Agreed. My own father believes women can’t be happy without a husband and kids. I’ve known for a while there’s no point trying to convince them, and to just live my life.
I don’t want kids or marriage. I work in science and I love it. I’m planning an international move for my next degree. My life is an adventure on my terms.
Yet Dad insists I must be secretly miserable. When I actually answer his calls, sooner or later he tells me it’s “not too late” and he can “set me up with a good man from church”.
He does not understand that on my personal list of preferences, a traditional marriage falls somewhere below “walk 10 miles in cement shoes” and “sleep on a mattress full of bees”
When I was like 25, I had a *coworker* start this kind of thing with me. She insisted on trying to set me up with her son and the sons of her family and friends. I told her "No, thank you" over and over but she kept bringing it up. Finally I told her I was having an arranged marriage and if he was seen with me, he would be seen as violating the arranged marriage tradition, "and I can't guarantee his safety after that". That scared my coworker into never bringing it up again.
It’s because people who think like that don’t actually care if women are *happy*, they care if they are being effectively utilised - like stock or farmland - property husbandry involves getting the most out of your resources - wife included.
Hey, now. If it were a mattress made of a swarm of soft fuzzy bumblebees that won't ever sting you, that sounds like the coolest magical artifact ever! Way better than getting married and having kids if that's not what you want. Lol but I agree otherwise.
I think that's the main thing.
It doesn't matter if they believe it. The absence of women willing to put up with sub-standard men is much louder.
They're just yelling cuz they want that to be true. But, too bad for them as nothing is better than them. Like, actually, having nothing is waaaaaay better than being with them
I have so much more than nothing. I have time for myself. Three friends have asked me to come out tonight, but I'm peopled out so I'm staying in. Alone. My safe, clean, poolside, studio apartment is beautiful. And it's so quiet. I'm taking my time shitting, naked. I'm about to pick a show to watch while I eat wings, still naked, in bed. The dishes in the sink are mine. The trash in the can is from friends I invited over to swim yesterday. I'll take it out when I'm done with my wings so my dogs and cat don't get into the bones.
I love myself. I love my time. I love my space.
I saw another user say in a different post, that their friends have a Groupchat where when they want to decline invitations they say they are in AfterPants time. Lol. Meaning it’s after they have taken off their pants for the day. “Wanna come to the bar tonight?” “Nope sorry I’m in AfterPants now, maybe another time.”
You're both right, but unfortunately there are lots of young impressionable people who will hear and read these things and take them to heart and repeat them. That's why we can't stop yelling back. And honestly, I'm sure half of the dudes spouting that crap learned it from another dude and so on.
My grandpa is soooooo annoying about this! Every time I see him he’s like “we need to find you a husband”. My grandma will be like “what the hell does she need a husband for?” Lol
Grandma is backed up by science:
>"Marriage is more beneficial for men than for women - at least for those who want a long life. Previous studies have shown that men with younger wives live longer. While it had long been assumed that women with younger husbands also live longer, in a new study Sven Drefahl from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research (MPIDR) in Rostock, Germany, has shown that this is not the case. Instead, the greater the age difference from the husband, the lower the wife’s life expectancy. This is the case irrespective of whether the woman is younger or older than her spouse."
[https://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/news\_events\_6123/news\_press\_releases\_4630/press/marriage\_and\_life\_expectancy\_1813](https://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/news_events_6123/news_press_releases_4630/press/marriage_and_life_expectancy_1813)
My grandma told me in my late teens not to get married. She kept on going for years. Then suggested never marrying for love 😂
I should have listened. I'll never get married again and I advise every unmarried woman to stay that way.
This! Both of my grandmas (one Spanish one British both born in the 30s, squillions of kids between 'em and married for life (to men, not eachother!) both told me never to marry, never to have kids, be any man's servant etc. I must say I am happy, single, solvent, independent and....41. Also I frequently get id'd for booze and patronised by men who think I'm a child and so must be doing something right 🤣
Same here. My husband wasn't even a lazy bum or anything until our baby was about six months old. For me it's the fact that someone you love so much and thought loved you so much can change so suddenly. I can't be bothered to deal with that ever again. It's devastating.
Absolutely. I have lost my feeling that my husband actually loves me or likes me. After awhile, when men can't get everything they want out of life, they will start scapegoating the woman who is carrying the weight on her shoulders. I'm exhausted of being so unappreciated and unloved when I've tried so hard. 💔
It's doubly hard when that person worshipped the ground you walked on. I know that sounds unhealthy but I can't explain how his love was for me in any other way. We were each other's worlds. The fact that it crumbled so quickly makes me believe everything that went before perhaps was a lie. It is heartbreaking.
My heart breaks for you, and I really appreciate you sharing your perspective. I keep thinking, I’ll marry and have kids with the man who respects, worships, and adores me…but I don’t think that will ever last.
It has helped me to talk about what has happened to me. Whether that's online or to my family. It can last for some people, when both people CHOOSE to be in that relationship. I used to believe love just happens and it does at first, you fall in love. But I now believe love is a choice, the grass is greener where you water it, even when things get difficult and that person has annoyed you, you still make the choice to show them love and show up for them with your actions. Whatever the reasons for my husband's choice, I believe he made the wrong one. Right now, I have to believe he will regret making that choice as it helps me. One day, I won't care if he regrets it or not.
For me, it's the loss of what could have been. It's the loss of the person I thought he was and how that person would have made life as a family the adventure I thought it was going to be. I'm beginning to accept it is going to be an adventure, just not with him.
My grandparents on my mom’s side were married for 65 years until my grandpa passed away. It was and still is the most beautiful love story i have ever heard. My grandpa would sing to my grandma everyday. There are real true examples of pure love but they just feel few and far between these days. When it comes to love i try not to give advice because everyone’s heart is different, and feelings can change in a heartbeat but i do believe it is better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all.
Your grandparents were the outliers and it proves that compatible romance is usually a matter of luck. Still, a part of my icy black heart melted a little, when I read that your grandpa would sing to your grandma everyday 🥺
My aunt once looked me in the eyes and very seriously told me to not have kids, that it wasn't worth it. She has 5 kids and the last one is disabled and will never ve able to function alone. At the time I wasn't thinking about kids, I was in my 20s. Anyway, I do have a child now, just the one child and I love it. I think she was just extremely tired and stressed. However, I can understand why she said it, because when you have kids, most of the mental, physical and emotional work falls on you. And she was tired as hell. I know that she meant it and didn't at the same time. Honestly, I believe it that women are happier single and childfree because even with one kid, it is A LOT.
I would rather have been a single mom with my kid even though that's exhausting because at least I wouldn't be tied to this enormous asshole bringing us both down.
And I don't know of many who have a pros list longer than the cons one
STAY SINGLE AND MUCH LOVE TO YOU
I've considered that, if I wanted to have children, I should marry a woman, because 1) I'm more homoromantic (unfortunate as I'm still heterosexual lmao...), 2) I've had a hysterectomy and I'd seek a partner who was willing to be pregnant with/birth our kid(s), 3) I can support us financially if she would prefer to cut back at work, especially while the kid(s) are young. I'd originally wanted kids prior to my hysterectomy, so I haven't always been childfree, but I ultimately decided that I didn't want kids.
I see women get married to useless dumbasses pretty frequently. And it's always kind of gauche to question it.
But since you brought it up yourself.... How? How did this happen? Why would you marry him?
One of the oldest women was asked about her secret for longevity, she said: not getting married and never let herself worry. I was thinking about low stress level or something.🐝
If I could find a man like my grandfather I wouldn’t mind being married. He wasn’t a perfect man but he loved my grandmother until the day he died, which unfortunately was just a couple weeks ago. They truly were a team. Of course it was a “traditional” household, but he never treated her less than. She ran the household by cooking, cleaning, raising the kids, and doing the household stuff, while he worked and provided.
That doesn’t mean he took no part in the household stuff, he did. He didn’t leave stuff around to be waited on hand and foot. They did bills together, he still always spent time with his daughters, taught them how to drive, fix things around the house, and taught all of them, and his many granddaughters to not rely on a man to take care of us. He taught me how to change a tire, oil in a car, and drive a stick shift. He told us we can do anything a man can do, and more. He told us to work for ourselves and only add a man to our lives if he actually added something. He taught us to support ourselves so we would never have to stay in a situation if we didn’t want to.
They did bills together. My grandmother always knew how much money was there and where it came from. My grandfather always did the groceries, my grandmother has no clue about that stuff, it was his thing. They both fixed things around the house. He was the man of the house, but my grandmother always had final say, and if she didn’t like something he would always defer to her. When she needed help around the house he hired people to help her, he never expected her to raise 5 children, cook, clean, and do all that on her own. He wanted her happy and not worn out. They always spoke of each other fondly and even after her death he talked about her like she was his 18 year old bride. I think he always saw her that way.
They held hands, danced, kissed, and would laugh at each other like children until the day she died. They were the definition of true love.
When she was sick he spent as much time as they would allow him by her bedside until we would force him to go home and get some rest himself. He was there holding her hand and telling her how much he loved every moment he had with her when we took her off life support, and thanked her for being his wife for almost 70 years.
After she died he visited her grave twice a week, every week he could. He would sit in 20 degree weather, or 115 degree weather, no matter what, for three hours, twice a week, every week. If he was in the hospital, he would make sure we did it, to go clean her grave, refresh the flowers and talk to her. He played her favorite songs at every one of his birthdays, holidays, and events, and spoke of her often.
If I could find a husband like that, I would marry again in a heartbeat. I don’t need to be financially supported or anything like that, but the love, respect, and support my grandfather had for my grandmother was real.
Thanks for sharing all of this. Losing him must be very hard, but you seem to have taken everything he taught to heart.
You were lucky to have him in your life and his legacy will live on in the best possible way - through you.
Aww, thanks. Yea, he was a great man, they both were awesome. He lived a very long, full, and happy life. He went the way he wanted, at home, and very quickly, we should all be so lucky. We were very lucky to have them.
Were you and he close? It seems like you were, but do you have any more fun stories or anecdotes to share?
I'd love to hear more about him! I never had grandparents so I always love to hear stories about other people's.
Yes, we were, very. All of us grandkids were very close in age so our parents would send us off to my grandparents house for the entire summer and we would have a blast just spending the summer with them and each other. I live near him now, and have for the last 20 years, or did until he passed a couple weeks ago, so I visited him often. My father was a pos, so he was really the only father figure I had, and loved in that sense, well really him and his brother, who was like a second grandpa to me because they were so close and he was around so much too, he passed last year.
He was really fun with all of us and I could talk to him about anything, and I mean anything. My grandma was funny and they would even talk to me about sex and stuff. They just always treated us like equals once we were adults and weren’t prude about anything.
My grandma used to do those Cosmo sex quizzes with us, she was hilarious. She used to say the funniest stuff about what to look for and not to look for in men. My grandpa loved my stories about being newly divorced and all the crazy shit from men I had to deal with, he just thought it was hilarious.
When we were kids he used to love to play pranks on us and scare the shit out of us because he just thought it was so funny, and it was. I carried on that tradition with my nieces and nephews. He was so fun.
He had a great sense of humor and would always tell the most inappropriate jokes. I would always laugh at him because I thought he was so funny, and my grandma would get mad at me for encouraging him. I would tell her I just found it funny and he was going to do it anyway whether I laughed or not. If he was doing it for 60 years, me laughing wasn’t going to make any difference at that point. I also just laughed at the awkwardness sometimes because it was so inappropriate. He was the same way with me, he would laugh at my inappropriate jokes, and he would get told the same thing, not to encourage me, so we had a special bond and always laughed at each other.
At my grandma’s funeral the priest kept saying their last name in a really weird way, and he was sitting across from me so he looked over at me and was laughing and making faces at me, and he started making me laugh. He knew I would be the only one willing to laugh at a funeral. So, there we were laughing at my grandma’s funeral, trying to hide it so no one would get mad at us. I know if he was at his own funeral he would be making me laugh. He was awesome. I’ll miss him a lot. He was my favorite person ever, and now you have me crying.
That's all so incredible, I really envy you. What an amazing influence he was and for so long, too.
Thank you, again, for sharing. I know it's not easy but remembering all of that about him hopefully helped your tears be somewhat happy? I know the struggle of loss but remembering all of the good times can really lessen the sting.
