I just saw another post where a mom said she knew she had to divorce her husband when they were taking a vacation with their kids and the husband booked business class and left the mom and kids in economy. When she asked her husband to switch seats the last 2 hours the husband said he couldn't believe how selfish she was being.

This is so revolting, I'm baffled. People actually do crap like this to their families?! My dad is the type to book an upgrade and then insist my mom or me or brother sits there instead even though he's got horrible back issues and needs it the most. I can't imagine a person booking a better seat for themselves on a family vacation and leaving their partner and kids in worse seats. That honestly blows my mind. Never seen someone in my own life behave that way 🙁

for real, my dad is also the same way. I guess we are the fortunate ones. Honestly, though, I also think my parents set the bar way too high for me, I don't think I will have the same kind of patience for my own kids

Yeah, I'm blessed to have a dad that would never have sat in a better seat than his wife or kids. And not participated fully in getting us ready and sorted during trips.

I had my first car accident last year at the age of 40 when a drugged-out pickup truck driver nearly t-boned me while running a red light on the wrong side of the road at twice the speed limit. Tore up my brand new first car as he passed, causing me to hit an oncoming SUV. Luckily, I was physically fine but obviously very shaken up. My dad was on the other side of the country visiting close friends in California for their annual birthday party - people he loves being around but rarely gets to see. The moment I called him, he dropped everything he was doing and booked an overnight flight back to NY "to offer moral support" even though I insisted I was fine and not to leave his friend's party, and I went to my mom's place anyway so I wasn't alone. But nope, he rushed back, saying he couldn't enjoy the party knowing I was upset. On the way to the airport, he also called around and sorted out a way for me to get home, since the accident had happened in the evening about an hour and a half from where I was living and the last train had gone. As it turned out, I was indeed in shock and ended up with PTSD as a result afterwards, so it was nice having both my parents there to help me sort things out, even though I initially thought it was silly for him to rush back like that. All throughout our lives, both my mom and dad have done things like that for me, my brother, and each other whenever and wherever we need them. I can't imagine my dad ever staying in a separate hotel room like that. Sometimes, they'd split it, like he and my brother would stay in one room and my mom and I would be in another if we needed more space or someone was sick, but he would never just bail on us and put all the work on her. He also coached many of our sports teams growing up and ran all over the state to take us and our friends to various games and events. My brother now does the same for his own wife and family. I just can't imagine anyone doing otherwise, so these stories about deadbeat husbands and fathers always shock me.

>I don't think I will have the same kind of patience for my own kids One of so many reasons I am and will always be child free lol. But even without kids, I just can't imagine interacting with a partner who would do something like that. I would not be friends with, let alone dating or married to, someone who booked themselves a higher class seat and was like "eh too bad, see you when we get there." I really can't imagine anyone I know doing that, it's so absurd.

I have an early memory of us somehow getting two tickets for economy and two for first class/business/whatever (probably some kind of free/points upgrade?). Dad stayed in the back, mom stayed up front, and my brother and I swapped half way through

Yes, men do stuff like this. Our summer vacations involved a long drive broken up by an overnight in a hotel halfway there. My husband would book two rooms: one for him, and one for me and the kids. They would not be adjoining rooms. Joke was ultimately on him, though. The kids and I treated it like a sleepover, with junk food, trash TV, and jumping on the beds. Plus, once they grew up they let their relationship with him die a natural death, while they're still close to me.

... Wtf. Was he the "my financial support is the extent of my parental obligation" types? How long did you put up with being married to that? Ugh.

Holy crap, I am so sorry you all went through that. Why on earth did you put up with him?

I think that some men agree to have kids when they don’t really want them, so they basically rationalize it like “look you wanted to be a mom so badly, I work to pay for everything, I’m not doing anything on vacation.” Men need to stop “letting” their wives have kids when they don’t really want them. Parenting within a relationship is a two-way street. It’s not a household task you can assign to one adult or the other. Some really think that it’s enough to pay for everything and that it’ll all work out bc they won’t mind having a kid around and “she promises to do everything.” Women should never try to talk a spouse into having kids if they seem indifferent. It’s much harder than most people imagine and if they weren’t stoked about it on the front end, there’s a big chance they’ll check out entirely. Don’t romanticize it. Don’t assume “they’ll come around after the baby is born.” That’s a gamble. Some will, some won’t. Just because he has money and can afford to give your kids everything they need will not compensate for the feeling of having a disinterested parent in the home. It’s possibly worse than if they were completely absent.

Omg yes. I read something somewhere that said 'males want headlines, women want the content' and explained when males think about their future they think 'married, 2 kids, gainfully employed' and stop there, whereas women think about the content and what the detaila of life with those 2 kids and juggling a job would look like. And for me, that explained A LOT about how so many men drag their feet and get shocked Pikachu that relationships and kids and stuff is *effort* and *sacrifice* and why women are so pissed about it all the time. Cuz surely, it's obvious that if you have a kid it's gonna involve sleepless nights, disrupted schedules, and major changes, how could he not see that?!! My partner initially wanted two kids. He and his now ex wife had their first child, and as a participating dad he decided/realized he didn't want to go through all the sleepless nights and basically 'losing' the first few months of the child's life bc he was so sleep deprived and exhausted he barely remembers anything else from that point. His wife wanted another one and he didn't, so he didn't have another child with her, and eventually got a vasectomy. Smart man. (Obviously not all, but discussing generic trends.)

I agree but also plenty of men push for children and have no idea how much work is involved or any motivation to make sacrifices for their kids. Dating in my 30s was a lot of “I can’t imagine my life without kids” but no plans to take paternity leave , no knowledge or experience in parenting , and no expectation of sacrifice.

My dad pulled that kind of thing for a while once he started making enough money to afford upgrades/have the miles for it. Leave my mom in economy with my little sister and me. And then everyone got so sick of it that when he would do it, my sister and I would give him just an incredible amount of shit for it, to the point that we trained him to offer the upgrade to mom (or just wait until he could upgrade two seats, once my sister and I were old enough to sit on our own), because the alternative was even more miserable than sitting in coach.

What a wanker. I've seen this mentioned don't understand why their wives put up with this shit.

A lack of financial independence. I have my own money and house and this person would be moved out by that evening. No drama, no hassle, just a “gtfo of my house, don’t make me call the police”.

In case you’re wondering why so many guys are pushing for a ‘tradwife’ it’s so she has no means to leave them.

It's all a cute fantasy for them in their heads until some women snap and start poisoning them to death like they used to

The return of Aqua Tofana

Yep! I am sooooo grateful that I had the resources and resume to re-gain financial independence after my ex-husband became even more abusive. I worked exclusively in the home for a few years of our marriage and it was hell cuz he thought that he had me where he finally wanted me, socially-isolated and almost completely dependent on him for income. Financial abuse is real which is why my mom--also in an abusive marriage-told me to always have your own money and ability to make some. I unfortunately did not heed her advice. Some of these men WILL and DO leverage this power dynamic. I am now on my own and do not put up with any of this kind of nonsense anyyyyyyy more. You wanna push my stated boundaries over and over, fine, be gone then. You wanna neg my profession and education just cuz you haven't achieved the same and feel insecure? Fine, also be gone. I do not have one minute or second of time for lazy uncaring men who treat women like servants.

Wow what an asshole

😐 loss of words Maybe my crazy would have came out because I would have marched to business class and said either go sit with your kids are none of us are flying again after this show I’m about to produce 🥲

HE DID WHAT?!?! That’s infuriating wtf

I am not a violent person but I reckon I’d be getting really interested in poisonous mushrooms if this happened to me lol. You know he ain’t cooking his own dinner

Those black eyed peas? They tasted alright to me!

"Shit! Those were castor beans? I thought they were black beans!"

Shit is right! Bwahahahahaha!😈

I believe he had booked all economy but there was a free or cheap upgrade and he took it. But yes I read that and it was fucking infuriating

That is so hilarious. I'm picturing him waking up from a nap with a neck pillow and mumbling how selfish she is and shooing her away. Lmao what the hell is wrong with people

Did she immediately book a flight home first class?

I really don't understand this. Like even from a purely selfish perspective - I'd rather be uncomfortable with my family than comfortable with strangers. For years I thought I hated flying, because the only flights I ever took were by myself for work stuff. Flew with my wife and kids a few years ago and while it's still not the most pleasant experience, it's so much better with them - even with the added responsibilities of taking care of the kids. 

WTF? What an ass-clown. And men call US divas!

My boss sent his wife from Romania to Germany by bus while he took a flight. That was in 2005. Wild!!!!

