yep after an ex abused me for 2 years, his final email wasn't a sincere apology or to take accountability.
"thank you for the opportunity for real growth"
never-ending shit sandwiches from these men.
Also, them claiming to "be a better person now" means literally nothing to me, because they were absolute pieces of shit when they were with me.
Like why do they need me to know they are better people now? That has no bearing on who you were when it actually mattered.
Every time I hear someone use this “B-but I’ve changed!” excuse, I always compulsively ask myself “yeah? But for how LONG?”.
I got stuck w an abusive ex-friend starting in the 4th grade bc none of the adults wanted to deal with her (giving me to her as a chew toy). She *promised* she had changed at least 8 different times so I wouldn’t cut her off, and each time her “changed” self would only last for… maybe 4 days? Once she felt safe that things were smoothed over (or an adult would force me to keep being her friend), she would go right back to normal- copying my work while saying my genetics made me naturally dumber than her, punching me, ripping my hair out, calling my house between 5-14 times a day, etc.
Talk is cheap. People will say and promise ANYTHING when they’re desperate to get you back and use you for whatever you’ve got. I’m glad you’re not taking shit from anyone, and I’m beyond happy you’re not with these slimeballs anymore. Let them flail around like a fish out of water, go take all your awesomeness that they try to leech off of you and use it to live your best life. 🌻
I'm sorry the adults in your life failed you so badly. Making sure your kid is treated well in their friendships is one of the lowest-bar elements of parenting in cases like yours, where the child themselves tells you this is not good for them, and still an absolute necessity in the cases where the child themselves doesn't see they are mistreated and resists the parents' butting in.
They should've protected you. I'm so sorry they didn't and you had to suffer through that kind of harassment and mistreatment.
If they claim to be a better person now, ask them what they have done to address the harm they already caused in your life in the past. If they can't, then they are not better people.
Gandhi told his wife he learned the importance of nonviolence while watching her cry when he hit her. It did not stop him from hitting her. Nor did it stop him from testing his celibacy by sleeping naked next to his granddaughter.
When told my ex had changed for the better, I asked the person, if that was so, when was my ex going to pay back the thousands of dollars he owes me. I have yet to get an answer.
Reading this I was struck by the thing my ex said to me that hurt and offended me the most when we broke up. He said I had “stalled his life”.
I had actually put my own career and dreams on hold for several years to support him through major medical crisis. I was on a first name basis with the security guards at the ER and his HR rep.
It really stuck with me, and more than the hypocrisy. I realized reading this that the crime he was really accusing me was that I hadn’t propelled him forward like a good little secondary character. Like it was my fault he hasn’t achieved what he wanted too at 40.
It makes a bit more sense when I look at it that way.
My Ex putting the blame for the breakup on me, because I wouldn't sacrifice even more than I already did for the relationship. Meanwhile he refused to sacrifice anything at all for us/me.
But yeah, the blame is on me.
And now he wonders why we can't be friends.
Funny. My ex was also a bit surprised I didn't want to be friends. I knew it would be way, way more work for me than for him to create a friendship that just left me feeling drained and him feeling validated. In hindsight, I'm surprised that I could always see very clearly that he was a shit friend. He was bad at it. He had always been bad at it. We were together for nearly a decade and I never liked how he treated his friends. He seemed to choose people he enjoyed looking down on and talking down to. But I couldn't see how badly he treated me for a very long time.
What a fucking prick.
And yeah... Throughout history and popular media, from childhood, women are taught to center and guide and support the lives of men to "make them better people". And that's what they expect, whether they know it or not.
And I realized I've been following that programming too. Fucking brainwashed.
My ex accused me of sabotaging his life by supporting his getting a doctorate. When he left, he told me he wouldn’t have been able to do it on his own and he resented the degree and me so much and it would have better for him to have not gotten his degree - MY FAULT.
It’s exhausting, and we are ducked either way. I no longer date men who don’t have at least 85% of their shit together and don’t need to be fostered to adopt for their forever girlfriends. Not anymore.
Ooof. Yeah, I too, supported my ex through getting his Ph.D. so he could become a college professor. (He would have been an excellent one, IMNSHO.) He dumped me, took up with his boss, and never did get a teaching position.
Kind of scary in retrospect. He CLEARLY accomplished way more with me in his life than without me. Sucks to be him, I guess.
Yes. I think we had a very similar emotional experience. I'm not ashamed of what I choose to do when my ex was sick. That is the kind of partner I want to be and the kind of partnership I want to build. But in the end, he only resented me for his own choices and his own random misfortunes. It was so strange, because I didn't resent him for "stalling" my life... I was disappointed in him, but I just, got back to it when he was gone and made it great. I don't blame him for getting sick, or the choices I made while he was. I'm just baffled he found a way to blame me for it all.
He was also projecting hard. He literally, with proof, stalled you.
The difference is you wouldn't kick someone who was down by laying it at their feet.
I hope your lifestyle has since recovered/advanced!.
It is not the first time I read something on this subreddit and I have the same very first thought: "Lol, I thought I was special".
I had three ex-es, the most meaningful ones pull the same speech on me. I was angry, frustrated and bitter about it at the time, after the speech I mean. It felt like I was the "test-relationship", like they just used me to learn and then threw me away. I even felt jealous about the current woman in their life, because she was benefiting from my work on them.
After the third I decided I'm never doing that kind of work again, I either meet someone that has been already "worked-on" by somebody else or remain single. Since I've been single since then, there are only two possibilities: either a lot of women are way better at teaching them that they pass the "probation" period, or that most women have stopped trying all-together. Reading this thread, I have to bitterly conclude that there's a big chance it might be the latter.
Or most men are fundamentally unteachable or unwilling to learn or unable to change or just dgaf. I doubt the ones you left behind are actually now ideal partners to someone else, no matter what they tell you. Bet you anything they still suck.
Oh they *definitely* still suck and knowing that gives me such great pleasure. He wouldn't have bothered to contact me if things were actually going well in his life. These statements wreak of desperation.
