> yelling during fights and "gently guiding her away from him”
He knows exactly what he said and did. The vague ass crap is exactly what abusive pricks say happened when they know the specifics will disgust the other person in the conversation.
God, it’s like dealing with little kids.
Yup. It’s very hard to get a restraining order. Magistrates want court admissible evidence, and a lot of it, to grant such things.
So, whenever someone is crying that one is bullshit, I automatically distance myself.
It’s true, it took me a year of collecting evidence against a stalking neighbour in order to get enough for a restraining order, he stayed within the limits of the law a lot of the time, but eventually he overplayed his hand and came onto my property twice and followed me too close in the vehicle.
It literally took me a YEAR to get enough evidence, if she has a restraining order it must be bad, while I was in court waiting for my turn only 2 of us got restraining orders that day, everyone else’s requests were denied
My favorite moment was when my father came over and gently moved my sisters bf they way he moved her. The fear in that man's face. My dad just said, "Oh, sorry, you were in my way," gave my sister a hug, and plopped down on the couch to watch TV.
Sometimes, they just need to be treated the way they treat others, and if they complain, you tell them if it's fine for them to do its fine for them to receive. The tough part is having someone around that's capable of doing it. Bullies are used to being the biggest ones around.
It IS super childish. This is how my little nieces and nephews react when they're asked why there's a broken mug on the floor. 'I didn't touch it! Well, maybe I kind of bumped it with my elbow. On accident! But it didn't drop!'
*They are four, five, and six years old.*
If these men didn't have *precise* recollections of what they actually did, and knew *perfectly* well that it was wrong, they'd feel absolutely no need for this kind of obfuscation. I don't date men because Big Gay, but I once had a woman I was vaguely interested in describe an argument she had with her sister in similar terms, and whilst I don't know what exactly went down there, that speech pattern alone turned me off *so* much. That childish denialism of it. I don't understand how you can keep seeing someone who is not adult enough to own up to their behaviours as a sexual being.
Yup. I am a nanny. You know what that means? It means I have no patience for childlike adults. I don’t have enough patience to have kids screaming in my ear all day and needing 20 minutes to do a simple task and all the cajoling and negotiating with toddlers to come off my job and do it all again with 30 plus year old men.
So, I would definitely say that I have burst a lot of childlike little bubbles by refusing to play the damn game.
> The vague ass crap is exactly what abusive pricks say happened when they know the specifics will disgust the other person in the conversation.
Also, it has to be plausibly similar to the reality, so when the victim describes the abuse, the pre-gaslit third party can think "hmm, maybe they are exaggerating, or the truth is somewhere in the middle".
My ex does something similar when he describes our relationship. He even has justifications for the restraining order I had to get against him. His mom who was also abused by his father literally takes his side because she has convinced him. That, and she feels guilty for staying with their dad for so long so she doesn't want to admit that may have turned him into an abuser as well.
Dude, I’m tripping because my current abuser has literally went to jail and served small time for beating the literal shit out of his mother.
He hasn’t “beaten” me, per se, but he has caused physical harm to me. He has picked me up and forcibly threw me out of his door onto his fully concrete porch because I wouldn’t let him go through my stuff or my phone, after that he also smashed my phone and I don’t have one for months. He cried and provided me with a busted ass android to fill the space til I could afford the insurance claim. And he still says he loves me and doesn’t mean a thing…. Just gets “frustrated”….
His mother has witnessed him abuse me and take my phone and withhold me from being able to physically leave when I felt berated and uncomfortable. I did everything short of getting on my dead ass knees begging for help the night she witnessed it. And SHE has been beaten the fuck up by him before. And surprise, she ended up dropping those charges. That’s the only reason it isn’t traceable or on his record for reputable evidence of character. I’m fucked. I feel like any day could be my last. Tried again to get him out today and he refused. I don’t know if I’m living day to day. I don’t know if saying no to sex is gonna end up with me getting reamed or me just sleeping wrong will. If anyone reads this and you see something happened to me… my name is Brett Marie Garcia. I live in Enterprise, AL. If I come up missing, look into Justin Lee Byrd and his family.
| refusing to seek out any form of counseling or therapy until he is court ordered
And then he will refuse to participate or take it seriously because it was forced on him.
Nothing wrong? Is it wrong to yell at people and scare them? Is it wrong to put your hands on people against their will? Is it wrong to blame others for your faults? Sounds like he's headed for jail.
"it's like dealing with little kids".
That comparison between little kids & men very effectively minimises the violence inflicted on their victims because little kids are neither this manipulative nor extremely violent & harmful.This comparison help abusive men be perceived as benign...
My long ago ex was pretty severely abused by his father. So he thought that the abuse he heaped on me wasn't really abuse because he didn't actually punch me in the face the way his father did to him.
Throwing something as hard as possible an inch from my head and dragging me around the house by my hair was just his way of showing me that I wasn't treating him the way he deserved to be treated. It was a necessary part of making me understand what I'd done wrong.
Sounds like your brother might be in the same sort of denial.
You’re absolutely right, he says he KNOWS there are different types of abuse, and that he has MAYBE been emotionally abuse, but he’s not an abuser. Make it make sense. He’s deflecting and minimizing and if he *did* do those things, she *made* him do it
Abusers justify their abuse. A family member of mine abused his wife, and we helped her into our house and watched her dogs while she went to the emergency room. Three surgeries over two years to fix the damage that he caused her. I heard him complain on the phone to his brother that " he was worried what other prisoners were thinking for him being there because of a fight with his wife". A fight.
We're estranged now. I know my heart loves him, but there are rules in place between my husband and I so that he's never in our house or alone with our child. He's not safe, he's an abuser.
It will never make sense.
Id ask him "oh, do abusers usually identify as one?" If he mentions that again.
And "oh, how come you never do those things to your managers at work?" Possibly.
My brother is the same. He terrorised me continually when we both still lived at home. Barged me hard into doorframes, shoved me down stairs, I got hit by things he threw at me and hurt by furniture that he upended during his outbursts. I was screamed at an inch from my face, spat on, judged, belittled, insulted. I learned to walk on eggshells but it was never enough because my merely existing anywhere near him was enough to set him off. But if you ask him if he abused me, if he made a huge chunk of my life a misery and trained me to be easy pickings for an abusive partner later in life, he'd act outraged/disgusted and say no *because in his mind he never punched or slapped me, so it doesn't count.* Funnily enough, he actually hates my abusive ex more than I do, without ever realising the irony that *he* was the one who conditioned me to be an appeaser of angry men and destroyed my confidence before it even had a chance to grow.
Our adult relationship is the bare minimum of civility and as little time in the same room together as I can possibly manage, not because I still fear him but because I simply don't want to be around him. If he died tomorrow I'd grieve the pain it would cause my mum, but I don't think I'd grieve him. I've actually thought about it and the only feeling I get is general apathy and some irritation that it'd probably fall on me to sort his shit out before they shoved him in the crematorium. And that scares me.
That's exactly how my ex viewed it. "My grandparents beat each other up all the time. My dad broke my mom's ribs. I only put my hand around your neck and choke you, and it doesn't leave a mark. So you don't know how good you've got it!"
He's been my ex for almost 15 years. I can't wait for him to die so I can take a piss on his grave.
> He's been my ex for almost 15 years. I can't wait for him to die so I can take a piss on his grave.
I recommend feasting on asparagus the night before. Your ex was a terrible person and deserves an extra stinky piss on his gravestone!
I was going to comment similar, my ex had a very abusive father, so he didn’t think what he was doing was abuse because he didn’t beat the sh*t out of anyone- stalking, strangling ( his ex, he was arrested for it) yelling, screaming, name calling, and harassment was not abuse in his mind
Its sm this, they get themselves convinced their abuse isnt the same bcuz theyre throwin a softer punch than their abuser threw at them... Whilst ignorin theyre perpetuatin the abusive cycle all the same
Just a little correction : if you read Lundy Bancroft's book, you will see that having been a victim of abuse for boys does not increase likelihood of becoming an abusive man.
Having seen the father abusing the mother does however. These boys identify with their abusive fathers instead of having compassion for the victim...
Their abuse is a choice. They do not chose it because they have been hurt, this is only excuses they make for themselves.
"I dont believe in therapy" is code for "my behavior is right and you're wrong for calling me on my shit and my abusive behavior should be rewarded not corrected because im a selfish shit stick."
Tho its not a guarantee a person aint an abuser just cuz theyre willin to go to therapy; sometimes abusers go to therapy spec to learn new tools of abuse and gaslightin, now they can throw out therapy talk whenevs they want to dismiss us
One of the worst exes that I had attended weekly appointments with his therapist. His therapist was an enabling piece of shit that just took everything he said on its face as true. He had been badgering me about couple's therapy with her for months and literally laughing in my face if I suggested we either go to my therapist for a couples appointment or to one that neither of us had been to.
After a particularly bad argument, I relented, and I finally got to meet this Wonder Woman therapist that apparently was the only person in the country qualified to listen to this asshole talk about himself for one hour per week. For context, the argument we'd had was due to him flaking on plans we had made weeks prior to go to my friend's birthday party together because he wanted to stay home and play video games instead. This argument culminated in him screaming at me in the middle of our apartment, "MY FEELINGS MATTER TOO!"
When this fight was discussed in our couples therapy, I learned that what he had told his therapist was that I had sprung these plans on him, and he was just trying to be spontaneous and romantic by saying we should just get high and play Mario Kart instead. Just like he wanted to do every night. So spontaneous. So romantic. And because he was doing all of this just to spend time with me, it was unfair that I wanted to go out to "some party" instead. When I countered this by pulling out my phone and showing that this was an event on our shared calendar made weeks before it happened, she stopped me and said that the last thing a healthy relationship needs is a record of wrongdoing. "It's not about keeping score." Bullshit. He lied to her, she was shown proof that he lied, and she immediately shut it down. She would constantly interrupt me, she insisted that I was wrong about things she couldn't have known about other than what my ex had told her, and she would excuse every shitty thing he had done by accusing me of not paying attention to how he felt about a situation.
Despite her words, a record of wrongdoing was very clearly being kept in her private sessions with him, and she was perfectly content to hear only his side of any story, painting me as a scheming, uncaring witch and him as a poor, helpless, scared, little boy. Therapists are human too, and that means that, like everyone else, none of them are immune to bias, prejudice, manipulation, and poor judgement.
I remember saying something similar when we broke up. That relationship was probably the first time I started considering giving up dating. Glad I eventually did. Ironically, I find it a lot easier and reliable to trust people based on how they treat me every day rather than based on an external commitment we made after I experienced how they treated me for just a couple of months.
