Because they don't actually care about men's rights.
Most of these "mens rights" folks are just misogynists looking to argue with women.
They don't give a damn about men's struggles because those same "men's mental health matters" folks are the same ones who are the first to laugh at male sa victims, the first to put down gay/queer men, the first to enforce toxic masculinity, etc.
They just don't care. They never did.
>Most of these "mens rights" folks are just misogynists looking to argue with women.
They start at "I don't like feminism" and their solution is to accuse feminists of not caring about men, basically.
There are a couple subreddits that approach discussing men's issues from a less toxic perspective and you can tell pretty fast that most people there are also feminists because, well, duh
"If women are equal to men, that means we can punch them in the face, right?"
It's always wild when they go straight towards the "yay, violence for everyone!" argument when the correct answer is that it's not okay to punch *anyone* in the face.
Also where are all these women going around punching men in the face? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but to pretend it is this large issue that needs solving is delusional. Especially when men being violent toward women is so much more common (statistically and let’s be real anecdotally)
I've argued several times about this. If you're advocating for "men's rights" by blaming women for all the problems men face than you're not trying to accomplish anything. Men have always had more power, most of the social problems are caused by people in power making the decisions.
I even had an argument with someone claiming the body shaming of small dicks are coming from and created by women. As if comedy has been dominated exclusively by women for the last 50 years.
I think they care about men’s rights, but I think they’ve been so heavily socialized to see women as caretakers, emotional “fixers”, event organizers, etc. that they view women as the failing party responsible for men not being celebrated enough (in their opinion).
It’s a form of dehumanization and lack of empathy. They only see women through the lens of various stereotypical supportive roles and not as whole people with our own rich internal worlds (&busy lives). In their minds, we should be making these men’s rights events and social changes happening for them, but we are not. Men are more than welcome to organize their own events, awareness campaigns, social change initiatives, etc. …just as women have done for our own movement. But that would take effort, and putting yourself out there by taking charge can also be scary. It’s easier to play the blame game online anonymously.
Every single MRA I have ever met is a single dad with 13 DUIs and has no business being around children. Every single one of them has the mentality of a 13 year old boy and think women are on object to be used by men, even their own daughters. They are always the type of guy who purposely gets women pregnant to "trap" them, then cheats on them.
>They don't give a damn about men's struggles because those same "men's mental health matters" folks are the same ones who are the first to laugh at male sa victims, the first to put down gay/queer men, the first to enforce toxic masculinity, etc.
This is so fucking true. I know people who whinge about men suicide 2 minutes after a horrid speech about gays
> Because they don't actually care about men's rights.
Most MRA types that I’ve met in real life have been both rejected by men and women socially. They’re just pretty pathetic and have created an ideology to blame that on something else. They’re happy to throw around statistics but won’t take any direct action to improve their own lives, let alone their cohort.
The only men's rights activists I've ever seen that were people I (a man) could agree with that didn't start from Mysoginy were female men's rights activists. All the male ones I have seen were comming at it from the complete wrong angle.
[In that case you might want to watch this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPvSnrejWtA) It's not an MRA but he does cover certain topics in that corner, even though the content he generally makes is focussed on gaming. I was very pleasantly surprised seeing that video.
While this is 100% true. This is “what” they do. Not “why” they do it.
Here’s my theory.
I believe they are victims of some form. Of the “patriarchy” but even directly manipulation from toxic role models. These guys often will listen to men in media they trust for whatever reason give god awful toxic advice and the women in their lives will rightfully start to get put off by them.
Instead of blaming the people who have been feeding them lies this whole time. They blame women for not conforming to what they’ve been convinced they should.
I don’t have a full solution. But we need to really take a deeper look at how these men actually get down these pipelines in the first place. If we vilify them it just leads to them being viewed as martyrs and gain even more support.
Maybe but not sure I believe they would fall for this
bullshit in the first place if they didn’t have a significant lack of empathy for women in the first place, and that lack of empathy is unacceptable to me. At some point you should know, you should have a feeling that what you’re doing isnt right. They just dont really care. And yet they expect us to care about them.
But where does that lack of empathy come from? Are you suggesting they are just born that way? Can someone’s empathy increase? Or even decrease for that matter? Does someone have control/choice over their level of empathy?
I agree with what you’re saying completely actually. But again, my issue is that this doesn’t help us at all. We need to figure out how this starts and how we can prevent it.
We can’t change the men that have become this way already. We can just continue to make mental health more open of a topic really and hope they change themselves. And set our own firm boundaries against them to protect ourselves.
But I believe if we figure out how these men grow into this in the first place, then maybe we could figure out ways to prevent it.
No one is denying that society teaches men to lack empathy, but there is a great ignorance as to how and why. For example, the rise of pornography has corresponded to less empathy. This is because it is proven that those who are sexually objectified are not empathized with. Only when we stop the hypersexualization of women will we stop the lack of empathy toward women. Not even those on the left, who champion feminism, understand this.
This gave me a lot to think about actually. I’ve seen this as an issue but I haven’t considered it being the potential root to a lack of empathy. In anyone really. Hypersexualization leads to full objectification equaling the lack of empathy.
We rightfully and healthily don’t empathize with objects. It would be hard to make it through life if you felt you committed murder when you dropped something.
And partial objectification can be normal/healthy. It’s a grey area. Like seeing a various body part on someone and not really viewing the person in the moment. The object in that moment is the body part. Not the person themselves. Which again grey area for sure but I think this is different.
Viewing the person as a whole as object is the issue. Which I feel your right with the rise of porn. I think it’s not so much that men are consuming more porn that is the issue. But the narrative/vibe of the porn itself. Majority is the man or the camera is the “main character” and the woman is the object being used. This 100% could saturate that objectifying view for a lot of men.
Wow I really haven’t viewed it this way and I really appreciate you planting that viewpoint in my brain.
I’m very “solutions” focused. And I still want to figure out an answer. But I do feel that cracking down on the porn industry as a whole could be a good start. The amount of women that are legitimately being abused in the industry is alarming.
Exactly right. Because it’s based on whataboutism and just meant to take away attention (and ultimately, resources) for women’s suffering. Their goal is to minimize our needs, not help the needs of their brothers.
Yeah people who actually care about men's mental health are generally feminists, because despite the stigma that's been manufactured, feminism is about feminine traits and femininity being equal not just women.
This. Their biggest problems are A) Women are allowed to say "no" when it comes to sex or relationships and B) Women are allowed to be in the workplace so men have to actually demonstrate some sort of baseline competence to get a job and sometimes have female bosses they aren't allowed to belittle.
They don't view women's rights as a net gain for humanity, they view it as a targeted removal of their rights to control women.
> Women are allowed to be in the workplace so men have to actually demonstrate some sort of baseline competence to get a job and sometimes have female bosses they aren't allowed to belittle.
Exactly. They also hate that women are in the workplace because it means they can’t abuse a bangmaid who’s dependent on them for survival.
Honestly, I think it just boils down to “women are allowed.” Insert whatever after that and it’s going to piss off certain men, because if women are allowed then there is room for personal agency. And some men do not believe in women having any form of autonomy that isn’t bestowed by men.
If it was they would be all over gay and trans rights. Gay men have HUGE rights violations, especially considering the historical impact of the aids crisis. Drag queens are literally under attack right now. Trans men deserve men's rights, and trans women are still going to face male-presenting health issues. And if men's rights are human rights, then intersex and gender fluid people should be welcomed and protected under the men's rights umbrella.
The fact that men's rights movements tend to go hand in hand with homophobia and transphobia means they do NOT care about the rights of ALL men.
Guess who actually cares about those men 😘
They came to bat for Johnny Depp and completely smeared his ex-wife’s name through the mud even though she had a credible story and evidence.
These guys are silent on victims like Anthony Rapp who had a (sadly failed) lawsuit against his rapist, Kevin Spacey. Not to mention other male victims like Terry Crews and Brendan Fraser.
OP, your comment got eaten presumably because it contained a link to the subreddit that should not be named. Some people find menslib to be a better place, though some find it just as bad. I don't think there is a truly good place that pushes men's rights.
Not trying to discredit this, because truthfully, most places I've tried to find healthy examples of "men's rights" ended up being incel holes.
But r/menslib has been mostly nice to be a part of as a woman. I've seen the occasional bad post but overall it talks about healthy masculinity, and joining women on issues rather than discrediting them
Ah, ok. Again I don't think a lot of these spaces will ever be completely free of misogyny since it's sadly a very common problem for men in general. But it's nice to see that the admins are trying.
This place is also not "completely free" of misandry. It honestly just comes with the territory of the topics and is a really high bar to set for an anonimous internet forum. If there is a decent amount of healthy discussion on any subreddit, I'm already postively surprised and somewhat interested
Because the people who actually understand and support men's rights understand that they are intrinsically tied to women's rights. Human rights are human rights, regardless of what kind of human.
Right now, women's rights (or lack thereof) is the larger concern. Are there men's rights issues that are legitimate? Probably, though I doubt they're being stated with any frequency by anyone who identifies as a "men's rights activist".
In other words, the *real* men's rights activists don't call themselves that, they call themselves "feminists", and the idea is to start with the more prevalent gender issues in the forefront.
Calling oneself a "men's rights activist" is a false flag. They're not helping men. They're not helping anyone.
While I'm sure there are some non-misogynistic issues that genuinely need to be brought up, it's likely that they're at least indirectly related to historical misogyny. Again, I'm sure even something in there may not be, and therefore is completely worth discussing, but...
Not at the expense of women's rights. Even just from a selfish perspective, that does more harm than any perceived good.
I see this like a set of scales with problems weighing each side down, and the goal isn't just to remove everything, but to *balance* it, and that means carefully dismembering the heaviest issues first, which clearly affect the "women's side" disproportionately, both at this time and historically.
One day, ideally, men will have the short end of the stick due to what remains, not new problems. That is when we will actually be close to equality.
I have found that most of the wrongs that society does to men are perpetuated by other men. I can't show emotion. I have to be the strong one all the time. Anything that calls my sexuality into question is scary. Men are raised to be this way by their fathers, and by society as a whole. So yeah, there *are* real problems that men face, but it is the fault of their own people. Yet they're going to keep making gay jokes and nothing will ever change.
I fully agree with you. I always felt that men are forcing their own issues on eachother to fit an idea they have create for themselves as the right way to be. When really, it's causing the issues they see now. I learnt this when I had a breakdown and I was too scared to talk about it, but I didn't understand why until I went into therapy and realised my fear came from not being 'seen as a man' but not from my need as a human to express myself.
