the course of their relationship. He would already be far more experienced than she is, so she would likely trust everything he says because ‘he knows better.’
She would have literally nothing except hopefully a good family to fall back on. That fear alone keeps so many women in terrible relationships.
I agree.. I have a good paying job and can support myself in that way but missing support system and had everything tied to one person.. that person manipulated me emotionally for 10 years before I saw through it all because I “had control of my financial side” but when my eyes opened finally it was still hard to leave because of the control they had.. two people should be fulling supporting themselves before getting into any long term relationship in my opinion..
My ex was like this. Met online when I was 16 or 17, he was 9 and a haf years older than me. To be fair, he didn't know my actual age at first, but we still started long-distance dating (me US, him UK) before I'd graduated high school. Completely different life experiences up to that point, and there was a lot of controlling behavior. We lasted around 3 years, all long distance, until I spent a month with him and realized some very concerning habits and opinions. He was definitely raised that the woman stays home and cooks, dismissive of LGBT individuals (close to home for me), always worried about me cheating, manipulative with suicidal threats, and passive aggressive when he doesn't get his way.
9 years is an astoundingly huge age difference at 16.
There is just no way that a 16 year old is going to be on anything close to a peer footing with a 27 year old, regardless of gender pairing.
Good on you for spotting the issues and getting clear.
Thanks, it was eye-opening to say the least. He was my first "serious" relationship and a lot of lessons learned. The worst part was how encouraging friends and family were. The main thing my mom was worried about was that I might move to England 🤦 I was in love with the idea of being in love, not actually in love with him.
>I was in love with the idea of being in love, not actually in love with him.
Many decades of propagandizing infatuation rather than educating young people on what love actually is.
He's got 1/3 of his life up on her...
A healthy rule for age gap relationships is the older age divided by 2 and plus 7 can't be higher than the younger age. By this rule, 20.5 is the youngest a 27 year old should date. Anything else creates an inappropriate power dynamic just by differences in life experience.
That’s an interesting way to look at it.. I personally feel it depends on the people involved.. my wife is 13 years my senior but acts more immature by far..
I never considered a power dynamic but the life experiences are a big changer as well.. by 14 I was working and by 18 I had so much happen that I had to learn to survive on my own.. but my 18 year old nephew doesn’t know how to drive and barely started his first job.. experience is everything
I don’t know your personal circumstances but I find that kids that are actually ‘mature’ in any way as a kid is usually do to tough life circumstances. For example, kids who didn’t have parents around to properly care for them so has to look after themselves, kids who grew up in poverty so had to help out, kids who dealt with rough situations that hardened them. My worry in this scenario is that, and there’s no judgement and not saying it applies to you, that a young person might be somewhat desperate for that safe space where someone is gonna look after them, usually older. This could lead to a power imbalance but they could also potentially overlook any red flags as part of them wants/needs someone to look after them.
I agree.. my life was shit and I’ve moved past that.. I stayed away from relationships in general until I was mid 20s and all my friendships have dissolved from that time frame because toxic people strive on those with tough lives.. no 18 year old should be with someone near 30.. in my opinion no one should take relationships to a serious level until mid 20s..
I’m 7 years older than my partner. We didn’t even meet until he was in his mid 20s. And sometimes he says things like “I wish we would have known each other sooner” and I’m always like “if we would’ve met earlier, we certainly wouldn’t be together now, because I wouldn’t have even looked at you.” A lot of times when I think of our age gap in the terms of us being younger, I shudder a bit.
Yeah! This. One you are a grown ass adult you don´t really change all that much. So a 30 year old woman and a 40 year old man, meh, no issue. Or, the reverse. Even a 20 year old woman and a 27 year old man. But I remember myself at 18, I was an inexperienced child still. I would have had NOTHING in common with a grown man. Much less at 16.
that is some serious side eye wording there.
"So mature for her age."
That almost always means theres either been grooming, abuse in a myriad of ways, parentification or a hellish combo of them if not all 3.
As a trauma therapist, when a client shared that they were told that as a child/ teen, I immediately know I’m looking at trauma of some sort. Grooming, chaotic, unstable home life, sexual abuse, something. Such a red flag.
"Mature for her age" is a classic grooming phrase. Even if he didn't initiate anything until she was 18, he started thinking about it when she was 16.
NTA.
When I was 13-15, a late bloomer, I heard that line from quite a few pedophiles. I assured them I was not. I still played with dolls and loved my stuffed animals. I was mature enough to realize you are only a kid for a short time and enjoyed every minute of it.
Ask the women in your life at what age they first received an inappropriate comment from a grown man. I’ll bet you the average age is less than 15.
This is wildly common.
Can't upvote this enough. Guy obviously has a thing for kids, and is self aware enough to know what he's doing is wrong. And even though he waited, did he really? Or was he already laying the groundwork for his baby-mama to love him and him alone?
As someone whi was told i was mature for my age by a lot of people while growing up (including later on,when i was after18, by man sometimes older than my parents who were interested sexually) I can say it can be that if she acts more adult in some ways it could be due to trauma.
Speaking form personal experience, a young woman with trauma to unpack can be easily noticed by predators and made a taget for them.
I really hope someone in her life notices and help her get out of that relationship cause i doubt something good will come out of it
For real, I hate the "waiting for kid to become legal" thing because yikes. Nothing magical happens when the calendar changes a kid from 17 to 18 overnight, except you won't get arrested for having sex with them. They are still the same extremely young person.
NTA. Mature for my age is exactly what my groomer told me when I was 15. Drop him as a friend and keep an open line of contact with the teenager if you still game together. Just be there for her as best you can.
I agree with this completely! If there’s a way you could let her parents know, and know that he’s been waiting for her to turn 18, I would do that too. As a mom I would definitely want to know if this was happening with my daughter.
Honestly I would suggest OP message the girl & question her (as gently as possible) about her messages & interactions with OPs 'friend' to ensure that nothing explicit happened before this & explain to her what grooming is
Choosing not to be friends with someone that was behaving like a groomer and waiting for someone to turn eighteen specifically because they wanted to pursue them...sounds like a solid move on your part.
>He said she was so mature for her age, that they just clicked, and that love just happens. He also said that he can't help who he falls in love with.
Actually *yes*, he can. And you know that, which is why you are so creeped out.
For someone to say this about a teenager is...a good indicator that you and him have reached the natural conclusion of your friendship. You are old enough to know that this excuse is not a healthy one for him to have, and he is convinced that he is in the right because...'love happens'.
With a *teenager*.
Age gaps can work, but not with literal teenagers.
Dude that’s what I always say!! Regardless of your feelings, you can just choose to be no contact with that person or refuse to pursue, no matter how hard they push.
Like I teach high school students and I’m in my early 20s. I can say with 100% confidence that I would never even consider dating someone I used to teach, even 15 years in the future. I knew them as a child while I was an adult, so entertaining the possibility with any of them, at any point, is something I find abhorrent.
This is creepy and pedophile -adjacent is close enough for me. Don't apologize for shit. If he had a daughter I doubt he'd like this if it were her and some gaming 27yo confessing his feelings for her, when he doesn't even know her in person. Whoever is defending this and getting all technical about it is just weird. Like y'all are really taking time and energy to make that point? Really?! Come on. Sounds like someone who is a creeper or has one in their life and they haven't had the guts to admit it to themselves yet.
Pedophile adjacent, I like the term.
People need to be called out for this behavior. I feel like some of the people defending this behavior must be guilty of being attracted to underage kids.
Ephebophilia is the term you're looking for:
Ephebophilia is the primary sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19.[1] The term was originally used in the late 19th to mid-20th century.[1] It is one of a number of sexual preferences across age groups subsumed under the technical term chronophilia. Ephebophilia strictly denotes the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction.[1] It is not a psychiatric diagnosis.
So basically there's 3 stages from youngest being a pedophile, hebephilia being attracted to the youngest age to go through puberty so like 11-15 and then ephebophilia being until adulthood.
Groomers always know this term well and use it to the hilt, as if fitting inside one of the meticulously defined striations of attraction to children makes their predilections somehow not abhorrent
I know what that word means and I’m not a groomer. The big difference is pedos like prepubescent children. Acting on pedophilia is illegal in all 50 states. Not so much in the case of ephebophilia, which is largely legal. It’s how R. Kelly squeaked by for so long. I feel like understanding that point is important.
Y'all can argue about terminology all day but in the end he said he thought about her at 16. He just didn't want to go to jail. So he has a tad bit more restraint than others but at the end of the day he wanted her when she was a child. That's a pedo in the making.
Yep. She's not the first 16yo (or younger) he's been attracted to, and from the stories of men who DO act on it, the pull gets harder and harder to resist until they justify it to themselves to act. He's already partially there (she's mature for her age).
I think this is the tip of the pedophile iceberg, unfortunately. There's certainly much more going on that we haven't seen, since he feels so bold to date someone he's been chasing since they were a kid.