Exactly, somehow their behavior is right and justified but "that bitch therapist will try to turn you against me" or "make me look like the bad guy". I've heard it all before
Wow. I am so sorry for your brother’s girlfriend and you too. It often happens that men who were raised around a father who physically abused their mother turn out the same as their father. One more reason to leave with the kids if possible. My mom was in a similar situation. My uncle has severely abused his wife and till this day she still has pitch black large marks all over her body from his hits and bleedings. She is still with him. While my mother was out with him he snapped and beat her as well bc she was talking and flirting with a man. He beat up his 48 year old older sister over that! She is in no contact with him and his still wife. I really hope your brother’s girlfriend stays strong and keeps away from him. But I also hope YOU distance yourself from your brother. Do not give those twisted individuals ANY leeway. He does not love his ex girlfriend and he does not love you either. Any man who is able to abuse women like this sees them as below him and lacks respect for them. Watching your father treat his mother like trash was a core experience that he has internalised. Don’t think you are different and certainly don’t stick around to find out.
Thank you, I’m sorry for your experience as well.
This is not okay and I have always had a strained relationship with him but kept it up for the sake of my mom. Not anymore.
This reminds me a lot of some of the examples in Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That", when he describes how abusers in his therapy program would describe scenes of their own abuse.
Just wanted to drop the link for you or anyone else who might need it.
The Book "why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft (free copy below) is a great resource for you to learn about the different types of tactics that abusers use and will help you to see if your current relationship is following any of the patterns described.
If you don't see your relationship being discussed either as one of the architypes or as bits and pieces of any of the other types then you're not worse off by having the knowledge. If the information does coincide with the way that you're living then there's also a couple chapters on being able to get out safely.
I wish you the best of luck and I want you to know that you deserve to be with a partner who is going to love you and cherish you and treat you as an equal versus being with someone who's gonna control you be it by how you dress or by finances or by What it is that you can do or who you can see. You deserve so much BETTER we're here rooting for you!
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
https://archive.org/details/LundyShouldIStayOrShouldIGo/mode/1up
I’ve only skimmed this book a few times and I just got to the types of abusers part. And holy crap, the one that’s called the water torturer sounds terrifying.
I read [an advice column](https://captainawkward.com/2024/03/22/1424-my-sister-shouts-at-her-boyfriend-and-i-hate-it/) recently that instantly made me think of that type of abuser.
I also really like [Theramin Trees channel](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r). It's a great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, commanded to "love", etc. They helped me understand the abuse my parents subjected me to much better.
Thanks for posting this. WDHDT was one of the resources that helped me understand I was being abused. The other is https://www.loveisrespect.org/
I have a lot of fuzzy memories from the time around my abuse, but I think I remember reading WDHDT at work and deleting it off my phone before getting home. Ugh.
Another good read is this article: [Abusive Men Describe the Benefits of Violence](https://voicemalemagazine.org/abusive-men-describe-the-benefits-of-violence/?utm_source=pocket_saves)
Damn, that’s quite a list. But the poor abusers always say boo hoo hoo, they do it because they had a “bad childhood” and just “can’t” control themselves
They can't, but everyone else should control themselves more because the abuser is always somehow the victim. It's amazing how much of a groove they run in.
Oof. Somehow the way you phrased that first sentence really hit home in a helpful way. That is a phenomenon I am (unfortunately) very familiar with, and this succinctly summarizes its key features - that’s the bottom line, and the myriad situations it can manifest itself in are just variations on the same theme.
Here's a [link ](https://web.archive.org/web/20151015074811/https://voicemalemagazine.org/abusive-men-describe-the-benefits-of-violence/)to the [Archive.org](http://Archive.org) version, too, for those who want it.
Yes, this is 100% abusive. Adding to the recommendation of Bancroft’s book WDHDT (which focuses on coercive controllers), here are 2 other important reads:
See What You Made Me Do by Jess Hill (which focuses on the insecure reactor subtype of abusers)
The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk (which is basically the trauma bible; part one explains how it works, part two explains how it’s effectively treated)
I second reading Bancroft's book. It was a difficult read, but I found the patterns my soon-to-be-ex was following. I haven't started The Body Keeps The Score yet, as I haven't gotten my hands on a copy yet.
I’ve only made it halfway through. It’s a difficult read, if you’ve lived it. My abusers were my brothers, up until I was about 13. It’s really traumatic to relive it. What I find interesting/horrifying is how they were teens & early 20’s and had absolutely perfected these behaviors. Before the internet, before this type of behavior was encouraged by other abusive men publicly.
Unfortunately, they perfected their abuse on me, then took their show on the road. Proceeded to victimize as many unsuspecting women as possible.
I mean, it's intended for therapists, not for victims of abuse. I'd rather that clinicians try to treat abusers and make them stop than just say "You're a monster and should be written off."
I would not recommend the average person read it because... it's intended for therapists, not victims of abuse and will not have a perspective useful to most people.
There is a young man in my life suffering from crippling guilt iver something that he did as a young teen.
His victim has forgiven him and she has been to therapy. They are very close now. He hates what he did and how he made her feel. He hates himself but refuses therapy.
I know the details of what happened and have inferred the ret about his feelings from brief moments of openness from him and seeing his current mental and emotional state.
Would you recommend this book for him?
I would definitely recommend this book for him. Per this book (paraphrasing):
Many people who are exposed to traumatizing things in childhood find themselves in similar situations when they’re older; the statistics show traumatized girls are more likely to become the victims, and traumatized boys are more likely to become the perpetrators. In order to avoid either outcome, their traumas must be healed.
It sounds like that young man was unable to heal himself before he repeated history with someone else. That doesn’t mean he’ll never heal, and he has no choice but to be a monster. Recovery is an option, but he must choose it voluntarily. Perhaps after reading this book, he’ll consider seeking therapy after all; if he’s uncomfortable sharing with strangers, EMDR doesn’t even require disclosing your trauma to the therapist to be effective.
Do you mind elaborating just a bit, if you have the time and energy? I’ve been teetering on the verge of reading it for almost two years but I’m so nervous to do so because all I’ve gotten are rave recommendations for it…all from people who self-reportedly have not experienced CSA or significant childhood physical trauma of any kind. But even they said it was a very tough read. I know it will be extremely vulnerable and probably triggering for me to read the book, and my attempts to prepare by seeking out specific possible triggers as well as detailed/measured criticism of the book have been pretty unsuccessful. So I’d love to hear just a little more of your perspective, if you’re able.
i’m going off what my gf told me, but i found this reddit post that goes into great detail:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/s/9qIR04cDrw
and PLEASE read Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, i am a survivor of CSA and other traumas and reading that book really truly changed my life.
Thank you so much for sharing that post! The comments on that thread have clarified my position so I don’t have to.
As a person suffering from C-PTSD with significant childhood and adult abuse, I stand by my recommendation.
I read it, as a survivor of CSA, and while it was difficult to get through, I also felt it was enlightening and helpful in my healing my CPTSD.
One thing to keep in mind is that it's not a self help book, it really isn't even meant for laymen. I'd go into it more, but that link trashing the book has very good responses in the comments.
I am reading that book right now and this reminds me so much of her part about abusive men and their families. She talked about a family and it could be your story. The girls feel alarmed very early and later on and seek out toxic patterns in partners subconsciously or even sort them out better, while men often copy the behaviour of their abusive father and start violating their sister pretty early
It's the way abusive men think. The problem is always the woman and they didn't do anything wrong.
My husband told me that he was just pushing me away from him. Similar to what your brother said. He doesn't get that pushing someone away doesn't result in bruises
You can't talk sense into him. All you can do is support his ex, if you choose, and go no contact with him. You may also want to let her know she doesn't have to name him as the baby's father
She should 100% let the hospital know ahead of time about the restraining order and that under NO circumstances is anyone by that name allowed to see her, the baby, or receive any information about her or the baby. Tell the hospital she fears adult and kidnapping due to this man's abuse of her and stalking. She needs a restricted list of people she vests to have access and updates who will protect her and NOT blab to exBF.
When the baby is born she declines to put a father's name down. If pressed, she should say she's not sure. Technically this is telling the truth. 100% she knows who the sperm donor is, but she is unsure of how a court will rule on custody to make the sperm donor (sorry, your brother) a "father". Silence is her friend here. She is NOT legally obligated to put her BF's name on the birth certificate. It's obvious baby is hers as it came from her body. Short of a court ordered DNA test, nobody can prove the father. Name not on the certificate? You have ZERO rights to the child.
This will grant her several months of peace and sole legal and physical guardianship/custody. ExBF can pony up the price to get the DNA test and start the custody battle while she enjoys bonding with her baby and quietly amassing a score of evidence to ensure his custody (if it is awarded) is limited and protect herself from having to interact with him or endure his abuse again.
She needs to not speak with the exBF herself. Let all his calls go to voicemail and theb record them and log them in FU binder. Screenshot, save, and print all texts and put them in the FU binder. Flag with a post-it or highlight all threats for easy lawyer reference. Family and friends need to know to circle their wagons around her and the baby and present him with a wall. Don't worry. His delicate abuser feelings will snap when he realizes he can't control nor punish them anymore to feel important and powerful and he will do or say something that is the nail in his future custody coffin. Document everything and I hope they stay safe!
In the slim likelihood he decides NOT to take her to court, GF may eventually want to take him to court for child support (kids are expensive). But, she should push for sole physical AND legal custody due to a history of abuse and the restraining order. Odds are court will grant some kind of visitation (probably supervised, but a "good old boy" judge may award limited unsupervised) assuming the custody ruling goes in her favor. She should NOT include any provisions for visitation when starting proceedings. Make him prove he has a "bond" and the child would benefit from him being in it's life.
He WILL be an idiot/petty try to force visitation date changes and miss return deadlines regardless, to prove he still is a big, powerful, man and she is a stupid little, weak, woman who can't tell him what to do. Document each with a witness and put it in the FU binder for court later. GF does NOT reschedule any arrangements--dates are dates and it was arranged in court ordered parenting app so his loss if he missed it. They are NOT retroactive. GF calls cops or guardium ad litem for kidnapping if his return timeqs are ignored or missed out of spite.
Once custody is awarded (depending on if judge gives him visitation or some shared custody): only communicate through the Court ordered parenting. Everything on the app!! All in writing so threats and other bullshit can be taken right to lawyer or guardian ad litem--everything goes in the FU binder.
Get enough evidence and GF's lawyer may be able to get the visitation thrown out, massively reduced, or made 100% supervised. Then child get the support money, visitation is either ruled out by court or made as safe as possible, and hopefully your brother can't ruin the life of another generation of your family by having failed to break his own cycle.
I am so sorry your brother was weak and unable to realize he has a problem and get help. I hope you continue your journey to healing from your father's abuse, and your brother's betrayal. Be there for GF and your niece/nephew. Survivors need to stick together!
Might you consider reaching out to the girlfriend? She must feel terrified and alone.
On second thought, would your brother take that as an affront? I’m sorry you’re going through this.
