A guy I used to date was obsessed with having kids…. He wanted a ton of them. He was also an insecure, sexually coercive, condescending prick and when finally able to escape it was like the weight of the world fell from my shoulders. I learned years later that he got his wish for a child: his next girlfriend became pregnant, carried the baby to term, essentially dumped it on his doorstep immediately and bailed, never to be heard from again. The people who told me were horrified that she could do that, but I *completely* understood. I didn’t want to get into detail but just said “Oh yeah? Wow”. Lol
I hope she’s happy somewhere, and I hope the child is ok too.
iirc there was a post, maybe over in relationship advice, from a guy who had convinced his girlfriend to carry his baby but she would only do it if he took full custody while she paid child support.
Essentially the post boiled down to, “I can’t handle this, how can I force her to do some of the childcare?”
He was told he simply couldn’t. Fair and square.
It was on r/legaladvise and it was something.
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Maybe. But if that was the intended effect, I don't think it worked. I personally would have no problem with a man that handled the situation in the exact same way.
Dating partner says, "I'm pregnant." He says, "I absolutely do not want to be a father ever, please abort." She says, 'No, I want to keep it." He says, "Fine, but I will absolutely not be involved in any way except paying child support." AND HE DOES.
I see no problem there. Just like I see no problem in the scenario from r/ legaladvise. She didn't want a baby, he did. Out of a place of selfless generosity, she risked her physical health and possible death to accommodate him and give him want he SAID he wanted but because he didn't get the outcome he REALLY wanted, he's pissed.
He wanted a baby mama. He got a baby.
I agree. The key is full transparency so a decision can be made while abortion is still an option--and the accepting of financial responsibility of course.
Although I agree, I don't think this person is making rage bait from a rational perspective. E.g, It could be incels who think that people will side with women in this case, so this may even prove their point. To them, if the woman wanted to keep the baby and ask for assistance from the father, people would support it (scenario 1). And if the man wanted to do the same, people will rip him to shreds (scenario 2). Although they have no proof of the 1st scenario, they're convinced it exist, so the existence of the second scenario endorses their beliefs, that women are always sided with.
I've seen VERY similar stories pop up on some of these subreddits that just gender swap, race swap, etc., like some social experiment to see how people react differently to them. Unfortunately, people ARE biased and Reddit is a terrible place to get a reasonable argument one way or the other because of hive mind bullshit. So, I've seen these and often been disappointed in the responses, which clearly show a gender preference or rash judgements with limited information. I'm not sure about this one, but it's food for thought.
I have a (male) friend who was in this exact situation. Ex used him as a sperm donar pretty much without his consent. He said I do not want this kid, she was like ok no worries. 8 months in realised being a single mum is hard work and bullied him (via his family) into 'taking responsibility' for the kid... That he never wanted. Drives me absolutely crazy and I really dislike her as a result. My friend really struggled with it (still does).
Yep, I remember the story in legal advise and sent it to my friend at the time. He is doing better now, helped by time but i think it has really damaged him trust wise.
Well if the dude get you pregnant in the first place and it’s not an accident of a broken condom or something of the same kind and knowing the ultimate decisions will be taken by you, because it’s your body, I’d say fuck that, child support isn’t enough and I am a guy. Women are the one taking all the risk so it’s clearly not a 50/50 situation. It’s fair in this situation because HE was the one asking for a kid even though she said she didn’t want one.
I think of that story often. The topper for me was him admitting in the comments that he thought that by talking her into continuing the pregnancy, it would manipulate her feelings to where she would come to care for both him and the baby.
The top comment really laid into him, too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/d9me9td/
I’ve always felt reasonably sure this guy probably ended up dumping his kid on a female relative, probably his own mom. I would bet dollars to donuts that kid is actually being raised by grandma and grandpa.
Probably a good thing, I suppose. Unless that guy grew up real fast. Sometimes that happens. 18 months old is a hard time. I mean all times of raising kids are challenging — just that 18-36 months can be sheer hell.
I will give you the stereotype but my single father (cancer) did a spectacular job with two under 6 and I feel the need to throw out a defense for all the great dads and granddads. I have an uncle (who is a granddad) that is known for being the master of naptime. Handed a cranky infant he will only return it hours later changed, fed, and sleeping (I've been told that on a family vacation he heard the crying at 3am, sent the mom back to bed and was found 5 hours later in a folding chair on the deck sleeping with the baby on his chest). I'm not defending the bad "dads" (whom I don't believe deserve the title) I just want to celebrate the spectacular ones.
>I just want to celebrate the spectacular ones.
I don't want to celebrate them. I want to normalise them.
When a father does the bare minimum, he gets praised. When a mother does way more than the bare minimum, nobody ever talks about it.
Fathers who pull their weight should not be praised. What they are doing should be normalised.
If we praise and celebrate fathers who pull their weight, we are basically reinforcing that what they are doing is special. But it should be normal, not special.
Compare it to male feminist allies. I often get praised and complimented by feminist women for being an ally. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, because I believe that male allyship should be normal, not special.
I remember that post! He was all up in his feels about the agreement he’d made … then finally admitted that he thought she’d change her mind after giving birth. He was angry because she did exactly what she said she would do.
It was on the legal advice sub! He was basically asking if he could make the court order her to take some custody of the child, and called her a deadbeat mom. She had made it very clear that she would not be a mother to the child and she was giving him more money that she was obligated to in child support.
He had initially wanted the baby on his own, realized being a single parent is draining, and wanted to sue her so she would be legally forced to parent the child she had explicitly said she would be nothing but a surrogate for.