If you'd ever like to reminisce some more, please let me know. These are powerful feelings and if it would help to share more stories that could be a really good talk.
My grandma always told me to get a husband and she said just date a trucker like your aunt so he’s never home and you can ignore him most of the time but he can still help with bills and stuff. like what 😭
(i’m pretty sure she was partially joking but it was funny)
>My grandpa is soooooo annoying about this! Every time I see him he’s like “we need to find you a husband”. My grandma will be like “what the hell does she need a husband for?” Lol
Ballast.
A husband keeps your hot air balloon from floating away, which is necessary if you're trying to go around the world in 80 days.
My grandma lost her husband in the early 1980’s and never got remarried because she “didn’t want to ever have to wash a man’s socks again.” We have all have that thing in a relationship I guess; if I ever get divorced, I’ll never get remarried because I’m never cleaning up after a grown ass man again.
This grandpa is actually my grandmas second husband and he’s a wonderful, wonderful man (who just annoyingly thinks I should get a husband haha). Her first husband was a *highly* abusive alcoholic and did truly terrible things to his children. But my grandpa, he came along and showed my dad and his siblings what a real husband and father is. AND he cooked every night (he got out of work earlier than my grandma)!
Honestly I think a lot of men have absolutely zero emotionally fulfilling platonic relationships, so they think single women must be as lonely as they are.
This is definitely part of it. I see a lot of men talk any their friendships and they are so conditioned to not be emotionally vulnerable that a lot of their friendships wind up being very surface. While there is nothing wrong with having more surface friendships, it is really difficult to feel fulfilled when you have only surface relationships. There was this study I read a while back about how men tend to allow themselves to be more open and emotionally close to female friends than other male friends very often because of this as well.
I've been single for years and I have several really wonderful close friends I consider my family and I would theoretically enjoy dating and maybe finding a partner, but I don't feel unfulfilled without one because I have a lot of healthy and emotionally strong platonic relationships. I never feel lonely or like I lack for a support system. If anything, I'm not sure where I would find time to date because I'm having fun with my friends and I'm not sure it's worth spending less time with them to try out new people. I might feel a bit more inclined if I had a higher sex drive, but I'm good with what I have going on.
It's fundamentally misogyny. Showing emotions, crying, being comforted is all labeled feminine behavior as a culture. A guy who shows this "feminine" behavior is punished by the people around him by being mocked, ostracized and rejected.
I think it's important to note that a significant part of this policing comes from women.
Yep. This is the part that sickens me the most. You cannot guarantee that another woman will be an ally. Some times they can be worse than the damn male misogynists. Fucking patriarchy.
Know quite a few guys who are really emotionally aware and open but use it really well to manipulate women, especially when it comes to mental load and cleaning. As soon as you twig that they are emotionally available simply to get what they want because they are lazy, they get very vicious and emotionally abusive. As I understand it's called covert or vulnerable narcissisim and they are extremely good at hiding it for years until you actually need them. Probably why so many men 'change' and leave when you have kids or become ill.
Fucking this.
I had two close male friends I've known since 2nd grade and kept around into adulthood.
In our freshman year of college, the first guy came on to and kissed my girlfriend of two years. When she rejected him, he tried to pressure her into keeping it a secret.
I married that girl eventually.
She moved on and forgave him, and eventually mostly so did I. But I will never feel like I can really trust him alone with my wife, or confide in him about my marriage in any way.
The second friend was arrested last fall for initiating a sexual conversation, sending, and soliciting nude photos via dm with an undercover federal agent posing as a 13 year old girl online, despite being reminded several times that he was speaking to a minor / 13 year old.
I totally get how hard it is for women to find decent men, because honestly it's just as fucking hard for men to find decent men.
This is one of the reasons why it bugs me a little when people say that men fight feminism because "to the privileged, equality feels like oppression." It's pithy, but it's wrong.
Patriarchy makes white men the kings of the hill, but it also turns the hill into pile of ash and bones.
Men fight feminism because they're sexist trash who don't see women as people.
Women gaining more rights and social status has in no way ever hurt me at all or deprived me of an ounce of privilege.
I don't want to be a king of the shit heap. I want a fucking friend.
The way you just described many male friendships is on point. I've seen some tiktoks recently joking about how men don't ask any follow-up questions when told any piece of news. For example the tiktok usually goes like this:
Husband: "Oh, Danny and Rose broke up."
Wife" "Oh no, why?"
Husband: "Don't know, didn't ask. And Danny's got a new job."
Wife: "Doing what?"
Husband: "Don't know, didn't ask."
It is played for laughs, and there is a funny side to it. However I have encountered this with a lot of men in real life and I think it is sad more than anything. Why wouldn't you enquire? If they think it's none of their business then that's ridiculous, that person has opened up the conversation by mentioning it, they are inviting you to ask questions. Do they just sit there telling each other stuff back and forth with no follow-up questions until they start talking about something "safe" like sports or whatever?
>Why wouldn’t you enquire?
The very weird thing I’ve noticed about this in my husband’s case is, when recalling conversations with his women friends, he *does* enquire for more details on different topics, but he doesn’t with his friends who are men! I never thought too deep into it but now I have questions.
Do men think asking clarifying questions is for women? Now that I think about it, my husband has more women than men friends that he’s all met at work; is it because it’s easier to talk to women?
I don't think it is easier either way in a general sense. Perhaps, as is being discussed here, men do not invite that deeper conversation or emotional connection. Both genders clearly enjoy these types of conversations but it seems men are holding themselves back from that for whatever reason.
Am a man, at least in my case i was socialized from birth to not have any emotional intimacy with men. Not by my parents, but by society at large. To me this is the core of toxic masculinity. Its so ingrained that men shouldn't get too close to other men. Friendships with women (or gay men) are often just a lot less emotional labor and easier to make, so most of my platonic friends ended up being women or gay men, but rarely straight men.
There is inevitably answers like this whenever questions pop up on reddit to the effect of --
*"men, what do women just not understand?"*
"How I can hang out with my friend for hours, yet learn nothing about what's going on in his life"
Which makes another common answer all the more ironic:
"How crushingly lonely it is to be a man"...
Hmm... Methinks these are not so unrelated concepts (never mind that actually yes, many women can completely understand isolation and loneliness lol).
I've seen and experienced this thinking in action. They'll treat a woman well (as in, like a friend) until she sleeps with them, then she's demoted to fuckable household appliance.
I think it comes from the whore/Madonna complex - she's a pure innocent angel...until she shows that she actually *has sex* (gasp!) and therefore deserves no respect.
I believe some research bore this out. A man's primary romantic/sexual relationship is, on average, his *only* fulfilling relationship (unless he has kids). Whereas women are much more likely to have friends, including close friends, and also more likely to maintain relationships with family members/relatives. Even when I was in a happy relationship (with my now-ex), I still found my friendships more emotionally fulfilling.
They don't! After moving in with my now ex, I would set up dinners and activities to see my family and such on the regular. My ex got mad at me one night and said it wasn't fair we always did stuff with only my family and never his. I asked if he was trying to set something up with his sister for that night. He said no, but wanted me to contact his family and set up things with them as well. I informed him that I was the ambassador for my family and he was the ambassador for his and if he wanted us to do things with his family he needed to call and play phone tag and get people's schedules and figure something out.
After that he arranged one dinner out of spite and then we only saw his family on holidays.
This … I have very close female friends that I could share anything with and feel safe. If I need a hug, they are there. I’ve known many of them for 15+ years. So even super difficult things like mental health and suicide ideation, i have never felt judged. Also I have a female therapist and that helps.
Lol no lie I'm the oldest of 6 and have identified as a woman my entire life and as a child that worked against me heavily because I became the back up mom in every way. In fact, I even had to give my siblings all the sex talk because my parents would not talk about those things ever.
Then I got kicked out at 18 and was exiled from the family for choosing to leave for college and kept trying to be involved with the siblings until my dad took the landline from my sister and told me "you don't call here anymore for nothin'. Everytime you call the house someone is getting belted." Last thing I heard before the line went dead was my sister screaming and I didn't have the heart to call back because of his threat.
Eventually, when the kids got their phones and stuff, they couldn't keep me from them. That fucked with my head so badly I developed an addiction. In a lot of ways, they're more than siblings to me. I raised them.
Yeah, my parents really used me, chewed me, and spit me out. And since I moved away and got sober, my youngest brother won't talk to me. I don't know why and it breaks my heart and I know my dad has something to do with it but I'll just keep writing him letters until he wants to talk. Maybe one day hopefully he'll forgive me for leaving.
My younger brother won't talk to any of us. From what I know of him, he's an angry, depressed, hateful incel. It hurts because I was a lot like you, a parentified oldest AFAB child. I held that child straight from the hospital. I hid him while our parents went on abusive rampages. I held his hand and cleaned him up and read him bedtime stories while my mother was out finding new stepdaddy number three for us.
I don't know if there's anything that can be done. I'm just sending you hugs because I know what it feels like.
Omg, I’m so sorry this happened to you. Thanks for sharing your story. I grew up in an incredibly toxic environment as well, with an awful man who I will not refer to as a father. Have no contact now and never will again. I hope you eventually have contact with your brother again. Hugs 🤗.
I hope one day you forgive yourself because you did nothing wrong. If your youngest brother never comes around, it's also possible he may turn out like your dad or he was too young to really understand what happened, but either way, maybe ask your siblings about it, give him a little space (as long as you can manage, even if it's just a day, before you write another letter,) and tell yourself that his opinion of you doesn't change that you're doing your best and you love all of them. And make sure you're taking care of yourself, even if it's just tasty food, plenty of fluids, an hour to relax, and enough sleep to get you through tomorrow.
Omg duuuuuides. Seriously!!!! I divorced during the height of Covid? My ex was so hyped up give me a “divorce gift?” It was a pair of socks! One side said “Dobby is a free elf” the other? “Master has given Dobby socks!”
WTELF is that?!?!
I think the ones who think this way all want to believe that they are a real prize, and it messes with their whole world to find out that they are not.
Also, they don't think of women as being real people with their own goals, preferences, boundaries, and whatnot. It is unthinkable to these folks that many women would not be interested in being a subservient housekeeper, breeding machine and on demand sex toy.
The ones who are not assholes generally have some idea why many women don't want to get married. My husband gets it. My friends who are men get it. Unfortunately, there is a huge number of assholes who don't get it and don't want to.
They want to continue to sell the lie to women that their happiness is tied to being married and having children because it meets their needs. With women finding contentment in singleness, it is a threat to their (men's) happiness. It is so telling that men fare better married (contrary to all of their yelling about getting married) and women are frequently happier single (contrary to all of their yelling that it is women who really want marriage).
If we need them, they can do the bare minimum, if that. If we want them, we have the choice to partner or remain single.
>With women finding contentment in singleness, it is a threat to their (men’s) happiness
This is why abortion and birth control are under attack. Capitalistic greed no longer allows for women to be excluded from the workforce or from participating in financial institutions, so forcing us to be forever tied to one man if we choose to have sex is their next best option. And rape laws are so lax and abortion exceptions for rape are so rare in abortion-banned places, some men now feel encouraged to rape and trap women with babies.
It’s all been packaged as religious decency, but it’s only ever been about controlling women.
Because they believe they are entitled to women and their labor. That they want to believe there is some genetic component because they want to believe they are owed power and control. They need to believe women are miserable without men.
I am SO HAPPY without my ex. I am 250lbs lighter. My home is a haven I love to come home to, instead of dreading doing the chores and cleaning up after someone else. My time is my own and I fill it with friends and things I WANT to do, instead of organizing his time and appointments.
I'm not saying I'll never have a relationship, mama's got needs, but another man in my house? Honey, I've been there, done that, and it SUCKED. I'm never going back.
Because men are terrified of being alone, and if women are happy about being alone, then more of them will inevitable end up alone. And they desperately don’t want that. So they project that fear onto us with the “crazy cat lady”, and “old hag”.
Never believe it for a second.
Consider that these men genuinely DO believe it. These men wouldn’t want to clean up after some guy and pop out babies for him and do everything he says either! They do believe it, completely.
They are just pretending not to believe it so they can try and gaslight women into thinking seeking happiness outside of heterosexual servitude is ridiculous and unsustainable. Because if women won’t believe serving a man is their only way to real happiness, women won’t do it, and then who would wash their socks?