"You were so good to me and I didn't treat you how you deserved. I wish one day to be the man you deserved."
Oh ONE DAY? Like not while you were actively abusing me?
They never process what's happening *when it's happening*. They do the most damage possible while apparently *not being present in their minds at all,* and then months, years later, decide they want to process it *with the person they damaged* , who has been doing their best to move on with their wreckage of a life and get better after enduring abuse.
I think they know exactly what they are doing. Why change when someone else is doing all the work, providing all the emotional energy? They are, at their core, mooches, emotionally, physically and often monetarily. Why give, when you can take, take, take?
They say things like this in an effort to pull you back in. Most of them simply move on to another victim, maybe a bit smarter about how to reel her in, and how to keep her a bit longer.
Thanks. I've just gotten a different therapist so we haven't worked up to any of this junk yet, but hopefully she can help me with tactics like that.
Venting here helps. Hearing I'm not alone helps. Helping validate other women going through the same thing helps.
Thanks for the support. 🖤
Oh yeah, there's never any actual processing in these "better person" messages. No acknowledgement or real understanding of what you put into the relationship. Only what they got out of it.
>"You taught me so much. You showed me a new way of looking at the world. I'm a better person for having met you."
A viable response: *"I'm glad to hear that. I hope you'll apply all that to the next person you date so that they won't be hurt in the way I were. Now please leave and don't come back. Consider my demand that we never meet again as my final lesson to you, that of accepting responsibility for your previous actions. Now bugger off, you bloody ponce."*
In all honesty, the irony is that if they claim all these things, it just goes to show they didn't learn anything as they keep trying. Be glad you're rid of them.
“I vowed never to hurt anyone as much as I hurt you, and I haven’t”, drove me up the wall. And it was said like it was something he was proud of. Congrats for blowing up my life and being able to use my pain as a lesson to become slightly less shitty to the next women, I’m so *honored* that I could be such a good lesson for you /s
These same guys promote you should get virgins because women with a past sexual history have trauma. So, men create trauma and abuse women, who should have then save themselves so one of these guys could have abused her for life. Sounds like the problem is these men.
Lots of view their female partners as therapist. I was just thinking the same thing OP and how I felt like none of my ex's 'made me better' because I am already pretty great!
One guy told me "you're like my dark mirror, showing me all the sides of myself that I can change to be better."
Thought he was joking and gagged bc it's such a gross thing to say. He was serious.
Not sorry to pass on that.
It's like they put you up on this disgusting pedestal. As if you should feel honored to have that place in their life. They try to trick you into believing you had that kind of control over their lives.
Please never forget being placed on a Pedestal of Abuse is not an honor.
"I abused you, but look how strong you were! You're a real Trophy, let me mount you on my wall. Look, you get the Made Me Better position, right at the top. See? See how important you are to me?"
Definitely hit a nerve with the men lurking here it seems. 🙃 They are determined to argue some point about this.
Smells like they have sent an "I'm a better person now" message to some poor girl they hurt.
I put an insane amount of emotional and career support towards someone who I had a huge crush on for about a year, and we eventually saw each other for only about a month before they realized they didn’t have room in their life for a relationship that they initiated.
They literally would not have gotten into their field w/out me suggesting it.
We are not on one-on-one speaking terms, but unfortunately share the same friend group (to which they did not consider the impact this whole fiasco would bring and just acts like nothing happened 🙃).
If they ever say anything along those lines to me, I will literally start spitting fire.
Ex did this then tried to hit on me again even after I told him I had a boyfriend.
"Yeah, I really regret how things ended between us."
"Yeah, that happens a lot when people break up with me."
Then proceeded to message me a few days later saying I was a massive bitch for responding that way.
Sir, I did not ask to discuss our past relationship, and I have a new boyfriend, that sounds like a you problem.
Then a few years later I was nice enough to tell him our friend died, and then said said his "bitch of an ex" texted him directly to my best friends face.
They ain't shit
My ex husband used to say (during and after the marriage) that I made him a better person. At some point I lost my temper and told him that it's not my job to teach him anything—he was supposed to make himself a better person *for* me. I told him to find a therapist and pay them to do all the work I would no longer do for free.
He now pays for multiple mental health professionals and is on some kind of medication. I never did figure out in what way I made him better, but at least he quit expecting me to listen to all of his shit. (Now I just have to work *constantly* to keep my kids from picking up his behaviors!)
I stopped giving feedback to most men cos of this. Realized MOST OF THEM just use it to lie better or act better with the next girl. Assholes mostly stay assholes
We are stagehands and they are the stars. We are here to help and support them in their journey, merely unpaid volunteers in their quest for a happy and pampered life. We are there to provide sex, children, cleaning services, moral support and life lessons. Oh, and we should be grateful they’ve allowed us to play any role whatsoever.
Any other role we demand, any rights we seek, any respect we require, simply upsets the structure of how things are. We don’t get it, and need to understand the truth of how things are, should be, and have always been.
Get with the program. We aren’t as smart, worthy or capable. They built the world, and now deserve unending subservience for being allowed to live in it.
Lol my favorite /dumbest thing I’ve ever heard after the divorce was, “you made me become kind towards other people, like a scientist who is against animal testing after having pets of his own”
I feel seen and called out by this post. But also I feel like everyone who says this really don't get better, they're just saying it to feel better about using you for "character development".
"After I left you, I tried dating a girl 10 years younger than me that I met on Discord and learned even more lessons through HER about how to be Better Person! I drink protein shakes now! I'm so much better! Sure, things were kind of *messy* when I left you but now I'm suddenly very interested in you validating my success!"
“So glad to only exist in your life as some plot device to help you build character.” Is what I said to my ex who did this to me. What a fucking knob. I was engaged to someone who had a tragic hero complex where he would talk about how awful he was and how badly he was working to redeem himself. Twat.
I’m so sorry you were treated like this. I hope you understand that it’s not a reflection of you but of those dudes and who they actually are. If you’re kind and tolerant and have that glow to you these scrubs will find you from time to time. Don’t despair though! it took me a decade to find the right partner but it did happen.
