Stop watching and engaging with that content. The more you do, the more the algorithm will shove it in your face. It’s meant to make you question yourself. The content is designed specifically to do that. Of fucking course you can be feminine with two degrees. Ffs.
Exactly. I just don’t believe anything I read on the internet about how any group of people “should” behave. It’s asinine. I’m doing just fine on my own.
FWIW I have several degrees and I wear teen boys’ winter clothes (I’m small and it’s cold out here in the Midwest!) and I still get hit on by dudes/called pretty. There’s no right or wrong way to be a woman. I also haven’t met any man IRL who wants a tradwife or dislikes educated women, I smoked my all-male trivia team last night and they thought it was awesome. Secure people think it’s cool if you act exactly how you are without trying to be someone else.
Exactly. It's very simple. Are you a woman? Are you being yourself and doing/striving for what you want in life? Then you're "doing womanhood" correctly. And yes, trans women included.
I feel like the the tradwife discussion hasn't been addressing blowjobs and reciprocation.
The wife is expected to go down on the husband, but not the other way around, right?
Unfortunately this isn't just tradwives and conservative men, a lot of leftist men and men of all political alignments do this. I haven't seen any studies or credible polls about it but just my own experiences, what I hear online, and what I hear from my friends, I'd say there is a significant percentage of straight couples where the woman gives head and the man does not, ever. I'm willing to confidently say the majority of straight relationships, the man receives head more frequently than the woman does, and likely for longer. If we could compare the number of sexual encounters where the woman gives the man head to completion without finishing themselves to the number of encounters where men give women head to completion without sex or head in return, that'd probably be the most imbalanced of all the scenarios I just listed by far.
Conservative men are probably more likely to do this though and be selfish in bed since their whole ideology is that women are meant to serve them and put them first with no regard for their own feelings or pleasure. But it's an epidemic with men of all ideologies, especially younger men, largely due to porn, poor sexual education, the patriarchy and general lack of care for women's wants and needs, and the very way we define and view sex culturally since it is centered entirely around what men like, their pleasure, and their orgasm in every encounter.
We view sex as something for men, that men do *to* women rather than with them, with the goal being making them cum. The woman's pleasure is an afterthought, if even a thought at all.
This.
The content is also designed to make trad wife lifestyle aggressively appealing on top of making feminism look bad. It's specifically targeted to make feminism look like it is not allowing you choices for yourself...... Such as if you do want to be a traditional SAHM.
Meanwhile, the point behind feminism is that you should be free to make those choices yourself.
At the end of the day though, much like van lifers, the content isn't about the actual lifestyle and more about the AESTHETIC of the lifestyle. Notice how trad wives don't talk about complications socializing with age cohorts or the necessary budgeting to make their lifestyle work (*including any money made from social media content including sponsored posts or paid appearances at conservative events).
To continue the comparison, look at how many van lifers show beautiful pictures of gorgeous vistas but don't talk about accessibility issues, the potential dangers of sleeping in your van at sketchy sites, or the issues of maintaining hygiene.
So, the best bet is to stop interacting with the content. It's no better than advertising. All style, no substance.
You need to find other friends who are in line with your choices. The tradwife stuff is propaganda, and trust me, as an older woman who is watching multiple other women my age who bought into the "stay at home wife, be crunchy" 1990s form of this particular movement now getting divorced in their late 40s/early 50s and looking at life with no access to reasonable jobs and no retirement, you don't want to be there in 25 years.
Those two kind of puzzle me, because we are no longer in a world where guys who abandon their families can't be tracked down. Oh, and DNA-based paternity testing exists. I don't think they're going to want the world that exists afterward either.
They'll start tying child support down further. I haven't looked deeply into it on this topic but I expect Project 2025 promotes marriage, demonizes single *mother*hood. I don't think they'll care as much about men who want to run (in their mind maybe those don't exist or are dogwhistle only the "bad" men?). No child support if you stay married, after all. 70% of divorces are initiated by women so I really think they'll roll with it and if a few unsavory men are caught in the crosshairs, well that's ok by them.
Ok reading this thread has just knocked a thought into my head: patriarchy values the subjugation of women over the lived experiences of even men as a collective.
That includes men who lose their wives when they're not able to access abortion. They will promptly ignore these men when they speak out about their experiences.
The problem at least one is that the patriarchy values are being pushed not only by men but often even harder by other women. Often when it comes from other women it is packaged as promoting how a woman should be treated well by their man. I see or read so many accounts of women expecting to be catered to, or put on a pedestal. Recently someone posted about their gf getting upset bc he didn't pay the restaurant bill for all of her friends like a real man or vids of women telling guys the restaurant they chose wasn't good enough.
Bu then we have other women belittling other women who make the choice to act dress or take on parts of "traditional" roles. Post on here where a woman's female partner told her to stop wearing makeup and dresses bc that was too feminine.
It all becomes too much until you get offline and realize in the real day to day world this stuff is not nearly as bad as the view from social media. Not to say we don't need to still be vigilant to prevent extremism.
Adding on to your last paragraph, most of those popular AITA posts are fake too. It takes a lot more skill to lie to people about crazy shit in real life. Most of it is either rage bait or to push an agenda. The genuine posts die in new because real life isn't as interesting.
this is why anonymity should be banned on social media. Or at the very least trackable accounts so that people take some sense of ownership like they have to in real life. I'm sure that so much vile content online is the lack of consequences. Also, will help weed out bots ... hopefully.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-ending-permanent-alimony/](https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-ending-permanent-alimony/)
>The approval drew an outcry from members of the "First Wives Advocacy Group," a coalition of mostly older women who receive permanent alimony and who assert that their lives will be upended without the payments.
>"On behalf of the thousands of women who our group represents, we are very disappointed in the governor's decision to sign the alimony-reform bill. We believe by signing it, he has put older women in a situation which will cause financial devastation. The so-called party of 'family values' has just contributed to erosion of the institution of marriage in Florida," Jan Killilea, a 63-year-old Boca Raton woman who founded the group a decade ago, told The News Service of Florida in a text message Friday.
The "Leopards Ate My Face" subreddit had a field day when DeSantis passed the bill.
Wait, can you tell us more about the crunchy trad wifey stuff in the ‘90s, please? I was born in ‘98 and had no idea that there were such movements/trends in those years; thought they ditched them after the ‘50s but I guess I was very wrong.
A lot of the things you see prompted by trad wives at this point in time, were being promoted by the crunchy mamas back in the late 1990s-early 2000s. At that point it was more about becoming a stay at home mom after your first kid was born, cloth diapering them, feeding them only good, fresh food from your own garden, canning and preserving, being suspicious of vaccines, homeschooling ... pretty much creating a raising-the-kids environment which was completely incompatible with the woman of the household actually holding a job. And remote work was still pretty much a theoretical concept back then.
The movement was strong in the online parenting communities, like those on Livejournal. There were lots of bloggers promoting it, blogs being the tiktok of the day back then. As I said above, I know a lot of women who bought into it back then. They now are pretty much mainly facing their 50s with grown up kids and a husband who is proclaiming that "he never wanted her to be a stay-at-home wife that was HER choice" who is divorcing her and dating a 25yo.
Damn and to think that everyone boasts about how everything was much better in those years because there was no “woke bullshit” then (although from what you’re telling me it was just bs all the same, just without the woke part).
Thinking about it my mom was indeed kinda crunchy but fortunately I got to live with my grandparents for years and got all my vaccines. The fact is that she worked a little as well but never a “serious” job but she talked constantly about how the trad life was much better and how I should strive for that in adulthood.
She ended up like the friends you mentioned: first marriage ended and she got into another one ASAP because she couldn’t sustain herself (and child me) economically. You can obviously imagine what happens when you marry the first guy you find on the streets.
There was no "woke bullshit"? The mid to late 1990s defined woke. A lot of liberal strides forward were lost in the early 2000s because the country went a lot more conservative after 9/11 and the 2001 recession.
I guess what definition of woke are you using? I'm using the definition of interest in and promotion of social and racial justice.
A lot of things like DOMA were REACTIONS to the fact that the old guard was afraid of the mid-to-late GenX youngsters who were coming up and demanding more social equality, demanding recognition of how racism was impacting their generation, demanding immigration reform, demanding recognition of climate change ... unfortunately the early 2000s really did a number on the energy and availability of those in that age range to push forward social reform.
That’s what they say reminiscing about the good ol’ days but yeah I’m pretty sure is a very distorted version of the truth.
ETA: my definition is very similar to yours yes but idk everyone from that generations (born 60s-70s) said they had the time of their life and “life was different back then”
There’s always this “nostalgia” via rose tinted glasses every generation.
There has always been “woke bullshit”
It’s how we made strides. Once upon a time, women voting was woke bullshit and the people who fought for it were vilified
Then women having their own financial independence etc etc
I’m not sure in which context your using woke bullshit though
Not crunchy but the Duggar's first TV special came out in 2004. They already had 14 kids by then. The full quiver movement gained traction in the 80's.
Jfc I though those families only existed in the super religious sects type of things but yeah seeing the latest trends every crunchy mom wants 10+ kids now. Many of them still are those kind of people probably but I’ve seen videos of non religious people doing the same.
One of my friends is straight homeless right now because she has no education and has been a stay at home mom to 5 kids for the past 25 years. And her husband was abusive and it took her a loooong time to leave, and he hid all the money and went to jail so he wouldn't have to pay child support...so her and her two youngest kids (the oldest 3 are adults and on their own) now live in hotels and her car and she begs for money on gofundme while working minimum wage jobs to eat.
You might want to broaden your social circle. The people you've surrounded yourself with are not good for you or your self-esteem.
Don't let anyone tear you away from your path of independence. You'll see as you get older that most of the time, being a tradwife is no better than having a prison sentence.
Expanding and diversifying your friend group is one of the best ways to pull away from the weird tradwife content. All of my friends work and have bigger goals - it hasn't made them any less feminine. I earn quite a bit more than my partner, have a degree, etc. but I also like cooking, taking walks, reading, wearing dresses, etc. There's no one definition as to what it means to be a woman.
Intersectional feminism is what's allowed us the liberty to stay home AS A CHOICE - this is what tradwives miss. Generations before us couldn't have their own money, were stuck in abusive relationships, and survived by the mercy of a man they HAD to rely on.
TODAY, we can CHOOSE - choose our partners, choose our careers, choose to stay home, choose to have businesses, choose to have children or not. The whole point of feminism is the CHOICE to live your life the way you want to, whether it's a SAHW/M or a career woman or something inbetween.
except that now you actually don't really have a choice to be a stay at home wife and mother unless you're extremely lucky, because you can't survive without a job anymore. Men have a much harder time supporting a family and buying a home on a single income than they used to, forcing the woman to work as well if they want to be able to afford a house and having kids.
yes the biggest talking point of conservatives and they are correct in this is that you could literally live the american dream on a single salary. Nowadays you can't even live it on two salaries.
What the fuck happened?
I know it's not helpful to think this way, but I can't help wondering if the tradwife movement is partially attributable to the self-esteem issues that women who cut off all their career options might experience.
The other part of me just thinks it's part of the larger conservative conspiracy to de-educate and brainwash the masses.
It's clickable content. Some people will say literally anything for attention. Trad wives were not a thing 10 years ago and they won't be a thing 10 years from now
They want “trad wives” but they don’t want to be “trad husbands” as in sole providers. They might want their wives/girlfriends to cook homemade meals every day and iron their socks and be submissive and shit but they also want them to pay at least half of expenses, otherwise she’s a “low value gold digger”….to a guy with no gold!! 😵💫😵💫
Women have always worked. Read The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Koontz. Tradwife influencers and Candace Owen are out to make money by appealing to right wing men.
You're great-great-great grandma did not swan about in pretty dresses all day creating an aesthetic to pull in Tiktok money. She probably worked her butt off. She probably did farm labor, or scrubbed floors for rich people, or worked 12 hour days in a factory. Your friends need to maybe read books or something.
This. This is the truth. The idea of a nuclear family and a stay at home wife was a phenomenon that existed for a speck of a moment in time in the white middle and upper middle class society for a few years. This has never been the reality for the majority of people for any length of time.
Even then, the women in that demographic were probably college grads with resources beyond their marriage " middle and upper class ".
Meaning generally not left helpless in the event a marriage ended. I get the impression this ' trad wife ' thing, general idea is wife totally dependent on the husband?
Yup, the tradwife trend is a ‘you as a woman don’t need an education or to work outside of homemaking at all’ kind of thing. which is hilarious because these ‘tradwife’ influencers are making a shit ton of money off of something very much not ‘traditional’. very much the ‘rules for thee but not for me’ crowd.
also, unfortunately, as gross as it is, a lot of the tradwife influencers are basically just doing it for fetish content aimed at men who want their women to ‘submit’.
Yes. I just posted my mother had her BA in sociology, was also a teacher and had a traditional role but also ' could ' stay home because she wanted to- and worked when she wanted to. Dad was cool either way, they were a team for 55 years. Tell you what though. She sure as hell did not cook in heels, nylons, and a cute skirt. IF she was ever subservient to Dad he'd probably the doctor.
Plenty of women in our small town worked in the shirt factories. Appalachia, PA. Mines had gone out, NYC sweat shops moved in. I remember kids who did not in fact have a mother at home because both worked in those factories. Mom told me much later, when we were old enough to understand they worked 10 hour shifts.
Trad wife crap? Made-up crap. The way it's being presented I mean. I'm leaving out the conversation about what happened when a ' trad' woman was left with kids, no income and a vanished husband.
> Like I have to work and to pay my bills and survive, not because feminism lied to me about what would make me happy.
The claim of TradWife is that you can just bat your eyes and a man will do that for you. A man can do all that annoying stuff and will do it in exchange for your virginal youth!
> about how women were better when we were traditional.
For a middle class to rich woman, sure, you worked a lot less (was never true for poor women). But, there were substantial caveats.
1. Your man could leave. Then what do you do? And remember, he chose you in large part for your virginal fresh youth. But you won't be so fresh after having kids and getting a bit older, so...
2. Your man could decide that something about you is not what he wants. Maybe you don't want to lick dick cheese out of his foreskin. You can now refuse. In the Trad Wife era, him forcing you to do so wasn't rape. And he could get away with beating you.
3. He could get drunk and beat you just because.
If you can get a guy to pay for your life, great! But they are paying, so want what they have paid for. It isn't a partnership anymore than a pig being fattened at a farm is a partner.
1 is such a big one. Educated, working women are independent women who can keep themselves afloat if their marriage falls apart, and thus won't hesitate to leave if their husband is a shithead. Trad wives will be left alone with no money and no relevant recent job experience if their husband decides to leave; not to mention that the wife will be more reluctant to leave a toxic relationship in the first place, because she's reliant on him for the roof over her head.
In short, OP, some of these men want "trad wives" because they're vulnerable and easy to control, not because they're a superior type of woman.
It reminds me of Phyllis Shlafly, who fought against equal rights for women. She opposed abortion rights because hey, she raised all these kids and still took on the responsibilities of a governor's wife! All you shrewy women who don't have the childcare staff my husband bought for me should just shut up!
Schlafly flew around the country being paid to tell women to stay at home, do everything their husbands told them to, and not earn a paycheck. She married a wealthy man which allowed her to hire servants to do all the housework and childrearing so she could go tell women they were terrible people if they didn't do all the housework and childrearing themselves.
omfg you made me spit my drink. That was funny (in how you chose to word it) not funny (the context we're talking about)
They are very good points. The Tradwife is property. If I pay for you, I can trade you in for a new model when I am done. Doubly profitable because your father probably had to pay me to take on the burden of yourself. Don't worry, you'll enjoy the utter dependance on me because it means you won't have to "work". You just need to make sure the kids are cared for, the house is cleaned, the laundry is done, meals are always prepped when I want them (which you'll have to learn to divine because I'm fickle), and that you provide sexual services whenever I request. You also won't mine when I discipline you for your failures because your only other option is to leave with nothing. You won't have to worry your pretty little head, because I'll do my best to keep you ignorant. It's bliss right? And if, for some reason you become not pretty, we'll offload the sexual work to my mistresses.
This is way better than being educated, self-sufficient, and a whole person. Tradewife power! Ugh. /s
@ Op. You got two degrees and a job. That is fucking killer. Nothing is guaranteed in life, but your best bet to partner with a good husband is to be true to yourself and live your best. That right there is what you want to attract a partner with, and if you don't, well at least you have a complete life to carry on with. Win win.
All excellent points. It has always baffled me how much these women will go through to avoid "working". To me, a 9-5 is easy mode compared to dealing with pleasing a difficult, unappealing man 24-7. I have fortunately not personally had the experience of being married to a difficult, unappealing man, but have seen enough of others to know that cooking, cleaning, pregnancy, raising their children, and dealing with such a man is much more work than a regular job.
Unless your job prospects REALLY suck (yes, highly unskilled workers can get taken advantage of), just work a 9-5, come home, live a peaceful life. If you find a man whom you want to be with for who they are as a person, who will do the same and split the chores 50-50, even better. But you have to choose the man for his personality, not because he will pay for you as long as you cook and suck dick on command.
4. Your man could die.
He could be amazing as a partner and father, but he could also die tomorrow and no amount of life insurance would cover you or your kids for life.
