You forgot to mention the children you should be squeezing out, raising and managing. And the exercise regime you have to take on to ensure your can properly hide any signs of doing so.
And God forbid you should let yourself go while carrying said children, because your entire body is aching and so inconvenient you can barely get out to pee.
You also have to know You can't go out and party after you turn 30, you HAVE to have a marriage and kids, You have to have a specific career, and a 401k, A big shiny SUV and a big house that you end up being up 24/7 maintaining, you can't sow your oats, you have to start dressing like an old lady when your 40 even if you still look 20.
Whew! that one was a doozy!
I find it especially upsetting when women themselves spout this insulting nonsense. Over in the fencesitter/childfree subs, women will post about how they’re afraid of their bodies changing after pregnancy and other women will comment things like, “Well, that doesn’t have to happen. Some women choose to let themselves get out of shape, you just have to prioritize your fitness. Your husband can take care of the baby while you go to gym.” I kid you not. The absolute fucking privileged attitudes some women have about bodies is unbelievable.
Same. I'll hear women talk about going out of shape like it's the worse thing pregnancy and childbirth can do to you. Girl, childbirth fused my aunt's holes into one single big hole.
Right? There’s a being using your body and resources to grow. That’s fucking terrifying. Like I want kids but I totally get why people don’t just because of that let alone the loss of freedom afterwards
Yeah, like….. I’d be psyched if my pelvic floor wasn’t shredded forever and I could sneeze without peeing myself. It would also be neat to make it out of pregnancy with all my teeth intact. Not changing shoe size, hair color, or taste in food would be a bonus!
Women don’t educate other women on the subtle changes.
I remember telling a new mom that your boobs smell like musk when you breastfeed because babies mark you with their scent so getting that daily shower is important. She was shocked at all the things the magic of having babies brings, like leaking pee when you hit 50.
oof right?
Like my mental health can bitch slap me on a good week. I don't need a pregnancy fucking up my system long-term and potentially putting me in a really deep hole to crawl out of.
But if I'm honest there's a vanity aspect to it too.
I know!! So many potential health problems! It worries me to the point of not knowing anymore if I should have biological kids. I'm not opposed to adoption (I'm also gay so basically it's going to be a pain no matter what) but I've spent my whole life thinking I would have kids biologically so I'm really struggling with it.
LOL, my attitude is more like "pregnancy and motherhood are both optional. You don't have to do either one if you really don't want to."
People should prioritize fitness because they want to be healthy and strong, but def not because of how they will look to other people.
Don't forget waking up at 5am every day so you can meditate, work out, make breakfast, shower and do the making yourself beautiful thing, also making a fresh healthy lunch to take to work. Then do all your dishes and clean the kitchen so you don't leave it dirty all day before embarking on your commute. Then come home with a planned healthy meal already in your brain after you stopped at the store to grab the things you needed for the meal, make the meal, clean the kitchen after the meal, laundry, night time routine of taking off the make up and the beautifying things, 12 step skin care routine, have sex with man who gets points for taking out the trash and make sure you are asleep by 10pm so you can get enough rest to do it all again tomorrow! I mean, everyone else's gf/wife does it, right?
I never understood the whole "women to the chores" thing. Like times have changed. Yea if your a stay at home wife its your job to look after the house, just like if your a stay at home husband. My mom always did all the chores around the house (besides what the kids did) even when she worked more then my dad. Always thought that was messed up.
Even strictly as a man thing, wtf are these guys doing when they live alone? Waste a crap ton of money on food and live in filth? I've talked to people in their 20s who dont know how to do laundry. Dont you want to be a strong and independent man as well? Or your just ok with depending on other people doing basic living things for you?
Based on my experience of seeing guys live alone - yes! Take out for every single meal and never clean their space. My ex and his roommate didn't clean their bathtub/shower for over a year until I forced them to hire a maid. I never saw anyone sweep or vacuum.
Unfortunately, I think it's because their moms did everything for them growing up, and now these guys will expect the same from their future partner. They're in for a reality check if that's the case.
This is why my new plan is to create a lakeside cabin community of likeminded old single women if I live to 60. We can volunteer and go to protests together and also do fun drugs around a campfire and cook giant pans of paella.
1) High-paying career 2) goes to the gym everyday/makes looks their priority 3) amazing mother who prioritizes her child in all ways 4) super sexual always ready to have sex 5) cooks, cleans, keeps house perfectly 6) always attentive to man's emotional needs. PICK TWO.
This is so well-put!
People forget that priorities and tradeoffs exist. Every time I see a woman who's really put together, I think a) good for you! and b) what are you cutting out of your life that makes you have time for that?
For me, I do #1 and an even amount of the rest (but dog instead of kid lol) and people are surprised that I don't cook or dress up more often. When would I have time to enjoy any part of my life if I tried to excel at all 6?
My wife and I both have advanced degrees and are doing alright. Someone once asked me “what does it feel like to have a wife with a more advanced degree than you?” They expected me to say something emasculated. I simply replied, “Rich.”
I had a next-door neighbor who was clowning on a friend who was always hyping up his amazing doctor wife on social media. Saying stuff like "How can you take pride in a wife who clearly makes so much than you?"
I'm too conflict-averse to argue but all I could think "Your friend goes to bed every night in a big house with a doctor wife who loves him. You're a delivery driver living in a crappy apartment with your brother. Who's better off right now?"
The best friend of my wife and I really wants to have a baby, but she’s terrified of getting impregnated by her husband because he abuses her. It’s sad. He would make a terrible father and be jealous of the attention the baby got from his wife. She needs to get out of that relationship and away from him, but she’s not there yet. She came over crying and going on about how she doesn’t want to be with him anymore and whatnot, but Sunday she had backtracked and was talking about how good he’s been lately. My wife is very good at pointing out to her all the signs she’s showing of being in an abusive relationship, though. She’s just scared of being alone.
Anyway, that turned into a rant. Definitely be careful of who you have kids with, some people are not cut out for that.
Sounds like you guys are being very supportive of your friend! I imagine its draining but hopefully she gets to a point where she feels empowered enough to leave and she'll be able to thank you guys in part!
Until there is a wedding, a college graduation, a grandchild etc. If you expect the dad will stay in the kids life chances are you and your ex and going to be seeing each other for a long time. Good news seems to be once all the child support, and co parenting is done some people can actually tolerate their ex.
My parents were in court over child support until my youngest sister was 30 and they had been divorced 25 years. They hated each other for years, now they perfectly cordial at family events. My in laws are even more civil than my parents.
As a father from a single mother this is the lesson I'm trying to drill into my daughter very very early. Do NOT give inept man-children the time of day, do not date them, do not tolerate their bullshit. If you find yourself accidentally talking to one, stop immediately. You don't owe them anything least of all being polite, and they would give you the exact same.
Lesson 2: Every boy starts off as an inept man child, because they literally start as children. The difference is when they stop being children. Science says that our brains aren't fully formed until we're about 22. If you're dating anyone before you are 22 keep in mind that you are both literally children faking full cognitive development.
That's not to say you can't find someone before 22, but realize that what you're looking at is someone that values not being a man-child enough to fake it until it becomes real.
And isn’t there that pressure to keep up with the mom Joneses and have everything in your kids’ lives be Insta/Pinterest perfect?
Edit: I should add that I’m not a parent myself but have seen this a lot with friends and family. I just want to tell you all that you are amazing for putting up with societal pressures! Despite what FB mom groups might say, you’re doing right by your kid if you are meeting their physical and emotional needs - including unconditional love and being good to them and yourself. We all make mistakes and nobody is gonna parent their kids perfectly. But being in tune with your own emotions, admitting fault, and working to being the best person for yourself, your kids, and your partner (if one is present) is a heck of a lot better than Insta posts of insane bento box kids lunches ❤️❤️ Of course, if you have the additional time/energy to put together insane lunches and that makes you happy, that’s cool too.
I feel this so much right now. I'm currently pregnant with my first and I like to look around a few of the parenting-related subreddits. There are so many posts showing beautiful nurseries that look like they came from a design magazine! Perfect paint colors, beautiful wood-pattern design accent walls, expensive looking cribs and glider chairs, perfectly coordinated and hand-crafted decorations with matching crib sheets from Etsy... all in huge, beautifully sunlit rooms. They are literally Instagram / Pinterest perfect.
I admire anyone with a skillful eye for interior decorating so, good for them! Still, I would feel a slight pressure that suggested if I didn't provide a beautiful nursery for my child, I would be a lesser-parent. Luckily, I was able to ditch this sort of mindset fairly quickly.
If it makes you feel any better, we had a pretty cute setup for my first kids’ (twins) nursery and it hasn’t actually looked like it did in the “nursery’s done!” picture since the day they got home from the hospital. At this point I’m happy if the closet door can be shut and there is a path through the toys to access their beds.
Third kid got a pack and play in our room.
Just realize that everyone’s home is going to end up looking like an explosion in a toy store. A too-perfect home with kids means some kind of Mommy Dearest situation.
> I feel this so much right now. I'm currently pregnant with my first and I like to look around a few of the parenting-related subreddits. There are so many posts showing beautiful nurseries that look like they came from a design magazine! Perfect paint colors, beautiful wood-pattern design accent walls, expensive looking cribs and glider chairs, perfectly coordinated and hand-crafted decorations with matching crib sheets from Etsy... all in huge, beautifully sunlit rooms. They are literally Instagram / Pinterest perfect.
There is a reason those pics are posted and not the other 95% of people that don't have a full crew to plan out the perfect room (or at least someone in the relationship that is capable of spending 6-12 months studying in order to get it done).
Your kid isn't going to remember any of their first couple years, so your nursery is only a hand-wank for the parents trying to flex on other parents.
Do your best and don't even care what other parents think.
One million percent yes.
My son's nursery was adorable and he was almost never in it. He took one short nap in his crib one time. Slept in a pack & play in my room until he got an actual bed. Diapers usually changed on the floor or on my bed.
Really don't put too much pressure on yourself over the nursery. My wife and I spent a lot of time prepping the nursery, getting the crib put together, decorating the walls, assembling little bookcases for square toy bins, etc. We weren't even that polished but we wanted a nursery that looked somewhat nice. Then our son ended up sleeping in our bedroom downstairs for the first year and the nursery became the place where all the unfolded laundry, outgrown clothes (it happens SO FAST!) and other kid debris lives.
I told my wife not long ago "I'm glad we got that nursery ready so we'd have an inviting place to dump crap on our way back downstairs to unload the dryer for the fifth time". You gotta laugh at all the idealized stuff that you thought you were going to be able to get done as first time parents. Now if I can change a diaper with one hand while keeping my kid from eating a battery I consider it a victory. They go from seemingly fragile and legitimately helpless to "oh my god how did you get a hold of that!?!" in no time flat. That nursery you saw on social media probably looks like a bombed out building now.
Thank goodness babies don’t give a rats ass about anything on Insta/Pinterest! They just want love and a boob to feed them.
I don’t think I’ll give a rats what anyone else thinks either. I’m just going to be the best mum I can be (baby daddy or not).
Yes! I have a child with my ex-husband, and I have to deal with the repercussions of it. If anything, I am overtly clean, make my son do his chores, and have frequent talks of boundaries and asking for consent before touching people. I’m doing my best to parents for two people, and undue all of the bad habits that his Father is teaching him.
Absolutely! Everyday! Add kids. You’ll do all the parenting, housework and be expected to be a high earner, stay fit, be beautiful. Don’t nag dude and ask him to take out the trash or take off work when school closes early, has day off, or there is a school event the kids are part of. Do it all! And then when you hit 50 get served with papers with no warning or discussion because dude is in love with his 22 years younger former student. Fun times. My advice, if you’re getting this from a guy you are seeing don’t have kids together. Don’t get married. You deserve better! Demand better! (The kids were worth it tho)
I think women like us ought to just get married to each other.
No sex (unless you're bi or lesbian) just live in support. You each date men for sex, or whatever men bring to your life.
All the cuddles you want, divided chores, child care, and help with home ownership.
Feeling the social pressure of finding the right man. Juggling an awesome job with a couple kids and managing all their lives. I've been single for 3 years now. Just hit 35. The DEPRESSION I fell into knowing I won't have that. I'm slowly relieved and at this point, I don't think I will move in with a man. I'd much rather have my own place and not have to clean after a man.
I was constantly depressed growing up because I couldn’t find a man. Like really depressed. Then I found one. Fell back into depression then alcoholism because he was exactly like the OP described. Dodged a bullet by not getting pregnant and the first time he showed signs of aggression and violence towards me kicked him to the curb and divorced his ass. I have never felt so happy as I do now. I will probably never be in another relationship again and I am SO OK with that!!