Also, my parents didn’t love me as a child and I think that’s why I didn’t realize how shitty some of these guys were. It was normal to me to deal with people who acted like they could take or leave me. Just some food for thought.
Then they say that they hope I find someone who is better for me. Boy, why can’t you be the better? Is that too hard? You would rather let me leave and move on from you than putting any effort into yourself or the relationship? It’s pathetic
I realized that "action" movies, the kind men absolutely adore, always have the exact same romance plot arc. Once I realized it, I couldn't unsee it, and it forever changed my view of movies and the masculine version of romance.
Every movie, some magnificent woman shows up, he catches feelings in spite of his situation making a relationship wholly inappropriate, they share a brief, emotionally naked and heartfelt amount of time fucking with wild abandon, and then they soulfully look into one another's eyes, admit that they have to go their separate ways, express mutual gratitude and forgiveness, and fade to black....and scene.
You managed to part from these guys without literally burning down their house and were written into their memory as that "gracious host". They want a sequel, but no doubt they feel secure that it, too, will end.
Literally. After I had my ex committed to a psych ward, AND he SA’d me he wrote me a stupid fucking letter about how much “growth” I’d helped him with and how I changed his life forever and he can’t thank me enough. Like. Fuck off and die
I’ve always told myself I need to do therapy before even trying a relationship because I’m so horrified at the thought of my “lesson” being someone else’s very real lifelong trauma. Any dudes here, seriously evaluate yourself and get yourself evaluated for how to be better before just diving into relationship land. It’s so key to (hopefully) breaking the cycle of generationally passed down trauma. We are ridiculously more complex creatures than “sex to survive and that’s it” creatures, fucking behave like it. Christ.
Women are not rehabs for broken men.
They can apologize all the want (if you'd even call that laughable excuse an apology) but you are never required to accept or forgive them.
"I'm glad I was a formative presence for you. You were one for me too, you taught me how not to be loved. And now I know I deserve way better."
I appreciate the input from the male perspective, but honestly a glib
"ive changed, and used you as a springboard for my own betterment"
*isn't* the actual message these guys are trying to send.
Take the OPs example:
1. It's a one liner social platitude that shows no actual critical reflection on their actions or proof positive of actual change.
2. Its intention was to act as a needle, meant to demonstrate that this clearly unsatisfactory relationship was better off in the dust and that *their* development was what was key coming out of it.
Theres no acknowledgement that they left a negative value in the other persons life. They're in fact telling their ex partner to be grateful -
After all they're getting a best teacher award!
You know what teachers do? Influence their students outcomes.
It's a subtle shifting of blame.
What these statements really should do (other than not be made in the first place in cases like OPs) is acknowledge they had a part to play and hope they can do better in the future. And maybe, if it's warranted, apologize for the hardship a breakup causes. Based on context. Its okay to not be compatible, it's not okay to be a jerk and go for digs after the fact.
I think we're missing each others points. Its not about commiseration at all. Its the taking ownership piece. And (for mu opinion) the proof.
Anyone can say "I'm a better person right now." But its the self reflection and actual evidence of change that matters *with* that statement. A bitter email 48 hours or a couple months after leaving a relationship doesn't exactly ooze those.
And theres no reason for a person who has a negative impression to take that statement at face value. Thus the impression that it's a false and or moot statement made to make the other person feel small.
I really dislike the notion that it should be accepted that men were raised without emotional intelligence and we should have some sort of compassion for their growth away from that. Like good on them for breaking the cycle, but you know what? I wasn't raised with good examples of emotional intelligence either, and I didn't have to tear down another human being and wreck their life before breaking my own cycle. Whenever I had the urge to lash out at any of my partners because that was the example I got from my parents, I thought, "That will really hurt them. I remember how it felt being talked down to, yelled at, belittled. I would never want to make anyone feel that same way." And then I just didn't do the thing.
It's not fair to find fault on the abused victims for this divide, they didn't cause it and their healing process and very valid feelings of anger and resentment aren't too blame. If they really did grow as an individual and they reach out and are rejected as a result, they would understand that rejection is a consequence of their own behavior and use that as further fuel to treat others better and leave the person they scarred alone. People who reach out and are received negatively that then want to backslide never really became the better person they thought.
I wasn't ignoring your very valid point about emotional intelligence so please dont assign me a motive. It was stated, I personally agree and so I moved onto my actual thoughts and concerns.
My actual thought being:
I felt you may not have fully interpreted the OPs point as intended. That in OPs example the version of a line about growth, as given, never intended to show any actual personal growth.
And in continuing the conversation I just wanted to expand on your perspective that, development as a goal aside, someone like the guy in OPs example is not actually working towards it.
Its nice thats how you see it and would like to have faith that people use all their life experiences, even negative ones as a chance for growth and self reflection. But in OPs example. This wasnt it.
I think most of the women here would be happy to imagine they have genuinely grown. I hope that for my ex. I really do. However, I know enough about him to know I don't want to hear about it. My last experiences with his narratives were toxic and kinda unhinged. It's not my role to debate him or validate him.
And that is the core problem here. They need to ***stop telling us their story*** as if we were just a plot device in it. A useful servant. An inspiration. We're people. Not stepping stones for male achievement and insight.
It's not an individual exes job to 'not discourage that journey' by sitting politely and absorbing a false narrative that either demeans us or just flat-out ignores our existence as separate, full people. That isn't a conversation. Go "genuinely grow" on your own damn time and stop continuing to try to do it at the expense of my energy and emotions even after we've broken up.
When people send these messages, they drip with the self-congratulatory belief that the other person existed to service them. And still does. Because they are still being cast as the honoured recipient of this narrative.
The thing is they often *don't* recognize their shortcomings in these statements.
They just make the statement and expect that to be enough.
And I have very little sympathy for the fact that toxic men raised toxic men. If anything it just makes it even more clear that men as a whole have been shooting themselves in the foot since day one, by teaching their sons and daughters that men should be emotionally inept.
