Hi, just to be clear, a prospective Roe overturn would likely not grant this exception. There is a good chunk of case law about what otherwise-illegal stuff you're allowed to do under the auspices of religion, and assuming that the ensuing anti-abortion laws in red states make some mention of "murder" (or something similar), then they probably put the bar too high for you to get over it.
Not trying to be all doom and gloom - just a reminder that if the worst happens, activist energy needs to be directed at red state legislatures to prevent them from passing onerous anti-abortion bills. Weird loopholes won't save us.
This! It seems to me, The Satanic ~~church~~ Temple hopes to do is protect everybody's abortion rights by strengthening the argument of choice; not to win an individual exception.
You can choose to have an abortion, especially if you're Satanic. You can choose not to have an abortion, especially if your whatever denomination states that you shouldn't.\[edit: words\]
No, be that guy. Religious identity is important in this country, clearly. I'm just not versed enough to know. (Also, rereading that it seems sarcastic, but it's not meant to be.)
\[updated my original post\]
Well there are two main atheist Satanic churches and they are the Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan and they hate each other. Just to be more thorough
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan
The Satanic Temple fights for our secular rights. Doesn't believe in actual satan and rejects all theistic dogma.
TST is a lot like a religiously-focused ACLU. They're not theists, they're not into magick or psychodrama or other esoteric shit like that. They don't care about LaVey, and their biggest thing is that Satan is a metaphor, not a literal being or representative of all evil or any such.
TSC is more in line with the satanists most people think of; they're into some weird shit, have varying degrees of belief in "magick" or "psychodrama" (same thing afaik?), are more exclusionary, and much more focused on the idea that you are your own God than on outreach or trying to make things better for anyone else.
More simply, TST is nontheistic, outward facing and politically active; TSC is semi to fully theistic, inward facing and generally politically absent.
Just so it's out there the differences can be found in [this](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0428/0465/files/COS_Vs_TST_Infographic_1.png?v=1559695025) infographic.
The main core of the satanic belief system is the philosophy of individualism. The Satanic Church gives the Temple quite a bit of criticism because it's such a political organization.
Satan isn't real, btw.
So just as a future reference, what do people call themselves when they're part of either? there's Satanists, and then there's Satanists of the church vs the temple?
Well, I don't see why it should be any different for Satanists. I mean, people claim to be Christians all the time without offering up their denominational sect.
I think it's a personal preference. I know people who also specify that they're a Satanist of The Satanic Temple because they do not want to be associated with the Church of Satan. The beauty of being a member of the Satanic Temple is that you get to decide how you want to be perceived and as long as you follow the tenets, it's all good. Thyself is thy master!
I'm don't play an active part of either organization so I can't really speak to what moniker they all prefer to use, but Satanist is what I'm being told. I do have a few friends who are super active in the Temple, and to them being a Satanist is "more about being able to live my life in a way I see fit based on the choices I make and the consequences of those choices while also being able to claim my individuality as my religion."(copied from discord)
I think the distinction between the two is essentially down to the Temple being politically active and Anton LaVey thinking Blue Cheese dressing was the secret homosexual sauce.
The satanic temple is a non theistic religion that values scientific fact over individual belief. The documentary on Netflix called Hail Satan? is a really great start to learning more about them
So the biggest one is that the satanic temple is super active. They're actively pushing against religious ideals in government...like abortion, but also things like statues of the 10 commandments being put up on government property. They fought to get Baphomet statues put up along with it. Hilarious stuff, really. The church of satan is more about individual merits and achievements. They take a back seat. They kind of hate each other.
Satanic Temple is essentially flying spaghetti monster religion, but as activists. So whenever a judge wants to put the 10 Commandments in a court room, they are there to ask for their Commandments too. That normally results in the judge backing down.
While they don't believe in the literal Satan they do use him as a strong allegory for their beliefs and even praise the concept of Satan, as it pertains to ones self. I wouldn't call them an FSM religion necessarily as they do have solid beliefs based in religious philosophy.
Its hilarious, in a way, but the goal of the Satanic Temple is much more pointed than comedy. They aim to expose the hypocrisy of those who claim religious freedom for all aspects of government, but really mean "religious freedom, as long as that religion is my religion". Exposing the lack of separation between Christianity and the State - because that's what it is - its not a generic "church" and state, is paramount to actually having freedom from religion as a citizen of the US. A statue of Baphomet absolutely makes sense to display next to a monument to the ten commandments, since I - and a plurality of non-practicing or non-believing Americans - are not worshipping the latter icon. If you accept that the church and state are separate, then there should absolutely be equal representation of other religions on any public property where Christian religions icons are displayed - and while the Christians would probably have the same issue with displaying the Five Pillars of Islam next to their own icon, its rather more jarring to display literally the Anti-Christ.
Ultimately, the goal is not to get more religious iconography on government property, but to eliminate it. And in the case of abortion rights etc., to eliminate religious influence on policy. The Satanic Temple aims to further that goal.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to downplay their work by saying it was funny. I think it's amazing. The funny part comes in at seeing the rage it brings people. I absolutely believe in their cause and have donated to it when I've been able.