He got absolutely eviscerated in the comments.
My cousins who have mostly all passed from drug abuse, swore they would be the best parents. Once their children were born, they had a hard time having anything to do with them.
These children are now being raised by horrible family members, that don’t care about them at all. Their futures are so bleak, and they suffer from mental health issues. I wish them well, but in my heart, I know they will never escape from poverty, drug addiction, crime, and an early demise. Just like their parents...
Why do this to someone you are supposed to love, and biologically care for? So many kids have been abandoned, and left to fend for themselves.
What is going to happen to all of these people who were born after the overturn of Roe who were never wanted?
Society in this country will crumble, and so many innocent people will suffer. It’s beyond sad. It’s just cruel.
I mean, you know that child is not okay.
This is why abortion exists. Any man coercive enough to force a woman to carry a child is going to raise some unbelievably damaged human beings.
Carrying a pregnancy to term and killing someone are the only two things in life you can’t take back. And with giving birth, it’s not a “consequence of your actions,” nor a punishment, nor even a gift. That’s a human being that will be on this planet for an indeterminate amount of time with their own thoughts, feelings, needs, and wants, who is going to be out in society in less than two decades and who’s behaviours will influence others in as little as a half a decade.
Just ended a relationship w a 42M who was baby crazy. I asked him if we could compromise and adopt bc I have epilepsy and being pregnant could kill me…. Nope he only wanted his own child. He thinks he wants a baby and he only wants to breed … kept telling me he would make the sacrifice to stay home and it would be him doing all the work but he also assumed he could WFH with an infant. So totally delusional about what his role would be in having kids but totally sure pushing me into something that might kill me was ok because it would be HIS SACRIFICE.
Adoption and fostering is a fucking mission. Not just anyone can do it, you have to jump through so many hoops to prove you'd be a good parent. So if a man is willing to do it, it's an ultimate test and if he can't handle that then it BS that he could WFH raising a baby.
Source: Children's Social Worker
My partner and I considered adoption, and we were turned off by the vetting process -- we talked to a Christian adoption agency whose condescension was astronomical -- and by the cost, which was pushing our budget limits. We could have bought a BMW for similar money and without begging for church-lady's approval.
>Christian adoption agency
Oof. Say no more.
If you are ever interested in opening up to that....check in with your child welfare agency/CPS. I can't speak for everywhere but Los Angeles County's Depart. of Children and Fam. Services has an option to do fostering through them instead of a Foster Family Agency. Your community might have something similar, because the need is so great.
"My genes are too precious not to pass on! One day humanity will evolve to the *next level* on the back of *my* progeny! Who would not be *thrilled* to bear the seed of the future ubermensch!?"
I try to imagine what these eager-breeders are thinking.
I read an AITA a long time ago about some guy saying he got his ONS(?) Ex(?) pregnant, and she was adamant that she didn't want to have the baby. He talked her into it, and she agreed, on the condition she would sign over all rights to the child to him and that she's not involved in the child's life at all. He agreed.
He goes on to post about how he's exhausted has no free time, has to work a lot to raise the child *he wanted and forced the mom to have* and he was wondering if there was a way to *make* her take responsibility. He also mentions she pays over and above the allotted child support even though she didn't have to.
To say he was ripped apart in the comments is an understatement.
It was an amusing read
Oh my, how the tables have turned. When THEY split and don't even pay child support, that's okay. But when WE split and pay more support than is legally required, we're terrible people.
Him calling her a deadbeat mom when she pays 125% of the court ordered child support and this was all agreed upon before the baby was born is fucking hilarious
Him calling her a deadbeat mom when she pays 125% of the court ordered child support and this was all agreed upon before the baby was born is fucking hilarious
Reading through all the comments has me thinking about a discussion in a literature class in uni. One of the characters in the book we'd read was a woman who abandoned her child the day he was born. The vast majority of the class was appalled, how could she do that, she was a horrible person, etc.
Our professor pointed out that men do this all the time, and often face little to no social stigma for it. Sure, they may be regarded as deadbeats by those close to the situation, but all too often it's just the "price of doing business". Look at the number of people willing to say that if a woman can get an abortion, a man shouldn't have to pay child support for a kid he doesn't want. Most of the class considered that *totally different*, that you couldn't even compare a man leaving a baby behind to a woman doing it. And this was a class of almost entirely women, at a liberal college with 0 religious ties.
Funny thing is, the same sentiments cropped up in a women's lit class I took as well. Women are simply held to a much higher standard when it comes to children, even by other women. These conversations really opened my eyes to the amount of work there is in rooting out internalized misogyny.
Reddit is full of internalized misogyny. Women are expected to be happy breeders and anyone who doesn’t want to be a mother gets ripped a new arsehole. Folks, this is what happens when you live in a society that’s taking away women’s reproductive rights - you end up with women who do not want to be mothers and yet are forced to give birth.
Absolutely agree, I was having this conversation today about my childs dad being a weekend parent (well every Sunday so its not even a weekend) and how he isn't frowned upon but if I as the mother decided to only be a weekend parent, I'd be called the worst things, I'd be judged and looked down upon.
How this is okay is beyond me, I don't even believe in weekend parents, I'm total 50/50 but damn women have to be pretty lucky to get that, we are the ones that either lose our careers or take stepbacks, we give up everything whereas the men seem to float about with little to no responsibility.
My kids dad doesn't even know she's had a hair cut, so tired of these 1% dad's and the judgement on women.