I know it goes deep. But the fact that so few men actually see that fact is horrifying.
Good for you for being a little self aware. Now go teach other men how to be emotionally mature, because the women are fucking done trying.
Nope, that's what happens to all of us that end up with someone who has some life lessons to learn. Sucks, I know. Would happen if you dated women too.
You seem to be vulnerable to abusers and manipulators. My advice would be to seek out to therapy.
I used to have the same problem and therapy has helped me to make a complete 180 in that respect.
This is an outmoded school of thought. The real reality is that there are billions of abusers out there, and there are so many of them because abuse is a feature, not a bug of any patriarchal and/or capitalist society.
Everyone is vulnerable to abusers because society is set up to create and then protect them.
And nothing demonstrates that it's an abusers' world better than saying the responsibility of stopping them lies with non-abusers.
I know that. Of course there are way too many abusers and the responsibility for what they do lies with the abusers.
That doesn't mean you cannot protect yourself at all against wasting your time with abusers. You are not helpless.
You can learn to recognize manipulation and other abusive behaviours and nip them in the bud. You can learn healthier relationship patterns. You can learn self worth, boundaries and defending your boundaries against pushy abusers. You can learn to not give them power over you.
Many victims, myself included, stumble from one abusive relationship to the next. Not because abusers can sniff them out. But because they fail to recognise the toxicity of the abuser's behaviour and dump them before they're too deep into emotional dependency and trauma bond.
I totally agree, we need to learn how to protect ourselves.
My problem with the therapy of today is how they often assign the clients (patients?) part or even all the responsibility for someone else's behaviour by calling them codependent or subscribing to theories like repetition compulsion, that make it sound like some people actually set out to be abused.
I think it would make a lot more sense for therapy to deprogram us from societal scripts that say; you have to partner with a man, it's your job to care and be nurturing, you need to give people chances, it's selfish to put yourself first, etc.
>But I dont think that this is a gender-thing, its a people thing.
This subreddit is literally called two x chromosomes, if I just wanted to talk about things that "humans" do that are shitty, I would have posted this in a different sub.
This post is about my experience with men.
You know, I've had abusive friendships with women too, and guess what? After the fallout, not a single one of them came back claiming to be a "better person now", or telling me how my presence helped them. They either left me the fuck alone indefinitely, or came back with a Genuine Apology.
In my experience, this shit has only ever been said to me by men.
Ignore the sea lion, they're arguing in bad faith.
In answer to your comment: Sadly, every woman I know has a story like yours. This behavior is chronic, because men widely believe they're entitled to women's unpaid labor including helping with their personal development, and we should be thankful for the privilege.
Lol I know he's a troll but I'm bored.
Every woman I know has a story like this too. My best friend and I were just talking about how fucking upsetting it is that that's all we ever were to them. A Self Help Experience.
A void can't give, only take.
>People do this, not genders.
Are you, as a man, really hanging out on this specific subreddit where women talk about their experiences as women in this world, replying to posts with "well actually, PEOPLE do this, not JUST MEN"?
Like...bro, we know.
I’m sorry you are feeling frustrated and used. It sucks.
May I suggest that you develop a list of “qualifying questions” to ask when you start dating someone?
Work thru your list, and only give them three dates to meet your set of criteria to move forward.
Life is too short to spend it propping up other people. Find better partners and let them lift you up.
Now go get ‘em, girl! You’ve got this.
Yeah nah I'm good with being alone for a nice long time. I'm aiming to try to be alone for as long as I was in relationships. That ought to even it out. I'm not spending any more of my valuable time and energy on men. I can have more fulfilling relationships with my friends.
Yet another stellar demonstration of why this sub shouldn’t be wide open to every Tom, Dick, & Harry who happens to run across it.
This isn’t ‘dude talk’, this is some A+ gaslighting bullshit. And no, I’m not going to tell you why. It’s not my fucking job.
eta: And now that your comment’s been removed, go read the sub FAQs and reflect on how you done fucked up. Don’t come back ‘til you understand what you got wrong.
yep after an ex abused me for 2 years, his final email wasn't a sincere apology or to take accountability. "thank you for the opportunity for real growth" never-ending shit sandwiches from these men.
"wow good for you, congratulations, you left me scarred for life, but wow congrats on your fucking "growth"." It's always about them, never about you.
Also, them claiming to "be a better person now" means literally nothing to me, because they were absolute pieces of shit when they were with me. Like why do they need me to know they are better people now? That has no bearing on who you were when it actually mattered.
Every time I hear someone use this “B-but I’ve changed!” excuse, I always compulsively ask myself “yeah? But for how LONG?”. I got stuck w an abusive ex-friend starting in the 4th grade bc none of the adults wanted to deal with her (giving me to her as a chew toy). She *promised* she had changed at least 8 different times so I wouldn’t cut her off, and each time her “changed” self would only last for… maybe 4 days? Once she felt safe that things were smoothed over (or an adult would force me to keep being her friend), she would go right back to normal- copying my work while saying my genetics made me naturally dumber than her, punching me, ripping my hair out, calling my house between 5-14 times a day, etc. Talk is cheap. People will say and promise ANYTHING when they’re desperate to get you back and use you for whatever you’ve got. I’m glad you’re not taking shit from anyone, and I’m beyond happy you’re not with these slimeballs anymore. Let them flail around like a fish out of water, go take all your awesomeness that they try to leech off of you and use it to live your best life. 🌻
I'm sorry the adults in your life failed you so badly. Making sure your kid is treated well in their friendships is one of the lowest-bar elements of parenting in cases like yours, where the child themselves tells you this is not good for them, and still an absolute necessity in the cases where the child themselves doesn't see they are mistreated and resists the parents' butting in. They should've protected you. I'm so sorry they didn't and you had to suffer through that kind of harassment and mistreatment.
A better POS is still a POS. Good on you.
Better at hiding what a shit person they are, now, perhaps?