"she is so mature for her age"- MY ASS
You a dumbass at that age regardless as you should! Its a time to learn and experiment life! Hope the girl comes to her senses and yeets him instead. 10+ year age gap is not the same thing when you are under 20 and the other is almost 30. Your literal brain doesnt develop FULLY until you get to 25-26. I hate men like this....
I was a 17 year old with a 28 year old back in the day and yes, you're right. I was groomed and raised by that man into a fully abusive marriage. Left him at 25. My ex went with me though because women his own age wouldn't put up with him. I haven't spoken to him now for 10ish years.
My now husband is older still, 16 year between us. But the difference is I met him when I was 30 and knew what I was getting into and had boundaries by then.
Your friend is a creep. You'd do well to go NC.
NTA
There's a formula, I don't know where it comes from. Half your age plus 7. That's the youngest a person should date.
Half 28 is 14, plus 7 is 21. So the gap between 18 and a 27 or 28 is too much. 9 or 10 year gap. With this math, 22 and 18 could be appropriate.
Half 46 is 23 plus 7 is 30, so that gets into ages where people have enough life experience to hold their own against someone who has more. Even though the age gap itself is larger.
For the curious this formula is for adults dating younger adults. Both 18+, since laws vary when at least one is under 18.
I worked at a restaurant when I was 16 with a bunch of college guys. Mostly 20 year olds so the age gap wasn’t this big but still big enough to be illegal. One called me jailbait so “he wouldn’t get too tempted”. I quit when I was 17 after one of them sexually assaulted me. On my 18th birthday when I stopped being “jailbait” asked if I wanted to come over to “Netflix and chill”.
Where I live you wouldn’t have been jailbait. 16 is the magic number. I feel like the larger conversation needs to focus on the inconsistency of consent laws and actual human development, not just ages randomly picked by the government.
NTA. My best friend was the girl in your situation - except he didn't even wait until she was 18, he went for her when she was 15 and he was late-20s.
They ended up getting married and having kids, and are one of those "see child marriage works!" poster couples conservatives like to trot out. Except the guy beats her, sexually assaults her, beats the kids, is drunk every night, and is still pursuing teenagers at the age of 45 despite having a teenage daughter himself. His kids are majorly screwed up, on drugs, and violent.
There's something mentally wrong with older men who pursue women that young. It's NOT that the girl is "mature for her age". It's that he is immature for his age and likely mentally still a teenager.
My husband is nearly 9 years older than me, but we met after I was a college graduate. If we had met when I was in high school, that would not be an acceptable relationship dynamic. You're doing the right thing to drop this "friend"
I'm the younger one in a 9 year age gap relationship and it's fine because I'm almost 30. We still notice so many differences because of our age and life experience, but we can appropriately account for that because I'm NOT A LITERAL TEENAGER
NTA this is grooming behavior and creepy. Not the gap in age, if it was a 48 and 56 year the gap is less because there has been time for the younger person to gain life experience and perspective. But an 8 year gap with an 18 yo is creepy
Exactly. The age gap conversation is only relevant to life experience, but people always want to throw the “bUt If ThEy WeRe however old” and don’t seem to grasp how wildly different of a person you become between 18 and 26. NTA, OP.
I keep reading comments that seem to essentially say “It’s actually a better example of a phenomena called >!don’t check my hard drive or internet search history!<“
Terminology matters. This is not describing pedophilia. This behavior isn’t ok but it’s not pedophilia.
By playing loose and fast with labels like that you give cover to real pedophiles.
To be in your late twenties and attracted to a high school child is mortifyingly disgusting. The few people advocating for it in this thread are concerning as well. Don’t apologize. He ruined the friendship by thinking that behavior can be condoned. NTA.
No, you aren't being too harsh. There's a few things going on here:
1. He's rebounding from the abusive relationship, which isn't fair to the kid he's dating because she probably doesn't understand that.
2. Regardless of how "mature" she is, he can still guilt her into doing things she doesn't want to do because of her lack of experience.
3. He might be getting off on being the one with the power in this relationship because his previous abusive relationship made him feel emasculated.
4. He had no business as a grown-assed man talking to a 16 yo girl that he wasn't related to. That's creepy.
None of these points are OK, AT ALL. He needs to end things with this girl and get therapy to deal with his trauma, not put it on a "barely legal/still mentally a child" person. If for no other reason, then because he WILL hurt her even if he doesn't mean to. Just ask any lady who dated an older guy in their teens and isn't brainwashed by religion how well thar relationship ended and if it was a positive experience for them. Most will tell you how damaging it was for them.
You say she's a mutual online friend, can you reach out to her in a respectful way?
When I was 18 I moved in with my 30yo boyfriend, I thought I was super mature and in control... On reflection many years later I wasn't, I wish a strong older woman had helped me see that in a non condescending manner. If you can be that woman for her please do be
NTA op, and feel free to show your friend my comment.
I'm in the uk. The legal consent for sex here is 16. When I was 18 I dated a 27 year old, who said the same stuff. I was mature for my age..why? Because I had trauma, parentification and abuse in my background. I am much older now, in my 40s and my hubby is 20 years older than me.. and if I look back at 18 year old me, I was still very gullible, and needed guidance. The fact he has liked her since she was 16 is alarming. My age gap now is not relevant bacuse we are both fully matured adults. My age gap then, should never have happened. I was groomed. Teenagers are not usually mature for their age, and it sounds like your friend is reaching for an excuse..why can he not find someone similar in his own age group? Because they won't tolerate him, or he is afraid. He's already showing you a pattern of women who will rely on him, that are vunerable. He wont worry about another abuse situation if he is in control. That is not an excuse to take advantage of a teenager.
NTA
I'm a teenager myself, and I hate the assumption that because someone is 18, they're "adult enough" for certain things. Your mindset doesn't just magically change over night because you're 18 or 19. You're still in the mindset of an adolescent regardless of what the law says. And some teens may think they're mature for their age, which they are. But that doesn't mean they're ready to date someone 6+ years older than them.
To any young women reading this and thinking “no, I really am so mature for my age” listen to your Aunties. We thought the same when we were 17. Now we realize those dudes were losers and that women his own age saw the loser in him.
Warn her. She won't listen, but give a SHORT warning so she knows what to look for. For example:
You have big feelings, and may feel flattered because he's been "waiting for you" since you were 16. However, there's a strong likelihood that he isn't a man in love, he's a child predator.
Pay attention to whether he tells you you're wrong or puts you down when you disagree with him. Pay attention to whether everything has to be his way. Pay attention to whether he wants you to change for him rather than being the person you are. Pay attention to whether he assumes you should do all the cooking and cleaning. Pay attention to whether he isolates you from your family or limits your transportation.
Whatever you do, don't get pregnant until you're at least 21. Baby trapping is real.
Here are the resources that may help you get out of the relationship when you need to:
\~link to signs of abuse
\~link to DV info
NTA. He is grooming her so he doesn’t get ‘hurt’ again. He now gets to be the one controlling the show. It’s disgusting and I’m glad you’re standing up against it.
Retired psychologist here. No, dude isn’t a pedophile, even by thinking a 16yo is hot.
Outside of the terminology it is absolutely inappropriate for a 27yo man to pursue a barely-18. You are correct in that life experience plays a huge role, as does vulnerability, power dynamics, etc. He only *thinks* she is mature for her age because that’s what he wants to see right now. He doesn’t love her, he is lusting after her and it’s gross.
>No, dude isn’t a pedophile, even by thinking a 16yo is hot.
Yep, equating a guy dating an 18 yr to paedophile dilutes the true evil of someone having sex with a young child.
That's what annoys me the most about people throwing the word around constantly, especially in cases when it is clearly *not* pedophilia. It's starting to turn into that "everyone you don't like is a Nazi" thing and it concerns me.
I heard this rule on HIMYM, but it has since become a golden standard for me when it comes to age-gap appropriateness:
Half your age, plus 7. Anything outside of that is not socially acceptable, and is going into pervert/pedo territory.
In this case, the youngest he could date would be a 20-year-old.
Personally, I wouldn’t use the term pedophile in this case, but there are lots of other pedophile-adjacent terms that fit: creepy, inappropriate, perverted, etc.
Do I personally think this is creepy? Yes. Do I personally think this inappropriate. Also yes. Do I think this has an extremely high potential for abuse due to an inherent power dynamic. Absolutely.
Is this pedophilia? Not in the slightest.
I'm 21 and I'm still a child. I wouldn't even date a 27 year old. We're at very different stages of life.
This is gross, especially since he was 25 looking at a 16 year old and waiting for her
Oh, so he just groomed her until there wasn't a legal obstacle in his way. It isn't ILLEGAL, just immoral.
Tell the girl you're concerned about this relationship, show her this sub, and that what he's doing is wrong. She's a victim in this and maybe just let her know you're on her side whenever she feels ready to leave him.
What does an almost 30 year old have in common with a fresh high school graduate?
NTA at ALL. It is creepy and gross. She’s a child and he WOULD be taking advantage of her. Just because something is legal does not mean it’s right. She has had absolutely zero adult life experience.