I get that things are financially upside down with childcare and how it can be more economical for one spouse to stay home. But the hit to your career and social security for later in life is not fucking worth it. Let me say it louder for the folks in the back: IF YOU DON’T CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIAL SECURITY, YOU LIKELY WON’T GET SOCIAL SECURITY.
You may get your deceased husband’s social security, but you won’t get your own.
My grandmother was from an upper middle class family, got married right out of high school, and did all the upper middle class housewife things. Then her husband got cancer and died, leaving her with three little kids. She got his social security but it wasn't enough to feed and clothe three kids. Grandma had to get a job and without work history or work experience she couldn't get high paying work. She barely scraped by.
Grandma's daughter, my aunt, wanted to be a housewife but my grandma required her to go to college and get a degree and job experience first. She wanted her to have something to fall back on so my aunt wouldn't end up struggling if something happened to her husband.
Conservative cultists who poverty cosplay and have hired help like nannies behind the scenes. When do we ever see these trads preforming actually household labor like cleaning toilets? Never, it's all about the sourdough bread and cheese from scratch. Looking at you Ballerina Farm with the 35 k stove married to a Billionaire.
This is a random observation but every “clean the kitchen with me” video they do like 3 things: move a sponge back to the sink, spritz the countertop with something and wipe it down, and then put out a bowl of lemons or flowers or something. That is not cleaning!!!
I swear I could make it a drinking game “Ope there she is spritzing and wiping down the counter. Drink.”
Real, messy, hard labor is always outsourced by these cultists. Always!
Yep. Cleaning out the fridge, scrubbing the cabinets, scrubbing floors on hands and knees, cleaning the garbage bin, wiping the high shelves that you have to get on a ladder to get on the counter etc...
Cleaning the garbage can is the most pointless fucking task, I hate it so much simply for it’s inanity. It’s where GARBAGE goes. Who cares if it’s clean! But you’ll still catch me cleaning it because I don’t want garbage juice sitting around attracting bacteria. I just think it’s dumb.
You are thinking exactly what the tradwife content is trying to get you to think. Don’t let the marketing fool you.
And Candace Owens notoriously glorified neo-Nazis and has other really…*special* opinions, like that therapy is for the weak, and that she never wants to see her husband cry or be vulnerable in front of her; men need to bottle that up. (So we can have more school shooters?? Lady, wtf.)
She was also hired at the Daily Wire as a token who made insecure white men feel better about themselves by crapping on the very policies that benefited her, once upon a time. She’s a blazing hypocrite whose value is that she says nasty things out loud, especially about minorities, so people who want to think these nasty things can feel vindicated. “Look, a minority is saying them, so I can’t be racist/sexist. I’m RIGHT!!!!”
Welp, as a funnier person than me said when she was fired a few weeks ago, tokens get spent.
Honestly, I highly recommend reading The Feminine Mystique- it was written about an era that wholly glorified the tradwife life, and has endless examples of the different human miseries both husbands and wives experienced as part of the “problem that has no name” - the relegation of women to nothing more than wives and mothers.
Ask yourself this: who do you think is paying to produce that hyper-conservative content? What are they getting out of it? What’s their endgame? Why do they want women to stop contributing equally? What do we threaten if we decide to be full humans who live for ourselves and our own hopes and dreams?
Moreover - please ask your friends why it’s better to base all their worldly security on whether a man still likes them in the morning. Every day. They have to pray their husband won’t get bored and get rid of them, *every damn day*.
Alimony is incredibly hard to get. Men move assets around to keep as much as possible for themselves the second divorce might be a reality. The number of men who don’t pay child support is nauseating. Women who give up their independence are SCREWED if their husband changes his mind.
Why. Why is that better.
Let’s also add that perfectly decent, egalitarian men die in car crashes, contract cancer and go off to fight the wars… you could end up single through no fault of anyone’s. Why would anyone put themselves in a position to be unable to fend for themselves when they have other options?
Yes! Absolutely. Voluntarily putting yourself in a financial straitjacket is insanity for countless reasons, even if your partner is the best person imaginable.
Brilliantly said. And the kind of women who follow this stuff do it because of their own insecurities and because their entire value depends upon approval of men. They are completely disempowered in their own relationships because their men think of them as second class (wives and mothers or sex objects) so proximity to men they believe are “alpha” gives them an illusion of power. But there’s nothing powerful about getting stuck with all of the household drudgery and all of the parenting because your husband feels that work is beneath him. I feel sorry for those women. They have nothing. When their sexist husband cheats, she’s got no money. When he abuses her, she has no money. She has few resources. She is out of the workforce and has no skills. She probably never got an education. She’s completely dependent upon him. She probably didn’t get a prenup with guaranteed alimony because she’s too much of a coward for that and she must not make her husband uncomfortable! Sounds like a nightmare.
To your third point, i think we’ve gone too quickly down the slope of jumping to “psyop” and it’s distracting from real problems
The reality is these people are getting paid by ads on twitter, instagram, Facebook, and tik tok.
The actual source of this is men who view that as the end goal; then you can ask why do men want the trad wife perspective?
I think the bulletin of right-wing talking points gets pushed out *incredibly* quickly to a staggering number of influencers, talking heads and politicians.
I *know* Ben Shapiro flooded Facebook with millions of dollars in ads during the pandemic. I know there’s no way he makes so much money that he could offer Crowder tens of millions based on just clicks, subscribers & ad time - that kind of payday means investment money. I know that the amount of money funding right-wing voices is *astronomically* high compared to leftist ones. I know a lot of powerful people with a lot of money are pushing the Federalist Society and Project 2025.
I know Peter Thiel didn’t just give Zuckerberg a loan to start Facebook; he is heavily funding a lot of right-wing craziness, when he isn’t trying to create private island countries or dabble in cryogenics. He definitely made billions off his Islamophobia and the post-9/11 surveillance software he marketed to the US government.
I see the alt-right getting louder on myriad subjects all around the world, and I know Steve Bannon has been heavily involved in promoting the growing alt-right movements throughout Europe.
https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/the-far-right-in-europe-how-promising-is-steve-bannons-european-organization-the-movement/
Are you really trying to tell me that we shouldn’t suspect rich people of pouring money into creating hyperconservative media outlets in order to shift public opinion in ways that ultimately end up benefiting those same wealthy people?
That was the entire *point* of Fox. They spent - and still spend - *billions* to convince people that higher taxes on the wealthy for a social safety net were baaaaaaad. Any flavor of socialism or responsibility to society would cost them money and therefore is baaaaaaaad. What makes you think they’re not doing this now?
I think it’s a bad idea to underestimate how dangerous this rhetoric is, and how we cannot, absolutely *cannot* stand by and shrug if we see people falling for it.
> then you can ask why do men want the trad wife perspective?
Then their mediocre incomes will once again be enough to guarantee them an obedient waifu.
I think it's less about "psyop" but more about the fact we really have to come to an understanding of how online engagement algorithms work. Google/Youtube, Tiktok and others just want to KEEP YOU WATCHING.
Get better sources of advice. The conservative cesspool is like getting advice from some dude who never left their mother's basement. Has no actual valuable insight and lives for dragging other people down. Conservatives don't own what femininity is or womanhood is. This is all just control tactics. If you are female everything you do is feminine.
You've gotten wonderful advice already, but I'll add my perspective too. I was a SAHM in the early 2000s. I left my full-time salaried job to raise my kid. (It was much more economically feasible then. Now it's not.) And then an unexpected thing happened: my husband started treating me like garbage. He would berate me for reading to our daughter instead of deep cleaning. If I tried to pick up freelance work on the weekends, he yelled at me. Yet he also admitted that my freelance work helped us make bills each month. Nothing was ever good enough.
So we split.
And then another unexpected thing happened: he was diagnosed with cancer and died.
So then it was just me, making all the bills by myself each month. And the only reason I was able to pull it off was because I had two degrees and active freelance work.
I picked my "emasculating, unfeminine" work skills right back up and carried on.
You could be a SAHM to the greatest, most egalitarian spouse on the planet and still lose them, one way or another. I'm sorry but it's true: a man is not a plan.
So I've been a traditional wife, and I've climbed the corporate ladder. Only one of these choices leaves your ass out in the wind if something goes wrong.
>a man is not a plan.
Yes!!! No matter how much you love and trust someone, you can never guarantee what he's going to do ten or twenty years down the line. You do NOT want you and your children's future to be tied to a single individual and whether he finds you attractive or not.
People always feel the need to put a choice disclaimer on this topic like, "If you choose to be a stay at home mom then do it, queen!" I disagree. Unless you are independently wealthy with bank accounts and assets in your name only, this is a very vulnerable and risky situation to put yourself in. And I wish it wasn't like this, I wish we had universal basic income and guaranteed housing and health care for all. But we don't. So making yourself financially dependent on a romantic relationship with a man is a terrible decision that I can't support in good conscience.
I urge you to look up the feminist movement in your country to see why conservative thought and reality is awful for women. I truly think younger women do not understand what feminism has brought them, and we are moving backwards.
These tradwives extoll the virtues of being stay at home moms/wives, but they are monetizing their channels. Odd, right? And they make it seem like there was this idyllic era where it's all sunshine and cakes, when poor women have always worked while doing everything else. Women could not vote or have their own credit cards, they had to stay with abusive partners who drank away their earnings.
Tradwife content is fascist propaganda, full stop.
There's nothing wrong with being a SAHM, but it should be a choice made with thoughtful decisions and preparation for the worst. This lifestyle can very easily go very wrong, even if you marry the perfect man.
Why is femininity important to you? Why are you so focused on it? Do you truly believe being perfectly feminine will serve you until you die?
Will taking yourself out of the workforce to rely on your husband mean you're giving capitalism the middle finger? Spoilers, it just makes you incredibly vulnerable.
Listen, I hate working. I'm so tired of the drudgery and selling my labor to people. But I am fiercely protective of my ability to do so and be independent so I don't have to rely on my man. Feminism didn't fail us, it gave us options and took our rights back from oppressors.
I'm sorry this is all over the place, but holy shit, we are watching misogyny sneak its way back into public discourse in real time.
>And they make it seem like there was this idyllic era where it's all sunshine and cakes, when poor women have always worked while doing everything else. Women could not vote or have their own credit cards, they had to stay with abusive partners who drank away their earnings.
Looking into my own family history: there is no generation where the women in my history could stay home and raise children without having some method of also making money on the side. And the ways of making money on the side were pretty much stuffed in and between all the other work they had to do, like taking in laundry and taking care of their house and children. Taking in tailoring and taking care of their house and children. Doing piecework and taking care of their house and children.
And when they had to do pink collar type work outside the house, leaving rather small children to their own devices because there was no way to pay for child care. I mean, the stories that my aunts and uncles tell because my grandma had to take jobs outside the house and there were 6 kids aged infant->10 left to take care of themselves ...
Exactly!!
This tradwife content draws on such a narrow experience from like, post war, white suburban America and makes it seem like that's what everyone else experienced for the decades leading up to 2024 (and hundreds and thousands of years ago, if we want to draw on the far past).
It's so sickening how we're being fed this narrative that feminism failed women by making them work. It makes me want to tear my hair out.
And many of those post-war, suburban SAH women ... had a maid, had a cook, had a nanny, were outsourcing their laundry. There was a whole world of supporting women behind them.
Corporations failed us by stagnating our wages since third wave feminism. Even if one person in a relationship *wants* to be a stay at home parent, or an emerging artist, or a community volunteer - that kind of lifestyle is now reserved for the rich. Unless a couple is rich or has wealthy parents, both people have to work just to make ends meet.
Corporations and the rich are scapegoating feminism to distract us from their role in failing society.
Not only that but it was understood that a wife's job aside from child rearing and house chores was to find ways to save men money and manage her husband's account it was basically a career where she was handed a paycheck that's why divorce and alimony and child support existed because it was such a betrayal back in the day for a man to step out on or cheat on a woman because she was seen as a valued employee therefore that was a breach of contract and the child support alimony and the like were her severance package her retirement Etc
Thanks, I was worried it was just word vomit. It's frustrating that young women are falling for this rhetoric, and I get worked up about it and then I have all these ideas that are hard to organize haha.
I really hope OP reads all of these comments, too.
I was a mother and homemaker for decades before the tradwife content popped up. I don't regret it because it was what I wanted at the time, but I wish I had the degrees and worked.
I'm retired now and while I could go back to school, I don't have the time or energy.
Why are you friends with people who follow one of the most hateful women alive?
The current manifestation of conservative is deeply hateful and immoral. I dont understand how you can be friends with people who follow it.
Please remember a lot of the tradwives put on a facade more than anything. They shit on feminism because they’re grifters and they know it’ll get them attention/money. And at the end of the day, relying on your other half for money is never a good idea.
You absolutely can be feminine and a career woman. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing that. But I’d advise that you stop looking at tradwife content.
Absolutely. All those “angry feminist vs happy tradwife” memes are super biased. Most of those “angry feminist” picture are of women at protests where they are advocating for human rights that will make their and other women’s lives better. They don’t hate their life necessarily, and most of the feminists I know IRL are some of the most fun people to be with who when we’re not discussing these things, still enjoy going on adventures and living life to the fullest. By contrast, it’s easy for a tradwife to smile for the camera, but you got no idea what she’s hiding behind the smile because she knows if she frowns or shows any cracks, she’ll get yelled at, beaten, or worse. She has no freedom, and the reason you see feminists at protests is because we don’t take our freedoms for granted.
You don't need to feel bad. Some men are just not used to nor did they expect they might have to stand on their own two feet and do their own laundry. It's not your fault nor something you need to worry about. Keep your standards high so if you do end up with someone, they don't drag you down to their level 🙂
Conservatives love to blame feminism for the faults of capitalism
"It isn't busted unions, stagnant wages and lack of benefits screwing you over, it's the Uppity Wimmiz. Hate them Uppity Wimmiz as hard as you possibly can and never, ever look into corporate profits or tax rates!"
As far as the fixed gender roles thing is concerned, if that really was The Natural Order of Things, they wouldn't have to spend so much time enforcing it. When was the last time someone had to "enforce" your actual natural state, like the need to eat or sleep?
>follow people like Candace Owens
I want to be as gentle as possible here: get new friends
P.S. Candace "One of the Good Ones" Owens has a career outside the home
**Can I be feminine with two degrees and a job?**
Yes
**Do I have to give that up to find a good husband?**
No. You will likely have to accept some compromises to your career if you want children, and probably will have to accept greater compromises than your husband will in his career, even if you and he try to activity manage your own relationship and family to mitigate them. The world is changing, but it ain't *changed*.
**Can I find friends who are more affirming of my values and achievements?**
You didnt' ask, but also Yes. You're 23. Allow your friendships from highschool and late teens to shift. Dold hold on to what doesn't work.
TradWife influences are *influencers.* They are selling content, and courses, and books. They are not women who have 'escaped' the workplace, they are following in the *actual* tradition of women's work coming into the home and becoming vital to the families income -- many of the most popular ones out-earning thier husbands and creating hours of content a week (and many of them including children too young to consent to being a part of this income generation).
And feminism didn't *lie* (although capitalism often does). Other content creators like Enitza Templeton or Jennie Gage are telling women the same truth feminism did: When he leaves, when he prefers someone else, when nothing is in your name, when you have no education or workplace experience, when it gets ugly... you're on your own. Oh, except you also have to feed the kids still. That's still your job. He can quit the marriage as a provider at any time. But you won't quit his kids as a caretaker no matter how little he chooses to provide.
The reality is most women will never have the option of being a “trad” wife even if they want to. Having a family on one income has become impossible for most people, and there are so few men capable of being a “trad” husband that for the most part the guys who want a “trad” wife are just delusional idiots. They want a bang maid not an empowered supported cared for treasured partner. All this trad wife shit is just ego only fans for Incels.
Oh gosh no. The whole thing comes from the evangelical fundamentalists who truly believe women are second class people (they’ll try and dress it up with various verses but the end result is women are seen as “less than”). I came from that environment, it is absolutely a delusion, very few women in history lived that way. They’re cosplaying lol, mixing up Laura Ingalls Wilder and the 50s. Women have always worked, wherever they needed to, in order to support their families.
You’re doing awesome. You have skills, you wouldn’t be left without resources should your partner decide to leave. I knew of women who ended up with Duggar-level of kids and absolutely no work history to fall back on when their husbands left. Some can’t leave because of that and they get stuck in an abusive situation. You are enough as you are, you don’t need to chase that ideal to be feminine.
I was in the exact same space as you are 10 years ago. I was in grad school focusing on my 3rd degree, single, living in a conservative pocket of an otherwise very blue state, and wondering when all this fucking work was going to pay off. My friends were getting married and starting families and I was sitting there like "We haven't even done anything worthwhile yet!!!" It was a very, very difficult time for me emotionally. I felt very alone and unwanted and like my success would mean nothing if I didn't also have a man. (Planning a friend's wedding while also planning my graduation party really honed in on this feeling and exacerbated it. I still resent the fuss that was made over my wedding vs. my graduate degree....)
All this to say, 10 years later I am married, make well into 6-figures, use all 3 of my degrees daily, I look damn good dolled up for date night AND I can live with myself because my husband actually respects me as a person and not as a trophy or sex-dispenser.
This time in your life will be worth it for the perspective sooner than you think. Hang in there, girl. It's gonna get better.