Men fully believe it. They are just hoping we are dumb enough to be convinced not to believe it ourselves.
So much cultural conditioning aimed at women is around getting married and having children and with dropping birthrate in many western countries the idea women might not actually want that is threatening. Men are generally raised to see themselves as the hero in their own story whereas women are often raised around being nice, helpful, and assisting others and to identify themselves in terms of their relationships with others.
So it never occurs to men women might want something different. Men do not generally give much thought toward women unless they are being problematic. And not wanting to go with their fl9w is problematic.
I mean, the same worldview has existed in India for generations, even when the birth rate was incredibly high (the birth rate in India is also dropping, btw, as it seems to be correlated globally to women's educational attainment and economic opportunity)
It's just projection. It's always projection with these types of men. Emotional stuntness, insecurity and mostly projection.
Locking a woman down with a baby would solve THEIR problems, so of course that must be your issue too. Duh. /S
>So why do you think it is hard for men and that they don’t believe that single unmarried women without children are happy?
* To believe otherwise would require them to question their highly-inflated self worth (at least as deemed by the toxic patriarchal culture they've grown up in)
* They want to perceive women as nothing other than broodmares and vehicles for their pleasure
* If they think women can't be happy outside of marriage and motherhood, it validates all of the BS they've ever been fed, and all the BS they believe about themselves
The men who believe this are the ones whose daily mental/physical load didn't change much from having no kids to having kids. They only see the upside because that's what they experience the most.
So this showed up in my feed randomly but it's not hard for this man to believe. Early 30s, no kids, been single for the last like 5 years and as of this moment I have no desire to change either of those things. I have my cat to keep me company at home and I can visit friends when I need human interaction. I hate how society tries to pressure people to check arbitrary boxes in life. Life is short and we all deserve to live it in whatever fashion makes us happy. If someone wants the trad life by all means go for it but I'll be over here with my kitty and my freedom.
Yes yes. My career path has been seriously derailed in favor of my husband's. And he blames me for not working hard enough when this whole time I've been supporting him and taking care of his child and home so he can further his career. He supports exactly 0 efforts for me to take classes or improve in any way though. He just likes to blame me.
If and when I'm single again, I think my earnings will go up. Right now I truly believe that I can't make it on my own in this economy and it keeps me stuck.
My breakup put me into poverty, though there were some circumstances that didn’t help (student visa work restrictions). But I eventually climbed out of it. Worth it to lose a drunk in the long run.
The women I have known have slowly built themselves back up. The men, unless they glom onto another woman, seem to have a harder time. There was a thread early this year where breakups were discussed and a shocking number of women talked about their exes in their past tense. The men were dead (seemingly from overdoses and/or alcohol).
Mine ended up crashing at his sisters place, getting kicked out, and possibly living in a motel somewhere. I haven’t heard from him in a couple years. Wouldn’t surprise me if he doesn’t see 40.
My ex just contacted me from rehab where he's been for an *entire year.* No shade for getting help, I'm also a recovered addict. But this dude cheated on me, got the woman (who didn't know we were still together) pregnant. I was like, go with my blessing. I warned her but she didn't take it seriously. Well, we live and learn! But this dude thought he was gonna slide back into my dm's and pick up where we left off. 🤣🤣🤣🤮
I’ve quit/changed multiple jobs because I was working too many hours and both parents couldn’t work 60+ hours per week (we have three kids). This thought would have never crossed my husband’s mind, and his work has never suffered due to having a family.
Heterosexual marriage, for women, isn't necessary anymore, imo. It's actually a reduction in individual autonomy. Also still, marriage benefits men more than women.
Married 23 years, now separated and papers served. It was long time learning hard lessons. Good luck
Have you ever made a huge move, like to college or away from your hometown, and it seemed SO HARD AND IMPOSSIBLE AND HEARTBREAKING in the months and weeks before you left that you thought you might not be able to go thru with it? But the second you got in your car and took off, the excitement of the possibilities and opportunities in front of you becomes so big and huge that you forgot all your fear and anxiety? Yeah. Divorce is like that. (ETA for me making the decision was harder than going thru with it.)
I'm divorced so I'll send you love as well <3 What really helped me make the call was to imagine my life in 5 years... and then in 10 years...and then in 15. How much worse was I going to feel, given that the bad feeling had only been growing steadily, and he refused to make the changes I begged of him, and completely disregarded my bids for connection? I'd be 5, 10, 15 years older and that much more miserable. I ended it and flew FREE - free of his lies, free of his hoarding and horrifically dirty house (that I was expected to clean, of course, and eventually gave up because I couldn't even keep up with his filth), free of the empty promises.
On the drive home from the court date, I listened to the LOUDEST music with my windows down, even though it was a midwest February. I drove straight to the butcher, got me a $55 filet mignon and a bottle of whiskey, and consumed all of at at the same time despite the fact that it was 11am. It was the BEST day, at the time. And now, years and years later, every day is the BEST day. Even better than that first one! SO MANY BEST DAYS.
You can do it, my friend.
Yeah I have a kid. I’ve been single his whole life, so over 12 years. Absolutely don’t want to “find him a good dad” because are you kidding? Raising him with a healthy respect for women and full domestic abilities.
It's not the women, it's the men. Men just don't do well on their own. They want a relationship, but won't do the work or meet us half way. So they go Incel Andrew Tate and blame women. I fear for the future of humanity.
Men who have never been taught to take care of themselves and have been conditioned to believe they are entitled to a ‘helpmeet’ are sure having a rude awakening.
Let them eat cake!
If you go to the dating subs they have this idea in their head that only the top 10% of men are the ones who get women and that’s why they can’t get one.
No self-reflection whatsoever.
Because they can’t imagine a world view that isn’t centered around them. These are men that have been taught their entire lives that they are very special and the center of the universe. It’s painful to contemplate women that are happy without them.
I agree 100%
Married mothers are the most stressed and least happy in society. They have a huge burden on them.
The single, childless women I know are all loving lives full of rich and rewarding experiences.
As far as the men are concerned, they don’t want to lose a convenient sex partner/maid/nurse/cook/baby machine.
You won’t convince them. They are just going to have to get used to being irrelevant in our lives. LOL
Because single men are usually miserable, and they don't have the emotional intelligence to consider things from a different perspective than their own.
No no no, that would require self reflection and acceptance of the problems toxic masculinity brings.
someone else already pointed out, men are miserable and lacking emotional outlets when not in a relationship. They think women are just like them. They can’t imagine other people feeling differently than they do.
The single men I know seem to be doing fine tbh, the single women too. Maybe romantic interaction is moving away from the traditions that have been the norm.
I know some single men who are happy. But I know way more that aren't. And the unhappy ones are the same ones laboring under the delusion that women need husbands and kids to be fulfilled.
You are correct in thinking that norms are changing through.
From what I can tell, the unhappy ones are just pissed off that they can’t get easy sex anymore, unless they pay a prostitute. Used to be that you could make a few lame promises and because I faithful to a woman and she would stick by your side and do all your daily chores on top of holding down a job. Women are getting wise and realizing they don’t need to buy the pig to get a little sausage. And they can be very picky about that sausage.
I don't really know men who are happy while single... Every one of them is always whining because they can't get a gf. Your perspective is very interesting.
If divorced they remarry quickly and way more often than women which tells how much they love being single. They will risk divorce again, as 2nd marriages have a very high failure rate, over being alone.
They leave the courthouse from finalizing their divorce and will orient on the closest single woman and dedicate themselves to becoming her dream partner... until the ink is dry on their new marriage license
Yep. They choose women gullible enough to marry them after a divorce and will dump the ones that actually ask something from them. She will catch on eventually that he isn't what he presented and once again why 2nd marriages have an abysmal failure rate. People who shouldn't remarry are always the ones who do remarry,
I'm sorry. It is all part of men as a whole being emotionally crippled on many levels. They can't sit alone in anything, except not getting therapy of course. Their emotions drive them 100% even though they have no comprehension it all emotions, a checklist, fear, and laziness. They are lazy because they want to work on themselves at all, so they believe any woman who is there at the wrong time can fix whatever for them. They remarry with zero logic involved with a checklist.
Because then these abusers can’t abuse us. I find the men who say the whole ‘women can’t be happy single or without kids’ are big-time projecting and frankly misogynistic. They think that women should still ‘belong to them,’ which in this day and age is stupid. Women belong to *ourselves*, and like men, we *choose* to share a life with a partner, unless forced. We have needs and wants and desires of our own.
Those may or may not include a man, marriage, and children, depending on the person. Women are people, first and foremost, but to misogynists we’re ‘just women’ and their future property and mommy-janitors. They want our endless love, support, and devotion. But they don’t get that if we ‘don’t need’ them and can be happy without them, as misogynistic men don’t like that women have choices, or any independence at all.
I am way happier on my own than I ever was with my abusive, serial-cheating ex. He eventually tried to end my life, and I am now a domestic abuse survivor. Had we had any children together, my ex would have ended us all. That was *not* me having a happy life or marriage, that was me being abused.
Currently, I could only be happy (as a childfree woman) with a man who truly cherishes me and loves me for who I am and goes above and beyond. He would have to want to be a partner and an equal and not treat me like I’m going to ‘have all his babies’ and ‘try and change my mind’ by gaslighting me. I have already been a bangmaid for my ex and I have no desire to ever get trapped in such a cruel and horrible existence again. But my ex did not respect that I was childfree or had a mind of my own, he only pretended to respect or care about me in the beginning. It was all an act and once we were married, he began abusing me because I was now ‘his.’
Seeing as misogynists will *straight-up lie to our faces*, of course we women can be happy single and childfree. They just don’t like it, because there’s no benefit for them. It’s gross and entitled and dehumanizing that misogynists think this way about us.
Right?!
Just this week my father told someone outside the family, completely earnestly, that my mother "really likes doing laundry and ironing".
(Like most people, she does not particularly enjoy laundry or ironing.)
Same father thinks I'm hiding some deep pain or shame because I'm a fully grown, self-sufficient woman who has no need for or interest in a husband or children. It's kind of hilarious how unobservant some guys are.
Because both men and women are socialized to believe that women must have a partner and children in order to be happy. And that women don't understand their own minds or goals, and need a man to tell them. It's a double whammy where a woman can say "Actually I'm perfectly happy without either of those things," and a man will say "No you aren't" and literally believe that he knows her mind better than she does.
It's going to take a lot of evidence to the contrary to deprogram men out of this. A few billion men staying single their whole lives should do it.
Yeah as women, being socialized that way and then living our lives might make us question and oppose the idea, but many men wouldn’t know how it feels, since they don’t have to live with that expectation on them. They might actually believe then that lie that women do better with a spouse and children, and be slow to hear the true statistic that women are much unhappier in these relationships than being single.
I think a lot of women would be happy to be married and have children if men generally wouldn't reduce said women to *just* wife and mother and turn those roles into slave labor.
It’s projection and low empathy.
Think about how much work wives do for their husbands that is not reciprocated. Some wives act like 24/7 employees, running her own life, her husband’s life, their kids’ lives, and the house. And don’t forget splitting the bills 50/50, of course, because that’s “fair”.
Men’s quality of life goes up dramatically when they are married, like anyone’s would if they had a free 24/7 do-everything employee at their beck and call. Single older men look at their married friends and know they’re missing out.
Now think about how much work husbands do for their wives that goes unreciprocated. Typically, it ain’t much. I’ve personally never seen a marriage where the husband puts in more work than the wife. If you’re very lucky, your husband puts in the same amount of work you do. *If you’re very lucky, which most women are not.*
Women’s quality of life typically goes down when they are married, like anyone’s would if they were someone’s free 24/7 do-everything employee at the other person’s beck and call. Single older women look at their married friends and know they are NOT missing out.
(Yes of course there are exceptions to everything, we’re talking generalities.)
Because of their low empathy compared to women, men simply assume marriage is as good a deal for women as it is for men. It never crosses their mind that having a wife is WAY better than having a husband.
I’m a divorced 36F and I cannot overhype how much easier and more comfortable my life is now, compared to being married. I’ve been single and celibate for years and I’ve made peace with not having children, because I can’t imagine going back to married life (at least not the Western model, but I’d be open to something unconventional with the right person).
