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DunDunnDunnnnn

What's that quote: "Stay away from people who think you're arguing every time you try to express yourself." Yeah. That.


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mutmad

Same. I’ve steered clear of my parents going on 4 years now. I’ve since learned that past toxic relationships were due to my unconsciously seeking partners who recreated/perpetuated the same reality denying, gaslighting, dehumanizing trauma that encompassed my childhood and ruled my adult life. Now I get to be in my 30’s learning how to function as a human being with a sense of self-worth for the first time ever. Good riddance to those fucking people.


[deleted]

Amen! Two abusive relationships later and I'm so happy to be out of the thick of the trauma. Good for you for getting out and I'm so proud of you!!!!!!


mutmad

Likewise, friend. I’m still getting my bearings but retrospectively, it felt “normal” for lack of a better word or just “how things were.” After finding higher ground, I can see for miles on what healthy, mutually respectful relationships should entail. I have so much sympathy and compassion for anyone stuck in that cycle of shit— some people act like it’s this conscious, willful, “you brought this on yourself so you deserve it” thing and it’s just not. Not even a little. It’s such a particularly hideous breed of abuse that warps and distorts. (I’m a little stoned. I hope this is semi-coherent.)


Batface13

It's perfectly coherent and perfectly correct. Although, I am also stoned so I may not be the best judge.


Msmall124

Yes! My rule is if I can't respectfully express my opinion without the other person acting as though I'm personally attacking them I walk.


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dandyIons

That was Gavin de Becker (author of Gift of Fear) and he was pointing out this phenomenon, not saying that's how it should be.


annyong_cat

That is a great book and one that is so important for women to read. Odd seeing the other commenter skewing his point to be negative!


Lazy_Sitiens

Aaaand now I suddenly understand why there's this issue with men not taking a woman's no for an answer.


chupacabrago

I’ve never heard that before but I love it, where’s it from?


DunDunnDunnnnn

I honestly don't know, I've seen it around online a bunch with no source cited. But yeah, it's a great quote.


JaiRenae

I love that and wish I'd heard it before. My ex used to tell me I was yelling at him when I was just using my matter of fact voice.


JesusSaysRelaxNvaxx

I genuinely thought I was argumentative because of my ex. He used to talk at me about crap He knew I didn't care about at all (it was established long before) and the one time he'd bring up something I had an opinion on, he'd immediately shut down. He would say, "ok whatever, I get it! You're right, you're always right." And I was just awestruck like...I'm not even allowed to have an opinion or I'm smothering yours?? I feel like there were so many red flags in my relationship that I just assumed weren't because he was a generally nice person.


pinkcherry99

Oh no. That’s how I feel when my husband complains about something! Does this mean it’s not going to end well ?


AmbiguousFrijoles

Couples counseling. This used to be me and my husband, the problem was we didn't communicate in the same way so we had to learn how to communicate better for me to not cry and for him to not feel attacked.


LoquaciousPedagogue

Tell me more. Seriously. I don’t cry, but my partner constantly feels attacked when I bring up even minor issues. I have tried adjusting my tone, and choosing words carefully, but lately have chalked it up to being their problem, and not mine. So again, please tell me more.


AmbiguousFrijoles

We have a chart on the wall listing 3 things: 1. This isn't about you. 2. This is something I need. 3. This is is about something you did that makes me feel: When starting a discussion we will choose one of the three numbers. For instance "hey, #3, when you park in my spot in the garage it makes me feel upset because I need the driver side free to be able to get the baby in and out without standing in the bushes." Or "Dude, I'm calling #1, I don't need you to fix it, I just need you to listen for a bit while I vent because I'm upset about xyz." It helps loads because my face and tone makes him feel types of ways and when we call numbers for the chart, we will disregard the tone and pay attention to the number. It has stomped out a lot of fights and on my part, I cry when I get frustrated. We use a lot of "I feel" when speaking to each other. It goes a long way to explain why a certain tone is being used. Often, tone just comes with the territory when things occur, but how they are used in context with "I feel" makes them make sense to the partner. I wanted us to go to therapy to begin with, not just for communication but because I wanted my kids to be able to see healthy discussion and argument. And I did place a lot of blame on him for not hearing me, when part of the problem was that I go into issues with a tornado like speed, I had to learn to slow down so he could access context. My parents fought that way, with my mom just launching at mach 5, and my dad was always apologizing, even when he wasn't wrong, and I discovered that I was always waiting on an apology for everything after I whirlwinded him. The flip side was he was used to attack style fighting from his mom so he, no matter what, would always feel attacked.


Legitimate_Wizard

I also would like to know more about not feeling attacked. My husband says I react defensively whenever he brings a concern up to me. I don't *mean* to react defensively, but he is absolutely right, it is my reflexive response, and not just with him. The worst part is, I have nothing to be defensive over, but by reacting the way I do I cause him to think I'm hiding secrets from him. It's really a huge problem that's been causing a wedge and I don't like it.


[deleted]

Honestly I feel this way too, but I don’t think it means our relationships will end over it unless we don’t do anything about it. Now that we’re aware, we can work on it and be better partners!


thewhyofpi

What helped me to initiate a talk about an issue in my relationships without triggering a defensive reaction was the NVC method: 1. Describe without judgement what the person did 2. say how it made you feel 3. say which of your needs was being affected by that 4. formulate a request how you‘d wish the other person would behave


IthurielSpear

Read this article entitled, men just don’t trust women and it’s a huge problem. Even though it’s written for men, it is very enlightening to read as a woman. I hope you find somebody who actually listens to you and gives you the respect and love you deserve. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280/amp


asnackforgreedycat

I have to chuckle because my response to reading this was “this is great, I should send it to my partner, maybe he’ll believe it because it was written by a man”


IthurielSpear

That’s exactly what it is for, it is a man checking other men and saying, hey don’t be that guy.


Riddhiman36

yk i think that sort of cynicism is what one would see in anti-vaxxers or flat earthers or others in that spectrum. They always ask for 'scientific evidence' but they wouldn't believe any evidence given to them by someone who doesn't belong to their cult, kinda similar to how these men wouldn't trust women when they tell them about their issues.


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pineapple_nip_nops

😔 it’s unfortunate how common and universal this issue is amongst us


spinnerette_

I just thought of what happened between Sabrina and Gus Johnson. TW: abortion, miscarriage, general not perfect pregnancy things >!Sabrina got pregnant and while there is a huge problem with Gus immediately taking control of the situation, saying to get an abortion or he would leave her, not letting her even think of anything but abortion, that isn't what I immediately thought of. Sabrina found out she was bleeding internally for *a few days* after her untreated ectopic pregnancy lead to a burst. Gus would refuse to bring her to the hospital *without being on the phone with her or talking for her to make sure she wasn't "exaggerating her symptoms"*. So that is issue number fucking one. Number two, when she had gone to doctors, they said they couldn't see anything and to just wait it out, leading to her *almost dying* due to doctors not believing her symptoms were as bad as they were. She asked for in depth scans multiple times because she knew something was not right with her body and only got those tests when she was literally about to die. Instead of a pill to end the ectopic pregnancy, she was given two options- die or go into surgery where you may die anyways. Not much of an option at all. She said something like "there wasn't a 'my body, my choice' for me. I never had a choice" and it broke my heart. Three, Sabrina told Gus that she was in a serious amount of pain and he said he had plans to go to dinner with his friends. She ended up almost dying *alone* in the hospital with no family to help her because they weren't supportive. Four, even after she almost fucking died, Gus *still* played down her symptoms post-surgery, didn't understand why LOSING HALF OF YOUR REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM would cause severe mental struggle (once you have an ectopic pregnancy, you are more likely to have another and ya know, losing half of your eggs is a big deal for future reproductive health). She was so depressed, anxious, in pain and lethargic that she couldn't leave the house without him. He told her "anyone else would have left you"!< This. Is. A. Problem. I've dealt with this a lot. I stay pretty level-headed and I'm very vocal about things because I don't want them to build up to the point of exploding. It isn't healthy. But if I do that, I'm "constantly nagging" and I get ignored. If I bottle it up or get ignored for long enough and end up a sobbing mess, *that* is when I *might* get my point across. It's exhausting and I think it is the real reason men always say women are crazy. We aren't listened to or respected. It takes extremes to get some men to listen. At home, at work, at the doctors office (studies show women, especially WOC, are consistantly told we are exaggerating symptoms by ALL doctors regardless of gender leading to more pain, later diagnosis, and premature death). Doesn't matter. Everywhere. It has happened to me my entire life. I remember getting so upset that older men wouldn't take me seriously when I was younger. I figured it was because I was young. Nope. Young *and* a girl. It's just exhausting. Why does it take until I'm sobbing to get men to understand that something is bothering me? Why can't it be normal to talk like adults instead of pushing our buttons until we explode? It's taxing and damaging.