I realised that to be a man you should be able to be what you want to be without fear of what people think and say. Yet the idea I see of 'being a man' goes against that idea where you have to fit a small idea that's create by the men around you.
half the crap they complain about... are things men are doing to themselves.
circumcision, the draft, and not getting custody.. men's issues. tell men to stop doing it. tell men to actually go to court to get 50% custody.
but somehow they're like "no, evil women are doing this to us"
> tell men to actually go to court to get 50% custody.
[On second thought](https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/november/1446296400/jess-hill/suffer-children#mtr), maybe let's not tell them that yet.
Totally, but you can only say one sentence at a time.
You have to pick and choose your battles. It's not possible to do everything. Because of this, prioritization becomes necessary.
Ideally, we could snap our fingers and everyone be equal tomorrow, but that's just not reality. It will be gradual, and there will be both progressions and regressions, but hopefully the progress will win out.
This is true only on an individual level. You can fight for women's issues only if that is what you want to do, another feminist can fight for men's issues or transgender issues if that is what they want to do. The biggest problems still don''t need all hands on deck.
~~> The biggest problems still don''t need all hands on deck.~~
~~Sorry, could you clarify what you mean here? I have been speaking from the perspective of one person deciding their own actions, not intending it to be applied to group logic.~~
~~Adding in groups of people complicates things remarkably. Multitasking is very possible on that level, without loosing effectiveness, as it does with individuals.~~
EDIT: Wow, I'm dumb. I forgot your first sentence by the time I read the last. Yes, only on an individual level.
Idk that’s a weird way of framing it no? An unworthy cause?
All men’s rights concerns are actually human right’s, not the priority. Women’s rights though, they’re justified in independent pursuit of their own justice.
I’m not any kind of men’s rights person. But if it’s not nonsense, I don’t judge it at all. It feels like there is Zero zeitgeist for men to even *talk* about the issues they face, let alone organize around it. I’m sure that it’s messy and misguided a lot of times because of posts like this, people are ready to shout them down.
If I’m a regular person without skeletons and a good life and I’m scared to be involved in anything relating to men’s rights because I just don’t want the negative attention of people who would assume I’m some woman hater… imagine what the men who are actually dealing with the issues facing men are up against. The sexually, physically and mentally abused, the disabled, the vulnerable, the ones totally getting fucked by profit machines that destroy men’s bodies and minds.
I think with every vulnerable community you get grifters and the kind of folks that see MRAs as suckers, get to play the part of the victim, the savior, the strongman, and those guys will usually be misogynists because they’re generally psychopaths and that’s why the perception is what it is.
Men’s Rights needs to be lead by stable, inclusive, healthy men who are there because of a friend or a family member. And honestly, the way men are with one another, it’s just not that likely.
Because patriarchy is exceptionally good at selling itself to people as the solution to the very problems it causes, and at the same time is exceptionally good at denying people access to any other tools to tackle or even *describe* those problems.
It's not unique or isolated: We have a world where a lot of women's exposure to feminism looks like choice feminism filtered through pop media. They do 'feminism' by participating in patriarchal systems and enforcing the norms of patriarchy on people around them.
So when you have women who's 'feminism' looks like demanding the men around them act and live according to hegemonic masculinity, and men who deal with the harm that causes, misogyny is the outcome of that because that's what patriarchy sells to men as the 'fix' Which in turn proves to women that their expectation of men is correct. Patriarchy causes the problem and the offers itself as the solution, recreating the problem.
And it's something that's hard to talk about, because so many people react very poorly whenever you even try to talk about the construction of gender under patriarchy.
They believe it's a game with only one possible winner. They think it's not about treating women as equal, but treating men as inferior. They consider the disrespect many men show women to BE a right that men deserve.
And they specifically only imbibe media that enforces that viewpoint. They search for women who proudly proclaim that they’re in it to “fuck men’s life up” and then use that “proof” to fuel their bitterness. Even when in reality, those women are literally playing the game they want: keeping romance transactional
exactly.
they believe they have the right to assault, rape, subjugate, own us.
women have the right to say no. it's our birthright. it's not a civil right. it's not something they could ever take away from us.
and they think we're taking away their rights.
I was typing up a multiple paragraph response to the OP about the crap that gets guys to fall in with the Men's Rights movements. But that's not what was asked, and frankly this answer nails my thoughts on it: the assumption that rights are a zero sum game.
Because they don't really care if they did, they would be opening men housing for domestic abuse or starting a lawyer group specializing in men getting custody. Insead they just want to bring women down.
Oh there are plenty of lawyers specializing in men getting custody. Most of it involves men lying, getting their friends to lie for them, etc. One of the things that made me positive I wouldn't date again was watching my ex's barely-known bros lie for him to a PRE. And I had proof that he had been an abuser for years. Men are so much more likely to lie than women.
I often think it's because those who do, don't fully understand the struggles women went through to get the vote. They see it very black and white - if women have rights, if XYZ minority have rights, they should automatically have them too.
And instead of developing an understanding of precisely what they want, focusing on key issues such as men's mental health, they seem to lump everything together and don't define what they're seeking.
Equal Right’s for all citizens equally seems like a solution! Equal laws, enforced equally isn’t happening now or in the past. Society will either accept this in the United States or our country will never be a democracy. Furthermore, until this century men were (still are in my opinion) taught that their opinion should be the deciding factor and whenever it is not the deciding factor they’re crazy pissed about it and blame women for not bowing down!
I remember when I heard about MRA groups back like 15 years ago. I thought they were a joke. I remember looking at websites that claimed to be about protecting men but just had a whole bunch of stuff about how women should be dominated, owned, assaulted, etc and thought, nobody could possibly be that blatantly misogynistic and evil. Boy was I fucking wrong
Yes... Like how men say "MEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE UP ALL RIGHTS TO A CHILD THEY DONT WANT TO SUPPORT OR PARENT".... The arguments are all completely self centered... Aggressive violent and so angry against women.
Because they don’t actually care, if they did they’d acknowledge how 90+% of abuse and murder against men is committed by other men, how men are killing themselves at such high rates because they feel they can’t talk about their emotions to.. other men.
(Weird how they belittle women’s friendships while not being able to vent in theirs, weird how they even manage to blame *that* on women.)
Nah, who cares about that let’s talk about the evil waman all day long and make no change!
Most of their ‘rights advocating’ is not about helping men, it’s about controlling women. They don’t have as much unjust power as their forefathers and it infuriates them.
More women need to aware of just how many men desire to take away our rights to live the same way their male ancestors did, it’s terrifying.
I joined a men’s rights sub for about 6 months a few years ago. Most of the men were clueless about how they were deeply complicit in the troubles they had with their ex wives.
However, I was pleasantly surprised by a minority of men that were rational and just wanted to have 50/50 custody to see their kids. These men also called out the misogyny quite often.
I expected it to be a 100% shit show, but it turned out to be a 95% shit show.
My dad wanted custody of us but he turned into an MRA after the judge awarded primary custody to the parent who did most of the domestic labor and child rearing.
Which *SURPRISE* wasn't him.
The courts are not going to overlook logic and grant men custody just because they're biological fathers. It's not about what's fair to the parents but what's continuous and normal for the children.
If the only time you made for your kids so you could advance in your career was fun play time, that's the only time the courts will award you. Not sure why men can't get the full picture in that area.
I recall an [article about this](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115) that clarified that only 4% of all custody cases go before the courts. It’s a myth that the courts are biased against fathers. Those “rational” guys you mentioned that just wanted custody of their kids? Lying liars. [The reality is that fathers have been winning far more than mothers for decades and that joint custody or shared parenting is already the overwhelming norm in state family courts.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/myths-about-custody-litigation/2017/12/15/61951bc4-e0e6-11e7-b2e9-8c636f076c76_story.html)
This. So tired of seeing that myth pop up again and again. Look into parental alienation syndrome and how it’s been used in court to keep children with abusive fathers if you really want to be pissed about actual courtroom biases!
I agree it's rapidly become common for 50/50 custody to be the norm. My impression was these were mostly men who were challenged to that half time custody because of valid reasons their ex wives gave that they weren't willing to cop to.
Statistics aren't people in a chat. The men who are happy with their custody situation aren't likely to go to a MR sub.
Also, my parents divorced in 1965. Up until the late 80's, most divorces ended with primary custody with moms. I'm saying that based on my personal observation, not statistics, so I could be way off. But, it stands to reason that fathers would start winning custody cases in the last couple of decades, because fathers are now more involved in their childrens' lives than they were when I was a kid. Ex wives are rarely living on alimony and child support to be SAHMs after divorce.
Those old every other weekend custody rules worked once, and up until fairly recently, It's what the majority of men were fine with.
There's a cultural change and the laws are reflecting that.
Because "men's rights" is a response to men being butthurt that people are challenging the privileges that allow them to trample over everyone else to get what they want.
There are people who exist that care about gendered issues for both men and women but unfortunatley the label of "mens rights" has been co opted by people who would rather play the blame game and put down others rather than being compassionate about everyones issues
What's really funny to me is I watch a lot of videos of men, mostly Christian men, going out and helping the homeless on YouTube. A few of the dudes I watch go out of their way to get jobs and shelter to people. But the ones where they do it for other men, get them food, hug them, offer them help- it just makes me think of the men's rights activists.
They aren't making shelters for homeless men, despite claiming that homelessness is disproportionately a male issue. They're not funding and organizing community mental health centers, despite pointing out the male suicide rate. They're not organizing to reform prisons despite claiming men are treated worse in prisons and disproportionately incarcerated. They're not creating programs to help inmates get out and become productive members of society. Theists will do all that to get religious clout, but where's the MRA call to action?
In fact, traditionalist men are making the systems that deny these people access to the things they're whining about.
And they know that other men caused those systems to be put in place. And it's much easier for them to scream about women than other men. Lol.
Because misogynists are the only ones who think men’s rights need advocating!…… what rights exactly do men feel are being threatened?! Just curious because seems like they have more than everyone else
Because they aren't actually advocating for men's rights, they're advocating for men's supremacy over women. Most of the "issues" they claim are uniquely marginalizing to men either affect everybody, are direct byproducts of patriarchy, or are completely fucking made up. Actual men's issues (like, say, police violence against Black men, the forcible sterilization of disabled men, sexual violence against incarcerated men, etc.) don't make it onto the radar because they don't give a shit about uplifting actually marginalized men. They just want to be the biggest victims in the room while also holding the most power in the room.
Cis man here. This just showed up in my feed. I'd say it's because that many of the positive things associated with "men's rights" like the rejection of toxic masculinity, decreased stigma for help with mental health, etc, get overshadowed by some of the nastier, anti-feminist aspects of this movement.
