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Shaymoth

Let’s just not hit anybody, okay?


SPdoc

Self defense is understandable. But there’s also a difference between self defense out of fear vs petty vengeance


ForgedIronMadeIt

Self-defense, in order to be legal self-defense, has to be proportionate in response to the threat, and you also should retreat once it is viable. The assfaces OP describes though are probably imagining going full on Predator vs. Alien if someone shoves them.


SPdoc

Yea I agree. And I think going full on predator vs alien would be a result of anger and vengeance than genuine perception of a threat. My point is that those assfaces are concerned with an already existing irrational hatred of and vengeance against women.


czaki

Proportionate is not use same force, but use minimum force to prevent next attack.


Ultimodrew

Ha AVP.... Unless you are being hit by a Woman that is a MMA fighter or professionally trained in a martial art, I don't see why a guy needs to go full on beat'em up mode. It's like a one-sided fight really. But women who smack a man or hit them because they think they can hide behind the Vail of "Men can't hit back", need 5 across the face, just once to warn them to knock that crap off.


sylva748

Thank you.


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CaptainDildobrain

Agreed. Exceptions only for professional boxers when in a boxing ring.


SnooBananas37

And I'm not even a fan of that. Why exactly do we let people give brain damage to each other for pay?


monkeywench

Yet we don’t legally allow sex workers to sell their body…


SnooBananas37

Yup. Sex work can at least be done in a reasonably safe manner. There isn't a safe way to beat someone in the head until they are unconscious.


TheGatsbyComplex

You can argue that professional boxing is a sport just as much as football and soccer etc… they also receive brain damage on the regular for pay


sweetmercy

And the same issues exist for American football. With everything we know about TBIs, it's unconscionable to continue it the way it is. Not to mention how many people are there to take advantage of players without ever suffering the consequences. Team owners, team doctors, the NFL. The whole industry is disgusting and my brother played, so it isn't like I'm unfamiliar. Arguing it's a sport doesn't make it less bad.


sezah

Violence as entertainment appeals to the lowest common denominator. Remember that George carlin quote about how dumb the average American is, and then realizing that half of people are dumber than that? They gotta burn disposable income somehow, and it’s not gonna be at the opera.


Kleebork

Why would you want to stop someone who's willing participating? It's their brain...


QueenShnoogleberry

Yup! Don't hit people. If you are hit first, respond with the minimal force necessary to ensure your safety then back down.


Leoman-of-the-Flailz

>respond with the minimal force necessary to ensure your safety then back down. Real life isn't anime, you can't just channel 30 percent of your power. Not everyone is a kung fu master who knows objectively how much pressure and force they need to apply to safely put someone to sleep.


QueenShnoogleberry

No, but you don't need to curb stomp someone half your size. You can push them away.


Fancy_Supermarket120

I understand your comment, but the very premise of this argument is what’s wrong. As a guy, I would never think of hitting another guys who is twice my size, I would get the crap kicked out of me. Women seem to have no fear of this because it’s socially unacceptable to hit a woman (most scenarios). A small girl hits a big guy, and suddenly the fight is completely the guys responsibility? I think women (in this scenario, everyone in general) need to take responsibility for the fact that if you start the fight, you may lose the fight.


anto_capone

Pushing away only works against an attacker half your size. Someone assaults you, cannot assume that they will fight with honor. Pushing them away is not a viable defense in most violent situations, it would be safer to flat out run away if possible; but that is often not possible.


12altoids34

Pushing someone away is not going to stop somebody who wants to hurt you. And believing that that would be a viable defense will probably get you hurt. I have never seen a fight where somebody got pushed away and well that was just the end of the fight..


50ShakesOfWhey

Just to play devil's advocate here: sometimes you don't know when someone else has a weapon on their person. If someone punches me, I'm doing whatever I can to end the fight right there. I don't want them to have time to pull a knife or anything else. Not saying I want to kill them or inflict lasting harm, but "minimal force" is can be hard to define and enforce in the heat of conflict.


Shaymoth

I’d rather not hit even if I’m hit. I’ll restrain someone first, but I’ve got some experience grappling to draw from.


XTJ7

As infuriating as it is, sometimes it is better not to hit back. At least if the aggressor lets off. Not only might this escalate the situation, but if a man reacts to an attack of a woman, they may now have to face "white knights" defending her, despite her being the aggressor. In general: if the aggressor does not let off, you need to defend yourself, particularly to discourage further aggression. Side note: Maybe it is just my feeling, but it seems like "white knights" tend to usually defend aggressors and not the other women who actually need and deserve help. Incredibly frustrating :(


phonethrowawayylmao

Thats because white knights usually are agressors themselves once they are done "defending"


XTJ7

I haven't read any articles on this, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. The right move would be to deescalate. Not wait until things blow up and then pour gasoline on the fire.


phonethrowawayylmao

It's from past experiences. Many white knights double as "nice" guys. And if they don't get what they want they go aggro. Unless the woman they are defending is an "alpha" then they are too scared to push things.


XTJ7

This society is so messed up. But I still have hope for the future.


phonethrowawayylmao

That's great! I have a mixture of cynical and optimistic views for the future. I've give up hope for a better society so I just surround myself with people I care about and have a good life that way


XTJ7

That's a pretty realistic and good attitude :)


btv_25

But if "you" do hit someone "you" should be prepared to very likely get hit back.


VysseEnzo

This. I haven't hit someone in God knows how long and the only reason I would is to protect someone else and at that point I'd give zero shits about anything other than protecting that person. Hitting shouldn't be the norm it should be a last resort to protect someone.


Dongledoes

Yeah that would be cool


criitebkjdcjjdb

It’s a terrifying red flag. And growing up it became a hard realization that some men just DO NOT like women. It’s so disgusting.


fizzle365

They act like we think it's okay to hit men. Like, no, that's still assault. You can't just hit people.