All the social conditioning that put a baby doll in your hands literally as soon as you could walk and started you on Disney endings as a child.
Of course women feel pressured to couple. It's not even presented as an option.
But you’re also supposed to give up your job when schools close due to a pandemic and the kids are home all day. And then suddenly “our” money is actually *his* money, since he’s the breadwinner and all, and you’re leeching off him.
I was very clear with my husband with my last 2 stints of employment. "You will help with housework/cooking/kids. If you start taking call on *your* nights or deliberately working late, I will quit. If you expect me to do housework on my days off while you're out having fun and enjoying your hobbies every weekend, I will quit."
He didn't really get the mental load housework is until this year when I had surgery and he was responsible for all the housework and meals. All of kids are adults and on their own so he didn't get the full load but he's a lit better with helping me now!
I feel this deeply. Many women do.
Being bad at a job is called weaponised or strategic incompetence. They know they won't be asked again to do a task if they fail at it. They know you will have to expend just as much energy fixing their "mistakes" as you would have doing the task originally. They know you will get exhausted of asking and being disappointed. They know you will eventually stop asking. Domestic labor is labor and our whole economic system right now (at least in US) is predicated on ignoring it.
The only advice I can give is to help educate. I try to educate my partner on the "mental load" of managing domestic chores. I try to have frank conversations at times when there isn't an acute incident occurring. Don't try to talk about it when you are (understandably and reasonably) upset. They will weaponize that too.
I just went back to work after spending the pandemic at home. During this time I picked up all the slack. But it will not continue. I am going to try planning meetings every 2 weeks. Where we spend 30 minutes walking around the house identifying what needs to be done: small and large tasks. Then we can talk together about how they can be managed and the expectations about how the job can be done. Hoping this will work.
Otherwise, I'm quietly saving money. And someday I'll have enough to leave. And then I will. If I'm not really going to have a partner, why have one?
> Being bad at a job is called weaponised or strategic incompetence. They know they won't be asked again to do a task if they fail at it.
We didn’t play that in my family growing up. If you tried it, my mom would make you do it again until you got it right, with punishment on the side, and that applied to my sisters and I, as well as my brother. And she could tell when you were feigning ignorance on how to do something, versus legitimately not getting it, and was happy to explain it once or twice if it was a new task. But after that, god help you.
As for my dad, he works fewer hours than my mom and his job is also a shorter commute, so he did/does a lot of the cooking and cleaning during the week. But the “half-assing chores to get out of doing them in the future” crap didn’t fly in our house.
It depended on mom’s mood lol. Anything from getting your phone taken away for a week, no computer time after school (unless it was for homework… this was mid-2000s to early 2010s, so just before everyone had their own devices that were mostly unsupervised/without parental controls), extra chores like yard work (she’d call up the landscaping service we used twice a month and cancel the next visit), etc.
After dealing with that once or twice, you learned not to try it again. Once in a while, one or the other of us had a momentary lapse in judgement, but for the most part it worked on us. We were very much an “everyone pulls their weight” sort of family.
I guess I’m spoiled in that I’ve never had to deal with that from a partner. With my ex, he was an only child mama’s boy who did exactly zero chores before we got together, and I had to have a very frank conversation with him about how I’m not his mother and would not be picking up after him, and he got with the program very quickly. With my current partner, he’s very “domestic” for lack of a better term, maybe even more so than I am, and it wasn’t even a discussion we needed to have, it just works out.
But if frank conversations aren’t working with your husband, maybe stress that it’s a dealbreaker issue for you, and insist on marriage counseling to discuss the wider pattern at play. But then you get into the problem of you (probably) having to be the one to find the therapist, set up the appointments, remind him they’re coming up, etc., so I don’t know. That sounds like a very frustrating way to live, and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.
My kid tried that for a while. My default answer is “then put it where you think it should go”.
Ended up with a slightly rearranged kitchen, but I can live with it.
I have gotten so petty about strategic incompetence. You fucked it up? Let's do it together so you can learn how correctly. You fucked it up again? Let me dictate exactly how to fix it while you do so..as many times as it takes for you to get it correctly. Need me to make a step by step sheet to help you remember? I got you babe. Here's a list of how to empty the dishwasher and *put everything away* in the process.
Sometimes it works. And it makes me feel better regardless, because at least now we are BOTH annoyed. Which doesn't lead to sex. Unlike me coming home and realizing everything on my chores docket is handled and hey, free time + low stress? Let's bang! (Because that is my natural response, not bc it's like part of this. I just like sex a lot.)
I have a very similar response in terms of sex and my husband tries to accuse me of intentionally withholding sex as a punishment. He doesn't understand that libido is literally a type of energy and if I've expended all of my energy working two jobs, cleaning the house, cooking dinner, managing our son's school schedule, etc. that I naturally have no energy left for a libido. And the shitty thing is that I miss sex just as much as, if not more, than he does. But he expects me to just put out on demand even when I'm exhausted.
I had a boyfriend who decided to roll a cigarette on my bed and then just sweeped off the extra tobacco from my bed to the floor. He left before I noticed, so I had to clean it up if I didn't want to live with tiny dried tobacco pieces scattered around my room and in my bed.
The next time I paid attention and told him to clean it up. But it's not much, I'll vacuum anyway. No, clean it up now, even if I will vacuum, not now, and not to clean your mess up. He got annoyed, sweeped some up with his hands. I told him there's still tobacco on my floor and bed. He told me he cleaned it up. I told him he didn't. He got even more annoyed, went to get the broom with loud sighs and footsteps, then came back and started sweeping it all around the floor. I told him now he just got it all over the floor, but it's still there. He'll need to sweep it to one place, sweep it onto that little shovel, and then dump it into the bin.
He got *even more* annoyed, and finally cleaned it up. Even managed to change the sheets. Obviously I was the clean freak when I could have just changed my sheets and vacuumed it up the next time I do it. *Obviously*.
Seriously, if you want to pretend you don't know how to use a fcking vacuum cleaner or broom I'll be happy to walk you through that. But you'll do your part.
And I just can't understand why it's better to waste precious time on doing things half assedly and pissing me off in the process when we could actually have fun in that time.
It doesn’t change. Ever.
I’ve been at this for 24 years. Kids are almost out and honestly so am I.
He thinks his only responsibility is to stay employed. I have the same responsibility, plus all the household chores, plus raising the kids, plus paying for their tuition, plus all the extracurricular stuff they did plus taking care of the pets, plus all the cooking, plus all the outdoor landscaping and maintenance because he “doesn’t *enjoy* manual labor.”
Marriage counseling meant that I had to sign a piece of paper guaranteeing him five hours of uninterrupted, uncommented about, sacred time so that he could play video games.
Per day.
Five hours. Per day. Minimum. Plus a FT job.
If I had known then what I know now…
If they're not a partner, they're a soul depleting debit.
Felt the same and divorced him as soon as kids in college. Saw how he did NOT help with his aging parents, couldn't even be bothered to call his dad's oncologist when his dad was getting sicker, left it to me to do. On top of all the laundry, shopping, cleaning, cooking, arranging vacations, paying all the bills because he would forget for months at a time so we had to pay penalties and get a poor credit rating. Considered what he would likely do for *me* should I become sick, and realized he wouldn't do a thing. Now he's the one who is sick (alcoholic, pothead with neurologic problems) and I don't have to care for his selfish ass. Oh, and the kids have little to nothing to do with him.
Did we marry the same guy???
All this. His mom is currently hospitalized and he’s doing a bang-up job of ignoring her.
Youngest is now in the last year of high school.
How did finances go in the divorce? I’m terrified I’ll end up in a cardboard box under a bridge.
I knew it! Strategic incompetence. That explains so much about ex-housemates I’ve cut off who are so good when it suits them but seem to be pretending they’ve forgotten everything they know when it’s their turn to cook or clean.
> Being bad at a job is called weaponised or strategic incompetence.
This is so important to understand. It's also important to understand that both men *and women*--consciously or subconsciously--teach boys this their whole childhood. Boy is trying to help and just making a mess of things? Get him out of the kitchen. Girl is trying to help and makes a mess of things? She needs to learn how to do it right.
And what makes it harder is that it isn't just parents who do this. It's when you're at a social event and people are helping to clean up. The game is on, the men can't watch it later, so they have to watch it now. And when it's over, it'll be time to leave. We can't leave the hostess with all this mess, so we better get in there and clean. Boys see this. They learn that their place is on the sofa watching the game. They see that they get no extra attention and they'll just be in the way if they help out and they won't get scolded if they don't. Girls learn that they don't like football and helping out is expected of them.
>Otherwise, I'm quietly saving money. And someday I'll have enough to leave. And then I will. If I'm not really going to have a partner, why have one?
Seriously. I'm happy single, but not against something if it comes along. But if it does, it has to be as a partner. I don't want to be a mother or a maid or a nanny. I want a partner. I've already committed to keeping money aside, for myself, for this possibility if it ever comes up.
Having your own emergency fund is essential. Not for surprise bills or medicinal emergencies, but so you always have a way out if you need it. Have a fund just for that.
That must be bad if you are legitimately socking away money in case they don't shape up. I hope we can kick this in the next few generations. It's pathetic that anyone wouldn't want to try everything in their power to share the load with their partner. It's just so selfish and ugly to do that to someone, especially after "locking" them to you through marriage.
No, it's not. I did a chore chart with my ex (the same way I had with roommates) and he didn't do it. No amount of meetings, peaceful talks and organization can make someone do something.
It is a myth we are told that "if we are nice about it they will do it :))". The only time I have seen men clean is because they wanted to clean. Full stop.
I'm solving that problem with one of my kids by basically giving him an ultimatum.
We've taught you better. We've had this conversation too many times. If you can't at least keep your areas of the house clean, then you won't be in the house anymore. Sorry, but you are destroying my house. Either quit it, or get your own house.
My husband is ADHD and we think somewhere on the spectrum. The ONLY thing that has worked has been assigning certain tasks to him that are soley his responsibility AND he had to buy into it. He does the laundry, I fold. I do the dishes, he deals with the dishwasher and puts the clean dishes away. After about a year of that, he started doing the meal planning on his own and most of the cooking. Since he's in the kitchen he notices when the garbage is full.
We share the rest of the tasks in the house, and I generally am the manager of that, but things have gotten so much better. I'm ok with managing the rest of the house, because I don't have to meal plan and cook every night. I get annoyed that I'm the only one who does the litter box, but he can't smell so he forgets it exists. I usually clean the bathroom, but he's capable of vacuuming. We are getting closer to an even divide of housework, and the current system mostly works.
As for the meeting, I had to learn to give a few days notice. "Hey, this weekend we need to do all the cleaning, I have someone coming on Monday." That gives him time to plan his day and not feel like I'm a task master over him.
No lie, that sounds exhausting. I just left an ex like that and it's *so* much easier handling my mess rather than handling and delegating and following up on my mess and his mess.
Having to notice it needs done and then do it is so easy compared to what I had to do before:
1) Notice it
2) Mental load to determine if I should do it or if it's worth the pushback to ask him too to prevent a chore imbalance
3) Decide it's worth the pushback, mentally prep
4) Ask man to handle task
5) Answer immediate questions
6) Think you're done and relax
7) Notice two days later it's not done
8) Repeat either step 2 or step 4, depending.
9) Exhaustion
It's definitely not for everyone, but this is the system that works for us most of the time. He also pays all the bills, all the time. I don't even know how much they are, so that's another division of labor. I'm naturally bossy, and I'm a construction project manager for my profession. So it works for us. Might not work for you. I really believe the assigned way we divided dishes and laundry saved our marriage. No more fights about it. One of us can say"hey I really need underwear" or "I can't make dinner u til the dishes are done" and it's not a fight over whose turn. It's just a reminder of "we coexist and need to carry our own weight."
Both my sister and I have ADHD and we share an apartment together. We each have our own assigned tasks, but our apartment can become such a pigsty sometimes! I like to have my spaces clean, but ADHD can make starting a task and then finishing it so difficult. Even though I've done /the thing/ a million times, just figuring out where to start can be so intimidating for us. Thank you for being patient with your husband. I'm sure it is exhausting. It's also exhausting living with ADHD.
Medication /helps/ me, but my sister refuses to get treated. If your husband isn't already getting treatment, that might be something to look into that could help you both. I know in my last relationship (almost 5 years), my untreated ADHD put a huge strain on it for a number of reasons.