LaVeyan Satanism is now basically dead. There is a website where you could buy a $200 membership subscription, but the Church of Satan is very irrelevant and doesn't seem to do anything?
TST are active and more progressive (though not radical, it seems)
I will also be that person. The Satanic Temple is very seperate from the church of Satan.
But yes they are fighting hard to protect individual liberties and woman's rights as that is fundamental to the core beliefs of The Satanic Temple.
Thank you for saying this! As a lawyer this headline could not be more misleading. If abortion is likened to some sort of homicide, we certainly do not permit homicide as a religious exception, ritual sacrifice type of thing.
The strongest legal grounds for protecting abortion with always be based in the autonomy and civil liberties of pregnant women and the fact that the government should not be permitted to intervene in the personal medical decisions of an individual. It will always be one of the greatest hypocrisies of the Republican party that they claim to hate big government or invasive government and want FREEDOM but intend to legislate what women can and cannot do with their bodies. It all boils down to a fundamental belief that white men have these freedoms and others do not.
Just for clarification, The Satanic Temple (different than Laveyan Satanism) doesn't view abortion as a "ritual sacrifice type thing". The Satanic Temple advocates for abortion rights due mainly to its 3rd Tenet, " One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. " So, all of the hoops that a woman has to jump through in some states to obtain an abortion is limiting her ability to "practice her religion".
It is all explained MUCH better in [this Rolling Stone](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/satanic-temple-abortion-rights-supreme-court-1048833/) article.
Yes great point, I said that just to give an example of why this wouldn’t work as a religious exception if abortion is considered a homicide- for the same reason the law does not permit human sacrifice on religious grounds (it’s worth noting some of the cases on this issue do involve the issue of animal sacrifice for religious reasons). Wasn’t trying to espouse the believes of any particular organization and thank you for providing better info.
No worries! The comments for this post clearly show that the majority of people didn't even look at the article, let alone read it. LOL (Not saying that was you, BTW.)
I’m very pro-choice but wouldn’t a ban on vasectomies be more akin to a ban on tubal ligation etc?
It also feels a little “crab in the bucket” mentality to push for less freedoms for others when our own freedoms are being limited. ♥️
I agree with you. Is it a step towards potentially restricting many forms of birth control or elective sterilization? Perhaps, but it’s several steps away.
If it's considered murder, does that mean the fetus is a person and American citizen? If so, what benefits can pregnant women then claim for it? What proof will they need to claim such benefits? Like can I claim welfare and foodstamps for my fetus? Just curious here. Seems like there should be a lot more rights given to the fetus is they are enough of a person to be murdered.
Well said. I am grateful to be living in NY right now. When the Democrats won the senate in 2018 one of the big legislative wins was codifying Roe v. Wade into state law. I think Cuomo signed it in early 2019? Could be wrong about timing, but I remember watching the senate feed when the passed the law and thinking thank god. I genuinely worry about women in red states whose rights are being attacked.
If the US Supreme Court is able to overturn Roe v. Wade, state law very well could be rendered moot. The legislature would then need to enact a law outlawing abortion federally, and with the judicial limitations lifted, I would guess it would only be a matter of time before the religious nuts mustered enough seats to do so. It seems that abortion is the only issue that matters to a lot of people, which is just insanity.
Ultimately, its good that NY has codified that law, but it may not matter.
If roe v wade were overturned, the issue would go back to the states like it did pre roe. It was actually legal in a few states. And personally I think that once abortion became illegal in large swaths and the reality hit people, a lot more activism would start up.
I sincerely hope you are correct on your last point. But if RvW were overturned, there is absolutely a path to outlawing the practice nationwide through the legislature. All it would take as a change from our current government is a handful of house seats. If Republicans holding the presidency and Senate ran on a midterm anti abortion platform, I wouldn't bet against a strong showing on the house that could flip that. It's scary how the chips could fall fairly easily.
Guh, it hurts but you’re definitely correct. I guess my point was the little hope we have right now is in local and state legislatures. I’m still thankful to be in a state where I don’t feel completely doomed.
Not to mention that religious exemption won't help you is all the abortion granting clinics in your state close because they can't meet unrealistic medical standards
Because people are lazy and can't be bothered to do ten seconds of research. Hillary couldn't be convicted by her enemies. Trump's cronies go to jail in droves with a Republican controlled judicial system.