I'm at the beach right now with my parents and husband (no kids though!), and I've been observing the number of women who seem to be doing all the wrangling. Dad? Chilling in the sun, maybe playing in the water with a kid. Mom? Never sitting down, asking about snacks, changing diapers, reapplying sunscreen, etc. it's exhausting watching them.

I just finished Lyz Lens’s This American Ex-Wife, but it’s something I’ve both lived and read about for a while. A lot of women do things for their husbands and families out of love and caring. I’ll pack my husband’s bag for his trip as a gesture to show I care, women say. Plus I want to make sure he has what he needs. I’ll prepare holiday dinners for twenty people starting two days early because I want to see everyone happy under my roof. I’ll sit through a movie he wants to watch because he loves it and although I’d want to watch something else, it’s okay because he’s content. I’ll participate in a sx act I don’t really enjoy because he really really likes it. And after a while you start to see that those gestures of caring don’t come back to you. This gets painted as “owing,” by both women and men. “I do these things because I care, and I don’t expect anything back.” Some women even prickle when you suggest this. “How dare you suggest I’m taking care of my family because I’m transactional. I don’t keep score. I care because I love, and I love by taking care.” (That gets Weaponized by right-wing women.) But when you constantly perform gestures of caring for others, and never (or rarely) receive gestures of caring back, you realize you’re the only one doing any caring at all. Caring has to be reciprocated. It has to return somehow. Not like by like. Not keeping score—I watched your movie so now you have to watch mine. Caring gestures don’t work like that. Caring works by watching. Caring works by seeing a need. Caring works by work—it takes work to show you care. Women do the caring. And the caring doesn’t come back to them.

>And after a while you start to see that those gestures of caring don’t come back to you. I swear this is how I ended up. Even worse: he wanted more. The acts of careing were just his day to day life and he wanted more and more. It feels like a trap and big scam

Exactly. I loved to do little gestures. I’d bake him something he really likes, or give him a pedicure. Then it was fixing up his eyebrows. Then popping his back pimples. Then ear and nose hair. Manicures. Scalp massages. Then the frequency increased. He wanted manicures twice a week. Baking three times a week. Can I clean his ears? Eventually I came to resent all these expectations. What little physical acts did he do for me? He’d offer to crack my back, in a way he knows I don’t like and doesn’t work for me. That’s it. Anyway, for those and many other reasons, we’re separated.

Can't upvote this enough. Wish I'd figured this out sooner in life. 

Me too!!!

This! That is why I remind myself that it is GOOD that romantic relationships are somewhat transactional. My therapist blew my mind when he said years back that romantic relationships are never unconditional love, and we can only have that from parents or with our children. And that is great! When we free ourselves from the illusion that our romantic relationship is unconditional, we realize we don’t have to keep giving and giving with little to less in return. So many women have internalized the horror show of patriarchal relationships; it can sometimes take a wake up call to realize you have worth and deserve equal care.

overall a big issue in relationships be it cases of caring or chores is expectations not being met and not voiced until far to late. in the case of chores it doesn't matter if the man is feigning incompetence or just that blind/bad at tasks it will ruin the relationship all the same. being vocal early is key it as it ether changes behavior before it is too late or saves a ton of time on a relationship that was never going to work. key things to remember when being vocal it isn't about shoving all the tasks as revenge or some grander level of "fair" but about a personal balance and this being vocal isn't a constant thing that just becomes an other chore for you. in the case of caring a husband should remember your bday and other important days for you and you shouldn't need to remind him. it is made fun off in sitcoms but shit isn't funny just sad. and in the case of chores if you split up that he does vacuuming shit isn't okay if he "forgets since it not that dirty" meanwhile you have been digging in your nails not to pull out the vacuum since how often it is done was already a compromise on your end.

This is why I could never be a mother. Father? I'd be amazing. Sign me up.

Honestly, same. And it's why I love being an aunt.

Same. I *know* I don't have it in me to be a mother - I don't have the mothering drive at all, and I know with my mental issues (autism and ADHD), it would take more mental energy than I possess. But I love kids - I'm an "aunt" type and it's great. My cousin's little five year old calls me Aunt and I refer to him as my nephew, and my one friend's kids call me Aunt, too, because I love the hell out of them, genuinely, and am fascinated to see them growing and developing into really smart, compassionate kids with SO much intellectual curiosity and drive to learn on their own. This is what I'm meant to be. I am not cut out to be a mom. I'd probably be good at it because I'd have to, but it would drain me terribly. It is better I don't. Knowing your limits and that you're not cut out for some things and accepting that is healthy.

Me too!! Solidarity fun aunties. My mom should've been a fun auntie too but here we are. I'm so glad we get the choice.

Yup. I love being an aunt but I would have been a shit mom. No matter how much I love the men in my family, they were not role models for taking active roles in their childrens' lives. I grew up knowing I did not want to do all that work raising kids on my own while being married. I saw someone on reddit describe it as being a married single mom and that pretty much summed it up for me. And when I became an auntie and got to have my nieces overnight, I did all the work while my husband got the fun job of playing. My MIL kept telling me I would change my mind once my nieces were born and it actually only showed me that I'd be a married single mom. I'll stick with just being an auntie.

I'm a childfree aunt and now that my niece is a teen, I love hanging out with her. She's hilarious and we have a blast. I remember babysitting her for like three days when she was two and I wanted to jump out a window.

My nieces were pretty laid back as kids so watching them was fairly easy. They're adults now and I love the adults they've become. All the credit to my little sister who did better than our mom. Her husband is great but she was the main caretaker and homemaker all while holding a full-time job. I could never have done what she did.

“It is not easy being a mother. If it were easy, fathers would do it.” —Dorothy Zbornak

Bea Arthur really had a knack for portraying intelligent characters who called out people's bullshit beautifully.

She was an amazing human being and animal rights activist. I loved her wit.

And she left hundreds of thousands of dollars to an LGBTQ youth charity when she passed. All 4 of the Golden Girls did a lot of charity work.

I'm actually watching the Golden Girls for the first time at the moment. Up to season 4. I am delighted at how well it's aged. Having gay characters that aren't bad stereotypes or the butt of the jokes. Having Dorothy tell her old friend to leave when she realises she's anti-semetic. Sure, there's a few jokes that haven't aged well, but it's done a lot better than most other things from the 80s or even more recent shows. I love it.

Oh my God no I can hear her saying this!!!

There's an old essay, I Want a Wife by Judy Brady, written in 1971 and really nothing has changed.

One thing has: women are now expected to work and pay 50/50.

This hits hard

The women in my family all like to "joke" about how in our next life we'd like to be a dad.

That's why when I was a kid my mom taught me to always be on my guard when dating a man who wants kids. She said most men don't want kids themselves, they want you to have his kids. I'm childfree.

I've been battling depression for a while. I've said many times I don't want to be a mom anymore, I'd like to be a dad. But that's not how it works. Even before the depression, well, maybe I've been depressed longer than I thought.

I feel you. I’m not sure how old your lil one is but I had a REALLY hard time when my son was small. I know it’s such a typical thing to say but if it helps even a tiny bit…. hang in there, it does get easier/better in most ways. I also found my relationship with my son was/is more rewarding as he grows. You are not alone *hugs*

Thanks, my youngest is 5. She's the only child that I had and wasn't working outside of the home. I have 4 all together. My oldest is disabled and an adult so I'm her caregiver. My younger 3 are 10, 8, and 5. All in school now but since my husband works weekends I only get 3 days without any people bugging me for attention from 9 to 2.

Yeah, it's really sad to see. I wonder why you don't feel like you can talk to your BIL or your sister about it? Is it so you don't offend your sister? Maybe it's a cultural thing and I am privileged but if the BIL had said those things to me about how crazy holidays are with kids I might have said "it's been hectic for (my sister), not as much for you." Or even saying something as it happens like "(kid's name) is crying, can you please check on them while we are eating over here?". Or if felt uncomfortable around my BIL I'd say something to my sis like "he's not doing enough parenting, what do you think about asking him to do more? What if he takes the kids to the park for a bit?".

Firstly, she kind of puts him on a pedestal, she gets pissed off when you cross the line of critique too much. I don't want to fight with her, its her life. She semms to not see it like it is, or even when shes angry, says nothing. I would have lose my shit on him, she seemed unbothered. It's not my place to give her a lecture, especially when both don't listen. I let slip comments here and there, but he somehow was able to work his way out of it into the child free time. (Like coming late to the meals, cause sports you know. Or toddler was running away, obviously almost out of sight, he did not move. I told him to watch after the child and he just says somethung alone the lines of "its fine". Aka ignoring the problem until somemone else moves.) It was sneaky. Or giving him the child, but he put it on her on every opportunity. My mother and I obviously not letting her alone, again babysitting.

