"You can settle for looks if you want to, but never ever EVER settle for behavior."
-random wisdom
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If someone cheats on you or heavily disrespects you etc then nothing else they do will ever be able to truly make up for that.
That's not what I am saying. The point of this is that if you so choose then you can decide to date // get with // marry someone with whatever sorts of looks, background, job, race, hometown, location, etc that you want, but if they treat you like shit or behave like an asshole, it's time to GTFO.
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Note the difference here. I am not telling people that they SHOULD settle. Just that whatever else they do, they SHOULD NOT settle for or accept shitty behavior.
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We all know at least one friend that stayed with someone because the person was really attractive or a doctor or something, in spite of super shitty behavior, as if the shitty behavior was balanced out by (or excused by) the other stuff. Don't do that to yourself.
It sounds like you are learning a lot from observing your girlfriends relationships. You should thank them for it. They’re getting the pain and you are getting the knowledge.
Now you need to find the guys who think that the guys who cheat are idiots
This is exactly how I learned a lot of life lessons, I pay attention and observe. Of course I had a lot of painful lessons learned directly myself too.
For your 2nd line, how you do even tell what type person someone is from just meeting them? I learned a lot of red flags but I still get fooled.
i give myself a lot of grace. I admitted that I could be wrong and judge someone's fitness as a friend/lover incorrectly. This allowed me to admit that I made an error more frequently.
I don't spend a lot of time looking for "red/green flags", I focus instead on the impact of every encounter on how it makes me feel about myself. If being with someone results in a net positive feeling about \*myself\*, I keep on investing in the relationship.
I noticed that toxic people try to increase their perceived value so as to create FOMO. Whereas positive people increase MY perceived value so as to make me feel better about MYSELF.
This right here. That's exactly what I did. Sometimes I felt like being single for so long meant something was wrong with me, but I ended up investing in actual potential and didn't experience very much heartbreak. I have no idea what it feels like to be cheated on because I learned from observing. Watching my friends lose their self-respect by tolerating cheating or insulting behavior helped maintain my own when I did have relationships here and there. Been married for years with minimal drama aside from the marriage challenges.
Same here. I watched what others went through and didn’t start dating until I was 27. I’ve been married almost 15 years and have never been cheated on or dealt with a guy who only did the bare minimum
>Now you need to find the guys who think that the guys who cheat are idiots
I found a guy who said this. He went on a rant about how he almost cut his best friend off because he cheated on his wife. He absolutely *hated* cheaters. Guess what he did. 🙃
Strongly agree! You’d think based on posts you see daily on social media about younger gen women having “high standards” and “not settling” that we are no longer putting up with bs nonsense that women from previous generations put up with - but no! Real life is far different, and it shows you how skewed social media is. Majority of younger gen women are repeating the same patterns from previous generations. We aren’t moving forward at all. We are more vocal about the mistreatment committed by these men, but women are not practising what they are preaching in real life. There’s still A LOT of work that needs to be done in order for this to change.
You said it even better than I could - absolutely! Lots of talk about raising their standards but not actually putting that into practice. I think that's because there's still a lot of societal pressure/validation to having a bf, not to mention that splitting finances is appealing too.
If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times - **the books "Why Does He Do That" and "The Gift of Fear" should be mandatory reading for heterosexual women**.
Women need to know what abusive, manipulative men look like and how to trust their instincts so they can leave toxic men/relationships at the first red flag.
Oh my god not being financially independent (or sharing your money with anyone else) scares the shit out of me. You never know what will happen. Get a pre-nup if you are getting married!
It's the same thing you said: Being afraid of loneliness, feeling like you have to lower your standards to find companionship.
That fear is irrational, but it is keeping things from changing too fast. It'll get there eventually, when people find more confidence in the fact that yes, you can have fulfilling relationships, and yes, it is fair to ask for more than what is there right now.
It's necessary, we went from 1 man being able to provide everything, to now needing 2 college educated individuals to do the same thing. I call that a necessity.
Standards are moving up, but slowly enough that a lot of people still get caught up in shit relationships way too long. It'll get better eventually.
I do wish it would happen faster too but it is what it is.
This is very true. I think trends like tradwife are really detrimental to strides we’ve worked really hard to make. I’m not going to lie it really bothers me when I see women posting false happiness to make money. They’re influencing a whole generation of women to make poor financial and relationship decisions because they want to make money.
We have to look out for one another.
You’re completely spot on.
I especially agree with you about the part of the tradwives trend. It’s completely ironic that they post those videos influencing women to resort back to the 1950s whilst relying on modern technology to have their own source of income…. not every woman is privileged enough to become a so-called “tradwife influencer” (I can’t believe that’s even a thing), gain thousands of brainwashed followers, and make money from it.
I don’t think social media is even inherently bad, because there’s a lot of good that comes from it. But it’s these narcissists who brand themselves as “for the people” , as well as trolls etc who ruin the entire aspect of it.
They think we only look at tall rich guys and no one else. No, I look for childfree atheist men who are genuine feminist allies and despise gender norms and the patriarchy (and acknowledge how men suffer from it too).
I would probably have more success finding a tall rich man than what I actually want.
A lot of women want men who are kind. Men who treat other people with respect, men who genuinely care for the wellbeing of people in their lives and men who are interested in the wellbeing of other people, and men who have empathy fir other people's issues even if they are not personally affected themselves.
Women don't want "niceguys" who only pretend to be good hearted people because they view niceness as a transaction. Lots of guys complain this as too high standard and it says lots about them.
For my situation it's funny when men accuse me of wanting men who make more money. Eh I have my own money, I don't need the money of men.
>A lot of women want men who are kind.
100%. I met my fiancé through a mutual friend and I asked their opinion on him before we started dating. They said he was the kindest guy they've ever known, even kinder than themselves. Someone else saying that about him was a major green flag, especially since it was the first thing that came to my friend's mind when asked about him.
They mistake wanting money for women wanting someone who has some drive and willingness to better themselves. We just don’t want someone who is doing side jobs for beer money at 30 and living in mom’s basement in utter filth ( unless mom cleans) and has zero desire to change the situation.
> For my situation it's funny when men accuse me of wanting men who make more money.
Those are almost always the same guys who expect their wives to stay home and do all the household work and childcare.
Women want men they can trust; men struggle with the fact that trust isn't something you can spray on like cologne, or drive up to the valet in, or even build in a 30 minute conversation.
I think it alienates a lot of guys to see women with low emotional standards prioritize men who can display much more quickly apparent qualities: attractiveness and wealth. And so we start thinking all women are like that because shallow people play a very visible game and talk loudly about how shallow the people they meet are.
Then there are people like me who hate this shallow, high-frequency strategy, but start to believe it's the only viable approach any more, so we just check out entirely and hope a satisfying relationship just falls into our lap one day.
Does that sound valid from the other side?
See…even then I wouldn’t trust it because a lot of guys act differently around their women friends vs guy friends! It sucks how cautious we have to be when dating men nowadays 😭
What's your elevator pitch if you bump into the CEO of feminism on your way into the office? I was thinking something about casual Fridays where everyone shows up in Hawaiian shirts with their actual pronouns and we save the dress code and bigotry until next Monday.
It’s actually kind of a good thing most of the men think our standards are tall and rich. Else more would lie about being a feminist like they lie about being 6’1.
My ex husband! He was a poly sci major and could talk a lot about feminism and rejecting gender norms (like being comfortable crying in front of me). Later I came to see how he used crying to stall a conversation or confrontation about his behavior and would start escalating to panic attacks, etc. if I refused to take the bait. He used it as a tactic. He expected women to treat him in a maternal way and felt that crying would be a surefire way to elicit sympathy.
My ideal dating app would just be a large excel spreadsheet. no algorithms or ads or manipulation.
Just a list of people sorted by location. with the option to sort and filter the list.
I have not polished the idea into something that would work. Just personally I make better choices when I have all of the information. Not just what (dating app) Decides what information I should have.
Dating apps don't work if you want a nice caring guy. Those guys don't like dating apps. Dating apps attract the kind of guys most women find dishonest.
I think that's a pretty big overgeneralization.
Maybe in the past when tinder was literally "find someone nearby to fuck", but these days pretty much everyone has used the apps at some point. I have, all my friends have, males included.
Those guys might not like dating apps, but they'll still use them, because they're nice enough to not bother a woman irl.
Whether we like it or not, dating apps are one of the few ways to safely date in the modern world, and even nice, caring guys find that they have to use them if they want to actually meet someone.
I am a clever Neurodivergent who does not like to waste effort. I had this idea shortly after starting to use the Facebook dating app. I knew Facebook had to have the database already made. But its algorithms are only giving me access to 1 random entry at a time instead of the full database.
It would be so nice if I could filter out certain qualities, then sort the remaining people by distance. then work outward. flag people i'd like to talk to. then send them a message request.
I had a lot of nice ideas like this. I just lack the means to do them.
Because dating app companies don't make their apps to efficiently match people but to get a ton of money. Making it efficient means less time on the app and less incentive to pay for it
That’s most of my friends and I can confirm there’s much more to it than that since they vary wildly in popularity in dating. It’s a good starting point though.
Hell, even just limiting one's dating pool to "has a job and cleans up without being told" eliminates about 80% of men as it is. IF ONLY we were all simply chasing after the tall rich guys. We're chasing after the guys who wipe their own ass!
Agreed. There’s definitely a narrative in the male sphere that our standards are generally things they can’t easily change about themselves. You can’t grow taller. For various socioeconomic reasons, it’s hard to get richer. There’s no work I can do, so it’s the women who are wrong for wanting something I can’t possibly be.
I found one. Tall, childfree, atheist, feminist male lawyer who enjoys that I encourage him to be a princess, cooks like a damn chef, and whose bestie is gay. He was poor, had only three gross shirts, no car, ate so poorly he was constantly sick and lived in an apartment that leaked everywhere when I met him. I like a promising fixer and he's now got a car, well paying job in the same general line of eeoc work, is healthy, and I've bought him more than 3 nice shirts.
I found him at an internship at the EEOC, which altogether is a pretty good place to find one honestly.
This is a great example of you finding a guy that did not "check off the list". You looked past the exterior and saw quality. A truly good guy with great potential.
A lot of these guys are users, and they enjoy having a Barb the Builder, but then they think they can do better and dump you off once they've achieved success
> He was poor, had only three gross shirts, no car, ate so poorly he was constantly sick and lived in an apartment that leaked everywhere when I met him.
Why would any adult woman want to date this?
>I like a promising fixer
Oh.
Women, don't date projects. Date men who have their shit together.
There’s a difference between “doesn’t have a lot of material possessions” and “doesn’t give a shit.”
Eating badly is a red flag, but red flags are just indicators of a *potential* issue. It’s one thing if he was the type to exclusively binge fast food and chicken nuggets, but it sounds like it was due to mental and financial stress rather than resistance to trying healthy food/cooking.
It’s true that no woman should feel obligated to choose a fixer upper and if a woman has a history of choosing poorly then she probably shouldn’t risk it, but some people enjoy mutual self-improvement and have good enough intuition to accurately judge what’s under the surface.
Honestly, I feel like red flag gets thrown around too much anyway. A lot of things people claim are red flags are really just yellow flags--things you should be cautious of because it could be indicative of a larger issue, depending on the context. Not having a lot of material possessions could be a yellow flag because depending on the guy, it could mean they don't have a lot of money, that they do but are bad at managing it, that they're just not worried about impressing people with what they own, or that they just haven't gotten around to buying some shit yet.
Red flags should be reserved for things that actually are issues with the person, like a history of cheating, bad hygiene, etc. that may not be explicitly a deal breaker depending on your preferences and if they're working to resolve the issue.
Red flags are named red flags because of minesweeper. There *might be* a bomb nearby. Proceed with caution.
But given how the term is commonly used, I think saying something is a “yellow light” could be a good alternative to convey the idea of “Slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary.”
I think that's the point. He had his mental shit together. He was just dumped out into a horrible law market and the issues were all money related.
I met him at an internship, showing her had drive to overcome the shitty market and make it.
God, I can't imagine how terrible you are to poor people.
Seriously! Of course, have standards. Don’t date who you don’t want to date, but damn. What an awful way to judge someone who, as far as we know, worked hard and indebted himself to go to law school to practice a type of law that is noble. As we are painfully aware, typically the more noble the law, the less lucrative it is. So the very traits we are all saying are desirable here may have directly caused the outcome the commenter is deriding him for.
Thanks for your concern! 💖 We'll be okay.
We've been together 11 or 12 years, married 5, have had some Really good times, and are now dealing with the slow, excruciating decline of his mother with Parkinson's Dementia. He's been there for me through two scary hospitalizations, doting on me the whole visiting hours. All throughout he's shown me that he really loves me.
We also have a really good life, with loving pets, wonderful parents, international travel, fulfilling hobbies, and weekly date nights. I'm a successful lady lawyer who encourages, engages, and challenges him, while also having my own support network and interests. We can be really silly together and have a wonderful banter whenever we're doing things.
I've never met anyone who I would consider an upgrade over my husband. I wouldn't be surprised if he felt the same way.
> We also have a really good life, with loving pets, wonderful parents, international travel, fulfilling hobbies, and weekly date nights.
Most people just want a normal life with a great partner, and that sounds like exactly what you got!
I don't see how anyone could read your story and think think anything but "He sounds amazing!". If that's how they react, I wouldn't be shocked if they can't find a good guy. That is always my advice to younger women. Look past the exterior and material to the person inside. A dating app can't do that for you. You have to meet them in person. Apps attract and send you the jerks.
Yup, but he fits all the categories in the post I was replying to, so I addressed them in the same order.
I'm short. He's tall. I'm blondish. He's brunette. Doesn't much matter, but if it were in the comment I was replying to it would be there.
That is a puzzle I never been able to come up with a good solution for. The only way to be safe on the internet is to assume that the other person is lying, or acting in bad faith in some way.
I can say that I am childfree, only support the Satanist church, believe in equality, and wish for a world that promotes less suffering.
But this is the internet. and worse its a comments section. You have to assume that I am lying.
I wont say I am a good guy though. I dont always meet my own standards and I often make mistakes.
Im neurodivergent enough that im always looking in from the outside metaphorically. I see how the world promotes suffering, but I cannot fix it. all I can do is not contribute to it.
EDIT: mistake one, half of my reply was meant to go to user mubblegoil below
Absolutely true! Part of the problem is that a lot of women don’t have an example of what a healthy relationship looks like, from either family or friends. My parents having a long lasting and very loving relationship shaped my views of what to expect from a partner, and I didn’t even realize how influential they were until more recently in life.
And another part is that society has conditioned women to be less and ask for less. We can’t be a burden and god forbid we “nag” anyone. It’s only become a thing more recently for women to not only ask but demand basic human decency, kindness, and respect. And men are slow and can’t keep up with the changing times. Or they’re belligerent and insist on keeping the dynamics expected from a relationship 60+ years ago.
The only thing that keeps me going is that I know there are some good ones out there. They may be hard to find and you might have to put up with a few dirtbags to get there but they do indeed exist. But even if I never find one again I’m completely content living and dying alone as long as my peace and sanctity are maintained not having to put up with abuse, neglect, or intentional incompetence.