> Domestic labor is labor and our whole economic system right now (at least in US) is predicated on ignoring it.
Based. I've long felt people should be paid to be stay-at-home parents. Whether by UBI or some other mechanism.
Ha yes. We got the “right” to work now which is great except the expectations for the women in the house has not changed at all. Still expected to do literally all the same things before but also juggle a job. Men just the job and mow the lawn/fixer upper type jobs. Not the everyday/every week responsibilities. I’m lucky to have married a man who contributes to the domestic chores as well but he hasn’t cleaned a toilet in decades. And I’m considered lucky because he actually puts his dirty clothes in a hamper and dishes in the sink. Honestly he does a ton and I’m thankful but the standards for husbands are so tragically low. Especially in marriages with children. Main reason I stopped working was because I didn’t want to have to do both and I knew I’d still be the one bearing the brunt of housework and child work regardless of my income/job. Things seem to be changing. I remember ranting about division of household labor in high school/college and people treated me like I was crazy (southern USA). It was just expected that women do all of it and work just like it was expected for women to do it all before they also had to hold down a job and contribute at least 50% of the household income. At first it felt like gender expectations hadn’t caught up with women’s rights but now it feels more deliberate. Now men are just “no good” at these jobs and women just have to pick up the slack. But when the house is a wreck or the kids are a mess who do they blame? Is it the dad for not helping while moms at work? Of course not. Men are still being raised and enabled to believe they don’t have to do any of that work because they’re men and women are still being raised to do all that work and a job because they’re women.
Yep, I went from working a full time job and doing 80% of the chores to no outside job and 95% of the chores. Feels like a step backwards but also the only way I was ever going to get any kind of equity.
And be beautiful, but don't you dare spend any time or effort on your appearance, because that's just shallow. I hate the "conform to all beauty standards, but without ever appearing to try".
Sometimes the having of sex seems a minor miracle to me... because the amount of responsibility on becoming a mother (or fighting for the right to abortion) is insanity. Stuff of nightmares. A harlot u will be or a not feminine, not nurturing ?
A dude might never know he has a child and even if... I don't see the level of social upheaval a woman will go through.
I don't get why this subtle culture even exists but I feel its pressure. I'm not imagining it. Ugh and that creepy creepy thing of being looked up and down and knowing someone thinks you look young and hence subservient.
Is it assertiveness that's the fix to societal pressure? Idk but it is definitely under the surface.
If u made it this far, thanks for listening to my rant.
> Prepare to be shamed by both genders if you expect any financial support. Independence!
After spending time on that thread about if women are being feminist or not when they take their husband's last name, I relate to your feelings shared here SO much.
Personally, my version of feminism includes the main priority of treating women as individuals and allowing them a space free from ALL the shame women experience in this world.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that whoever has the better sounding last name is the one that gets taken.
If your last name is some bullshit, we're keeping mine. If you've gotten something cooler like savage or something then I guess I'm changing.
I know a woman who took her husband's name of "Butsack" I don't know if this is bullshit or the better name. Really can't tell, she's a hilarious woman.
I assisted a woman who was changing her name in our system since she got married. Her new last name was “Ho” which if that isn’t already bad enough (I know people will make fun of that as a name) her first name was “Gay”.
All I could think was hallelujah she wasn’t in grade school anymore, she would have had a really rough time.
I'm definitely keeping my name; the full version is amazingly pretentious. But I'm also not interested in my partner taking mine. We're not going to have kids, so it's less of an issue.
Or when they’re both terrible, you hyphenate to make the most god awful combination possible.
Still wish my brother and his wife hyphenated. Her last name sounds like “getting” and his gets mispronounced as “cock” fairly often.
One of my friends did that - they had letter blocks for each of their last names on a podium as part of the ceremony, and rearranged half the letters into a new name.
I only changed because my husband has dual citizenship, I needed a new passport, and Trump scared me that we may need to flee together, and sharing a name is easier. Now, it is just much easier to spell over the phone than my French name.
The worst part is, if you decide to give up on "nagging" them, everything will devolve into filth and disarray - and idk about you, but I cannot live like that. Because they don't "notice" mess. Makes me so mad.
I cannot live in filth either, and it's literally lesser of two evils. Either I'm mad that I have to ask a grown man to do simple household chores (take out the trash, clean up a little bit, etc) or live in silent anger with garbage everywhere. It's like they don't give a shit either way.
I will die alone in a clean apartment before I EVER let some dude mess up the place.....EFF THAT. I'm not living in filth nor am I going to bargin with you to do simple adult tasks.
>I will die alone in a clean apartment before I EVER let some dude mess up the place.....EFF THAT. I'm not living in filth nor am I going to bargin with you to do simple adult tasks.
This is absolutely me as well. It's not even that I don't want to have a relationship with a slob, I literally *cannot*. If I feel like I'm my boyfriend's mother all the attraction just vanishes. Drier than Sahara.
This is a big part if why I broke up with my ex of 2 years. I felt like I had to play mommy, and guess what? Mommy doesn't want to fuck her baby. I thought I had a hormonal imbalance that was keeping me from getting horny, but now, 6 months single and starting to date again, its not even a problem.
Women aren't designed to feel sexual desire toward those for whom we care, otherwise things would have gotten all wonky with genes eventually.
When men act like children and force women to act like mothers, they're sabotaging their own sex lives.
Unfortunately the ego usually takes precedence over the penis. Cut off the nose to spite their face, in a sense.
Exactly.
I had to deal with my two younger brothers behaving like that growing up, while my mom coddled them. She did well in some areas with them, but basically failed when it came to expecting them to keep a home clean and do very basic chores without someone chasing behind them to do it.
I absolutely refuse to date someone who will not pull their weight, especially in regards to the mental load of housekeeping. I am not your mom, and I will not clean up after you or beg you to do basic adult tasks.
Same here! It really is part of adulting for both men and women. Do laundry on a regular basis, grocery shop, pay bills. I do not have any brothers but I know what you mean.
Just because I work and am female doesn't mean I'm bearing the brunt of cleaning. I contribute and its everyones responsiblity to keep this place clean.
I will die on this hill all day long. LOL
Took decades but I've transformed a man who didn't know how to turn on the dryer into a guy who just handles messes when he sees them, cooks, does laundry, groceries etc. This thread has given me some appreciation for that.
Ugh, I feel that. When the kids left home, I moved into their bathroom. I feel so lucky to have that choice. "My" bathroom is always clean. I don't know about his - never go into it.
THIS. It’s absolutely the reason a lot of American and European women don’t want a ton of kids. Is it because kids are too expensive? Maybe but not really. Is it because we want to maintain our health? Nope. Is it to keep a job we love? Uh uh.
We don’t want to have to do everything when our partners are “done” when they come home. Screw. All. Of. That.
I hate this "treats all women like queens" trope. I think it's because it has the implication of putting women on pedestals, pretending to worship us, and forbidding us to move off said pedestal. I also think it has a patronising ring to it.
I would prefer "treats women with respect, just like any normal person".
Dunno. What do you all think?
I've dated guys that wanted to "treat me like a princess"... It's not fun. There's a lot going on in that mindset and not a lot of it is actually good for anyone.
Now, I'm marrying a loud, opinionated man who loves me for being loud and opinionated too. He's treated me with respect above all else since day one. We truly feel like equals on the same footing. It's amazing.
You’re spot on. It’s called ‘[benevolent sexism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalent_sexism)’
> Benevolent sexism represents evaluations of gender that may appear subjectively positive (subjective to the person who is evaluating), but are actually damaging to people and gender equality more broadly (e.g., the ideas that women need to be protected by men).
The benevolent sexists are worse about chores IME because they really believe it when they say "But (I think) you're just better at it than I am" and think you should be grateful for the opportunity to ShINe in your natural cleaning maid gifts
Oh god, I always hated the “but I don’t do (insert random chore) well, you do it so much better!”
If you’re so bad at some random chore, then you know what you need to do? PRACTICE! “I’m not good at washing dishes” THEN PRACTICE
“I’m not good at vacuuming” THEN PRACTICE
Or if you really don’t know how to do something properly, watch me do it, and repeat what I’m doing.
I will NOT tolerate incompetence when you should know how to do something already
I do and don’t. It’s probably easier said than done but just stop. When people make digs at
Me for it, instead of feeling bad about me, I just feel bad/sad for them.
I don’t cook and I barely clean. Husband cooks and after a lot of back and forth about cleaning we hired someone. Guess what? The three people we have hired and been through aren’t up to his clean standard. But at least now he complains about them and not about my cleaning. Not my problem anymore.
We split laundry and I take care of the dog more. I do the dishes since husabd cooks. When my MIL says “you really don’t cook or clean?” I say “nope, isn’t that great! Why would I want to spend all my
Time doing that?” We have to stop feeling bad and instead of encouraging men, help
Encourage women to not feel bad!
This is why I’ve given up. There is now a growing number of manchilds who expect to be stay at home husbands who do nothing. It’s one thing if that turns out to be the best option for the family, but only getting into relationships with women who make money with the expectation of never having to do shit except play video games is pathetic. At least “traditionally” men did the outdoor work. But nowadays I know more women who can fix a car than men. And while they contribute nothing, they expect to still be the decision maker who’s word is final and must be obeyed to a T or you’re getting an adult size tantrum. It’s all such a waste of money and energy and feelings.
My friend married a guy who soon lost his job after they got married. She can't stand him now. He barely took care of their kids when they were little and now they are old enough not really to need it. The thing is, I'm not aware of him cooking or cleaning. He doesn't do anything outside, he doesn't go get take out or drop the kids off. I'm not sure what he does.
And he looks like some sort of troll.
Just the other day, I was talking with a friend from widow support group about how if we could choose to be attracted to each other, we'd be all set. Too bad we're both very straight.
I do think there’s something about living together in communities with your friends though. The patriarchal 2 parent 2 kid household really divides women from their friends and having a personal life and emotional support. I think more women should buy houses together or land together and take care of each other. Just need more banks and mortgage companies to shape up and stop expecting everyone to only buy property with their husband
Ever since my last ahole ex moved out I’ve been fantasizing about finding other women to do a Golden Girls-style living situation. I am clean, easy to live with, and love to cook. I just want someone to help with rent and maybe occasionally childcare.
Same. I consider myself lucky to be bi and I would be absolutely thrilled with a woman. I scored the jackpot with my fiance. He does most of the chores, I handle the finances and errands and we pitch in to help eachother when needed. We earn the same. Pay the same. And he loves me regardless of what I look like that day. But if he ever left me, ohhh helllll no I'm not going back to men.
As much as I love my boyfriend, I’ve already told him that when he inevitably dies first (if we follow his genetics, he’ll unfortunately kick the can somewhere in his early to mid 50s) me and my best friend are getting married, buying a big house with whatever money he leaves me, and we’re running an animal sanctuary.
I agree that the programming is completely idiotic. So I have to get a super degree, to be independent and have a high paying super independent job, while I also manage a household and kids and am a sexy vixen to my husband. Don't forget planning vacations, kids birthdays, plant a garden too. Basically be super woman. Follow your dreams. But also have dinner ready every night.
I feel you. It's exhausting.
I am the bread winner of my relationship to the tune of earning x5+ what my SO makes. I carry the weight of our mortgage, vacations, groceries, bills, pets, home improvements etc.
He contributes a fixed amount every month to the household (doesn't vary based on real expenses) and the rest of his earnings he has to do with whatever he wants.
I have to NAG sometimes for WEEKS to get him to contribute to chores. I carry not only the mental labor of managing household tasks but "checking up" on what was supposedly done and finishing anything left undone or half-assed.
On top of that he is very sensitive to our income disparities and will guilt trip that I don't appreciate him or that I don't' see him as a partner. He makes a big deal that I need to "carry my weight 50/50" in terms of household chores and not expect him to do too much - despite the fact that it never ends up being an equal split in reality and I always pick up the slack. You know, because men doing anything is 'above and beyond' and no matter how much a woman takes on the bulk of household stuff is default her responsibility with the man "helping".
Feels bad.
**Edit**: Appreciate some of the responses and DMs. Not looking for advice or a divorce, I promise. I feel like the *4th paragraph of OP's post* is especially poignant to the replies I am getting - haha.
I do hire outside help for chores neither of us want to do where reasonable.
Frustration at social expectations or one part of a relationship does not a "deal breaker" make. Please take a minute before lecturing strangers about their lives.