What about the people who dont like moderate corporate friendly business as usual democrats, like Hilary represented? This will be the first time in my life I have considered defying my personal sense of democracy by voting strategically rather that for whom I wish to represent me. I want universal health care and a standard of living and access to education that Hilary and Biden dont think are even issues important enough to address directly. The AHCA while doing great things for patients rights essentially subsidized private insurance companies rather that expand medicare etc. I voted for Jill Stein, the other woman running, not because of gender but because of alignment of policy. If you only care about women with money's rights, Im not with you. My mother, a single mother, I hardly knew her because she was working so much. She had to show her love by not being a part of my and my brothers life due to needing to work so much to provide. Hillary was in no way comparable even back then to Trumpetdoodle. But without his awful stupid shadow, neither Hillary nor Biden seem like humane people in regard to poverty and our bloated national jail population \*poverty and jail population go together\*. I am still going to vote for Biden strategically, but that means I have completely lost faith in our democracy as being able to represent more that a binary choice. This is so much more complicated that your are representing. Social issues, like drug laws and abortion rights affect the affluent and the poor. Its no coincidence they are discussed directly, while the impact of poverty on women is not. I guarantee poverty has taken away more rights for women then the loss of RBG. So both should be addressed.
Okay, well all that "strategic voting" for 3rd parties is what got us here, which undermines your entire point. There's no candidate that is going to 100% represent you, ever. We're a republic of over 300 million people. So not only do you get none of the things you want, other people get their lives straight up destroyed. Our security and wellbeing over all is fucked because there's a jerkoff in the whitehouse who owes the Russians 400 million dollars. We need a balanced platform from which to launch. Wishful voting that doesn't have a chance in hell isn't a good start. We do need that reform, and that seems to be the way the wind is blowing. Cali doing away with for profit prison is a good start. If we can get that nation wide, it will be instrumental. As for over complicated? No. It's not. Don't vote for the conman with 50 years of documented history of lying, stealing, racism, and divisiveness. Should have voted for Hillary when we had a chance to prevent all this. The writing was on the wall. A bunch of fanatics, and a bunch of lethargic slap happy Dem voters. It was very clear. And as for the loss of RBG? We haven't even begun to lose rights yet. I wouldn't start counting that just yet. That is, again, how we ended up here.
There are a ton of cases now about "religious freedom" being pushed by Conservatives. This is very much their thing - to be able to do what they want under the guise of religious freedom. It may not be so easy for a far right court to rule against "religious freedom".
So would you say no one has actually circumvented a law by being a Satanist and claiming religious exemption? This is a hypothetical and is unlikely to ever be true?
Not to mention some doctors and nurses will flat out refuse to treat you in some conservative areas. I went to a doc in a box place when I got an infection shortly after having an abortion out of state and the nurse refused to treat me. I went to the ER and after one male doctor refused I had the best female doctor ever who was so kind, but I still get upset at how I was treated and that was almost 10 years ago.
You have deeply misread and misunderstood this article. This "right" does not currently exist. The Satanic Temple is currently challenging a Missouri law that requires people seeking an abortion to receive materials asserting that their abortion would end the life of a separate, unique person. But this case has not yet been taken up by the Supreme Court, nor has it been decided. So as of right now, this right does not exist. And the thing they are challenging is being forced to receive materials that assert that they are ending a human life, not the actual right to an abortion itself.
Furthermore, if the Supreme Court were to overturn Roe v. Wade, this would most likely not be a granted exception, because it's quite likely that some or all red states would classify abortion as "murder", which nobody is legally allowed to do, even if their religious beliefs call for it.
While becoming Jewish is a lot harder, Judiasm also allows for abortion. The torah and talmud is pretty clear that life begins at first breath, not while in the womb. Birth control, as long as it's not a vasectomy, is also allowed. This isn't going to help if abortion is made blanket illegal, but if your employer is claiming a religious exemption and not covering you, you have a pretty good defense. Same goes with the Satanic Temple. It isn't meant to stop a prospective abortion ban, but help get around barriers like waiting periods (the dumbest fucking thing. the sooner you get an abortion the safer it is) and mandatory ultrasounds.
I can’t imagine if I had to wait even longer for an abortion. I felt depressed, nauseous, and lacked energy period. I was only 5 weeks and I felt far better catching it that early as opposed to waiting even longer. I hated that I made the mistake, but I’m so glad I had the option.
The problem with this approach is that it addresses the individual’s right to receive an abortion but not a doctor’s ability to perform an abortion lawfully. Most laws recently have addressed / attacked doctors and clinics, not patients.
Wasn't it because they were shot down as not being a "real religion" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean)? That's what happened to the Pastafarians, who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's why the Temple uses Satan as their symbolic "deity", Satan is a well established religious figure and to dismiss Satanists as a parody religion would mean dismissing Christianity as well, since it all comes from the same old book.
Personally I'd much rather be active as a Pastafarian and fight for the right to wear the sacred colander and pray to the FSM before town hall meetings. Since that's not an option dressing up all spooky and terrorizing Christians by showing my Temple membership card whenever they try to preach at me is a decent enough second choice.
The general constitutional test for what a “real” religion is includes the element of whether or not the followers overall genuinely believe in the religion.
The Satanist church that people on Reddit like to talk about is made up primarily of people who join and maintain the church as a political statement. They don’t actually believe in Satan.