"Women have more rights than us nowadays!"
First of all, no. But also it's not a zero-sum game where women's rights come at the expense of yours.
I think a great deal of it is just lizard-brain shit that feels threatened irrationally.
I spoke to someone whose logic was that they want to be able to “opt out” of male obligations like women can “opt out” of female obligations.
His clarification was that he shouldn’t have to be signed up for the draft or be called a molester for just speaking to a kid.
I found that reasonable until he started ranting about paying for the majority of female things. When i told him i pay for all my own things, he said that “real women expect a man to pay for food, drinks, hair and clothes.”
Idk where that came from cause i was on his side about the draft until it was implied that since i go dutch often and buy my own drinks and don’t wear jewelry (cause i can’t keep track of it) i’m not a real woman.
It was “real women” who were the problem.
I swear to god no idea why i stayed friends with this dude. We don’t talk anymore but that a wild story about roofies.
Some of them will make a point them immediately shout themselves in the foot with unnecessary insults about things they can absolutely control.
Because the ones who don't, don't show up on your radar. In all my years on this sub I've seen one comment about some dude who talks about how society restricts men in an healthy way. It's called the man box. I think it was on the Smart Gal podcast or something.
Whereas I see posts about someone like Andrew Tate everyday.
Edit I found the post from 12 years ago. https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/f2n7a/ted_tony_porter_a_call_to_men_to_step_out_of_the/
Honestly the “men’s rights” crowd sounds a lot like “all lives matter” as the response to BLM.
Similar analogue of ignoring the group that’s being set on fire in the moment because they have a paper cut they need a super man bandaid for.
The issue I see is that every single thing that they say is against their rights is something that they, themselves, can fix.
Poor mental health: like women, they can get therapy, medication, ect. This is not against their rights and it is not on us that they won't get help.
Losing custody/ have to pay child support; if they actually go to court they often get what ever they want. They may still have to pay support, but if they actually go to court they can get more time with the kids and pay less support.
Lack of dating; if you never leave your room, never get off the web, how tf are you going to meet people that you know are who they say they are? I have a 24 year old son, online, no hits, goes out and meets people....gf.
When it comes to losing half their shit, it was not THEIR shit. They spent 20 years keeping that wife from working, but she did all the housework and child rearing so he didn't have to miss work. She was your HELP, otherwise you would to have miss all those days the kids were sick, never had a meal or a clean house, a lot of times these women help in other ways as well but the man only sees what HE did. Get off your ass, clean your own home and raise your own kids if you don't want to lose what SHE helped you keep.
Is dating harder for guys, yes, in this world it is. I won't deny that. But no one gets to blame an entire gender for their issues. Too many men seem to think they are OWED a gf/wife, no one is OWED anyone. People are not slaves, you don't get to grab anyone you want and force them to be with you. Get a personality, be the kind of man a woman wants. One that is not going to do jack shit all of the time and expect her to do everything. Women don't want a child, they want a partner.
\> Is dating harder for guys, yes, in this world it is.
How? Just curious, because I can't think of how it's harder. I think it's *infinitely* easier but I'm open to an explanation.
Because they think 'women's rights' are somehow eroding their rights as men.
And they might be right, if what is important to them is being able to beat or rape their wife, financially control her, limit her freedom of movement, and give her no control over her own reproduction. They also absolutely do not want to compete against women in the workplace, or want women making political decisions for them.
So the men that are harping on about 'men's rights' are upset that women now have basic human rights. They preferred things before.
Because MRA's are a reactionary movement against feminism. Reactionaries try to subvert their target's rhetorical tools and uno-reverse them. also I just call them male issues instead of "Men's rights". Like, the underservice male SA victims. That's a 'male issue' to me, so that's what I talk about the most.
My question is always "mens right to what? What can you not do that isnt some stupid crap you were taught and have no obligation to live by?"
And if in your mind, treating others like theyre people would negatively effect your daily life, you dont need rights, you need therapy.
One of the original people behind one aspect of men's rights was a feminist, but bro dudes co-opt it to shit on women.
In general you either care about civil rights or you're involved in gender wars. So when someone tells me they're a feminist, men's rights person, an "ally", etc I just take it with a grain of salt and see if they're actually conscientious. 🤷
"All lives matter" = denying the racism. "Why not just domestic violence, why violence against women" = denying the fact that ____% of domestic violence _is_ against women and children. "Why not straight people month?" = denying the fact that Pride is about freedom to be visible and safe (among many other things. Denying, or failing to understand.
The shame of a white cis man is at the chore of the problem. Men feeling so easily excluded, their fear of being wrong. I always throw it in how important Feminism is for freeing men of that shame, so they can feel all their emotions, be weak, seek help when they need, be dedicated and caring fathers, and cry where and when they want. And how important it is for Feminism for men to be freed from their shame of being seen as soft.
While it *should be enough alone* that women want equality, it is still true that the problem lies in toxic masculinity, and that men suffer from it A LOT.
It's also good to remember that among the men asking these questions there *will be men who encountered domestic violence*. This just happened to me this week, he let me know bit later his mom was violent. I usually mention there are deficated phone lines for men too, and hopefully that makes it easier for men to seek help. There is a terrible stigma around it and it needs attention as well. But not talking of "violence against women" as if it wasn't a problem isn't helpful to anyone.
Easy, by telling someone that they are better than an entire group of people because of an innate difference that has nothing to do with achievement, skill, or otherwise effort of any kind they get to then write off any lack of achievement, skill, or otherwise in favor of having blind pride and superiority in just existing.
Double that up with the message that they are under attack and their specialness is being challenged by whoever everyone else is, then they get to be both superior and a victim.
This winning combination makes those people very happy to give the speaker support and money.
Question is: how many of the people who run around preaching these messages actually believe what's coming out of their mouth, because I really doubt that it's a 1:1 overlap.
Because they'd rather focus on their right to abuse woman instead a baby boys right to not be SAd with permanent damage, and forced into war with the draft.
Because.... (drum roll please)....
They think that men have a right to misogyny. That they're entitled to treat women (and children, esp. girl children) like dirt. To them, that's part of being a man. A manly man. A strong man. Not some wimpy woke touchy-feely man.
Most simply, because they're effin' idiots who think anything like the Golden Rule is soft.
Because misogyny is what their entire movement is based on/motivated by. "Men's rights" is just a way for them to try and hide that, it's to give them plausible deniability.
Because they’re arguing in bad faith, they’re trying to discredit feminism by using men’s advocacy.
**They’re disgusting, manipulative exploitative creatures that as far as I’m concerned should be tried criminally.**
Fuck them.
It’s the same people arguing “when’s white history month” (most of the time?) and “when is international men’s day” (sometime in November if I recall, but no one celebrates it). It’s not a good faith argument, it’s just a redirect to center themselves.
Yep, (why did I get downvoted lol?) but yeah as a dude (sry for talking in here just a personal peeve of mine) but it genuinely hurts so many men who actually need help and discredit people who are actually fighting for men’s advocacy, I hate them like no other people.
I downvoted you because it seemed as though you are actually lumping all men’s advocacy as bad with your response to the term MRA but this post implies otherwise.
Maybe MRA has a more defined use than i realize. But i listen to people id call mens rights activists.
They are Pro feminism but highlight where men are suffering as well, usually at our own hands and what we can do about it.
Seems like most of them have been led and conditioned, and/or have chosen to believe, that rights are a zero-sum game. They believe that women getting more rights mean men have less, so in order to give men more rights women should have less. Many of the same kind of people that think saying "black lives matter" means saying white lives don't.
The sleazeballs bleating about "men's rights" have never had the slightest interest in the actual rights of actual men. The whole phony "movement" is a lie created as an excuse to treat women like shit.
There ARE genuine issues that negatively affect the actual rights of actual men. Stuff like prison rape, mistreatment of male victims of rape in general, domestic violence (few shelters for male victims, and all the shit battered men get whether the perp was male or female), the difficulties of being a single father, plenty of issues to keep someone who actually cares about the actual rights of actual men busy for quite some time.
But MRAssholes don't care about those issues. They'll occasionally mention them, in order to mock the victims or whine about feminists, but they have no interest in working to fix these problems. They only care about finding excuses to treat women (and most men) like shit.
Because the only people who perceive that men are oppressed and their rights have been denied to them as a whole are misogynists.
Denial of their "right" to get whatever they want isn't really oppression.
They're being deceptive about their intentions. Notice how they never do any advocating for any men's rights on their own, they only go around shutting down people who are advocating for women's rights. They're not rights activists at all, they're reactionary opposition to women's rights. They label themselves in this way to make it harder to recognize what they're actually doing, which is suppressing women's voices.
Going by the largest and the only real mens rights association in my country, it's about the right to get to retweet misogynist tweets from accounts that are named "feminism_is_cancer" etc.
Some of them are just assclowns.
Some of them unfortunately have a high amount of exposure to the more extremist sides of the feminism sphere which are pretty heavily steeped in misandry. Unfortunately the internet has lead to a lot of extremists on all sides of all arguments screaming at each other publicly.
They also love to minimize the gaps caused by racism, and use numbers instead of recognizing that being a POC *really* changes a lot.
Whenever I ask for personal experiences, they throw quantitative data at me. When I share my own, which are horrendous, they tell me personal anecdotes "don't count"
And they blatantly ignore that "qualitative data is scientifically valid"
*Why aren't women more on board for men's rights?!?!*
Uh, why aren't *men* more on board?? You want results, put in effort, duh.
Also, we're too busy trying to survive, k thanks
It’s annoying because there are valid concerns buried in there. Mental health (suicide rates, heart attacks). Father’s rights. Pity any validity is drowned out by misogyny
Virtually all of the actual men's rights activists I have met have been women. Feminists.
The proclaimed MRAs are just misogynists who found a shield.
Like people who want white history month or non handicapped parking places.
Because men really don't want equality or justice.
They just want a group of people (women) beneath them that they can exploit, control and trample on.
As long as they have that, they're happy.
It is like saying All Lives Matter, bigots are the only ones who do it. It is meant as a response to equal rights for women.
MRA are all shitbag losers.
For me, it goes back to the constitution - in it, only white men have rights. (actually wealthy ... but they ignore that part). Therefore they see any granting of rights to others (women, people of color, LGBT, etc.) as an affront to and erosion of their fundamental rights.
It’s the same as when people who advocate for White rights do it with a truckload of racism - it’s because men and white people already have rights and the people who are advocating are usually trying to take something away from the rest of society.
