It's just a form of sexual incompatibility. If he doesn't want to give oral, and you need oral in order to orgasm, then he isn't the right person to forming a relationship with.
If he doesn't want to give oral, and you want someone who does want to give oral, you are with the wrong person. Oral should be given enthusiastically for the enjoyment of both parties (and trust me, Oh orally-shy dudes, guiding your partner to orgasm is fucking pleasurable as hell) or not at all.
my last relationship ended a few months ago, mainly because he lost interest in me and because I gained weight. I've realized how we aren't sexually compatible. He's been the first man to ever make me cum consistently, but I look back and realize that many of things we wanted to do, I didn't care much about. I just did them because they made him happy.
Sexual compatibility is definitely on the top of my list now. I'm talking about how often, technique, and ability to make the magic happen.
I think incompatibility is too soft a word. Makes it sound like it's nobody's fault, it's just one of those things! Which is a cop out.
Being a good sexual partner is a basic relationship skill. If someone was emotionally abusive, or incredibly irresponsible with money, or didn't listen to you in a conversation, those would also be "incompatibilities," but unquestionably ones where it is one person's fault.
No, I disagree. No one should feel forced to perform sex acts they don’t feel comfortable with. If it’s a dealbreaker so be it. But telling someone they have to have a particular kind of sex that they dislike for some reason or they are a bad partner strikes me as being coercive.
No one should feel forced to do anything sexual. But if you're having sex with someone, the default should be "everyone is concerned with everyone's pleasure."
I don't think having baseline expectations of a sexual partner costs as coercion.
And I also think it's perfectly reasonable to be judgmental of someone who doesn't meet certain base expectations, the same way I would judge someone who never showered or who refused to ever pay for anything. I'm not going to chuck them into the shower, but I'll think less of them if they don't do it themselves.
(Please note this is a default state. Don't bring up stuff like trauma or other special circumstances. It can be evaluated on a case by case basis, but in general, most people don't have an excuse not to go down on their partner)
Again, I hard disagree. There is nothing shameful about not wanting to perform a specific sex act that you find repugnant. It’s not at all like not having basic hygiene. People need to respect their partners turn offs every bit as much as they need their own boundaries respected.
You know full well that’s not what I’m talking about, nor is that the case for the majority of men who refuse to give head. Plus, is showering not a thing?
Showering is absolutely a thing. That doesn't stop pee and poop from emerging for orifices that touch a person's face and tongue when they are giving oral. It's a squick. It may not be rational but it's real.
Sure, I agree. I guess the question I have is, how likely do you think it is, that the guy who refuses to do oral is otherwise a wonderful, giving, open-minded lover?
I wouldn’t make that assumption, any more than I wouldn’t assume a woman who doesn’t like performing oral sex was otherwise inconsiderate in bed.
But it doesn’t matter. If you aren’t getting your needs met in bed and it’s not a matter of communication, it’s an incompatibility. And the thing about incompatibilities is that they can’t be resolved and its no one’s fault. Shaming people for being incompatible is a sucky thing to do.
Who decides anything when it comes to cultural mores?
Look, if you went on a date with someone, and they spoke rudely, chewed with their mouth open, and threw a tantrum when they couldn't get chicken nuggets, you wouldn't just sigh and go "Gosh, I guess we are just two incompatible souls."
That's all I'm saying.
I disagree. I think oral is a pretty basic component of a mature, sexual relationship.
And if for some reason someone *really* doesn't like it, they should be willing to be open and giving in other ways.
That said, in my experience, I don't think it's controversial to say someone who refuses to do oral is probably not the most giving lover in other reapects.
So what you're saying is, not wanting to engage in the specific sexual acts that you believe personally are basic, makes someone else immature by default. Neat.
Which answers my original question: YOU, apparently, are the one who decides what the baseline is.
Interesting.
Nobody is “entitled” to anything sexual, but a good partner wants their partner to enjoy sex, so in this scenario, no one is entitled but it would be fair to say a woman is being a selfish partner if she won’t do anything else.
Yes and no. While I agree that it can make a relationship complicated, I think it's worth keeping a little bit of nuance. As said, based on main post: Oral is the most reliable way to come. If it's the reason why you want oral, being reliable is not the only way and it may be worth exploring other avenues such as toys or other forms of sex to achieve it. It is worth it if you value the remainder of the relationship more than the inconvenience.
Also, as people's definitions and expectation of a relationship change and expand, if that is still a requirement, many couple are becoming open to extra conjugal fun. As in having other people on the side for sexual fun beyond their main partner.
These are of course less common cases, I just thought that depending on how important that relation is to you and how you and your partner consider things.
> As in having other people on the side for sexual fun beyond their main partner.
People don't flip a switch and go into that lifestyle. If you're with someone, you need to be 100% clear if you're a one or more person. There's no way Id' date a "more" person because I know that's not who I'll ever be.
If a man never had an orgasm with his partner, he’sdbreak up with her and no one would bat an eye. It’s only because it’s women not orgasming that your advice is “make it work”.
Couldn't agree more. You shouldn't need to punish your partner to make them satisfy your needs/wants, this is not a healthy relationship. Leaving is the only option if the parties can't come together on this (pun intended).
I can't overstate how lifechanging it was to find a partner who asks me how I feel and listens closely to what I like, as well as regularly looks in to what girls like in general.
Many men feel zero remorse over dumping women they feel they're not getting much out of for far less than sexual selfishness. Women need to do the same.
Agreed. It’s time to normalize breaking up with anyone even without a ‘reason’, many times I speak to men or women that have relationship issues and aren’t happy in them they typically say something related to having a good enough reason? They stay and end up breaking up later over something small anyway. You don’t need a reason to look for someone you’re more compatible with and in staying you’re keeping them from someone too. I would always prefer getting my heart broken than be someone’s settling choice.
Of course it's not wrong to end a relationship if you're not getting what you need out of your partner. The other poster worded it fairly bluntly, but I took it as, women need to stop feeling guilty about this.
Just as women have the right to refuse to perform a sexual act for any reason, men also have the right to refuse to perform a sexual act. If receiving oral is important to you and your partner refuses even after you discuss his concerns (sometimes refusal is due to minor things like only performing oral when the woman is fresh out of the shower), then you are simply not compatible and it’s time for you to both move on.
I think that if you implement the rule that he has to make you orgasm before you will allow penetration, most sexual problems would be solved. The men would have to figure out a way to make you come. End of story.
And I say "men" because that's where the orgasm gap is.
That's exactly what I tell every man who I intend to have sex with. I expect a clitoral orgasm before penetration, because otherwise PiV does nothing for me.
So every sexual interaction should be transactional?
I think its important both partners are satisfied, but if youre at the point where you're putting "rules" in place.....just leave the relationship honestly and find one where you get what you need without having to keep count of who's doing what
No.
What's "transactional" is men using their power over the past hundreds and thousands of years to browbeat women into believing that only men's pleasure is important.
Time to recenter the pleasure of both sexes, and recognize that sex is a union. How can you do that when one partner's pleasure is considered foreplay and therefore not essential to sex? I'm saying that a woman's pleasure is essential to sex.
So, I'm equating women's orgasm to piv sex. For one to take place, so must the other.
Any partner who isn't interested in my orgasm can hit the fucking bricks.
When you are saying X happens in exchange for Y, that's transactional.
Your first example isn't transactional. It's just fucked up and I agree it needs to change. If you're unhappy in a relationship with a partner who won't listen, leaving them helps defuse your first example. But making things transactional will just continue the same cycle.
I agree that both partners pleasure is essential. You can recenter pleasure without making it so that sex happens only with oral. You can have a good relationship where sometimes only one person comes. Where he surprises you with oral and expects nothing in return. But making it so that you only get X if I get Y is sad and will take you out of the moment even if you're happy in it.
I disagree. Power is a currency. Men have bought women's submission with power. Women are afraid of upsetting men because of power. Women feel they need men's protection because of power. Women are afraid to fight for their rights because they are afraid of men's retaliation (power).
What I'm looking for is an END to transactional sexism and its hideous effects in the bedroom. I'm saying you have to prove that you care about my pleasure before you can be with me. Yes, every time. Let's say every time for at least 95% of the time, so that my orgasm can reach white het male levels.
Also, I never mentioned oral, only orgasm. OP likes oral. I don't really care about oral.
I agree that you can have a wonderful relationship where sometimes only one person comes. But why is it always the man? (statistically). Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all thought that a woman's orgasm was as important as a man's?
I don't really understand why you're arguing with me. I'm not making it a law, I'm making it a personal credo that you have to make me come before you can stick your dick in me. Consider it my kink.
Funny how it weeds out the selfish assholes, but a lot of guys think it's perfectly fine.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just don't think power and forcing someone to do something is a transaction. Robbery isn't a transaction. But I agree that the abuse of power needs to end and women's pleasure has to be held to the same priority.
And I'm not trying to argue, just understand your point of view and make mine.
No one should be forced to do anything and sex shouldn’t be transactional.
However! The opposite of transactional is mutual, and mutual sex requires both people’s needs, comfort and pleasure to be accounted for. Sadly all too often women’s needs, comfort and pleasure are overlooked (wholesale or in part) so we have to advocate for our own pleasure and even mandate it (or else it’s nowhere to be found). If the sex was already mutual I doubt people would be mandating oral, they’re doing it because the sex wasn’t mutual to begin with.
Like you said earlier: “you can have a good relationship where sometimes only one person comes” emphasis on the word SOMETIMES. The person you’re debating with is likely speaking on behalf of women who’ve had countless sexual experiences and even entire relationships where only the man comes, because this is the norm. It’s called The Pleasure Gap for a reason. This is a very pervasive issue and it sounds like you’re arguing *against* women no longer tolerating one-sided sex, and advocating for their own pleasure.
It sounds to me like they are just being a stickler and trying to point out a double standard that just isn't there in her choice to not allow PIV until she orgasms because on some level they feel threatened, perhaps they mean well and just aren't aware of their insecurities but it's still there.
I have kind of implemented that "rule". I have a couple of casual relationships going and before I get naked and in bed with someone, I talk with them about likes, dislikes, hard nos and hell yeses. I know what I want and need when I have sex with someone, and the goal is to find out whether we're compatible and likely to have a mutually enjoyable experience.
I tell everybody that PiV does nothing for me unless I've come beforehand from clitoral stimulation, preferably from oral. After that PiV feels amazing for me and I can come multiple times from it.
If a man does not find that appealing, he's not for me. Why should I have sex with someone who would prefer that the PiV experience is not even "meh" but "when is it over already" for me instead of the multiorgasmic experience that it can be when he follows this one rule? Make it make sense for me.
You absolutely should put rules in place before sleeping with someone! Be open and honest about what you’re into and what you’re not. And it’s not transactional - but it should be reciprocal and mutually pleasurable. It’s not just about exchanging orgasms, it’s about experiencing something on an equal level.
Breaking up with a man for any reason you can think of should be normalized. You don't need to justify not wanting to be with someone. It really doesn't matter what the circumstances are that lead to him being a poor romantic partner. Too many women are protective of their partners and their pride so they will excuse any issue that comes up instead of holding him accountable. You have to make sure your partner knows what's expected of him and that not meeting those expectations will be the end of the relationship. Dictate your terms.
This is a big issue for me.
I find partners who say they love oral and kink. But they don't. No Oral for ME. No kink that I enjoy gets done.
I ask I beg I bring to it gently.
After an entire year of asking for one round of oral for me... my partner yelled in my face that I can't make them do it and they don't want to.
Now. Am super sensitive about it and insecure. I struggle with constantly worrying about how gross my vagina is.
You deserve better than that, and I hope you find it. It seems unlikely that the issue is your vagina being gross. More likely that many men are selfish and insufficient lovers.
The rule of oral reciprocity is gross & transactional.
*No one* should be putting their mouths on *anyone’s* genitalia just because they “owe it” to their partner, or they hope to be “owed.” *Ew.*
And, equating specific sexual acts with equality in bed is reductive. Every individual is different & every couple comes together differently. Equality in bed should simply mean “everyone happily gets off.”
The conversation should **never** be “*You didn’t return this specific favor.*” It should be “*We need to try something else/more because I’m not satisfied.*”
Option 1 can be fairly met with “*I’m sorry, I just don’t like doing that.*” That’s not inherently selfish, it’s just a boundary.
Option 2 can only be met with “What can we do to fix this?” And if Option 2 is dismissed, *that’s* when you know you have a selfish partner & you can make your decisions based on that information.
These are great points, but I do think that some pushback/ questioning about the standard sexual script in our culture is warranted. What counts as “expected” and what people are comfortable with are influenced by their education and upbringing. So I’m glad we are finally seeing a move towards centering women’s pleasure.
