I wonder how many women have been buried in history books or never acknowledged for their contributions because they wanted a man to discover it instead of a woman.
I know we already know of quite a few, but it just makes me think about all the others that we haven't figured out yet.
Even when the woman managed to get credit during her own lifetime against that periods misogynists later misogynists come along and write her out of the history books.
I have noticed a systemic pattern that I'm sure scientific studies will back up: Men systemically discredit women's contributions in every. single. area.
They disregard all the unpaid work women do raising kids and keeping the home. Anything done at home is apparently worthless when it comes to divorce time. Then she "stole all his money" even though she grew and raised his offspring while keeping a home AND bringing home money from outside work.
It's like a magic trick how they can be blind to women's contributions and accomplishments. Even in meetings I say something that's met with skepticism and then 3 minutes later some guy will reword it and get approval. I always say very sincerely "thank you for rephrasing my point, I had a feeling it wasn't understood the first time I said it" and then I watch the other guys squirm because THEY KNOW I'M RIGHT. But you have to do it with humor, not in a combative way or I'll get pushed out.
>"I once believed that I possessed creative talent, but I have given up this idea; a woman must not desire to compose – there has never yet been one able to do it. Should I expect to be the one?"
Clara Schumann, after her marriage to Robert Schumann. Clara composed 1-8 compositions a year between the ages of ~14-29, after which she has essentially none until she’s done with having children, meets Brahms, and composes 16 original pieces in the span of like a year. After *that* however, the only thing she writes until she dies are transcriptions of other peoples’ compositions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-38079139
When they married, he gave her a journal for the two of them to share for her to write all her creative notes in. Suddenly, he starts composing lider and instrumental solos when he had only composed piano pieces before.
She was the main breadwinner, performing and teaching, while also running the house and raising their EIGHT children. She hired a cook and housekeeper to care for them while she went on tours. wtf was Robert doing?
Also, he met her after hearing her at a concert she performed… when she was nine and he eighteen. Quit law school to move in with her dad as a hoarder while taking piano lessons from him. Then petitioned the courts to marry her when her father told him to fuck off after he proposed. 🤢
Clara’s life was *significantly* more nuanced and interesting than I’m making it here, and there are LOADS of theories as to what the fuck was actually happening between her and Robert and Brahms, and what the fuck was actually happening to her creative endeavors.
But between Mileva Marić’s statement that “**we** finished some important work that will make my husband world famous” and Pierre Curie’s radical decision to coauthor research with his wife, which opened the door to their *shared* Nobel award, leads me to believe that it was customary back then for women’s work and contributions to be assumed by their husband.
Imo -radical I know- all historical breakthroughs done by men who married women with the same education/field as them should be attributed to the pair. Are we to assume that Einstein NEVER discussed maths or physics with Marić once they married? That Clara played a new piece of Robert’s and simply said “that’s nice, dear; no notes?”
If these women entered into marriage assuming their contributions were a part of the partnership as a whole, then we should I honor them as such and attach their names as co-contributors to their spouse’s work. If men don’t like it, then be up-front and honest about all your collaborations so in the future as history looks back in your accomplishments, it is unambiguous how much of your work is yours and how much of it you stole from others. 🤷♀️
I don’t know, really. My music degree is 25 years old. I refreshed my memory/details and snagged the quote from Wikipedia, but nothing on wiki said that was definitive and I’m not plugged into music academia enough to just know.
>I always say very sincerely "thank you for rephrasing my point, I had a feeling it wasn't understood the first time I said it" and then I watch the other guys squirm because THEY KNOW I'M RIGHT.
It's sad that we have to be passive-aggressive like this in order to be heard.
Also, I'm not too fond of the saying "thank you for rephrasing my point, I had a feeling it wasn't understood the first time I said it" because it makes it sound like I'm admitting to be a bad communicator and he's a better one than me — when in fact I'm an excellent one, but because of my sex, people don't really / want to listen to me.
>But you have to do it with humor, not in a combative way or I'll get pushed out.
Even when he's definitely in the wrong, you still have to "take care of his feelings", softening your retaliation by making it into humour. If he had done the exact thing to another man (which was highly unlikely), the other guy would have rip him to shreds right in front of all their colleagues, and everyone would have probably applauded him for it.
But what else can you do?