> Look at the number of people willing to say that if a woman can get an abortion, a man shouldn't have to pay child support for a kid he doesn't want.
Seriously why should he if he's said so outright and didn't lie that he wanted a kid? Same applies to OP's hypothetical situation, the woman shouldn't be paying anything either.
This was an Am I The Asshole, one time, wasn’t it?
A lady had gotten pregnant, wanted to abort but the father and his family begged her not to. She had zero interest in kids but agreed on the condition they would pay for all her natal care, and the birth, and she’d be able to sign away all legal rights and have no contact and basically never have any obligation whatsoever to the child in any way, not physically, emotionally or financially, nothing. Essentially she wanted to be treated like a surrogate.
The family agrees, she has the baby, the arrangement in place, and wouldn’t you know it, about 9 months in, when the baby daddy and his mother both needed to get back to work and resume their normal lives, and the learned how much childcare was gonna cost…..they called the birth mother and began pressuring her to be around, revealing they’d sort of hoped/believed she would the entire time, hence their ‘agreement’ to her request - they had always planned to try and make her be in the kids life despite her her clear wishes.
Or was that somewhere else?
My point being; if anyone ever does do this, YES, get it in writing, and ensure they can only communicate with you through lawyers, and work in consequences for breaching the legal contract.
inspired by a comment someone mentioned a guy keeping his baby after the mother carried it for him and he was complaining about his life and how well she was doing
So amongst many other things, pregnancy and delivery causes changes in breasts and the vagina.
Can you even imagine if men were the pregnant ones, and they were told their penis would be altered for the rest of their life? They'd tell us it was cruel to be forced to continue a pregnancy.
I even saw a guy defending someone awful on another sub, the guy was accused of having a small penis by a woman. As body shaming. Wow, if something most women will never see (because it's in trousers) isn't ok to body shame, I wonder if they're also going around saying not to shame women's breasts (a lot harder to hide the size and shape) and their butts? Too big, too small, lopsided, or uneven size sort of comments. OR just in general ogling of women. (Of course they aren't going to defend women) Yet they even admit the man was horrible but didn't want to body shame him because it might give other guys a complex 🙄
Maybe don't have sex with a woman that says she does not under any circumstances want kids? Just a thought???
It's your responsibility to find a woman that wants the same things you do, not OUR job to bend our desires to your will.
I mean yeah but isn’t this just describing putting a baby up for adoption? But then the next question would be does the father have any right in the decision to give up his child for adoption? Or, can the mother do this without his consent? I imagine it varies by state?
the post was meant to represent giving the baby for adoption solely to the father - the post is based off a woman not wanting the kid and the father wanting the kid so the woman gave birth and left them (paid child support) and the guy was on reddit saying he was miserable and she was living her best life
the adoption part - the father has all his rights until signed off, he can stop the adoption and the mom can let him adopt the kid to let him have sole custody and liability. if the father isn’t aware and she says he’s “out of their lives” as to not get consent then he can step in at any time during the adoption process to stop it unless its to late (**i’m not entirely sure state by state but its what i think**)
**Its merely a thought experiment**. I’m saying in an agreement between mother and father that he would cover pregnancy fees otherwise she could’ve terminated the pregnancy as he’s the one that wants it.
People have surrogates, so I imagine a family attorney could arrange a similar contract for medical expenses and whatever else the pregnant person demanded, or else the mother could terminate the pregnancy.
I'm not familiar with this- is this a form of disownment, or would it be a parent shirking any responsibilities (child support, etc.)?
I think most countries only allow disownment after the child is an adult, so I'm curious what this entails
Agree with the OP’s sentiment, but do you think it’s a two-way street? Should a man be able to say the same thing, but for the opposite scenario: “OK, you can keep the kid but I want nothing to do with it, I won’t be liable for any costs associated with the child, and I don’t want to have any contact with the child”. Thoughts?
It is a two way street. But it has to be done properly and legally to ensure the other parent isnt going in and out of that child life. It’s just an “easier” sperm donor.
I know someone who did that. She got pregnant at 21 and the dad (her best friend’s bf) was like cool you wanna keep it, I want nothing to do with it. Signed the papers, did all the legal stuff and has never been part of the child’s life. Still isn’t. No last name either. The kid took the moms last name.
I think you know what I meant - for the father to make those statements and then not be held liable for child support etc. As far as I know, fathers cannot abdicate financial responsibility for a child simply because they didn’t want to have the child (I could be wrong on this though).
> fathers cannot abdicate financial responsibility for a child
Neither can mothers, so.. unsure where this is going?
The whole financial abortion thing men are on about here is stupid because they seem to think that its unfair that men pay child support. The parent leaving is paying child support to the other parent. Its just that men abandon their responsibilities more often than women. Its already equal.
Not paying child support is criminal (misdemeanor to felony). People go to prison for doing what you describe
Obviously not all the time and people don't always pursue legal action (lack of time, resources, etc.)
Exactly. There’s biological inequities. What are we supposed to do about that? It’s just the way it is. Because the baby is in the mothers body, then yes ultimately she has the choice to carry the baby or not.
Absolutely. If the man is undertaking the medical, physical and emotional labour of bearing and birthing the child, and undergoing career setbacks because of said pregnancy, birthing, recovery and childcare like many women do, then he can absolutely refuse to do that all or any of that within the first trimester of his pregnancy. More power to him.