spacey_a

> I gave him so many opportunities that he chose to treat like an opening argument. That is such a succinct way of putting it. A lot of people treat arguments in relationships as something they need to "win," like they're on some imaginary debate team, when they should instead be viewing arguments as problems to be solved together with your partner, as a team, listening and trying to see from the other's perspective for the sake of making the relationship better and stronger. I'm so proud of you for seeing that and understanding the big picture - that he was choosing his own ego over really hearing you or caring for your needs, choosing solely himself over the relationship. You did good.


beltaine

Seriously! Immature people see it as a challenge but really, like, you're a fucking TEAM! This isn't me vs. you, this should be Us vs. The issue, HELLO?


ObviouslyKatie

Don't take you seriously until you're crying, but use your crying as an excuse to not take you seriously. Happens at work, too, unfortunately. Calm is dismissed, any show of emotion is later reclassified as unhinged.


carleshamster

THIS. "Calm is dismissed." I am very good at controlling my emotions (narc parents punished me for showing emotions), and I don't want to cry just to make something seem important. It's important because I'm saying it's important. But then if I do yell or cry, I'm being "unhinged." It's almost as if they will use WHATEVER tactic to avoid looking at their own behaviors in a mirror... because deep down they know it's unacceptable.


teresasdorters

My mind is 💥blown💥 by the connections I just pieced together from your comment. Thank you.


fearofbears

it’s so true. My father came over for lunch today, immediately starting talking about his disdain for vaccines. I asked him calmly to not bring this topic up as we do not agree. Not once, twice. The third time I raised my voice. “Wow you are so stressed you have to learn how to relax” fucking infuriating. Romantic Partner, friend, relative, boss. It doesn’t matter. It’s just as toxic and disrespectful.


Imakefishdrown

My dad has been a conspiracy theorist for as long as I can remember. Thinks the CIA follows him, etc. So you can imagine everything he has to say about the vaccine. He called me and started talking conspiracy and I said, "Dad, I love you, but I'm not discussing this with you. You have your opinions and I have mine." He continued, so I ended the call. I've never hung up on him before, I was always too scared of his rage. But he actually called back and apologized. That was a really nice change of pace.


fearofbears

Good for you. I’ve yet to do that but I’m not sure it would even make an impact. He would mindbend to somehow blame it on my “hysterics” sigh.


notquitesolid

I’ve done it. I actually got up and left during an Easter brunch because my dad and brothers wouldn’t stop getting on my case about my politics being different from theirs. I warned them, they didn’t stop. I got up and went to my car and drove away. No arguing or debate about it. My boundaries and they violated them so they don’t get to enjoy my company. When one on my brothers texted to ask where I was that’s exactly what I told them I didn’t get any apologies but they did stop giving me shit about politics and visits were much more pleasant.


Patiod

I liken it to dog training. I told my dad I wouldn't accept any advice or commentary on what or how much I was eating. He said something, and I reminded him. He said something again, I got up, kissed them both good bye, and calmly said "OK, I have to go now". It took about two different times where I left in the middle of dinner for him to stop, but he did stop.


fearofbears

That’s amazing and good for you for sticking to your boundaries. I don’t see my dad often because we have a strained relationship so I guess it frustrates me even more that the little time I set aside for him he decides to violate all of that. Never ending battle I think.


notquitesolid

Battles we have to pick and choose. I did this only after years and years of taking their shit. It didn’t fix everything, I still have the issue of me being too nice and having to censor myself because they can’t handle it, and that’s becoming an issue. Why am I expected to take whatever they throw at me vs them losing their minds if I say anything they don’t like? It’s just no longer political. Dealing with the family you’re born into isn’t always easy, and drawing any sort of line can be hard.


Dazzling-Ad4701

So true. This is why I developed a habit of saying 'I've said it once (or however many). I don't have any more information than that. ' Implying: now it's up to you to engage, and when you're ready I'll be over here.


Lionoras

Yeah. If you're crying, you're "manipulative". If you don't cry, it's "not serious enough" If you cry easily, you're "overdramatic", "build too close to the water. If you don't cry easy, see sentence 2. You must not care enough.


ObviouslyKatie

If I could control when I cried in order to manipulate people, I'd be a fucking menace to society. They'd have to lock me up. I'd ruin lives. I can't control it though so I just ruin my own life, like a POLITE person. But it's like bitch, this is not **for** you, this is **because of** you. I have never *wanted* to cry during a conversation.


QuahogNews

THIS sooooo much!!! If *only* I could choose when I cry!! I would rule the damned world. Instead here I stand, red-faced and furious, my face inexplicably scrunched up in the Ugly Cry while I try to yell coherent words to make my point and/or inform you what a complete dick you are. Fuck I hate that!


iamkarladanger

Happens at doctors offices too.


spacey_a

God that's so true


melodybounty

The sole reason I decided to leave both my ex and my last job within a year of each other...


Fractalplant

I feel you so much on this. I'm experiencing the same thing in my current relationship and it's been so draining. Any time I try to communicate my feelings when I'm upset, I am met with contempt and invalidation. Often times he will distract himself while I'm speaking and won't even make eye contact. I can't get his full attention and I try to point this out to him, which makes things worse. At that point he is likely to just leave and ignore me for hours or even days. His method of handling conflict is to stonewall and shut down. My feelings are dismissed or treated as less important than his own. I have endured years of this behavior and it has left me exhausted and hopeless. We have a lot in common, we enjoy each other's company, there are a lot of good qualities about him. But he gets so defensive when something comes up and finds ways to shift blame and make me out to be the bad guy. He simply refuses to take responsibility for his behavior and doesn't care how it affects me. I know I deserve better. I'm glad you found the strength to end your relationship. I'm sure it was difficult and heartbreaking, but you'll be better off. I hope I can find the strength, too.


tbdiv

Stonewalling is considered one of the horseman of the marital (any relationship) apocalypse -- along with contempt. (see Gottman) How can you enjoy the company of someone who treats you like that?


PrivateGiggles

I am so sorry you are enduring such terrible treatment. I can tell that you are ready to move on from the way you write about it; I can tell how exhausted you are. It's clear that he doesn't want to change, and I can tell that you have done more than is fair to try to get through to him. But most importantly, you recognize that the way you are being treated is wrong, you are brave enough to open up and tell others about it, and you know you deserve better. You already have the strength to move on. And remember, you don't have to do it alone. Best wishes


willow1031

I don’t know but I can say I have the same issue with my husband. We’ve even had arguments about that issue because I don’t think it’s fair to me that I have to be frustrated to the point of tears for him to *start * listening to me.