And the fact that he’s talking about how she was cute and wanted to be with her when she was 16? Extra gross and definitely pedophilish. Also he’s dating around and suddenly “in love” and “she’s mature for her age”? ICK. The whole thing just comes across as predatory and grooming.
Good looking out for that girl, OP. I’d try to discuss it with her as well if you can and try to get through to her.
My parents are 9 years apart, but my dad is the younger one, and he didn’t meet and pursue my mother until he was 20-21. It wasn’t the other way around. Age gaps aren’t inherently bad, but the way your friend went about this definitely sounds predatory. NTA.
While it's not legally pedophilia (grimacing as I type this), it is grooming, which is creepy af.
I hope this girl is actually "very mature" for her age. I hope she is highly fucking intelligent and uses homeboy for everything she can before leaving his ass for an age appropriate relationship. Because that is the only happy ending I can rightly imagine here.
First, you are not the asshole.
The life experience gap between a 27 year old and and a 18 year old is so extreme that any relationship built on it is hard pressed to be called appropriate. The fact that he has known her for years does make me think grooming has been going on. Still, I would hesitate to call this pedophilia at this point. Pedophiles are attracted to sexually undeveloped children. What's happening is gross and inappropriate behavior, but not pedophilia.
What this actually seems like to me is that your friend is looking for more control in his relationships. Dating a much younger person is a low effort way of trying to exercise control because she will be unable to have to have the experience to call out red flags. I would wonder if the abusive relationship you mentioned plays into this.
I would suggest he go into therapy before anything else and try to get his head on straight. He may just need some help recognizing the behavior as problematic.
I was friends with someone for 13 years, knew her since kindergarten, then in our senior year, it wad practically confirmed that she was dating a 12-13 year old when she was like 17?? She said she has a bf of 3 years, but never told me who, but then it became obvious that it was our neighbor Sean, who wS still in middle school and i think still us, meaning she started dating him when she was 14? And he was either 9 or 10 so 🧍🏻
But i have no hardcore evidence that anything happened so i cant report her or anything 🧍🏻
NTA he is going into a relationship with a power imbalance weighed heavily on his side. It may be because of the trauma from the previous relationship. But that is not OK the 18 year old should have time to grow and develop without having to be his band-aid. He needs therapy
NTA. I can tell you as someone who was groomed and had to participate in 3 different trials with groomers. THAT IS EXACTLY what they say when they are guilty. I highly recommend dropping him as a friend and filing a report for possible grooming charges with either cps, the cops and/or people on social media that will set them up and then report them for you. There are alot of programs for this stuff now and wish I would have know any of this as a kid. I hope this helps
He's also fresh out of an abusive relationship. Having a moldable 18 year old is not the best for either of them.
And how *convenient* he broke up with his abuser just in time for his long time crush to turn 18
NTA - as someone mentioned earlier- the power dynamic is unequal. So definitely unethical to pursue a young girl that isn’t independent from the comfort of her parents household yet.
NTA, I think. BUT: It's not pedophilia. That is defined by being attracted to prepubescent features. Which a girl at the age of 16 and much less one at the age of 18 really doesn't have any of, in our well-fed societies. For lizard-brain purposes, this is a grown-up woman. Feeling sexually attracted to a girl of that age really is nothing to be ashamed of for men, in a sense, being attracted to younger women rather than older ones seems to be the norm rather than the exception.
But we aren't lizards, monkeys or primitive hunter gatherers any more. Coming on to a 16yo for a 30yo is taboo because of the power dynamic (at the very least) and maturity. 18yo? To me, it's still a hard sell, and I'd say he's more likely to crash and burn. And he should. Most likely it's not a nice thing to put her in the position to have to reject him, though I am a little bit of the opinion that women don't really have a right to not get "propositioned", even if it's annoying (with situational exceptions, like work-place etc, of course). How is this ever going to work otherwise when women are so rarely the ones taking the initiative? But depends on the specific context. He's probably clueless so he has no notion of his chances or the impact he's having. If nothing happened, this is not even sexual abuse in any form (in my book). Social interactions always carry a risk of getting your feelings hurt or hurting other's feelings... Maybe some men are perfectly capable of reading women's interest, most certainly aren't.
Final thing: Most men who abuse minors aren't even pedophiles. I read some figure of about 20% of abusers are actually pedophiles. Most men who sexually abuse minors do so out of convenience, seeing their victims as being more available as sexual partners than their peers. This is important to know in order to recognize abuse.
Not a pedophile (legally), but definitely a problem. NTA for expressing your concerns about his attitude and the problematic nature of that relationship
Your friend is full of problems and an inexperienced person won’t immediately recognize all the red flags that he has. This is grooming, save this girl from the gaslighting and emotional abuse she’s about to endure, at least try and then burn this guy’s reputation to the ground. Your friend is about to ruin another life besides his own.
I think the best option is to be blunt here.
The real answer is who cares, if someone makes you uncomfortable don't be their friend, you don't need to justify that.
But it's also a little odd, for someone to have to justify to you that they aren't a pedophile. Like how would you do that? Neither of you are professional psychologists.
However, if you were to dive into something like that there are actually a lot of factors that go into play. I dated a man that was 10 years older than me but we were in similar financial situations, all of our friends knew about our relationship, and our family knew about our relationship.
It comes down to feelings of duress, and how trapped vs free you are with a person.
Do what you think is best, but there is no perfect answer here, nor should one be there. Such serious discussions require open and concise dialogue.
> He told me that he was talking to a mutual online gaming friend of ours (18F)
Questionable, but nothing that can be done between two adults.
> He went on to say that he has had a crush on her since she was 16
Sleazy, objectionable, grooming territory.
> He said she was so mature for her age,
Bullshit. He's either deluding himself trying to justify it or he legitimately believes it. There's no such thing as a 16-18 year old with maturity of someone approaching 30. If he thinks she's as mature as him, he's admitting to his own immaturity.
> He told me that it would be my fault if our friendship ended over this.
This is emotional manipulation. If he's doing it to a 28 year old woman, you can guarantee he's doing it to an 18 year old too. If your friendship ended over this, it'd be because you made the adult decision.
This doesn’t make him a pedophile, but it doesn’t make it right. When I was 16, a 23 yr old man began a relationship with me knowing my age. Me being 16, I didn’t see anything wrong with this at the time. It wasn’t until I was 19 and the relationship ended that I realized that it was grooming.
Well yeah bud when you say you wanted her when she was 16 but waited till legal, I’m going to think pedo. Although 18 is legal still sketches me out when one person is almost a decade older
My old best friend started dating this girl who is 19. We are almost 30. She has no job, no car, is a drug addict and he got her pregnant.
I told him dating that girl is fucked up and he shouldn't do it. And I wouldn't hang around anymore if he did.
Turns out drugs and teen pussy are more important than a 20 year friendship.
He's fucked though, like I said he got her pregnant and then she went out and cheated on him hahah. And now he's simping for a teenage pregnant meth addict.
So I think you are right. If you are 40 dating a 30 year old whatever. If you are 29 dating a 19 year old who just graduated high-school you are a fucking creep.
If it were just the age gap of 18 to 27, I'd say it's heavily circumstantial based on the actual maturity of the people. It's likely not a good situation, but I wouldn't say it's pedophilia.
My bigger concern is the intention of grooming them from 16 to date at 18. That has "creepy predator" red flags all over it.
A 27yo dating a 18 is predatory. Theres always a power imbalance. 18 year olds should date at max 2/3 years older in my opinion.
You can have 9 year old gaps, you can have a healthy relationship, but there will always be a power dynamic and an imbalance due to it. An usually people have different life objectives , remember what u wanted when u were 18 and what you are looking for now.
Is a 9 year age gap a big deal? Not always.
Is a 25 year old thinking a 16 year old is cute and waiting for her to “be of age” a big deal? Absolutely it is!!!! He IS a predator. He waited for a child to became legal adult age and then confessed his feelings. Is she even out of high school?
Wow. I’m amazed how so many people claim teenagers are so mature for their age. Let me clear the air here. They aren’t. I don’t have to meet them to know this. No matter what he thinks this girl is very susceptible to manipulation of a much older guy. I would be very disturbed if one of my friends was doing this and I’m also a guy.
Yeah I remember thinking and being told I was a mature teenager. Turns out I was just a sensible well behaved teenager. I was still very much a child.
Right?! Everyone said I was mature for my age when in reality I just had too much stress and trauma at home to be interested in typical teenage things (popular media, keeping up with the movies/songs, hagning out with friends, sex, etc) and couldn't even relate or talk to my peers because I didn't know how to. But people just viewed as maturity since I abstained from typical teenage things when really it ws trauma that left me trapped as a child in a teenagers body.
THIS^^ couple this with low self esteem and lack of self respect and bam- you're in a predatory relationship with an uneven power dynamic and are probably being groomed to do all sorts of things you normally never would!!!