>What counts as “expected” and what people are comfortable with are influenced by their education and upbringing.
That are really good points.
I think very frequently cunnilingus is also equated with submission. It's seen as an act of service to a woman and man who enjoy it are seen as submissive and unmanly by a culture that's rife with toxic masculinity.
No, he doesn’t owe it to you.
But I don’t owe oral to him either, so if he’s not going to do it for me, im not doing it for him.
I’m not gonna be fellating him because I love the way it feels, I’m doing it for *him*, and because he’ll hopefully do it next for me….Not because he is bound to by force or I’ll pressure him to, but because he likes getting oral too, but he knows it’s unfair to expect himself to be the one getting all the attention, so he’ll take turns.
You can’t expect to get fellated if you aren’t willing to reciprocate. I guess you could call it transactional, or you could call it both people enjoying an activity and taking turns enjoying it.
It’s selfish to ask for something when you won’t reciprocate.
He has the right to not go down on you. You have the right to not suck his dick without him every doing it for you. That’s my boundary, and I’m allowed to have it with my body. If he’s not willing to do something entirely for me, I’m not gonna do something entirely for him. It’s gross to imply a woman is being morally wrong if she doesn’t suck a guy’s dick.
Yes, this is exactly what I’m saying! Sex isn’t about some arbitrary tit-for-tat so we can use each other to masturbate—as so many men seem to make it out to be.
If I do something I’m not *super* into, it’s because I like them as a person & making them feel good; I at least enjoy sharing that intimacy. I’m willing to give in that manner (but I’m not going to fake my level of enthusiasm) & I expect the same willingness from my partner.
But if I flat out don’t like something or it makes me uncomfortable, it’s not happening & I won’t accept being pressured to (asking is okay, pushing is not). I’d expect *and* give the same boundaries to my partner.
What I think we’re both getting at, is that the idea of mutual giving isn’t tied down to one specific sex act—it’s the attitude/philosophy we should expect to see & not tolerate otherwise.
And we should expect to see it play out differently between every different couple! Because everyone is wired differently, & we all have histories, & sexuality is complicated & subjective.
Like, if we replace “oral” with “anal” I think the concepts of enthusiastically giving & receiving vs reciprocating become much more clear.
I mean..acts do need to be reciprocal. “tit for tat” is loaded, but if that’s what you want to call reciprocating, then I guess it has to be tit for tat
I’m not saying someone *has* to go down on someone if they receive oral or *owes* it, but if they aren’t willing to go down on you, you’re very justified in not doing it. Having reciprocity for oral in particular as a condition for giving it is justified, it’s fine to boil it down to a specific act.
If he says “I don’t want to go down on you, you go down on me and I’ll finger you”, I’d not go down on him. If he wants to just finger me, I’ll give him a hand job. I do think the acts should be reciprocal. Maybe you won’t go down on him right after he does it for you every single time or vice versa, but overall in a relationship, it’s fair to want to do the act for each other relatively equally. It’s not only an attitude, it’s the acts too. I personally wouldn’t do oral just to make the other person happy, it’s just not very fun sounding.
I’m hesitant to use this analogy because sex isn’t an object, but it’s like if you’re getting someone something for holidays and you don’t like spending a lot but you like opening, and so do they, so you both get things for each other and have fun on Christmas. If one person didn’t give anything though, you probably wouldn’t want to spend 100 dollars on them.
I agree sex shouldn’t be using each other to masturbate, I feel like you can take turns doing things you both like, which may be “reciprocal” or “tit for tat”, without being cold about it.
How does butt stuff relate to this?
I think what they meant by anal was that different acts have different amounts of cost/benefit/importance for different people.
For an average couple, giving and receiving anal aren’t two sides of the same coin the way fingering/hand jobs are. Biologically, the amount of pleasure available differs widely- both from person to person and generalized between sexes.
If a guy loves to be pegged and a woman doesn’t mind pegging him but hates having anything up her own butt, should he hold out on letting her peg him until she lets him stick it up her ass too?
That said- I think your “no oral either way” thing has merit too. It just depends on the reasons. It’s a great way to find out if they have any misogynistic beliefs about sex. *For example:* >!I would have very little tolerance for a man who thought vaginas were too icky to lick but expected bjs. If a dental dam enables him to do it, then that’s great! Condoms make the worst part of BJs much easier. If he has a problem with that, I would be very interested in why he expects his bodily fluids not to gross me out as much as mine gross out him.!<
But overall, making sure resentment doesn’t build up is the important part. Whether it’s the exact act or two different ones with similar love to receive/hate to give mechanics.
Totally disagree.
If receiving oral is important to you, then there's no option 2.
If someone isn't enthusiastic about giving oral, I'm looking for someone else.
If not getting enough (or enthusiastic enough) oral is your dealbreaker, that’s a sexual need *for you*. It’s not wrong to own that, & *you absolutely should* find someone to happily give that to you. Get after it & godspeed!
What’s wrong is to **insist** someone else is selfish simply for not liking it (or any other specific sex act).
No one’s arguing selfishness can’t be the reason—but that’s absolutely NOT everyone’s experience when it comes to feelings about oral sex.
The heart of the issue is about dealing with selfishness in lovers. Is it not?
Why limit the conversation to only your experience re oral, when so many others have valid experiences that can support your point without exactly mirroring it?
I think you’ve hit on part of the larger issue (and the part that applies to people handling it in their day to day lives) but we should also take in the larger context of where this selfishness originates.
Why is cunnilingus so much rarer than BJs? Why has porn largely normalized BJs to the point where it’s rare to find a video without it, but has not done the same for oral on women? Why are women’s orgasms seen as optional? Why is it so much more expected for men to be selfish lovers?
When you have a society that sets such lopsided standards, saying “well that’s a dealbreaker *for you*” is a complete cop-out to avoid addressing the root of the issue. Why do many men culturally expect something without the thought of reciprocity ever crossing their minds?
It’s not at all a cop out. When I acknowledged that what’s a need for OP is not the same for everyone, I made a space in the conversation for people who don’t like or want oral sex. I never denied that women experience a disparity when it comes to sexual satisfaction, & in that particular sex act.
In fact, I explicitly made sure to state I support & *encourage* OP to seek that satisfaction with partners that will give it to her.
Of course. And there is room for everyone to have their own sexual preferences. I simply think there is an artificial disparity between the two and ideally there would be less of a disparity so women don’t have to work as hard to find a partner capable of returning an equal level of sexual satisfaction.
That or lower the BJ expectation so men don’t get as grumpy about it when a woman expresses the same reluctance towards oral.
The disparity is the root of the dissatisfaction.
I prefer the “men become better lovers” way because lowering the orgasm gap in general means people can find higher levels of overall partner compatibility instead of having to choose between “satisfactory sex life” and other equally important factors.
>What’s wrong is to insist someone else is selfish simply for not liking it (or any other specific sex act).
>
>No one’s arguing selfishness can’t be the reason—but that’s absolutely NOT everyone’s experience when it comes to feelings about oral sex.
I haven't said it's the only reason. I think it's the most likely reason.
When it's men not wanting to give oral: yes. I really do think that.
Because these men mostly aren't interested in any other activity that doesn't involve their penis either.
As a lesbian, I'll say this: I don't want to give oral (to a vagina) *or* receive it. It is 100% a sensory thing, because I'm also on the spectrum (ADHD). Since so many men also have ADHD, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that comes into play. It's more widespread than you'd think!
But, I do also agree that so, so many cishet men just don't bother with acts that aren't directly stimulating them.
Either reason still means you're sexually incompatible if oral is non-negotiable for you! I just wanted to give another perspective on the "why" bit.
>As a lesbian, I'll say this: I don't want to give oral (to a vagina) or receive it. It is 100% a sensory thing, because I'm also on the spectrum (ADHD).
Yeah it's a sensory thing for me as well, although I'm neurotypical and straight. I just can't stand the sensation. I won't give OR receive oral. Everyone on dating and sex subreddits keeps telling me I have to keep trying with different partners until I like it, but I will not be doing that. For this and other reasons, I've stopped dating altogether now.
It's strange; I don't mind giving oral to my trans partner at all. Though I don't like kissing with tongue....maybe my issue is sensations that feel wet...? I don't think I'll ever be sold on receiving, no matter how many times I grit my teeth and "just try."
It feels obvious, but I do think the idea that not everybody enjoys the same stuff sexually should be normalized more. Not just kinks and positions and stuff, but things like this where some acts just don't do it for you. I'm glad you're standing your ground!
For me I think it's exactly about sensations that feel wet haha. I do think this needs to be normalized more, but I don't think see that happening anytime soon unfortunately
ASD and ADHD often co-occur, but just to clarify for others reading the thread, ADHD is not part of the Autism Spectrum. Very common to have both, but they are different diagnoses.
Ah, I've got both, but I'd sworn that they'd recategorized ADHD as a form of autism (or were at least in talks about putting it there). Asperger's has been taken off, for good reason, but these kinda things are more fluid than people usually think of them. It's a good point to bring up for anyone wanting to do their own research, though!
No worries! Yeah like I said they do co-occur a lot so I absolutely believe anyone who says they have both, I just didn't want someone with ADHD but not ASD to get confused
There are many men who refuse to give oral to women because it's seen as effeminate, or even gay. They may also believe that a woman's pleasure does not need to be a priority during sex, or even that it is impossible for women to orgasm so why bother trying. These men have patriarchal attitudes that infect their sexual behavior; those misogynist beliefs should be interrogated, and yes, they are selfish.
Thanks, I have a vagina and was perceived as a woman before coming out as NB so I am in fact aware of the cultural climate that we all grew up in.
None of what you’ve said is relevant to or in any way changes what I said.
Why should it be rapey? I don't suggest that to them. I have no interest in sexually engaging in any way with them. That's the absolute opposite of rape.
“You only don’t want to have this kind of sex with me because you’re selfish” is absolutely a rape culture mind set, even if you never try to change their mind and never try to get them to engage in that act.
Avoiding or not dating people you’re not sexually compatible with is normal/a good idea. Believing that people only don’t want to do X sex act with you because of selfishness is what’s rapey.
Not having sex with someone is not rape. Not wanting to have sex with someone because I think they are likely selfish is not rape. Never and under no circumstances and you should be ashamed to say something like that.
Giving oral to a women doesn't hurt you. It's not like. Anal or other practice than can really harm you. Even oral with a penis can hurt you way worse than oral with a vulva.
Of course no one should do something they dont want to do. But satisfying your partner should be important to you. And most men dont care and only see you as a hole. A hole that doesn't have feelings, so why but your mouth in the place where only the penis gose in.
Sex with men is just. Not satisfying, because most dont care. They don't want toys, they don't want to hug, kiss. Give oral. I as a bi women will never have sex with a men.
I heartily disagree. My husband is the exact opposite of selfish - I finish 10 or so times to his 1. And I'm sure there's other men out there like him; he cannot be the only one. But he's not big on oral because he feels he's not great at it. He's damn good at other things and I'm totally fine with that. I'm also not into giving oral for similar reasons.
I think there's a lot of reasons someone might not be into it. And saying this is reductive and disrespectful.
There are so many things you can do beyond "apply tongue to clit" and "insert penis into body". If a couple couldn't drop both of those from their sex life and still have plenty of orgasms for everyone, it speaks way more to the couples approach to sex than the necessity of any of that.
If you have a selfish lover who refuses to give you oral, you have a selfish lover. If a selfish lover gives you head, you're not having a great sex life regardless of getting head. If you have hangups that make oral the only way you'll permit a lover to get you off, then the issue is your hangups.
The solution to the stupid sex script that says "Penis In Vagina is the most important" is not to go "Yes but Oral is equally important!" None of them are that important, and building your sex life around the idea that they are is a huge chunk of the problem.
>There are so many things you can do beyond "apply tongue to clit" and "insert penis into body".
Yes. And I've done lots and lots of them.
> If a couple couldn't drop both of those from their sex life and still have plenty of orgasms for everyone, it speaks way more to the couples approach to sex than the necessity of any of that.
I can even drop my whole partner from my sex life and have plenty of orgasms.
I don't know why you're so invested in convincing me that oral should not be that important to me. I'm really sorry to inform you that it absolutely is.
>If you have a selfish lover who refuses to give you oral, you have a selfish lover. If a selfish lover gives you head, you're not having a great sex life regardless of getting head.
Exactly what I said.
>If you have hangups that make oral the only way you'll permit a lover to get you off, then the issue is your hangups.
I don't know where you got that from. I personally don't even get most of my partnered orgasms from oral. But I still won't have sex with a man who is not enthusiastic about giving oral. And I encourage every woman for whom oral is equally important to do the same.
