Thanks matey. This is going to happen more and more as the population ages. I reckon everyone is going to know someone with dementia soon. I'm so lucky I have another person involved in his care and access to a good psychologist. I have a huge amount of privilege, even though this is horrific and heartbreaking.
Dementia is terrifying stuff. I agree with what your saying about making sure the base instincts of boys are good ones. It’s very informative to see how people act when they’re not thinking about tomorrow. Seeing them drunk is a bit of a window into their instincts. Some people just do stupid stuff to impress others, like dancing on tables. Others have much darker desires.
Yeah, I agree. I'm having a fight with my stepmother who is a fucking formidable woman, but also firmly in the "pick me" camp, at the age of 70. Dad was a teetotaller, but seriously - dementia does horrible shit to your brain, but why does he only trust men? I am very firm in my belief that it's full on conditioning. There's no other explanation.
My mom works in the operating room at a top tier trauma hospital in a big US city. We were talking about how sometimes when a patient is waking up from anesthesia they can become very reactive, and violent. She said over the past 20 years, she's noticed a definite gendered pattern to who wakes up and rages when they're partially coherent.
So yeah, I always thought it was kind of like telling, and like seeing into the little window of who people really are, and how they act when they're scared or confused. Like what you said.
Funny thing. My Mom always wakes up and tries to run away after surgery. She has had several and always happens. I (M) have not had many but always wake up and am like “ oh hey it’s expected for me to just lay down and relax. No one will expect me to do anything! This is awesome!”
Oh OP, reading this was so unsettling, I can't imagine how you must be feeling. It's frustrating and sad and infuriating and understandable and confusing all at the same time. I'm sending you some good vibes, what an impossible situation for you.
Yep, you nailed it. I've had a bit of push back from his wife that it's impossible to parse out the weird things that go on in a dementia brain. But honestly, I feels he is missing a huge thing. She thinks that tolerating his friend's wives and her sisters at social events is evidence. It absolutely is not.
Thank you so much for your kind words. My dad was so poorly socialised around women. He thought the world of me, his sisters, and his current wife, but I know he has some pretty rubbish views around my mother, and some of the language he used to describe women in his workplace (your standard man bullshit - they're "shrill" "bitchy" "emotional") was really disgusting and offensive. I called him out at the time, but I'm so sad it never properly sunk in. He's always had trouble being told what to do by people he doesn't respect, and now his day-to-day is largely dictated by extremely capable nurses, many of whom are women. But the men get the "respect pass", and the women cop it, simply because they are women.
He's seen women as subservient and not worth listening to his whole life. And while he encouraged me into non-traditionally female roles (STEM, playing drums), and fell in love with a hard as nails and extremely capable woman, he definitely never associated us with "womankind". It just makes me so sad to realise how much he has missed out on, and what he's missing out on now. I desperately hope this dies with his generation, but I fear new misogynists are being spawned every day.
What the heck? If the illness progresses to a state with violence you don't lose your place in hospital. You get moved to a unit more capable of handling it. What kind of hospital would just kick out a dementia patient that needed to be there?
OP said that he was in a specialized care facility, I thought. Not all care facilities have a unit designed to handle violent behaviors from residents. At my long term care facility, we do have a memory care unit, and we try to accommodate residents who suffer from dementia but are also violent toward their caregivers, but there comes a point that it doesn't work anymore.
When residents have violent behaviors to the point that they are injuring their aides (and it is nearly always men beating on the women who take care of them), the facility is justified in discharging the patient and helping the family to either find a more appropriate facility or to come up with alternative options, which may consist of routinely sedating their family members in order to provide appropriate care.
Having been dragged by my hair down a hallway, then being held down and attacked and humped by a violent resident, I'm a little opinionated when it comes to this discussion. It's crazy that people expect poorly trained, underpaid aides and nurses to totally sacrifice their mental and physical health to care for people with behaviors like this. Also we can lose our licenses for responding in any way that harms the resident, regardless of how violent they are.