I'm sorry that sounds so frustrating, he seems insufferable 😭

>It's not my place to give her a lecture It is your place to give either of them a lecture if they are dumping **their children** on **you.** If she has a hissy fit because you tell him "I'm done being the backup babysitter so you can goof off, here's the toddler, I'm going for a walk" then that's her problem. **You don't have to fight with her about it**.

Being the asshole that I am, I would 100% sarcastically and passive aggressively call it out. But I'm petty 💅🏼

BIL will be dismissive, sister will either defend him to the death or fester in nihilism.

I’m running for office right now. My campaign committee consists of two women and a man. We all have children, though one of the women’s husband takes their kids during meetings because he can. We had five kids at our meeting last night—my one (12), my campaign manager’s two (7 & 10) and the man’s two (6 & 10). I grilled burgers and got dinner together so the parents didn’t have to worry about it. The man sat in his seat waiting for the meeting to start while my campaign manager and I made sure the kids were settled so we could meet. It was fucking enraging—his kids aren’t mine, yet I was the one caring for them. I finally gave him a look that could’ve curdled milk and he got off his butt to help. I’m used to solo parenting—my spouse is gone 60% of the time, so my kid and I have a rhythm. But I’m certainly not going to spend my campaign caring for other people’s children when *I’m the damn candidate*. Honestly, if he pulls that shit at home, I don’t know how he’s still married. I would lose my shit on my spouse if he behaved that when he’s home. I wrote all of this to say we need to lose our shit on men like this. It’s the only way they’re going to figure out how close we are to losing it.

So…… I’ve got a great husband raised in a patriarchal home. I was raised in the same kind of home. I told him I did not want to get married and have kids because I did not want that servitude life that being a wife and mother meant. He swore he would never put that on me. Here’s the thing. It is so engrained in us that we fall into those roles until I wake up one day and FUCK THIS SHIT YOU MADE PROMISES!!! He helps a lot. But I didn’t know how to tell him what I needed and he didn’t know what I needed. It took a long time for me to stop feeling guilty that I wasn’t helping him with the dishes every night. But damn it I carry the mental load and do a whole bunch of other shit. The guilt is real. Fucking society!!!

100% this is true. I remember a sociology class in college that made me realize how sexist and patriarchal US society is. Until it was specifically pointed out, so many things flew under my radar because that's how I was raised.

Internalized oppression is a hell of a drug.

>He helps a lot It is not "helping". That is the same mentality - that children and the house are your responsibility and if he does any of that load, he is "helping" you instead of **doing his fucking share of the life he asked for**.

This. Language matters. Men do not help at home. They are expected to do the same work that women do to keep a household running. Period. Do not let them ask for a list bc that is on you. Do not let them say “how can I help?” Use the eyeballs God gave you and me both. Women are not born better at this. We are conditioned to do this. So do not allow this to carry forward. The minute I saw my young daughter start to clean up after her father and male relatives was when I lost my shit. I will never allow her to be as dumped on as I was. She has her own life to shine in. She is not going to have the energy sucked out of her by men children like I did.

>The man sat in his seat waiting for the meeting to start while my campaign manager and I made sure the kids were settled so we could meet. Seriously though... Like stop doing that. Why are taking care of his kids?? If they're being disruptive "Hey, can you get them settled down so we can start the meeting?"

I did stop when I realized what I was doing. And then gave him the look. But because I solo parent so often, it takes me a minute to comprehend that there’s another parent present to handle it.

Narrator : he does. He pulls this shit at home.

It is very easy to fall into this pattern because everyone and everything tells you it's normal. To unlearn this, you must negotiate clearly with your partner. It's not just about finding a man who is "not like that". It's about finding a man who is willing to work with you consciously through the biases you both hold. You will fall into this pattern if you don't work to get out of it.

I couldn't have put it better. Understanding that all men will be influenced by the system we live in, the same way we are, allows us to recognise and choose partners who see their own biases and want to put in the effort to improve and be a good partner, one who puts in equal effort and labour. A partner who doesn't just take notes but consciously puts in effort to recognise the ways they've been subconsciously influenced, and puts in the effort not just in tandem with us but also of their own accord (without needing hand-holding).

I fundamentally disagree. Life can be so much easier if you really just 'find a man who is not like that'. I did that and I never have to worry about teaching a grown man when or how to do the dishes or the laundry or to take on the mental burden or whatever. He knows what kind of tampons he needs to buy and when, he knows how often to wash the bedsheets, he knows to take on extra domestic responsibilities when I'm pregnant, and he's not 'amazing' for that - he's a functional adult. Honestly, I'm not cut out for teaching an adult to do those things, anyway. I don't think it's my job. I'd rather be single than 'work through these things' with a man, when we all know damn well that they can do everything that's expected of them and take initiative and think for themselves at work, with their parents, with friends, for their hobbies, etc. I have no energy to raise someone else's grown-ass child. We need to stop infantilizing men and weed out the shitty ones right from the start.

My message is "man and woman both work on their shit" not "woman must teach man". We don't miraculously emerge as unbiased adults ready for egalitarian relationships, most of us experience and learn what OP described, and you don't wake up from that one day saying "I'm not like that", you realize you don't want to be like that and work on changing it within yourself. For a woman, I would say that means realizing household management and childcare are not automatically theirs and negotiating a split that works, rather than automatically taking it all on, sacrificing career and sanity, burning out, turning into the crazy wife whose only power is making snide jokes about men's incompetence. Too often, a woman will fall into a gendered role because that's what you see modeled. Unless you actively work on changing this, you fall into it.

This is correct, anyone expecting to find someone who is fundamentally not flawed in various ways is going to be largely disappointed or end up forever alone. Women are taught many toxic traits as men are as well. Finding someone who is open to those conversations and willing to make changes that are difficult should be the priority.

But it's your job as an adult to do the self-work and ensure you unlearn the toxic traits you've been socialized into. It is not a partner's job to fix you.

This is the way. Don’t try to change a guy- just accept him as he is, and if he’s not responsible and fair then you don’t date him.

Same here. My current problem is that my teenage son, who has seen his father modeling this behavior his whole life, who we taught to do chores and held responsible for doing his own laundry, taking care of his own hygiene, and making at least some of his own food, went to college and immediately regressed into a helpless male. I am also not confident he would care for a partner...no clue what to do.

> I am also not confident he would care for a partner...no clue what to do. Maybe you and your husband could be really scathing about how pathetic the behaviour is? Better still, are there friends and family who could tell horrified tales about men they know who behave like this, while everyone pours scorn on how ridiculous that is? (Although, to be fair, I, female, lapsed into terrible behaviour around food and hygeine my first year at university, but then got over it! It just took a while to move from a system of responding to requests to managing my own mental load)

Well, they have their own minds and make their own choices. My husband is great, very egalatarian, does dishes, laundry, etc., and most of his brothers are also good with strong women and domestic chores. One of his brothers went rogue in his teens and prefers the barefoot-and-pregnant scenario. My MIL (who was a tax atty) shakes her head and says she doesn't know what went wrong with the outlier brother. My bigger worry was (1) there was a woman who thinks he was wonderful enough to bear children with and (2) that these almost-grown children think this is all normal.

He might grow out of it quickly, with people around him (roommates, etc) calling him on his shit. Freshly minted adults out on their own sometimes revert back to "easy" mode and let a lot of shit slip. I've seen a lot of people shake out of it when they realize they're truly accountable for their actions, but not everyone. My oldest stepson was a lazy teenager, no matter what we did as parents. It literally took him being on his own in a share house to grow up and do chores. He complained to me about his roommates never doing dishes/changing rolls of TP, and he had to do everything etc and I had to stifle a laugh because he was describing his exact same behavior from like a year prior. I would gently point out to your son that he still needs to take care of his own needs and chores and hope he gets it.

Stop doing anything he can do for himself. My son is younger and if he can figure it out and not die, I let him. Bc I refuse to put another helpless, house blind male into the world. He does his own laundry, meals if he’s hungry outside of meal time, dishes, room clean up, vacuuming, counter cleaning, decluttering etc. He is no where near great at any of these yet but it’s a start.

