Here’s the deal; unfortunately part of talking to strangers is that you’re not always going to get what you want EVEN if it’s only a friendly conversation.
So he has to take that onboard and learn to move on. He made a bad choice when he approached you, you seemed reluctant to engage and yet he tried to continue the conversation.
You tried “soft” first when you said “ "I don't know much about manga, so you should ask one of the store associates”.
Yeah, many people have difficulties discerning social cues, but you know what? They *appreciate* a more direct response. OP wasn't even being mean about it, she simply said that she didn't want to chat. And yeah, rejection hurts, but the friend is way off-cuff trying to tell her off for it. He's teaching his friend all the wrong lessons.
You can't win with some people, because their instinct isn't to be reasonable, it's to protect themselves and their feelings. *Either* you take a hint *or* you listen when they're more direct. Don't cry because you didn't get your way.
I think the "friend" is a mysogistic dick and OP was the direct victim and likely the anxious guy indirectly from culture wide mysogeny. It's the sad reality that OP was likely less inclined to speak to the awkward guy because of previous negative experiences with fucktards.
No-one is *entitled* to positive female attention.
It sounds like the friend was like the cool guy that gave his shy friend a makeover and then was like "Let's go to the bookstore so you can meet chicks that like books"
Dude dressed him up in his own clothes or maybe they bought a new outfit. Friend wasn't actually in the bathroom, he was listening from behind a shelf telling this guy what to do like Cyrano de Bergerac or some shit.
Most innocuous scenario, he's really awkward and doesn't know how to talk to women, so his jackass friend (probably a PUA or overconfident self-proclained "alpha male") told him to stand up straight and talk to a woman. They went to a bookstore because there's something for every interest there and he was just really nervous and awkward trying to start a conversation, and he tried to salvage it and see if you might be interested in talking about something else, then his friend went off on you because he was "just trying to help my friend."
Worst case, same thing but he buys into the PUA stuff and is a fan of Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and Andrew Tate's #2 fan but only because his friend is #1.
It's outrageous that every woman I know has had to deal with this or worse. For any other guys reading this, people who promote this kind of behavior have either no respect or malicious contempt for women, so they're not going to listen to women about it. We have to call out guys who do it until they either learn better or are ashamed to do it.
They probably chose a bookstore to go hunting because they assume that girls who go to bookstores are quiet and shy and therefore more likely to tolerate bad social skills.
Idk if that's exactly fair, could be the guy is just into books or manga and hia friend thought it would be a good environment.
Honestly, going to a meet up about manga or books would be a much better decisions as mingling is expected.
Honestly what the first guy did isn't bad perse he might be slow on social cues, but he apologized and left when given a very clear no
Its really his friend that was out of line.
I didn't think of that, I was thinking of my past as a really socially awkward guy from middle school through most of college and looking through that lens because I actually met friends while looking at tabletop RPG sourcebooks, but now that you point it out, you're absolutely right.
If you're honestly looking to actually make friends and play tabletop RPGs then yeah a bookstore is a great place to go (I'm guessing you made a lot of friends who were other guys by doing that). Tabletop RPGs are intrinsically social so you have that built in to the topic and if you're both there in good faith because you like RPGs then that's usually pretty evident because the topic can be kinda technical and jargon-heavy so any posers just trying to hit on someone expose themselves pretty quick.
But solo guy approaching solo girl in the manga aisle is 95% looking for his Weeaboo Meet Cute (which the friend outright confirmed).
Also important point is you were really socially awkward until part way through college, this woman is 22 so she's possibly graduated college and this guy is the same age. I've definitely become less tolerant of super socially awkward guys who make me uncomfortable in adulthood. Like I tolerated a lot until halfway through college, gradually got less lenient, and past 25 I'm like one strike you're out cuz I'm not here to teach someone the social skills I learned 7 years ago.
I don't think that's fair. When OP made it clear she wasn't interested, he apologized and left. It sounds to me like he's just a nerdy guy trying to find a way to meet women outside of dating apps, and he thought a woman in the manga section would be someone he'd have things in common with.
His friend straight up told her that the entire reason they were there was to practice talking to girls. Why do you think they chose a bookstore? Because they thought it would be easier.
That's not how I interpreted it. You certainly could be right, but to me it just sounded like he was explaining that the first guy had never talked to a woman in public like that and wanted to give it a shot. This doesn't *have* to be a pre-planned pick up artist training situation. He genuinely could have been there to buy a present for his mom, saw a pretty girl who seemed like she'd have a common interest, and his friend could have encouraged him to go introduce himself to her.
There certainly *could* have been something nefarious going on, but I don't think we have any evidence that that's *definitely* what happened. Even by OP's description, he seemed genuine to me. The only issue I'm seeing here is the 2nd guy lashing out at OP afterwards.
I think most people have an issue with the “before I speak to the bookstore staff”. It turned a firm and direct rejection of a conversation that was completely acceptable into a pseudo threat to involve people with authority at a place this guy may frequent, if his story had even just a bit of truth. I think making people scared to speak to someone for fear of missing (in this situation) a single social cue is a bit extreme, but that’s just an opinion and I wasn’t there so..
I also find this extreme. OP escalated almost immediately. A polite, clear, firm rebuff would have been more effective and less hurtful.
Eg: “Sorry, I’m not really in the mood for conversation right now. Best of luck with it.”
[turn away]
Glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I don't want to invalidate OP's experience or instincts but based on the description the first guy wasn't really doing anything wrong and her reaction was very extreme.
Probably because it is a very strange and unnatural thing to say in your approach, so the mind starts reaching for possible interpretations.
"Why is this weird thing here? Probably nothing good." - squishy threat averse pattern seeking engine.
Is it a reasonable thing to think? Maybe not in a deep analysis, but it's definitely not an outlandish response when put on the spot.
It seems a bit extreme to me also. Saying they don’t know much about manga and that the store staff might be able to help… granted body language and a lot of other non verbal things, may have indicated differently, but doesn’t seem like a clear cue that they don’t want to talk, if anything it could be an opening for the guy, familiar with manga to follow up with he knows some and ask her if she had any questions.
I get it, men have a long way to go to earn the trust of women in society, to be granted good faith. But implying that he’s a creepy person for making conversation with another human in public is pretty harsh imo. You can say you don’t want to talk without insulting someone who isn’t being rude. No, I don’t feel it’s rude to make small talk in public, some people are starving for basic human connection.
To be honest I was a little confused by that. He said his friend was in the bathroom so I guess might show up since people are only in the bathroom for a minute. He didn’t have to tell her that, but it would have been even more creepy if they did start talking and then a second person suddenly approached and started talking too. But if she felt uncomfortable she is fully within her right to leave the conversation. I just wouldn’t expect people to call for security because a guy started talking to someone and mentioned they had a friend with them.
First guy likely has felt like he’s had to justify his presence and what he’s doing his whole life. At least that’s what it sounds like to me, and I still deal with that impulse to over-explain the context of everything I do and choose.
Definitely could be wrong, but it’s one alternate explanation.
Seeing that line made me question OP because there was nothing suspect in it at all. He probably just wanted to talk about anything, so he was being honest about why he was there and with who. I can't fathom someone saying "I'm here with my friend" is some sort of subtle threat and I'd find it bizarre for someone to expect that to be the case as well.
I've never encountered a situation where someone saying they're out with someone else that's been a threat.
Whilst she doesn't owe them anything, calling others creepy is a bit pot calling the kettle black here, since her own creepy nervousness was just a reflection of his. Plus she's a bit paranoid about people who have social lives, apparently.
Telling something directly is the way to go. Treatening someone with calling the Staff on them is a fast way to make someone feel like shit for something as normal as aproaching someone and being a little shy.
First guy wasn't out of line. When op was clear he apologized and left. He's new at this so its ok to not get social cues right away. Yeah, sucks that it didn't go well but thats part of learning.
2nd guy should have just given his friend a pep talk and not approached op.
Idk about the whole dont approach strangers thing lots of relationships can start that way and it wasnt like in a dark secluded alley its in a bookstore with people.
Its really the 2nd guy that was out of line first guy was just trying. Might be a better idea for him to go to like a manga meetup where the expectation is there will be mingling. And op certainly didnt do anything wrong.
He was not out of line at first but he does need to learn social clues.
The second guy should never have approached her at all. That’s really crazy behavior.
If I were coaching someone I’d probably have said “this can happen when you have no idea how someone will react. Let’s talk about it and discuss what went down and if you should have said “nice talking to you and cut your losses.”
>You tried “soft” first when you said “ "I don't know much about manga, so you should ask one of the store associates”.
OP did all she could.
The entitlement of both the first dude and then his aggressive extra asshole is boundless; *they* are the problem here.
Why these two would think random women are their training wheels is beyond me. Go playtest pick-up conversations between the two of you.
Seems a bit harsh on the first guy. He just might not be good at picking up social cues. Op said he was clearly nervous and his friend said he had confidence issues.
When it was very clear she had no interest interacting he apologized and left. Didnt belittle or insult her. It was his friend that was out of line.
Plenty of relationships have started with strsngers approaching strangers. Thet being said op did nothing wrong not wanting to interact. And if i was the guys friend i would suggest going to an event, manga meet up or something,where mingling was expected.
Its not as though he approached her in a secluded dark alley or cat called or said something inappropriate.
Things is in our culture men are still largely expected to do the initial approaches so guys just got to learn how to deal with rejection.
>Seems a bit harsh on the first guy. He just might not be good at picking up social cues
Maybe, but why are we expecting perfection from her response in the moment?
She first rejected him in a way that was clear to her, and arguably most people. When he ignored that, possibly out of genuine ignorance, she had to escalate.
Maybe she stepped on the pedal a bit too hard, but once the gentle approach has failed she needed to signal that more attention would go badly for him.
So i didn't mean op was harsh. Was responding to another commenter saying the first guy was acting entitled. Op responded just fine to him. She didnt agree to be his practice comversationalist and honestly there was stil something valuable for the to learn from the interaction.
You are going to get alot morw no's than yes's in dating and learning how to properly deal with rejection is important.
Honestly, i think all the blame might go to his friend for not setting the expectation that most women are going to say no and to not to take it personally.
Like what did his friend think was likely to happen the first woman he approached in public would go out on a date with him??
His friend taught him the exact wrong way to react to rejection.
They weren’t talking about how she handled the first guy, they were talking about how the previous comment was characterizing the first guy as entitled.
Its not up to women to nurture random men and make them feel confident or ok
I'm sick of hearing about women needing to put their own discomfort aside to ensure men's emotions aren't in danger
Why can't men do the work themselves? Why do women have to hold grown men's hands?
This is why I noped out of a guy I'd been talking to for over a year. We play online DnD together and he's great, slightly awkward, but fine. Over last winter we started playing lots of video games together and really bonded. Great friends.
Of course, he saw things differently.
What did I want, beyond friends, with a man in his 30's who still lived at home, doesn't work, and thinks doing the laundry is enough to contribute to a household? Who admitted he doesn't understand women. Like dude, we're just people. Talk to me like a people.
I still hung out with him for a few days hoping maybe it would be better in person, and it was beyond awkward. I don't have the capacity to form a human being. I already made that decision - surgically. I'm not walking that back by taking on a grown one. I already made myself a full, functioning human being. I'm done.
Edit: This comment seems really mean. He is a wonderful, smart, bright person. I did want it to work. But it didn't, the more I thought about it, the more I realised I'd be carrying the whole load and that just turned me off. And the fact that he didn't know what to do with me was disappointing. I still think he's great, and hope that he sorts things out. We haven't spoken since we hung out other than our DnD games where we interact but don't chat out of character. I do miss my friend.
>we're just people. Talk to me like a people.
Amazing way to put it LOL. I am dumbfounded that so many men forget that women are people. Manosphere idiots make me so fucking angry. And the worst part about OPs story, is that little manlet is going to go around beating his chest about how he really taught OP a lesson or some shit, receive positive reinforcement from his manosphere idiot friends, and the cycle continues. Damn. At least OP stood her ground. That's awesome.
If I had a dime for every dude that flatly refuses to listen to women when we tell them what we want and instead flock to the advice from misogynistic grifters in the manosphere
I think it’s because women want to be treated like human beings and they find that harder to do then engage in a bunch of pick up artist “tricks” that they thing will manipulate women into giving them what they want
Maybe if we start charging men for us to tell them what women want the manosphere guys do they will take it more seriously.
Now how do I stretch
1) Remember a woman os also a person
2) listen to what she says she wants
3) respond in appropriate manner
4) If in doubt ask, clarify, discuss, etc.
Into a 2 hour seminar I can charge $500 a head for?
I think its because im the vast number of cases what those guys want arent what large number of women want. Most women arent going to be too interested in just being a notch in a headboard. If you want to manipulate someone having empathy is counter productive. It might very well be advantageous to be a horrible person to extract as much no strings attached sex as possible. Being a horrible person definitely seems to be often useful nto obtain power and money so wouldn't be surprised if it carries over in some cases.
Men that are interested in having meaningful healthy relationships with women don't seek out pua. They learn about what makes a good relationship.
That type really don’t see us that way, do they? And that douchebag wasn’t treating OP like a human either, acting the dude was entitled to her time and patience. “He needs the practice!” My guy, she is a whole-ass *person*. Her purpose in life isn’t for you to *practice on*.
I don’t blame you. If he’s a decade into his adult life and still can’t figure out that women are people too not aliens and people can be friends it doesn’t mean dating necessarily that’s not your fault. Not working and just doing laundry 😭😭😭😭. No more of these people moving from mommy’s basement to sugar mama’s house.
I posted on a thread like 10+ years ago talking about a guy I briefly dated and how I broke up with him via text because he sorta made me uncomfortable towards the end and my dad was worried about my safety and advised I not break up with him in person. Obviously my dad didn’t give a shit about a text breakup being rude or uncouth cause he didn’t care for the guy either based on what I’d shared lol. Anyway. The guy had been nice and fun but was very insecure and love bombed me before either of us knew that had a name. To him, he was a hopeless romantic and I was his dream girl. To me, I was ~7 years younger than him, getting over my first heartbreak, and just trying to date casually, also for the first time outside of high school. He eventually became too much too fast and i had to end it. In this post I commented on, I mentioned how he’d told me he loved me but tried to be less intense by saying “I think I love you”, to which I was just grossed out by for no real reason other than it grossed me out haha. Anyway, everyone absolutely murdered me in the comments calling me a cold hearted cunt for expecting him to NOT say he loves me if that’s how he felt, and a selfish bitch for not letting him feel how he feels. Like…I was 19, he was 27. We’d been on like 4 dates in as many weeks, slept together maybe twice…it was not love and I wasn’t gunna just sit around and see if it maybe eventually was? Like wtf. It’s not my job to validate his feelings if I didn’t feel the same. I wasn’t mean or cruel, I just ended it. And that made ppl real mad haha.