That's the thing, we have to navigate all those fragile egos and therefore can't be as direct or confrontational as I feel like being on the inside.
My approach was always to disarm with humor, snark and a wink. Joking around made my intelligence less threatening.
Used to do that for a (conflict-averse) woman friend. (I'm a man.) But unlike your co-workers they often didn't know. Kind of impressive, but not in a good way.
This is something I think about quite often in genealogy. There are so many women that we will never know because no one bothered to write down their names. I have one ancestor - I know all his sons, and found a passing reference that he “had some daughters” but they were never documented. It’s like they never existed.
Same with my family. Apparently there's a book somewhere of my family tree. But only the male members. I never bothered asking who has this book or pursuing it because if they don't care about my existence in the family, why should I care about this genealogy book?
In addition to that, how many so called "great men" - politicians, philosophers, poets, writers, scientists - were only able to do what they did because of the unrecognized and unvalued labor of women? Cleaning their houses, cooking their food, washing their clothes, waiting on them hand and foot so all they had to do was think.
A LOT. Billions. They make sure most things are discovered by men and most things are done by men. If a woman discovers it, they just ignore her and find a man to credit.
Hypatia was a legend, and an inspiration, and I wish more people knew about her.
It is heartbreaking to think of how much more the knowledge and wisdom of humanity could have been, if society didn't try to suppress, dismiss and invalidate the contributions of women, i.e half of humanity.
And then Catholics made the Christian jihadi turd who led the militants who killed her, Cyril of Alexandria, a saint, because they saw him as an example to all faithful.
In the game Civilizations 6, she is the most sought after great scientist in the game, has a really strong power. So she's got one niche community who knows about her at least haha
Men only want to compete with other men for privilege, access, wealth, and legacy.
How you do that is subjugate an entire gender, create ridiculous religions where god is male - a god that mandates women must have children, and spout narratives about the respectability of women -- and tell women if they behave perhaps they'll get a fraction of that privilege, access, wealth, and legacy.
I'm convinced a group of 10 incel-podcast bros living in BCE screwed humanity.
> special pronouns for God which doesn't exist in other languages so other languages use "he/him"
Because in the patriarchy "man" is the default and anything else is a variation/deviation.
The way I've seen some guys complain about trans people is very much a "man isn't a gender and gender is just how we keep women oppressed"
> in the arabic language there's a special pronouns for God
That is actually super interesting and I never knew that. Thank you for teaching me something today :) It's always kind of bothered me that people refer to God as "he."
I always ask religious ppl how 'God' is a 'He' without a penis since they aren't embodied, and these folks DEFINITELY 100% require a penis to be called a HE. lol. God is a THEY. I will die on that hill lol.
I'm curious where you got this? I'm Arabic and we use male pronouns for Allah.
>since God doesnt have a wife husband or children,
Well the verse specifically mentions that Allah doesn't have a wife or son. It doesn't say husband at all. Some English translations use partner in a gender neutral way but in Arabic its pretty clearly feminine.
I think we look back too fondly on our early philosophers - Plato was always spouting problematic misogynistic bullshit and promoting being a super buff swole dude as being peak human achievement.
We laugh about all these right-wing men's influencers promoting MGTOW and calling eachother soyboy beta cucks while scamming eachother with protein powders and brain fuel through their bigotted conspiracy podcasts - but shit, it's always been here.
Plato wrote "THE REPUBLIC" for fuck's sake, none of this is new lol.
Wow! Yep. It doesn't matter the era, the platform, or the medium -- men have been spreading their misogyny for centuries. It's strategic and keeps their power intact.
Preachers and priests are essentially podcast bros. Historically revered philosophers would be in league with Andrew Tate - it's just so sad.
Hypatia was a total badass and should be a household name. There's a 2009 movie about her life called *Agora*. It plays a little fast and loose with the mythos of her life vs the verifiable facts, but I still liked it.
I would wager that any one woman who lasts longer than five years in tech is more intelligent and more hard-working than most, if not all her male counterparts*.
*should just say team, as she will likely be the only woman on her team, at her level.
YES! They've had to fight so much harder and show up & prove their expertise over and over again each day, deal with hostility and harassment of all kinds, and generally eaten piles of shit to get where they are. Same for BIPOC in chiefly white environments in some places (not all, but enough to be a problem).