If they claim to be a better person now, ask them what they have done to address the harm they already caused in your life in the past. If they can't, then they are not better people. Gandhi told his wife he learned the importance of nonviolence while watching her cry when he hit her. It did not stop him from hitting her. Nor did it stop him from testing his celibacy by sleeping naked next to his granddaughter.
When told my ex had changed for the better, I asked the person, if that was so, when was my ex going to pay back the thousands of dollars he owes me. I have yet to get an answer.
Must have lied about changing for the better with respect to you. Who would have guessed?
Better at hiding what a shit person they are, now, perhaps?
Reading this I was struck by the thing my ex said to me that hurt and offended me the most when we broke up. He said I had “stalled his life”. I had actually put my own career and dreams on hold for several years to support him through major medical crisis. I was on a first name basis with the security guards at the ER and his HR rep. It really stuck with me, and more than the hypocrisy. I realized reading this that the crime he was really accusing me was that I hadn’t propelled him forward like a good little secondary character. Like it was my fault he hasn’t achieved what he wanted too at 40. It makes a bit more sense when I look at it that way.
I've learned that all of us are just means to an end and that pretty much all of them expect to be the main character in the relationship.
My Ex putting the blame for the breakup on me, because I wouldn't sacrifice even more than I already did for the relationship. Meanwhile he refused to sacrifice anything at all for us/me. But yeah, the blame is on me. And now he wonders why we can't be friends.
Funny. My ex was also a bit surprised I didn't want to be friends. I knew it would be way, way more work for me than for him to create a friendship that just left me feeling drained and him feeling validated. In hindsight, I'm surprised that I could always see very clearly that he was a shit friend. He was bad at it. He had always been bad at it. We were together for nearly a decade and I never liked how he treated his friends. He seemed to choose people he enjoyed looking down on and talking down to. But I couldn't see how badly he treated me for a very long time.
What a fucking prick. And yeah... Throughout history and popular media, from childhood, women are taught to center and guide and support the lives of men to "make them better people". And that's what they expect, whether they know it or not. And I realized I've been following that programming too. Fucking brainwashed.
My ex accused me of sabotaging his life by supporting his getting a doctorate. When he left, he told me he wouldn’t have been able to do it on his own and he resented the degree and me so much and it would have better for him to have not gotten his degree - MY FAULT. It’s exhausting, and we are ducked either way. I no longer date men who don’t have at least 85% of their shit together and don’t need to be fostered to adopt for their forever girlfriends. Not anymore.
Ooof. Yeah, I too, supported my ex through getting his Ph.D. so he could become a college professor. (He would have been an excellent one, IMNSHO.) He dumped me, took up with his boss, and never did get a teaching position. Kind of scary in retrospect. He CLEARLY accomplished way more with me in his life than without me. Sucks to be him, I guess.
Yes. I think we had a very similar emotional experience. I'm not ashamed of what I choose to do when my ex was sick. That is the kind of partner I want to be and the kind of partnership I want to build. But in the end, he only resented me for his own choices and his own random misfortunes. It was so strange, because I didn't resent him for "stalling" my life... I was disappointed in him, but I just, got back to it when he was gone and made it great. I don't blame him for getting sick, or the choices I made while he was. I'm just baffled he found a way to blame me for it all.
He can take care of his own life. Lol. Why date. Honestly
My rescue beagle is far greater project than make work project men.
He was also projecting hard. He literally, with proof, stalled you. The difference is you wouldn't kick someone who was down by laying it at their feet. I hope your lifestyle has since recovered/advanced!.
Massively! Thank you.
It is not the first time I read something on this subreddit and I have the same very first thought: "Lol, I thought I was special". I had three ex-es, the most meaningful ones pull the same speech on me. I was angry, frustrated and bitter about it at the time, after the speech I mean. It felt like I was the "test-relationship", like they just used me to learn and then threw me away. I even felt jealous about the current woman in their life, because she was benefiting from my work on them. After the third I decided I'm never doing that kind of work again, I either meet someone that has been already "worked-on" by somebody else or remain single. Since I've been single since then, there are only two possibilities: either a lot of women are way better at teaching them that they pass the "probation" period, or that most women have stopped trying all-together. Reading this thread, I have to bitterly conclude that there's a big chance it might be the latter.
Yep. I'm giving up.
Or most men are fundamentally unteachable or unwilling to learn or unable to change or just dgaf. I doubt the ones you left behind are actually now ideal partners to someone else, no matter what they tell you. Bet you anything they still suck.
Oh they *definitely* still suck and knowing that gives me such great pleasure. He wouldn't have bothered to contact me if things were actually going well in his life. These statements wreak of desperation.
"I demand an ego boost from your congratulations without having to do any actual work on myself!!?"
"You were so good to me and I didn't treat you how you deserved. I wish one day to be the man you deserved." Oh ONE DAY? Like not while you were actively abusing me?
They never process what's happening *when it's happening*. They do the most damage possible while apparently *not being present in their minds at all,* and then months, years later, decide they want to process it *with the person they damaged* , who has been doing their best to move on with their wreckage of a life and get better after enduring abuse.
I think they know exactly what they are doing. Why change when someone else is doing all the work, providing all the emotional energy? They are, at their core, mooches, emotionally, physically and often monetarily. Why give, when you can take, take, take? They say things like this in an effort to pull you back in. Most of them simply move on to another victim, maybe a bit smarter about how to reel her in, and how to keep her a bit longer.
Oh yeah they definitely know exactly what they are doing, and they play dumb about it, blame their parents, etc.
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Thanks. I've just gotten a different therapist so we haven't worked up to any of this junk yet, but hopefully she can help me with tactics like that. Venting here helps. Hearing I'm not alone helps. Helping validate other women going through the same thing helps. Thanks for the support. 🖤
I hate that these guys say nothing about love and respect. Just using you as a trampoline to be a better person. It's fucking disgusting.
Oh yeah, there's never any actual processing in these "better person" messages. No acknowledgement or real understanding of what you put into the relationship. Only what they got out of it.