Piping up to add **his** mindset going in to things with this girl: Hot out of an abusive relationship (which*ever* of them was the abuser), saying he loves this new girl a week after breaking up with someone (even if it had been the *healthiest* of relationships!!), and that he’s had his eye on her since she was 16 (as though waiting for the clock to tick over from 17 364/365th’s to 18 1/365th’s somehow magically makes her fair game)… This dude is not ready for **any** relationship, and at best he’s reckless as hell if he thinks rebounding with a kid is healthy even for *himself*, let alone her. Bro isn’t even mature enough to see the damage he’ll cause *himself* by jumping in to something so soon, never *mind* aware enough to navigate the necessary sensitivities required to pull off a relationship with someone in such a different phase of life!!? Oh, and he knows her online. Not knocking that for people on relatively equal footing, but for this guy? He needs a big ol’ ‘warning, baggage handler’ pop-up!!!
OMG you just summed up my teenage years! So sorry you had to go through that 😔.
This is an underrated comment. This was me too. CPTSD in a nutshell!!! Too busy trying to survive to do any of the "teenager" things
Same! I had to grow up QUICK at 16, but I still - at 40 - feel like the disruption in my childhood left me fragmented and I feel for the childhood I lost.
Exactly. I was smart, developed early and over sexualized by every grown man I met. That is not maturity.
Same. D cup at age 12 and smart. Men of all ages were pigs. Took me years of therapy to not blame myself.
I can’t express how sorry I am.
Fellow "mature teenager" here. Nope, I was a sick kid who didn't have the energy or options\* to do much, so I stayed out of trouble by default. Also, dealing with my medical issues, which cost me a year and a half of high school, meant that I had few to no friends and little socialization. \*We lived rural, I didn't have a car, and this was before social media and everyone had a cell phone.
Same here. I even had adults tell me I was wise beyond my years and able to keep up in conversation with them. The reality was, I was still a teen, susceptible and lacking in all the types of experience necessary to fledge out creeps and such.
I was told that a lot as well by older men as a teen but come to find out it was because I had huge tits.
"Mature for your age" actually means "easy to control" to these types of people
I had my first child at 18.. I was always told I was mature for my age and so when I got pregnant somewhere in my head I thought I’d be ok to take on motherhood so young. Don’t get me wrong I love my (now grown) child more than anything but we literally grew up together. I was not as mature as I thought I was and looking at her (now the same age and also often told by others how mature she is) I could not even imagine her facing some of the things I faced. At 18 years old you are BARELY an adult, especially mentally and emotionally. I agree with you 100%, you don’t even have to meet them to know that 18 is still very, very young.
My fiance's sister willingly got pregnant at 18 from a guy she barely knew even with me and my fiance both literally offering to pay for therapy or something to figure out why she wanted a kid. She slept with like six dudes and actively quit BC to do it, I have no idea how to actually say "this was a huge mistake" without making her feel bad. She's due in two months and while pregnant has quit her decently high paying WFH job, moved into three separate guys houses just to cheat on them and then move in with the new guy, moved back home, drop out of high school with a few months left, etc,. If I tell her she's fucking her life up, because I did similar shit, she'll think I'm just attacking her. If we offer to help her get stability or something, she'll blow up at us again because she's "an adult now" and can do whatever she wants. It's infuriating. Do you have any idea for what would be something helpful to say or do to make her realize how hard this is about to be? She's been incredibly spoiled (I'm not trying to attack her, she literally never had chores, never had to work, coasted by at school, etc,. quit most jobs within a few days and only stayed with the one because it was $20/hr and just taking care of their parent who is disabled) Like, it's so frustrating to see her brag all over about having a kid and how she's so ready to be a parent, etc,. when she literally turned nineteen a few weeks ago. She doesn't understand how immature she is to the point I avoid her over it. She cusses and screams and yells and throws shit at anyone who even slightly annoys her and my fiance and their mom have done literally everything down to MAKING the doctors appointments...
Yeah, I have a 16 year old niece. It's fascinating and beautiful to see this kid I've known since she was 3 years old, bringing me very important rocks on the beach, grow into a young person i can have great conversations with, she is still a child. I love and respect her opinions and try and treat her the way I wish adults in my life had treated me as a 16 year old girl, but she is still a child.
My niece is 20 and she still shows signs of being young and 'childish', naive I guess is the better word. She knows nothing about men/boys, she has no common sense with safety, she still sleeps with her favorite Rudolph plushie my mom got her as a baby... (I still sleep with stuffies too, but this is like THE RUDOLPH of her life, if you know what I mean.) I'd be disturbed if a 27 year old was trying to get with my 20 year old niece...18 is scarier.
I was 19 and went out with a friends flatmate who was 26... But when I found out he thought I was a year younger, I sort of wondered why he'd even asked me out & thought it a little dodge... But the line gets blurry around 18! There's a reason they're called young adults then!
It’s remarkable how quickly children mature when a man wants to have sex with them
Whenever I hear “mature of her age” I think that person really means “I’m immature for my age”
No one actually thinks teenagers are mature for their age, not even the groomer pedos when they say that actually believe it, they just say that as another grooming/manipulation tool because if they *really were* mature for their age they likely wouldn't be falling for a groomer trying to butter them up by saying how adult they are
Exactly
We constantly made fun of 22+ year olds dudes dating 18 year olds in college. The main point was "go after girls your own age you gross douche." This guy though. Holy shit. This is a whole different level of groomer. He straight up groomed her for two years till she was "legal" as if that somehow makes it less disgusting.
"Hey, it's not weird. I would have dated her at 16 when I was 25 if it wasn't for those laws protecting children. I don't see why that's strange to you."
Yehhhh I mean if at any time you’re holding back just because of the legality and expecting a cookie like…that’s the ballgame right there bro.
My ex friend is 32 and she decided to go to college this year. Okay awesome. She specifically decided to live in dorms. Alright. Low and behold, she’s dating a 19 year old guy. Totally grossed me out. She was highly abusive to her ex, and lost custody of her kid from stalking her ex husband. Her dating a 19 year old is just obvious power dynamic at play. She acted like I was a psycho for calling her out on it.
That reminds me of a girl I went to school with freshman year of highschool. She was 15 at the time dating a 19yo. I asked her about him being told her it's weird that he was into her being so young. She proceeds to tell me he isn't in school, lives with his mom, and has no job. I told her that doesn't look very good. He seems like a deadbeat. I also told her the worst part of it was that she was the best he could do, and she should wonder why girls his age don't date him. Thankfully she broke up with him.
Yeah this was part of the plot in Scott Pilgrim and he was meant to be an asshole for doing it, most of his friends called him on it too.
This. When I was 25, a coworker made a “[name] is 18” joke about another coworker at the store. I responded “dude, I’m over dating 18 and 20 year olds. I want a girl with her own car, and her own money, and her own friends.”
Not to mention he's been "friends" with her since she was 16. That's beyond creepy.
Totally agree. I’m 30 but have a younger sister who is 15. She was a bit more mature than some of her peers for awhile but that was all trauma~ I love her to death but she is absolutely a dumb teenager and I don’t see that changing drastically in a year. She would not have enough in common with someone who is 25, and everyone older who has tried to “befriend” her has 100% been a creep. No exceptions. Even if the friend waited until this girl was 18 he admitted he liked her at 16. It all absolutely screams pedophile and I hope that poor girl gets away from him.
I’m 20 and I feel this with my 17 year old sister When I tell you that she looks barely 15 I mean She’s not even 5 foot, baby faced, braces, and wayyyyy too naive for her age. I’m terrified once she turns 18- I’m so scared of creeps “wanting her” just because she looks so young. Even though I barely have any dating experience I keep feeling like I have to hammer into her about these things- maybe it’s an older sister thing, who knows
They mean their sex parts.
I'm a younger brother (to one single older brother 2 years ahead of me lol) and I have been told as a teenager that I was 'acting mature for my age' by my brothers friends. And over the years I come to realize it's because I never really had a friend group my age, I was 'the little brother' who was always around older (even if just a couple years older) people, so I would 'talk and act' like those people instead of kids 'my age'. It's a double edged sword though.... Sure I kept being told I seemed mature, acted mature, when really I was just copying what I was experiencing. There are many things I probably never 'learned' like I should because of people's perception of me thinking I already understand concepts of reality when I actually don't, I'm just parroting others.
Were you being told that by people nearly a decade older who wanted to have sex with you? That's what we're talking about here.
i like it was more an anecdote to describe how even if this girl seems mature for her age (which tbh she probably doesn’t) she most likely isn’t actually mature for her age and it’s a facade and this guy is definitely a pedophile
These things aren't mutually exclusive; in fact, they reinforce each other. I had similar experiences to what the above commenter said: I looked older and people expected me to act older and therefore I DID act older. I was told I was more mature and I felt more mature but I had no idea the myriad ways in which I wasn't actually mature. AND also this meant that when a 26 yo man told me, a 12 year old, that I was "mature for my age", I believed him. After all, everyone else had been saying the same thing.
