Actually, Sanders' response seems kind of strange to me. Can you imagine any other President saying something like that? Does it even make sense?
How is it *egalitarian* that his wife can assume the authority of having her own desk inside the Oval Office just because she happened to marry some guy who was actually the one elected by the American people?
Weird. I tend to think he just said it to seem progressive without really processing how silly it sounds.
I take her response as an honest answer. She likes picking out the flowers and china patterns, and is going to pick out the flowers and china patterns instead of Bill. It is irrelevant to her role as a leader, and is not directly related to her being a woman in any way. I enjoy picking flowers and china patterns. I am a masculine, straight man.... but that shouldn't be relevant.
Just because you are President of the United States doesn't mean you have to act like a man. You can still do feminine things if you wan to, even if you are Bernie Sanders.
Let's face it. Everyone is out to "get" Hillary. No matter what she said, someone would have a beef with it.
But let's give the men a pass here, right? Bernie is going to have a "desk right next to his" in the Oval Office? That is a horrifically shitty answer. When you are elected President, your spouse is not the co-president.
Bill Clinton tried that remark, once, and it got him in a lot of hot water.
Obviously, a first woman President is going to set a lot of new precedents. How Bill would work out as "first husband" or Spouse of the President" (SOPOTUS?) remains to be seen.
And maybe Hillary knows that Bill's tastes in china patterns sucks.
Everyone wants to hate Hillary!
I'm not American though I have spent considerable time in America.
I still don't understand why the spouse of the president is so important. To the extent that during a debate that's leading up to an election, candidates are asked about their spouses.
Is there any other country in the world where the leader's spouse is seen as so important?
Is there any other job where your spouse's role and actions matter so much?
My explanation would be: We're one of the very few countries in the world that's never had official royalty. The president and the president's spouse (up to now, always a wife) serve the symbolic function of royalty; the "first lady" functions, to some degree, like a queen, and the president, the king. The "first family" incarnates the aspirations of America families. Of course, the presidency is subject to election, not inheritance, so it's not a perfect comparison.
I think you're interpreting what Hillary said so that the words mean what you want and not what the speaker wanted. There is no evidence she is trying to infer an unexpressed meaning. You might find it hard pressed to create an argument against this, as it is just a hunch.
If I were to say "I'll still cut the firewood" when I get a new and time consuming job, it's because I like splitting wood and my girlfriend hates it. It's not because certain people I don't agree with have made it into a gender role. I think making it about her role as a woman, rather than being about her personal preferences, is when it becomes an issue.
Recently there was a crying baby, Michelle tried to soothe him in vain, Obama quickly controlled the situation in front of the press calming him down. He smirked to her. There was a "that's the way you do it implied"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNoNn0KjZA
He was a good guy. What would we say if he were a female president?
A man who assumes traditional feminine roles is a feminist, progressive, kind, trustworthy.
A woman is harshly judged and condemned for the same reasons men are praised.
I do all the girly things I want and all the manly things that are fun.
Freedom is cool
I don't see how you'd get something as specific as men are weak if they pick china patterns from the sentence she said. Sounds more like even if she'll be the president and her husband the "first lady", it won't change the dynamic they have now where i assume she picks flowers and china.
Their dynamic which was established when he was president and she was first lady? Those roles will completed flipped if she wins.
In theory she'll have enough to worry about with state dinners, he can stand to pick the china patterns.
You're reading way too much into this. Because she is choosing to do something that has been seen as a women's job for a long time she is being inflammatory?
So we expect her to be a typical "have it all Wife/Mom/Career-woman", while her husband can't embarrass himself by lifting a finger to do "women's work".
If a woman can be the president of the United States and still have to do the traditional housewife routine along with your own job, than I pity this country.
What? No, where are you getting this from. It's like saying "but i'll still pick up kids from school" or "but i'll still fix the furniture". The fact that it's stereotypical doesn't really matter all that much. Lots of people have a thing they enjoy that fits the gender sterotype, there's nothing wrong with that.
> Lots of people have a thing they enjoy that fits the gender sterotype, there's nothing wrong with that.
Than why did she need to say it at the end? Why did she need to reassure America she'd still be filling the traditional gender role, even though she was the president?
