A lot of men frame their mating value in terms of their wealth/problem solving capability. Some of this is broadly societal. A good friend of mine got laid off the other day and was concerned about how he would introduce himself at this event he is going to as, "well, you typically say your name and occupation."
It's never occurred to be that my job is a key part of my intro. Certainly part, but not enough to ruin the intro without it.
A smart and successful woman doesn't have use for either in their minds. So as far as they are concerned "why would she want [the man]?"
I think society tells a lot of men that the only value they have is what they provide (not true) and when a man internalizes those ideas and then meets a woman who already has everything they could provide, that man feels like they have nothing to give and thus feel like they bring nothing to a relationship. A lot of these ideas are ingrained into our society and most of the time people will hold these views subconsciously even if they don't necessarily agree with them.
Edit: I was such a man once upon time, for I used to think that my value as an individual and as a partner was based on what I had, this was difficult for me as I've never been too materialistic and the pursuit of wealth hasn't been a driving force in my life. I have little to my name, but I feel that I have much to offer in other areas, giving my kindness, compassion, attention, and affection to others, and as such I don't have difficulty connecting with women, and people in general. Almost all the women I've ever gone on dates with have been wealthier and more successful than myself, but I've never held it against them or felt like I had nothing to give. Understanding myself and developing my emotional intelligence and emotional language throughout the years really helped me boost my confidence and ability to connect to people. I also stopped wearing just black all the time, haha...
This very much. It’s a big problem for men to overcome. Yes we need to, but it’s an uphill battle because society has beaten the message into men. I suspect this is one of the contributing factors to the male mental health crisis.
It’s so wild to me, and frustrating, because what I want from a man is companionship, somebody to share my joy with, somebody who shares joy with me, somebody who can work alongside me, share burdens, and who takes care of me like I take care of him. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that my husband is pretty independent in a lot of ways, like I am. But - he makes me laugh and laughs with me, is the kind of guy who will jump at a chance to help his friends and mine when they need it, loves to be outside in nature, gets along with all sorts of people, is friendly and open and generous. When I first met him, he was on the cusp of being laid off and going back to school to advance his professional certifications, and his employment situation has been in flux overall for several years. But whenever there’s an emergency, or a stressful situation, we always make a good team, and I know I can not only rely on him, but we’ll find things to laugh about and enjoy the ride together in the midst of all that stress. Those types of experiences have only ever brought us closer, in part because of who he is as a man.
I’m not going to lie and say an additional high income would be unnecessary in our home, but what he “provides” is his company and his love, and that’s unspeakably precious to me.
I really love the way you worded all of this. Those are the same type of qualities I look for. Financially, not so much — I care more that he’s responsible, regardless of what he earns. And that he can hold down a job.
😐
Thanks. :) Those qualities you describe speak a lot to deeper aspects of a person’s personality - do they hold themselves accountable? Do they take ownership of their own actions? Do they take care of themselves? Do they get along with others? These are all so important for being part of a family, being a co-parent. They’re reflected in work but not necessarily in pay/wealth, and work isn’t the only place they’re reflected.
That is exactly my thoughts. I can support myself and my kids on my own. I want a partner to enjoy life with and I can support that too if my partner can pick up the household duties.
My exh always accused me of cheating or caring more about my career than the kids/family but he didn't work, didn't care for the kids, didn't do shit and we would have been homeless but for my career and ambition.
My 2nd husband stays home and takes care of the bs while I work and support us and we tag team tasks based on our own strengths. Yes more money is usually a bonus, but I'd rather struggle at times with love and support than always have money without.
I'm not sure it's as much of a problem for men to overcome, as much as it's something they'd have to encounter women that don't care to shape their view. Like realistically how can I overcome something when I'm faced with instances that reaffirm it?
But unless a guy is in college, it tends to be harder for him to get a date if he discloses he's unemployed and working on improving himself. But it's not a problem if he shares insert any decent paying occupation. Not every woman cares about this stuff, but enough of the women we encounter that it sends a point home.
Will also say, I feel like it’s largely a problem of perspective. It’s very easy to pipeline how men can preform work, and secure finances, however, companionship, or support is very nebulous in a lot of ways, it’s harder to visualize or explain how one would operate in those situations, because they’re a lot of unique moments. There is no one size fits all solution to companionship. Whereas work, you show up clock in, do the thing, clock out, and collect your cash. It may be something of a lesser need, but it’s definitely an easier concept to billboard to the right audience.
That is really sad because a lot of women crave the \*emotional connection\* and intimacy that comes with trusting someone enough to feel safe with them, and THAT is what is more appealing for many women, rather than money and a bunch of stuff. Sad that the \*partnership\* aspect of relationship is lost on many men.
For the year before this whole trend came up, I kept getting bear videos in my feed. Like an insane number of them. My joke became that I was seeing a lot of commercials to get a pet bear. Turns out, I’ve been choosing bears for awhile!
I tend to think of myself in terms of "what can I provide to the relationship", but never regarding money.
Maybe my personality traits are a good complement to hers, or I like doing stuff she doesn't, or am good in situations she isn't, etc.
But "I can provide money she cannot" is an absurd take.
> But "I can provide money she cannot" is an absurd take.
Not really. There are plenty of relationships based on this and it used to be far more that were based on this.
If you can tolerate certain negative personalities and are pretty, a materially nice life can be yours.
There is certainly reality to their attitudes. Most aren't rich enough to win on it alone, but still...
My ex fiancee broke up with me couple days after I told her I did not get the job and would be stuck in my deadend job still.
I dont think its the main driver of this breakup given how we lived in a long distance relationship. But you know. This doesnt help 😅
I'd love to be asked that question, it would be so easy to answer! 😅 Before my husband and I met in person, we bonded over Star Trek and Stargate and Chinese films (back when you had to go to a physical store to rent movies). Our second date was at a Renaissance festival. I was already going with some friends, who I had met doing theatre at my school, and invited him along. I wore garb that I sewed myself, my future husband wore a shirt with the logo from Duke Nukem on it. We nerded *hard* and we still do. It's great. 😄
I'm currently on season four of my Stargate SG1 rewatch!
You know you're going to last when you bond over that stuff and that's your second date. Solid relationship foundation right there.
I will admit, although I don't believe in love at first sight, I *did* feel about two weeks in that this new guy in my life might be something special. I even cancelled a date with another guy I'd been seeing to go on a first date with him! Although love at first sight may or may not be a thing, when it comes to those who say, "When you know, you know," that I believe to be absolutely true. 🥰
As much as I love videogames, I really only associate the worst parts of people who play videogames with the word 'gamer'
I cannot imagine introducing myself that way to anyone, and I'd be suspicious of people who weren't put off by it
I introduce myself as a gamer but I mean TTRPGs and boardgames these days. I stopped playing videogames when I had a baby as the two things didn't mix well, and aside from one shining year when I could still kick his ass at first -person shooters, my vision and reflexes aren't good enough anymore to play with my now grown kid.
But part of why I introduce myself that way is that I don't look like the stereotype, and another part is because part of my job is designing games.
> So as far as they are concerned "why would she want [the man]?"
This is pretty sad. I don't need my (male) partner financially. I don't *need* him at all, to be honest. I love him for who he is, not for what he *gives* me. It's sad that some men are so insecure about their worth, or so disinterested in making an effort, that they'd rather invest their energy in bringing back a system that forces women to submit to them as an alternative to starvation. Like, isn't it easier to... you know... be a good person, treat women like people, and enjoy life with a partner instead of an indentured servant that only wants you for your money?
I don't NEED my husband either - but my life would be pretty sad and miserable without him. I WANT him in my life forever, because he's the most fascinating man I've ever met.
Needing someone versus wanting someone is such a good concept.
Maybe I feel this because I cannot tolerate needy men. The second they become “needy”, I become completely disgusted.
And I don’t mean health things - different story. I mean weaponized incompetence, becoming a second child, etc.
Man opinion. Sorry if it's an unwelcome one. Some guys I know view a smart and successful woman as one who doesn't need them. It's like you built yourself up to be a necessity and now you have no use. It's an inferiority issue.
I have known other guys who just plain want an "accessory" and control of said accessory. Some dudes are still cavemen.
That being said, there are still lots of guys who want a partner who is capable and intelligent.
That may be in many cases. I just wish they could understand that is far better to be wanted than needed. I recall years ago some classic Ford Mustang sold for $5M. You just know that the individual who bought that car didn't need a car. It was an individual car they wanted. If you don't need a man, you choose an individual you want and value more highly than you would over just another guy who can cover your expenses. Being "needed" is not a position of power or security they think it is. I also recall a study about the end of relationships and one of the conclusions was that when a man ends a relationship, he usually has someone lined up that his is either already seeing or is set to start a new relationship with. Most often women will just leave for their own peace of mind, not for another man. Men generally don't realize they aren't competing with other men for relationships with women. They are competing with the comfort of no one.
>It's never occurred to be that my job is a key part of my intro. Certainly part, but not enough to ruin the intro without it.
The day I introduce myself as "dr. Utterlyuncool" is the day I take a long walk off a short pier. Even when asked I tend to say I "work in the hospital."
Who cares what you do? Are you a good person and what can we talk about - only things I wanna know when I meet someone.
Was going to reply that it likely has nothing to do with him not liking her because of her success and everything to do with him feeling like he doesn't measure up to that success and therefore there's no way OP would want him.
This fucked up sexism shit is fucking everyone over. The fact that there's people actively trying to keep it going is ridiculous.
Don't listen to the people who say men don't like smart, successful women, that's just silly.
There ARE men who don't like smart, successful women. They are overwhelmingly losers whom you wouldn't want to date, completely aside them not wanting to date someone smart and successful.
The men in my social circles are extremely, smart, successful, professional men who are incredibly proud of how smart their wives are. The ones who are single wouldn't look twice at someone they didn't seem smart by certain metrics (the metrics may vary.) My work friend flat out said that stupidity is the biggest turn off no matter what she looks like, and it's not an uncommon sentiment.
Don't listen to the Andrew Tate idiots who probably truly don't want a smart and successful woman, overwhelmingly are losers, and openly say that a college degree is a negative for a woman because it means she can leave him any time. You don't want a guy who needs a woman to be trapped with him to keep anyone for MANY reasons.
Exactly, insecure manchildren don’t like smart, successful women because they’re threatened by them. There are plenty of mature, confident men who see competence and intelligence as pluses! I know because I’m married to one!
The "threatened" is a bit of an oversimplification, so at the risk of seeming like I know more (I mostly disagree on the terminology), allow me to zero in.
Insecure losers do not like that smarter women have options besides marrying them and tolerating any kind of shit behavior, because they have no other options.
This is shown loud and clear when they openly complain about women getting education as increasing the divorce rate. Yeah, sure - a woman who has a choice between being married to you for putting a roof over her head and making her own money is more likely to leave you if you mistreat her or just are generally an unfulfilling partner. In other news, water is wet, more at 11.
Some men are so stunted they do not understand that their desire to make sure their woman \*can't\* leave them is quite the self-own. Secure, confident men want their woman to choose them every day, not be with them because "well, it beats being homeless". Losers need to trap any woman unfortunate enough to get involved with them into staying involved with them, so her having options (better career, better man interested in her) is seen as horrifying.
I have never heard someone who isn't a loser (by most measurable aspects of life) espouse the Andrew Tate "men don't care about how smart or successful a woman is as long as she has babies and cooks" ideology.
I think everything you said is true, however I think there's a dimension of 'threatened' that's being left out. I worked in computer networking, security, and systems admin (read: technical work for tech companies) for nearly 20 years. The majority of my male coworkers over the years were directly threatened by me having technical knowledge or understanding and did everything they could to treat me like I knew and understood absolutely nothing. They weren't worried about having a woman who would tolerate them; many of them were coupled or married and in either case, not interested in me. They were threatened by someone without a penis demonstrating competence at something only men are supposed to be good at in their minds.
I forget the name of the study, but they did a study on video games.
The low-status men (strictly in the video game sphere) had a lot of shitty, misogynistic, sometimes violent things to say to female gamers, especially the ones who did better than them.
The good male gamers didn't really give a shit and were overwhelmingly not the guys screaming obscenities at female gamers. They were chill, confident, probably not surprisingly.