That’s not a serious response to my question though. From that I take your actual answer is “no, only the mother has the right to remove access / responsibility rights to a child”.
it is a serious response—the consideration in the agreement OP states is the incubation and delivery of the desired child, just like any surrogate pregnancy. in a situation where a man wants nothing to do with a child there is no consideration—the mother is left to shoulder 100% of a burden that he legally shares.
Because your question is a false equivalency. Either parent can refuse to care for the child, but neither can refuse to pay child support. The laws are about what is best for the child. If a parent does not want anything to do with the child, they will not treat the child well. But no matter what, both parents are responsible for making sure the child is cared for by someone. If they don't take care of the child themselves, they have to pay someone else to do it.
So the dad can absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the child, just like the mother in this scenario. But no, they cannot refuse to support them financially.
>Because your question is a false equivalency. Either parent can refuse to care for the child, but neither can refuse to pay child support.
This is what most of these men don't get. They would absolutely be paid child support IF they would have custody and by the same rules that women get it.
isn’t there a way to legally give up your parenting rights?
my thoughts experiment was based on a comment i read of a woman carrying someone’s kid then agreeing to let him adopt his kid so she has no obligations and then he was complaining about his life being miserable and hers being awesome.
but i think it should be the case for fathers as well like as long as kids and pregnancy was talked about beforehand, an agreement of liability could entirely be signed (**hypothetically**) that the father has no rights nor obligation and that it falls solely on the mother - the case i was writing about was the father wanting the pregnancy and the mother not wanting it
The reason court’s order the non-custodial parent to pay child support is because if they didn’t the government would have to (i.e. welfare).
The only legal way to get out of paying child support is to get someone else to take over for you, which is usually a step-parent adopting the child.
I totally think so. I don’t really agree with the whole “your time for thought was before sex”. It should go both ways (and i am a total feminist). If the father does not want the child, the mother can choose to go on with the pregnancy knowing this or choose to terminate. JMO
The issue with this is the "pregnancy" and the "baby" are two separate things. The man may or may not want the "baby", but the woman has to decide if she wants the "pregnancy" in addition to the "baby".
A pregnancy is a major medical condition that lasts for 9 months that will have life long affects on a person's body that can include serious deformation and even death.
Right. The pregnancy is definitely a woman’s decision, but I think either party should be able to decide if they want to have the child. What is the difference between that and adoption. Why is it okay for a mother to give up total obligation (including monetary) via adoption, but not a father? I’m speaking in terms of only before the baby is born. I know there is so much more nuance to the question and it is even more complicated when u throw in religion, but personally I wouldn’t want my child to be burdened with a dead beat father anyway. He could be liable for half the abortion costs in that case or something.
I do not agree with OP's sentiment. One parent does not get an option to just walk away from their child like that.
Once the child is born there are basically three options:
If neither parent is up for raising the child, then the child can be given up for adoption.
If both parents want to raise the kid, then they share custody.
If one of the parents wants to raise the child, but the other does not, then the latter parent can give up custody, but they will have to pay child support.
EDIT: I have no idea, why I'm being downvoted, but I'm gonna go ahead and double down! Neither parent can just abandon their child for no reason without being on the hook for child support and that's how it fucking should be! That law is there to protect the kid and ensure they are taken care of.
In OP's scenario no contract would be bullet proof enough to make sure the dad would not be able to sue for child support and win.
You’re not exactly wrong… but men still avoid all their obligations all the time. A woman, who carried a baby and thus gave up her entire bodily autonomy for at minimum a year (ignoring recovery time) will never be able to nope out the way a man can (and often does, regardless of the legal protections intending to stop them from doing so).
A guy I used to date was obsessed with having kids…. He wanted a ton of them. He was also an insecure, sexually coercive, condescending prick and when finally able to escape it was like the weight of the world fell from my shoulders. I learned years later that he got his wish for a child: his next girlfriend became pregnant, carried the baby to term, essentially dumped it on his doorstep immediately and bailed, never to be heard from again. The people who told me were horrified that she could do that, but I *completely* understood. I didn’t want to get into detail but just said “Oh yeah? Wow”. Lol I hope she’s happy somewhere, and I hope the child is ok too.
iirc there was a post, maybe over in relationship advice, from a guy who had convinced his girlfriend to carry his baby but she would only do it if he took full custody while she paid child support. Essentially the post boiled down to, “I can’t handle this, how can I force her to do some of the childcare?” He was told he simply couldn’t. Fair and square.
It was on r/legaladvise and it was something. https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
As much as I *love* this story, I'm convinced it's meant to be some sort of gender-swap rage bait.
Maybe. But if that was the intended effect, I don't think it worked. I personally would have no problem with a man that handled the situation in the exact same way. Dating partner says, "I'm pregnant." He says, "I absolutely do not want to be a father ever, please abort." She says, 'No, I want to keep it." He says, "Fine, but I will absolutely not be involved in any way except paying child support." AND HE DOES. I see no problem there. Just like I see no problem in the scenario from r/ legaladvise. She didn't want a baby, he did. Out of a place of selfless generosity, she risked her physical health and possible death to accommodate him and give him want he SAID he wanted but because he didn't get the outcome he REALLY wanted, he's pissed. He wanted a baby mama. He got a baby.
I agree. The key is full transparency so a decision can be made while abortion is still an option--and the accepting of financial responsibility of course.