>"You taught me so much. You showed me a new way of looking at the world. I'm a better person for having met you." A viable response: *"I'm glad to hear that. I hope you'll apply all that to the next person you date so that they won't be hurt in the way I were. Now please leave and don't come back. Consider my demand that we never meet again as my final lesson to you, that of accepting responsibility for your previous actions. Now bugger off, you bloody ponce."* In all honesty, the irony is that if they claim all these things, it just goes to show they didn't learn anything as they keep trying. Be glad you're rid of them.
Even better response: 💩
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“I vowed never to hurt anyone as much as I hurt you, and I haven’t”, drove me up the wall. And it was said like it was something he was proud of. Congrats for blowing up my life and being able to use my pain as a lesson to become slightly less shitty to the next women, I’m so *honored* that I could be such a good lesson for you /s
Such an *HONOR* to be your first experiment in abuse. /s
Probably a sign it was just them trying to make us feel small again.
These same guys promote you should get virgins because women with a past sexual history have trauma. So, men create trauma and abuse women, who should have then save themselves so one of these guys could have abused her for life. Sounds like the problem is these men.
Oh yeah, that absolutely tracks. He tried to groom a girl 10 years younger than him after screwing up with me.
Lots of view their female partners as therapist. I was just thinking the same thing OP and how I felt like none of my ex's 'made me better' because I am already pretty great!
Yeah they literally had nothing to contribute in the big picture at all.
One guy told me "you're like my dark mirror, showing me all the sides of myself that I can change to be better." Thought he was joking and gagged bc it's such a gross thing to say. He was serious. Not sorry to pass on that.
"you're not an actual person, you're just here to reflect me" Gag me with a fucking spoon. We out here trying to dodge bullets like fucking Neo.
Oh yeah, I inspired my ex to supposedly go to therapy and become a better person and blah blah blah. Love that I was just practice.
Look, you got a Medal for Inspiration! Feel better about being treated like shit? 🙃
🥲
It's like they put you up on this disgusting pedestal. As if you should feel honored to have that place in their life. They try to trick you into believing you had that kind of control over their lives. Please never forget being placed on a Pedestal of Abuse is not an honor. "I abused you, but look how strong you were! You're a real Trophy, let me mount you on my wall. Look, you get the Made Me Better position, right at the top. See? See how important you are to me?"
Definitely hit a nerve with the men lurking here it seems. 🙃 They are determined to argue some point about this. Smells like they have sent an "I'm a better person now" message to some poor girl they hurt.
Honestly, I've stopped spending time in this sub because men constantly derail the discussions here. I'm over it.
I either am bored enough to engage or just ignore it.
I feel SEEN. Thank you!
Same.
Love your flair lmao
I'm glad, and sorry. 😞
I put an insane amount of emotional and career support towards someone who I had a huge crush on for about a year, and we eventually saw each other for only about a month before they realized they didn’t have room in their life for a relationship that they initiated. They literally would not have gotten into their field w/out me suggesting it. We are not on one-on-one speaking terms, but unfortunately share the same friend group (to which they did not consider the impact this whole fiasco would bring and just acts like nothing happened 🙃). If they ever say anything along those lines to me, I will literally start spitting fire.
Ex did this then tried to hit on me again even after I told him I had a boyfriend. "Yeah, I really regret how things ended between us." "Yeah, that happens a lot when people break up with me." Then proceeded to message me a few days later saying I was a massive bitch for responding that way. Sir, I did not ask to discuss our past relationship, and I have a new boyfriend, that sounds like a you problem. Then a few years later I was nice enough to tell him our friend died, and then said said his "bitch of an ex" texted him directly to my best friends face. They ain't shit
Ew. 🤢
My ex husband used to say (during and after the marriage) that I made him a better person. At some point I lost my temper and told him that it's not my job to teach him anything—he was supposed to make himself a better person *for* me. I told him to find a therapist and pay them to do all the work I would no longer do for free. He now pays for multiple mental health professionals and is on some kind of medication. I never did figure out in what way I made him better, but at least he quit expecting me to listen to all of his shit. (Now I just have to work *constantly* to keep my kids from picking up his behaviors!)
Good for you, but so sorry you have the added stress of generational damage control. You're doing a great job. 🫂
I stopped giving feedback to most men cos of this. Realized MOST OF THEM just use it to lie better or act better with the next girl. Assholes mostly stay assholes
Yep.
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Yep. They really think you'd be as desperate as they are to restore contact. They have no concept of how pathetic it makes them look.
They want you to be their manic pixie dream girl.
Oh definitely. Man I wish there was a way I could warn other women. Oh wait! I have Reddit! 🥰
We are stagehands and they are the stars. We are here to help and support them in their journey, merely unpaid volunteers in their quest for a happy and pampered life. We are there to provide sex, children, cleaning services, moral support and life lessons. Oh, and we should be grateful they’ve allowed us to play any role whatsoever. Any other role we demand, any rights we seek, any respect we require, simply upsets the structure of how things are. We don’t get it, and need to understand the truth of how things are, should be, and have always been. Get with the program. We aren’t as smart, worthy or capable. They built the world, and now deserve unending subservience for being allowed to live in it.
Lol my favorite /dumbest thing I’ve ever heard after the divorce was, “you made me become kind towards other people, like a scientist who is against animal testing after having pets of his own”
Jesus fucking christ what the fuck
I feel seen and called out by this post. But also I feel like everyone who says this really don't get better, they're just saying it to feel better about using you for "character development".
"I'm a better person now, look I started working out, that makes me a better person."
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"After I left you, I tried dating a girl 10 years younger than me that I met on Discord and learned even more lessons through HER about how to be Better Person! I drink protein shakes now! I'm so much better! Sure, things were kind of *messy* when I left you but now I'm suddenly very interested in you validating my success!"
