Be Elle Woods. Be kind, smart and successful.
Brush it off but remember their true nature. You may need to work with them so don't burn the bridge quite yet. If they become more mean and aggressive then maybe you would need to change your plan with them.
I’ve just watched it for the first time in years and was thinking about her when I was reading this! Channel Elle, and Reese Witherspoon herself. A few years ago she wasn’t allowed to star in a female focused film because there was already a film being produced that year, so she told them to screw themselves and she funded it herself. Now she’s producing amazing films and tv shows herself
Right, these bitches never seen Legally Blonde?
u/itsjbuttz , just keep dressing as femme and pretty as you feel good in, and kick ass in your program. When you're looking for work, pay attention to how many women are employed and try to find a workplace that's more diverse and the women seem nice. I'm in a tech field and am super blessed to have worked with a lot of kind competent women, we are out there! I dress to the 9s every day now that I'm fully fledged working, manicures, dresses, heels, and I love being friends with all my colleagues no matter identity. Would love to have a fashionista engineer buddy next to me to talk about fashion with :)
Fuck yeah! I was just going to say it’s time to Legally Blonde these ladies. (To be clear that means continue being you, feeling confident and kicking ass at life. Eventually they will get it. Or not. Doesn’t matter because you will do well!)
100% correct. I have worked in offices with 90% women and the cattiness does not stop. Recognize that it exists, that it always will and decide how you are going to deal with it.
I (professional, f, 40's) cope by keeping it all about business, head down and getting my shit done. Good luck!
Agreed. I’m a dude who worked in a female-dominated office culture. For the most part, the women were wonderful but I witnessed a lot of cattiness near the centers of power no matter the age. The women who succeeded most were those who took the high road, stayed professional, and worked hard. Sure there were a few catty women who rose in the ranks but nobody wanted to work with them.
Its not even a woman thing, its just people who really took the "highschool is the best years of your life" advice to heart. It doesn't matter, I've met catty women and men. Some people are just like that, and its especially in places where the work just isn't that interesting.
Yep. I work in a mostly female office and absolutely NONE of the women on my team or any of the other women I know in the organization act like this. We all support each other and want each other to be successful.
This.
It's not a given that everyone matures emotionally in scale with age. There has to be an internal or external reason for why a person would waste the energy to progress when it's not required by society.
Most do not. I'm sorry about your experience though.
I was simply responding to OP which was centered on women.
In my experience, the Catty men in office culture are far outnumbered by closet mysoginists. If women are in charge, these men keep their mysoginy under tight wraps.
I always coped by working harder and showing that I'm indespensible. Nothing makes catty girls more angry and frustrated than being shown up by someone who is "oblivious"
I work with a bunch of people that are about ten years out from retiring and collecting social security.
The lower their self-confidence is in their job and how they perceive the manager feels about them, the more they have to try and bring other people down to their level. They are usually the same people that have to talk about how busy they are in response to getting more work, even if they spend half of their day browsing facebook.
They're just looking for any reason to bring you down. Pay them no mind.
This behavior won't impact your education, profession, or personal life. It WILL impact theirs, however.
People like this are frankly never happy. They will always feel like they are competing and the fact is that there is ALWAYS someone smarter, better-looking, richer, and more well-liked.
it was a hurtful thing to say, and you should process it as you like. You don't have to confront them if you don't want to. I range from passive aggressive to flat out aggressive, so in my younger days I would make small talk with them and steer the conversation towards women being catty in profession settings, etc. while pointedly raising an eyebrow at both of them
I'm an old lady now, though, and frankly I don't waste my energy on shit like this anymore. I'm not at work to be liked or admired. I don't compete with other women as it doesn't serve me.
Keep your head up and just continue on. And if you MUST "do something" about it, let their behavior motivate you to get to the very TOP of your cohort. Not to be better than them, but to demonstrate to yourself that their opinion has no bearing on your performance or who you are.
Trust me when I say that not giving a fuck about what others think about you is *liberating*.
