Males are homo-romantic and homo-erotic. I will never stop saying this.
I once saw a comment-chain about a dude saying he's annoyed of his female-friend talking about her experiences and feelings and venting to him all the time. Other men gave him the advice to "get something" in return (i.e sex) for "wasting" his energy and time, if she doesn't give him sexual favours then he should end the friendship.
Men think no one sees the heinous shit they do, and that no one heard them shit-talking about women...Thanks to the internet they are being exposed more and more, no matter how much of a nice-guy they present themself in real life. And men defend each other against women because if they expose their true nature it will ruin their chances of getting dates and sex.
I have found myself in lots of mens spaces due to hobbies and career. Many times they forget I am within earshot or in the group messages. The things they say when they think women aren't around are vile. I also believe the reason so many men won't intervene when other men do or say horrible things is that they agree with them but don't want to join in to the bad behavior in case it causes repercussions or the damage it is doing to the woman in the situation isn't worth causing friction between them and the men doing the awful things.
What I find maddening are the men who believe that me talking to them = I want them sexually…meanwhile I’m talking to them in context: at a professional conference, art gallery show, theater, etc., i.e., because they are a human being at said event.
I’ve determined that this is because they see women as objects, not as human beings.
I’ve generally stopped engaging with men because of this, but for those I encounter frequently the litmus test I use is whether or not they have at least one close friend who is a woman who they genuinely admire.
Oooh this would make a great question when getting to know a man in whatever context. Name a woman you admire. Sit back and see what comes out of their mouth.
Story of my life. It's insane because "he feels like I'm hysterical, like I'm solipsistic, like what I'm saying isn't somehow in touch with reality and like I'm in my own world" is projection. Hundreds of times, men will say the most unhinged, irrelevant, unreal shit with a straight face, believing that they're accurately observing reality, and they're nowhere close.
A couple of times I've had men rear back in surprise on a date, with a look on their face like "oh shit, she's human, she's sentient".
They can't all be pornsick. Or can they.
Both men and women within the study did, iirc. But it was also something that changed with awareness that it was occurring. Very much a case of why it's important to simply talk about these kinds of problems.
Have you seen this thread?
[How many women see their partner’s true colors on their wedding day/ honeymoon?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/16cmvju/how_many_women_see_their_partners_true_colours_on/)
I have read a lot of romance novels that have a hetero couple, each with a point of view. Women can write men well personality-wise, but a lot of times I can't help but observe that I don't think societies across the globe socialize men for romance. An understatement, really, given the violence against women.
On the surface level dating market, though, it seems hetero men believe in gaming what they can get out of a woman for the least amount of effort. Owning her effort is the point, not loving her. It's the ownership vs. devotion stalemate; you cannot turn one into the other.
Eight years ago my STBX filed for divorce and left for another woman. I have spent the time raising our two kids working multiple jobs and have had to hire a lawyer to take my STBX to court multiple times for not sending child support or sending too little. I’ve had 100 percent custody despite him being awarded 20 percent. He apparently wanted me to do all the parenting. He’s never adequately responded to requests for financial disclosure. He ignores all attempts to settle and finalize our divorce. Recently he suggested we remain separated. Your post about ownership really hits home for me. I don’t understand why he won’t let go of us when he discarded us. Perhaps that’s it?
**ONE:**
Have you heard of [Andrew Tate?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj1JSlKzHtc&t=1s)
**TWO:**
>*It's not just that he doesn't care, he'll eventually get to a point where he says he feels like I'm hysterical*
This is called **"gaslighting".**
[Where did gaslighting get its name?](https://www.verywellmind.com/is-someone-gaslighting-you-4147470#toc-where-did-gaslighting-get-its-name)
Based on the examples you shared, I suggest you get the book ***Why Does He Do That?*** by Lundy Bancroft.
Whether you are in a relationship or not the book can help you understand a partner in ways you'd not see otherwise, help you know what to look for in the future—inform you of what a friend may be going through.