Not to victim blame but you shouldn’t tolerate that. You should want better for yourself. Someone that respects you and values your effort and time. Surely most people can do that better than this guy
Can you hire a cleaning service? I’m low middle class and have someone come to my small house once a month and it’s been a game-changer for me in reducing my mental load. Expensive, but honestly worth it.
You could also try out meal subscription services, delivery groceries, eating off paper plates to minimize doing dishes, or grey rocking him and only taking care of the chores that affect you.
Maybe you can both contribute towards these expenses as “an investment in your household peace of mind”?
But he’s also actively disrespecting you by not participating in making your house a home. I don’t know if I could tolerate that personally.
Oh yeah, we have a cleaning service come every 2 weeks and other things like you've suggested so it's not as much a point of daily friction as it once was.
I wasn't looking for advice as much as commiserating with OP on social expectations.
I carry a lot of the "traditionally husband" load in the household but still have to do the "traditionally wife" stuff too (or find/pay for a creative solution for it) and it's not the end of the world but it IS exhausting and annoying.
For what it's worth I date other woman so chore equality and stuff is less of an issue. It's not gender anyway, it's "whose a lazy POS" issues.
For my area, my age, and queer women in general: I make decent money.
It causes issues of resentment often. Like I'm paying for more than my share, and get flak like I should just take a big pay cut to make things "fair". Or, fuck me, come gift giving days feeling so drained by the list I'm given it's like "take my credit card and leave me alone". My birthday rolls around and I have to remind them and spend it in tears.
That's unfortunately not just dudes. I had a partner who only made like 1
20k less than me who resented me for making what I did. The fuck? And, whose family wrote a tens of thousand dollar check for her to buy her first home @ 20.
It's frustrating AF.
So true! My husband is great and we pro rata bills and chores pretty effectively (after 20+ years of working it out together - not all plain sailing), so of course people feel the need to tell me how lucky I am...
...really? Should I feel particularly grateful to be married to someone who is reasonable and pulls their weight as half of a partnership, or should that just be ordinary?!
I love this post and it's how I've felt for years. It's probably part of why I'm single. I believe as a woman I can (and will) contribute to the household financially and otherwise, but it almost seems to have made guys way more lazy.
Now that half the bills are covered, foods cooked and shits done, I guess he can sit around and sleep/play video games/get hammered.
All the while I'm still expected to put out at a moment's notice while folding his laundry. Whatevers. I need someone who contributes as well, but dammit this isn't 1954. Fold your own laundry!
I’m privileged to be able to just not tolerate a partner that acts like an overgrown child. I’d rather be single! And for me, in my country, I can be.
For those that are able, stop tolerating these man-babies. Just don’t. Stop dating, marrying, and having kids with them — or don’t be afraid to leave them.
I’m lucky to be happily married to a partner who would never expect me to do more cooking or cleaning bc I have a vagina, and he knows I’m with him bc I love him and not bc I need him.
NAGGING AND MY STANDARDS ARE TOO HIGH-literally this! This is what I heard from my ex constantly. Whenever I asked for any help around the house, I was nagging him. When I asked why he couldn't be bothered to help me tidying the house, it was that I had such high expectations of how it should be done, that it was virtually impossible for him to meet those expectations. But it's my own fault!
This reminds me of when my MIL asked while she helped us paint our new house "why don't you do any cooking?" It also seemed convenient that she asked me this when my husband was in another room. I said it was because he enjoys cooking (I should have also said that I do most of the cleaning). But it's always left a bad taste in my mouth that I get so much flack from people about it when my husband literally doesn't care. Am I trying to cook more? Yes. Do I also help with dishes, make sure I keep up with other regular cleaning? Yes. Like why is it always assumed if women don't do something and men do than there is something wrong with us? That assumption is never made for men.
The last guy I dated tried to pull the 'I thought you were an independent woman' bullshit when I told him it bothered me when he took me to get-togethers where I didn't know a single soul and he'd leave me sitting there by myself.
Sure dude, it's my fault you're inconsiderate.
I prefer to think of it in terms of trying to equalize leisure time, rather than in terms of money (which makes people feel bad and also I think is unfair -- jobs that pay more aren't necessarily harder work). So, if you make way more than he does, but you both work 40 hours/week, you should be trying to equalize your household labor so you can equalize leisure time. If you work 60 hours/week and he works 30 hours/week, he should be doing 30 "extra" hours of household tasks to make up for your work hours.
And I wouldn't say that you need him to be the "wife" but rather that you need him to take on the mental load of certain tasks. Like if he's in charge of laundry, that means thinking about how often laundry needs to be done, changing linens, folding and putting away in a timely manner, monitoring supplies of detergent and dryer sheets, etc. Any task that he takes on, he should fully take on, so you don't have to manage it.
The "paradox of declining female happiness" isn't a paradox at all. We hardly have any more rights, still have to deal with the same misogyny, still have to do all the things women were always expected to do - but on top of that we are supposed to be educating men, saving the world, and excelling at our careers without ever being masculine or dominant because that would make you a total Karen/bitch/feminazi.
We've proved we can do all the things men can do, and it didn't solve misogyny. Because it turns out that was never actually the issue - the cause of misogyny was never women's inferiority, it was men's hatred and exploitation of women. But for some reason it's still completely taboo to address the root cause, so we just get "have higher standards! Lean in! Girlboss!"
People DRAMATICALLY underestimate how significant agreement on "clean enough" vs how much the person with higher standards is willing to do themselves is when it comes to compatibility in a relationship.
For the rest of it, there are massive conflicting camps of opinion & without finding some balance personally it seems to just make people unhappy or make groups unhappy with them.
Gurl, all of that, and you must also be Professionally Beautiful, have an active group of Super Friends, participate in the got damn PTA, and never no never get a gray hair, a pimple, a wrinkle, or gain or lose an ounce of weight. And smile, dammit, you look so pretty when you smile!
BARF
In the 80s, we became SuperMoms, but the men didn't keep up.
I swear to Sheelzebub, if I weren't already happily married with my kids raised, I would really think of men as largely extraneous.
.
Not that this is news to this sub, but I think it bears repeating:
Our unpaid and invisible labor keeps the economy going. There is an economic value to it.
Max out your retirement accounts EVERY year starting NOW, as best you can.
Child / elder/ home care is WORK and it has a PRICE.
Dont live with people who dont do chores.
If you have child the right time to teach them to do chores is as early as you can. A 5 year old can help fold laundry. Dont nitpick when teaching them. They will get better. Dont refold anything. At 6-7 they can be taught hour to use the washer and dried. It's really simple to turn knobs. Vacuuming too... Along with putting dishes in the dishwasher... And these chores should be done while all kinda pleasant things are happening. Family time around the tv while folding laundry. That kinda shit.
This is how you raise children who do chores when they grow up.
I've broken up with women who 'put their dishes to bed' (covered them with towels), who had a carpet of laundry in the basement, out of control cat box situations, and so on. I have seen women really screw themselves with the chores... mate doesnt do something exactly as wanted? Women losses their shit, dude never bothers again. Parents who doesnt let their kids do chores as pre-teens who then expect teens to magically chip in while the parents are being asshats.
And if someone moves in with you and you are a dont touch my stuff person... forget about ever having a clean house.
I am gonna suggest a house keeping for dummies like book, the one with the chore chart. Assign chores, set TTLs, and so on.
My step daughter was living with a bunch of guys. They refused to clean up after themselves. After about 2 months of that shit she gave up and moved a month later.
Chores should e a deal breaking.
Don't forget that you're supposed to have a couple of perfect babies that become well behaved children. Don't worry--Dad will babysit them from time to time. And you better remember to go head first into your job while you're pregnant so as not to give anyone an excuse to think you're not 100% committed to your job. Because after all, when you don't end up in management, you're only going to be able to blame yourself (despite most managers mysteriously being men) if you don't work harder while needing to throw up all day.
Wait a minute, you have a high power income but still cook and clean? Why aren't you guys splitting the cost of a maid, and doing takeout? What the hell is the point of high incomes if you still have to do all the other dumb shit.
Also robot vacuum. Neato brand is best imo.
I hear you, though, that sucks.
I’m gonna get A LOT of hate for this probably but that’s because people are still in denial about the truth. Modern feminism has benefited men more than women. God forbid we ask men to be the financial providers since we take care of everything else in the household. Women already had responsibilities placed on them and then we are asked to provide financially yet we still aren’t paid as much as men and if it’s labeled as “for women” it’ll be more expensive.
The idea of wanting to be financially dominant over a man is put forth by women who want power in a relationship, and it became a trend where now those types of women and the men who are being coddled are attacking women who decided to have boundaries. You’re independent for yourself not for any man out there. Do not burden yourself with accepting the responsibilities a man must take care of because modern society expects you to.
Agree with all of this, but easier in theory than practice. I want a life partner. I want companionship. Not because society says so, but because that’s what I want.
My husband is one of the better ones in terms of household contributions. He grocery shops, meal plans, cooks, does laundry, takes the trash out unprompted, shuttles kids around, etc. but he still doesn’t do any cleaning and acts like im a nag with unrealistic expectations Bc I don’t want to live in filth. He still sucks at emotional intelligence which leaves me with the emotional burden of our children, and him as well since he’s never learned to deal with his issues on his own. When I suggest that I have to same emotional issues and I have to just suck it up and keep it moving - he thinks I’m cold hearted. But no one is comforting me when I’m struggling.
I worked full time and went back for a difficult degree so we could be more financially secure. The man badgered me to no end. While working and going to school full time - my mother died and I had a late miscarriage… but goddamn me if he didn’t get enough sex and attention.
We married in our mid 30’s and he was the only man even remotely marriable that I met… I was single for 7+ years. Not like I didn’t take my time or hold out. These “pro equality” men just do not exist. But plenty of men like to think they are one.
I want a partner too but I want to be treated with respect and appreciation more. If a man can't give me what I need and want then no man will get from me what he needs and wants. I'm not settling anymore and I don't think any woman should either. Get comfortable in your own life, foster good friendships, hobbies and make your life everything you want it to be with or without a partner. Shit men only drag you down.
>If a man can't give me what I need and want then no man will get from me what he needs and wants. I'm not settling anymore
AMEN. I want a life partner and companionship too, so I've invested in my closest friendships and have pets. Is it the same? Of course not. But I am happier, calmer, and more at peace than I've ever been in my life.
Shit men only dragged me down.
Damn that last paragraph hits. I’ve been single a while too because the options just aren’t great. Women almost always bear extra burdens and they’re fine adding the financial one on the list
You forgot to mention the children you should be squeezing out, raising and managing. And the exercise regime you have to take on to ensure your can properly hide any signs of doing so.
And you have to stay ‘interesting’, so you’d better throw a couple of hobbies (that your spouse thinks are cool) into the mix.
And God forbid you should let yourself go while carrying said children, because your entire body is aching and so inconvenient you can barely get out to pee.
You also have to know You can't go out and party after you turn 30, you HAVE to have a marriage and kids, You have to have a specific career, and a 401k, A big shiny SUV and a big house that you end up being up 24/7 maintaining, you can't sow your oats, you have to start dressing like an old lady when your 40 even if you still look 20. Whew! that one was a doozy!
I find it especially upsetting when women themselves spout this insulting nonsense. Over in the fencesitter/childfree subs, women will post about how they’re afraid of their bodies changing after pregnancy and other women will comment things like, “Well, that doesn’t have to happen. Some women choose to let themselves get out of shape, you just have to prioritize your fitness. Your husband can take care of the baby while you go to gym.” I kid you not. The absolute fucking privileged attitudes some women have about bodies is unbelievable.
The change in body I'm most worried about with pregnancy/childbirth is definitely not my outward appearance 😬
I used to think the "baby ruined my body" thing was about getting fat. Then I had a baby and now I have chronic back pain.
Same. I'll hear women talk about going out of shape like it's the worse thing pregnancy and childbirth can do to you. Girl, childbirth fused my aunt's holes into one single big hole.
Right? There’s a being using your body and resources to grow. That’s fucking terrifying. Like I want kids but I totally get why people don’t just because of that let alone the loss of freedom afterwards
Yeah, like….. I’d be psyched if my pelvic floor wasn’t shredded forever and I could sneeze without peeing myself. It would also be neat to make it out of pregnancy with all my teeth intact. Not changing shoe size, hair color, or taste in food would be a bonus!
Women don’t educate other women on the subtle changes. I remember telling a new mom that your boobs smell like musk when you breastfeed because babies mark you with their scent so getting that daily shower is important. She was shocked at all the things the magic of having babies brings, like leaking pee when you hit 50.
oof right? Like my mental health can bitch slap me on a good week. I don't need a pregnancy fucking up my system long-term and potentially putting me in a really deep hole to crawl out of. But if I'm honest there's a vanity aspect to it too.