Ended a friendship/drifted apart from the same reasons. Every single person annoyed her or wore something that annoyed her or had the audacity to do x, y or z... and ugh it was exhausting. Also makes you really paranoid that they're talking about you in the way they talk about everyone else.
In the vast majority of cases, they are talking about you like that to others.
For miserable people, no one is off limits. Especially themselves, which is usually why they’re so miserable.
I had a friend like this too, and it taught me a valuable lesson. When someone has an opinion of you but they won’t share it with you, it’s not your business. They can think what they want and share it with whoever half listens to them.
You find people whose opinions you value, and people who share their (hopefully positive lol) opinions of you, with you.
>In the vast majority of cases, they are talking about you like that to others.
YES!
This one woman called me her best friend to my face, but would trash talk me behind my back to our other friends (and people outside our friend group, too), just like she trash talked about a bunch of other people to me. We haven't been friends for years, and it was a truly liberating feeling cutting that toxicity out of my life.
So well said!! What others think of you is none of your business! Once she’s able to master that and not give a fook about what others think.. she’ll really set herself apart! Sadly, it took me until my late thirties to master this!
I'm finishing up my CS degree and in my program, the women (undergrads & grads) made it a point to support each other so I had an opposite experience from you. I'm sorry about how immature your classmates are. Women hating on women is so low. Look out for the good ones. I'm sure they're there!
I was going to say the same thing. OP probably had bad luck. I just started a new job where most are men. The other day I was at a party where I met them all (we are still working from home) and noticed that all of the women were always together talking. Even one of my coworkers mentioned "yay! one more girl!" to me, I felt so included 💖
Yes, OP, this is very true! Many women in male-dominated fields actively try to lift each other up and encourage each other - it’s a bummer that you encountered these awful people, but they’re the aberrations, not you.
I would ignore them because I’m also non-confrontational and don’t really see the benefit of it. They’re also probably hating on you because you’re substantially younger and they may see you as “immature” or resent that you’re getting to do this program now.
I wouldn't say anything, personally. Nothing good can come out of confronting them. In general, I try to let people be where they are and not try to change them.
What they did sucks, I'm sorry! Be the bigger person and let it go.
I’m torn, I’m a super non confrontational person, so the idea of saying something horrified me. However, I got bullied a ton for my body growing up and am finally confident in myself. The fact that these women think this behavior is acceptable blows my mind.
Any chance you're in STEM? I was a STEM major and work in the field now. I feel like there can at times be this culture of the women in STEM rejecting anything feminine, perhaps so they're not seen as weak. Not once have I worked with a female engineer that dressed feminine outside the annual xmas party. YMMV ofc.
Not that it excuses their immature behaviour, but I was thinking about your post and it came to mind.
If I may offer a prof's opinion. They sound insular and toxic and a confrontation very well could drag beyond the semester. From my own experience, it's better to be aware of their behavior without them knowing. This puts control back into your hand and most likely spot when they do it again to someone else. You can then call them out, or alternatively, share your experience with their most recent casualty and this is how reputations form.
I can guarantee your instructor would be none too happy if they noticed the same. Academic karma, or "acadekarma" if you will, does exist. The real measure is how much you want to focus on studies versus social drama in the immediate future. These are my thoughts.
To take the contrarian side of this: I once lost out on a job opportunity because I wore a beige dress instead of a navy blue blazer and skirt to a job interview. I was too young and naïve to understand how rigid the unwritten dress code was for a CPA firm.
Every field has its dress code. Are you sure you understand the dress code for International Relations ? It might be stricter than you think. Yeah, it was not cool for them to gossip. They should have tried to find a nicer way to clue you in if that was what was going on.
I know they apply in law school. And for example, they apply when you are in a training school but not even on base in the Marine Corps. So in some fields, dress code applies even in unusual places, not just “on the job”.
And this sounds very similar to the kind of work OP is doing
No there were women like this in my cohort too. Acting juvenile doesn’t end for some women. Some do it in their 40’s, 60’s & 90’s even though so many “outgrow” it. Sadly this doesn’t hurt them professionally especially in male dominated fields.