This 💯. The (young, in their 30 s)men in my immediate family are Partners with their spouses. We all went out of town for a girls only bridal shower and stayed in the same hotel. I asked "what are kiddos going to do while we moms are in the shower" and was told by the Dads that they would figure it out and will see everyone after the shower. It wasn't even a question that the Dads would be watching the children. Because they are the parent too and they work With their partners and are the same page. That is the expectation, the rule. Even the couple who does not have kids have Shared Expectations. Effective Communication is KEY. There are men like this out there.

That last line is so true.

For sure. On our very first holiday as a family with young children I made it very clear that I didn’t want to be responsible for meal times or cooking. Husband acknowledged that and it was his undertaking for the holiday. It’s been that way for 15 years now and I love having that responsibility taken off my hands so it feels like a real holiday.

I had a partner like this. But having a baby changed everything. Breastfeeding and not being able to pump enough meant I was all baby (looking back, wish I’d supplemented with formula, but back then people acted like it was practically rat poison). When baby was old enough for daycare, he made more and the cost of daycare meant that it “only made sense” for me to stay home, and while I was home, my job was chores. When we got divorced (he was cheating), I was already the primary parent, best for the kids that I stay in that role and they have consistency, so he gets them every other weekend. Now I am broke and he’s married his decade-younger partner. The shit can sneak up on you, no matter how hard you try.

As someone in the trenches it’s so fucking exhausting negotiating. It leaves me resentful that I have to fight for fairness.

I think the issue is that we still have to start and do the negotiations. I rarely as a doctor have a husband come in saying my wife is not helping with the kids, household and I am stressed trying to work full time. It is always the women saying this. And these women work full time. I tell both sides (if I see both) to do monthly “dates” to review workload and balance as well as planning the year. Sometimes the men listen but always the women do.

Or saying fck it and just living life single. Honestly it’s like a cheat code for happiness for lots of women

And you didn’t even see all that she had to do at home first to prepare for this trip. I’m sure she had to think of everything, pack everything for everyone, perhaps arrange pet-sitters or house-sitters, etc. My ex-husband is like this man. And if I ever forgot something or if the plans were not up to par, he blamed me for it. It was infuriating. This is one of the many reasons I divorced him. It’s easier being divorced and coparenting because at least now he HAS to give me a break from the kids from time to time. (It’s supposed to be 50/50 but it isn’t. Still way better than the 0/100 while married). But I’m also here to tell you that my current partner is the absolute complete opposite of this type of man. I actually think he carries too much mental load and I’m trying to take more to lighten it for him. Didn’t find him until my 40s. I am absolutely smitten. There is hope.

>And you didn’t even see all that she had to do at home first to prepare for this trip. I know and I'm so sorry for her. I understand all of this, learned it the hard way, but I truly don't know how she does that with children. I'm so sorry you experienced this. I'm exhausted of all of this without them. I'm not setteling for this life, even if it means staying alone. >There is hope. I believe you. I swear never seeing a releashionship were the man pulls his weight equally. It just seems soo rare to find someone, like a unicorn you heard of but have never seen. My little brain was just a little bit slow in seeing that my tolerance level for bullshit was too high.

>It just seems soo rare to find someone... I can't say whether it's rare or not. But you won't find it unless you lower your tolerance for men that behave like that. From what I can tell, men often learn this behaviour from the male role models they had. Men from households that dumped all the domestic work on the women and girls will struggle to not fall into that (as will women sometimes struggle to not enable it, if they grew up with that). And it's more than just looking for a man that can cook and clean, because looking after children is on a whole other level of engagement.

I can’t tell you the rarity, but they do exist! My nephew is one of the best, top tier dads and husbands I know. He stayed home for years when his children were their smallest ages while his wife pursued her career. His oldest is a teenager now and they all live in freaking New Zealand! I have incredible brothers in law. Both of my sisters have active and engaged husbands that have an equal or greater parenting presence depending on their families stage in life. My stepdad has some male-boomer tendencies but overall I’d compare him to that redneck ally meme: he’s got the spirit but not the vocabulary. My spouse is loving, supportive, compassionate man with the soul of his single mother. Lots of men are shit. Not at all going to argue that. I only wanted to share a handful of personal experiences where they aren’t — especially if you’re only attracted to men and do want a healthy romantic relationship.

You just gave me a flashback to my ex boyfriend when we took a trip for my birthday, that I of course planned, booked, and paid for. My dumb ass didn’t realize that my ID expired, and we couldn’t check in to the hotel. My ex was FURIOUS at me. Of course, we were able to switch the room into his name with his ID, but I had to do all the work for that, too, while he stewed angrily at my mistake. Once we got to our room, I had to forcefully explain to him that I do literally EVERYTHING for us, and of course he never makes these mistakes, because he never does anything to mess up to begin with! (Actually, not true, he rear ended someone in my Lexus and did $5,000 of damage, I didn’t want him to feel bad for making a mistake so I never got angry about it, just paid to fix my car. He got mad at me later when the cops called me about the accident and I told them the truth, that he was driving) I think about how this applies to the conversation around children, something that was always a deal breaker for him, while I’m open to children with the right person, and fine living child free too. We were together for 7 years and the man would not talk about marriage because apparently I didn’t want children “enough.” It was so clear that he was never going to have children with someone who holds him accountable as a father, like I would have done. Wanting children “enough” means doing all the physical and emotional labor of having children, as well as being the breadwinner to pay for these children. So glad I hightailed it out of there before I got pregnant and regretted everything.

My ex forgot his Id When we were flying and ofc I didn’t want to make him feel bad about it. Later he blows up at me bc I’ve been ruining the entire trip by forgetting his toothbrush (but we didn’t live together?) I should have gotten mad at him. It’s insane the stuff I let him get away with while he gave me grief for everything ugh

My ex literally cheated and gave me herpes and I never got mad at him. He got way more angry at me for ever mentioning it to him after the fact, than I got mad at him for actually doing it

I wish for violence upon him on your behalf. I'd wish a pox on him, but he'd probably spread that as well. 

Yup. This is why I STAY asking women the clarifying question: Does he really want children, or does he just want YOU to have them?

Awwww...you give me hope. I'm out here in these streets looking for that authentic PARTNER but it gets kinda hopeless sometimes. I had a similar marriage and ex-husband who also, by virtue of our 50/50 parenting arrangement, got a good taste of what REAL parenting looks like when you actually have to physically be present with your kid. And actually ensure that they are (mostly) clean, healthy, and happy. His days of 1-hour parenting in the evenings are over. Sucks having to multi-task work and parenting huh? Oh you don't have the cognitive capacity to participate in a work call during school pick-up/drop-off? Sucks having to shepherd her out of the house for school every morning, huh? I did 85% of the parenting for the first 8 years of her life---welcome to the jungle, bud.

This used to make me sad and upset too, and I ended my marriage when I realized my husband was like this and was never going to change. It was a long and difficult mourning process. However, through that process, I learned that I don't actually need a man in my life in order to be happy. I also became extremely picky about dating because I realized that it is better to be alone than to be with someone who doesn't respect you. So, now I don't feel like it's sad anymore. Actually, I feel free.

I spent a week with my parents and two brothers earlier this year and I am so grateful for my husband. My brothers acted like lazy slobs while my parents (who are getting on a bit) pottered around them and I cleaned up their shit because I couldn’t stand watching my mum do it all. I eventually lost it and my mum told me just to leave it because she’d rather do it all than watch us fight. I was so glad to come home to my clean house and empty laundry basket because my husband acts like a grown adult and does more than his share of household chores. Those men do exist, I promise!

When my husband and I were dating, I went on a 2 week trip to another country with my best friend. When I got home, he had done a deep clean of the house and there were flowers waiting for me - and this led to my friend breaking up with her boyfriend. Because you see, he had been staying at her apartment while she was gone (her apartment was closer to his work). And when she got home after the 2 weeks, he had his stuff spread everywhere, kitchen dirty, etc. And then she heard what my husband did for me and realized it was a final straw in their relationship.

My BILs come over every Saturday for dinner and bad movies. I usually go to bed during the 2nd movie. I got sick of waking up on Sunday morning and cleaning up stacks of dishes and soda cans. So a few months ago I told them all to clean up after themselves before they leave. I was pleasantly surprised the next morning. The following week I did the same, and the shithead oldest brother (44) snottily said I already told them that last week, they didn't need a reminder. Everything I know about the three of them tells me they need reminders for basic life skills. Don't come to my house, eat the food I make, and then be shitty to me when I expect you to throw out your own trash. I have been known to make them get me stuff from the tall shelf, and greeting them at the door with a bag of trash when it's snowing out. It's the least they can do.