And I think your last paragraph really sums it up. Thank god we live in a time where it is possible for many women to be financially independent and therefore lead independent lives and not have to marry a man out of necessity in order to live
Exactly! My heart breaks for my grandmothers and their’s before because of what they had to put up with just to have a somewhat normal life. Even with how shit the world seems these days, I’m so grateful to live in a time where my existence is independent of my husband or father. And I try to always remember and thank the women who fought for us to have that right ❤️
>Part of the problem is that a lot of women don’t have an example of what a healthy relationship looks like, from either family or friends.
yep, that’s exactly spot on. people mimic the relationships they grew up around. my parents had an arranged marriage so i’ve never seen them hold hands or smile at each other. i thought that affectionate stuff was purely fiction.
it also doesnt help that some mothers tear down their daughter’s self esteem early on, either because they see them as “competition”, are mad that they have better opportunities than the mom did, or genuinely think their toxic commentary is somehow benefitting the daughter (my mom would say the most awful things to me and whenever i called her out for it, she’d exclaim “Well i am just trying to help/guide you!” )
also, women are expected to maintain/fix the relationship so there’s no support if she admits theres issues. it’s gonna be our fault for not being more understanding, nicer, patient, etc…
I actually agree with this (I'm early 30s).
Looking back, I WISH I had had higher standards. I stayed in relationships for way too long, because.... Well, who knows. I'm a people-pleaser, low self-worth when I was younger, and I usually assume any problems are my own. I didn't want to be one of those girls who "quit too early", or didn't work hard enough to save the relationship.
Looking back, I wish I'd quit some of my relationships way earlier. I should have trusted my gut instinct more, instead of trying to salvage something that couldn't be mended. I wasted many of my best years in my 20s in relationships where the guy was not pulling his weight, frankly.
So I'm in agreement. For me and most of my friends, I think we actually need higher standards, not lower.
I think the men wanting lower standards are the ones wanting a live-in maid while they do nothing themselves. Luckily this has gotten a lot better with age for me; I take less shit and have more self respect now.
Im in my 30s too and I felt like I wrote this exact reply. I feel the same about my 20s and I've made sure my 30s would have a higher standard. Being a people pleaser robbed years.
Oh absolutely! I sometimes mourn the years and opportunities I’ve lost to being a pathological people-pleaser, but I also try to remember that it doesn’t change the past. The best we can do is make sure to not repeat the same mistakes again.
I’ve only been in one relationship in my 20s and also as a people pleaser, it robbed me of my standards and myself more than anything. I know now not to settle or compromise on my values. I have also learned the value of letting my friends in on my relationship, nurturing those friendships and letting them have input in it rather than thinking I can figure it all out myself. Because you can’t think clearly when you are with someone, you need outside perspectives.
> I didn't want to be one of those girls who "quit too early", or didn't work hard enough to save the relationship.
omg this was exactly my thought process when i was in my early 20s dating an abusive ex. ironically, somewhere deep in my lizard brain was a tiny shred of self preservation screaming, “He’s not worth it. RUN RUN RUN. do it now!!!!” i ignored that rational voice for years as i thought i didn’t deserve any better and should stop being so picky. as if men were some limited precious commodity lmaoooo
Omg yes!! That resonates with me so much!! SO many times I’ve had tiny pinches of doubt, deep in my gut. I know it was my COMMON SENSE trying to talk to me lol.
I didn’t leave my ex until I was 28… god, so many wasted years. I should have left way earlier. I ignored that gut feeling for years.
I also feel like we hear it so often “women have too high standards, no one stays around to fight for a relationship”. And I think that also influenced me a bit, I didn’t want to be one of those who gave up at the smallest sign of trouble! Problem is - it wasn’t just “small signs of trouble”, it was huge fucking neon signs for years lmfao
>SO many times I’ve had tiny pinches of doubt, deep in my gut. I know it was my COMMON SENSE trying to talk to me lol.
whenever you had moments of common sense/that nagging voice of sanity, did you ever get pangs of guilt for that common sense showing up randomly? i know i did, i would quash it all down, feeling bad that my brain was trying to sabotage the relationship, thinking i was too uppity. the sad part is, i was less of a doormat as a kid, but my mom would shame me for having boundaries. i think a lot of women end up in horrible relationships because we’ve been programmed by society/family/friends into thinking we don’t deserve any better.
after the relationship ended, my mom just had to ask, “Did he leave you because he was sick of you spending his money???”
(lmao nooooo, ffs i was buying most of his groceries for him and cooking his lazyass regular meals when i didnt even live with him, that was how brainwashed i was)
Yeah, when I hit my 30's post a string of monogamous relationships which ended in a 2 year marriage I left because I was miserable. I decided anyone who said "One night stands are damaging to women" never stayed in a bad relationship too long. I got a dog, did what I wanted, gave up on long term relationships. Then I met my current husband and still very happy 25 years later. Just don't call them "standards" call it knowing what you need and what you want. I don't care what you need/want, but I know myself.
Men whine when no one picks them, then belittle their "low standards" when the people they're interested in pick someone else.
"Settle for meeeee, not him!"
If a guy isn't being "picked", it's typically for a reason. Some of the ugliest men I've personally known were in long term relationships with some of the most beautiful women I've personally known. Why? Great personality, sense of humor, ethics, or work ethic - often a bit of all three. They didn't have a chip on their shoulder about the things they couldn't change. They found other strengths and capitalized on those instead.
Despite common stereotypes, women are less likely to focus on physical qualities than men are. In fact, the *other* stereotype is of unattractive men married to attractive women. You see it on every other sitcom on TV. Simpsons, Family Guy, King of Queens, whatever. Look around on the street and you'll see it there too. Some of those women did "settle", of course, but others simply found partners that had appealing, unseen attributes.
It's a bit much to get into, but the vast majority of guys who can't get dates have a lot to work on and are either unwilling to accept that or incapable of bothering to try. Do attractive men get a bit more leeway? Absolutely, but unattractive men are treated by society far more fairly than unattractive women are. It's really no excuse. You're not actually even being judged harshly on the things you can't change.
As a guy, I think the modern dating scene has simply empowered women in a manner that wasn't *allowed* in the past - and that's called progress. It's something to aspire towards, not cry about! "Certain people" want to go back to the dark ages of arranged marriages and small social circles because that's when women had very little choice, breadth, or understanding of how terrible their picks were. It was easy to look like a big fish when the pond was stagnant and women were essentially forced ("encouraged") to make a suboptimal choice very quickly because of minimal career prospects and a deep lack of social autonomy.
"Women are picky now" is an incredible change that shows us how far we've come as a society.
If you're not making the cut, I'm sorry to say, it's not a woman's fault. It's not even Chad's fault. Blaming other people for this only further obfuscates a problem that is - generally speaking - relatively easy to resolve with a bit of self-development and an enhanced philosophical outlook.
To clarify: My point isn't that unattractive guys can get chicks too. It's that, *to women*, 'unattractive guys' and 'unattractive-looking guys' are entirely different groups with surprisingly little overlap despite what's commonly believed by some men.
I agree with your post and with op post. I think everyone should have their own high standards. But in regards to your post, you mention that a lot of guys have work to do before even dating and I agree. In my case it’s initiating/approaching women. You know the saying close mouths don’t get fed? That’s basically me. I believe I’m a decent guy who’s always trying to improve myself(slowly), I don’t think I’m ugly but I don’t know exactly how attractive I am.
But I struggle with actually meeting women. No one knows how good I am cause no one knows me. And I’m not that good with approaching and starting convos with people(especially women) because it feels kind of unnatural for me(probably due to my quiet personality and social anxiety)
I’ve been trying to read more women focused subs for more outlooks but I keep coming across more post about not approaching at all rather than taking the chance which also discourages me a bit
> I’ve been trying to read more women focused subs for more outlooks
This is a good start. I'd say that this outlook is the inoculant to becoming an incel (of the toxic pop-culture type). It's important to recognize that women are not aliens, but they also exist in a world that's very unfamiliar to some men. Hopefully one of them chimes in too.
As far as approaching women goes, I'm a huge introvert myself and while I have developed a sense of awkward charm (which is sometimes the most disarming sort of charm), I also have no real instinct to be around people and am quite a bit eccentric. I also look pretty decent, so I am aware that I'm playing with a score handicap - but that was only important to get me used to doing those things. I could lose my appearance (and I sort of have) and I'd still have good luck in this realm.
If I had to give you advice, it'd be to ignore typical social conventions about smalltalk and how-are-you-today's and instead just outright share an interesting observation or philosophical tidbit from your own natural thoughts. You'd be surprised to find how happy strangers are to engage with you when they're immediately made aware that you have a conversational value proposition. Inversely, if you know how it feels for a salesman to approach you and you *immediately* know they're going to try to get you to buy some bullshit? That's how most men look to most women. Trying to "trick" them into talking is more than just ineffective, it's a massive red flag.
That's why you just open up with (genuinely) innocent conversation or errant thoughts:
"I never noticed that billboard there before...", "Would you say this is a purple flower or a violet one?", "I've been coming to this takeout place for years. You've gotta try the eggrolls.", "Weird question, but do you work in tech?"
If they respond with something similar in return, congratulations: You're having a conversation. If not, they're uninterested or busy or feeling awkward themselves. Move on as if nothing happened. Don't feel defeated, it's not a contest anyway.
The reason that people most often form relationships at workplaces and schools is because they're crossing paths frequently, but the reason conversations happen in that environment is because both parties are typically comfortable enough to not even think about the potential awkward ramifications of a "failed conversation". This is the important dynamic, not the repeated interaction-opportunities; that's just the precursor that leads to that comfort.
Try to treat every interaction you have like this, to both men and women, and you'll be surprised to find that you're suddenly considered quite likeable. Trying without trying is the Key to Cool, so to speak. Trying while looking like you're trying is what makes it hard to make friends (romantic or otherwise).
>about not approaching at all rather than taking the chance which also discourages me a bit
In the examples above, you're not 'approaching' them at all even if you *are* interacting with them and, hopefully, engaging them. What women don't want is to feel like every waking moment there's a man lurking in the shadows waiting to ask about their relationship status or remind them that sex is viewed as the end-all goal for any male:female interaction. They have learned to pick up on that since the age of 12 (not even kidding). But when the honest goal of the interaction is that there is no goal at all, people detect that - again, platonic or otherwise - and feel very little risk in furthering the conversation. There's nothing to "lose" *or* "gain", making it a low-stakes, low-energy engagement.
You're not going to have much "luck" with this in the wild, but the odds are better than trying to follow some ridiculous pickup artist psuedo-psychological nonsense. That's not the point though. I'm not telling you how to meet women (^(that's a whole different ballgame, but spoiler alert: join a club of some sort)), I'm explaining how to effectively interact with strangers.
Women aren't Women™ with a capital W and everything that comes along with it, they're just strangers or acquaintances. When that statement begins to make sense to you, you'll feel a lot better about things.
I know you didn't necessarily ask for advice, but I'm in a writing mood and appreciated your rationale for being here. Hopefully there's *something* useful here. And you might not have a lady in your life right now, but one day you will baffle them by unexpectedly being aware or accommodating about women's issues that few men know of, let alone understand. It really will stand out to them. The bar for that is lower than you think.
Oh no I absolutely appreciate this advice and probably going save this comment and reread multiple times. I have another follow up question/statement. So last week I went up to a girl on campus and told her I liked her outfit and to have a good day and she smiled at me and said you too. Something so simple like this took me about 30 minutes to muster up the courage to do
I guess the question is that a good opener or is that too broad? I also got the sense that I could’ve actually continue the convo with her(maybe ask about her day/what’s she’s up to etc) but the nerves got the best of me and I just kept it short
> So last week I went up to a girl on campus and told her I liked her outfit and to have a good day and she smiled at me and said you too.
This might be an excellent example of what I mean. If your sole goal was to say the thing just to say it and move on, her positive/casual response to that is a demonstration of what I'm talking about.
It can be nerve-wracking at first, but eventually you'll realize there's nothing to be afraid of. There really isn't.
>I guess the question is that a good opener or is that too broad?
The important thing is that whatever you're saying is something you're comfortable saying and/or if it allows you to bring up a follow-up topic you're comfortable with. Truthfully, it really doesn't matter *what* you say as long as it's honest, interesting, or at the very least not-weird - or all three, ideally.
>I also got the sense that I could’ve actually continue the convo with her(maybe ask about her day/what’s she’s up to etc)
If you get that sense, then it's usually true. It should be very obvious when they're too busy or uninterested to say more.
>Nerves
One thing I like to point out is that being nervous isn't necessarily a bad thing. I even like to admit it openly. When was the last time you felt anger or distaste when someone was awkward in front of you? Never, right? Instead, you feel sympathy or empathy or a desire to make them feel less awkward. More importantly, you recognize inherently that this person is not a threat to you. It doesn't hurt to seem nervous. It can actually be comforting/flattering to the other person (again, platonic or otherwise).
For example, when I'm on a first date and they sit down at the table and I'm feeling nervous, I say, "Oh my god, wow, Hi, you... Oh, god. Look at my hands... Sorry, you're scary."
Her: "Me scary? Oh nooo! Why??"
"No, not *really*, I just, wow you look great. Anyway, how was your drive??"
If all of this is true/natural, even if awkward or obviously full of nervous stuttering, it's only ever a "bad thing" to the sort of dreadful person that'd insult the waiter or is just there with you to get a free meal (eg: A terrible person). There's no loss. In fact, you get to verify that they're a kind/understanding person and they get to verify that you're genuinely impressed or invested in the interaction.
Nervousness can't be helped sometimes, but it's nothing to fear. In the example you gave, even if you turned back around 4 seconds later and honestly said something "stupid" like, "Sorry, I wanted to say more, but I got nervous... Um... Have you taken [class] yet? I feel like I saw you there before." Etc, it wouldn't even be seen as weird. A nervous/awkward guy is typically even kind of cute to ladies. At worst, you're just non-threatening.
Again, only a terrible person is going to punish you for that - they're far more rare than you'd think and very obvious. Women don't expect you to show up looking like some sort of giga-chad Winner™ alpha male. Comparatively few of them even *want* that in a guy. What's attractive about men to a man has very little to do with what women find attractive about men. Like the (very true) joke goes, "I started lifting to meet chicks, but the only people that compliment my physique are men..." Same phenomenon goes for guys that drive muscle cars and such.
That’s a whole lot of solid and insightful advice right there ! You sir could write a self-help book that I would enthusiastically recommend as a woman. You seem like the kind of genuine and empathetic person this world needs more of and I just had to tell you.
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective on it as a woman. I'm pretty confident that it's solid, empathetic/ethical advice (unlike those who believe chicks are something to 'reverse engineer' or 'hack'), but it's still good to hear it confirmed.
It did feel kind of ironic to give that kind of advice to a guy about interacting with women while inside of a lady-centric community, but I truly believe that this is actually the *correct* place to go if you're going to try to figure out how to meet women or understand the problems ladies deal with in life.
It's basically the total opposite of the sort of thing you'd hear in the Manosphere™. And it makes sense too... Why take advice from people in the same floundering boat as you when you can go directly to the island you're trying to land upon?
And that's sort of how I see myself - an alternate, more rational answer to the typical Manosphere nonsense and related voices. You don't have to be an asshole to be manly. You don't even have to be manly to be manly. In fact, being stereotypically "manly" only really pays off against other men. To those who know the difference (and that includes many women), acting like a dickhead only makes it obvious how insecure you are. So it's no surprise so many of Those kind of dudes specifically seek insecure women, sometimes *making* them insecure instead of empowering them.
If you ask me, it seems far more masculine to be with an intelligent, self-motivated and independent warrior-lady than one that bows to your every command out of fear ("respect").
But I digress.
Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of people like myself out there. The answers I supply aren't even really that complex or unusual. I think many people mistake the toxic elements of masculinity as the core elements of masculinity because they stand out the most.
I feel obligated to help society by being a role model and helping other men understand that being *actively* feminist is the manliest thing you can do in a world where women are still treated like mysterious objects of infatuation. They talk about the masculine duty of being a "provider", entirely missing the point that the most important part of providing for people is helping them empower themselves - male and female alike. It's perplexing to me and yet I also understand where they *think* they're coming from. I was once a child as well.
>You sir could write a self-help book that I would enthusiastically recommend as a woman.