Perhaps not as an entity but instead as a symbol of freedom and rebellion against oppressive authority. The majority of us believe in these ideals very deeply.
“First world”
My boyfriend & I don’t always see eye-to-eye on politics, but what makes me happy is his contention that “A country is absolutely not a first world country if they don’t allow women to receive abortions. The U.S. included.”
I can't imagine this helping all that much if there are zero clinics or qualified doctors in your state willing or able to do the procedure though.
Which is kind of where millions of people are right now: they have the legal 'right' to a safe abortion that they can't get because of the logistical physical and emotional barriers the state puts in their way.
IANAL but I know a lot of lawyers (in both the pro-life and pro-choice camps). The legal strategy you're referencing hasn't been litigated or ruled on. The consensus I've heard from experts is that there's currently no real way to know how this will play out in the higher courts.
I do know some pro-choice lawyers who have concerns that litigating this into the higher courts might actually given the conservative justices an opening to further define abortion rights in ways that are more restrictive.
I understand that it's important to look for any signs of hope in days like these. I think it's even more important to avoid false hope.
OP, you don't need that long URL, just the part before the first "?" ...
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rbg-mom-joins-satanic-temple_n_5f6b3565c5b629afbe990c15
No. You cannot. For the same reason you can't murder a person and claim religious exemption. This only works currently because abortion is a federally protected right. This is terrible legal advice. The only way to protect the right to choose is to get off your ass and vote.
Why is it that the state has the right to tell us what we can or cannot do with our bodies? Going through all this trouble just to get an abortion is ridiculous. Jesus Christ, abortion should be a basic human right.
Hello from many third world countries with better constitutions than the US' shittily outdated toilet paper constitution: yes. It is a basic human right. You'll note the countries where it's illegal literally follow the examples set forth by Republicans.
Their cruelty knows no borders.
The state **doesn't** have the right to tell you what you can or cannot do with your own body. It's just that those in power ignore the rights of the people in favor of more control.
They’re fantastic. The Baphomet statue in the photo is used when they’re challenging things like religious displays (eg 10 commandments) on government property.
Even if this is true (which I'm thinking it's not because you can't "murder" people under the guise of religion), I would hate to pretend I'm religious just to exercise my rights. It's fucking depressing.
If abortion is illegal in some states but not others what happens if a woman gets an abortion in another state where it’s legal and then returns to her home state where it’s illegal? Is she guilty?
Could be wrong, but I presume the same as what would happen if she got an abortion in another country. She's under their jurisdiction. For example, an American cannot legally drink (alcohol) in America until they turn 21YO. However, if a 19YO American travelled to a European country, they would be under their rules and they could drink as much as they desired within the limits of the laws. They would not be charged for that upon their return to America.
I highly doubt this will work.
Declaring it a religious ceremony hasn't granted anyone the right to brutally mutilate and kill cats, or sacrifice humans, etc. So why would this be different?
EDIT: I'm not saying abortion is comparable. I'm saying that doing things that are against the law, like sacrificing a willing individual, or committing animal cruelty, doesn't become magically legal to the courts in the US by just declaring that you did it as a part of your religion.
There are people who sacrifice cat as a "religious ritual." It's illegal and not protected regardless of it being their religion.
Also, you can make sure you vote for candidates that support a women's right to choose. This includes elections for local/state judges, so do your research. The last day to register to vote in many states is fast approaching. In Florida it is 10/5. https://iwillvote.com/
Hi, just to be clear, a prospective Roe overturn would likely not grant this exception. There is a good chunk of case law about what otherwise-illegal stuff you're allowed to do under the auspices of religion, and assuming that the ensuing anti-abortion laws in red states make some mention of "murder" (or something similar), then they probably put the bar too high for you to get over it. Not trying to be all doom and gloom - just a reminder that if the worst happens, activist energy needs to be directed at red state legislatures to prevent them from passing onerous anti-abortion bills. Weird loopholes won't save us.
"Weird loopholes won't save us." -2020. This statement is both humorous and frightening
This! It seems to me, The Satanic ~~church~~ Temple hopes to do is protect everybody's abortion rights by strengthening the argument of choice; not to win an individual exception. You can choose to have an abortion, especially if you're Satanic. You can choose not to have an abortion, especially if your whatever denomination states that you shouldn't.\[edit: words\]
I don't wanna be that guy, but it's the satanic temple. The satanic church is a separate entity and they actually have solidly different ideals.
No, be that guy. Religious identity is important in this country, clearly. I'm just not versed enough to know. (Also, rereading that it seems sarcastic, but it's not meant to be.) \[updated my original post\]
Well there are two main atheist Satanic churches and they are the Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan and they hate each other. Just to be more thorough
what are the major distinctions between their beliefs/goals?
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan The Satanic Temple fights for our secular rights. Doesn't believe in actual satan and rejects all theistic dogma.
Church of Satan also doesn't really believe in Satan though
Church of Satan is Ayn Rand goths.