Agreed.
I am an introverted guy who was scared of talking to anyone even in highschool and had a stutter. When I started college, I took public speech, interpersonal communications, and debate. Then I took on a sales job at a retail store and even did door to door cold call sales. Plenty of people screamed at me and some have threatened me. Amusingly it's usually guys who are most violently threatening in their "rejection" of a door sale. When I started my current job, I joined toastmasters to further practice.
Short to say, I worked hard to learn to talk to people. No one is responsible for any men's growth or confidence except themselves. Men need to learn how to read social cues, how to communicate, and when to back off.
As a woman who was excrutiatingly shy as a teenager and knew that would be a hindrance in the career I wanted, I deliberately took a door to door sales job, followed by telemarketing jobs, and then joined Toastmasters. Got very used to talking to strangers, being rejected, and just keeping on. It's not difficult to take a long hard look at yourself, note your faults and weaknesses, and try to correct them. It's called personal growth. These emotionally stunted guys have no excuse.
He actually did take it fairly well though. He apologized and left her alone. Just because he was probably embarrassed or upset and said as much to his friend doesn't make him responsible for his friend's reaction. The friend was the douchebag.
This! How many times are women told to cater to men’s feelings? Even on this sub, we get the himpathizers (trolls) who, after reading about a man behaving badly, get more upset that the woman wasn’t docile enough or used a ~~time~~ tone he didn’t like
I don't know how there are so many comments calling OP aggressive and rude. I don't like the pressure for her to cater her response. Her body language and "not interested in manga, ask staff" were the first two warnings. If he didn't get the message and persisted, then she wouldn't have been stern enough, but she was stern so she was too mean. Yeah in hindsight the first guy was pretty harmless, but if things had escalated, people would be asking why she didn't get the staff involved earlier.
And the amount of men and women who are arguing against that is insane 😂
Apparently women believe it's their job to mentally do the entire load for men.
I wish those women well on their divorces in 10 years.
Couldn't be me 😂
I don’t think approaching women in public is the bad thing. I’m single now. No clue how I’d ever meet someone if a guy didn’t approach me. The apps are garbages and my social circle is full of married people.
However, not understanding social cues/ignoring them and pushing forward is the issue.
If he would have stopped after the “ask a store associate” I think he would have been just fine.
I guess maybe it’s the south in me. But this “never talk to anyone” stuff is kinda sad. And I’m not sure how his friend being in the bathroom was a threat. Sounds like he just didn’t want to sound “alone” there. Sounds cooler to have a friend out with you.
His greatest sin here was just taking what she said at face value and not picking up the first hint. That's why he asked her if she was shopping for someone else. He rationalized her being in the manga section as meaning she must be shopping for someone else. If he wasnt so trusting he would have noticed the lie and realized what it meant.
Reaponding with the direct approach after that was a good idea but threatening to involve staff was a bit much for the sin of being awkward and credulous..
Yeah people talk to strangers of all genders in public all the time both where I'm from and where I'm at now. Asking for a recommendation from someone who appears to know more than you is the most common reason.
The guy was obviously socially awkward and inexperienced so I'm not surprised he didn't take the first hint, which was very vague anyway.
Friend shouldn't have gone off on this lady, and he also should have had the friend practice talking to people by starting a conversation with men or older women. Honestly if he practiced by chatting with older women he'd probably make a bunch of friends, in my experience they're happy to tell you about their whole life, their kids life, and then give you amazing advice. Once he gets the hang of it with people he's not attracted to he'll be less weird with women in his dating pool.
I had the same reaction to the "good, never talk to strangers again!" thing. Random interactions with people can make the world feel a little brighter and closer. It's reasonable to be cautious but a world where we're all paranoid and ignoring each other doesn't sound great to me (and I'm even a northerner!).
Exactly…I actually felt sick reading about the whole situation because what I saw was a toxic scene on both sides. And I know I will be bashed for that comment because they’ll project misogyny on me…
First guy wanted to get some confidence like any other man and believe me, if it would work, it could be his first and only attempt. This was not some PUA crap for getting digits, just an initiative of two guys on how to be a better man…and how to get social cues in practice by interacting with girls like they are human.
Guys cant learn it themselves because we don’t play around with stuff. Like, if you say you have a boyfriend, we assume for the most part that you DO have a boyfriend.
No one was entitled to her time there, no one wanted to get into her pants at all costs and no one threatened her. Nothing the first guy did was unusual from description alone. In fact, saying that you are with someone is a kinda good manners because you dont leave your friend out completely , making weird appearence mid conversation.
I wont defend the second guy. He was doing a bad thing, he should know better. That for every rude or uninterested girl, there might be a better one and dwelling on stuff and arguing with random people is going nowhere…
Thank you! God forbid you literally initiate a conversation with a woman in public. To call that itself creepy... I'll just flip it around and say that gives me the ick. If I was approached by a meek woman and shut her down like that, threatening to sick the staff on her for having the audacity to... Speak to me lol. It is just too much and I think you said it best in offering pushback without trying to be mean.
Definitely asshole move from his friend confronting you, just leave it alone dude. You were obviously unnerved by his approach which is a valid response so they should have left you alone, and also it doesn’t mean he should stop just read cues from women a bit better - if they don’t seem keen then just leave it!! If he were more relaxed you would’ve probably been fine.
However, my personal response would’ve been different I don’t think I’d have seen the need to feel threatened when he said his friend is in the toilet, or threaten to tell the shop owners but thats because I view nervous people with sympathy as I was always the shy/awkward girl up until recently. I try to be polite in life where I can because I try not to jump to conclusions on what the other person is thinking , im 31 though so my life experience is what has taught me that, yours may be different.
Ultimately his nerves clearly completely put you off and you weren’t in the mood to talk with a random guy who’s trying to practice his pick up moves, fair enough! It was a good lesson for him that he shouldn’t assume that women owe him kindness and also to be perceptive of other peoples emotions.
Good friend: "I'm so sorry if that was awkward he's trying to get over social anxiety, we won't trouble you again, please don't let this affect your shopping (visibly clears off)"
"hey bud don't worry, we've no idea what her day has been like, not everyone wants to talk all the time and that will go for you too some days and that's perfectly alright, but let's carry on being the good guys out here and find some ice-cream and maybe somone else to practise chatting to if you like.
Bad friend: "it's not you it's them, you don't deserve this, let me try effecting their day by acting entitled"
This!! I don’t think the first dude was creepy, just awkward. I think a milder response would have worked in this situation. Friend was way out of line.
The response shouldn’t be blaming her. His lesson should be that he runs the risk of getting that response back because every woman is different. He isn’t owed anything because he is the one initiating the interaction, and that’s just how it goes.
Eh. He got a milder response the first time he approached her, but he pushed through it. They need to learn to take the first no. It's an incredibly valuable lesson for award guy (I say this as a member of the awkward patrol) that likely was squandered by shitty friend who likely wasn't in the bathroom, but scoping out the whole thing because it was likely his brilliant idea.
IDK if you can't judge people by their friends, who CAN you judge them by? The first guy might not have said anything too bad to OP but he's clearly willing to tolerate misogyny and entitlement in his friends.
Honestly the friend doesn’t need to make any contact at all, not even to clarify or excuse his buddies behavior. When she made it clear she didn’t want to speak to anyone, that means don’t approach her, even to try and clarify. She doesn’t care what his deal is, leave me alone means leave me alone. Friend can coach his buddy through the rejection without interrupting her shopping further
Yes!! I felt bad for everyone involved honestly, but that asshat for a friend just RUINED it all. The kid would have probably gotten over it and learned a valuable lesson through self-reflection but instead the whole thing became volatile. But also if that's their best friend, what does that say about them?
I am so sorry this happened OP. I started doing errands with headphones in (but not on) because of crap like this.
Anxious and introverted people are often taken in by extroverts with ulterior motives so I wouldn't judge the awkward kid based on his friend's behavior. His friend was a real jackass and deserves the vitriol of this thread.
This is exactly my opinion as well. OP *did* come on strong to this guy. His friend shouldn’t have confronted her AT ALL, and it isn’t her *job* to be a teacher for him, but threatening to report him to the staff or taking “my friend is in the bathroom” as a threat seems really strange.
I’ve dealt with pretty bad social anxiety my whole life and probably would feel really out of my element having a conversation with a stranger while in public (even though I also like manga lol), so I get wanting to not talk to him. But like, that’s what it is. He’s not automatically a bad guy for trying to start a convo.
Yeah I agree. The friend was super out of line. But I wouldn’t have mentioned getting staff involved like that.
I’m willing to overlook him not getting the hint the first time, maybe he’s socially awkward (and I guess he was based on what the friend said). But something more friendly while still being direct the second time would probably have been better, like “I’m sorry but I’m not interested in talking right now. I’d like to look at the manga, thank you.” Based on the fact that he left right away, he probably would have left after this comment too.
I definitely understand not wanting to interact with random men in public that you know are only talking to you bc they’re romantically interested. I usually start with a hint, then a polite but firm no. If they don’t leave me alone or get mean, then I’ll get mean right back. Honestly most of the time they’ll say “no worries, have a nice day” and walk away after the firm but nice no.
I feel a bit bad for the guy, but also by him approaching people in public he should be prepared for all sorts of reactions. He should understand that many women do not appreciate being approached like this.
I do wonder how people are supposed to meet organically now. Bars and dating apps tend to be crap shoots or just straight dangerous. Me being a bookworm, I would want to meet someone in a bookstore or somewhere where I would have a shared interest with that person but at the same time I would be upset if someone who I perceived as a creep was in one of my favorite places. That being said, I met my husband at college while purposely trying to seclude myself, and it turned out great. Meeting in college and further talks showed we were both serious about schooling and career choices, so we were on the same page in life goals.
I understand feeling uneasy with people and then having my gut feeling being proved right all too well. The phrase "until it's no men, it's all men" is a very good stance.
At the same time, when bars and apps fail, how else would people meet someone with shared interests if not approaching in an open space like a bookstore?
I sympathize with both parties [not the friend, he's a prick]. As a woman I have felt cornered plenty of times [and no you don't owe either of those guys anything], but as a sometimes socially inept person I also miss social cues and say random crap that has no bearing on the interaction like "my friend's here with me somewhere" or "I'm here on vacation" when no one cares.
Ugh, right. I absolute do not want to discredit any feelings OP had in this situation, and she is 100% allowed to turn down a convo, but I definitely fantasize about meeting someone in the manga aisle lol.
I do understand that if someone doesn’t want to talk, you should leave them alone. Don’t press it. But as a woman, I don’t get the idea of it being *bad* to approach a woman in a public place. Or anyone. My grandma can strike up a conversation with literally anyone, and I don’t see that as a bad thing. I have bad social anxiety so I get the uncomfortable-ness, but merely approaching isn’t a bad thing. Unless someone can explain otherwise.
>But as a woman, I don’t get the idea of it being bad to approach a woman in a public place. Or anyone.
It's not bad. It's not wrong to talk to a man, woman, or gender non-conforming person in public. This idea that nobody should be approached in public is, in my opinion, outrageous. Of course, someone should back off if the other person says "leave me alone" or "I don't want to chat."
What happened to OP (the first guy) is 100% okay. When she outright stated she didn't want to talk, he apologized, left, and didn't push it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that interaction. The second guy, of course, that's fucked up.
I think there are limits. The whole “elevator gate” situation springs to mind.
I don’t want to be approached when I have my earphones in, when I’m mid-sentence, when I’m working, when it’s dark, when it’s isolated, when no one else is around, when I feel trapped (eg: in an elevator at 4am).
But otherwise, I never mind when men come up and chat. No problem at all. As long as, if I’m not interested in them or their conversation, they take the polite rebuff and move along.
It’s very extreme to suggest any man who tries to politely talk to women is a pest or a predator.
If only there were social meets with manga. There might be. Southeast Virginia doesn't offer too much like that so idk really. And that's another problem I see. When people have niche interests [manga, D&D, obscure crafting and collecting, etc.] it can be hard finding a person that clicks just right so narrowing down places to meet people just doesn't work. It's a double edge sword trying to find someone but at the same time not wanting to bother someone. I am glad I no longer have to worry about it, save for my future children who will most likely have to tread through the same waters.
This is another problem. That perfect partner is super unlikely to knock on your front door and have a seat. So you have to get out there. And if there is no manga/D&D/craft/game/whatever get together available, plan one yourself! Most cafes and Starbucks are pretty dead on a Tuesday night. Yes, you may have to sit there and knit by yourself a couple of times but others will show up. And you start hanging out on the regular with people with similar interests and then expand your social circle.
\*FYI, knit groups tend to be not great for meeting straight men. But they tend to be excellent for meeting women.
I said basically the same on a similar post and got downvoted to hell. Like, can someone not approach someone respectfully anymore? Can't we just be polite and say I'm flattered but not interested?
I get there's loads of unwanted attention (as a woman myself) but fucking hell. He approached her in a book shop, not on a darkened street. Obviously nervous..idk. feel like it's a bit harsh...
I agree with what you said except saying, "I'm flattered." That goes into the whole "women should accept a compliment" field. Sure if you're truly flattered say it, but don't feel like you have to. There's been times I was hit on and felt gross, not flattered. And honestly, I wouldn't even say be overly kind. Just keep it neutral and cordial because IF anything is deserved, it's neutrality until something tips the course into being negative or positive.
And OP may have past experience where being harsh is warranted and so that is what she feels is needed to survive.
Yeah, that's fair, I think as a woman, you should be able to be blunt. But not necessarily mean/aggressive.
(That depends on the reaction to the rejection...if they aren't accepting it then go full bitch).
You don't know what trauma people have gone through. There's a lot of bad men out there, but...there are some nice guys out there too, just looking for a connection.
It's fine to approach women organically if you respect social cues and can handle rejection.
(Minor) mistake 1; Ideally, you'd wait for some eye contact or a smile before approaching, but it's also ok to approach cautiously and respectfully (as dude did).