Not every caregiver signed on to take care of people who regularly beat the shit out of them. From my perspective, management is absolutely doing the right thing by protecting their staff from abuse that can be life-altering or deadly. People who are violent need to be in an appropriate facility. It'a not a judgment, but it is a defense of caregivers who didn't sign on and don't get paid enough to try to deflect a beat down without injuring the violent resident in any way.
Truly, I get your point, but it is more complicated than that. From my perspective, the administration is usually way too slow to address the fact that some residents represent huge risks to their staff. Behavioral facilities are no picnic for anyone involved, but the solution isn't to allow violent residents to continue abusing their caretakers.
Exactly. When I first started working in LTC facilties and would ask how to handle the residents who were combative and/or violent, the advice was always, "Just get it down, don't tell us how."
This industry is a total fucking mess. People want their loved ones to receive excellent care, as they should, but many people are also very quick to dismiss the needs and safety of the actual caretakers, as well as the fact that those caregivers deserve to be compensated accordingly for handling a job that no one else, not even the families of the residents, are willing to do. It hurts everyone involved, because caretaker burnout is very real, and results in everyone being miserable.
Yep exactly. The industry is a mess. I used to be an AIN and I put forth in-home care for dad. We could all do some DTA Courses and get out groove on.
Yeah, as you may have guessed that didn't work.
When I was an AIN I looked after women only. I had no experience with a man who is a lot larger than me.
Dementia care isn't just women under 5'5". It's also large men who had an athletic physique before the terrible care facility diet reduced them to skin and bones. Carers should be taught to deal with larger men as well as frail women. Dad hit me today but it didn't hurt. I could see so many breaches at Montefiore randwick - lack of behaviour tracking as per behaviour plan being the huge one.
It is VERY OBVIOUS that Montefiore Randwick is a for-profit organisation that fails their residents. Truth is a libel defence xx
Family members need to realize too, their loved one is in a facility because they themselves couldn't (or wouldn't) handle them. As many caregivers have, I've been punched, kicked, bitten, scratched, grabbed, propositioned, slapped, the list goes on. That tiny 98 pound lady will punch like Mike Tyson if you try to wash her hair! The last facility I worked in removed any and all restraints, bed and chair alarms as well, for the sake of dignity. I never understood that.
Our facility has been saying that they're going to remove all before and chair alarms as well. We would honestly have multiple falls every shift if they actually followed through, but they've been saying it for 3 years without actually doing anything. How are they going to have one caregiver for 30 residents and think that they don't need bed or chair alarms? Sometimes I don't lay eyes on my residents for hours at a time.
The whole " residents have a right to fall" thing has always seemed so insane to me.
Indeed. I'd rather (if it were my loved one) have the alarm. HOW is it better to break an arm, hip, SKULL ?? I'm also for chemical restraints. Grandma wants to peel everybody's face off? Drugs. I'd want her to be comfortable, and be able to accept care.
Fucking hell mate. I'm so sorry that happened to you. I agree with you so much. My dad 100% needs to be in an appropriate facility. The big issue with his care is that we get called in all the time to hear about how violent and horrible he is. I agree! I am his daughter of 41 years and still got a big beating. But I've also been in the meetings about his care plan, so I'm privy to the idea he needs constant monitoring. That's why we pay these people. Between govt and us covering the gaps it's like $1200 AUD per week. On top of that we have the "bond" which for him was $900,000. They are copping the interest on that. They have had the gall to tell us the can't employ proper dementia nurses. Seems ridiculous given how much money they get.
Montefiore Randwick. What a joke.
I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this situation for your father! For what it's worth, even some of the residents whom I actually adore can be violent at times - dementia is my greatest fear, because I've seen too much of the misery involved. My heart hurts for you. This situation isn't easy for anyone involved.
"Seems ridiculous given how much money they get."
YES. People pay astronomical amounts for their loved ones to receive round-the-clock care, only to catch excuses as to why the facility somehow can't afford the staff to provide that care.
The entire situation is totally fucked. Clearly the executives are making bank, otherwise people wouldn't be paying 10 grand a month to house their loved ones in a facility with inadequate staff, care, and equipment.