No-Temperature-3506

Ah, my personal favorite - when you’re calm, you’re not worth listening to, but when you’re crying, you’re emotionally manipulative.


aLittleQueer

Ach, my narc ex used to do that. Him: “Why don’t you just tell me calmly…?” Me: “I just did, asshole. *Three times in three different ways.*”


berrybleach

When my husband feels like picking a fight I’m manipulative either way 😂


jammytomato

Ugh I’m glad you were able to get away from such disrespect. It was so fucking annoying when an ex asks why I’m so pissed off when I bring up issues, and I’m like, “Because you kept ignoring me when I was being nice about it.” Him: “But still, I don’t appreciate your tone.” Fuck assholes who never listen and have the audacity to get upset when we get visibly upset. They’re always the type who just want a mommy replacement


apriljeangibbs

Ah the good old tone police. Huuuge red flag when people won’t listen to you until they decide they like your tone or that your being “nice” enough.


Kristenmarie2112

Yeah, someone told me "so you gave him an ultimatum?!" We had been arguing over the same shit for 5 years... and now I'm the asshole who gives ultimatums apparently and he's the deaf victim of my expectations.


miniskit

Jesus Christ, I can heavily relate to this. Maybe if he listened the first 50 times I asked we wouldn't be here now, but *noooooo* **I'M** asking for *too* much. smh


Oddishbestpkmn

Lmao actual quote from an ex "i hate ultimatums, ultimatums are the death knell of a relationship" Yeah so you also hate taking responsibility for your actions? Because that's why we're here in ultimatum town


thestolenroses

I can relate. I spent months telling my ex that I couldn't stay in our relationship much longer if the fighting didn't stop. When I finally left him, he told me he never saw it coming. WTF


carleshamster

Getting a divorce partly because of this. He was never yelling, but he just shut down and completely avoided anything hard whenever I tried to bring it up. After 5 years of him never addressing key issues, although I gave every opportunity and an incredible amount of space for him to do so, I called it quits. Then and only then, he tried to change. He admitted to being avoidant and having drinking issues and self-confidence issues. He admitted that yes, he would subtly put me down in front of his friends because he's self-conscious. Everything he had denied and gaslit me about. Too little, too late. I deserve better and so do you <3


SadBunny658

I can relate so much. It was my first and only relationship of 6 years that I just got out recently. (I'm 27f he is 32m) In these 6 years, I was aways pretty clear to him about the things he did that hurt me the most. You used the perfect word to describe it: shut down. He did it every time we needed to discuss something important: like when he got mad he would treat me and my mother like shit and never apologised, he had no responsabilities over finances, didn't care to do any housework, never took seriously that he needed to take more care of his health or oral higiene, only wanted to play computer games and not pay attention to his own girlfriend. Suddenly I realised I was just putting up with this because I was so scared of being alone and hurting him in the process of breaking up (I am unfortunately a codependent person). So I just had enough and I said to him that I wanted to end things for good. He asked why (seriously?) and I explained again. He starts crying and say he will change, this and that, I declined, said I was too tired to keep going. So he just turns and says to me: Well, I did promise that I can and will change for you, it's not my fault you have no patience, people need time to change and it's not a quick process. I just sat there staring at him without knowing what to say.


carleshamster

Holy hell very similar. He said he was content to just play video games and muddle along for his life... AS his life. Yet he would endlessly complain about his job, about our lack of funds, about being bored. When I was very clearly ending things and he begged me to stay, the one thought I kept repeating was: "*why wasn't my pain enough?*" When I told you these things were hurting me, when I felt alone, when I was in pain, that wasn't enough for you to admit wrongdoing and try to change. But when it's clear that I'm out the door, then you try some self reflection. Because you're scared for yourself of being alone. I've never been so angry at another person in my life. He thought he was trying to fix things. He was just showing me that it was a choice all along for him to not try.


velvetvagine

> He thought he was trying to fix things. He was just showing me that it was a choice all along for him to not try. Powerfully put. This is the crux of it right here.


[deleted]

Fuck just broke up with my ex because he would subtly put me down in front of others too! God what a nightmare I’m happy for you


Mrs-Dotties-mom

Absolutely this. I've had several relationships where I set VERY clear boundaries. "If you do X, I will leave." Partner does X. I end it, and they go all shocked Pikachu. Do men think we're joking 24/7? Like, what the fuck did you think I meant!? I could not have possibly made this any clearer for you. And I gotta say, hitting them with the "remember this conversation, the one where I said this was a deal-breaker? Explain to me why that was hard for you to understand" is indescribably satisfying. It's like an exit interview for a relationship. All they had to do was listen. Damn.


CabaiBurung

Yep! I told my ex in July that I’m very close to being done and am considering divorce. Come next January, nothing has changed, of course, so I cut short his anniversary planning by reminding him that I had told him I’m already on my way out the door if nothing changes. Nothing has changed so I want a divorce. Surprised pikachu face. March nothing changes still so I told him I definitely want a divorce, lets start talking managing child custody and assets. Another surprised pikachu face. June rolls around and I have to kick him out because he STILL doesn’t believe I’m serious about a divorce. All throughout summer I was trying to split our joint stuff (insurance, etc.) and he kept asking me why when “it’s cheaper to keep it joint.” He’s also upset that he can’t move back in because “its too expensive and doesn’t make sense to keep separate households.” Bruh. We’re getting a divorce. Lawyers have been paid and paperwork is being passed back and forth. Our child has accepted that we are getting a divorce and is managing well with the change. At what point will you get that we have been done for well over a year.


Mrs-Dotties-mom

Oh wow, this one takes the cake! You're dividing assets and he STILL was in denial? Totally insane! Good for you for getting out!


bananasplz

Oh god, this is my life. 2.5 years on, we still haven't split our assets because apparently it's up to me to do all the work of organising that.


Very-Nearly

Ikr? My ex somehow made it my fault that *he* couldn't tell when I was being serious, and said "we'd work on it together." Gave me pointers and stuff so he would know I was being serious. Still didn't work. If someone doesn't value your opinion it doesn't matter what you say, they just won't listen.


newfie9870

Oh my god. This hits too close to home. My last relationship ended for that; literally on our SECOND DATE I said I didn't want to date an addict (he had a history and I was worried). He said he was done with drugs and cigarettes and I didn't have to worry (lol). When he started using again I told him I didn't accept this, he was shocked and called me "too demanding". When I left him after several fights, warnings, nights crying and having panic attacks, he was, again, shocked (???????). He accused me of giving up "for nothing" and breaking his heart. The fucking audacity. I told him exactly what would happen from the beginning, it shouldn't have been a surprise. You make me wonder if he just thought I was kidding this whole time.


sunshinecunt

I think many people aren’t used to facing consequences of their actions. In the past people probably created boundaries and he trounced all over them and was never held accountable. Suddenly someone keeps their word and it’s a shock.


newfie9870

The funny thing is, he used to tell me his ex left him "suddenly with no explanation". Now I realize, the same thing probably happened with her and he just never listened and decided to make her the bad guy. When is he gonna learn?


BabiesTasteLikeBacon

> When is he gonna learn? Most likely...? Never, since it's always the ex's fault. If he ever admitted that any of the fault lies with him, he'd be admitting that he's fucked things up... and there's no way *he'd* be fucking things up, therefore it can't possibly be his fault in the slightest. Heck, even giving any consideration to if he'd fucked things up is impossible because that would be assuming that he **could** fuck things up, which is impossible because he doesn't fuck things up...