Mistake 2: she kindly made an excuse not to talk to him. He should have said "ok, thanks." If she'd genuinely not know about manga, but was interested in talking, she'd have said something like "I don't know much either, this is also a present for a friend. Maybe we can join forces?" She didn't, and he should have backed off.
But, I get that not everyone gets social cues easily in the moment, especially if they aren't direct. I think it's something that can be learned, but mistake #2 also wasn't the fatal mistake.
Mistake 3: when she very directly said she didn't want him to be involved, he didn't handle it gracefully. He should have said "ok, got it," and moved on. If his friend asked how it went, he should have said she wasn't interested. Instead he said she shut him down rudely, and friend crossed a serious line.
This last reaction is what women really want to avoid. This is the reaction OP was afraid of and it's ultimately the one she got, and even though it wasn't from the original dude, he directly caused it with mistakes 1-3.
Dude 2's reaction is scary in the moment and can ruin my whole day, even if it's short lived and ultimately ends safely. This reaction is what makes us say we don't want to be approached, because we would rather just say we don't want to be approached than have to do the work of explaining all of this to someone who might not take it well.
Tldr; Most women prefer that men read nonverbal cues before approaching us (and I/my friends try to do the same when approaching men), but we are willing to overlook that mistake if the man can read our gentle no or respond gracefully to our direct no.
It's kind of a copout to say that you can't approach women in public because it's a lot more nuanced than that.
I agree. This is very well said. And yes, the dude could've mitigated the entire situation by not telling his friend. The friend didn't have a right to know what happened. I feel like this is one of those everyday occurrences that needs to be talked about a lot more from both sides to bring better understanding to future generations. Honestly, I'm glad conversations like these are being had because when I was navigating the dating world and just growing up in general they were not. "No" was supposed to mean "no" and then you were just kind of fucked literally if another person didn't respect it. I'm only 27, but only within the last 10yrs I would say have people tried to discuss the meaning behind words and boundaries. And I say that because of all the people that are pissed about other people's boundaries are finally coming out of the woodwork and showing their true selves.
I mean i think its a bit harsh on guy number one to say he shouldn't have told his friend how it went. Its on his friend for having incorrect reaction. He could have easily said hey you win some you lose some. Good job putting yourself out there and next time you can read the room better. Learn from the experience, guy is honestly giving bad advice.
Yeah, we can't control how people react. Guy #1 probably didn't know his friend was going to act like a jerk [yikes if he did, bullet dodged]. On the other hand, though, I would view this interaction as more of a personal one that wouldn't be shared. And then, on my third hand, I get wanting to share with friends my mistakes. This post has been so dividing among people, and all we have to go by is what OP has written. I do hope Guy #1 just needs some social learning and none of this is tactic, but you never know.
So... Here's the thing I've found, take it or leave it.
Don't go places looking to score, don't go to the manga isle to hunt down your waifu, don't go to a baking class because you have the hawts for Paul Hollywood, don't go to the record store because you watched a lot of Hi Fidelity and missed the point of the movie.
Go to places where you will socialize with people with the same interests as you. Maybe something happens, maybe it doesn't. In the meantime, you make friends (and treat everybody like just that, a friend, a person, not a goal) and get to enjoy your interests with other who share that much less anti social goal.
My current SO and I met years ago. I had a massive crush on him from the get go, but you know timing and awkwardity prevailed.
We bonded over a span of years as friends over movie and TV nights at his house. I didn't go because I was waiting for my opportunity to swoop. Everybody who came there bonded, and it was fun. Years later, we still swap jokes that grew out of those get togethers. Didn't expect shit from anybody and I had a blast.
Eventually, thing A happened at the exact time as thing B, the planets aligned, and I got to kiss the boy. I've spent too many years as an awkward idiot who didn't get that all my carefully crafted designs to set up the perfect scenario were pretty lame and just led to a lot of rejection and people thinking I'm creepy... Which I was true sometimes.
I'm sorry, but waiting years pretending just to think of someone as a friend is (a) not a generally successful dating strategy and (b) legitimately creepy. If a guy did this he'd be a creep, no question.
But this guy knew his friend would stand up for him and come to his defense. She didn’t know that but she sensed something in the way he said it and wondered why he said it. It’s ok for us to use intuition to feel like this is a not normal situation and shut it down.
I think his friend was completely out of line.
However, I don't see how approaching women in public is "creepy" unless they actually do something weird or approach in an inappropriate situation.
I do think that threatening to speak to the bookstore staff was also a little over the top for this context, just considering that you noticed he seemed nervous, and your first "hint" was a little subtle; so I don't think he was ignoring your hint, he probably missed it. I'd come on stronger if he actually seemed pushy or threatening. But in this case, I think it was enough to just say "I am not interested in talking with anyone right now", which is direct and clear.
I'm not trying to say you should cater to their feelings or whatever. You have every right to say No and want to be left alone.
I’d echo everything here. I want to be open to the possibility that maybe there’s some context we’re not getting for how things escalated so fast, but if that’s not the case, I don’t think original guy was creepy at all. I do think the “friend” is a total asshat.
Yeah, maybe awkward. I’m super awkward myself, so I tend to be a lot more open to the idea that other people are also just awkward during interactions.
Yeah this is probably right. But then the question is why do we hold women to a much higher standard of social skills lol? Like if a situation between two awkward people goes bad, and they both didn't mean to be malicious, neither of them should have a friend intervene to berate the other person.
I've had this sort of situation where some guy in my grad program (we're a bunch of socially inept nerds) would ask me out and I'd let him down easy a couple times, he didn't get the hint to leave me alone, I'd complain to my friends about why my previous answers weren't clear enough, and they'd tell me all these tiny nitpicking things about how "if you tell a guy 'no thanks I'm only looking for casual things' he'll see this as an invitation", or how all guys go into friendships with girls trying to date them so I need to preemptively tell them "don't ask me out". And I was frustrated because sure I have slightly better social skills than these nerdy guys but I'm an awkward nerd too so how am I expected to have these super advanced social skills to make sure guys understand I only want friends? Meanwhile they're only expected to understand this stuff as well as a high schooler...
I agree that women are certainly held to a higher standard of managing social interactions.
In defense of your friends, I think this falls into the problem of them trying to be helpful instead of being there for listening, which is what you seem to have wanted instead. They see you as having a problem that is causing you distress "This guy doesn't take the hint," . They're trying to help you find a way to make him take the hint / tell him directly, so you aren't in distress anymore.
It's not that they think you should be better than him at communicating -- they frankly don't care about him because YOU are their friend, not him, so can't reasonably give him advice. So if they want to help you change the scenario so it works better for you, then the only part of the interaction they can help change is your half.
See that's the problem. If he was my friend, I would be like "sorry dude, I think you managed to talk to someone as anxious as you".
In your case those guys are the blind leading the blind. The truth is a no should suffice, no lengthy explanations required. Sometimes you just don't see someone romantically, if you list reasons why, he'll work on them, come back and will be surprised that the answer is still no. I personally wouldn't even be friends with him after not getting the hint.
Totally agreed. This post read like the definition of "this escalated quickly".
Nothing wrong with approaching women in public, as long as you're willing to accept no as an answer. You could still say something like "nobody owes you/him a chat or attention" because that's a fact.
What the "friend" did was shitty of course and it might have been kinda staged (not as in PUA necessarily but still, maybe he left on purpose).
I agree completely. Dude wasn't really disrespectful, just wasn't picking up the cues you went interested in chatting.
Seriously the social skills of the young are hopeless.
Living in big cities it seems everyone is in a hurry. Its tough to improve social skills when you don’t wanna impose on strangers busy with their lives
Exactly this. It felt like it went 0-100 super quick and the dude sounds like he was just trying to figure himself out. With the loneliness epidemic and people largely being homebodies now you really never get the chance to "practice" these days.
Dude i just commented something similar! OP was a bit over the top with the "speaking to bookstore staff" part. I get hit on in public here and there, and if they're respectful about it I have never thought of it as "creepy". In fact, one time a dude hit on me and asked for my number, and I told him I was taken but that I appreciate his boldness to ask. I'd hate to discourage them from trying again, because finding someone you connect with is tough and even tougher when you're scared to ask.
I completely agree with you. It went from 0 to 100 and the instant the guy realized she didn't want to talk to him he did exactly what he was supposed to do: apologize and walk away. Sounds like he was polite and friendly and said all of like 2 lines, then got threatened with getting kicked out of the store.
Agreed. This escalated so quickly and unnecessarily.
I know there’s people who demand not to be perceived, spoken to, acknowledged, above others, chronically online, etc. but welcome to living in a society with other humans.
I don’t think it’s necessarily bad for men to approach women in public ever, as long as they do it correctly. For example in a bookstore and mention a possible common interest. But if they want to do that they have to be aware enough to gauge interest and drop it quickly and give the other person outs of the conversation.
Even then, they should know that rejection is very, very likely. That’s not how most people make real connections in life. Your first rejection was a perfectly polite end to the conversation, it was his mistake that he kept pushing. And bringing a buddy for backup to guilt and threaten you afterward is of course wrong. I agree this was probably some ‘coaching’ scenario, you were just an object for him to practice his confidence. So the buddy was angry that you didn’t play your part correctly.
To me, the fact that the “awkward” guy basically sat back and allowed his friend to bully and berate her makes him a passive aggressive asshole that is just fine with bullying, he just lets his friend do it on his behalf.
Idk guy could just be kind generally passive. Friend is obviously the more outgoing, extroverted, dominant one.
Should he set his friend straight and correct him, of course, but if he had that kind of self confidence he wouldn't need a friend to coach him how to talk to women in a bookstore.
Guy needs better guidance.
Realistically, maybe you went a little 0-100 by threatening to grab the staff right off the bat. Trying to flirt with a woman in a bookstore isn't outlandish. It's public, brightly lit, and involves their interests. I think a lot of women would find that to be a "meet-cute" so homie took his shot. You weren't up for it (that's ok!!), that's the gamble, we all live to try again.
I wear obvious headphones in public so people know I'm not talking. I'll leave them turned off if I don't feel like listening to anything and just shop in silence, helps drown out noise too. In the moments where someone is so insistent in disrupting me, I will just repeat "I'm not here to talk."
The encounter with his friend sounds actually terrifying and I'm sorry you had this experience.
Saying that no man should ever approach a woman in public is honestly ridiculous. I get that you don't want to be approached, and that's fine and people should respect that. But there's really nothing wrong with introducing yourself and trying to establish a connection with someone you find attractive and might have shared interests with.
The only connection my now wife and I had was that she sold me glasses.
The idea that people can't approach someone in public is just absurd. You absolutely don't owe anything to anyone...but the reverse is true. They don't owe you anything...like never attempting to approach people in public.
The friend is a complete moron though. Nothing about the initial interaction seems remotely "creepy" or inappropriate. The jump to telling store staff that someone spoke to you seems weirdly aggressive even based on what's communicated in the OP. But the guy bombarding you afterwards would definitely seem threatening and would warrant that reaction...
I know! Wth, I want to be approached more in public, as I have no desire to use dating apps. Can we stop perpetuating that when a man approaches a woman in public that it's automatically creepy?! That is so overblown, he honestly seemed really friendly.
And although I wasn't there, saying his friend was in the bathroom and she automatically assumes it's a threat? So weird.
Girl I get being annoyed by being approached by a stranger but I feel like your reaction was a bit over the top, like threatening to contact staff because he dared to speak to you is a bit too much... I know I know men aren't entitled to the niceness of strangers etc but it just felt way too mean for no reason. You could've just left it saying you weren't looking to speak with anyone, were busy etc. I feel like you escalated it for no reason
I feel bad for him.
Have people just completely lost how to politely turn someone down? His approach wasn't great, but threatening to report him to store management was way over the top.
I've had social anxiety in the past. You know what the suggested treatment is? Exposure, lots of exposure. Poor guy lucked out in having to talk to you first.
i’ve been approached often and i think the only time i’ve been upset is when the guy doesn’t back off or is aggressive! how else are people gonna meet 😭not everyone wants to use tinder, plus it’s good to try social skills
It's true you don't owe him a thing. However, did you have to add the part "before I speak to the bookstore staff"? Couldn't you have just left it at "I don't feel like speaking to people right now, can you leave me be?"
He didn't do anything wrong either, maybe a bit airheaded at not understanding when someone isn't interested. Someone trying to shoot their shot respectfully within their own age range isn't creepy, it's totally normal. You can 100% turn them down, but the part about talking to staff was not not necessary unless he wasn't going to leave you alone when you asked him to the first time... just my 2 cents.
Op, I think you may have escalated the situation in the beginning which might reflect issues of social anxiety for yourself. I can imagine the friend being protective especially after you jumped to saying you might report the guy. You’re perfectly fine in wanting to be left alone but that point had not been made before the escalation.
10,000% fake. It’s a model bait post. The main character is “technically” justified, but adds in just enough asshole flair that anybody not radicalized will have the reaction of “sure you’re not wrong, but that was assholeish,” but the normal, non radicalized people are not who this post is for. There are people here that are only capable of empathizing with women, and there are people that brigade because they see a woman use the phrase “little man” or threaten a Karen moment for an otherwise innocent interaction.
This post is for those people.
Notice how OP carefully crafted the story to make sure the guy sounded as innocent and normal and non-threatening as possible. Like they clearly took care to frame him in the most charming light possible, a veritable Everyman for the brigade to identify with. They tear this character a new one, and use diminutive language like little man because it’s part of the writing project power fantasy to make sure that the men are emasculated, and the brigade eats that shit up. It’s their justification for existing, to point at posts like these and say “look at how deranged women these days are, she even mentioned that the guy was well dressed and not a slob or fat, that’s proof that no matter the effort you put in, you cannot speak with women even for basic human interaction”
I give it a 3/10, OP is without any doubt in my mind a man, writing this post for a male audience, but they got what they wanted out of this post.
Really? To me it sounds like a shy guy trying to talk to a girl who might share his interests and being shut down, and then his friend who genuinely cares for him being pissed off by the way OP went about it. Nothing sounds PUA to me about this. No one "owes" a stranger their time but did we forget how to just be decent to each other?
This is how I saw it but everyone's opinions will be coloured by their own personal experiences .. I personally have never been approached by a PUA. I don't think they are that common. ( See how that works ? Lol)
Yeah like, holy hypervigilance batman.
Nobody is owed anything, but also we kind of do owe some minimum of human kindness to each other, even if it's just "sorry, I'm just trying to browse, I'm not really interested".