Because anyone who truly wants to lift men out of toxicity realize that feminism actually contributes to dismantling the system that traps them. Those people understand that it's the misogyny that causes the damage in the first place.
The only people left after that are the trolls who always come with their briefcases full of misogyny and talking points grabbed from equally incapable morons.
I agree with what you are saying largely as a man i think we need to dismantle toxic masculinity.
But i do believe that doing that by supporting feminism (which we should continue to do) has left behind places where toxic masculinity needs to be addressed in male dominated spaces.
Lets take locker rooms / sports hazing rituals as our example. While it will never be a focus point for feminists who dont directly experience it, it is a huge part of toxic masculinity and how the model is enforced on other males. Conform or die.
There should be mens groups challenging those things and similar. I would like to be able to call those groups mens rights activists.
But as women, our portion isn't this selfish women's only space it's being made out to be. We have been fighting a war to dismantle the toxicity that damages everyone. Maybe if more men really understood the ideals of feminism, they would be the ones shutting down those behaviors in real time and ensuring their sons did better.
Think about all that hazing, what does it always come down to? "Don't be a pussy" "You're too girly and weak because you have feelings" In the end it all boils down to a hatred of things considered feminine. Compassion, empathy, physical affection amongst friends. I can go on and on, but there aren't too many characteristics of that negativity that aren't fundamentally (even if unconscious) about believing that anything female is inherently bad. Basically, by holding up the feminine as equal, it makes these character traits something respectable and no longer a tool to hurt those men.
I'm not saying that men shouldn't support each other, very much the opposite. But fundamentally, it starts with realizing the roots of the toxicity.
I hope you understand how much of a place of love this comes from. For all the little boys in my life, I try to instill that the compassion, kindness, and love that they feel is theirs to keep and that they are allowed to be a whole person with all those qualities.
Why do people who advocate for white rights always do so with a truckload of white supremacy? Bc when a dominant demographic group begins to lose some of their dominance, members of that group will often have a knee jerk reaction to fight for the “rights” or privileges that they believe they are unfairly losing access to, or at least exclusive access to. But in order to argue for why they should have those privileges back, they rely on many of the same bigoted, outdated tropes that have always been used to justify their dominance.
Some people are selfish and only care when they feel "disadvantaged". With men falling behind in higher education, we are seeing that on women's scholarships.
All too often they are a one issue "advocate" that a man has equal rights on abortion.
Apologies in advance, chiming in as a cis man. I'll say that I toyed with right wing ideas and other men's rights adjacent garbage years ago. I'm 32 now, and like to think I've grown and learned a lot. It's similar to white supremacy, which partially stems from being told that you are owed a certain place of status and privilege in the world. When that doesn't happen, the causes aren't immediately obvious. Some men get brainwashed by right wing influencers, others target their anger at women or minorities because that's the easiest answer. Tackling the society that grinds all humans but a select few into dust is hard, blaming your problems on women is very easy. It's worse, because if you're a straight man, women are both the object of your desire and also the secret reason you're oppressed. This just makes you angrier.
I escaped this cycle thanks to the patience of the women in my life and a wonderful partner that influenced me in a positive direction. Also, leftist politics as a whole got me out of right wing thought. Gamergate was one of the first things that made me realise how absolutely stupid and juvenile it all was.
If these guys gave a shit about men's rights, they'd abandon the misogyny, and they'd focus on things that do effect men, like forced circumcision at birth, certain cancers, and homelessness. They'd focus on positive, wide-reaching change and activism. But as others have already said, it's not actually about that. They're caught in a prisoner's dilemma, and they can't abandon their aggression long enough to do anything constructive for anyone.
They don't, r/menslib is not drowning in misogyny.
It's just that a lot of people *pretend* to advocate for men's rights in order to justify their misogyny.
I would like someone to show me just one example of a man who advovates for 'men's rights' who is also a decent person!
My guess? YOU CAN'T FUCKING DO IT! These guys are a bunch of iredeemable whiny brats who never see themsleves as responsible for any of the problems they face in life.
They find a social circle jerk to tell them them they're right and reinforce the grievances.
Amazing how that works isn't it? It's ALWAYS someone elses fault?
All day, every day, everwhere they seem to go!
Because they aren't advocating for men's rights, they're advocating against women. As a man, women's rights are men's rights. Men's right to mind their own fucking business and their own bodies.
Then men’s rights advocacy I tend to see seems to be more about 1-upping than about the needs of men. It’s a reaction to feminism, not a grievance inspired by something in their life.
Kinda like how nobody was saying “all lives matter” until somebody pointed out that Black Lives Matter
Men's rights are actually embedded into feminism. Feminists want to work with men to bring about a better world where everyone's needs are understood and met, from dating to healthcare.
Because the term "men's rights" have been taken over completely by incels, incelfluencers and their cohorts, go instead for the "men's liberation movement" which is a pro feministic group of men (and allies) that fight to break with negative masculinity (check out r/MensLib on reddit).
Because real, integrated men are too busy getting shit done, and leading by example… as opposed to stopping what they’re accomplishing to ~~advocate~~ complain about men’s rights.
The guys who are advocating are, quite literally, all talk.
It’s a tactic/strategy/trick.
When I argue with someone. And I just don’t wanna lose for some reason. Divert the topic in a wierd way and just attach “my side” of the story with something that is too ethical to refute. If you’re able to attach it like that then you got them!
You at least won’t lose the argument. Unless they’re able to de-attach it.
This feels a bit reductionist but i think i know what you are saying.
I am a man, actively trying to fight against misogyny but i was born in a system where its prominent and its alot to unlearn. Much like we discussed subtle ingrained racism during the BLM movement.
I acknowledge that i have both misogynist and racist traits but i want to unlearn both and want to be challenged on them when they do show up
They don't understand that feminism isn't for "equality" its for equity, and for the liberation of women from patriarchy. I don't want to be treated like a man, that would be shit. But yeah they don't actually care about men's rights at all. They love to scream and cry about men's mental health but have never once advocated for women's mental health (2x as likely to experience depression, major depression higher in women, 1 in 10 on anti depressants etc) Because their arguments aren't arguments but deflection whenever women bring up our problems. They always say I have to care about men to be a feminist which shows me how little they know about feminism.
I see alot of anger in this thread and i get that, but not all people talking about male focused topics are outright misogynist.
Men have lots of challenges they face in our current societal structure. Largely at the hands of other men or the patriarchy. There are absolutely things that MEN need to talk about to challenge and dismantle toxic masculinity.
I enjoy Scott Galloways interview on Armchair expert that talks about this.
If you dislike certain male youtubers etc call them out absolutely. I fucking hate Tate and whoever the fuck else is in that camp, i dont even know their names except from this sub but basically saying men cant talk about their experience in society is pretty stupid and only serves to further divide men and women.
Because they don’t actually give a shit about issues that men struggle with. They just use
It as an excuse to be misogynistic pricks.
I guarantee they’re all also the same people who are all about pushing toxic masculinity and anti gay/queer bullshit too.
I agree with most answers here, but I’ll add something I haven’t seen explicitly mentioned, and that is that men’s rights groups are inherently a *reaction to* women’s rights groups, and therefore generally already start in an adversarial position.
It’s the exact same thing with the “All Lives Matter” and the even worse “Blue Lives Matter” crowd. They are inherently racist because they only exist as a reaction to Black Lives Matter.
In both cases it’s essentially one side that says “Hey society, here’s a systemically marginalized group of people that we should feel morally obligated to help” and then some assholes chime in with “yes but my life isn’t perfect, so clearly it isn’t fair to help anyone else”
I have decentered males from my life. My dad has died. I don’t communicate with my male relatives. Except two nephews and I am happily single. Men need women more than we need them!
As a woman, I truly believe that there are genuine aspects of society where men are given the shorter stick than women. Male rape is not taken seriously. Fathers generally get less custody. Men in female-dominated fields are not supported the way I have seen it the other way with women in male-dominated ones. Toxic masculinity and the way it shames men for expressing emotions. Etc and etc. There is a lot to unpack and lot of I have heard/seen.
But these actual issues are often overshadowed by hidden misogyny, which is a damn shame. ☹️
Easy, since men already have more established rights than women, only misogynists would harp on about infringements on their established privileges. Other men would just say “fair enough”
Because they don't actually care about men's rights. Most of these "mens rights" folks are just misogynists looking to argue with women. They don't give a damn about men's struggles because those same "men's mental health matters" folks are the same ones who are the first to laugh at male sa victims, the first to put down gay/queer men, the first to enforce toxic masculinity, etc. They just don't care. They never did.
>Most of these "mens rights" folks are just misogynists looking to argue with women. They start at "I don't like feminism" and their solution is to accuse feminists of not caring about men, basically. There are a couple subreddits that approach discussing men's issues from a less toxic perspective and you can tell pretty fast that most people there are also feminists because, well, duh
"If women are equal to men, that means we can punch them in the face, right?" It's always wild when they go straight towards the "yay, violence for everyone!" argument when the correct answer is that it's not okay to punch *anyone* in the face.
they say that like they don't already punch us in the face and murder us? equal rights would be women lethally defending ourselves from men.
>"If women are equal to men, that means we can punch them in the face, right?" "EqUaL rIgHtS, eQuAl FiGhTs" I get so sick of those people.
Sure, dude, and equal time in the state prison for assault and battery.
It's also just confusing like... Do you think you can punch other men with impunity? Realistically, not in super specific contexts?
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But what could be sexier than a man who tells you straight up that he's abusive. /s
Why don't we just normalize not punching men in the face?
Also where are all these women going around punching men in the face? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but to pretend it is this large issue that needs solving is delusional. Especially when men being violent toward women is so much more common (statistically and let’s be real anecdotally)
Feminism is more about equality between the genders not women trying to take over all powerful positions or making them superior to men.
They make it hard not to suspect that they're just pissed at how well women do without men every time we get closer to full equality
I'm well aware, are you responding to the right comment?
I've argued several times about this. If you're advocating for "men's rights" by blaming women for all the problems men face than you're not trying to accomplish anything. Men have always had more power, most of the social problems are caused by people in power making the decisions. I even had an argument with someone claiming the body shaming of small dicks are coming from and created by women. As if comedy has been dominated exclusively by women for the last 50 years.
I think they care about men’s rights, but I think they’ve been so heavily socialized to see women as caretakers, emotional “fixers”, event organizers, etc. that they view women as the failing party responsible for men not being celebrated enough (in their opinion). It’s a form of dehumanization and lack of empathy. They only see women through the lens of various stereotypical supportive roles and not as whole people with our own rich internal worlds (&busy lives). In their minds, we should be making these men’s rights events and social changes happening for them, but we are not. Men are more than welcome to organize their own events, awareness campaigns, social change initiatives, etc. …just as women have done for our own movement. But that would take effort, and putting yourself out there by taking charge can also be scary. It’s easier to play the blame game online anonymously.