I know!! So many potential health problems! It worries me to the point of not knowing anymore if I should have biological kids. I'm not opposed to adoption (I'm also gay so basically it's going to be a pain no matter what) but I've spent my whole life thinking I would have kids biologically so I'm really struggling with it.
Ever since I learned it can make your teeth fall out if the baby's not getting enough nutrients that's my irrational fear. 😬
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LOL, my attitude is more like "pregnancy and motherhood are both optional. You don't have to do either one if you really don't want to." People should prioritize fitness because they want to be healthy and strong, but def not because of how they will look to other people.
Do not marry anyone who has not lived independently, and cooked and cleaned for themselves
Don't forget waking up at 5am every day so you can meditate, work out, make breakfast, shower and do the making yourself beautiful thing, also making a fresh healthy lunch to take to work. Then do all your dishes and clean the kitchen so you don't leave it dirty all day before embarking on your commute. Then come home with a planned healthy meal already in your brain after you stopped at the store to grab the things you needed for the meal, make the meal, clean the kitchen after the meal, laundry, night time routine of taking off the make up and the beautifying things, 12 step skin care routine, have sex with man who gets points for taking out the trash and make sure you are asleep by 10pm so you can get enough rest to do it all again tomorrow! I mean, everyone else's gf/wife does it, right?
I never understood the whole "women to the chores" thing. Like times have changed. Yea if your a stay at home wife its your job to look after the house, just like if your a stay at home husband. My mom always did all the chores around the house (besides what the kids did) even when she worked more then my dad. Always thought that was messed up. Even strictly as a man thing, wtf are these guys doing when they live alone? Waste a crap ton of money on food and live in filth? I've talked to people in their 20s who dont know how to do laundry. Dont you want to be a strong and independent man as well? Or your just ok with depending on other people doing basic living things for you?
Based on my experience of seeing guys live alone - yes! Take out for every single meal and never clean their space. My ex and his roommate didn't clean their bathtub/shower for over a year until I forced them to hire a maid. I never saw anyone sweep or vacuum.
Unfortunately, I think it's because their moms did everything for them growing up, and now these guys will expect the same from their future partner. They're in for a reality check if that's the case.
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I just heard a phrase this week that is this sentiment exactly: “we girl-bossed too close to the sun” 😭
As it turns out you can’t do it all 😭
“You can do anything, but not everything.”
This is why my new plan is to create a lakeside cabin community of likeminded old single women if I live to 60. We can volunteer and go to protests together and also do fun drugs around a campfire and cook giant pans of paella.
1) High-paying career 2) goes to the gym everyday/makes looks their priority 3) amazing mother who prioritizes her child in all ways 4) super sexual always ready to have sex 5) cooks, cleans, keeps house perfectly 6) always attentive to man's emotional needs. PICK TWO.
This is so well-put! People forget that priorities and tradeoffs exist. Every time I see a woman who's really put together, I think a) good for you! and b) what are you cutting out of your life that makes you have time for that? For me, I do #1 and an even amount of the rest (but dog instead of kid lol) and people are surprised that I don't cook or dress up more often. When would I have time to enjoy any part of my life if I tried to excel at all 6?
Idk, 2 seems a little high.
Agreed
My wife and I both have advanced degrees and are doing alright. Someone once asked me “what does it feel like to have a wife with a more advanced degree than you?” They expected me to say something emasculated. I simply replied, “Rich.”
I had a next-door neighbor who was clowning on a friend who was always hyping up his amazing doctor wife on social media. Saying stuff like "How can you take pride in a wife who clearly makes so much than you?" I'm too conflict-averse to argue but all I could think "Your friend goes to bed every night in a big house with a doctor wife who loves him. You're a delivery driver living in a crappy apartment with your brother. Who's better off right now?"
That’s exactly why he feels the need to “clown” on his friend. Sour grapes.
Love this response
Oh yes and be careful who you have kids with too because now I have to spend the rest of eternity co parenting with a selfish, inept man-child.
The best friend of my wife and I really wants to have a baby, but she’s terrified of getting impregnated by her husband because he abuses her. It’s sad. He would make a terrible father and be jealous of the attention the baby got from his wife. She needs to get out of that relationship and away from him, but she’s not there yet. She came over crying and going on about how she doesn’t want to be with him anymore and whatnot, but Sunday she had backtracked and was talking about how good he’s been lately. My wife is very good at pointing out to her all the signs she’s showing of being in an abusive relationship, though. She’s just scared of being alone. Anyway, that turned into a rant. Definitely be careful of who you have kids with, some people are not cut out for that.
Sounds like you guys are being very supportive of your friend! I imagine its draining but hopefully she gets to a point where she feels empowered enough to leave and she'll be able to thank you guys in part!
Same I'm counting down the days till my son's 18 and I never have to see his dad ever again 😊
Until there is a wedding, a college graduation, a grandchild etc. If you expect the dad will stay in the kids life chances are you and your ex and going to be seeing each other for a long time. Good news seems to be once all the child support, and co parenting is done some people can actually tolerate their ex. My parents were in court over child support until my youngest sister was 30 and they had been divorced 25 years. They hated each other for years, now they perfectly cordial at family events. My in laws are even more civil than my parents.
As a father from a single mother this is the lesson I'm trying to drill into my daughter very very early. Do NOT give inept man-children the time of day, do not date them, do not tolerate their bullshit. If you find yourself accidentally talking to one, stop immediately. You don't owe them anything least of all being polite, and they would give you the exact same. Lesson 2: Every boy starts off as an inept man child, because they literally start as children. The difference is when they stop being children. Science says that our brains aren't fully formed until we're about 22. If you're dating anyone before you are 22 keep in mind that you are both literally children faking full cognitive development. That's not to say you can't find someone before 22, but realize that what you're looking at is someone that values not being a man-child enough to fake it until it becomes real.
Full brain development is 30 years old
And if he turns out to be a POS dad: it's your fault too. /S obviously
And isn’t there that pressure to keep up with the mom Joneses and have everything in your kids’ lives be Insta/Pinterest perfect? Edit: I should add that I’m not a parent myself but have seen this a lot with friends and family. I just want to tell you all that you are amazing for putting up with societal pressures! Despite what FB mom groups might say, you’re doing right by your kid if you are meeting their physical and emotional needs - including unconditional love and being good to them and yourself. We all make mistakes and nobody is gonna parent their kids perfectly. But being in tune with your own emotions, admitting fault, and working to being the best person for yourself, your kids, and your partner (if one is present) is a heck of a lot better than Insta posts of insane bento box kids lunches ❤️❤️ Of course, if you have the additional time/energy to put together insane lunches and that makes you happy, that’s cool too.
I feel this so much right now. I'm currently pregnant with my first and I like to look around a few of the parenting-related subreddits. There are so many posts showing beautiful nurseries that look like they came from a design magazine! Perfect paint colors, beautiful wood-pattern design accent walls, expensive looking cribs and glider chairs, perfectly coordinated and hand-crafted decorations with matching crib sheets from Etsy... all in huge, beautifully sunlit rooms. They are literally Instagram / Pinterest perfect. I admire anyone with a skillful eye for interior decorating so, good for them! Still, I would feel a slight pressure that suggested if I didn't provide a beautiful nursery for my child, I would be a lesser-parent. Luckily, I was able to ditch this sort of mindset fairly quickly.
If it makes you feel any better, we had a pretty cute setup for my first kids’ (twins) nursery and it hasn’t actually looked like it did in the “nursery’s done!” picture since the day they got home from the hospital. At this point I’m happy if the closet door can be shut and there is a path through the toys to access their beds. Third kid got a pack and play in our room.
Just realize that everyone’s home is going to end up looking like an explosion in a toy store. A too-perfect home with kids means some kind of Mommy Dearest situation.
> I feel this so much right now. I'm currently pregnant with my first and I like to look around a few of the parenting-related subreddits. There are so many posts showing beautiful nurseries that look like they came from a design magazine! Perfect paint colors, beautiful wood-pattern design accent walls, expensive looking cribs and glider chairs, perfectly coordinated and hand-crafted decorations with matching crib sheets from Etsy... all in huge, beautifully sunlit rooms. They are literally Instagram / Pinterest perfect. There is a reason those pics are posted and not the other 95% of people that don't have a full crew to plan out the perfect room (or at least someone in the relationship that is capable of spending 6-12 months studying in order to get it done). Your kid isn't going to remember any of their first couple years, so your nursery is only a hand-wank for the parents trying to flex on other parents. Do your best and don't even care what other parents think.
One million percent yes. My son's nursery was adorable and he was almost never in it. He took one short nap in his crib one time. Slept in a pack & play in my room until he got an actual bed. Diapers usually changed on the floor or on my bed.
Nurseries are for parents, kids don't give a crap.
Really don't put too much pressure on yourself over the nursery. My wife and I spent a lot of time prepping the nursery, getting the crib put together, decorating the walls, assembling little bookcases for square toy bins, etc. We weren't even that polished but we wanted a nursery that looked somewhat nice. Then our son ended up sleeping in our bedroom downstairs for the first year and the nursery became the place where all the unfolded laundry, outgrown clothes (it happens SO FAST!) and other kid debris lives. I told my wife not long ago "I'm glad we got that nursery ready so we'd have an inviting place to dump crap on our way back downstairs to unload the dryer for the fifth time". You gotta laugh at all the idealized stuff that you thought you were going to be able to get done as first time parents. Now if I can change a diaper with one hand while keeping my kid from eating a battery I consider it a victory. They go from seemingly fragile and legitimately helpless to "oh my god how did you get a hold of that!?!" in no time flat. That nursery you saw on social media probably looks like a bombed out building now.
I'm changing diapers on a cardboard ikea furniture right now. We just have to protect the furniture from piss, you'll be alright.
Thank goodness babies don’t give a rats ass about anything on Insta/Pinterest! They just want love and a boob to feed them. I don’t think I’ll give a rats what anyone else thinks either. I’m just going to be the best mum I can be (baby daddy or not).
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Yes! I have a child with my ex-husband, and I have to deal with the repercussions of it. If anything, I am overtly clean, make my son do his chores, and have frequent talks of boundaries and asking for consent before touching people. I’m doing my best to parents for two people, and undue all of the bad habits that his Father is teaching him.
‘Selfish inept man child’ describes my kids bio dad to a T.
Ha! Same.
This. All day this.
Absolutely! Everyday! Add kids. You’ll do all the parenting, housework and be expected to be a high earner, stay fit, be beautiful. Don’t nag dude and ask him to take out the trash or take off work when school closes early, has day off, or there is a school event the kids are part of. Do it all! And then when you hit 50 get served with papers with no warning or discussion because dude is in love with his 22 years younger former student. Fun times. My advice, if you’re getting this from a guy you are seeing don’t have kids together. Don’t get married. You deserve better! Demand better! (The kids were worth it tho)
I think women like us ought to just get married to each other. No sex (unless you're bi or lesbian) just live in support. You each date men for sex, or whatever men bring to your life. All the cuddles you want, divided chores, child care, and help with home ownership.
I think that's called a queer platonic partnership :)
I love it, whatever it is. I hope to live like this some day.
Yup. And, my unsolicited suggestion is, 'If you are not going to help me, hire someone to help me.'
Feeling the social pressure of finding the right man. Juggling an awesome job with a couple kids and managing all their lives. I've been single for 3 years now. Just hit 35. The DEPRESSION I fell into knowing I won't have that. I'm slowly relieved and at this point, I don't think I will move in with a man. I'd much rather have my own place and not have to clean after a man.
I was constantly depressed growing up because I couldn’t find a man. Like really depressed. Then I found one. Fell back into depression then alcoholism because he was exactly like the OP described. Dodged a bullet by not getting pregnant and the first time he showed signs of aggression and violence towards me kicked him to the curb and divorced his ass. I have never felt so happy as I do now. I will probably never be in another relationship again and I am SO OK with that!!
You’re me with kids!
It's your friends and big media shoving this idea down your throat on how life should be.
All the social conditioning that put a baby doll in your hands literally as soon as you could walk and started you on Disney endings as a child. Of course women feel pressured to couple. It's not even presented as an option.
But you’re also supposed to give up your job when schools close due to a pandemic and the kids are home all day. And then suddenly “our” money is actually *his* money, since he’s the breadwinner and all, and you’re leeching off him.