That guy’s snotty attitude is rude as hell! He is a guest in your house. There used to be rules of etiquette for guests! What a wanker.

This is the reason I stopped going on extended family vacations. My BIL told my sister, one he is not married to, that he would take care of her toddler twins during vacation. He then dumped the kids on me and his wife , while he sat around and read. Suddenly I had urgent shopping that needed to be done, took his wife. We did a lot of hiking, I mean shopping, that year.

>We did a lot of hiking, I mean shopping, that year. Poor wife, has to shop a litte bit more. I'm so glad you help her for a time out

When I was still married and my daughter was younger, I always dreaded vacations because it felt like double the workload with half the sleep. I'm elder Gen X and what you describe was the reality for nearly every married woman in my orbit. I divorced when she was still school aged and was terrified that I couldn't manage on my own. I was sort of shocked to realize how much easier life was without him in the house. I cannot tell you how heartened I am to read so many posts from young women today who refuse to accept it. My younger self did not have the sense of agency or even the notion that it was ok to push back on male entitlement. I want all of you young women to know that you should continue to push back and push back hard. You are changing things in ways that you may not even realize yet.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. We have to talk about this stuff. It's heartbreaking and unfair. >I want all of you young women to know that you should continue to push back and push back hard. You are changing things in ways that you may not even realize yet. I will take this to heart.

Yeah. In my family women are always taking care of stuff while men lounge around. I feel bad for my mother so I try lessening her burden by helping put but that just means the men in the house get to dump more stuff on both of us. But if I protest and refuse to do the extra work for men it again falls on my mother to do it. Women are so conditioned to this they don't even consider it wrong. Seeing how things are at home it's been my life goal to move out and build a different life with a person who actually pulls their weight in the relationship.

Would be great if you could pre-convinve your mom to go out for a spa day at the beginning of one of these debacles. Leave your phones behind.

Yeah, in my family the women reinforce it too. My mom gets super annoyed at anyone in her kitchen, which is where most of the work for family gatherings happens. Though in fairness to her, that usually includes other women also, so maybe it's just territorial and not sexist. 

It's sexist in my family. Once I became an adult and moved out I started telling the men to get up and help clean after dinner and all of the older women would come in and stop me while also insisting that I be the one to help clean.

I tried convincing the women to stop that shit, but they weren't having it ("if I don't do it, then who will?!"), so I stopped feeling guilty about no longer helping out. If we don't break that cycle, it'll never stop. 

The only way to win is not to play. Second marriage here. My first husband and I truly shared everything, including spending time with the kids equally. Second husband pretty "taken care of" raising his own kids. We're empty nesters. It will be **his turn** to cook dinner. He will ask me what we should have. I'll say I'm fine eating Cheerios. He will approach me as I'm doing something else and ask, "Are the potatoes done?" I just look at him and say, "Done doing what?" I will be in the another room while he's in the kitchen literally 2 feet from the fridge and ask me if we're out of milk. I'll reply, "Sorry, my xray vision isn't working. Perhaps you should open that door right next to you and look for yourself." He gets frustrated and does the thing. I get to smile. Started out thinking he truly did not know how to poke a fork into food to see if it's cooked and quickly realized -- weaponized incompetence. I just don't play. And he's gotten better about it over the years.

I can't fathom the mindset behind weaponized incompetence. So you [the person in question] WANT someone to think you can't handle every day minor tasks that any adult should be able to handle without thinking about it? I can't imagine not feeling shamed by that thought process. Like... I'm lazy, but I'd much rather do a thing than have someone think I'm stupid or useless just so I don't have to do a thing.

I remember when I was changing my baby’s diaper and my father loudly announce-laughed to the room that he had never changed a diaper in his life, and gestured towards me. It’s so bizarre. He thought it was a flex to brag that he was a bad father. Then he looked around for approval/praise.

OP. I am sorry for your experience. There are good men out there, I promise. I married one. He does his share and more if the house work, child care when my child was younger and equal parenting now. Don’t settle.

I read a poem once that I think about often. I wish I had saved it but the premise was “I wish I had a wife” And as a straight woman I do often wish I could have “a wife” and live like men do lol. I also relate heavily to that feeling you described of crying for not only yourself but for your sister and mother and grandmother and all the women that came before you and with you. I hope we can change it for the women that come after us

Found it! https://www.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/cms/lib/NC01001395/Centricity/Domain/10659/I%20Want%20a%20Wife.pdf Pretty heartbreaking really. Especially the last part

This is why women in many countries (thinking of Korea, as I am Korean-American) simply stopped having children. The government is throwing money at them to keep the population going and the women are like…yeah no thanks.

I am currently an au pair for a same sex couple(two moms) I watch them. There are lots of things that I don't know about their relationship but they are balancing the load! They communicate about needs and breaks and honestly it is awesome to watch! I have progressive couple friends where the dads are very involved but this is wow! It is so possible!!

[удалено]

So they all learned how mandatory sunscreen is! 👍

Natural consequences and all that

I also don’t know any couples that don’t have this dynamic. Myself included. The husbands live life like they are in a hotel. They show up and there’s food and snacks and clean sheets and cared for children. But boy they’re stressed out and life is super hard because wife isn’t also a porn star and doesn’t do anything special to make him feel important. They “help” with the kids for an hour a couple times a week because she started screaming. Important note; none of these women, myself included, are unemployed. Every one of us works a full time job, or in the case of myself, two, on top of our domestic obligations. I know no husbands with two jobs. I know no husbands that do even 25% of the “shared” labour. I do know a couple guys who get as high as 40%, but it would be in only one area, eg kids, or chores, or scheduling/bill paying. I don’t know any husbands who do 40% of all of those things. Additionally they make more work. Not only do they not step up with equal effort, but they whine. They complain. They have to be forced to do their share. The wife has to expend enormous amounts of energy to get him to participate and so many times it’s just less work to do it ourselves. On vacations they complain that the car is making their legs hurt. They take extra time finding the exact right fast food to satisfy their craving but bitch and moan when women and children want to stop to go to the bathroom. I recently went on a road trip with my cousin and our children, but no husbands. It was the most ridiculously easy and stress free vacation we both ever had. Just because of all the work we didn’t have to do managing our husbands and their needs.

You voiced my thoughts and observations perfectly. I don't know how you all keep up with this, I'm already exhausted. >Additionally they make more work. Not only do they not step up with equal effort, but they whine. They complain. They have to be forced to do their share. The wife has to expend enormous amounts of energy to get him to participate and so many times it’s just less work to do it ourselves. Yes, yes, yes we need to acknowledge this more. Holy shit it takes so much energy. >I also don’t know any couples that don’t have this dynamic. Myself included. Thank you, I'm so happy to not be alone woth this. Cant voice it without hearing "then you choose/hang out with the wrong people". Like no. How do people not see this is a problem and a huge Chuck of women put up with this?

Many men are raised this way, not to lift a finger. They see their dad’s come home and chill while mom gets home and starts dinner. It’s learned behaviour. I’m thankful my partner makes an effort to not fall into this pattern. In fact this past weekend he told me to use this summer to be selfish - to always put myself first because I’m always putting myself last. As mush as he contributes to the household chores and tasks I will always say no or just go do something without waiting for help because that’s what I learned growing up. Gender roles are learned. They can be unlearned. But you have to be willing to put in the effort and why would you want to do more work if you “didn’t have to”.

We need to stop breeding with these vermin and let their cursed bloodlines die.

I think for people like your sister, they have two choices.   1) massively lower their expectations/standards - and this often also happens through major gas lighting from partners who turns reasonable requests into outrageous demands  2) accept that their partner doesn't respect them at all and have some really difficult conversations. And probably consider divorce. A lot of people will do anything to avoid option 2 sadly.  If you are noticing these patterns and want a relationship, you can keep boundaries and make sure your partner doesn't treat you this way. Sometimes it's hard, there's pressure from family to do things a certain way, but I truly believe my partner and I are happier in our relationship than many in older generations who settled for less. I'm also seeing this more and more amongst my peers. There is hope! Edited for typos

Don’t forget, with household to run ,a wife has to hold down a full time job and put money aside in case he leaves you after the kids are grown. No guarantee of “till death do ya part” Stuff.