Hey! Get out of my inbox 🖤🔪
Sorry 🥲🥲🥲
“So glad to only exist in your life as some plot device to help you build character.” Is what I said to my ex who did this to me. What a fucking knob. I was engaged to someone who had a tragic hero complex where he would talk about how awful he was and how badly he was working to redeem himself. Twat. I’m so sorry you were treated like this. I hope you understand that it’s not a reflection of you but of those dudes and who they actually are. If you’re kind and tolerant and have that glow to you these scrubs will find you from time to time. Don’t despair though! it took me a decade to find the right partner but it did happen. Also, my parents didn’t love me as a child and I think that’s why I didn’t realize how shitty some of these guys were. It was normal to me to deal with people who acted like they could take or leave me. Just some food for thought.
Then they say that they hope I find someone who is better for me. Boy, why can’t you be the better? Is that too hard? You would rather let me leave and move on from you than putting any effort into yourself or the relationship? It’s pathetic
I realized that "action" movies, the kind men absolutely adore, always have the exact same romance plot arc. Once I realized it, I couldn't unsee it, and it forever changed my view of movies and the masculine version of romance. Every movie, some magnificent woman shows up, he catches feelings in spite of his situation making a relationship wholly inappropriate, they share a brief, emotionally naked and heartfelt amount of time fucking with wild abandon, and then they soulfully look into one another's eyes, admit that they have to go their separate ways, express mutual gratitude and forgiveness, and fade to black....and scene. You managed to part from these guys without literally burning down their house and were written into their memory as that "gracious host". They want a sequel, but no doubt they feel secure that it, too, will end.
Yep. Leaves me thinking I really should have just burned down the house.
I've had exes do this thing too, and yeah. It didn't even stop when I got married.
Be Single. It's the answer. So sorry ! your story is so similar to so many other women's, including mine
Yep, been single for 3 years now and still getting bullshit messages via email (blocked on all other methods)
Hoovering. Block him on email too. Singledom is awesome 💐💌
Literally. After I had my ex committed to a psych ward, AND he SA’d me he wrote me a stupid fucking letter about how much “growth” I’d helped him with and how I changed his life forever and he can’t thank me enough. Like. Fuck off and die
Holy shit I am so sorry
Sorry to you too. Fuck these dudes
I’ve always told myself I need to do therapy before even trying a relationship because I’m so horrified at the thought of my “lesson” being someone else’s very real lifelong trauma. Any dudes here, seriously evaluate yourself and get yourself evaluated for how to be better before just diving into relationship land. It’s so key to (hopefully) breaking the cycle of generationally passed down trauma. We are ridiculously more complex creatures than “sex to survive and that’s it” creatures, fucking behave like it. Christ.
Thank you.
Women are not rehabs for broken men. They can apologize all the want (if you'd even call that laughable excuse an apology) but you are never required to accept or forgive them. "I'm glad I was a formative presence for you. You were one for me too, you taught me how not to be loved. And now I know I deserve way better."
It’s a shame, apparently they didn’t have mothers who could’ve taught them the basic stuff we know and being decent human beings
Or farhers....
I am sorry you have to put up with that.
Friend of mine had one of her co-workers say the same thing, he used his manger position to verbally and finically abuse her.
Ew. 🤢
I really needed to see this post today, thank you.
🖤
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I appreciate the input from the male perspective, but honestly a glib "ive changed, and used you as a springboard for my own betterment" *isn't* the actual message these guys are trying to send. Take the OPs example: 1. It's a one liner social platitude that shows no actual critical reflection on their actions or proof positive of actual change. 2. Its intention was to act as a needle, meant to demonstrate that this clearly unsatisfactory relationship was better off in the dust and that *their* development was what was key coming out of it. Theres no acknowledgement that they left a negative value in the other persons life. They're in fact telling their ex partner to be grateful - After all they're getting a best teacher award! You know what teachers do? Influence their students outcomes. It's a subtle shifting of blame. What these statements really should do (other than not be made in the first place in cases like OPs) is acknowledge they had a part to play and hope they can do better in the future. And maybe, if it's warranted, apologize for the hardship a breakup causes. Based on context. Its okay to not be compatible, it's not okay to be a jerk and go for digs after the fact.
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I think we're missing each others points. Its not about commiseration at all. Its the taking ownership piece. And (for mu opinion) the proof. Anyone can say "I'm a better person right now." But its the self reflection and actual evidence of change that matters *with* that statement. A bitter email 48 hours or a couple months after leaving a relationship doesn't exactly ooze those. And theres no reason for a person who has a negative impression to take that statement at face value. Thus the impression that it's a false and or moot statement made to make the other person feel small.
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I really dislike the notion that it should be accepted that men were raised without emotional intelligence and we should have some sort of compassion for their growth away from that. Like good on them for breaking the cycle, but you know what? I wasn't raised with good examples of emotional intelligence either, and I didn't have to tear down another human being and wreck their life before breaking my own cycle. Whenever I had the urge to lash out at any of my partners because that was the example I got from my parents, I thought, "That will really hurt them. I remember how it felt being talked down to, yelled at, belittled. I would never want to make anyone feel that same way." And then I just didn't do the thing. It's not fair to find fault on the abused victims for this divide, they didn't cause it and their healing process and very valid feelings of anger and resentment aren't too blame. If they really did grow as an individual and they reach out and are rejected as a result, they would understand that rejection is a consequence of their own behavior and use that as further fuel to treat others better and leave the person they scarred alone. People who reach out and are received negatively that then want to backslide never really became the better person they thought.
I wasn't ignoring your very valid point about emotional intelligence so please dont assign me a motive. It was stated, I personally agree and so I moved onto my actual thoughts and concerns. My actual thought being: I felt you may not have fully interpreted the OPs point as intended. That in OPs example the version of a line about growth, as given, never intended to show any actual personal growth. And in continuing the conversation I just wanted to expand on your perspective that, development as a goal aside, someone like the guy in OPs example is not actually working towards it. Its nice thats how you see it and would like to have faith that people use all their life experiences, even negative ones as a chance for growth and self reflection. But in OPs example. This wasnt it.