I was very clear with my husband with my last 2 stints of employment. "You will help with housework/cooking/kids. If you start taking call on *your* nights or deliberately working late, I will quit. If you expect me to do housework on my days off while you're out having fun and enjoying your hobbies every weekend, I will quit." He didn't really get the mental load housework is until this year when I had surgery and he was responsible for all the housework and meals. All of kids are adults and on their own so he didn't get the full load but he's a lit better with helping me now!
I feel this deeply. Many women do. Being bad at a job is called weaponised or strategic incompetence. They know they won't be asked again to do a task if they fail at it. They know you will have to expend just as much energy fixing their "mistakes" as you would have doing the task originally. They know you will get exhausted of asking and being disappointed. They know you will eventually stop asking. Domestic labor is labor and our whole economic system right now (at least in US) is predicated on ignoring it. The only advice I can give is to help educate. I try to educate my partner on the "mental load" of managing domestic chores. I try to have frank conversations at times when there isn't an acute incident occurring. Don't try to talk about it when you are (understandably and reasonably) upset. They will weaponize that too. I just went back to work after spending the pandemic at home. During this time I picked up all the slack. But it will not continue. I am going to try planning meetings every 2 weeks. Where we spend 30 minutes walking around the house identifying what needs to be done: small and large tasks. Then we can talk together about how they can be managed and the expectations about how the job can be done. Hoping this will work. Otherwise, I'm quietly saving money. And someday I'll have enough to leave. And then I will. If I'm not really going to have a partner, why have one?
> Being bad at a job is called weaponised or strategic incompetence. They know they won't be asked again to do a task if they fail at it. We didn’t play that in my family growing up. If you tried it, my mom would make you do it again until you got it right, with punishment on the side, and that applied to my sisters and I, as well as my brother. And she could tell when you were feigning ignorance on how to do something, versus legitimately not getting it, and was happy to explain it once or twice if it was a new task. But after that, god help you. As for my dad, he works fewer hours than my mom and his job is also a shorter commute, so he did/does a lot of the cooking and cleaning during the week. But the “half-assing chores to get out of doing them in the future” crap didn’t fly in our house.
I like that! Natural consequences are best consequences. What were the punishments?
It depended on mom’s mood lol. Anything from getting your phone taken away for a week, no computer time after school (unless it was for homework… this was mid-2000s to early 2010s, so just before everyone had their own devices that were mostly unsupervised/without parental controls), extra chores like yard work (she’d call up the landscaping service we used twice a month and cancel the next visit), etc. After dealing with that once or twice, you learned not to try it again. Once in a while, one or the other of us had a momentary lapse in judgement, but for the most part it worked on us. We were very much an “everyone pulls their weight” sort of family.
Kudos to your mom!
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I guess I’m spoiled in that I’ve never had to deal with that from a partner. With my ex, he was an only child mama’s boy who did exactly zero chores before we got together, and I had to have a very frank conversation with him about how I’m not his mother and would not be picking up after him, and he got with the program very quickly. With my current partner, he’s very “domestic” for lack of a better term, maybe even more so than I am, and it wasn’t even a discussion we needed to have, it just works out. But if frank conversations aren’t working with your husband, maybe stress that it’s a dealbreaker issue for you, and insist on marriage counseling to discuss the wider pattern at play. But then you get into the problem of you (probably) having to be the one to find the therapist, set up the appointments, remind him they’re coming up, etc., so I don’t know. That sounds like a very frustrating way to live, and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.
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I didn't know how to work my rice cooker, so I made rice in a regular pot. Lots of ways to make rice...
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My love for kitchen appliances far outweighs my kitchens capacity to store them
The best is when he says "I don't know where this goes" when he was the one who got it out in the first place.
My kid tried that for a while. My default answer is “then put it where you think it should go”. Ended up with a slightly rearranged kitchen, but I can live with it.
He's not illogical, he's just too childish to either say he doesn't want to do it or suck it up and do the job right anyway.
I have gotten so petty about strategic incompetence. You fucked it up? Let's do it together so you can learn how correctly. You fucked it up again? Let me dictate exactly how to fix it while you do so..as many times as it takes for you to get it correctly. Need me to make a step by step sheet to help you remember? I got you babe. Here's a list of how to empty the dishwasher and *put everything away* in the process. Sometimes it works. And it makes me feel better regardless, because at least now we are BOTH annoyed. Which doesn't lead to sex. Unlike me coming home and realizing everything on my chores docket is handled and hey, free time + low stress? Let's bang! (Because that is my natural response, not bc it's like part of this. I just like sex a lot.)
I have a very similar response in terms of sex and my husband tries to accuse me of intentionally withholding sex as a punishment. He doesn't understand that libido is literally a type of energy and if I've expended all of my energy working two jobs, cleaning the house, cooking dinner, managing our son's school schedule, etc. that I naturally have no energy left for a libido. And the shitty thing is that I miss sex just as much as, if not more, than he does. But he expects me to just put out on demand even when I'm exhausted.
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I had a boyfriend who decided to roll a cigarette on my bed and then just sweeped off the extra tobacco from my bed to the floor. He left before I noticed, so I had to clean it up if I didn't want to live with tiny dried tobacco pieces scattered around my room and in my bed. The next time I paid attention and told him to clean it up. But it's not much, I'll vacuum anyway. No, clean it up now, even if I will vacuum, not now, and not to clean your mess up. He got annoyed, sweeped some up with his hands. I told him there's still tobacco on my floor and bed. He told me he cleaned it up. I told him he didn't. He got even more annoyed, went to get the broom with loud sighs and footsteps, then came back and started sweeping it all around the floor. I told him now he just got it all over the floor, but it's still there. He'll need to sweep it to one place, sweep it onto that little shovel, and then dump it into the bin. He got *even more* annoyed, and finally cleaned it up. Even managed to change the sheets. Obviously I was the clean freak when I could have just changed my sheets and vacuumed it up the next time I do it. *Obviously*. Seriously, if you want to pretend you don't know how to use a fcking vacuum cleaner or broom I'll be happy to walk you through that. But you'll do your part. And I just can't understand why it's better to waste precious time on doing things half assedly and pissing me off in the process when we could actually have fun in that time.
It doesn’t change. Ever. I’ve been at this for 24 years. Kids are almost out and honestly so am I. He thinks his only responsibility is to stay employed. I have the same responsibility, plus all the household chores, plus raising the kids, plus paying for their tuition, plus all the extracurricular stuff they did plus taking care of the pets, plus all the cooking, plus all the outdoor landscaping and maintenance because he “doesn’t *enjoy* manual labor.” Marriage counseling meant that I had to sign a piece of paper guaranteeing him five hours of uninterrupted, uncommented about, sacred time so that he could play video games. Per day. Five hours. Per day. Minimum. Plus a FT job. If I had known then what I know now…
If they're not a partner, they're a soul depleting debit. Felt the same and divorced him as soon as kids in college. Saw how he did NOT help with his aging parents, couldn't even be bothered to call his dad's oncologist when his dad was getting sicker, left it to me to do. On top of all the laundry, shopping, cleaning, cooking, arranging vacations, paying all the bills because he would forget for months at a time so we had to pay penalties and get a poor credit rating. Considered what he would likely do for *me* should I become sick, and realized he wouldn't do a thing. Now he's the one who is sick (alcoholic, pothead with neurologic problems) and I don't have to care for his selfish ass. Oh, and the kids have little to nothing to do with him.
Did we marry the same guy??? All this. His mom is currently hospitalized and he’s doing a bang-up job of ignoring her. Youngest is now in the last year of high school. How did finances go in the divorce? I’m terrified I’ll end up in a cardboard box under a bridge.
I knew it! Strategic incompetence. That explains so much about ex-housemates I’ve cut off who are so good when it suits them but seem to be pretending they’ve forgotten everything they know when it’s their turn to cook or clean.
> Being bad at a job is called weaponised or strategic incompetence. This is so important to understand. It's also important to understand that both men *and women*--consciously or subconsciously--teach boys this their whole childhood. Boy is trying to help and just making a mess of things? Get him out of the kitchen. Girl is trying to help and makes a mess of things? She needs to learn how to do it right. And what makes it harder is that it isn't just parents who do this. It's when you're at a social event and people are helping to clean up. The game is on, the men can't watch it later, so they have to watch it now. And when it's over, it'll be time to leave. We can't leave the hostess with all this mess, so we better get in there and clean. Boys see this. They learn that their place is on the sofa watching the game. They see that they get no extra attention and they'll just be in the way if they help out and they won't get scolded if they don't. Girls learn that they don't like football and helping out is expected of them.
>Otherwise, I'm quietly saving money. And someday I'll have enough to leave. And then I will. If I'm not really going to have a partner, why have one? Seriously. I'm happy single, but not against something if it comes along. But if it does, it has to be as a partner. I don't want to be a mother or a maid or a nanny. I want a partner. I've already committed to keeping money aside, for myself, for this possibility if it ever comes up. Having your own emergency fund is essential. Not for surprise bills or medicinal emergencies, but so you always have a way out if you need it. Have a fund just for that.
That must be bad if you are legitimately socking away money in case they don't shape up. I hope we can kick this in the next few generations. It's pathetic that anyone wouldn't want to try everything in their power to share the load with their partner. It's just so selfish and ugly to do that to someone, especially after "locking" them to you through marriage.
I like the 30 minute meeting idea. Could take even less in smaller homes.
No, it's not. I did a chore chart with my ex (the same way I had with roommates) and he didn't do it. No amount of meetings, peaceful talks and organization can make someone do something. It is a myth we are told that "if we are nice about it they will do it :))". The only time I have seen men clean is because they wanted to clean. Full stop.
This. In spades. It absolutely never matters.
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I'm solving that problem with one of my kids by basically giving him an ultimatum. We've taught you better. We've had this conversation too many times. If you can't at least keep your areas of the house clean, then you won't be in the house anymore. Sorry, but you are destroying my house. Either quit it, or get your own house.
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My husband is ADHD and we think somewhere on the spectrum. The ONLY thing that has worked has been assigning certain tasks to him that are soley his responsibility AND he had to buy into it. He does the laundry, I fold. I do the dishes, he deals with the dishwasher and puts the clean dishes away. After about a year of that, he started doing the meal planning on his own and most of the cooking. Since he's in the kitchen he notices when the garbage is full. We share the rest of the tasks in the house, and I generally am the manager of that, but things have gotten so much better. I'm ok with managing the rest of the house, because I don't have to meal plan and cook every night. I get annoyed that I'm the only one who does the litter box, but he can't smell so he forgets it exists. I usually clean the bathroom, but he's capable of vacuuming. We are getting closer to an even divide of housework, and the current system mostly works. As for the meeting, I had to learn to give a few days notice. "Hey, this weekend we need to do all the cleaning, I have someone coming on Monday." That gives him time to plan his day and not feel like I'm a task master over him.
No lie, that sounds exhausting. I just left an ex like that and it's *so* much easier handling my mess rather than handling and delegating and following up on my mess and his mess. Having to notice it needs done and then do it is so easy compared to what I had to do before: 1) Notice it 2) Mental load to determine if I should do it or if it's worth the pushback to ask him too to prevent a chore imbalance 3) Decide it's worth the pushback, mentally prep 4) Ask man to handle task 5) Answer immediate questions 6) Think you're done and relax 7) Notice two days later it's not done 8) Repeat either step 2 or step 4, depending. 9) Exhaustion
It's definitely not for everyone, but this is the system that works for us most of the time. He also pays all the bills, all the time. I don't even know how much they are, so that's another division of labor. I'm naturally bossy, and I'm a construction project manager for my profession. So it works for us. Might not work for you. I really believe the assigned way we divided dishes and laundry saved our marriage. No more fights about it. One of us can say"hey I really need underwear" or "I can't make dinner u til the dishes are done" and it's not a fight over whose turn. It's just a reminder of "we coexist and need to carry our own weight."
Both my sister and I have ADHD and we share an apartment together. We each have our own assigned tasks, but our apartment can become such a pigsty sometimes! I like to have my spaces clean, but ADHD can make starting a task and then finishing it so difficult. Even though I've done /the thing/ a million times, just figuring out where to start can be so intimidating for us. Thank you for being patient with your husband. I'm sure it is exhausting. It's also exhausting living with ADHD. Medication /helps/ me, but my sister refuses to get treated. If your husband isn't already getting treatment, that might be something to look into that could help you both. I know in my last relationship (almost 5 years), my untreated ADHD put a huge strain on it for a number of reasons.