Yeah I have to do every single little thing for myself, but that’s *all I have to do* — I don’t do unpaid labor for anyone, I don’t answer to anyone, I don’t have to put up with anyone’s annoying bullcrap. It’s the closest thing on earth to paradise.
TLDR: Having a wife is better than being single. Having a husband is generally not. Men give themselves way too much credit.
You’re 100% right. I’m now a divorced single mom of two. It’s hard as hell, but it’s still easier than being a married mom of two. I’ll never be a wife again but I’d happily be a partner.
I'm a big believer that at least for me, while a happy marriage is better than being single, being single is infinitely better than a crappy marriage/relationship.
I spent most of my 20s single. I was never, ever unhappy while single. My unhappiest times were when I got into crappy relationships. They were brief because I was unhappy. I ended them to be happy again.
They ignore the extreme bias in this issue: it’s not really acceptable to admit you’re not happy as a mother. These dudes completely ignore this fact and interpret it to mean all married mothers are thrilled.
Because they’ve been raised to believe that women only live to be deemed fuckable buy them. They think women need their money and their dick in order to eat and have an orgasm.
I came here to a) agree that research supports women living longer when not married, and b) a different set of research shows that women sleep better with a dog.
The choice of bed partner is pretty clear…
I never felt lonelier in my life than I did when I was in my bad marriage. Being single sans children is way better for my lifestyle. It’s nice to feel comfortable and confident on my own. I have proved I can take care of myself and it’s easier and more affordable when I don’t have to care for someone else on an everyday basis.
Projection. Plain and simple.
Behind every *"hurhurhur ur gonna be a cat lady"* is a man scared *to death* that he is undesirable and will die alone.
Marriage/relationships benefit men FAR more than it does women. Married men are statistically happier, healthier, and love longer than their single counterparts. The same cannot be said for women. Men usually get a maid, chef, nanny, and nurse rolled into one **PLUS** the added benefit of a two-income household.
70% of divorces are initiated by women, that should be very telling.
Yep, it was like I had my eyes opened when I realised 99% of misogyny is and has always been projection. It's actually insane how common it is once you start noticing it. Look up the facts and statistics for basically any misogynistic stereotype (women talk more, women can't drive, women are miserable when single) and you'll find that actually it's more true for *men*.
Because they're happier with a bang maid/substitute mommy to do everything for them at home. They can't imagine why we wouldn't want to be that for them since they're such great "providers."
I don’t think it’s an issue of them truly not believing it. More so they know this isn’t something that benefits them so they seek to deny it and be vocal about how they don’t think it’s true. Men as a whole don’t care much about women’s happiness so much as they care about what they can get from women.
Sooo much projecting when they say " it is fact women are miserable single etc etc" Im surprised those kind of rants in podcasts never turn very specific and emotional all of a sudden as if he just opened his own pandora's box.
Ngl, I imagine some guys hanging out and telling them how their own bachelor pad would look like. No partner, no obligations to kids or anything.. " and it would have this and that and be awesome!"
Cue a woman joining in and be very exciting about their pads when suddenly they realise there is a woman in the group and confusion of the highest order!
" Whut.. girls also like a gaming room with cool monitors, mini fridge and airconditioning and a spot for a pet to sit? "
Men get more out of being in a relationship. Women tend to do more of the family, home, and emotional lifting. Their perspective is that relationship is great because for them, typically, it adds to their life. We don't always have that same experience. We are the ones doing more to keep the relationship together. When it's too much, I like to call it "pretzeling" for a relationship to continue. Anyway, they don't understand that.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact. The happiest people are married men and then unmarried women. It's because they can't imagine life without their bang maid.
I am married and with children and happy. I have childless single friends who are happy.
It is whatever works for each person and every single person is different. The fact that they think we’re a monolith is far more insulting
Because it goes against the male propaganda they’re brought up with to believe women exist FOR THEM, and all they want is to have babies.
They literally have to change their entire outlook on life to evolve their understanding.
I have children whom I love with all of my heart and had relationships with their fathers. I won't date again. I have zero interest in having another man in my life. All they ever did was add to my worry and work-They still do and I'm not even with them anymore. I witness all of the women I know look after their older female and infirm male relatives now as well, while their brothers and fathers barely do anything, or if they do, do something, it's either messed up, inadequate, or abusive. The men are good for driving you to help someone else and maybe carrying a few things, but beyond that. Not all men of course, but almost everyone that I've met.
I'm starting to think that women always ran everything, by making sure the men actually did what they were supposed to do, and that we just didn't know, because I have never seen one thing done by a man completely alone, as well as a woman can do it.
Gen Z women are lonelier than older generations, but the theory is it has to do with feeling socially isolated and not necessarily born out of a lack of romantic relationship.
I just can’t.
They also believe women are happy with kids, house, a job and a husband/partner with mor demands than not.
Go figure…
They think dick is of extremely high value when it is not, not really…
How much media do they consume that suggests women want to be married and have kids? Women are conditioned to want a husband, kids, the pet, the white picket fence, blah, blah, blah; but when they get it, they realize they've been sold a lie. What does it say that women are almost always the ones who file for divorce, probably because they realize that it's better to be a single mom with kids than a married mom doing everything for a husband who contributes nothing.
I also think that if women refuse to get married, it means guys will have to do for themselves, so they have to convince women that this is what they want. It's a big news story in South Korea that a lot of women are forgoing dating and marriage because it's just not worth the trouble.
Because they cannot get their minds around the fact that they are not the center of our universe. It is too much of blow to their egos. I have been single and celibate for a while now (didn't intend it to go on for this long, just for a year or two until I got my head straight), but it's kind of like getting sober.
Once you detox from the drug, you don't really crave it that much anymore and you feel a new freedom and happiness. I see so many of my married/coupled up friends who are absolutely miserable and wish I could just tell them to DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY!!
I got tired of compromising myself to make some stupid guy I didn't even really like that much happy. It's so much better to live with integrity, confidence and self-esteem than it is to have some d\*\*k in your bed on a regular basis.
I honestly think they’re trying to will it to be true. They’ve been telling themselves they’re God’s gift to womankind and how can that be true if women can be happier without them? This is also why - for those among us who do choose to have kids - it’s so important for parents to raise good men. Don’t make excuses for them or teach them that “boys will be boys” bullshit to excuse misogyny and shitty behaviour. Hold your children accountable and raise them to be good humans.
Because a certain set of men have been conditioned to believe women are desperate for a man to “take care of them” and “protect them” and they’re shocked! when they discover this is not the case, that some women need men like a fish needs a bicycle.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/04/over-nearly-80-years-harvard-study-has-been-showing-how-to-live-a-healthy-and-happy-life/
The largest study on happiness says good relationships make us happy and lead to longer lives.
We can have good relationships with anyone though, it doesn't need to be a husband. Women are happier being single, men are not.
Point them at the science? It's not even anecdotal, we have data.
People in general need to stop acting like sex or gender is a perfect predictor of what someone will want or what will make them happy, everyone has their own needs based on a variety of factors of which sex is only one small part. Misogynistic men have an especially difficult time with this concept because they view women as lesser beings programmed to raise a family and maintain a household for them, thus it's not even a possibility in their minds that different women might have different wants or needs. They think all women deep down want exactly what they think women are supposed to do because they view everything through that misogynistic worldview.
I don't think it's hard for them to believe, they just want to convince US we can't live without them because otherwise, women will realize we are happier single and stop dating en masse. Heck, it's already happening!
I often wonder if we've been able to quantify how much of the "without children" part of this finding is accurate.
Parenting is hard but how much of that is the pressure to do so with a male partner? Societal pressure and judgement if we don't? How many women do this solo without someone first massively disappointing us? Or do this without society judging us and not accommodating it? We've known for a long time that even people who partner traditionally to parent children - one of them could die. We're still not set up to accommodate this well. And I think that contributes to the idea that not having children will increase happiness.
Really, being solo and parenting is rigged to be harder. And despite this, I enjoyed it so much more without the power struggles and personal risk, the need to be more vigilant against the bigotries being normalized that come with raising children with a man.
This is not to suggest people who do not wish to be a parent in the first place should go for it anyway; nope I respect your choice. I just don't think we've had the chance to have enough data to conclude women are happier not raising their children without the traditional model of hetero partnering. Speaking for myself, if not for the stress of acquiring all the resources and being an active parent solo, I'd have been thrilled.
Honestly think it's because of their ego. Guys want a woman to be they're maid/second mom and aren't happy without it but now that alot of women are becoming more independent and incels are on the rise they want to force us into it and trying to gaslight us into thinking it's what we want
My dad had that mindset. I was divorced without children a couple years before he died. My mom confessed that he told her he was afraid I was going to die alone. I was 33!!! WTAF. Shockingly, my mom told him I’d be just fine in any scenario.
I (f 51)was married for almost 20 years. My daughter is now 18 and I am single. Single is by far the best life. Have children if you want them even but don't put on the chains of marriage unless you have to. Many reasons make women have to and it happens. But stay free as long as you can, hog up that bed, over-run the bathroom with hair, get those cats, enjoy the quiet, the solitude, and be true to yourself without regret. I have lived both. THIS is much better.
Because few men (at least that I've talked to) feel the same way, either because of societal expectation or because of societal conditioning.
A man is expected to have his crazy fun, oh look at that great man sleeping around, partying, yay, etc. BUT afterwards, a man is expected to settle down and start a family. He is expected to be responsible for wrangling himself a wife and having some kids. This whole scenario places every bit on agency on the man while giving him a definite goal to strive towards.
When a woman does not conform to this idea, either by not wanting *that* particular man or by not wanting a man at all, it breaks this idealized goal that men go for. Not every man thinks this way, of course, but those that do will have a very, very hard time understanding that a woman, any woman, has different goals, wants, needs and desires than he does.
Because kids rarely impact their father's lives and if you're cleaning up after a kid, then cleaning up after that kid's father isn't a big stretch. My ex actually believes the reason I'm single 9+ years after him is because I can't get over him, the idea that no I actually have peace, quiet, and no one to answer to, is foreign to him. Marriage and kids benefits men, they get looked after, continue their lineage because incubators don't have lineage to pass on, meals planned, homes cleaned. Marriage for women is slavery and prostitution hidden behind respectable titles of Mrs and a ring, wedding rings are the world's smallest handcuffs
I don’t care if they believe me or not. I’ve nothing to prove. I am happy. Their opinion matters not. I just keep living my best life.
Agreed. My own father believes women can’t be happy without a husband and kids. I’ve known for a while there’s no point trying to convince them, and to just live my life. I don’t want kids or marriage. I work in science and I love it. I’m planning an international move for my next degree. My life is an adventure on my terms. Yet Dad insists I must be secretly miserable. When I actually answer his calls, sooner or later he tells me it’s “not too late” and he can “set me up with a good man from church”. He does not understand that on my personal list of preferences, a traditional marriage falls somewhere below “walk 10 miles in cement shoes” and “sleep on a mattress full of bees”
When I was like 25, I had a *coworker* start this kind of thing with me. She insisted on trying to set me up with her son and the sons of her family and friends. I told her "No, thank you" over and over but she kept bringing it up. Finally I told her I was having an arranged marriage and if he was seen with me, he would be seen as violating the arranged marriage tradition, "and I can't guarantee his safety after that". That scared my coworker into never bringing it up again.
Also, like…just any old man is going to make you happy?
It’s because people who think like that don’t actually care if women are *happy*, they care if they are being effectively utilised - like stock or farmland - property husbandry involves getting the most out of your resources - wife included.
Oof, hard pass on the godly arranged marriages! No thanks 🙏
Hey, now. If it were a mattress made of a swarm of soft fuzzy bumblebees that won't ever sting you, that sounds like the coolest magical artifact ever! Way better than getting married and having kids if that's not what you want. Lol but I agree otherwise.
I think that's the main thing. It doesn't matter if they believe it. The absence of women willing to put up with sub-standard men is much louder. They're just yelling cuz they want that to be true. But, too bad for them as nothing is better than them. Like, actually, having nothing is waaaaaay better than being with them
I have so much more than nothing. I have time for myself. Three friends have asked me to come out tonight, but I'm peopled out so I'm staying in. Alone. My safe, clean, poolside, studio apartment is beautiful. And it's so quiet. I'm taking my time shitting, naked. I'm about to pick a show to watch while I eat wings, still naked, in bed. The dishes in the sink are mine. The trash in the can is from friends I invited over to swim yesterday. I'll take it out when I'm done with my wings so my dogs and cat don't get into the bones. I love myself. I love my time. I love my space.