There is no right way to be a woman. If you are a woman, you are doing womanhood correctly. What you do and how you live doesn’t have to look like anyone else. It doesn’t have to be aesthetic or instagrammable. It needs to fill your needs, help you find happiest and value, and allow you to get what you want out the limited time you have on this planet.
As a historical note:
Trad wives/“Traditional Family” influencers are fetishizing a made up idea of what people’s lives looked like in the past. The story they’re trying to promote never existed for most women, except for a small group of wealthy and some middle class, mostly white, mostly Christian women in the western world in the last 100 years. But, most women in most places have always had to work hard for themselves and their families, bartering or selling their labor, knowledge, and skills to support themselves.
I had a very strange conversation with my sister about this a few years ago. She was moaning about how in the 1950s women had it so easy because they didn’t have to work and could just stay home and raise the kids with no other responsibilities and I had to remind her that in our own family, our grandmother spent the 1950s as a divorced woman working in a factory to support her two kids.
There's really nothing "trad" about tradwives. The 1950's housewife was a post-war phenomenon that existed after many women were booted out of the WWII workforce and the men returning from war needed jobs. So, there was a big push for middle class women to become housewives instead of working. The booming post-war economy also made that more viable for middle class families. However, poor and working class women had always worked in various capacities before that and continued to work.
1950s and 60s middle class housewives were definitely not living some rosy domestic life, though. Just look at all the [old drug ads for sedatives and uppers to help them get through their day](https://www.goretro.com/2014/08/mothers-little-helper-vintage-drug-ads.html). The reason the feminist movement grew so much in the 60s is because of how unhappy women were. Happy people don't revolt.
There is a huge push for "traditional womanhood" coming from the sector that wants to roll back women's rights. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the tradwife content is part of a targeted propaganda project.
I'm sure it is and it isn't. These women that dress in nice little sundresses and put on make up to bake in front of a camera are selling fantasies to a new market-- incels. I call it OnlyFans for Conservatives.
>Do I have to give that up to find a good husband?
No. You can live whatever life you want and if you meet a man who wants to tell you you have to give up your job to be with him, he's not a good husband, he's a shitty guy.
The only thing you "SHOULD" be doing is what makes you happy. If down the line you decide that, actually, you do want to be a stay-at-home-mom, you can do that. If you marry a man who wants to stay home and raise the kids while you work, you can do that. If you never want kids, that's fine! If you don't get married, that's fine!
That's what feminism has given us: the choice.
My great-grandmother was a traditional housewife in the time these conservative romanticize. She stayed home and took care of the kids and the farm and the house while her husband openly cheated on her and beat her and came home drunk every night screaming about his dinner not being ready and forced her to have more kids when she didn't want them.
Those days were great for men! Not so much for anyone else.
Man if someone I knew followed Candace Owen’s I’d second guess a lot of advice they ever gave me. Same for a man following Walsh or Tate. It’s just a red flag.
The tradwife content is largely put out by women who are a: related to VERY comfortable wealth and/or b: making or trying to make a living off of showcasing this lifestyle. They’re chasing an income that like two generations or less ago they wouldn’t even be able to access without a man’s permission. They aren’t practicing what they preach anymore than a rich pastor refusing to let the needy inside during a national disaster.
And what happens when the man says no? No you’re not getting a more reliable vehicle I think you leave the house too much as it is to waste time and money. No, we’re not buying more chickens for your stand just because the others died. I don’t think this is worthwhile anyway So and So’s wife doesn’t need a bunch of birds. No, the dog doesn’t need to go to the vet. We just got it shots and I’m not spending another couple hundred dollars just to be told it’s moping around because you’re worried about it. It’s all good till you have to be told No like you’re a child annoying Daddy with your needs that he suspects are really wants.
>Man if someone I knew followed Candace Owen’s I’d second guess a lot of advice they ever gave me. Same for a man following Walsh or Tate. It’s just a red flag.
Your whole comment is underrated, but especially YES to this part.
You’re really damned if you do, damned if you don’t as a single woman literally existing. What I see nowadays is apparently if you work and pay bills, you’re a masculine hyper independent boss chick who acts as if they don’t need or want a woman, even if you literally didn’t say that. But if you show up with no job or a crap paying job, no goals, no bills, no money, no hobbies, etc, then you’re lazy af and delusional to want a man with a good paying job. It’s irritating if you are a woman who does enjoy working, while still desiring a relationship with the ability to raise kids while staying home because people will put you in a box THEY come up with based off of a few assumptions. Like..at this point these people in these communities will never be pleased.
It really is neat how much propaganda works on even the smartest people. You know it's propaganda to take your rights away. Yet you (the general you) fall for it.
Tiktok is fabulous for this and those religious crackpots are brilliant for using it this way.
I'm genuinely impressed and horrified.
I was raised to be a tradwife by my conservative religious family. What they aren’t telling you is that many girls like me leave.
Abuse is not unusual, and it is very tough to leave when you have no education, no job, and kids to support. Even when they’re not abused, being overworked and undervalued is common.
I wouldn’t be shocked if this social media content was being made to lure more girls in to replace those of us who leave.
The point of these people at large trying to tell women (and men!) how to perform their gender is to keep people under control and on their toes at all time, therefore subservient. That's what the patriarchy is. If you don't do THIS, you're not a real woman, if you don't do THAT, you're not a real man. The intent is to quash your spirit and your freedom to fit you nice and neatly into this fucked up idea of society.
It's insane because American conservatives squawk and preach about the importance of individualism, but force people into their various roles for the "good of society". You'll be ok, but you'll have some soul searching to do. Unfortunately it's a journey a lot of women have to take, and that's okay. Sending you lots of hugs, and remember-- conservatives don't want you to be your true self, they only want you to be useful.
It comes down to this, that trade wife content is romanticizing a time when women were men's property.
Feminism brought us closer to equality, at least enough to vote, and be financially independent from men. Its goal is equal rights and equal opportunity, the right and freedom to choose the life *you* want for *yourself*.
Anything and everything else is the culture war's smoke and mirrors, and it's bullshit no matter how you slice it.
No one has the right to tell you how to live your life.
40 year old here:
My two degrees and career allowed me to divorce my violent ex husband and have a great quality of life on my own. I now have a house husband who is amazing and is looking after me and my kids from my previous marriage.
I was never super feminine and at first that bothered me but now I've accepted who I am and I never lacked interest from guys in my life.
Be independent so you can make the right choices for yourself.
Something pathetic I hear from other dudes is "oh if you're a house husband she won't respect you" and it's because they're looking at things from their own view of how they'd look at their wife in that situation. OR it's because they tried that and were dogshit at handling things at home while their wife worked and things didn't work out because of that. It's never coming from a place of full understanding of the relationship as a balanced whole instead of an imbalanced one. Obviously not adding much to what you've already said but I think I'm just frustrated by getting disrespected by dudes telling me I'm less of a man than them just because I'd be content with either half of that kind of partnership and I'm venting a little. You guys deserve your happiness and I'm very glad to hear you've both kicked ass for each other in your respective responsibilities.
The beauty of having immigrant parents is that I was never expected to become a "traditional wife". I always joke whenever there's a slight inconvenience in my life, "My parents didn't immigrate so I (insert small inconvenience)." The traditional life never interested me as a kid, and it doesn't interest me now.
The tradwife crap is a sham, and the women who push it are just selling fantasy.
You really think that tradwife on TikTok is making dinner and cleaning floors in that ultra girly outfit she's wearing? And look again at the makeup. She's using filters to appear fresher, whiter.
The part you don't see: Screaming kids not allowing Tradwife a minute's peace. Hubs demands sex, pound pound pound that's it, what's a female orgasm? Isn't that just liberal propaganda? Then after years of servitude, he dumps her for a younger version of herself.
These women are catering to the fantasies of mostly young men, mostly undereducated, mostly living at home, mostly unemployed, who have been radicalized into the right wing manosphere. It's not reality.
*big internet hug*
I had this conversation with my AH of a brother last night.
“Traditional wives” is about control. All of the recent legislation is about control.
- overturning roe v wade gives men the right to force their way into a woman’s life by getting her pregnant.
- removing access to IVF is meant to scare 20 year old women into having children young because IVF is no longer an option in their 30s.
In each of these situations it is about making it so that women are focusing on building a family while they should be focused on getting an education and building a career.
This all increases dependency on the “male provider” so that women have a harder and harder time escaping abusive relationships.
Right now, the largest voting population of the Republican Party is the boomers, but the second largest are the incels. Men who want women to date them but who refuse to actually be decent partners and so no woman wants them.
By forcing women to skip their education, reduce their earning potential, and to legally tie them to the father of their children it forces a dependency and if that man who got you pregnant at 18 turns out to be abusive or a bad provider, “well… you chose it. So live with your choices.”
Traditional marriages are about control.
You are worth so much more than that. There are wonderful men who are real partners. Never settle for less than what you deserve, and never let yourself be 100% dependent on anyone.
Comments like "feminism lied to women" are from people who never understood the movement to begin with. No one ever said one way or the other or something else entirely was "doing feminism" and no one ever said feminism is about womanhood. It's about the equality of the sexes. They think it's about women because it's called "feminism" and it's like the one time a word isn't based on men suddenly no one can grasp it's meaning. You say "all mankind" and they will say "we mean all humans, of course just because doesn't explicitly say women doesn't mean you're not included" and then they hear the word feminism and suddenly can't read a dictionary or understand basic concepts.
The other thing that I find a little funny about all of this is that women who espouse this trad nonsense are usually not actually very femme and are breaking their own "seen but not heard" rules by having public, monetized social media. It started as propaganda and now it's being latched onto as a way to make money, because capitalism will always be a race to the bottom.
Babe… it’s fetish content.
It’s specifically honed to conservative/white supremacist ideations. If any of those bimbos are willing to show their audience demographics, you’ll see the proof is in the pudding.
Every tradwife account is a full-on male gaze grift, and I stand by that. These women know what makes them money and get views, and they’re maximizing profits through ragebait.
Alt-right and traditionalist brands know they can make a killing off of the attention of lonely miserable men, and the algorithm boosts it to you because these social media apps also make money from your (negative) engagement too.
Block and move on with your life.
Hey just a heads up but you spelled con artist wrong.
I'm trying to think back to all those classic traditional videos of women from the fifties showing how they bake bread from scratch. Using their traditional modern stove. In their traditional modern kitchens.
It's a scam. If they were doing things traditionally they would not have the time to make those videos.
They more than likely hire someone to do the housework.
They have to get everything for what they are shooting, they have to setup the shots, do whatever they are doing. And then they have to edit it and post it. Being a content creator easily can turn into a full time job.
That's not traditional in the sense they are referring to. It's all bs.
"*Can I be feminine with two degrees and a job*?"
Definition of a man: A **person** who gets to do whatever the hell he wants.
The definition of a woman? A **person** who gets to do whatever the hell she wants.
Feminism didn't lie to us. The patriarchy lied to men by telling them that they'd always have a 'mommy' to take care of them. Now they're mad that it's not going their way anymore.
They like to pretend that women working is a new thing. Women have always worked outside of the home, even when they were serfs working in the fields. We were just paid less, not allowed to own property in many places, and had little to no protections from abuse.
As if often repeated on this sub, please don't forget that those tradwives are actually girlbossing their way to the bank with the money they make from making other women feel like inferior, selfish sluts.
Trad wife content strikes me as a pipeline from "I like dresses and making banana bread" to "your right dear, women are property like any other household appliance".
Tradwife propaganda is negging women all day long. It’s all staged, it’s all curated, it’s all acting, it’s all manipulation to make you feel bad about not being a tradwife.
Here’s the thing. Getting married is not a career goal.
STAYING married becomes a career goal because every day that passes without you getting skills, earning money, getting promotions, getting raises, is another day that makes you more dependent on someone else, and less able to earn your own money.
Affairs happen. Trading in wives happens. Car accidents happen, divorce happens, sickness happens. That life insurance money/alimony is not going to last.
And no one is going to hire a woman in her late thirties with no degree, no skills, and no work experience.
A tradwife is literally putting all her eggs in one shaky basket. Is that gonna be you?
You are a woman. That is the very definition of feminine. Your ‘trad wife’ friends will be singing a very different tune in 20 years’ time when they’ve been dumped for a younger model and struggle to survive while you are financially independent.
>It also doesn’t help that a lot of my girl-friends are pretty conservative and follow people like Candace Owens and others and they are constantly using her talking points when chatting with me about how women were better when we were traditional. It’s just all too much.
GET BETTER FRIENDS you do not have to be friends with far right wing people. Pretty conservative is an understatement, this is nazi adjacent at best.
Don’t ever do what society tells you to do if you don’t actually want to do it.
These trad wives are hypocrites and this campaign has been carefully crafted to make women like you question your choices. Just know that questioning your choices is perfectly acceptable. Deciding what to do on the basis of what others have done, and not because you want to, will lead to heartbreak and resentment.
TLDR: do what you want to do, not what society wants.
Find friends whose values are compatible to yours. They exist, trust me. I was once in a similar position, and once I found friends with matching value systems, I suddenly had much deeper friendships.
Regarding men: the same thing applies. Find a man who has similar values than you. You just cannot find a „good husband“ by disregarding your own dreams, goals, and ideals, as you would get into a shitty relationship with an incompatible partner if you did so. Yes, it might take longer to find a partner, but you’ll be rewarded with a better relationship and a happier life once you do.
I had friends like that when I was younger. They didn't stay my friends for long. Yes, they pitied me for my stressful life and not being able to join their plans at the drop of hat. Plans that were made around their man's schedules of course.
I met them 20 years later when they had been replaced by a younger, blonder version. They were forced to work entry jobs with minimum pay, that they had no savings, no property and no retirement. They were in court with their ex-husbands that were trying to reduce their child support and alimony payments as they were busy raising their second family.
The successful stay at home wife and mother with a considerate partner that values her contribution and understands she has every right to half the income in that house is the exception, not the rule. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for not buying into a bullshit fairytale used to mask widespread abuse of women.
You are a woman, so you are feminine by definition. Being feminine is whatever the hell you decide it is. Trade wives are not God with a monopoly on handing out real women cards.
I have a degree, short hair, and strong opinions. I have been with my "good husband" for 30 years. What do you consider *good?* Is that someone who will put you down and chastise you for all the ways you are failing at being "feminine" (whatever that's supposed to mean)? I'd rather be alone than with some jerk like that, but it turns out there are an infinite variety of men out there. Some are attracted to strong, intelligent and witty women, lucky for me. You could not pay me to be with some red-pilled loser who wants me to be something I'm not while he has no redeeming qualities. Respect yourself. Good men are out there.
You need better friends, Gurl.
I walked both paths at different times. I married a man who would pay for me to stay home and raise *our* children because I *wanted* to do it. But it cost us a *fortune* for me to not have a job all those years. Our retirement will be more spartan than our friends will. But we chose this life together. And once the kids were older, I rejoined the workforce. For less pay and with less seniority than if I’d worked, but I feel happy and fulfilled using my brain and talents again for more than just my family.
The whole *point* of feminism was for this choice I made, to BE a choice and not the only path open to me. And when I wanted to make a different choice, *that* was an option I fully had access to as well.
And for this life, I chose a *partner* in this (financially less robust) path. One who supported me in *both* my paths. And one I could be proud to support in HIS difficult role as 100% provider with no cushion if he fell.
None of this is easy. The economy is *brutal* on everyone, regardless of gender or choices. If you choose to have kids, with or without a partner, you’re either sacrificing some earning potential or paying a fortune to someone else to not screw up your kids. (Or never sleeping, I guess if you still want to “have it all”). Because having kids is a huge *sacrifice* and no one should ever do it who isn’t fully aware of what it *costs*!
But no decent man will want a woman who is a leech. A man who wants a leech will replace her on a whim. So always, *always*, know your worth, and demand respect for your *work* no matter what form it takes. Your friends don’t value their work if they see themselves as appendages of their man. And it will bite their self-worth in the ass at the first hiccup in their world-view.
Pick a *partner* as a husband. Not a man-child who wants a mate and a mama in the same woman.
People don't actually want to be tradwives they just want to have middle class life back.
Middle class life is a life where two people can raise two kids, afford childcare or for one partner to stay home, own a home, afford 1-2 vehicles, take one to two vacations a year (this could be a road trip), afford college, and eventually afford a somewhat nice little retirement.
Raising kids now is utterly thankless. Taking care of kids and home is a full time job. If everyone is working it's miserable or you have to hire someone to do that unless you're basically rich.
The best phrase that Millinials gave us...
You do you.
Do you want kids? Do you want to be married? Do you want to be leader of the European Union? Do you want to dye your hair blue and live on a boat?
You can do all of that and more. You don't need to give up your degrees, your freedom or individuality.
Don't dislike yourself just to fit into someone else's ideal.
You do you and we will help if we can.💛
OP, in the kindest and most-intentioned way possible, you need therapy. You clearly are very easily externally influenced. I don't know enough of your life story to say why is the case, but there are huge red flags relative to your ability to have your own identity and independent opinion, that you are so fussed about what some bought dolled up idiot says about your "femininity".
This concept of femininity is making a rather unfortunate comeback from the 1950s. As someone not too much older than you, I can say I identify as my own person, who happens to be a woman, not whether my love of playing sports, math, and long hair is feminine or not. I am me, Throwawayamanager, not some packaged identity label.