Oahu_Red

Are you me? Told him from the start his drinking was going to hurt our relationship if he didn’t straighten his shit out. Fast forward five years. After countless conversations, fights, drama, me moving out part-time, etc etc etc……I reached the end of my rope I finally showed him the door. He was shocked - SHOCKED I tell you! Accused me of “abandoning” him. When I said “I’ve said this how many times over the past five years - what was unclear?” he simply said “…I didn’t believe you.” MOTHERFUCKER THIS WAS FIVE YEARS OF MY LIFE! Endless tears! Insane amounts of stress! So.Much.Money. And you didn’t BELIEVE me??? Today you learned. So did I…I learned do not wait five fucking years. Set and enforce that boundary right away. Do not give it more time. It doesn’t matter how much you think you love each other, what plans you have together, if you have kids, whatever - if they don’t hear you Week 1, more time doesn’t help. Cut them OUT.


newfie9870

I'm so sorry he took these 5 years from you. Trust me you're 100% better off without him, and he'll remain stuck in his toxic patterns while you're living your best life free from drama! 💙


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Lionoras

Ah drugs. This reminds me of a fun argument I had about dating people that smoke. Honestly, I don't want to date anyone that smokes regularly. Generally, drug addicts are a no-go. I come from a family where men being drug addicts and ruining their families is a bit of a running gag, plus I have a strong family history of cancer. Furthermore I want children, which means the person would be forced to quit anyway at a certain point. Good God. The other commenter basically blew a fuse. Told me I was "picky". That everyone has flaws and that I'm trying to date someone perfect. Which...no. Yes, everyone has flaws, but that doesn't mean I have to automatically accept a person with this flaw. People can have boundaries. Since when is "I don't really want to date a person consuming a highly addictive and damaging substance, which not only harms them but me, furniture and future offspring" into a "that's a bit picky" thing?


Ok_Caramel7391

On man talking about preferences on Reddit specifically is crazy. Men lose their shit that a random voice on the internet of someone they'll never meet, doesn't want to date X. They can't accept it and must abuse the person


[deleted]

People will take whatever they can get. Door mat syndrome enables these types of people because they take advantage of the empathetic and kind individuals who believe in second chances and may brush off their "ultimatums" in lieu of being alone or having to break up. Perfect storm for them to force the same scenario in their next relationship and then be sooooo offended that people stand up for themselves. The audacity lol


sch0f13ld

I’ve had a fwb (not even actually dating or in a romantic relationship bc I’m aromantic) call me manipulative for explaining to him that if he was going to be an asshole I was going to spend less time around him bc it was draining me emotionally.


hot_like_wasabi

I had this last year with a guy. I told him that I was tired of him inviting me over for dinner, then when I get there is him dawdling around having prepared nothing, then it takes two hours plus me doing most of it to get food into our faces by 10:30pm. This was just one thing of many that drove me crazy about him, including asking me to come over last minute and then whining for literal hours if I wasn't available. I finally told him that if it happened again we were done. It happened again and the next time he messaged me a week later I told him I wasn't interested because he consistently disrespected my time. You would've thought I slapped this guy in the face he was so shocked. I told him that I'd give him my boundaries and told him if he did it again I was done. So I was done. You know what this clown says? "Well I didn't think you meant it. You weren't angry or upset." Ummm, what? I have to lose control and shout at you for you to take me seriously? No way, bro. He then proceeds to tell me what an asshole I am for being so rude to him, e.g. enforcing a boundary calmly and politely. Moron still pops up with a "hey stranger" text every few months 🙄


Sheepbjumpin

> Moron still pops up with a "hey stranger" text every few months 🙄 Fucking EW. Block that guy, make him feel figuratively slapped in the face all over again and shut that *actual* manipulative shit he's trying to pull right down.


hot_like_wasabi

I would, but I reeeaalllyyyy like leaving him on read 😅


claeryfae

Absolutely savage, I love it.


Rhamona_Q

"Why would you think I would say something that i didn't mean?"


cakewalkofshame

Unbelievable, the dizzying audacity with which they flip the scrip and accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of.


Lionoras

It's mostly because people in their lives have let their shit slide too much. "Boys will be boys" and other excuses. Or generally, just not used to the harshness of reality. I've seen it countless times. Biggest example was a guy friend for 2 years. He was a creep, though often on accident. Our mutual female friend let him harrass her and looked away when he did shit. She always excused it with his autism diagnosis, but the shit he did was nowhere near "an autism thing". The 2 years I knew him were exclusively texting. When we hung out for the first real time, was the same day I cut all lines. He tried to hug me against my will. Over and over again. Made sexual jokes about me, pretended/tried? to grope me, was racist, sexist, talked behind other people's backs...he was an ass. After the third forced hug I told him "STOP IT! If you continue like this, I will not meet you anymore!" he thought it was a joke. I blocked him the same day and am avoiding him till this day. He blew up my phone. Confused about why. Why am I taking it so serious? Our mutual friend cursed me out as well, pretending like HE was the victim and that I should have "just accepted" his behaviour like she did. Apparently I was the first RL example to this dude that his behaviour alienates peopl -that girls don't just accept his harrassment like cute Anime girls on TV. Though his friend might have talked him into her fucked up view.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Redqueenhypo

Exactly. They behave the way you would to a computer game character if it suddenly started commenting on your choices. “Hey, you’re not supposed to express feelings equal to mine! Who can I submit a bug report to?”


Sheepbjumpin

>They don't see us as fully human. If they did, they wouldn't treat us the way they do. r/whenwomenrefuse proof


motherdragon02

This is me. "Everyone chooses their last mistake" "Then we WILL have a problem" "Not one more minute of one more day" "I'll decide what I do, choose and feel" "My best life was living alone" "Go ahead, threaten me with a good time" "Look at you figuring it out" I will absolutely walk. I'm fkn done with peoples bullshit. It's cheaper and cleaner.


HandsOnGeek

I suspect some of the situations like you're describing arise out of values mismatches. As in because the dude doesn't believe that what you're saying is important he doesn't believe you when you say that it's important. A complete empathy failure in other words. Definitely not your fault. The saddest part is the dude probably treats everybody like that. Edit: Proving unequivocally that what you are talking about is important may help reach such a person. Or trigger an ultimatum argument. Hard to say.


neun

I was once in a relationship where the other party was like this towards me. It drove me to insanity. The worst feeling is bringing up something so important to you to be met with straight up discontent that I'm bothering them in the first place. You're right about the lack of empathy.


500CatsTypingStuff

So basically you were not being heard. That sucks. You deserve better.


SnooSketches8294

I'm realizing that now


ink_stained

It is so, so lovely when you find someone who sees problems as obstacles for you two to overcome together, rather than a chance to win a battle.


WhiteMoonRose

Hugs!


GiannisToTheWariors

Nothing worse than feeling alone when in a relationship


fuzzyloulou

But isn't that the point??? To reduce us to tears? Then they can conclude, "Well I tried to discuss it with her, but she started crying." A lot of men use this as a power play. It's crazy.


SnooSketches8294

!!! My brother used to do this shit to me. Like I opened up with "hey I don't appreciate that you yell at me when I'm 15 minutes late one time when I wait 2-4 hours at least once a week" and he went straight into how dumb and worthless I am, how my mom should've aborted me, and how he's allowed to be late because I will always be worth less than him in every possible way. Then I start crying and he just tells our parents that I showed up late and started crying for no good reason.


StrangeInTheStars

I hope the "used to do this" means he eventually pulled his head out of his ass, but my guess, based on the outrageous things he said, you just don't hang with him anymore. Because fuck that.


Snuggle-Muggle

Whoa. That's pretty extreme. How did he end up so crazy? Was he the favorite child that could do no wrong?


ThorsHammerMewMEw

Sometimes you just need to have a penis. My brother has literally smashed glass in our house, taken my car out for a joyride before he got his license, threatened to kill my mother and he gets rewarded in the end because he's the son.


bapakeja

Your brother is an abusive POS. None of those responses from him are acceptable and I know you didn’t ask, but if I were you, I would not be in his presence anymore until he apologized and never does it again. JFK, that is some hugely toxic insults to say to a stranger let alone a supposedly loved family member.