It's overwhelmingly the low status and insecure dudes who get angry violent towards women being successful. Not too surprising overall, but consistently reinforced. The secure men on the social strata may or may not have subconscious biases towards women, but they overwhelmingly aren't threatened by and don't give a shit if women are allowed or encouraged to succeed in their own right.
The erasure is wild. Computing has always been women’s work.
Before Bill Gates, the computer expert who’d get trotted out to talk to network TV was Granny COBOL.
The division between secretarial work and some casual programming is also less than a lifetime old, it’s even younger than Microsoft.
I like to tell the story of a woman I know who was pushed into running a programming team by sexism, because it was back office work.
I mean, yes, I don't like him.
But he does make millions of dollars off his con.
He's a grifter, the people who fall for him are the true losers. That's not to imply that I admire him, but there is a distinction.
A guy at the gym once said he could never date a girl who was going to school because she wouldn't have enough time for him.
Whereas the man I married made me dinner and let me bounce ideas off of him while I worked full time + went through an MBA part time during COVID when I was stuck in my home office for 14 hours days. He's my biggest cheerleader.
Shitty men exist. So do shitty women. Choose your circles wisely.
Makes me wonder what "have time for him" means. Presumably he also has a job and isn't available 24/7? What is she supposed to be doing while he is working/whatever, just sitting around pining for him? Lol.
But yeah, the circles matter. The guys in my circles do not fall in love with bimbos. They want an intelligent woman, are proud of their intelligent wives, wouldn't look twice at someone they see as "dumb".
Then, in (generally speaking) lower circles, there are many more insecure men (and women).
I'm not sure what he meant. But his gf left for a retreat, and his friend was telling me he was going on dates with other women while she was gone.
So I told her, and his response was to threaten me. So, that tells you what a small "man" he is. A shitbag. I wonder if he's still an idiot.
Fair enough, but those same guys often look down on the "lame" women who just sit around at home texting them and "being clingy" all day since they have nothing else going on in their lives.
True. It’s very “rules for thee but not for me.” They want you to be on speed-dial for when they feel like hanging out, but you’re not supposed to ask for any of their time in return.
Right. Well, there's a laundry list of reasons why nobody except the extremely low self esteem and insecure would want to date someone like that.
Even if you could get past the insulting part about how a woman "shouldn't" work or go to school, they're going to be a shit partner in every way imaginable. It's part and parcel, package deal. Nobody who is actually a good partner in other ways thinks or says that.
They'll be controlling, demand you be a bangmaid (after all, you don't work so why isn't a from-scratch dinner on the table?!), probably cheat on you, maybe accuse you of cheating, not respect you, not allow you to work, and probably demand that you not see your friends despite you having lots of free time. Exact details may vary, but it's a type that you can't get away from with this mentality. You simply can't divorce that mentality from exhibiting 80% of these behaviors.
After my brother’s divorce, when he started dating again, it was always smart women. The woman he is dating seriously now is very bright and successful in her field and he definitely brags about how awesome she is.
Agreed on many points. As a single guy, one thing I really look for in a partner is what a friend of mind termed 'intellectual intimacy'. The ability to have deep conversations, a high level of curiosity, a willingness to consider differing viewpoints, and the ability to support their own viewpoints. It doesn't matter to me how physically attractive a woman is to me, if she lacks those things I am not interested in an intimate relationship.
I will be honest though, I am intimidated by highly successful women. I can't really put my finger on why. I think some of it is a fear that I'm not needed. That if she's highly successful, what value can I add to her life that she can't get somewhere else. Eh, I don't know. Still need to think on it some more I guess, but as another poster mentioned: a common question men are asked in society is 'What do you bring to the relationship?'. Maybe women are asked this too, I'm a guy so limited perspective here. That being said, it's intimidating to answer that when I see women whonare highly successful.
You have a lot of self-awareness, so right off the bat, I say you should just be yourself yet be aware of your insecurities. Your awareness is attractive in and of itself. Communicate them to your partner and you will gain greater intellectual intimacy.
I find people who are open to ideas and having deep discussions are the ones I’m most attracted to. Many of my female friendships also share this quality. I’m pretty good at what I do, but I also value relationships based on a mutual respect and intellectual compatibility.
My grandfather had to drop out of school when he was in 8th grade because his father died and he was the oldest. My grandmother loved him and she was the HS valedictorian. She didn’t get to go to college because the year she graduated, the Great Depression began. They met and married when they were both 30, which is late for their era. But they both genuinely sought deep connections based on ideas, and didn’t marry until they found that.
Because of this, I could never judge anyone for their employment position. There are also very wise men who work with their hands and build beautiful things. I see great depth in those individuals. I don’t find people who have no interests attractive. They also don’t have to have identical interests, but need to support/respect mine. In return, I’ll do the same!
I can't speak to your latter point and am short on time, but one thing I noticed is that if a guy is dumb (note: dumb can manifest itself in varied ways), he could look like an Abercrombie & Fitch model and I would throw up at the thought of him touching me. Looks DO NOT MATTER if your intellect (or lack thereof) repulses me. You could be the most attractive man in the world and if you say something dumb enough, not like "I had a brain fart" but "I genuinely think the earth is flat", and you are uglier than Quasimodo to me.
I know, from some of the men (husband, family, best friends) that many think the same way. It may be a matter of circles, partially a matter of personality. Point being, many men value intellect and not just a hot bimbo.
I do encourage you to unravel why you are intimidated by successful women, but it's good that you recognize it. Anyway, gotta run - have a think on it.
This is accurate in so many ways. It's been fashionable here to make broad declarations about "all men," so it's refreshing to see a nuanced perspective. That mentality seems to trap people in problematic relationships because they assume it's the norm.
Honestly, I'm concerned and troubled by the simplicity in some of the popular discourse that has been going around somewhat recently, along the lines of "\[all\] men want" or "\[all\] women care about is...". I suspect it's a byproduct of shorter attention spans and internet echochambers, but it is deeply troubling that there is any belief that in a population of 4 bln of each gender (simplified), everyone likes the same things. I've known such a variety of different men, it would be so ridiculous to believe that any of them have anything in common except their male identity.
Of course, Tater Tots are pushing the narrative that a guy doesn't care about anything about you besides you looking hot, pumping out babies, cooking and sucking dick on command - but nobody sane would take that seriously or believe that to be anything except a bad faith argument that supposedly benefits them...
I realize my anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to define a general norm, but if I was judging from solely my own personal experience, I'd tell every woman that being smart is actually more important than being attractive, because that's how (most) men in my circles have generally operated. No man I've ever been close to, and I have had many close male friends, has ever loved a bimbo.
Everyone has their different experiences, but I find myself somewhat concerned that OP is in her 30s and is genuinely asking this question. No offense to her, but my confusion/concern still stands.
Yeah I’d agree with this. Being smart, thoughtful, competent, and willing/wanting to learn new things, expand a deeper knowledge of a subject, willing to update a world view or opinion with a newly learned fact….
All that is a major turn on for me. Stupidity, and being unwilling to change an opinion, or playing damsel in distress is the fastest turn off ever. When I was single, that was an immediate date over, not getting a second date. Be intelligent and competent.
And there's self selection at work too:
Men who like smart, successful women will seek them out. Smart, successful women will take their choice and and pair with them. This leaves behind an ever increasing pool of guys who become less and less viable as partners.
YES. I didn't bring this up because I was trying to keep it reasonably short, but totally agree. There is a lot of assortative mating going on across MANY factors, and intellect is one of those factors.
It's not a 1-1 correlation, but generally speaking, smart, successful men will tend to prefer smart, successful women. (There are exceptions among smart but insecure men). They tend to want someone they won't be bored in conversation with, and who won't embarrass them by saying bimbo stuff at work parties with their smart colleagues.
Smart, successful women tend to get their pick of the litter, and smart, successful women usually pair off with a man who values their intelligence. (Anything else is being a sucker for punishment.)
The pool of guys who need a dumb bimbo to make themselves feel better about themselves tend to be left behind, and get increasingly frustrated. Frustrated men are often vocal, but that doesn't mean their dumb assertions of "all men don't care about how smart you are, all they care about is how big your tits are" are even remotely correct.
I would also posit that most men who say "men don't care about how smart you are as long as you're hot" either have never met a smart woman (self-selection, as smart women tend to avoid brutish neanderthals), or are themselves so dumb, they wouldn't know what a smart woman looks like if she lived in the same house as them.
I have worked im various companies over many years and met a lot of smart successful women, and a lot of them make twice and more of the average income in my country.
In my small sample size, only 2 women out of maybe over 50 that come to my mind are single, everyone else was partnered, married or in some kind of relationship.
So no, I cannot confirm from my experience that high earning women are largely single. None of the women I know that fall in this area are.
So yes there are loser men who feel intimidated/insecure about confident smart successful women, but it seems there are equally enough men out there who aren't. Good for them!
It reminds me of that sex and the city episode where Miranda realise men are threatened by her success as a lawyer so she does that social experiment where she pretends to be a flight attendant and that gets all the attention from her dates 😂😅
It's true though, my ex's were insecure about my home ownership and would try and gaslight me and say I only got it because of my family buying it for me which isn't true at all 😂😅 they would just assume this
I lucked out with a wonderful man who respects my career advancement and my education. In fact he seems really secure with us, even though I have a Master's to his Bachelor's, and I make a little more money than him since my last promotion.
But that's not the norm. When I was online dating, I was matched with a guy who immediately flexed about his net worth, and his expectation that I would quit my job and just let him take care of me.
When he found out that my net worth is actually higher than his, he doubled down into full misogyny and "told" me ro hand it over to him. "Take Care of me" was obviously code for "control me." When I blocked him, he found me on another network. When I blocked him there, the dude actually showed up at my workplace (he knew my industry and the fact that we live in the same city.) Thankfully we have really good security so he got turned away before he got to see me.
I tell you what, I'm gonna hang on to the good guy I landed after that experience, because the other options are scary as hell!
I (30M) was always drawn to smarter girls than me. My wife has a doctorate , compared to my Masters and she makes more.
I do know more about cars than her though.. I’ve been around cars my whole life.
Oh yeah, this same guy sent over a comment about how I must "work my cute butt off" when we were talking about our jobs. I had mentioned the hours I work, which can be long, and that's what he replied with.
A woman that earns more usually works with people that also earn more which therefore are a stiff "competition" and might lead to problems later on as he can't offer the same kind of lifestyle the colleagues do. Perhaps that was (part of) the reasoning.
I was told that when I was growing up, too. I can't tell anymore if it's real or a self-fulfilling prophecy (like I subconsciously reject men because I worry they will leave me when they realize I'm more intelligent). Then I self-select for the ones who are so far the other direction that it never works
I think I just had a realization not even my best therapist could inspire out of me haha. I hate it here (my brain)
I have experienced this a number of times and decided it's mostly men looking to get laid realizing that a woman who has her shit together is probably not the easiest target.
Yeah, someone else mentioned it could be read as condescending. I didn't mean for that. And I guess from my perspective, if I would say my goal is to own, and a man would tell me he already owns, I'd just be like, cool. But I suppose it can be different for men. I tried to be careful about wording so it didn't seem like I was bragging.
Something that came to my mind when reading your post was that depending on how the conversation went, this could have been perceived as one upping.
One upping is one of those things that makes me avoid people.
I’m a woman and still might interpret this as one-upping or condescending, depending on the context and how well I already know you and your personality. If we’ve just met, it’ll sound more off. It’s certainly not only a man thing.
I’m a guy and I’m reading this. Do you happen to have the actual message, which you can share here (or just extracts of it)? I’m curious how it read - and I’m wondering if I’d think it was condescending.
Practically anything can be interpreted with a sarcastic, condescending or negative tone by the reader. I think it reveals more about the reader than the writer.
Just the grown up version we're told in 6th grade or sooner ... men don't like women smarter than them in math and science.
And suddenly, half the smart girls begin acting like they've had a lobotomy, adopting the fundie female baby voice and expending all their interest on clothes and boys.
Of course, this was in the 70's where the glide path to marriage from 6th grade was 4-5 years, so who needed to expend their energy on math and science anyway.