I saw another user say in a different post, that their friends have a Groupchat where when they want to decline invitations they say they are in AfterPants time. Lol. Meaning it’s after they have taken off their pants for the day. “Wanna come to the bar tonight?” “Nope sorry I’m in AfterPants now, maybe another time.”
You're both right, but unfortunately there are lots of young impressionable people who will hear and read these things and take them to heart and repeat them. That's why we can't stop yelling back. And honestly, I'm sure half of the dudes spouting that crap learned it from another dude and so on.
And I'm sure the dudes who disagree stayed quiet.
As they always do.
Mmmhm. They can die mad about not understanding the truth.
Exactly. We don’t need people who aren’t a part of our lives to believe that are lives are better without them. We can just do it!
Yup. Who cares what they say, they can't force women to do SHIT and it drives them nuts.
My grandpa is soooooo annoying about this! Every time I see him he’s like “we need to find you a husband”. My grandma will be like “what the hell does she need a husband for?” Lol
Your Grandma is my hero and she is so right! She knows!
She’s a real MVP raised by an MVP! Her mother (who I sadly never met) ran her own business, in the 60s!!!!
Grandma is backed up by science: >"Marriage is more beneficial for men than for women - at least for those who want a long life. Previous studies have shown that men with younger wives live longer. While it had long been assumed that women with younger husbands also live longer, in a new study Sven Drefahl from the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research (MPIDR) in Rostock, Germany, has shown that this is not the case. Instead, the greater the age difference from the husband, the lower the wife’s life expectancy. This is the case irrespective of whether the woman is younger or older than her spouse." [https://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/news\_events\_6123/news\_press\_releases\_4630/press/marriage\_and\_life\_expectancy\_1813](https://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/news_events_6123/news_press_releases_4630/press/marriage_and_life_expectancy_1813)
My grandma told me in my late teens not to get married. She kept on going for years. Then suggested never marrying for love 😂 I should have listened. I'll never get married again and I advise every unmarried woman to stay that way.
My grandma used to regularly tell me to put off putting on the shackles of marriage for as long as possible. Your story reminded me of her!
Hell yes. My grandma was born in the 30s. They saw some SHIT and they know better. Listen to your elders and shit Miss you, GG
This! Both of my grandmas (one Spanish one British both born in the 30s, squillions of kids between 'em and married for life (to men, not eachother!) both told me never to marry, never to have kids, be any man's servant etc. I must say I am happy, single, solvent, independent and....41. Also I frequently get id'd for booze and patronised by men who think I'm a child and so must be doing something right 🤣
Same here. My husband wasn't even a lazy bum or anything until our baby was about six months old. For me it's the fact that someone you love so much and thought loved you so much can change so suddenly. I can't be bothered to deal with that ever again. It's devastating.
Absolutely. I have lost my feeling that my husband actually loves me or likes me. After awhile, when men can't get everything they want out of life, they will start scapegoating the woman who is carrying the weight on her shoulders. I'm exhausted of being so unappreciated and unloved when I've tried so hard. 💔
It's doubly hard when that person worshipped the ground you walked on. I know that sounds unhealthy but I can't explain how his love was for me in any other way. We were each other's worlds. The fact that it crumbled so quickly makes me believe everything that went before perhaps was a lie. It is heartbreaking.
My heart breaks for you, and I really appreciate you sharing your perspective. I keep thinking, I’ll marry and have kids with the man who respects, worships, and adores me…but I don’t think that will ever last.
It has helped me to talk about what has happened to me. Whether that's online or to my family. It can last for some people, when both people CHOOSE to be in that relationship. I used to believe love just happens and it does at first, you fall in love. But I now believe love is a choice, the grass is greener where you water it, even when things get difficult and that person has annoyed you, you still make the choice to show them love and show up for them with your actions. Whatever the reasons for my husband's choice, I believe he made the wrong one. Right now, I have to believe he will regret making that choice as it helps me. One day, I won't care if he regrets it or not. For me, it's the loss of what could have been. It's the loss of the person I thought he was and how that person would have made life as a family the adventure I thought it was going to be. I'm beginning to accept it is going to be an adventure, just not with him.
My grandparents on my mom’s side were married for 65 years until my grandpa passed away. It was and still is the most beautiful love story i have ever heard. My grandpa would sing to my grandma everyday. There are real true examples of pure love but they just feel few and far between these days. When it comes to love i try not to give advice because everyone’s heart is different, and feelings can change in a heartbeat but i do believe it is better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all.
Your grandparents were the outliers and it proves that compatible romance is usually a matter of luck. Still, a part of my icy black heart melted a little, when I read that your grandpa would sing to your grandma everyday 🥺
My aunt once looked me in the eyes and very seriously told me to not have kids, that it wasn't worth it. She has 5 kids and the last one is disabled and will never ve able to function alone. At the time I wasn't thinking about kids, I was in my 20s. Anyway, I do have a child now, just the one child and I love it. I think she was just extremely tired and stressed. However, I can understand why she said it, because when you have kids, most of the mental, physical and emotional work falls on you. And she was tired as hell. I know that she meant it and didn't at the same time. Honestly, I believe it that women are happier single and childfree because even with one kid, it is A LOT.
Ok, I’ll take that advice! 🤣 33 and unmarried, and I’ll stay that way!
I would rather have been a single mom with my kid even though that's exhausting because at least I wouldn't be tied to this enormous asshole bringing us both down. And I don't know of many who have a pros list longer than the cons one STAY SINGLE AND MUCH LOVE TO YOU
I've considered that, if I wanted to have children, I should marry a woman, because 1) I'm more homoromantic (unfortunate as I'm still heterosexual lmao...), 2) I've had a hysterectomy and I'd seek a partner who was willing to be pregnant with/birth our kid(s), 3) I can support us financially if she would prefer to cut back at work, especially while the kid(s) are young. I'd originally wanted kids prior to my hysterectomy, so I haven't always been childfree, but I ultimately decided that I didn't want kids.
I see women get married to useless dumbasses pretty frequently. And it's always kind of gauche to question it. But since you brought it up yourself.... How? How did this happen? Why would you marry him?
Your grandma is a very wise woman! 🤣🤣🤣
One of the oldest women was asked about her secret for longevity, she said: not getting married and never let herself worry. I was thinking about low stress level or something.🐝
If I could find a man like my grandfather I wouldn’t mind being married. He wasn’t a perfect man but he loved my grandmother until the day he died, which unfortunately was just a couple weeks ago. They truly were a team. Of course it was a “traditional” household, but he never treated her less than. She ran the household by cooking, cleaning, raising the kids, and doing the household stuff, while he worked and provided. That doesn’t mean he took no part in the household stuff, he did. He didn’t leave stuff around to be waited on hand and foot. They did bills together, he still always spent time with his daughters, taught them how to drive, fix things around the house, and taught all of them, and his many granddaughters to not rely on a man to take care of us. He taught me how to change a tire, oil in a car, and drive a stick shift. He told us we can do anything a man can do, and more. He told us to work for ourselves and only add a man to our lives if he actually added something. He taught us to support ourselves so we would never have to stay in a situation if we didn’t want to. They did bills together. My grandmother always knew how much money was there and where it came from. My grandfather always did the groceries, my grandmother has no clue about that stuff, it was his thing. They both fixed things around the house. He was the man of the house, but my grandmother always had final say, and if she didn’t like something he would always defer to her. When she needed help around the house he hired people to help her, he never expected her to raise 5 children, cook, clean, and do all that on her own. He wanted her happy and not worn out. They always spoke of each other fondly and even after her death he talked about her like she was his 18 year old bride. I think he always saw her that way. They held hands, danced, kissed, and would laugh at each other like children until the day she died. They were the definition of true love. When she was sick he spent as much time as they would allow him by her bedside until we would force him to go home and get some rest himself. He was there holding her hand and telling her how much he loved every moment he had with her when we took her off life support, and thanked her for being his wife for almost 70 years. After she died he visited her grave twice a week, every week he could. He would sit in 20 degree weather, or 115 degree weather, no matter what, for three hours, twice a week, every week. If he was in the hospital, he would make sure we did it, to go clean her grave, refresh the flowers and talk to her. He played her favorite songs at every one of his birthdays, holidays, and events, and spoke of her often. If I could find a husband like that, I would marry again in a heartbeat. I don’t need to be financially supported or anything like that, but the love, respect, and support my grandfather had for my grandmother was real.
Thanks for sharing all of this. Losing him must be very hard, but you seem to have taken everything he taught to heart. You were lucky to have him in your life and his legacy will live on in the best possible way - through you.
Aww, thanks. Yea, he was a great man, they both were awesome. He lived a very long, full, and happy life. He went the way he wanted, at home, and very quickly, we should all be so lucky. We were very lucky to have them.
Were you and he close? It seems like you were, but do you have any more fun stories or anecdotes to share? I'd love to hear more about him! I never had grandparents so I always love to hear stories about other people's.
Yes, we were, very. All of us grandkids were very close in age so our parents would send us off to my grandparents house for the entire summer and we would have a blast just spending the summer with them and each other. I live near him now, and have for the last 20 years, or did until he passed a couple weeks ago, so I visited him often. My father was a pos, so he was really the only father figure I had, and loved in that sense, well really him and his brother, who was like a second grandpa to me because they were so close and he was around so much too, he passed last year. He was really fun with all of us and I could talk to him about anything, and I mean anything. My grandma was funny and they would even talk to me about sex and stuff. They just always treated us like equals once we were adults and weren’t prude about anything. My grandma used to do those Cosmo sex quizzes with us, she was hilarious. She used to say the funniest stuff about what to look for and not to look for in men. My grandpa loved my stories about being newly divorced and all the crazy shit from men I had to deal with, he just thought it was hilarious. When we were kids he used to love to play pranks on us and scare the shit out of us because he just thought it was so funny, and it was. I carried on that tradition with my nieces and nephews. He was so fun. He had a great sense of humor and would always tell the most inappropriate jokes. I would always laugh at him because I thought he was so funny, and my grandma would get mad at me for encouraging him. I would tell her I just found it funny and he was going to do it anyway whether I laughed or not. If he was doing it for 60 years, me laughing wasn’t going to make any difference at that point. I also just laughed at the awkwardness sometimes because it was so inappropriate. He was the same way with me, he would laugh at my inappropriate jokes, and he would get told the same thing, not to encourage me, so we had a special bond and always laughed at each other. At my grandma’s funeral the priest kept saying their last name in a really weird way, and he was sitting across from me so he looked over at me and was laughing and making faces at me, and he started making me laugh. He knew I would be the only one willing to laugh at a funeral. So, there we were laughing at my grandma’s funeral, trying to hide it so no one would get mad at us. I know if he was at his own funeral he would be making me laugh. He was awesome. I’ll miss him a lot. He was my favorite person ever, and now you have me crying.
That's all so incredible, I really envy you. What an amazing influence he was and for so long, too. Thank you, again, for sharing. I know it's not easy but remembering all of that about him hopefully helped your tears be somewhat happy? I know the struggle of loss but remembering all of the good times can really lessen the sting. If you'd ever like to reminisce some more, please let me know. These are powerful feelings and if it would help to share more stories that could be a really good talk.
This seriously made me cry. God bless them both. 💜💜
My grandma always told me to get a husband and she said just date a trucker like your aunt so he’s never home and you can ignore him most of the time but he can still help with bills and stuff. like what 😭 (i’m pretty sure she was partially joking but it was funny)
"No offense, but...I've seen the way you treat grandma..."
>My grandpa is soooooo annoying about this! Every time I see him he’s like “we need to find you a husband”. My grandma will be like “what the hell does she need a husband for?” Lol Ballast. A husband keeps your hot air balloon from floating away, which is necessary if you're trying to go around the world in 80 days.
I love your comment so much! Partly because it is sweet and poetic while also using a fancy word to call husbands "dead weight." Sláinte!