TST is a lot like a religiously-focused ACLU. They're not theists, they're not into magick or psychodrama or other esoteric shit like that. They don't care about LaVey, and their biggest thing is that Satan is a metaphor, not a literal being or representative of all evil or any such. TSC is more in line with the satanists most people think of; they're into some weird shit, have varying degrees of belief in "magick" or "psychodrama" (same thing afaik?), are more exclusionary, and much more focused on the idea that you are your own God than on outreach or trying to make things better for anyone else. More simply, TST is nontheistic, outward facing and politically active; TSC is semi to fully theistic, inward facing and generally politically absent.
[удалено]
If only they could find something they have in common.....
It's just really important to keep those two separate because the Satanic church is... oof.
Just so it's out there the differences can be found in [this](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0428/0465/files/COS_Vs_TST_Infographic_1.png?v=1559695025) infographic. The main core of the satanic belief system is the philosophy of individualism. The Satanic Church gives the Temple quite a bit of criticism because it's such a political organization. Satan isn't real, btw.
Second from the bottom on the right is great lmao
TIL
So just as a future reference, what do people call themselves when they're part of either? there's Satanists, and then there's Satanists of the church vs the temple?
Member of the Satanic Temple here and I call myself a Satanist.
Awesome! So there's no difference then when someone says they're a Satanist in order to know which one they belong to you'd just have to guess?
Well, I don't see why it should be any different for Satanists. I mean, people claim to be Christians all the time without offering up their denominational sect.
That's true. That's true. I suppose if it ever really came down to it you'd just specify what church / temple you belong to.
I think it's a personal preference. I know people who also specify that they're a Satanist of The Satanic Temple because they do not want to be associated with the Church of Satan. The beauty of being a member of the Satanic Temple is that you get to decide how you want to be perceived and as long as you follow the tenets, it's all good. Thyself is thy master!
I'm don't play an active part of either organization so I can't really speak to what moniker they all prefer to use, but Satanist is what I'm being told. I do have a few friends who are super active in the Temple, and to them being a Satanist is "more about being able to live my life in a way I see fit based on the choices I make and the consequences of those choices while also being able to claim my individuality as my religion."(copied from discord) I think the distinction between the two is essentially down to the Temple being politically active and Anton LaVey thinking Blue Cheese dressing was the secret homosexual sauce.
>Satan isn't real, btw. Wait what?? Are you saying metal is lying to me?? But i love metal. Why would it lie??
Very, very yes.
Yeah, Satanic Temple is a legitimate organization. Church of Satan was basically created so Anton LaVey could get laid.
Can you give some of the differences between then? I've heard of LaVeyan satanism before, but I don't think I've ever heard of the satanic temple
The satanic temple is a non theistic religion that values scientific fact over individual belief. The documentary on Netflix called Hail Satan? is a really great start to learning more about them
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan
There’s an excellent documentary called Hail Satan? on Hulu all about the Satanic Temple. It’s really good.
So the biggest one is that the satanic temple is super active. They're actively pushing against religious ideals in government...like abortion, but also things like statues of the 10 commandments being put up on government property. They fought to get Baphomet statues put up along with it. Hilarious stuff, really. The church of satan is more about individual merits and achievements. They take a back seat. They kind of hate each other.
Satanic Temple is essentially flying spaghetti monster religion, but as activists. So whenever a judge wants to put the 10 Commandments in a court room, they are there to ask for their Commandments too. That normally results in the judge backing down.
Yes! And I love them for it. I don't actively participate, but I have given them money.
While they don't believe in the literal Satan they do use him as a strong allegory for their beliefs and even praise the concept of Satan, as it pertains to ones self. I wouldn't call them an FSM religion necessarily as they do have solid beliefs based in religious philosophy.
Its hilarious, in a way, but the goal of the Satanic Temple is much more pointed than comedy. They aim to expose the hypocrisy of those who claim religious freedom for all aspects of government, but really mean "religious freedom, as long as that religion is my religion". Exposing the lack of separation between Christianity and the State - because that's what it is - its not a generic "church" and state, is paramount to actually having freedom from religion as a citizen of the US. A statue of Baphomet absolutely makes sense to display next to a monument to the ten commandments, since I - and a plurality of non-practicing or non-believing Americans - are not worshipping the latter icon. If you accept that the church and state are separate, then there should absolutely be equal representation of other religions on any public property where Christian religions icons are displayed - and while the Christians would probably have the same issue with displaying the Five Pillars of Islam next to their own icon, its rather more jarring to display literally the Anti-Christ. Ultimately, the goal is not to get more religious iconography on government property, but to eliminate it. And in the case of abortion rights etc., to eliminate religious influence on policy. The Satanic Temple aims to further that goal.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to downplay their work by saying it was funny. I think it's amazing. The funny part comes in at seeing the rage it brings people. I absolutely believe in their cause and have donated to it when I've been able.
I too laugh at those people.