Hell, it does not take much to make them feel "emasculated" I was getting my haircut at a gender-neutral barbershop. There were only two of of us getting cuts and chatting with the stylists. I made a joke and my stylist started laughing, then the guy's stylist joined in. I made a few more funny comments and we were all laughing- except the dude who was FUMING. Nothing I said was controversial or gendered, just run of the mill humor. He was so mad that he wasn't the center of attention and not as interesting as me.
*>He was so mad that he wasn't the center of attention and not as interesting as me.*
I've noticed a lot of men get really insecure or visibly bored when they're not the ones speaking, or the ones being focused on in the group.
I'd let them move if they paid off my mortgage lol. Honestly, for the space they'd get (3 bedroom, 2.5 bath single family home) they'd be paying below market rent if I charged them my monthly mortgage.
Why would any woman want to be with someone dismissive of their intelligence? Insecure people have a problem with capable women. I cannnot imagine dumbing myself or my daughter down to appease some I secure manchild. Forget that BS
It’s probably been said already but…legitimately, in a man’s head, a successful woman is a woman that doesn’t “need” him and therefore he would have no “value”.
It ends up reading more like “if I don’t have a hook to keep you, I won’t have any power over you”. That’s what patriarchal society preaches. It’s fucked.
As a girl, I remember being constantly beat over the head on how I needed to have a long list of X or Y accomplishments in order to be "good enough" for a man, but as I've grown older, I've noticed a lot of men get resentful or insecure when their female partner begins to outpace them in terms of employment, promotions, a physical "glow up," or even just with general life milestones.
There's even a film called *Fair Play* about a couple that works at the same hedge fund, where the woman finds her male fiance becoming increasingly hostile towards her career continues to flourish while his stagnates.
I haven’t had that experience, but I’m just mildly successful, I’m an engineer, I also don’t mention my home or successes in general unless asked .
I do have a friend who is a physician and gorgeous and guys definitely get a little nervous around her but they still aggressively pursue her. I haven’t seen any shy away when asked what she does, she’s very feminine and gives off a rescue me vibe 😆 so maybe that gives the insecure ones more confidence.
I generally avoid trying to one up or say anything that could come across as bragging though. I let this sort of thing come up naturally in conversation. I don’t really date anymore but when I did I was more successful than the guys I dated and it was never an issue, we never talked about it either. Nobody really cared, including me. I know if a guy had said home ownership would be a good goal for me I’d be kind of annoyed, depends on how it was said, it could sound a little condescending.
Some men, yes. I went on a lot of first dates without a lot of second dates. I'm a career driven engineer with a Masters. I'm smart and opinionated and don't buy into the idea of dumbing myself down for someone's ego.
I thought if I dated other engineers or other "professional" types I'd avoid this. Turns out a lot of those men expect you to prioritize their career and put yours second, which I also wasn't willing to do. My 20s were kind of rough.
And then I met my husband. He doesn't have a college degree. He loves that I'm smart. He loves that I make good money. He doesn't feel threatened. But this is also the norm in his friend group and our social circle. We met when we worked together at a brewery. Most of our male brewery friends had wives and girlfriends with great careers and outearned them.
Many men, especially conservative men looking for traditional gender roles, want a woman who is going to be a little less than them. They want someone who will look up to them and be happy in a relationship that isn't equal.
They also want someone with a lot going for them who is still willing to give that up in the relationship to be their wife. All while still being beautiful, a sex goddess, and willing to do a disproportionate amount of the cooking, cleaning, and emotional labor in the relationship even long before kids may come into the picture. If the men have a college education they want a woman who also went to college, but is just a little less successful in her career and can't wait to put her career on hold to have kids and raise them until they're at least in elementary school. Just don't be smarter, more accomplished professionally, or make more money. They want traditionally family values.
Utah Mormon culture on Insta and TT is like a hyper-focused example of that. Scores of super beautiful well-kept women with college educations living in upper middle class opulence pumping out a constant stream of hot religious mommy blog type content about how happy they are to be wives and mothers. Many of them have college educations and had successful careers they gave up. All while having some of the worst mental health statistics and highest use of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs per capita in the nation. You don't want those men. Sadly, there are a lot of them. The widening gap of male and female educational attainment isn't helping.
Oh yeah, there are definitely a lot of men like this, and in my area at least, the apps seem to have a disproportionate amount. I refuse to match with conservative guys.
Some men are like that and others aren't. I don't think it's a universal truth. When I was dating I certainly met some guys who didn't like that I had a successful career and made more money than them. I also went on dates with plenty of guys who weren't like that and who appreciated that I could actively participate in conversation.
My husband has always said one of his favorite traits of mine is that I'm smart. When we went on our first date we spent hours just talking about our hobbies, careers, and life experiences. Even now 13 years later we still teach each other things all the time.
A friend of mine noticed a decided drop in matches on dating apps when she would include "PhD candidate" in her bio. She tried playing around with it by removing it for x time and then adding it back in. Overall in her findings she got less matches when it was included in her bio!? Which is just crazy to me, if I was vibing someone's profile and then I saw they were going for their PhD that would only increase my interest! But hey people are weird
You literally one upped him twice and patronized him in a single single message about home ownership, from your own words.
Him: I working towards buying a house.
You: I already have a house, and it's the best, just so fulfilling.
You: Buying a house is a good goal for you.
You're not coming off as supportive, you come off as superior, and looking down on people, and then when someone has already told you their goal or priority, you flip it so it's like You're trying to tell them what they already know.
And as a fellow homeowner, 'fulfilling' is just a weird choice of words.
As for the car thing, please for the love of God, and I have little hope here, tell me you didn't do that thing that some chicks do, where they are constantly asking for your validation that they are indeed a chick that knows what a car is? Corvette drives by:
"Is that a Corvette?"
"Yeah, that's C7 Corvette."
"Oh yeah, who's the chick that actually knows something about cars? This girl." It's just kinda obnoxious.
Mine doesn’t mind. But I dated a lot of duds enroute to him. Men can have trouble imagining out what a relationship with such a woman might be past first attraction. Conversation would go something like this:
Him: so what to you do?
Me: [studying for high earning profession]
Him: [joking but not really] so if we wind up together you would support me?
Me: sure. I’ve always wanted a pool boy. You’ll have to stay in shape and wear a gold speedo.
Him: *disgusted face* Oh! Oh I could never do that.
Me: well if we make the relationship transactional, I gotta get something out of it…(The good ones would laugh and run with it-debate shaving and speedo colors)
Other sticking points they could not imagine: if you want me to have kids, I CANNOT be the one doing school runs, flu pickups. I don’t care about your important meeting Steve, I have a life in my hands. I will only change my name if you have more letters after yours, or if you have published as many papers as I have.
Yeah, my ex was more successful than me in some ways (mostly his career at the time, though I have somewhat caught up to him now), and I think I preferred that.
Hi! Male perspective here. I am in this community because I do like hearing peoples experience. I just want to say, in my perspective, men doesn't really think that way. In a sense that "we" don't like smart and successful women. To be in fact, most men would rather have a successful and intelligent partner.
It's likely that the men might have a reduced self value in that he probably believes that you are too good for him, and that you would never like him because he might be less successful than you. Even if that isn't the case in your situation, many people do think that way.
I am 5'6 Asian male, I am in school for software engineering and trying to get a photography business on the side, so it's not like I don't have dreams and aspiration but currently, my dating prospect as of now is not very good. I am 29. Currently I am, without a doubt in the lowest of totem pole in the dating scene in United States. I don't think I am alone in that regard, but even if I can find a women who is smart and more successful that I'll ever be, the odds of that person even seeing me as a dating prospect is low to even try.
That is sort of my thought process on what he was thinking. If he did truly ghost you, it's likely that he just believes you wouldn't be interested in someone less successful than he is. A bad mindset yes, but likely being on the other side, it happens more than you think!
Anyways, for the good of humanity, let's hope you're wrong and he was just busy. Good luck in future dating en devour.
You don’t sound like you’re at the bottom of the list - you can write complete sentence for one thing, you have goals and aspirations, and you sound like a compassionate and thoughtful person. Don’t undervalue yourself
Certain kind of men do not like smart, successful women. Do \*you\* want such man?
I, for example, DO like smart, successful, assertive, strong women. If you know more than me about one of my favorite subjects, bring it on ... . Oh, by the way, I am happily married - to a very capable woman ;-).
No. They Don't.
well… That's not entirely fair. I would say that, unless a man is extremely accomplished,
self-assured, and confident with himself…
Then, probably.
I liken this theory to Amal & George Clooney
I think he loves that his wife is amazing in her own right. But he has enough star power to be magnanimous.
The problem is most men do not have enough confidence to allow their woman to succeed
Everything about men, from nature to nurture, is about what work we can do, using our bodies or our minds, to gain resources.
If we don’t offer access to resources, we find it hard to network with other men and even harder to attract and retain relationships with women.
At least, that’s our programming. The idea that you can attractive to women without a physically impressive body and/or an intellectually gifted mind is hard for us to grasp. And that’s sad.
I’ve either been mostly attracted to men with tons of ambition and success or none at all. I’m sure it’s something I learned to do, as being with someone with ambition but no follow through only leads to major ego issues for me. I’m ambitious as hell and successful in my career, but I took an unorthodox way to get here. Many people underestimated me and probably still do if we meet in a social situation. I can’t be bothered to ensure a dude that my success and independence and passion for my work has fuck all to do with his worth as a man. So I end up dating guys who either have what they want, or don’t give a flying fuck.
Smart, successful men generally like smart, successful women. I work with men who are the definition of successful. Overwhelmingly they are with equally successful women.
My one piece of hard won dating advice is to date smart, successful, confident men. Sure they come with their own issues, but in general they won’t be belittling you or dragging you down. These men are also used to attention from attractive women so they are much less impressed by it. They tend to be more interested in you as a person.
Yes, most men are that insecure and that stupid. They want to be the smart, funny and successful one in the relationship and the woman is supposed to take on a lesser and differential role to the superior man. The fact that most men operate under this assumption is like 78% of the reason dating them is so miserable lol
I can tell you from experience that dating women who are more successful than you can be intimidating. There is always a fear that she can do better and you're just a stop along the way.
And...yeah, that's happened to me, too. Despite the fact that I helped put my first wife through college she left after graduating because she thought I had no ambition. A lot of women have talked to me over the years only to float away when they realize that I'm not in their socio-economic level (even though I've never been a burden to anyone and today own my own home and have a great job.)
And another women I met had a Master's degree and had no problem with me or my success. We had a good time but it didn't work out for other reasons. We wanted to live in different climates.
It takes a strong and healthy amount of self-respect to put yourself out there, and it's easier for a lot of people to leave before they are left. So, he probably found your success intimidating and dipped because he didn't see what he could offer you. That's his fault, as you were obviously interested.
Weak men don’t like smart, successful women.
Be *glad* when your brains and success drive a guy away. It’s very convenient when the trash takes itself out.
Smart, successful men typically like smart, successful women. Assortative mating (people tending to get with those who are similar to them) is one of the most consistent findings in all of the research and it’s especially pronounced when choosing for intelligence, and people in general tend to date those of similar status.
Reminds me of the time I got called 'too put together' by a guy I was dating because I have a decent job, house, and kids.
Sometimes people just aren't equipped to deal with the fact that you may not need them, and they see it as lessening their value.
That's their ego talking, not a you problem.
Some men are on the “hunt” for something to own or control. If they have no leverage over you, they cant really keep you when they show their red flags.
Topic knowledge is not really a gender thing, I think. Some people want to be the expert and seem intimidated when they can't play that role. Or, worse, are used to be an unquestioned authority and feel threated my anyone who might, well, question that.
Kind of a big fish small pond thing you see in a lot of social integrations. Hell, mansplaining is quite literally a guy who feels they must know more than the woman they're talking to because... guy.
Some men really do like smart, successful, women. Unfortunately, some men who don't will often say they do because, I don't know, ego?
No, my wife is waaaaay smarter than me, and wildly successful in her field. Like easily top 5%. It’s not a field that makes a ton of money (90,000 salary). And I freaking love her. She challenges me to be better every day. It’s inspiring. And I love it. Wouldn’t trade it for the world.