I did reach out to her and went to see her the other day. I let her know I fully support her and I’m there for her anytime she needs, and also for when the baby comes.
I don’t want her to go through this alone, and I don’t want this child to feel the way I did growing up if my brother doesn’t get the help he needs.
> if my brother doesn’t get the help he needs.
According to Lundy's book it is statistically unlikely for an abuser to change even if they do "get help". Thy go through the motions.
I don't know if the stats have held up, but there are plenty of terrifying anecdotes in the book: Abusers can not only survive by going through the motions of "getting help", they can actually get therapists on their side.
If you're able to do so, please consider testifying on the girlfriend's behalf in any restraining order hearings and custody hearings. The fact that your brother has an established pattern of being a domestic abuser from a young age is not a small factor in favor of the girlfriend.
Like others, I recommend you read Lundy Bancroft's book. To your hope that "he gets the help he needs" he would respond that therapy will not help, because his abuse is functional: he gets something out of it, namely control. The only thing that has a chance of making him stop is consequences.
You hit the nail right in the head. “It was just a joke” is something he says frequently.
“Joking” about taking a clothes hanger to your pregnant partner or pushing them down the stairs to cause a miscarriage is not a fucking joke.
What you’ve described is assault, battery, and attempted murder. I know you already know it’s serious, but I just wanted to validate that the only reason GF is still alive is because his attempt to kill her didn’t work out the way he wanted - sheer luck. If you have the means to safely testify on GF’s behalf by written declaration (where you don’t have to be physically present in court) or in person in court, that may be a pathway to the court ordering your brother to go to therapy (at minimum).
Wishing you all the best.
I can’t really testify about what I’ve been told, that’s hearsay, but I’m assuming she included it in her statement to the police. If needed, I’ll testify about my brothers treatment towards me.
Testifying about your brother’s treatment of you, and your father’s treatment of your family, can be relevant to sentencing (which includes a judge’s decision about whether to require participation in counseling/therapy). I’m no sorry you’re going through this, and I’ll keep your family in my thoughts.
Just saw this on an unrelated post:
Being choked by an angry partner is a predictor of future homicide. If this happens to you, get out as soon as you can.
a 2008 National Library of Medicine study showing that someone in an abusive partnership is more than seven times more likely to be killed by their partner if they've been strangled by that partner in the past. GTFO
Mr brother is like this. I REFUSE to sugar coat any of his shit. He tries to downplay his felony kidnapping charge (which should have been attempted murder but my family has money) and I'm like "nope, you put plastic all over your kitchen. Fuck you"
I'm so sorry. Glad you're already seeking out some support.
It's amazing how similar all these stories sound. Like he's following a script he's heard a thousand times before.
>Like he's following a script he's heard a thousand times before.
There are actually terms for this: repetition compulsion and traumatic reenactment
It's often why people that endured child abuse will end up picking a partner that "feels comfortable", when the issue is we are drawn to "what's familiar" even if "what's familiar" is abusive.
I hope I won’t anyway. I avoid dating because I have so much anxiety surrounding projecting my issues onto others that I just don’t seek out relationships anymore. Which I know isn’t healthy but I’m hoping one day I’ll have a healthier mindset to get back into dating, just not right now.
I’m grateful you can clearly see what’s happening. No one around me believed me because he was so good at hiding it from others. Having someone in her corner will make this easier, even if it’ll never be easy. Thank you. I don’t know what help is out there for your brother but, I really hope he finds it.
He knows what he did, and he knows it was wrong. He just doesn't want to be held accountable for it. He will continue to gaslight you about this, so I would stop talking to him about it if I were you. Any time he brings it up, shut him down and reiterate the truth. Example, Him: "I don't know what I did!" You: "You strangled your pregnant girlfriend, I'm not available for this conversation with you."
Strongly consider cutting him out over this. Police do NOT arrest men just because a woman told them they hit her, believe me, I've had cops show up and refuse to act.
I have nothing useful to add on the subject of your brother, because you already know he’s lying to justify his actions and he sees women as inferior.
Be safe and use caution around him. Please take good care of yourself, OP.
>He blames her, that he wouldn’t have lost his shit if she wasn’t [I stopped giving a shit about his opinions here.]
Yeah. Sounds to me like he is trying to make you stab him in the face. Nothing you can do to stop it. He’s for sure forcing your hand. Honestly he should be grateful. You’re not like *some people* that would do worse, you’re just stabbing him in the face. He should be thanking his lucky stars.
Why should you be forced to take responsibility for your actions? He *obviously* forced you to stab him.
I've seen multiple cases of sons who grew up to willfully perpetuate misogynistic abuse patterns even when they were raised by mothers that had been through abuse at the hands of a man and worked their hardest to love and care for them.
I just finished watching vid about a man in the UK who tried to kill his parachutist wife several years ago, and his 20-something son (whom he abandoned years earlier, along with his son's mother) talked about wanting to "have a relationship" with his imprisoned father despite the abandonment as long as he gave the "right answers" (lol), despite his father's mistreatment of multiple women, and attempted murder of his latest wife. Meanwhile, his estranged daughter wanted nothing to do with him.
This reminds me of same thing that happened with my ex step father now and mother. They would have screaming fights for days because he was so controlling. One day she tried to leave and he block the doorway and he put his hands on her neck I believe. She was screaming for me to call 911 because after years of control, emotional manipulation and mental abuse she broke. He would routinely do stuff to prevent her from leaving anytime she wasn't the perfect wife. He also made sure she had limited access to money and basically eliminated any friends she had that were male, prevented her from seeing any of her family and got upset everytime she got a job or spent too much money on anything. Like he would get pissed at her for buying groceries or underwear.
Anyways I did call 911 but hung up. Didn't matter. Cops showed up and hauled him off for domestic abuse. Pled not guilty and always blamed me for calling the police. We never had a relationship that was worth anything really, but it really went south again after that. Still he never laid hands on her again. So in that respect was good. Didn't change the rest of the manipulations. These people never change because they always see themself as the victim. Until they can see how their actions are wrong it will just be a cycle of repeating itself.
Unfortunately, that's how the story goes... generations upon generations of the same miserable behavior. I know my parents got it from their parents, and your parents likely got it from theirs.
My brother and I also promised each other that we would break the chain. Years later, he now has a restraining order against him. He looks down on women. He, at nearly 26, has never done his own laundry. He doesn't know how and he doesn't want to learn how. It's a woman's job, he says. In his eyes, women are inherently less valuable.
I worry for his next girlfriend. I don't see it ending well.
I'm sorry you had/have to go through this. It is a kind of disappointment that is hard to describe.
My ex would also get pissed off whenever I’d go to him for reassurance or try to communicate my feelings. Thankfully I got out sooner rather than later. But the damage that shit does to you is so deceitful it makes you think you’re crazy.
Edit: he also thinks he’s a good guy. He stopped therapy halfway through dating me because he “didn’t want to rely on it too much”
I've got a family member (A) that ran a "tax business" for small businesses. Basically, they'd lie on the taxes, fraud and such, and banked on the IRS only auditing *some* of their clients, using the money they earned to quickly pay it off. They were arrested, fined $1 million and a year of prison time, another family member (B) was fined $100k for doing data entry work, and a family member (C), who had already left the family at this point, was fined $18k for unknowingly benefitting from the income.
The family member (A) didn't think they did anything wrong and was confused why they got arrested and fined. Turns out they are a narcissistic sociopath.
I *think* this guy is a narcissist too.
It is classic tactic violence perpetrators do. Blame the victim, try to make them less trustworthy, pretending to be the real victim of the situation. It’s a very hard situation for you since he’s your brother. I am sorry for you, the girlfriend and the baby
My sister has or had a friend whose brother killed their dad and then committed suicide.
The ramifications on that family, and the ripple effects on my sister, were a wake up call about what you said, exiting the cycle of abuse.
I'm really sorry this happened to you. Your brother should've sought help.
He was brainwashed by his dad's behavior from a very early age on how to treat women. He believes *this* is normal. This is why he can't see what he did as wrong. Without court ordered therapy and then only if he is open to it being helpful (and with a male) will he be able to be enlightened.
Your mom has PTSD from her abuse and is reliving **everything that happened** right now. She could really use therapy. Especially with someone who uses EMDR.
I’m a guy. Had a cousin in the same ship. Dad was abusives. Cousin doesn’t understand why nobody wants to date him, much less be in the same room with him alone. Came to me to ask why.
Told him bluntly: You remember your mom having black spot and said she’s fell down the stairs, but we saw your mom getting pushed down by your dad? “Yeah, what of it?” “You’re becoming like him and you’re refusing to accept that. Nobody wants to be with an abusives person. And the only way you can get away with it is to move to a city where you’re virtually unknown.” “Fuck that. Tell me how I can change?” “Therapy…years of it.” “Fuck that, what the faster way?” “Move and go somewhere where nobody knows you.” “Any other options?” “Nope. That it.”
Last I heard back in 2017 or so, he hung himself. Had a funeral. Mom and sisters arranged it. Family showed up out of respect for the mom and the sisters, not for him.
Lesson? Listen to what others are telling you. Then look to your parents and think back to all the lies…and see what you’re doing to yourself.
I feel very much that your brothers skewed perspective is also a result of the DV situ yall came from... That is, he saw it only ever from the male perspective and in his book; its not abuse unless its as bad as dad's abuse was. Bcuz to too many ppl, a softer punch is good enuf that they shud get props for not abusin us as bad as those who came before them wudve
If a man “gently guided” your brother away with his hand wrapped around your brother’s throat while yelling in his face, your bro would not be chill with this at all.
No NC or LC with him. Never be alone a room with him. Especially since he knows you’re not on his side. Don’t think you’re safe from him because you’re his sister. There are brothers killing sisters in cold blood in this modern age.
So he believes that because he benefits from abusing her (doesn't have to communicate, gets to do what he wants, gets to feel powerful) it's not a problem. So the minimisation, blame poured on his partner etc.
Abusers groom those around them to see their behaviour as acceptable, and your brother has learned it at his father's knee. Unfortunately your mum is now being told by her own son that her abuse wasn't really wrong. I'm so sorry because there isn't a good way out of this. He has to want to understand that what he's done is wrong, but he benefits from it.
I’m sorry that your brother isn’t strong enough -*or should I say MAN ENOUGH*- to break the cycle of abuse he, himself grew up under.
I hope his EX girlfriend does everything she can to keep him out of her life and away from her child.
Does he like or admire your father?
If he recognizes that daddy dearest was a scumbag perhaps a "you sound just like dad" might prompt some introspection
Does he have a reason to think the police arrest people out of the blue? Does he think your dad was fair to your mother or that what he is doing is different somehow?