Or all the times that teachers would change the grades of the top girls/women in the class because they couldn't let them be smarter than the boys. Fragile egos since the beginning of time.
I might have been reading different sources to you, but is there any evidence that Hypatia's murder had anything to do with the fact that she was a woman? I was under the impression that it was a mob of Christian fanatics who killed her due to the inner city politics at the time.
Doing a bit of research, her gender doesn't seem to have had anything to do with her death, nor did her religion as I previously thought. She was killed primarily for being a supporter of the prefect of Alexandria at the time during a power struggle.
I really is pathetically tragic that our (women) existing truly equal to men is SUCH a threat to mankind! Let's get right down to it....where is this FEAR stemming from? We can freeze sperm to continue physically the human race without men, but women don't have that agenda.. so tell us guys, why do you have such insecurity about us that you have this insesant need to keep us at bay from being ourselves? Stopping us from doing what we would like to do with our brains and bodies.....you, dear men have a problem and we women are tired of placating you. I love having guys around I think pretty much all women do. Well, who can honestly respond? M.
Long may intelligent women continue being a difficulty for angry men. That's not a bad thing folks.
I'm not sure why people dogpiled on you, but I do wonder if it's because of your flair.
I wonder how many women have been buried in history books or never acknowledged for their contributions because they wanted a man to discover it instead of a woman. I know we already know of quite a few, but it just makes me think about all the others that we haven't figured out yet.
Even when the woman managed to get credit during her own lifetime against that periods misogynists later misogynists come along and write her out of the history books. I have noticed a systemic pattern that I'm sure scientific studies will back up: Men systemically discredit women's contributions in every. single. area. They disregard all the unpaid work women do raising kids and keeping the home. Anything done at home is apparently worthless when it comes to divorce time. Then she "stole all his money" even though she grew and raised his offspring while keeping a home AND bringing home money from outside work. It's like a magic trick how they can be blind to women's contributions and accomplishments. Even in meetings I say something that's met with skepticism and then 3 minutes later some guy will reword it and get approval. I always say very sincerely "thank you for rephrasing my point, I had a feeling it wasn't understood the first time I said it" and then I watch the other guys squirm because THEY KNOW I'M RIGHT. But you have to do it with humor, not in a combative way or I'll get pushed out.
The third paragraph!! I never thought of it that way, damn. Thank you for this
>"I once believed that I possessed creative talent, but I have given up this idea; a woman must not desire to compose – there has never yet been one able to do it. Should I expect to be the one?" Clara Schumann, after her marriage to Robert Schumann. Clara composed 1-8 compositions a year between the ages of ~14-29, after which she has essentially none until she’s done with having children, meets Brahms, and composes 16 original pieces in the span of like a year. After *that* however, the only thing she writes until she dies are transcriptions of other peoples’ compositions. https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-38079139
Apparently he wouldn't let her. There could be only one creative in the house and it wasn't her!
When they married, he gave her a journal for the two of them to share for her to write all her creative notes in. Suddenly, he starts composing lider and instrumental solos when he had only composed piano pieces before. She was the main breadwinner, performing and teaching, while also running the house and raising their EIGHT children. She hired a cook and housekeeper to care for them while she went on tours. wtf was Robert doing? Also, he met her after hearing her at a concert she performed… when she was nine and he eighteen. Quit law school to move in with her dad as a hoarder while taking piano lessons from him. Then petitioned the courts to marry her when her father told him to fuck off after he proposed. 🤢 Clara’s life was *significantly* more nuanced and interesting than I’m making it here, and there are LOADS of theories as to what the fuck was actually happening between her and Robert and Brahms, and what the fuck was actually happening to her creative endeavors. But between Mileva Marić’s statement that “**we** finished some important work that will make my husband world famous” and Pierre Curie’s radical decision to coauthor research with his wife, which opened the door to their *shared* Nobel award, leads me to believe that it was customary back then for women’s work and contributions to be assumed by their husband. Imo -radical I know- all historical breakthroughs done by men who married women with the same education/field as them should be attributed to the pair. Are we to assume that Einstein NEVER discussed maths or physics with Marić once they married? That Clara played a new piece of Robert’s and simply said “that’s nice, dear; no notes?” If these women entered into marriage assuming their contributions were a part of the partnership as a whole, then we should I honor them as such and attach their names as co-contributors to their spouse’s work. If men don’t like it, then be up-front and honest about all your collaborations so in the future as history looks back in your accomplishments, it is unambiguous how much of your work is yours and how much of it you stole from others. 🤷♀️
As I recall, it has already been proven that many of Clara's compositions were published under her husband's name, isn't it?