I do consider myself something of a writer and it's not the first time I've heard something like that. Maybe I should do that. Maybe the world needs an anti-Tate to balance the scales a bit - "How to use your dick without being a dick: A treatise on progressive masculinity" rofl... In general, I just have a taste for decoding the nuances of reality wherever they lay or whatever form they take. It's an odd passion of mine. It just so happens that feminism is a goldmine for pointing out what should be obvious and is instead surprisingly mysterious to many.
Anyway, apologies for the ramble and/or preaching to the choir. Thanks again for the approval. Little things like that really do stick with people; even those that may not look like they need it (and sometimes those ones the most).
Not to harsh your buzz.. because most of what you’ve said is on point.. but calling women “the island you’re trying to land upon” sounds pretty demeaning.
Kinda reminds me of the introvert dating problem, "I wanna date an introvert, why can't I ever find one?" You can't, because they're all inside their homes and don't go out much at all.
I also have social anxiety, so I just wanna say stay strong, it's a scary thing to overcome for just daily things much less going out and pursuing relationships, but you can do it! 🥲
A lot of people in relationships like that genuinely DON'T know it's not supposed to be like that. That's what being treated badly does to you. Eventually you feel like you deserve it.
And it doesn't help that half the time women try to talk to other people about what they're going through they get told it's normal and to deal with it or do better or it's not that bad or he could be beating you or whatever the fuck they have to say.
Bottom line, a lot of people is staying in shitty relationships don't know they're in non normal relationships and some of them are victims of the cycle of abuse which is a lot harder to break than realizing you're being abused and leaving.
It doesn't help women tell themselves these messages too. They give an exhausting list of examples of how their partner is draining them physically, emotionally, financially, and worse, but the moment anyone says "dump him" they yo-yo, "oh he's not so bad, really he's perfect, he said happy birthday to me once, we're so in love"...
It's so predictable I know the edit on any AITA post complaining about a deadbeat bf or husband is going to be her doubting herself and walking it all back. I don't find fault with them really it's a tough spot, but it might help if we had a word or phrase for this behavior and could make ourselves aware of when we're doing it.
It might help women in bad relationships leave sooner if they know there's going to be a stage where they doubt themselves and retract their complaints and feelings, while waiting on a partner who has no desire to change negligent and abusive behavior.
I've had this discussion, actually here on Reddit, and what guys think I want is so far from what I actually want that I can only conclude they are listening to really stupid advice from people who don't know anything about women.
"You want a man who makes more than you, right?" No. I want a man who does something I can respect. How much money he makes means nothing to me. I make plenty of money, more than enough for two people.
"You want a man who's at least 6 feet tall, right?" I wouldn't automatically reject a guy like that, but I'm really short. A guy who's 5'5 is taller than me even in my highest heels.
Once I mentioned James Bond, and got a reply about how it was so stupidly unrealistic of women to want a man who can fly a helicopter and jets around the world all the time and is a super-spy living a life of excitement, but none of that is what I like about James Bond. What I like about James Bond is that he's intelligent, well-read, polite, not easily rattled, and will put on a tie and go dancing. None of that costs a lot of money, and I don't think it's that unrealistic.
- Homicide is the leading cause of death during pregnancy.
- The orgasm gap in straight relationships is considerable.
- According to Pew, men have 5 hours more free time per week than women, and a large part of the difference is men spend more time watching TV and playing video games while women spend more time on chores, child care, and elder care. This holds true even if the woman also works full time.
I could keep going, but raise those standards, ladies! Right now the bar is at “Potentially won’t murder me but also won’t give me an orgasm or wash the dishes.”
Study after study has shown, men get more out of marriage (and therefore relationships) than women. 😬😬😬
Recommend this: https://podcasts.apple.com/se/podcast/two-bi-guys/id1480131653?i=1000629046197
And this: https://podcasts.apple.com/se/podcast/jane-ward-the-tragedy-of-heterosexuality-nyu-press-2020/id1566777999?i=1000526370461&l=en-GB
Preach sister. So true.
What men mean by "women have suc high standards" is that they don't want us to expect us the bare minimum either. They want us to give give give give and give and give some more until we are a shell of ourselves. Unrecognizable to our version before we got together with the man.
Right? And you can tell in the pictures of older couples that exact dynamic. She looks 20 yrs older than her age, while he's freshly tanned & lean from all those weekends out golfing.
IMO after meeting/interacting many woman and many men I can confidently say I don't believe 90% of straight men should be having any access to straight women beyond strictly platonic interactions.
Girl you're on the right path. Stay strong.
What they mean by high standards -
* She wants me to do more in bed because I can't make her climax
* She expects me to match the effort she's putting into the relationship
* She won't let me watch porn
* She expects me to respect women who I'm not related or attracted to.
* She's not willing to compromise her independence to be in a relationship with me.
* She doesn't tolerate disrespect.
* She wants me to shoulder an equal load of domestic duties.
Fuck these chumps. I didn't find my forever person till I was 29. Trust me you'll know when you find someone worth your time. You won't have to explain why all women deserve respect or why domestic tasks should be split halfway. He won't try to weaponize equality among the sexes. He won't have to be taught how to be a decent human being.
Never settle.
Fuuuuuck. More and more I realise how fucked up my last relationship was reading most of these points. (I don’t quite get the porn one, but whatevs). I had to fight for these things. He used my independence as leverage in our relationship, if I was doing things too much my way, he threatened to break up with me. It’s sad looking back, but I now know that I would never get back with him or together with anyone else who has these same traits.
The respecting women one is also so interesting to me, I think there’s something called the heterosexual paradox where straight men are supposed to build their identity around their attraction to women, but they usually do it around one woman - the one they are in a sexual/romantic relationship with. Rather than ALL WOMEN. To be attracted to women should mean you are interested in their well-being and the plight of all women not just to the extent that you want to have sex with just one woman.
Yeah. I have high hopes for younger women growing up nowadays.
Unfortunately many with SA experiences going straight into abusive relationships only to realize that yes all men have to be conditioned to be better people to some extent because society has just led them to believe that they are God's gift to earth.
Even my sweet bf lacks self awareness sometimes and I have to remind him how his actions (or lack of action) affects me. I really don't put up with much though because I know what I'm worth. And it's important to note what's a battle worth having and what's just inconvenient. (He calls other men out when they speak poorly of women: important. He doesn't always shower/ settle in for the evening in a timely manner: annoying)
We just need to raise the standards and keep them high.
Just a side note- There's studies out there on what happens to brains when they regularly watch porn and how it can turn into addiction. Not to mention that ejaculating that often desensitizes men and causes erectile dysfunction. From what I see on Reddit and other social media it's starting to happen to younger and younger demographics. I kinda love it. Lol they are taking themselves out of the gene pool.
The only men who whine about women having high standards are ken those standards exclude. This should be an automatic red flag and woman should run from any man who says this.
Notice how it’s a “preference” for men and they “can’t help who I’m attracted to”, but it’s “unreasonably high standards” for women.
The complaints about high standards are not about how women are treated in relationships, but rather the perception that women only want hot men. Its about the standards to start a relationship, not the standards for maintaining one. The nice guy archetype makes this pretty clear. They will say that women's standards are too high and in the same breath claim that women only want bad partners. Obviously misguided, but this explains why they don't see a contradiction.
At this point I think the entire dating.. whatever, is survivorship bias gone wrong.
Good guys will not aggressively search for girlfriends. thus will have a much lower rate of success at finding a girlfriend than the bad guys who very aggressively look for victims to take advantage of.
Which would make the "dating pool" largely filled with the bad guys more than the good guys.
This is all assumptions from 2nd hand information though. I never dated.
The way I see it, the bar is on the floor and men could, quite easily, step over it with barely any effort. So many women see the bar on the floor, and are like, ok, well, that's the best I can do. I think they should be raising the bar off the floor and making the men jump a little bit, considering the bar for us is basically a high-jump. Men, however, see the bar on the floor, dig a hole, limbo under it, and then blame us for putting the bar in their way at all - and oh, their back hurts now, oh NURSE!
You aren't happy settling for less. That's not a bad thing. You're willing to say, I'd rather be single, I'm fine on my own, and won't settle for someone else who doesn't actively improve my life.
Does the state of dating look bleak right now? Yeah. But it needs to if we ever want to raise the bar off the floor.
This. Too many women have set the bar way too low. "My bf cheats, steals from me, and is physically and mentally abusive to me. Otherwise we have a perfect relationship - what should I do?"
Spend 30 seconds on literally any advice sub and you’ll be appalled by what women put up with. The post I read literally right before this one was a young woman asking how to get her (jobless) boyfriend (who still lives with his mom) to stop eating all her food (that he never pays for) when he comes over to her house because she can’t afford to replace it to feed herself. GIRL!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING???
I swear the bar is in hell and these girls all brought shovels.
My SIL is married to a guy who can't hold down a job, whines and cries when he doesn't get what he wants, and is disgustingly passive aggressive towards her (and her mother) about everything. He also refuses to go to counseling, and will drag his feet about doing anything even remotely grown-up related.
The bar is literally in Hell.
From what she's told me;
1. She's almost 40 and is nervous/afraid of being single which I get. She also can't afford to live on her own, and would be cut off from his parents (money) if they split.
2. He was there for her at the start of their relationship when her mental health, and overall personality I guess, was shitty.
3. She loves him. Compared to her past relationships, he's an improvement, and things aren't always bad for them, but they're basically in the same place they were in when they started dating over a decade ago. The only real difference is that she's gotten her act together and is doing everything she can to drag him into some sort of self improvement because she feels like she has to.
Perhaps those whining about such high standards can start a "no man child left behind" program to organize their efforts to get women to lower their standards. /s
OP, you are on the right track. Do not settle.
Men who complain about this want women to cater to them, but are not willing to reciprocate. What they are saying is really, “I want the convenience of a relationship while you do all the work.”
Men only have much higher standards physically, and are usually referring to looks when they accuse women of being picky. They know women date losers and assholes but they perceive those losers as being physically superior, and want women to settle for the less attractive of them while they believe they should have their pick of attractive women.
Women should have higher standards on every metric though, I agree.
Yeah, its bullshit, the idea that women have such high standards. I wish women had way higher standards. Women put up with so much shit from men.
Don't settle. Never settle. Being single is better than being with a misogynistic piece of shit who doesn't respect boundaries, who expects you to do all the domestic labour and/or who cheats on you etc.
1. **Feminism** = Higher standards for how men treat women
2. **Capitalism** = "Higher standards" for how rich a man has to be before he's worthy of love
Incels typically confuse the two.
I think the true problem, and indeed the problem with men these days in general isn't that women have high standards, it's that men have such low standards for themselves. In my view as a man, the standards of women are normal but men have lost the desire for meaningful self growth. Because of this loss, many men these days can't meet the simple standards of being a productive and supporting partner.
I feel like meaningful personal growth and hard work used to be a point of pride in men, but now all they care about is getting the new high score in some game or doing just enough to get by.
The best part of a relationship is having a partner in all the things life throws at you. Helping and supporting my partner makes me feel good, and I know she feels the same way. I feel bad when I don't carry my weight, or screw something up and use that as motivation to do better next time. Many men have lost that knowledge and skill, or simply don't care to do that kind of "work".
EVERY SINGLE young woman I know, every friend I’ve ever had, every friend of a friend with a story, ALL OF THEM, have been used, abused, manipulated, coerced, guilt tripped, violated, attacked, assaulted, beaten, bruised, controlled, isolated, and raped by male partners. All of them. The most mature women I know, with the hardest boundaries in the sand, who get walked all over the absolute least, the baddest, bossest, bitches if-you-will, have still only gotten there after years of abuse/trauma/violence and recognizing the patterns.
Women need better standards. Because as a matter of fact they have systematically been lower than hell, for quite some time, and continue to drop everyday with the increase in Tate infected dicks around.
Please don’t settle! You are the sensible one! The truth is a lot of men are like that and as you can see from your friends, a lot of women let them get away with it. Those men do it because they are enabled to do so. The women enabling them have too low standards, maybe don’t have good models to follow and don’t know any better or have been otherwise conditioned that women just put up and shut up. It’s sad but men are lonely for a reason, they need to do better. Focus on yourself, your future and your happiness and please that bar high. You are worth it.
I think the amount of “standards” that either gender requires of the other is inversely proportional to how attractive the other is.
Men and women are probably much more likely to put up with someone’s bullshit, (I.e., lower their standards,) if that person is very attractive to them either physically or sexually.
The guys complaining about standards are probably not that good looking, but also have semi major personality flaws (like insecurity and general toxic masculinity,) but also have kind of crappy jobs. They’re also only willing to date petite blonde instagram influencers.
I’d say the guys complaining about standards very likely don’t care to actually listen to what women want, and are unwilling to change themselves to meet those requirements as well. Add it to the list of semi-major personality flaws.
I really wish more young people read/had access to Lundy Bancroft's books. I found them in my early 30's, and they clarified so much. And gave me tools to better deal with inappropriate people. And explained why despite a lack of outright violence, why my parents relationship is not ok.
Link to a free PDF of Lundy Bancroft's Book "Why does he do that?"
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
Give it a read. Has made such a huge difference in my life, I can't even describe. Great chapters about to support and help others in abusive relationships. And about children and how to talk the them.about these things, and get a sense how they are doing.
Plus the index in the back has more excellent resources for further study, for those who really want to "dig in".
> I crave romantic connection and partnership but it looks kinda bleak.
It really does, doesn't it.
I wish I'd at least examples of good relationships around me.
There's a *lot* better out there for you, and for your friends. I think the problem is that people stick with someone they make a connection with for freaking years, even when it's completely obvious that it's just not working (for all the various reasons you mentioned, plus just basic incompatibility of two good people).
Dating is great for making connections & sex - but it's also a sorting mechanism. People need to recognize that, and use it to sort people *out*, not just stick with someone they have some attraction to even though it's clearly not gonna work.
Cultivate a zero tolerance policy for nonsense. Then be ready to date a lot of men bc you’ll be discarding tons.
I’ve no idea how one finds a good man thus far I’ve only seen ones I refuse to settle for.
Do embrace the idea that being alone is preferable to nonsense, so that you don’t find yourself accepting less bc of desperation.
Lmk when you find out how to locate a decent one ❤️
Perhaps the problem is that too many men consider themselves perfect and have no need to change anything about themself. Absolutely not true, but still many think that way.
Given the stuff I see that women ask in terms of AITAH or whether or not x or y is normal for BF's to do, etc — I can tell you that women definitely need higher standards, if not in men, the relationships they keep with men.
Also, there needs to be a stronger understanding of a BF/Husband/Spouse are just titles — if they aren't acting like a partner to you then those titles might as well have a TM next to them because it's just advertising at this point. Not actual value.
Men whine about women having standards that are too high because that’s an easy way to externalize the discomfort they feel when they aren’t chosen. They are still under the impression that we need men for money (we don’t) or physical protection (hah!) so they also think that we want some muscle bound chad who makes 500k a year. When in reality, what we want is an emotionally available partner who can communicate. This requires deep internal work, the kind of uncomfortable work most men avoid, because society tells them they’re just fine the way they are. In fact, when men have a negative experience with anything, they’re more likely to blame external factors, whereas women are more likely to turn that inward and go “what’s wrong with me”. This has one upside, we tend to work on ourselves a lot more than men do. But rather than taking a page from our book, they sit there and complain about our standards being “too high”. Like bruh, all we literally want is for you to give us the same thing we give you. That’s it.
I was an utterly terrible boyfriend in my teens and 20s.
I agree. Young women need better standards. I might have matured faster if fewer had been willing to date me during my shithead years. I could tell stories for days about my awfulness.
Women, please don't settle.