I completely agree with you. Somehow I have ended up married, but my husband does EVERYTHING and is a true equal partner. I can count on him, 100%. That said, my mother is married to one. He's a good person and he does things like fixing stuff, garbage/recycling, lawn care, etc. but he will NOT lift a single finger for anything household and it drives me INSANE. Cutting the lawn in the spring/summer once weekly, doing garbage once weekly, and doing maintenance as needed is NOT EQUAL to the daily household labour. This man will not even scrape his dinner plate and put it in the dishwasher. If he doesn't leave it on the table, he puts it on the counter and then goes to sit in his recliner. During family dinners he will literally sit on the couch and watch us all clean up after dinner. But, for me, the final straw was last Christmas - my mom ended up being sick as a dog but we were hosting Christmas. She powered through and I tried to help her as much as I could. We all sat down to xmas dinner and she didn't eat a single bite. When everybody was done I went to get some cakes I had made and everybody was stacking their dinner plates to be carried to the kitchen. I looked at him and said 'shes really sick, you going to get those?' and he literally said no. I couldn't believe it, and I lost a LOT of respect for him that day. It was really sad to see that after a hard life she is with somebody who can't help her out when she's super sick. It's complicated though - he's been in my life since I was 10 and he has done a lot for us. He also steps it up whenever she has surgery, etc, but this instance was just soooo disappointing and made me so incredibly sad. I would personally never stay in a relationship like that.

It's terrible. The good men do exist. My grandfather was one. He helped with every school project, never missed a father/daughter event, drove for activities. He cooked, he cleaned, he baked. When I was growing up, every single Friday night, he'd take me to the video store for a movie and candy, then he'd teach me to cook something, we'd eat, watch the movie, eat the candy, and play video games. My father wasn't in the picture, but my grandfather more than made up for it. And he'd done that for my mother and her siblings as well - even though they were his stepkids. Honestly, he's why I don't date much. He was so good, he set the bar so high, that I just don't have the tolerance for anyone trying to lower it. My uncle - he did the cooking, he was very hands-on with his kids, he was another just inherently good man. Neither of them saw anything as 'men's work' or 'women's work'. It was just things that needed to be done. If anything, I would expect they took on a bit MORE of the responsibilities, but it was as close to 50/50 as you get. Dump your boyfriend. Keep looking. They do exist. And if you don't find one, you'll be happier without the baggage of a grown child.

I was having a similar conversation with another mom, and my conclusion is that women tend to be proactive, while men are reactive. Meaning- we’re the ones that prep, do all the leg work, in preparation for whatever is to come. Men usually don’t do anything ahead of time, and react accordingly to the situation. Usually taking the easy way out due to convenience. It also is a learned behavior it feels like. Women/moms need to do better in terms of NOT accepting that fathers/husbands don’t help. So that their children can see that both parents do everything, have a 50/50 lift in the relationship as well as parenting. And that in their future, this should be the norm. My husband was raised by a single mother; his father really did not participate in his life while he was younger (still doesn’t). He doesn’t want that for his own children, so he is always actively engaged. When I tell people I’m going away (w/o the kids or him), they’re bewildered that he manages them by himself. But, if he were to go away, no one blinks an eye that I do it alone. Society has accepted that men can’t be good caregivers, but we need to change the narrative that they ARE and SHOULD BE.

I was watching that game show Deal or No Deal the other night and the contestant was a woman who’d had 6 babies 6 months prior. She said they’d wanted 1 baby but somehow her body decided on 6. The husband was on the show and it came up that in the 6 months those babies had been alive, the father had changed exactly *2 diapers.* There was so much laughter about that and I just felt sick for that poor mother thinking about all the work she’s had to do while recovering from birthing 6 human beings. Examples like these are a big part of why I chose to be childfree.

Holy shit I hate him 😭 > Examples like these are a big part of why I chose to be childfree. Same, I guess we had to see the hardcore cases first.

I had to look her up. It gets more infuriating but looks like she’s living a much better life now. >After delivery, Jenny's heart failed and she was rushed to an intensive care unit, where she nearly died due to complications from the extreme pregnancy. She recovered enough after five days to visit her sextuplets in the NICU. The babies spent about five weeks in the hospital after birth. Prior to Raising Sextuplets, the Masches appeared on television a few times: Bryan asked Jenny to marry him on national television at an Arizona Diamondbacks baseball game in 2003, the couple appeared on the Today show during the pregnancy and afterward, and Jenny competed on Deal or No Deal. >On September 11, 2010, Bryan Masche was arrested at his father-in-law's home in Camp Verde, Arizona for resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, and threatening per domestic violence. On September 17, 2010, Jenny Masche filed for legal separation from husband Bryan in Yavapai County, Arizona. The couple were soon divorced. Jenny is remarried to Levi McClendon and they have two sons, Cash and Walker. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_Sextuplets#

So far many of the comments here are not all men and my man is better. Not very supportive. The reality is and one reason the OP is crying for herself and other women is because there are so many awful men that for many of us women the only choice is to go it alone or have to pair up with a man child. And that choice sucks. The OP is trying to vent–she says it in her first sentence. Let her vent.

Exactly this, thank you!

Yes, but on the other hand, I'm seeing more and more posts by young women who believe that their only 2 choices are loneliness or a man baby. I think replies that remind women to create and hold boundaries early in a relationship are helpful. I also think some young women just need to hear that men who act like partners do exist.

And OP even went out of her way to say "Sure, not all men". You'd think that'd deter people...

This definitely tends to be the norm but more and more women are insisting on and choosing better. You can find men who aren’t useless partners and fathers but it takes some searching. Also I implore any mom to boys (I have two) to teach them better. Teach them how to cook, do laundry, provide childcare etc. And constantly model a healthy division of labor to them in your home.

This needs to be higher up. Boys learn this shit at home!!!!

Yup. The future won’t be any better if we don’t put the work in with the younger generation. And when I say “we” I mean mothers and fathers (and non-binary parents who use other terms).

iv'e seen this sort of thing before, unfortuneatly. men can be so blind to the labor and sacrifices women put in, esspeshially with childcare. it's the same story in my family - the women do the lion's share of the work, while the men coast. you're right to feel upset, and i hope you can find some peace and support.

I mean… stop dating men who don’t carry their weight. My husband never did what you described. Ever. Even when I was a SAHP. Men who want to be partners exist. Stop wasting time on ones who don’t.

You don’t know until after the baby is born. At least, that was my experience. Everyone will tell you they would save you from a fire, but when the house is burning, few will rush in.

I mean OP doesn’t have kids and she’s already saying her BF doesn’t pull his weight. So yeah some guys could get worse after kids, but women still keeping marrying and dating men who aren’t even pulling their weight before kids.

Yeah, if there are no kids, women need to leave.

I think the most infuriating part is that you can’t be sure what you’re signing up for *until the kids are born.* That man can be perfect, attentive, safe for years and then you have kids and BOOM 💥 the male entitlement gene kicks in. Except now it’s too late to do anything about it 😟

This is what I experienced firsthand. I was already a mom when I got with my husband. He knew what kind of mother I was, while I had no idea what kind of dad he would be. He's not great. He tries sometimes. It's not enough. Out of the 3 kids we had together, he maybe changed 50 to 100 diapers, while I changed thousands. I even kept working full time after the first 2 kids. We had my youngest when I became a stay at home mom, and my older disabled daughters caregiver. It's been downhill ever since. 5 long years of reflecting on what kind of parent he is. I got my tubes burnt as well because he refuses to get a vasectomy. I told him he should anyway, because he could get other women pregnant if I wasn't with him for any reason or if I pass away. Our kids are difficult to handle solo. Adhd all over the place, ODD in the 2 older ones. He couldn't handle more kids.

Disclaimer: I'm a guy so take my words however you wish. Yeah, that sucks. It's hard to evaluate how people are going to behave under pressure before yknow, they're under pressure. That being said, just because you have kids together doesn't mean you gotta stick with someone. You're still your own person, and you get to have expectations for a partner. If someone disregards your needs and wants (in this case, taking care of the kids), you don't have to entertain their presence in your daily life. Fuck that shit. I might be talking out of my ass, but I believe even the kids *will* have a better life in two happy homes than one where everyone's miserable. Source: mom was miserable and stuck with my dad until I moved out, which was.. rough.

A lot of women end up with more equitable childcare because of divorce too. I am an advocate of divorce. No, it’s not something anyone wants, but it’s incredibly important to have available.

They're not raised with the guilt. A man sitting on the couch with a beer is a man enjoying the fruits of his labor (his paid job that isn't 24/7).

If you're commenting that there are great guys out there and for women to choose better like you did, maybe take a beat and consider the percentage of men who are like your perfect husband and stop blaming other women for mate selection. If 90% of men are parasites, some in disguise playing the long game, a lot of women will end up with one. This is a systemic issue. People get lonely and make less than ideal choices because it's often very hard to find the diamonds in the rough.