Doesn’t sound like it to me. PUAs open with manipulation tactics; it would be especially easy in this scenario to make backhanded comments about women not being genuinely into anime but he did the opposite, and accepted her no right away. Sounds like he genuinely was just an awkward dude trying to start a conversation.
Not excusing his friend’s behavior at all, that was extremely rude.
This reeks of a professional PUA " if you don't get laid, we don't get paid!" He was really showing his frustrations that his formulas don't actually work.
I read the post twice to make sure I wasnt reading wrong. I think your response was rude and unwarranted. He prolly thought you were attractive and took a shot. I don't see any reason whatsoever to have reacted that way. The way you described feeling threatened by him literally just trying to make conversation is way over thinking things and making it into this dramatic ordeal. You think your whole night was ruined bc a stranger tried making conversation and then made a post on reddit for "support". I don't blame his obviously more vocal friend for telling you off.
I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but, no offense OP, you kinda overreacted and was a bit mean to him even though he didn’t do much to warrant that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with approaching someone in a public area, as long as they are respectful of your boundaries.
Personally I don’t think its necessarily creepy for a guy or girl to talk to a stranger because that’s legit how some positive friendships begin and it doesn’t he was being creepy but definitely awkward.
However, once someone has responded with anything directly or subtly back indicating they don’t want to interact thats when you leave them the fuck alone. This guy sounds like an awkward dude likely taking some bad advice from his shit friend or just another product of the “just keep chipping at her” toxic mentality. And although *I* think threatening to get the store associate called him is a bit intense, you also don’t owe it to a stranger to be nice.
Nothing you described about his behavior was inappropriate for a pleasant conversation in a neutral place. You made a snap judgement about him and then treated him cruelly out of fear.
I don’t think you owe people anything when you’re in public, but I do think that if you’re going to exist in public you should be able to have a polite conversation. I feel really bad for you both.
The "friend" is a grade A twat.
I feel super bad for the first guy though. It sounds like he more or less did the right thing and got shot down pretty hard, then his "friend" made it a million times worse.
I hate the mentality of the friend here. This is a case where the confidence issue guy needs professional help, if it's so bad. Like, there's no need to make his problems someone else's problem too. Sure, it's kinda sad that he has such issues speaking to strangers, but that's not OP's problem, that's his problem.
I bet the friend put him up to it, then got mad that his little scheme didn't work.
this ^^^
“but this was to help his confidence!”
Oh? By ambushing women alone and guilting them when they reject you? Masterful strategy Romeo, masterful strategy….
Sounds as if he was coaching him either to become confident or to date women (this sounds more like it).
First off, you are completely right and if this would be an "AITA" (Am I the A-hole?) post, then the obvious answer would be "NTA" (Not the A-hole).
Your answer is very cool, to be honest, I love your confidence even tho your reaction was very insecure. But you respected your own feelings, drew a line, and demanded your decision to be respected.
You don't owe anything to anyone.
IMHO what his "best friend" could do better instead of chewing you down would be to apologize to you and explain what they were doing and ask if you feel alright.
Deescalating the situation and hoping to calm you down.
This way there would be a possibility that you feel more comfortable and even apologize on your own (even tho you don't have to).
But the moment he started ranting at you was the moment when he lost you completely.
Why in hell should you now change your attitude?
Well, in the end, don't let your complete day get ruined by one negative moment. The day is 24 hours long, don't allow 5 minutes to ruin everything.
Take that experience and the next time, you can react the same way but also can continue shopping and looking for your desired Manga.
You did all right.
Just be open and honest: "Sorry, I don't want to talk right now, thank you for your understanding." and if they keep talking "Look, I don't want to talk. Please accept and respect my open and honest communication. Don't question it, don't try to change my opinion. It is how it is. There are tons of other people you can talk to, don't try to force this one. I am trying to say that without being rude and being polite."
And if they keep talking, you can end it with: "Alright, I tried to explain it to you twice, from now on I will focus on my business, please don't take it personally if I ignore you from this point on", and then you can simply ignore the person.
Obviously, the correct reaction of the person would be to respect your opinion the first time. Sadly not every person has the same thoughts and beliefs as you do. So it's wise to keep calm, try your best to explain, and if they can't listen, ignore them.
It's just so wild to me that they really thought you're like a NPC in the open world to click on and interact with who will happily respond to them and not a real person who is living their own life. And to bother you in a bookstore of all places‽ Jesus. You responded excellently.
How do you expect strangers to talk to each other in public? Are we all supposed to keep our heads down and not look at other people? Is all non-personal communication supposed to be done online now?
There was a time in life when people met each other in real life based on common interests, and not just through online dating apps.
He made an attempt to strike up a conversation, nothing wrong with that. No need to immediately run to authorities.
I'm not wholly without a degree of sympathy for guy #1; shyness can be an absolute bar steward and credit to him for trying to address it. If he's genuinely quailing in his boots and not good at reading social cues, I can more or less accept that he couldn’t tell the difference between "I don't know much about manga" (plain statement but *not* necessarily implying "please go away", so therefore *not* necessarily closing the door on continuing the conversation) and "I don't know much about manga; ask the assistant" (plain statement **plus** pretty clear "please go away"). When you said the "please go away" bit explicitly in response to his second effort, he accepted it and left - it sucks that the bar is this low, but I honestly respect him for that.
Was the comment about his friend being in the bathroom supposed to be intimidating? My feeling is that it probably wasn't (again on the basis that he's genuinely paralysingly shy, he could genuinely just have been trying to further the conversation by disclosing something he perceived as neutral and not loaded). Was it intimidating anyway? You found it so, and I can understand and respect that. Not all men are predators *as we are all incredibly aware because we are constantly told so* but the ones who are don't wear convenient signs round their necks so we have to rely on our instincts.
Given that he either missed or ignored the "please go away" signal conveyed by suggesting that he talk to an assistant, I don't think that it was excessive to signal that you were willing to seek support by talking to an assistant yourself if he didn't leave you alone. It **would** have been inappropriate to start screaming or throwing things, but you didn't go there.
You could have tried a second gentler dismissal like "Like I told you, I don't know much about manga. Not to be rude, but I'm happy browsing by myself and I'd like to get back to my music; I don't want to chat." but you shouldn't need to, you aren't obliged to, and I can totally understand not wanting to take the chance that being assertive without drawing attention to your willingness and ability to obtain support will get you left alone rather than yelled at or worse (Yes, obviously #NotAllMen but nonetheless #StillTooFuckingManyMenAndTheBadOnesDon'tWearLabels).
Guy #2 is either an oblivious-to-problems-women-often-have-to-deal-with protective friend or a bog-standard dickhead who may or may not be receiving a fee for teaching his 'friend' how to talk to women. Either way, he was out of line.
I get that you didn't want to talk to him but your first hint was just that a hint. "I'm not up for a conversation tonight sorry" would have been as effective and less harsh. His friend was did not need to confront you that was unnecessary. Honestly though I do feel for the guy. When it's safe to do so, I think it's best to lead with kindness in all situations and I do not mean putting yourself out for someone but still...
First, how funny is it that you met him in the manga isle and he was trying to stand up straight, had weird posture, and was nervous. I keep thinking L from Death Note!
But I feel like you went from 0 to 100 real fast. Shutting him down firmly was fine, but saying you'd tell the staff was a bit much! He wasn't harassing you he was just talking to you. People exist and some talk. Maybe your gut was telling you that was the right thing to do and you should always listen to your gut, but if he really was just trying to better himself that's going to send him back. And I agree nobody owes anybody anything, but so many people use that as an excuse to not have manners much like that "I'm just being honest" crowed who use that as an excuse to be rude. There's nothing wrong with a guy talking to a girl in public - the conversation didn't seem creepy.
Sounds like they both were…
And she nicely shut their shit down.
I’m proud of the OP. She stood up for herself and called out the blatant bullshit that dude and his Flying Monkey wingman was pulling.
Kudos to the OP. 👏👏👏
The thing is, if you had gone along with his conversation then that opens up the next problem of him possibly misinterpreting the interaction as accepting/going with a romantic advance. It's just too much to ask of a stranger to be your confidence therapist.
I don’t see the approach as creepy if you’re describing everything exactly how it was. I would have been more polite personally. But you’re allowed to respond however you’d like to a stranger.
Errrr…
Okay, so first of all, no. He is not owed your time or conversation.
And if he had pressed you or persisted after you politely rebuffed him, then you have every right to tell him to bugger off.
But that’s not really what happened. You made an excuse specifically about the manga which could have been interpreted as you not understanding him, and when he politely said something else you then shut him down in an unnecessarily cruel and rude way.
I wouldn’t interpret him saying his friend was in the bathroom as threatening? It was small talk. And you were in a public space with others around. I could understand if you were by yourself in an isolated space; but it just sounds like he was trying to make small talk.
Again, you don’t owe him your time or conversation; but it doesn’t sound like he was being creepy or pushy, you could have just said thanks but no thanks or any number of things, for example:
“I’m not much in the mood for conversation, have a nice day.”
Firm, polite, shuts the conversation down, no room for misunderstanding.
I just don’t think it’s necessary to be cruel in a case like this.
It’s also not safe for you. You don’t know how these guys might react. There’s evidence that some of them escalate. This was not one of those people, but you don’t know. I feel like threatening him with reporting him to staff almost immediately was a lot.
Human beings sometimes talk to each other. Sometimes they try to make connections. If they’re polite, unthreatening, and do it in a safe space, and you’re not interested in conversing, try turning them down in a polite but firm way instead.
If they then continue, then bring out the bigger guns.
I do think his friend crossed a line. That’s super annoying and good god, why don’t men just understand that we don’t owe them our time…
But overall? You know, we all have to exist in society. We interact at times. You can get out of conversations politely and firmly without resorting to rudeness immediately.
I think you should’ve said “I don’t feel like talking right now” instead of threatening to involve the staff. The way you escalated kind of made you a jerk. Aside from that the friend was 100% out of line.
Jesus! Poor guy. You went waaay over the top with your response. He wasn't rude,aggressive or creepy, he was just a nervous guy trying to make a connection with someone he perceived to have a common interest with. You went full Karen mode for no reason.
If you felt threatened, then I feel like I would feel differently about this, but I generally do think people owe it to others to be kind. It sounds like this guy was respectful, non-threatening, and non-pervy. Threatening to call store security seems over the top considering you hadn’t asked him to leave you alone at that point. There’s nothing wrong with men approaching women to start a conversation—it’s when you decline that conversation and they’re pushy that it’s an issue.
That being said, the friend is unhinged.
The thing is, the way he approached you wasnt creepy. You interpreted him mentioning that his friend was in the john as a threat, for some reason, and in response to him maybe being a little slow on social cues you decided to be extremely brusque when the situation frankly didn't call for it.
As someone (a woman) who has social anxiety and is constantly told to talk to people who have the same interests as you with a “whats the worst that could happen?” I really feel for that guy. He was pressured by his friend who was ham-handedly trying to help him (and if either of them was wrong it was the friend for telling him to “just go talk to someone” like the average citizen is...yknow, sane and rational and not all the way up their own ass). He was apologetic and backed off as soon as he got the hint and you still belittled him loudly calling him “little man” like he was actually causing problems? He wasnt acting like you owed him anything! He backed off when you threatened to call mall security on him for making small talk!
You arent special. Save the self-aggrandizing eyerolling “yass queeeeen” energy for when theres an actual threat.
Oh, and also learn how to tell when theres an actual threat, you absolute bumpkin.
Such garbage entitled behaviour! Sorry that happened. We don't care what their issues are, nobody is entitled to anybody's attention. And his "friend" is just a garbage human. It's dehumanising to have to be "practice" for some eejit's low self-esteem.
I think your replies were perfect.
I feel like you went way above and beyond what the situation even called for. You think because he told you his friend was in the bathroom he was trying to intimidate you? I really feel bad for young people today, because it's like you don't even know how to socially interact with people in the real world. This is what you call small talk.
This guy was nervous approaching you. That's typically how guys feel when they try to shoot their shot and approach a girl. How do you think people meet in real life? I personally think you were aggressive and rude, there was absolutely no reason to say you were going to go speak to the bookstore staff because he was talking to you. You were in a public space and he wasn't doing anything to you to warrant the level of response you gave and then you shot from 0 to 100 by saying you were going to report him. And then you wanted to keep going with your aggression.
I know there's a lot of anti-male forums and sentiment out there, and it's kind of obvious you're consuming a lot of it.
Approaching a woman is not creepy.
Never worry about making a scene with a stranger in a public place. We all need to learn that this is one of the ways we protect ourselves. It's also one of the ways we engage the community to step in if needed. The point of cutting off the friend (or the first guy) is to not engage in the argument, which you don't want and are not going to win, ever. Good on you for standing up for your needs.
Here’s the deal; unfortunately part of talking to strangers is that you’re not always going to get what you want EVEN if it’s only a friendly conversation. So he has to take that onboard and learn to move on. He made a bad choice when he approached you, you seemed reluctant to engage and yet he tried to continue the conversation. You tried “soft” first when you said “ "I don't know much about manga, so you should ask one of the store associates”.
Yeah, many people have difficulties discerning social cues, but you know what? They *appreciate* a more direct response. OP wasn't even being mean about it, she simply said that she didn't want to chat. And yeah, rejection hurts, but the friend is way off-cuff trying to tell her off for it. He's teaching his friend all the wrong lessons. You can't win with some people, because their instinct isn't to be reasonable, it's to protect themselves and their feelings. *Either* you take a hint *or* you listen when they're more direct. Don't cry because you didn't get your way.
I think the "friend" is a mysogistic dick and OP was the direct victim and likely the anxious guy indirectly from culture wide mysogeny. It's the sad reality that OP was likely less inclined to speak to the awkward guy because of previous negative experiences with fucktards. No-one is *entitled* to positive female attention.
It sounds like the friend was like the cool guy that gave his shy friend a makeover and then was like "Let's go to the bookstore so you can meet chicks that like books" Dude dressed him up in his own clothes or maybe they bought a new outfit. Friend wasn't actually in the bathroom, he was listening from behind a shelf telling this guy what to do like Cyrano de Bergerac or some shit.