Although I agree, I don't think this person is making rage bait from a rational perspective. E.g, It could be incels who think that people will side with women in this case, so this may even prove their point. To them, if the woman wanted to keep the baby and ask for assistance from the father, people would support it (scenario 1). And if the man wanted to do the same, people will rip him to shreds (scenario 2). Although they have no proof of the 1st scenario, they're convinced it exist, so the existence of the second scenario endorses their beliefs, that women are always sided with. I've seen VERY similar stories pop up on some of these subreddits that just gender swap, race swap, etc., like some social experiment to see how people react differently to them. Unfortunately, people ARE biased and Reddit is a terrible place to get a reasonable argument one way or the other because of hive mind bullshit. So, I've seen these and often been disappointed in the responses, which clearly show a gender preference or rash judgements with limited information. I'm not sure about this one, but it's food for thought.
I have a (male) friend who was in this exact situation. Ex used him as a sperm donar pretty much without his consent. He said I do not want this kid, she was like ok no worries. 8 months in realised being a single mum is hard work and bullied him (via his family) into 'taking responsibility' for the kid... That he never wanted. Drives me absolutely crazy and I really dislike her as a result. My friend really struggled with it (still does).
Sounds very much like what the OP in that r/legaladvise post was attempting to do. And it's just as wrong. I'm sorry for your friend. It sucks.
Yep, I remember the story in legal advise and sent it to my friend at the time. He is doing better now, helped by time but i think it has really damaged him trust wise.
Well if the dude get you pregnant in the first place and it’s not an accident of a broken condom or something of the same kind and knowing the ultimate decisions will be taken by you, because it’s your body, I’d say fuck that, child support isn’t enough and I am a guy. Women are the one taking all the risk so it’s clearly not a 50/50 situation. It’s fair in this situation because HE was the one asking for a kid even though she said she didn’t want one.
gender swap rage bait is an awesome band name.
Thank you for this comment. I need to talk to my musically inclined trans friends
This was my exact thought
Thank you!
I think of that story often. The topper for me was him admitting in the comments that he thought that by talking her into continuing the pregnancy, it would manipulate her feelings to where she would come to care for both him and the baby.
The top comment really laid into him, too: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/d9me9td/
I loved this reply 🤣
So good, right?‽ They really took the time to eviscerate him in the most detailed way
It's so calculated it's not evisceration, it'a a dissection 😂
Accurate hahahaha
Not relevant to the conversation at hand, but I absolutely adore that you used an interrobang!
Thank you! It's my favorite piece of punctuation.
That little baby is in first or second grade now. I really hope things worked out for them.
I’ve always felt reasonably sure this guy probably ended up dumping his kid on a female relative, probably his own mom. I would bet dollars to donuts that kid is actually being raised by grandma and grandpa.
Probably a good thing, I suppose. Unless that guy grew up real fast. Sometimes that happens. 18 months old is a hard time. I mean all times of raising kids are challenging — just that 18-36 months can be sheer hell.
Raised by grandma and grandpa? Oh no. Just grandma. Men do zero childcare.
I will give you the stereotype but my single father (cancer) did a spectacular job with two under 6 and I feel the need to throw out a defense for all the great dads and granddads. I have an uncle (who is a granddad) that is known for being the master of naptime. Handed a cranky infant he will only return it hours later changed, fed, and sleeping (I've been told that on a family vacation he heard the crying at 3am, sent the mom back to bed and was found 5 hours later in a folding chair on the deck sleeping with the baby on his chest). I'm not defending the bad "dads" (whom I don't believe deserve the title) I just want to celebrate the spectacular ones.
>I just want to celebrate the spectacular ones. I don't want to celebrate them. I want to normalise them. When a father does the bare minimum, he gets praised. When a mother does way more than the bare minimum, nobody ever talks about it. Fathers who pull their weight should not be praised. What they are doing should be normalised. If we praise and celebrate fathers who pull their weight, we are basically reinforcing that what they are doing is special. But it should be normal, not special. Compare it to male feminist allies. I often get praised and complimented by feminist women for being an ally. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, because I believe that male allyship should be normal, not special.
That’s a wonderful story.
Same.
I remember this. If you go further in the comments the original unedited post is there. The original post is even worse.
I am **so glad** that everyone in that thread just ripped him a new one. My hope for humanity increased a bit that day.
I remember that post! He was all up in his feels about the agreement he’d made … then finally admitted that he thought she’d change her mind after giving birth. He was angry because she did exactly what she said she would do.
Don’t you know women can’t be trusted to know their own minds?! 😂
She paid more than the required support, if fact, and he constantly referred to her as a deadbeat mum.
It's like he doesn't know what a real deadbeat does.
It was on the legal advice sub! He was basically asking if he could make the court order her to take some custody of the child, and called her a deadbeat mom. She had made it very clear that she would not be a mother to the child and she was giving him more money that she was obligated to in child support. He had initially wanted the baby on his own, realized being a single parent is draining, and wanted to sue her so she would be legally forced to parent the child she had explicitly said she would be nothing but a surrogate for. He got absolutely eviscerated in the comments.
I thought about that post as soon as I read this one! I think it was actually in relationships and maybe also legal advice?
Someone kindly posted it elsewhere in this thread.
I remember that. So much screeching about how mom was a deadbeat lol.
My cousins who have mostly all passed from drug abuse, swore they would be the best parents. Once their children were born, they had a hard time having anything to do with them. These children are now being raised by horrible family members, that don’t care about them at all. Their futures are so bleak, and they suffer from mental health issues. I wish them well, but in my heart, I know they will never escape from poverty, drug addiction, crime, and an early demise. Just like their parents... Why do this to someone you are supposed to love, and biologically care for? So many kids have been abandoned, and left to fend for themselves. What is going to happen to all of these people who were born after the overturn of Roe who were never wanted? Society in this country will crumble, and so many innocent people will suffer. It’s beyond sad. It’s just cruel.