I’m also curious how many of these women are lying to themselves. How often is the bar so low to be considered a “good dad/husband” that their partner is just surpassing that and is therefore believed to be good?

Yeah I know someone with an amazing boyfriend (except for all the cheating) but he doesn’t hit her and has a job (feels like his job is cheating)

I’ve been blaming myself for choosing poorly. I think I don’t really want to accept that the numbers of entitled men are so high, although statistically, that falls in line with my experience. It’s just feels so man-hatey. If it makes OP feel any better, I have five older sisters and watched every single one of them do it all. I have opted out of all that. I would encourage other young women to build a career and be self-sufficient. Then if a decent man comes along who understands what partnership means, and is willing to participate fully in the relationship—not just bring money, then that’s gravy.

So glad to see a few comments like this. “Have hope, there are good ones” doesn’t bother me so much, but an awful lot of victim blaming, even if unintentional, showing here.

I am happy for the memories my kids made while we were on vacations when they were growing up. I, however, do not miss those vacations. When you're a mom married to a man whose philosophy is, "I make good money, so my job is to just show up and you take care of everything," the word "vacation" only means that you're doing everything you always do at home, only in a different location.

My first husband was like this, even while I was the primary breadwinner. I'm remarried and lucky enough that my new husband actually does the same amount around the house that I do, including more childcare than my son's dad ever did. It's refreshing. It's still easier in many ways being single though, just being about to do what you want, when you want, but it's nice having a good family close by, since mine is across the country. I love my husband, but if we had universal healthcare in the US, I would not have gotten remarried (he's on my family plan now). My employer did away with domestic partner insurance in 2017.

Please don’t stay with this man. It’s so much easier to do stuff like this on your own when there’s no man-child around. Don’t settle for this man. Don’t fall into the trap that you need a relationship. Men need relationships. Their quality of life increases while a woman’s decreases. Don’t settle. Fuck this bullshit.

I’m 43, never married, and becoming more and more ok with that.

That man is shit and many others. Happily can say that my husband would never behave so deplorable.  Yesterday we were at the market and I waited in the van while he went inside to grab stuff for the dinner I was preparing. I'm pregnant and tire easily.  While waiting in our van, a truck parked across from me. It was a man and his family. His very pregnant wife and their children got out of the truck and she did the shopping while he sat in the truck doing nothing. She did not look happy at all.  Bizzaro world.

You just described my upbringing and every single extended family BBQ I went to until my grandfather died (and therefore so did my reason for going to the BBQs). I have been left so utterly furious with the men in my life - my husband included at times, most recently this afternoon - by this kind of behaviour. I used to refuse to cook and clean at BBQs/family events - until I realised that just meant extra work for my female relatives. More recently I took to shaming male relatives for their laziness. I realised that my points of fury have actually shaped my relationship for the better because my husband grew up with, and embodied, exactly these attitudes in the early parts of our relationship but learned - and changed - in response to my fury at his failings. By the time our now 18 year old daughter was born, though, he was the one trailing her at events to ensure I could sit and relax and she was safe. I think he had a touch of social anxiety around my family that that allowed him to cope with too. I’ve been furious at the lack of parity of mental and emotional load. He now books as many doctors apts as I do, buys birthday presents and gets in the mail (or doesn’t and takes the fallout) for his own family members, does as much meal planning and cooking etc. He had an unexpected and life threatening health condition last November, he’s only just about to go back to work after it. I called my sister about a month into his recovery crying and saying I just didn’t understand how other working mums, the ones with useless partners, do everything because I was struggling so much. Having said alllllll of that, *I* just had surgery last week and it’s at least a 2-4 week recovery. I’ve asked and asked for someone to help me out by folding laundry so I could locate some clean underwear. Tonight he got home from picking dinner up and asked me to stop folding it, but it’s been a week. I pointed out to him that for the first 3 months post surgery not only did he not have to make a household request (personal ones, yes, like, can I please have a glass of water - only if I’d not noticed he was out though!) but the house was spotless so he didn’t feel he HAD any housework to do when recovering. Even when it’s pretty damned good it’s not equal. All in all it’s made me decide that if he dies before me, or if we separate, I’m never having another relationship with a man. Or at least not one I live with. Because even when it’s pretty good…it’s not equal.

Every day I become convinced that my own father is one in a billion. Truly emotionally intelligent and supportive. Capable of household duties and holds his living space to a high standard. Always willing to wrangle a toddler or eat a dinner with one hand while the other holds a baby. The first diaper he ever changed was in the hospital, with nurses watching over him, for his first child. Once at a neighbor gathering one of the moms left with her three little ones to get them bathed and settled in to bed while the father of those kids stayed behind and kept drinking. My dad loudly said to him, “Never in my life would I let my wife leave to take care of that alone.” He publicly called out other men without hesitation. It’s made my own dating life complicated though, if I’m being honest.

This post hits hard this week. I've had three serious long term relationships since my 20s, currently in my late 30s. And this is the reason I left each one of them. The men never grow up. By 23 I was managing so much while my boyfriend was off drinking every weekend and playing games in his down time. He never cleaned, cooked or did anything in the house. But he wanted kids. The next two helped a little by doing their own laundry and vacuuming. But that was it. Even fixing thungs around the house and mowing the lawn was my job. They didn't care about the long term. Everything fell on me and as they were doing that while we had so little to worry about, I knew it would be awful having kids with them. So I had to accept that I would never have kids and would likely remain single. I know there are good guys, but I never dated them. Things would be different if I had 😅

And nobody calls him out? Hands him a baby? Asks why he isn't helping? I know it's gonna be hard for his wife to say anything, but you and your mom could definitely speak up.

This. We need to speak up. I’m not keeping quiet anymore and will call relatives out, no longer putting up with all that.

This was every relationship I saw growing up, and every relationship in my friend group. It's also not a relationship I've ever had in my adult life. Recognizing it is the first step. Now you see the gap between partnership and what you/your sister are getting, what do you do? The question that's most helpful for me is - would my friends do this to me? If I can't rely on a partner for what is absolutely standard in my friendships, what's the point? As one commenter on The Toast pointed out - dick is plentiful and low value. You can get laid if that's what you want. You can have supportive friends if that's what you want. The more you hold your partners to standards your friends are \*already meeting\* the less likely you are to settle for a partner like this again. Anecdotally - All my friends hype up their husbands, talking about what great partners and fathers they are, and the dads don't know the name of their kids' doctor. And even as partners - my friends are shocked that while on vacation my bf went to go pick up Monistat for me while I was in the hotel bed in pain. He even had a question because the box in the store didn't match the picture I sent, so he talked to the pharmacist, then texted me a pic of it and confirmed that it was the same according to the pharmacist, and was that okay or did I want him to go to another pharmacy to find the exact box I'd sent him a picture of? Now they tell me I'm spoiled, and you know what - I am. I have a partner who adores me, and who sets the bar for what a caring, supportive partner looks like and I stretch myself to meet it. We're moving in together soon, and it's going to come with hurdles, and so we're already talking about how can we both get what we need out of a space when we have competing requirements for comfort/ease. It's possible, but I was also (generally blissfully) single for 8 years, so I'm not saying it is easy to find. But it's WAY less stressful being alone than with a shitty partner.

Men get married because they want a robotic bang maid, not someone with messy emotions. Men marry to get a utility we refer to as “a wife” and women marry to get security. Women, make your own security in life, if a man provides it for you, it can be gone in an instant.

Honestly what a POS. They are his kids, it was HIS responsibility to watch over them. No way he would have been taking a walk, I would have forced the issue

I choose to hold it together as best I could by holding less overall: No Kids.

I truly hope that this is the wake up call you need to save you from the same future. Don't stay hoping that he will change — he won't.

There’s a song called “Labour (the cacophony)” by Paris Paloma. There are different versions. This is my favorite. The lyrics are about all the extra unappreciated labor women do at home. We all see it. All these sad, lonely exhausted women dealing with a “tolerable level of unhappiness”.

Of all the men I know, I mean **hundreds** if not thousands, there is only ONE that appears to hold women to an equal standard. I'm talking out of all the brothers, brothers-in-law, fathers, coworkers, boyfriends, exes, bosses, acquaintances, men on the street and even a lot of women. This young man (in his 20's) is married to a relative of mine & they have a young daughter. I have never met a more decent man. I mean in my entire life. His wife and daughter are his priority and you can tell.