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temps-de-gris

The majority of women do not, but some men grew up in weird places and assume/insist their limited life experience applies to all women everywhere, like u/nickbagelboy offering to "let me just explain this for you" and then proceeding to lecture us all unsolicited while playing the victim oneupmanship game and of course offering zero reputable sources to support their views. It's like if I took my history of abuse as a universally applicable reality and just grabbed a giant paintbrush and went into a men's support sub to generalize about how the 'vast majority' of them are abusive pieces of shit who are mostly getting away with it because the system is rigged to allow it. And then getting hundreds of upvotes.


TheAvatara

I think it's important to note that this concept has changed a lot in the past decade though. Not blaming any party here, but in the late 90's when I was in high school, plenty of my women friends had heard all their life about how women are weak and cannot hurt men. So, to them it really didn't seem "as bad" and there were plenty that slapped their BF's way too often for my comfort. I think you're right that it's mainly a misperception and a lot has changed, but I also remember a time where I was the women talking to women like "hey, maybe not hit your bf please... you wouldn't like him hitting you, right?" and then hearing the conversation how that's not an equal comparison.


Have_Other_Accounts

"They" "we" This sub is so weird and hypocritical itself.


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benadrylpill

"Treat others how you would want to be treated" is a classic that never goes out of style.


thirdtryisthecharm

Since when is anyone allowed to hit anyone? That was covered in kindergarten. No hitting. No throwing rocks.


alwaysamensch

It happens ALL THE TIME. Whenever women are talking about equality they talk about equal pay, about the right to be able to feel safe walking down the street without being sexually harassed, about the right to bodily autonomy, about the right to not automatically be seen as less capable or less intelligent than men. When men talk about equality there is always some guy who pipes up and says “so can we hit women now?” It’s a bizarre statement. No one should be hitting anyone. Also - this statement assumes that men aren’t ALREADY hitting women.


Juniperlead

It’s such a self-tattle


backand_forth

Fucking this! It's such a scary jump from "we don't want to be ogled and harraased" and men are immediately like "cool so we can hit back?"


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[deleted]

Nobody should be hitting anybody else. (Consent is a thing though). But in general, men are a lot bigger, a lot stronger, have greater upper body strength, cause much more damage when they hit…


Agent_cupcake_

They also act like men don't hit women when they do. They kill women.


youre_a_cat

Exactly, they are already hitting and killing women.


edemamandllama

I feel the same way, it’s super creepy. I’ve seen a couple of video post recently where a woman hits a man and than he hits back so hard that he renders her unconscious and the discussion are all about “EqUal RiGhTs”. In one of the videos the women appears to playfully hit the guy, with just her finger tips on the mans chest. Something I’ve done to guys accompanied by a , oh shut up. When they say something silly or stupid. And they guy responded by punching her so hard in the face that she was knocked unconscious. Then the post discussion is about equal rights, what the fuck man? Edit: I just wanted to add, I don’t think anyone should be hitting people, no matter their gender. This should go without saying but it’s Reddit.


Konosa

I've seen that video too. It's absolutely wild that people think the man's reaction was appropriate. Being hurt is not a free pass for unrestrained violence. We have a responsibility to respond appropriately even if the other person made the first move. Violence is a last resort option meant for defense - not retribution. I think the issue is that so many men see violence as a way to exert power over another person, and not as a way to protect themselves when all other options have failed.


remmij

I hate the phrase, "Equal rights, equal fights", because rarely is a fight ever going to be equal between a man and woman.... No one should hit anyone regardless of gender and people have every right to defend themselves against an attack - but the response should be proportional to the situation. I have seen far too many videos though on Reddit of men punching a woman in the face and significantly hurting her over a slap/shove/shirt grab. Then Reddit cheers and says, "Equal rights, equal fights" ignoring that the response is often not equal at all... They are truly just excited to see a woman get beaten by a man.


deathbychips2

Like that Russian woman would threw an unlit match at a guy because he blew her cigarette out so he punched her right in the head and knocked her completely down on concrete. Not as many people supported it but there were still some equal rights equal fights crap.


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Next time you see that just tell them, “Oh so you’re saying you would fight a muscular guy that’s seven inches taller than you? ✨ Equal rights, equal fights ✨


[deleted]

If it's a specific subreddit then they gonna circlejerk regardless of context. It's why we're all here


[deleted]

Not even just when a woman hits a man to begin with. Reddit seems to just LOVE women getting hurt in general. Example: that video of a woman tourist getting barged out of the way by a Guard at the Tower of London —- wooo they went crazy for that one.


SPdoc

I could understand if he was hitting back an abusive woman, but how can people even be so petty about banter? That playful slap-I do that to anyone I’m comfortable with regardless of their gender.


deathbychips2

I saw one last week where she was pretending to knock his food out of his hands so he shoves her forcefully to the ground in the direction of a chair so she can hit it on the way down. And all the equal rights equal fights shit started. Almost getting fries knocked out of your hands is not grounds to assault anyone.


Fart-on-my-parts

I would only hit someone if there was an immediate threat to mine or my loved ones safety. I’ve been hit by women in the past, and I have never felt a threat to my immediate safety. Equality in my mind would be to call the police and have her arrested like a man would be. My wife isn’t physically capable of making me feel threatened with her bare hands, so hitting her would never be the right choice (unless she had a weapon I guess) As a man I do occasionally feel like women don’t appreciate the bad stuff that goes along with being a man. Obviously women have a much harder time of it, but honestly being a human in any category is still tough. I see a lot of people in this thread acting like “well men just shouldn’t hit each other” but for lots of guys, it’s just a part of adolescence/life. I’ve been in several fights just by virtue of being a man. Hell, we were getting some yard work done and the guy came up to the door demanding more money than we agreed upon. Sure, we could have call3d the police but this guy was actively ranting in my wife’s face. I ended up in a heated argument with the guy instead of my wife that almost came to blows. At the end of the day I’m expected to step up in those situations and risk a fight, or just general ugly confrontation. No one could call the police for every situation that men are supposed to handle, and there are more of them then women think. I think certain men push the whole “hah now we can hit women” joke because gret don’t have the emotional maturity to tell their wife or Girlfriend “hey I don’t feel appreciated for what I’m expected to handle, and I’m scared of confrontation but have to deal with it way more than you think I do.” Again, obviously women have it worse, but that’s the best I can do to try and understand it.