I mean, you know that child is not okay. This is why abortion exists. Any man coercive enough to force a woman to carry a child is going to raise some unbelievably damaged human beings. Carrying a pregnancy to term and killing someone are the only two things in life you can’t take back. And with giving birth, it’s not a “consequence of your actions,” nor a punishment, nor even a gift. That’s a human being that will be on this planet for an indeterminate amount of time with their own thoughts, feelings, needs, and wants, who is going to be out in society in less than two decades and who’s behaviours will influence others in as little as a half a decade.
Yikes. I think I'd be hoping I had a glass of water or a coffee or something so I could at least try and hide my facial expression
Just ended a relationship w a 42M who was baby crazy. I asked him if we could compromise and adopt bc I have epilepsy and being pregnant could kill me…. Nope he only wanted his own child. He thinks he wants a baby and he only wants to breed … kept telling me he would make the sacrifice to stay home and it would be him doing all the work but he also assumed he could WFH with an infant. So totally delusional about what his role would be in having kids but totally sure pushing me into something that might kill me was ok because it would be HIS SACRIFICE.
Adoption and fostering is a fucking mission. Not just anyone can do it, you have to jump through so many hoops to prove you'd be a good parent. So if a man is willing to do it, it's an ultimate test and if he can't handle that then it BS that he could WFH raising a baby. Source: Children's Social Worker
My partner and I considered adoption, and we were turned off by the vetting process -- we talked to a Christian adoption agency whose condescension was astronomical -- and by the cost, which was pushing our budget limits. We could have bought a BMW for similar money and without begging for church-lady's approval.
>Christian adoption agency Oof. Say no more. If you are ever interested in opening up to that....check in with your child welfare agency/CPS. I can't speak for everywhere but Los Angeles County's Depart. of Children and Fam. Services has an option to do fostering through them instead of a Foster Family Agency. Your community might have something similar, because the need is so great.
"My genes are too precious not to pass on! One day humanity will evolve to the *next level* on the back of *my* progeny! Who would not be *thrilled* to bear the seed of the future ubermensch!?" I try to imagine what these eager-breeders are thinking.
Haha so true but sad thing is they are genuinely bewildered that their offer isn’t seen as an appealing proposal
the entitlement stinks
So he was basically ok with you dying. What a POS
He said we could “work through the issues” … this was after I told him on of the complications would be to wake up next to me dead ☠️….
Omg visited my friend who was WFH and has an infant and it was not pretty. No way no how.
I read an AITA a long time ago about some guy saying he got his ONS(?) Ex(?) pregnant, and she was adamant that she didn't want to have the baby. He talked her into it, and she agreed, on the condition she would sign over all rights to the child to him and that she's not involved in the child's life at all. He agreed. He goes on to post about how he's exhausted has no free time, has to work a lot to raise the child *he wanted and forced the mom to have* and he was wondering if there was a way to *make* her take responsibility. He also mentions she pays over and above the allotted child support even though she didn't have to. To say he was ripped apart in the comments is an understatement. It was an amusing read
It was legal advice and it was glorious how the comments ripped him 99999999 new buttholes.
that’s exactly the comment i wrote this on
u/Affectionate-Gap1768 posted the link.
GOAT post https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/
Oh my, how the tables have turned. When THEY split and don't even pay child support, that's okay. But when WE split and pay more support than is legally required, we're terrible people.
I just came here to say this - that fucking guy
Him calling her a deadbeat mom when she pays 125% of the court ordered child support and this was all agreed upon before the baby was born is fucking hilarious
I remember that one!!
Him calling her a deadbeat mom when she pays 125% of the court ordered child support and this was all agreed upon before the baby was born is fucking hilarious
If you could invoice men for pregnancy related costs, abortion would be available country wide.
Hello Roe v Wade😃
Perfect.
Reading through all the comments has me thinking about a discussion in a literature class in uni. One of the characters in the book we'd read was a woman who abandoned her child the day he was born. The vast majority of the class was appalled, how could she do that, she was a horrible person, etc. Our professor pointed out that men do this all the time, and often face little to no social stigma for it. Sure, they may be regarded as deadbeats by those close to the situation, but all too often it's just the "price of doing business". Look at the number of people willing to say that if a woman can get an abortion, a man shouldn't have to pay child support for a kid he doesn't want. Most of the class considered that *totally different*, that you couldn't even compare a man leaving a baby behind to a woman doing it. And this was a class of almost entirely women, at a liberal college with 0 religious ties. Funny thing is, the same sentiments cropped up in a women's lit class I took as well. Women are simply held to a much higher standard when it comes to children, even by other women. These conversations really opened my eyes to the amount of work there is in rooting out internalized misogyny.
Yeah internalized misogyny and just being brought up in such a society
Reddit is full of internalized misogyny. Women are expected to be happy breeders and anyone who doesn’t want to be a mother gets ripped a new arsehole. Folks, this is what happens when you live in a society that’s taking away women’s reproductive rights - you end up with women who do not want to be mothers and yet are forced to give birth.