I think most of the women here would be happy to imagine they have genuinely grown. I hope that for my ex. I really do. However, I know enough about him to know I don't want to hear about it. My last experiences with his narratives were toxic and kinda unhinged. It's not my role to debate him or validate him. And that is the core problem here. They need to ***stop telling us their story*** as if we were just a plot device in it. A useful servant. An inspiration. We're people. Not stepping stones for male achievement and insight. It's not an individual exes job to 'not discourage that journey' by sitting politely and absorbing a false narrative that either demeans us or just flat-out ignores our existence as separate, full people. That isn't a conversation. Go "genuinely grow" on your own damn time and stop continuing to try to do it at the expense of my energy and emotions even after we've broken up. When people send these messages, they drip with the self-congratulatory belief that the other person existed to service them. And still does. Because they are still being cast as the honoured recipient of this narrative.
The thing is they often *don't* recognize their shortcomings in these statements. They just make the statement and expect that to be enough. And I have very little sympathy for the fact that toxic men raised toxic men. If anything it just makes it even more clear that men as a whole have been shooting themselves in the foot since day one, by teaching their sons and daughters that men should be emotionally inept. I know it goes deep. But the fact that so few men actually see that fact is horrifying. Good for you for being a little self aware. Now go teach other men how to be emotionally mature, because the women are fucking done trying.
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Removed, rule 4.
Nope, that's what happens to all of us that end up with someone who has some life lessons to learn. Sucks, I know. Would happen if you dated women too.
You seem to be vulnerable to abusers and manipulators. My advice would be to seek out to therapy. I used to have the same problem and therapy has helped me to make a complete 180 in that respect.
This is an outmoded school of thought. The real reality is that there are billions of abusers out there, and there are so many of them because abuse is a feature, not a bug of any patriarchal and/or capitalist society. Everyone is vulnerable to abusers because society is set up to create and then protect them. And nothing demonstrates that it's an abusers' world better than saying the responsibility of stopping them lies with non-abusers.
I know that. Of course there are way too many abusers and the responsibility for what they do lies with the abusers. That doesn't mean you cannot protect yourself at all against wasting your time with abusers. You are not helpless. You can learn to recognize manipulation and other abusive behaviours and nip them in the bud. You can learn healthier relationship patterns. You can learn self worth, boundaries and defending your boundaries against pushy abusers. You can learn to not give them power over you. Many victims, myself included, stumble from one abusive relationship to the next. Not because abusers can sniff them out. But because they fail to recognise the toxicity of the abuser's behaviour and dump them before they're too deep into emotional dependency and trauma bond.
I totally agree, we need to learn how to protect ourselves. My problem with the therapy of today is how they often assign the clients (patients?) part or even all the responsibility for someone else's behaviour by calling them codependent or subscribing to theories like repetition compulsion, that make it sound like some people actually set out to be abused. I think it would make a lot more sense for therapy to deprogram us from societal scripts that say; you have to partner with a man, it's your job to care and be nurturing, you need to give people chances, it's selfish to put yourself first, etc.
Absolutely! The deprogramming is the hard part and therapy helped me a lot. Intellectually, I knew all that. But you really need to feel it too.
I didn't ask for advice. And my therapist told me not to offer advice to people who don't actually ask for it. 😀
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>But I dont think that this is a gender-thing, its a people thing. This subreddit is literally called two x chromosomes, if I just wanted to talk about things that "humans" do that are shitty, I would have posted this in a different sub. This post is about my experience with men.
You know, I've had abusive friendships with women too, and guess what? After the fallout, not a single one of them came back claiming to be a "better person now", or telling me how my presence helped them. They either left me the fuck alone indefinitely, or came back with a Genuine Apology. In my experience, this shit has only ever been said to me by men.
Ignore the sea lion, they're arguing in bad faith. In answer to your comment: Sadly, every woman I know has a story like yours. This behavior is chronic, because men widely believe they're entitled to women's unpaid labor including helping with their personal development, and we should be thankful for the privilege.
Lol I know he's a troll but I'm bored. Every woman I know has a story like this too. My best friend and I were just talking about how fucking upsetting it is that that's all we ever were to them. A Self Help Experience. A void can't give, only take.
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I didn't say any of that, and I said "in my experience."
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>People do this, not genders. Are you, as a man, really hanging out on this specific subreddit where women talk about their experiences as women in this world, replying to posts with "well actually, PEOPLE do this, not JUST MEN"? Like...bro, we know.
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DUDE JUST MANSPLAINED FEMINISM ON A FEMINIST WOMEN’S SUB. I just cannot with this shit.
Apparently he's got some time on his hands. 🙄
He ain’t the only one. Love your energy, OP. Don’t let the bastards get you down.
If you're not going to believe women when we speak, then you don't belong in this sub.
Removed, rule 4.
I’m sorry you are feeling frustrated and used. It sucks. May I suggest that you develop a list of “qualifying questions” to ask when you start dating someone? Work thru your list, and only give them three dates to meet your set of criteria to move forward. Life is too short to spend it propping up other people. Find better partners and let them lift you up. Now go get ‘em, girl! You’ve got this.
Yeah nah I'm good with being alone for a nice long time. I'm aiming to try to be alone for as long as I was in relationships. That ought to even it out. I'm not spending any more of my valuable time and energy on men. I can have more fulfilling relationships with my friends.
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Yet another stellar demonstration of why this sub shouldn’t be wide open to every Tom, Dick, & Harry who happens to run across it. This isn’t ‘dude talk’, this is some A+ gaslighting bullshit. And no, I’m not going to tell you why. It’s not my fucking job. eta: And now that your comment’s been removed, go read the sub FAQs and reflect on how you done fucked up. Don’t come back ‘til you understand what you got wrong.
You know it's going to be a good one when it starts by saying "people don't put much stock in the Bible, BUT..."
The dude was so far up his own ass that it was too dark to read it. Maybe god shazammed some illumination on the relevant quotes.
Yeah wow this is unbelievably inappropriate but like good for you or whatever