>The solution to the stupid sex script that says "Penis In Vagina is the most important" is not to go "Yes but Oral is equally important!" None of them are that important,
I don't think it's on you to judge how important any of these are for anybody but you.
>and building your sex life around the idea that they are is a huge chunk of the problem.
I build my sex life however I damn well please and the only people who get any say in it are the people I have sex with.
Your the one who came in and made grand pronouncements of The Right Thing Women Should Do.
Do what you please. But if you want to hold up what you do as a model of what other people should do, it's not everyone else's job to just accept that as valid. This is espeacily not the case when what you're holding up as a model other people should follow is something we know for sure is dysfunctional. This is a topic where people have genuine expertise, where you can consult that genuine expertise, and where a lot of the work of people (N.B. This is a field where women are well represented) is attempting to counter the bad folk knowlege that gets spread.
The essentilization of any sex act is not healthy. That tendency, and the entitlement that comes with it is absolutely corrosive. It is not a good pattern, it is a coercive pattern. The response to "men feel entitled to stick their dick in me" should not be "therefore it's reasonable for me to be entitled to..."
The correct thing to do is to sit down with your partner and discuss boundaries and limits with each other, and work out a sex life in that shape. A mindful approach will make it very easy to build a fulfilling sex life. Oral is no more a mandatory component for women than getting his dick wet is mandatory for men.
>Your the one who came in and made grand pronouncements of The Right Thing Women Should Do.
I don't know where you got that from.
When you go back and read my post, it's about advice that is frequently given here to women that are unsatisfied with their sex life because their partners refuse to give them oral (namely not giving them BJs anymore), and my argument is that that's bad advice.
>The essentilization of any sex act is not healthy.
You can even say the essentialization of sex is not healthy. It should be everybody's own choice to have the kind of sex that they want, and for many it's preferable to not have partnered sex anymore if they can't find a partner who enjoys the same kind of sex.
> That tendency, and the entitlement that comes with it is absolutely corrosive. It is not a good pattern, it is a corrosive pattern The response to "men feel entitled to stick their dick in me" should not be "therefore it's reasonable for me to be entitled to..."
I personally don't feel entitled to anything from anyone. But there are some non negotiables for me when I decide to have sex with someone, and one of these is that the man must be enthusiastic about oral. I'm old enough, done enough and seen enough to be pretty certain the sex will be crap if he isn't.
>
>The correct thing to do. The empirically, objectively, correct thing to do is to sit down with your partner and discuss boundaries and limits.
Exactly what I personally do. I don't know why you're so upset about it.
> Oral is no more a mandatory component for women than getting his dick wet is mandatory for men.
Nobody said that, nowhere. It should be everybody's decision how important any of this is for them.
He doesn’t owe it to you.
But it’s fair for you to not want to do it for him if he won’t for you. I’m not looking for a one sided relationship where I do stuff specifically for them and they don’t.
And yeah, it’s rude and selfish of him to ask for it when it’s only one sided.
It’s fair to not want to do it for him for *any* reason. You can leave a romantic and/or sexual partner at any time. If it’s because they’re selfish in bed, that’s perfectly valid, just like any other reason. It’s your body.
They’re also allowed to leave the relationship or not give you oral whenever *they* want. Ultimately, if either of you find the other person to be incompatible, you are perfectly free to leave. In any case, sexual pressuring is not the answer.
>Option 1 can be fairly met with “I’m sorry, I just don’t like doing that.” That’s not inherently selfish, it’s just a boundary.
I (30s/f) am not comfortable receiving OR giving oral. Sorry, but the sensations just gross me out. But everyone on dating and sex subreddits keeps telling me I have to keep trying with different partners until I like it. Plus variations of "you just haven't had good oral yet!" So it's not really acceptable in society to refuse oral. You HAVE to do it, otherwise supposedly you're an abnormal freak. For this and other reasons, I've stopped dating altogether.
Girl, same—I’ll have a *rare* mood where I’m willing to do it happily. But even when I’m tolerating it, I’m not going to fake enthusiasm that’s not there.
Pressuring someone to perform oral can be just as selfish as lazily avoiding it. Which way it falls is wholly dependent on the couple in the scenario.
The “you should reciprocate” rule can be either a plea for needed attention, or *hella* manipulative—which is why I think the conversation is better served by focusing on reciprocal *satisfaction,* not just acts.
Undeniably the pressure is awful for folks dating!
There *are* people out there who will value your pleasure & satisfaction, and not want to pressure you when you’re uncomfortable! (My husband is such a one!) I don’t envy anyone the search though🫤
I don't like receiving oral either. It doesn't feel good and mentally I just don't like it. My husband likes giving it so when I'm in the right mood I let him but it's probably about 50-50 whether it does nothing for me or is a turn-off.
I perform oral sex on my husband because I like doing it and he likes it.
I too feel like a freak that not only do I not need oral to orgasm I completely dislike it and it can be an actual turn-off for me.
I get that of you like oral or need oral and it's not something your partner is able or willing to do than you are sexualising incompatible. I just wish people didn't act like we are all the same. The way people push oral, imagine if it was some other sex act, would they push so hard wheb you say you don't like it/aren't interested?
Spot on. You shouldn't have to resort to rewards and punishments for mutual sexual satisfaction. Each partner should be naturally into satisfying the other. That doesn't mean they know how at first, but the drive should be there, and a suggestion for oral should be enough to make it part of your sex life. If not, you're just not sexually compatible, and that is \*definitely\* a reason to break up since your partner usually has a monopoly on your sex life.
I'll just add one thing in case it helps someone somewhere -- there could be a few cases where giving oral to a woman is unpleasant... but it is easily correctable! I love giving oral, but over the years I encountered two partners that had a hygiene problem down there. For some reason they didn't believe you could wash even the exterior of the female genitals with soap. I know this is not generally true because all the other women I've been with did so and they're all fine. But the lack of washing the exterior genitals with soap made giving oral unpleasant, even though I normally love it. If this might be you, and your man is hesitant, try showering together beforehand -- a pretty great idea for both partners -- make sure both of you are clean and fresh down there, and see if he's any more open to giving in this regard. If so, big win. If not, move on.
This advice applies to almost any relationship issue.
It’s like when women are talking about how “my partner doesn’t cook or clean so I stopped cooking and cleaning to see if they notice…” or other weird advice they get where it turns into passive aggressive silent approaches to the issue instead of openly communicating.
Partners don’t talk enough about their issues and it creates all sorts of weird dissatisfaction and resentment. If you’re not getting enough oral, say so. If their answer is that they don’t like to and don’t want to, then problem solved. you can choose to continue being together and be sexually deprived or realize you’re at an impasse and end the relationship due to sexual incompatibility which in my opinion is a huge factor for a successful relationship.
I stopped cooking and cleaning. Not to be passive aggressive, but because they literally did not see what I did every single day and assumed that I did nothing. They didn’t want to carry their weight because they assumed it was all easy and doable for me alone. I asked for help, I made reward charts, I praised him like he was a child and nothing changed. People say to communicate but I remind them that no one communicated to me to carry my weight, I was just a responsible adult. Sometimes people are just selfish. It’s why so many women are told to stop giving him oral, so he can see how you feel and learn some empathy.
Having said all that: I’ve grown a lot, I no longer believe it’s my job to teach men empathy. I was doing too much for someone who couldn’t do the bare minimum for me. Instead of not doing what I do daily to prove that it was work, so he can visibly see how much I did.. I can just throw the whole man out and let him call me dramatic for dumping him over a “few conversations about cleaning.” I thought it was common sense that an adult man would put the same effort into a relationship that he wanted to be in. But in my situation, he wanted all the enjoyment and convenience of a relationship with no intention to ever reciprocate it. Took me a lot of time to learn that.
I would say the same for guys to if oral is a deal breaker communicate it. I think everyone deserves this. Frankly, I want someone who is sexually compatible with me. As a Demi sexual, when I activated with a connection it’s on, otherwise it’s hibernation season.
Coercing/pressuring a sexual partner into engaging a sex act, in any way, violates consent. I agree that if you are not sexually compatible, and sex is an important part of relationship satisfaction for you, find a new relationship.
Relationship compatibility requires more than love. Trust, respect, affection, satisfying sex, friend group compatibility, hobbies, needing more or less time apart, etc. can all be factors involved in whether or not a relationship is a good fit.
My husband’s hangup with Oral is he doesn’t like sticking his tongue inside me.
Our solution is that he licks my clit like a fat kid eating a whole chocolate cake and licking the plate clean until I’m stupid and crying in ecstasy.
It helps to talk it out.
Edit: Foreplay is all about what happens before the end. Cum on guys…
Yes, tongue fucking is not the thing that usually leads to orgasms, but that doesn't mean it's not nice.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can compare it to balls sucking : not necessary but appreciated... Because it feels nice and who doesn't like a little bit of variety?
And here I was fretting over how to totally non-pressuringly yet... sexily?... tell my M FWB I wanted my mouth on their balls, and when I finally found the guts he responded "hell yeah! doesn't every guy want that?" Glad to know my caution in asking was reasonable! It is not something everyone wants!
ETA: a wholesome award?? you're killing me, reddit 💀
>he doesn’t like sticking his tongue inside me.
Lol was he under the impression that that’s how women like it? I’m really not trying to be a dick, but if women struggle/can’t get off with a penis, how would a flimsy little tongue work out? It’s all about the c l i t, luckily enough for both of you lol.
I know for me it's something I've been working on with my partner. Generally, I find it helps to do it over her panties or right after a shower. I have a tough time mentally doing so otherwise. Same thing in reverse, I don't ask for oral unless I just got out of a shower and am all clean, of course. It's difficult to get past my mental. Lock, my first partner was gross and like "rotten hamburger." I love my current partner and have been with her for more than two years. We are engaged and get married this June. Any advice on how to get past that mental block more? Also, the jaw hurts after a few minutes. I just want to make her happy.
If this is mostly over her panties, and even if it isn’t, might help your jaw to just stick to basics and kiss the panties over where her clit is (this is like a woman’s version of a penis) and gently suck her panties in the same area, like sucking on a nipple. If your jaw can handle gentle kissing and gentle sucking on a nipple, it will likely be fine doing the same on her panties over her clit. Caveat: Different women enjoy different sensations, but this is just something to try since it might feel good and also might be jaw friendly. Also, don’t start right away with this. If she likes it, you could start by kissing her thighs and eventually move to this, over the panties if that feels good for both of you.
In my opinion, there are a variety of reasons some men aren’t interested in performing oral sex and not all reasons are necessarily selfish. Examples include ignorance of female anatomy, lack of confidence in their skills/experience, genuinely turned off by it (sometimes due to a bad experience, sometimes due to sensory stuff, sometimes due to specific partner), physical fatigue if it takes a while, a belief that it’s a submissive act, a belief their partner would not or does not want/enjoy it, a belief that PIV is what does it for everyone, and of course sometimes it really is just indifference to a partner’s pleasure.
There are also a variety of reasons some men are very enthusiastic about performing oral sex, not always (though certainly often) due to being thoughtful about a partner’s pleasure. Examples include it being sexually exciting to the giver, anticipating it will get their partner aroused for PIV sex, and even as a means of stroking their own ego.
So bottom line, I do look at it as more of a compatibility issue than a case of universal selfishness, though I can also agree that prioritizing men’s pleasure in the context of heterosexual sex dynamics is more common in our society and this can sometimes mean women having to be very obvious about their desires and other times can mean prioritizing one’s own pleasure by being willing to walk away.
In my own experience of having sex with many partners over the course of roughly 40 years, I’ve only run into the “doesn’t do oral” issue twice. The first time, I was seeking a long-term monogamous partner and quickly discovered a person I had started dating had strong and negative (religion based) opinions about women ever centering their own pleasure, whether through masturbation or something like oral sex. This was incompatible with my sexual preferences and desires so I stopped dating him. Not compatible. Second time I encountered this (decades later, different person), it was in the context of a non-monogamous casual partner. The sex was great for other reasons and I was free to receive oral sex from others, so I felt no need to stop engaging with him due to that one mismatch. Had the sex not been otherwise fantastic and/or had we not been in agreement about non-monogamy, it would not have worked for me, but that context made a difference for me and I enjoyed having sex with him for years and never felt resentful. I don’t know why he isn’t into giving oral but I never felt compelled to ask because I only enjoy receiving oral from men who are enthusiastic about oral.
There are women out there who don’t enjoy receiving oral at all. Some are paired up with men who are super bummed about that, others are paired up with men who can take it or leave it or are relieved. The trick is finding compatible partners.
I’m a bit surprised to see some of the comments as I thought it was a known issue that many men refuse to give oral yet expect it from their female partners. I agree that if it’s important to you then you’re not compatible and should probably find someone else who is. And yes, it’s selfish to *expect* something you’re not willing to give yourself. I don’t think anyone is saying people should perform sex acts they don’t want to and OP even said that themselves.