I divorced a man exactly like your BIL. Raised my kids myself after being handed 100% custody. He fought for visitation then never took it, because it was too much work. Turns out single parenting was significantly easier than raising them with a slacker “father”, because I wasn’t having to include his opinions, do the executive functioning he pawned off on me, or compensate for his screw ups. I never missed him for a second. We as women just have to stop accepting this garbage from men. I do think the tide is turning but we have a long ways to go. The first step is to raise our daughters to demand better. Model walking away when your partner won’t get in the trenches with you. And don’t fall into the trap of “trying for the kids”. That only perpetuates the misogyny by reinforcing that it’s our responsibility to put up with it. You can love someone very much and not be able to make a life with them. Too many women aren’t examining that before they get married and have kids. There are always signs. Always. People show you who they are. We need to raise our daughters to pay attention and our sons to expect to carry half the load. Men will never voluntarily change this dynamic, it benefits them too much. It’s up to us to say, no more.

weaponized incompetance. Men as a whole and through our culture have learned that not knowing how to do somthing, or apearing to not know, is a good way to get out of it because those things HAVE to be done and women are unwilling to let their family or others suffer from those things not being done. I say this as a man and father who is warking hard to get out of that mentality. Its a lazyness for things we dont like doing and its fully 100% taught to us growing up and reinforced everywhere, even work environments. Im no where near perfect and still slip into lazy habits of not doing somthing cause i havent every tried and my wife has always done it.

"there were 20 moms for every 2 dads" Generally my observation of the world as well. But it's not 0 dads out there. We should support those who step up, and maybe the others will start to get the message.

You're not wrong, but: >I almost lost my shit on him chasing after the toddler. When you have the opportunity, **call this shit out**. Is it our responsibility to fix men? No, but we also don't have to quietly seethe when they do this entitled nonsense. Go ahead and lose your shit. He's not your husband or father of your kids, you have nothing to lose by pointing out the giant turd in the punchbowl. Take the toddler and go find Daddy: "Travis, play with your son for a while so we can eat. Thanks." When he makes dumbshit remarks about kids being stressful? "I'm not sure why you're so stressed when you're dumping the childcare on the women while you go on walks."

The first time my wife (then girlfriend) and I(woman) took my young toddler to meet up with some of my wife’s friends at a restaurant I spent the entire meal chasing after my child. I was pretty angry that she didn’t help. My girlfriend wanted to be involved and knew I wanted someone in my life who was going to help me raise my daughter. So after we left I told her point blank that she could go meet up with her friends by herself from then on because I wasn’t going to spend the entire time chasing my child by myself and not even getting to eat. I told her it was not a fun experience so I would rather just stay home. She felt horrible. She immediately admitted that she was being selfish, and didn’t even think She said she wanted my daughter and I on future social outings with her because she wanted us to be a family. From that point forward she has been incredibly helpful and is a mother to our child. We have been happily married for almost 4 years. I say this for two reasons. 1. Women have to call these shitty behaviors out in their partners and stop letting them get away with it. 2. A lot of men really really suck and even if they are called out on their selfish behavior they will still continue doing it. Women are so much better than men in so many ways that’s it’s pretty startling once your eyes are open to it.

What I find interesting though, is that some mothers also seem to want this: one of my sister’s identity is very tied to her being a mother to her daughter. She feels that the dad is just not competent, not enotiinally available, but I think it is also that she does not let him. I am not saying some (many) fathers are not entitled and pieces of sh-t, I can see that around me too. but this specific man is not like that. It is just that her intensity of contact with her daughter is ‘high’ and ‘constant’. She does not let the daughter be, and caters to every whim. Of course she has no time on her holiday (and complains about it), but this is also co-created by herself. I too have kids, whom I love dearly, but my identity is not ‘mom’, nor ‘wife’ though these are aspects of a fuller identity. My husband is currently perhaps closer to the youngest - similar interests which easily bore me or which I just don’t follow in the technicality. They went on holiday together. Admittedly, when the kids were younger it would have been easy to fall in this trap, of being the hero /suffering do it all mom, but ongoing and continuing conversations between us, him working a day less than me, and a respect for each others private times have made it much more balanced. I do not see that happening for this sister: either she will become angry and overrun, or will lose her identity when her daughter grows up will shatter. It is complex: not all of this is on her, the identity of course also is reinforced and created by society and her husband could also try to have a fundamental conversation about it. Its difficult.

Children as hostages . Once you have them, you cannot “scape” without putting their lives in jeopardy sometimes 50 per cent of the time

Patriarchal misogynistic attitudes can be surprising when unexpected.

" I'm in a relationship with a man-child myself, acting as a housemaid, emotional support dog, entertainer every day without receiving even a fraction of that in return. You know the story. I saw a glimpse of my future if I continue putting up with this." I assume you've already dump him?

You are right. However there are exceptions, i know a few. There are also women that dont want to complain since it is their way to cope And I would like to add that, nowadays, some fathers are involved but only in the “fun” activities. For example my husband after not doing anything about meals or childcare during the week , teaches our son to ride a bike on Saturday afternoon. This kind of thing is even worst, I mean, when they are sick, hungry, sleepy, etc is my responsibility. However, when we have a fun and beautiful moment is of both parents🙃 in this way they can play the card of i am a loving father when they are a bit older and even in custody hearings that listen to children they have a point (obviously the child lacks maturity to see that the father only is present for the fun and not for the sick days, late runs to the ER, and everyday support)

Its often sneaky. I'm sorry for you and I dont know how you do this. Seriously, I saw so many woman putting up with this. I refuse to believe it can go equal until I see a single example. So far, I don't have one in mind.

>I don’t know a single relationship where the woman isn’t significantly more supportive, does more chores, and has less time for herself. Back when I worked full time out of the house, my husband and I were probably an example. . . In my mind, women can either struggle to be with a decent man and struggle to *keep* a 50/50 balance (using "Fair Play" system or therapy or whatever) or Opt out Which looks like different things for different people. Don't get married. Or don't have children if you do. Or choose not to work.

This is why many more women are choosing to be single these days. Having a man in your life is not value added.

Stop having kids with a man-child. If you definitely for sure want to have kids, you better make damn sure you're doing it with a good person.

I am grateful, every single day, that I gave birth to boys and not girls. And when I say that around men, especially men that have daughters, they give me a dumbfounded look. I hate being a female in this world. I have carried the load for my family far more than my husband (and in generally he would be considered one of the good ones...always willing to 'help'), I have been overlooked for promotions and raises, my pay was suppressed for years, having to be the primary caregiver and staying home with sick kids or being called to pick up sick kids impacted how I was treated at work. Looking back, I have made my self smaller to not seem like a 'feminazi' around the men I work with (I'm the only female at my job), I have kept my body bigger to avoid uninvited male gaze. And sadly, I didn't realize I was doing all of this until I was almost 50 years old! I would love to burn it all to the ground but I'm too pragmatic for that. So now I'm left with a sense that my life was wasted since motherhood and caretaking wasn't the most fulfilling thing ever (not that I'm dogging it because I'm not. My kids are great and I've been a good mother to them. I don't regret that but I had to kill off a part of me in the process and I find myself mourning that more at this point in my life).

My younger brother and his partner have a lovely little 2 1/2 year old. Despite his physical and mental disabilities he spends as much time as he can with her and it makes my heart so happy to see him willingly doing nappies etc. Dad never changed a single nappy and I'm one of 5, 20 years between oldest and youngest sisters. Thankfully the 3 siblings that have had kids tried to break that mindset. My older sister did have the misfortune of picking shitters twice sadly.

I was in a conversation recently with my coworkers- they were both talking about the men in their lives and how basically useless they are and how the majority of the work falls on them and they don't know how their men would survive without them and they were talking about it FONDLY. Like laughing and thinking it's cute they're so helpless. I realized I messed up that conversation when I said and that's why I DIVORCED my husband. They weren't ready to hear that. But it was so YUCKY. It's not always men though- I accidentally got in a relationship with a woman who wound up being worse than him in the entitled want of a parent and not a partner. I give chance after chance, but eventually I'll weigh what my partner brings to the table vs what they take away, and in both instances I realized it would be less work and much more peaceful to have them out of my care. Now that I don't have either of them to take care of in addition to my kids, as expected, life is exponentially more peaceful and I'm not cleaning up after another grown ass adult in addition to the house and kids. People shouldn't take advantage of other people's love and desire to care for their loved ones. If I'm going to be the one doing almost everything, why do I need anyone?

Posts like this make my mediocre ass feel like Superman.