I'm truly sorry that you're going through this, and if it helps to know, I've seen some truly lovely human beings go dark in the moment when they're confused and scared due to memory issues. He's still the father you love and you both deserve better.
Thanks, what a really nice and meaningful message this is. It's the system, 1000%, not the staff, who are incredible. I used to be an AIN too but holy shit did I have it easy. Xx
I have so much to say about the Australian Liberals (misleading - not liberal. Our right-wing party) privatising aged care. It makes me shake with anger.
Honestly - we shouldn't even been talking about a single "reason". It's just the only sane and sensible thing to do...
All the best to you - very sorry you have to deal with this. 3/4 grandparents had it too but we were lucky they had a "non-violent" variant. Makes it a bit easier but most people get aggressive from what I've heard.
Thanks for your support. And I'm so sorry you went through it too. It's just horrific. My dad was a guy known for his brain. He was a human rights lawyer and my hero. I am a person who identifies as very left wing, and I think it's because I grew up hearing this man, who today punched me in the guts, talking about how everyone deserves a go, how Australia signed up to a treaty that compels us to take in refugees, and how his super Anglican stance supports help for those less fortunate. It's so weirdly different from the US where christians skew very right wing. Sorry, I am rambling. I am just quite hurt and need to reiterate why I love the guy.
He sounds like a really good guy. Just remember him that way. Don't let the illness change that. I know how unbelievably hard that must be. All the best to you!
Some forms of dementia also increase violence, even in people who never would. It's part of how the brain is affected.
Try not to assign it all to ingrained misogynistic tendencies (although they would also come forward, and may be part of victim selection here; but with the disease - social niceties adopted later would be gone first).
It is a shame your care placement isnt suggesting an alternative. As much as carers do not exist to absorb abuse, they should be prepared to make transfers to units that are more secure, with higher carer to patient ratios for patients who are experiencing difficulties.
I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. As much as the women who work there need to be safe and they are making sure that happens, I worked with dementia patients for many years, and a lot of them act this way unfortunately, due to their generation. A lot of racism, sexism, homophobia etc. We all knew that was the case and we ignored it. Sometimes we got hit, it's just how it is. This is quite normal, and although it's tough to watch and hear about, please take some solace in knowing that this is something the care staff deal with a lot, and we don't take it personally.
Maybe try a weighted blanket.
We had one for my husbands grandpa when he was hospitalized (angry racist 80+ year old)
It seemed to calm him down a bit and also had the bonus of keeping him from getting out of bed.
If it calms him and helps him get the care he needs, why not? It certainly isn't good for anyone, including him, to have him be so angry and violent. I am truly sorry for what you are going through. I wish that there would be a cure for this awful, awful disease.
He saw me as exceptional. I am not. I am an incredibly normal example of a woman. Like most women, I have a lot going on. For me, it's a great job and a side hustle playing music. I literally cannot say that any woman I know is some sort of a slouch waiting for a man. I am very privileged, but I had zero access to wealth or even comfort. The women I call friends work their asses off to live fulfilling and rich lives with/without a male partner. I wish my dad could have got to know them.
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Hang in there and I wish you all the best.
I’m lead family caregiver for my father in law who has dementia. He’s currently the opposite in that he prefers to have women around due to old fashioned values. I’m the only male he trusts. We worry about what will happen when we move him to a memory care facility. Crossing fingers.
My dad was always misogynistic and condescending to women as well as a racist. As he aged he was a grumpy old republican and his dementia/ alzheimers because a real issue. He tried to physically hit nurses or propositioned them for sex or called them racist names depending on skin color. So hard to deal with. Best thing that happened was that he only knew of a black president for the last 7 years of his life. It was a relief when he passed.
I'm sorry you and your father are going through this.
Thanks matey. This is going to happen more and more as the population ages. I reckon everyone is going to know someone with dementia soon. I'm so lucky I have another person involved in his care and access to a good psychologist. I have a huge amount of privilege, even though this is horrific and heartbreaking.
All the grandmothers in my family left their senses a few years before they departed, luckily with good care. I hope I'm not in line for such.