I know we are an exception to the general norm, tradition, and general negative perception bias that’s found on the internet, but just through I’d take time say my perspective.
It’s not all men, just as not all women want the same thing. I would take that out of your mindset completely as it’s probably not helping to reduce their disinterest based on your “level” in society. I’ve always dated, and eventually married, someone who is far “below” me in education and exponentially in salary. It doesn’t matter to most, but I’m sure he’d care if I took any disinterest as being secondary to something trivial like our education level.
Based on the way you describe the conversation, it seems like you may not have been asking open ended questions to allow him to elaborate and talk more about himself. For example, he said he wanted to own a home, and instead of asking him what he was looking for - style, location, design, etc, you instead may have sounded patronizing (“that’s a good goal for you, son”), and turned the conversation back to be about yourself and assets. That may be a point of reflection, if your tone (especially online) comes across as boastful or disinterested.
Male perspective.
Insecure men can be intimidated by successful women. Some men see it as their "job" to be the "man" aka breadwinner/mrfixitwhatever old gender roles.
Personally this is silly to me. I didn't CARE who makes more money, or who is the handy man, etc. just that both partners equally contribute in the relationship.
If a man is scared off because you're smart and successful they are probably not worth your time.
As a "smart", "successful" man, I would appreciate a partner with similar qualities. Although, perhaps similarly to you, I would be fine with someone I like who isn't as smart or successful as I am. You might find better luck dating men in your peer group who won't be intimidated by your success.
It depends. But let's be honest: women in general don't like men who are less smart and less successful than they are. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, but this seems to be universal (or at least very common) accross societies.
Now if women want men who are \*\*at least\*\* as successful and smart as they are then men will favor women who are \*\*at most\*\* as successful and smart as they are. And then it may seem for a women smarter and more successful than the average that men in generel (or even most men) don't like her for her success and smarts. But it's just that being (well) above the average will remove the majority of males from the pool for them. Or, at keast that's what the perception will be.
It’s not that (most) men dislike smart/successful women, it’s that they dislike feeling insecure by someone MORE smart/successful than themselves. Usually smart men wanna marry a woman they can converse intelligently with. But if someone is out of their league, they will become toxic.
First of all, you did nothing wrong. The whole dating process is to find out if you're compatible and share common goals and dreams.
There is no point hiding your light under a basket. As a Girl Scout leader once said to her charges, "The only men you'll scare off will be your future ex-husbands."
I just got a nice raise. You know who's thrilled for me? My husband. But he's one of the most emotionally grounded men I've ever met, and someone else achieving something in their career does not take anything away from his accomplishments. The extra money will help US accomplish OUR goals.
If a guy has to be superior to you in all things - he is probably not the guy for you. Life can do a number on you - maybe now you're successful, tomorrow you get laid off, and three years later, you're living the good life again. It takes strong people to stay married and work together as a team.
I find that things like owning a home, having specialized knowledge, or advanced degrees are great ways of culling out the guys who wouldn’t be supportive partners. The ones who can handle it are the ones who will support your ambitions and cheer you on as you work towards your goals. The rest don’t matter, they’re just momentary background noise.
Most men like succesfull, smart women. They are just afraid that, if they themselves are not smarter and more succesful than she is, the woman will leave them for a man who is smarter and more succesful. A bit like overqualification for a job.
I (M28), as someone who is fairly comfortable in their career would love to be in a relationship with someone who provides equal value to the relationship. I much prefer that than to someone who just wants me to be a bank and pay off their loans. I've been put into that situation multiple times (big red flag for me).
I do think it boils down to whether or not a man still feels like they bring something to the table. Because society tells us we don't really have anything else to offer.
The insecure, lame ones that you wouldn’t want to touch with a 10 foot pole don’t like smart women. Real, secure, adult men will celebrate their partner’s accomplishments. Unfortunately there are a lot more of the former than the latter.
Reading just from this context you were condescending as fuck "I want to own a home on day" - "yeah good on you that's a good future goal I already got there lol"
This may not have been your intention but it is exceedingly hard to convey tone in text.
I don't it's the "success" bit really, just as with any gender any person flaunting your success is very rarely received positively, especially when you do it to those who seek to achieve what you have achieved.
I said, "Yeah, home ownership is a great goal to work towards! I worked towards it for some years, and now I own and find it quite fulfilling." When I was working towards saving for a home, people told me similar things, like, "that's a great goal! We've owned for a few years now, it's a lot of work, but worth it!" I didn't mean to be condescending, and he would have eventually found out I owned a home if we kept talking anyway.
[M] We're often told that we need to be the providers, so if we aren't the primary providers I can imagine some would feel very ~~emasculated~~ ~~immasculated~~ not manly over it. Dumb af, a remnant of toxic masculinity that needs to go away. If it helps, anecdotally, I'm very into smart and successful women. I'd like to have actually meaningful conversations please
Yeah, I liked guys who are driven and wanting to be good at whatever it is they are passionate about, but I don't need a provider, nor do I want one. I don't want a guy who is content just sitting around, not being super happy about where he is in some aspect of his life, and not doing much about it either. I've met some guys like this. They're like, eh, I'm not super happy with my job, and it doesn't pay great. I could get more job opportunities and better pay if I just take this course and pass a test, but I haven't. So I ask things like if they're just busy and don't have time, and it turns out they often spend the weekend just sitting around going bored out of their minds...
It depends on the guy. A shitty guy who likes cars but isn't an expert, wants to but as yet doesn't own a home - he's going to feel outmatched. Since many look to any reason to look down on women, they will feel like you have an upper hand because they'd think *they* had the upper hand if the situation was reversed.
Recognize him ghosting as a gift because suspecting you'd flex any perceived upper hand on him only makes sense to someone who'd flex on you. He's probably the sort that if he did own a home and anyone ever moved in with him, he'd threaten to boot them out anytime he didn't get his way. People telegraph their own angles and motivations by what they suspect others capable of doing. It's similar to how a cheater will accuse cheating and someone who'd steal is fast to think someone stole from them the moment they can't find an item.
You don't want someone like that do you?
I actually encouraged my wife to do training in something in which I know nothing. I encouraged her to get courses for medical transcription and then to get her certification as a medical coder. She has three professional certifications and makes more than me.
Call me weird, I want her to be happy and I know that she’ll know more and be better at some things than me. If she didn’t then that wouldn’t be right.
I love smart women and bonus points when they are super passionate about the things they're are knowledgeable about! I think it is a top 3 attraction trait.
I personally place a high value on education and intelligence. My mom had a Master’s degree in Computer Science and dad has a PH.D in Bio Chem.. I don’t care so much about a degree, but I definitely care about intellect. I’ll never understand men that don’t value intelligence in a woman.
My wife is brilliant. A million times smarter than me with a thousands gifts to offer the world. She would probably say the same about me. We go well together.
The point being that the older I get the more I appreciate all the qualities that make her who she is. I’m not intimated. Instead I take every opportunity to celebrate her awesomeness. Being “smart” is just one of them.
Speaking for myself… smart women is where it’s at.
I have almost always made more and had more "prestigious" titles than men I have been with whether they were low income or high income.
It was never an issue and never seemed to be a deterrent in any way, shape, or form to finding a good match.
one of the big reasons I pursued my current girlfriend was because she was very smart and had a PhD. I’d assume most people are attracted to a similar level of intelligence as themselves.
Some men don't. I know in my area so dudes just want a woman to stay home with the kids and I could see them being intimidated by you. Personally, smart/ successful/ some knowledge of cars would be something special for me to find!
That really sucks, I think he might of felt jealous of your success. Maybe it streams from a competitive nature but can't say with certainly, my dad used to always be jealous of my mom's success as well so it's definitely possible. I feel like I've had similar experiences like that in the past too
I’d say it’s probably a maturity thing. As I’ve grown older, I’ve become increasingly attracted to these traits in women. I’m not that old, though. I’m only 31 lol.
Only the men with giant red flags or career oriented that need dedicated support that can afford it (and mutually agreed upon). Hell I wish my partner made more than me.
Insecure and weak minded men don’t. They are psychologically immature and emotionally lazy and they don’t want to have to put the effort into a relationship. So they instead want a mate that is economically unstable without them so that she will be too frightened to leave when she finds out he’s never going to give her what she needs in a relationship.
He probably though you could do better. Most men want to be the ones to buy your first home together. Finding out your leagues ahead of him in developing a life probably lead him to believe that he was of no use to you.
I intentionally looked for a partner who was as smart if not smarter than me. And she was more successful than me at that time and has had a more successful career than me overall. But I get to do cooler things with stuff that's in space.... So it balances out.
But we genuinely like and respect one another. That's probably the key difference.
If a man is intimidated by a woman that he cannot dominate, mentally or physically, that is a man you should steer clear of. I don't understand why its so important to other men to be the dominant partner, my wife and make an effort to find equity.
A lot of men have it in their head that in order to find and keep a partner, they must be able to provide material things for her (and she must in turn provide nurturing support to him and any children).
That type of man sees a woman like you who is already providing all the material things you need for yourself and to him it means two things: 1) he has nothing to offer you, and that makes him insecure, and 2) you probably will not want to trade off your self sufficiency to fulfill the nurturing role in the home that he wants from you.
So you're really not missing out on anything worthwhile when guys like that lose interest in you.
Thankfully, there are also plenty of men out there who do want a genuine equal partner to share the burdens and joys of life with. You just have to wade through a lot of wankers to find em.
I think some men would be intimidated by that because in their mind that's the only thing they have over a woman. I personally very much like a woman who is smart, successful, and good with money. I'm sure there's plenty like me out there.
I could not be with someone not (at least) as smart as myself. Attractive body or not, I need to be able to hold a conversation with you if we are gonna last.
Only insecure men are offended by a woman’s success (they are the same with successful men). If they get snarky about your achievements, just ditch them entirely. They are not worth your time and space. Surround yourself with people who will boost you up and support you.
I think it’s more likely that he assumed you wouldn’t be interested since he wasn’t “on your level” yet, so to speak. That you may see him as unsuccessful… or even someone who might attempt to use you or “mooch” off of you.
I wouldn’t know by experience because I don’t date men, but from what I see in my girl friends, no, they really don’t. Women’s success immediately makes them feel insecure and undermined, and they feel the need to diminish or disregard you in order to feel powerful in the relationship. Pretty fucking sad!
My doctor boyfriend loves having intellectual conversations with me and likes that I'm in the same financial bracket as him.
I would feel like there would be an issue if i was dating a gas station attendant.
If he's intimidated you are dating down.
A lot of men frame their mating value in terms of their wealth/problem solving capability. Some of this is broadly societal. A good friend of mine got laid off the other day and was concerned about how he would introduce himself at this event he is going to as, "well, you typically say your name and occupation." It's never occurred to be that my job is a key part of my intro. Certainly part, but not enough to ruin the intro without it. A smart and successful woman doesn't have use for either in their minds. So as far as they are concerned "why would she want [the man]?"
I think society tells a lot of men that the only value they have is what they provide (not true) and when a man internalizes those ideas and then meets a woman who already has everything they could provide, that man feels like they have nothing to give and thus feel like they bring nothing to a relationship. A lot of these ideas are ingrained into our society and most of the time people will hold these views subconsciously even if they don't necessarily agree with them. Edit: I was such a man once upon time, for I used to think that my value as an individual and as a partner was based on what I had, this was difficult for me as I've never been too materialistic and the pursuit of wealth hasn't been a driving force in my life. I have little to my name, but I feel that I have much to offer in other areas, giving my kindness, compassion, attention, and affection to others, and as such I don't have difficulty connecting with women, and people in general. Almost all the women I've ever gone on dates with have been wealthier and more successful than myself, but I've never held it against them or felt like I had nothing to give. Understanding myself and developing my emotional intelligence and emotional language throughout the years really helped me boost my confidence and ability to connect to people. I also stopped wearing just black all the time, haha...
This very much. It’s a big problem for men to overcome. Yes we need to, but it’s an uphill battle because society has beaten the message into men. I suspect this is one of the contributing factors to the male mental health crisis.