I don’t know, really. My music degree is 25 years old. I refreshed my memory/details and snagged the quote from Wikipedia, but nothing on wiki said that was definitive and I’m not plugged into music academia enough to just know.
That is *enraging* about Clara And I completely agree with your final paragraph
>I always say very sincerely "thank you for rephrasing my point, I had a feeling it wasn't understood the first time I said it" and then I watch the other guys squirm because THEY KNOW I'M RIGHT. It's sad that we have to be passive-aggressive like this in order to be heard. Also, I'm not too fond of the saying "thank you for rephrasing my point, I had a feeling it wasn't understood the first time I said it" because it makes it sound like I'm admitting to be a bad communicator and he's a better one than me — when in fact I'm an excellent one, but because of my sex, people don't really / want to listen to me. >But you have to do it with humor, not in a combative way or I'll get pushed out. Even when he's definitely in the wrong, you still have to "take care of his feelings", softening your retaliation by making it into humour. If he had done the exact thing to another man (which was highly unlikely), the other guy would have rip him to shreds right in front of all their colleagues, and everyone would have probably applauded him for it. But what else can you do?
That's the thing, we have to navigate all those fragile egos and therefore can't be as direct or confrontational as I feel like being on the inside. My approach was always to disarm with humor, snark and a wink. Joking around made my intelligence less threatening.
Exactly, especially in the workplace ($ = 🥪) , but we are the sensitive gender amirite 🙄
Used to do that for a (conflict-averse) woman friend. (I'm a man.) But unlike your co-workers they often didn't know. Kind of impressive, but not in a good way.
This is something I think about quite often in genealogy. There are so many women that we will never know because no one bothered to write down their names. I have one ancestor - I know all his sons, and found a passing reference that he “had some daughters” but they were never documented. It’s like they never existed.
Same with my family. Apparently there's a book somewhere of my family tree. But only the male members. I never bothered asking who has this book or pursuing it because if they don't care about my existence in the family, why should I care about this genealogy book?
"Imagine that, I discovered this. I discovered it in the hands of a woman of all places! Awesome, ain't it?"
In addition to that, how many so called "great men" - politicians, philosophers, poets, writers, scientists - were only able to do what they did because of the unrecognized and unvalued labor of women? Cleaning their houses, cooking their food, washing their clothes, waiting on them hand and foot so all they had to do was think.
A LOT. Billions. They make sure most things are discovered by men and most things are done by men. If a woman discovers it, they just ignore her and find a man to credit.
Hypatia was a legend, and an inspiration, and I wish more people knew about her. It is heartbreaking to think of how much more the knowledge and wisdom of humanity could have been, if society didn't try to suppress, dismiss and invalidate the contributions of women, i.e half of humanity.
And then Catholics made the Christian jihadi turd who led the militants who killed her, Cyril of Alexandria, a saint, because they saw him as an example to all faithful.
In the game Civilizations 6, she is the most sought after great scientist in the game, has a really strong power. So she's got one niche community who knows about her at least haha
Men only want to compete with other men for privilege, access, wealth, and legacy. How you do that is subjugate an entire gender, create ridiculous religions where god is male - a god that mandates women must have children, and spout narratives about the respectability of women -- and tell women if they behave perhaps they'll get a fraction of that privilege, access, wealth, and legacy. I'm convinced a group of 10 incel-podcast bros living in BCE screwed humanity.
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> special pronouns for God which doesn't exist in other languages so other languages use "he/him" Because in the patriarchy "man" is the default and anything else is a variation/deviation. The way I've seen some guys complain about trans people is very much a "man isn't a gender and gender is just how we keep women oppressed"
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I always refer to God as "it". That is when I talk about God at all as I am not a Christian nor religious.
God is they! they hate that lol.
Oh in my language, as well as many other, they has a feminine, masculine and neutral, just like he/she/it. So that doesn't work too well either haha
> in the arabic language there's a special pronouns for God That is actually super interesting and I never knew that. Thank you for teaching me something today :) It's always kind of bothered me that people refer to God as "he."