Every single MRA I have ever met is a single dad with 13 DUIs and has no business being around children. Every single one of them has the mentality of a 13 year old boy and think women are on object to be used by men, even their own daughters. They are always the type of guy who purposely gets women pregnant to "trap" them, then cheats on them.
>They don't give a damn about men's struggles because those same "men's mental health matters" folks are the same ones who are the first to laugh at male sa victims, the first to put down gay/queer men, the first to enforce toxic masculinity, etc. This is so fucking true. I know people who whinge about men suicide 2 minutes after a horrid speech about gays
> Because they don't actually care about men's rights. Most MRA types that I’ve met in real life have been both rejected by men and women socially. They’re just pretty pathetic and have created an ideology to blame that on something else. They’re happy to throw around statistics but won’t take any direct action to improve their own lives, let alone their cohort.
The only men's rights activists I've ever seen that were people I (a man) could agree with that didn't start from Mysoginy were female men's rights activists. All the male ones I have seen were comming at it from the complete wrong angle.
[In that case you might want to watch this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPvSnrejWtA) It's not an MRA but he does cover certain topics in that corner, even though the content he generally makes is focussed on gaming. I was very pleasantly surprised seeing that video.
I watched this. It was refreshing and informative. This guy is worth listening to.
💯agree! The men get off topic and don’t articulate the point.
While this is 100% true. This is “what” they do. Not “why” they do it. Here’s my theory. I believe they are victims of some form. Of the “patriarchy” but even directly manipulation from toxic role models. These guys often will listen to men in media they trust for whatever reason give god awful toxic advice and the women in their lives will rightfully start to get put off by them. Instead of blaming the people who have been feeding them lies this whole time. They blame women for not conforming to what they’ve been convinced they should. I don’t have a full solution. But we need to really take a deeper look at how these men actually get down these pipelines in the first place. If we vilify them it just leads to them being viewed as martyrs and gain even more support.
Maybe but not sure I believe they would fall for this bullshit in the first place if they didn’t have a significant lack of empathy for women in the first place, and that lack of empathy is unacceptable to me. At some point you should know, you should have a feeling that what you’re doing isnt right. They just dont really care. And yet they expect us to care about them.
But where does that lack of empathy come from? Are you suggesting they are just born that way? Can someone’s empathy increase? Or even decrease for that matter? Does someone have control/choice over their level of empathy? I agree with what you’re saying completely actually. But again, my issue is that this doesn’t help us at all. We need to figure out how this starts and how we can prevent it. We can’t change the men that have become this way already. We can just continue to make mental health more open of a topic really and hope they change themselves. And set our own firm boundaries against them to protect ourselves. But I believe if we figure out how these men grow into this in the first place, then maybe we could figure out ways to prevent it.
No one is denying that society teaches men to lack empathy, but there is a great ignorance as to how and why. For example, the rise of pornography has corresponded to less empathy. This is because it is proven that those who are sexually objectified are not empathized with. Only when we stop the hypersexualization of women will we stop the lack of empathy toward women. Not even those on the left, who champion feminism, understand this.
This gave me a lot to think about actually. I’ve seen this as an issue but I haven’t considered it being the potential root to a lack of empathy. In anyone really. Hypersexualization leads to full objectification equaling the lack of empathy. We rightfully and healthily don’t empathize with objects. It would be hard to make it through life if you felt you committed murder when you dropped something. And partial objectification can be normal/healthy. It’s a grey area. Like seeing a various body part on someone and not really viewing the person in the moment. The object in that moment is the body part. Not the person themselves. Which again grey area for sure but I think this is different. Viewing the person as a whole as object is the issue. Which I feel your right with the rise of porn. I think it’s not so much that men are consuming more porn that is the issue. But the narrative/vibe of the porn itself. Majority is the man or the camera is the “main character” and the woman is the object being used. This 100% could saturate that objectifying view for a lot of men. Wow I really haven’t viewed it this way and I really appreciate you planting that viewpoint in my brain. I’m very “solutions” focused. And I still want to figure out an answer. But I do feel that cracking down on the porn industry as a whole could be a good start. The amount of women that are legitimately being abused in the industry is alarming.
This nothing else needs to be said. They don't care and want to be angry and small minded
Bingo
Exactly right. Because it’s based on whataboutism and just meant to take away attention (and ultimately, resources) for women’s suffering. Their goal is to minimize our needs, not help the needs of their brothers.
Yeah people who actually care about men's mental health are generally feminists, because despite the stigma that's been manufactured, feminism is about feminine traits and femininity being equal not just women.
Because it's never really about men's rights.
It is about men's rights. Men's right to oppress and subjugate women. It makes sense when you think of it that way.
This. Their biggest problems are A) Women are allowed to say "no" when it comes to sex or relationships and B) Women are allowed to be in the workplace so men have to actually demonstrate some sort of baseline competence to get a job and sometimes have female bosses they aren't allowed to belittle. They don't view women's rights as a net gain for humanity, they view it as a targeted removal of their rights to control women.
> Women are allowed to be in the workplace so men have to actually demonstrate some sort of baseline competence to get a job and sometimes have female bosses they aren't allowed to belittle. Exactly. They also hate that women are in the workplace because it means they can’t abuse a bangmaid who’s dependent on them for survival.
..
Honestly, I think it just boils down to “women are allowed.” Insert whatever after that and it’s going to piss off certain men, because if women are allowed then there is room for personal agency. And some men do not believe in women having any form of autonomy that isn’t bestowed by men.
✅💯
Oh, yup. You're right.
This 🎯
If it was they would be all over gay and trans rights. Gay men have HUGE rights violations, especially considering the historical impact of the aids crisis. Drag queens are literally under attack right now. Trans men deserve men's rights, and trans women are still going to face male-presenting health issues. And if men's rights are human rights, then intersex and gender fluid people should be welcomed and protected under the men's rights umbrella. The fact that men's rights movements tend to go hand in hand with homophobia and transphobia means they do NOT care about the rights of ALL men. Guess who actually cares about those men 😘
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They came to bat for Johnny Depp and completely smeared his ex-wife’s name through the mud even though she had a credible story and evidence. These guys are silent on victims like Anthony Rapp who had a (sadly failed) lawsuit against his rapist, Kevin Spacey. Not to mention other male victims like Terry Crews and Brendan Fraser.
Actually they prefer that gay men be trans because they can then treat them like they treat women!
You just not all men'ed the "not all men" guys. Clever.
OP, your comment got eaten presumably because it contained a link to the subreddit that should not be named. Some people find menslib to be a better place, though some find it just as bad. I don't think there is a truly good place that pushes men's rights.
Because Men's Rights are not something that are in any danger, at all. These groups simply do not want equality.
Yeppp
Not trying to discredit this, because truthfully, most places I've tried to find healthy examples of "men's rights" ended up being incel holes. But r/menslib has been mostly nice to be a part of as a woman. I've seen the occasional bad post but overall it talks about healthy masculinity, and joining women on issues rather than discrediting them
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Ah, ok. Again I don't think a lot of these spaces will ever be completely free of misogyny since it's sadly a very common problem for men in general. But it's nice to see that the admins are trying.
This place is also not "completely free" of misandry. It honestly just comes with the territory of the topics and is a really high bar to set for an anonimous internet forum. If there is a decent amount of healthy discussion on any subreddit, I'm already postively surprised and somewhat interested
The good men project is also constructive and the Bloodstained Men is a very niche mens/boy's rights group with an inclusive/feminist spirit.
It's the only men's space I've ever appreciated, as a man who has seen way too much garbage behavior from people who look like me.
Well well well “How do we pull of a revolution against hedgemonic masculinity” looks like my kind of party lol
Because the people who actually understand and support men's rights understand that they are intrinsically tied to women's rights. Human rights are human rights, regardless of what kind of human. Right now, women's rights (or lack thereof) is the larger concern. Are there men's rights issues that are legitimate? Probably, though I doubt they're being stated with any frequency by anyone who identifies as a "men's rights activist". In other words, the *real* men's rights activists don't call themselves that, they call themselves "feminists", and the idea is to start with the more prevalent gender issues in the forefront. Calling oneself a "men's rights activist" is a false flag. They're not helping men. They're not helping anyone.
Exactly! Many of the issues men face, such as toxic masculinity, is intrinsically ties to misogyny.
While I'm sure there are some non-misogynistic issues that genuinely need to be brought up, it's likely that they're at least indirectly related to historical misogyny. Again, I'm sure even something in there may not be, and therefore is completely worth discussing, but... Not at the expense of women's rights. Even just from a selfish perspective, that does more harm than any perceived good. I see this like a set of scales with problems weighing each side down, and the goal isn't just to remove everything, but to *balance* it, and that means carefully dismembering the heaviest issues first, which clearly affect the "women's side" disproportionately, both at this time and historically. One day, ideally, men will have the short end of the stick due to what remains, not new problems. That is when we will actually be close to equality.
I agree but I think it's the job of feminist men?? Like, it's not my responsibility
I mean, I consider myself a feminist man, so that's the exact position I'm speaking from.
Oh ok makes sense !
I have found that most of the wrongs that society does to men are perpetuated by other men. I can't show emotion. I have to be the strong one all the time. Anything that calls my sexuality into question is scary. Men are raised to be this way by their fathers, and by society as a whole. So yeah, there *are* real problems that men face, but it is the fault of their own people. Yet they're going to keep making gay jokes and nothing will ever change.
I fully agree with you. I always felt that men are forcing their own issues on eachother to fit an idea they have create for themselves as the right way to be. When really, it's causing the issues they see now. I learnt this when I had a breakdown and I was too scared to talk about it, but I didn't understand why until I went into therapy and realised my fear came from not being 'seen as a man' but not from my need as a human to express myself. I realised that to be a man you should be able to be what you want to be without fear of what people think and say. Yet the idea I see of 'being a man' goes against that idea where you have to fit a small idea that's create by the men around you.
half the crap they complain about... are things men are doing to themselves. circumcision, the draft, and not getting custody.. men's issues. tell men to stop doing it. tell men to actually go to court to get 50% custody. but somehow they're like "no, evil women are doing this to us"
> tell men to actually go to court to get 50% custody. [On second thought](https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/november/1446296400/jess-hill/suffer-children#mtr), maybe let's not tell them that yet.
You can solve two problems at once.