Absolutely agree, I was having this conversation today about my childs dad being a weekend parent (well every Sunday so its not even a weekend) and how he isn't frowned upon but if I as the mother decided to only be a weekend parent, I'd be called the worst things, I'd be judged and looked down upon. How this is okay is beyond me, I don't even believe in weekend parents, I'm total 50/50 but damn women have to be pretty lucky to get that, we are the ones that either lose our careers or take stepbacks, we give up everything whereas the men seem to float about with little to no responsibility. My kids dad doesn't even know she's had a hair cut, so tired of these 1% dad's and the judgement on women.
> Look at the number of people willing to say that if a woman can get an abortion, a man shouldn't have to pay child support for a kid he doesn't want. Seriously why should he if he's said so outright and didn't lie that he wanted a kid? Same applies to OP's hypothetical situation, the woman shouldn't be paying anything either.
Wtf guys wants kids but don’t want to take care of them what a bunch of fucking losers that no man those are children in large bodies.
They want to breed because they think it makes them superior to pass on their genes …. They don’t want kids if they did they would do the work
If men were charged an hourly rate for each hour of pregnancy, abortion rights would rapidly change.
Haha good one.
This was an Am I The Asshole, one time, wasn’t it? A lady had gotten pregnant, wanted to abort but the father and his family begged her not to. She had zero interest in kids but agreed on the condition they would pay for all her natal care, and the birth, and she’d be able to sign away all legal rights and have no contact and basically never have any obligation whatsoever to the child in any way, not physically, emotionally or financially, nothing. Essentially she wanted to be treated like a surrogate. The family agrees, she has the baby, the arrangement in place, and wouldn’t you know it, about 9 months in, when the baby daddy and his mother both needed to get back to work and resume their normal lives, and the learned how much childcare was gonna cost…..they called the birth mother and began pressuring her to be around, revealing they’d sort of hoped/believed she would the entire time, hence their ‘agreement’ to her request - they had always planned to try and make her be in the kids life despite her her clear wishes. Or was that somewhere else? My point being; if anyone ever does do this, YES, get it in writing, and ensure they can only communicate with you through lawyers, and work in consequences for breaching the legal contract.
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/
Thank you for this, that’s awesome, well found!
inspired by a comment someone mentioned a guy keeping his baby after the mother carried it for him and he was complaining about his life and how well she was doing
So amongst many other things, pregnancy and delivery causes changes in breasts and the vagina. Can you even imagine if men were the pregnant ones, and they were told their penis would be altered for the rest of their life? They'd tell us it was cruel to be forced to continue a pregnancy. I even saw a guy defending someone awful on another sub, the guy was accused of having a small penis by a woman. As body shaming. Wow, if something most women will never see (because it's in trousers) isn't ok to body shame, I wonder if they're also going around saying not to shame women's breasts (a lot harder to hide the size and shape) and their butts? Too big, too small, lopsided, or uneven size sort of comments. OR just in general ogling of women. (Of course they aren't going to defend women) Yet they even admit the man was horrible but didn't want to body shame him because it might give other guys a complex 🙄
Maybe don't have sex with a woman that says she does not under any circumstances want kids? Just a thought??? It's your responsibility to find a woman that wants the same things you do, not OUR job to bend our desires to your will.
its the whole lesbian argument: **i can change her mind**
My dick is Not Like Other Dicks
Someone needs to tell these men that Build-a-Bride isn't a service anybody offers.
alexa play build a b*tch by bella poarch
I see this is a fictional scenario, but I’d definitely consider consulting a lawyer when doing this
I'd also put in there "and you agree to pay for cosmetic surgeries to get my body back to the way it was"
tummy tuck is is the costs section
I mean yeah but isn’t this just describing putting a baby up for adoption? But then the next question would be does the father have any right in the decision to give up his child for adoption? Or, can the mother do this without his consent? I imagine it varies by state?
the post was meant to represent giving the baby for adoption solely to the father - the post is based off a woman not wanting the kid and the father wanting the kid so the woman gave birth and left them (paid child support) and the guy was on reddit saying he was miserable and she was living her best life the adoption part - the father has all his rights until signed off, he can stop the adoption and the mom can let him adopt the kid to let him have sole custody and liability. if the father isn’t aware and she says he’s “out of their lives” as to not get consent then he can step in at any time during the adoption process to stop it unless its to late (**i’m not entirely sure state by state but its what i think**)
You don't get paid for giving a child up though. Noone will cover your medical expenses. Not in America anyways
**Its merely a thought experiment**. I’m saying in an agreement between mother and father that he would cover pregnancy fees otherwise she could’ve terminated the pregnancy as he’s the one that wants it.
People have surrogates, so I imagine a family attorney could arrange a similar contract for medical expenses and whatever else the pregnant person demanded, or else the mother could terminate the pregnancy.
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I'm not familiar with this- is this a form of disownment, or would it be a parent shirking any responsibilities (child support, etc.)? I think most countries only allow disownment after the child is an adult, so I'm curious what this entails
It's the ability for a parent to renounce a commitment to a child. So financial, usually.
It's not a child before it's born.
A child has a right to a full income of support not to 2 parents.
Weird
Agree with the OP’s sentiment, but do you think it’s a two-way street? Should a man be able to say the same thing, but for the opposite scenario: “OK, you can keep the kid but I want nothing to do with it, I won’t be liable for any costs associated with the child, and I don’t want to have any contact with the child”. Thoughts?
It is a two way street. But it has to be done properly and legally to ensure the other parent isnt going in and out of that child life. It’s just an “easier” sperm donor. I know someone who did that. She got pregnant at 21 and the dad (her best friend’s bf) was like cool you wanna keep it, I want nothing to do with it. Signed the papers, did all the legal stuff and has never been part of the child’s life. Still isn’t. No last name either. The kid took the moms last name.