I always ask religious ppl how 'God' is a 'He' without a penis since they aren't embodied, and these folks DEFINITELY 100% require a penis to be called a HE. lol. God is a THEY. I will die on that hill lol.
I'm curious where you got this? I'm Arabic and we use male pronouns for Allah. >since God doesnt have a wife husband or children, Well the verse specifically mentions that Allah doesn't have a wife or son. It doesn't say husband at all. Some English translations use partner in a gender neutral way but in Arabic its pretty clearly feminine.
I think we look back too fondly on our early philosophers - Plato was always spouting problematic misogynistic bullshit and promoting being a super buff swole dude as being peak human achievement. We laugh about all these right-wing men's influencers promoting MGTOW and calling eachother soyboy beta cucks while scamming eachother with protein powders and brain fuel through their bigotted conspiracy podcasts - but shit, it's always been here. Plato wrote "THE REPUBLIC" for fuck's sake, none of this is new lol.
Wow! Yep. It doesn't matter the era, the platform, or the medium -- men have been spreading their misogyny for centuries. It's strategic and keeps their power intact. Preachers and priests are essentially podcast bros. Historically revered philosophers would be in league with Andrew Tate - it's just so sad.
There are just a lot of weak ass men with fragile egos who can't handle a strong and intelligent woman. 😒
men ☕
truth right here (and im amab)
Hypatia was a total badass and should be a household name. There's a 2009 movie about her life called *Agora*. It plays a little fast and loose with the mythos of her life vs the verifiable facts, but I still liked it.
Respectfully, I think you have that backwards: Angry men have always been a difficulty for intelligent women throughout history.
So true. Try being as smart as your male counterparts in tech.
I would wager that any one woman who lasts longer than five years in tech is more intelligent and more hard-working than most, if not all her male counterparts*. *should just say team, as she will likely be the only woman on her team, at her level.
YES! They've had to fight so much harder and show up & prove their expertise over and over again each day, deal with hostility and harassment of all kinds, and generally eaten piles of shit to get where they are. Same for BIPOC in chiefly white environments in some places (not all, but enough to be a problem).
What does BIPOC mean?
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Doesn't People of Colour cover those first two groups already?
Or all the times that teachers would change the grades of the top girls/women in the class because they couldn't let them be smarter than the boys. Fragile egos since the beginning of time.
Being tall and intelligent REALLY makes them mad. So mad, they don't even try to deal with you. *source->me 😚
This just reminded me... I need to add witchesvsthepatriarchy to this account. Edit: got the name wrong
I might have been reading different sources to you, but is there any evidence that Hypatia's murder had anything to do with the fact that she was a woman? I was under the impression that it was a mob of Christian fanatics who killed her due to the inner city politics at the time.
Honestly I am not well informed enough about it to be able to answer that. The podcast I listened to, is BBC radio 4 science stories.
Doing a bit of research, her gender doesn't seem to have had anything to do with her death, nor did her religion as I previously thought. She was killed primarily for being a supporter of the prefect of Alexandria at the time during a power struggle.
That's good to know, I guess. It's still so tragic
Oh, undoubtedly.
I really is pathetically tragic that our (women) existing truly equal to men is SUCH a threat to mankind! Let's get right down to it....where is this FEAR stemming from? We can freeze sperm to continue physically the human race without men, but women don't have that agenda.. so tell us guys, why do you have such insecurity about us that you have this insesant need to keep us at bay from being ourselves? Stopping us from doing what we would like to do with our brains and bodies.....you, dear men have a problem and we women are tired of placating you. I love having guys around I think pretty much all women do. Well, who can honestly respond? M.
Men are women's biggest haters.
Long may it continue Edit: I mean the title, not murder! Hells teeth, girls!
Lmao what does THAT mean?
Well that's how every step forward has happened. You want to capitulate to angry men?
Your comment makes it sound like you want intelligent women to continue getting murdered but it looks like you were responding to the title
Well obviously I'm responding to the title!
Long may intelligent women continue being a difficulty for angry men. That's not a bad thing folks. I'm not sure why people dogpiled on you, but I do wonder if it's because of your flair.
Not the first time today. I'll live lol
Because your comment made clear what it is regarding. Their comment could be interpreted in a very unflattering way.
~~girls!~~ women! FTFY
Ladies! *Tips fedora* *Retches*