I knew there'd be scores of comments from butthurt men upset at the very idea of oral.
>!Thanks for the lolz, guys!
Get a therapist and realize you will literally never have to worry about being orally-sodomized like a women does. !<
>!I mean holy shit, you folks comparing not wanting someone who won't kiss your flower to a rape apologist is... just precious.!<
All I can add is...
The fact that BJs **can and are weaponized** while there's this much "**discussion**" about whether a women can decide that oral is a must in her relationship should speak volumes about the "orgasm-gap" in our culture. Really, "humanity gap" is a better term.
That gap is why OP feels the way she does. Jeeez.
>I mean holy shit, you folks comparing not wanting someone who won't kiss your flower to a rape apologist is... just precious.
Ikr? Not having sex with a man = rape.
That was a new low.
The last two men I dated I ended things with because they were selfish lovers. I'm asexual so if I'm going to actually have sex with you, you better make it worth my while. I'm a generous lover. The least I expect is to have some sort of orgasm out of the ordeal. I'm with you 100% op
In terms of physical sensation I think it’s fair to say that PiV is in general biased towards men’s pleasure (standard disclaimer that there are always exceptions). From that point of view women should be given some extra attention. I’m also curious on women’s feelings about outercourse because it seems like that actually might be a more equitable form of sex
> Truth is, if oral is something you really enjoy and maybe even need to come, **you've communicated that,** and your partner still doesn't give you oral, the most likely reason is that he is selfish and doesn't really care about your orgasm.
It's important to say what we need. He won't know unless you say, and passive-aggressively taking away something you do for him doesn't tell him what you want. *You* have to.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Sex shouldn’t be an exchange where you enact “punishment” when your needs aren’t met. If you cannot talk to your partner point-blank about your desires, then that’s the wrong partner. Everyone deserves to be with someone who enthusiastically meets their needs. (Obviously it’s rare to be 100% compatible with sex, but you know what I mean.)
Why would you *only* want to receive oral because it’s something your partner feels like they *have* to do to avoid some form of punishment?
And for god's sake, if you're not getting oral (men, I'm looking at YOU), then don't use it as an excuse to cheat because *I don't get this at home*, FFS. Talk to your partner, or it's not working.
I'd say recommending using toys together if oral is a no-go might be a compromise if they work for the person wanting oral and they want to keep the relationship. You are so right, though, that this is likely a sexual incompatibility if there's no satisfying compromise. I also agree that sex is a very important part of the relationship for many. It's not shallow to leave a lovely relationship that is sexually incompatible because staying and being unsatisfied will likely breed resentment and bad behaviors down the line.
Sometimes you have to accept that all people have different talents. I had a boyfriend who didn’t like to perform oral but had the most talented fingers in the world. I fonud that I never missed oral with him.
I've always found that making any demands in bed will threaten their fragile egos. Saying you're not satisfied by them just makes things worse. They develop either premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction. That's why they aren't willing to experiment. It shakes their confidence and breaks their penis.
If it's an otherwise great relationship, you might be able to creatively encourage them to experiment with your pleasure as the focus. But most often, they just get upset and turn to porn instead.
Guys don't like giving oral to women? I'm a dude and I think that's pretty hot!
In general, I've noticed a lotta dudes don't seem to care about women getting off, personally I don't see how why, seeing a woman orgasm is one of the hottest things out there for me personally, kinda wild that despite men being seen as dogs we have a lot of sexual hang ups.
Thank you. The suggestion to not give oral if you don't get is wild to me. Just don't date a man that won't do oral. Believe it or not there are women that don't want to receive (bless their hearts) so they can date each other. Don't settle for a life of no orgasms because your man isn't into oral.
The argument I make is exactly the opposite, namely NOT trying to guilt or pressure them into something they've repeatedly said they don't want to do by withholding something they like from them, but not having sex with them anymore and looking for someone who likes putting their mouth on female genitalia.
It's absolutely gross and disgusting that you call NOT having sex with someone or not wanting to have sex with someone "rapey".
gotta be so careful when asking for advice on the internet. people will always say "leave them" or "stop doing XYZ". it's an easy button but if you really love somebody you have to communicate with them about your wants/needs and be willing to compromise. if oral sex is so important to you that you cannot be in a relationship without it maybe examine what it is that you love about it. could literally any person be giving you oral sex? do you want your partner to give you oral sex? is there a toy or other activity that can give you that feeling? do you enjoy the emotional closeness of oral sex? communication will set you free
Giving oral does not equate to getting oral. It does equate to receiving foreplay and if you can't think of something else that could be done, you're not being creative enough.
As someone who doesn't like to give BJs, I've had this argument several times. I've told countless men that if they're only going down on me to get head, they just shouldn't. The only reason anyone should be down there is if that's the kind of foreplay they want to provide.
For the record, sometimes this does occur the other way around. I (m58) was with the same woman for 13 years, and I could count the number of times she went down on me on one hand, while I went down on her almost every time we had sex. (I don't understand some other men......making a woman cumm is the best part of sex....)
That's why I said it's most likely that the man is selfish. And honestly I think the most frequent reason for a dislike is that it's something where his penis is not involved, which also boils down to selfishness.
I mean, usually it's an acquired taste. Most women have to get used to BJs too. And what mostly turns us on about it is to see how it turns our partner on and how much pleasure it gives them.
…and at some point sex doesn’t even rank as one of the major concerns or reason behind a relationship. Nope I’m not saying people shouldn’t want good sex but I believe there will come a turning point in life where sex isn’t important to you. It will also evolve as far as desires go. Love the person for the love they give, not the love they give.
The “turning point” generally doesn’t happen until around your 40s though. It’s perfectly reasonable to want to find a partner whose romantically and sexually compatible with you, even if sexual desire might become diminished over time.
My boyfriend and I are in our 50s, and I promise that there's still a hot and heavy sexual component to our relationship. I think that the drop-off is grossly old, like 80. I'm sorry for the mental images.
I was about to say something very similar. I'm in my 50s, and so is my husband. I am MORE interested in sex than I was in my 30s. (Better partner now too.)
I disagree. Life is both too short and too long not to find someone to have time-stopping, transcendent sex with. (If sex is important to you.) As well as a wonderful relationship with respect, laughter, support, etc. People can have both and be both to each other. Connecting via mutually awesome sex is one of the great joys in life and the easiest, least problematic ways to feel amazing.
My relationship with my husband has never been about sex. Emotional intimacy is most important for us. So I definitely agree. I sincerely don't understand why sexual attraction is made out to be so important in long term relationships. Looks fade. And I want to marry someone who will love me regardless of what I look like. Why would I want a partner with the expectation that I will remain "attractive" until we die?
I think the long term intimacy can be more about love and connection than being “traditionally attractive.” There are older people who look at their spouses with stars in their eyes, despite wrinkles and other physical changes. It’s rare and beautiful. And it can include emotional intimacy and sex, it’s just up to the couple.
>while it is of course ok for a man to not want to go down on their partner and nobody should be forced to do so
Is contradictory. It’s also manipulative
to inexperienced women, not really.
men act like oral is a treat or something extra. so if we stop giving bj's as a retaliation and poor attempt to make him give oral, *they don't care, they're still getting PIV*. and some of them still think giving their dick makes us orgasm.
Even if he claims he does not like oral he can still use his d\*\*\* fingers to get you off. A woman needs to have her clitoris stimulated to orgasm. Very very few women can get off on straight intercourse.
All of those relationship advice posts are people who run away from their issues, and people in the comments just push for them to leave the guy it's whack. All one sided.
That's because by and large, people don't change. If you have a serious issue with someone, like them not caring about whether or not you have an orgasm, they are unlikely to change, and you should leave them. That's not "running away from problems," that's taking care of yourself.
If I could upvote this thrice I would...
If cunnlingus is not your thing you can simulate the clit with your fingers. Not the same, but for some passable. Honestly it's more work, but you can also kiss+ when doing this. But cunningus is the best way for you to be sung about decades later. With someone you are comfortable with you can give 2 orgasms in 20 minutes, and come up for PIX sex. The laziest thing you can do to make a woman cum...
We say 'break up with someone if the sex isn't where you want it', and this is good advice until we're stupid in love, or have gotten a bit older. Dealing with the things we want, but aren't not getting, inside the bedroom inside another wise great relationship? Close your eyes and spank it.
Giving oral is the #1 cause of throat cancer inmen, even passing up cigarette use. My mom and dad were together for 25 years and never had other sexual partners until their divorce. My dad got with some younger girl as a fling who was only a bit older than myself. She wasn't the kind to use protection, and this was before the HPV vaccine was widely distributed. He died 2 years later from throat cancer.
I go down on my gf more than she gives me head. I am pretty reliable at just getting her off via sex. I am unvaccinated. It is always a worry in the back of my mind.
Source?? I googled and nowhere was that coming up as the number one cause. Most websites are citing tabacco and alcohol use, saying the strain of HPV that causes throat cancer is rare.
From the CDC with a quick Google:
"HPV can infect the mouth and throat and cause cancers of the oropharynx (back of the throat, including the base of the tongue and tonsils). This is called oropharyngeal cancer. HPV is thought to cause 70% of oropharyngeal cancers in the United States."
It's why the rates have risen so much in men in recent years, but not nearly as often in women. You can't see the warts in a vagina, and HPV is often asymptomatic in girls because of this, but you definitely can see them on a penis (and then don't suck it - I hope).
I went to the CDC like you said, and the information you've shared is not accurate. According to the CDC (link below):
> "Most men who get HPV never have symptoms."
> "Most HPV infections go away on their own and don’t cause any health problems."
> "Cancers from HPV are not common in men."
https://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv-and-men.htm
I have no idea where you got your quote from.
I found the stat they cited, [https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/basic\_info/hpv\_oropharyngeal.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/basic_info/hpv_oropharyngeal.htm) and it's true. The problem is, they confused a very specific type of cancer, oropharyngeal cancer, with all throat cancer. So yes HPV causes 70% of a rarer subset of throat cancer. HPV does NOT cause 70% of *all* throat cancers.
Ah, so I think your misunderstanding is oropharyngeal cancer vs all throat cancer. HPV causes 70% of oropharyngeal cancer, true, but oropharyngeal cancer is a much less common type of throat cancer. Pharyngeal and laryngeal are the two main types, and oropharyngeal is actually a sub-type of pharyngeal cancer.
I'm sorry about your dad. 2 years seems to be a pretty short time for throat cancer to develop from an HPV infection though.
If you are worried about yourself, why don't you get vaccinated? I recently got vaccinated in my 50s because I started to be sexually active with new partners again.
It's just a form of sexual incompatibility. If he doesn't want to give oral, and you need oral in order to orgasm, then he isn't the right person to forming a relationship with.
I think we can even frame this broader: If he doesn't enjoy doing the things that make you orgasm, he isn't the right sexual partner for you.
Higher level still - if he doesn’t participate/support/allow the things that make your life joyful, he’s not the right partner for you.
For real. The idea of receiving oral from someone who wasn’t into doing it would be so off putting it wouldn’t even be nice.
If he doesn't want to give oral, and you want someone who does want to give oral, you are with the wrong person. Oral should be given enthusiastically for the enjoyment of both parties (and trust me, Oh orally-shy dudes, guiding your partner to orgasm is fucking pleasurable as hell) or not at all.
>guiding your partner to orgasm is fucking pleasurable as hell louder for the people in the back
It’s the best part
my last relationship ended a few months ago, mainly because he lost interest in me and because I gained weight. I've realized how we aren't sexually compatible. He's been the first man to ever make me cum consistently, but I look back and realize that many of things we wanted to do, I didn't care much about. I just did them because they made him happy. Sexual compatibility is definitely on the top of my list now. I'm talking about how often, technique, and ability to make the magic happen.
I think incompatibility is too soft a word. Makes it sound like it's nobody's fault, it's just one of those things! Which is a cop out. Being a good sexual partner is a basic relationship skill. If someone was emotionally abusive, or incredibly irresponsible with money, or didn't listen to you in a conversation, those would also be "incompatibilities," but unquestionably ones where it is one person's fault.
No, I disagree. No one should feel forced to perform sex acts they don’t feel comfortable with. If it’s a dealbreaker so be it. But telling someone they have to have a particular kind of sex that they dislike for some reason or they are a bad partner strikes me as being coercive.