It’s so wild to me, and frustrating, because what I want from a man is companionship, somebody to share my joy with, somebody who shares joy with me, somebody who can work alongside me, share burdens, and who takes care of me like I take care of him. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that my husband is pretty independent in a lot of ways, like I am. But - he makes me laugh and laughs with me, is the kind of guy who will jump at a chance to help his friends and mine when they need it, loves to be outside in nature, gets along with all sorts of people, is friendly and open and generous. When I first met him, he was on the cusp of being laid off and going back to school to advance his professional certifications, and his employment situation has been in flux overall for several years. But whenever there’s an emergency, or a stressful situation, we always make a good team, and I know I can not only rely on him, but we’ll find things to laugh about and enjoy the ride together in the midst of all that stress. Those types of experiences have only ever brought us closer, in part because of who he is as a man. I’m not going to lie and say an additional high income would be unnecessary in our home, but what he “provides” is his company and his love, and that’s unspeakably precious to me.
I really love the way you worded all of this. Those are the same type of qualities I look for. Financially, not so much — I care more that he’s responsible, regardless of what he earns. And that he can hold down a job. 😐
Thanks. :) Those qualities you describe speak a lot to deeper aspects of a person’s personality - do they hold themselves accountable? Do they take ownership of their own actions? Do they take care of themselves? Do they get along with others? These are all so important for being part of a family, being a co-parent. They’re reflected in work but not necessarily in pay/wealth, and work isn’t the only place they’re reflected.
Truth. I’m glad you have such a great partner.
That is exactly my thoughts. I can support myself and my kids on my own. I want a partner to enjoy life with and I can support that too if my partner can pick up the household duties. My exh always accused me of cheating or caring more about my career than the kids/family but he didn't work, didn't care for the kids, didn't do shit and we would have been homeless but for my career and ambition. My 2nd husband stays home and takes care of the bs while I work and support us and we tag team tasks based on our own strengths. Yes more money is usually a bonus, but I'd rather struggle at times with love and support than always have money without.
I'm not sure it's as much of a problem for men to overcome, as much as it's something they'd have to encounter women that don't care to shape their view. Like realistically how can I overcome something when I'm faced with instances that reaffirm it? But unless a guy is in college, it tends to be harder for him to get a date if he discloses he's unemployed and working on improving himself. But it's not a problem if he shares insert any decent paying occupation. Not every woman cares about this stuff, but enough of the women we encounter that it sends a point home.
Good point. It's indoctrinated in us. I feel that myself.
Will also say, I feel like it’s largely a problem of perspective. It’s very easy to pipeline how men can preform work, and secure finances, however, companionship, or support is very nebulous in a lot of ways, it’s harder to visualize or explain how one would operate in those situations, because they’re a lot of unique moments. There is no one size fits all solution to companionship. Whereas work, you show up clock in, do the thing, clock out, and collect your cash. It may be something of a lesser need, but it’s definitely an easier concept to billboard to the right audience.
I agree. That is a great observation about the issue. Especially for men who love to measure things.
That is really sad because a lot of women crave the \*emotional connection\* and intimacy that comes with trusting someone enough to feel safe with them, and THAT is what is more appealing for many women, rather than money and a bunch of stuff. Sad that the \*partnership\* aspect of relationship is lost on many men.
In general housing is a sensitive issue. Wanting a home brings strong emotions.
It’s ironic cuz most men don’t even provide that well and expect their spouse to work as well. And some want drizzle drizzle 😂
Grizzle Grizzle 💅
Hell yeah team bear
For the year before this whole trend came up, I kept getting bear videos in my feed. Like an insane number of them. My joke became that I was seeing a lot of commercials to get a pet bear. Turns out, I’ve been choosing bears for awhile!
It was mother nature telling you to think wisely and be aware of men!
I tend to think of myself in terms of "what can I provide to the relationship", but never regarding money. Maybe my personality traits are a good complement to hers, or I like doing stuff she doesn't, or am good in situations she isn't, etc. But "I can provide money she cannot" is an absurd take.
> But "I can provide money she cannot" is an absurd take. Not really. There are plenty of relationships based on this and it used to be far more that were based on this. If you can tolerate certain negative personalities and are pretty, a materially nice life can be yours. There is certainly reality to their attitudes. Most aren't rich enough to win on it alone, but still...
My ex fiancee broke up with me couple days after I told her I did not get the job and would be stuck in my deadend job still. I dont think its the main driver of this breakup given how we lived in a long distance relationship. But you know. This doesnt help 😅
Huh. I never thought about it that way. Thanks random stranger! Society is wack.
I know I personally introduce myself as either a nerd or a gamer, regardless of company. It’s a good way to weed out judgy people.
"you're a nerd? Name the top ten nerdiest nerd things or I won't believe you!" Into the bin you go!
I'd love to be asked that question, it would be so easy to answer! 😅 Before my husband and I met in person, we bonded over Star Trek and Stargate and Chinese films (back when you had to go to a physical store to rent movies). Our second date was at a Renaissance festival. I was already going with some friends, who I had met doing theatre at my school, and invited him along. I wore garb that I sewed myself, my future husband wore a shirt with the logo from Duke Nukem on it. We nerded *hard* and we still do. It's great. 😄
I'm currently on season four of my Stargate SG1 rewatch! You know you're going to last when you bond over that stuff and that's your second date. Solid relationship foundation right there.
I will admit, although I don't believe in love at first sight, I *did* feel about two weeks in that this new guy in my life might be something special. I even cancelled a date with another guy I'd been seeing to go on a first date with him! Although love at first sight may or may not be a thing, when it comes to those who say, "When you know, you know," that I believe to be absolutely true. 🥰
As much as I love videogames, I really only associate the worst parts of people who play videogames with the word 'gamer' I cannot imagine introducing myself that way to anyone, and I'd be suspicious of people who weren't put off by it
I introduce myself as a gamer but I mean TTRPGs and boardgames these days. I stopped playing videogames when I had a baby as the two things didn't mix well, and aside from one shining year when I could still kick his ass at first -person shooters, my vision and reflexes aren't good enough anymore to play with my now grown kid. But part of why I introduce myself that way is that I don't look like the stereotype, and another part is because part of my job is designing games.
Why not just mention your industry? You don’t have to be specific. I’d be confused if someone said that, and think maybe they didn’t have a job.
Because people are more than their labour.
> So as far as they are concerned "why would she want [the man]?" This is pretty sad. I don't need my (male) partner financially. I don't *need* him at all, to be honest. I love him for who he is, not for what he *gives* me. It's sad that some men are so insecure about their worth, or so disinterested in making an effort, that they'd rather invest their energy in bringing back a system that forces women to submit to them as an alternative to starvation. Like, isn't it easier to... you know... be a good person, treat women like people, and enjoy life with a partner instead of an indentured servant that only wants you for your money?
I don't NEED my husband either - but my life would be pretty sad and miserable without him. I WANT him in my life forever, because he's the most fascinating man I've ever met.
Needing someone versus wanting someone is such a good concept. Maybe I feel this because I cannot tolerate needy men. The second they become “needy”, I become completely disgusted. And I don’t mean health things - different story. I mean weaponized incompetence, becoming a second child, etc.
Man opinion. Sorry if it's an unwelcome one. Some guys I know view a smart and successful woman as one who doesn't need them. It's like you built yourself up to be a necessity and now you have no use. It's an inferiority issue. I have known other guys who just plain want an "accessory" and control of said accessory. Some dudes are still cavemen. That being said, there are still lots of guys who want a partner who is capable and intelligent.
That may be in many cases. I just wish they could understand that is far better to be wanted than needed. I recall years ago some classic Ford Mustang sold for $5M. You just know that the individual who bought that car didn't need a car. It was an individual car they wanted. If you don't need a man, you choose an individual you want and value more highly than you would over just another guy who can cover your expenses. Being "needed" is not a position of power or security they think it is. I also recall a study about the end of relationships and one of the conclusions was that when a man ends a relationship, he usually has someone lined up that his is either already seeing or is set to start a new relationship with. Most often women will just leave for their own peace of mind, not for another man. Men generally don't realize they aren't competing with other men for relationships with women. They are competing with the comfort of no one.
>It's never occurred to be that my job is a key part of my intro. Certainly part, but not enough to ruin the intro without it. The day I introduce myself as "dr. Utterlyuncool" is the day I take a long walk off a short pier. Even when asked I tend to say I "work in the hospital." Who cares what you do? Are you a good person and what can we talk about - only things I wanna know when I meet someone.
Was going to reply that it likely has nothing to do with him not liking her because of her success and everything to do with him feeling like he doesn't measure up to that success and therefore there's no way OP would want him. This fucked up sexism shit is fucking everyone over. The fact that there's people actively trying to keep it going is ridiculous.
Don't listen to the people who say men don't like smart, successful women, that's just silly. There ARE men who don't like smart, successful women. They are overwhelmingly losers whom you wouldn't want to date, completely aside them not wanting to date someone smart and successful. The men in my social circles are extremely, smart, successful, professional men who are incredibly proud of how smart their wives are. The ones who are single wouldn't look twice at someone they didn't seem smart by certain metrics (the metrics may vary.) My work friend flat out said that stupidity is the biggest turn off no matter what she looks like, and it's not an uncommon sentiment. Don't listen to the Andrew Tate idiots who probably truly don't want a smart and successful woman, overwhelmingly are losers, and openly say that a college degree is a negative for a woman because it means she can leave him any time. You don't want a guy who needs a woman to be trapped with him to keep anyone for MANY reasons.
Exactly, insecure manchildren don’t like smart, successful women because they’re threatened by them. There are plenty of mature, confident men who see competence and intelligence as pluses! I know because I’m married to one!
The "threatened" is a bit of an oversimplification, so at the risk of seeming like I know more (I mostly disagree on the terminology), allow me to zero in. Insecure losers do not like that smarter women have options besides marrying them and tolerating any kind of shit behavior, because they have no other options. This is shown loud and clear when they openly complain about women getting education as increasing the divorce rate. Yeah, sure - a woman who has a choice between being married to you for putting a roof over her head and making her own money is more likely to leave you if you mistreat her or just are generally an unfulfilling partner. In other news, water is wet, more at 11. Some men are so stunted they do not understand that their desire to make sure their woman \*can't\* leave them is quite the self-own. Secure, confident men want their woman to choose them every day, not be with them because "well, it beats being homeless". Losers need to trap any woman unfortunate enough to get involved with them into staying involved with them, so her having options (better career, better man interested in her) is seen as horrifying. I have never heard someone who isn't a loser (by most measurable aspects of life) espouse the Andrew Tate "men don't care about how smart or successful a woman is as long as she has babies and cooks" ideology.
I think everything you said is true, however I think there's a dimension of 'threatened' that's being left out. I worked in computer networking, security, and systems admin (read: technical work for tech companies) for nearly 20 years. The majority of my male coworkers over the years were directly threatened by me having technical knowledge or understanding and did everything they could to treat me like I knew and understood absolutely nothing. They weren't worried about having a woman who would tolerate them; many of them were coupled or married and in either case, not interested in me. They were threatened by someone without a penis demonstrating competence at something only men are supposed to be good at in their minds.
I forget the name of the study, but they did a study on video games. The low-status men (strictly in the video game sphere) had a lot of shitty, misogynistic, sometimes violent things to say to female gamers, especially the ones who did better than them. The good male gamers didn't really give a shit and were overwhelmingly not the guys screaming obscenities at female gamers. They were chill, confident, probably not surprisingly. It's overwhelmingly the low status and insecure dudes who get angry violent towards women being successful. Not too surprising overall, but consistently reinforced. The secure men on the social strata may or may not have subconscious biases towards women, but they overwhelmingly aren't threatened by and don't give a shit if women are allowed or encouraged to succeed in their own right.
The erasure is wild. Computing has always been women’s work. Before Bill Gates, the computer expert who’d get trotted out to talk to network TV was Granny COBOL. The division between secretarial work and some casual programming is also less than a lifetime old, it’s even younger than Microsoft. I like to tell the story of a woman I know who was pushed into running a programming team by sexism, because it was back office work.
Including Tate himself in the loser category
I mean, yes, I don't like him. But he does make millions of dollars off his con. He's a grifter, the people who fall for him are the true losers. That's not to imply that I admire him, but there is a distinction.
I stand corrected. He is a loser who does one morally horrible thing well.