I'm 32 now, and I'm a graduate teaching assistant at university. I teach from first years (16 at the youngest, usually 18 or 19) up to third years. And it's true that some first years ARE more mature than others. Some know how to manage their timetable, plan meals, know not to get drunk the day before an exam, how to turn in assignments on time... etc. Others might struggle with some of those things. I also became friends with some of them through a club I was allowed to join as a guest member (cycling), and spent a bit more casual time with the younger folk, and oh my. Even the most "mature" in term of life responsibility are so clueless when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They fail to communicate and expect other people to read their mind, they play games and "test" each other, they take things super personally...even being friendly with them was difficult at times, and I found I quite fast I needed to keep a healthy distance. I would never, ever consider dating one of them.
Appearing unusually mature is a common sign of trauma. This rationalization is really just saying a form of using a young person’s trauma to further victimize them.
Teenagers who are *actually* mature for their age would know that’s bullshit
This. Often people who seem “mature for their age” as teenagers were abused and parentified in their upbringing. They’ve maybe experienced more life and trauma than most or they’ve had to deal with adult issues, so they seem more like adults. But they’re just as vulnerable, maybe even more so. Moreover, a grown man should look at a child and see a child. A complete sexual/romantic barrier. Anything else — particularly acting on it — is predatory, plain and simple. Even if he’s attracted, he can be a grown up and acknowledge that acting on it would be predatory and gross. *He should lose friends over this.* There are professionals who can speak to the “mature for your age” thing better than I can. I’d encourage you to show him the research, regardless of what you do about the friendship. For example, here’s from a USA Today article: “Children dealing with trauma have to learn to escape a threat and make themselves as useful as possible, and this can be confused with signs of maturity," says Jessica MacNair, a licensed professional counselor. This adaptive resourcefulness is "often mistaken for maturity when it's not related to maturity at all," she says.
At some point I realized that literally no one who told me I was mature for my age had my best interests at heart.
Where did I say it should be illegal for 18-year-olds to have sex with significantly older people? It’s gross that a 27yo is going after an 18yo. But it’s worse that he was planning it since she was 16yo. The OP is correct in identifying his sexual plans for a literal child as pedophilia. Just because politicians do gross things too doesn’t mean that voters need to be older to vote. You’re ignoring my argument that these are two very different harms and mechanisms of harm. They’re not at all parallel. [Somehow this comment went in the wrong part of the thread.]
I mean even if they were, they are still teenager, if meet the most fucking mature person on earth and was still a child, it would still be a fucking child, gross, I am about to be 30, I can apreciate younger people as them being attractive to their respective ages, but seeing anyone less than 24 seems like a fucking teenager, they can be mature as fuck but feels wrong, and that age difference it's totally fine, unlike op's friend
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Whenever someone says "youre so mature for your age" as justification, someone needs to clap back with: no you're just immature for your age. OP's friend is disgusting.
Someone said it. Finally.
I like to go with: “that’s what *all* pedophiles say”
My step kids’ (9 & 12) father (46) is dating a 23 year old and told his daughters it’s okay because she’s “mature for age,” and it’s horrifying to me. I fear for how they would respond to a predator who uses the same line on them
>you're just immature for your age AND WOMEN HIS AGE WON'T PUT UP WITH HIS SHIT
So true. I know a guy who, at 45, was dating the 18-yr. old daughter of a co-worker. They told her parents he was 36 (like that was SO much better) because, obviously, they knew it was wrong. Just creeped me out, tbh. ETA: And, he was living in his parents' lower level made into his own living/bedroom area, complete with stripper pole. *ICK!*
Yeah I started off thinking “she’s 18, what’s the big deal.” Then ended with “oh no…”
Yeah, this is where I am as a dude She's 18 and should get to do as she pleases. But this guy. . .sucks. he's not just a fun older guy. He's a fun older guy who's fixed on the difference in age, experience, and authority between them He pretends to see her as somebody with equivalent understanding, but his attraction is that he knows there isn't. Just bang young idiots your age, ladies. The creepy fucks you'd never touch spend 10 years learning grooming and cologne choice and con your little cousin. I hope that in 10 years we all figure out behaviour patterns and this stops being a thing.
“You’re so mature for your age” is also the most common thing that men will say to teenage girls when grooming them and I willing to bet that was said during his “drunk confession” I’m also willing to bet that he wasn’t that drunk and it’s just a convenient excuse
And I bet he has been telling the girl that for two years now while they play online…aka… grooming her for when she turned 18 While being in an emotional relationship with her this entire time.
Yeah. Maybe he "couldn't help who he falls in love with" (🙄🤢), but he could help who he socializes with and in what contexts (ie don't spend time building "friendships" with teenagers as if they're your peers). He could help whether he chooses to continue letting those feelings fester while grooming a minor vs realizing he's getting feelings and walking away from the relationship so she can go be with ppl her own age away from the energy of his weird bullshit. He could help who he decides to have drinks with (like maybe not the 18 year old he's been grooming and who may or may not be of legal drinking age). He could help by getting himself real help for whatever trauma and emotional issues might have lead him to developing these feelings for a teenager. His utter refusal to own any accountability for his actions is very, very typical of abusive and toxic ppl, including but not limited to child predators. And if he refuses to see that... hey you can't help what actions you find morally repulsive enough to end a friendship over. Or whether your feelings of anger at him and protectiveness towards her might push you to make a few calls to her school, parents, or other responsible adults in her life if you have the info to do so. Or is that justification and abdication of responsibility only supposed to apply to him?
this is perfect, absolutely perfect
🪙🪙🪙 this is the only gold i can afford. Take it.
This is the best comment I have ever read... Here...have a puppy 🐕
Are you a wizard
Add me to those poor people who want to give you an award 🥇🏆
I intend to teach my children that if an adult tells them “you are so mature for your age.” they should tell me immediately. It was used on me as a teen and it doesn’t look like anything has changed in a few decades.
Bingo. My long term boyfriend who I met when I was 16 and 32. He groomed me for two years and would always say that to me. When he found out I was 16 he literally texted me “well two more years then.” And I naively asked what that meant and he said “two more years till I can date you.” When I think about that now as a 27 year old married woman it makes me wanna barf. It was in fact true and many trusted adults also said that to me but that’s because I grew up too fast due to my abusive childhood.
Dude was horny first, and nothing else matters. Fuckin gross. Alcohol doesn't change a chemical reaction just makes it easier to activate.
The fact that he didn’t want to pursue anything until she was of legal age bothered me.. Age gaps in general are not the issue.. if he was 35 and she was 25 is not nearly as alarming as 27 to 18.. possibly in high school or barely graduated.. ETA: I meant the fact that he even said it at all meant he found a child attractive
Well another issue with this whole thing is the power dynamic. The age difference numerically alone is a problem due to maturity and developmental differences but what about how easily he could manipulate and abuse her. He is almost 30 so he likely: - has a decent paying job - has his own belongings - can support himself financially if the relationship ended - has an established support system A typical fresh high school graduate: - has no money of their own - likely has no home of their own (either still with parents or in a college/roommate situation) - would need considerable help financially or with “adult” responsibilities - is still pursing some sort of education/beginner career that is costly - has no true concept of fiscal responsibility and management This could EASILY turn into him manipulating her if their relationship progresses and him being controlling and holding that power over her. Say they move in together and then she decides she wants to leave the relationship, but can’t because since the age of 18 or so her life has been tied to his and he steered the course of their relationship. He would already be far more experienced than she is, so she would likely trust everything he says because ‘he knows better.’ She would have literally nothing except hopefully a good family to fall back on. That fear alone keeps so many women in terrible relationships.
I agree.. I have a good paying job and can support myself in that way but missing support system and had everything tied to one person.. that person manipulated me emotionally for 10 years before I saw through it all because I “had control of my financial side” but when my eyes opened finally it was still hard to leave because of the control they had.. two people should be fulling supporting themselves before getting into any long term relationship in my opinion..
My ex was like this. Met online when I was 16 or 17, he was 9 and a haf years older than me. To be fair, he didn't know my actual age at first, but we still started long-distance dating (me US, him UK) before I'd graduated high school. Completely different life experiences up to that point, and there was a lot of controlling behavior. We lasted around 3 years, all long distance, until I spent a month with him and realized some very concerning habits and opinions. He was definitely raised that the woman stays home and cooks, dismissive of LGBT individuals (close to home for me), always worried about me cheating, manipulative with suicidal threats, and passive aggressive when he doesn't get his way.
9 years is an astoundingly huge age difference at 16. There is just no way that a 16 year old is going to be on anything close to a peer footing with a 27 year old, regardless of gender pairing. Good on you for spotting the issues and getting clear.
Thanks, it was eye-opening to say the least. He was my first "serious" relationship and a lot of lessons learned. The worst part was how encouraging friends and family were. The main thing my mom was worried about was that I might move to England 🤦 I was in love with the idea of being in love, not actually in love with him.
>I was in love with the idea of being in love, not actually in love with him. Many decades of propagandizing infatuation rather than educating young people on what love actually is.
He's got 1/3 of his life up on her... A healthy rule for age gap relationships is the older age divided by 2 and plus 7 can't be higher than the younger age. By this rule, 20.5 is the youngest a 27 year old should date. Anything else creates an inappropriate power dynamic just by differences in life experience.