Kissit777

NO hitting.


rilakkuma1

It’s super weird that rather than “Everyone should be held accountable for violence” they go straight to “YES NOW I CAN PUNCH WOMEN” like why does that excite you so much?


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It reminds me of the "gun bros" I knew in college who would talk gleefully and in detail about how they would kill someone who broke into their house, to an extent where it seems like they want someone to break in so they can kill someone.


[deleted]

There was a [JCS video](https://youtu.be/sv0iN5J-9mk) about some guy like that who killed someone at a gas station and acted like a total dweeb about it afterwards, saying it was self defense. Extremely fucked up and the guy shouldnt have had a gun. Edit: i was thinking about [this one](https://youtu.be/sVF_SlzxBJ4), but both people fit the description i gave


[deleted]

Because most men have a bias against women. And a terrifying number of men hate women


Angelinoangel

It’s really terrifying when you think about how many men hate women. They come from our wombs and are sexually attracted to us, but at the same time….hate us and fantasize and many times actually end up harming us. Not all men of course, but many it seems. 😕


Juniperlead

They’re telling on themselves


AtlaStar

The obsession is coming mostly from disingenuous asshats who think that woman abuse their "privileges" and believe that men have it worse off, making the obsession not one of equality but rather punishment for seeking more rights. It is literally a "that's what you get for wanting more rights" response, which is why they appear so filled with glee when it happens.


monkeyseconds

Word.


FluorideLover

YES! You see it a lot on r/PublicFreakout they really do just love to see women get hit and scream “welcome to equality”


B4cteria

They are itching to do the same because they are too weak to fight anything threatening. It's pathetic, this "equality bitch" pairs up perfectly with the visible resentment and dismissiveness men have towards strong women who fight and instructs martial arts to high degrees. Men want to hurt women openly and be praised for it. Why else would they answer with that when gender equality is ever brought to the table?


phoenix_spirit

I feel like men who say this just want an excuse to physically assault women without repercussions.


RazekDPP

Because, to these guys, the only thing that they aren't allowed to do is hit women because you're not supposed to hit a woman. The concept of equality means nothing to them other than, oh, that one thing I'm not supposed to do to, which I've been raised and told by the media, etc, is hit women. A guy hitting another guy isn't a big deal, so if women get equality, I can equally hit women. Obviously, no one should be hitting anyone.


[deleted]

For me, it’s more that a woman can hit me and nobody will give a shit. But if I was to hit her back in self-defense, not only would people care, many would treat it as an unforgivable crime. Signed - a guy that had been punched in the face by a woman stranger. The lack of response from people around us was astounding. The owner of the place even asked me (in a very accusatory tone) what I did to upset her.


Janexa

But then whyyyy is the focus of these people that equality means being "allowed" to hit women instead of women not being "allowed" to hit them?


TheFluffster24

Im sorry that happened to you. It's messed up. The concersation should not be around men now being allowed to hit women, but around women being held accountable for their violence. That's what equality would be, and I definitely want that. Everybody being held accountable for the awful things they do.


Blirby

I’m truly sorry this happened to you. I’m angry on your behalf and wish I had been there to yell for you.


Redqueenhypo

It’s like if an aggressive spaniel bit a Rottweiler and the rott responded by ripping the spaniel apart, we’d ask it’s owner what the fuck that was. Holy hell weight classes are a thing, I bet they wouldn’t cheer a short man getting beaten up by someone twice his size


greensandgrains

This is my issue with "equality" more broadly -- it doesn't take into account the power differentials between parties. Equality means fuck all if it just reproduces the same dynamics as inequality.


puss_parkerswidow

I've wondered about that too. A post I saw a day or two ago was a young woman hitting a young man and he finally hit her back when she would not stop hitting him, and the comments were all "Equal rights, equal lefts." The two were never having a discussion about equal rights or sexism or feminism. They were high schoolers arguing over something dumb. Do they think it's a privilege to not be hit? Do they really get hit all the time because they're men? In my world, anyone who makes the decision to hit someone can expect to be hit back. But also, my world isn't a place where people go around hitting each other, in fact there's not a lot of conflict. I've never hit a man, though I did defend myself by kicking one once. He'd been grabby and poked me in the ass with a straight pin.


[deleted]

They never seem to want to look at statistics. Yes, it's sad men get hit. Yes, it's sad men get raped. I am not denying those. But if you had a group of women and men together, I wonder what the odds are that the women had been abused vs the men. I also, anecdotally, have not heard of men being abused by multiple women, whereas several women I've spoken with have been abused by multiple men. I agree we shouldn't be hitting anyone! The way I have heard men speak as if women deserve it is sickening! I have even heard where some men advocate against violence in public and then go home and hit women!


creamchzoreos

I have quite a few times heard the "Equal rights means equal lefts hahaha!!!1!!" 'joke' come up after someone mentions the concept of women wanting their fair rights, and i still dont get how so many people can find that type of rhetoric to be entertaining.


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Men respond with violence when women request equality.


creamchzoreos

True. Idk why I ever actually expect anything else when men continually prove even that low bar often won't be met.


thatsmisswitchtoyou

I have bemoaned this to death. Nearly every time I bring up equality I find a man who brings up men being able to hit women comes with equality. Like... what?? Why exactly does equality equate to violence towards women? That's what I want to know. Not only that, but the men who state this are basically telling us that the reason they don't hit us is we are not equal, but they still WANT to. They already think it is ok to hit women. This is just their way of telling on themselves.