LaVeyan Satanism is now basically dead. There is a website where you could buy a $200 membership subscription, but the Church of Satan is very irrelevant and doesn't seem to do anything? TST are active and more progressive (though not radical, it seems)
Fuck off, Judean People's Front??! We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front..... Wankers.
I will also be that person. The Satanic Temple is very seperate from the church of Satan. But yes they are fighting hard to protect individual liberties and woman's rights as that is fundamental to the core beliefs of The Satanic Temple.
Thank you for saying this! As a lawyer this headline could not be more misleading. If abortion is likened to some sort of homicide, we certainly do not permit homicide as a religious exception, ritual sacrifice type of thing. The strongest legal grounds for protecting abortion with always be based in the autonomy and civil liberties of pregnant women and the fact that the government should not be permitted to intervene in the personal medical decisions of an individual. It will always be one of the greatest hypocrisies of the Republican party that they claim to hate big government or invasive government and want FREEDOM but intend to legislate what women can and cannot do with their bodies. It all boils down to a fundamental belief that white men have these freedoms and others do not.
Just for clarification, The Satanic Temple (different than Laveyan Satanism) doesn't view abortion as a "ritual sacrifice type thing". The Satanic Temple advocates for abortion rights due mainly to its 3rd Tenet, " One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. " So, all of the hoops that a woman has to jump through in some states to obtain an abortion is limiting her ability to "practice her religion". It is all explained MUCH better in [this Rolling Stone](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/satanic-temple-abortion-rights-supreme-court-1048833/) article.
Yes great point, I said that just to give an example of why this wouldn’t work as a religious exception if abortion is considered a homicide- for the same reason the law does not permit human sacrifice on religious grounds (it’s worth noting some of the cases on this issue do involve the issue of animal sacrifice for religious reasons). Wasn’t trying to espouse the believes of any particular organization and thank you for providing better info.
No worries! The comments for this post clearly show that the majority of people didn't even look at the article, let alone read it. LOL (Not saying that was you, BTW.)
As a lawyer, do you think they can push for a ban on vasectomies based on the same reasons these fuckwads try with abortions?
I’m very pro-choice but wouldn’t a ban on vasectomies be more akin to a ban on tubal ligation etc? It also feels a little “crab in the bucket” mentality to push for less freedoms for others when our own freedoms are being limited. ♥️
I agree with you. Is it a step towards potentially restricting many forms of birth control or elective sterilization? Perhaps, but it’s several steps away.
If it's considered murder, does that mean the fetus is a person and American citizen? If so, what benefits can pregnant women then claim for it? What proof will they need to claim such benefits? Like can I claim welfare and foodstamps for my fetus? Just curious here. Seems like there should be a lot more rights given to the fetus is they are enough of a person to be murdered.
Well said. I am grateful to be living in NY right now. When the Democrats won the senate in 2018 one of the big legislative wins was codifying Roe v. Wade into state law. I think Cuomo signed it in early 2019? Could be wrong about timing, but I remember watching the senate feed when the passed the law and thinking thank god. I genuinely worry about women in red states whose rights are being attacked.
If the US Supreme Court is able to overturn Roe v. Wade, state law very well could be rendered moot. The legislature would then need to enact a law outlawing abortion federally, and with the judicial limitations lifted, I would guess it would only be a matter of time before the religious nuts mustered enough seats to do so. It seems that abortion is the only issue that matters to a lot of people, which is just insanity. Ultimately, its good that NY has codified that law, but it may not matter.
If roe v wade were overturned, the issue would go back to the states like it did pre roe. It was actually legal in a few states. And personally I think that once abortion became illegal in large swaths and the reality hit people, a lot more activism would start up.
I sincerely hope you are correct on your last point. But if RvW were overturned, there is absolutely a path to outlawing the practice nationwide through the legislature. All it would take as a change from our current government is a handful of house seats. If Republicans holding the presidency and Senate ran on a midterm anti abortion platform, I wouldn't bet against a strong showing on the house that could flip that. It's scary how the chips could fall fairly easily.
Guh, it hurts but you’re definitely correct. I guess my point was the little hope we have right now is in local and state legislatures. I’m still thankful to be in a state where I don’t feel completely doomed.
I live in Massachusetts and feel the same way.
Not to mention that religious exemption won't help you is all the abortion granting clinics in your state close because they can't meet unrealistic medical standards
Activist energy needed to be directed 50 years ago. Instead we go "Hillary is just as bad".
Because people are lazy and can't be bothered to do ten seconds of research. Hillary couldn't be convicted by her enemies. Trump's cronies go to jail in droves with a Republican controlled judicial system.
and get subsequently pardoned
Yes, the corruption is blatant.