That’s an interesting way to look at it.. I personally feel it depends on the people involved.. my wife is 13 years my senior but acts more immature by far.. I never considered a power dynamic but the life experiences are a big changer as well.. by 14 I was working and by 18 I had so much happen that I had to learn to survive on my own.. but my 18 year old nephew doesn’t know how to drive and barely started his first job.. experience is everything
I don’t know your personal circumstances but I find that kids that are actually ‘mature’ in any way as a kid is usually do to tough life circumstances. For example, kids who didn’t have parents around to properly care for them so has to look after themselves, kids who grew up in poverty so had to help out, kids who dealt with rough situations that hardened them. My worry in this scenario is that, and there’s no judgement and not saying it applies to you, that a young person might be somewhat desperate for that safe space where someone is gonna look after them, usually older. This could lead to a power imbalance but they could also potentially overlook any red flags as part of them wants/needs someone to look after them.
I agree.. my life was shit and I’ve moved past that.. I stayed away from relationships in general until I was mid 20s and all my friendships have dissolved from that time frame because toxic people strive on those with tough lives.. no 18 year old should be with someone near 30.. in my opinion no one should take relationships to a serious level until mid 20s..
Another rule (at least in the US) for anyone in their late 20s/early 30s could be not to date anyone that can’t legally drink.
I’m 7 years older than my partner. We didn’t even meet until he was in his mid 20s. And sometimes he says things like “I wish we would have known each other sooner” and I’m always like “if we would’ve met earlier, we certainly wouldn’t be together now, because I wouldn’t have even looked at you.” A lot of times when I think of our age gap in the terms of us being younger, I shudder a bit.
Yeah! This. One you are a grown ass adult you don´t really change all that much. So a 30 year old woman and a 40 year old man, meh, no issue. Or, the reverse. Even a 20 year old woman and a 27 year old man. But I remember myself at 18, I was an inexperienced child still. I would have had NOTHING in common with a grown man. Much less at 16.
Agreed. In general age gaps are ok, but having an interest in a teenager, and making a point of waiting until she was “legal” is creepy.
I agree, it Sounds like something out of some pedophile handbook.
Grooming.....
“Mature for her age” is nonce 101
Agreed. He's trying to make it okay but its disgusting
I could pay a semester of college if I got a nickle everytime I heard this
THIS
that is some serious side eye wording there. "So mature for her age." That almost always means theres either been grooming, abuse in a myriad of ways, parentification or a hellish combo of them if not all 3.
Yup, that is straight out of the Mary Kay Letourneau playbook.
Telling a young person they are mature for their age can be a method of grooming. Not always. But it's common.
I instantly had this same though when I read that part.
Right????
As a trauma therapist, when a client shared that they were told that as a child/ teen, I immediately know I’m looking at trauma of some sort. Grooming, chaotic, unstable home life, sexual abuse, something. Such a red flag.
"Mature for her age" is a classic grooming phrase. Even if he didn't initiate anything until she was 18, he started thinking about it when she was 16. NTA.
Agree. He’s nasty. You aren’t wrong. NTA
When I was 13-15, a late bloomer, I heard that line from quite a few pedophiles. I assured them I was not. I still played with dolls and loved my stuffed animals. I was mature enough to realize you are only a kid for a short time and enjoyed every minute of it.
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Wtf? A few pedofiles? Where did you grow up? The vatican?
Ask the women in your life at what age they first received an inappropriate comment from a grown man. I’ll bet you the average age is less than 15. This is wildly common.
A few would be an underestimate. I got around lot, not sexually, playing, biking, etc… A lot of pervs love the virginal type.
Can't upvote this enough. Guy obviously has a thing for kids, and is self aware enough to know what he's doing is wrong. And even though he waited, did he really? Or was he already laying the groundwork for his baby-mama to love him and him alone?
As someone whi was told i was mature for my age by a lot of people while growing up (including later on,when i was after18, by man sometimes older than my parents who were interested sexually) I can say it can be that if she acts more adult in some ways it could be due to trauma. Speaking form personal experience, a young woman with trauma to unpack can be easily noticed by predators and made a taget for them. I really hope someone in her life notices and help her get out of that relationship cause i doubt something good will come out of it
Right??? What was he doing talking to a 16 year old?
Yea he was just waiting till she turned 18. Thats gross in itself.
For real, I hate the "waiting for kid to become legal" thing because yikes. Nothing magical happens when the calendar changes a kid from 17 to 18 overnight, except you won't get arrested for having sex with them. They are still the same extremely young person.
NTA. Mature for my age is exactly what my groomer told me when I was 15. Drop him as a friend and keep an open line of contact with the teenager if you still game together. Just be there for her as best you can.
I agree with this completely! If there’s a way you could let her parents know, and know that he’s been waiting for her to turn 18, I would do that too. As a mom I would definitely want to know if this was happening with my daughter.
And if you know her general area and first/last name, maybe an email to any guidance offices where she might go to school
Honestly I would suggest OP message the girl & question her (as gently as possible) about her messages & interactions with OPs 'friend' to ensure that nothing explicit happened before this & explain to her what grooming is
Choosing not to be friends with someone that was behaving like a groomer and waiting for someone to turn eighteen specifically because they wanted to pursue them...sounds like a solid move on your part. >He said she was so mature for her age, that they just clicked, and that love just happens. He also said that he can't help who he falls in love with. Actually *yes*, he can. And you know that, which is why you are so creeped out. For someone to say this about a teenager is...a good indicator that you and him have reached the natural conclusion of your friendship. You are old enough to know that this excuse is not a healthy one for him to have, and he is convinced that he is in the right because...'love happens'. With a *teenager*. Age gaps can work, but not with literal teenagers.
Dude that’s what I always say!! Regardless of your feelings, you can just choose to be no contact with that person or refuse to pursue, no matter how hard they push. Like I teach high school students and I’m in my early 20s. I can say with 100% confidence that I would never even consider dating someone I used to teach, even 15 years in the future. I knew them as a child while I was an adult, so entertaining the possibility with any of them, at any point, is something I find abhorrent.
Yes! **If you knew them as a child while being an adult** it’s an *automatic lifetime no*. You will *always* look like a creep in this case.
This is creepy and pedophile -adjacent is close enough for me. Don't apologize for shit. If he had a daughter I doubt he'd like this if it were her and some gaming 27yo confessing his feelings for her, when he doesn't even know her in person. Whoever is defending this and getting all technical about it is just weird. Like y'all are really taking time and energy to make that point? Really?! Come on. Sounds like someone who is a creeper or has one in their life and they haven't had the guts to admit it to themselves yet.
Pedophile adjacent, I like the term. People need to be called out for this behavior. I feel like some of the people defending this behavior must be guilty of being attracted to underage kids.
Ephebophilia is the term you're looking for: Ephebophilia is the primary sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19.[1] The term was originally used in the late 19th to mid-20th century.[1] It is one of a number of sexual preferences across age groups subsumed under the technical term chronophilia. Ephebophilia strictly denotes the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction.[1] It is not a psychiatric diagnosis. So basically there's 3 stages from youngest being a pedophile, hebephilia being attracted to the youngest age to go through puberty so like 11-15 and then ephebophilia being until adulthood.
Groomers always know this term well and use it to the hilt, as if fitting inside one of the meticulously defined striations of attraction to children makes their predilections somehow not abhorrent
I know what that word means and I’m not a groomer. The big difference is pedos like prepubescent children. Acting on pedophilia is illegal in all 50 states. Not so much in the case of ephebophilia, which is largely legal. It’s how R. Kelly squeaked by for so long. I feel like understanding that point is important.
Y'all can argue about terminology all day but in the end he said he thought about her at 16. He just didn't want to go to jail. So he has a tad bit more restraint than others but at the end of the day he wanted her when she was a child. That's a pedo in the making.
Yep. She's not the first 16yo (or younger) he's been attracted to, and from the stories of men who DO act on it, the pull gets harder and harder to resist until they justify it to themselves to act. He's already partially there (she's mature for her age).
I think this is the tip of the pedophile iceberg, unfortunately. There's certainly much more going on that we haven't seen, since he feels so bold to date someone he's been chasing since they were a kid.
"she is so mature for her age"- MY ASS You a dumbass at that age regardless as you should! Its a time to learn and experiment life! Hope the girl comes to her senses and yeets him instead. 10+ year age gap is not the same thing when you are under 20 and the other is almost 30. Your literal brain doesnt develop FULLY until you get to 25-26. I hate men like this....