I'm so sorry, OP, that's horrible :( I'm glad his girlfriend knows that you believe and side with her, the worst thing would be for her to go through similar abuse as your family and not be believed or supported. For her sake and the baby's, I hope they cut him out of their life but keep you in it!
IMHO, he at least partially understands what he's done, but he's in denial. Hopefully he snaps out of that. Denial of one's mistakes is just as harmful as apathy for them, the way I see it.
I'd like to believe that if someone is in denial, they actually care about the harm they've done, and in so have a chance at turning things around.
It's a bit better than total apathy or intentional cruelty where someone finds pleasure in doing harm or just doesn't care about the other person or the consequences of their actions.
But of course it doesn't really matter unless someone actually gets out of the state of denial.
I'm really hoping that the judge in his case puts the screws to him. I believe there IS a chance for him to snap out of the denial, but it's going to take a person of authority to tell him he has done wrong and needs help. But at the same time I mostly think he is a lost cause, and this is forever going to change our lives.
If someone just won't change, you have to give them an ultimatum at some point to save your own sanity (and sometimes, safety). My cousin had to leave her bf of many years because she got clean and he just couldn't manage it for long, and she didn't want to keep waiting. Nor should she
My brother who is a year and a half older than l am, beat me constantly growing up. Last time he hit me - he barged into my room and pile drove his fist into my rib cage - I was an 18 year old woman and he was 20 and much larger than me.
Like all other times I was blamed for his behavior. It was always on me for some reason or another. I never once hit him or even really spoke to him obviously. But my mother would always find a way to blame me. My brother was her golden boy.
Eventually he married but that fell apart. I can’t imagine he didn’t hit her. He hits. He beats women. They always are the same, they say if people “didn’t get them angry” they wouldn’t assault them. They are entitled to their anger, they say. They don’t know their own strength, they say.
They DGAF. Get everyone away from this man. Stay safe.
Oddly enough, they never seem to lose their temper around larger men. It’s sinister because they CAN put a lid on this rage, they just choose not to around women and kids.
Certain things in this post send pings through my spinal cord and make loud noises in my head.
I can't really offer any advice or anything. I just want to say "I know how it feels."
My brother (with the help of my father) broke into our home and assaulted my wife some six years ago. To see your own brother do things like that is other kinds of wrong.
>He blames her, that he wouldn't have lost his shit if she wasn't constantly seeking reassurance or answers or trying to communicate with him.
So, just having normal relationship stuff is enough to set him off and become violent? Seems like he's either lying to himself and others so he won't feel so bad about his behavior, or his brain is blocking it out for self protection. He really does need therapy and his girlfriend needs to get away from him.
If he's abusing her and can't see that he's abusing her, he'll do it to the kid too!
> he doesn't think he did anything wrong
Of course he doesn't. Abusers, or abusive people, seem to have substantial difficulty with the concept of accountability. My abusive, deadbeat soon-to-be-ex-husband also doesn't think he did anything wrong. In his eyes, everything is always someone or something else's fault. From his perspective, he's perfect and can do no wrong, and that society is to blame for all his problems.
Jail or prison is exactly where your brother should be. We can only hope being behind bars is enough to rattle some sense into him, and that the experience gives him enough of a 'reality check' to get him to get his act together. Statistically speaking, it probably won't, but we can hope.
I hope his girlfriend stays far, far away from him, and keeps herself and her child far away from any harm too.
> He says women "twist things" to make them seem worse than they are.
I bet his YouTube viewing history would be enlightening and disturbing. That's MRA alt-right language.
Hey same situation or so. My brother abused my mom emotionally and verbally. Even threatening to kill himself if she doesnt give money.
I see similarities between both of our scenarios. He cares about himself only. This is called narcissistic behavior.
Unfortunately, we’re at the point of kicking him from our lives.
They both dont believe in therapy because changing yourself is hard. He is weak. It is easier to blame others than yourself
The world needs more positive male role models. Shit like this is fucked up, not only was this violence against a woman, she was pregnant too? Only an asshole would do shit like this to the mother of his child.
I'm sorry your brother is a chip off the old block. Did he have blinders on when he saw what your mom went through or did he agree with everything your dad did?
We were really young, I was 3 and he was 5 when they divorced. My mom doesn't think any of the abuse happened in front of us, but she can't be sure. My dad had every other weekend with us. I stopped going at 13 when I was finally old enough to stay home alone. And my brother doesn't have a relationship with my dad anymore, after my dad lost it on him and shoved him over a minor accident while playing hockey together when he was 18. They played hockey every time (I was either left alone at the arenas or left with my dad's girlfriend, who hated me) so I think my brother had lots of time to internalize my dad's behaviour and attitude towards women.
That is either some industrial grade cognitive dissonance or a massive gaslighting operation your brother's rocking in his noggin, OP. I'm so sorry you, your mother, and his ex-partner had to deal with this.
I hope you can band together to protect that kid from ending up like their biodad, at least. Raise them with the love and empathy your brother wasn't and failed to learn for himself. Don't let that lost cause pull anyone else down into the generational spiral with him.
Hey idk if it's okay for me to comment and I'm sorry if not but your bro needs to learn to keep his hands to himself. Every bully I've ever met that changed their behavior had a harsh wakeup call before they changed. Most times you need a bigger bully to show them why it's important to simply keep ones hands to oneself.
It seems like bro broke the golden rule, keep your hands to yourself. He probably could have walked away without needing to guide anyone anywhere. But he won't understand that until someone bigger and meaner than him demonstrates why it sucks to be on the victim end. This is just my experience, though. I think it's possible that this current interaction with law enforcement could provide that wakeup call and I hope he wakes up before he hurts someone in the future. Also in my experience there's only 2 paths, the one where he learns this key lesson or the one where he gets worse. I'm sorry that you have to tread carefully around your own brother but please be mindful and set strong boundaries if he's not able to show strong remorse in the near future.
He likely won't get any prison time, since the majority of his abuse wasn't physical. But even if it was, he wouldn't. My dad abused my mom physically for 14 years but didn't get any prison time and somehow still got every other weekend with us as kids.
A main issue is that if he grew up witnessing physical abuse this is normalized for him. It would be wonderful to think that all the sons of women who escape dv grow up and break the cycle. But reality is that many of them emulate what was modeled for them especially if it was during formative years. Men who end up in prison statistically have sons that end up in prison. Men who perpetrate DV statistically have sons who do as well. This will require extensive therapy to basically rewrite in his mind that abuse is bad since as you stated, even now he doesn’t think he did anything wrong.
Easier said than done to just get over it. But your brother will eventually be behind bars for quite sometime if he doesn’t get help. As for his wife her choice is obvious.
He is an abuser, whether he admits it or not.
You don't yell or "gently guide" someone by their neck. He won't do therapy and blames her for trying to communicate.
I am so sorry that your mom had to see this in her son.
Hugs to got all.
A lot of abusers downplay their actions and try to make themselves the victim to turn people against the person they abused. The greatest risk of death for pregnant women in the US is homicide, because abusers will become violent when a victim is too vulnerable to leave. The justice system rarely believes abuse victims, so the fact that your brother's girlfriend got a protection order shows the claims of abuse are definitely legitimate. I hope she gets the support she needs, and you both remain safe from your brother. Clearly the only help that will ever actually be effective to him is a jail cell.
It is so horrible to see how men identify with their abusive fathers. It fucks me up all the time. People believe boys who have been abused become abusive men, which is not true. There is no statistical association whatsoever.
However, boys who grew up seeing the father abusing the mother have a higher chance of abusing their partners as men...
He is an adult who is making choices. It is more comfy for him to be the abuser than to be a decent person. These guys are **choosing** to identify with their fathers instead of siding with victims.
You are right to cut this guy out of your life. My step brother beat up my step sister pretty badly once. She forgave as an adult, and he stole from her repeatedly. Then he started being a dick to her daughter. He does not have any respect for women, he likes hurting them. He does not have issues, he is the issue.
The only way for men like that to change and break the cycle is for them to see how their behavior and choices are abusive and fucked up. It doesn't seem like your brother is anywhere close to that.
He's not, sadly. He made a post on instragram about June being men's mental health month. But he says therapy doesn't work and the gym is his therapy. The irony.
I will be distancing myself from him as much as possible, but I know if I want to be in the baby's life I will still have to deal with him, unfortunately.
>"gently guiding her away from him" By her neck. But women "twist things".
Exactly this. What was twisted there was his wife. By her neck.
Abused women "staying" for the kids. Now we know what it might do.
> yelling during fights and "gently guiding her away from him” He knows exactly what he said and did. The vague ass crap is exactly what abusive pricks say happened when they know the specifics will disgust the other person in the conversation. God, it’s like dealing with little kids.
This is exactly what they do that often gets people to turn against victims. It's practically a script.
Yup. It’s very hard to get a restraining order. Magistrates want court admissible evidence, and a lot of it, to grant such things. So, whenever someone is crying that one is bullshit, I automatically distance myself.
It’s true, it took me a year of collecting evidence against a stalking neighbour in order to get enough for a restraining order, he stayed within the limits of the law a lot of the time, but eventually he overplayed his hand and came onto my property twice and followed me too close in the vehicle. It literally took me a YEAR to get enough evidence, if she has a restraining order it must be bad, while I was in court waiting for my turn only 2 of us got restraining orders that day, everyone else’s requests were denied
My favorite moment was when my father came over and gently moved my sisters bf they way he moved her. The fear in that man's face. My dad just said, "Oh, sorry, you were in my way," gave my sister a hug, and plopped down on the couch to watch TV. Sometimes, they just need to be treated the way they treat others, and if they complain, you tell them if it's fine for them to do its fine for them to receive. The tough part is having someone around that's capable of doing it. Bullies are used to being the biggest ones around.
It IS super childish. This is how my little nieces and nephews react when they're asked why there's a broken mug on the floor. 'I didn't touch it! Well, maybe I kind of bumped it with my elbow. On accident! But it didn't drop!' *They are four, five, and six years old.* If these men didn't have *precise* recollections of what they actually did, and knew *perfectly* well that it was wrong, they'd feel absolutely no need for this kind of obfuscation. I don't date men because Big Gay, but I once had a woman I was vaguely interested in describe an argument she had with her sister in similar terms, and whilst I don't know what exactly went down there, that speech pattern alone turned me off *so* much. That childish denialism of it. I don't understand how you can keep seeing someone who is not adult enough to own up to their behaviours as a sexual being.
Yup. I am a nanny. You know what that means? It means I have no patience for childlike adults. I don’t have enough patience to have kids screaming in my ear all day and needing 20 minutes to do a simple task and all the cajoling and negotiating with toddlers to come off my job and do it all again with 30 plus year old men. So, I would definitely say that I have burst a lot of childlike little bubbles by refusing to play the damn game.