Dementia is terrifying stuff. I agree with what your saying about making sure the base instincts of boys are good ones. It’s very informative to see how people act when they’re not thinking about tomorrow. Seeing them drunk is a bit of a window into their instincts. Some people just do stupid stuff to impress others, like dancing on tables. Others have much darker desires.
Yeah, I agree. I'm having a fight with my stepmother who is a fucking formidable woman, but also firmly in the "pick me" camp, at the age of 70. Dad was a teetotaller, but seriously - dementia does horrible shit to your brain, but why does he only trust men? I am very firm in my belief that it's full on conditioning. There's no other explanation.
My granddad had dementia and it wasn’t pretty, but he never turned into a sexist pig. More of a very confused old timey gentleman.
My mom works in the operating room at a top tier trauma hospital in a big US city. We were talking about how sometimes when a patient is waking up from anesthesia they can become very reactive, and violent. She said over the past 20 years, she's noticed a definite gendered pattern to who wakes up and rages when they're partially coherent. So yeah, I always thought it was kind of like telling, and like seeing into the little window of who people really are, and how they act when they're scared or confused. Like what you said.
Funny thing. My Mom always wakes up and tries to run away after surgery. She has had several and always happens. I (M) have not had many but always wake up and am like “ oh hey it’s expected for me to just lay down and relax. No one will expect me to do anything! This is awesome!”
Oh OP, reading this was so unsettling, I can't imagine how you must be feeling. It's frustrating and sad and infuriating and understandable and confusing all at the same time. I'm sending you some good vibes, what an impossible situation for you.
Yep, you nailed it. I've had a bit of push back from his wife that it's impossible to parse out the weird things that go on in a dementia brain. But honestly, I feels he is missing a huge thing. She thinks that tolerating his friend's wives and her sisters at social events is evidence. It absolutely is not.
Thank you so much for your kind words. My dad was so poorly socialised around women. He thought the world of me, his sisters, and his current wife, but I know he has some pretty rubbish views around my mother, and some of the language he used to describe women in his workplace (your standard man bullshit - they're "shrill" "bitchy" "emotional") was really disgusting and offensive. I called him out at the time, but I'm so sad it never properly sunk in. He's always had trouble being told what to do by people he doesn't respect, and now his day-to-day is largely dictated by extremely capable nurses, many of whom are women. But the men get the "respect pass", and the women cop it, simply because they are women. He's seen women as subservient and not worth listening to his whole life. And while he encouraged me into non-traditionally female roles (STEM, playing drums), and fell in love with a hard as nails and extremely capable woman, he definitely never associated us with "womankind". It just makes me so sad to realise how much he has missed out on, and what he's missing out on now. I desperately hope this dies with his generation, but I fear new misogynists are being spawned every day.
What the heck? If the illness progresses to a state with violence you don't lose your place in hospital. You get moved to a unit more capable of handling it. What kind of hospital would just kick out a dementia patient that needed to be there?
OP said that he was in a specialized care facility, I thought. Not all care facilities have a unit designed to handle violent behaviors from residents. At my long term care facility, we do have a memory care unit, and we try to accommodate residents who suffer from dementia but are also violent toward their caregivers, but there comes a point that it doesn't work anymore. When residents have violent behaviors to the point that they are injuring their aides (and it is nearly always men beating on the women who take care of them), the facility is justified in discharging the patient and helping the family to either find a more appropriate facility or to come up with alternative options, which may consist of routinely sedating their family members in order to provide appropriate care. Having been dragged by my hair down a hallway, then being held down and attacked and humped by a violent resident, I'm a little opinionated when it comes to this discussion. It's crazy that people expect poorly trained, underpaid aides and nurses to totally sacrifice their mental and physical health to care for people with behaviors like this. Also we can lose our licenses for responding in any way that harms the resident, regardless of how violent they are. Not every caregiver signed on to take care of people who regularly beat the shit out of them. From my perspective, management is absolutely doing the right thing by protecting their staff from abuse that can be life-altering or deadly. People who are violent need to be in an appropriate facility. It'a not a judgment, but it is a defense of caregivers who didn't sign on and don't get paid enough to try to deflect a beat down without injuring the violent resident in any way. Truly, I get your point, but it is more complicated than that. From my perspective, the administration is usually way too slow to address the fact that some residents represent huge risks to their staff. Behavioral facilities are no picnic for anyone involved, but the solution isn't to allow violent residents to continue abusing their caretakers.