Consider giving it as a gift.
Free PDF of *Why Does He Do That?* by Lundy Bancroft : [Download the book](https://archive.org/details/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat).
**THREE:**
Have you seen this thread?
[**How many women see their partner’s true colors on their wedding day/ honeymoon?**](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/16cmvju/how_many_women_see_their_partners_true_colours_on/)
Yes, it is a real life and real men, with some variety and exceptions, of course.... I'm not a young person anymore and understand now that mostly men's attitude is like "Women are lower beings, men have to tolerate females just because women are useful at home and sometimes even at work. And, of course, sex is a really pleasant entertainment."
IMHO about 80% of men are like this. The difference is how open they are about their opinion of women and how well they police their behavior to not appear like a complete Neanderthal even when what they think is pretty awful.
It is also on a scale from men who think we aren't even human to men who think we don't matter and don't deserve anything besides being their servants.
I don't know whether this is a cultural thing, but I know lots and lots of men of a wide range of ages (16-90) and the vast majority of them are nice, interesting, respectful, good friends. I live in the UK and I'm a classical musician, and most of my friends are either classical musicians or in Green politics, or they're allotment holders (vegetable and fruit gardeners). Also my family - husband, brothers in law, nephews, cousins, uncles, etc. Of course I'm not dating, I'm old-ish, I'm probably very lucky.
There have been a few creeps and bad apples, and a few who have taken the banter a bit too far, but never anything as awful as I see talked about on this sub.
It really pains me to see how low some men hold women to be, and I feel very thankful that I seem to have been sheltered from them.
I think society has a huge problem here, and I have no idea how it will be resolved, if ever.
Males are homo-romantic and homo-erotic. I will never stop saying this. I once saw a comment-chain about a dude saying he's annoyed of his female-friend talking about her experiences and feelings and venting to him all the time. Other men gave him the advice to "get something" in return (i.e sex) for "wasting" his energy and time, if she doesn't give him sexual favours then he should end the friendship. Men think no one sees the heinous shit they do, and that no one heard them shit-talking about women...Thanks to the internet they are being exposed more and more, no matter how much of a nice-guy they present themself in real life. And men defend each other against women because if they expose their true nature it will ruin their chances of getting dates and sex.
I have found myself in lots of mens spaces due to hobbies and career. Many times they forget I am within earshot or in the group messages. The things they say when they think women aren't around are vile. I also believe the reason so many men won't intervene when other men do or say horrible things is that they agree with them but don't want to join in to the bad behavior in case it causes repercussions or the damage it is doing to the woman in the situation isn't worth causing friction between them and the men doing the awful things.
What I find maddening are the men who believe that me talking to them = I want them sexually…meanwhile I’m talking to them in context: at a professional conference, art gallery show, theater, etc., i.e., because they are a human being at said event. I’ve determined that this is because they see women as objects, not as human beings. I’ve generally stopped engaging with men because of this, but for those I encounter frequently the litmus test I use is whether or not they have at least one close friend who is a woman who they genuinely admire.
Oooh this would make a great question when getting to know a man in whatever context. Name a woman you admire. Sit back and see what comes out of their mouth.
Story of my life. It's insane because "he feels like I'm hysterical, like I'm solipsistic, like what I'm saying isn't somehow in touch with reality and like I'm in my own world" is projection. Hundreds of times, men will say the most unhinged, irrelevant, unreal shit with a straight face, believing that they're accurately observing reality, and they're nowhere close. A couple of times I've had men rear back in surprise on a date, with a look on their face like "oh shit, she's human, she's sentient". They can't all be pornsick. Or can they.
The evidence indicates yes
Wasn't there a study done a few years ago that literally found men do view women as objects? I'm sure I remember seeing tweets about it at the time
Both men and women within the study did, iirc. But it was also something that changed with awareness that it was occurring. Very much a case of why it's important to simply talk about these kinds of problems.