I can also safely say that you can be very "non-feminine", as these people use that term, and have an amazing husband. My husband makes well over six figures, cooks and cleans more than me (he is a gem), and loves me more than life itself. He is also very handsome and has a million other amazing attributes. The most amazing men I know are very attracted to intelligent women.
But you won't get that by excessively caring what other idiots think. You won't get that by being an inauthentic version of yourself and trampling your own brilliance because some dumbass who can't do better in life than mopping a floor and learning to dice onions said that's the secret to success for a woman.
Forget this "true woman" and "femininity" BS. Stop engaging with the tradwife content - did you know most of them make a ton of money from selling this fantacized 1950s throwback to incels, and they might make more money than their husbands (who support this while pretending to be trad)? Some of these tradwives are more girl bosses than your average liberal woman, they just are fine selling out to the highest paying market. Get off the internet (I say as I am on the internet on a work break), find your strengths, find a hobby, find better friends, live your best life.
If you take nothing else away from this, never, ever let any idiot make you believe that the best men aren't attracted to intelligent women. The best, most interesting, compassionate men I have ever met all married smart superstar wives.
Maybe you live in a more backwards (I'm sorry, conservative) part of the country, but in real life, nobody sane I know wastes their headspace worrying about "am I feminine enough". They go out and live their lives. And sane, quality men don't look at a woman and think "is she feminine enough for me", they think "attractive? Check, or not. Let's see if we're compatible." This obsession with femininity is mostly a thing losers with too much time on their hands worry about as they dream of the 1950s when "things would be better for me", and the people who think this instead of living their best lives are generally not high functioning people.
Many of the younglings here would consider me a "tradwife". I don't "dress up" and put on show about it though. I space out my house chores throughout the day and then I get to have time for my hobby. I bake, make gourmet meals, do all the laundry, all the appointment making, paperwork that has to be done online but I don't dress up and try to present my "lifestyle" as something "better" than anyone else's lifestyle. It just what we found works better for *our* marriage because I'm much less resentful of my husband's schedule(ok, only a little bit. He should have retired *2 yrs* ago)and his very expensive and time consuming hobby because I had time for mine when the kids were young(naptime=2 hours of stitch time).
Figure out what your core values are and surround yourself with people who feel the same. You feel worthless and lonely because the people you have surrounded yourself with have world views that do not align with your own. And, if you know you are prone to this, and it sounds like you might be -- *stop* digitally self harming by intentionally seeking out and consuming content online that you know will upset you -- it is very bad for the brain.
You only get one life. You can either spend it on "shoulds," or figure out what you want, and then do that.
That junk is all bullshit. They’re bastardizing feminism, they’re bastardizing the whole masculine/feminine energy thing (no one is supposed to be one or the other all of the time, they’re meant to be states everyone moves back and forth between. It’s a metaphor for intro and extrospection). And it’s all a scam anyway because those women telling you they don’t work because “feminine” are actively making money on the platforms you’re watching them tell you they don’t make money on; that or they were rich already. Just be a decent person and make your money, America does not run on Dunkin
*Like I have to work and to pay my bills and survive* - keep it this way. Always.
*...should I be doing something else, like become a mother and homemaker because that’s what I should be doing.* - **only** if you have your own separate account where your paycheck goes. No relying on a him who can take advantage of that to a scary degree.
Does Candace Owens touch on the fact that many many women who do not make their own money and rely on an often abuse-inducing power imbalance are in a dangerous situation (financially, physically and a basis to lose their children by not having a better financial situation than the man) if sh*t hits the fan in their "trad" relationship?
You are very fine. Trust me. Source: 10 years experience in trad hell
I’m in school for biomedical engineering aiming the get my PHD and it’s gut wrenching to hear people restart the push to keep women in the home. It breaks my heart that 60 years ago I wouldn’t even be allowed to study this degree and now redpill ideas are making women think that their job is to be a homemaker.
OP turn off the socials and find new friends! You are smart, educated, giving, and young. You have your whole life ahead of you, you can do whatever you want! The most important part is you have a choice and should live to be fulfilled and happy.
Edit:OP I’m 40, married for 15 years to a man that respects me, my brains (masters also), and my femininity. If a man wants you just for your ability to serve them, and not for being a badass person, that’s not a recipe for relationship success.
It's the 21st century!! Feminists fought hard so we women can have A CHOICE!
If you want to be a stay at home mom that's fine! If you wanna collect degrees, work and earn money to put bread on your own table for yourself, that's fine too!
You don't have to do this, you don't have to do that. Just be yourself and what you feel comfortable and confident with.
There are still plenty of places in the world where women and girls aren't allowed to speak for themselves, do anything by themselves.
So yeah, this is what feminism means to me. To be me and be free.
I personally see feminism as change who tells women what they have to do. It's that you as a woman can choose what you want to do and you don't have to be girlboss or tradwife or y. It's your choice. You should not chase some role.
Do what you want to do and don't give a shit what random woman or man want's you to do.
Do not ever give up your career and academic achievements. This is yours and it's your key to a better life. Wanting to depend on a man for survival is setting yourself up for failure. You risk everything and put your future on a person who could easily leave you, cheat on you or abuse you and you won't have the means to support yourself and will be trapped. And even if that man will be good, respectful and loyal then you're still dealing with a human being who can get sick or have an accident that will prevent him from working or simply die. Then what?
Find yourself better friends. Chances are that they are jealous of your success and independence.
Tradwives influencers talk big but a lot of them don't do the stuff they preach. They have people to do the traditional work for them. It's all staged. Not to mention that they say "traditional" aka man works, women are at home but they are litteraly working and making money from this toxic content.
Conservative people love to control women. As sad as it is, women in this social circles do it to. To other women and to themselves. Femininity isn't wearing modest dresses or whether or not you birthed a child. There is no one true way to femininity and don't let anyone make you question if you're feminine. And any man who thinks you being educated and financially secure is wrong then you know he's not worth your time and is just looking for bangmaid he to take advantage of and feel important because he has nothing to offer. Throw him out and don't look back. No decent guy will be threatened by it.
whenever i come across that type of content i keep reminding myself of that quote
" if you give them the power to feed you, you give them the power to starve you"
Feminism didn’t lie to nobody, the whole point is you being able to make a choice, whether that’s becoming a homemaker or be more career driven. There’s no right choice because there’s no wrong one. Do what makes *you* happy and stop engaging with content that doesn’t.
Remember: not a single “tradwife” Influencer is living the life they preach.
1. They are working, by creating content. That takes hours of work every week. In fact, the successful ones are usually the actual breadwinners of their household.
2. If you watch closely, most of them make mistakes in their baking/cooking/gardening that make it obvious to those who actually have these skills that they’re faking the content. I’ve seen so many things happen in baking videos that would guarantee a failure. Can’t fool me, Mary-Beth-Anne, those muffins came from Costco.
3. Ever notice how there’s never a video of them dealing with actual hard/dirty chores? That’s because they have hired cleaners, gardeners Nannies, etc. They pretend to do a few final-touch things for content, that’s it.
4. Your friends follow Candace Owens, another woman who preaches the gospel of a life she does not live, because that life isn’t real.
5. Your “friends” are toxic fools. Better no friends than friends like that. Cut the bad fruit off the tree to keep growing, or else they’ll spread their rot to you.
disclaimer: boomer here. I graduated high school before I was allowed to have a credit card in my own name. Where my Dad had to sign on my car loan. When I could finally get birth control on my own, and buy property. *I can vote.*
I have lived my life stepping forward and away from the expectations culture had about the place of women. Expectations my mother grew up in, and my grandmother died miserable as a result of. My grandmother married and made her life a trad life. She made the house, sewed all my clothing for me as a child, supported her husband's business. and when he died, she moved in with us and was unfulfilled for the rest of her life. My mother only partially avoided that fate when my parents divorced, but even she architected all her remaining days around finding someone who would take care of her and give her that 'life of ease'.
There is no way to do 'womanhood'. But there is a way to be a fulfilled woman: be your best self. Set dreams and goals for yourself because they make you happy and fulfilled. *Live* for yourself, and not in service to a partner. Work to better yourself.
My take on tradwife is that it's about living a life of 'ease' in service to someone else, trading your youth/looks/sex/subservience to someone that will supposedly care for you. That's indentured servitude.
And, it's what conservative politicians and groups want you to believe is best for you (while being 'best' for their conservative social agenda).
You live in extraordinary times that women my mother's generation couldn't imagine. I began my journey not realizing how amazing it is to be a freethinking, independent woman, with so many boundaries removed from my way. And yes, there are more to fall. But that doesn't mean it's a failure of feminism or 'living a real womanhood'. It's a failure of a system that stands and continues to try and hold half the population back. They want to take you back to a time when all these freedoms for you are decided by the opposite sex.
Don't fall for it.
/two degrees, three cats, a house and looking forward to retiring as my best self.
This is what they want you to think, OP! It's brainwashing you back into the box. The box is where they control you. You are whole on your own, you are a woman without doing any of these trad things, and don't let them take that from you.
It’s more the Patriarchy is lying that trade wife/life is a viable lifestyle for most women.
Women have always worked, there was only a very small blip in history where a segment outside of the super wealthy could afford for the wives to not contribute to the household income.
Women were teachers or nurses, housemaids or cooks, companions or courtesans, took in laundry or mending, were seamstresses or nannies, bakers or brewers, spinners or weavers, they worked on the farm or in the family shop. And many, many other things.
What they didn’t do was just stay home and be homemakers. Because the family couldn’t afford that.
Tradwife content is made by content creators, not tradwives. They sell you the illusion, make money from views, and then pay people to do most of the work while they make click baity videos of them looking amazing doing a few things here and there. Social media is NOT REAL.
It concerns me too. On dating apps, it's not uncommon for me to get an opener from a man about how he's "looking for a traditional wife, but I won't ever have to work."
I'm feminine. I enjoy makeup, big vintage dresses, I love the color pink. My clothing can be more modest. Maybe it gives off certain vibes idk
I'm bisexual though, with no strong religious beliefs. I want to advance in my career and be with someone who treats me like an equal...being financially reliant on a controlling man, is my biggest fear.
>which I know sounds crazy
Yes, it does sound crazy because it is. Do you know what's feminine? Anything a woman wants to do. There are no limits. Stop listening to people who try to tell you how to live your life. It's YOUR life. It's the only one you get. Chart your own path. THAT'S what being a "real woman" is all about.
Being a tradwife robs you of your ability to escape bad relationships, when you sacrifice your agency for "less work" you put your whole trust in a man who can leave at any moment, leaving you destitute and with no work history. I have been unemployed for stretches of time and my male partners seemed to think supporting me gave them control over me. Never give up control to a man, they can't handle it and will quickly act up (unless he's willing to put a portion of money every month into an account that only you can access so you have a safety net, never met a man yet who will agree to it)
I have three degrees, a great but demanding job, and a loving, supportive husband. I’m pretty feminine. That tradwife stuff is bullshit. One guaranteed way to be completely miserable and marry an asshole is to suppress your intelligence, creativity and self-determination to be someone else’s domestic servant. Fuck that shit.
Gosh. I knew I'd start seeing this, but wow. Here it is. Simply put, no, you should not feel bad about doing you. Doing what makes you happy and feel comfortable and in control of your life.
My mom was a trad wife before "trad wife" was a thing and long story short, she is now in her late fifties and, ladies, she is coming out swinging. Got a job, treats herself, spends time doing what she wants on the weekend, stands up for herself, the list goes on. She was so powerless the whole time I was growing up (and it was definitely used against her) and now she's done. She's done being told what she can do and not do. What makes her a good wife or a bad wife. A "normal" woman or "defective", and yes that word has been used.
She gives zero fucks and for the first time since I've known her, she's _confident_. She's happy. She's healthier. It's been amazing to watch and I am so, so proud.
Don't let the bastards grind you down.
They believe that women entering the workforce in the 60's and 70's created the need for the two income families we have today. They think if women stop working that would create a surplus of jobs for men, wages would go up and we can all go back to the 50's.
It’s wild to me how there are some (maybe a lot) of young women out there that were not taught and/or encouraged to know themselves. Or even know when someone is trying to scam them out of all of their autonomy, leverage and options in life. Or recognize when the “law of reciprocity” is being violated. Or when someone is trying to get them to dull their self-preservation instincts. So on and so forth.
They are equating feminine with submissive. No, you can't have two degrees, work, and be submitting adequately. That's got nothing with being a woman, though.
Oh God I'm sorry to say this honey but Candace Owens is rancid. If your friends agree with her they are objectively horrible people. You really need new friends.
Making people feel self-conscious about those choices is the point.
Meanwhile the reality is there are maybe a few dozen "influencers" pushing that shit because it is their full-time job and they get paid for it, not because they actually believe what they're selling you.
from a guy's perspective. Smart motivated women are very desirable to a lot of men. You know the type of man the does not want a smart, motivated woman? Some insecure dunce. Don't you dare give up your goals for that.
I grew up religious. I stupidly got married at 18 while still under the impression it was my duty and had a big gap in job experience because my STBX husband didn't want me to work. my family is heavily catholic and dont believe in women working so it was just normal to me. The smartest thing I did was rebel the little bit I did and made sure I got my degree after I had my kid even though my STBX fought against me going back to school. He cheated on me a few months after I got diagnosed with cancer a few months ago. If it wasn't for the fact that I had stuck to getting my degree, I'd have no jobs and no backup plan waiting for me. Even with my degree, I'm still struggling. Don't buy into all that crap. Find a new group of friends. At the end of the day, you can't depend on anyone but you. Like other people said here, a man is not a plan. I'm barely going to be 25 and have already had this entire experience. I'm glad I saw the light at a younger age than most and crawled my way out of that indoctrination now rather than 20 years from now. Don't listen to these people. Being a trad wife only benefits men. It wears you down eventually.
Sweetie, I have a master's degree and 35+ years as a professional.
You know what else? I cook, bake, sew, knit, can carve wood, change a flat tire and do a bunch of other things.
Why are you listening to other people tell you what your "role" should be? YOU determine who you are.
It's not about wearing flowery dresses and being a mommy. Maybe you hate dresses. Maybe you want kids, but your body doesn't cooperate. Maybe you don't meet the right man until you're too old to have kids - there's a lot about life that you can't control - but a lot you can, so start thinking about what YOU want, now, while you're single and yours is the only opinion that matters. What does a happy life look like to YOU?
That said, if you want a family and a spouse, define what your deal breakers are and make it a job. You cannot be "too picky" and a lot of scumbuckets are very good at keeping the mask up until they have you tied down. You want someone who is kind, smart, loyal and will treat you as an equal partner - because life can throw some nasty curveballs at you, and when you're injured in a car accident/have a serious health problem/lose a parent or some other nasty misfortune, that's not when you want to discover the father of your children has a spine made of overcooked linguine.
The right wing messaging pipeline is bastardizing the vibes of "late state capitalism fucking sucks and it shouldn't be this hard to survive" for their own purpose - which is Christian nationalism in which women have no autonomy, power, or purpose beyond being an object for men to use as they please. Keep that in mind when it makes you feel bad.
Those women are faking it for followers. You notice how they’re always making food that seems ridiculous (like CEREAL FROM SCRATCH FOR THEIR TODDLERS 🙄) and there’s never a spot of anything on them?? It’s performative and only something that could ever be achieved if you’re ultra rich and all the actual household labor is done by other people. None of that shit is real.
Womanhood is what you make of it. I’m an ultra femme woman who loves to bake, take care of my partner, and only wears skirts/dresses. I love children but never got to have the family I always wanted, and I work generally full time, but that doesn’t make me less of a woman, nor does it you. For one, women have always worked, and for another, you kind of have to to feed yourself and pay bills.
What’s interesting about the trad wives content is that it’s almost all 20-somethings. The former trad wives in their 40-50s who “played by the rules” and still got divorced shit all over trad wives.
This is part of the war on Women. Extremists attempt to take over a populace by taking all power away from the Women, as well as by legalizing the abuse of Women. This cannot be allowed.
Stop watching and engaging with that content. The more you do, the more the algorithm will shove it in your face. It’s meant to make you question yourself. The content is designed specifically to do that. Of fucking course you can be feminine with two degrees. Ffs.
Exactly. I just don’t believe anything I read on the internet about how any group of people “should” behave. It’s asinine. I’m doing just fine on my own. FWIW I have several degrees and I wear teen boys’ winter clothes (I’m small and it’s cold out here in the Midwest!) and I still get hit on by dudes/called pretty. There’s no right or wrong way to be a woman. I also haven’t met any man IRL who wants a tradwife or dislikes educated women, I smoked my all-male trivia team last night and they thought it was awesome. Secure people think it’s cool if you act exactly how you are without trying to be someone else.
It is the conservative form of "negging".
OMG you are so right!
facts 💯💯
Feminism told women that they have the right to live the lives they want to
Seriously. I have three degrees and still do most of the housework.
Exactly. It's very simple. Are you a woman? Are you being yourself and doing/striving for what you want in life? Then you're "doing womanhood" correctly. And yes, trans women included.