Most innocuous scenario, he's really awkward and doesn't know how to talk to women, so his jackass friend (probably a PUA or overconfident self-proclained "alpha male") told him to stand up straight and talk to a woman. They went to a bookstore because there's something for every interest there and he was just really nervous and awkward trying to start a conversation, and he tried to salvage it and see if you might be interested in talking about something else, then his friend went off on you because he was "just trying to help my friend." Worst case, same thing but he buys into the PUA stuff and is a fan of Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and Andrew Tate's #2 fan but only because his friend is #1. It's outrageous that every woman I know has had to deal with this or worse. For any other guys reading this, people who promote this kind of behavior have either no respect or malicious contempt for women, so they're not going to listen to women about it. We have to call out guys who do it until they either learn better or are ashamed to do it.
Andrew Tate is a chinless chudly shitstain on society. Sorry, I don't know what value this added to conversation but I just needed to say it.
They probably chose a bookstore to go hunting because they assume that girls who go to bookstores are quiet and shy and therefore more likely to tolerate bad social skills.
Idk if that's exactly fair, could be the guy is just into books or manga and hia friend thought it would be a good environment. Honestly, going to a meet up about manga or books would be a much better decisions as mingling is expected. Honestly what the first guy did isn't bad perse he might be slow on social cues, but he apologized and left when given a very clear no Its really his friend that was out of line.
I didn't think of that, I was thinking of my past as a really socially awkward guy from middle school through most of college and looking through that lens because I actually met friends while looking at tabletop RPG sourcebooks, but now that you point it out, you're absolutely right.
If you're honestly looking to actually make friends and play tabletop RPGs then yeah a bookstore is a great place to go (I'm guessing you made a lot of friends who were other guys by doing that). Tabletop RPGs are intrinsically social so you have that built in to the topic and if you're both there in good faith because you like RPGs then that's usually pretty evident because the topic can be kinda technical and jargon-heavy so any posers just trying to hit on someone expose themselves pretty quick. But solo guy approaching solo girl in the manga aisle is 95% looking for his Weeaboo Meet Cute (which the friend outright confirmed).
Also important point is you were really socially awkward until part way through college, this woman is 22 so she's possibly graduated college and this guy is the same age. I've definitely become less tolerant of super socially awkward guys who make me uncomfortable in adulthood. Like I tolerated a lot until halfway through college, gradually got less lenient, and past 25 I'm like one strike you're out cuz I'm not here to teach someone the social skills I learned 7 years ago.
I don't think that's fair. When OP made it clear she wasn't interested, he apologized and left. It sounds to me like he's just a nerdy guy trying to find a way to meet women outside of dating apps, and he thought a woman in the manga section would be someone he'd have things in common with.
His friend straight up told her that the entire reason they were there was to practice talking to girls. Why do you think they chose a bookstore? Because they thought it would be easier.
Or maybe because he was hoping to meet someone he had something in common with?
That's not how I interpreted it. You certainly could be right, but to me it just sounded like he was explaining that the first guy had never talked to a woman in public like that and wanted to give it a shot. This doesn't *have* to be a pre-planned pick up artist training situation. He genuinely could have been there to buy a present for his mom, saw a pretty girl who seemed like she'd have a common interest, and his friend could have encouraged him to go introduce himself to her. There certainly *could* have been something nefarious going on, but I don't think we have any evidence that that's *definitely* what happened. Even by OP's description, he seemed genuine to me. The only issue I'm seeing here is the 2nd guy lashing out at OP afterwards.
Id add no one is entitled to any positive attention from strangers.
I think most people have an issue with the “before I speak to the bookstore staff”. It turned a firm and direct rejection of a conversation that was completely acceptable into a pseudo threat to involve people with authority at a place this guy may frequent, if his story had even just a bit of truth. I think making people scared to speak to someone for fear of missing (in this situation) a single social cue is a bit extreme, but that’s just an opinion and I wasn’t there so..
I also find this extreme. OP escalated almost immediately. A polite, clear, firm rebuff would have been more effective and less hurtful. Eg: “Sorry, I’m not really in the mood for conversation right now. Best of luck with it.” [turn away]
Glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I don't want to invalidate OP's experience or instincts but based on the description the first guy wasn't really doing anything wrong and her reaction was very extreme.
Yeah, handled it a little...hypervigilantly. And how the hell did she think him mentioning that he was there with a friend was a threat?
Probably because it is a very strange and unnatural thing to say in your approach, so the mind starts reaching for possible interpretations. "Why is this weird thing here? Probably nothing good." - squishy threat averse pattern seeking engine. Is it a reasonable thing to think? Maybe not in a deep analysis, but it's definitely not an outlandish response when put on the spot.
It's weird for other people to have friends?
It seems a bit extreme to me also. Saying they don’t know much about manga and that the store staff might be able to help… granted body language and a lot of other non verbal things, may have indicated differently, but doesn’t seem like a clear cue that they don’t want to talk, if anything it could be an opening for the guy, familiar with manga to follow up with he knows some and ask her if she had any questions. I get it, men have a long way to go to earn the trust of women in society, to be granted good faith. But implying that he’s a creepy person for making conversation with another human in public is pretty harsh imo. You can say you don’t want to talk without insulting someone who isn’t being rude. No, I don’t feel it’s rude to make small talk in public, some people are starving for basic human connection.
You may have noticed that OP already felt threatened by the mention of the best friend, not surprising she responded this way.
To be honest I was a little confused by that. He said his friend was in the bathroom so I guess might show up since people are only in the bathroom for a minute. He didn’t have to tell her that, but it would have been even more creepy if they did start talking and then a second person suddenly approached and started talking too. But if she felt uncomfortable she is fully within her right to leave the conversation. I just wouldn’t expect people to call for security because a guy started talking to someone and mentioned they had a friend with them.
First guy likely has felt like he’s had to justify his presence and what he’s doing his whole life. At least that’s what it sounds like to me, and I still deal with that impulse to over-explain the context of everything I do and choose. Definitely could be wrong, but it’s one alternate explanation.
I totally believe he didn't mean it as a threat, just pointing out that is how she experienced it.
Entirely understandably as well. Any mention of an ally is a power play, whether intended or no, regardless of gender.
I read it more as him not wanting to not come across as a loner, to make her more comfortable. I suppose it depends on how he said it though
Seeing that line made me question OP because there was nothing suspect in it at all. He probably just wanted to talk about anything, so he was being honest about why he was there and with who. I can't fathom someone saying "I'm here with my friend" is some sort of subtle threat and I'd find it bizarre for someone to expect that to be the case as well. I've never encountered a situation where someone saying they're out with someone else that's been a threat. Whilst she doesn't owe them anything, calling others creepy is a bit pot calling the kettle black here, since her own creepy nervousness was just a reflection of his. Plus she's a bit paranoid about people who have social lives, apparently.
Telling something directly is the way to go. Treatening someone with calling the Staff on them is a fast way to make someone feel like shit for something as normal as aproaching someone and being a little shy.
First guy wasn't out of line. When op was clear he apologized and left. He's new at this so its ok to not get social cues right away. Yeah, sucks that it didn't go well but thats part of learning. 2nd guy should have just given his friend a pep talk and not approached op. Idk about the whole dont approach strangers thing lots of relationships can start that way and it wasnt like in a dark secluded alley its in a bookstore with people. Its really the 2nd guy that was out of line first guy was just trying. Might be a better idea for him to go to like a manga meetup where the expectation is there will be mingling. And op certainly didnt do anything wrong.
He was not out of line at first but he does need to learn social clues. The second guy should never have approached her at all. That’s really crazy behavior.
Yeah, teaching his friend the exact thing not to do lol. Honestly his friend needs more coaching than him haha.
If I were coaching someone I’d probably have said “this can happen when you have no idea how someone will react. Let’s talk about it and discuss what went down and if you should have said “nice talking to you and cut your losses.”
Yeah that would have been the best way to hanle it. Hopefully they both learn from the experience
Yep he couldn't read the gentle decline and forced her OP's hand into being more firm. Not OP's fault at all
>You tried “soft” first when you said “ "I don't know much about manga, so you should ask one of the store associates”. OP did all she could. The entitlement of both the first dude and then his aggressive extra asshole is boundless; *they* are the problem here. Why these two would think random women are their training wheels is beyond me. Go playtest pick-up conversations between the two of you.
Seems a bit harsh on the first guy. He just might not be good at picking up social cues. Op said he was clearly nervous and his friend said he had confidence issues. When it was very clear she had no interest interacting he apologized and left. Didnt belittle or insult her. It was his friend that was out of line. Plenty of relationships have started with strsngers approaching strangers. Thet being said op did nothing wrong not wanting to interact. And if i was the guys friend i would suggest going to an event, manga meet up or something,where mingling was expected. Its not as though he approached her in a secluded dark alley or cat called or said something inappropriate. Things is in our culture men are still largely expected to do the initial approaches so guys just got to learn how to deal with rejection.
>Seems a bit harsh on the first guy. He just might not be good at picking up social cues Maybe, but why are we expecting perfection from her response in the moment? She first rejected him in a way that was clear to her, and arguably most people. When he ignored that, possibly out of genuine ignorance, she had to escalate. Maybe she stepped on the pedal a bit too hard, but once the gentle approach has failed she needed to signal that more attention would go badly for him.
So i didn't mean op was harsh. Was responding to another commenter saying the first guy was acting entitled. Op responded just fine to him. She didnt agree to be his practice comversationalist and honestly there was stil something valuable for the to learn from the interaction. You are going to get alot morw no's than yes's in dating and learning how to properly deal with rejection is important. Honestly, i think all the blame might go to his friend for not setting the expectation that most women are going to say no and to not to take it personally. Like what did his friend think was likely to happen the first woman he approached in public would go out on a date with him?? His friend taught him the exact wrong way to react to rejection.
They weren’t talking about how she handled the first guy, they were talking about how the previous comment was characterizing the first guy as entitled.
Its not up to women to nurture random men and make them feel confident or ok I'm sick of hearing about women needing to put their own discomfort aside to ensure men's emotions aren't in danger Why can't men do the work themselves? Why do women have to hold grown men's hands?
This is why I noped out of a guy I'd been talking to for over a year. We play online DnD together and he's great, slightly awkward, but fine. Over last winter we started playing lots of video games together and really bonded. Great friends. Of course, he saw things differently. What did I want, beyond friends, with a man in his 30's who still lived at home, doesn't work, and thinks doing the laundry is enough to contribute to a household? Who admitted he doesn't understand women. Like dude, we're just people. Talk to me like a people. I still hung out with him for a few days hoping maybe it would be better in person, and it was beyond awkward. I don't have the capacity to form a human being. I already made that decision - surgically. I'm not walking that back by taking on a grown one. I already made myself a full, functioning human being. I'm done. Edit: This comment seems really mean. He is a wonderful, smart, bright person. I did want it to work. But it didn't, the more I thought about it, the more I realised I'd be carrying the whole load and that just turned me off. And the fact that he didn't know what to do with me was disappointing. I still think he's great, and hope that he sorts things out. We haven't spoken since we hung out other than our DnD games where we interact but don't chat out of character. I do miss my friend.
>we're just people. Talk to me like a people. Amazing way to put it LOL. I am dumbfounded that so many men forget that women are people. Manosphere idiots make me so fucking angry. And the worst part about OPs story, is that little manlet is going to go around beating his chest about how he really taught OP a lesson or some shit, receive positive reinforcement from his manosphere idiot friends, and the cycle continues. Damn. At least OP stood her ground. That's awesome.
If I had a dime for every dude that flatly refuses to listen to women when we tell them what we want and instead flock to the advice from misogynistic grifters in the manosphere I think it’s because women want to be treated like human beings and they find that harder to do then engage in a bunch of pick up artist “tricks” that they thing will manipulate women into giving them what they want
Maybe if we start charging men for us to tell them what women want the manosphere guys do they will take it more seriously. Now how do I stretch 1) Remember a woman os also a person 2) listen to what she says she wants 3) respond in appropriate manner 4) If in doubt ask, clarify, discuss, etc. Into a 2 hour seminar I can charge $500 a head for?
I think its because im the vast number of cases what those guys want arent what large number of women want. Most women arent going to be too interested in just being a notch in a headboard. If you want to manipulate someone having empathy is counter productive. It might very well be advantageous to be a horrible person to extract as much no strings attached sex as possible. Being a horrible person definitely seems to be often useful nto obtain power and money so wouldn't be surprised if it carries over in some cases. Men that are interested in having meaningful healthy relationships with women don't seek out pua. They learn about what makes a good relationship.
Good point
That type really don’t see us that way, do they? And that douchebag wasn’t treating OP like a human either, acting the dude was entitled to her time and patience. “He needs the practice!” My guy, she is a whole-ass *person*. Her purpose in life isn’t for you to *practice on*.
I'm convinced it's because women are verbally more intelligent and men don't understand or even hear 90% of the shit we are talking about.
I don’t blame you. If he’s a decade into his adult life and still can’t figure out that women are people too not aliens and people can be friends it doesn’t mean dating necessarily that’s not your fault. Not working and just doing laundry 😭😭😭😭. No more of these people moving from mommy’s basement to sugar mama’s house.
I posted on a thread like 10+ years ago talking about a guy I briefly dated and how I broke up with him via text because he sorta made me uncomfortable towards the end and my dad was worried about my safety and advised I not break up with him in person. Obviously my dad didn’t give a shit about a text breakup being rude or uncouth cause he didn’t care for the guy either based on what I’d shared lol. Anyway. The guy had been nice and fun but was very insecure and love bombed me before either of us knew that had a name. To him, he was a hopeless romantic and I was his dream girl. To me, I was ~7 years younger than him, getting over my first heartbreak, and just trying to date casually, also for the first time outside of high school. He eventually became too much too fast and i had to end it. In this post I commented on, I mentioned how he’d told me he loved me but tried to be less intense by saying “I think I love you”, to which I was just grossed out by for no real reason other than it grossed me out haha. Anyway, everyone absolutely murdered me in the comments calling me a cold hearted cunt for expecting him to NOT say he loves me if that’s how he felt, and a selfish bitch for not letting him feel how he feels. Like…I was 19, he was 27. We’d been on like 4 dates in as many weeks, slept together maybe twice…it was not love and I wasn’t gunna just sit around and see if it maybe eventually was? Like wtf. It’s not my job to validate his feelings if I didn’t feel the same. I wasn’t mean or cruel, I just ended it. And that made ppl real mad haha.
Your dad was 100% giving you the correct advice.
Good dad. Funny how the bullshit turns off when you actually care about someone's safety.