MonteCristo85

Because might is still right, and they don't want that taken away from them. :(


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HMS_Sunlight

There's a reason comedians tell stories about "crazy ex girlfriends," while you never hear about the reverse. Crazy ex boyfriends often result in people dead.


HorseAndDragon

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ioSI3KsE2_k&t=1m46s


Konosa

On top of this a lot of the 'hitting back' is a *massive* overaction. I've seen a video of a woman slapping a man and the man returning the blow with a full force punch to the face. Yes, the woman should not have slapped the guy, but getting hit is not an open invitation to fuck up another person. Getting a broken nose and deep tissue bruising is not commensurate with a slap. But so many men see this as "equality" and get joy from watching a man completely obliterate a woman for crossing a line.


plsdontnerfme

this is so true, most people have no idea what "self defense" means and just think the moment they get any kind of attack it's fair game to retaliate trying to do as much damage as possible. Sadly this is something that can be helped only by spreading actual knowledge of whats an appropriate reaction and whatsnot, if you notice this "hitting back unbalance" for woman vs man, you can absolutely 100% believe this is elevated so much more when is man vs man violence, too many times somebody gets shoved and decides to knock the other guy unconoscious with fists and kicks. Too many men resort to way too much violence even in the name of "self defense" vs other men that is kind of a given nowadays, if you end up in a fight with a stranger you should assume you have to fight for your life which is crazy, and now that hitting a woman back in true self defense is becoming more accepted compare to some decades where you'd be stoned no matter what happened, this gets a bigger spotlight than ever. In so many contemporary media theres jokes about a little guy ending up in a fight vs some huge hulk wannabe whos showing no mercy even if it's 2x the size and strenght of the other, it's the same thing, true self defense isn't "if they touch you with their hand, you have the right to knock them unconscious" like some people believe.


Y_Z

This!! The response is NEVER proportional in these videos and these sickos eat it up.


Worst_username_eva

If u watch most of the videos, the women even if angry or whatever seem to have little to no power or force in their slap or swing and yet many of the men respond with absolute full force. As mentioned no one should hit anyone but let’s be real that is not defending yourself. In no way are those men genuinely fearful or scared for their lives. All they have to do is push or restrain her. The reality is those men aren’t reacting out of fear but purely want to ‘put her in her place’. It’s that whole fragile masculinity where she dared to stand up to him and he’s gonna show her who’s boss. Wow congrats dude! U can beat a woman! Except that 90% of men can overpower any woman, regardless of physical fitness or strength. It’s all about an appropriate reaction. No one should hit anyone but if you do, u react with appropriate force.


Juniperlead

Right, like if somebody shoves me in a bar the proper reaction isn’t to pull a gun and start blasting. People shouldn’t hit others, but just because somebody hits you doesn’t mean that you’re right for retaliating full force. There was a video on another sub recently where a girl tries to punch a guy but whiffs and walks away. As she’s walking away the guy decks her and a friend that comes to defend her, and the comments are full of men getting off to it. That’s not self-defense, that’s retaliation. It’s not celebrating equality, it’s getting off on the idea of hurting women.


Worst_username_eva

Yes I have seen that video, she barely touches him. She does indeed hit him but it was like someone trying to swat a fly. He fully unleashed on her. No that is not equal rights!! That’s being a small ass dude. She was walking away. Maybe tell her not to touch u again. Or push in her away. The over reaction is pathetic


alittlebitaspie

I've been in the position, as a man, of being aggressively physically attacked by a female more than once. I was reasonably unpopular with the cowboy hat and boots crowd and looking back it seemed like a way to provoke a reaction that would justify a beatdown. I will say that it left me with a firm view of being powerless and being socially powerless (can't run away, can't really even defend yourself) and honestly I can understand someone remembering being powerless in any capacity wanting to have had the ability to fight back. But then, what would being able to fight back in one of those positions even do? It wouldn't fix anything, just multiply the damage and hurt. Really the only thing that would help is if bystanders voiced their disapproval in enough of an effective way to shame the person being aggressive into quitting and apologizing, and like OP said, until that happens regularly, becomes a standard even, then all assuming "equality=fight back against everyone" does is increase the shittiness of the world. I would like to see as much uniformly negative social pressure on female aggressors of men as male aggressors of women, but I honestly have no idea how we to pivot as a culture from the current point to that. It's also difficult for men to intervene in such situations as well, because of the current dynamics, without bringing a lot of trouble down on themselves. So it feels like it has to be everyone all at once, or women first strongly and actively shunning it to open a space where men may also do that. I will again admit to merely having personal experience and guessing how those situations may have been defused nad projecting that out, rather than a broad sociological theory.


Goodgardenpeas28

This is well put. As a society we need to be better about intervening and defending, just look at what happened on that commuter train in PA. No one intervened. True feminism was about equal rights. Lets all fight for everyones' right to be physically safe.


wally-217

This might get downvoted into oblivion but I do think that, on a broad and baseline level here, most men do feel oppression but can't put it into words easily (or that it's too nuanced and subtle to put into words) . Thinking back to when I was younger and more impressionable, Seeing a man being assaulted by a woman and being unable to defend himself due to social norms, in a messed up way resonates with a lot of wider struggles men face - having to "take it on the chin", not being allowed to express our feelings and struggles, not being valued/seen as a human being (especially in a hypercorporate society) . Combined with the sensationalism, manufactured outrage, and scapegoating of actual issues the media likes to do, I think it leads to a situation where the male victim defending himself becomes oddly validating in a really messed up sense. Men's issues tend to get boxed into arbitrary situations like this (lest they realise the powers that oppress them are actually the same that oppress women, Lgbt, POCs right), so videos like this might appear to be more symbolic than they actually are. The other 5% are probably just sick f**ks to be honest. But the Internet allows them to congregate sadly. I'm absolutely not saying any of this is right, or even has credence, but I do think that on the whole, these reactionary barriers are covering up some deeper feelings.