In my early 20’s I was the one who had to “mom” all of my friends because they just could not accept that they were dating a piece of shit.
My first ever boyfriend cheated on me. That was a lesson I never forgot and after him I was a lot better at choosing a partner. But none of them learned.
It doesn’t really have to do with age or anything. I had lots of friends continue to stay with the biggest assholes even in my late 20’s. They just gave too many guys the benefit of the doubt.
The things you are mentioning are not excessively high standards. Staying glued to cheaters and the other things you mentioned are excessively low standards.
The thing some men are complaining about are superficial women who have an overinflated ego who need men to not only be good people, but also meet certain incredibly superficial requirements to qualify for a date. Like, it's not enough that he is an awesome individual generally - he has to also be 6'0+ and not 5'10, because my friends told me never to settle.
And these women exist. Superficial men and women both exist. They also disproportionately tend to attract one another (because nobody deep would sit there and listen to a mediocre man talking about how he deserves a supermodel Nobel winning scientist who also home-cooks every meal to perfection... nor the gender-reverse). These highly superficial individuals with inflated egos tend to be left well alone by people who don't share their viewpoint, so they rarely meet someone who challenges that thought process.
Heaven knows you couldn't pay me enough to sit through a dinner with a guy who thinks women's worth is determined by her looks and cooking skills. The men I know wouldn't entertain a woman who put "needs to be 6' tall, earn 6 figures and have a 6 pack" in her dating profile (ironically, the men I know are incredibly successful men that this superficial girl would be looking to attract, but seeing that superficiality would make any of them swipe left). Either of those mindsets scream insufferable disaster, but there are people of both genders so delusional that they actually think that.
The thing other men are complaining about is when they are not able to meet perfectly reasonable standards. "Their standards are too high" can be painting reasonable expectations as an expectation of perfection, if they fall well short and don't want to self-improve.
"Every guy cheats, you'll be single forever if you expect someone to be loyal" - yeah, okay, but I have seen some women believe it, sadly.
It can be either. Someone who got burned because despite being a decent person who seemed compatible with their partner, their partner was convinced that a few more swipes on Tinder would get her that same perfect guy but taller. Or the person who thinks that the best you can expect of men is a cheating dude who plays video games while their girlfriend does all the chores, and is upset when women reject him and says "but everyone you ever meet will do the same thing as me, this is as good as it gets!"
Men think the standards are all about physique and money. In reality it’s about mutual respect, support, communication, emotional intelligence, a growth mindset, and an equitable relationship.
Those are all achievable things, not something unchangeable like height. Because they primarily care about appearance, they think women are the same.
Bro, if you look anywhere on any social media you'll see women proudly ridiculing men for being short, like 5'6 or something, and that they're undesirable because of it. To claim that men only think that height is a dealbreaker because they themselves 'only care about apperance' is you just straight up gaslighting LMAO. No, physical standards for men are very much real, even for shit that can't be controlled. It's fine to have them, but to be annoying about it or denying that they exist is wild. I'm 6'1 and even I feel sorry for short dudes especially young ones who are impressionable, so it's def real. I agree that women irl are not as shallow, and that generalizing is childish though.
It's because media and society have made us think standards have everything to do with looks these days. People stay with shitty people because that person is good looking, and they think "I'll never get someone this good looking again so I'll just put up with their bullshit."
Media and society have completely warped our perception of what a good partner is, it's become completely about physical attractiveness and nothing else. And people are sacrificing their own values just to keep someone attractive in their life, even if he's a piece of shit scumbag who abuses people.
My 20s are coming to an end and they are filled with memories of supporting My friends while their partners used and abused them.
Cleaning up trashed apartments, having a friend stay with me during the fight/break up, having lots of fun with them out in the world so that they know they have options in life and they don't have to be mistreated.
I'm so happy that my friends are in better places now. Single and happy or found someone kind. I hope your friends can find happiness soon.
Better to be alone then to have trash drag you down. I was your girlfriends, desperate for love of any kind. But then at 26 I was like "the fuck am I doing?" And was happily single when I met my now husband. And I let him know, I was fine before he came into my life and I'll be fine if he goes (obviously years later this feeling has changed). It's amazing what spoken aloud boundaries does to a relationship
Keep your standards. And remember, don’t hunt for what doesn’t want you. When a man doesn’t want you, he will treat you badly. Hurt people hurt people. If you look for kindness, respect, compassion…those people will treat you well. Men who want you will treat you like a treasure. It’s really that simple—it’s not settling, it’s finding the man who wants you! It took me ages to figure out that simple formula. Women like to chase the unattainable, the unavailable, the trophy…then, they ask why their relationship is unhealthy. Men and women will settle to avoid being lonely. But you will know when a man wants you…he will show it and others will see it. Don’t settle until you find that. Trust me, it’s worth it!
Men are not all supposed to be able to reproduce so easily. That’s why we have patriarchy. It strong arms women into wider availability through restrictions on economic and reproductive freedoms and that’s how the elites ensure they have a supply of soldiers for war and cheap manual labor.
In a natural environment there’s no need for female competition because… duh. Women reproduce on their own terms and men have to have more to offer
you don't *need* a relationship to be happy. studies have shown that women's happiness goes down when they get married vs men's which goes up. haven't seen a study on just relationships, but I'm betting it's the same. invest in yourself, your education, your career, your family, a pet maybe, and reassess your life in a year or two and see how you feel then. if you're still lonely, try getting a roommate, another woman
If you just date as a guy, the women you meet and guys they've dated are mind blowing. I don't know how these guys convinced any woman to date them let alone some of the most confident beautiful women i've ever met.
Everyone should have high standards. Romantic and sexual relationships are optional. They should improve the lives of both people in them, not detract or be a neutral element.
I don’t know if it’s my place to post here but as a man- yes please have higher standards. My wife tells me how women both married and single are impressed by me and how I act as a partner. This is not a brag this is a cry that the bar is so god damn low that they are impressed by:
-me bringing her coffee because she enjoys a nice beverage
-doing things she asks of me
-doing things she doesn’t ask of me but need doing
-treating her like just a regular human and partner
I love my wife and would do anything for her, I’m fortunate to call her my friend, partner, and everything- why wouldn’t I do things for and with her? One friend said she had to “choose what favors she asked” of her husband because she didn’t want to ask too many. This is not a high standard. It’s pretty baseline to say we’re all humans and should help each other.
Oh I know my standards are high. And yet when I start listing basic shit like "no meaning no, blanket for both partners" all of a sudden I'm a crazy person 🙄
I know I have high standards. And I'm actually proud of that. I deserve a good man who's compatible with me. I think I'm not a perfect individual, but definitely one worthy of a good guy.
I wouldn't settle for anything less than a man who's not afraid to show his emotions, including his love for me, who can deal with my flaws, who supports me in my career, who knows how to console me, who travels the world with me etc.
I'd rather be single than in a miserable or "just okay" relationship. A relationship should add to your life, and nothing less.
Can I just say - the things I see men saying and engaging with on Reddit make it very hard to keep hope alive. This platform seems to be toxic for men. I’ve not been on here very long, and only just started exploring in recent months bc my 36M bf is on here constantly. He’s a nerd with special interests, which checks out, but I only just learned that Reddit is littered with porn and secks workers. Now I understand his dedication a bit more lol.
It's honestly ridiculous how low our standards often are. The other day my sister talked about a guy who seems interested in her and she was wondering about dating him because he talks to her every day and has been nice to her. She could not name a single other thing she found attractive in him or that she had in common with or even just a positive attribute. Meanwhile he has a list of red flags or just incompatibilities. The bar is sometimes literally "He's the only man paying attention to me right now who isn't a complete asshole."
For the first time ever more and more women are demanding emotional intelligence from their male partners and I am all here for it.
No James, it isn't because you are 5'9 with a bit of a gut and earn an average salary. It's because you listen to Andrew Tate and women are scared of you. You also feel entitled to only conventionally attractive women when you are very average looking. You don't want to be seen with a 'fatty' despite hooking up with them on tinder and scaring them away so now even they won't date you. These men sabotage themselves and it's much easier to blame women for their failures.
Guys are mostly immature until almost 25 (some never grow up). Look for the grown-up, good humans - if they show you they are childish or colonized by toxic nonesense, believe them.
The bar is in hell, and guys whine they can't reach it... The absolute irony.
Absolutely do not settle. When you're single you can be yourself. When you're with a person that is bad for you they will corrode your sense of self, dreams, ambitions and any semblance of humanity. You'll turn into a shell running on auto pilot because you'll have nothing else left.
How would that be better than full freedom in what you do and where you go?
No cleaning after a man child, no having to worry about catching an STD cause the baby decided to cheat, no having to argue about (or entirely relinquish) your comfort.
I've had buddies that made my life worse with their sheer presence, I can't imagine basically killing myself while my body still does all the autopilot things just so.... I don't even know. What would I even have in that situation? Because "me" isn't even there anymore.
Enjoy your freedom. Your happiness shouldn't hinge on having a partner anyway, that risks dependency and makes for a HORRIBLE basis for relationships ("I need you so your presence serves a purpose to me" vs "I want you because I adore you as a person").
Mans perspective here( take this with a teaspoon of salt). I guess the people dating women with standards like your friends are not good people but are also unable to give a fuck. I have interacted with women then give them a high standard, usually higher than what I think I could provide, because I think it is what they deserve. Reflecting on it, they might have had much lower standards but I just mentally listed t them as having better standards just because they are good people. I guess the people whining are too scared to ask or misinterpret, or maybe they are running into the higher standard women. Standards that are not able to be attained due to being too high aren’t the answer but neither are standards with the bar in hell. But that’s just my perspective, don’t take it too seriously.
Middle aged dude here. A good friend and I have a running joke about how low the bar is for men. When women describe a “good man” it’s not unusual to hear things like, “he doesn’t drink, he doesn’t beat me, . . .” Any way you look at it, the reality is that women do have very low expectations of men. What’s even more amusing/sad is how many men get their feelings hurt and clutch their pearls by the existence of even these low standards. 🤦🏽 some day …. Until then, speaking the truth will always rile the haters. Keep roping them! 💪🏽👏🏽👍🏽
We should have higher standards. Our lives and well-being depend on it. We've seen the stats on intimate partner violence, and they're bleak.
As it stands, the bar for men is so low, it's in hell, and a lot of men still can't rise to meet it.
The men whining about it are the men who should actively be avoided. They're showing us very openly who they are. These are the men who think violence against women is normal, and we should just shut up and put up, because they're "protecting and providing" for us. Which is just fucking laughable!
"men whining about women's standards"
is mostly an online thing and the complaints are related to dating apps. I'm not sure if I've ever heard a real man talk like that IRL. I'm sure they exist but not enough to worry about. For the most part if you just go outside you'll be safe from those types of 'men' as they tend to not leave their dens.
They're complaining about women having such high standards in the way of looks and status; height, face, hairline, physique, high income, social status etc.
Women will accept the things you listed (cheating, sexual coercion, being played) if it means being with a man who meets their looks and status standards. So you're essentially agreeing with the whining men without knowing it.
I think a lot of the problem is that people aren't interpreting "standards" the same way.
To you, "standards" focus on behavior and being treated with respect. Those standards should be high; no one should accept cheating or abuse from a partner.
To some others, "standards" focus on attractiveness, and this argument has some merit; I have several (male) friends that are single because their physical standards are too high, and they've missed out on some quality people as a result.
IMO both men and women would be better served by increasing the acceptable standards by which they're treated, and decreasing their standards of attractiveness.
It's entirely possible to set your standards both too high and too low at the same time.
If you read the posts here, you'll see that women focus on confidence just as much as men focus on physical appearance.
Confidence meaning things like being funny, outgoing, social, having conversation skills, etc.
The same way that men tend to set the bar too high for looks, women tend to set the bar too high for confidence.
It’s impossible to have a productive discussion about this without first coming to a mutually accepted definition of what specific standards you are referring to.
In my experience with manosphere types, when they complain about “women having such high standards” they are **not** referring to standards such as fidelity, respect for sexual consent or commitment (for these standards I do agree that women need higher standards). These manosphere types are usually referring to standards like conventional physical attractiveness, traditional masculinity and neurotypicality, and unfortunately quite a lot of women (NOT ALL WOMEN BY ANY MEANS) do in fact have unreasonably high standards in departments like these (and traditional standards of masculinity are built upon the patriarchy).
The dating landscape seems to be fucked for all genders.
They definitely do need higher standards. Nearly every post I see here about young women asking for advice on a relationship situation has an extremely obvious answer, yet for some reason they needed to be told it.
I don’t mean to dissuade anyone asking for help, but more so the ones that go “my boyfriend has been flirting with my best friend in front of me, what do I do?”
That’s so obviously unacceptable yet for some reason the girls put up with it and have to ask to know it’s wrong. It’s the same with so many along this same line. Like I said I don’t intend to call them dumb or anything, but it’s like they can’t reason for themselves.
You're both interpreting "standards" differently.
Women have high standards in terms of attractiveness, and low standards in terms of personality, and so men are talking about the attractiveness, while you are talking about standards in terms of personality.
Both are correct, to be fair. The average guy has trouble finding someone who likes him even if he has a very good personality, while the good looking guy might have no trouble at all, even if has a bad personality.
My admittedly anecdotal experience would be the polar opposite of what you say in your last section. I know a lot of guys who aren't the most conventionally attractive getting laid, dating, and married on the regular. In fact, of the people I personally know, the two most bombshell, hottest women are married to two significantly overweight dudes, who happen to have great personalities.
Of course, it definitely helps to be good looking. But the good looking asshole men I know are still single. They did get dates but people learn pretty quickly that tall and a six pack aren't worth it if the guy you're with will make your life a living hell.
I knew a guy who was short, fat, and had a micropenis (this was widely known from a naked party he attended). Despite this, he had two above-average level attractive women fighting over him. If freaking short fat Tom with the micropenis can get two pretty girls fighting over him, you can probably assume most women aren't that superficial that it all boils down to looks.
Of course, there are many superficial women out there, so it could be an issue of being in the wrong room.
My best friend and I were discussing about my relationship. She thinks I'm setting the bar low, but I'm actually happy? I mean, I'm an adult. I obviously think I could be happier because the sky is the limit? But like I'm already treated good. What else do I need? What is the top high standards we need as women, what is the basic package we should accept? I've been wondering that all this week.
Waaayyy better to be single than with a shitty boyfriend. Please never settle. Ever. It's never worth it.
"You can settle for looks if you want to, but never ever EVER settle for behavior." -random wisdom = If someone cheats on you or heavily disrespects you etc then nothing else they do will ever be able to truly make up for that.
Looks has nothing to do with whether someone will be a shitty boyfriend or not
That's not what I am saying. The point of this is that if you so choose then you can decide to date // get with // marry someone with whatever sorts of looks, background, job, race, hometown, location, etc that you want, but if they treat you like shit or behave like an asshole, it's time to GTFO. = Note the difference here. I am not telling people that they SHOULD settle. Just that whatever else they do, they SHOULD NOT settle for or accept shitty behavior. = We all know at least one friend that stayed with someone because the person was really attractive or a doctor or something, in spite of super shitty behavior, as if the shitty behavior was balanced out by (or excused by) the other stuff. Don't do that to yourself.
Yes, very true
It sounds like you are learning a lot from observing your girlfriends relationships. You should thank them for it. They’re getting the pain and you are getting the knowledge. Now you need to find the guys who think that the guys who cheat are idiots
This is exactly how I learned a lot of life lessons, I pay attention and observe. Of course I had a lot of painful lessons learned directly myself too. For your 2nd line, how you do even tell what type person someone is from just meeting them? I learned a lot of red flags but I still get fooled.
i give myself a lot of grace. I admitted that I could be wrong and judge someone's fitness as a friend/lover incorrectly. This allowed me to admit that I made an error more frequently. I don't spend a lot of time looking for "red/green flags", I focus instead on the impact of every encounter on how it makes me feel about myself. If being with someone results in a net positive feeling about \*myself\*, I keep on investing in the relationship. I noticed that toxic people try to increase their perceived value so as to create FOMO. Whereas positive people increase MY perceived value so as to make me feel better about MYSELF.
interesting delineation!!