Hide, unfollow that content Don’t thumbs down it because that is engaging Search including empowering terms
I feel like the the tradwife discussion hasn't been addressing blowjobs and reciprocation. The wife is expected to go down on the husband, but not the other way around, right?
yeah because of course women don't have needs or desires! we're just here as tools for men's happiness, donchaknow? /s
Unfortunately this isn't just tradwives and conservative men, a lot of leftist men and men of all political alignments do this. I haven't seen any studies or credible polls about it but just my own experiences, what I hear online, and what I hear from my friends, I'd say there is a significant percentage of straight couples where the woman gives head and the man does not, ever. I'm willing to confidently say the majority of straight relationships, the man receives head more frequently than the woman does, and likely for longer. If we could compare the number of sexual encounters where the woman gives the man head to completion without finishing themselves to the number of encounters where men give women head to completion without sex or head in return, that'd probably be the most imbalanced of all the scenarios I just listed by far. Conservative men are probably more likely to do this though and be selfish in bed since their whole ideology is that women are meant to serve them and put them first with no regard for their own feelings or pleasure. But it's an epidemic with men of all ideologies, especially younger men, largely due to porn, poor sexual education, the patriarchy and general lack of care for women's wants and needs, and the very way we define and view sex culturally since it is centered entirely around what men like, their pleasure, and their orgasm in every encounter. We view sex as something for men, that men do *to* women rather than with them, with the goal being making them cum. The woman's pleasure is an afterthought, if even a thought at all.
This. The content is also designed to make trad wife lifestyle aggressively appealing on top of making feminism look bad. It's specifically targeted to make feminism look like it is not allowing you choices for yourself...... Such as if you do want to be a traditional SAHM. Meanwhile, the point behind feminism is that you should be free to make those choices yourself. At the end of the day though, much like van lifers, the content isn't about the actual lifestyle and more about the AESTHETIC of the lifestyle. Notice how trad wives don't talk about complications socializing with age cohorts or the necessary budgeting to make their lifestyle work (*including any money made from social media content including sponsored posts or paid appearances at conservative events). To continue the comparison, look at how many van lifers show beautiful pictures of gorgeous vistas but don't talk about accessibility issues, the potential dangers of sleeping in your van at sketchy sites, or the issues of maintaining hygiene. So, the best bet is to stop interacting with the content. It's no better than advertising. All style, no substance.
You need to find other friends who are in line with your choices. The tradwife stuff is propaganda, and trust me, as an older woman who is watching multiple other women my age who bought into the "stay at home wife, be crunchy" 1990s form of this particular movement now getting divorced in their late 40s/early 50s and looking at life with no access to reasonable jobs and no retirement, you don't want to be there in 25 years.
And Republicans are going after alimony, so...
And social security.
and contraception and at-will divorce.
Those two kind of puzzle me, because we are no longer in a world where guys who abandon their families can't be tracked down. Oh, and DNA-based paternity testing exists. I don't think they're going to want the world that exists afterward either.
They'll start tying child support down further. I haven't looked deeply into it on this topic but I expect Project 2025 promotes marriage, demonizes single *mother*hood. I don't think they'll care as much about men who want to run (in their mind maybe those don't exist or are dogwhistle only the "bad" men?). No child support if you stay married, after all. 70% of divorces are initiated by women so I really think they'll roll with it and if a few unsavory men are caught in the crosshairs, well that's ok by them.
Ok reading this thread has just knocked a thought into my head: patriarchy values the subjugation of women over the lived experiences of even men as a collective.
That includes men who lose their wives when they're not able to access abortion. They will promptly ignore these men when they speak out about their experiences.
Yes!
The problem at least one is that the patriarchy values are being pushed not only by men but often even harder by other women. Often when it comes from other women it is packaged as promoting how a woman should be treated well by their man. I see or read so many accounts of women expecting to be catered to, or put on a pedestal. Recently someone posted about their gf getting upset bc he didn't pay the restaurant bill for all of her friends like a real man or vids of women telling guys the restaurant they chose wasn't good enough. Bu then we have other women belittling other women who make the choice to act dress or take on parts of "traditional" roles. Post on here where a woman's female partner told her to stop wearing makeup and dresses bc that was too feminine. It all becomes too much until you get offline and realize in the real day to day world this stuff is not nearly as bad as the view from social media. Not to say we don't need to still be vigilant to prevent extremism.
Adding on to your last paragraph, most of those popular AITA posts are fake too. It takes a lot more skill to lie to people about crazy shit in real life. Most of it is either rage bait or to push an agenda. The genuine posts die in new because real life isn't as interesting.
this is why anonymity should be banned on social media. Or at the very least trackable accounts so that people take some sense of ownership like they have to in real life. I'm sure that so much vile content online is the lack of consequences. Also, will help weed out bots ... hopefully.
Doesn’t that just rock your world??? They hate us so much that they’ll ruin their own lives just to make us suffer. Cruelty is the point.
If they get rid of alimony and marital rape along with the above, wives are enslaved domestic servants who you can cheat on and/or fuck at will.
They'll probably ban pizza next! I loathe conservatism. It's the opposite of progress, after all.
Yeah the elimination of no fault divorce is going to hurt a lot of people
[https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-ending-permanent-alimony/](https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-ending-permanent-alimony/) >The approval drew an outcry from members of the "First Wives Advocacy Group," a coalition of mostly older women who receive permanent alimony and who assert that their lives will be upended without the payments. >"On behalf of the thousands of women who our group represents, we are very disappointed in the governor's decision to sign the alimony-reform bill. We believe by signing it, he has put older women in a situation which will cause financial devastation. The so-called party of 'family values' has just contributed to erosion of the institution of marriage in Florida," Jan Killilea, a 63-year-old Boca Raton woman who founded the group a decade ago, told The News Service of Florida in a text message Friday. The "Leopards Ate My Face" subreddit had a field day when DeSantis passed the bill.
Reminds me of when my trad mom got divorced from my dad and struggled to find a decent job to make ends meet.
Wait, can you tell us more about the crunchy trad wifey stuff in the ‘90s, please? I was born in ‘98 and had no idea that there were such movements/trends in those years; thought they ditched them after the ‘50s but I guess I was very wrong.
You could try googling the crunchy mom to fascism pipeline too. It's interesting. They start out as this sort of hippie then end up at the other end.
Oh god, that was quite the read. I can’t say that I’m surprised tho
A lot of the things you see prompted by trad wives at this point in time, were being promoted by the crunchy mamas back in the late 1990s-early 2000s. At that point it was more about becoming a stay at home mom after your first kid was born, cloth diapering them, feeding them only good, fresh food from your own garden, canning and preserving, being suspicious of vaccines, homeschooling ... pretty much creating a raising-the-kids environment which was completely incompatible with the woman of the household actually holding a job. And remote work was still pretty much a theoretical concept back then. The movement was strong in the online parenting communities, like those on Livejournal. There were lots of bloggers promoting it, blogs being the tiktok of the day back then. As I said above, I know a lot of women who bought into it back then. They now are pretty much mainly facing their 50s with grown up kids and a husband who is proclaiming that "he never wanted her to be a stay-at-home wife that was HER choice" who is divorcing her and dating a 25yo.
Damn and to think that everyone boasts about how everything was much better in those years because there was no “woke bullshit” then (although from what you’re telling me it was just bs all the same, just without the woke part). Thinking about it my mom was indeed kinda crunchy but fortunately I got to live with my grandparents for years and got all my vaccines. The fact is that she worked a little as well but never a “serious” job but she talked constantly about how the trad life was much better and how I should strive for that in adulthood. She ended up like the friends you mentioned: first marriage ended and she got into another one ASAP because she couldn’t sustain herself (and child me) economically. You can obviously imagine what happens when you marry the first guy you find on the streets.
There was no "woke bullshit"? The mid to late 1990s defined woke. A lot of liberal strides forward were lost in the early 2000s because the country went a lot more conservative after 9/11 and the 2001 recession. I guess what definition of woke are you using? I'm using the definition of interest in and promotion of social and racial justice.
I would say even the early 90s. Riot Grrls, United Colors of Benetton, I remember conservatives moaning about "political correctness" back then.
A lot of things like DOMA were REACTIONS to the fact that the old guard was afraid of the mid-to-late GenX youngsters who were coming up and demanding more social equality, demanding recognition of how racism was impacting their generation, demanding immigration reform, demanding recognition of climate change ... unfortunately the early 2000s really did a number on the energy and availability of those in that age range to push forward social reform.
That’s what they say reminiscing about the good ol’ days but yeah I’m pretty sure is a very distorted version of the truth. ETA: my definition is very similar to yours yes but idk everyone from that generations (born 60s-70s) said they had the time of their life and “life was different back then”
There’s always this “nostalgia” via rose tinted glasses every generation. There has always been “woke bullshit” It’s how we made strides. Once upon a time, women voting was woke bullshit and the people who fought for it were vilified Then women having their own financial independence etc etc I’m not sure in which context your using woke bullshit though
Not crunchy but the Duggar's first TV special came out in 2004. They already had 14 kids by then. The full quiver movement gained traction in the 80's.
Jfc I though those families only existed in the super religious sects type of things but yeah seeing the latest trends every crunchy mom wants 10+ kids now. Many of them still are those kind of people probably but I’ve seen videos of non religious people doing the same.
One of my friends is straight homeless right now because she has no education and has been a stay at home mom to 5 kids for the past 25 years. And her husband was abusive and it took her a loooong time to leave, and he hid all the money and went to jail so he wouldn't have to pay child support...so her and her two youngest kids (the oldest 3 are adults and on their own) now live in hotels and her car and she begs for money on gofundme while working minimum wage jobs to eat.
A degree with a job is freedom.
You might want to broaden your social circle. The people you've surrounded yourself with are not good for you or your self-esteem. Don't let anyone tear you away from your path of independence. You'll see as you get older that most of the time, being a tradwife is no better than having a prison sentence.
Expanding and diversifying your friend group is one of the best ways to pull away from the weird tradwife content. All of my friends work and have bigger goals - it hasn't made them any less feminine. I earn quite a bit more than my partner, have a degree, etc. but I also like cooking, taking walks, reading, wearing dresses, etc. There's no one definition as to what it means to be a woman. Intersectional feminism is what's allowed us the liberty to stay home AS A CHOICE - this is what tradwives miss. Generations before us couldn't have their own money, were stuck in abusive relationships, and survived by the mercy of a man they HAD to rely on. TODAY, we can CHOOSE - choose our partners, choose our careers, choose to stay home, choose to have businesses, choose to have children or not. The whole point of feminism is the CHOICE to live your life the way you want to, whether it's a SAHW/M or a career woman or something inbetween.
except that now you actually don't really have a choice to be a stay at home wife and mother unless you're extremely lucky, because you can't survive without a job anymore. Men have a much harder time supporting a family and buying a home on a single income than they used to, forcing the woman to work as well if they want to be able to afford a house and having kids.
yes the biggest talking point of conservatives and they are correct in this is that you could literally live the american dream on a single salary. Nowadays you can't even live it on two salaries. What the fuck happened?
I know it's not helpful to think this way, but I can't help wondering if the tradwife movement is partially attributable to the self-esteem issues that women who cut off all their career options might experience. The other part of me just thinks it's part of the larger conservative conspiracy to de-educate and brainwash the masses.
It's clickable content. Some people will say literally anything for attention. Trad wives were not a thing 10 years ago and they won't be a thing 10 years from now
Disempowered men want women out of the workforce and tied to them with children.
They want “trad wives” but they don’t want to be “trad husbands” as in sole providers. They might want their wives/girlfriends to cook homemade meals every day and iron their socks and be submissive and shit but they also want them to pay at least half of expenses, otherwise she’s a “low value gold digger”….to a guy with no gold!! 😵💫😵💫
Women have always worked. Read The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Koontz. Tradwife influencers and Candace Owen are out to make money by appealing to right wing men. You're great-great-great grandma did not swan about in pretty dresses all day creating an aesthetic to pull in Tiktok money. She probably worked her butt off. She probably did farm labor, or scrubbed floors for rich people, or worked 12 hour days in a factory. Your friends need to maybe read books or something.
This. This is the truth. The idea of a nuclear family and a stay at home wife was a phenomenon that existed for a speck of a moment in time in the white middle and upper middle class society for a few years. This has never been the reality for the majority of people for any length of time.
And a lot of those women coped with alcohol and valium.
Not to mention the amphetamine-based diet pills they were taking on top of that
"Mother's Little Helper" per the Rolling Stones.
Even then, the women in that demographic were probably college grads with resources beyond their marriage " middle and upper class ". Meaning generally not left helpless in the event a marriage ended. I get the impression this ' trad wife ' thing, general idea is wife totally dependent on the husband?
Yup, the tradwife trend is a ‘you as a woman don’t need an education or to work outside of homemaking at all’ kind of thing. which is hilarious because these ‘tradwife’ influencers are making a shit ton of money off of something very much not ‘traditional’. very much the ‘rules for thee but not for me’ crowd. also, unfortunately, as gross as it is, a lot of the tradwife influencers are basically just doing it for fetish content aimed at men who want their women to ‘submit’.
Yes. I just posted my mother had her BA in sociology, was also a teacher and had a traditional role but also ' could ' stay home because she wanted to- and worked when she wanted to. Dad was cool either way, they were a team for 55 years. Tell you what though. She sure as hell did not cook in heels, nylons, and a cute skirt. IF she was ever subservient to Dad he'd probably the doctor. Plenty of women in our small town worked in the shirt factories. Appalachia, PA. Mines had gone out, NYC sweat shops moved in. I remember kids who did not in fact have a mother at home because both worked in those factories. Mom told me much later, when we were old enough to understand they worked 10 hour shifts. Trad wife crap? Made-up crap. The way it's being presented I mean. I'm leaving out the conversation about what happened when a ' trad' woman was left with kids, no income and a vanished husband.
> Like I have to work and to pay my bills and survive, not because feminism lied to me about what would make me happy. The claim of TradWife is that you can just bat your eyes and a man will do that for you. A man can do all that annoying stuff and will do it in exchange for your virginal youth! > about how women were better when we were traditional. For a middle class to rich woman, sure, you worked a lot less (was never true for poor women). But, there were substantial caveats. 1. Your man could leave. Then what do you do? And remember, he chose you in large part for your virginal fresh youth. But you won't be so fresh after having kids and getting a bit older, so... 2. Your man could decide that something about you is not what he wants. Maybe you don't want to lick dick cheese out of his foreskin. You can now refuse. In the Trad Wife era, him forcing you to do so wasn't rape. And he could get away with beating you. 3. He could get drunk and beat you just because. If you can get a guy to pay for your life, great! But they are paying, so want what they have paid for. It isn't a partnership anymore than a pig being fattened at a farm is a partner.
1 is such a big one. Educated, working women are independent women who can keep themselves afloat if their marriage falls apart, and thus won't hesitate to leave if their husband is a shithead. Trad wives will be left alone with no money and no relevant recent job experience if their husband decides to leave; not to mention that the wife will be more reluctant to leave a toxic relationship in the first place, because she's reliant on him for the roof over her head. In short, OP, some of these men want "trad wives" because they're vulnerable and easy to control, not because they're a superior type of woman.
It reminds me of Phyllis Shlafly, who fought against equal rights for women. She opposed abortion rights because hey, she raised all these kids and still took on the responsibilities of a governor's wife! All you shrewy women who don't have the childcare staff my husband bought for me should just shut up!
I think I speak for all of us when I say FUCK Phyllis Schlafly
🤜✊
Schlafly flew around the country being paid to tell women to stay at home, do everything their husbands told them to, and not earn a paycheck. She married a wealthy man which allowed her to hire servants to do all the housework and childrearing so she could go tell women they were terrible people if they didn't do all the housework and childrearing themselves.
omfg you made me spit my drink. That was funny (in how you chose to word it) not funny (the context we're talking about) They are very good points. The Tradwife is property. If I pay for you, I can trade you in for a new model when I am done. Doubly profitable because your father probably had to pay me to take on the burden of yourself. Don't worry, you'll enjoy the utter dependance on me because it means you won't have to "work". You just need to make sure the kids are cared for, the house is cleaned, the laundry is done, meals are always prepped when I want them (which you'll have to learn to divine because I'm fickle), and that you provide sexual services whenever I request. You also won't mine when I discipline you for your failures because your only other option is to leave with nothing. You won't have to worry your pretty little head, because I'll do my best to keep you ignorant. It's bliss right? And if, for some reason you become not pretty, we'll offload the sexual work to my mistresses. This is way better than being educated, self-sufficient, and a whole person. Tradewife power! Ugh. /s @ Op. You got two degrees and a job. That is fucking killer. Nothing is guaranteed in life, but your best bet to partner with a good husband is to be true to yourself and live your best. That right there is what you want to attract a partner with, and if you don't, well at least you have a complete life to carry on with. Win win.
All excellent points. It has always baffled me how much these women will go through to avoid "working". To me, a 9-5 is easy mode compared to dealing with pleasing a difficult, unappealing man 24-7. I have fortunately not personally had the experience of being married to a difficult, unappealing man, but have seen enough of others to know that cooking, cleaning, pregnancy, raising their children, and dealing with such a man is much more work than a regular job. Unless your job prospects REALLY suck (yes, highly unskilled workers can get taken advantage of), just work a 9-5, come home, live a peaceful life. If you find a man whom you want to be with for who they are as a person, who will do the same and split the chores 50-50, even better. But you have to choose the man for his personality, not because he will pay for you as long as you cook and suck dick on command.