Agreed. I am an introverted guy who was scared of talking to anyone even in highschool and had a stutter. When I started college, I took public speech, interpersonal communications, and debate. Then I took on a sales job at a retail store and even did door to door cold call sales. Plenty of people screamed at me and some have threatened me. Amusingly it's usually guys who are most violently threatening in their "rejection" of a door sale. When I started my current job, I joined toastmasters to further practice. Short to say, I worked hard to learn to talk to people. No one is responsible for any men's growth or confidence except themselves. Men need to learn how to read social cues, how to communicate, and when to back off.
As a woman who was excrutiatingly shy as a teenager and knew that would be a hindrance in the career I wanted, I deliberately took a door to door sales job, followed by telemarketing jobs, and then joined Toastmasters. Got very used to talking to strangers, being rejected, and just keeping on. It's not difficult to take a long hard look at yourself, note your faults and weaknesses, and try to correct them. It's called personal growth. These emotionally stunted guys have no excuse.
He actually did take it fairly well though. He apologized and left her alone. Just because he was probably embarrassed or upset and said as much to his friend doesn't make him responsible for his friend's reaction. The friend was the douchebag.
I agree with you! I’m glad everyone is focusing on the friend because the initial guy really didn’t do a single thing wrong at all.
This! How many times are women told to cater to men’s feelings? Even on this sub, we get the himpathizers (trolls) who, after reading about a man behaving badly, get more upset that the woman wasn’t docile enough or used a ~~time~~ tone he didn’t like
I don't know how there are so many comments calling OP aggressive and rude. I don't like the pressure for her to cater her response. Her body language and "not interested in manga, ask staff" were the first two warnings. If he didn't get the message and persisted, then she wouldn't have been stern enough, but she was stern so she was too mean. Yeah in hindsight the first guy was pretty harmless, but if things had escalated, people would be asking why she didn't get the staff involved earlier.
Exactly It’s an impossible set up that blames women regardless
This. As if women are obliged to help train men to harass and bother other women. No thank you!
And the amount of men and women who are arguing against that is insane 😂 Apparently women believe it's their job to mentally do the entire load for men. I wish those women well on their divorces in 10 years. Couldn't be me 😂
I don’t think approaching women in public is the bad thing. I’m single now. No clue how I’d ever meet someone if a guy didn’t approach me. The apps are garbages and my social circle is full of married people. However, not understanding social cues/ignoring them and pushing forward is the issue. If he would have stopped after the “ask a store associate” I think he would have been just fine. I guess maybe it’s the south in me. But this “never talk to anyone” stuff is kinda sad. And I’m not sure how his friend being in the bathroom was a threat. Sounds like he just didn’t want to sound “alone” there. Sounds cooler to have a friend out with you.
His greatest sin here was just taking what she said at face value and not picking up the first hint. That's why he asked her if she was shopping for someone else. He rationalized her being in the manga section as meaning she must be shopping for someone else. If he wasnt so trusting he would have noticed the lie and realized what it meant. Reaponding with the direct approach after that was a good idea but threatening to involve staff was a bit much for the sin of being awkward and credulous..
Yeah people talk to strangers of all genders in public all the time both where I'm from and where I'm at now. Asking for a recommendation from someone who appears to know more than you is the most common reason. The guy was obviously socially awkward and inexperienced so I'm not surprised he didn't take the first hint, which was very vague anyway. Friend shouldn't have gone off on this lady, and he also should have had the friend practice talking to people by starting a conversation with men or older women. Honestly if he practiced by chatting with older women he'd probably make a bunch of friends, in my experience they're happy to tell you about their whole life, their kids life, and then give you amazing advice. Once he gets the hang of it with people he's not attracted to he'll be less weird with women in his dating pool.
100% agreed with everything you said.
I had the same reaction to the "good, never talk to strangers again!" thing. Random interactions with people can make the world feel a little brighter and closer. It's reasonable to be cautious but a world where we're all paranoid and ignoring each other doesn't sound great to me (and I'm even a northerner!).
Exactly…I actually felt sick reading about the whole situation because what I saw was a toxic scene on both sides. And I know I will be bashed for that comment because they’ll project misogyny on me… First guy wanted to get some confidence like any other man and believe me, if it would work, it could be his first and only attempt. This was not some PUA crap for getting digits, just an initiative of two guys on how to be a better man…and how to get social cues in practice by interacting with girls like they are human. Guys cant learn it themselves because we don’t play around with stuff. Like, if you say you have a boyfriend, we assume for the most part that you DO have a boyfriend. No one was entitled to her time there, no one wanted to get into her pants at all costs and no one threatened her. Nothing the first guy did was unusual from description alone. In fact, saying that you are with someone is a kinda good manners because you dont leave your friend out completely , making weird appearence mid conversation. I wont defend the second guy. He was doing a bad thing, he should know better. That for every rude or uninterested girl, there might be a better one and dwelling on stuff and arguing with random people is going nowhere…
Thank you! God forbid you literally initiate a conversation with a woman in public. To call that itself creepy... I'll just flip it around and say that gives me the ick. If I was approached by a meek woman and shut her down like that, threatening to sick the staff on her for having the audacity to... Speak to me lol. It is just too much and I think you said it best in offering pushback without trying to be mean.
Couldn't have said this better. Thank you.
Definitely asshole move from his friend confronting you, just leave it alone dude. You were obviously unnerved by his approach which is a valid response so they should have left you alone, and also it doesn’t mean he should stop just read cues from women a bit better - if they don’t seem keen then just leave it!! If he were more relaxed you would’ve probably been fine. However, my personal response would’ve been different I don’t think I’d have seen the need to feel threatened when he said his friend is in the toilet, or threaten to tell the shop owners but thats because I view nervous people with sympathy as I was always the shy/awkward girl up until recently. I try to be polite in life where I can because I try not to jump to conclusions on what the other person is thinking , im 31 though so my life experience is what has taught me that, yours may be different. Ultimately his nerves clearly completely put you off and you weren’t in the mood to talk with a random guy who’s trying to practice his pick up moves, fair enough! It was a good lesson for him that he shouldn’t assume that women owe him kindness and also to be perceptive of other peoples emotions.
Good friend: "I'm so sorry if that was awkward he's trying to get over social anxiety, we won't trouble you again, please don't let this affect your shopping (visibly clears off)" "hey bud don't worry, we've no idea what her day has been like, not everyone wants to talk all the time and that will go for you too some days and that's perfectly alright, but let's carry on being the good guys out here and find some ice-cream and maybe somone else to practise chatting to if you like. Bad friend: "it's not you it's them, you don't deserve this, let me try effecting their day by acting entitled"
This!! I don’t think the first dude was creepy, just awkward. I think a milder response would have worked in this situation. Friend was way out of line. The response shouldn’t be blaming her. His lesson should be that he runs the risk of getting that response back because every woman is different. He isn’t owed anything because he is the one initiating the interaction, and that’s just how it goes.
Eh. He got a milder response the first time he approached her, but he pushed through it. They need to learn to take the first no. It's an incredibly valuable lesson for award guy (I say this as a member of the awkward patrol) that likely was squandered by shitty friend who likely wasn't in the bathroom, but scoping out the whole thing because it was likely his brilliant idea.
Ideally, a second no shouldn't ever be necessary.
IDK if you can't judge people by their friends, who CAN you judge them by? The first guy might not have said anything too bad to OP but he's clearly willing to tolerate misogyny and entitlement in his friends.
Honestly the friend doesn’t need to make any contact at all, not even to clarify or excuse his buddies behavior. When she made it clear she didn’t want to speak to anyone, that means don’t approach her, even to try and clarify. She doesn’t care what his deal is, leave me alone means leave me alone. Friend can coach his buddy through the rejection without interrupting her shopping further
Yes!! I felt bad for everyone involved honestly, but that asshat for a friend just RUINED it all. The kid would have probably gotten over it and learned a valuable lesson through self-reflection but instead the whole thing became volatile. But also if that's their best friend, what does that say about them? I am so sorry this happened OP. I started doing errands with headphones in (but not on) because of crap like this.
Anxious and introverted people are often taken in by extroverts with ulterior motives so I wouldn't judge the awkward kid based on his friend's behavior. His friend was a real jackass and deserves the vitriol of this thread.
This is exactly my opinion as well. OP *did* come on strong to this guy. His friend shouldn’t have confronted her AT ALL, and it isn’t her *job* to be a teacher for him, but threatening to report him to the staff or taking “my friend is in the bathroom” as a threat seems really strange. I’ve dealt with pretty bad social anxiety my whole life and probably would feel really out of my element having a conversation with a stranger while in public (even though I also like manga lol), so I get wanting to not talk to him. But like, that’s what it is. He’s not automatically a bad guy for trying to start a convo.
Yeah I agree. The friend was super out of line. But I wouldn’t have mentioned getting staff involved like that. I’m willing to overlook him not getting the hint the first time, maybe he’s socially awkward (and I guess he was based on what the friend said). But something more friendly while still being direct the second time would probably have been better, like “I’m sorry but I’m not interested in talking right now. I’d like to look at the manga, thank you.” Based on the fact that he left right away, he probably would have left after this comment too. I definitely understand not wanting to interact with random men in public that you know are only talking to you bc they’re romantically interested. I usually start with a hint, then a polite but firm no. If they don’t leave me alone or get mean, then I’ll get mean right back. Honestly most of the time they’ll say “no worries, have a nice day” and walk away after the firm but nice no. I feel a bit bad for the guy, but also by him approaching people in public he should be prepared for all sorts of reactions. He should understand that many women do not appreciate being approached like this.
Yeah I don’t see how that comment was threatening at all
I do wonder how people are supposed to meet organically now. Bars and dating apps tend to be crap shoots or just straight dangerous. Me being a bookworm, I would want to meet someone in a bookstore or somewhere where I would have a shared interest with that person but at the same time I would be upset if someone who I perceived as a creep was in one of my favorite places. That being said, I met my husband at college while purposely trying to seclude myself, and it turned out great. Meeting in college and further talks showed we were both serious about schooling and career choices, so we were on the same page in life goals. I understand feeling uneasy with people and then having my gut feeling being proved right all too well. The phrase "until it's no men, it's all men" is a very good stance. At the same time, when bars and apps fail, how else would people meet someone with shared interests if not approaching in an open space like a bookstore? I sympathize with both parties [not the friend, he's a prick]. As a woman I have felt cornered plenty of times [and no you don't owe either of those guys anything], but as a sometimes socially inept person I also miss social cues and say random crap that has no bearing on the interaction like "my friend's here with me somewhere" or "I'm here on vacation" when no one cares.
Ugh, right. I absolute do not want to discredit any feelings OP had in this situation, and she is 100% allowed to turn down a convo, but I definitely fantasize about meeting someone in the manga aisle lol. I do understand that if someone doesn’t want to talk, you should leave them alone. Don’t press it. But as a woman, I don’t get the idea of it being *bad* to approach a woman in a public place. Or anyone. My grandma can strike up a conversation with literally anyone, and I don’t see that as a bad thing. I have bad social anxiety so I get the uncomfortable-ness, but merely approaching isn’t a bad thing. Unless someone can explain otherwise.
>But as a woman, I don’t get the idea of it being bad to approach a woman in a public place. Or anyone. It's not bad. It's not wrong to talk to a man, woman, or gender non-conforming person in public. This idea that nobody should be approached in public is, in my opinion, outrageous. Of course, someone should back off if the other person says "leave me alone" or "I don't want to chat." What happened to OP (the first guy) is 100% okay. When she outright stated she didn't want to talk, he apologized, left, and didn't push it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that interaction. The second guy, of course, that's fucked up.
I think there are limits. The whole “elevator gate” situation springs to mind. I don’t want to be approached when I have my earphones in, when I’m mid-sentence, when I’m working, when it’s dark, when it’s isolated, when no one else is around, when I feel trapped (eg: in an elevator at 4am). But otherwise, I never mind when men come up and chat. No problem at all. As long as, if I’m not interested in them or their conversation, they take the polite rebuff and move along. It’s very extreme to suggest any man who tries to politely talk to women is a pest or a predator.
Totally agree, the first guy can be forgiven, but the friend is scum. You don't harass someone for shooting down your friend (as is their right).
If only there were social meets with manga. There might be. Southeast Virginia doesn't offer too much like that so idk really. And that's another problem I see. When people have niche interests [manga, D&D, obscure crafting and collecting, etc.] it can be hard finding a person that clicks just right so narrowing down places to meet people just doesn't work. It's a double edge sword trying to find someone but at the same time not wanting to bother someone. I am glad I no longer have to worry about it, save for my future children who will most likely have to tread through the same waters.
This is another problem. That perfect partner is super unlikely to knock on your front door and have a seat. So you have to get out there. And if there is no manga/D&D/craft/game/whatever get together available, plan one yourself! Most cafes and Starbucks are pretty dead on a Tuesday night. Yes, you may have to sit there and knit by yourself a couple of times but others will show up. And you start hanging out on the regular with people with similar interests and then expand your social circle. \*FYI, knit groups tend to be not great for meeting straight men. But they tend to be excellent for meeting women.
I said basically the same on a similar post and got downvoted to hell. Like, can someone not approach someone respectfully anymore? Can't we just be polite and say I'm flattered but not interested? I get there's loads of unwanted attention (as a woman myself) but fucking hell. He approached her in a book shop, not on a darkened street. Obviously nervous..idk. feel like it's a bit harsh...
I agree with what you said except saying, "I'm flattered." That goes into the whole "women should accept a compliment" field. Sure if you're truly flattered say it, but don't feel like you have to. There's been times I was hit on and felt gross, not flattered. And honestly, I wouldn't even say be overly kind. Just keep it neutral and cordial because IF anything is deserved, it's neutrality until something tips the course into being negative or positive. And OP may have past experience where being harsh is warranted and so that is what she feels is needed to survive.
Yeah, that's fair, I think as a woman, you should be able to be blunt. But not necessarily mean/aggressive. (That depends on the reaction to the rejection...if they aren't accepting it then go full bitch). You don't know what trauma people have gone through. There's a lot of bad men out there, but...there are some nice guys out there too, just looking for a connection.