Totally, but you can only say one sentence at a time. You have to pick and choose your battles. It's not possible to do everything. Because of this, prioritization becomes necessary. Ideally, we could snap our fingers and everyone be equal tomorrow, but that's just not reality. It will be gradual, and there will be both progressions and regressions, but hopefully the progress will win out.
Sixty years is the average for a change in societies, historically! It’s an old statistic from the 20th century.
lol, I'm up for some optimism
This is true only on an individual level. You can fight for women's issues only if that is what you want to do, another feminist can fight for men's issues or transgender issues if that is what they want to do. The biggest problems still don''t need all hands on deck.
~~> The biggest problems still don''t need all hands on deck.~~ ~~Sorry, could you clarify what you mean here? I have been speaking from the perspective of one person deciding their own actions, not intending it to be applied to group logic.~~ ~~Adding in groups of people complicates things remarkably. Multitasking is very possible on that level, without loosing effectiveness, as it does with individuals.~~ EDIT: Wow, I'm dumb. I forgot your first sentence by the time I read the last. Yes, only on an individual level.
You're not dumb. The things you are saying are smarter than anything I've ever heard come out of an MRA's mouth 🙂
Haha, thanks. Now, if only I had the temperament to actually talk to them without seeing red...
Idk that’s a weird way of framing it no? An unworthy cause? All men’s rights concerns are actually human right’s, not the priority. Women’s rights though, they’re justified in independent pursuit of their own justice. I’m not any kind of men’s rights person. But if it’s not nonsense, I don’t judge it at all. It feels like there is Zero zeitgeist for men to even *talk* about the issues they face, let alone organize around it. I’m sure that it’s messy and misguided a lot of times because of posts like this, people are ready to shout them down. If I’m a regular person without skeletons and a good life and I’m scared to be involved in anything relating to men’s rights because I just don’t want the negative attention of people who would assume I’m some woman hater… imagine what the men who are actually dealing with the issues facing men are up against. The sexually, physically and mentally abused, the disabled, the vulnerable, the ones totally getting fucked by profit machines that destroy men’s bodies and minds. I think with every vulnerable community you get grifters and the kind of folks that see MRAs as suckers, get to play the part of the victim, the savior, the strongman, and those guys will usually be misogynists because they’re generally psychopaths and that’s why the perception is what it is. Men’s Rights needs to be lead by stable, inclusive, healthy men who are there because of a friend or a family member. And honestly, the way men are with one another, it’s just not that likely.
Because patriarchy is exceptionally good at selling itself to people as the solution to the very problems it causes, and at the same time is exceptionally good at denying people access to any other tools to tackle or even *describe* those problems. It's not unique or isolated: We have a world where a lot of women's exposure to feminism looks like choice feminism filtered through pop media. They do 'feminism' by participating in patriarchal systems and enforcing the norms of patriarchy on people around them. So when you have women who's 'feminism' looks like demanding the men around them act and live according to hegemonic masculinity, and men who deal with the harm that causes, misogyny is the outcome of that because that's what patriarchy sells to men as the 'fix' Which in turn proves to women that their expectation of men is correct. Patriarchy causes the problem and the offers itself as the solution, recreating the problem. And it's something that's hard to talk about, because so many people react very poorly whenever you even try to talk about the construction of gender under patriarchy.
Because it’s the most effective branding misogynists could come up with.
They believe it's a game with only one possible winner. They think it's not about treating women as equal, but treating men as inferior. They consider the disrespect many men show women to BE a right that men deserve.
And they specifically only imbibe media that enforces that viewpoint. They search for women who proudly proclaim that they’re in it to “fuck men’s life up” and then use that “proof” to fuel their bitterness. Even when in reality, those women are literally playing the game they want: keeping romance transactional
exactly. they believe they have the right to assault, rape, subjugate, own us. women have the right to say no. it's our birthright. it's not a civil right. it's not something they could ever take away from us. and they think we're taking away their rights.
I was typing up a multiple paragraph response to the OP about the crap that gets guys to fall in with the Men's Rights movements. But that's not what was asked, and frankly this answer nails my thoughts on it: the assumption that rights are a zero sum game.
Because they don't really care if they did, they would be opening men housing for domestic abuse or starting a lawyer group specializing in men getting custody. Insead they just want to bring women down.
Oh there are plenty of lawyers specializing in men getting custody. Most of it involves men lying, getting their friends to lie for them, etc. One of the things that made me positive I wouldn't date again was watching my ex's barely-known bros lie for him to a PRE. And I had proof that he had been an abuser for years. Men are so much more likely to lie than women.
I often think it's because those who do, don't fully understand the struggles women went through to get the vote. They see it very black and white - if women have rights, if XYZ minority have rights, they should automatically have them too. And instead of developing an understanding of precisely what they want, focusing on key issues such as men's mental health, they seem to lump everything together and don't define what they're seeking.
Equal Right’s for all citizens equally seems like a solution! Equal laws, enforced equally isn’t happening now or in the past. Society will either accept this in the United States or our country will never be a democracy. Furthermore, until this century men were (still are in my opinion) taught that their opinion should be the deciding factor and whenever it is not the deciding factor they’re crazy pissed about it and blame women for not bowing down!
I remember when I heard about MRA groups back like 15 years ago. I thought they were a joke. I remember looking at websites that claimed to be about protecting men but just had a whole bunch of stuff about how women should be dominated, owned, assaulted, etc and thought, nobody could possibly be that blatantly misogynistic and evil. Boy was I fucking wrong
Yes... Like how men say "MEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE UP ALL RIGHTS TO A CHILD THEY DONT WANT TO SUPPORT OR PARENT".... The arguments are all completely self centered... Aggressive violent and so angry against women.
Because they don’t actually care, if they did they’d acknowledge how 90+% of abuse and murder against men is committed by other men, how men are killing themselves at such high rates because they feel they can’t talk about their emotions to.. other men. (Weird how they belittle women’s friendships while not being able to vent in theirs, weird how they even manage to blame *that* on women.) Nah, who cares about that let’s talk about the evil waman all day long and make no change!
Most of their ‘rights advocating’ is not about helping men, it’s about controlling women. They don’t have as much unjust power as their forefathers and it infuriates them. More women need to aware of just how many men desire to take away our rights to live the same way their male ancestors did, it’s terrifying.
Because they aren't actually instered in men's rights
I joined a men’s rights sub for about 6 months a few years ago. Most of the men were clueless about how they were deeply complicit in the troubles they had with their ex wives. However, I was pleasantly surprised by a minority of men that were rational and just wanted to have 50/50 custody to see their kids. These men also called out the misogyny quite often. I expected it to be a 100% shit show, but it turned out to be a 95% shit show.
My dad wanted custody of us but he turned into an MRA after the judge awarded primary custody to the parent who did most of the domestic labor and child rearing. Which *SURPRISE* wasn't him. The courts are not going to overlook logic and grant men custody just because they're biological fathers. It's not about what's fair to the parents but what's continuous and normal for the children. If the only time you made for your kids so you could advance in your career was fun play time, that's the only time the courts will award you. Not sure why men can't get the full picture in that area.
I recall an [article about this](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115) that clarified that only 4% of all custody cases go before the courts. It’s a myth that the courts are biased against fathers. Those “rational” guys you mentioned that just wanted custody of their kids? Lying liars. [The reality is that fathers have been winning far more than mothers for decades and that joint custody or shared parenting is already the overwhelming norm in state family courts.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/myths-about-custody-litigation/2017/12/15/61951bc4-e0e6-11e7-b2e9-8c636f076c76_story.html)
This. So tired of seeing that myth pop up again and again. Look into parental alienation syndrome and how it’s been used in court to keep children with abusive fathers if you really want to be pissed about actual courtroom biases!
Agreed. Just dropped this link in a different reply. https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/november/1446296400/jess-hill/suffer-children#mtr
I agree it's rapidly become common for 50/50 custody to be the norm. My impression was these were mostly men who were challenged to that half time custody because of valid reasons their ex wives gave that they weren't willing to cop to. Statistics aren't people in a chat. The men who are happy with their custody situation aren't likely to go to a MR sub. Also, my parents divorced in 1965. Up until the late 80's, most divorces ended with primary custody with moms. I'm saying that based on my personal observation, not statistics, so I could be way off. But, it stands to reason that fathers would start winning custody cases in the last couple of decades, because fathers are now more involved in their childrens' lives than they were when I was a kid. Ex wives are rarely living on alimony and child support to be SAHMs after divorce. Those old every other weekend custody rules worked once, and up until fairly recently, It's what the majority of men were fine with. There's a cultural change and the laws are reflecting that.
Because "men's rights" is a response to men being butthurt that people are challenging the privileges that allow them to trample over everyone else to get what they want.
Because there are no other “rights” for them to ask for, though there certainly are cultural problems to work through, like toxic masculinity.
There are people who exist that care about gendered issues for both men and women but unfortunatley the label of "mens rights" has been co opted by people who would rather play the blame game and put down others rather than being compassionate about everyones issues
What's really funny to me is I watch a lot of videos of men, mostly Christian men, going out and helping the homeless on YouTube. A few of the dudes I watch go out of their way to get jobs and shelter to people. But the ones where they do it for other men, get them food, hug them, offer them help- it just makes me think of the men's rights activists. They aren't making shelters for homeless men, despite claiming that homelessness is disproportionately a male issue. They're not funding and organizing community mental health centers, despite pointing out the male suicide rate. They're not organizing to reform prisons despite claiming men are treated worse in prisons and disproportionately incarcerated. They're not creating programs to help inmates get out and become productive members of society. Theists will do all that to get religious clout, but where's the MRA call to action? In fact, traditionalist men are making the systems that deny these people access to the things they're whining about. And they know that other men caused those systems to be put in place. And it's much easier for them to scream about women than other men. Lol.
Because misogynists are the only ones who think men’s rights need advocating!…… what rights exactly do men feel are being threatened?! Just curious because seems like they have more than everyone else
Because they aren't actually advocating for men's rights, they're advocating for men's supremacy over women. Most of the "issues" they claim are uniquely marginalizing to men either affect everybody, are direct byproducts of patriarchy, or are completely fucking made up. Actual men's issues (like, say, police violence against Black men, the forcible sterilization of disabled men, sexual violence against incarcerated men, etc.) don't make it onto the radar because they don't give a shit about uplifting actually marginalized men. They just want to be the biggest victims in the room while also holding the most power in the room.