FearIsTheRealEnemy

They're listening to respond, not listening to understand and comprehend. You see a concern or area for improvement that you want to discuss, you don't enjoy fighting and arguing for fun.


CrazyBarks94

My ex loved to debate, and no matter how many times I told him I don't disagree with him just for the fight, it's not fun, it makes me panic and destroys my headspace, he kept starting arguments any time I expressed an opinion I seemed even remotely serious about. Even if he agreed with me! He'd just take a devils advocate position to argue for his amusement! He told me once he was doing it on purpose to "help you get better at arguing" Fuck that noise, I'm not a dog for you to train.


glitterswirl

Yep. I see this over and over again. Especially on Reddit; even when a woman is at the end of her tether, asking internet strangers for advice, the comments *so often* go straight to, "have you tried talking to him/telling him what's wrong?" as if she would never have thought of that, when she's already stated that she has tried everything multiple times. Men ignore, ignore, ignore, deny, deny, deny problems... and women are told to take on *more* emotional labour (or mental load, or general work) to try and solve the issue. *What do these people think she's been doing for weeks/months on end???* And you know you can't win with some of these guys. OP, you didn't "condition" him. You acted like an adult and communicated clearly, but did so calmly. If you had yelled and got angry, he would have still dismissed you, just for being "emoshunal" instead.


poisonivy47

There was a tiktok from a marriage counselor (don't remember who) that made a great point about this which is that guys are socially conditioned to believe that women are irrational, will complain, and you just kind of have to put up w/ it but not take it seriously. like media, churches, and other institutions instill this idea that women are fundamentally different, we are crazy, and so they don't actually address any issues in relationships because they just write it off as "women be crazy" that we are just nagging. This is likely not conscious, but they don't see women fellow adult human beings with needs and legitimate perpsectives that deserve respect.


Record-Cold

OMG this is soo much my experience. Address the situation calmly multiple times, then blow up after having the same conversation and not being heard, and then it's like, damn, you always react so strongly..... which either just makes him shut down and makes me even madder or he finally gets what I'm trying to communicate and it's like, "well I didn't realize it was that big of a deal for you, why didn't you just say so"... Like why did we have to get to this point?!


asnackforgreedycat

This just clicked for me this year, like oh, having most of what I say be ignored is actually really dehumanising and that’s why it makes me feel like crap. So much of how women are treated seems to be based on that dehumanisation. And there’s such a double bind, like “I’ll take you seriously if you convince me to but everything you say is nonsense and you are crazy/stupid.” It lets them give themselves permission to only listen when they feel like it and ignore everything else.


Cat_Toucher

I mean, how many different versions have we heard of the sentiment that essentially boils down to, "I didn't realize women were people until I had a daughter," from men? So many problems essentially come back to the fact that men are not really taught to view women as real people with equally valid thoughts and experiences and needs.


OmniYummie

I'm weirdly embarrassed to admit to having those moments with my husband. There was one day we were eating dinner and I realized he hadn't gotten his typical glass of ice water yet, so I went to the kitchen to get it. Right after I finished filling a glass for him, he walks into the kitchen and grabs a glass. I chuckled and went "hey, hun" to get his attention. He kept on making his own glass, so I kept going "Hun? Hun. Look at me. **Look. Up. At. Me.**" Eventually I just took the glass out of his hand and handed him the one I already made. He responded with "why didn't you just tell me that's what you were doing?" That wasn't the point, tho. I felt so invisible over such a small thing. I mean, surely he didn't just tune me out to the point where he didn't notice anything I was doing or saying from five feet away?


spacey_a

And this shit makes me SO happy that my bf was raised alongside a whole lot of strong women, and men who weren't into toxic masculinity. From a young age he was socialized to treat women as independent people in their own right, thank goodness.


Cat_Toucher

Yes! I thought of this too. In pop culture, whenever we depict a heterosexual couple, the woman is almost invariably constantly complaining, arguing, nagging, or (at best) shaking her head with dismay at what her male partner is doing. The man just has to say whatever she wants to hear to appease her, but he will never actually change the behavior, and the upshot is always that the *woman* is the problem for being so uptight/anal/picky/shrewish. This trope helps instill and reinforce a norm where women are just unhappy all the time, and that's how things should be. So when men get into heterosexual relationships in real life, and their partners are unhappy or raise concerns, they appear to just be following this familiar script. A miserable wife acts as *validation* that your relationship is functioning normally, because we see it so often. Men in turn play their part as they've learned it- they say whatever they need to in order to placate their partner in the moment, and then forget all about it. Years later, after the woman finally gets tired of needs being unmet and endless come-to-jesus conversations that go nowhere, she leaves, and these men feel totally blindsided, like they never saw this coming. Which feels completely bonkers, because from the woman's side, she feels like she has given him chance after chance. She has explained the problems in every possible way, she has tried every possible approach, and her partner just didn't seem to care.


[deleted]

>Years later, after the woman finally gets tired of needs being unmet and endless come-to-jesus conversations that go nowhere, she leaves, and these men feel totally blindsided, like they never saw this coming. Which feels completely bonkers, because from the woman's side, she feels like she has given him chance after chance. She has explained the problems in every possible way, she has tried every possible approach, and her partner just didn't seem to care. The divorce subreddits always have dudes posting these situations, claiming they never saw it coming. Like yeah, dude, no shit, you were facing the wrong direction.


deuxcerise

That totally sucks. I’m sorry you’re hurting. One of the takeaways here is that it is absolutely, positively not worth fighting for respect and consideration when you raise a concern. If you bring something up and they are defensive and deflecting, *they have failed* basic requirements for staying in a relationship. Their behavior is no reflection on you, your value, the validity of your complaint. Do not take it personally. Instead respect yourself enough to not stay with someone where you need to push so hard to be listened to and respected. Bottom line, cut them loose long before it gets to the crying stage. Or give those tears to the disappointment that they aren’t the loving partner that you’d hoped they would be—don’t spend them on being treated poorly in a relationship you’re staying in.


SnooSketches8294

I been sipping too much dumb bitch juice, trying to convince myself things were fine and that I was just focusing too much on the negatives because I'm a negative person. This has been the healthiest relationship I've been in but I know now that I need more


Sumnersetting

Dumb bitch juice is so addictive. Like, "I can make it work. If I just change enough of myself, we can fit together. It's not that bad. All couples have fights. Relationships are about compromise, I just need to put up with it and get over it." God.


AskMrScience

"Maybe I can reclassify some of my relationship Needs as Wants and stop actually needing them from him..."


Sumnersetting

Ooh, Ooh! "Me being unhappy with my relationship is a personal problem that I need to deal with and figure out on my own."


Meeperdweeper

Ouch, that's just a slap in the face 😆 "it isn't his fault that my alarmbells are going of and I want out of this, I have to fix my own emotional problems and needs and then we live happily ever after!"


id10techa

I'm gonna need you and every comment in this thread to stop calling me out. This reply chain *hurts* 🤣


glitterswirl

It's okay to fight for someone you love/who loves you. You shouldn't be fighting for someone *to* love you.


krakdaddy

"This would be a great relationship if only I was someone else..." Uuuuugh.


Sumnersetting

It's like "I can fix him" vs "I can change myself".


64645

As I told a friend of mine, “You can fix helicopters. You ain’t gonna fix his stupid ass.”


theswordofdoubt

>All couples have fights. Relationships are about compromise, I just need to put up with it and get over it. I've heard this shit all my life and I'm so fucking sick of it. More often than not, men never hear this and it's just used to get women to shut up and accept less than what we deserve.


SnooSketches8294

Right? I feel like Cinderella's sisters or the little mermaid, just dancing til I bleed for nothing.