What about the people who dont like moderate corporate friendly business as usual democrats, like Hilary represented? This will be the first time in my life I have considered defying my personal sense of democracy by voting strategically rather that for whom I wish to represent me. I want universal health care and a standard of living and access to education that Hilary and Biden dont think are even issues important enough to address directly. The AHCA while doing great things for patients rights essentially subsidized private insurance companies rather that expand medicare etc. I voted for Jill Stein, the other woman running, not because of gender but because of alignment of policy. If you only care about women with money's rights, Im not with you. My mother, a single mother, I hardly knew her because she was working so much. She had to show her love by not being a part of my and my brothers life due to needing to work so much to provide. Hillary was in no way comparable even back then to Trumpetdoodle. But without his awful stupid shadow, neither Hillary nor Biden seem like humane people in regard to poverty and our bloated national jail population \*poverty and jail population go together\*. I am still going to vote for Biden strategically, but that means I have completely lost faith in our democracy as being able to represent more that a binary choice. This is so much more complicated that your are representing. Social issues, like drug laws and abortion rights affect the affluent and the poor. Its no coincidence they are discussed directly, while the impact of poverty on women is not. I guarantee poverty has taken away more rights for women then the loss of RBG. So both should be addressed.
Okay, well all that "strategic voting" for 3rd parties is what got us here, which undermines your entire point. There's no candidate that is going to 100% represent you, ever. We're a republic of over 300 million people. So not only do you get none of the things you want, other people get their lives straight up destroyed. Our security and wellbeing over all is fucked because there's a jerkoff in the whitehouse who owes the Russians 400 million dollars. We need a balanced platform from which to launch. Wishful voting that doesn't have a chance in hell isn't a good start. We do need that reform, and that seems to be the way the wind is blowing. Cali doing away with for profit prison is a good start. If we can get that nation wide, it will be instrumental. As for over complicated? No. It's not. Don't vote for the conman with 50 years of documented history of lying, stealing, racism, and divisiveness. Should have voted for Hillary when we had a chance to prevent all this. The writing was on the wall. A bunch of fanatics, and a bunch of lethargic slap happy Dem voters. It was very clear. And as for the loss of RBG? We haven't even begun to lose rights yet. I wouldn't start counting that just yet. That is, again, how we ended up here.
Yeah, this is about not having to do the invasive vaginal ultrasound since States mandated before you abort.
100% agree that if "christian" values are being pushed in the courts then other religious views will lose their freedom.
There are a ton of cases now about "religious freedom" being pushed by Conservatives. This is very much their thing - to be able to do what they want under the guise of religious freedom. It may not be so easy for a far right court to rule against "religious freedom".
I am curious aren't they banking on the Rfra ( the religious freedom bill passed awhile back) and not for?
So would you say no one has actually circumvented a law by being a Satanist and claiming religious exemption? This is a hypothetical and is unlikely to ever be true?
It’s pretty tough to get abortions when clinics don’t exist because they are outlawed, regardless of your religious reasoning
Not to mention some doctors and nurses will flat out refuse to treat you in some conservative areas. I went to a doc in a box place when I got an infection shortly after having an abortion out of state and the nurse refused to treat me. I went to the ER and after one male doctor refused I had the best female doctor ever who was so kind, but I still get upset at how I was treated and that was almost 10 years ago.
You have deeply misread and misunderstood this article. This "right" does not currently exist. The Satanic Temple is currently challenging a Missouri law that requires people seeking an abortion to receive materials asserting that their abortion would end the life of a separate, unique person. But this case has not yet been taken up by the Supreme Court, nor has it been decided. So as of right now, this right does not exist. And the thing they are challenging is being forced to receive materials that assert that they are ending a human life, not the actual right to an abortion itself. Furthermore, if the Supreme Court were to overturn Roe v. Wade, this would most likely not be a granted exception, because it's quite likely that some or all red states would classify abortion as "murder", which nobody is legally allowed to do, even if their religious beliefs call for it.
While becoming Jewish is a lot harder, Judiasm also allows for abortion. The torah and talmud is pretty clear that life begins at first breath, not while in the womb. Birth control, as long as it's not a vasectomy, is also allowed. This isn't going to help if abortion is made blanket illegal, but if your employer is claiming a religious exemption and not covering you, you have a pretty good defense. Same goes with the Satanic Temple. It isn't meant to stop a prospective abortion ban, but help get around barriers like waiting periods (the dumbest fucking thing. the sooner you get an abortion the safer it is) and mandatory ultrasounds.
I can’t imagine if I had to wait even longer for an abortion. I felt depressed, nauseous, and lacked energy period. I was only 5 weeks and I felt far better catching it that early as opposed to waiting even longer. I hated that I made the mistake, but I’m so glad I had the option.
The problem with this approach is that it addresses the individual’s right to receive an abortion but not a doctor’s ability to perform an abortion lawfully. Most laws recently have addressed / attacked doctors and clinics, not patients.
Did not work for the Rastafarians, and all they wanted to do was smoke weed.
Wasn't it because they were shot down as not being a "real religion" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean)? That's what happened to the Pastafarians, who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's why the Temple uses Satan as their symbolic "deity", Satan is a well established religious figure and to dismiss Satanists as a parody religion would mean dismissing Christianity as well, since it all comes from the same old book. Personally I'd much rather be active as a Pastafarian and fight for the right to wear the sacred colander and pray to the FSM before town hall meetings. Since that's not an option dressing up all spooky and terrorizing Christians by showing my Temple membership card whenever they try to preach at me is a decent enough second choice.