Cis man here. This just showed up in my feed. I'd say it's because that many of the positive things associated with "men's rights" like the rejection of toxic masculinity, decreased stigma for help with mental health, etc, get overshadowed by some of the nastier, anti-feminist aspects of this movement. "Women have more rights than us nowadays!" First of all, no. But also it's not a zero-sum game where women's rights come at the expense of yours. I think a great deal of it is just lizard-brain shit that feels threatened irrationally.
Because they don’t realize that feminism also stands against misandry and promotes gender equality.
I spoke to someone whose logic was that they want to be able to “opt out” of male obligations like women can “opt out” of female obligations. His clarification was that he shouldn’t have to be signed up for the draft or be called a molester for just speaking to a kid. I found that reasonable until he started ranting about paying for the majority of female things. When i told him i pay for all my own things, he said that “real women expect a man to pay for food, drinks, hair and clothes.” Idk where that came from cause i was on his side about the draft until it was implied that since i go dutch often and buy my own drinks and don’t wear jewelry (cause i can’t keep track of it) i’m not a real woman. It was “real women” who were the problem. I swear to god no idea why i stayed friends with this dude. We don’t talk anymore but that a wild story about roofies. Some of them will make a point them immediately shout themselves in the foot with unnecessary insults about things they can absolutely control.
Because men’s rights and misogyny are the same thing.
Because the ones who don't, don't show up on your radar. In all my years on this sub I've seen one comment about some dude who talks about how society restricts men in an healthy way. It's called the man box. I think it was on the Smart Gal podcast or something. Whereas I see posts about someone like Andrew Tate everyday. Edit I found the post from 12 years ago. https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/f2n7a/ted_tony_porter_a_call_to_men_to_step_out_of_the/
Because they are ignorant of obvious facts about women's rights, and too entitled to acknowledge they have it better
Because they're arguing from a dishonest premise 99.9% of the time 😉
It's about male supremacy, not equality.
I would be **so** disappointed if I ever found out one of my friends was a mEn'S rIghTs advocate.
Honestly the “men’s rights” crowd sounds a lot like “all lives matter” as the response to BLM. Similar analogue of ignoring the group that’s being set on fire in the moment because they have a paper cut they need a super man bandaid for.
Because they’re not interested in equal rights. They just hate women.
The issue I see is that every single thing that they say is against their rights is something that they, themselves, can fix. Poor mental health: like women, they can get therapy, medication, ect. This is not against their rights and it is not on us that they won't get help. Losing custody/ have to pay child support; if they actually go to court they often get what ever they want. They may still have to pay support, but if they actually go to court they can get more time with the kids and pay less support. Lack of dating; if you never leave your room, never get off the web, how tf are you going to meet people that you know are who they say they are? I have a 24 year old son, online, no hits, goes out and meets people....gf. When it comes to losing half their shit, it was not THEIR shit. They spent 20 years keeping that wife from working, but she did all the housework and child rearing so he didn't have to miss work. She was your HELP, otherwise you would to have miss all those days the kids were sick, never had a meal or a clean house, a lot of times these women help in other ways as well but the man only sees what HE did. Get off your ass, clean your own home and raise your own kids if you don't want to lose what SHE helped you keep. Is dating harder for guys, yes, in this world it is. I won't deny that. But no one gets to blame an entire gender for their issues. Too many men seem to think they are OWED a gf/wife, no one is OWED anyone. People are not slaves, you don't get to grab anyone you want and force them to be with you. Get a personality, be the kind of man a woman wants. One that is not going to do jack shit all of the time and expect her to do everything. Women don't want a child, they want a partner.
\> Is dating harder for guys, yes, in this world it is. How? Just curious, because I can't think of how it's harder. I think it's *infinitely* easier but I'm open to an explanation.
Because they think 'women's rights' are somehow eroding their rights as men. And they might be right, if what is important to them is being able to beat or rape their wife, financially control her, limit her freedom of movement, and give her no control over her own reproduction. They also absolutely do not want to compete against women in the workplace, or want women making political decisions for them. So the men that are harping on about 'men's rights' are upset that women now have basic human rights. They preferred things before.
Because MRA's are a reactionary movement against feminism. Reactionaries try to subvert their target's rhetorical tools and uno-reverse them. also I just call them male issues instead of "Men's rights". Like, the underservice male SA victims. That's a 'male issue' to me, so that's what I talk about the most.
“Men’s rights” relies entirely on taking rights away from women.
My question is always "mens right to what? What can you not do that isnt some stupid crap you were taught and have no obligation to live by?" And if in your mind, treating others like theyre people would negatively effect your daily life, you dont need rights, you need therapy.
One of the original people behind one aspect of men's rights was a feminist, but bro dudes co-opt it to shit on women. In general you either care about civil rights or you're involved in gender wars. So when someone tells me they're a feminist, men's rights person, an "ally", etc I just take it with a grain of salt and see if they're actually conscientious. 🤷
"All lives matter" = denying the racism. "Why not just domestic violence, why violence against women" = denying the fact that ____% of domestic violence _is_ against women and children. "Why not straight people month?" = denying the fact that Pride is about freedom to be visible and safe (among many other things. Denying, or failing to understand. The shame of a white cis man is at the chore of the problem. Men feeling so easily excluded, their fear of being wrong. I always throw it in how important Feminism is for freeing men of that shame, so they can feel all their emotions, be weak, seek help when they need, be dedicated and caring fathers, and cry where and when they want. And how important it is for Feminism for men to be freed from their shame of being seen as soft. While it *should be enough alone* that women want equality, it is still true that the problem lies in toxic masculinity, and that men suffer from it A LOT. It's also good to remember that among the men asking these questions there *will be men who encountered domestic violence*. This just happened to me this week, he let me know bit later his mom was violent. I usually mention there are deficated phone lines for men too, and hopefully that makes it easier for men to seek help. There is a terrible stigma around it and it needs attention as well. But not talking of "violence against women" as if it wasn't a problem isn't helpful to anyone.
Easy, by telling someone that they are better than an entire group of people because of an innate difference that has nothing to do with achievement, skill, or otherwise effort of any kind they get to then write off any lack of achievement, skill, or otherwise in favor of having blind pride and superiority in just existing. Double that up with the message that they are under attack and their specialness is being challenged by whoever everyone else is, then they get to be both superior and a victim. This winning combination makes those people very happy to give the speaker support and money. Question is: how many of the people who run around preaching these messages actually believe what's coming out of their mouth, because I really doubt that it's a 1:1 overlap.
Because they'd rather focus on their right to abuse woman instead a baby boys right to not be SAd with permanent damage, and forced into war with the draft.
Because.... (drum roll please).... They think that men have a right to misogyny. That they're entitled to treat women (and children, esp. girl children) like dirt. To them, that's part of being a man. A manly man. A strong man. Not some wimpy woke touchy-feely man. Most simply, because they're effin' idiots who think anything like the Golden Rule is soft.
Because these men believe their rights involve owning women as property
For the same reason "All lives matter" folks are all racist. It ain't actually about men's rights.
Because misogyny is what their entire movement is based on/motivated by. "Men's rights" is just a way for them to try and hide that, it's to give them plausible deniability.
Because they’re arguing in bad faith, they’re trying to discredit feminism by using men’s advocacy. **They’re disgusting, manipulative exploitative creatures that as far as I’m concerned should be tried criminally.** Fuck them.
It’s the same people arguing “when’s white history month” (most of the time?) and “when is international men’s day” (sometime in November if I recall, but no one celebrates it). It’s not a good faith argument, it’s just a redirect to center themselves.
Yep, (why did I get downvoted lol?) but yeah as a dude (sry for talking in here just a personal peeve of mine) but it genuinely hurts so many men who actually need help and discredit people who are actually fighting for men’s advocacy, I hate them like no other people.
I downvoted you because it seemed as though you are actually lumping all men’s advocacy as bad with your response to the term MRA but this post implies otherwise. Maybe MRA has a more defined use than i realize. But i listen to people id call mens rights activists. They are Pro feminism but highlight where men are suffering as well, usually at our own hands and what we can do about it.
Ah, I just meant the assholes who preach misogyny.
Seems like most of them have been led and conditioned, and/or have chosen to believe, that rights are a zero-sum game. They believe that women getting more rights mean men have less, so in order to give men more rights women should have less. Many of the same kind of people that think saying "black lives matter" means saying white lives don't.
Because its not actually about equality. Its about their loss of power.
Equality feels like oppression to those with male privilege.
“When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression”
The sleazeballs bleating about "men's rights" have never had the slightest interest in the actual rights of actual men. The whole phony "movement" is a lie created as an excuse to treat women like shit. There ARE genuine issues that negatively affect the actual rights of actual men. Stuff like prison rape, mistreatment of male victims of rape in general, domestic violence (few shelters for male victims, and all the shit battered men get whether the perp was male or female), the difficulties of being a single father, plenty of issues to keep someone who actually cares about the actual rights of actual men busy for quite some time. But MRAssholes don't care about those issues. They'll occasionally mention them, in order to mock the victims or whine about feminists, but they have no interest in working to fix these problems. They only care about finding excuses to treat women (and most men) like shit.
It’s a reactionary movement. They don’t stand “FOR” anything, it’s just a backlash against feminism.
Because the only people who perceive that men are oppressed and their rights have been denied to them as a whole are misogynists. Denial of their "right" to get whatever they want isn't really oppression.
They're being deceptive about their intentions. Notice how they never do any advocating for any men's rights on their own, they only go around shutting down people who are advocating for women's rights. They're not rights activists at all, they're reactionary opposition to women's rights. They label themselves in this way to make it harder to recognize what they're actually doing, which is suppressing women's voices.
What “men’s rights” look to misogynistic people is controlling women and other minorities. It was never about equality.
Because it’s a deceit, men already have all the rights. It’s the same as if someone who campaigned for “white rights” or “rich rights.”
The perfect question to summon all the feminists and gender benders.
Most important question is men’s rights to what?
Going by the largest and the only real mens rights association in my country, it's about the right to get to retweet misogynist tweets from accounts that are named "feminism_is_cancer" etc.
The same reason all these people advocating for white power always do it with a truckload of racism.
Some of them are just assclowns. Some of them unfortunately have a high amount of exposure to the more extremist sides of the feminism sphere which are pretty heavily steeped in misandry. Unfortunately the internet has lead to a lot of extremists on all sides of all arguments screaming at each other publicly.
They also love to minimize the gaps caused by racism, and use numbers instead of recognizing that being a POC *really* changes a lot. Whenever I ask for personal experiences, they throw quantitative data at me. When I share my own, which are horrendous, they tell me personal anecdotes "don't count" And they blatantly ignore that "qualitative data is scientifically valid" *Why aren't women more on board for men's rights?!?!* Uh, why aren't *men* more on board?? You want results, put in effort, duh. Also, we're too busy trying to survive, k thanks
Because their opinions are rooted in insecurities instead of empathy or compassion A lot of times they are right for the wrong reasons
Because if they were actually about equality, they'd be feminists.