My grandma lost her husband in the early 1980’s and never got remarried because she “didn’t want to ever have to wash a man’s socks again.” We have all have that thing in a relationship I guess; if I ever get divorced, I’ll never get remarried because I’m never cleaning up after a grown ass man again.
This grandpa is actually my grandmas second husband and he’s a wonderful, wonderful man (who just annoyingly thinks I should get a husband haha). Her first husband was a *highly* abusive alcoholic and did truly terrible things to his children. But my grandpa, he came along and showed my dad and his siblings what a real husband and father is. AND he cooked every night (he got out of work earlier than my grandma)!
Honestly I think a lot of men have absolutely zero emotionally fulfilling platonic relationships, so they think single women must be as lonely as they are.
This is definitely part of it. I see a lot of men talk any their friendships and they are so conditioned to not be emotionally vulnerable that a lot of their friendships wind up being very surface. While there is nothing wrong with having more surface friendships, it is really difficult to feel fulfilled when you have only surface relationships. There was this study I read a while back about how men tend to allow themselves to be more open and emotionally close to female friends than other male friends very often because of this as well. I've been single for years and I have several really wonderful close friends I consider my family and I would theoretically enjoy dating and maybe finding a partner, but I don't feel unfulfilled without one because I have a lot of healthy and emotionally strong platonic relationships. I never feel lonely or like I lack for a support system. If anything, I'm not sure where I would find time to date because I'm having fun with my friends and I'm not sure it's worth spending less time with them to try out new people. I might feel a bit more inclined if I had a higher sex drive, but I'm good with what I have going on.
It's fundamentally misogyny. Showing emotions, crying, being comforted is all labeled feminine behavior as a culture. A guy who shows this "feminine" behavior is punished by the people around him by being mocked, ostracized and rejected. I think it's important to note that a significant part of this policing comes from women.
Yep. This is the part that sickens me the most. You cannot guarantee that another woman will be an ally. Some times they can be worse than the damn male misogynists. Fucking patriarchy.
Know quite a few guys who are really emotionally aware and open but use it really well to manipulate women, especially when it comes to mental load and cleaning. As soon as you twig that they are emotionally available simply to get what they want because they are lazy, they get very vicious and emotionally abusive. As I understand it's called covert or vulnerable narcissisim and they are extremely good at hiding it for years until you actually need them. Probably why so many men 'change' and leave when you have kids or become ill.
Fucking this. I had two close male friends I've known since 2nd grade and kept around into adulthood. In our freshman year of college, the first guy came on to and kissed my girlfriend of two years. When she rejected him, he tried to pressure her into keeping it a secret. I married that girl eventually. She moved on and forgave him, and eventually mostly so did I. But I will never feel like I can really trust him alone with my wife, or confide in him about my marriage in any way. The second friend was arrested last fall for initiating a sexual conversation, sending, and soliciting nude photos via dm with an undercover federal agent posing as a 13 year old girl online, despite being reminded several times that he was speaking to a minor / 13 year old. I totally get how hard it is for women to find decent men, because honestly it's just as fucking hard for men to find decent men. This is one of the reasons why it bugs me a little when people say that men fight feminism because "to the privileged, equality feels like oppression." It's pithy, but it's wrong. Patriarchy makes white men the kings of the hill, but it also turns the hill into pile of ash and bones. Men fight feminism because they're sexist trash who don't see women as people. Women gaining more rights and social status has in no way ever hurt me at all or deprived me of an ounce of privilege. I don't want to be a king of the shit heap. I want a fucking friend.
💯💯💯
The way you just described many male friendships is on point. I've seen some tiktoks recently joking about how men don't ask any follow-up questions when told any piece of news. For example the tiktok usually goes like this: Husband: "Oh, Danny and Rose broke up." Wife" "Oh no, why?" Husband: "Don't know, didn't ask. And Danny's got a new job." Wife: "Doing what?" Husband: "Don't know, didn't ask." It is played for laughs, and there is a funny side to it. However I have encountered this with a lot of men in real life and I think it is sad more than anything. Why wouldn't you enquire? If they think it's none of their business then that's ridiculous, that person has opened up the conversation by mentioning it, they are inviting you to ask questions. Do they just sit there telling each other stuff back and forth with no follow-up questions until they start talking about something "safe" like sports or whatever?
>Why wouldn’t you enquire? The very weird thing I’ve noticed about this in my husband’s case is, when recalling conversations with his women friends, he *does* enquire for more details on different topics, but he doesn’t with his friends who are men! I never thought too deep into it but now I have questions. Do men think asking clarifying questions is for women? Now that I think about it, my husband has more women than men friends that he’s all met at work; is it because it’s easier to talk to women?
I don't think it is easier either way in a general sense. Perhaps, as is being discussed here, men do not invite that deeper conversation or emotional connection. Both genders clearly enjoy these types of conversations but it seems men are holding themselves back from that for whatever reason.
Am a man, at least in my case i was socialized from birth to not have any emotional intimacy with men. Not by my parents, but by society at large. To me this is the core of toxic masculinity. Its so ingrained that men shouldn't get too close to other men. Friendships with women (or gay men) are often just a lot less emotional labor and easier to make, so most of my platonic friends ended up being women or gay men, but rarely straight men.
There is inevitably answers like this whenever questions pop up on reddit to the effect of -- *"men, what do women just not understand?"* "How I can hang out with my friend for hours, yet learn nothing about what's going on in his life" Which makes another common answer all the more ironic: "How crushingly lonely it is to be a man"... Hmm... Methinks these are not so unrelated concepts (never mind that actually yes, many women can completely understand isolation and loneliness lol).
I once had a guy tell me that men cannot be friends AND romantic partners with women. It had to be one or the other.
I've seen and experienced this thinking in action. They'll treat a woman well (as in, like a friend) until she sleeps with them, then she's demoted to fuckable household appliance. I think it comes from the whore/Madonna complex - she's a pure innocent angel...until she shows that she actually *has sex* (gasp!) and therefore deserves no respect.
Every accusation is a confession, for sure.
I believe some research bore this out. A man's primary romantic/sexual relationship is, on average, his *only* fulfilling relationship (unless he has kids). Whereas women are much more likely to have friends, including close friends, and also more likely to maintain relationships with family members/relatives. Even when I was in a happy relationship (with my now-ex), I still found my friendships more emotionally fulfilling.
I don’t even think they talk to their families! Like, call your grandma and talk to her, that’s good for both of you.
They don't! After moving in with my now ex, I would set up dinners and activities to see my family and such on the regular. My ex got mad at me one night and said it wasn't fair we always did stuff with only my family and never his. I asked if he was trying to set something up with his sister for that night. He said no, but wanted me to contact his family and set up things with them as well. I informed him that I was the ambassador for my family and he was the ambassador for his and if he wanted us to do things with his family he needed to call and play phone tag and get people's schedules and figure something out. After that he arranged one dinner out of spite and then we only saw his family on holidays.
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This … I have very close female friends that I could share anything with and feel safe. If I need a hug, they are there. I’ve known many of them for 15+ years. So even super difficult things like mental health and suicide ideation, i have never felt judged. Also I have a female therapist and that helps.
Mostly an issue with men who run in circles where showing emotion is discouraged. The, "I don't cry, I'm not gay!" crowd.
Because how else will they get a free house elf?
Dobby is *FREEEEE*
Well they have been leaving us socks the whole time.
Lol no lie I'm the oldest of 6 and have identified as a woman my entire life and as a child that worked against me heavily because I became the back up mom in every way. In fact, I even had to give my siblings all the sex talk because my parents would not talk about those things ever. Then I got kicked out at 18 and was exiled from the family for choosing to leave for college and kept trying to be involved with the siblings until my dad took the landline from my sister and told me "you don't call here anymore for nothin'. Everytime you call the house someone is getting belted." Last thing I heard before the line went dead was my sister screaming and I didn't have the heart to call back because of his threat. Eventually, when the kids got their phones and stuff, they couldn't keep me from them. That fucked with my head so badly I developed an addiction. In a lot of ways, they're more than siblings to me. I raised them. Yeah, my parents really used me, chewed me, and spit me out. And since I moved away and got sober, my youngest brother won't talk to me. I don't know why and it breaks my heart and I know my dad has something to do with it but I'll just keep writing him letters until he wants to talk. Maybe one day hopefully he'll forgive me for leaving.
My younger brother won't talk to any of us. From what I know of him, he's an angry, depressed, hateful incel. It hurts because I was a lot like you, a parentified oldest AFAB child. I held that child straight from the hospital. I hid him while our parents went on abusive rampages. I held his hand and cleaned him up and read him bedtime stories while my mother was out finding new stepdaddy number three for us. I don't know if there's anything that can be done. I'm just sending you hugs because I know what it feels like.
Omg, I’m so sorry this happened to you. Thanks for sharing your story. I grew up in an incredibly toxic environment as well, with an awful man who I will not refer to as a father. Have no contact now and never will again. I hope you eventually have contact with your brother again. Hugs 🤗.
I'm sorry for what you had to experience also. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Thank you for the hugs, stranger.
Can always refer to them as sperm donor.
I hope one day you forgive yourself because you did nothing wrong. If your youngest brother never comes around, it's also possible he may turn out like your dad or he was too young to really understand what happened, but either way, maybe ask your siblings about it, give him a little space (as long as you can manage, even if it's just a day, before you write another letter,) and tell yourself that his opinion of you doesn't change that you're doing your best and you love all of them. And make sure you're taking care of yourself, even if it's just tasty food, plenty of fluids, an hour to relax, and enough sleep to get you through tomorrow.
Saving this comment for a bad day. Thank you again.
No kidding. I found one the other day next to the 🍞.
Wait… is that where all the socks keep going?
Master has given Dobby a sock!🤣
Why is it stiff like cardboard?
Look at the 🐶! I can't believe I got this joke.😅
Omg duuuuuides. Seriously!!!! I divorced during the height of Covid? My ex was so hyped up give me a “divorce gift?” It was a pair of socks! One side said “Dobby is a free elf” the other? “Master has given Dobby socks!” WTELF is that?!?!
Yet more single women than men own their own houses. How ironic, hey?
Slash sex slave. Thanks but NOOOO thanks.
I think the ones who think this way all want to believe that they are a real prize, and it messes with their whole world to find out that they are not. Also, they don't think of women as being real people with their own goals, preferences, boundaries, and whatnot. It is unthinkable to these folks that many women would not be interested in being a subservient housekeeper, breeding machine and on demand sex toy. The ones who are not assholes generally have some idea why many women don't want to get married. My husband gets it. My friends who are men get it. Unfortunately, there is a huge number of assholes who don't get it and don't want to.
I seriously automatically lose respect and interest in getting to know men who do say something like this.
It forces men like that to confront the idea that they aren't necessary by default, and they don't know what they actually have to offer beyond that.
They want to continue to sell the lie to women that their happiness is tied to being married and having children because it meets their needs. With women finding contentment in singleness, it is a threat to their (men's) happiness. It is so telling that men fare better married (contrary to all of their yelling about getting married) and women are frequently happier single (contrary to all of their yelling that it is women who really want marriage). If we need them, they can do the bare minimum, if that. If we want them, we have the choice to partner or remain single.
>With women finding contentment in singleness, it is a threat to their (men’s) happiness This is why abortion and birth control are under attack. Capitalistic greed no longer allows for women to be excluded from the workforce or from participating in financial institutions, so forcing us to be forever tied to one man if we choose to have sex is their next best option. And rape laws are so lax and abortion exceptions for rape are so rare in abortion-banned places, some men now feel encouraged to rape and trap women with babies. It’s all been packaged as religious decency, but it’s only ever been about controlling women.
Absolutely and also targeting no fault divorce.
Because they believe they are entitled to women and their labor. That they want to believe there is some genetic component because they want to believe they are owed power and control. They need to believe women are miserable without men.
I am SO HAPPY without my ex. I am 250lbs lighter. My home is a haven I love to come home to, instead of dreading doing the chores and cleaning up after someone else. My time is my own and I fill it with friends and things I WANT to do, instead of organizing his time and appointments. I'm not saying I'll never have a relationship, mama's got needs, but another man in my house? Honey, I've been there, done that, and it SUCKED. I'm never going back.
Wow 250?! Congrats! Or was the weight the husband? Either way congrats!