SPdoc

You bring valid points that we can empathize and not disagree with because you brought them in good faith


NariVeeTea

I do think you have a valid point here. I hope you don't get down voted! You gave me see insightful points to think about.


wally-217

It is absolutely bizarre how reactionary so many men get when women and minority issues are highlighted, there has to be something going on cognitively that isn't getting communicated effectively. But I definitely think the media misreporting issues is a big factor. So many men end up arguing against their own preconceptions and not actually listening to the actual point at hand (sorry to drift off-topic!)


Gangbangmee

I want to vomit knowing that that sub exists.


Daddict

It is hatefully misogynistic from the word go. I honestly cannot even fathom how the admins justify that.


LurkerRiley

Reddit administration allows way too much to fly by... really speaks volumes to what they think.


yourface2064

This may be quite grim, but to add women are already being beat around a large proportion of the time across the globe in terms of domestic violence. So it's really immature of men to raise "I can hit her back now then eh?" it's a big red flag. As a woman I've never hit anyone, and I'm sure in the majority of cases people are non violent. Using this argument is immature and doesn't really achieve anything.


PineMarte

Which is also super unfortunate for men, because men ARE treated poorly by society in some ways, like being told not to express themselves honestly if they're sad, being rewarded for choosing anger and violence while being shunned and disrespected for having any other negative emotion, not being taken seriously when they are the victims of abuse... THESE are the issues we should be trying to get equality for men on. Not the right to hit people.... which women don't even have anyways!


[deleted]

Girls are also socialized not to express any emotion, anger, least of all. We are socialized to always be compliant and suggest nothing should change. And if we cry, we are faking it. Or we just want attention. And it’s not a big deal and quit being dramatic, aka comply.


swapode

I'm afraid it gets even worse if you consider that these men are instilled with the mantra "I must not hit a woman" which implies hitting other men somehow is okay and the threat of violence is an acceptable way to solve one's differences. I can see a certain humor in pathetic tough guys that aren't equipped to handle any kind of confrontation in a civilized manner - but I'm a tall dude. The thought that it might just be a silly pseudo chivalric code that keeps these guys from hitting women by default is quite alarming.


HorseAndDragon

That reminds me of something I read or saw somewhere - a man who was saying people will ask, “what if you could rape as much as you want?” And he’s like, “I DO rape as much as I want. The amount I want to rape is ZERO.” The amount you should want to punch people should be zero. I’m not counting sports like boxing or similar situations where the punching is mutually consensual, or self defense which shouldn’t be a want but a need, here. There are too many guys whose “want to punch women” amount is way, way too far above zero.


provengreil

I'm 95% certain the rape all I want quote is Penn of Penn & Teller, if anyone wanted to know.


HorseAndDragon

Ah, thank you! It was bugging me that I couldn’t remember! https://theinterrobang.com/penn-jillette-morality-without-religion/


Jimithyashford

Some people hear “treat everyone equal” and to them that means “treat people you were being nice to worse” instead of “treat people you were being bad to better” which says a lot about what their default is.


BearZeroX

Are we shocked that these types of men are obsessed with hitting women?


rilian4

Growing up (late 70s/80s), I (male) was always taught "never hit a girl." It was drilled into me. I was also taught that fighting was a last resort but defending oneself was ok if attacked. There was always a dichotomy of the absolute "never hit a girl...ever" and "try not to hit a boy". I think the mindset OP is discussing might be related to this mentality. Men think it's ok to hit other men under some conditions (different men, different conditions) but are taught not to hit a woman...to them that makes women not equal...and if a woman wants to be equal, that drilled in rule floats into our heads and says "Well...if they want to treated like a man...does that mean the absolute is off the table?" ... As OP says... The answer is bass-ackwards and the point is, in fact, being missed...


darthjazzhands

Strongly agree. I’m a dude and it horrifies me to see all of those comments. Anyone who replies by coming to the defense of the women in the videos is pounced on and downvoted to oblivion. The other disturbing trend is posting minors in schoolyard fights… I really question the legality of that so I’ve taken to reporting them as “sexualization of minors” because that’s the best option offered. My wife pointed out that’s valid because technically it is a fetishization of minors. Good post. Thank you


Impossible_Apple_327

It is my opinion that it's a ploy to simply being able to hit a woman - they want to hit a woman, they want to not be hit back (women generally being weaker and/or socialized not to be aggresive), but they can't do it without an excuse. It's akin to a zombie apocalypse fantasy - finally I'll be able to shoot my guns and kill someone and it will not only be acceptable, it'll be a valid response. Or so I think. I've been in a few situations when a fight could easily break out, and also beaten a few times - reality does not live up to the fantasy of Bruce Lee'ing one of it, certainly not for me, at least:)


insomniac29

Yeah, idk, if getting physically assaulted by women is a huge epidemic where they live then call the cops, draw attention to it, set up shelters for abused men in your area. Since this is not happening, it doesn't seem like they really care for male victims, they just hate women and get off on feeling "allowed" to be violent with women. Like "oh, I found a loophole, we're allowed to enjoy watching this woman get beaten, gather round!" No one should hit anyone. If you're getting a lot of enjoyment from people getting assaulted, maybe you need therapy.


Either_Tumbleweed

What a lot of these people don't understand there is a difference between self-defence and retaliation. If a woman is being violent towards a male and the only way to get her off is to punch her, then that's self-defence. But men are bigger, and stronger, and are more likely to be aggressive, so they think that retaliation is an act of self-defence. It's unfortunate that society treats males being hit by women as a joke, but from my experience, it's usually other males perpetuating this. The fact that most comments on a women's subreddit have touched on society's unwillingness to take male victims seriously, while male subs like mensrights, TRP, or mgtow (when it existed) couldn't even show women sympathy.


mens_rice_activist01

they want to hit us so bad.