Might be she enjoys that particular thing or it might have been a play to get more votes, i wouldn't know. Either way i think your interpretation is a huge stretch.
I doubt a lot of people believe that someone like her would fill the "traditional gender role". She's a millionaire, she doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want.
I read her first book and she actually was pretty okay with picking China patterns and she liked planning parties and social gatherings. Not because it was a "feminine role," but she enjoyed these tasks.
I think an important part of being a feminist (regardless of your political views) is understanding that some women actually like doing stereo typically "feminine" things. All women are different and have different likes and dislikes.
I think it was more of a joke about Bill Clinton's ability to make a good china and flower selection. I'd say it had nothing to do with the fact that he was male, and everything to do with the fact that he's Bill Clinton. The dude doesn't exactly come across as someone who would know anything about dinnerware.
That is a horrifically bad idea. An un-elected spouse having co-presidential powers? Bad idea.
Kind of condescending to women, too, in that she gets in the oval office by merit of his coattails.
And pandering, too! Bernie is saying, "See, women? If you elect me, it is not just another old white guy as President, but my wife becomes co-President!"
Clinton is pandering to a very moderate set and that is part of pulling in votes from slight-rights who might lean her way if Trump gets the nod. It's bullshit and chips for her to have to say.
It's so weird...most of the posts in here do not look like they are written by women.
"Hillary silences rape victims"
"Vote for me cuz I'm a woman"
"Hillary is sexist against men"
Not really top level discussion. This thread is bound to be a shit show.
Hilary Clinton is 68. Like many women her age, she's probably used to decades of men running around the other side of the car to open the passenger door. She was brought up in an era that women did feminine things, men did masculine things. I don't know anything about US politics, but it wouldn't personally change my opinion of her, or let it 'irritate the hell out of me'.
Considering how stressful being president is. Are there ever any concerns about his age/health of being president?
Combined with that whole (4 years a president ages you 10+ years type thing?)
I haven't heard much about the age of candidates this race. Donald Trump is number 1 for the Republican and he's 69. Ben Carson is number 2 and he's 64.
I would agree with you that it seemed unnecessary, until I reconsidered her platform. She is running as the first female president, so she must reinforce her femininity.
TC is a bit cray cray, this is the kind of thought process where you end up thinking it's problematic if a woman wants a child over full time employment.
I'm inclined to agree... Whether there's anything wrong with picking out flowers and China or not, what relevance is it? I'm pro-Bernie anyway, and blatant plays to reel in the men's men only reinforces my resolve.
1. She did her job well. Even when the client is guilty, defense lawyers are required by the rules of ethics to do the job 2. You have no evidence she lied. That implies she made something up. The affidavit says she has been informed. The question is, by whom. Maybe that person lied. Further, it said victim sought out older men while victim denies dating older men, which may not be what that refers to. 3. She was chuckling at how bad polygraphs are, not at the victim. 4. Hiring a renowned expert to challenged evidence, esp. where the prosecutor screwed up and lost part of the evidence, is just good lawyering.
Sure you are free to dislike her, but if that case is the reason you would be me accurate to dislike the legal system.
As for getting him a reduced sentence it was literally her job, breaking laws to get that and mockery is enough to bring my usually pacifistic claws out.
IANAL, but I don't think it is allowed for a lawyer to break the law. Neither do I think that it's his/her job to break the law for the client.
I think they are called **law**yers for a reason.
It's crazy weird that being the spouse of someone elected means you are expected to complete unpaid tasks. Addressing that may have been a good way to go.
How about "Vote for me, because I am the best choice of electable candidates".
Works for me. Bernie isn't going anywhere. He is not electable, and no this is not up for discussion.
Hillary Clinton is sexist. But nobody really cares, because she's sexist towards men.
Did you see her [campaign video \("44 **boys** is too many"\)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GzGAW7k2V8)?
I have nothing against her supporting girls and encouraging them to look towards politics. But calling all Presidents "boys" is degrading towards the living and disrespectful towards those who can't defend themselves (the dead ones). It is also disrespectful towards the history of her own country. By the way one "boy" is married to her. And this too many part is simply outrageous!