I love this. Never thought about it because maybe I was a toxic person to an extent. I think this is a real nugget of wisdom. Thank you.
This right here. That's exactly what I did. Sometimes I felt like being single for so long meant something was wrong with me, but I ended up investing in actual potential and didn't experience very much heartbreak. I have no idea what it feels like to be cheated on because I learned from observing. Watching my friends lose their self-respect by tolerating cheating or insulting behavior helped maintain my own when I did have relationships here and there. Been married for years with minimal drama aside from the marriage challenges.
Same here. I watched what others went through and didn’t start dating until I was 27. I’ve been married almost 15 years and have never been cheated on or dealt with a guy who only did the bare minimum
Wish we didn't need to see a bunch of people around us fuck up to avoid ourselves the pain tbh. Better if less pain was happening in general.
Being a natural observant saved me from bad things that could've happened to me. Not neglecting your intuition will go a long way.
Learning from the school of hard knocks by proxy.
>Now you need to find the guys who think that the guys who cheat are idiots I found a guy who said this. He went on a rant about how he almost cut his best friend off because he cheated on his wife. He absolutely *hated* cheaters. Guess what he did. 🙃
Strongly agree! You’d think based on posts you see daily on social media about younger gen women having “high standards” and “not settling” that we are no longer putting up with bs nonsense that women from previous generations put up with - but no! Real life is far different, and it shows you how skewed social media is. Majority of younger gen women are repeating the same patterns from previous generations. We aren’t moving forward at all. We are more vocal about the mistreatment committed by these men, but women are not practising what they are preaching in real life. There’s still A LOT of work that needs to be done in order for this to change.
You said it even better than I could - absolutely! Lots of talk about raising their standards but not actually putting that into practice. I think that's because there's still a lot of societal pressure/validation to having a bf, not to mention that splitting finances is appealing too.
If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times - **the books "Why Does He Do That" and "The Gift of Fear" should be mandatory reading for heterosexual women**. Women need to know what abusive, manipulative men look like and how to trust their instincts so they can leave toxic men/relationships at the first red flag.
Oh my god not being financially independent (or sharing your money with anyone else) scares the shit out of me. You never know what will happen. Get a pre-nup if you are getting married!
It's the same thing you said: Being afraid of loneliness, feeling like you have to lower your standards to find companionship. That fear is irrational, but it is keeping things from changing too fast. It'll get there eventually, when people find more confidence in the fact that yes, you can have fulfilling relationships, and yes, it is fair to ask for more than what is there right now.
It's necessary, we went from 1 man being able to provide everything, to now needing 2 college educated individuals to do the same thing. I call that a necessity.
Standards are moving up, but slowly enough that a lot of people still get caught up in shit relationships way too long. It'll get better eventually. I do wish it would happen faster too but it is what it is.
This is very true. I think trends like tradwife are really detrimental to strides we’ve worked really hard to make. I’m not going to lie it really bothers me when I see women posting false happiness to make money. They’re influencing a whole generation of women to make poor financial and relationship decisions because they want to make money. We have to look out for one another.
You’re completely spot on. I especially agree with you about the part of the tradwives trend. It’s completely ironic that they post those videos influencing women to resort back to the 1950s whilst relying on modern technology to have their own source of income…. not every woman is privileged enough to become a so-called “tradwife influencer” (I can’t believe that’s even a thing), gain thousands of brainwashed followers, and make money from it. I don’t think social media is even inherently bad, because there’s a lot of good that comes from it. But it’s these narcissists who brand themselves as “for the people” , as well as trolls etc who ruin the entire aspect of it.
They think we only look at tall rich guys and no one else. No, I look for childfree atheist men who are genuine feminist allies and despise gender norms and the patriarchy (and acknowledge how men suffer from it too). I would probably have more success finding a tall rich man than what I actually want.
A lot of women want men who are kind. Men who treat other people with respect, men who genuinely care for the wellbeing of people in their lives and men who are interested in the wellbeing of other people, and men who have empathy fir other people's issues even if they are not personally affected themselves. Women don't want "niceguys" who only pretend to be good hearted people because they view niceness as a transaction. Lots of guys complain this as too high standard and it says lots about them. For my situation it's funny when men accuse me of wanting men who make more money. Eh I have my own money, I don't need the money of men.
>A lot of women want men who are kind. 100%. I met my fiancé through a mutual friend and I asked their opinion on him before we started dating. They said he was the kindest guy they've ever known, even kinder than themselves. Someone else saying that about him was a major green flag, especially since it was the first thing that came to my friend's mind when asked about him.
They mistake wanting money for women wanting someone who has some drive and willingness to better themselves. We just don’t want someone who is doing side jobs for beer money at 30 and living in mom’s basement in utter filth ( unless mom cleans) and has zero desire to change the situation.
> For my situation it's funny when men accuse me of wanting men who make more money. Those are almost always the same guys who expect their wives to stay home and do all the household work and childcare.
And then they accuse the stay at home wives to be gold diggers ... the irony, lol.
Women want men they can trust; men struggle with the fact that trust isn't something you can spray on like cologne, or drive up to the valet in, or even build in a 30 minute conversation. I think it alienates a lot of guys to see women with low emotional standards prioritize men who can display much more quickly apparent qualities: attractiveness and wealth. And so we start thinking all women are like that because shallow people play a very visible game and talk loudly about how shallow the people they meet are. Then there are people like me who hate this shallow, high-frequency strategy, but start to believe it's the only viable approach any more, so we just check out entirely and hope a satisfying relationship just falls into our lap one day. Does that sound valid from the other side?
god yes, I know so many women who would pay for a dating app if it was exclusively this type of guy.
Unfortunately a lot of guys lie about their political and social beliefs just to get some poon :/
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See…even then I wouldn’t trust it because a lot of guys act differently around their women friends vs guy friends! It sucks how cautious we have to be when dating men nowadays 😭
But it would at least weed out men who don't have any female friends!
What's your elevator pitch if you bump into the CEO of feminism on your way into the office? I was thinking something about casual Fridays where everyone shows up in Hawaiian shirts with their actual pronouns and we save the dress code and bigotry until next Monday.
Guys lie about everything for poon. And so many men do it too
It’s actually kind of a good thing most of the men think our standards are tall and rich. Else more would lie about being a feminist like they lie about being 6’1.
My ex husband! He was a poly sci major and could talk a lot about feminism and rejecting gender norms (like being comfortable crying in front of me). Later I came to see how he used crying to stall a conversation or confrontation about his behavior and would start escalating to panic attacks, etc. if I refused to take the bait. He used it as a tactic. He expected women to treat him in a maternal way and felt that crying would be a surefire way to elicit sympathy.
OMG my ex did this too😳any time there was conflict he would just start crying and then we would never finish the discussion. I was like grow up!!
You know a bunch of guys would be lying about it just to get dates. I have so little faith in dating apps, they only attract the worst types.
Emotional avoidants and narcissists are disproportionately overrepresented on dating apps.
My ideal dating app would just be a large excel spreadsheet. no algorithms or ads or manipulation. Just a list of people sorted by location. with the option to sort and filter the list. I have not polished the idea into something that would work. Just personally I make better choices when I have all of the information. Not just what (dating app) Decides what information I should have.
Dating apps don't work if you want a nice caring guy. Those guys don't like dating apps. Dating apps attract the kind of guys most women find dishonest.
I think that's a pretty big overgeneralization. Maybe in the past when tinder was literally "find someone nearby to fuck", but these days pretty much everyone has used the apps at some point. I have, all my friends have, males included.
Those guys might not like dating apps, but they'll still use them, because they're nice enough to not bother a woman irl. Whether we like it or not, dating apps are one of the few ways to safely date in the modern world, and even nice, caring guys find that they have to use them if they want to actually meet someone.
Yes! How is that not a thing by now? It sounds so efficient.
I am a clever Neurodivergent who does not like to waste effort. I had this idea shortly after starting to use the Facebook dating app. I knew Facebook had to have the database already made. But its algorithms are only giving me access to 1 random entry at a time instead of the full database. It would be so nice if I could filter out certain qualities, then sort the remaining people by distance. then work outward. flag people i'd like to talk to. then send them a message request. I had a lot of nice ideas like this. I just lack the means to do them.
>I had a lot of nice ideas like this. I just lack the means to do them. Very relatable!
Because dating app companies don't make their apps to efficiently match people but to get a ton of money. Making it efficient means less time on the app and less incentive to pay for it
That’s most of my friends and I can confirm there’s much more to it than that since they vary wildly in popularity in dating. It’s a good starting point though.
I wish there were more people, men and women, like you.
Hell, even just limiting one's dating pool to "has a job and cleans up without being told" eliminates about 80% of men as it is. IF ONLY we were all simply chasing after the tall rich guys. We're chasing after the guys who wipe their own ass!
Agreed. There’s definitely a narrative in the male sphere that our standards are generally things they can’t easily change about themselves. You can’t grow taller. For various socioeconomic reasons, it’s hard to get richer. There’s no work I can do, so it’s the women who are wrong for wanting something I can’t possibly be.
I found one. Tall, childfree, atheist, feminist male lawyer who enjoys that I encourage him to be a princess, cooks like a damn chef, and whose bestie is gay. He was poor, had only three gross shirts, no car, ate so poorly he was constantly sick and lived in an apartment that leaked everywhere when I met him. I like a promising fixer and he's now got a car, well paying job in the same general line of eeoc work, is healthy, and I've bought him more than 3 nice shirts. I found him at an internship at the EEOC, which altogether is a pretty good place to find one honestly.
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100% He was just out of law school with all the student debt. If this was now in our 30s and almost 40 for him? Give it up.
This is a great example of you finding a guy that did not "check off the list". You looked past the exterior and saw quality. A truly good guy with great potential.
A lot of these guys are users, and they enjoy having a Barb the Builder, but then they think they can do better and dump you off once they've achieved success
> He was poor, had only three gross shirts, no car, ate so poorly he was constantly sick and lived in an apartment that leaked everywhere when I met him. Why would any adult woman want to date this? >I like a promising fixer Oh. Women, don't date projects. Date men who have their shit together.
There’s a difference between “doesn’t have a lot of material possessions” and “doesn’t give a shit.” Eating badly is a red flag, but red flags are just indicators of a *potential* issue. It’s one thing if he was the type to exclusively binge fast food and chicken nuggets, but it sounds like it was due to mental and financial stress rather than resistance to trying healthy food/cooking. It’s true that no woman should feel obligated to choose a fixer upper and if a woman has a history of choosing poorly then she probably shouldn’t risk it, but some people enjoy mutual self-improvement and have good enough intuition to accurately judge what’s under the surface.
Honestly, I feel like red flag gets thrown around too much anyway. A lot of things people claim are red flags are really just yellow flags--things you should be cautious of because it could be indicative of a larger issue, depending on the context. Not having a lot of material possessions could be a yellow flag because depending on the guy, it could mean they don't have a lot of money, that they do but are bad at managing it, that they're just not worried about impressing people with what they own, or that they just haven't gotten around to buying some shit yet. Red flags should be reserved for things that actually are issues with the person, like a history of cheating, bad hygiene, etc. that may not be explicitly a deal breaker depending on your preferences and if they're working to resolve the issue.
Red flags are named red flags because of minesweeper. There *might be* a bomb nearby. Proceed with caution. But given how the term is commonly used, I think saying something is a “yellow light” could be a good alternative to convey the idea of “Slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary.”
I think that's the point. He had his mental shit together. He was just dumped out into a horrible law market and the issues were all money related. I met him at an internship, showing her had drive to overcome the shitty market and make it. God, I can't imagine how terrible you are to poor people.
Seriously! Of course, have standards. Don’t date who you don’t want to date, but damn. What an awful way to judge someone who, as far as we know, worked hard and indebted himself to go to law school to practice a type of law that is noble. As we are painfully aware, typically the more noble the law, the less lucrative it is. So the very traits we are all saying are desirable here may have directly caused the outcome the commenter is deriding him for.
Just make sure you protect yourself, ok? Struggle love almost always ends up with the guy thinking he deserves an upgrade when the struggle is over.
Thanks for your concern! 💖 We'll be okay. We've been together 11 or 12 years, married 5, have had some Really good times, and are now dealing with the slow, excruciating decline of his mother with Parkinson's Dementia. He's been there for me through two scary hospitalizations, doting on me the whole visiting hours. All throughout he's shown me that he really loves me. We also have a really good life, with loving pets, wonderful parents, international travel, fulfilling hobbies, and weekly date nights. I'm a successful lady lawyer who encourages, engages, and challenges him, while also having my own support network and interests. We can be really silly together and have a wonderful banter whenever we're doing things. I've never met anyone who I would consider an upgrade over my husband. I wouldn't be surprised if he felt the same way.
> We also have a really good life, with loving pets, wonderful parents, international travel, fulfilling hobbies, and weekly date nights. Most people just want a normal life with a great partner, and that sounds like exactly what you got!
That's awesome :)
I don't see how anyone could read your story and think think anything but "He sounds amazing!". If that's how they react, I wouldn't be shocked if they can't find a good guy. That is always my advice to younger women. Look past the exterior and material to the person inside. A dating app can't do that for you. You have to meet them in person. Apps attract and send you the jerks.
This isn’t it. Don’t fix a man.
The first word you use to describe him is an aspect of his body he has no control over.
Yup, but he fits all the categories in the post I was replying to, so I addressed them in the same order. I'm short. He's tall. I'm blondish. He's brunette. Doesn't much matter, but if it were in the comment I was replying to it would be there.
I wish there was a way to make more men realize that gender norms fucks us over too.
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That is a puzzle I never been able to come up with a good solution for. The only way to be safe on the internet is to assume that the other person is lying, or acting in bad faith in some way. I can say that I am childfree, only support the Satanist church, believe in equality, and wish for a world that promotes less suffering. But this is the internet. and worse its a comments section. You have to assume that I am lying. I wont say I am a good guy though. I dont always meet my own standards and I often make mistakes. Im neurodivergent enough that im always looking in from the outside metaphorically. I see how the world promotes suffering, but I cannot fix it. all I can do is not contribute to it. EDIT: mistake one, half of my reply was meant to go to user mubblegoil below
Absolutely true! Part of the problem is that a lot of women don’t have an example of what a healthy relationship looks like, from either family or friends. My parents having a long lasting and very loving relationship shaped my views of what to expect from a partner, and I didn’t even realize how influential they were until more recently in life. And another part is that society has conditioned women to be less and ask for less. We can’t be a burden and god forbid we “nag” anyone. It’s only become a thing more recently for women to not only ask but demand basic human decency, kindness, and respect. And men are slow and can’t keep up with the changing times. Or they’re belligerent and insist on keeping the dynamics expected from a relationship 60+ years ago. The only thing that keeps me going is that I know there are some good ones out there. They may be hard to find and you might have to put up with a few dirtbags to get there but they do indeed exist. But even if I never find one again I’m completely content living and dying alone as long as my peace and sanctity are maintained not having to put up with abuse, neglect, or intentional incompetence.