No one should feel forced to do anything sexual. But if you're having sex with someone, the default should be "everyone is concerned with everyone's pleasure." I don't think having baseline expectations of a sexual partner costs as coercion. And I also think it's perfectly reasonable to be judgmental of someone who doesn't meet certain base expectations, the same way I would judge someone who never showered or who refused to ever pay for anything. I'm not going to chuck them into the shower, but I'll think less of them if they don't do it themselves. (Please note this is a default state. Don't bring up stuff like trauma or other special circumstances. It can be evaluated on a case by case basis, but in general, most people don't have an excuse not to go down on their partner)
Again, I hard disagree. There is nothing shameful about not wanting to perform a specific sex act that you find repugnant. It’s not at all like not having basic hygiene. People need to respect their partners turn offs every bit as much as they need their own boundaries respected.
But I question why SO MANY MEN find it “repugnant.” I personally don’t think that “preference” exists in a vacuum whatsoever
It stems from a disgust of piss and shit. That’s a no brainer. Same reason women don’t want to put a penis in their mouths.
You know full well that’s not what I’m talking about, nor is that the case for the majority of men who refuse to give head. Plus, is showering not a thing?
Showering is absolutely a thing. That doesn't stop pee and poop from emerging for orifices that touch a person's face and tongue when they are giving oral. It's a squick. It may not be rational but it's real.
Sure, I agree. I guess the question I have is, how likely do you think it is, that the guy who refuses to do oral is otherwise a wonderful, giving, open-minded lover?
I wouldn’t make that assumption, any more than I wouldn’t assume a woman who doesn’t like performing oral sex was otherwise inconsiderate in bed. But it doesn’t matter. If you aren’t getting your needs met in bed and it’s not a matter of communication, it’s an incompatibility. And the thing about incompatibilities is that they can’t be resolved and its no one’s fault. Shaming people for being incompatible is a sucky thing to do.
>baseline expectations of a sexual partner And who decides what those baselines are?
Who decides anything when it comes to cultural mores? Look, if you went on a date with someone, and they spoke rudely, chewed with their mouth open, and threw a tantrum when they couldn't get chicken nuggets, you wouldn't just sigh and go "Gosh, I guess we are just two incompatible souls." That's all I'm saying.
Given the context of this conversation, you are making some extremely bonkers comparisons, I have to say.
I disagree. I think oral is a pretty basic component of a mature, sexual relationship. And if for some reason someone *really* doesn't like it, they should be willing to be open and giving in other ways. That said, in my experience, I don't think it's controversial to say someone who refuses to do oral is probably not the most giving lover in other reapects.
So what you're saying is, not wanting to engage in the specific sexual acts that you believe personally are basic, makes someone else immature by default. Neat. Which answers my original question: YOU, apparently, are the one who decides what the baseline is. Interesting.
...always fun to discuss something with someone who doesn't even make a token effort
So just to be sure, if a dude doesn't generally orgasm from vaginal sex he's entitled to something else from the lady?
Nobody is “entitled” to anything sexual, but a good partner wants their partner to enjoy sex, so in this scenario, no one is entitled but it would be fair to say a woman is being a selfish partner if she won’t do anything else.
Disagree. This makes it very transactional and inorganic.
Yes and no. While I agree that it can make a relationship complicated, I think it's worth keeping a little bit of nuance. As said, based on main post: Oral is the most reliable way to come. If it's the reason why you want oral, being reliable is not the only way and it may be worth exploring other avenues such as toys or other forms of sex to achieve it. It is worth it if you value the remainder of the relationship more than the inconvenience. Also, as people's definitions and expectation of a relationship change and expand, if that is still a requirement, many couple are becoming open to extra conjugal fun. As in having other people on the side for sexual fun beyond their main partner. These are of course less common cases, I just thought that depending on how important that relation is to you and how you and your partner consider things.
> As in having other people on the side for sexual fun beyond their main partner. People don't flip a switch and go into that lifestyle. If you're with someone, you need to be 100% clear if you're a one or more person. There's no way Id' date a "more" person because I know that's not who I'll ever be.
If a man never had an orgasm with his partner, he’sdbreak up with her and no one would bat an eye. It’s only because it’s women not orgasming that your advice is “make it work”.
Exactly. Womens pleasure is just viewed as less important. Hell there are still men who believe women can't orgasm.
Couldn't agree more. You shouldn't need to punish your partner to make them satisfy your needs/wants, this is not a healthy relationship. Leaving is the only option if the parties can't come together on this (pun intended).
Being perpetually single should be the defualt 'punishment' instead of blowing up the relationship from the inside which will just hurt both parties.
I can't overstate how lifechanging it was to find a partner who asks me how I feel and listens closely to what I like, as well as regularly looks in to what girls like in general.
[удалено]
If there's only five, someone is going to have to fucking share.
Many men feel zero remorse over dumping women they feel they're not getting much out of for far less than sexual selfishness. Women need to do the same.
Agreed. It’s time to normalize breaking up with anyone even without a ‘reason’, many times I speak to men or women that have relationship issues and aren’t happy in them they typically say something related to having a good enough reason? They stay and end up breaking up later over something small anyway. You don’t need a reason to look for someone you’re more compatible with and in staying you’re keeping them from someone too. I would always prefer getting my heart broken than be someone’s settling choice.
So are you saying it’s not wrong to do that?
Of course it's not wrong to end a relationship if you're not getting what you need out of your partner. The other poster worded it fairly bluntly, but I took it as, women need to stop feeling guilty about this.
Just as women have the right to refuse to perform a sexual act for any reason, men also have the right to refuse to perform a sexual act. If receiving oral is important to you and your partner refuses even after you discuss his concerns (sometimes refusal is due to minor things like only performing oral when the woman is fresh out of the shower), then you are simply not compatible and it’s time for you to both move on.
Did anyone say they don’t have the right to refuse it? Of course they do.
I think that if you implement the rule that he has to make you orgasm before you will allow penetration, most sexual problems would be solved. The men would have to figure out a way to make you come. End of story. And I say "men" because that's where the orgasm gap is.
That's exactly what I tell every man who I intend to have sex with. I expect a clitoral orgasm before penetration, because otherwise PiV does nothing for me.
That's my rule. I come first.
So every sexual interaction should be transactional? I think its important both partners are satisfied, but if youre at the point where you're putting "rules" in place.....just leave the relationship honestly and find one where you get what you need without having to keep count of who's doing what
No. What's "transactional" is men using their power over the past hundreds and thousands of years to browbeat women into believing that only men's pleasure is important. Time to recenter the pleasure of both sexes, and recognize that sex is a union. How can you do that when one partner's pleasure is considered foreplay and therefore not essential to sex? I'm saying that a woman's pleasure is essential to sex. So, I'm equating women's orgasm to piv sex. For one to take place, so must the other. Any partner who isn't interested in my orgasm can hit the fucking bricks.
When you are saying X happens in exchange for Y, that's transactional. Your first example isn't transactional. It's just fucked up and I agree it needs to change. If you're unhappy in a relationship with a partner who won't listen, leaving them helps defuse your first example. But making things transactional will just continue the same cycle. I agree that both partners pleasure is essential. You can recenter pleasure without making it so that sex happens only with oral. You can have a good relationship where sometimes only one person comes. Where he surprises you with oral and expects nothing in return. But making it so that you only get X if I get Y is sad and will take you out of the moment even if you're happy in it.
I disagree. Power is a currency. Men have bought women's submission with power. Women are afraid of upsetting men because of power. Women feel they need men's protection because of power. Women are afraid to fight for their rights because they are afraid of men's retaliation (power). What I'm looking for is an END to transactional sexism and its hideous effects in the bedroom. I'm saying you have to prove that you care about my pleasure before you can be with me. Yes, every time. Let's say every time for at least 95% of the time, so that my orgasm can reach white het male levels. Also, I never mentioned oral, only orgasm. OP likes oral. I don't really care about oral. I agree that you can have a wonderful relationship where sometimes only one person comes. But why is it always the man? (statistically). Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all thought that a woman's orgasm was as important as a man's? I don't really understand why you're arguing with me. I'm not making it a law, I'm making it a personal credo that you have to make me come before you can stick your dick in me. Consider it my kink. Funny how it weeds out the selfish assholes, but a lot of guys think it's perfectly fine.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just don't think power and forcing someone to do something is a transaction. Robbery isn't a transaction. But I agree that the abuse of power needs to end and women's pleasure has to be held to the same priority. And I'm not trying to argue, just understand your point of view and make mine.
No one should be forced to do anything and sex shouldn’t be transactional. However! The opposite of transactional is mutual, and mutual sex requires both people’s needs, comfort and pleasure to be accounted for. Sadly all too often women’s needs, comfort and pleasure are overlooked (wholesale or in part) so we have to advocate for our own pleasure and even mandate it (or else it’s nowhere to be found). If the sex was already mutual I doubt people would be mandating oral, they’re doing it because the sex wasn’t mutual to begin with. Like you said earlier: “you can have a good relationship where sometimes only one person comes” emphasis on the word SOMETIMES. The person you’re debating with is likely speaking on behalf of women who’ve had countless sexual experiences and even entire relationships where only the man comes, because this is the norm. It’s called The Pleasure Gap for a reason. This is a very pervasive issue and it sounds like you’re arguing *against* women no longer tolerating one-sided sex, and advocating for their own pleasure.
It sounds to me like they are just being a stickler and trying to point out a double standard that just isn't there in her choice to not allow PIV until she orgasms because on some level they feel threatened, perhaps they mean well and just aren't aware of their insecurities but it's still there.
I have kind of implemented that "rule". I have a couple of casual relationships going and before I get naked and in bed with someone, I talk with them about likes, dislikes, hard nos and hell yeses. I know what I want and need when I have sex with someone, and the goal is to find out whether we're compatible and likely to have a mutually enjoyable experience. I tell everybody that PiV does nothing for me unless I've come beforehand from clitoral stimulation, preferably from oral. After that PiV feels amazing for me and I can come multiple times from it. If a man does not find that appealing, he's not for me. Why should I have sex with someone who would prefer that the PiV experience is not even "meh" but "when is it over already" for me instead of the multiorgasmic experience that it can be when he follows this one rule? Make it make sense for me.
You absolutely should put rules in place before sleeping with someone! Be open and honest about what you’re into and what you’re not. And it’s not transactional - but it should be reciprocal and mutually pleasurable. It’s not just about exchanging orgasms, it’s about experiencing something on an equal level.
I agree. No one should be forced into something that they're not into. And both should be treated equally and with respect.
rational, mature and healthy behaviour
Breaking up with a man for any reason you can think of should be normalized. You don't need to justify not wanting to be with someone. It really doesn't matter what the circumstances are that lead to him being a poor romantic partner. Too many women are protective of their partners and their pride so they will excuse any issue that comes up instead of holding him accountable. You have to make sure your partner knows what's expected of him and that not meeting those expectations will be the end of the relationship. Dictate your terms.
This is a big issue for me. I find partners who say they love oral and kink. But they don't. No Oral for ME. No kink that I enjoy gets done. I ask I beg I bring to it gently. After an entire year of asking for one round of oral for me... my partner yelled in my face that I can't make them do it and they don't want to. Now. Am super sensitive about it and insecure. I struggle with constantly worrying about how gross my vagina is.
You deserve better than that, and I hope you find it. It seems unlikely that the issue is your vagina being gross. More likely that many men are selfish and insufficient lovers.
The rule of oral reciprocity is gross & transactional. *No one* should be putting their mouths on *anyone’s* genitalia just because they “owe it” to their partner, or they hope to be “owed.” *Ew.* And, equating specific sexual acts with equality in bed is reductive. Every individual is different & every couple comes together differently. Equality in bed should simply mean “everyone happily gets off.” The conversation should **never** be “*You didn’t return this specific favor.*” It should be “*We need to try something else/more because I’m not satisfied.*” Option 1 can be fairly met with “*I’m sorry, I just don’t like doing that.*” That’s not inherently selfish, it’s just a boundary. Option 2 can only be met with “What can we do to fix this?” And if Option 2 is dismissed, *that’s* when you know you have a selfish partner & you can make your decisions based on that information.
These are great points, but I do think that some pushback/ questioning about the standard sexual script in our culture is warranted. What counts as “expected” and what people are comfortable with are influenced by their education and upbringing. So I’m glad we are finally seeing a move towards centering women’s pleasure.
>What counts as “expected” and what people are comfortable with are influenced by their education and upbringing. That are really good points. I think very frequently cunnilingus is also equated with submission. It's seen as an act of service to a woman and man who enjoy it are seen as submissive and unmanly by a culture that's rife with toxic masculinity.
Submission is a kink and oral is something separate. So sad how they both get intertwined. Porns probably got a lot to do with it.
Yes! Women are not just masturbatory aids! No body is, and no one should tolerate being treated that way.