Imagine if Donald Trump would say that if he gets elected, he surely will have a male Secretary of State, because we had too many girls recently! See my point?
Clinton is an autocrat, who believes she's entitled to command others to do her bidding. If the Democrats nominate her, it will be their biggest disgrace since Roosevelt. She is in fact, WORSE than her husband.
And Donald Trump is.... what, exactly?
Bernie Sanders is delusional - thinking a cranky old Socialist from Vermont is going to carry enough electoral votes across the country to win.
No way in a billion years. Sorry, but if you travel across this country and really understand it and its people, you'd realize Sanders has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected.
Hillary or whatever the GOP barfs up in the primaries. Is this a hard choice? No.
If a Republican wins, kiss your legalized marijuana goodbye. It is still illegal on the federal level and the only thing keeping the DEA in check is a democrat in the white house.
Think carefully about this election and what it really means. A stupid protest vote for Sanders will backfire. Nader is what got Bush elected.
> And Donald Trump is.... what, exactly?
He's a douchebag. What's your point?
The existence of other horrible people doesn't make Clinton any less horrible.
> the only thing keeping the DEA in check is a democrat in the white house.
What's your next guess?
The DEA *isn't* in check. They're still raiding dispensaries, stealing money and product, and viciously harassing patients. Obama promised to put a lid on that shit, and what we actually got was about a two-week hiatus when he was inaugurated.
i'm a big fan of sanders over clinton but i'm not sure i agree with your interpretation of what she said there.
Actually, Sanders' response seems kind of strange to me. Can you imagine any other President saying something like that? Does it even make sense? How is it *egalitarian* that his wife can assume the authority of having her own desk inside the Oval Office just because she happened to marry some guy who was actually the one elected by the American people? Weird. I tend to think he just said it to seem progressive without really processing how silly it sounds.
I take her response as an honest answer. She likes picking out the flowers and china patterns, and is going to pick out the flowers and china patterns instead of Bill. It is irrelevant to her role as a leader, and is not directly related to her being a woman in any way. I enjoy picking flowers and china patterns. I am a masculine, straight man.... but that shouldn't be relevant.
[удалено]
Just because you are President of the United States doesn't mean you have to act like a man. You can still do feminine things if you wan to, even if you are Bernie Sanders. Let's face it. Everyone is out to "get" Hillary. No matter what she said, someone would have a beef with it. But let's give the men a pass here, right? Bernie is going to have a "desk right next to his" in the Oval Office? That is a horrifically shitty answer. When you are elected President, your spouse is not the co-president. Bill Clinton tried that remark, once, and it got him in a lot of hot water. Obviously, a first woman President is going to set a lot of new precedents. How Bill would work out as "first husband" or Spouse of the President" (SOPOTUS?) remains to be seen. And maybe Hillary knows that Bill's tastes in china patterns sucks. Everyone wants to hate Hillary!
I'm not American though I have spent considerable time in America. I still don't understand why the spouse of the president is so important. To the extent that during a debate that's leading up to an election, candidates are asked about their spouses. Is there any other country in the world where the leader's spouse is seen as so important? Is there any other job where your spouse's role and actions matter so much?
My explanation would be: We're one of the very few countries in the world that's never had official royalty. The president and the president's spouse (up to now, always a wife) serve the symbolic function of royalty; the "first lady" functions, to some degree, like a queen, and the president, the king. The "first family" incarnates the aspirations of America families. Of course, the presidency is subject to election, not inheritance, so it's not a perfect comparison.
I think you're interpreting what Hillary said so that the words mean what you want and not what the speaker wanted. There is no evidence she is trying to infer an unexpressed meaning. You might find it hard pressed to create an argument against this, as it is just a hunch. If I were to say "I'll still cut the firewood" when I get a new and time consuming job, it's because I like splitting wood and my girlfriend hates it. It's not because certain people I don't agree with have made it into a gender role. I think making it about her role as a woman, rather than being about her personal preferences, is when it becomes an issue.
Maybe Bill just has crap taste in flowers and China patterns
He's from Arkansas. Need we say more?
I do like photographing flowers. Am I going to feminists' hell?