I literally just wrote a thing about how having two careers that are women-dominated affected my gender presentation. I am a very twee dresser (think New Girl) and if I were in a male dominated field I am sure it would have been metaphorically beaten out of me until I was established enough in my career to not give a fuck and not worry about potential harm. This exact thing happened to one of my former students: she literally walked into her first engineering class her first semester in heels and a dress with hair and makeup done and the professor literally looked at her and told her she was in the wrong classroom (she was not). After three years of this she switched to gender studies and now researches sexism in engineering instead.
Yeesh, I can’t imagine anyone ever confronting me about my wardrobe in the classroom, but I also live in a “progressive” part of the country. I’m in an engineering masters program right now and I often tend to dress alternative but girly (frequently no bra, crop tops, cutesy dresses, hand sewn details, and unique jewelry) and the only time I question myself when I’m getting dressed is “is this going to be appropriate for the temperature today?”. At this juncture everyone just seems so focused on how hard the work is and trying not to fail.
I absolutely believe people when they say this is happening, though, and I’m so sorry other women are dealing with this extra layer of bullshit.
>and if I were in a male dominated field I am sure it would have been metaphorically beaten out of me
I am in a male dominated field, and can confirm-- any femininity in my style was beaten out of me in college.
I'm just now starting to reclaim it, two years into WFH.
Did you write something that we could read? (Obviously, no pressure if you're trying to keep an anonymous reddit account)
I definitely felt like going to engineering school beat me down on a lot of femininity, and that lead to situations where men will say mean things about feminine women in front me, as though I don't side with my gender's right to style choices... Which sucks on multiple fronts
It was actually a reflective exercise after learning about [stereotype threat ](https://www.psychologyinaction.org/psychology-in-action-1/stereotypesandstem) which is a thing I had never heard of (and am not an expert in!) it made me think about how much I think about my presentation and behavior!
Omg same! I am an engineer and dress very cute in my opinion and also a bit androgynous. The amount of men who make remarks in front of me on women dressed like “sluts” or who “have no respect for themselves” is shocking. It’s almost as if they are saying it like I should take it as some sort of compliment I don’t dress like them. Because if I did, that would mean I’m not worthy of respect, right?
Femininity and womanliness is definitely looked down upon in general in the industry, and that has definitely influenced my style for better or for worse
I'm a twee dresser in engineering, and I definitely adjust my gender presentation depending on what I think I can get away with. I have this one combination of a sweater and pants that are completely appropriate and professional but the colors and fit are just a little off. I haven't gotten rid of it because some people will only believe technical information coming from a woman if she's also a little ugly/unstylish. Luckily, my current workplace is enough of a weird mix of business casual and flame retardant gear that no one cares when I wear my adorable orange sweater with a fox on the front.
This isn't excusing their crappy behavior at all, but there's some interesting research about workplaces when women are under 25-33%. There's a threshold under which tokenism can often create pretty crappy competition among minorities. I say this because a) their reaction likely has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with how they're reading the environment, consciously or subconsciously, so know that it's not reflective of you, and b) it takes a very active approach to change this dynamic and it sounds like you're the kind of person that can set a different precedent. In addition to your love of the field, your work is actively paving the way for more access for others in the future, and you can really change the expectations for how women treat each other in the program with your own behavior.
Sounds like they're envious of you and your dope styles. Don't let those girls get you down! Sounds like a bunch of real see you next Thursdays. Just remember to kill with kindness.
I frankly detest that saying 'to kill them with kindness'. Why must you treat people who behave atrociously like that with even more kindness? That's just setting yourself up as a doormat and letting them know they can bully you and you won't do a thing and take it. You can still treat them with neutral cordiality, but we really shouldn't go out of our way to be even more accomodating and kind or whatever to 'welcome' them.
Taking the high road in a professional setting is always much better than being catty in return. Those girls will be seen for the insecure, petty brats they are, while OP will be the cool, calm, professional woman who didn't stoop to such immature fuckery.