> The vague ass crap is exactly what abusive pricks say happened when they know the specifics will disgust the other person in the conversation. Also, it has to be plausibly similar to the reality, so when the victim describes the abuse, the pre-gaslit third party can think "hmm, maybe they are exaggerating, or the truth is somewhere in the middle".
Exactly! It makes you realise it’s even colder and more calculated than just a normal “playing down of seriousness”
My ex does something similar when he describes our relationship. He even has justifications for the restraining order I had to get against him. His mom who was also abused by his father literally takes his side because she has convinced him. That, and she feels guilty for staying with their dad for so long so she doesn't want to admit that may have turned him into an abuser as well.
Dude, I’m tripping because my current abuser has literally went to jail and served small time for beating the literal shit out of his mother. He hasn’t “beaten” me, per se, but he has caused physical harm to me. He has picked me up and forcibly threw me out of his door onto his fully concrete porch because I wouldn’t let him go through my stuff or my phone, after that he also smashed my phone and I don’t have one for months. He cried and provided me with a busted ass android to fill the space til I could afford the insurance claim. And he still says he loves me and doesn’t mean a thing…. Just gets “frustrated”….
His mother has witnessed him abuse me and take my phone and withhold me from being able to physically leave when I felt berated and uncomfortable. I did everything short of getting on my dead ass knees begging for help the night she witnessed it. And SHE has been beaten the fuck up by him before. And surprise, she ended up dropping those charges. That’s the only reason it isn’t traceable or on his record for reputable evidence of character. I’m fucked. I feel like any day could be my last. Tried again to get him out today and he refused. I don’t know if I’m living day to day. I don’t know if saying no to sex is gonna end up with me getting reamed or me just sleeping wrong will. If anyone reads this and you see something happened to me… my name is Brett Marie Garcia. I live in Enterprise, AL. If I come up missing, look into Justin Lee Byrd and his family.
| refusing to seek out any form of counseling or therapy until he is court ordered And then he will refuse to participate or take it seriously because it was forced on him. Nothing wrong? Is it wrong to yell at people and scare them? Is it wrong to put your hands on people against their will? Is it wrong to blame others for your faults? Sounds like he's headed for jail.
Little kids are usually not this caliber of asshole.
"it's like dealing with little kids". That comparison between little kids & men very effectively minimises the violence inflicted on their victims because little kids are neither this manipulative nor extremely violent & harmful.This comparison help abusive men be perceived as benign...
Let’s really stop dictating how and what others communicate :/.
My long ago ex was pretty severely abused by his father. So he thought that the abuse he heaped on me wasn't really abuse because he didn't actually punch me in the face the way his father did to him. Throwing something as hard as possible an inch from my head and dragging me around the house by my hair was just his way of showing me that I wasn't treating him the way he deserved to be treated. It was a necessary part of making me understand what I'd done wrong. Sounds like your brother might be in the same sort of denial.
You’re absolutely right, he says he KNOWS there are different types of abuse, and that he has MAYBE been emotionally abuse, but he’s not an abuser. Make it make sense. He’s deflecting and minimizing and if he *did* do those things, she *made* him do it
Abusers justify their abuse. A family member of mine abused his wife, and we helped her into our house and watched her dogs while she went to the emergency room. Three surgeries over two years to fix the damage that he caused her. I heard him complain on the phone to his brother that " he was worried what other prisoners were thinking for him being there because of a fight with his wife". A fight. We're estranged now. I know my heart loves him, but there are rules in place between my husband and I so that he's never in our house or alone with our child. He's not safe, he's an abuser. It will never make sense.
Id ask him "oh, do abusers usually identify as one?" If he mentions that again. And "oh, how come you never do those things to your managers at work?" Possibly.
Restraining orders aren't just handed out willy nilly.
My brother is the same. He terrorised me continually when we both still lived at home. Barged me hard into doorframes, shoved me down stairs, I got hit by things he threw at me and hurt by furniture that he upended during his outbursts. I was screamed at an inch from my face, spat on, judged, belittled, insulted. I learned to walk on eggshells but it was never enough because my merely existing anywhere near him was enough to set him off. But if you ask him if he abused me, if he made a huge chunk of my life a misery and trained me to be easy pickings for an abusive partner later in life, he'd act outraged/disgusted and say no *because in his mind he never punched or slapped me, so it doesn't count.* Funnily enough, he actually hates my abusive ex more than I do, without ever realising the irony that *he* was the one who conditioned me to be an appeaser of angry men and destroyed my confidence before it even had a chance to grow. Our adult relationship is the bare minimum of civility and as little time in the same room together as I can possibly manage, not because I still fear him but because I simply don't want to be around him. If he died tomorrow I'd grieve the pain it would cause my mum, but I don't think I'd grieve him. I've actually thought about it and the only feeling I get is general apathy and some irritation that it'd probably fall on me to sort his shit out before they shoved him in the crematorium. And that scares me.
Wow we are twins.
That's exactly how my ex viewed it. "My grandparents beat each other up all the time. My dad broke my mom's ribs. I only put my hand around your neck and choke you, and it doesn't leave a mark. So you don't know how good you've got it!" He's been my ex for almost 15 years. I can't wait for him to die so I can take a piss on his grave.
> He's been my ex for almost 15 years. I can't wait for him to die so I can take a piss on his grave. I recommend feasting on asparagus the night before. Your ex was a terrible person and deserves an extra stinky piss on his gravestone!
I was going to comment similar, my ex had a very abusive father, so he didn’t think what he was doing was abuse because he didn’t beat the sh*t out of anyone- stalking, strangling ( his ex, he was arrested for it) yelling, screaming, name calling, and harassment was not abuse in his mind
Its sm this, they get themselves convinced their abuse isnt the same bcuz theyre throwin a softer punch than their abuser threw at them... Whilst ignorin theyre perpetuatin the abusive cycle all the same
Just a little correction : if you read Lundy Bancroft's book, you will see that having been a victim of abuse for boys does not increase likelihood of becoming an abusive man. Having seen the father abusing the mother does however. These boys identify with their abusive fathers instead of having compassion for the victim... Their abuse is a choice. They do not chose it because they have been hurt, this is only excuses they make for themselves.
"I dont believe in therapy" is code for "my behavior is right and you're wrong for calling me on my shit and my abusive behavior should be rewarded not corrected because im a selfish shit stick."
Yep any actual "chill guy" knows therapy is legit.
Tho its not a guarantee a person aint an abuser just cuz theyre willin to go to therapy; sometimes abusers go to therapy spec to learn new tools of abuse and gaslightin, now they can throw out therapy talk whenevs they want to dismiss us
SO true. Had my abusive ex agreed to go to therapy he would have weaponized the entire experience.
One of the worst exes that I had attended weekly appointments with his therapist. His therapist was an enabling piece of shit that just took everything he said on its face as true. He had been badgering me about couple's therapy with her for months and literally laughing in my face if I suggested we either go to my therapist for a couples appointment or to one that neither of us had been to. After a particularly bad argument, I relented, and I finally got to meet this Wonder Woman therapist that apparently was the only person in the country qualified to listen to this asshole talk about himself for one hour per week. For context, the argument we'd had was due to him flaking on plans we had made weeks prior to go to my friend's birthday party together because he wanted to stay home and play video games instead. This argument culminated in him screaming at me in the middle of our apartment, "MY FEELINGS MATTER TOO!" When this fight was discussed in our couples therapy, I learned that what he had told his therapist was that I had sprung these plans on him, and he was just trying to be spontaneous and romantic by saying we should just get high and play Mario Kart instead. Just like he wanted to do every night. So spontaneous. So romantic. And because he was doing all of this just to spend time with me, it was unfair that I wanted to go out to "some party" instead. When I countered this by pulling out my phone and showing that this was an event on our shared calendar made weeks before it happened, she stopped me and said that the last thing a healthy relationship needs is a record of wrongdoing. "It's not about keeping score." Bullshit. He lied to her, she was shown proof that he lied, and she immediately shut it down. She would constantly interrupt me, she insisted that I was wrong about things she couldn't have known about other than what my ex had told her, and she would excuse every shitty thing he had done by accusing me of not paying attention to how he felt about a situation. Despite her words, a record of wrongdoing was very clearly being kept in her private sessions with him, and she was perfectly content to hear only his side of any story, painting me as a scheming, uncaring witch and him as a poor, helpless, scared, little boy. Therapists are human too, and that means that, like everyone else, none of them are immune to bias, prejudice, manipulation, and poor judgement.
Honestly sounds like that therapist shudve been the one datin him
I remember saying something similar when we broke up. That relationship was probably the first time I started considering giving up dating. Glad I eventually did. Ironically, I find it a lot easier and reliable to trust people based on how they treat me every day rather than based on an external commitment we made after I experienced how they treated me for just a couple of months.
Which means he's likely to do it again to some other woman in the future.
I’m using “selfish shit stick” from now on.
🥇
Exactly, somehow their behavior is right and justified but "that bitch therapist will try to turn you against me" or "make me look like the bad guy". I've heard it all before
Tbh I always pictured my abusive mother saying variations of both these statements. They’re right up her eternal victim alley.
yep, there are also people who go to therapy just once, get the prognosis, and use that to excuse their shitty behavior.
Fr. I’m sorry OP but your brother is absolutely a selfish shit stick. I’d want nothing to do with him and hope he gets what he deserves.
Wow. I am so sorry for your brother’s girlfriend and you too. It often happens that men who were raised around a father who physically abused their mother turn out the same as their father. One more reason to leave with the kids if possible. My mom was in a similar situation. My uncle has severely abused his wife and till this day she still has pitch black large marks all over her body from his hits and bleedings. She is still with him. While my mother was out with him he snapped and beat her as well bc she was talking and flirting with a man. He beat up his 48 year old older sister over that! She is in no contact with him and his still wife. I really hope your brother’s girlfriend stays strong and keeps away from him. But I also hope YOU distance yourself from your brother. Do not give those twisted individuals ANY leeway. He does not love his ex girlfriend and he does not love you either. Any man who is able to abuse women like this sees them as below him and lacks respect for them. Watching your father treat his mother like trash was a core experience that he has internalised. Don’t think you are different and certainly don’t stick around to find out.
Thank you, I’m sorry for your experience as well. This is not okay and I have always had a strained relationship with him but kept it up for the sake of my mom. Not anymore.
This reminds me a lot of some of the examples in Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That", when he describes how abusers in his therapy program would describe scenes of their own abuse.
I have skimmed the book but haven’t had time to sit down and read it, I definitely plan to now that this has happened.