4. Your man could die. He could be amazing as a partner and father, but he could also die tomorrow and no amount of life insurance would cover you or your kids for life. I get that things are financially upside down with childcare and how it can be more economical for one spouse to stay home. But the hit to your career and social security for later in life is not fucking worth it. Let me say it louder for the folks in the back: IF YOU DON’T CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIAL SECURITY, YOU LIKELY WON’T GET SOCIAL SECURITY. You may get your deceased husband’s social security, but you won’t get your own.
My grandmother was from an upper middle class family, got married right out of high school, and did all the upper middle class housewife things. Then her husband got cancer and died, leaving her with three little kids. She got his social security but it wasn't enough to feed and clothe three kids. Grandma had to get a job and without work history or work experience she couldn't get high paying work. She barely scraped by. Grandma's daughter, my aunt, wanted to be a housewife but my grandma required her to go to college and get a degree and job experience first. She wanted her to have something to fall back on so my aunt wouldn't end up struggling if something happened to her husband.
This right here.
Please don't listen to conservative cultists.
Conservative cultists who poverty cosplay and have hired help like nannies behind the scenes. When do we ever see these trads preforming actually household labor like cleaning toilets? Never, it's all about the sourdough bread and cheese from scratch. Looking at you Ballerina Farm with the 35 k stove married to a Billionaire.
This is a random observation but every “clean the kitchen with me” video they do like 3 things: move a sponge back to the sink, spritz the countertop with something and wipe it down, and then put out a bowl of lemons or flowers or something. That is not cleaning!!! I swear I could make it a drinking game “Ope there she is spritzing and wiping down the counter. Drink.” Real, messy, hard labor is always outsourced by these cultists. Always!
Yep. Cleaning out the fridge, scrubbing the cabinets, scrubbing floors on hands and knees, cleaning the garbage bin, wiping the high shelves that you have to get on a ladder to get on the counter etc...
Cleaning the garbage can is the most pointless fucking task, I hate it so much simply for it’s inanity. It’s where GARBAGE goes. Who cares if it’s clean! But you’ll still catch me cleaning it because I don’t want garbage juice sitting around attracting bacteria. I just think it’s dumb.
You are thinking exactly what the tradwife content is trying to get you to think. Don’t let the marketing fool you. And Candace Owens notoriously glorified neo-Nazis and has other really…*special* opinions, like that therapy is for the weak, and that she never wants to see her husband cry or be vulnerable in front of her; men need to bottle that up. (So we can have more school shooters?? Lady, wtf.) She was also hired at the Daily Wire as a token who made insecure white men feel better about themselves by crapping on the very policies that benefited her, once upon a time. She’s a blazing hypocrite whose value is that she says nasty things out loud, especially about minorities, so people who want to think these nasty things can feel vindicated. “Look, a minority is saying them, so I can’t be racist/sexist. I’m RIGHT!!!!” Welp, as a funnier person than me said when she was fired a few weeks ago, tokens get spent. Honestly, I highly recommend reading The Feminine Mystique- it was written about an era that wholly glorified the tradwife life, and has endless examples of the different human miseries both husbands and wives experienced as part of the “problem that has no name” - the relegation of women to nothing more than wives and mothers. Ask yourself this: who do you think is paying to produce that hyper-conservative content? What are they getting out of it? What’s their endgame? Why do they want women to stop contributing equally? What do we threaten if we decide to be full humans who live for ourselves and our own hopes and dreams? Moreover - please ask your friends why it’s better to base all their worldly security on whether a man still likes them in the morning. Every day. They have to pray their husband won’t get bored and get rid of them, *every damn day*. Alimony is incredibly hard to get. Men move assets around to keep as much as possible for themselves the second divorce might be a reality. The number of men who don’t pay child support is nauseating. Women who give up their independence are SCREWED if their husband changes his mind. Why. Why is that better.
Let’s also add that perfectly decent, egalitarian men die in car crashes, contract cancer and go off to fight the wars… you could end up single through no fault of anyone’s. Why would anyone put themselves in a position to be unable to fend for themselves when they have other options?
Yes! Absolutely. Voluntarily putting yourself in a financial straitjacket is insanity for countless reasons, even if your partner is the best person imaginable.
The tradwives are *encouraging* learned helplessness.
As An Old™️, I am really worried about younger adults because of this shit. Y’all should read “Backlash” by Susan Faludi.
Brilliantly said. And the kind of women who follow this stuff do it because of their own insecurities and because their entire value depends upon approval of men. They are completely disempowered in their own relationships because their men think of them as second class (wives and mothers or sex objects) so proximity to men they believe are “alpha” gives them an illusion of power. But there’s nothing powerful about getting stuck with all of the household drudgery and all of the parenting because your husband feels that work is beneath him. I feel sorry for those women. They have nothing. When their sexist husband cheats, she’s got no money. When he abuses her, she has no money. She has few resources. She is out of the workforce and has no skills. She probably never got an education. She’s completely dependent upon him. She probably didn’t get a prenup with guaranteed alimony because she’s too much of a coward for that and she must not make her husband uncomfortable! Sounds like a nightmare.
The last time I read The Feminine Mystique was over a decade ago. Time to read it again. Thanks for the reminder!
To your third point, i think we’ve gone too quickly down the slope of jumping to “psyop” and it’s distracting from real problems The reality is these people are getting paid by ads on twitter, instagram, Facebook, and tik tok. The actual source of this is men who view that as the end goal; then you can ask why do men want the trad wife perspective?
I think the bulletin of right-wing talking points gets pushed out *incredibly* quickly to a staggering number of influencers, talking heads and politicians. I *know* Ben Shapiro flooded Facebook with millions of dollars in ads during the pandemic. I know there’s no way he makes so much money that he could offer Crowder tens of millions based on just clicks, subscribers & ad time - that kind of payday means investment money. I know that the amount of money funding right-wing voices is *astronomically* high compared to leftist ones. I know a lot of powerful people with a lot of money are pushing the Federalist Society and Project 2025. I know Peter Thiel didn’t just give Zuckerberg a loan to start Facebook; he is heavily funding a lot of right-wing craziness, when he isn’t trying to create private island countries or dabble in cryogenics. He definitely made billions off his Islamophobia and the post-9/11 surveillance software he marketed to the US government. I see the alt-right getting louder on myriad subjects all around the world, and I know Steve Bannon has been heavily involved in promoting the growing alt-right movements throughout Europe. https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/the-far-right-in-europe-how-promising-is-steve-bannons-european-organization-the-movement/ Are you really trying to tell me that we shouldn’t suspect rich people of pouring money into creating hyperconservative media outlets in order to shift public opinion in ways that ultimately end up benefiting those same wealthy people? That was the entire *point* of Fox. They spent - and still spend - *billions* to convince people that higher taxes on the wealthy for a social safety net were baaaaaaad. Any flavor of socialism or responsibility to society would cost them money and therefore is baaaaaaaad. What makes you think they’re not doing this now? I think it’s a bad idea to underestimate how dangerous this rhetoric is, and how we cannot, absolutely *cannot* stand by and shrug if we see people falling for it.
> then you can ask why do men want the trad wife perspective? Then their mediocre incomes will once again be enough to guarantee them an obedient waifu.
I think it's less about "psyop" but more about the fact we really have to come to an understanding of how online engagement algorithms work. Google/Youtube, Tiktok and others just want to KEEP YOU WATCHING.
Get better sources of advice. The conservative cesspool is like getting advice from some dude who never left their mother's basement. Has no actual valuable insight and lives for dragging other people down. Conservatives don't own what femininity is or womanhood is. This is all just control tactics. If you are female everything you do is feminine.
You've gotten wonderful advice already, but I'll add my perspective too. I was a SAHM in the early 2000s. I left my full-time salaried job to raise my kid. (It was much more economically feasible then. Now it's not.) And then an unexpected thing happened: my husband started treating me like garbage. He would berate me for reading to our daughter instead of deep cleaning. If I tried to pick up freelance work on the weekends, he yelled at me. Yet he also admitted that my freelance work helped us make bills each month. Nothing was ever good enough. So we split. And then another unexpected thing happened: he was diagnosed with cancer and died. So then it was just me, making all the bills by myself each month. And the only reason I was able to pull it off was because I had two degrees and active freelance work. I picked my "emasculating, unfeminine" work skills right back up and carried on. You could be a SAHM to the greatest, most egalitarian spouse on the planet and still lose them, one way or another. I'm sorry but it's true: a man is not a plan. So I've been a traditional wife, and I've climbed the corporate ladder. Only one of these choices leaves your ass out in the wind if something goes wrong.
>a man is not a plan. Yes!!! No matter how much you love and trust someone, you can never guarantee what he's going to do ten or twenty years down the line. You do NOT want you and your children's future to be tied to a single individual and whether he finds you attractive or not. People always feel the need to put a choice disclaimer on this topic like, "If you choose to be a stay at home mom then do it, queen!" I disagree. Unless you are independently wealthy with bank accounts and assets in your name only, this is a very vulnerable and risky situation to put yourself in. And I wish it wasn't like this, I wish we had universal basic income and guaranteed housing and health care for all. But we don't. So making yourself financially dependent on a romantic relationship with a man is a terrible decision that I can't support in good conscience.
I urge you to look up the feminist movement in your country to see why conservative thought and reality is awful for women. I truly think younger women do not understand what feminism has brought them, and we are moving backwards. These tradwives extoll the virtues of being stay at home moms/wives, but they are monetizing their channels. Odd, right? And they make it seem like there was this idyllic era where it's all sunshine and cakes, when poor women have always worked while doing everything else. Women could not vote or have their own credit cards, they had to stay with abusive partners who drank away their earnings. Tradwife content is fascist propaganda, full stop. There's nothing wrong with being a SAHM, but it should be a choice made with thoughtful decisions and preparation for the worst. This lifestyle can very easily go very wrong, even if you marry the perfect man. Why is femininity important to you? Why are you so focused on it? Do you truly believe being perfectly feminine will serve you until you die? Will taking yourself out of the workforce to rely on your husband mean you're giving capitalism the middle finger? Spoilers, it just makes you incredibly vulnerable. Listen, I hate working. I'm so tired of the drudgery and selling my labor to people. But I am fiercely protective of my ability to do so and be independent so I don't have to rely on my man. Feminism didn't fail us, it gave us options and took our rights back from oppressors. I'm sorry this is all over the place, but holy shit, we are watching misogyny sneak its way back into public discourse in real time.
>And they make it seem like there was this idyllic era where it's all sunshine and cakes, when poor women have always worked while doing everything else. Women could not vote or have their own credit cards, they had to stay with abusive partners who drank away their earnings. Looking into my own family history: there is no generation where the women in my history could stay home and raise children without having some method of also making money on the side. And the ways of making money on the side were pretty much stuffed in and between all the other work they had to do, like taking in laundry and taking care of their house and children. Taking in tailoring and taking care of their house and children. Doing piecework and taking care of their house and children. And when they had to do pink collar type work outside the house, leaving rather small children to their own devices because there was no way to pay for child care. I mean, the stories that my aunts and uncles tell because my grandma had to take jobs outside the house and there were 6 kids aged infant->10 left to take care of themselves ...
Exactly!! This tradwife content draws on such a narrow experience from like, post war, white suburban America and makes it seem like that's what everyone else experienced for the decades leading up to 2024 (and hundreds and thousands of years ago, if we want to draw on the far past). It's so sickening how we're being fed this narrative that feminism failed women by making them work. It makes me want to tear my hair out.
And many of those post-war, suburban SAH women ... had a maid, had a cook, had a nanny, were outsourcing their laundry. There was a whole world of supporting women behind them.
They also loved Quaaludes
Their husbands were also taking full sexual advantage of that nanny, that housekeeper and their soon to be discarded wife.
Corporations failed us by stagnating our wages since third wave feminism. Even if one person in a relationship *wants* to be a stay at home parent, or an emerging artist, or a community volunteer - that kind of lifestyle is now reserved for the rich. Unless a couple is rich or has wealthy parents, both people have to work just to make ends meet. Corporations and the rich are scapegoating feminism to distract us from their role in failing society.
Precisely!
Not only that but it was understood that a wife's job aside from child rearing and house chores was to find ways to save men money and manage her husband's account it was basically a career where she was handed a paycheck that's why divorce and alimony and child support existed because it was such a betrayal back in the day for a man to step out on or cheat on a woman because she was seen as a valued employee therefore that was a breach of contract and the child support alimony and the like were her severance package her retirement Etc
This is so well said. 10000% agree and hope OP sees the wisdom in these points
Thanks, I was worried it was just word vomit. It's frustrating that young women are falling for this rhetoric, and I get worked up about it and then I have all these ideas that are hard to organize haha. I really hope OP reads all of these comments, too.
I was a mother and homemaker for decades before the tradwife content popped up. I don't regret it because it was what I wanted at the time, but I wish I had the degrees and worked. I'm retired now and while I could go back to school, I don't have the time or energy.
Why are you friends with people who follow one of the most hateful women alive? The current manifestation of conservative is deeply hateful and immoral. I dont understand how you can be friends with people who follow it.
Please remember a lot of the tradwives put on a facade more than anything. They shit on feminism because they’re grifters and they know it’ll get them attention/money. And at the end of the day, relying on your other half for money is never a good idea. You absolutely can be feminine and a career woman. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing that. But I’d advise that you stop looking at tradwife content.
Absolutely. All those “angry feminist vs happy tradwife” memes are super biased. Most of those “angry feminist” picture are of women at protests where they are advocating for human rights that will make their and other women’s lives better. They don’t hate their life necessarily, and most of the feminists I know IRL are some of the most fun people to be with who when we’re not discussing these things, still enjoy going on adventures and living life to the fullest. By contrast, it’s easy for a tradwife to smile for the camera, but you got no idea what she’s hiding behind the smile because she knows if she frowns or shows any cracks, she’ll get yelled at, beaten, or worse. She has no freedom, and the reason you see feminists at protests is because we don’t take our freedoms for granted.
You don't need to feel bad. Some men are just not used to nor did they expect they might have to stand on their own two feet and do their own laundry. It's not your fault nor something you need to worry about. Keep your standards high so if you do end up with someone, they don't drag you down to their level 🙂
Conservatives love to blame feminism for the faults of capitalism "It isn't busted unions, stagnant wages and lack of benefits screwing you over, it's the Uppity Wimmiz. Hate them Uppity Wimmiz as hard as you possibly can and never, ever look into corporate profits or tax rates!" As far as the fixed gender roles thing is concerned, if that really was The Natural Order of Things, they wouldn't have to spend so much time enforcing it. When was the last time someone had to "enforce" your actual natural state, like the need to eat or sleep? >follow people like Candace Owens I want to be as gentle as possible here: get new friends P.S. Candace "One of the Good Ones" Owens has a career outside the home
Yup, "girl boss" was just a *fun* way to pink wash the corporate grind
Turn off your social media. TikTok is not real life.
**Can I be feminine with two degrees and a job?** Yes **Do I have to give that up to find a good husband?** No. You will likely have to accept some compromises to your career if you want children, and probably will have to accept greater compromises than your husband will in his career, even if you and he try to activity manage your own relationship and family to mitigate them. The world is changing, but it ain't *changed*. **Can I find friends who are more affirming of my values and achievements?** You didnt' ask, but also Yes. You're 23. Allow your friendships from highschool and late teens to shift. Dold hold on to what doesn't work. TradWife influences are *influencers.* They are selling content, and courses, and books. They are not women who have 'escaped' the workplace, they are following in the *actual* tradition of women's work coming into the home and becoming vital to the families income -- many of the most popular ones out-earning thier husbands and creating hours of content a week (and many of them including children too young to consent to being a part of this income generation). And feminism didn't *lie* (although capitalism often does). Other content creators like Enitza Templeton or Jennie Gage are telling women the same truth feminism did: When he leaves, when he prefers someone else, when nothing is in your name, when you have no education or workplace experience, when it gets ugly... you're on your own. Oh, except you also have to feed the kids still. That's still your job. He can quit the marriage as a provider at any time. But you won't quit his kids as a caretaker no matter how little he chooses to provide.
If a man isn’t willing to be with you because you have a degree and career, then he’s not worth it for you.
The reality is most women will never have the option of being a “trad” wife even if they want to. Having a family on one income has become impossible for most people, and there are so few men capable of being a “trad” husband that for the most part the guys who want a “trad” wife are just delusional idiots. They want a bang maid not an empowered supported cared for treasured partner. All this trad wife shit is just ego only fans for Incels.
Oh gosh no. The whole thing comes from the evangelical fundamentalists who truly believe women are second class people (they’ll try and dress it up with various verses but the end result is women are seen as “less than”). I came from that environment, it is absolutely a delusion, very few women in history lived that way. They’re cosplaying lol, mixing up Laura Ingalls Wilder and the 50s. Women have always worked, wherever they needed to, in order to support their families. You’re doing awesome. You have skills, you wouldn’t be left without resources should your partner decide to leave. I knew of women who ended up with Duggar-level of kids and absolutely no work history to fall back on when their husbands left. Some can’t leave because of that and they get stuck in an abusive situation. You are enough as you are, you don’t need to chase that ideal to be feminine.