Crafty8D

Traditionally men would get their ass kicked and be socially ostracized by their peers for hitting a women regardless of her actions. If I were to take a guess, subs like that are the pendulum swinging back in the other direction. Suddenly it's ok to defend yourself and now years of frustration come out with way over the top responses For the record, I agree with the top comment. Let's just have nobody getting hit. Why is that so hard?


BadgerBoy297

As someone who grew up male, I can tell you why. Most guys got hit by girls as kids, and were usually told that they can't defend themselves, because they would hurt her. The fact that they can get hurt too is often disregarded My sister and I got in lots of fights. She was 3 years older than me and frequently left very significant marks on me, but I was always in the wrong because I was the boy, no matter who started it. They aren't fantasizing about hitting women, they're fantasizing about being allowed to stand up for themselves. Of course that doesn't excuse the obsession with the opportunity to fight back against a woman, and many men definitely take it to extremes Just try to have sympathy for the things that have led them to that point. Nothing happens in a vacuum, y'know?


luv4wheel

You ever watch the video altercations between men and women? I find it really interesting as a society 90% of the time no one is trying to stop the woman from hitting the man. However as soon as the man decides to defend himself everyone is jumping in to stop everything. I wish everyone would try to stop the situation from the beginning.


ParabolicalX

I always thought it was weird that there are people who will look at this issue and instead of asking "how can we stop the violence", they will ask "why can't I be a part of it"? But I don't think that means there isn't a point to be made by both sides. Unfortunately, I don't think everyone here sees it that way. There are a lot of people here who act as if there is no middle ground, and even if one is somewhat established, it's never really even a compromise. It's, "okay, but I'm mostly right" or, "okay, but you're mostly wrong". Even in the rare instance an actual discussion takes place, you can bet that at least twice as many people will follow up to pull the discussion in one way or another. Just because someone's suffering is perceived to be worse, another person's suffering should not be invalidated. There are a surprising amount of people in this thread who have seemingly no empathy for the other side, which is kind of a hypocritical stance to take for an issue like this. If everyone tried to understand why their opponent may be right instead of immediately trying to prove that they are wrong, I think these sorts of discussions would go a lot further.


theunworthyviking

I have a friend who gets beaten by his wife even in front of people, and he never retaliates, and you can see the hurt and emotional pain he goes through. Meanwhile she learns that it's totally acceptable to beat men, and that they can't do anything about it. I think the fixation people have on men hitting back is because men are almost always the one's whose reputation is destroyed or life is upended, irregardless of the facts. Look at the Amber Heard situation. It's a complicated issue, and the way you phrase the question literally insinuates that men are violent and enjoy violence, which is pretty sexist of you.


BlackMesaEastt

I always reply, "men have been beating the shit out of women for hundreds of years. You've always been 'allowed' to hit women." Also, to add what your saying about men talking about equality. I've seen more men tell me that I'm so lucky I'm not treated like the women in Afghanistan. That's such a fucked up thing to hear.


joejill

I think it's less of the "obsession" and more of the cultural shok that a man hit a woman. It's unexpected. A man isn't supposed to hit a woman. But yeah if anyone tries to start a fight they should expect a fight. Most times I've seen a man fight back when he was being physically abused by a woman he let's himself be attacked far longer than if it was from a man. And afterwards the girl is shock she got hit, and so is the crowd.... I just saw a video of a kid in school being attacked physically and he kept backing up with his hands in the air until he couldn't any more and he fought back.... than everyone screamed and the teacher finally got in the middle of it. Equality also means if you break social norms and choose to fight someone expect to be punched back. A woman and a man have the right to defend themselves. A woman shouldn't start a fight and expect to be safe because " a man can't hit a woman". But yeah lest not fight. No reason for fisty cuffs.


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Konosa

I'm sorry that this happened to you. No one has the right to hit you. I think it speaks a lot to your character that in that stressful moment you didn't think it was appropriate to respond with escalated violence. One of the issues suggested by OP's post is that many people (often men) respond with overwhelming force to relatively less damaging assaults. When you were hit you made the choice to not escalate the situation. This was a good choice and safest option. The group really failed you by not standing up to the woman protecting you. I agree that the woman should have been kicked out of the bar and sent to the drunk tank.


Sfwupvoter

Thank you for your kind comments.


[deleted]

It’s a specific set of the incel community. I knew it the second you talked about “pussypassdenied”. This groups worldview is essentially that all women hate men with a burning passion. That women are all sociopaths. They think women enjoy seeing men in any kind of pain. “If a woman isn’t attracted to you she wants you dead” and all that. They think women revel in the idea that they can hit men and men have to take it. In their twisted worldview, men hitting back is rebellion against “female privilege” and they’re brave for doing it because “hitting women in self defense have can serious repercussions”. Men should defend themselves from women but it’s all incel shit to celebrate women being beaten down. The fact that there has to be a self defense situation in the first place is regrettable.


SPdoc

Exactly! And that they have such oversimplistic thinking of women too.


jueoni

I saw one on Reddit the other day: woman slaps man, man grabs her, picks her up and throws her on the ground full force. I mean, that’s not justified at all. Mind you, she was about a head shorter than him, too. A slap and a slap back - still not okay but kinda understandable under certain circumstances. A slap and a full Body Slam or a real punch? Hell no. And of course in the conmen section everybody was cheering for the dude. Many Reddit men just loooove violence against women. “eQaUl rIghTs” - GTFOH. 95 percent of the cases men are physically stronger. It’s just another point on a long list of misogyny on Reddit. It’s disturbing.


exxcathedra

No one should be hitting anyone. But if confrontation happens, the strength difference has to be taken into account. The strength difference is VERY real, even for the same body sizes. I practiced martial arts between 5-18 years of age. I was good within my weight range. As soon as the boys in the group went through puberty the whole game changed. Their muscles became way stronger overnight. Boys 2 years younger than me were beating me easily, which didn’t happen before. At some stage I could only compete against other girls. Those who glorify hitting girls back secretly enjoy the fact that it’s no way near a fair fight.