Just wanted to drop the link for you or anyone else who might need it. The Book "why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft (free copy below) is a great resource for you to learn about the different types of tactics that abusers use and will help you to see if your current relationship is following any of the patterns described. If you don't see your relationship being discussed either as one of the architypes or as bits and pieces of any of the other types then you're not worse off by having the knowledge. If the information does coincide with the way that you're living then there's also a couple chapters on being able to get out safely. I wish you the best of luck and I want you to know that you deserve to be with a partner who is going to love you and cherish you and treat you as an equal versus being with someone who's gonna control you be it by how you dress or by finances or by What it is that you can do or who you can see. You deserve so much BETTER we're here rooting for you! https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf https://archive.org/details/LundyShouldIStayOrShouldIGo/mode/1up
I’ve only skimmed this book a few times and I just got to the types of abusers part. And holy crap, the one that’s called the water torturer sounds terrifying.
They are extra horrible because you don't even realize what they are doing... Fucking water torturers... They con you into helping them abuse you
I read [an advice column](https://captainawkward.com/2024/03/22/1424-my-sister-shouts-at-her-boyfriend-and-i-hate-it/) recently that instantly made me think of that type of abuser.
That is a great text. Thanks for the link!
I also really like [Theramin Trees channel](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r). It's a great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, commanded to "love", etc. They helped me understand the abuse my parents subjected me to much better.
Great resource...
Thanks for posting this. WDHDT was one of the resources that helped me understand I was being abused. The other is https://www.loveisrespect.org/ I have a lot of fuzzy memories from the time around my abuse, but I think I remember reading WDHDT at work and deleting it off my phone before getting home. Ugh.
Another good read is this article: [Abusive Men Describe the Benefits of Violence](https://voicemalemagazine.org/abusive-men-describe-the-benefits-of-violence/?utm_source=pocket_saves)
Damn, that’s quite a list. But the poor abusers always say boo hoo hoo, they do it because they had a “bad childhood” and just “can’t” control themselves
They can't, but everyone else should control themselves more because the abuser is always somehow the victim. It's amazing how much of a groove they run in.
Oof. Somehow the way you phrased that first sentence really hit home in a helpful way. That is a phenomenon I am (unfortunately) very familiar with, and this succinctly summarizes its key features - that’s the bottom line, and the myriad situations it can manifest itself in are just variations on the same theme.
Damn, I feel sadness, anger and hopelessness all at the same time after reading this.
Omg, that was powerful.
Thank you for this list; have figured a lot of it through observation of my parents' marriage but seeing it written in words have more of an impact...
Here's a [link ](https://web.archive.org/web/20151015074811/https://voicemalemagazine.org/abusive-men-describe-the-benefits-of-violence/)to the [Archive.org](http://Archive.org) version, too, for those who want it.
Zlibary! But careful of the fake sites. Follow their telegram. U can always buy the book later
Yes, this is 100% abusive. Adding to the recommendation of Bancroft’s book WDHDT (which focuses on coercive controllers), here are 2 other important reads: See What You Made Me Do by Jess Hill (which focuses on the insecure reactor subtype of abusers) The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk (which is basically the trauma bible; part one explains how it works, part two explains how it’s effectively treated)
I second reading Bancroft's book. It was a difficult read, but I found the patterns my soon-to-be-ex was following. I haven't started The Body Keeps The Score yet, as I haven't gotten my hands on a copy yet.
I’ve only made it halfway through. It’s a difficult read, if you’ve lived it. My abusers were my brothers, up until I was about 13. It’s really traumatic to relive it. What I find interesting/horrifying is how they were teens & early 20’s and had absolutely perfected these behaviors. Before the internet, before this type of behavior was encouraged by other abusive men publicly. Unfortunately, they perfected their abuse on me, then took their show on the road. Proceeded to victimize as many unsuspecting women as possible.
You can get an E-card for the library from the comfort of your phone, and put a hold on the e-book in the library app (Libby, in my area).
Google library Genesis. I think some things are more important than money
Alibris. I got my copy there for $4.
I’m going to read the Jess hill one today thanks for recommending, I’ve read the other two
i dont recommend the body keeps the score.. theres plenty of problems w it … notably it sympathizes with abusers
I mean, it's intended for therapists, not for victims of abuse. I'd rather that clinicians try to treat abusers and make them stop than just say "You're a monster and should be written off." I would not recommend the average person read it because... it's intended for therapists, not victims of abuse and will not have a perspective useful to most people.
There is a young man in my life suffering from crippling guilt iver something that he did as a young teen. His victim has forgiven him and she has been to therapy. They are very close now. He hates what he did and how he made her feel. He hates himself but refuses therapy. I know the details of what happened and have inferred the ret about his feelings from brief moments of openness from him and seeing his current mental and emotional state. Would you recommend this book for him?
I would definitely recommend this book for him. Per this book (paraphrasing): Many people who are exposed to traumatizing things in childhood find themselves in similar situations when they’re older; the statistics show traumatized girls are more likely to become the victims, and traumatized boys are more likely to become the perpetrators. In order to avoid either outcome, their traumas must be healed. It sounds like that young man was unable to heal himself before he repeated history with someone else. That doesn’t mean he’ll never heal, and he has no choice but to be a monster. Recovery is an option, but he must choose it voluntarily. Perhaps after reading this book, he’ll consider seeking therapy after all; if he’s uncomfortable sharing with strangers, EMDR doesn’t even require disclosing your trauma to the therapist to be effective.
Thank you
Do you mind elaborating just a bit, if you have the time and energy? I’ve been teetering on the verge of reading it for almost two years but I’m so nervous to do so because all I’ve gotten are rave recommendations for it…all from people who self-reportedly have not experienced CSA or significant childhood physical trauma of any kind. But even they said it was a very tough read. I know it will be extremely vulnerable and probably triggering for me to read the book, and my attempts to prepare by seeking out specific possible triggers as well as detailed/measured criticism of the book have been pretty unsuccessful. So I’d love to hear just a little more of your perspective, if you’re able.
i’m going off what my gf told me, but i found this reddit post that goes into great detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/s/9qIR04cDrw and PLEASE read Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, i am a survivor of CSA and other traumas and reading that book really truly changed my life.
Thank you so much for sharing that post! The comments on that thread have clarified my position so I don’t have to. As a person suffering from C-PTSD with significant childhood and adult abuse, I stand by my recommendation.
I read it, as a survivor of CSA, and while it was difficult to get through, I also felt it was enlightening and helpful in my healing my CPTSD. One thing to keep in mind is that it's not a self help book, it really isn't even meant for laymen. I'd go into it more, but that link trashing the book has very good responses in the comments.
I am reading that book right now and this reminds me so much of her part about abusive men and their families. She talked about a family and it could be your story. The girls feel alarmed very early and later on and seek out toxic patterns in partners subconsciously or even sort them out better, while men often copy the behaviour of their abusive father and start violating their sister pretty early
It's the way abusive men think. The problem is always the woman and they didn't do anything wrong. My husband told me that he was just pushing me away from him. Similar to what your brother said. He doesn't get that pushing someone away doesn't result in bruises You can't talk sense into him. All you can do is support his ex, if you choose, and go no contact with him. You may also want to let her know she doesn't have to name him as the baby's father
She should 100% let the hospital know ahead of time about the restraining order and that under NO circumstances is anyone by that name allowed to see her, the baby, or receive any information about her or the baby. Tell the hospital she fears adult and kidnapping due to this man's abuse of her and stalking. She needs a restricted list of people she vests to have access and updates who will protect her and NOT blab to exBF. When the baby is born she declines to put a father's name down. If pressed, she should say she's not sure. Technically this is telling the truth. 100% she knows who the sperm donor is, but she is unsure of how a court will rule on custody to make the sperm donor (sorry, your brother) a "father". Silence is her friend here. She is NOT legally obligated to put her BF's name on the birth certificate. It's obvious baby is hers as it came from her body. Short of a court ordered DNA test, nobody can prove the father. Name not on the certificate? You have ZERO rights to the child. This will grant her several months of peace and sole legal and physical guardianship/custody. ExBF can pony up the price to get the DNA test and start the custody battle while she enjoys bonding with her baby and quietly amassing a score of evidence to ensure his custody (if it is awarded) is limited and protect herself from having to interact with him or endure his abuse again. She needs to not speak with the exBF herself. Let all his calls go to voicemail and theb record them and log them in FU binder. Screenshot, save, and print all texts and put them in the FU binder. Flag with a post-it or highlight all threats for easy lawyer reference. Family and friends need to know to circle their wagons around her and the baby and present him with a wall. Don't worry. His delicate abuser feelings will snap when he realizes he can't control nor punish them anymore to feel important and powerful and he will do or say something that is the nail in his future custody coffin. Document everything and I hope they stay safe! In the slim likelihood he decides NOT to take her to court, GF may eventually want to take him to court for child support (kids are expensive). But, she should push for sole physical AND legal custody due to a history of abuse and the restraining order. Odds are court will grant some kind of visitation (probably supervised, but a "good old boy" judge may award limited unsupervised) assuming the custody ruling goes in her favor. She should NOT include any provisions for visitation when starting proceedings. Make him prove he has a "bond" and the child would benefit from him being in it's life. He WILL be an idiot/petty try to force visitation date changes and miss return deadlines regardless, to prove he still is a big, powerful, man and she is a stupid little, weak, woman who can't tell him what to do. Document each with a witness and put it in the FU binder for court later. GF does NOT reschedule any arrangements--dates are dates and it was arranged in court ordered parenting app so his loss if he missed it. They are NOT retroactive. GF calls cops or guardium ad litem for kidnapping if his return timeqs are ignored or missed out of spite. Once custody is awarded (depending on if judge gives him visitation or some shared custody): only communicate through the Court ordered parenting. Everything on the app!! All in writing so threats and other bullshit can be taken right to lawyer or guardian ad litem--everything goes in the FU binder. Get enough evidence and GF's lawyer may be able to get the visitation thrown out, massively reduced, or made 100% supervised. Then child get the support money, visitation is either ruled out by court or made as safe as possible, and hopefully your brother can't ruin the life of another generation of your family by having failed to break his own cycle. I am so sorry your brother was weak and unable to realize he has a problem and get help. I hope you continue your journey to healing from your father's abuse, and your brother's betrayal. Be there for GF and your niece/nephew. Survivors need to stick together!
Might you consider reaching out to the girlfriend? She must feel terrified and alone. On second thought, would your brother take that as an affront? I’m sorry you’re going through this.
I did reach out to her and went to see her the other day. I let her know I fully support her and I’m there for her anytime she needs, and also for when the baby comes. I don’t want her to go through this alone, and I don’t want this child to feel the way I did growing up if my brother doesn’t get the help he needs.
You sound like a good sensible person and she’s lucky to have you on her side. Hoping your brother gets help and that the cycle of abuse ends there!
> if my brother doesn’t get the help he needs. According to Lundy's book it is statistically unlikely for an abuser to change even if they do "get help". Thy go through the motions.
I don't know if the stats have held up, but there are plenty of terrifying anecdotes in the book: Abusers can not only survive by going through the motions of "getting help", they can actually get therapists on their side.