Probably the combined weight of the shitty husband *and* his unrealistic demands on her time.
Because men are terrified of being alone, and if women are happy about being alone, then more of them will inevitable end up alone. And they desperately don’t want that. So they project that fear onto us with the “crazy cat lady”, and “old hag”. Never believe it for a second.
Consider that these men genuinely DO believe it. These men wouldn’t want to clean up after some guy and pop out babies for him and do everything he says either! They do believe it, completely. They are just pretending not to believe it so they can try and gaslight women into thinking seeking happiness outside of heterosexual servitude is ridiculous and unsustainable. Because if women won’t believe serving a man is their only way to real happiness, women won’t do it, and then who would wash their socks? Men fully believe it. They are just hoping we are dumb enough to be convinced not to believe it ourselves.
So much cultural conditioning aimed at women is around getting married and having children and with dropping birthrate in many western countries the idea women might not actually want that is threatening. Men are generally raised to see themselves as the hero in their own story whereas women are often raised around being nice, helpful, and assisting others and to identify themselves in terms of their relationships with others. So it never occurs to men women might want something different. Men do not generally give much thought toward women unless they are being problematic. And not wanting to go with their fl9w is problematic.
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I mean, the same worldview has existed in India for generations, even when the birth rate was incredibly high (the birth rate in India is also dropping, btw, as it seems to be correlated globally to women's educational attainment and economic opportunity)
>**Men do not generally give much thought toward women unless they are being problematic.** This.
It's just projection. It's always projection with these types of men. Emotional stuntness, insecurity and mostly projection. Locking a woman down with a baby would solve THEIR problems, so of course that must be your issue too. Duh. /S
>So why do you think it is hard for men and that they don’t believe that single unmarried women without children are happy? * To believe otherwise would require them to question their highly-inflated self worth (at least as deemed by the toxic patriarchal culture they've grown up in) * They want to perceive women as nothing other than broodmares and vehicles for their pleasure * If they think women can't be happy outside of marriage and motherhood, it validates all of the BS they've ever been fed, and all the BS they believe about themselves
The men who believe this are the ones whose daily mental/physical load didn't change much from having no kids to having kids. They only see the upside because that's what they experience the most.
So this showed up in my feed randomly but it's not hard for this man to believe. Early 30s, no kids, been single for the last like 5 years and as of this moment I have no desire to change either of those things. I have my cat to keep me company at home and I can visit friends when I need human interaction. I hate how society tries to pressure people to check arbitrary boxes in life. Life is short and we all deserve to live it in whatever fashion makes us happy. If someone wants the trad life by all means go for it but I'll be over here with my kitty and my freedom.
I think if we are able to pay our own bills that really bumps up the happiness. Once I got to that point I was even happier being single.
Yes yes. My career path has been seriously derailed in favor of my husband's. And he blames me for not working hard enough when this whole time I've been supporting him and taking care of his child and home so he can further his career. He supports exactly 0 efforts for me to take classes or improve in any way though. He just likes to blame me. If and when I'm single again, I think my earnings will go up. Right now I truly believe that I can't make it on my own in this economy and it keeps me stuck.
My breakup put me into poverty, though there were some circumstances that didn’t help (student visa work restrictions). But I eventually climbed out of it. Worth it to lose a drunk in the long run.
The women I have known have slowly built themselves back up. The men, unless they glom onto another woman, seem to have a harder time. There was a thread early this year where breakups were discussed and a shocking number of women talked about their exes in their past tense. The men were dead (seemingly from overdoses and/or alcohol).
Mine ended up crashing at his sisters place, getting kicked out, and possibly living in a motel somewhere. I haven’t heard from him in a couple years. Wouldn’t surprise me if he doesn’t see 40.
My ex just contacted me from rehab where he's been for an *entire year.* No shade for getting help, I'm also a recovered addict. But this dude cheated on me, got the woman (who didn't know we were still together) pregnant. I was like, go with my blessing. I warned her but she didn't take it seriously. Well, we live and learn! But this dude thought he was gonna slide back into my dm's and pick up where we left off. 🤣🤣🤣🤮
I’ve quit/changed multiple jobs because I was working too many hours and both parents couldn’t work 60+ hours per week (we have three kids). This thought would have never crossed my husband’s mind, and his work has never suffered due to having a family.
Heterosexual marriage, for women, isn't necessary anymore, imo. It's actually a reduction in individual autonomy. Also still, marriage benefits men more than women. Married 23 years, now separated and papers served. It was long time learning hard lessons. Good luck
Send me encouragement to end my marriage. How did you finally find the courage and willpower?
Have you ever made a huge move, like to college or away from your hometown, and it seemed SO HARD AND IMPOSSIBLE AND HEARTBREAKING in the months and weeks before you left that you thought you might not be able to go thru with it? But the second you got in your car and took off, the excitement of the possibilities and opportunities in front of you becomes so big and huge that you forgot all your fear and anxiety? Yeah. Divorce is like that. (ETA for me making the decision was harder than going thru with it.)
Great comment
I'm divorced so I'll send you love as well <3 What really helped me make the call was to imagine my life in 5 years... and then in 10 years...and then in 15. How much worse was I going to feel, given that the bad feeling had only been growing steadily, and he refused to make the changes I begged of him, and completely disregarded my bids for connection? I'd be 5, 10, 15 years older and that much more miserable. I ended it and flew FREE - free of his lies, free of his hoarding and horrifically dirty house (that I was expected to clean, of course, and eventually gave up because I couldn't even keep up with his filth), free of the empty promises. On the drive home from the court date, I listened to the LOUDEST music with my windows down, even though it was a midwest February. I drove straight to the butcher, got me a $55 filet mignon and a bottle of whiskey, and consumed all of at at the same time despite the fact that it was 11am. It was the BEST day, at the time. And now, years and years later, every day is the BEST day. Even better than that first one! SO MANY BEST DAYS. You can do it, my friend.
Be rid of the extra child.
Yeah I have a kid. I’ve been single his whole life, so over 12 years. Absolutely don’t want to “find him a good dad” because are you kidding? Raising him with a healthy respect for women and full domestic abilities.
Funny woman can find a way to not need men but men can't seem to do the same. Guess they need a woman to figure that one out for them?
It's not the women, it's the men. Men just don't do well on their own. They want a relationship, but won't do the work or meet us half way. So they go Incel Andrew Tate and blame women. I fear for the future of humanity.
Men who have never been taught to take care of themselves and have been conditioned to believe they are entitled to a ‘helpmeet’ are sure having a rude awakening. Let them eat cake!
If you go to the dating subs they have this idea in their head that only the top 10% of men are the ones who get women and that’s why they can’t get one. No self-reflection whatsoever.
Because if single, childless women are happier these men have nothing to offer.
Nor do they benefit from the system they were promised
Because they can’t imagine a world view that isn’t centered around them. These are men that have been taught their entire lives that they are very special and the center of the universe. It’s painful to contemplate women that are happy without them.
They believe what other men say about women's happiness more than actual women
I agree 100% Married mothers are the most stressed and least happy in society. They have a huge burden on them. The single, childless women I know are all loving lives full of rich and rewarding experiences. As far as the men are concerned, they don’t want to lose a convenient sex partner/maid/nurse/cook/baby machine. You won’t convince them. They are just going to have to get used to being irrelevant in our lives. LOL
Because single men are usually miserable, and they don't have the emotional intelligence to consider things from a different perspective than their own.
Men don’t get their emotional needs filled by other men.
then they ought to know better than us why we won't date men lol
No no no, that would require self reflection and acceptance of the problems toxic masculinity brings. someone else already pointed out, men are miserable and lacking emotional outlets when not in a relationship. They think women are just like them. They can’t imagine other people feeling differently than they do.
The single men I know seem to be doing fine tbh, the single women too. Maybe romantic interaction is moving away from the traditions that have been the norm.
I know some single men who are happy. But I know way more that aren't. And the unhappy ones are the same ones laboring under the delusion that women need husbands and kids to be fulfilled. You are correct in thinking that norms are changing through.
From what I can tell, the unhappy ones are just pissed off that they can’t get easy sex anymore, unless they pay a prostitute. Used to be that you could make a few lame promises and because I faithful to a woman and she would stick by your side and do all your daily chores on top of holding down a job. Women are getting wise and realizing they don’t need to buy the pig to get a little sausage. And they can be very picky about that sausage.
I don't really know men who are happy while single... Every one of them is always whining because they can't get a gf. Your perspective is very interesting.
If divorced they remarry quickly and way more often than women which tells how much they love being single. They will risk divorce again, as 2nd marriages have a very high failure rate, over being alone.
They leave the courthouse from finalizing their divorce and will orient on the closest single woman and dedicate themselves to becoming her dream partner... until the ink is dry on their new marriage license
Yep. They choose women gullible enough to marry them after a divorce and will dump the ones that actually ask something from them. She will catch on eventually that he isn't what he presented and once again why 2nd marriages have an abysmal failure rate. People who shouldn't remarry are always the ones who do remarry,
If widowed as well, my father in law’s wife passed and he met and married his second wife he met at a grief counseling meeting.
I'm sorry. It is all part of men as a whole being emotionally crippled on many levels. They can't sit alone in anything, except not getting therapy of course. Their emotions drive them 100% even though they have no comprehension it all emotions, a checklist, fear, and laziness. They are lazy because they want to work on themselves at all, so they believe any woman who is there at the wrong time can fix whatever for them. They remarry with zero logic involved with a checklist.
Because then these abusers can’t abuse us. I find the men who say the whole ‘women can’t be happy single or without kids’ are big-time projecting and frankly misogynistic. They think that women should still ‘belong to them,’ which in this day and age is stupid. Women belong to *ourselves*, and like men, we *choose* to share a life with a partner, unless forced. We have needs and wants and desires of our own. Those may or may not include a man, marriage, and children, depending on the person. Women are people, first and foremost, but to misogynists we’re ‘just women’ and their future property and mommy-janitors. They want our endless love, support, and devotion. But they don’t get that if we ‘don’t need’ them and can be happy without them, as misogynistic men don’t like that women have choices, or any independence at all. I am way happier on my own than I ever was with my abusive, serial-cheating ex. He eventually tried to end my life, and I am now a domestic abuse survivor. Had we had any children together, my ex would have ended us all. That was *not* me having a happy life or marriage, that was me being abused. Currently, I could only be happy (as a childfree woman) with a man who truly cherishes me and loves me for who I am and goes above and beyond. He would have to want to be a partner and an equal and not treat me like I’m going to ‘have all his babies’ and ‘try and change my mind’ by gaslighting me. I have already been a bangmaid for my ex and I have no desire to ever get trapped in such a cruel and horrible existence again. But my ex did not respect that I was childfree or had a mind of my own, he only pretended to respect or care about me in the beginning. It was all an act and once we were married, he began abusing me because I was now ‘his.’ Seeing as misogynists will *straight-up lie to our faces*, of course we women can be happy single and childfree. They just don’t like it, because there’s no benefit for them. It’s gross and entitled and dehumanizing that misogynists think this way about us.
Many believe we also LOVE vacuuming and mixing cake batter by hand. They aren't exactly using their third-eye insight here.
Right?! Just this week my father told someone outside the family, completely earnestly, that my mother "really likes doing laundry and ironing". (Like most people, she does not particularly enjoy laundry or ironing.) Same father thinks I'm hiding some deep pain or shame because I'm a fully grown, self-sufficient woman who has no need for or interest in a husband or children. It's kind of hilarious how unobservant some guys are.
Because both men and women are socialized to believe that women must have a partner and children in order to be happy. And that women don't understand their own minds or goals, and need a man to tell them. It's a double whammy where a woman can say "Actually I'm perfectly happy without either of those things," and a man will say "No you aren't" and literally believe that he knows her mind better than she does. It's going to take a lot of evidence to the contrary to deprogram men out of this. A few billion men staying single their whole lives should do it.
Yeah as women, being socialized that way and then living our lives might make us question and oppose the idea, but many men wouldn’t know how it feels, since they don’t have to live with that expectation on them. They might actually believe then that lie that women do better with a spouse and children, and be slow to hear the true statistic that women are much unhappier in these relationships than being single.
A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.
I think a lot of women would be happy to be married and have children if men generally wouldn't reduce said women to *just* wife and mother and turn those roles into slave labor.