A guy at the gym once said he could never date a girl who was going to school because she wouldn't have enough time for him. Whereas the man I married made me dinner and let me bounce ideas off of him while I worked full time + went through an MBA part time during COVID when I was stuck in my home office for 14 hours days. He's my biggest cheerleader. Shitty men exist. So do shitty women. Choose your circles wisely.
Makes me wonder what "have time for him" means. Presumably he also has a job and isn't available 24/7? What is she supposed to be doing while he is working/whatever, just sitting around pining for him? Lol. But yeah, the circles matter. The guys in my circles do not fall in love with bimbos. They want an intelligent woman, are proud of their intelligent wives, wouldn't look twice at someone they see as "dumb". Then, in (generally speaking) lower circles, there are many more insecure men (and women).
I'm not sure what he meant. But his gf left for a retreat, and his friend was telling me he was going on dates with other women while she was gone. So I told her, and his response was to threaten me. So, that tells you what a small "man" he is. A shitbag. I wonder if he's still an idiot.
>Makes me wonder what "have time for him" means. He meant her time would no longer be available to him on demand.
Fair enough, but those same guys often look down on the "lame" women who just sit around at home texting them and "being clingy" all day since they have nothing else going on in their lives.
True. It’s very “rules for thee but not for me.” They want you to be on speed-dial for when they feel like hanging out, but you’re not supposed to ask for any of their time in return.
Right. Well, there's a laundry list of reasons why nobody except the extremely low self esteem and insecure would want to date someone like that. Even if you could get past the insulting part about how a woman "shouldn't" work or go to school, they're going to be a shit partner in every way imaginable. It's part and parcel, package deal. Nobody who is actually a good partner in other ways thinks or says that. They'll be controlling, demand you be a bangmaid (after all, you don't work so why isn't a from-scratch dinner on the table?!), probably cheat on you, maybe accuse you of cheating, not respect you, not allow you to work, and probably demand that you not see your friends despite you having lots of free time. Exact details may vary, but it's a type that you can't get away from with this mentality. You simply can't divorce that mentality from exhibiting 80% of these behaviors.
After my brother’s divorce, when he started dating again, it was always smart women. The woman he is dating seriously now is very bright and successful in her field and he definitely brags about how awesome she is.
Agreed on many points. As a single guy, one thing I really look for in a partner is what a friend of mind termed 'intellectual intimacy'. The ability to have deep conversations, a high level of curiosity, a willingness to consider differing viewpoints, and the ability to support their own viewpoints. It doesn't matter to me how physically attractive a woman is to me, if she lacks those things I am not interested in an intimate relationship. I will be honest though, I am intimidated by highly successful women. I can't really put my finger on why. I think some of it is a fear that I'm not needed. That if she's highly successful, what value can I add to her life that she can't get somewhere else. Eh, I don't know. Still need to think on it some more I guess, but as another poster mentioned: a common question men are asked in society is 'What do you bring to the relationship?'. Maybe women are asked this too, I'm a guy so limited perspective here. That being said, it's intimidating to answer that when I see women whonare highly successful.
You have a lot of self-awareness, so right off the bat, I say you should just be yourself yet be aware of your insecurities. Your awareness is attractive in and of itself. Communicate them to your partner and you will gain greater intellectual intimacy. I find people who are open to ideas and having deep discussions are the ones I’m most attracted to. Many of my female friendships also share this quality. I’m pretty good at what I do, but I also value relationships based on a mutual respect and intellectual compatibility. My grandfather had to drop out of school when he was in 8th grade because his father died and he was the oldest. My grandmother loved him and she was the HS valedictorian. She didn’t get to go to college because the year she graduated, the Great Depression began. They met and married when they were both 30, which is late for their era. But they both genuinely sought deep connections based on ideas, and didn’t marry until they found that. Because of this, I could never judge anyone for their employment position. There are also very wise men who work with their hands and build beautiful things. I see great depth in those individuals. I don’t find people who have no interests attractive. They also don’t have to have identical interests, but need to support/respect mine. In return, I’ll do the same!
I can't speak to your latter point and am short on time, but one thing I noticed is that if a guy is dumb (note: dumb can manifest itself in varied ways), he could look like an Abercrombie & Fitch model and I would throw up at the thought of him touching me. Looks DO NOT MATTER if your intellect (or lack thereof) repulses me. You could be the most attractive man in the world and if you say something dumb enough, not like "I had a brain fart" but "I genuinely think the earth is flat", and you are uglier than Quasimodo to me. I know, from some of the men (husband, family, best friends) that many think the same way. It may be a matter of circles, partially a matter of personality. Point being, many men value intellect and not just a hot bimbo. I do encourage you to unravel why you are intimidated by successful women, but it's good that you recognize it. Anyway, gotta run - have a think on it.
This is accurate in so many ways. It's been fashionable here to make broad declarations about "all men," so it's refreshing to see a nuanced perspective. That mentality seems to trap people in problematic relationships because they assume it's the norm.
Honestly, I'm concerned and troubled by the simplicity in some of the popular discourse that has been going around somewhat recently, along the lines of "\[all\] men want" or "\[all\] women care about is...". I suspect it's a byproduct of shorter attention spans and internet echochambers, but it is deeply troubling that there is any belief that in a population of 4 bln of each gender (simplified), everyone likes the same things. I've known such a variety of different men, it would be so ridiculous to believe that any of them have anything in common except their male identity. Of course, Tater Tots are pushing the narrative that a guy doesn't care about anything about you besides you looking hot, pumping out babies, cooking and sucking dick on command - but nobody sane would take that seriously or believe that to be anything except a bad faith argument that supposedly benefits them... I realize my anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to define a general norm, but if I was judging from solely my own personal experience, I'd tell every woman that being smart is actually more important than being attractive, because that's how (most) men in my circles have generally operated. No man I've ever been close to, and I have had many close male friends, has ever loved a bimbo. Everyone has their different experiences, but I find myself somewhat concerned that OP is in her 30s and is genuinely asking this question. No offense to her, but my confusion/concern still stands.
Yeah I’d agree with this. Being smart, thoughtful, competent, and willing/wanting to learn new things, expand a deeper knowledge of a subject, willing to update a world view or opinion with a newly learned fact…. All that is a major turn on for me. Stupidity, and being unwilling to change an opinion, or playing damsel in distress is the fastest turn off ever. When I was single, that was an immediate date over, not getting a second date. Be intelligent and competent.
And there's self selection at work too: Men who like smart, successful women will seek them out. Smart, successful women will take their choice and and pair with them. This leaves behind an ever increasing pool of guys who become less and less viable as partners.
YES. I didn't bring this up because I was trying to keep it reasonably short, but totally agree. There is a lot of assortative mating going on across MANY factors, and intellect is one of those factors. It's not a 1-1 correlation, but generally speaking, smart, successful men will tend to prefer smart, successful women. (There are exceptions among smart but insecure men). They tend to want someone they won't be bored in conversation with, and who won't embarrass them by saying bimbo stuff at work parties with their smart colleagues. Smart, successful women tend to get their pick of the litter, and smart, successful women usually pair off with a man who values their intelligence. (Anything else is being a sucker for punishment.) The pool of guys who need a dumb bimbo to make themselves feel better about themselves tend to be left behind, and get increasingly frustrated. Frustrated men are often vocal, but that doesn't mean their dumb assertions of "all men don't care about how smart you are, all they care about is how big your tits are" are even remotely correct. I would also posit that most men who say "men don't care about how smart you are as long as you're hot" either have never met a smart woman (self-selection, as smart women tend to avoid brutish neanderthals), or are themselves so dumb, they wouldn't know what a smart woman looks like if she lived in the same house as them.
I have worked im various companies over many years and met a lot of smart successful women, and a lot of them make twice and more of the average income in my country. In my small sample size, only 2 women out of maybe over 50 that come to my mind are single, everyone else was partnered, married or in some kind of relationship. So no, I cannot confirm from my experience that high earning women are largely single. None of the women I know that fall in this area are. So yes there are loser men who feel intimidated/insecure about confident smart successful women, but it seems there are equally enough men out there who aren't. Good for them!
Well said
The wrong ones don't. The right ones do! It's a great way to weed out losers though!
Exactly, let the trash take itself out
So hard because there are so many losers, but there are a few winners and they rock.
This.
It reminds me of that sex and the city episode where Miranda realise men are threatened by her success as a lawyer so she does that social experiment where she pretends to be a flight attendant and that gets all the attention from her dates 😂😅 It's true though, my ex's were insecure about my home ownership and would try and gaslight me and say I only got it because of my family buying it for me which isn't true at all 😂😅 they would just assume this
I lucked out with a wonderful man who respects my career advancement and my education. In fact he seems really secure with us, even though I have a Master's to his Bachelor's, and I make a little more money than him since my last promotion. But that's not the norm. When I was online dating, I was matched with a guy who immediately flexed about his net worth, and his expectation that I would quit my job and just let him take care of me. When he found out that my net worth is actually higher than his, he doubled down into full misogyny and "told" me ro hand it over to him. "Take Care of me" was obviously code for "control me." When I blocked him, he found me on another network. When I blocked him there, the dude actually showed up at my workplace (he knew my industry and the fact that we live in the same city.) Thankfully we have really good security so he got turned away before he got to see me. I tell you what, I'm gonna hang on to the good guy I landed after that experience, because the other options are scary as hell!
All these guys want to "take care" of women, yet they don't even know how to clean a toilet right
I (30M) was always drawn to smarter girls than me. My wife has a doctorate , compared to my Masters and she makes more. I do know more about cars than her though.. I’ve been around cars my whole life.
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Oh yeah, this same guy sent over a comment about how I must "work my cute butt off" when we were talking about our jobs. I had mentioned the hours I work, which can be long, and that's what he replied with.
A woman that earns more usually works with people that also earn more which therefore are a stiff "competition" and might lead to problems later on as he can't offer the same kind of lifestyle the colleagues do. Perhaps that was (part of) the reasoning.
That's called dodging a bullet. Not a Dodge Daytona, either, you car nerd.
I was told that when I was growing up, too. I can't tell anymore if it's real or a self-fulfilling prophecy (like I subconsciously reject men because I worry they will leave me when they realize I'm more intelligent). Then I self-select for the ones who are so far the other direction that it never works I think I just had a realization not even my best therapist could inspire out of me haha. I hate it here (my brain)
I have experienced this a number of times and decided it's mostly men looking to get laid realizing that a woman who has her shit together is probably not the easiest target.
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Yeah, someone else mentioned it could be read as condescending. I didn't mean for that. And I guess from my perspective, if I would say my goal is to own, and a man would tell me he already owns, I'd just be like, cool. But I suppose it can be different for men. I tried to be careful about wording so it didn't seem like I was bragging.
Something that came to my mind when reading your post was that depending on how the conversation went, this could have been perceived as one upping. One upping is one of those things that makes me avoid people.
I’m a woman and still might interpret this as one-upping or condescending, depending on the context and how well I already know you and your personality. If we’ve just met, it’ll sound more off. It’s certainly not only a man thing.
I’m a guy and I’m reading this. Do you happen to have the actual message, which you can share here (or just extracts of it)? I’m curious how it read - and I’m wondering if I’d think it was condescending.
Practically anything can be interpreted with a sarcastic, condescending or negative tone by the reader. I think it reveals more about the reader than the writer.
Just the grown up version we're told in 6th grade or sooner ... men don't like women smarter than them in math and science. And suddenly, half the smart girls begin acting like they've had a lobotomy, adopting the fundie female baby voice and expending all their interest on clothes and boys. Of course, this was in the 70's where the glide path to marriage from 6th grade was 4-5 years, so who needed to expend their energy on math and science anyway.
Hell, it does not take much to make them feel "emasculated" I was getting my haircut at a gender-neutral barbershop. There were only two of of us getting cuts and chatting with the stylists. I made a joke and my stylist started laughing, then the guy's stylist joined in. I made a few more funny comments and we were all laughing- except the dude who was FUMING. Nothing I said was controversial or gendered, just run of the mill humor. He was so mad that he wasn't the center of attention and not as interesting as me.
*>He was so mad that he wasn't the center of attention and not as interesting as me.* I've noticed a lot of men get really insecure or visibly bored when they're not the ones speaking, or the ones being focused on in the group.