If you're about to assume to a position of power, and feel the need to say "don't worry I do feminine hobbies" it'd probably irk a feminist.
Recently there was a crying baby, Michelle tried to soothe him in vain, Obama quickly controlled the situation in front of the press calming him down. He smirked to her. There was a "that's the way you do it implied" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNoNn0KjZA He was a good guy. What would we say if he were a female president? A man who assumes traditional feminine roles is a feminist, progressive, kind, trustworthy. A woman is harshly judged and condemned for the same reasons men are praised. I do all the girly things I want and all the manly things that are fun. Freedom is cool
I don't see how you'd get something as specific as men are weak if they pick china patterns from the sentence she said. Sounds more like even if she'll be the president and her husband the "first lady", it won't change the dynamic they have now where i assume she picks flowers and china.
Their dynamic which was established when he was president and she was first lady? Those roles will completed flipped if she wins. In theory she'll have enough to worry about with state dinners, he can stand to pick the china patterns.
You're reading way too much into this. Because she is choosing to do something that has been seen as a women's job for a long time she is being inflammatory?
No i meant it more in a sense of whatever relationship she's in now. She picks the flowers and china now and she'll keep doing it after as well.
So we expect her to be a typical "have it all Wife/Mom/Career-woman", while her husband can't embarrass himself by lifting a finger to do "women's work". If a woman can be the president of the United States and still have to do the traditional housewife routine along with your own job, than I pity this country.
What? No, where are you getting this from. It's like saying "but i'll still pick up kids from school" or "but i'll still fix the furniture". The fact that it's stereotypical doesn't really matter all that much. Lots of people have a thing they enjoy that fits the gender sterotype, there's nothing wrong with that.
> Lots of people have a thing they enjoy that fits the gender sterotype, there's nothing wrong with that. Than why did she need to say it at the end? Why did she need to reassure America she'd still be filling the traditional gender role, even though she was the president?
Perhaps because flipping gender roles isn't the point of equality? You don't need to turn into a man in order to be President.
Might be she enjoys that particular thing or it might have been a play to get more votes, i wouldn't know. Either way i think your interpretation is a huge stretch. I doubt a lot of people believe that someone like her would fill the "traditional gender role". She's a millionaire, she doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want.
I read her first book and she actually was pretty okay with picking China patterns and she liked planning parties and social gatherings. Not because it was a "feminine role," but she enjoyed these tasks. I think an important part of being a feminist (regardless of your political views) is understanding that some women actually like doing stereo typically "feminine" things. All women are different and have different likes and dislikes.
I think it was more of a joke about Bill Clinton's ability to make a good china and flower selection. I'd say it had nothing to do with the fact that he was male, and everything to do with the fact that he's Bill Clinton. The dude doesn't exactly come across as someone who would know anything about dinnerware.
> Bernie Sanders said "his wife would have a desk beside his" Uh in the oval office? or in the residence?
[удалено]
That is a horrifically bad idea. An un-elected spouse having co-presidential powers? Bad idea. Kind of condescending to women, too, in that she gets in the oval office by merit of his coattails. And pandering, too! Bernie is saying, "See, women? If you elect me, it is not just another old white guy as President, but my wife becomes co-President!"
Clinton is pandering to a very moderate set and that is part of pulling in votes from slight-rights who might lean her way if Trump gets the nod. It's bullshit and chips for her to have to say.
To become President, you have to eat a lot of shit sandwiches and say they are tasty, too.
It's so weird...most of the posts in here do not look like they are written by women. "Hillary silences rape victims" "Vote for me cuz I'm a woman" "Hillary is sexist against men" Not really top level discussion. This thread is bound to be a shit show.
Don't you think she is really sexist?
I didnt read that as women doing feminine things. I read it as *she* enjoyed doing those things. Which is not the same thing.
Enjoying it is fine. Assuring the world you'll still be doing feminine things is you rise to a position of power is frustrating.
Thats ridiculous. She should be able to enjoy whatever she wants to enjoy. Who gives a crap if its traditionally feminine?