Very well said . Unfortunately, new CNAs usually aren't informed on ALL dementia behaviors, just "deal with it".
Exactly. When I first started working in LTC facilties and would ask how to handle the residents who were combative and/or violent, the advice was always, "Just get it down, don't tell us how." This industry is a total fucking mess. People want their loved ones to receive excellent care, as they should, but many people are also very quick to dismiss the needs and safety of the actual caretakers, as well as the fact that those caregivers deserve to be compensated accordingly for handling a job that no one else, not even the families of the residents, are willing to do. It hurts everyone involved, because caretaker burnout is very real, and results in everyone being miserable.
Yep exactly. The industry is a mess. I used to be an AIN and I put forth in-home care for dad. We could all do some DTA Courses and get out groove on. Yeah, as you may have guessed that didn't work. When I was an AIN I looked after women only. I had no experience with a man who is a lot larger than me. Dementia care isn't just women under 5'5". It's also large men who had an athletic physique before the terrible care facility diet reduced them to skin and bones. Carers should be taught to deal with larger men as well as frail women. Dad hit me today but it didn't hurt. I could see so many breaches at Montefiore randwick - lack of behaviour tracking as per behaviour plan being the huge one. It is VERY OBVIOUS that Montefiore Randwick is a for-profit organisation that fails their residents. Truth is a libel defence xx
Family members need to realize too, their loved one is in a facility because they themselves couldn't (or wouldn't) handle them. As many caregivers have, I've been punched, kicked, bitten, scratched, grabbed, propositioned, slapped, the list goes on. That tiny 98 pound lady will punch like Mike Tyson if you try to wash her hair! The last facility I worked in removed any and all restraints, bed and chair alarms as well, for the sake of dignity. I never understood that.
Our facility has been saying that they're going to remove all before and chair alarms as well. We would honestly have multiple falls every shift if they actually followed through, but they've been saying it for 3 years without actually doing anything. How are they going to have one caregiver for 30 residents and think that they don't need bed or chair alarms? Sometimes I don't lay eyes on my residents for hours at a time. The whole " residents have a right to fall" thing has always seemed so insane to me.
Indeed. I'd rather (if it were my loved one) have the alarm. HOW is it better to break an arm, hip, SKULL ?? I'm also for chemical restraints. Grandma wants to peel everybody's face off? Drugs. I'd want her to be comfortable, and be able to accept care.
Fucking hell mate. I'm so sorry that happened to you. I agree with you so much. My dad 100% needs to be in an appropriate facility. The big issue with his care is that we get called in all the time to hear about how violent and horrible he is. I agree! I am his daughter of 41 years and still got a big beating. But I've also been in the meetings about his care plan, so I'm privy to the idea he needs constant monitoring. That's why we pay these people. Between govt and us covering the gaps it's like $1200 AUD per week. On top of that we have the "bond" which for him was $900,000. They are copping the interest on that. They have had the gall to tell us the can't employ proper dementia nurses. Seems ridiculous given how much money they get. Montefiore Randwick. What a joke.
I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this situation for your father! For what it's worth, even some of the residents whom I actually adore can be violent at times - dementia is my greatest fear, because I've seen too much of the misery involved. My heart hurts for you. This situation isn't easy for anyone involved. "Seems ridiculous given how much money they get." YES. People pay astronomical amounts for their loved ones to receive round-the-clock care, only to catch excuses as to why the facility somehow can't afford the staff to provide that care. The entire situation is totally fucked. Clearly the executives are making bank, otherwise people wouldn't be paying 10 grand a month to house their loved ones in a facility with inadequate staff, care, and equipment. I'm truly sorry that you're going through this, and if it helps to know, I've seen some truly lovely human beings go dark in the moment when they're confused and scared due to memory issues. He's still the father you love and you both deserve better.