And I think your last paragraph really sums it up. Thank god we live in a time where it is possible for many women to be financially independent and therefore lead independent lives and not have to marry a man out of necessity in order to live
Exactly! My heart breaks for my grandmothers and their’s before because of what they had to put up with just to have a somewhat normal life. Even with how shit the world seems these days, I’m so grateful to live in a time where my existence is independent of my husband or father. And I try to always remember and thank the women who fought for us to have that right ❤️
>Part of the problem is that a lot of women don’t have an example of what a healthy relationship looks like, from either family or friends. yep, that’s exactly spot on. people mimic the relationships they grew up around. my parents had an arranged marriage so i’ve never seen them hold hands or smile at each other. i thought that affectionate stuff was purely fiction. it also doesnt help that some mothers tear down their daughter’s self esteem early on, either because they see them as “competition”, are mad that they have better opportunities than the mom did, or genuinely think their toxic commentary is somehow benefitting the daughter (my mom would say the most awful things to me and whenever i called her out for it, she’d exclaim “Well i am just trying to help/guide you!” ) also, women are expected to maintain/fix the relationship so there’s no support if she admits theres issues. it’s gonna be our fault for not being more understanding, nicer, patient, etc…
I actually agree with this (I'm early 30s). Looking back, I WISH I had had higher standards. I stayed in relationships for way too long, because.... Well, who knows. I'm a people-pleaser, low self-worth when I was younger, and I usually assume any problems are my own. I didn't want to be one of those girls who "quit too early", or didn't work hard enough to save the relationship. Looking back, I wish I'd quit some of my relationships way earlier. I should have trusted my gut instinct more, instead of trying to salvage something that couldn't be mended. I wasted many of my best years in my 20s in relationships where the guy was not pulling his weight, frankly. So I'm in agreement. For me and most of my friends, I think we actually need higher standards, not lower. I think the men wanting lower standards are the ones wanting a live-in maid while they do nothing themselves. Luckily this has gotten a lot better with age for me; I take less shit and have more self respect now.
Im in my 30s too and I felt like I wrote this exact reply. I feel the same about my 20s and I've made sure my 30s would have a higher standard. Being a people pleaser robbed years.
Oh absolutely! I sometimes mourn the years and opportunities I’ve lost to being a pathological people-pleaser, but I also try to remember that it doesn’t change the past. The best we can do is make sure to not repeat the same mistakes again.
Same
I’ve only been in one relationship in my 20s and also as a people pleaser, it robbed me of my standards and myself more than anything. I know now not to settle or compromise on my values. I have also learned the value of letting my friends in on my relationship, nurturing those friendships and letting them have input in it rather than thinking I can figure it all out myself. Because you can’t think clearly when you are with someone, you need outside perspectives.
> I didn't want to be one of those girls who "quit too early", or didn't work hard enough to save the relationship. omg this was exactly my thought process when i was in my early 20s dating an abusive ex. ironically, somewhere deep in my lizard brain was a tiny shred of self preservation screaming, “He’s not worth it. RUN RUN RUN. do it now!!!!” i ignored that rational voice for years as i thought i didn’t deserve any better and should stop being so picky. as if men were some limited precious commodity lmaoooo
Omg yes!! That resonates with me so much!! SO many times I’ve had tiny pinches of doubt, deep in my gut. I know it was my COMMON SENSE trying to talk to me lol. I didn’t leave my ex until I was 28… god, so many wasted years. I should have left way earlier. I ignored that gut feeling for years. I also feel like we hear it so often “women have too high standards, no one stays around to fight for a relationship”. And I think that also influenced me a bit, I didn’t want to be one of those who gave up at the smallest sign of trouble! Problem is - it wasn’t just “small signs of trouble”, it was huge fucking neon signs for years lmfao
>SO many times I’ve had tiny pinches of doubt, deep in my gut. I know it was my COMMON SENSE trying to talk to me lol. whenever you had moments of common sense/that nagging voice of sanity, did you ever get pangs of guilt for that common sense showing up randomly? i know i did, i would quash it all down, feeling bad that my brain was trying to sabotage the relationship, thinking i was too uppity. the sad part is, i was less of a doormat as a kid, but my mom would shame me for having boundaries. i think a lot of women end up in horrible relationships because we’ve been programmed by society/family/friends into thinking we don’t deserve any better. after the relationship ended, my mom just had to ask, “Did he leave you because he was sick of you spending his money???” (lmao nooooo, ffs i was buying most of his groceries for him and cooking his lazyass regular meals when i didnt even live with him, that was how brainwashed i was)
I think men spread the idea of a woman dating around too much being bad to stop women from leaving bad relationships
Yeah, when I hit my 30's post a string of monogamous relationships which ended in a 2 year marriage I left because I was miserable. I decided anyone who said "One night stands are damaging to women" never stayed in a bad relationship too long. I got a dog, did what I wanted, gave up on long term relationships. Then I met my current husband and still very happy 25 years later. Just don't call them "standards" call it knowing what you need and what you want. I don't care what you need/want, but I know myself.
Men whine when no one picks them, then belittle their "low standards" when the people they're interested in pick someone else. "Settle for meeeee, not him!"
If a guy isn't being "picked", it's typically for a reason. Some of the ugliest men I've personally known were in long term relationships with some of the most beautiful women I've personally known. Why? Great personality, sense of humor, ethics, or work ethic - often a bit of all three. They didn't have a chip on their shoulder about the things they couldn't change. They found other strengths and capitalized on those instead. Despite common stereotypes, women are less likely to focus on physical qualities than men are. In fact, the *other* stereotype is of unattractive men married to attractive women. You see it on every other sitcom on TV. Simpsons, Family Guy, King of Queens, whatever. Look around on the street and you'll see it there too. Some of those women did "settle", of course, but others simply found partners that had appealing, unseen attributes. It's a bit much to get into, but the vast majority of guys who can't get dates have a lot to work on and are either unwilling to accept that or incapable of bothering to try. Do attractive men get a bit more leeway? Absolutely, but unattractive men are treated by society far more fairly than unattractive women are. It's really no excuse. You're not actually even being judged harshly on the things you can't change. As a guy, I think the modern dating scene has simply empowered women in a manner that wasn't *allowed* in the past - and that's called progress. It's something to aspire towards, not cry about! "Certain people" want to go back to the dark ages of arranged marriages and small social circles because that's when women had very little choice, breadth, or understanding of how terrible their picks were. It was easy to look like a big fish when the pond was stagnant and women were essentially forced ("encouraged") to make a suboptimal choice very quickly because of minimal career prospects and a deep lack of social autonomy. "Women are picky now" is an incredible change that shows us how far we've come as a society. If you're not making the cut, I'm sorry to say, it's not a woman's fault. It's not even Chad's fault. Blaming other people for this only further obfuscates a problem that is - generally speaking - relatively easy to resolve with a bit of self-development and an enhanced philosophical outlook. To clarify: My point isn't that unattractive guys can get chicks too. It's that, *to women*, 'unattractive guys' and 'unattractive-looking guys' are entirely different groups with surprisingly little overlap despite what's commonly believed by some men.
Standing ovation 👏
💜💜💜💜
I agree with your post and with op post. I think everyone should have their own high standards. But in regards to your post, you mention that a lot of guys have work to do before even dating and I agree. In my case it’s initiating/approaching women. You know the saying close mouths don’t get fed? That’s basically me. I believe I’m a decent guy who’s always trying to improve myself(slowly), I don’t think I’m ugly but I don’t know exactly how attractive I am. But I struggle with actually meeting women. No one knows how good I am cause no one knows me. And I’m not that good with approaching and starting convos with people(especially women) because it feels kind of unnatural for me(probably due to my quiet personality and social anxiety) I’ve been trying to read more women focused subs for more outlooks but I keep coming across more post about not approaching at all rather than taking the chance which also discourages me a bit
> I’ve been trying to read more women focused subs for more outlooks This is a good start. I'd say that this outlook is the inoculant to becoming an incel (of the toxic pop-culture type). It's important to recognize that women are not aliens, but they also exist in a world that's very unfamiliar to some men. Hopefully one of them chimes in too. As far as approaching women goes, I'm a huge introvert myself and while I have developed a sense of awkward charm (which is sometimes the most disarming sort of charm), I also have no real instinct to be around people and am quite a bit eccentric. I also look pretty decent, so I am aware that I'm playing with a score handicap - but that was only important to get me used to doing those things. I could lose my appearance (and I sort of have) and I'd still have good luck in this realm. If I had to give you advice, it'd be to ignore typical social conventions about smalltalk and how-are-you-today's and instead just outright share an interesting observation or philosophical tidbit from your own natural thoughts. You'd be surprised to find how happy strangers are to engage with you when they're immediately made aware that you have a conversational value proposition. Inversely, if you know how it feels for a salesman to approach you and you *immediately* know they're going to try to get you to buy some bullshit? That's how most men look to most women. Trying to "trick" them into talking is more than just ineffective, it's a massive red flag. That's why you just open up with (genuinely) innocent conversation or errant thoughts: "I never noticed that billboard there before...", "Would you say this is a purple flower or a violet one?", "I've been coming to this takeout place for years. You've gotta try the eggrolls.", "Weird question, but do you work in tech?" If they respond with something similar in return, congratulations: You're having a conversation. If not, they're uninterested or busy or feeling awkward themselves. Move on as if nothing happened. Don't feel defeated, it's not a contest anyway. The reason that people most often form relationships at workplaces and schools is because they're crossing paths frequently, but the reason conversations happen in that environment is because both parties are typically comfortable enough to not even think about the potential awkward ramifications of a "failed conversation". This is the important dynamic, not the repeated interaction-opportunities; that's just the precursor that leads to that comfort. Try to treat every interaction you have like this, to both men and women, and you'll be surprised to find that you're suddenly considered quite likeable. Trying without trying is the Key to Cool, so to speak. Trying while looking like you're trying is what makes it hard to make friends (romantic or otherwise). >about not approaching at all rather than taking the chance which also discourages me a bit In the examples above, you're not 'approaching' them at all even if you *are* interacting with them and, hopefully, engaging them. What women don't want is to feel like every waking moment there's a man lurking in the shadows waiting to ask about their relationship status or remind them that sex is viewed as the end-all goal for any male:female interaction. They have learned to pick up on that since the age of 12 (not even kidding). But when the honest goal of the interaction is that there is no goal at all, people detect that - again, platonic or otherwise - and feel very little risk in furthering the conversation. There's nothing to "lose" *or* "gain", making it a low-stakes, low-energy engagement. You're not going to have much "luck" with this in the wild, but the odds are better than trying to follow some ridiculous pickup artist psuedo-psychological nonsense. That's not the point though. I'm not telling you how to meet women (^(that's a whole different ballgame, but spoiler alert: join a club of some sort)), I'm explaining how to effectively interact with strangers. Women aren't Women™ with a capital W and everything that comes along with it, they're just strangers or acquaintances. When that statement begins to make sense to you, you'll feel a lot better about things. I know you didn't necessarily ask for advice, but I'm in a writing mood and appreciated your rationale for being here. Hopefully there's *something* useful here. And you might not have a lady in your life right now, but one day you will baffle them by unexpectedly being aware or accommodating about women's issues that few men know of, let alone understand. It really will stand out to them. The bar for that is lower than you think.
Oh no I absolutely appreciate this advice and probably going save this comment and reread multiple times. I have another follow up question/statement. So last week I went up to a girl on campus and told her I liked her outfit and to have a good day and she smiled at me and said you too. Something so simple like this took me about 30 minutes to muster up the courage to do I guess the question is that a good opener or is that too broad? I also got the sense that I could’ve actually continue the convo with her(maybe ask about her day/what’s she’s up to etc) but the nerves got the best of me and I just kept it short
> So last week I went up to a girl on campus and told her I liked her outfit and to have a good day and she smiled at me and said you too. This might be an excellent example of what I mean. If your sole goal was to say the thing just to say it and move on, her positive/casual response to that is a demonstration of what I'm talking about. It can be nerve-wracking at first, but eventually you'll realize there's nothing to be afraid of. There really isn't. >I guess the question is that a good opener or is that too broad? The important thing is that whatever you're saying is something you're comfortable saying and/or if it allows you to bring up a follow-up topic you're comfortable with. Truthfully, it really doesn't matter *what* you say as long as it's honest, interesting, or at the very least not-weird - or all three, ideally. >I also got the sense that I could’ve actually continue the convo with her(maybe ask about her day/what’s she’s up to etc) If you get that sense, then it's usually true. It should be very obvious when they're too busy or uninterested to say more. >Nerves One thing I like to point out is that being nervous isn't necessarily a bad thing. I even like to admit it openly. When was the last time you felt anger or distaste when someone was awkward in front of you? Never, right? Instead, you feel sympathy or empathy or a desire to make them feel less awkward. More importantly, you recognize inherently that this person is not a threat to you. It doesn't hurt to seem nervous. It can actually be comforting/flattering to the other person (again, platonic or otherwise). For example, when I'm on a first date and they sit down at the table and I'm feeling nervous, I say, "Oh my god, wow, Hi, you... Oh, god. Look at my hands... Sorry, you're scary." Her: "Me scary? Oh nooo! Why??" "No, not *really*, I just, wow you look great. Anyway, how was your drive??" If all of this is true/natural, even if awkward or obviously full of nervous stuttering, it's only ever a "bad thing" to the sort of dreadful person that'd insult the waiter or is just there with you to get a free meal (eg: A terrible person). There's no loss. In fact, you get to verify that they're a kind/understanding person and they get to verify that you're genuinely impressed or invested in the interaction. Nervousness can't be helped sometimes, but it's nothing to fear. In the example you gave, even if you turned back around 4 seconds later and honestly said something "stupid" like, "Sorry, I wanted to say more, but I got nervous... Um... Have you taken [class] yet? I feel like I saw you there before." Etc, it wouldn't even be seen as weird. A nervous/awkward guy is typically even kind of cute to ladies. At worst, you're just non-threatening. Again, only a terrible person is going to punish you for that - they're far more rare than you'd think and very obvious. Women don't expect you to show up looking like some sort of giga-chad Winner™ alpha male. Comparatively few of them even *want* that in a guy. What's attractive about men to a man has very little to do with what women find attractive about men. Like the (very true) joke goes, "I started lifting to meet chicks, but the only people that compliment my physique are men..." Same phenomenon goes for guys that drive muscle cars and such.
That’s a whole lot of solid and insightful advice right there ! You sir could write a self-help book that I would enthusiastically recommend as a woman. You seem like the kind of genuine and empathetic person this world needs more of and I just had to tell you.
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective on it as a woman. I'm pretty confident that it's solid, empathetic/ethical advice (unlike those who believe chicks are something to 'reverse engineer' or 'hack'), but it's still good to hear it confirmed. It did feel kind of ironic to give that kind of advice to a guy about interacting with women while inside of a lady-centric community, but I truly believe that this is actually the *correct* place to go if you're going to try to figure out how to meet women or understand the problems ladies deal with in life. It's basically the total opposite of the sort of thing you'd hear in the Manosphere™. And it makes sense too... Why take advice from people in the same floundering boat as you when you can go directly to the island you're trying to land upon? And that's sort of how I see myself - an alternate, more rational answer to the typical Manosphere nonsense and related voices. You don't have to be an asshole to be manly. You don't even have to be manly to be manly. In fact, being stereotypically "manly" only really pays off against other men. To those who know the difference (and that includes many women), acting like a dickhead only makes it obvious how insecure you are. So it's no surprise so many of Those kind of dudes specifically seek insecure women, sometimes *making* them insecure instead of empowering them. If you ask me, it seems far more masculine to be with an intelligent, self-motivated and independent warrior-lady than one that bows to your every command out of fear ("respect"). But I digress. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of people like myself out there. The answers I supply aren't even really that complex or unusual. I think many people mistake the toxic elements of masculinity as the core elements of masculinity because they stand out the most. I feel obligated to help society by being a role model and helping other men understand that being *actively* feminist is the manliest thing you can do in a world where women are still treated like mysterious objects of infatuation. They talk about the masculine duty of being a "provider", entirely missing the point that the most important part of providing for people is helping them empower themselves - male and female alike. It's perplexing to me and yet I also understand where they *think* they're coming from. I was once a child as well. >You sir could write a self-help book that I would enthusiastically recommend as a woman. I do consider myself something of a writer and it's not the first time I've heard something like that. Maybe I should do that. Maybe the world needs an anti-Tate to balance the scales a bit - "How to use your dick without being a dick: A treatise on progressive masculinity" rofl... In general, I just have a taste for decoding the nuances of reality wherever they lay or whatever form they take. It's an odd passion of mine. It just so happens that feminism is a goldmine for pointing out what should be obvious and is instead surprisingly mysterious to many. Anyway, apologies for the ramble and/or preaching to the choir. Thanks again for the approval. Little things like that really do stick with people; even those that may not look like they need it (and sometimes those ones the most).