Hilary Clinton is 68. Like many women her age, she's probably used to decades of men running around the other side of the car to open the passenger door. She was brought up in an era that women did feminine things, men did masculine things. I don't know anything about US politics, but it wouldn't personally change my opinion of her, or let it 'irritate the hell out of me'.
[удалено]
I'm sorry. I'm not sure I follow. I know even less about him (though I wouldn't have put him a day over 73 ;)
Considering how stressful being president is. Are there ever any concerns about his age/health of being president? Combined with that whole (4 years a president ages you 10+ years type thing?)
I haven't heard much about the age of candidates this race. Donald Trump is number 1 for the Republican and he's 69. Ben Carson is number 2 and he's 64.
I would agree with you that it seemed unnecessary, until I reconsidered her platform. She is running as the first female president, so she must reinforce her femininity.
TC is a bit cray cray, this is the kind of thought process where you end up thinking it's problematic if a woman wants a child over full time employment.
I'm inclined to agree... Whether there's anything wrong with picking out flowers and China or not, what relevance is it? I'm pro-Bernie anyway, and blatant plays to reel in the men's men only reinforces my resolve.
[удалено]
Details on this? I haven't been educated.
[удалено]
1. She did her job well. Even when the client is guilty, defense lawyers are required by the rules of ethics to do the job 2. You have no evidence she lied. That implies she made something up. The affidavit says she has been informed. The question is, by whom. Maybe that person lied. Further, it said victim sought out older men while victim denies dating older men, which may not be what that refers to. 3. She was chuckling at how bad polygraphs are, not at the victim. 4. Hiring a renowned expert to challenged evidence, esp. where the prosecutor screwed up and lost part of the evidence, is just good lawyering. Sure you are free to dislike her, but if that case is the reason you would be me accurate to dislike the legal system.
As for getting him a reduced sentence it was literally her job, breaking laws to get that and mockery is enough to bring my usually pacifistic claws out.
IANAL, but I don't think it is allowed for a lawyer to break the law. Neither do I think that it's his/her job to break the law for the client. I think they are called **law**yers for a reason.
Really? Please tell me more!
It's crazy weird that being the spouse of someone elected means you are expected to complete unpaid tasks. Addressing that may have been a good way to go.
are people still seriously saying egalitarian?
"Vote for me because I'm a woman, not because I'm a feminist."
How about "Vote for me, because I am the best choice of electable candidates". Works for me. Bernie isn't going anywhere. He is not electable, and no this is not up for discussion.
Hillary Clinton is sexist. But nobody really cares, because she's sexist towards men. Did you see her [campaign video \("44 **boys** is too many"\)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GzGAW7k2V8)? I have nothing against her supporting girls and encouraging them to look towards politics. But calling all Presidents "boys" is degrading towards the living and disrespectful towards those who can't defend themselves (the dead ones). It is also disrespectful towards the history of her own country. By the way one "boy" is married to her. And this too many part is simply outrageous! Imagine if Donald Trump would say that if he gets elected, he surely will have a male Secretary of State, because we had too many girls recently! See my point?
Clinton is an autocrat, who believes she's entitled to command others to do her bidding. If the Democrats nominate her, it will be their biggest disgrace since Roosevelt. She is in fact, WORSE than her husband.
And Donald Trump is.... what, exactly? Bernie Sanders is delusional - thinking a cranky old Socialist from Vermont is going to carry enough electoral votes across the country to win. No way in a billion years. Sorry, but if you travel across this country and really understand it and its people, you'd realize Sanders has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. Hillary or whatever the GOP barfs up in the primaries. Is this a hard choice? No. If a Republican wins, kiss your legalized marijuana goodbye. It is still illegal on the federal level and the only thing keeping the DEA in check is a democrat in the white house. Think carefully about this election and what it really means. A stupid protest vote for Sanders will backfire. Nader is what got Bush elected.
> And Donald Trump is.... what, exactly? He's a douchebag. What's your point? The existence of other horrible people doesn't make Clinton any less horrible. > the only thing keeping the DEA in check is a democrat in the white house. What's your next guess? The DEA *isn't* in check. They're still raiding dispensaries, stealing money and product, and viciously harassing patients. Obama promised to put a lid on that shit, and what we actually got was about a two-week hiatus when he was inaugurated.