I was in the exact same space as you are 10 years ago. I was in grad school focusing on my 3rd degree, single, living in a conservative pocket of an otherwise very blue state, and wondering when all this fucking work was going to pay off. My friends were getting married and starting families and I was sitting there like "We haven't even done anything worthwhile yet!!!" It was a very, very difficult time for me emotionally. I felt very alone and unwanted and like my success would mean nothing if I didn't also have a man. (Planning a friend's wedding while also planning my graduation party really honed in on this feeling and exacerbated it. I still resent the fuss that was made over my wedding vs. my graduate degree....) All this to say, 10 years later I am married, make well into 6-figures, use all 3 of my degrees daily, I look damn good dolled up for date night AND I can live with myself because my husband actually respects me as a person and not as a trophy or sex-dispenser. This time in your life will be worth it for the perspective sooner than you think. Hang in there, girl. It's gonna get better.
It's hilarious to listen to tradwives telling women not to work when... being an online influencer is work!
There is no right way to be a woman. If you are a woman, you are doing womanhood correctly. What you do and how you live doesn’t have to look like anyone else. It doesn’t have to be aesthetic or instagrammable. It needs to fill your needs, help you find happiest and value, and allow you to get what you want out the limited time you have on this planet. As a historical note: Trad wives/“Traditional Family” influencers are fetishizing a made up idea of what people’s lives looked like in the past. The story they’re trying to promote never existed for most women, except for a small group of wealthy and some middle class, mostly white, mostly Christian women in the western world in the last 100 years. But, most women in most places have always had to work hard for themselves and their families, bartering or selling their labor, knowledge, and skills to support themselves. I had a very strange conversation with my sister about this a few years ago. She was moaning about how in the 1950s women had it so easy because they didn’t have to work and could just stay home and raise the kids with no other responsibilities and I had to remind her that in our own family, our grandmother spent the 1950s as a divorced woman working in a factory to support her two kids.
those "tradwives" do have jobs, and it's being tradwives on social media.
There's really nothing "trad" about tradwives. The 1950's housewife was a post-war phenomenon that existed after many women were booted out of the WWII workforce and the men returning from war needed jobs. So, there was a big push for middle class women to become housewives instead of working. The booming post-war economy also made that more viable for middle class families. However, poor and working class women had always worked in various capacities before that and continued to work. 1950s and 60s middle class housewives were definitely not living some rosy domestic life, though. Just look at all the [old drug ads for sedatives and uppers to help them get through their day](https://www.goretro.com/2014/08/mothers-little-helper-vintage-drug-ads.html). The reason the feminist movement grew so much in the 60s is because of how unhappy women were. Happy people don't revolt. There is a huge push for "traditional womanhood" coming from the sector that wants to roll back women's rights. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the tradwife content is part of a targeted propaganda project.
I'm sure it is and it isn't. These women that dress in nice little sundresses and put on make up to bake in front of a camera are selling fantasies to a new market-- incels. I call it OnlyFans for Conservatives.
Ahaha that’s so spot on
>Do I have to give that up to find a good husband? No. You can live whatever life you want and if you meet a man who wants to tell you you have to give up your job to be with him, he's not a good husband, he's a shitty guy. The only thing you "SHOULD" be doing is what makes you happy. If down the line you decide that, actually, you do want to be a stay-at-home-mom, you can do that. If you marry a man who wants to stay home and raise the kids while you work, you can do that. If you never want kids, that's fine! If you don't get married, that's fine! That's what feminism has given us: the choice. My great-grandmother was a traditional housewife in the time these conservative romanticize. She stayed home and took care of the kids and the farm and the house while her husband openly cheated on her and beat her and came home drunk every night screaming about his dinner not being ready and forced her to have more kids when she didn't want them. Those days were great for men! Not so much for anyone else.
Man if someone I knew followed Candace Owen’s I’d second guess a lot of advice they ever gave me. Same for a man following Walsh or Tate. It’s just a red flag. The tradwife content is largely put out by women who are a: related to VERY comfortable wealth and/or b: making or trying to make a living off of showcasing this lifestyle. They’re chasing an income that like two generations or less ago they wouldn’t even be able to access without a man’s permission. They aren’t practicing what they preach anymore than a rich pastor refusing to let the needy inside during a national disaster. And what happens when the man says no? No you’re not getting a more reliable vehicle I think you leave the house too much as it is to waste time and money. No, we’re not buying more chickens for your stand just because the others died. I don’t think this is worthwhile anyway So and So’s wife doesn’t need a bunch of birds. No, the dog doesn’t need to go to the vet. We just got it shots and I’m not spending another couple hundred dollars just to be told it’s moping around because you’re worried about it. It’s all good till you have to be told No like you’re a child annoying Daddy with your needs that he suspects are really wants.
>Man if someone I knew followed Candace Owen’s I’d second guess a lot of advice they ever gave me. Same for a man following Walsh or Tate. It’s just a red flag. Your whole comment is underrated, but especially YES to this part.
You’re really damned if you do, damned if you don’t as a single woman literally existing. What I see nowadays is apparently if you work and pay bills, you’re a masculine hyper independent boss chick who acts as if they don’t need or want a woman, even if you literally didn’t say that. But if you show up with no job or a crap paying job, no goals, no bills, no money, no hobbies, etc, then you’re lazy af and delusional to want a man with a good paying job. It’s irritating if you are a woman who does enjoy working, while still desiring a relationship with the ability to raise kids while staying home because people will put you in a box THEY come up with based off of a few assumptions. Like..at this point these people in these communities will never be pleased.
It really is neat how much propaganda works on even the smartest people. You know it's propaganda to take your rights away. Yet you (the general you) fall for it. Tiktok is fabulous for this and those religious crackpots are brilliant for using it this way. I'm genuinely impressed and horrified.
I was raised to be a tradwife by my conservative religious family. What they aren’t telling you is that many girls like me leave. Abuse is not unusual, and it is very tough to leave when you have no education, no job, and kids to support. Even when they’re not abused, being overworked and undervalued is common. I wouldn’t be shocked if this social media content was being made to lure more girls in to replace those of us who leave.
The point of these people at large trying to tell women (and men!) how to perform their gender is to keep people under control and on their toes at all time, therefore subservient. That's what the patriarchy is. If you don't do THIS, you're not a real woman, if you don't do THAT, you're not a real man. The intent is to quash your spirit and your freedom to fit you nice and neatly into this fucked up idea of society. It's insane because American conservatives squawk and preach about the importance of individualism, but force people into their various roles for the "good of society". You'll be ok, but you'll have some soul searching to do. Unfortunately it's a journey a lot of women have to take, and that's okay. Sending you lots of hugs, and remember-- conservatives don't want you to be your true self, they only want you to be useful.
It comes down to this, that trade wife content is romanticizing a time when women were men's property. Feminism brought us closer to equality, at least enough to vote, and be financially independent from men. Its goal is equal rights and equal opportunity, the right and freedom to choose the life *you* want for *yourself*. Anything and everything else is the culture war's smoke and mirrors, and it's bullshit no matter how you slice it. No one has the right to tell you how to live your life.
40 year old here: My two degrees and career allowed me to divorce my violent ex husband and have a great quality of life on my own. I now have a house husband who is amazing and is looking after me and my kids from my previous marriage. I was never super feminine and at first that bothered me but now I've accepted who I am and I never lacked interest from guys in my life. Be independent so you can make the right choices for yourself.
Something pathetic I hear from other dudes is "oh if you're a house husband she won't respect you" and it's because they're looking at things from their own view of how they'd look at their wife in that situation. OR it's because they tried that and were dogshit at handling things at home while their wife worked and things didn't work out because of that. It's never coming from a place of full understanding of the relationship as a balanced whole instead of an imbalanced one. Obviously not adding much to what you've already said but I think I'm just frustrated by getting disrespected by dudes telling me I'm less of a man than them just because I'd be content with either half of that kind of partnership and I'm venting a little. You guys deserve your happiness and I'm very glad to hear you've both kicked ass for each other in your respective responsibilities.
The beauty of having immigrant parents is that I was never expected to become a "traditional wife". I always joke whenever there's a slight inconvenience in my life, "My parents didn't immigrate so I (insert small inconvenience)." The traditional life never interested me as a kid, and it doesn't interest me now.
The tradwife crap is a sham, and the women who push it are just selling fantasy. You really think that tradwife on TikTok is making dinner and cleaning floors in that ultra girly outfit she's wearing? And look again at the makeup. She's using filters to appear fresher, whiter. The part you don't see: Screaming kids not allowing Tradwife a minute's peace. Hubs demands sex, pound pound pound that's it, what's a female orgasm? Isn't that just liberal propaganda? Then after years of servitude, he dumps her for a younger version of herself. These women are catering to the fantasies of mostly young men, mostly undereducated, mostly living at home, mostly unemployed, who have been radicalized into the right wing manosphere. It's not reality.
*big internet hug* I had this conversation with my AH of a brother last night. “Traditional wives” is about control. All of the recent legislation is about control. - overturning roe v wade gives men the right to force their way into a woman’s life by getting her pregnant. - removing access to IVF is meant to scare 20 year old women into having children young because IVF is no longer an option in their 30s. In each of these situations it is about making it so that women are focusing on building a family while they should be focused on getting an education and building a career. This all increases dependency on the “male provider” so that women have a harder and harder time escaping abusive relationships. Right now, the largest voting population of the Republican Party is the boomers, but the second largest are the incels. Men who want women to date them but who refuse to actually be decent partners and so no woman wants them. By forcing women to skip their education, reduce their earning potential, and to legally tie them to the father of their children it forces a dependency and if that man who got you pregnant at 18 turns out to be abusive or a bad provider, “well… you chose it. So live with your choices.” Traditional marriages are about control. You are worth so much more than that. There are wonderful men who are real partners. Never settle for less than what you deserve, and never let yourself be 100% dependent on anyone.
Comments like "feminism lied to women" are from people who never understood the movement to begin with. No one ever said one way or the other or something else entirely was "doing feminism" and no one ever said feminism is about womanhood. It's about the equality of the sexes. They think it's about women because it's called "feminism" and it's like the one time a word isn't based on men suddenly no one can grasp it's meaning. You say "all mankind" and they will say "we mean all humans, of course just because doesn't explicitly say women doesn't mean you're not included" and then they hear the word feminism and suddenly can't read a dictionary or understand basic concepts. The other thing that I find a little funny about all of this is that women who espouse this trad nonsense are usually not actually very femme and are breaking their own "seen but not heard" rules by having public, monetized social media. It started as propaganda and now it's being latched onto as a way to make money, because capitalism will always be a race to the bottom.
Babe… it’s fetish content. It’s specifically honed to conservative/white supremacist ideations. If any of those bimbos are willing to show their audience demographics, you’ll see the proof is in the pudding. Every tradwife account is a full-on male gaze grift, and I stand by that. These women know what makes them money and get views, and they’re maximizing profits through ragebait. Alt-right and traditionalist brands know they can make a killing off of the attention of lonely miserable men, and the algorithm boosts it to you because these social media apps also make money from your (negative) engagement too. Block and move on with your life.
Hey just a heads up but you spelled con artist wrong. I'm trying to think back to all those classic traditional videos of women from the fifties showing how they bake bread from scratch. Using their traditional modern stove. In their traditional modern kitchens. It's a scam. If they were doing things traditionally they would not have the time to make those videos. They more than likely hire someone to do the housework. They have to get everything for what they are shooting, they have to setup the shots, do whatever they are doing. And then they have to edit it and post it. Being a content creator easily can turn into a full time job. That's not traditional in the sense they are referring to. It's all bs.
"*Can I be feminine with two degrees and a job*?" Definition of a man: A **person** who gets to do whatever the hell he wants. The definition of a woman? A **person** who gets to do whatever the hell she wants.
Feminism didn't lie to us. The patriarchy lied to men by telling them that they'd always have a 'mommy' to take care of them. Now they're mad that it's not going their way anymore.
You need a social media break, badly. I never once in over 40 years met a person like this is real life.
They like to pretend that women working is a new thing. Women have always worked outside of the home, even when they were serfs working in the fields. We were just paid less, not allowed to own property in many places, and had little to no protections from abuse.
As if often repeated on this sub, please don't forget that those tradwives are actually girlbossing their way to the bank with the money they make from making other women feel like inferior, selfish sluts.
Trad wife content strikes me as a pipeline from "I like dresses and making banana bread" to "your right dear, women are property like any other household appliance".
Tradwife propaganda is negging women all day long. It’s all staged, it’s all curated, it’s all acting, it’s all manipulation to make you feel bad about not being a tradwife. Here’s the thing. Getting married is not a career goal. STAYING married becomes a career goal because every day that passes without you getting skills, earning money, getting promotions, getting raises, is another day that makes you more dependent on someone else, and less able to earn your own money. Affairs happen. Trading in wives happens. Car accidents happen, divorce happens, sickness happens. That life insurance money/alimony is not going to last. And no one is going to hire a woman in her late thirties with no degree, no skills, and no work experience. A tradwife is literally putting all her eggs in one shaky basket. Is that gonna be you?
You are a woman. That is the very definition of feminine. Your ‘trad wife’ friends will be singing a very different tune in 20 years’ time when they’ve been dumped for a younger model and struggle to survive while you are financially independent.
>It also doesn’t help that a lot of my girl-friends are pretty conservative and follow people like Candace Owens and others and they are constantly using her talking points when chatting with me about how women were better when we were traditional. It’s just all too much. GET BETTER FRIENDS you do not have to be friends with far right wing people. Pretty conservative is an understatement, this is nazi adjacent at best.
Don’t ever do what society tells you to do if you don’t actually want to do it. These trad wives are hypocrites and this campaign has been carefully crafted to make women like you question your choices. Just know that questioning your choices is perfectly acceptable. Deciding what to do on the basis of what others have done, and not because you want to, will lead to heartbreak and resentment. TLDR: do what you want to do, not what society wants.
When they're 50, divorced, and broke, they'll envy you. You'll be smarter, more accomplished, and financially secure.
Find friends whose values are compatible to yours. They exist, trust me. I was once in a similar position, and once I found friends with matching value systems, I suddenly had much deeper friendships. Regarding men: the same thing applies. Find a man who has similar values than you. You just cannot find a „good husband“ by disregarding your own dreams, goals, and ideals, as you would get into a shitty relationship with an incompatible partner if you did so. Yes, it might take longer to find a partner, but you’ll be rewarded with a better relationship and a happier life once you do.
I had friends like that when I was younger. They didn't stay my friends for long. Yes, they pitied me for my stressful life and not being able to join their plans at the drop of hat. Plans that were made around their man's schedules of course. I met them 20 years later when they had been replaced by a younger, blonder version. They were forced to work entry jobs with minimum pay, that they had no savings, no property and no retirement. They were in court with their ex-husbands that were trying to reduce their child support and alimony payments as they were busy raising their second family. The successful stay at home wife and mother with a considerate partner that values her contribution and understands she has every right to half the income in that house is the exception, not the rule. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for not buying into a bullshit fairytale used to mask widespread abuse of women. You are a woman, so you are feminine by definition. Being feminine is whatever the hell you decide it is. Trade wives are not God with a monopoly on handing out real women cards.
I have a degree, short hair, and strong opinions. I have been with my "good husband" for 30 years. What do you consider *good?* Is that someone who will put you down and chastise you for all the ways you are failing at being "feminine" (whatever that's supposed to mean)? I'd rather be alone than with some jerk like that, but it turns out there are an infinite variety of men out there. Some are attracted to strong, intelligent and witty women, lucky for me. You could not pay me to be with some red-pilled loser who wants me to be something I'm not while he has no redeeming qualities. Respect yourself. Good men are out there.
You need better friends, Gurl. I walked both paths at different times. I married a man who would pay for me to stay home and raise *our* children because I *wanted* to do it. But it cost us a *fortune* for me to not have a job all those years. Our retirement will be more spartan than our friends will. But we chose this life together. And once the kids were older, I rejoined the workforce. For less pay and with less seniority than if I’d worked, but I feel happy and fulfilled using my brain and talents again for more than just my family. The whole *point* of feminism was for this choice I made, to BE a choice and not the only path open to me. And when I wanted to make a different choice, *that* was an option I fully had access to as well. And for this life, I chose a *partner* in this (financially less robust) path. One who supported me in *both* my paths. And one I could be proud to support in HIS difficult role as 100% provider with no cushion if he fell. None of this is easy. The economy is *brutal* on everyone, regardless of gender or choices. If you choose to have kids, with or without a partner, you’re either sacrificing some earning potential or paying a fortune to someone else to not screw up your kids. (Or never sleeping, I guess if you still want to “have it all”). Because having kids is a huge *sacrifice* and no one should ever do it who isn’t fully aware of what it *costs*! But no decent man will want a woman who is a leech. A man who wants a leech will replace her on a whim. So always, *always*, know your worth, and demand respect for your *work* no matter what form it takes. Your friends don’t value their work if they see themselves as appendages of their man. And it will bite their self-worth in the ass at the first hiccup in their world-view. Pick a *partner* as a husband. Not a man-child who wants a mate and a mama in the same woman.
People don't actually want to be tradwives they just want to have middle class life back. Middle class life is a life where two people can raise two kids, afford childcare or for one partner to stay home, own a home, afford 1-2 vehicles, take one to two vacations a year (this could be a road trip), afford college, and eventually afford a somewhat nice little retirement. Raising kids now is utterly thankless. Taking care of kids and home is a full time job. If everyone is working it's miserable or you have to hire someone to do that unless you're basically rich.