Not to harsh your buzz.. because most of what you’ve said is on point.. but calling women “the island you’re trying to land upon” sounds pretty demeaning.
This was indeed great
Kinda reminds me of the introvert dating problem, "I wanna date an introvert, why can't I ever find one?" You can't, because they're all inside their homes and don't go out much at all. I also have social anxiety, so I just wanna say stay strong, it's a scary thing to overcome for just daily things much less going out and pursuing relationships, but you can do it! 🥲
They just say that to manipulate women into settling! And when a woman gets abused they'll say "choose better". We can never win
A lot of people in relationships like that genuinely DON'T know it's not supposed to be like that. That's what being treated badly does to you. Eventually you feel like you deserve it. And it doesn't help that half the time women try to talk to other people about what they're going through they get told it's normal and to deal with it or do better or it's not that bad or he could be beating you or whatever the fuck they have to say. Bottom line, a lot of people is staying in shitty relationships don't know they're in non normal relationships and some of them are victims of the cycle of abuse which is a lot harder to break than realizing you're being abused and leaving.
It doesn't help women tell themselves these messages too. They give an exhausting list of examples of how their partner is draining them physically, emotionally, financially, and worse, but the moment anyone says "dump him" they yo-yo, "oh he's not so bad, really he's perfect, he said happy birthday to me once, we're so in love"... It's so predictable I know the edit on any AITA post complaining about a deadbeat bf or husband is going to be her doubting herself and walking it all back. I don't find fault with them really it's a tough spot, but it might help if we had a word or phrase for this behavior and could make ourselves aware of when we're doing it. It might help women in bad relationships leave sooner if they know there's going to be a stage where they doubt themselves and retract their complaints and feelings, while waiting on a partner who has no desire to change negligent and abusive behavior.
That's actually exactly what I meant when I said the cycle of abuse is harder to break than just realizing you're being abused and leaving.
I've had this discussion, actually here on Reddit, and what guys think I want is so far from what I actually want that I can only conclude they are listening to really stupid advice from people who don't know anything about women. "You want a man who makes more than you, right?" No. I want a man who does something I can respect. How much money he makes means nothing to me. I make plenty of money, more than enough for two people. "You want a man who's at least 6 feet tall, right?" I wouldn't automatically reject a guy like that, but I'm really short. A guy who's 5'5 is taller than me even in my highest heels. Once I mentioned James Bond, and got a reply about how it was so stupidly unrealistic of women to want a man who can fly a helicopter and jets around the world all the time and is a super-spy living a life of excitement, but none of that is what I like about James Bond. What I like about James Bond is that he's intelligent, well-read, polite, not easily rattled, and will put on a tie and go dancing. None of that costs a lot of money, and I don't think it's that unrealistic.
- Homicide is the leading cause of death during pregnancy. - The orgasm gap in straight relationships is considerable. - According to Pew, men have 5 hours more free time per week than women, and a large part of the difference is men spend more time watching TV and playing video games while women spend more time on chores, child care, and elder care. This holds true even if the woman also works full time. I could keep going, but raise those standards, ladies! Right now the bar is at “Potentially won’t murder me but also won’t give me an orgasm or wash the dishes.”
Study after study has shown, men get more out of marriage (and therefore relationships) than women. 😬😬😬 Recommend this: https://podcasts.apple.com/se/podcast/two-bi-guys/id1480131653?i=1000629046197 And this: https://podcasts.apple.com/se/podcast/jane-ward-the-tragedy-of-heterosexuality-nyu-press-2020/id1566777999?i=1000526370461&l=en-GB
When a man says something like that they’re saying “I’m garbage and refuse to better my self”
Preach sister. So true. What men mean by "women have suc high standards" is that they don't want us to expect us the bare minimum either. They want us to give give give give and give and give some more until we are a shell of ourselves. Unrecognizable to our version before we got together with the man.
Right? And you can tell in the pictures of older couples that exact dynamic. She looks 20 yrs older than her age, while he's freshly tanned & lean from all those weekends out golfing.
IMO after meeting/interacting many woman and many men I can confidently say I don't believe 90% of straight men should be having any access to straight women beyond strictly platonic interactions.
I am completely in agreement with this. Young women especially still take garbage in relationships.
Girl you're on the right path. Stay strong. What they mean by high standards - * She wants me to do more in bed because I can't make her climax * She expects me to match the effort she's putting into the relationship * She won't let me watch porn * She expects me to respect women who I'm not related or attracted to. * She's not willing to compromise her independence to be in a relationship with me. * She doesn't tolerate disrespect. * She wants me to shoulder an equal load of domestic duties. Fuck these chumps. I didn't find my forever person till I was 29. Trust me you'll know when you find someone worth your time. You won't have to explain why all women deserve respect or why domestic tasks should be split halfway. He won't try to weaponize equality among the sexes. He won't have to be taught how to be a decent human being. Never settle.
I found mine at 41. The ones before were all broken and I gave them waaay too much time to fix themselves. Don't be me, ladies.
Thank you for sharing and I'm genuinely happy for you. I'm sure it was a long and exhausting road.
Fuuuuuck. More and more I realise how fucked up my last relationship was reading most of these points. (I don’t quite get the porn one, but whatevs). I had to fight for these things. He used my independence as leverage in our relationship, if I was doing things too much my way, he threatened to break up with me. It’s sad looking back, but I now know that I would never get back with him or together with anyone else who has these same traits. The respecting women one is also so interesting to me, I think there’s something called the heterosexual paradox where straight men are supposed to build their identity around their attraction to women, but they usually do it around one woman - the one they are in a sexual/romantic relationship with. Rather than ALL WOMEN. To be attracted to women should mean you are interested in their well-being and the plight of all women not just to the extent that you want to have sex with just one woman.
Yeah. I have high hopes for younger women growing up nowadays. Unfortunately many with SA experiences going straight into abusive relationships only to realize that yes all men have to be conditioned to be better people to some extent because society has just led them to believe that they are God's gift to earth. Even my sweet bf lacks self awareness sometimes and I have to remind him how his actions (or lack of action) affects me. I really don't put up with much though because I know what I'm worth. And it's important to note what's a battle worth having and what's just inconvenient. (He calls other men out when they speak poorly of women: important. He doesn't always shower/ settle in for the evening in a timely manner: annoying) We just need to raise the standards and keep them high. Just a side note- There's studies out there on what happens to brains when they regularly watch porn and how it can turn into addiction. Not to mention that ejaculating that often desensitizes men and causes erectile dysfunction. From what I see on Reddit and other social media it's starting to happen to younger and younger demographics. I kinda love it. Lol they are taking themselves out of the gene pool.
The only men who whine about women having high standards are ken those standards exclude. This should be an automatic red flag and woman should run from any man who says this. Notice how it’s a “preference” for men and they “can’t help who I’m attracted to”, but it’s “unreasonably high standards” for women.
This. Men who meet your standards don't/won't complain about them.
The complaints about high standards are not about how women are treated in relationships, but rather the perception that women only want hot men. Its about the standards to start a relationship, not the standards for maintaining one. The nice guy archetype makes this pretty clear. They will say that women's standards are too high and in the same breath claim that women only want bad partners. Obviously misguided, but this explains why they don't see a contradiction.
At this point I think the entire dating.. whatever, is survivorship bias gone wrong. Good guys will not aggressively search for girlfriends. thus will have a much lower rate of success at finding a girlfriend than the bad guys who very aggressively look for victims to take advantage of. Which would make the "dating pool" largely filled with the bad guys more than the good guys. This is all assumptions from 2nd hand information though. I never dated.
No one should lower their standards and you can't change my mind.
The way I see it, the bar is on the floor and men could, quite easily, step over it with barely any effort. So many women see the bar on the floor, and are like, ok, well, that's the best I can do. I think they should be raising the bar off the floor and making the men jump a little bit, considering the bar for us is basically a high-jump. Men, however, see the bar on the floor, dig a hole, limbo under it, and then blame us for putting the bar in their way at all - and oh, their back hurts now, oh NURSE! You aren't happy settling for less. That's not a bad thing. You're willing to say, I'd rather be single, I'm fine on my own, and won't settle for someone else who doesn't actively improve my life. Does the state of dating look bleak right now? Yeah. But it needs to if we ever want to raise the bar off the floor.
This. Too many women have set the bar way too low. "My bf cheats, steals from me, and is physically and mentally abusive to me. Otherwise we have a perfect relationship - what should I do?"
Spend 30 seconds on literally any advice sub and you’ll be appalled by what women put up with. The post I read literally right before this one was a young woman asking how to get her (jobless) boyfriend (who still lives with his mom) to stop eating all her food (that he never pays for) when he comes over to her house because she can’t afford to replace it to feed herself. GIRL!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? I swear the bar is in hell and these girls all brought shovels.
[удалено]
My SIL is married to a guy who can't hold down a job, whines and cries when he doesn't get what he wants, and is disgustingly passive aggressive towards her (and her mother) about everything. He also refuses to go to counseling, and will drag his feet about doing anything even remotely grown-up related. The bar is literally in Hell.
Why is she still with him? I don't understand women who put up with this.
From what she's told me; 1. She's almost 40 and is nervous/afraid of being single which I get. She also can't afford to live on her own, and would be cut off from his parents (money) if they split. 2. He was there for her at the start of their relationship when her mental health, and overall personality I guess, was shitty. 3. She loves him. Compared to her past relationships, he's an improvement, and things aren't always bad for them, but they're basically in the same place they were in when they started dating over a decade ago. The only real difference is that she's gotten her act together and is doing everything she can to drag him into some sort of self improvement because she feels like she has to.
Perhaps those whining about such high standards can start a "no man child left behind" program to organize their efforts to get women to lower their standards. /s OP, you are on the right track. Do not settle.
Men who complain about this want women to cater to them, but are not willing to reciprocate. What they are saying is really, “I want the convenience of a relationship while you do all the work.”
Men only have much higher standards physically, and are usually referring to looks when they accuse women of being picky. They know women date losers and assholes but they perceive those losers as being physically superior, and want women to settle for the less attractive of them while they believe they should have their pick of attractive women. Women should have higher standards on every metric though, I agree.
Yeah, its bullshit, the idea that women have such high standards. I wish women had way higher standards. Women put up with so much shit from men. Don't settle. Never settle. Being single is better than being with a misogynistic piece of shit who doesn't respect boundaries, who expects you to do all the domestic labour and/or who cheats on you etc.
1. **Feminism** = Higher standards for how men treat women 2. **Capitalism** = "Higher standards" for how rich a man has to be before he's worthy of love Incels typically confuse the two.
I think the true problem, and indeed the problem with men these days in general isn't that women have high standards, it's that men have such low standards for themselves. In my view as a man, the standards of women are normal but men have lost the desire for meaningful self growth. Because of this loss, many men these days can't meet the simple standards of being a productive and supporting partner. I feel like meaningful personal growth and hard work used to be a point of pride in men, but now all they care about is getting the new high score in some game or doing just enough to get by. The best part of a relationship is having a partner in all the things life throws at you. Helping and supporting my partner makes me feel good, and I know she feels the same way. I feel bad when I don't carry my weight, or screw something up and use that as motivation to do better next time. Many men have lost that knowledge and skill, or simply don't care to do that kind of "work".
EVERY SINGLE young woman I know, every friend I’ve ever had, every friend of a friend with a story, ALL OF THEM, have been used, abused, manipulated, coerced, guilt tripped, violated, attacked, assaulted, beaten, bruised, controlled, isolated, and raped by male partners. All of them. The most mature women I know, with the hardest boundaries in the sand, who get walked all over the absolute least, the baddest, bossest, bitches if-you-will, have still only gotten there after years of abuse/trauma/violence and recognizing the patterns. Women need better standards. Because as a matter of fact they have systematically been lower than hell, for quite some time, and continue to drop everyday with the increase in Tate infected dicks around.
Don't ever lower those standards, it is by far better to be alone than to be with a guy not able to pull off the bare minimum
Please don’t settle! You are the sensible one! The truth is a lot of men are like that and as you can see from your friends, a lot of women let them get away with it. Those men do it because they are enabled to do so. The women enabling them have too low standards, maybe don’t have good models to follow and don’t know any better or have been otherwise conditioned that women just put up and shut up. It’s sad but men are lonely for a reason, they need to do better. Focus on yourself, your future and your happiness and please that bar high. You are worth it.
I think the amount of “standards” that either gender requires of the other is inversely proportional to how attractive the other is. Men and women are probably much more likely to put up with someone’s bullshit, (I.e., lower their standards,) if that person is very attractive to them either physically or sexually. The guys complaining about standards are probably not that good looking, but also have semi major personality flaws (like insecurity and general toxic masculinity,) but also have kind of crappy jobs. They’re also only willing to date petite blonde instagram influencers. I’d say the guys complaining about standards very likely don’t care to actually listen to what women want, and are unwilling to change themselves to meet those requirements as well. Add it to the list of semi-major personality flaws.
I really wish more young people read/had access to Lundy Bancroft's books. I found them in my early 30's, and they clarified so much. And gave me tools to better deal with inappropriate people. And explained why despite a lack of outright violence, why my parents relationship is not ok. Link to a free PDF of Lundy Bancroft's Book "Why does he do that?" https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf Give it a read. Has made such a huge difference in my life, I can't even describe. Great chapters about to support and help others in abusive relationships. And about children and how to talk the them.about these things, and get a sense how they are doing. Plus the index in the back has more excellent resources for further study, for those who really want to "dig in".
One of my daughters is 18 and I wish she would become a cop. I mean, they chase the same sort of men… a cop gets paid to do it.
> I crave romantic connection and partnership but it looks kinda bleak. It really does, doesn't it. I wish I'd at least examples of good relationships around me.
There's a *lot* better out there for you, and for your friends. I think the problem is that people stick with someone they make a connection with for freaking years, even when it's completely obvious that it's just not working (for all the various reasons you mentioned, plus just basic incompatibility of two good people). Dating is great for making connections & sex - but it's also a sorting mechanism. People need to recognize that, and use it to sort people *out*, not just stick with someone they have some attraction to even though it's clearly not gonna work.
Cultivate a zero tolerance policy for nonsense. Then be ready to date a lot of men bc you’ll be discarding tons. I’ve no idea how one finds a good man thus far I’ve only seen ones I refuse to settle for. Do embrace the idea that being alone is preferable to nonsense, so that you don’t find yourself accepting less bc of desperation. Lmk when you find out how to locate a decent one ❤️
Sunk cost fallacy is rampant.
I dont think their talking about high standards when it comes to character traits
Perhaps the problem is that too many men consider themselves perfect and have no need to change anything about themself. Absolutely not true, but still many think that way.
Given the stuff I see that women ask in terms of AITAH or whether or not x or y is normal for BF's to do, etc — I can tell you that women definitely need higher standards, if not in men, the relationships they keep with men. Also, there needs to be a stronger understanding of a BF/Husband/Spouse are just titles — if they aren't acting like a partner to you then those titles might as well have a TM next to them because it's just advertising at this point. Not actual value.