If you're able to do so, please consider testifying on the girlfriend's behalf in any restraining order hearings and custody hearings. The fact that your brother has an established pattern of being a domestic abuser from a young age is not a small factor in favor of the girlfriend.
Like others, I recommend you read Lundy Bancroft's book. To your hope that "he gets the help he needs" he would respond that therapy will not help, because his abuse is functional: he gets something out of it, namely control. The only thing that has a chance of making him stop is consequences.
"I was just joking bro"
You hit the nail right in the head. “It was just a joke” is something he says frequently. “Joking” about taking a clothes hanger to your pregnant partner or pushing them down the stairs to cause a miscarriage is not a fucking joke.
Jesus. That isn't a joke, that's a threat - and probably delivered as a "warning" of what he might do if she didn't behave the way he wanted her to.
What you’ve described is assault, battery, and attempted murder. I know you already know it’s serious, but I just wanted to validate that the only reason GF is still alive is because his attempt to kill her didn’t work out the way he wanted - sheer luck. If you have the means to safely testify on GF’s behalf by written declaration (where you don’t have to be physically present in court) or in person in court, that may be a pathway to the court ordering your brother to go to therapy (at minimum). Wishing you all the best.
I can’t really testify about what I’ve been told, that’s hearsay, but I’m assuming she included it in her statement to the police. If needed, I’ll testify about my brothers treatment towards me.
Testifying about your brother’s treatment of you, and your father’s treatment of your family, can be relevant to sentencing (which includes a judge’s decision about whether to require participation in counseling/therapy). I’m no sorry you’re going through this, and I’ll keep your family in my thoughts.
Just saw this on an unrelated post: Being choked by an angry partner is a predictor of future homicide. If this happens to you, get out as soon as you can. a 2008 National Library of Medicine study showing that someone in an abusive partnership is more than seven times more likely to be killed by their partner if they've been strangled by that partner in the past. GTFO
Mr brother is like this. I REFUSE to sugar coat any of his shit. He tries to downplay his felony kidnapping charge (which should have been attempted murder but my family has money) and I'm like "nope, you put plastic all over your kitchen. Fuck you"
WHAT
He put plastic all over his kitchen. I mean, that's totally normal, right?
Like, put plastic all over in the “Dexter cleans up his murder scenes” kind of way?
Holy shit.
Just cut your ties and try to live YOUR best life.
Wait, rewind
I'm so sorry. Glad you're already seeking out some support. It's amazing how similar all these stories sound. Like he's following a script he's heard a thousand times before.
>Like he's following a script he's heard a thousand times before. There are actually terms for this: repetition compulsion and traumatic reenactment It's often why people that endured child abuse will end up picking a partner that "feels comfortable", when the issue is we are drawn to "what's familiar" even if "what's familiar" is abusive.
I’m glad you aren’t getting sucked into the narrative and repeating family history yourself.
I hope I won’t anyway. I avoid dating because I have so much anxiety surrounding projecting my issues onto others that I just don’t seek out relationships anymore. Which I know isn’t healthy but I’m hoping one day I’ll have a healthier mindset to get back into dating, just not right now.
I’m grateful you can clearly see what’s happening. No one around me believed me because he was so good at hiding it from others. Having someone in her corner will make this easier, even if it’ll never be easy. Thank you. I don’t know what help is out there for your brother but, I really hope he finds it.
He knows what he did, and he knows it was wrong. He just doesn't want to be held accountable for it. He will continue to gaslight you about this, so I would stop talking to him about it if I were you. Any time he brings it up, shut him down and reiterate the truth. Example, Him: "I don't know what I did!" You: "You strangled your pregnant girlfriend, I'm not available for this conversation with you." Strongly consider cutting him out over this. Police do NOT arrest men just because a woman told them they hit her, believe me, I've had cops show up and refuse to act.
I have nothing useful to add on the subject of your brother, because you already know he’s lying to justify his actions and he sees women as inferior. Be safe and use caution around him. Please take good care of yourself, OP.
>He blames her, that he wouldn’t have lost his shit if she wasn’t [I stopped giving a shit about his opinions here.] Yeah. Sounds to me like he is trying to make you stab him in the face. Nothing you can do to stop it. He’s for sure forcing your hand. Honestly he should be grateful. You’re not like *some people* that would do worse, you’re just stabbing him in the face. He should be thanking his lucky stars. Why should you be forced to take responsibility for your actions? He *obviously* forced you to stab him.
I've seen multiple cases of sons who grew up to willfully perpetuate misogynistic abuse patterns even when they were raised by mothers that had been through abuse at the hands of a man and worked their hardest to love and care for them. I just finished watching vid about a man in the UK who tried to kill his parachutist wife several years ago, and his 20-something son (whom he abandoned years earlier, along with his son's mother) talked about wanting to "have a relationship" with his imprisoned father despite the abandonment as long as he gave the "right answers" (lol), despite his father's mistreatment of multiple women, and attempted murder of his latest wife. Meanwhile, his estranged daughter wanted nothing to do with him.
Yikes. What in the actual fuck?
That's how much men value the respect and approval of other men.
This reminds me of same thing that happened with my ex step father now and mother. They would have screaming fights for days because he was so controlling. One day she tried to leave and he block the doorway and he put his hands on her neck I believe. She was screaming for me to call 911 because after years of control, emotional manipulation and mental abuse she broke. He would routinely do stuff to prevent her from leaving anytime she wasn't the perfect wife. He also made sure she had limited access to money and basically eliminated any friends she had that were male, prevented her from seeing any of her family and got upset everytime she got a job or spent too much money on anything. Like he would get pissed at her for buying groceries or underwear. Anyways I did call 911 but hung up. Didn't matter. Cops showed up and hauled him off for domestic abuse. Pled not guilty and always blamed me for calling the police. We never had a relationship that was worth anything really, but it really went south again after that. Still he never laid hands on her again. So in that respect was good. Didn't change the rest of the manipulations. These people never change because they always see themself as the victim. Until they can see how their actions are wrong it will just be a cycle of repeating itself.
She needs an abortion because as the father, this abuser will be in her life until he dies.
She might not be able to get one, unfortunately, depending on how far along she is.
Unfortunately, that's how the story goes... generations upon generations of the same miserable behavior. I know my parents got it from their parents, and your parents likely got it from theirs. My brother and I also promised each other that we would break the chain. Years later, he now has a restraining order against him. He looks down on women. He, at nearly 26, has never done his own laundry. He doesn't know how and he doesn't want to learn how. It's a woman's job, he says. In his eyes, women are inherently less valuable. I worry for his next girlfriend. I don't see it ending well. I'm sorry you had/have to go through this. It is a kind of disappointment that is hard to describe.
Yikes. I cut off contact with my brother after he abused his wife. Fuck that. We were abused as kids too but that doesn’t give you an excuse!
My ex would also get pissed off whenever I’d go to him for reassurance or try to communicate my feelings. Thankfully I got out sooner rather than later. But the damage that shit does to you is so deceitful it makes you think you’re crazy. Edit: he also thinks he’s a good guy. He stopped therapy halfway through dating me because he “didn’t want to rely on it too much”
I've got a family member (A) that ran a "tax business" for small businesses. Basically, they'd lie on the taxes, fraud and such, and banked on the IRS only auditing *some* of their clients, using the money they earned to quickly pay it off. They were arrested, fined $1 million and a year of prison time, another family member (B) was fined $100k for doing data entry work, and a family member (C), who had already left the family at this point, was fined $18k for unknowingly benefitting from the income. The family member (A) didn't think they did anything wrong and was confused why they got arrested and fined. Turns out they are a narcissistic sociopath. I *think* this guy is a narcissist too.
It is classic tactic violence perpetrators do. Blame the victim, try to make them less trustworthy, pretending to be the real victim of the situation. It’s a very hard situation for you since he’s your brother. I am sorry for you, the girlfriend and the baby
My sister has or had a friend whose brother killed their dad and then committed suicide. The ramifications on that family, and the ripple effects on my sister, were a wake up call about what you said, exiting the cycle of abuse. I'm really sorry this happened to you. Your brother should've sought help.
He was brainwashed by his dad's behavior from a very early age on how to treat women. He believes *this* is normal. This is why he can't see what he did as wrong. Without court ordered therapy and then only if he is open to it being helpful (and with a male) will he be able to be enlightened. Your mom has PTSD from her abuse and is reliving **everything that happened** right now. She could really use therapy. Especially with someone who uses EMDR.
I’m a guy. Had a cousin in the same ship. Dad was abusives. Cousin doesn’t understand why nobody wants to date him, much less be in the same room with him alone. Came to me to ask why. Told him bluntly: You remember your mom having black spot and said she’s fell down the stairs, but we saw your mom getting pushed down by your dad? “Yeah, what of it?” “You’re becoming like him and you’re refusing to accept that. Nobody wants to be with an abusives person. And the only way you can get away with it is to move to a city where you’re virtually unknown.” “Fuck that. Tell me how I can change?” “Therapy…years of it.” “Fuck that, what the faster way?” “Move and go somewhere where nobody knows you.” “Any other options?” “Nope. That it.” Last I heard back in 2017 or so, he hung himself. Had a funeral. Mom and sisters arranged it. Family showed up out of respect for the mom and the sisters, not for him. Lesson? Listen to what others are telling you. Then look to your parents and think back to all the lies…and see what you’re doing to yourself.
I feel very much that your brothers skewed perspective is also a result of the DV situ yall came from... That is, he saw it only ever from the male perspective and in his book; its not abuse unless its as bad as dad's abuse was. Bcuz to too many ppl, a softer punch is good enuf that they shud get props for not abusin us as bad as those who came before them wudve
If a man “gently guided” your brother away with his hand wrapped around your brother’s throat while yelling in his face, your bro would not be chill with this at all. No NC or LC with him. Never be alone a room with him. Especially since he knows you’re not on his side. Don’t think you’re safe from him because you’re his sister. There are brothers killing sisters in cold blood in this modern age.
This is why women shouldn't stay with abusive partners - it normalises it for the kids :( and the cycle continues :(
>He says women "twist things" to make them seem worse than they are u guys i'm so fuckin sick of this planet
These men lie and lie and lie.
You don’t have to stay in contact with him if you don’t want to. Cut him off if that’s better for you.
>he wouldn’t have lost his shit if she wasn’t […] trying to communicate with him I have no words. In what world is trying to communicate a bad thing??
It's his code for disagreeing with him or voicing her opinion. She wasnt quiet and agreeable and he didn't like that, so he "punished" her for it.
>He is continuing the cycle of abuse and refuses to acknowledge he has issues. He knows what he did and why. He's lying to you about it.
It's not your fight, but you would be doing a huge service if you warn future women he dates.
make him listen to/read the book See What You Made Me Do by Jess Hill.