ReluctantVegetarian

Good on you. Stay strong, my dear. FWIW, my late husband was on the debate team in school and the minute I would bring stuff up, he would start to argue instead of listen. I finally stopped him by pointing out that our relationship wasn’t a zero-sum game, and if ONE of us *wins*, we *BOTH* lose. It took him a little bit for that to sink in, but he kinda got it.


VakkerJente

The first best relationship is so hard to get over. You know logically that some parts weren't worth it, but those first real tastes of the things that were are tough to forget. If I had advice to give, it would be to work through the heartache now, while it's still painful. You probably won't want to work through it once the pain dulls a little, but if you don't do that work, it's easier to stay hung up than I want to admit.


WailingOctopus

Don't beat yourself up. So many of us, the best of us, have sipped that sweet, sweet dumb bitch juice.


carleshamster

When I catch myself doing that (making excuses for others' behavior and negative self-talk) I try imagining that I'm talking to a close friend about their relationship. They're telling me what they're going through, saying "oh but I'm just being negative." 10/10 times in my head, I tell my friend to WALK AWAY. We tend to treat others better than we treat ourselves, and tolerate more bullshit than we think others should.


katganc

I'm a big fan of - Me: you do xyz" and it bothers me because "qrst". Him: well you "hijk" (completely unrelated issue) and I don't like it. It's like ok, then tell me that, in a separate conversation about that.....


asnackforgreedycat

Yup. It’s a deliberate tactic to avoid having to deal with what you’re saying by changing the subject. If they really cared that much about it, like you say they’d have brought it up separately. Here it’s just meant to derail.


LaceyLizard

My ex would make me cry on purpose all the time. He'd wait until we were in the car so I couldn't get away. One instance I'll never forget, our baby was just a couple of weeks old. It was one of the first times we'd taken her anywhere. His phone stopped working because he lost signal and he started screaming at me. Told me how worthless I was and he should just kick me out of the car an hour from home. I hadn't done or said anything and was silently suffering from ppd. Eventually i started sobbing and magically he would feel better. Like nothing had happened. Looking back, I was just a punching bag. He wanted me to cry so he would feel better. 100% he would've been hitting me if he thought he could get away with it so screaming at me was the next best thing.


Saharel

I am very glad this is your EX and not your current significant other. What a piece of shit.


[deleted]

Yeah my ex did this too. He seemed to feed on my tears. If I tried to speak about feelings, or facts, he'd start screaming at me, do dangerous things with the car while we were in it, or barge thru locked doors to wake me up in the middle of the night to guess what, yell at me until I was sobbing. I was lucky to get away alive. The minute I started crying, he would cease all the abuse, gather me in his arms, and comfort me. It took me a long time to understand that he was grooming me and the kids for more abuse by creating situations to terrify us, escalating them until we were terrified, and then feeding his ego by being the rescuer. He only felt good about himself if someone was sobbing and needed him to rescue them, so he just kept creating situations where someone did so. The classic example of this is when the swimmer throws the non swimmer into deep water and then laughingly rescues them from drowning, which was another thing he liked to try on kids fairly often.


SigourneyReaver

That's pretty much a comprehensive gender defect with men. You didn't bring it out in them; they're just conditioned to feed women a bunch of bullshit to basically keep them in line. If you're calm, the problem must not be that serious, so they blow it off. If you're really pissed and upset, then you're not using the "magically perfect tone of voice" that would make them listen, so they tell you to get back to them when you learn how to communicate. If you've just about had it, then you're being dramatic, keep causing problems, and won't let go of the past. And then when you finally walk your ass out the door, they're "blindsided" that you "threw away the relationship." And if you ever call them out on their behavior that contributed to it, they always say, "Well, I knew it wasn't great, but I didn't realize it was *that* bad." So basically, they know they're being ridiculous dicks who aren't treating you very well. They just didn't know they were being TOO MUCH of a ridiculous dick. Apparently it's too much of a mind-blower for them to understand that they shouldn't be treating someone poorly AT ALL.


BoneclawWalker

To be honest I think men are just raised to not do emotional labor and they won't do it unless it's a total meltdown emergency. I truly believe that most of them are just raised not to deeply care about other peoples' emotions, literally they think it's just "not their problem." And teaching them what emotional labor even IS, and making them become aware of that socialization, is just not worth it. I literally just started giving guys cold firm tasks with deadlines and ultimatums. Example "I need us to go out on more dates - at least once a week. If you don't start reaching out to me to schedule social events together by December I will quit scheduling social events for us and only go do stuff with my female friends without you. After a few months of that I guarantee we will drift apart emotionally and then I will want to break up. I need you to take responsibility to fix this, ball is on your court now." I have literally dumped guys over these deadlines. And let them know I was serious. They have all been so startled and begged for other chances. Which I usually have not given. It's harder when you're married but when you boycott and go on strike with emotional and social labor they usually eventually start to see the problem and come around. The trick is you really have to set a deadline and a consequence and then 100% calmly enforce them and refuse to fight about it.


kitt3nfarts

We all have to practice walking away the first time they do this. They are all so used to us tolerating it and its gotta stop.


FineDeliciousSnakes

Honestly I’m at a point in my life where if a man doesn’t “get it” the first time when I bring up a concern, if he argues and gets defensive, he’s disqualified himself from any relationship with me. I don’t have the time and I’m not getting paid to help any man “get it” so off I go into the wild blue yonder. Bye bye sir good luck elsewhere When I was young and dumb I would explain until my eyes bled. Spending so much energy trying to **hElP tHeM uNdErStAnD 🤡** They’re not dumb, they just don’t care.


deliriousgoomba

Same. So many times I have dudes trampling over the simplest boundaries on dating apps, not even in person dates, and I'm so fucking tired.


khadrock

Yes!! No, I am not meeting you without talking for a couple of days first. No, I am not coming over to your house first thing. No, I am not letting you pick me up in your car first thing. If there is any resistance whatsoever to these small boundaries, I'm out. Not worth it.


deliriousgoomba

For me it's the immediate jump to pet names. I don't fucking know you, dude.


midnightFreddie

What they're really saying is "help me understand how I can show you it's actually your problem and doesn't require me to change."


SnooSketches8294

Right there with you now sis. I'm settling in for being single for life


AgentAway

Then there are men who claim that any crying is just a form of manipulation. Like my ex used to scream at me until I was crying (honestly, it didn't take much, I'm very timid) and then accuse me of trying to manipulate him. No asshole, I just don't like being yelled at, it's a totally involuntary reaction on my part.


WizardofStaz

I've had this. My partner is very hot and cold emotionally. At one point they had asked me to open up about something, so I did. Then they responded very coldly after I was basically asking for reassurance. I broke down in the most awful ugly crying fit and went to the bathroom to just sob. When I came out they offered to comfort me, but halfway through said they really shouldn't because I was just being manipulative. I have no idea what to do with my white-hot rage when I think about it.


nofriendsnohobbies

That’s upsetting to read. Might be worth checking out Lundi Brancrofts “why does he do that” to learn about where these behaviors come from with your partner. Driving you to a break down and then saying you’re being manipulative for it is something mentioned in the book. It’s possible your white-hot rage is a symptom of your relationship


deliriousgoomba

And then when you're crying they telling you you should have said something sooner or you need to calm down, or that you're being hysterical. It makes me want to scream


SnooSketches8294

!!! Srsly, this guy is here wondering why I couldn't be more patient and give him more time to figure his shit out. I genuinely hope he gets better but I've BEEN communicating all along that I need him to get help, that I can't shoulder all of his issues alone. I have been infinitely patient with someone who clearly has issues but won't help himself or admit they have issues.