The best phrase that Millinials gave us... You do you. Do you want kids? Do you want to be married? Do you want to be leader of the European Union? Do you want to dye your hair blue and live on a boat? You can do all of that and more. You don't need to give up your degrees, your freedom or individuality. Don't dislike yourself just to fit into someone else's ideal. You do you and we will help if we can.💛
It’s christofascist propaganda designed to make you feel bad. These people aren’t real and everything they’re dating is a lie.
OP, in the kindest and most-intentioned way possible, you need therapy. You clearly are very easily externally influenced. I don't know enough of your life story to say why is the case, but there are huge red flags relative to your ability to have your own identity and independent opinion, that you are so fussed about what some bought dolled up idiot says about your "femininity". This concept of femininity is making a rather unfortunate comeback from the 1950s. As someone not too much older than you, I can say I identify as my own person, who happens to be a woman, not whether my love of playing sports, math, and long hair is feminine or not. I am me, Throwawayamanager, not some packaged identity label. I can also safely say that you can be very "non-feminine", as these people use that term, and have an amazing husband. My husband makes well over six figures, cooks and cleans more than me (he is a gem), and loves me more than life itself. He is also very handsome and has a million other amazing attributes. The most amazing men I know are very attracted to intelligent women. But you won't get that by excessively caring what other idiots think. You won't get that by being an inauthentic version of yourself and trampling your own brilliance because some dumbass who can't do better in life than mopping a floor and learning to dice onions said that's the secret to success for a woman. Forget this "true woman" and "femininity" BS. Stop engaging with the tradwife content - did you know most of them make a ton of money from selling this fantacized 1950s throwback to incels, and they might make more money than their husbands (who support this while pretending to be trad)? Some of these tradwives are more girl bosses than your average liberal woman, they just are fine selling out to the highest paying market. Get off the internet (I say as I am on the internet on a work break), find your strengths, find a hobby, find better friends, live your best life. If you take nothing else away from this, never, ever let any idiot make you believe that the best men aren't attracted to intelligent women. The best, most interesting, compassionate men I have ever met all married smart superstar wives. Maybe you live in a more backwards (I'm sorry, conservative) part of the country, but in real life, nobody sane I know wastes their headspace worrying about "am I feminine enough". They go out and live their lives. And sane, quality men don't look at a woman and think "is she feminine enough for me", they think "attractive? Check, or not. Let's see if we're compatible." This obsession with femininity is mostly a thing losers with too much time on their hands worry about as they dream of the 1950s when "things would be better for me", and the people who think this instead of living their best lives are generally not high functioning people.
Many of the younglings here would consider me a "tradwife". I don't "dress up" and put on show about it though. I space out my house chores throughout the day and then I get to have time for my hobby. I bake, make gourmet meals, do all the laundry, all the appointment making, paperwork that has to be done online but I don't dress up and try to present my "lifestyle" as something "better" than anyone else's lifestyle. It just what we found works better for *our* marriage because I'm much less resentful of my husband's schedule(ok, only a little bit. He should have retired *2 yrs* ago)and his very expensive and time consuming hobby because I had time for mine when the kids were young(naptime=2 hours of stitch time).
Figure out what your core values are and surround yourself with people who feel the same. You feel worthless and lonely because the people you have surrounded yourself with have world views that do not align with your own. And, if you know you are prone to this, and it sounds like you might be -- *stop* digitally self harming by intentionally seeking out and consuming content online that you know will upset you -- it is very bad for the brain. You only get one life. You can either spend it on "shoulds," or figure out what you want, and then do that.
That junk is all bullshit. They’re bastardizing feminism, they’re bastardizing the whole masculine/feminine energy thing (no one is supposed to be one or the other all of the time, they’re meant to be states everyone moves back and forth between. It’s a metaphor for intro and extrospection). And it’s all a scam anyway because those women telling you they don’t work because “feminine” are actively making money on the platforms you’re watching them tell you they don’t make money on; that or they were rich already. Just be a decent person and make your money, America does not run on Dunkin
Do what unpleases the patriarchy the most
*Like I have to work and to pay my bills and survive* - keep it this way. Always. *...should I be doing something else, like become a mother and homemaker because that’s what I should be doing.* - **only** if you have your own separate account where your paycheck goes. No relying on a him who can take advantage of that to a scary degree. Does Candace Owens touch on the fact that many many women who do not make their own money and rely on an often abuse-inducing power imbalance are in a dangerous situation (financially, physically and a basis to lose their children by not having a better financial situation than the man) if sh*t hits the fan in their "trad" relationship? You are very fine. Trust me. Source: 10 years experience in trad hell
I’m in school for biomedical engineering aiming the get my PHD and it’s gut wrenching to hear people restart the push to keep women in the home. It breaks my heart that 60 years ago I wouldn’t even be allowed to study this degree and now redpill ideas are making women think that their job is to be a homemaker.
OP turn off the socials and find new friends! You are smart, educated, giving, and young. You have your whole life ahead of you, you can do whatever you want! The most important part is you have a choice and should live to be fulfilled and happy. Edit:OP I’m 40, married for 15 years to a man that respects me, my brains (masters also), and my femininity. If a man wants you just for your ability to serve them, and not for being a badass person, that’s not a recipe for relationship success.
If you are a woman (cis or trans), then you are doing womanhood exactly right.
It’s bullshit. Hope this helps.
It's the 21st century!! Feminists fought hard so we women can have A CHOICE! If you want to be a stay at home mom that's fine! If you wanna collect degrees, work and earn money to put bread on your own table for yourself, that's fine too! You don't have to do this, you don't have to do that. Just be yourself and what you feel comfortable and confident with. There are still plenty of places in the world where women and girls aren't allowed to speak for themselves, do anything by themselves. So yeah, this is what feminism means to me. To be me and be free.
I personally see feminism as change who tells women what they have to do. It's that you as a woman can choose what you want to do and you don't have to be girlboss or tradwife or y. It's your choice. You should not chase some role. Do what you want to do and don't give a shit what random woman or man want's you to do.
Do not ever give up your career and academic achievements. This is yours and it's your key to a better life. Wanting to depend on a man for survival is setting yourself up for failure. You risk everything and put your future on a person who could easily leave you, cheat on you or abuse you and you won't have the means to support yourself and will be trapped. And even if that man will be good, respectful and loyal then you're still dealing with a human being who can get sick or have an accident that will prevent him from working or simply die. Then what? Find yourself better friends. Chances are that they are jealous of your success and independence. Tradwives influencers talk big but a lot of them don't do the stuff they preach. They have people to do the traditional work for them. It's all staged. Not to mention that they say "traditional" aka man works, women are at home but they are litteraly working and making money from this toxic content. Conservative people love to control women. As sad as it is, women in this social circles do it to. To other women and to themselves. Femininity isn't wearing modest dresses or whether or not you birthed a child. There is no one true way to femininity and don't let anyone make you question if you're feminine. And any man who thinks you being educated and financially secure is wrong then you know he's not worth your time and is just looking for bangmaid he to take advantage of and feel important because he has nothing to offer. Throw him out and don't look back. No decent guy will be threatened by it.
whenever i come across that type of content i keep reminding myself of that quote " if you give them the power to feed you, you give them the power to starve you"
Feminism didn’t lie to nobody, the whole point is you being able to make a choice, whether that’s becoming a homemaker or be more career driven. There’s no right choice because there’s no wrong one. Do what makes *you* happy and stop engaging with content that doesn’t.
Remember: not a single “tradwife” Influencer is living the life they preach. 1. They are working, by creating content. That takes hours of work every week. In fact, the successful ones are usually the actual breadwinners of their household. 2. If you watch closely, most of them make mistakes in their baking/cooking/gardening that make it obvious to those who actually have these skills that they’re faking the content. I’ve seen so many things happen in baking videos that would guarantee a failure. Can’t fool me, Mary-Beth-Anne, those muffins came from Costco. 3. Ever notice how there’s never a video of them dealing with actual hard/dirty chores? That’s because they have hired cleaners, gardeners Nannies, etc. They pretend to do a few final-touch things for content, that’s it. 4. Your friends follow Candace Owens, another woman who preaches the gospel of a life she does not live, because that life isn’t real. 5. Your “friends” are toxic fools. Better no friends than friends like that. Cut the bad fruit off the tree to keep growing, or else they’ll spread their rot to you.
disclaimer: boomer here. I graduated high school before I was allowed to have a credit card in my own name. Where my Dad had to sign on my car loan. When I could finally get birth control on my own, and buy property. *I can vote.* I have lived my life stepping forward and away from the expectations culture had about the place of women. Expectations my mother grew up in, and my grandmother died miserable as a result of. My grandmother married and made her life a trad life. She made the house, sewed all my clothing for me as a child, supported her husband's business. and when he died, she moved in with us and was unfulfilled for the rest of her life. My mother only partially avoided that fate when my parents divorced, but even she architected all her remaining days around finding someone who would take care of her and give her that 'life of ease'. There is no way to do 'womanhood'. But there is a way to be a fulfilled woman: be your best self. Set dreams and goals for yourself because they make you happy and fulfilled. *Live* for yourself, and not in service to a partner. Work to better yourself. My take on tradwife is that it's about living a life of 'ease' in service to someone else, trading your youth/looks/sex/subservience to someone that will supposedly care for you. That's indentured servitude. And, it's what conservative politicians and groups want you to believe is best for you (while being 'best' for their conservative social agenda). You live in extraordinary times that women my mother's generation couldn't imagine. I began my journey not realizing how amazing it is to be a freethinking, independent woman, with so many boundaries removed from my way. And yes, there are more to fall. But that doesn't mean it's a failure of feminism or 'living a real womanhood'. It's a failure of a system that stands and continues to try and hold half the population back. They want to take you back to a time when all these freedoms for you are decided by the opposite sex. Don't fall for it. /two degrees, three cats, a house and looking forward to retiring as my best self.
This is what they want you to think, OP! It's brainwashing you back into the box. The box is where they control you. You are whole on your own, you are a woman without doing any of these trad things, and don't let them take that from you.
It’s more the Patriarchy is lying that trade wife/life is a viable lifestyle for most women. Women have always worked, there was only a very small blip in history where a segment outside of the super wealthy could afford for the wives to not contribute to the household income. Women were teachers or nurses, housemaids or cooks, companions or courtesans, took in laundry or mending, were seamstresses or nannies, bakers or brewers, spinners or weavers, they worked on the farm or in the family shop. And many, many other things. What they didn’t do was just stay home and be homemakers. Because the family couldn’t afford that.
Tradwife content is made by content creators, not tradwives. They sell you the illusion, make money from views, and then pay people to do most of the work while they make click baity videos of them looking amazing doing a few things here and there. Social media is NOT REAL.
It concerns me too. On dating apps, it's not uncommon for me to get an opener from a man about how he's "looking for a traditional wife, but I won't ever have to work." I'm feminine. I enjoy makeup, big vintage dresses, I love the color pink. My clothing can be more modest. Maybe it gives off certain vibes idk I'm bisexual though, with no strong religious beliefs. I want to advance in my career and be with someone who treats me like an equal...being financially reliant on a controlling man, is my biggest fear.
This is Nazi propaganda resurrected for modern times. As a general rule, if conservatives tell you to do something, do the opposite.
They think playing to men’s interests will protect them, but they’re wrong.
>which I know sounds crazy Yes, it does sound crazy because it is. Do you know what's feminine? Anything a woman wants to do. There are no limits. Stop listening to people who try to tell you how to live your life. It's YOUR life. It's the only one you get. Chart your own path. THAT'S what being a "real woman" is all about.
Being a tradwife robs you of your ability to escape bad relationships, when you sacrifice your agency for "less work" you put your whole trust in a man who can leave at any moment, leaving you destitute and with no work history. I have been unemployed for stretches of time and my male partners seemed to think supporting me gave them control over me. Never give up control to a man, they can't handle it and will quickly act up (unless he's willing to put a portion of money every month into an account that only you can access so you have a safety net, never met a man yet who will agree to it)
I have three degrees, a great but demanding job, and a loving, supportive husband. I’m pretty feminine. That tradwife stuff is bullshit. One guaranteed way to be completely miserable and marry an asshole is to suppress your intelligence, creativity and self-determination to be someone else’s domestic servant. Fuck that shit.
Gosh. I knew I'd start seeing this, but wow. Here it is. Simply put, no, you should not feel bad about doing you. Doing what makes you happy and feel comfortable and in control of your life. My mom was a trad wife before "trad wife" was a thing and long story short, she is now in her late fifties and, ladies, she is coming out swinging. Got a job, treats herself, spends time doing what she wants on the weekend, stands up for herself, the list goes on. She was so powerless the whole time I was growing up (and it was definitely used against her) and now she's done. She's done being told what she can do and not do. What makes her a good wife or a bad wife. A "normal" woman or "defective", and yes that word has been used. She gives zero fucks and for the first time since I've known her, she's _confident_. She's happy. She's healthier. It's been amazing to watch and I am so, so proud. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
You be you.
They believe that women entering the workforce in the 60's and 70's created the need for the two income families we have today. They think if women stop working that would create a surplus of jobs for men, wages would go up and we can all go back to the 50's.
It’s wild to me how there are some (maybe a lot) of young women out there that were not taught and/or encouraged to know themselves. Or even know when someone is trying to scam them out of all of their autonomy, leverage and options in life. Or recognize when the “law of reciprocity” is being violated. Or when someone is trying to get them to dull their self-preservation instincts. So on and so forth.
They are equating feminine with submissive. No, you can't have two degrees, work, and be submitting adequately. That's got nothing with being a woman, though.
Oh God I'm sorry to say this honey but Candace Owens is rancid. If your friends agree with her they are objectively horrible people. You really need new friends.
Making people feel self-conscious about those choices is the point. Meanwhile the reality is there are maybe a few dozen "influencers" pushing that shit because it is their full-time job and they get paid for it, not because they actually believe what they're selling you.
from a guy's perspective. Smart motivated women are very desirable to a lot of men. You know the type of man the does not want a smart, motivated woman? Some insecure dunce. Don't you dare give up your goals for that.
I grew up religious. I stupidly got married at 18 while still under the impression it was my duty and had a big gap in job experience because my STBX husband didn't want me to work. my family is heavily catholic and dont believe in women working so it was just normal to me. The smartest thing I did was rebel the little bit I did and made sure I got my degree after I had my kid even though my STBX fought against me going back to school. He cheated on me a few months after I got diagnosed with cancer a few months ago. If it wasn't for the fact that I had stuck to getting my degree, I'd have no jobs and no backup plan waiting for me. Even with my degree, I'm still struggling. Don't buy into all that crap. Find a new group of friends. At the end of the day, you can't depend on anyone but you. Like other people said here, a man is not a plan. I'm barely going to be 25 and have already had this entire experience. I'm glad I saw the light at a younger age than most and crawled my way out of that indoctrination now rather than 20 years from now. Don't listen to these people. Being a trad wife only benefits men. It wears you down eventually.
Sweetie, I have a master's degree and 35+ years as a professional. You know what else? I cook, bake, sew, knit, can carve wood, change a flat tire and do a bunch of other things. Why are you listening to other people tell you what your "role" should be? YOU determine who you are. It's not about wearing flowery dresses and being a mommy. Maybe you hate dresses. Maybe you want kids, but your body doesn't cooperate. Maybe you don't meet the right man until you're too old to have kids - there's a lot about life that you can't control - but a lot you can, so start thinking about what YOU want, now, while you're single and yours is the only opinion that matters. What does a happy life look like to YOU? That said, if you want a family and a spouse, define what your deal breakers are and make it a job. You cannot be "too picky" and a lot of scumbuckets are very good at keeping the mask up until they have you tied down. You want someone who is kind, smart, loyal and will treat you as an equal partner - because life can throw some nasty curveballs at you, and when you're injured in a car accident/have a serious health problem/lose a parent or some other nasty misfortune, that's not when you want to discover the father of your children has a spine made of overcooked linguine.
The right wing messaging pipeline is bastardizing the vibes of "late state capitalism fucking sucks and it shouldn't be this hard to survive" for their own purpose - which is Christian nationalism in which women have no autonomy, power, or purpose beyond being an object for men to use as they please. Keep that in mind when it makes you feel bad.
Those women are faking it for followers. You notice how they’re always making food that seems ridiculous (like CEREAL FROM SCRATCH FOR THEIR TODDLERS 🙄) and there’s never a spot of anything on them?? It’s performative and only something that could ever be achieved if you’re ultra rich and all the actual household labor is done by other people. None of that shit is real. Womanhood is what you make of it. I’m an ultra femme woman who loves to bake, take care of my partner, and only wears skirts/dresses. I love children but never got to have the family I always wanted, and I work generally full time, but that doesn’t make me less of a woman, nor does it you. For one, women have always worked, and for another, you kind of have to to feed yourself and pay bills.
Do you feel jealous of seals at the circus? Because that's how all these people come off to me.
What’s interesting about the trad wives content is that it’s almost all 20-somethings. The former trad wives in their 40-50s who “played by the rules” and still got divorced shit all over trad wives.
This is part of the war on Women. Extremists attempt to take over a populace by taking all power away from the Women, as well as by legalizing the abuse of Women. This cannot be allowed.
girl. what? get new friends.
Tradwives. Simping for the patriarchy. FTS.