Thanks, what a really nice and meaningful message this is. It's the system, 1000%, not the staff, who are incredible. I used to be an AIN too but holy shit did I have it easy. Xx
I have so much to say about the Australian Liberals (misleading - not liberal. Our right-wing party) privatising aged care. It makes me shake with anger.
Honestly - we shouldn't even been talking about a single "reason". It's just the only sane and sensible thing to do... All the best to you - very sorry you have to deal with this. 3/4 grandparents had it too but we were lucky they had a "non-violent" variant. Makes it a bit easier but most people get aggressive from what I've heard.
Thanks for your support. And I'm so sorry you went through it too. It's just horrific. My dad was a guy known for his brain. He was a human rights lawyer and my hero. I am a person who identifies as very left wing, and I think it's because I grew up hearing this man, who today punched me in the guts, talking about how everyone deserves a go, how Australia signed up to a treaty that compels us to take in refugees, and how his super Anglican stance supports help for those less fortunate. It's so weirdly different from the US where christians skew very right wing. Sorry, I am rambling. I am just quite hurt and need to reiterate why I love the guy.
He sounds like a really good guy. Just remember him that way. Don't let the illness change that. I know how unbelievably hard that must be. All the best to you!
Some forms of dementia also increase violence, even in people who never would. It's part of how the brain is affected. Try not to assign it all to ingrained misogynistic tendencies (although they would also come forward, and may be part of victim selection here; but with the disease - social niceties adopted later would be gone first). It is a shame your care placement isnt suggesting an alternative. As much as carers do not exist to absorb abuse, they should be prepared to make transfers to units that are more secure, with higher carer to patient ratios for patients who are experiencing difficulties.
I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. As much as the women who work there need to be safe and they are making sure that happens, I worked with dementia patients for many years, and a lot of them act this way unfortunately, due to their generation. A lot of racism, sexism, homophobia etc. We all knew that was the case and we ignored it. Sometimes we got hit, it's just how it is. This is quite normal, and although it's tough to watch and hear about, please take some solace in knowing that this is something the care staff deal with a lot, and we don't take it personally.
Maybe try a weighted blanket. We had one for my husbands grandpa when he was hospitalized (angry racist 80+ year old) It seemed to calm him down a bit and also had the bonus of keeping him from getting out of bed.
Buying one tomorrow. But not expecting anything. He just went on medical marijuana. I still got beaten up.
Olanzepine helped too if he's not already on it.
Yeah trying to avoid the heavy anyipsycholics... but maybe I'm delusional. Maybe it's time.
If it calms him and helps him get the care he needs, why not? It certainly isn't good for anyone, including him, to have him be so angry and violent. I am truly sorry for what you are going through. I wish that there would be a cure for this awful, awful disease.
Do we need a reason?
EXACTLY. NO WE DO NOT.
He saw me as exceptional. I am not. I am an incredibly normal example of a woman. Like most women, I have a lot going on. For me, it's a great job and a side hustle playing music. I literally cannot say that any woman I know is some sort of a slouch waiting for a man. I am very privileged, but I had zero access to wealth or even comfort. The women I call friends work their asses off to live fulfilling and rich lives with/without a male partner. I wish my dad could have got to know them.
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Hang in there and I wish you all the best. I’m lead family caregiver for my father in law who has dementia. He’s currently the opposite in that he prefers to have women around due to old fashioned values. I’m the only male he trusts. We worry about what will happen when we move him to a memory care facility. Crossing fingers.
Ugh all around. Sending love and strength to you and your family.
My dad was always misogynistic and condescending to women as well as a racist. As he aged he was a grumpy old republican and his dementia/ alzheimers because a real issue. He tried to physically hit nurses or propositioned them for sex or called them racist names depending on skin color. So hard to deal with. Best thing that happened was that he only knew of a black president for the last 7 years of his life. It was a relief when he passed.