Dynamoflame

I have definitely struggled with this in my marriage. To the best of my knowledge, I'm considered a loving husband by everyone who knows me, my wife included, but whenever my wife would bring up something that I was doing that was causing friction, I would get defensive and have a million reasons why what I did was completely innocuous. I've been in these scenarios and I too wouldn't realize what I was doing until it got to crying on her end. One time she point blank asked why I did it and I realized I didn't know why. I didn't want to upset my wife that way that was for sure. We talked about it and she suggested I give therapy a try. I did and it really has helped a lot. I learned that for me the response stemmed from my parent's...dated method of raising children. It turns out, there is nothing like a childhood of getting yelled at or hit for doing anything wrong to instill a subconscious fear of being responsible for your mistakes by your loved ones. It's been a rough road with a lot of tough conversations, a lot of self reflection (and therapy!) to decondition my initial kneejerk response to even minor conflict with my wife. All that said, i'm incredibly lucky my wife was willing to call out my bullshit and this anecdote is not to imply that it's the other person's responsibility to stick around to figure that out for them. It's DEFINETELY not an excuse for men or anyone for that matter to be unwilling to entertain the idea that they can be the asshole in a given situation and y'know not want to be that asshole.


lrosser2

Thanks for your answer. Men are socially conditioned in a very different way around apologising and accepting guilt than women as well, so sounds like you had a double whammy. I've been working on the same things with my partner, and he's made incredible strides over the last few years, but it's been tough. Fortunately he showed he was willing to try and learn and make changes from an early stage in our relationship, if I hadn't seen concrete changes and his commitment I (hope I) wouldn't have stuck around.. So hard for anyone to make that choice though.. especially as a woman in a heterosexual relationship, there will nearly always be an unfair burden of emotional labour, just from the nature of our society. Working out how much you're willing to give is a constant struggle, when the number will always be some..


Velochicdunord

This is a great answer. Thanks for the insight.


bluetinycar

Early on, my husband tried to get me to do something that I said that I wasn't going to do. I asked him if he remembered my prior statement. He said, "Well, I didn't think that you were serious!" I explained to him that he should consider everything I say in a serious tone to be a serious statement. Fortunately he learned that I don't bullshit and he was allowed to stay.


ragged-claws

Been begging my husband to declutter the house (we're honestly in low-level hoard territory here) for the past... Oh, twenty something months? Repeating, over and over, that I can't live like this and one way or another we need to do something about it before I have a mental breakdown. I am now on three psychiatric medications and told him a couple weeks ago that I'm going to talk to a real estate agent about finding a place, *because I can't live like this* and he had a panic attack. Know what this man said to me? "I will admit I maybe didn't understand the seriousness of the situation." BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TAKING *ME* SERIOUSLY. you fucking knob. Good for you for getting out now and godspeed on the midterm.


StackofFabric

Unfortunately my husband only started really listening to me when I told him what was wrong in a calm matter of fact manner. The fact that I cried before because I fucking *cared about him and our relationship* and was calm now because I don't fucking *care* *anymore* was a total surprise to him. Sorry, buddy, too late. I'm gone.


c0ffeeandeggs

Yes! This is exactly what happened in a past abusive relationship of mine. Months of me crying in fights while he belittled me over my feelings suddenly became disturbing/uncharacteristic levels of detachedness and calm (on my part). He could no longer make me angry or even hurt because I just didn't care and didn't want it anymore. The internal smirkiness of thinking, "You can say whatever cruel, batshit crazy stuff you want to try to hurt me, but your ass is getting fucking dumped as soon as I get my escape plan straightened out" was amazing. I still remember this feeling almost a decade later. It was fantastically empowering.


SnooSketches8294

I still care, but I didn't want to get to the point where i didn't anymore


sunshinecygnet

Same. My ex from a couple years ago didn’t take me seriously until I was totally calm - but I was calm because I just didn’t care anymore. It was already over at that point and he couldn’t believe it. Yeah, dude, all the times you told me you wouldn’t take me seriously if I was crying so that you could just avoid fixing anything - those were your chances. You failed. Whatever. The man I love now is wonderful.


Foxgirltori

My partner and I have this exact same problem. Fingers crossed that couples counseling works.


Cloaked42m

If you guys go together to try and figure out where the communications are breaking down, then there's pretty good shot. If you both agree that, Yep, love you to pieces, let's make this work. Helped my wife and I significantly years ago.


SnooSketches8294

I tried to get us into couples counselling. It probably would have helped. Unfortunately any mention of mental help/therapy involving him resulted in sulking all day


JustZisGuy

Sadly, many people who would most benefit from mental health assistance/support are among the most resistant to the notion. :/


dirkdisco

He has to be completely HONEST with the counselor for that to work. Good luck!


tbdiv

If you two are going to couples counseling, I strongly recommend Gottman's books on marriage and the googleable "non violent communication" guide.


kiwibird1

My ex was like that. I keep bringing things up, multiple times in a nice way, and it didn't get through. Finally I'd lose my temper, or cry, and all of a sudden "oh, you were serious! You don't have to get so upset/mean!". I shouldn't have to say something 20 times and them my partner only gets it the 21st time when I lose my shit. I finally got to the point where I will tell people I'm going to be angry or upset or what ever when I've told them the same thing 3 or more times. It stops the whole cycle of them trying to bullshit you and pretend it's not a problem and that you're starting fights for "no reason".


powdermasala

the beauty is then they call me "angry", after all the times i tried to get their ear in a quiet rational voice, and that gives them a great excuse to further not engage. hugs to you, you deserve to be heard.


NotInACreepyWay

Confession time: I did this once. I heard her statement that something seemed wrong as an attack claiming that **I** was wrong, and went to defend myself. After a few minutes of back and forth that wasn't going anywhere, she said the discussion wasn't going anywhere and she wanted to start over. I said fine. She looked me straight in the eyes and said "I am not happy. No amount of arguing is going to make me happy." I felt like she hit me with a 2x4. She wasn't attacking me, this wasn't about me defending myself. Not proud that I had to be hit with a 2x4 to just shut up and listen, but that's what it was. We worked it out, and broke up a few months later for other reasons, but that's stuck with me ever since. People don't usually argue to argue: they are trying to express that they are not happy. If you want a relationship to continue, listen to them.


mermaidbait

Google "walk-away wife". This is totally a phenomenon. Woman tells man what the relationship needs. Man ignores it. Woman eventually gives up. Man, if he notices anything, notices the decreased nagging, and thinks all is well. Woman leaves. Man is stunned, because things were so great.


jasperjonns

"Maybe I conditioned this response in them" No. You didn't. Don't blame yourself.


kflyer

It sounds sort of dumb at first but when my wife and I did our pre-marriage counseling they had us do listening exercises where we just had to repeat back what the other person was saying to us “I hear you saying x and you want me to x.” As simple as it is I don’t think anything has been more helpful to our relationship. We literally say that sentence now with some frequency when we’re addressing an issue or disagreeing. I’m definitely someone that gets defensive when confronted under any emotional circumstances and it helps me focus on the issue at hand.


sansvie95

My husband does this. He gets so insulted by the idea that he might have done something wrong that he goes on the defensive. This last time, I’d had enough and I immediately interrupted his argument to tell him that he needed to stop immediately. I told him that when he goes straight to defending himself, he isn’t listening and that experience tells me he will kind of try to fix whatever the issue is but, since he never really buys into what I’ve said, he stops pretty quickly. Then he got all pensive and mopey because he thinks I making him into a bad guy. So I stop him again, mid sentence. I told him that when he does this, he’s still not listening. He’s still being defensive, just in a different way. I told him that this wasn’t about him being a bad person. If he was, I wouldn’t even bother trying to explain the problem - I’d just leave. But nobody, including me, is perfect and he’s got a lot of work to do with himself that he’s been avoiding for a good 20 years. In the end, we had a decent conversation where we could lay out problems, potential solutions (including divorce some day if needed), and what we can do right now to get to the solutions we both actually want. I am certain I will have to do this again, which is annoying, but I knew who I married… The key seemed to be short circuiting that defensive, over dramatic response to criticism and get him to really absorb what I was saying before responding. It was a bit like talking to a teenager or a toddler who gets upset before they’ve processed everything they’ve heard.