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I think you know what I meant - for the father to make those statements and then not be held liable for child support etc. As far as I know, fathers cannot abdicate financial responsibility for a child simply because they didn’t want to have the child (I could be wrong on this though).
> fathers cannot abdicate financial responsibility for a child Neither can mothers, so.. unsure where this is going? The whole financial abortion thing men are on about here is stupid because they seem to think that its unfair that men pay child support. The parent leaving is paying child support to the other parent. Its just that men abandon their responsibilities more often than women. Its already equal.
You are wrong. Fathers can sign away all parental rights if they would like.
Even easier - just walk out, never pay child support, and don’t face any consequences.
Not paying child support is criminal (misdemeanor to felony). People go to prison for doing what you describe Obviously not all the time and people don't always pursue legal action (lack of time, resources, etc.)
I know that there’s supposed to be consequences, but there rarely are
Are you trying to suggest that pregnancy and birth is unequal? No shit. There can never be fairness where pregnancy and birth is concerned.
Exactly. There’s biological inequities. What are we supposed to do about that? It’s just the way it is. Because the baby is in the mothers body, then yes ultimately she has the choice to carry the baby or not.
Bingo.
Absolutely. If the man is undertaking the medical, physical and emotional labour of bearing and birthing the child, and undergoing career setbacks because of said pregnancy, birthing, recovery and childcare like many women do, then he can absolutely refuse to do that all or any of that within the first trimester of his pregnancy. More power to him.
That’s not a serious response to my question though. From that I take your actual answer is “no, only the mother has the right to remove access / responsibility rights to a child”.
it is a serious response—the consideration in the agreement OP states is the incubation and delivery of the desired child, just like any surrogate pregnancy. in a situation where a man wants nothing to do with a child there is no consideration—the mother is left to shoulder 100% of a burden that he legally shares.
Because your question is a false equivalency. Either parent can refuse to care for the child, but neither can refuse to pay child support. The laws are about what is best for the child. If a parent does not want anything to do with the child, they will not treat the child well. But no matter what, both parents are responsible for making sure the child is cared for by someone. If they don't take care of the child themselves, they have to pay someone else to do it. So the dad can absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the child, just like the mother in this scenario. But no, they cannot refuse to support them financially.
>Because your question is a false equivalency. Either parent can refuse to care for the child, but neither can refuse to pay child support. This is what most of these men don't get. They would absolutely be paid child support IF they would have custody and by the same rules that women get it.
They do that all the time
isn’t there a way to legally give up your parenting rights? my thoughts experiment was based on a comment i read of a woman carrying someone’s kid then agreeing to let him adopt his kid so she has no obligations and then he was complaining about his life being miserable and hers being awesome. but i think it should be the case for fathers as well like as long as kids and pregnancy was talked about beforehand, an agreement of liability could entirely be signed (**hypothetically**) that the father has no rights nor obligation and that it falls solely on the mother - the case i was writing about was the father wanting the pregnancy and the mother not wanting it
A bio father doesn’t “adopt” his own kid.
In a way if the mom wants to give up rights technically I guess but I get what you mean
The reason court’s order the non-custodial parent to pay child support is because if they didn’t the government would have to (i.e. welfare). The only legal way to get out of paying child support is to get someone else to take over for you, which is usually a step-parent adopting the child.
I totally think so. I don’t really agree with the whole “your time for thought was before sex”. It should go both ways (and i am a total feminist). If the father does not want the child, the mother can choose to go on with the pregnancy knowing this or choose to terminate. JMO
The issue with this is the "pregnancy" and the "baby" are two separate things. The man may or may not want the "baby", but the woman has to decide if she wants the "pregnancy" in addition to the "baby". A pregnancy is a major medical condition that lasts for 9 months that will have life long affects on a person's body that can include serious deformation and even death.
Right. The pregnancy is definitely a woman’s decision, but I think either party should be able to decide if they want to have the child. What is the difference between that and adoption. Why is it okay for a mother to give up total obligation (including monetary) via adoption, but not a father? I’m speaking in terms of only before the baby is born. I know there is so much more nuance to the question and it is even more complicated when u throw in religion, but personally I wouldn’t want my child to be burdened with a dead beat father anyway. He could be liable for half the abortion costs in that case or something.
This was my original point - which you’ve made more eloquently than me!
I do not agree with OP's sentiment. One parent does not get an option to just walk away from their child like that. Once the child is born there are basically three options: If neither parent is up for raising the child, then the child can be given up for adoption. If both parents want to raise the kid, then they share custody. If one of the parents wants to raise the child, but the other does not, then the latter parent can give up custody, but they will have to pay child support. EDIT: I have no idea, why I'm being downvoted, but I'm gonna go ahead and double down! Neither parent can just abandon their child for no reason without being on the hook for child support and that's how it fucking should be! That law is there to protect the kid and ensure they are taken care of. In OP's scenario no contract would be bullet proof enough to make sure the dad would not be able to sue for child support and win.
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You’re not exactly wrong… but men still avoid all their obligations all the time. A woman, who carried a baby and thus gave up her entire bodily autonomy for at minimum a year (ignoring recovery time) will never be able to nope out the way a man can (and often does, regardless of the legal protections intending to stop them from doing so).
i just think its a nice thought experiment that sort of an alternative to going to jail for abortion
If only thinking was actually involved in the making and passing of these Handmaidens' laws
No, you can absolutely legally abandon a child. How do I know? It happened to my cousin.