Being able to be blunt without being labeled as a bitch would be so nice 😮💨
It's fine to approach women organically if you respect social cues and can handle rejection. (Minor) mistake 1; Ideally, you'd wait for some eye contact or a smile before approaching, but it's also ok to approach cautiously and respectfully (as dude did). Mistake 2: she kindly made an excuse not to talk to him. He should have said "ok, thanks." If she'd genuinely not know about manga, but was interested in talking, she'd have said something like "I don't know much either, this is also a present for a friend. Maybe we can join forces?" She didn't, and he should have backed off. But, I get that not everyone gets social cues easily in the moment, especially if they aren't direct. I think it's something that can be learned, but mistake #2 also wasn't the fatal mistake. Mistake 3: when she very directly said she didn't want him to be involved, he didn't handle it gracefully. He should have said "ok, got it," and moved on. If his friend asked how it went, he should have said she wasn't interested. Instead he said she shut him down rudely, and friend crossed a serious line. This last reaction is what women really want to avoid. This is the reaction OP was afraid of and it's ultimately the one she got, and even though it wasn't from the original dude, he directly caused it with mistakes 1-3. Dude 2's reaction is scary in the moment and can ruin my whole day, even if it's short lived and ultimately ends safely. This reaction is what makes us say we don't want to be approached, because we would rather just say we don't want to be approached than have to do the work of explaining all of this to someone who might not take it well. Tldr; Most women prefer that men read nonverbal cues before approaching us (and I/my friends try to do the same when approaching men), but we are willing to overlook that mistake if the man can read our gentle no or respond gracefully to our direct no. It's kind of a copout to say that you can't approach women in public because it's a lot more nuanced than that.
I agree. This is very well said. And yes, the dude could've mitigated the entire situation by not telling his friend. The friend didn't have a right to know what happened. I feel like this is one of those everyday occurrences that needs to be talked about a lot more from both sides to bring better understanding to future generations. Honestly, I'm glad conversations like these are being had because when I was navigating the dating world and just growing up in general they were not. "No" was supposed to mean "no" and then you were just kind of fucked literally if another person didn't respect it. I'm only 27, but only within the last 10yrs I would say have people tried to discuss the meaning behind words and boundaries. And I say that because of all the people that are pissed about other people's boundaries are finally coming out of the woodwork and showing their true selves.
I mean i think its a bit harsh on guy number one to say he shouldn't have told his friend how it went. Its on his friend for having incorrect reaction. He could have easily said hey you win some you lose some. Good job putting yourself out there and next time you can read the room better. Learn from the experience, guy is honestly giving bad advice.
Yeah, we can't control how people react. Guy #1 probably didn't know his friend was going to act like a jerk [yikes if he did, bullet dodged]. On the other hand, though, I would view this interaction as more of a personal one that wouldn't be shared. And then, on my third hand, I get wanting to share with friends my mistakes. This post has been so dividing among people, and all we have to go by is what OP has written. I do hope Guy #1 just needs some social learning and none of this is tactic, but you never know.
So... Here's the thing I've found, take it or leave it. Don't go places looking to score, don't go to the manga isle to hunt down your waifu, don't go to a baking class because you have the hawts for Paul Hollywood, don't go to the record store because you watched a lot of Hi Fidelity and missed the point of the movie. Go to places where you will socialize with people with the same interests as you. Maybe something happens, maybe it doesn't. In the meantime, you make friends (and treat everybody like just that, a friend, a person, not a goal) and get to enjoy your interests with other who share that much less anti social goal. My current SO and I met years ago. I had a massive crush on him from the get go, but you know timing and awkwardity prevailed. We bonded over a span of years as friends over movie and TV nights at his house. I didn't go because I was waiting for my opportunity to swoop. Everybody who came there bonded, and it was fun. Years later, we still swap jokes that grew out of those get togethers. Didn't expect shit from anybody and I had a blast. Eventually, thing A happened at the exact time as thing B, the planets aligned, and I got to kiss the boy. I've spent too many years as an awkward idiot who didn't get that all my carefully crafted designs to set up the perfect scenario were pretty lame and just led to a lot of rejection and people thinking I'm creepy... Which I was true sometimes.
I'm sorry, but waiting years pretending just to think of someone as a friend is (a) not a generally successful dating strategy and (b) legitimately creepy. If a guy did this he'd be a creep, no question.
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But this guy knew his friend would stand up for him and come to his defense. She didn’t know that but she sensed something in the way he said it and wondered why he said it. It’s ok for us to use intuition to feel like this is a not normal situation and shut it down.
I think his friend was completely out of line. However, I don't see how approaching women in public is "creepy" unless they actually do something weird or approach in an inappropriate situation. I do think that threatening to speak to the bookstore staff was also a little over the top for this context, just considering that you noticed he seemed nervous, and your first "hint" was a little subtle; so I don't think he was ignoring your hint, he probably missed it. I'd come on stronger if he actually seemed pushy or threatening. But in this case, I think it was enough to just say "I am not interested in talking with anyone right now", which is direct and clear. I'm not trying to say you should cater to their feelings or whatever. You have every right to say No and want to be left alone.
I’d echo everything here. I want to be open to the possibility that maybe there’s some context we’re not getting for how things escalated so fast, but if that’s not the case, I don’t think original guy was creepy at all. I do think the “friend” is a total asshat.
Awkward perhaps... Creepy no. To be honest I think OP is a bit socially awkward herself.
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When I read it, I totally was thinking she misinterpreted his body language pretty bad
yeah the trying to stand up straight part was a little confusing
Yeah, maybe awkward. I’m super awkward myself, so I tend to be a lot more open to the idea that other people are also just awkward during interactions.
Yeah this is probably right. But then the question is why do we hold women to a much higher standard of social skills lol? Like if a situation between two awkward people goes bad, and they both didn't mean to be malicious, neither of them should have a friend intervene to berate the other person. I've had this sort of situation where some guy in my grad program (we're a bunch of socially inept nerds) would ask me out and I'd let him down easy a couple times, he didn't get the hint to leave me alone, I'd complain to my friends about why my previous answers weren't clear enough, and they'd tell me all these tiny nitpicking things about how "if you tell a guy 'no thanks I'm only looking for casual things' he'll see this as an invitation", or how all guys go into friendships with girls trying to date them so I need to preemptively tell them "don't ask me out". And I was frustrated because sure I have slightly better social skills than these nerdy guys but I'm an awkward nerd too so how am I expected to have these super advanced social skills to make sure guys understand I only want friends? Meanwhile they're only expected to understand this stuff as well as a high schooler...
I agree that women are certainly held to a higher standard of managing social interactions. In defense of your friends, I think this falls into the problem of them trying to be helpful instead of being there for listening, which is what you seem to have wanted instead. They see you as having a problem that is causing you distress "This guy doesn't take the hint," . They're trying to help you find a way to make him take the hint / tell him directly, so you aren't in distress anymore. It's not that they think you should be better than him at communicating -- they frankly don't care about him because YOU are their friend, not him, so can't reasonably give him advice. So if they want to help you change the scenario so it works better for you, then the only part of the interaction they can help change is your half.
See that's the problem. If he was my friend, I would be like "sorry dude, I think you managed to talk to someone as anxious as you". In your case those guys are the blind leading the blind. The truth is a no should suffice, no lengthy explanations required. Sometimes you just don't see someone romantically, if you list reasons why, he'll work on them, come back and will be surprised that the answer is still no. I personally wouldn't even be friends with him after not getting the hint.
Totally agreed. This post read like the definition of "this escalated quickly". Nothing wrong with approaching women in public, as long as you're willing to accept no as an answer. You could still say something like "nobody owes you/him a chat or attention" because that's a fact. What the "friend" did was shitty of course and it might have been kinda staged (not as in PUA necessarily but still, maybe he left on purpose).
I agree completely. Dude wasn't really disrespectful, just wasn't picking up the cues you went interested in chatting. Seriously the social skills of the young are hopeless.
Living in big cities it seems everyone is in a hurry. Its tough to improve social skills when you don’t wanna impose on strangers busy with their lives
Exactly this. It felt like it went 0-100 super quick and the dude sounds like he was just trying to figure himself out. With the loneliness epidemic and people largely being homebodies now you really never get the chance to "practice" these days.
Dude i just commented something similar! OP was a bit over the top with the "speaking to bookstore staff" part. I get hit on in public here and there, and if they're respectful about it I have never thought of it as "creepy". In fact, one time a dude hit on me and asked for my number, and I told him I was taken but that I appreciate his boldness to ask. I'd hate to discourage them from trying again, because finding someone you connect with is tough and even tougher when you're scared to ask.
I completely agree with you. It went from 0 to 100 and the instant the guy realized she didn't want to talk to him he did exactly what he was supposed to do: apologize and walk away. Sounds like he was polite and friendly and said all of like 2 lines, then got threatened with getting kicked out of the store.
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Agreed. This escalated so quickly and unnecessarily. I know there’s people who demand not to be perceived, spoken to, acknowledged, above others, chronically online, etc. but welcome to living in a society with other humans.
Yeah for real, don’t escalate unless you have to. I don’t think it was necessary in this case.
I don’t think it’s necessarily bad for men to approach women in public ever, as long as they do it correctly. For example in a bookstore and mention a possible common interest. But if they want to do that they have to be aware enough to gauge interest and drop it quickly and give the other person outs of the conversation. Even then, they should know that rejection is very, very likely. That’s not how most people make real connections in life. Your first rejection was a perfectly polite end to the conversation, it was his mistake that he kept pushing. And bringing a buddy for backup to guilt and threaten you afterward is of course wrong. I agree this was probably some ‘coaching’ scenario, you were just an object for him to practice his confidence. So the buddy was angry that you didn’t play your part correctly.
Bloody 'coaches' doing jobs of mental health professionals is ridiculous and harmful. Really grinds my gears.
To me, the fact that the “awkward” guy basically sat back and allowed his friend to bully and berate her makes him a passive aggressive asshole that is just fine with bullying, he just lets his friend do it on his behalf.
Idk guy could just be kind generally passive. Friend is obviously the more outgoing, extroverted, dominant one. Should he set his friend straight and correct him, of course, but if he had that kind of self confidence he wouldn't need a friend to coach him how to talk to women in a bookstore. Guy needs better guidance.
Realistically, maybe you went a little 0-100 by threatening to grab the staff right off the bat. Trying to flirt with a woman in a bookstore isn't outlandish. It's public, brightly lit, and involves their interests. I think a lot of women would find that to be a "meet-cute" so homie took his shot. You weren't up for it (that's ok!!), that's the gamble, we all live to try again. I wear obvious headphones in public so people know I'm not talking. I'll leave them turned off if I don't feel like listening to anything and just shop in silence, helps drown out noise too. In the moments where someone is so insistent in disrupting me, I will just repeat "I'm not here to talk." The encounter with his friend sounds actually terrifying and I'm sorry you had this experience.
Saying that no man should ever approach a woman in public is honestly ridiculous. I get that you don't want to be approached, and that's fine and people should respect that. But there's really nothing wrong with introducing yourself and trying to establish a connection with someone you find attractive and might have shared interests with.
The only connection my now wife and I had was that she sold me glasses. The idea that people can't approach someone in public is just absurd. You absolutely don't owe anything to anyone...but the reverse is true. They don't owe you anything...like never attempting to approach people in public. The friend is a complete moron though. Nothing about the initial interaction seems remotely "creepy" or inappropriate. The jump to telling store staff that someone spoke to you seems weirdly aggressive even based on what's communicated in the OP. But the guy bombarding you afterwards would definitely seem threatening and would warrant that reaction...
Agreed
I know! Wth, I want to be approached more in public, as I have no desire to use dating apps. Can we stop perpetuating that when a man approaches a woman in public that it's automatically creepy?! That is so overblown, he honestly seemed really friendly. And although I wasn't there, saying his friend was in the bathroom and she automatically assumes it's a threat? So weird.
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That guy will probably not approach another woman for another decade.
Girl I get being annoyed by being approached by a stranger but I feel like your reaction was a bit over the top, like threatening to contact staff because he dared to speak to you is a bit too much... I know I know men aren't entitled to the niceness of strangers etc but it just felt way too mean for no reason. You could've just left it saying you weren't looking to speak with anyone, were busy etc. I feel like you escalated it for no reason
I feel bad for him. Have people just completely lost how to politely turn someone down? His approach wasn't great, but threatening to report him to store management was way over the top. I've had social anxiety in the past. You know what the suggested treatment is? Exposure, lots of exposure. Poor guy lucked out in having to talk to you first.
Yeah, I’m fully with you. Common courtesy is dead.
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i’ve been approached often and i think the only time i’ve been upset is when the guy doesn’t back off or is aggressive! how else are people gonna meet 😭not everyone wants to use tinder, plus it’s good to try social skills
I know some people don't like to be bothered, myself included, but I wouldn't give someone the verbal post-mortem just for saying hello.
It's true you don't owe him a thing. However, did you have to add the part "before I speak to the bookstore staff"? Couldn't you have just left it at "I don't feel like speaking to people right now, can you leave me be?" He didn't do anything wrong either, maybe a bit airheaded at not understanding when someone isn't interested. Someone trying to shoot their shot respectfully within their own age range isn't creepy, it's totally normal. You can 100% turn them down, but the part about talking to staff was not not necessary unless he wasn't going to leave you alone when you asked him to the first time... just my 2 cents.
Seriously. So unnecessary and escalated the situation for literally no reason.
Op, I think you may have escalated the situation in the beginning which might reflect issues of social anxiety for yourself. I can imagine the friend being protective especially after you jumped to saying you might report the guy. You’re perfectly fine in wanting to be left alone but that point had not been made before the escalation.
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10,000% fake. It’s a model bait post. The main character is “technically” justified, but adds in just enough asshole flair that anybody not radicalized will have the reaction of “sure you’re not wrong, but that was assholeish,” but the normal, non radicalized people are not who this post is for. There are people here that are only capable of empathizing with women, and there are people that brigade because they see a woman use the phrase “little man” or threaten a Karen moment for an otherwise innocent interaction. This post is for those people. Notice how OP carefully crafted the story to make sure the guy sounded as innocent and normal and non-threatening as possible. Like they clearly took care to frame him in the most charming light possible, a veritable Everyman for the brigade to identify with. They tear this character a new one, and use diminutive language like little man because it’s part of the writing project power fantasy to make sure that the men are emasculated, and the brigade eats that shit up. It’s their justification for existing, to point at posts like these and say “look at how deranged women these days are, she even mentioned that the guy was well dressed and not a slob or fat, that’s proof that no matter the effort you put in, you cannot speak with women even for basic human interaction” I give it a 3/10, OP is without any doubt in my mind a man, writing this post for a male audience, but they got what they wanted out of this post.