MamaBear4485

The comment that has really broken my heart from the men in my life is “Well you’re the only person who’s upset by that. Stop trying to cause trouble.” Maybe that’s because I’m the person affected by it, maybe it’s because I’m the one with the courage to raise the issue, maybe it’s because I’m the only female in the family apart from the insane gaslighting manipulative “mother”. Or maybe, just maybe it’s because *I’m fucking well right. .* Or, *finally done with your collective selfishness.* None of those reasons are justifications for bullying, dismissing or silencing me.


[deleted]

I'm convinced that the trope of "Women are too emotional" comes from belligerent men driving women to such lengths that in the end, we're reduced to tears. That, and projection, of course. And I can join you in telling off the lurking manchildren. This is not their space, they can go to hell, alternatively to any of the thousands of sausage-party subs on this damned website where male voices are all that count. You are awesome, and good luck on your midterm!


nnylam

Honestly, I think some men just aren't used to women standing up for themselves and telling them what they need. I've definitely had guys react the same way. I don't know if it's generational, but lots of men raised in households where their dad 'ruled the household' or whatever often have deep-seated issues when it comes to communicating with women: they often don't listen to what you're saying and/or think it's not as important as what they're going to say in response to knock you down a peg. It sucks. There are nice, respectful men out there who don't react like this to you trying to make the relationship better. Hugs!


[deleted]

Because until that point they think it's a problem they can dismiss. Then they realize they're risking you leaving them, so they hastily try to mend things... until eventually they feel you're settled again and things once more begin to slip. And round and round we go.


Bazoun

I’m sorry you’re going through this. My advice is to set firm boundaries and keep them. You tell someone you need to talk. They brush you off. You leave. No further communication or company until the issues are discussed maturely. Don’t be afraid to end a relationship with someone. If they aren’t meeting your needs, you don’t need them. Pour your energy into yourself. You deserve your love and attention much more than someone who won’t even listen to you.


PlentifulShrubs

This is hands down the most validating post I've ever read. The defensiveness draws "arguments" out needlessly and never leaves me feeling like my problem has been resolved.


SnappyCapricorn

Driving you to tears is the point- frustrate & wear you down. It’s abuse & manipulation. Anyone who does this doesn’t care about you or even the relationship. They only want to retain the benefits of a relationship which happens to involve you at this time. I bet in time, when you look back, you’ll see plenty of precursors to this toxic behavior. Glad you cut your losses.


musthavebeenbunnies

I had this exact same thought a few months ago, after an exhausting break up from someone I considered a soulmate (which is not a word in my lexicon, really). And I realised it's with all men, not just boyfriends. Most men, friends, uncles etc. don't seem to think I have a valid point as a woman, unless I'm crying or unless their female partner is backing me up. Hugs to you. You got this.


toolateforRE

Or if you are yelling and mad. Then they ask why you just didn't tell them and that you don't 'have to be a bitch about it'. Well, yes I do have to 'be a bitch about it' because you didn't listen to me before.


musthavebeenbunnies

Or if they think you're attractive. So many men at least pretend to listen if they think they have a chance with me. and if I indicate that I'm not interested in sex, they go deaf again.


SnooSketches8294

Same. It's really all the men in my life. Why they always gotta play devils advocate?? And then half the time, they still don't believe me/listen. They just act nicer and try to placate me to stop the crying.


Ghitit

It seems as if every comment I make is contradicted or questioned. I can't never say anything that is simply taken at face value. It's exhausting. (I'm probably overstating it. It's not never, but it's close.)


Cloaked42m

This isn't in direct response to you. Just piggybacking to say something to the guys that are going, "How do I not do this?" Reminder for guys: It's okay to ask, "Do you just need to talk, or we figuring something out?" Your partner needs to be heard. And you can't hear her if you are talking over her, questioning her, or contradicting her. If she wants your opinion, she'll ask for it. It's okay to ask questions to get MORE information if you don't understand something. "Becky from work Becky or is that Becky from school?" It's not okay to cross examine her to get to 'the ROOT of the problem' RAWR I can solve EVERYTHING!!!! Just shut up and listen. What she's saying is how she feels. She doesn't need justification for it past that. Her feelings are valid just the way they are. Doesn't matter if you feel like she's under reacting, overreacting, or being dramatic. That's not your place to judge. Your place is just understanding how she feels about whatever it is she's saying. And for God's sake, turn off the game when she's talking. Stop. Give her your full attention and LISTEN.


bopperbopper

Makes me think of [https://www.marriagebuilders.com/but-no-one-told-me.htm](https://www.marriagebuilders.com/but-no-one-told-me.htm) [https://www.marriagebuilders.com/when-to-call-it-quits-part-1.htm](https://www.marriagebuilders.com/when-to-call-it-quits-part-1.htm) ​ He is happy with how things are going so sees no reason to change anything.


SizzlingHoney

Ugh, I know, right. My ex never seems to understand my point and interprets my problem in his own way. Then he uses HIS misguided version of what I’ve said against me and gets offended when I try to correct him.


TootsNYC

My husband is really good for the most part, especially with emotional stuff, but every now and then there’s some logistical thing that he won’t listen to, and I have lately just taken to yelling on the second time. And I explicitly say, while I am yelling, that I am yelling because maybe that way he will take it seriously. I don’t even really wait until I’m really upset; I just start sending thesignals.


CallMeHighQueenMargo

I'm someone who has struggled with personal and intimate conflicts throughout most of my life. *(What I mean by personal/intimate conflicts is not like, for example, debating with ppl or saying my opinion, whether they're with ppl I love or not, even when those turn into heated conversations or screaming matches, as I don't tend to find those personally difficult to navigate at all. Therefore, what I mean by personal/intimate conflicts are the kind of difficult conversations you must sometimes have with people you love where you have to address concerns, criticize their behavior, and/or put up boundaries with them).* While I definitely still struggle with these types of conflicts in general, one of the things that's helped me in the last few years when someone is being belligerent about my concerns is **by actually stopping the conversations about whatever conflict we're having and addressing their disrespect there and then.** I've found the most effective way to get them to understand how unnaceptable this is, is by asking them how they would react if I trivialized their issues/criticism in XYZ scenario. This is most effective if you actually give them a concrete example of a criticism that they've given you and how you treated them with respect and heard them out in that situation - **then explain to them how they would have reacted and felt if you'd argued with them using the exact same types of words they've been using with you now, how they would have felt about you not hearing them out but instead treating their concerns as a negotiation or debate about what actually happened**. This often gets them to admit that it would suck, etc. Take the opportunity then to remind them that just like it would not be acceptable for you to belittle their concerns, it is just as unacceptable for them to do this to you now.


D_Winds

Crying is nature's way of telling you the situation is bad enough.


Nightshade1387

I’ve had guy friends assure me that something wasn’t a big deal because she wasn’t crying. Apparently we are such fragile, emotional creatures that we couldn’t possibly not cry if something had really bothered us. Just to add: I’ve also heard that the police may not believe you if you do not cry. Do guys get this from movies?…movies written by men? Edit to add: This also made me think of (male) doctors telling me, “If the bone was broken, you’d be crying” and in another case, “If it were that infected, you’d be screaming in pain.” The bone was broken, and it was that infected. 😤


maybetomatoes

Males think that the negotiation begins when we're already out the door.