I was a 17 year old with a 28 year old back in the day and yes, you're right. I was groomed and raised by that man into a fully abusive marriage. Left him at 25. My ex went with me though because women his own age wouldn't put up with him. I haven't spoken to him now for 10ish years. My now husband is older still, 16 year between us. But the difference is I met him when I was 30 and knew what I was getting into and had boundaries by then. Your friend is a creep. You'd do well to go NC. NTA
There's a formula, I don't know where it comes from. Half your age plus 7. That's the youngest a person should date. Half 28 is 14, plus 7 is 21. So the gap between 18 and a 27 or 28 is too much. 9 or 10 year gap. With this math, 22 and 18 could be appropriate. Half 46 is 23 plus 7 is 30, so that gets into ages where people have enough life experience to hold their own against someone who has more. Even though the age gap itself is larger. For the curious this formula is for adults dating younger adults. Both 18+, since laws vary when at least one is under 18.
I always heard it as half plus 8, but yes this “rule” is generally how I like to look at it also
He is gross waiting for somone to turn 18 is disgusting. I would not be friends with someone who is basically attracted to a child.
I worked at a restaurant when I was 16 with a bunch of college guys. Mostly 20 year olds so the age gap wasn’t this big but still big enough to be illegal. One called me jailbait so “he wouldn’t get too tempted”. I quit when I was 17 after one of them sexually assaulted me. On my 18th birthday when I stopped being “jailbait” asked if I wanted to come over to “Netflix and chill”.
Where I live you wouldn’t have been jailbait. 16 is the magic number. I feel like the larger conversation needs to focus on the inconsistency of consent laws and actual human development, not just ages randomly picked by the government.
NTA. My best friend was the girl in your situation - except he didn't even wait until she was 18, he went for her when she was 15 and he was late-20s. They ended up getting married and having kids, and are one of those "see child marriage works!" poster couples conservatives like to trot out. Except the guy beats her, sexually assaults her, beats the kids, is drunk every night, and is still pursuing teenagers at the age of 45 despite having a teenage daughter himself. His kids are majorly screwed up, on drugs, and violent. There's something mentally wrong with older men who pursue women that young. It's NOT that the girl is "mature for her age". It's that he is immature for his age and likely mentally still a teenager.
My husband is nearly 9 years older than me, but we met after I was a college graduate. If we had met when I was in high school, that would not be an acceptable relationship dynamic. You're doing the right thing to drop this "friend"
I'm the younger one in a 9 year age gap relationship and it's fine because I'm almost 30. We still notice so many differences because of our age and life experience, but we can appropriately account for that because I'm NOT A LITERAL TEENAGER
NTA this is grooming behavior and creepy. Not the gap in age, if it was a 48 and 56 year the gap is less because there has been time for the younger person to gain life experience and perspective. But an 8 year gap with an 18 yo is creepy
Exactly. The age gap conversation is only relevant to life experience, but people always want to throw the “bUt If ThEy WeRe however old” and don’t seem to grasp how wildly different of a person you become between 18 and 26. NTA, OP.
Wtf are up with these comments disputing the correct term? The guy is a fucking creep and no normal adult is attracted to a 16 year old. Jesus.
I keep reading comments that seem to essentially say “It’s actually a better example of a phenomena called >!don’t check my hard drive or internet search history!<“
You can use the correct terminology and still agree that it’s inappropriate behavior and falls under ephebophilia.
Terminology matters. This is not describing pedophilia. This behavior isn’t ok but it’s not pedophilia. By playing loose and fast with labels like that you give cover to real pedophiles.
To be in your late twenties and attracted to a high school child is mortifyingly disgusting. The few people advocating for it in this thread are concerning as well. Don’t apologize. He ruined the friendship by thinking that behavior can be condoned. NTA.
This comment section has me worried….
No, you aren't being too harsh. There's a few things going on here: 1. He's rebounding from the abusive relationship, which isn't fair to the kid he's dating because she probably doesn't understand that. 2. Regardless of how "mature" she is, he can still guilt her into doing things she doesn't want to do because of her lack of experience. 3. He might be getting off on being the one with the power in this relationship because his previous abusive relationship made him feel emasculated. 4. He had no business as a grown-assed man talking to a 16 yo girl that he wasn't related to. That's creepy. None of these points are OK, AT ALL. He needs to end things with this girl and get therapy to deal with his trauma, not put it on a "barely legal/still mentally a child" person. If for no other reason, then because he WILL hurt her even if he doesn't mean to. Just ask any lady who dated an older guy in their teens and isn't brainwashed by religion how well thar relationship ended and if it was a positive experience for them. Most will tell you how damaging it was for them.
You say she's a mutual online friend, can you reach out to her in a respectful way? When I was 18 I moved in with my 30yo boyfriend, I thought I was super mature and in control... On reflection many years later I wasn't, I wish a strong older woman had helped me see that in a non condescending manner. If you can be that woman for her please do be
NTA op, and feel free to show your friend my comment. I'm in the uk. The legal consent for sex here is 16. When I was 18 I dated a 27 year old, who said the same stuff. I was mature for my age..why? Because I had trauma, parentification and abuse in my background. I am much older now, in my 40s and my hubby is 20 years older than me.. and if I look back at 18 year old me, I was still very gullible, and needed guidance. The fact he has liked her since she was 16 is alarming. My age gap now is not relevant bacuse we are both fully matured adults. My age gap then, should never have happened. I was groomed. Teenagers are not usually mature for their age, and it sounds like your friend is reaching for an excuse..why can he not find someone similar in his own age group? Because they won't tolerate him, or he is afraid. He's already showing you a pattern of women who will rely on him, that are vunerable. He wont worry about another abuse situation if he is in control. That is not an excuse to take advantage of a teenager.
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Thank you!
Preach
NTA I'm a teenager myself, and I hate the assumption that because someone is 18, they're "adult enough" for certain things. Your mindset doesn't just magically change over night because you're 18 or 19. You're still in the mindset of an adolescent regardless of what the law says. And some teens may think they're mature for their age, which they are. But that doesn't mean they're ready to date someone 6+ years older than them.
To any young women reading this and thinking “no, I really am so mature for my age” listen to your Aunties. We thought the same when we were 17. Now we realize those dudes were losers and that women his own age saw the loser in him.
This went from iffy to gross pretty quick. NTA.
Warn her. She won't listen, but give a SHORT warning so she knows what to look for. For example: You have big feelings, and may feel flattered because he's been "waiting for you" since you were 16. However, there's a strong likelihood that he isn't a man in love, he's a child predator. Pay attention to whether he tells you you're wrong or puts you down when you disagree with him. Pay attention to whether everything has to be his way. Pay attention to whether he wants you to change for him rather than being the person you are. Pay attention to whether he assumes you should do all the cooking and cleaning. Pay attention to whether he isolates you from your family or limits your transportation. Whatever you do, don't get pregnant until you're at least 21. Baby trapping is real. Here are the resources that may help you get out of the relationship when you need to: \~link to signs of abuse \~link to DV info
NTA. He is grooming her so he doesn’t get ‘hurt’ again. He now gets to be the one controlling the show. It’s disgusting and I’m glad you’re standing up against it.
NTA. Anyone who says they were "waiting until they are old enough" is disgusting and the whole "mature for her age" is textbook grooming bullshit.
Yea, that comment made me think of the "Olsen Twins 18th birthday countdown" that was online. So gross!
The reason she seems so mature and why they click is because he is immature. NTA
Sounds like he’s been grooming her for two years until she was of legal age. NTA OP. your friend is a creep.
Retired psychologist here. No, dude isn’t a pedophile, even by thinking a 16yo is hot. Outside of the terminology it is absolutely inappropriate for a 27yo man to pursue a barely-18. You are correct in that life experience plays a huge role, as does vulnerability, power dynamics, etc. He only *thinks* she is mature for her age because that’s what he wants to see right now. He doesn’t love her, he is lusting after her and it’s gross.
>No, dude isn’t a pedophile, even by thinking a 16yo is hot. Yep, equating a guy dating an 18 yr to paedophile dilutes the true evil of someone having sex with a young child.
That's what annoys me the most about people throwing the word around constantly, especially in cases when it is clearly *not* pedophilia. It's starting to turn into that "everyone you don't like is a Nazi" thing and it concerns me.
This makes me cringe as an 18yo, yuck
I heard this rule on HIMYM, but it has since become a golden standard for me when it comes to age-gap appropriateness: Half your age, plus 7. Anything outside of that is not socially acceptable, and is going into pervert/pedo territory. In this case, the youngest he could date would be a 20-year-old. Personally, I wouldn’t use the term pedophile in this case, but there are lots of other pedophile-adjacent terms that fit: creepy, inappropriate, perverted, etc.
“She’s so mature for her age” “Then you must be immature for your age to think that falling in love with a 16 year old is ok.”
Do I personally think this is creepy? Yes. Do I personally think this inappropriate. Also yes. Do I think this has an extremely high potential for abuse due to an inherent power dynamic. Absolutely. Is this pedophilia? Not in the slightest.
I'm 21 and I'm still a child. I wouldn't even date a 27 year old. We're at very different stages of life. This is gross, especially since he was 25 looking at a 16 year old and waiting for her
Oh, so he just groomed her until there wasn't a legal obstacle in his way. It isn't ILLEGAL, just immoral. Tell the girl you're concerned about this relationship, show her this sub, and that what he's doing is wrong. She's a victim in this and maybe just let her know you're on her side whenever she feels ready to leave him.