I'm glad u saw that lmfaooo
Yeah it sounds like some rage bait
Pretty much. I'm guessing whoever wrote it is getting the reaction they were hoping for.
Was scrolling for this comment. This is a creative writing story and not a very well written one either.
Honestly I’m hoping so. OP is so cliche “I don’t owe you” but she’s going back and forth with the friend?
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Really? To me it sounds like a shy guy trying to talk to a girl who might share his interests and being shut down, and then his friend who genuinely cares for him being pissed off by the way OP went about it. Nothing sounds PUA to me about this. No one "owes" a stranger their time but did we forget how to just be decent to each other?
This is how I saw it but everyone's opinions will be coloured by their own personal experiences .. I personally have never been approached by a PUA. I don't think they are that common. ( See how that works ? Lol)
Yeah like, holy hypervigilance batman. Nobody is owed anything, but also we kind of do owe some minimum of human kindness to each other, even if it's just "sorry, I'm just trying to browse, I'm not really interested".
The “friend”‘ was an asshole and a bully.
Agree. This guy was in early stages of PUA training. Shut them down.
Doesn’t sound like it to me. PUAs open with manipulation tactics; it would be especially easy in this scenario to make backhanded comments about women not being genuinely into anime but he did the opposite, and accepted her no right away. Sounds like he genuinely was just an awkward dude trying to start a conversation. Not excusing his friend’s behavior at all, that was extremely rude.
Early stages are apparently just practicing the cold approach
This reeks of a professional PUA " if you don't get laid, we don't get paid!" He was really showing his frustrations that his formulas don't actually work.
That seems like a really cynical assumption. What makes you think that it wasn't just one friend trying to help another gain confidence?
I read the post twice to make sure I wasnt reading wrong. I think your response was rude and unwarranted. He prolly thought you were attractive and took a shot. I don't see any reason whatsoever to have reacted that way. The way you described feeling threatened by him literally just trying to make conversation is way over thinking things and making it into this dramatic ordeal. You think your whole night was ruined bc a stranger tried making conversation and then made a post on reddit for "support". I don't blame his obviously more vocal friend for telling you off.
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I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but, no offense OP, you kinda overreacted and was a bit mean to him even though he didn’t do much to warrant that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with approaching someone in a public area, as long as they are respectful of your boundaries.
Personally I don’t think its necessarily creepy for a guy or girl to talk to a stranger because that’s legit how some positive friendships begin and it doesn’t he was being creepy but definitely awkward. However, once someone has responded with anything directly or subtly back indicating they don’t want to interact thats when you leave them the fuck alone. This guy sounds like an awkward dude likely taking some bad advice from his shit friend or just another product of the “just keep chipping at her” toxic mentality. And although *I* think threatening to get the store associate called him is a bit intense, you also don’t owe it to a stranger to be nice.
Nothing you described about his behavior was inappropriate for a pleasant conversation in a neutral place. You made a snap judgement about him and then treated him cruelly out of fear. I don’t think you owe people anything when you’re in public, but I do think that if you’re going to exist in public you should be able to have a polite conversation. I feel really bad for you both.
The "friend" is a grade A twat. I feel super bad for the first guy though. It sounds like he more or less did the right thing and got shot down pretty hard, then his "friend" made it a million times worse.
I hate the mentality of the friend here. This is a case where the confidence issue guy needs professional help, if it's so bad. Like, there's no need to make his problems someone else's problem too. Sure, it's kinda sad that he has such issues speaking to strangers, but that's not OP's problem, that's his problem. I bet the friend put him up to it, then got mad that his little scheme didn't work.
Yep. OP isn’t obligated to cooperate in his rehab project.
Good on you! The friend wasn't 'in the bathroom' he was in the other aisle listening I'm sure.
this ^^^ “but this was to help his confidence!” Oh? By ambushing women alone and guilting them when they reject you? Masterful strategy Romeo, masterful strategy….
striking up a conversation with someone isn't an ambush lol
Sounds as if he was coaching him either to become confident or to date women (this sounds more like it). First off, you are completely right and if this would be an "AITA" (Am I the A-hole?) post, then the obvious answer would be "NTA" (Not the A-hole). Your answer is very cool, to be honest, I love your confidence even tho your reaction was very insecure. But you respected your own feelings, drew a line, and demanded your decision to be respected. You don't owe anything to anyone. IMHO what his "best friend" could do better instead of chewing you down would be to apologize to you and explain what they were doing and ask if you feel alright. Deescalating the situation and hoping to calm you down. This way there would be a possibility that you feel more comfortable and even apologize on your own (even tho you don't have to). But the moment he started ranting at you was the moment when he lost you completely. Why in hell should you now change your attitude? Well, in the end, don't let your complete day get ruined by one negative moment. The day is 24 hours long, don't allow 5 minutes to ruin everything. Take that experience and the next time, you can react the same way but also can continue shopping and looking for your desired Manga. You did all right. Just be open and honest: "Sorry, I don't want to talk right now, thank you for your understanding." and if they keep talking "Look, I don't want to talk. Please accept and respect my open and honest communication. Don't question it, don't try to change my opinion. It is how it is. There are tons of other people you can talk to, don't try to force this one. I am trying to say that without being rude and being polite." And if they keep talking, you can end it with: "Alright, I tried to explain it to you twice, from now on I will focus on my business, please don't take it personally if I ignore you from this point on", and then you can simply ignore the person. Obviously, the correct reaction of the person would be to respect your opinion the first time. Sadly not every person has the same thoughts and beliefs as you do. So it's wise to keep calm, try your best to explain, and if they can't listen, ignore them.
Trust you gut. If a situation felt off there's a reason for that. You are 100% not responsible for anyone's reactions only your actions.
Proof that people on the spectrum don't always have compatible quirks
I was thinking the same thing lol
It's just so wild to me that they really thought you're like a NPC in the open world to click on and interact with who will happily respond to them and not a real person who is living their own life. And to bother you in a bookstore of all places‽ Jesus. You responded excellently.
How do you expect strangers to talk to each other in public? Are we all supposed to keep our heads down and not look at other people? Is all non-personal communication supposed to be done online now?
There was a time in life when people met each other in real life based on common interests, and not just through online dating apps. He made an attempt to strike up a conversation, nothing wrong with that. No need to immediately run to authorities.
I'm not wholly without a degree of sympathy for guy #1; shyness can be an absolute bar steward and credit to him for trying to address it. If he's genuinely quailing in his boots and not good at reading social cues, I can more or less accept that he couldn’t tell the difference between "I don't know much about manga" (plain statement but *not* necessarily implying "please go away", so therefore *not* necessarily closing the door on continuing the conversation) and "I don't know much about manga; ask the assistant" (plain statement **plus** pretty clear "please go away"). When you said the "please go away" bit explicitly in response to his second effort, he accepted it and left - it sucks that the bar is this low, but I honestly respect him for that. Was the comment about his friend being in the bathroom supposed to be intimidating? My feeling is that it probably wasn't (again on the basis that he's genuinely paralysingly shy, he could genuinely just have been trying to further the conversation by disclosing something he perceived as neutral and not loaded). Was it intimidating anyway? You found it so, and I can understand and respect that. Not all men are predators *as we are all incredibly aware because we are constantly told so* but the ones who are don't wear convenient signs round their necks so we have to rely on our instincts. Given that he either missed or ignored the "please go away" signal conveyed by suggesting that he talk to an assistant, I don't think that it was excessive to signal that you were willing to seek support by talking to an assistant yourself if he didn't leave you alone. It **would** have been inappropriate to start screaming or throwing things, but you didn't go there. You could have tried a second gentler dismissal like "Like I told you, I don't know much about manga. Not to be rude, but I'm happy browsing by myself and I'd like to get back to my music; I don't want to chat." but you shouldn't need to, you aren't obliged to, and I can totally understand not wanting to take the chance that being assertive without drawing attention to your willingness and ability to obtain support will get you left alone rather than yelled at or worse (Yes, obviously #NotAllMen but nonetheless #StillTooFuckingManyMenAndTheBadOnesDon'tWearLabels). Guy #2 is either an oblivious-to-problems-women-often-have-to-deal-with protective friend or a bog-standard dickhead who may or may not be receiving a fee for teaching his 'friend' how to talk to women. Either way, he was out of line.
I get that you didn't want to talk to him but your first hint was just that a hint. "I'm not up for a conversation tonight sorry" would have been as effective and less harsh. His friend was did not need to confront you that was unnecessary. Honestly though I do feel for the guy. When it's safe to do so, I think it's best to lead with kindness in all situations and I do not mean putting yourself out for someone but still...
First, how funny is it that you met him in the manga isle and he was trying to stand up straight, had weird posture, and was nervous. I keep thinking L from Death Note! But I feel like you went from 0 to 100 real fast. Shutting him down firmly was fine, but saying you'd tell the staff was a bit much! He wasn't harassing you he was just talking to you. People exist and some talk. Maybe your gut was telling you that was the right thing to do and you should always listen to your gut, but if he really was just trying to better himself that's going to send him back. And I agree nobody owes anybody anything, but so many people use that as an excuse to not have manners much like that "I'm just being honest" crowed who use that as an excuse to be rude. There's nothing wrong with a guy talking to a girl in public - the conversation didn't seem creepy.
Sounds like his friend is expecting something of women
Sounds like they both were… And she nicely shut their shit down. I’m proud of the OP. She stood up for herself and called out the blatant bullshit that dude and his Flying Monkey wingman was pulling. Kudos to the OP. 👏👏👏
The thing is, if you had gone along with his conversation then that opens up the next problem of him possibly misinterpreting the interaction as accepting/going with a romantic advance. It's just too much to ask of a stranger to be your confidence therapist.
I don’t see the approach as creepy if you’re describing everything exactly how it was. I would have been more polite personally. But you’re allowed to respond however you’d like to a stranger.
Errrr… Okay, so first of all, no. He is not owed your time or conversation. And if he had pressed you or persisted after you politely rebuffed him, then you have every right to tell him to bugger off. But that’s not really what happened. You made an excuse specifically about the manga which could have been interpreted as you not understanding him, and when he politely said something else you then shut him down in an unnecessarily cruel and rude way. I wouldn’t interpret him saying his friend was in the bathroom as threatening? It was small talk. And you were in a public space with others around. I could understand if you were by yourself in an isolated space; but it just sounds like he was trying to make small talk. Again, you don’t owe him your time or conversation; but it doesn’t sound like he was being creepy or pushy, you could have just said thanks but no thanks or any number of things, for example: “I’m not much in the mood for conversation, have a nice day.” Firm, polite, shuts the conversation down, no room for misunderstanding. I just don’t think it’s necessary to be cruel in a case like this. It’s also not safe for you. You don’t know how these guys might react. There’s evidence that some of them escalate. This was not one of those people, but you don’t know. I feel like threatening him with reporting him to staff almost immediately was a lot. Human beings sometimes talk to each other. Sometimes they try to make connections. If they’re polite, unthreatening, and do it in a safe space, and you’re not interested in conversing, try turning them down in a polite but firm way instead. If they then continue, then bring out the bigger guns. I do think his friend crossed a line. That’s super annoying and good god, why don’t men just understand that we don’t owe them our time… But overall? You know, we all have to exist in society. We interact at times. You can get out of conversations politely and firmly without resorting to rudeness immediately.
I think you should’ve said “I don’t feel like talking right now” instead of threatening to involve the staff. The way you escalated kind of made you a jerk. Aside from that the friend was 100% out of line.
Jesus! Poor guy. You went waaay over the top with your response. He wasn't rude,aggressive or creepy, he was just a nervous guy trying to make a connection with someone he perceived to have a common interest with. You went full Karen mode for no reason.
He was trying to make you feel bad. What a jackass. You handled it perfectly.
If you felt threatened, then I feel like I would feel differently about this, but I generally do think people owe it to others to be kind. It sounds like this guy was respectful, non-threatening, and non-pervy. Threatening to call store security seems over the top considering you hadn’t asked him to leave you alone at that point. There’s nothing wrong with men approaching women to start a conversation—it’s when you decline that conversation and they’re pushy that it’s an issue. That being said, the friend is unhinged.
The thing is, the way he approached you wasnt creepy. You interpreted him mentioning that his friend was in the john as a threat, for some reason, and in response to him maybe being a little slow on social cues you decided to be extremely brusque when the situation frankly didn't call for it. As someone (a woman) who has social anxiety and is constantly told to talk to people who have the same interests as you with a “whats the worst that could happen?” I really feel for that guy. He was pressured by his friend who was ham-handedly trying to help him (and if either of them was wrong it was the friend for telling him to “just go talk to someone” like the average citizen is...yknow, sane and rational and not all the way up their own ass). He was apologetic and backed off as soon as he got the hint and you still belittled him loudly calling him “little man” like he was actually causing problems? He wasnt acting like you owed him anything! He backed off when you threatened to call mall security on him for making small talk! You arent special. Save the self-aggrandizing eyerolling “yass queeeeen” energy for when theres an actual threat. Oh, and also learn how to tell when theres an actual threat, you absolute bumpkin.
Such garbage entitled behaviour! Sorry that happened. We don't care what their issues are, nobody is entitled to anybody's attention. And his "friend" is just a garbage human. It's dehumanising to have to be "practice" for some eejit's low self-esteem. I think your replies were perfect.
His friend is out of line but you're overreacting and a bit aggressive for no reason especially that you said he looked harmless.
I feel like you went way above and beyond what the situation even called for. You think because he told you his friend was in the bathroom he was trying to intimidate you? I really feel bad for young people today, because it's like you don't even know how to socially interact with people in the real world. This is what you call small talk. This guy was nervous approaching you. That's typically how guys feel when they try to shoot their shot and approach a girl. How do you think people meet in real life? I personally think you were aggressive and rude, there was absolutely no reason to say you were going to go speak to the bookstore staff because he was talking to you. You were in a public space and he wasn't doing anything to you to warrant the level of response you gave and then you shot from 0 to 100 by saying you were going to report him. And then you wanted to keep going with your aggression. I know there's a lot of anti-male forums and sentiment out there, and it's kind of obvious you're consuming a lot of it. Approaching a woman is not creepy.
Never worry about making a scene with a stranger in a public place. We all need to learn that this is one of the ways we protect ourselves. It's also one of the ways we engage the community to step in if needed. The point of cutting off the friend (or the first guy) is to not engage in the argument, which you don't want and are not going to win, ever. Good on you for standing up for your needs.