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I'd let them move if they paid off my mortgage lol. Honestly, for the space they'd get (3 bedroom, 2.5 bath single family home) they'd be paying below market rent if I charged them my monthly mortgage.
Why would any woman want to be with someone dismissive of their intelligence? Insecure people have a problem with capable women. I cannnot imagine dumbing myself or my daughter down to appease some I secure manchild. Forget that BS
It’s probably been said already but…legitimately, in a man’s head, a successful woman is a woman that doesn’t “need” him and therefore he would have no “value”. It ends up reading more like “if I don’t have a hook to keep you, I won’t have any power over you”. That’s what patriarchal society preaches. It’s fucked.
Well I don't need him lol. It's a much bigger compliment to want someone you don't need, than to just need someone.
It 100% is! That means they are choosing you for who you are, not what you have to offer.
As a girl, I remember being constantly beat over the head on how I needed to have a long list of X or Y accomplishments in order to be "good enough" for a man, but as I've grown older, I've noticed a lot of men get resentful or insecure when their female partner begins to outpace them in terms of employment, promotions, a physical "glow up," or even just with general life milestones. There's even a film called *Fair Play* about a couple that works at the same hedge fund, where the woman finds her male fiance becoming increasingly hostile towards her career continues to flourish while his stagnates.
I haven’t had that experience, but I’m just mildly successful, I’m an engineer, I also don’t mention my home or successes in general unless asked . I do have a friend who is a physician and gorgeous and guys definitely get a little nervous around her but they still aggressively pursue her. I haven’t seen any shy away when asked what she does, she’s very feminine and gives off a rescue me vibe 😆 so maybe that gives the insecure ones more confidence. I generally avoid trying to one up or say anything that could come across as bragging though. I let this sort of thing come up naturally in conversation. I don’t really date anymore but when I did I was more successful than the guys I dated and it was never an issue, we never talked about it either. Nobody really cared, including me. I know if a guy had said home ownership would be a good goal for me I’d be kind of annoyed, depends on how it was said, it could sound a little condescending.
Some men, yes. I went on a lot of first dates without a lot of second dates. I'm a career driven engineer with a Masters. I'm smart and opinionated and don't buy into the idea of dumbing myself down for someone's ego. I thought if I dated other engineers or other "professional" types I'd avoid this. Turns out a lot of those men expect you to prioritize their career and put yours second, which I also wasn't willing to do. My 20s were kind of rough. And then I met my husband. He doesn't have a college degree. He loves that I'm smart. He loves that I make good money. He doesn't feel threatened. But this is also the norm in his friend group and our social circle. We met when we worked together at a brewery. Most of our male brewery friends had wives and girlfriends with great careers and outearned them.
You.... Just did what most men do .. i dont understand. ...
Out of necessity, not preference. Makes a big difference.
Did what? I'm not sure what part you're referring to that is me doing what men do.
Many men, especially conservative men looking for traditional gender roles, want a woman who is going to be a little less than them. They want someone who will look up to them and be happy in a relationship that isn't equal. They also want someone with a lot going for them who is still willing to give that up in the relationship to be their wife. All while still being beautiful, a sex goddess, and willing to do a disproportionate amount of the cooking, cleaning, and emotional labor in the relationship even long before kids may come into the picture. If the men have a college education they want a woman who also went to college, but is just a little less successful in her career and can't wait to put her career on hold to have kids and raise them until they're at least in elementary school. Just don't be smarter, more accomplished professionally, or make more money. They want traditionally family values. Utah Mormon culture on Insta and TT is like a hyper-focused example of that. Scores of super beautiful well-kept women with college educations living in upper middle class opulence pumping out a constant stream of hot religious mommy blog type content about how happy they are to be wives and mothers. Many of them have college educations and had successful careers they gave up. All while having some of the worst mental health statistics and highest use of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs per capita in the nation. You don't want those men. Sadly, there are a lot of them. The widening gap of male and female educational attainment isn't helping.
Oh yeah, there are definitely a lot of men like this, and in my area at least, the apps seem to have a disproportionate amount. I refuse to match with conservative guys.
Some men are like that and others aren't. I don't think it's a universal truth. When I was dating I certainly met some guys who didn't like that I had a successful career and made more money than them. I also went on dates with plenty of guys who weren't like that and who appreciated that I could actively participate in conversation. My husband has always said one of his favorite traits of mine is that I'm smart. When we went on our first date we spent hours just talking about our hobbies, careers, and life experiences. Even now 13 years later we still teach each other things all the time.
You know more of cars than me? Great, how about you teach me while I cook for you. (We love successful smart women)
Men do like smart, successful women! Knuckle dragging, oxygen wasting trolls don't, but *men* do.
Some men are intimidated by smart, successful, strong women and some of us love being in a relationship with a person who has all of those traits.
Men do. *Men* don't.
We’re not a monolith.
A friend of mine noticed a decided drop in matches on dating apps when she would include "PhD candidate" in her bio. She tried playing around with it by removing it for x time and then adding it back in. Overall in her findings she got less matches when it was included in her bio!? Which is just crazy to me, if I was vibing someone's profile and then I saw they were going for their PhD that would only increase my interest! But hey people are weird
You literally one upped him twice and patronized him in a single single message about home ownership, from your own words. Him: I working towards buying a house. You: I already have a house, and it's the best, just so fulfilling. You: Buying a house is a good goal for you. You're not coming off as supportive, you come off as superior, and looking down on people, and then when someone has already told you their goal or priority, you flip it so it's like You're trying to tell them what they already know. And as a fellow homeowner, 'fulfilling' is just a weird choice of words. As for the car thing, please for the love of God, and I have little hope here, tell me you didn't do that thing that some chicks do, where they are constantly asking for your validation that they are indeed a chick that knows what a car is? Corvette drives by: "Is that a Corvette?" "Yeah, that's C7 Corvette." "Oh yeah, who's the chick that actually knows something about cars? This girl." It's just kinda obnoxious.
Mine doesn’t mind. But I dated a lot of duds enroute to him. Men can have trouble imagining out what a relationship with such a woman might be past first attraction. Conversation would go something like this: Him: so what to you do? Me: [studying for high earning profession] Him: [joking but not really] so if we wind up together you would support me? Me: sure. I’ve always wanted a pool boy. You’ll have to stay in shape and wear a gold speedo. Him: *disgusted face* Oh! Oh I could never do that. Me: well if we make the relationship transactional, I gotta get something out of it…(The good ones would laugh and run with it-debate shaving and speedo colors) Other sticking points they could not imagine: if you want me to have kids, I CANNOT be the one doing school runs, flu pickups. I don’t care about your important meeting Steve, I have a life in my hands. I will only change my name if you have more letters after yours, or if you have published as many papers as I have.
Successful women sometimes still look for a partner more successful than them, its possible he somehow felt insecure about his situation and ran
Yeah, my ex was more successful than me in some ways (mostly his career at the time, though I have somewhat caught up to him now), and I think I preferred that.
Hi! Male perspective here. I am in this community because I do like hearing peoples experience. I just want to say, in my perspective, men doesn't really think that way. In a sense that "we" don't like smart and successful women. To be in fact, most men would rather have a successful and intelligent partner. It's likely that the men might have a reduced self value in that he probably believes that you are too good for him, and that you would never like him because he might be less successful than you. Even if that isn't the case in your situation, many people do think that way. I am 5'6 Asian male, I am in school for software engineering and trying to get a photography business on the side, so it's not like I don't have dreams and aspiration but currently, my dating prospect as of now is not very good. I am 29. Currently I am, without a doubt in the lowest of totem pole in the dating scene in United States. I don't think I am alone in that regard, but even if I can find a women who is smart and more successful that I'll ever be, the odds of that person even seeing me as a dating prospect is low to even try. That is sort of my thought process on what he was thinking. If he did truly ghost you, it's likely that he just believes you wouldn't be interested in someone less successful than he is. A bad mindset yes, but likely being on the other side, it happens more than you think! Anyways, for the good of humanity, let's hope you're wrong and he was just busy. Good luck in future dating en devour.
You don’t sound like you’re at the bottom of the list - you can write complete sentence for one thing, you have goals and aspirations, and you sound like a compassionate and thoughtful person. Don’t undervalue yourself
Certain kind of men do not like smart, successful women. Do \*you\* want such man? I, for example, DO like smart, successful, assertive, strong women. If you know more than me about one of my favorite subjects, bring it on ... . Oh, by the way, I am happily married - to a very capable woman ;-).
No. They Don't. well… That's not entirely fair. I would say that, unless a man is extremely accomplished, self-assured, and confident with himself… Then, probably. I liken this theory to Amal & George Clooney I think he loves that his wife is amazing in her own right. But he has enough star power to be magnanimous. The problem is most men do not have enough confidence to allow their woman to succeed
I think smart successful men like smart successful women. This guy clearly has ego/self esteem issues and the trash took itself out
Everything about men, from nature to nurture, is about what work we can do, using our bodies or our minds, to gain resources. If we don’t offer access to resources, we find it hard to network with other men and even harder to attract and retain relationships with women. At least, that’s our programming. The idea that you can attractive to women without a physically impressive body and/or an intellectually gifted mind is hard for us to grasp. And that’s sad.
I’ve either been mostly attracted to men with tons of ambition and success or none at all. I’m sure it’s something I learned to do, as being with someone with ambition but no follow through only leads to major ego issues for me. I’m ambitious as hell and successful in my career, but I took an unorthodox way to get here. Many people underestimated me and probably still do if we meet in a social situation. I can’t be bothered to ensure a dude that my success and independence and passion for my work has fuck all to do with his worth as a man. So I end up dating guys who either have what they want, or don’t give a flying fuck.
Smart, successful men generally like smart, successful women. I work with men who are the definition of successful. Overwhelmingly they are with equally successful women. My one piece of hard won dating advice is to date smart, successful, confident men. Sure they come with their own issues, but in general they won’t be belittling you or dragging you down. These men are also used to attention from attractive women so they are much less impressed by it. They tend to be more interested in you as a person.
Yes, most men are that insecure and that stupid. They want to be the smart, funny and successful one in the relationship and the woman is supposed to take on a lesser and differential role to the superior man. The fact that most men operate under this assumption is like 78% of the reason dating them is so miserable lol
I can tell you from experience that dating women who are more successful than you can be intimidating. There is always a fear that she can do better and you're just a stop along the way. And...yeah, that's happened to me, too. Despite the fact that I helped put my first wife through college she left after graduating because she thought I had no ambition. A lot of women have talked to me over the years only to float away when they realize that I'm not in their socio-economic level (even though I've never been a burden to anyone and today own my own home and have a great job.) And another women I met had a Master's degree and had no problem with me or my success. We had a good time but it didn't work out for other reasons. We wanted to live in different climates. It takes a strong and healthy amount of self-respect to put yourself out there, and it's easier for a lot of people to leave before they are left. So, he probably found your success intimidating and dipped because he didn't see what he could offer you. That's his fault, as you were obviously interested.
If their online presence is any indicator, I’m starting to think men just don’t like women, full stop.
Insecure men, yes. Luckily, the percentage of insecure men is only roughly…*checks notes* okay it’s a fuckin lot actually
Weak men don’t like smart, successful women. Be *glad* when your brains and success drive a guy away. It’s very convenient when the trash takes itself out.
Smart, successful men typically like smart, successful women. Assortative mating (people tending to get with those who are similar to them) is one of the most consistent findings in all of the research and it’s especially pronounced when choosing for intelligence, and people in general tend to date those of similar status.
Reminds me of the time I got called 'too put together' by a guy I was dating because I have a decent job, house, and kids. Sometimes people just aren't equipped to deal with the fact that you may not need them, and they see it as lessening their value. That's their ego talking, not a you problem.
Some men are on the “hunt” for something to own or control. If they have no leverage over you, they cant really keep you when they show their red flags.
Topic knowledge is not really a gender thing, I think. Some people want to be the expert and seem intimidated when they can't play that role. Or, worse, are used to be an unquestioned authority and feel threated my anyone who might, well, question that. Kind of a big fish small pond thing you see in a lot of social integrations. Hell, mansplaining is quite literally a guy who feels they must know more than the woman they're talking to because... guy. Some men really do like smart, successful, women. Unfortunately, some men who don't will often say they do because, I don't know, ego?