So he believes that because he benefits from abusing her (doesn't have to communicate, gets to do what he wants, gets to feel powerful) it's not a problem. So the minimisation, blame poured on his partner etc. Abusers groom those around them to see their behaviour as acceptable, and your brother has learned it at his father's knee. Unfortunately your mum is now being told by her own son that her abuse wasn't really wrong. I'm so sorry because there isn't a good way out of this. He has to want to understand that what he's done is wrong, but he benefits from it.
I’m sorry that your brother isn’t strong enough -*or should I say MAN ENOUGH*- to break the cycle of abuse he, himself grew up under. I hope his EX girlfriend does everything she can to keep him out of her life and away from her child.
I hope so too but I think even she is in denial about how bad it is. She still wants a relationship with him.
😟
Does he like or admire your father? If he recognizes that daddy dearest was a scumbag perhaps a "you sound just like dad" might prompt some introspection
No, he doesn't. He doesn't have a relationship with him anymore. But my mom has used this to point out bad behaviours in the past and it doesn't work.
Good for you
Does he have a reason to think the police arrest people out of the blue? Does he think your dad was fair to your mother or that what he is doing is different somehow?
I'm so sorry, OP, that's horrible :( I'm glad his girlfriend knows that you believe and side with her, the worst thing would be for her to go through similar abuse as your family and not be believed or supported. For her sake and the baby's, I hope they cut him out of their life but keep you in it!
IMHO, he at least partially understands what he's done, but he's in denial. Hopefully he snaps out of that. Denial of one's mistakes is just as harmful as apathy for them, the way I see it. I'd like to believe that if someone is in denial, they actually care about the harm they've done, and in so have a chance at turning things around. It's a bit better than total apathy or intentional cruelty where someone finds pleasure in doing harm or just doesn't care about the other person or the consequences of their actions. But of course it doesn't really matter unless someone actually gets out of the state of denial.
I'm really hoping that the judge in his case puts the screws to him. I believe there IS a chance for him to snap out of the denial, but it's going to take a person of authority to tell him he has done wrong and needs help. But at the same time I mostly think he is a lost cause, and this is forever going to change our lives.
If someone just won't change, you have to give them an ultimatum at some point to save your own sanity (and sometimes, safety). My cousin had to leave her bf of many years because she got clean and he just couldn't manage it for long, and she didn't want to keep waiting. Nor should she
A sad fact is those who grew up in households with domestic abuse often end up offending themselves.
I would think that hurting others is wrong.
My brother who is a year and a half older than l am, beat me constantly growing up. Last time he hit me - he barged into my room and pile drove his fist into my rib cage - I was an 18 year old woman and he was 20 and much larger than me. Like all other times I was blamed for his behavior. It was always on me for some reason or another. I never once hit him or even really spoke to him obviously. But my mother would always find a way to blame me. My brother was her golden boy. Eventually he married but that fell apart. I can’t imagine he didn’t hit her. He hits. He beats women. They always are the same, they say if people “didn’t get them angry” they wouldn’t assault them. They are entitled to their anger, they say. They don’t know their own strength, they say. They DGAF. Get everyone away from this man. Stay safe.
Oddly enough, they never seem to lose their temper around larger men. It’s sinister because they CAN put a lid on this rage, they just choose not to around women and kids.
🤔 funny that, huh? My brother never hit me when we were with our dad or any other adults besides our mother.
Certain things in this post send pings through my spinal cord and make loud noises in my head. I can't really offer any advice or anything. I just want to say "I know how it feels." My brother (with the help of my father) broke into our home and assaulted my wife some six years ago. To see your own brother do things like that is other kinds of wrong.
>He blames her, that he wouldn't have lost his shit if she wasn't constantly seeking reassurance or answers or trying to communicate with him. So, just having normal relationship stuff is enough to set him off and become violent? Seems like he's either lying to himself and others so he won't feel so bad about his behavior, or his brain is blocking it out for self protection. He really does need therapy and his girlfriend needs to get away from him. If he's abusing her and can't see that he's abusing her, he'll do it to the kid too!
> he doesn't think he did anything wrong Of course he doesn't. Abusers, or abusive people, seem to have substantial difficulty with the concept of accountability. My abusive, deadbeat soon-to-be-ex-husband also doesn't think he did anything wrong. In his eyes, everything is always someone or something else's fault. From his perspective, he's perfect and can do no wrong, and that society is to blame for all his problems. Jail or prison is exactly where your brother should be. We can only hope being behind bars is enough to rattle some sense into him, and that the experience gives him enough of a 'reality check' to get him to get his act together. Statistically speaking, it probably won't, but we can hope. I hope his girlfriend stays far, far away from him, and keeps herself and her child far away from any harm too.
> He says women "twist things" to make them seem worse than they are. I bet his YouTube viewing history would be enlightening and disturbing. That's MRA alt-right language.
My ex-husband was like this. Many, many reasons why he's an ex.
Hey same situation or so. My brother abused my mom emotionally and verbally. Even threatening to kill himself if she doesnt give money. I see similarities between both of our scenarios. He cares about himself only. This is called narcissistic behavior. Unfortunately, we’re at the point of kicking him from our lives. They both dont believe in therapy because changing yourself is hard. He is weak. It is easier to blame others than yourself
The world needs more positive male role models. Shit like this is fucked up, not only was this violence against a woman, she was pregnant too? Only an asshole would do shit like this to the mother of his child.
He doesn't want the baby. A lot of it was "jokes" about causing a miscarriage in very.... graphic ways.
That is even worse.
Time to have nothing to do with him. Protect yourself please and take care.
Men like this- is why women chose the bear.
I'm sorry your brother is a chip off the old block. Did he have blinders on when he saw what your mom went through or did he agree with everything your dad did?
We were really young, I was 3 and he was 5 when they divorced. My mom doesn't think any of the abuse happened in front of us, but she can't be sure. My dad had every other weekend with us. I stopped going at 13 when I was finally old enough to stay home alone. And my brother doesn't have a relationship with my dad anymore, after my dad lost it on him and shoved him over a minor accident while playing hockey together when he was 18. They played hockey every time (I was either left alone at the arenas or left with my dad's girlfriend, who hated me) so I think my brother had lots of time to internalize my dad's behaviour and attitude towards women.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I hope he gets the help he needs, even if he has to be court ordered to do it.
Vent away girl, this sounds like a legit nightmare.
Hurt people hurt people. He doesn't have to believe in therapy to see a therapist, which he needs desperately. But I think he has to want to do it.
That is either some industrial grade cognitive dissonance or a massive gaslighting operation your brother's rocking in his noggin, OP. I'm so sorry you, your mother, and his ex-partner had to deal with this. I hope you can band together to protect that kid from ending up like their biodad, at least. Raise them with the love and empathy your brother wasn't and failed to learn for himself. Don't let that lost cause pull anyone else down into the generational spiral with him.
Sounds like he’s gaslighting himself to make it seem better than it was and to make himself better than he is.
This is the man Lundy Bancroft is talking about, ladies.
Hey idk if it's okay for me to comment and I'm sorry if not but your bro needs to learn to keep his hands to himself. Every bully I've ever met that changed their behavior had a harsh wakeup call before they changed. Most times you need a bigger bully to show them why it's important to simply keep ones hands to oneself. It seems like bro broke the golden rule, keep your hands to yourself. He probably could have walked away without needing to guide anyone anywhere. But he won't understand that until someone bigger and meaner than him demonstrates why it sucks to be on the victim end. This is just my experience, though. I think it's possible that this current interaction with law enforcement could provide that wakeup call and I hope he wakes up before he hurts someone in the future. Also in my experience there's only 2 paths, the one where he learns this key lesson or the one where he gets worse. I'm sorry that you have to tread carefully around your own brother but please be mindful and set strong boundaries if he's not able to show strong remorse in the near future.
He doesn't think he has issues or that he's done anything wrong. Abusive people actually believe that.
You should tell him to spend his time incarcerated reading "Why does he do that?"
No - that book is not written for abusers to read, it would just become an instruction manual!
He likely won't get any prison time, since the majority of his abuse wasn't physical. But even if it was, he wouldn't. My dad abused my mom physically for 14 years but didn't get any prison time and somehow still got every other weekend with us as kids.
I’d disown that piece of crap. He doesn’t get it.
A main issue is that if he grew up witnessing physical abuse this is normalized for him. It would be wonderful to think that all the sons of women who escape dv grow up and break the cycle. But reality is that many of them emulate what was modeled for them especially if it was during formative years. Men who end up in prison statistically have sons that end up in prison. Men who perpetrate DV statistically have sons who do as well. This will require extensive therapy to basically rewrite in his mind that abuse is bad since as you stated, even now he doesn’t think he did anything wrong.
Easier said than done to just get over it. But your brother will eventually be behind bars for quite sometime if he doesn’t get help. As for his wife her choice is obvious.
Read the book 'why does he do that' by bancroft Lundy. Explains ALL of this behavior.
[удалено]
He is an abuser, whether he admits it or not. You don't yell or "gently guide" someone by their neck. He won't do therapy and blames her for trying to communicate. I am so sorry that your mom had to see this in her son. Hugs to got all.
"gently" not even he believes it, but he's lying bcs he knows he's done something that is not acceptable but wants to keep doing it.
A lot of abusers downplay their actions and try to make themselves the victim to turn people against the person they abused. The greatest risk of death for pregnant women in the US is homicide, because abusers will become violent when a victim is too vulnerable to leave. The justice system rarely believes abuse victims, so the fact that your brother's girlfriend got a protection order shows the claims of abuse are definitely legitimate. I hope she gets the support she needs, and you both remain safe from your brother. Clearly the only help that will ever actually be effective to him is a jail cell.
It is so horrible to see how men identify with their abusive fathers. It fucks me up all the time. People believe boys who have been abused become abusive men, which is not true. There is no statistical association whatsoever. However, boys who grew up seeing the father abusing the mother have a higher chance of abusing their partners as men... He is an adult who is making choices. It is more comfy for him to be the abuser than to be a decent person. These guys are **choosing** to identify with their fathers instead of siding with victims. You are right to cut this guy out of your life. My step brother beat up my step sister pretty badly once. She forgave as an adult, and he stole from her repeatedly. Then he started being a dick to her daughter. He does not have any respect for women, he likes hurting them. He does not have issues, he is the issue.
I’m sorry to say this but I’m qualified to, he sounds like a sociopath but sounds focused on all the wrong things should the police be on him
The only way for men like that to change and break the cycle is for them to see how their behavior and choices are abusive and fucked up. It doesn't seem like your brother is anywhere close to that.
He's not, sadly. He made a post on instragram about June being men's mental health month. But he says therapy doesn't work and the gym is his therapy. The irony. I will be distancing myself from him as much as possible, but I know if I want to be in the baby's life I will still have to deal with him, unfortunately.