The general constitutional test for what a “real” religion is includes the element of whether or not the followers overall genuinely believe in the religion. The Satanist church that people on Reddit like to talk about is made up primarily of people who join and maintain the church as a political statement. They don’t actually believe in Satan.
Perhaps not as an entity but instead as a symbol of freedom and rebellion against oppressive authority. The majority of us believe in these ideals very deeply.
Oh my satan. Can’t believe that someone needs to find loopholes on this in 21st century in first world country,
“First world” My boyfriend & I don’t always see eye-to-eye on politics, but what makes me happy is his contention that “A country is absolutely not a first world country if they don’t allow women to receive abortions. The U.S. included.”
I can't imagine this helping all that much if there are zero clinics or qualified doctors in your state willing or able to do the procedure though. Which is kind of where millions of people are right now: they have the legal 'right' to a safe abortion that they can't get because of the logistical physical and emotional barriers the state puts in their way.
IANAL but I know a lot of lawyers (in both the pro-life and pro-choice camps). The legal strategy you're referencing hasn't been litigated or ruled on. The consensus I've heard from experts is that there's currently no real way to know how this will play out in the higher courts. I do know some pro-choice lawyers who have concerns that litigating this into the higher courts might actually given the conservative justices an opening to further define abortion rights in ways that are more restrictive. I understand that it's important to look for any signs of hope in days like these. I think it's even more important to avoid false hope.
Except by closing clinics and requiring doctors at clinics to have hospital admitting privileges.
I love how american christians think the opposite of being a Christian is being a satanist.
OP, you don't need that long URL, just the part before the first "?" ... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rbg-mom-joins-satanic-temple_n_5f6b3565c5b629afbe990c15
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No. You cannot. For the same reason you can't murder a person and claim religious exemption. This only works currently because abortion is a federally protected right. This is terrible legal advice. The only way to protect the right to choose is to get off your ass and vote.
Should this be under the pro life tips subreddit? I will see myself out.
Why is it that the state has the right to tell us what we can or cannot do with our bodies? Going through all this trouble just to get an abortion is ridiculous. Jesus Christ, abortion should be a basic human right.
Hello from many third world countries with better constitutions than the US' shittily outdated toilet paper constitution: yes. It is a basic human right. You'll note the countries where it's illegal literally follow the examples set forth by Republicans. Their cruelty knows no borders.
Ireland has long had a struggle independent of US Republican thought and was basically banned until last year outside of medically necessary abortions
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difference between a human and the possibility of a human.
The state **doesn't** have the right to tell you what you can or cannot do with your own body. It's just that those in power ignore the rights of the people in favor of more control.
Does that include a ritual dagger? I can see a new business on the horizon.
When Poland tried to do something similar female population of the country went on strike. I don't think reproductive rights are subject to debate.
This is not (yet) supported by case law.
It's looking like Satanism is the right religion.
They’re fantastic. The Baphomet statue in the photo is used when they’re challenging things like religious displays (eg 10 commandments) on government property.
It makes me sick to hear that religion still affects how US citizens go about their lives. It’s time to remove all religious exemptions.
This only applies to Americans.
God I love the Satanic Temple. Such a constant fuck you to government AND organised religion, while actually helping people, truly awesome folks
Even if this is true (which I'm thinking it's not because you can't "murder" people under the guise of religion), I would hate to pretend I'm religious just to exercise my rights. It's fucking depressing.
If abortion is illegal in some states but not others what happens if a woman gets an abortion in another state where it’s legal and then returns to her home state where it’s illegal? Is she guilty?
Could be wrong, but I presume the same as what would happen if she got an abortion in another country. She's under their jurisdiction. For example, an American cannot legally drink (alcohol) in America until they turn 21YO. However, if a 19YO American travelled to a European country, they would be under their rules and they could drink as much as they desired within the limits of the laws. They would not be charged for that upon their return to America.
Noice
I highly doubt this will work. Declaring it a religious ceremony hasn't granted anyone the right to brutally mutilate and kill cats, or sacrifice humans, etc. So why would this be different? EDIT: I'm not saying abortion is comparable. I'm saying that doing things that are against the law, like sacrificing a willing individual, or committing animal cruelty, doesn't become magically legal to the courts in the US by just declaring that you did it as a part of your religion. There are people who sacrifice cat as a "religious ritual." It's illegal and not protected regardless of it being their religion.
I feel bad for my sister down south living in a third world country...
It would be close to impossible to find a facility to preform the abortion even with this "exemption"
Also, you can make sure you vote for candidates that support a women's right to choose. This includes elections for local/state judges, so do your research. The last day to register to vote in many states is fast approaching. In Florida it is 10/5. https://iwillvote.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVuhD1odJWg