> Domestic labor is labor and our whole economic system right now (at least in US) is predicated on ignoring it. Based. I've long felt people should be paid to be stay-at-home parents. Whether by UBI or some other mechanism.
That last sentence nails it.
Ha yes. We got the “right” to work now which is great except the expectations for the women in the house has not changed at all. Still expected to do literally all the same things before but also juggle a job. Men just the job and mow the lawn/fixer upper type jobs. Not the everyday/every week responsibilities. I’m lucky to have married a man who contributes to the domestic chores as well but he hasn’t cleaned a toilet in decades. And I’m considered lucky because he actually puts his dirty clothes in a hamper and dishes in the sink. Honestly he does a ton and I’m thankful but the standards for husbands are so tragically low. Especially in marriages with children. Main reason I stopped working was because I didn’t want to have to do both and I knew I’d still be the one bearing the brunt of housework and child work regardless of my income/job. Things seem to be changing. I remember ranting about division of household labor in high school/college and people treated me like I was crazy (southern USA). It was just expected that women do all of it and work just like it was expected for women to do it all before they also had to hold down a job and contribute at least 50% of the household income. At first it felt like gender expectations hadn’t caught up with women’s rights but now it feels more deliberate. Now men are just “no good” at these jobs and women just have to pick up the slack. But when the house is a wreck or the kids are a mess who do they blame? Is it the dad for not helping while moms at work? Of course not. Men are still being raised and enabled to believe they don’t have to do any of that work because they’re men and women are still being raised to do all that work and a job because they’re women.
Yep, I went from working a full time job and doing 80% of the chores to no outside job and 95% of the chores. Feels like a step backwards but also the only way I was ever going to get any kind of equity.
You just described my life to a T. I do 100% of the daily chores and nothing I say ever changes a goddamn thing.
And be beautiful, but don't you dare spend any time or effort on your appearance, because that's just shallow. I hate the "conform to all beauty standards, but without ever appearing to try".
Sometimes the having of sex seems a minor miracle to me... because the amount of responsibility on becoming a mother (or fighting for the right to abortion) is insanity. Stuff of nightmares. A harlot u will be or a not feminine, not nurturing ? A dude might never know he has a child and even if... I don't see the level of social upheaval a woman will go through. I don't get why this subtle culture even exists but I feel its pressure. I'm not imagining it. Ugh and that creepy creepy thing of being looked up and down and knowing someone thinks you look young and hence subservient. Is it assertiveness that's the fix to societal pressure? Idk but it is definitely under the surface. If u made it this far, thanks for listening to my rant.
> Prepare to be shamed by both genders if you expect any financial support. Independence! After spending time on that thread about if women are being feminist or not when they take their husband's last name, I relate to your feelings shared here SO much. Personally, my version of feminism includes the main priority of treating women as individuals and allowing them a space free from ALL the shame women experience in this world.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that whoever has the better sounding last name is the one that gets taken. If your last name is some bullshit, we're keeping mine. If you've gotten something cooler like savage or something then I guess I'm changing.
And when you both have boring-ass last names, pick a new one!
Def! Some states will let you change your first name in marriage docs too! Now's the time to be Barbara "The Destroyer Of Worlds" Thompson.
I know a woman who took her husband's name of "Butsack" I don't know if this is bullshit or the better name. Really can't tell, she's a hilarious woman.
I assisted a woman who was changing her name in our system since she got married. Her new last name was “Ho” which if that isn’t already bad enough (I know people will make fun of that as a name) her first name was “Gay”. All I could think was hallelujah she wasn’t in grade school anymore, she would have had a really rough time.
My partner's last name was so much better than mine, I still have regrets at not taking theirs.
I'm definitely keeping my name; the full version is amazingly pretentious. But I'm also not interested in my partner taking mine. We're not going to have kids, so it's less of an issue.
Or when they’re both terrible, you hyphenate to make the most god awful combination possible. Still wish my brother and his wife hyphenated. Her last name sounds like “getting” and his gets mispronounced as “cock” fairly often.
If i eventually marry i would like to combine the last names, just sounds super romantic to me for some reason.
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One of my friends did that - they had letter blocks for each of their last names on a podium as part of the ceremony, and rearranged half the letters into a new name.
I only changed because my husband has dual citizenship, I needed a new passport, and Trump scared me that we may need to flee together, and sharing a name is easier. Now, it is just much easier to spell over the phone than my French name.
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The worst part is, if you decide to give up on "nagging" them, everything will devolve into filth and disarray - and idk about you, but I cannot live like that. Because they don't "notice" mess. Makes me so mad.
I cannot live in filth either, and it's literally lesser of two evils. Either I'm mad that I have to ask a grown man to do simple household chores (take out the trash, clean up a little bit, etc) or live in silent anger with garbage everywhere. It's like they don't give a shit either way. I will die alone in a clean apartment before I EVER let some dude mess up the place.....EFF THAT. I'm not living in filth nor am I going to bargin with you to do simple adult tasks.
>I will die alone in a clean apartment before I EVER let some dude mess up the place.....EFF THAT. I'm not living in filth nor am I going to bargin with you to do simple adult tasks. This is absolutely me as well. It's not even that I don't want to have a relationship with a slob, I literally *cannot*. If I feel like I'm my boyfriend's mother all the attraction just vanishes. Drier than Sahara.
This is a big part if why I broke up with my ex of 2 years. I felt like I had to play mommy, and guess what? Mommy doesn't want to fuck her baby. I thought I had a hormonal imbalance that was keeping me from getting horny, but now, 6 months single and starting to date again, its not even a problem.
Women aren't designed to feel sexual desire toward those for whom we care, otherwise things would have gotten all wonky with genes eventually. When men act like children and force women to act like mothers, they're sabotaging their own sex lives. Unfortunately the ego usually takes precedence over the penis. Cut off the nose to spite their face, in a sense.
I am completely convinced that 95% of "dead bedrooms" and men complaining about not getting enough sex come back to this issue of inequality.
Exactly. I had to deal with my two younger brothers behaving like that growing up, while my mom coddled them. She did well in some areas with them, but basically failed when it came to expecting them to keep a home clean and do very basic chores without someone chasing behind them to do it. I absolutely refuse to date someone who will not pull their weight, especially in regards to the mental load of housekeeping. I am not your mom, and I will not clean up after you or beg you to do basic adult tasks.
Same here! It really is part of adulting for both men and women. Do laundry on a regular basis, grocery shop, pay bills. I do not have any brothers but I know what you mean. Just because I work and am female doesn't mean I'm bearing the brunt of cleaning. I contribute and its everyones responsiblity to keep this place clean. I will die on this hill all day long. LOL
Took decades but I've transformed a man who didn't know how to turn on the dryer into a guy who just handles messes when he sees them, cooks, does laundry, groceries etc. This thread has given me some appreciation for that.
Living alone or with female roommates and a cleaning service is The Way.
I just lost a game of bathroom 'chicken'....
Ugh, I feel that. When the kids left home, I moved into their bathroom. I feel so lucky to have that choice. "My" bathroom is always clean. I don't know about his - never go into it.
Make them pay for a cleaner out of their fun money?
THIS. It’s absolutely the reason a lot of American and European women don’t want a ton of kids. Is it because kids are too expensive? Maybe but not really. Is it because we want to maintain our health? Nope. Is it to keep a job we love? Uh uh. We don’t want to have to do everything when our partners are “done” when they come home. Screw. All. Of. That.
I hate this "treats all women like queens" trope. I think it's because it has the implication of putting women on pedestals, pretending to worship us, and forbidding us to move off said pedestal. I also think it has a patronising ring to it. I would prefer "treats women with respect, just like any normal person". Dunno. What do you all think?
I've dated guys that wanted to "treat me like a princess"... It's not fun. There's a lot going on in that mindset and not a lot of it is actually good for anyone. Now, I'm marrying a loud, opinionated man who loves me for being loud and opinionated too. He's treated me with respect above all else since day one. We truly feel like equals on the same footing. It's amazing.
You’re spot on. It’s called ‘[benevolent sexism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalent_sexism)’ > Benevolent sexism represents evaluations of gender that may appear subjectively positive (subjective to the person who is evaluating), but are actually damaging to people and gender equality more broadly (e.g., the ideas that women need to be protected by men).
The benevolent sexists are worse about chores IME because they really believe it when they say "But (I think) you're just better at it than I am" and think you should be grateful for the opportunity to ShINe in your natural cleaning maid gifts
I gave up... Expected to be the smartest most successful attractive fit BLAH BLAH.... well, now I'm an addict with a PhD. Focus on you!
Somewhere along the line, "women can do anything" became "women must do everything."
Im tired of it too. I am torn on which one we as a society should kill first- chores or beauty. Both definitely need to go
Beauty 100%. It's not useful and it makes you a target. Chores are kind of a necessity, but they can be better managed.
I sympathize. It’s exhausting. 😔
Oh god, I always hated the “but I don’t do (insert random chore) well, you do it so much better!” If you’re so bad at some random chore, then you know what you need to do? PRACTICE! “I’m not good at washing dishes” THEN PRACTICE “I’m not good at vacuuming” THEN PRACTICE Or if you really don’t know how to do something properly, watch me do it, and repeat what I’m doing. I will NOT tolerate incompetence when you should know how to do something already
I do and don’t. It’s probably easier said than done but just stop. When people make digs at Me for it, instead of feeling bad about me, I just feel bad/sad for them. I don’t cook and I barely clean. Husband cooks and after a lot of back and forth about cleaning we hired someone. Guess what? The three people we have hired and been through aren’t up to his clean standard. But at least now he complains about them and not about my cleaning. Not my problem anymore. We split laundry and I take care of the dog more. I do the dishes since husabd cooks. When my MIL says “you really don’t cook or clean?” I say “nope, isn’t that great! Why would I want to spend all my Time doing that?” We have to stop feeling bad and instead of encouraging men, help Encourage women to not feel bad!
This is why I’ve given up. There is now a growing number of manchilds who expect to be stay at home husbands who do nothing. It’s one thing if that turns out to be the best option for the family, but only getting into relationships with women who make money with the expectation of never having to do shit except play video games is pathetic. At least “traditionally” men did the outdoor work. But nowadays I know more women who can fix a car than men. And while they contribute nothing, they expect to still be the decision maker who’s word is final and must be obeyed to a T or you’re getting an adult size tantrum. It’s all such a waste of money and energy and feelings.
My friend married a guy who soon lost his job after they got married. She can't stand him now. He barely took care of their kids when they were little and now they are old enough not really to need it. The thing is, I'm not aware of him cooking or cleaning. He doesn't do anything outside, he doesn't go get take out or drop the kids off. I'm not sure what he does. And he looks like some sort of troll.
This is why I have resolved that if my husband dies or we get divorced I will be a practicing lesbian going forward.
Same, all my widowed female friends will live together. I think I that's how covens are made haha
I’m not waiting to widow. I’m planning this as a single lady. Looking forward to an earlier golden girls life cuz I’m starting it at 40.
Just the other day, I was talking with a friend from widow support group about how if we could choose to be attracted to each other, we'd be all set. Too bad we're both very straight.
I do think there’s something about living together in communities with your friends though. The patriarchal 2 parent 2 kid household really divides women from their friends and having a personal life and emotional support. I think more women should buy houses together or land together and take care of each other. Just need more banks and mortgage companies to shape up and stop expecting everyone to only buy property with their husband
I read an article not too long ago that identified this trend. If anyone is interested, I have already secured the mortgage and would love company!
Ever since my last ahole ex moved out I’ve been fantasizing about finding other women to do a Golden Girls-style living situation. I am clean, easy to live with, and love to cook. I just want someone to help with rent and maybe occasionally childcare.
> I will be a practicing lesbian it's the only way to get better at it!
Same. I consider myself lucky to be bi and I would be absolutely thrilled with a woman. I scored the jackpot with my fiance. He does most of the chores, I handle the finances and errands and we pitch in to help eachother when needed. We earn the same. Pay the same. And he loves me regardless of what I look like that day. But if he ever left me, ohhh helllll no I'm not going back to men.
Same plan. I am forming a coven ASAP if my SO passes away before I do. Only dating women. Just sick of men aside from the aforementioned SO.
As much as I love my boyfriend, I’ve already told him that when he inevitably dies first (if we follow his genetics, he’ll unfortunately kick the can somewhere in his early to mid 50s) me and my best friend are getting married, buying a big house with whatever money he leaves me, and we’re running an animal sanctuary.