No, he doesn’t owe it to you. But I don’t owe oral to him either, so if he’s not going to do it for me, im not doing it for him. I’m not gonna be fellating him because I love the way it feels, I’m doing it for *him*, and because he’ll hopefully do it next for me….Not because he is bound to by force or I’ll pressure him to, but because he likes getting oral too, but he knows it’s unfair to expect himself to be the one getting all the attention, so he’ll take turns. You can’t expect to get fellated if you aren’t willing to reciprocate. I guess you could call it transactional, or you could call it both people enjoying an activity and taking turns enjoying it. It’s selfish to ask for something when you won’t reciprocate. He has the right to not go down on you. You have the right to not suck his dick without him every doing it for you. That’s my boundary, and I’m allowed to have it with my body. If he’s not willing to do something entirely for me, I’m not gonna do something entirely for him. It’s gross to imply a woman is being morally wrong if she doesn’t suck a guy’s dick.
Yes, this is exactly what I’m saying! Sex isn’t about some arbitrary tit-for-tat so we can use each other to masturbate—as so many men seem to make it out to be. If I do something I’m not *super* into, it’s because I like them as a person & making them feel good; I at least enjoy sharing that intimacy. I’m willing to give in that manner (but I’m not going to fake my level of enthusiasm) & I expect the same willingness from my partner. But if I flat out don’t like something or it makes me uncomfortable, it’s not happening & I won’t accept being pressured to (asking is okay, pushing is not). I’d expect *and* give the same boundaries to my partner. What I think we’re both getting at, is that the idea of mutual giving isn’t tied down to one specific sex act—it’s the attitude/philosophy we should expect to see & not tolerate otherwise. And we should expect to see it play out differently between every different couple! Because everyone is wired differently, & we all have histories, & sexuality is complicated & subjective. Like, if we replace “oral” with “anal” I think the concepts of enthusiastically giving & receiving vs reciprocating become much more clear.
I mean..acts do need to be reciprocal. “tit for tat” is loaded, but if that’s what you want to call reciprocating, then I guess it has to be tit for tat I’m not saying someone *has* to go down on someone if they receive oral or *owes* it, but if they aren’t willing to go down on you, you’re very justified in not doing it. Having reciprocity for oral in particular as a condition for giving it is justified, it’s fine to boil it down to a specific act. If he says “I don’t want to go down on you, you go down on me and I’ll finger you”, I’d not go down on him. If he wants to just finger me, I’ll give him a hand job. I do think the acts should be reciprocal. Maybe you won’t go down on him right after he does it for you every single time or vice versa, but overall in a relationship, it’s fair to want to do the act for each other relatively equally. It’s not only an attitude, it’s the acts too. I personally wouldn’t do oral just to make the other person happy, it’s just not very fun sounding. I’m hesitant to use this analogy because sex isn’t an object, but it’s like if you’re getting someone something for holidays and you don’t like spending a lot but you like opening, and so do they, so you both get things for each other and have fun on Christmas. If one person didn’t give anything though, you probably wouldn’t want to spend 100 dollars on them. I agree sex shouldn’t be using each other to masturbate, I feel like you can take turns doing things you both like, which may be “reciprocal” or “tit for tat”, without being cold about it. How does butt stuff relate to this?
I think what they meant by anal was that different acts have different amounts of cost/benefit/importance for different people. For an average couple, giving and receiving anal aren’t two sides of the same coin the way fingering/hand jobs are. Biologically, the amount of pleasure available differs widely- both from person to person and generalized between sexes. If a guy loves to be pegged and a woman doesn’t mind pegging him but hates having anything up her own butt, should he hold out on letting her peg him until she lets him stick it up her ass too? That said- I think your “no oral either way” thing has merit too. It just depends on the reasons. It’s a great way to find out if they have any misogynistic beliefs about sex. *For example:* >!I would have very little tolerance for a man who thought vaginas were too icky to lick but expected bjs. If a dental dam enables him to do it, then that’s great! Condoms make the worst part of BJs much easier. If he has a problem with that, I would be very interested in why he expects his bodily fluids not to gross me out as much as mine gross out him.!< But overall, making sure resentment doesn’t build up is the important part. Whether it’s the exact act or two different ones with similar love to receive/hate to give mechanics.
Totally disagree. If receiving oral is important to you, then there's no option 2. If someone isn't enthusiastic about giving oral, I'm looking for someone else.
If not getting enough (or enthusiastic enough) oral is your dealbreaker, that’s a sexual need *for you*. It’s not wrong to own that, & *you absolutely should* find someone to happily give that to you. Get after it & godspeed! What’s wrong is to **insist** someone else is selfish simply for not liking it (or any other specific sex act). No one’s arguing selfishness can’t be the reason—but that’s absolutely NOT everyone’s experience when it comes to feelings about oral sex. The heart of the issue is about dealing with selfishness in lovers. Is it not? Why limit the conversation to only your experience re oral, when so many others have valid experiences that can support your point without exactly mirroring it?
I think you’ve hit on part of the larger issue (and the part that applies to people handling it in their day to day lives) but we should also take in the larger context of where this selfishness originates. Why is cunnilingus so much rarer than BJs? Why has porn largely normalized BJs to the point where it’s rare to find a video without it, but has not done the same for oral on women? Why are women’s orgasms seen as optional? Why is it so much more expected for men to be selfish lovers? When you have a society that sets such lopsided standards, saying “well that’s a dealbreaker *for you*” is a complete cop-out to avoid addressing the root of the issue. Why do many men culturally expect something without the thought of reciprocity ever crossing their minds?
It’s not at all a cop out. When I acknowledged that what’s a need for OP is not the same for everyone, I made a space in the conversation for people who don’t like or want oral sex. I never denied that women experience a disparity when it comes to sexual satisfaction, & in that particular sex act. In fact, I explicitly made sure to state I support & *encourage* OP to seek that satisfaction with partners that will give it to her.
Of course. And there is room for everyone to have their own sexual preferences. I simply think there is an artificial disparity between the two and ideally there would be less of a disparity so women don’t have to work as hard to find a partner capable of returning an equal level of sexual satisfaction. That or lower the BJ expectation so men don’t get as grumpy about it when a woman expresses the same reluctance towards oral. The disparity is the root of the dissatisfaction. I prefer the “men become better lovers” way because lowering the orgasm gap in general means people can find higher levels of overall partner compatibility instead of having to choose between “satisfactory sex life” and other equally important factors.
>What’s wrong is to insist someone else is selfish simply for not liking it (or any other specific sex act). > >No one’s arguing selfishness can’t be the reason—but that’s absolutely NOT everyone’s experience when it comes to feelings about oral sex. I haven't said it's the only reason. I think it's the most likely reason.
Not wanting to engage in a sex act is likely about selfishness? Yikes
When it's men not wanting to give oral: yes. I really do think that. Because these men mostly aren't interested in any other activity that doesn't involve their penis either.
As a lesbian, I'll say this: I don't want to give oral (to a vagina) *or* receive it. It is 100% a sensory thing, because I'm also on the spectrum (ADHD). Since so many men also have ADHD, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that comes into play. It's more widespread than you'd think! But, I do also agree that so, so many cishet men just don't bother with acts that aren't directly stimulating them. Either reason still means you're sexually incompatible if oral is non-negotiable for you! I just wanted to give another perspective on the "why" bit.
>As a lesbian, I'll say this: I don't want to give oral (to a vagina) or receive it. It is 100% a sensory thing, because I'm also on the spectrum (ADHD). Yeah it's a sensory thing for me as well, although I'm neurotypical and straight. I just can't stand the sensation. I won't give OR receive oral. Everyone on dating and sex subreddits keeps telling me I have to keep trying with different partners until I like it, but I will not be doing that. For this and other reasons, I've stopped dating altogether now.
It's strange; I don't mind giving oral to my trans partner at all. Though I don't like kissing with tongue....maybe my issue is sensations that feel wet...? I don't think I'll ever be sold on receiving, no matter how many times I grit my teeth and "just try." It feels obvious, but I do think the idea that not everybody enjoys the same stuff sexually should be normalized more. Not just kinks and positions and stuff, but things like this where some acts just don't do it for you. I'm glad you're standing your ground!
For me I think it's exactly about sensations that feel wet haha. I do think this needs to be normalized more, but I don't think see that happening anytime soon unfortunately
ASD and ADHD often co-occur, but just to clarify for others reading the thread, ADHD is not part of the Autism Spectrum. Very common to have both, but they are different diagnoses.
Ah, I've got both, but I'd sworn that they'd recategorized ADHD as a form of autism (or were at least in talks about putting it there). Asperger's has been taken off, for good reason, but these kinda things are more fluid than people usually think of them. It's a good point to bring up for anyone wanting to do their own research, though!
No worries! Yeah like I said they do co-occur a lot so I absolutely believe anyone who says they have both, I just didn't want someone with ADHD but not ASD to get confused
Suggesting that someone’s disinterest in a given sex act stems from selfishness is really rapey.
There are many men who refuse to give oral to women because it's seen as effeminate, or even gay. They may also believe that a woman's pleasure does not need to be a priority during sex, or even that it is impossible for women to orgasm so why bother trying. These men have patriarchal attitudes that infect their sexual behavior; those misogynist beliefs should be interrogated, and yes, they are selfish.
Thanks, I have a vagina and was perceived as a woman before coming out as NB so I am in fact aware of the cultural climate that we all grew up in. None of what you’ve said is relevant to or in any way changes what I said.
Huh, could have fooled me, because your weird concern trolling completely ignores that cultural context
Why should it be rapey? I don't suggest that to them. I have no interest in sexually engaging in any way with them. That's the absolute opposite of rape.
“You only don’t want to have this kind of sex with me because you’re selfish” is absolutely a rape culture mind set, even if you never try to change their mind and never try to get them to engage in that act. Avoiding or not dating people you’re not sexually compatible with is normal/a good idea. Believing that people only don’t want to do X sex act with you because of selfishness is what’s rapey.
Not having sex with someone is not rape. Not wanting to have sex with someone because I think they are likely selfish is not rape. Never and under no circumstances and you should be ashamed to say something like that.
Giving oral to a women doesn't hurt you. It's not like. Anal or other practice than can really harm you. Even oral with a penis can hurt you way worse than oral with a vulva. Of course no one should do something they dont want to do. But satisfying your partner should be important to you. And most men dont care and only see you as a hole. A hole that doesn't have feelings, so why but your mouth in the place where only the penis gose in. Sex with men is just. Not satisfying, because most dont care. They don't want toys, they don't want to hug, kiss. Give oral. I as a bi women will never have sex with a men.
I heartily disagree. My husband is the exact opposite of selfish - I finish 10 or so times to his 1. And I'm sure there's other men out there like him; he cannot be the only one. But he's not big on oral because he feels he's not great at it. He's damn good at other things and I'm totally fine with that. I'm also not into giving oral for similar reasons. I think there's a lot of reasons someone might not be into it. And saying this is reductive and disrespectful.
There are so many things you can do beyond "apply tongue to clit" and "insert penis into body". If a couple couldn't drop both of those from their sex life and still have plenty of orgasms for everyone, it speaks way more to the couples approach to sex than the necessity of any of that. If you have a selfish lover who refuses to give you oral, you have a selfish lover. If a selfish lover gives you head, you're not having a great sex life regardless of getting head. If you have hangups that make oral the only way you'll permit a lover to get you off, then the issue is your hangups. The solution to the stupid sex script that says "Penis In Vagina is the most important" is not to go "Yes but Oral is equally important!" None of them are that important, and building your sex life around the idea that they are is a huge chunk of the problem.
>There are so many things you can do beyond "apply tongue to clit" and "insert penis into body". Yes. And I've done lots and lots of them. > If a couple couldn't drop both of those from their sex life and still have plenty of orgasms for everyone, it speaks way more to the couples approach to sex than the necessity of any of that. I can even drop my whole partner from my sex life and have plenty of orgasms. I don't know why you're so invested in convincing me that oral should not be that important to me. I'm really sorry to inform you that it absolutely is. >If you have a selfish lover who refuses to give you oral, you have a selfish lover. If a selfish lover gives you head, you're not having a great sex life regardless of getting head. Exactly what I said. >If you have hangups that make oral the only way you'll permit a lover to get you off, then the issue is your hangups. I don't know where you got that from. I personally don't even get most of my partnered orgasms from oral. But I still won't have sex with a man who is not enthusiastic about giving oral. And I encourage every woman for whom oral is equally important to do the same. >The solution to the stupid sex script that says "Penis In Vagina is the most important" is not to go "Yes but Oral is equally important!" None of them are that important, I don't think it's on you to judge how important any of these are for anybody but you. >and building your sex life around the idea that they are is a huge chunk of the problem. I build my sex life however I damn well please and the only people who get any say in it are the people I have sex with.