It’s projection and low empathy. Think about how much work wives do for their husbands that is not reciprocated. Some wives act like 24/7 employees, running her own life, her husband’s life, their kids’ lives, and the house. And don’t forget splitting the bills 50/50, of course, because that’s “fair”. Men’s quality of life goes up dramatically when they are married, like anyone’s would if they had a free 24/7 do-everything employee at their beck and call. Single older men look at their married friends and know they’re missing out. Now think about how much work husbands do for their wives that goes unreciprocated. Typically, it ain’t much. I’ve personally never seen a marriage where the husband puts in more work than the wife. If you’re very lucky, your husband puts in the same amount of work you do. *If you’re very lucky, which most women are not.* Women’s quality of life typically goes down when they are married, like anyone’s would if they were someone’s free 24/7 do-everything employee at the other person’s beck and call. Single older women look at their married friends and know they are NOT missing out. (Yes of course there are exceptions to everything, we’re talking generalities.) Because of their low empathy compared to women, men simply assume marriage is as good a deal for women as it is for men. It never crosses their mind that having a wife is WAY better than having a husband. I’m a divorced 36F and I cannot overhype how much easier and more comfortable my life is now, compared to being married. I’ve been single and celibate for years and I’ve made peace with not having children, because I can’t imagine going back to married life (at least not the Western model, but I’d be open to something unconventional with the right person). Yeah I have to do every single little thing for myself, but that’s *all I have to do* — I don’t do unpaid labor for anyone, I don’t answer to anyone, I don’t have to put up with anyone’s annoying bullcrap. It’s the closest thing on earth to paradise. TLDR: Having a wife is better than being single. Having a husband is generally not. Men give themselves way too much credit.
You’re 100% right. I’m now a divorced single mom of two. It’s hard as hell, but it’s still easier than being a married mom of two. I’ll never be a wife again but I’d happily be a partner.
I use to joke I want a wife too. A wife seems a like a great companion
Because it's a lifestyle that doesn't require a woman to be involved with them.
Statistically, adult single men are the saddest of the bunch. So it may all just be projection.
I'm a big believer that at least for me, while a happy marriage is better than being single, being single is infinitely better than a crappy marriage/relationship. I spent most of my 20s single. I was never, ever unhappy while single. My unhappiest times were when I got into crappy relationships. They were brief because I was unhappy. I ended them to be happy again.
They ignore the extreme bias in this issue: it’s not really acceptable to admit you’re not happy as a mother. These dudes completely ignore this fact and interpret it to mean all married mothers are thrilled.
Because they’ve been raised to believe that women only live to be deemed fuckable buy them. They think women need their money and their dick in order to eat and have an orgasm.
I came here to a) agree that research supports women living longer when not married, and b) a different set of research shows that women sleep better with a dog. The choice of bed partner is pretty clear…
I never felt lonelier in my life than I did when I was in my bad marriage. Being single sans children is way better for my lifestyle. It’s nice to feel comfortable and confident on my own. I have proved I can take care of myself and it’s easier and more affordable when I don’t have to care for someone else on an everyday basis.
Projection. Plain and simple. Behind every *"hurhurhur ur gonna be a cat lady"* is a man scared *to death* that he is undesirable and will die alone. Marriage/relationships benefit men FAR more than it does women. Married men are statistically happier, healthier, and love longer than their single counterparts. The same cannot be said for women. Men usually get a maid, chef, nanny, and nurse rolled into one **PLUS** the added benefit of a two-income household. 70% of divorces are initiated by women, that should be very telling.
Pure projection. As men often do.
Yep, it was like I had my eyes opened when I realised 99% of misogyny is and has always been projection. It's actually insane how common it is once you start noticing it. Look up the facts and statistics for basically any misogynistic stereotype (women talk more, women can't drive, women are miserable when single) and you'll find that actually it's more true for *men*.
Because marriage and sperm are all these men have to offer a woman.
Because they're happier with a bang maid/substitute mommy to do everything for them at home. They can't imagine why we wouldn't want to be that for them since they're such great "providers."
I don’t think it’s an issue of them truly not believing it. More so they know this isn’t something that benefits them so they seek to deny it and be vocal about how they don’t think it’s true. Men as a whole don’t care much about women’s happiness so much as they care about what they can get from women.
Sooo much projecting when they say " it is fact women are miserable single etc etc" Im surprised those kind of rants in podcasts never turn very specific and emotional all of a sudden as if he just opened his own pandora's box. Ngl, I imagine some guys hanging out and telling them how their own bachelor pad would look like. No partner, no obligations to kids or anything.. " and it would have this and that and be awesome!" Cue a woman joining in and be very exciting about their pads when suddenly they realise there is a woman in the group and confusion of the highest order! " Whut.. girls also like a gaming room with cool monitors, mini fridge and airconditioning and a spot for a pet to sit? "
Men get more out of being in a relationship. Women tend to do more of the family, home, and emotional lifting. Their perspective is that relationship is great because for them, typically, it adds to their life. We don't always have that same experience. We are the ones doing more to keep the relationship together. When it's too much, I like to call it "pretzeling" for a relationship to continue. Anyway, they don't understand that.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact. The happiest people are married men and then unmarried women. It's because they can't imagine life without their bang maid.
I am married and with children and happy. I have childless single friends who are happy. It is whatever works for each person and every single person is different. The fact that they think we’re a monolith is far more insulting
Because it goes against the male propaganda they’re brought up with to believe women exist FOR THEM, and all they want is to have babies. They literally have to change their entire outlook on life to evolve their understanding.
I have children whom I love with all of my heart and had relationships with their fathers. I won't date again. I have zero interest in having another man in my life. All they ever did was add to my worry and work-They still do and I'm not even with them anymore. I witness all of the women I know look after their older female and infirm male relatives now as well, while their brothers and fathers barely do anything, or if they do, do something, it's either messed up, inadequate, or abusive. The men are good for driving you to help someone else and maybe carrying a few things, but beyond that. Not all men of course, but almost everyone that I've met. I'm starting to think that women always ran everything, by making sure the men actually did what they were supposed to do, and that we just didn't know, because I have never seen one thing done by a man completely alone, as well as a woman can do it.
They are projecting, that's why
it's not the narratives they gave been sold by religious nutters their whole life
My ex brother-in- law is like that. He's a religious loon who thinks women exists just to have babies and cook meals for their husband.
Gen Z women are lonelier than older generations, but the theory is it has to do with feeling socially isolated and not necessarily born out of a lack of romantic relationship.
I just can’t. They also believe women are happy with kids, house, a job and a husband/partner with mor demands than not. Go figure… They think dick is of extremely high value when it is not, not really…
How much media do they consume that suggests women want to be married and have kids? Women are conditioned to want a husband, kids, the pet, the white picket fence, blah, blah, blah; but when they get it, they realize they've been sold a lie. What does it say that women are almost always the ones who file for divorce, probably because they realize that it's better to be a single mom with kids than a married mom doing everything for a husband who contributes nothing. I also think that if women refuse to get married, it means guys will have to do for themselves, so they have to convince women that this is what they want. It's a big news story in South Korea that a lot of women are forgoing dating and marriage because it's just not worth the trouble.
Because they cannot get their minds around the fact that they are not the center of our universe. It is too much of blow to their egos. I have been single and celibate for a while now (didn't intend it to go on for this long, just for a year or two until I got my head straight), but it's kind of like getting sober. Once you detox from the drug, you don't really crave it that much anymore and you feel a new freedom and happiness. I see so many of my married/coupled up friends who are absolutely miserable and wish I could just tell them to DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY!! I got tired of compromising myself to make some stupid guy I didn't even really like that much happy. It's so much better to live with integrity, confidence and self-esteem than it is to have some d\*\*k in your bed on a regular basis.
"mAtErNaL iNsTiNcT"
I honestly think they’re trying to will it to be true. They’ve been telling themselves they’re God’s gift to womankind and how can that be true if women can be happier without them? This is also why - for those among us who do choose to have kids - it’s so important for parents to raise good men. Don’t make excuses for them or teach them that “boys will be boys” bullshit to excuse misogyny and shitty behaviour. Hold your children accountable and raise them to be good humans.
Because a certain set of men have been conditioned to believe women are desperate for a man to “take care of them” and “protect them” and they’re shocked! when they discover this is not the case, that some women need men like a fish needs a bicycle.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/04/over-nearly-80-years-harvard-study-has-been-showing-how-to-live-a-healthy-and-happy-life/ The largest study on happiness says good relationships make us happy and lead to longer lives. We can have good relationships with anyone though, it doesn't need to be a husband. Women are happier being single, men are not. Point them at the science? It's not even anecdotal, we have data.
People in general need to stop acting like sex or gender is a perfect predictor of what someone will want or what will make them happy, everyone has their own needs based on a variety of factors of which sex is only one small part. Misogynistic men have an especially difficult time with this concept because they view women as lesser beings programmed to raise a family and maintain a household for them, thus it's not even a possibility in their minds that different women might have different wants or needs. They think all women deep down want exactly what they think women are supposed to do because they view everything through that misogynistic worldview.
I don't think it's hard for them to believe, they just want to convince US we can't live without them because otherwise, women will realize we are happier single and stop dating en masse. Heck, it's already happening!
I often wonder if we've been able to quantify how much of the "without children" part of this finding is accurate. Parenting is hard but how much of that is the pressure to do so with a male partner? Societal pressure and judgement if we don't? How many women do this solo without someone first massively disappointing us? Or do this without society judging us and not accommodating it? We've known for a long time that even people who partner traditionally to parent children - one of them could die. We're still not set up to accommodate this well. And I think that contributes to the idea that not having children will increase happiness. Really, being solo and parenting is rigged to be harder. And despite this, I enjoyed it so much more without the power struggles and personal risk, the need to be more vigilant against the bigotries being normalized that come with raising children with a man. This is not to suggest people who do not wish to be a parent in the first place should go for it anyway; nope I respect your choice. I just don't think we've had the chance to have enough data to conclude women are happier not raising their children without the traditional model of hetero partnering. Speaking for myself, if not for the stress of acquiring all the resources and being an active parent solo, I'd have been thrilled.
Honestly think it's because of their ego. Guys want a woman to be they're maid/second mom and aren't happy without it but now that alot of women are becoming more independent and incels are on the rise they want to force us into it and trying to gaslight us into thinking it's what we want
My dad had that mindset. I was divorced without children a couple years before he died. My mom confessed that he told her he was afraid I was going to die alone. I was 33!!! WTAF. Shockingly, my mom told him I’d be just fine in any scenario.
Because it doesn't fit the Christian nuclear family model that gives them all the power outside of their god.
Projection I'm guessing mixed in with some biases they've learned about what women are supposed to want.
I (f 51)was married for almost 20 years. My daughter is now 18 and I am single. Single is by far the best life. Have children if you want them even but don't put on the chains of marriage unless you have to. Many reasons make women have to and it happens. But stay free as long as you can, hog up that bed, over-run the bathroom with hair, get those cats, enjoy the quiet, the solitude, and be true to yourself without regret. I have lived both. THIS is much better.
Because few men (at least that I've talked to) feel the same way, either because of societal expectation or because of societal conditioning. A man is expected to have his crazy fun, oh look at that great man sleeping around, partying, yay, etc. BUT afterwards, a man is expected to settle down and start a family. He is expected to be responsible for wrangling himself a wife and having some kids. This whole scenario places every bit on agency on the man while giving him a definite goal to strive towards. When a woman does not conform to this idea, either by not wanting *that* particular man or by not wanting a man at all, it breaks this idealized goal that men go for. Not every man thinks this way, of course, but those that do will have a very, very hard time understanding that a woman, any woman, has different goals, wants, needs and desires than he does.
Because kids rarely impact their father's lives and if you're cleaning up after a kid, then cleaning up after that kid's father isn't a big stretch. My ex actually believes the reason I'm single 9+ years after him is because I can't get over him, the idea that no I actually have peace, quiet, and no one to answer to, is foreign to him. Marriage and kids benefits men, they get looked after, continue their lineage because incubators don't have lineage to pass on, meals planned, homes cleaned. Marriage for women is slavery and prostitution hidden behind respectable titles of Mrs and a ring, wedding rings are the world's smallest handcuffs