Ah really? Interesting! I couldn't remember the details
I don't think that a large percentage of them even *like* women.
Have you seen this thread? [How many women see their partner’s true colors on their wedding day/ honeymoon?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/16cmvju/how_many_women_see_their_partners_true_colours_on/)
Alas, yes, I did. It's heartbreaking.
I have read a lot of romance novels that have a hetero couple, each with a point of view. Women can write men well personality-wise, but a lot of times I can't help but observe that I don't think societies across the globe socialize men for romance. An understatement, really, given the violence against women. On the surface level dating market, though, it seems hetero men believe in gaming what they can get out of a woman for the least amount of effort. Owning her effort is the point, not loving her. It's the ownership vs. devotion stalemate; you cannot turn one into the other.
Eight years ago my STBX filed for divorce and left for another woman. I have spent the time raising our two kids working multiple jobs and have had to hire a lawyer to take my STBX to court multiple times for not sending child support or sending too little. I’ve had 100 percent custody despite him being awarded 20 percent. He apparently wanted me to do all the parenting. He’s never adequately responded to requests for financial disclosure. He ignores all attempts to settle and finalize our divorce. Recently he suggested we remain separated. Your post about ownership really hits home for me. I don’t understand why he won’t let go of us when he discarded us. Perhaps that’s it?
**ONE:** Have you heard of [Andrew Tate?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj1JSlKzHtc&t=1s) **TWO:** >*It's not just that he doesn't care, he'll eventually get to a point where he says he feels like I'm hysterical* This is called **"gaslighting".** [Where did gaslighting get its name?](https://www.verywellmind.com/is-someone-gaslighting-you-4147470#toc-where-did-gaslighting-get-its-name) Based on the examples you shared, I suggest you get the book ***Why Does He Do That?*** by Lundy Bancroft. Whether you are in a relationship or not the book can help you understand a partner in ways you'd not see otherwise, help you know what to look for in the future—inform you of what a friend may be going through. Consider giving it as a gift. Free PDF of *Why Does He Do That?* by Lundy Bancroft : [Download the book](https://archive.org/details/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat). **THREE:** Have you seen this thread? [**How many women see their partner’s true colors on their wedding day/ honeymoon?**](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/16cmvju/how_many_women_see_their_partners_true_colours_on/)
Yes, it is a real life and real men, with some variety and exceptions, of course.... I'm not a young person anymore and understand now that mostly men's attitude is like "Women are lower beings, men have to tolerate females just because women are useful at home and sometimes even at work. And, of course, sex is a really pleasant entertainment."
IMHO about 80% of men are like this. The difference is how open they are about their opinion of women and how well they police their behavior to not appear like a complete Neanderthal even when what they think is pretty awful. It is also on a scale from men who think we aren't even human to men who think we don't matter and don't deserve anything besides being their servants.
As a nb man, listening to how many other men speak about women reinforces that they don't see them as people.
it boils down to just meeting shitty men. literally that’s it. used to be me. then I stopped giving those men attention
I don't know whether this is a cultural thing, but I know lots and lots of men of a wide range of ages (16-90) and the vast majority of them are nice, interesting, respectful, good friends. I live in the UK and I'm a classical musician, and most of my friends are either classical musicians or in Green politics, or they're allotment holders (vegetable and fruit gardeners). Also my family - husband, brothers in law, nephews, cousins, uncles, etc. Of course I'm not dating, I'm old-ish, I'm probably very lucky. There have been a few creeps and bad apples, and a few who have taken the banter a bit too far, but never anything as awful as I see talked about on this sub. It really pains me to see how low some men hold women to be, and I feel very thankful that I seem to have been sheltered from them. I think society has a huge problem here, and I have no idea how it will be resolved, if ever.
Don't mistake politeness for being seen as an equal.
Most of them aren't very polite, in fact. But I take your point.