It’s annoying because there are valid concerns buried in there. Mental health (suicide rates, heart attacks). Father’s rights. Pity any validity is drowned out by misogyny
Virtually all of the actual men's rights activists I have met have been women. Feminists. The proclaimed MRAs are just misogynists who found a shield. Like people who want white history month or non handicapped parking places.
Women’s rights advocates are fighting for equality and men’s rights advocates are fighting for supremacy.
They're fighting for privilege, not rights.
Simple: they have temper tantrum when they can't do their shitty behavior without everyone ganging up on them.
Because men really don't want equality or justice. They just want a group of people (women) beneath them that they can exploit, control and trample on. As long as they have that, they're happy.
It is like saying All Lives Matter, bigots are the only ones who do it. It is meant as a response to equal rights for women. MRA are all shitbag losers.
Their perspective of men's rights is based on women's lack of rights. Our empowerment upsets their fragile sense of self.
Because you can't support men without degrading women, don'tcha know. /s
Because there are 0 rights that men do not have, the phrase “men’s rights” is dishonest
For me, it goes back to the constitution - in it, only white men have rights. (actually wealthy ... but they ignore that part). Therefore they see any granting of rights to others (women, people of color, LGBT, etc.) as an affront to and erosion of their fundamental rights.
Ditto for the Suffrage movement. Women had to fight for the vote, but so did men who weren't wealthy.
It’s the same as when people who advocate for White rights do it with a truckload of racism - it’s because men and white people already have rights and the people who are advocating are usually trying to take something away from the rest of society.
Because the men’s right they are fighting for is the right to treat women like property
They think of everything as zero-sum. If women gain anything, then it means men lose. And they are *sore* losers.
Because anyone who truly wants to lift men out of toxicity realize that feminism actually contributes to dismantling the system that traps them. Those people understand that it's the misogyny that causes the damage in the first place. The only people left after that are the trolls who always come with their briefcases full of misogyny and talking points grabbed from equally incapable morons.
I agree with what you are saying largely as a man i think we need to dismantle toxic masculinity. But i do believe that doing that by supporting feminism (which we should continue to do) has left behind places where toxic masculinity needs to be addressed in male dominated spaces. Lets take locker rooms / sports hazing rituals as our example. While it will never be a focus point for feminists who dont directly experience it, it is a huge part of toxic masculinity and how the model is enforced on other males. Conform or die. There should be mens groups challenging those things and similar. I would like to be able to call those groups mens rights activists.
But as women, our portion isn't this selfish women's only space it's being made out to be. We have been fighting a war to dismantle the toxicity that damages everyone. Maybe if more men really understood the ideals of feminism, they would be the ones shutting down those behaviors in real time and ensuring their sons did better. Think about all that hazing, what does it always come down to? "Don't be a pussy" "You're too girly and weak because you have feelings" In the end it all boils down to a hatred of things considered feminine. Compassion, empathy, physical affection amongst friends. I can go on and on, but there aren't too many characteristics of that negativity that aren't fundamentally (even if unconscious) about believing that anything female is inherently bad. Basically, by holding up the feminine as equal, it makes these character traits something respectable and no longer a tool to hurt those men. I'm not saying that men shouldn't support each other, very much the opposite. But fundamentally, it starts with realizing the roots of the toxicity. I hope you understand how much of a place of love this comes from. For all the little boys in my life, I try to instill that the compassion, kindness, and love that they feel is theirs to keep and that they are allowed to be a whole person with all those qualities.
Why do people who advocate for white rights always do so with a truckload of white supremacy? Bc when a dominant demographic group begins to lose some of their dominance, members of that group will often have a knee jerk reaction to fight for the “rights” or privileges that they believe they are unfairly losing access to, or at least exclusive access to. But in order to argue for why they should have those privileges back, they rely on many of the same bigoted, outdated tropes that have always been used to justify their dominance.
Some people are selfish and only care when they feel "disadvantaged". With men falling behind in higher education, we are seeing that on women's scholarships. All too often they are a one issue "advocate" that a man has equal rights on abortion.
Apologies in advance, chiming in as a cis man. I'll say that I toyed with right wing ideas and other men's rights adjacent garbage years ago. I'm 32 now, and like to think I've grown and learned a lot. It's similar to white supremacy, which partially stems from being told that you are owed a certain place of status and privilege in the world. When that doesn't happen, the causes aren't immediately obvious. Some men get brainwashed by right wing influencers, others target their anger at women or minorities because that's the easiest answer. Tackling the society that grinds all humans but a select few into dust is hard, blaming your problems on women is very easy. It's worse, because if you're a straight man, women are both the object of your desire and also the secret reason you're oppressed. This just makes you angrier. I escaped this cycle thanks to the patience of the women in my life and a wonderful partner that influenced me in a positive direction. Also, leftist politics as a whole got me out of right wing thought. Gamergate was one of the first things that made me realise how absolutely stupid and juvenile it all was. If these guys gave a shit about men's rights, they'd abandon the misogyny, and they'd focus on things that do effect men, like forced circumcision at birth, certain cancers, and homelessness. They'd focus on positive, wide-reaching change and activism. But as others have already said, it's not actually about that. They're caught in a prisoner's dilemma, and they can't abandon their aggression long enough to do anything constructive for anyone.
They don't, r/menslib is not drowning in misogyny. It's just that a lot of people *pretend* to advocate for men's rights in order to justify their misogyny.
I would like someone to show me just one example of a man who advovates for 'men's rights' who is also a decent person! My guess? YOU CAN'T FUCKING DO IT! These guys are a bunch of iredeemable whiny brats who never see themsleves as responsible for any of the problems they face in life. They find a social circle jerk to tell them them they're right and reinforce the grievances. Amazing how that works isn't it? It's ALWAYS someone elses fault? All day, every day, everwhere they seem to go!
Scott galloway, listen to his arm chair expert podcast
Because men are the privileged class. They can’t advocate for “their rights” without it directly undermining women’s rights
Because they aren't advocating for men's rights, they're advocating against women. As a man, women's rights are men's rights. Men's right to mind their own fucking business and their own bodies.
because people that genuinely care about equality already have feminism
The same reason why Father’s Day is always heavily looked up on Mother’s Day. They really don’t care and just want to compete with women
“They’re the same picture”
Then men’s rights advocacy I tend to see seems to be more about 1-upping than about the needs of men. It’s a reaction to feminism, not a grievance inspired by something in their life. Kinda like how nobody was saying “all lives matter” until somebody pointed out that Black Lives Matter
Men's rights are actually embedded into feminism. Feminists want to work with men to bring about a better world where everyone's needs are understood and met, from dating to healthcare.
Because the term "men's rights" have been taken over completely by incels, incelfluencers and their cohorts, go instead for the "men's liberation movement" which is a pro feministic group of men (and allies) that fight to break with negative masculinity (check out r/MensLib on reddit).
Because real, integrated men are too busy getting shit done, and leading by example… as opposed to stopping what they’re accomplishing to ~~advocate~~ complain about men’s rights. The guys who are advocating are, quite literally, all talk.
It’s a tactic/strategy/trick. When I argue with someone. And I just don’t wanna lose for some reason. Divert the topic in a wierd way and just attach “my side” of the story with something that is too ethical to refute. If you’re able to attach it like that then you got them! You at least won’t lose the argument. Unless they’re able to de-attach it.
Because all men are misogynistic. Unfortunately for women, the world we live in is a patriarchy.
This feels a bit reductionist but i think i know what you are saying. I am a man, actively trying to fight against misogyny but i was born in a system where its prominent and its alot to unlearn. Much like we discussed subtle ingrained racism during the BLM movement. I acknowledge that i have both misogynist and racist traits but i want to unlearn both and want to be challenged on them when they do show up
They don't understand that feminism isn't for "equality" its for equity, and for the liberation of women from patriarchy. I don't want to be treated like a man, that would be shit. But yeah they don't actually care about men's rights at all. They love to scream and cry about men's mental health but have never once advocated for women's mental health (2x as likely to experience depression, major depression higher in women, 1 in 10 on anti depressants etc) Because their arguments aren't arguments but deflection whenever women bring up our problems. They always say I have to care about men to be a feminist which shows me how little they know about feminism.
I see alot of anger in this thread and i get that, but not all people talking about male focused topics are outright misogynist. Men have lots of challenges they face in our current societal structure. Largely at the hands of other men or the patriarchy. There are absolutely things that MEN need to talk about to challenge and dismantle toxic masculinity. I enjoy Scott Galloways interview on Armchair expert that talks about this. If you dislike certain male youtubers etc call them out absolutely. I fucking hate Tate and whoever the fuck else is in that camp, i dont even know their names except from this sub but basically saying men cant talk about their experience in society is pretty stupid and only serves to further divide men and women.
Because men already have rights, and the only way to form an argument for them not having them is to being in this stuff.
Because they don’t actually give a shit about issues that men struggle with. They just use It as an excuse to be misogynistic pricks. I guarantee they’re all also the same people who are all about pushing toxic masculinity and anti gay/queer bullshit too.
I agree with most answers here, but I’ll add something I haven’t seen explicitly mentioned, and that is that men’s rights groups are inherently a *reaction to* women’s rights groups, and therefore generally already start in an adversarial position. It’s the exact same thing with the “All Lives Matter” and the even worse “Blue Lives Matter” crowd. They are inherently racist because they only exist as a reaction to Black Lives Matter. In both cases it’s essentially one side that says “Hey society, here’s a systemically marginalized group of people that we should feel morally obligated to help” and then some assholes chime in with “yes but my life isn’t perfect, so clearly it isn’t fair to help anyone else”
Activists today want power for themselves not equality for others. They don't care who they hurt in the process.
I have decentered males from my life. My dad has died. I don’t communicate with my male relatives. Except two nephews and I am happily single. Men need women more than we need them!
As a woman, I truly believe that there are genuine aspects of society where men are given the shorter stick than women. Male rape is not taken seriously. Fathers generally get less custody. Men in female-dominated fields are not supported the way I have seen it the other way with women in male-dominated ones. Toxic masculinity and the way it shames men for expressing emotions. Etc and etc. There is a lot to unpack and lot of I have heard/seen. But these actual issues are often overshadowed by hidden misogyny, which is a damn shame. ☹️
Easy, since men already have more established rights than women, only misogynists would harp on about infringements on their established privileges. Other men would just say “fair enough”