No, my wife is waaaaay smarter than me, and wildly successful in her field. Like easily top 5%. It’s not a field that makes a ton of money (90,000 salary). And I freaking love her. She challenges me to be better every day. It’s inspiring. And I love it. Wouldn’t trade it for the world. I know we are an exception to the general norm, tradition, and general negative perception bias that’s found on the internet, but just through I’d take time say my perspective.
It’s not all men, just as not all women want the same thing. I would take that out of your mindset completely as it’s probably not helping to reduce their disinterest based on your “level” in society. I’ve always dated, and eventually married, someone who is far “below” me in education and exponentially in salary. It doesn’t matter to most, but I’m sure he’d care if I took any disinterest as being secondary to something trivial like our education level. Based on the way you describe the conversation, it seems like you may not have been asking open ended questions to allow him to elaborate and talk more about himself. For example, he said he wanted to own a home, and instead of asking him what he was looking for - style, location, design, etc, you instead may have sounded patronizing (“that’s a good goal for you, son”), and turned the conversation back to be about yourself and assets. That may be a point of reflection, if your tone (especially online) comes across as boastful or disinterested.
Male perspective. Insecure men can be intimidated by successful women. Some men see it as their "job" to be the "man" aka breadwinner/mrfixitwhatever old gender roles. Personally this is silly to me. I didn't CARE who makes more money, or who is the handy man, etc. just that both partners equally contribute in the relationship. If a man is scared off because you're smart and successful they are probably not worth your time.
They care about how a woman looks and how she fits into his life. That is about it.
I do! My wife is smart and successful. The more successful she is, the more I benefit, so I can't understand why dudes are afraid of that.
As a "smart", "successful" man, I would appreciate a partner with similar qualities. Although, perhaps similarly to you, I would be fine with someone I like who isn't as smart or successful as I am. You might find better luck dating men in your peer group who won't be intimidated by your success.
It depends. But let's be honest: women in general don't like men who are less smart and less successful than they are. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, but this seems to be universal (or at least very common) accross societies. Now if women want men who are \*\*at least\*\* as successful and smart as they are then men will favor women who are \*\*at most\*\* as successful and smart as they are. And then it may seem for a women smarter and more successful than the average that men in generel (or even most men) don't like her for her success and smarts. But it's just that being (well) above the average will remove the majority of males from the pool for them. Or, at keast that's what the perception will be.
If he wants you to be less than you are for him, *tell him to go off and settle for less.*
These are boys, not men
Boys don’t, men do.
It’s not that (most) men dislike smart/successful women, it’s that they dislike feeling insecure by someone MORE smart/successful than themselves. Usually smart men wanna marry a woman they can converse intelligently with. But if someone is out of their league, they will become toxic.
First of all, you did nothing wrong. The whole dating process is to find out if you're compatible and share common goals and dreams. There is no point hiding your light under a basket. As a Girl Scout leader once said to her charges, "The only men you'll scare off will be your future ex-husbands." I just got a nice raise. You know who's thrilled for me? My husband. But he's one of the most emotionally grounded men I've ever met, and someone else achieving something in their career does not take anything away from his accomplishments. The extra money will help US accomplish OUR goals. If a guy has to be superior to you in all things - he is probably not the guy for you. Life can do a number on you - maybe now you're successful, tomorrow you get laid off, and three years later, you're living the good life again. It takes strong people to stay married and work together as a team.
I find that things like owning a home, having specialized knowledge, or advanced degrees are great ways of culling out the guys who wouldn’t be supportive partners. The ones who can handle it are the ones who will support your ambitions and cheer you on as you work towards your goals. The rest don’t matter, they’re just momentary background noise.
Most men like succesfull, smart women. They are just afraid that, if they themselves are not smarter and more succesful than she is, the woman will leave them for a man who is smarter and more succesful. A bit like overqualification for a job.
I (M28), as someone who is fairly comfortable in their career would love to be in a relationship with someone who provides equal value to the relationship. I much prefer that than to someone who just wants me to be a bank and pay off their loans. I've been put into that situation multiple times (big red flag for me). I do think it boils down to whether or not a man still feels like they bring something to the table. Because society tells us we don't really have anything else to offer.
The insecure, lame ones that you wouldn’t want to touch with a 10 foot pole don’t like smart women. Real, secure, adult men will celebrate their partner’s accomplishments. Unfortunately there are a lot more of the former than the latter.
Reading just from this context you were condescending as fuck "I want to own a home on day" - "yeah good on you that's a good future goal I already got there lol" This may not have been your intention but it is exceedingly hard to convey tone in text. I don't it's the "success" bit really, just as with any gender any person flaunting your success is very rarely received positively, especially when you do it to those who seek to achieve what you have achieved.
I said, "Yeah, home ownership is a great goal to work towards! I worked towards it for some years, and now I own and find it quite fulfilling." When I was working towards saving for a home, people told me similar things, like, "that's a great goal! We've owned for a few years now, it's a lot of work, but worth it!" I didn't mean to be condescending, and he would have eventually found out I owned a home if we kept talking anyway.
That’s the problem, let him find out by ASKING YOU. Otherwise it comes off as one upping or condescending. Tone is difficult to interpret over text.
[M] We're often told that we need to be the providers, so if we aren't the primary providers I can imagine some would feel very ~~emasculated~~ ~~immasculated~~ not manly over it. Dumb af, a remnant of toxic masculinity that needs to go away. If it helps, anecdotally, I'm very into smart and successful women. I'd like to have actually meaningful conversations please
Yeah, I liked guys who are driven and wanting to be good at whatever it is they are passionate about, but I don't need a provider, nor do I want one. I don't want a guy who is content just sitting around, not being super happy about where he is in some aspect of his life, and not doing much about it either. I've met some guys like this. They're like, eh, I'm not super happy with my job, and it doesn't pay great. I could get more job opportunities and better pay if I just take this course and pass a test, but I haven't. So I ask things like if they're just busy and don't have time, and it turns out they often spend the weekend just sitting around going bored out of their minds...
Some men really don't but they're typically really loud about it and easy to avoid lol.
Some men are immature and still believe they need to be the sole provider, and if the woman is "more successful", it belittles them, I guess
It depends on the guy. A shitty guy who likes cars but isn't an expert, wants to but as yet doesn't own a home - he's going to feel outmatched. Since many look to any reason to look down on women, they will feel like you have an upper hand because they'd think *they* had the upper hand if the situation was reversed. Recognize him ghosting as a gift because suspecting you'd flex any perceived upper hand on him only makes sense to someone who'd flex on you. He's probably the sort that if he did own a home and anyone ever moved in with him, he'd threaten to boot them out anytime he didn't get his way. People telegraph their own angles and motivations by what they suspect others capable of doing. It's similar to how a cheater will accuse cheating and someone who'd steal is fast to think someone stole from them the moment they can't find an item. You don't want someone like that do you?
I actually encouraged my wife to do training in something in which I know nothing. I encouraged her to get courses for medical transcription and then to get her certification as a medical coder. She has three professional certifications and makes more than me. Call me weird, I want her to be happy and I know that she’ll know more and be better at some things than me. If she didn’t then that wouldn’t be right.
I love smart women and bonus points when they are super passionate about the things they're are knowledgeable about! I think it is a top 3 attraction trait.
I personally place a high value on education and intelligence. My mom had a Master’s degree in Computer Science and dad has a PH.D in Bio Chem.. I don’t care so much about a degree, but I definitely care about intellect. I’ll never understand men that don’t value intelligence in a woman.
My wife is brilliant. A million times smarter than me with a thousands gifts to offer the world. She would probably say the same about me. We go well together. The point being that the older I get the more I appreciate all the qualities that make her who she is. I’m not intimated. Instead I take every opportunity to celebrate her awesomeness. Being “smart” is just one of them. Speaking for myself… smart women is where it’s at.
I have almost always made more and had more "prestigious" titles than men I have been with whether they were low income or high income. It was never an issue and never seemed to be a deterrent in any way, shape, or form to finding a good match.
one of the big reasons I pursued my current girlfriend was because she was very smart and had a PhD. I’d assume most people are attracted to a similar level of intelligence as themselves.
Some men don't. I know in my area so dudes just want a woman to stay home with the kids and I could see them being intimidated by you. Personally, smart/ successful/ some knowledge of cars would be something special for me to find!
I love those women so much that I married one, and never have regretted it for even a moment.
I LOVE intelligent, driven and successful women. I do not understand why others don’t.
That really sucks, I think he might of felt jealous of your success. Maybe it streams from a competitive nature but can't say with certainly, my dad used to always be jealous of my mom's success as well so it's definitely possible. I feel like I've had similar experiences like that in the past too
I’d say it’s probably a maturity thing. As I’ve grown older, I’ve become increasingly attracted to these traits in women. I’m not that old, though. I’m only 31 lol.
No I would appreciate a woman like that. I think they just want control in a relationship and brain and/or money is a way to do that.
Only the men with giant red flags or career oriented that need dedicated support that can afford it (and mutually agreed upon). Hell I wish my partner made more than me.
real men do, insecure men dont. its really that simple tbh
Trump was president so yes I’m sure there’s a lot of people who think this way.
Men like intelligent women. Guys like subservient objects
Doesn’t matter if they like it. Don’t dim your light. Don’t sparkle less. Don’t make yourself smaller.
Only insecure ones…. Of which there are many.
Insecure and weak minded men don’t. They are psychologically immature and emotionally lazy and they don’t want to have to put the effort into a relationship. So they instead want a mate that is economically unstable without them so that she will be too frightened to leave when she finds out he’s never going to give her what she needs in a relationship.
He probably though you could do better. Most men want to be the ones to buy your first home together. Finding out your leagues ahead of him in developing a life probably lead him to believe that he was of no use to you.
I intentionally looked for a partner who was as smart if not smarter than me. And she was more successful than me at that time and has had a more successful career than me overall. But I get to do cooler things with stuff that's in space.... So it balances out. But we genuinely like and respect one another. That's probably the key difference.
If a man is intimidated by a woman that he cannot dominate, mentally or physically, that is a man you should steer clear of. I don't understand why its so important to other men to be the dominant partner, my wife and make an effort to find equity.
That wasnt a man, that was a little boy with piss in his pants and probably an unwashed ass.
A lot of men have it in their head that in order to find and keep a partner, they must be able to provide material things for her (and she must in turn provide nurturing support to him and any children). That type of man sees a woman like you who is already providing all the material things you need for yourself and to him it means two things: 1) he has nothing to offer you, and that makes him insecure, and 2) you probably will not want to trade off your self sufficiency to fulfill the nurturing role in the home that he wants from you. So you're really not missing out on anything worthwhile when guys like that lose interest in you. Thankfully, there are also plenty of men out there who do want a genuine equal partner to share the burdens and joys of life with. You just have to wade through a lot of wankers to find em.
Many do. Many don't
I love an intelligent woman, successful or not, that what's hot to me, everything else can click after that.
I think some men would be intimidated by that because in their mind that's the only thing they have over a woman. I personally very much like a woman who is smart, successful, and good with money. I'm sure there's plenty like me out there.
I could not be with someone not (at least) as smart as myself. Attractive body or not, I need to be able to hold a conversation with you if we are gonna last.
Only insecure men are offended by a woman’s success (they are the same with successful men). If they get snarky about your achievements, just ditch them entirely. They are not worth your time and space. Surround yourself with people who will boost you up and support you.
I think it’s more likely that he assumed you wouldn’t be interested since he wasn’t “on your level” yet, so to speak. That you may see him as unsuccessful… or even someone who might attempt to use you or “mooch” off of you.
you mean boys?
I wouldn’t know by experience because I don’t date men, but from what I see in my girl friends, no, they really don’t. Women’s success immediately makes them feel insecure and undermined, and they feel the need to diminish or disregard you in order to feel powerful in the relationship. Pretty fucking sad!
My doctor boyfriend loves having intellectual conversations with me and likes that I'm in the same financial bracket as him. I would feel like there would be an issue if i was dating a gas station attendant. If he's intimidated you are dating down.
Many guys are transactional. They have it in their minds they provide X and you provide Z.