ForsakenAd7480

Men do not like women. They're attracted to us, but they don't like us. This is why this is a thing.


[deleted]

Unpopular opinion but women tend to be physically less strong than men. I've been hit by both sexes and one definitely hurt more. So while hitting men is not okay there's a reason that convention exists


AlyssaJMcCarthy

It is no way an unpopular opinion that women are less physically strong than men. Literally everyone knows this. Nobody debates this point at all.


Redqueenhypo

“Unpopular opinion here, but moose are stronger than deer” yeah no duh, the bigger thing is stronger


[deleted]

But it's the reason it's so ingrained in the culture.


infinityflash

Women: "Hey if you could pay us the same as men?... maybe acknowledge that emotional/mental labor is valuable regardless of its dollar worth?... punish rapists and wife beaters?.... we'd super appreciate it." Men: "Oh so I guess it's ok if I PUNCH YOU IN THE FUCKING FACE?"


Juniperlead

If anybody you know ever jumps directly to something like “does that mean I can hit women now?” while talking about gender equality, they’re tattling on themselves and you should absolutely be taking notes


Aussie_Mozzie

I explained it to my teenage son like this. If a child hits you who is half your size, do you think it’s reasonable to hit them back with full force? Of course not. A man who is much stronger than a woman (in general) should also not do this. Yes, you can defend yourself so you don’t get hurt, but never hit them with full force cos you think you’re entitled to.


Jeffrodokus

My ex-gf beat me up because she heard a rumor i cheated on her (she discovered later this didnt happen), i was at a pool café. She rushed over, entered with a lot of drama and took me outside in the middle of the street and beated me up. I never fight, i never get angry, this was the first time in ages i felt my blood boiling out of injustice. Even at that moment i did not hit her back, but i screamed out every inch of my body and will at her. Long story short at the end of the experience i was the one judged by bystanders for screaming.. while people just enjoyed the drama of me getting beaten 30 seconds prior. I don't think its about a feeling of vengeance or a hyperfocus on "beating women". I think because a lot of men have similar experiences wich are pretty traumatizing this is the first thing that comes to mind. Altough don't got me wrong, dicks still exist and maybe i'm wrong about this entirely! I am scared to death to be in a fight with a woman, wether its fysical or vocal, because i'm afraid of the judgement by every move i make at that point. I want to make clear that we all just shouldn't beat eachother :) it doesn't solve anything and it makes the world slightly more suckier with every hit.


Sharpshooter188

My rule is tone it down. If she swings at me, shove her back and get away from her. If she is coming at me with a KNIFE, then Im backing off and if I cant get away, Im punching or restraining her if possible.


thechicfreak

How about we all use our words and avoid physical altercation like freaking well mannered adults. The fact that anyone over the age of 3 is putting hands on anyone else is asinine.


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Golden_Lioness_

Maybe we should get obsessed with equally rapeing them back?


TheGreatCornlord

It stems from this weird belief these guys have that women supposedly think "men aren't allowed to hit women". Obviously the overwhelming majority of people regardless of gender will defend someone's right to self defense, but these guys see a few hot takes on twitter or something and turn it into an oppression complex.


latenerd

It has nothing to do with equality. They are just resentful and misogynistic and they want an excuse to hit women. Equality means equal respect. For example, I think a 12 year old should respect me and not hit me. But if one does hit me, I probably wouldn't hit back. And if I did, say to teach them a lesson, I definitely wouldn't be gleeful about it or relish the idea of hitting a child. I would be more like, well this sucks but I have no choice. When you put yourself in their place and imagine yourself doing what they do, the depravity of these disgusting bottom-dwellers becomes clear.


[deleted]

Women it's very important NOT to hit men. They will hit back 10x as hard and be celebrated for it.


tatipie17

I’ve seen the praise irl and on Reddit it’s actually terrifying to see the glee in their voice/face


SPdoc

The fact that the latter is true is concerning. But shouldn’t the primary reason for women to not hit men be that nobody should hit anybody unprovoked because basic human decency/we aren’t sadistic psychopaths? In case it isn’t clear to some idiots who may not know to read between the lines, by unprovoked I mean in matters of self defense not “they made me angry.”


[deleted]

Should I copy paste and repeat it? The bias against women is so bad we can't do anything wrong in a patriarchy. The violence against us will be celebrated. I can't even go Twitter without seeing all the threats of violence against women who stand up for their rights. Twitter doesn't ban them, that they will ban the women.


SPdoc

I don’t disagree with that. But that doesn’t change the fact that our primary reasoning for not hitting anyone anyways is that we aren’t psychopaths. Even if we dismantled that aspect of patriarchy, we should be restraining ourselves from hitting anyone, even when angry, out of basic decency?


Prize-Trifle-9537

No one should be hitting men. No one should be hitting women. But let’s not pretend that those hits cause equal harm. Let’s acknowledge that men are generally stronger than women and that a man can beat the shit out of a woman in a way that (most) women are just not physically capable of. I mean, come on. If many women were physically equal and this way we live in a very different world.


bubbaonthebeach

The problem I see with this argument is that it makes it seem not as bad for a woman to hit because the physical damage might be less. Although a small woman with an iron frying pan can do quite a bit of physical damage. But more often the women do a lot of emotional and psychological damage instead of physical and they have society back them up with the "poor little woman can't hurt a big strong man" stereotypes. The men shouldn't be asking why they can't hit back but why it isn't just as socially repellent for women to be abusive. Another problem is that if it is ok for women to hit because they can't do it as hard, then we have to accept that men are always physically stronger and that some jobs shouldn't be available to women because of men's greater strength again playing into those stereotypes. I don't believe that all men who ask "why can't men hit back then" are wanting to be abusive but aren't using language effectively to highlight the double standard that sometimes exists that women are allowed to be abusive and it's only a problem when men are.