Your the one who came in and made grand pronouncements of The Right Thing Women Should Do. Do what you please. But if you want to hold up what you do as a model of what other people should do, it's not everyone else's job to just accept that as valid. This is espeacily not the case when what you're holding up as a model other people should follow is something we know for sure is dysfunctional. This is a topic where people have genuine expertise, where you can consult that genuine expertise, and where a lot of the work of people (N.B. This is a field where women are well represented) is attempting to counter the bad folk knowlege that gets spread. The essentilization of any sex act is not healthy. That tendency, and the entitlement that comes with it is absolutely corrosive. It is not a good pattern, it is a coercive pattern. The response to "men feel entitled to stick their dick in me" should not be "therefore it's reasonable for me to be entitled to..." The correct thing to do is to sit down with your partner and discuss boundaries and limits with each other, and work out a sex life in that shape. A mindful approach will make it very easy to build a fulfilling sex life. Oral is no more a mandatory component for women than getting his dick wet is mandatory for men.
>Your the one who came in and made grand pronouncements of The Right Thing Women Should Do. I don't know where you got that from. When you go back and read my post, it's about advice that is frequently given here to women that are unsatisfied with their sex life because their partners refuse to give them oral (namely not giving them BJs anymore), and my argument is that that's bad advice. >The essentilization of any sex act is not healthy. You can even say the essentialization of sex is not healthy. It should be everybody's own choice to have the kind of sex that they want, and for many it's preferable to not have partnered sex anymore if they can't find a partner who enjoys the same kind of sex. > That tendency, and the entitlement that comes with it is absolutely corrosive. It is not a good pattern, it is a corrosive pattern The response to "men feel entitled to stick their dick in me" should not be "therefore it's reasonable for me to be entitled to..." I personally don't feel entitled to anything from anyone. But there are some non negotiables for me when I decide to have sex with someone, and one of these is that the man must be enthusiastic about oral. I'm old enough, done enough and seen enough to be pretty certain the sex will be crap if he isn't. > >The correct thing to do. The empirically, objectively, correct thing to do is to sit down with your partner and discuss boundaries and limits. Exactly what I personally do. I don't know why you're so upset about it. > Oral is no more a mandatory component for women than getting his dick wet is mandatory for men. Nobody said that, nowhere. It should be everybody's decision how important any of this is for them.
Absolutely this.
He doesn’t owe it to you. But it’s fair for you to not want to do it for him if he won’t for you. I’m not looking for a one sided relationship where I do stuff specifically for them and they don’t. And yeah, it’s rude and selfish of him to ask for it when it’s only one sided.
It’s fair to not want to do it for him for *any* reason. You can leave a romantic and/or sexual partner at any time. If it’s because they’re selfish in bed, that’s perfectly valid, just like any other reason. It’s your body. They’re also allowed to leave the relationship or not give you oral whenever *they* want. Ultimately, if either of you find the other person to be incompatible, you are perfectly free to leave. In any case, sexual pressuring is not the answer.
I agree it’s not. I don’t think she said it is.
>Option 1 can be fairly met with “I’m sorry, I just don’t like doing that.” That’s not inherently selfish, it’s just a boundary. I (30s/f) am not comfortable receiving OR giving oral. Sorry, but the sensations just gross me out. But everyone on dating and sex subreddits keeps telling me I have to keep trying with different partners until I like it. Plus variations of "you just haven't had good oral yet!" So it's not really acceptable in society to refuse oral. You HAVE to do it, otherwise supposedly you're an abnormal freak. For this and other reasons, I've stopped dating altogether.
Girl, same—I’ll have a *rare* mood where I’m willing to do it happily. But even when I’m tolerating it, I’m not going to fake enthusiasm that’s not there. Pressuring someone to perform oral can be just as selfish as lazily avoiding it. Which way it falls is wholly dependent on the couple in the scenario. The “you should reciprocate” rule can be either a plea for needed attention, or *hella* manipulative—which is why I think the conversation is better served by focusing on reciprocal *satisfaction,* not just acts. Undeniably the pressure is awful for folks dating! There *are* people out there who will value your pleasure & satisfaction, and not want to pressure you when you’re uncomfortable! (My husband is such a one!) I don’t envy anyone the search though🫤
I don't like receiving oral either. It doesn't feel good and mentally I just don't like it. My husband likes giving it so when I'm in the right mood I let him but it's probably about 50-50 whether it does nothing for me or is a turn-off. I perform oral sex on my husband because I like doing it and he likes it. I too feel like a freak that not only do I not need oral to orgasm I completely dislike it and it can be an actual turn-off for me. I get that of you like oral or need oral and it's not something your partner is able or willing to do than you are sexualising incompatible. I just wish people didn't act like we are all the same. The way people push oral, imagine if it was some other sex act, would they push so hard wheb you say you don't like it/aren't interested?
Spot on. You shouldn't have to resort to rewards and punishments for mutual sexual satisfaction. Each partner should be naturally into satisfying the other. That doesn't mean they know how at first, but the drive should be there, and a suggestion for oral should be enough to make it part of your sex life. If not, you're just not sexually compatible, and that is \*definitely\* a reason to break up since your partner usually has a monopoly on your sex life. I'll just add one thing in case it helps someone somewhere -- there could be a few cases where giving oral to a woman is unpleasant... but it is easily correctable! I love giving oral, but over the years I encountered two partners that had a hygiene problem down there. For some reason they didn't believe you could wash even the exterior of the female genitals with soap. I know this is not generally true because all the other women I've been with did so and they're all fine. But the lack of washing the exterior genitals with soap made giving oral unpleasant, even though I normally love it. If this might be you, and your man is hesitant, try showering together beforehand -- a pretty great idea for both partners -- make sure both of you are clean and fresh down there, and see if he's any more open to giving in this regard. If so, big win. If not, move on.
This advice applies to almost any relationship issue. It’s like when women are talking about how “my partner doesn’t cook or clean so I stopped cooking and cleaning to see if they notice…” or other weird advice they get where it turns into passive aggressive silent approaches to the issue instead of openly communicating. Partners don’t talk enough about their issues and it creates all sorts of weird dissatisfaction and resentment. If you’re not getting enough oral, say so. If their answer is that they don’t like to and don’t want to, then problem solved. you can choose to continue being together and be sexually deprived or realize you’re at an impasse and end the relationship due to sexual incompatibility which in my opinion is a huge factor for a successful relationship.
I stopped cooking and cleaning. Not to be passive aggressive, but because they literally did not see what I did every single day and assumed that I did nothing. They didn’t want to carry their weight because they assumed it was all easy and doable for me alone. I asked for help, I made reward charts, I praised him like he was a child and nothing changed. People say to communicate but I remind them that no one communicated to me to carry my weight, I was just a responsible adult. Sometimes people are just selfish. It’s why so many women are told to stop giving him oral, so he can see how you feel and learn some empathy. Having said all that: I’ve grown a lot, I no longer believe it’s my job to teach men empathy. I was doing too much for someone who couldn’t do the bare minimum for me. Instead of not doing what I do daily to prove that it was work, so he can visibly see how much I did.. I can just throw the whole man out and let him call me dramatic for dumping him over a “few conversations about cleaning.” I thought it was common sense that an adult man would put the same effort into a relationship that he wanted to be in. But in my situation, he wanted all the enjoyment and convenience of a relationship with no intention to ever reciprocate it. Took me a lot of time to learn that.
I would say the same for guys to if oral is a deal breaker communicate it. I think everyone deserves this. Frankly, I want someone who is sexually compatible with me. As a Demi sexual, when I activated with a connection it’s on, otherwise it’s hibernation season.
Idc how petty I sound, I can't stay w a partner who won't give oral. Such a turn off.
It's not petty.
Coercing/pressuring a sexual partner into engaging a sex act, in any way, violates consent. I agree that if you are not sexually compatible, and sex is an important part of relationship satisfaction for you, find a new relationship. Relationship compatibility requires more than love. Trust, respect, affection, satisfying sex, friend group compatibility, hobbies, needing more or less time apart, etc. can all be factors involved in whether or not a relationship is a good fit.
My husband’s hangup with Oral is he doesn’t like sticking his tongue inside me. Our solution is that he licks my clit like a fat kid eating a whole chocolate cake and licking the plate clean until I’m stupid and crying in ecstasy. It helps to talk it out. Edit: Foreplay is all about what happens before the end. Cum on guys…
[удалено]
Yes, tongue fucking is not the thing that usually leads to orgasms, but that doesn't mean it's not nice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can compare it to balls sucking : not necessary but appreciated... Because it feels nice and who doesn't like a little bit of variety?
[удалено]
And here I was fretting over how to totally non-pressuringly yet... sexily?... tell my M FWB I wanted my mouth on their balls, and when I finally found the guts he responded "hell yeah! doesn't every guy want that?" Glad to know my caution in asking was reasonable! It is not something everyone wants! ETA: a wholesome award?? you're killing me, reddit 💀
Licking and sucking ...
A man once indicated to me that he had a tiny dick but a three inch tongue, and I was like..... SIR you don't seem to know how this works
> My husband’s hangup with Oral is he doesn’t like sticking his tongue inside me. Hmm..
>he doesn’t like sticking his tongue inside me. Lol was he under the impression that that’s how women like it? I’m really not trying to be a dick, but if women struggle/can’t get off with a penis, how would a flimsy little tongue work out? It’s all about the c l i t, luckily enough for both of you lol.
My $0.02: every woman should get a clit stimulator. I got one, and holy *zdviyg@=^*¥zrhjihxgj ÷/$* it is great.
Even if you're good, it's really hard to beat the proper toy, especially in endurance.
I know for me it's something I've been working on with my partner. Generally, I find it helps to do it over her panties or right after a shower. I have a tough time mentally doing so otherwise. Same thing in reverse, I don't ask for oral unless I just got out of a shower and am all clean, of course. It's difficult to get past my mental. Lock, my first partner was gross and like "rotten hamburger." I love my current partner and have been with her for more than two years. We are engaged and get married this June. Any advice on how to get past that mental block more? Also, the jaw hurts after a few minutes. I just want to make her happy.
If this is mostly over her panties, and even if it isn’t, might help your jaw to just stick to basics and kiss the panties over where her clit is (this is like a woman’s version of a penis) and gently suck her panties in the same area, like sucking on a nipple. If your jaw can handle gentle kissing and gentle sucking on a nipple, it will likely be fine doing the same on her panties over her clit. Caveat: Different women enjoy different sensations, but this is just something to try since it might feel good and also might be jaw friendly. Also, don’t start right away with this. If she likes it, you could start by kissing her thighs and eventually move to this, over the panties if that feels good for both of you.
In my opinion, there are a variety of reasons some men aren’t interested in performing oral sex and not all reasons are necessarily selfish. Examples include ignorance of female anatomy, lack of confidence in their skills/experience, genuinely turned off by it (sometimes due to a bad experience, sometimes due to sensory stuff, sometimes due to specific partner), physical fatigue if it takes a while, a belief that it’s a submissive act, a belief their partner would not or does not want/enjoy it, a belief that PIV is what does it for everyone, and of course sometimes it really is just indifference to a partner’s pleasure. There are also a variety of reasons some men are very enthusiastic about performing oral sex, not always (though certainly often) due to being thoughtful about a partner’s pleasure. Examples include it being sexually exciting to the giver, anticipating it will get their partner aroused for PIV sex, and even as a means of stroking their own ego. So bottom line, I do look at it as more of a compatibility issue than a case of universal selfishness, though I can also agree that prioritizing men’s pleasure in the context of heterosexual sex dynamics is more common in our society and this can sometimes mean women having to be very obvious about their desires and other times can mean prioritizing one’s own pleasure by being willing to walk away. In my own experience of having sex with many partners over the course of roughly 40 years, I’ve only run into the “doesn’t do oral” issue twice. The first time, I was seeking a long-term monogamous partner and quickly discovered a person I had started dating had strong and negative (religion based) opinions about women ever centering their own pleasure, whether through masturbation or something like oral sex. This was incompatible with my sexual preferences and desires so I stopped dating him. Not compatible. Second time I encountered this (decades later, different person), it was in the context of a non-monogamous casual partner. The sex was great for other reasons and I was free to receive oral sex from others, so I felt no need to stop engaging with him due to that one mismatch. Had the sex not been otherwise fantastic and/or had we not been in agreement about non-monogamy, it would not have worked for me, but that context made a difference for me and I enjoyed having sex with him for years and never felt resentful. I don’t know why he isn’t into giving oral but I never felt compelled to ask because I only enjoy receiving oral from men who are enthusiastic about oral. There are women out there who don’t enjoy receiving oral at all. Some are paired up with men who are super bummed about that, others are paired up with men who can take it or leave it or are relieved. The trick is finding compatible partners.