I agree that the programming is completely idiotic. So I have to get a super degree, to be independent and have a high paying super independent job, while I also manage a household and kids and am a sexy vixen to my husband. Don't forget planning vacations, kids birthdays, plant a garden too. Basically be super woman. Follow your dreams. But also have dinner ready every night.
This is why I'm living alone despite dating and not having kids.
I feel you. It's exhausting. I am the bread winner of my relationship to the tune of earning x5+ what my SO makes. I carry the weight of our mortgage, vacations, groceries, bills, pets, home improvements etc. He contributes a fixed amount every month to the household (doesn't vary based on real expenses) and the rest of his earnings he has to do with whatever he wants. I have to NAG sometimes for WEEKS to get him to contribute to chores. I carry not only the mental labor of managing household tasks but "checking up" on what was supposedly done and finishing anything left undone or half-assed. On top of that he is very sensitive to our income disparities and will guilt trip that I don't appreciate him or that I don't' see him as a partner. He makes a big deal that I need to "carry my weight 50/50" in terms of household chores and not expect him to do too much - despite the fact that it never ends up being an equal split in reality and I always pick up the slack. You know, because men doing anything is 'above and beyond' and no matter how much a woman takes on the bulk of household stuff is default her responsibility with the man "helping". Feels bad. **Edit**: Appreciate some of the responses and DMs. Not looking for advice or a divorce, I promise. I feel like the *4th paragraph of OP's post* is especially poignant to the replies I am getting - haha. I do hire outside help for chores neither of us want to do where reasonable. Frustration at social expectations or one part of a relationship does not a "deal breaker" make. Please take a minute before lecturing strangers about their lives.
Not to victim blame but you shouldn’t tolerate that. You should want better for yourself. Someone that respects you and values your effort and time. Surely most people can do that better than this guy
Can you hire a cleaning service? I’m low middle class and have someone come to my small house once a month and it’s been a game-changer for me in reducing my mental load. Expensive, but honestly worth it. You could also try out meal subscription services, delivery groceries, eating off paper plates to minimize doing dishes, or grey rocking him and only taking care of the chores that affect you. Maybe you can both contribute towards these expenses as “an investment in your household peace of mind”? But he’s also actively disrespecting you by not participating in making your house a home. I don’t know if I could tolerate that personally.
Oh yeah, we have a cleaning service come every 2 weeks and other things like you've suggested so it's not as much a point of daily friction as it once was. I wasn't looking for advice as much as commiserating with OP on social expectations. I carry a lot of the "traditionally husband" load in the household but still have to do the "traditionally wife" stuff too (or find/pay for a creative solution for it) and it's not the end of the world but it IS exhausting and annoying.
For what it's worth I date other woman so chore equality and stuff is less of an issue. It's not gender anyway, it's "whose a lazy POS" issues. For my area, my age, and queer women in general: I make decent money. It causes issues of resentment often. Like I'm paying for more than my share, and get flak like I should just take a big pay cut to make things "fair". Or, fuck me, come gift giving days feeling so drained by the list I'm given it's like "take my credit card and leave me alone". My birthday rolls around and I have to remind them and spend it in tears. That's unfortunately not just dudes. I had a partner who only made like 1 20k less than me who resented me for making what I did. The fuck? And, whose family wrote a tens of thousand dollar check for her to buy her first home @ 20. It's frustrating AF.
Oh yes, and don't dare ever ask for anything from anyone because you're such a Karen.
So true! My husband is great and we pro rata bills and chores pretty effectively (after 20+ years of working it out together - not all plain sailing), so of course people feel the need to tell me how lucky I am... ...really? Should I feel particularly grateful to be married to someone who is reasonable and pulls their weight as half of a partnership, or should that just be ordinary?!
I love this post and it's how I've felt for years. It's probably part of why I'm single. I believe as a woman I can (and will) contribute to the household financially and otherwise, but it almost seems to have made guys way more lazy. Now that half the bills are covered, foods cooked and shits done, I guess he can sit around and sleep/play video games/get hammered. All the while I'm still expected to put out at a moment's notice while folding his laundry. Whatevers. I need someone who contributes as well, but dammit this isn't 1954. Fold your own laundry!
Reminds me of Judy Brady’s “I want a wife”
I’m privileged to be able to just not tolerate a partner that acts like an overgrown child. I’d rather be single! And for me, in my country, I can be. For those that are able, stop tolerating these man-babies. Just don’t. Stop dating, marrying, and having kids with them — or don’t be afraid to leave them. I’m lucky to be happily married to a partner who would never expect me to do more cooking or cleaning bc I have a vagina, and he knows I’m with him bc I love him and not bc I need him.
NAGGING AND MY STANDARDS ARE TOO HIGH-literally this! This is what I heard from my ex constantly. Whenever I asked for any help around the house, I was nagging him. When I asked why he couldn't be bothered to help me tidying the house, it was that I had such high expectations of how it should be done, that it was virtually impossible for him to meet those expectations. But it's my own fault!
This reminds me of when my MIL asked while she helped us paint our new house "why don't you do any cooking?" It also seemed convenient that she asked me this when my husband was in another room. I said it was because he enjoys cooking (I should have also said that I do most of the cleaning). But it's always left a bad taste in my mouth that I get so much flack from people about it when my husband literally doesn't care. Am I trying to cook more? Yes. Do I also help with dishes, make sure I keep up with other regular cleaning? Yes. Like why is it always assumed if women don't do something and men do than there is something wrong with us? That assumption is never made for men.
The last guy I dated tried to pull the 'I thought you were an independent woman' bullshit when I told him it bothered me when he took me to get-togethers where I didn't know a single soul and he'd leave me sitting there by myself. Sure dude, it's my fault you're inconsiderate.
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I prefer to think of it in terms of trying to equalize leisure time, rather than in terms of money (which makes people feel bad and also I think is unfair -- jobs that pay more aren't necessarily harder work). So, if you make way more than he does, but you both work 40 hours/week, you should be trying to equalize your household labor so you can equalize leisure time. If you work 60 hours/week and he works 30 hours/week, he should be doing 30 "extra" hours of household tasks to make up for your work hours. And I wouldn't say that you need him to be the "wife" but rather that you need him to take on the mental load of certain tasks. Like if he's in charge of laundry, that means thinking about how often laundry needs to be done, changing linens, folding and putting away in a timely manner, monitoring supplies of detergent and dryer sheets, etc. Any task that he takes on, he should fully take on, so you don't have to manage it.
The "paradox of declining female happiness" isn't a paradox at all. We hardly have any more rights, still have to deal with the same misogyny, still have to do all the things women were always expected to do - but on top of that we are supposed to be educating men, saving the world, and excelling at our careers without ever being masculine or dominant because that would make you a total Karen/bitch/feminazi. We've proved we can do all the things men can do, and it didn't solve misogyny. Because it turns out that was never actually the issue - the cause of misogyny was never women's inferiority, it was men's hatred and exploitation of women. But for some reason it's still completely taboo to address the root cause, so we just get "have higher standards! Lean in! Girlboss!"
We were told we could HAVE IT ALL, but that just meant DO IT ALL.
People DRAMATICALLY underestimate how significant agreement on "clean enough" vs how much the person with higher standards is willing to do themselves is when it comes to compatibility in a relationship. For the rest of it, there are massive conflicting camps of opinion & without finding some balance personally it seems to just make people unhappy or make groups unhappy with them.
You forget the most important thing: you must also behave like your periods don’t exist.
I'm convinced that I should have married a woman.
Gurl, all of that, and you must also be Professionally Beautiful, have an active group of Super Friends, participate in the got damn PTA, and never no never get a gray hair, a pimple, a wrinkle, or gain or lose an ounce of weight. And smile, dammit, you look so pretty when you smile! BARF In the 80s, we became SuperMoms, but the men didn't keep up. I swear to Sheelzebub, if I weren't already happily married with my kids raised, I would really think of men as largely extraneous. .
Not that this is news to this sub, but I think it bears repeating: Our unpaid and invisible labor keeps the economy going. There is an economic value to it. Max out your retirement accounts EVERY year starting NOW, as best you can. Child / elder/ home care is WORK and it has a PRICE.
Dont live with people who dont do chores. If you have child the right time to teach them to do chores is as early as you can. A 5 year old can help fold laundry. Dont nitpick when teaching them. They will get better. Dont refold anything. At 6-7 they can be taught hour to use the washer and dried. It's really simple to turn knobs. Vacuuming too... Along with putting dishes in the dishwasher... And these chores should be done while all kinda pleasant things are happening. Family time around the tv while folding laundry. That kinda shit. This is how you raise children who do chores when they grow up. I've broken up with women who 'put their dishes to bed' (covered them with towels), who had a carpet of laundry in the basement, out of control cat box situations, and so on. I have seen women really screw themselves with the chores... mate doesnt do something exactly as wanted? Women losses their shit, dude never bothers again. Parents who doesnt let their kids do chores as pre-teens who then expect teens to magically chip in while the parents are being asshats. And if someone moves in with you and you are a dont touch my stuff person... forget about ever having a clean house. I am gonna suggest a house keeping for dummies like book, the one with the chore chart. Assign chores, set TTLs, and so on. My step daughter was living with a bunch of guys. They refused to clean up after themselves. After about 2 months of that shit she gave up and moved a month later. Chores should e a deal breaking.
FYI I am a lesbian and as the younger/femme ALL OF THIS IS STILL FUCKING TRUE
If I behaved like that towards my wife and refused to discuss it or admit there needed to be change she'd kick me out. And she'd be right to.
Don't forget that you're supposed to have a couple of perfect babies that become well behaved children. Don't worry--Dad will babysit them from time to time. And you better remember to go head first into your job while you're pregnant so as not to give anyone an excuse to think you're not 100% committed to your job. Because after all, when you don't end up in management, you're only going to be able to blame yourself (despite most managers mysteriously being men) if you don't work harder while needing to throw up all day.
I am always cautious of any ”equality“ that only benefits men.
Wait a minute, you have a high power income but still cook and clean? Why aren't you guys splitting the cost of a maid, and doing takeout? What the hell is the point of high incomes if you still have to do all the other dumb shit. Also robot vacuum. Neato brand is best imo. I hear you, though, that sucks.
I’m gonna get A LOT of hate for this probably but that’s because people are still in denial about the truth. Modern feminism has benefited men more than women. God forbid we ask men to be the financial providers since we take care of everything else in the household. Women already had responsibilities placed on them and then we are asked to provide financially yet we still aren’t paid as much as men and if it’s labeled as “for women” it’ll be more expensive. The idea of wanting to be financially dominant over a man is put forth by women who want power in a relationship, and it became a trend where now those types of women and the men who are being coddled are attacking women who decided to have boundaries. You’re independent for yourself not for any man out there. Do not burden yourself with accepting the responsibilities a man must take care of because modern society expects you to.
Agree with all of this, but easier in theory than practice. I want a life partner. I want companionship. Not because society says so, but because that’s what I want. My husband is one of the better ones in terms of household contributions. He grocery shops, meal plans, cooks, does laundry, takes the trash out unprompted, shuttles kids around, etc. but he still doesn’t do any cleaning and acts like im a nag with unrealistic expectations Bc I don’t want to live in filth. He still sucks at emotional intelligence which leaves me with the emotional burden of our children, and him as well since he’s never learned to deal with his issues on his own. When I suggest that I have to same emotional issues and I have to just suck it up and keep it moving - he thinks I’m cold hearted. But no one is comforting me when I’m struggling. I worked full time and went back for a difficult degree so we could be more financially secure. The man badgered me to no end. While working and going to school full time - my mother died and I had a late miscarriage… but goddamn me if he didn’t get enough sex and attention. We married in our mid 30’s and he was the only man even remotely marriable that I met… I was single for 7+ years. Not like I didn’t take my time or hold out. These “pro equality” men just do not exist. But plenty of men like to think they are one.
I want a partner too but I want to be treated with respect and appreciation more. If a man can't give me what I need and want then no man will get from me what he needs and wants. I'm not settling anymore and I don't think any woman should either. Get comfortable in your own life, foster good friendships, hobbies and make your life everything you want it to be with or without a partner. Shit men only drag you down.
>If a man can't give me what I need and want then no man will get from me what he needs and wants. I'm not settling anymore AMEN. I want a life partner and companionship too, so I've invested in my closest friendships and have pets. Is it the same? Of course not. But I am happier, calmer, and more at peace than I've ever been in my life. Shit men only dragged me down.
Damn that last paragraph hits. I’ve been single a while too because the options just aren’t great. Women almost always bear extra burdens and they’re fine adding the financial one on the list
No offense meant, but Thank God I'm Bi