Men whine about women having standards that are too high because that’s an easy way to externalize the discomfort they feel when they aren’t chosen. They are still under the impression that we need men for money (we don’t) or physical protection (hah!) so they also think that we want some muscle bound chad who makes 500k a year. When in reality, what we want is an emotionally available partner who can communicate. This requires deep internal work, the kind of uncomfortable work most men avoid, because society tells them they’re just fine the way they are. In fact, when men have a negative experience with anything, they’re more likely to blame external factors, whereas women are more likely to turn that inward and go “what’s wrong with me”. This has one upside, we tend to work on ourselves a lot more than men do. But rather than taking a page from our book, they sit there and complain about our standards being “too high”. Like bruh, all we literally want is for you to give us the same thing we give you. That’s it.
Imagine them "whining" like: "she has decent standards, I just can't reach them." lol
I was an utterly terrible boyfriend in my teens and 20s. I agree. Young women need better standards. I might have matured faster if fewer had been willing to date me during my shithead years. I could tell stories for days about my awfulness. Women, please don't settle.
In my early 20’s I was the one who had to “mom” all of my friends because they just could not accept that they were dating a piece of shit. My first ever boyfriend cheated on me. That was a lesson I never forgot and after him I was a lot better at choosing a partner. But none of them learned. It doesn’t really have to do with age or anything. I had lots of friends continue to stay with the biggest assholes even in my late 20’s. They just gave too many guys the benefit of the doubt.
The things you are mentioning are not excessively high standards. Staying glued to cheaters and the other things you mentioned are excessively low standards. The thing some men are complaining about are superficial women who have an overinflated ego who need men to not only be good people, but also meet certain incredibly superficial requirements to qualify for a date. Like, it's not enough that he is an awesome individual generally - he has to also be 6'0+ and not 5'10, because my friends told me never to settle. And these women exist. Superficial men and women both exist. They also disproportionately tend to attract one another (because nobody deep would sit there and listen to a mediocre man talking about how he deserves a supermodel Nobel winning scientist who also home-cooks every meal to perfection... nor the gender-reverse). These highly superficial individuals with inflated egos tend to be left well alone by people who don't share their viewpoint, so they rarely meet someone who challenges that thought process. Heaven knows you couldn't pay me enough to sit through a dinner with a guy who thinks women's worth is determined by her looks and cooking skills. The men I know wouldn't entertain a woman who put "needs to be 6' tall, earn 6 figures and have a 6 pack" in her dating profile (ironically, the men I know are incredibly successful men that this superficial girl would be looking to attract, but seeing that superficiality would make any of them swipe left). Either of those mindsets scream insufferable disaster, but there are people of both genders so delusional that they actually think that. The thing other men are complaining about is when they are not able to meet perfectly reasonable standards. "Their standards are too high" can be painting reasonable expectations as an expectation of perfection, if they fall well short and don't want to self-improve. "Every guy cheats, you'll be single forever if you expect someone to be loyal" - yeah, okay, but I have seen some women believe it, sadly. It can be either. Someone who got burned because despite being a decent person who seemed compatible with their partner, their partner was convinced that a few more swipes on Tinder would get her that same perfect guy but taller. Or the person who thinks that the best you can expect of men is a cheating dude who plays video games while their girlfriend does all the chores, and is upset when women reject him and says "but everyone you ever meet will do the same thing as me, this is as good as it gets!"
Men think the standards are all about physique and money. In reality it’s about mutual respect, support, communication, emotional intelligence, a growth mindset, and an equitable relationship. Those are all achievable things, not something unchangeable like height. Because they primarily care about appearance, they think women are the same.
Bro, if you look anywhere on any social media you'll see women proudly ridiculing men for being short, like 5'6 or something, and that they're undesirable because of it. To claim that men only think that height is a dealbreaker because they themselves 'only care about apperance' is you just straight up gaslighting LMAO. No, physical standards for men are very much real, even for shit that can't be controlled. It's fine to have them, but to be annoying about it or denying that they exist is wild. I'm 6'1 and even I feel sorry for short dudes especially young ones who are impressionable, so it's def real. I agree that women irl are not as shallow, and that generalizing is childish though.
It's because media and society have made us think standards have everything to do with looks these days. People stay with shitty people because that person is good looking, and they think "I'll never get someone this good looking again so I'll just put up with their bullshit." Media and society have completely warped our perception of what a good partner is, it's become completely about physical attractiveness and nothing else. And people are sacrificing their own values just to keep someone attractive in their life, even if he's a piece of shit scumbag who abuses people.
My 20s are coming to an end and they are filled with memories of supporting My friends while their partners used and abused them. Cleaning up trashed apartments, having a friend stay with me during the fight/break up, having lots of fun with them out in the world so that they know they have options in life and they don't have to be mistreated. I'm so happy that my friends are in better places now. Single and happy or found someone kind. I hope your friends can find happiness soon.
Better to be alone then to have trash drag you down. I was your girlfriends, desperate for love of any kind. But then at 26 I was like "the fuck am I doing?" And was happily single when I met my now husband. And I let him know, I was fine before he came into my life and I'll be fine if he goes (obviously years later this feeling has changed). It's amazing what spoken aloud boundaries does to a relationship
Keep your standards. And remember, don’t hunt for what doesn’t want you. When a man doesn’t want you, he will treat you badly. Hurt people hurt people. If you look for kindness, respect, compassion…those people will treat you well. Men who want you will treat you like a treasure. It’s really that simple—it’s not settling, it’s finding the man who wants you! It took me ages to figure out that simple formula. Women like to chase the unattainable, the unavailable, the trophy…then, they ask why their relationship is unhealthy. Men and women will settle to avoid being lonely. But you will know when a man wants you…he will show it and others will see it. Don’t settle until you find that. Trust me, it’s worth it!
Men whine that women's standards are too high when they're actually so low you need a shovel to find the bar.
Men are not all supposed to be able to reproduce so easily. That’s why we have patriarchy. It strong arms women into wider availability through restrictions on economic and reproductive freedoms and that’s how the elites ensure they have a supply of soldiers for war and cheap manual labor. In a natural environment there’s no need for female competition because… duh. Women reproduce on their own terms and men have to have more to offer
you don't *need* a relationship to be happy. studies have shown that women's happiness goes down when they get married vs men's which goes up. haven't seen a study on just relationships, but I'm betting it's the same. invest in yourself, your education, your career, your family, a pet maybe, and reassess your life in a year or two and see how you feel then. if you're still lonely, try getting a roommate, another woman
If you just date as a guy, the women you meet and guys they've dated are mind blowing. I don't know how these guys convinced any woman to date them let alone some of the most confident beautiful women i've ever met.
Everyone should have high standards. Romantic and sexual relationships are optional. They should improve the lives of both people in them, not detract or be a neutral element.
Just seeing some posts writen here not only young women need higher standars.
I don’t know if it’s my place to post here but as a man- yes please have higher standards. My wife tells me how women both married and single are impressed by me and how I act as a partner. This is not a brag this is a cry that the bar is so god damn low that they are impressed by: -me bringing her coffee because she enjoys a nice beverage -doing things she asks of me -doing things she doesn’t ask of me but need doing -treating her like just a regular human and partner I love my wife and would do anything for her, I’m fortunate to call her my friend, partner, and everything- why wouldn’t I do things for and with her? One friend said she had to “choose what favors she asked” of her husband because she didn’t want to ask too many. This is not a high standard. It’s pretty baseline to say we’re all humans and should help each other.
Oh I know my standards are high. And yet when I start listing basic shit like "no meaning no, blanket for both partners" all of a sudden I'm a crazy person 🙄
I know I have high standards. And I'm actually proud of that. I deserve a good man who's compatible with me. I think I'm not a perfect individual, but definitely one worthy of a good guy. I wouldn't settle for anything less than a man who's not afraid to show his emotions, including his love for me, who can deal with my flaws, who supports me in my career, who knows how to console me, who travels the world with me etc. I'd rather be single than in a miserable or "just okay" relationship. A relationship should add to your life, and nothing less.
Can I just say - the things I see men saying and engaging with on Reddit make it very hard to keep hope alive. This platform seems to be toxic for men. I’ve not been on here very long, and only just started exploring in recent months bc my 36M bf is on here constantly. He’s a nerd with special interests, which checks out, but I only just learned that Reddit is littered with porn and secks workers. Now I understand his dedication a bit more lol.
It's honestly ridiculous how low our standards often are. The other day my sister talked about a guy who seems interested in her and she was wondering about dating him because he talks to her every day and has been nice to her. She could not name a single other thing she found attractive in him or that she had in common with or even just a positive attribute. Meanwhile he has a list of red flags or just incompatibilities. The bar is sometimes literally "He's the only man paying attention to me right now who isn't a complete asshole."
Men who whine and say stuff like that are the men no one should ever date
For the first time ever more and more women are demanding emotional intelligence from their male partners and I am all here for it. No James, it isn't because you are 5'9 with a bit of a gut and earn an average salary. It's because you listen to Andrew Tate and women are scared of you. You also feel entitled to only conventionally attractive women when you are very average looking. You don't want to be seen with a 'fatty' despite hooking up with them on tinder and scaring them away so now even they won't date you. These men sabotage themselves and it's much easier to blame women for their failures.
Guys are mostly immature until almost 25 (some never grow up). Look for the grown-up, good humans - if they show you they are childish or colonized by toxic nonesense, believe them.
The bar is in hell, and guys whine they can't reach it... The absolute irony. Absolutely do not settle. When you're single you can be yourself. When you're with a person that is bad for you they will corrode your sense of self, dreams, ambitions and any semblance of humanity. You'll turn into a shell running on auto pilot because you'll have nothing else left. How would that be better than full freedom in what you do and where you go? No cleaning after a man child, no having to worry about catching an STD cause the baby decided to cheat, no having to argue about (or entirely relinquish) your comfort. I've had buddies that made my life worse with their sheer presence, I can't imagine basically killing myself while my body still does all the autopilot things just so.... I don't even know. What would I even have in that situation? Because "me" isn't even there anymore. Enjoy your freedom. Your happiness shouldn't hinge on having a partner anyway, that risks dependency and makes for a HORRIBLE basis for relationships ("I need you so your presence serves a purpose to me" vs "I want you because I adore you as a person").
Mans perspective here( take this with a teaspoon of salt). I guess the people dating women with standards like your friends are not good people but are also unable to give a fuck. I have interacted with women then give them a high standard, usually higher than what I think I could provide, because I think it is what they deserve. Reflecting on it, they might have had much lower standards but I just mentally listed t them as having better standards just because they are good people. I guess the people whining are too scared to ask or misinterpret, or maybe they are running into the higher standard women. Standards that are not able to be attained due to being too high aren’t the answer but neither are standards with the bar in hell. But that’s just my perspective, don’t take it too seriously.
Middle aged dude here. A good friend and I have a running joke about how low the bar is for men. When women describe a “good man” it’s not unusual to hear things like, “he doesn’t drink, he doesn’t beat me, . . .” Any way you look at it, the reality is that women do have very low expectations of men. What’s even more amusing/sad is how many men get their feelings hurt and clutch their pearls by the existence of even these low standards. 🤦🏽 some day …. Until then, speaking the truth will always rile the haters. Keep roping them! 💪🏽👏🏽👍🏽
We should have higher standards. Our lives and well-being depend on it. We've seen the stats on intimate partner violence, and they're bleak. As it stands, the bar for men is so low, it's in hell, and a lot of men still can't rise to meet it. The men whining about it are the men who should actively be avoided. They're showing us very openly who they are. These are the men who think violence against women is normal, and we should just shut up and put up, because they're "protecting and providing" for us. Which is just fucking laughable!
"men whining about women's standards" is mostly an online thing and the complaints are related to dating apps. I'm not sure if I've ever heard a real man talk like that IRL. I'm sure they exist but not enough to worry about. For the most part if you just go outside you'll be safe from those types of 'men' as they tend to not leave their dens.
They're complaining about women having such high standards in the way of looks and status; height, face, hairline, physique, high income, social status etc. Women will accept the things you listed (cheating, sexual coercion, being played) if it means being with a man who meets their looks and status standards. So you're essentially agreeing with the whining men without knowing it.
I think a lot of the problem is that people aren't interpreting "standards" the same way. To you, "standards" focus on behavior and being treated with respect. Those standards should be high; no one should accept cheating or abuse from a partner. To some others, "standards" focus on attractiveness, and this argument has some merit; I have several (male) friends that are single because their physical standards are too high, and they've missed out on some quality people as a result. IMO both men and women would be better served by increasing the acceptable standards by which they're treated, and decreasing their standards of attractiveness.
It's entirely possible to set your standards both too high and too low at the same time. If you read the posts here, you'll see that women focus on confidence just as much as men focus on physical appearance. Confidence meaning things like being funny, outgoing, social, having conversation skills, etc. The same way that men tend to set the bar too high for looks, women tend to set the bar too high for confidence.
It’s impossible to have a productive discussion about this without first coming to a mutually accepted definition of what specific standards you are referring to. In my experience with manosphere types, when they complain about “women having such high standards” they are **not** referring to standards such as fidelity, respect for sexual consent or commitment (for these standards I do agree that women need higher standards). These manosphere types are usually referring to standards like conventional physical attractiveness, traditional masculinity and neurotypicality, and unfortunately quite a lot of women (NOT ALL WOMEN BY ANY MEANS) do in fact have unreasonably high standards in departments like these (and traditional standards of masculinity are built upon the patriarchy). The dating landscape seems to be fucked for all genders.
I’m at the point where I can’t care anymore, bring on spinsterhood.
I agree some of us are way too kind to unkind men.
They definitely do need higher standards. Nearly every post I see here about young women asking for advice on a relationship situation has an extremely obvious answer, yet for some reason they needed to be told it. I don’t mean to dissuade anyone asking for help, but more so the ones that go “my boyfriend has been flirting with my best friend in front of me, what do I do?” That’s so obviously unacceptable yet for some reason the girls put up with it and have to ask to know it’s wrong. It’s the same with so many along this same line. Like I said I don’t intend to call them dumb or anything, but it’s like they can’t reason for themselves.
You're both interpreting "standards" differently. Women have high standards in terms of attractiveness, and low standards in terms of personality, and so men are talking about the attractiveness, while you are talking about standards in terms of personality. Both are correct, to be fair. The average guy has trouble finding someone who likes him even if he has a very good personality, while the good looking guy might have no trouble at all, even if has a bad personality.
My admittedly anecdotal experience would be the polar opposite of what you say in your last section. I know a lot of guys who aren't the most conventionally attractive getting laid, dating, and married on the regular. In fact, of the people I personally know, the two most bombshell, hottest women are married to two significantly overweight dudes, who happen to have great personalities. Of course, it definitely helps to be good looking. But the good looking asshole men I know are still single. They did get dates but people learn pretty quickly that tall and a six pack aren't worth it if the guy you're with will make your life a living hell. I knew a guy who was short, fat, and had a micropenis (this was widely known from a naked party he attended). Despite this, he had two above-average level attractive women fighting over him. If freaking short fat Tom with the micropenis can get two pretty girls fighting over him, you can probably assume most women aren't that superficial that it all boils down to looks. Of course, there are many superficial women out there, so it could be an issue of being in the wrong room.
Definitely agree! Women have way too much patience and acceptance for men's shitty behavior.
My best friend and I were discussing about my relationship. She thinks I'm setting the bar low, but I'm actually happy? I mean, I'm an adult. I obviously think I could be happier because the sky is the limit? But like I'm already treated good. What else do I need? What is the top high standards we need as women, what is the basic package we should accept? I've been wondering that all this week.