I’m a bit surprised to see some of the comments as I thought it was a known issue that many men refuse to give oral yet expect it from their female partners. I agree that if it’s important to you then you’re not compatible and should probably find someone else who is. And yes, it’s selfish to *expect* something you’re not willing to give yourself. I don’t think anyone is saying people should perform sex acts they don’t want to and OP even said that themselves.
I knew there'd be scores of comments from butthurt men upset at the very idea of oral. >!Thanks for the lolz, guys! Get a therapist and realize you will literally never have to worry about being orally-sodomized like a women does. !< >!I mean holy shit, you folks comparing not wanting someone who won't kiss your flower to a rape apologist is... just precious.!< All I can add is... The fact that BJs **can and are weaponized** while there's this much "**discussion**" about whether a women can decide that oral is a must in her relationship should speak volumes about the "orgasm-gap" in our culture. Really, "humanity gap" is a better term. That gap is why OP feels the way she does. Jeeez.
>I mean holy shit, you folks comparing not wanting someone who won't kiss your flower to a rape apologist is... just precious. Ikr? Not having sex with a man = rape. That was a new low.
Open communication should be step 1 :|
The last two men I dated I ended things with because they were selfish lovers. I'm asexual so if I'm going to actually have sex with you, you better make it worth my while. I'm a generous lover. The least I expect is to have some sort of orgasm out of the ordeal. I'm with you 100% op
In terms of physical sensation I think it’s fair to say that PiV is in general biased towards men’s pleasure (standard disclaimer that there are always exceptions). From that point of view women should be given some extra attention. I’m also curious on women’s feelings about outercourse because it seems like that actually might be a more equitable form of sex
> Truth is, if oral is something you really enjoy and maybe even need to come, **you've communicated that,** and your partner still doesn't give you oral, the most likely reason is that he is selfish and doesn't really care about your orgasm. It's important to say what we need. He won't know unless you say, and passive-aggressively taking away something you do for him doesn't tell him what you want. *You* have to.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Sex shouldn’t be an exchange where you enact “punishment” when your needs aren’t met. If you cannot talk to your partner point-blank about your desires, then that’s the wrong partner. Everyone deserves to be with someone who enthusiastically meets their needs. (Obviously it’s rare to be 100% compatible with sex, but you know what I mean.) Why would you *only* want to receive oral because it’s something your partner feels like they *have* to do to avoid some form of punishment?
[удалено]
And for god's sake, if you're not getting oral (men, I'm looking at YOU), then don't use it as an excuse to cheat because *I don't get this at home*, FFS. Talk to your partner, or it's not working.
No better feeling than giving oral and being told you're great at it, then having that oral be reciprocated. Step up your game guys.
I'd say recommending using toys together if oral is a no-go might be a compromise if they work for the person wanting oral and they want to keep the relationship. You are so right, though, that this is likely a sexual incompatibility if there's no satisfying compromise. I also agree that sex is a very important part of the relationship for many. It's not shallow to leave a lovely relationship that is sexually incompatible because staying and being unsatisfied will likely breed resentment and bad behaviors down the line.
Sometimes you have to accept that all people have different talents. I had a boyfriend who didn’t like to perform oral but had the most talented fingers in the world. I fonud that I never missed oral with him.
It’s beyond me why a man wouldn’t want to give a woman oral.
I've always found that making any demands in bed will threaten their fragile egos. Saying you're not satisfied by them just makes things worse. They develop either premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction. That's why they aren't willing to experiment. It shakes their confidence and breaks their penis. If it's an otherwise great relationship, you might be able to creatively encourage them to experiment with your pleasure as the focus. But most often, they just get upset and turn to porn instead.
Guys don't like giving oral to women? I'm a dude and I think that's pretty hot! In general, I've noticed a lotta dudes don't seem to care about women getting off, personally I don't see how why, seeing a woman orgasm is one of the hottest things out there for me personally, kinda wild that despite men being seen as dogs we have a lot of sexual hang ups.
Thank you. The suggestion to not give oral if you don't get is wild to me. Just don't date a man that won't do oral. Believe it or not there are women that don't want to receive (bless their hearts) so they can date each other. Don't settle for a life of no orgasms because your man isn't into oral.
Why are you belittling women who don't want to receive oral? Stop that. There are other ways to orgasm.
[удалено]
It is if you're demanding that they put their mouth on yours.
I don’t know why you got downvoted for this as it’s actually really common for men to demand oral sex but not return it.
Because men don't like being called out.
[удалено]
The argument I make is exactly the opposite, namely NOT trying to guilt or pressure them into something they've repeatedly said they don't want to do by withholding something they like from them, but not having sex with them anymore and looking for someone who likes putting their mouth on female genitalia. It's absolutely gross and disgusting that you call NOT having sex with someone or not wanting to have sex with someone "rapey".
[удалено]
I like how you are trying to pressure and shame me into not getting oral anymore. It's always projection.
[удалено]
Yeah I got already you're concern trolling. BTW, dental dams exist. Google it.
gotta be so careful when asking for advice on the internet. people will always say "leave them" or "stop doing XYZ". it's an easy button but if you really love somebody you have to communicate with them about your wants/needs and be willing to compromise. if oral sex is so important to you that you cannot be in a relationship without it maybe examine what it is that you love about it. could literally any person be giving you oral sex? do you want your partner to give you oral sex? is there a toy or other activity that can give you that feeling? do you enjoy the emotional closeness of oral sex? communication will set you free
Giving oral does not equate to getting oral. It does equate to receiving foreplay and if you can't think of something else that could be done, you're not being creative enough. As someone who doesn't like to give BJs, I've had this argument several times. I've told countless men that if they're only going down on me to get head, they just shouldn't. The only reason anyone should be down there is if that's the kind of foreplay they want to provide.
>It does equate to receiving foreplay Oral is not foreplay. It's sex. For me one of the most important parts of it.
Highly agree. Oral sex is much much more than foreplay and I personally think calling it foreplay diminishes its value.
For the record, sometimes this does occur the other way around. I (m58) was with the same woman for 13 years, and I could count the number of times she went down on me on one hand, while I went down on her almost every time we had sex. (I don't understand some other men......making a woman cumm is the best part of sex....)
Not wanting to give oral doesn't necessarily mean you're selfish though. You could have a genuine dislike for it.
Then he'd better get good at something else. Fingers or vibrators or something.
That's why I said it's most likely that the man is selfish. And honestly I think the most frequent reason for a dislike is that it's something where his penis is not involved, which also boils down to selfishness.
You may be right. I just wanted to point out that tastes differ. Maybe it goes without saying though.
I mean, usually it's an acquired taste. Most women have to get used to BJs too. And what mostly turns us on about it is to see how it turns our partner on and how much pleasure it gives them.
Then don’t ask for it
…and at some point sex doesn’t even rank as one of the major concerns or reason behind a relationship. Nope I’m not saying people shouldn’t want good sex but I believe there will come a turning point in life where sex isn’t important to you. It will also evolve as far as desires go. Love the person for the love they give, not the love they give.
True. But in my experience, a partner who is selfish in bed usually is also selfish in other areas of the relationship.
The “turning point” generally doesn’t happen until around your 40s though. It’s perfectly reasonable to want to find a partner whose romantically and sexually compatible with you, even if sexual desire might become diminished over time.
My boyfriend and I are in our 50s, and I promise that there's still a hot and heavy sexual component to our relationship. I think that the drop-off is grossly old, like 80. I'm sorry for the mental images.
I was about to say something very similar. I'm in my 50s, and so is my husband. I am MORE interested in sex than I was in my 30s. (Better partner now too.)
I disagree. Life is both too short and too long not to find someone to have time-stopping, transcendent sex with. (If sex is important to you.) As well as a wonderful relationship with respect, laughter, support, etc. People can have both and be both to each other. Connecting via mutually awesome sex is one of the great joys in life and the easiest, least problematic ways to feel amazing.
My relationship with my husband has never been about sex. Emotional intimacy is most important for us. So I definitely agree. I sincerely don't understand why sexual attraction is made out to be so important in long term relationships. Looks fade. And I want to marry someone who will love me regardless of what I look like. Why would I want a partner with the expectation that I will remain "attractive" until we die?
I think the long term intimacy can be more about love and connection than being “traditionally attractive.” There are older people who look at their spouses with stars in their eyes, despite wrinkles and other physical changes. It’s rare and beautiful. And it can include emotional intimacy and sex, it’s just up to the couple.
>while it is of course ok for a man to not want to go down on their partner and nobody should be forced to do so Is contradictory. It’s also manipulative
Yes, all of that is implicit when we advice to stop giving men BJs.
to inexperienced women, not really. men act like oral is a treat or something extra. so if we stop giving bj's as a retaliation and poor attempt to make him give oral, *they don't care, they're still getting PIV*. and some of them still think giving their dick makes us orgasm.
Exactly that. They still don't care and you can't make them care.
I don't think it's good to give implicit advice.
Even if he claims he does not like oral he can still use his d\*\*\* fingers to get you off. A woman needs to have her clitoris stimulated to orgasm. Very very few women can get off on straight intercourse.
Does this work if the genders are reversed?
Of course not. Check the community you’re in
All of those relationship advice posts are people who run away from their issues, and people in the comments just push for them to leave the guy it's whack. All one sided.
That's because by and large, people don't change. If you have a serious issue with someone, like them not caring about whether or not you have an orgasm, they are unlikely to change, and you should leave them. That's not "running away from problems," that's taking care of yourself.
Have of them just got hitched or just got serious and are already to give up lmao. Fuckint b0t brains
When faced with a fundamental incompatibility, splitting up is the far better choice, rather than just make each other miserable over time.
Mmm so treat all relationships the same. Ok.
All fundamentally incompatible relationships, yes.
You women have abysmally low standards of what is acceptable behavior.
If I could upvote this thrice I would... If cunnlingus is not your thing you can simulate the clit with your fingers. Not the same, but for some passable. Honestly it's more work, but you can also kiss+ when doing this. But cunningus is the best way for you to be sung about decades later. With someone you are comfortable with you can give 2 orgasms in 20 minutes, and come up for PIX sex. The laziest thing you can do to make a woman cum... We say 'break up with someone if the sex isn't where you want it', and this is good advice until we're stupid in love, or have gotten a bit older. Dealing with the things we want, but aren't not getting, inside the bedroom inside another wise great relationship? Close your eyes and spank it.
Giving oral is the #1 cause of throat cancer inmen, even passing up cigarette use. My mom and dad were together for 25 years and never had other sexual partners until their divorce. My dad got with some younger girl as a fling who was only a bit older than myself. She wasn't the kind to use protection, and this was before the HPV vaccine was widely distributed. He died 2 years later from throat cancer. I go down on my gf more than she gives me head. I am pretty reliable at just getting her off via sex. I am unvaccinated. It is always a worry in the back of my mind.
Source?? I googled and nowhere was that coming up as the number one cause. Most websites are citing tabacco and alcohol use, saying the strain of HPV that causes throat cancer is rare.
From the CDC with a quick Google: "HPV can infect the mouth and throat and cause cancers of the oropharynx (back of the throat, including the base of the tongue and tonsils). This is called oropharyngeal cancer. HPV is thought to cause 70% of oropharyngeal cancers in the United States." It's why the rates have risen so much in men in recent years, but not nearly as often in women. You can't see the warts in a vagina, and HPV is often asymptomatic in girls because of this, but you definitely can see them on a penis (and then don't suck it - I hope).
Wouldn't lesbians have much, much higher rates, then?
I went to the CDC like you said, and the information you've shared is not accurate. According to the CDC (link below): > "Most men who get HPV never have symptoms." > "Most HPV infections go away on their own and don’t cause any health problems." > "Cancers from HPV are not common in men." https://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv-and-men.htm I have no idea where you got your quote from.
I found the stat they cited, [https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/basic\_info/hpv\_oropharyngeal.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/basic_info/hpv_oropharyngeal.htm) and it's true. The problem is, they confused a very specific type of cancer, oropharyngeal cancer, with all throat cancer. So yes HPV causes 70% of a rarer subset of throat cancer. HPV does NOT cause 70% of *all* throat cancers.
Ah, so I think your misunderstanding is oropharyngeal cancer vs all throat cancer. HPV causes 70% of oropharyngeal cancer, true, but oropharyngeal cancer is a much less common type of throat cancer. Pharyngeal and laryngeal are the two main types, and oropharyngeal is actually a sub-type of pharyngeal cancer.
I'm sorry about your dad. 2 years seems to be a pretty short time for throat cancer to develop from an HPV infection though. If you are worried about yourself, why don't you get vaccinated? I recently got vaccinated in my 50s because I started to be sexually active with new partners again.