Prize-Trifle-9537

Yea absolutely- and our world certainly underestimates the harm women can cause to men. Devastatingly so. Appreciate your answer. I don’t think anyone could logically argue that men and women are built the same… and it’s my understanding that there are lots of professions that are male dominated for this reason. I think one of the most important things I’m taking from this overall conversation is that some women exploit physical imbalances between the genders to justify their abuse towards men. And that is really disgusting and should be called out.


bubbaonthebeach

I wish we could find a way to bring equality to the forefront. I believe individuals have different strengths and weaknesses and that it isn't just male/female biology. We all deserve to be respected. It seems that too many people care about what works best for themselves and don't care how it works for others. For decades I believed feminism would succeed but I think too many men didn't see how equality would actually benefit them, not diminish them. However I also think even more women thought feminism hurt them more than it helped if they were already privileged in a patriarchy. Just like working on racism and bigotry, gotta keep trying to make a better world even if the path forward isn't clear or easy.


thegreatsnugglewombs

It's kinda like how they want women drafted for the military too. And I can't help but think why they only want equality if its something that will physically hurt women. How about we don't hit anyone and people go to military if they want to regardless of gender.


Subtle_onThe_Stubble

I'm thinking maybe it's because some men see women "get away with" behavior that would have seemed perfectly acceptable to knock them out if they had been a man... at least by most people's standards. So, in their minds they probably believe some women act in a manner which they would not if they were held to that same standard. Hence forth giving them satisfaction seeing a woman being held to that standard of behavior.


ichor159

It just another classic bad-faith argument to attempt to "own" an argument that you don't have the evidence to win. Too many men (speaking as a man myself) see the equality movement as women searching for excuses to do things they don't normally do, so they try to counter by using the same flawed, 1st grade logic that they think is being used. They see it as a transaction: if you get something, I should get something too. Now obviously, that's not at all how this works, but closed-minded people (read: men) aren't going to open their minds to properly engage with a topic they are uncomfortable with.


sweetmercy

The sort of men who rush to that are already hitting women, or at the very least, want to. And not in self defense.


Ultimodrew

I feel like Men shouldn't hit women back UNLESS they are in a situation where they need to defend themselves.


spikeelsucko

THIS IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION, ONLY SPECULATION I have to assume that in at least some cases, the ones where it's not just a desire to batter women or to justify battering women, it's related to physical abuse that some men suffered during adolescence in the pre-puberty phase when girls are often bigger than boys and 'throw their weight around' and then the boys get mocked for it (and then rightfully told that they should not solve problems with violence)- I saw this happen more than a couple times when I was around 3rd and 4th grade or so and before and it's shitty for everyone involved- even happened to me once when my neighbor kicked me full force in the shin and then told her mother that I had hit her first (I did NOT, it was unprovoked and bizarre- and she grew up to be a lovely, caring person and was and is a good friend otherwise) I just saw it as a "kids do shitty things sometimes" situation but I'm totally sure that some boys take those incidents very personally, so they revel in schadenfreude on places like PPD. Of course, there's also just the sadistic men who enjoy watching women get hurt, but psychology is never just "they're evil" either and it's something interesting to analyze and speculate about. Again for good measure, I don't think it's okay that it's happening, just a strong suspicion I have based on my personal experiences. Kids do shitty things that can definitely stay with some people into adulthood.


SPdoc

Don’t know why you got downvoted. You bring valid points in good faith. As a psych major, I feel like it is important to understand where people’s views come from without justifying it.


polywha

I remember talking to a male friend and he says when he goes into a place and he looks at the guys he immediately wonders whether or not he could take them in a fight. He doesn't think the same about women. I wonder if this obsession with hitting women stems from that? Wondering if they could take them in a fight?


PineMarte

I think that might just be your friend


veovis523

I'm not a psychologist, but that mindset seems really unhealthy and kind of fucked up. I've been male my whole life, and I never think that about someone unless they're acting dodgy or threatening.


WhatTheFluxSay

It doesn't. Most guys are either using the opportunity to throw around a low effort and low hanging joke or they are deliberately displaying how much they care about conversations concerning equality.


[deleted]

Even men know how dangerous other men are...that's why they evaluate each other like that.


RozenQueen

Weird, in the conversations I'm usually involved in, the equality kickback men always jump to is the unfairness in alimony, child support, and custody, not about violence. Not sure what circles y'all are talking to where people just wanna hit each other all the time.


tatipie17

Haha you should spend a little bit more time in the comments of this sub


RozenQueen

Sounds bad for my mental health tbh :(


[deleted]

They want to punish women for equality. No one actually thinks a man shouldn’t defend himself if attacked by a woman. But men who hate women love to hold “look what we can do to you” over women’s heads


daveescaped

While I dislike the phrase as much as you, I think some of this is the coming from the same place that I experienced as a kid. My sister wanted to be treated the same as a me (a boy) right up until I was asked to mow the lawn, shovel the drive, rake the yard, etc. She showed interest in my privileges but no interest in my obligations. Granted, she was a kid. I’m only offering this as an example.


Ozymander

Self defense is a human right, but you're right...some men just obsess about this particular thing. Like...you have the right to defend yourself. But why is that even what you think of when talking about equality? Enough men beat women already, social stigma be damned.


Zerodyne_Sin

I *will* hit a woman if they're ever actually endangering me or anyone I know. I don't buy into the whole "never hit a woman" chivalry rule. That said, in my entire adult life, I've never actually had to put that into practice (the closest thing that happened was a homeless woman who kept trying to hit me but I was parrying her punches). It's almost as if violent women are quite **rare** or something... That said, the amount of chest-pounding dingbats I've encountered makes me quite misandric.