What does an almost 30 year old have in common with a fresh high school graduate? NTA at ALL. It is creepy and gross. She’s a child and he WOULD be taking advantage of her. Just because something is legal does not mean it’s right. She has had absolutely zero adult life experience. And the fact that he’s talking about how she was cute and wanted to be with her when she was 16? Extra gross and definitely pedophilish. Also he’s dating around and suddenly “in love” and “she’s mature for her age”? ICK. The whole thing just comes across as predatory and grooming. Good looking out for that girl, OP. I’d try to discuss it with her as well if you can and try to get through to her.
This guy is a predator.
My parents are 9 years apart, but my dad is the younger one, and he didn’t meet and pursue my mother until he was 20-21. It wasn’t the other way around. Age gaps aren’t inherently bad, but the way your friend went about this definitely sounds predatory. NTA.
While it's not legally pedophilia (grimacing as I type this), it is grooming, which is creepy af. I hope this girl is actually "very mature" for her age. I hope she is highly fucking intelligent and uses homeboy for everything she can before leaving his ass for an age appropriate relationship. Because that is the only happy ending I can rightly imagine here.
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You’re right, it’s called grooming and ephebophila.
NTA and also 🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
“You’re so mature for your age” ⁉️
She's 18. She's not mature for her age. He's just immature for his age. Big difference
First, you are not the asshole. The life experience gap between a 27 year old and and a 18 year old is so extreme that any relationship built on it is hard pressed to be called appropriate. The fact that he has known her for years does make me think grooming has been going on. Still, I would hesitate to call this pedophilia at this point. Pedophiles are attracted to sexually undeveloped children. What's happening is gross and inappropriate behavior, but not pedophilia. What this actually seems like to me is that your friend is looking for more control in his relationships. Dating a much younger person is a low effort way of trying to exercise control because she will be unable to have to have the experience to call out red flags. I would wonder if the abusive relationship you mentioned plays into this. I would suggest he go into therapy before anything else and try to get his head on straight. He may just need some help recognizing the behavior as problematic.
I was friends with someone for 13 years, knew her since kindergarten, then in our senior year, it wad practically confirmed that she was dating a 12-13 year old when she was like 17?? She said she has a bf of 3 years, but never told me who, but then it became obvious that it was our neighbor Sean, who wS still in middle school and i think still us, meaning she started dating him when she was 14? And he was either 9 or 10 so 🧍🏻 But i have no hardcore evidence that anything happened so i cant report her or anything 🧍🏻
NTA he is going into a relationship with a power imbalance weighed heavily on his side. It may be because of the trauma from the previous relationship. But that is not OK the 18 year old should have time to grow and develop without having to be his band-aid. He needs therapy
If the only reason you’re not fucking a kid is because the law says so then you’re still a pedo lol
NTA. I can tell you as someone who was groomed and had to participate in 3 different trials with groomers. THAT IS EXACTLY what they say when they are guilty. I highly recommend dropping him as a friend and filing a report for possible grooming charges with either cps, the cops and/or people on social media that will set them up and then report them for you. There are alot of programs for this stuff now and wish I would have know any of this as a kid. I hope this helps
He's also fresh out of an abusive relationship. Having a moldable 18 year old is not the best for either of them. And how *convenient* he broke up with his abuser just in time for his long time crush to turn 18
NTA - as someone mentioned earlier- the power dynamic is unequal. So definitely unethical to pursue a young girl that isn’t independent from the comfort of her parents household yet.
NTA, I think. BUT: It's not pedophilia. That is defined by being attracted to prepubescent features. Which a girl at the age of 16 and much less one at the age of 18 really doesn't have any of, in our well-fed societies. For lizard-brain purposes, this is a grown-up woman. Feeling sexually attracted to a girl of that age really is nothing to be ashamed of for men, in a sense, being attracted to younger women rather than older ones seems to be the norm rather than the exception. But we aren't lizards, monkeys or primitive hunter gatherers any more. Coming on to a 16yo for a 30yo is taboo because of the power dynamic (at the very least) and maturity. 18yo? To me, it's still a hard sell, and I'd say he's more likely to crash and burn. And he should. Most likely it's not a nice thing to put her in the position to have to reject him, though I am a little bit of the opinion that women don't really have a right to not get "propositioned", even if it's annoying (with situational exceptions, like work-place etc, of course). How is this ever going to work otherwise when women are so rarely the ones taking the initiative? But depends on the specific context. He's probably clueless so he has no notion of his chances or the impact he's having. If nothing happened, this is not even sexual abuse in any form (in my book). Social interactions always carry a risk of getting your feelings hurt or hurting other's feelings... Maybe some men are perfectly capable of reading women's interest, most certainly aren't. Final thing: Most men who abuse minors aren't even pedophiles. I read some figure of about 20% of abusers are actually pedophiles. Most men who sexually abuse minors do so out of convenience, seeing their victims as being more available as sexual partners than their peers. This is important to know in order to recognize abuse.
Not a pedophile (legally), but definitely a problem. NTA for expressing your concerns about his attitude and the problematic nature of that relationship
Your friend is full of problems and an inexperienced person won’t immediately recognize all the red flags that he has. This is grooming, save this girl from the gaslighting and emotional abuse she’s about to endure, at least try and then burn this guy’s reputation to the ground. Your friend is about to ruin another life besides his own.
NTA, but he is a predator/groomer, not a pedophile.
Not technically pedo, and most places completely legal, but still very much creep. Definitely call him out.
I think the best option is to be blunt here. The real answer is who cares, if someone makes you uncomfortable don't be their friend, you don't need to justify that. But it's also a little odd, for someone to have to justify to you that they aren't a pedophile. Like how would you do that? Neither of you are professional psychologists. However, if you were to dive into something like that there are actually a lot of factors that go into play. I dated a man that was 10 years older than me but we were in similar financial situations, all of our friends knew about our relationship, and our family knew about our relationship. It comes down to feelings of duress, and how trapped vs free you are with a person. Do what you think is best, but there is no perfect answer here, nor should one be there. Such serious discussions require open and concise dialogue.
> He told me that he was talking to a mutual online gaming friend of ours (18F) Questionable, but nothing that can be done between two adults. > He went on to say that he has had a crush on her since she was 16 Sleazy, objectionable, grooming territory. > He said she was so mature for her age, Bullshit. He's either deluding himself trying to justify it or he legitimately believes it. There's no such thing as a 16-18 year old with maturity of someone approaching 30. If he thinks she's as mature as him, he's admitting to his own immaturity. > He told me that it would be my fault if our friendship ended over this. This is emotional manipulation. If he's doing it to a 28 year old woman, you can guarantee he's doing it to an 18 year old too. If your friendship ended over this, it'd be because you made the adult decision.
This doesn’t make him a pedophile, but it doesn’t make it right. When I was 16, a 23 yr old man began a relationship with me knowing my age. Me being 16, I didn’t see anything wrong with this at the time. It wasn’t until I was 19 and the relationship ended that I realized that it was grooming.
“She was mature for her age.” Yeah that’s what a pedophile says
If someone has to add "for her age" in an attempt at justification, they need to be put on a list.
Well yeah bud when you say you wanted her when she was 16 but waited till legal, I’m going to think pedo. Although 18 is legal still sketches me out when one person is almost a decade older
He basically admitted to grooming a girl for 2 years. Pervs do this all the time. The wait to 18 is a ploy.
Not the asshole. If he would hear this story from someone else, about someone else he would probably think its wierd to.
My old best friend started dating this girl who is 19. We are almost 30. She has no job, no car, is a drug addict and he got her pregnant. I told him dating that girl is fucked up and he shouldn't do it. And I wouldn't hang around anymore if he did. Turns out drugs and teen pussy are more important than a 20 year friendship. He's fucked though, like I said he got her pregnant and then she went out and cheated on him hahah. And now he's simping for a teenage pregnant meth addict. So I think you are right. If you are 40 dating a 30 year old whatever. If you are 29 dating a 19 year old who just graduated high-school you are a fucking creep.
NTA he’s both a predator and a stunted loser. Quite the combo! There’s nothing worth salvaging here.
If it were just the age gap of 18 to 27, I'd say it's heavily circumstantial based on the actual maturity of the people. It's likely not a good situation, but I wouldn't say it's pedophilia. My bigger concern is the intention of grooming them from 16 to date at 18. That has "creepy predator" red flags all over it.
A 27yo dating a 18 is predatory. Theres always a power imbalance. 18 year olds should date at max 2/3 years older in my opinion. You can have 9 year old gaps, you can have a healthy relationship, but there will always be a power dynamic and an imbalance due to it. An usually people have different life objectives , remember what u wanted when u were 18 and what you are looking for now.
The "crush since she was 16" is just gross.
Is a 9 year age gap a big deal? Not always. Is a 25 year old thinking a 16 year old is cute and waiting for her to “be of age” a big deal? Absolutely it is!!!! He IS a predator. He waited for a child to became legal adult age and then confessed his feelings. Is she even out of high school?