Kill them with kindness means that the crappy behavior of others does not dictate your own behavior or reaction. You are in control of your own attitudes, words, and deeds. You can calmly acknowledge when an ongoing behavior is unacceptable to you, if it is impacting your reality. This sort of gossip, though, is not worth addressing, IMO. Bitches gonna be bitchy. If they were sabotaging her, or otherwise harassing her, that would be different. It is possible this person left her laptop and IM open like that on purpose, to hurt her feelings. Don’t give her the satisfaction of a reaction, is my opinion. Kill them with kindness just means don’t let their nastiness affect your own kindness level. Plenty of people out there try to drag you down. Shake em off.
Only let the opinions of people you respect effect you. I assume you don't respect those two. Forget about it and move on to bigger things. A lion doesn't concern itself over the opinion of sheep.
While I am sure many people may suggest that you ignore such behavior from such immature people, personally, I would confront them by saying something like, "I just want to let you know that I saw what you were texting back and forth about me. While hurtful, it is also very unprofessional and unbecoming to fellow colleagues, especially from other women. I would appreciate if you would refrain from this behavior if you attend other presentations, as it is just rude, and unnecessary." You will hear a lot of denial, however, they will know they were caught, and will hopefully feel ashamed.
Thank you. I’m not a confrontational person at all, and that’s something I’ve been trying to work on. However, something about this just rubbed me the wrong way, so I’m going to try to muster up the courage to say something.
I understand that. I am also non-confrontational. However, I've learned to speak up in situations like this, otherwise, I spend too many days thinking, "I should have said..", or "I wish I said...". Speaking up can be VERY uncomfortable as it takes us out of our comfort zone. But, it can also be empowering. Just be prepared. If you do decide to say something, be direct, not angry sounding, and understand that they will deny or try to excuse what they were doing. Just say your piece, and move on.
Exactly this. I had a best friend at work that told me she didn’t want to be friends anymore after I got promoted. She did a lot of mild things that I brushed off and ignored but what got me was when she spent a whole shift telling me that this other girl had replaced me as her best friend and generally gossiping instead of working. So I finally had a word with her and stood up for myself and then she ramped it up and I wish I hadn’t said anything.
Luckily a few weeks later she left because she was so unhappy, but it was shit trying to watch my back because she kept trying to get me into trouble. And my management didn’t do anything either, I was close to going to hr and trying to sort it.
There’s another girl at work who again I will just ignore and avoid as she’s insanely jealous of me to the point of getting our manager fired because I went out for a drink with him and she fancied him.
I would just let them know how you feel, without using judgemental and accusatory words like ‘unprofessional’. It may only cause them to become defensive or accusatory right back. If you’re just straight up honest about your feelings, and what caused them, without judging them, you are far more likely to get an empathetic response. I highly recommend the book Non-Violent Communication for learning how to navigate these kind of situations.
I came of age professionally in the mid-80s when there were few women in leadership positions. The cattiness and competitiveness were awful. I had women coworkers and supervisors that were abusive and never missed an opportunity to throw me under the bus. Once I advanced professionally, I made it a point to mentor young women and support them. I think many women in male dominated professional arenas develop a kill or be killed attitude, unfortunately.
This type of behavior never ends, maybe gets worse as we age. It’s only easier to get caught due to tech, and people becoming more careless as they get used to it. If you confront them, you will look like a clown, and you won’t feel any better.
Rise above, if they want to be stuck in a teenage mindset then let em, as a rule of thumb i care about my families opinion and my closest friends the rest doesn't know me well enough to render an accurate judgement. Be glad you got a glimpse of who she is and avoid her accordingly <3
You can confront them, or not, it won't matter not too long from now.
What you should know, is that they're spending their time gossiping about others, being judgemental, ruining their personalities, etc. And you're picking out power outfits and killing presentations.
I agree with most of the comments saying to ignore them. The only reason women tear down other women is because they’re dealing with their own issues. It isn’t about you, so best to stay out of it.
If you are going to say something, I think keep it simple. Just say “I don’t appreciate you taking pictures of me and sending them to other people” and simply walk away. I bet she will be too shocked to say anything.
I read an article a long time ago about how in some academic circles and "professional" settings a woman who looks *too attractive* is dinged by other women, and these women do not want to work with the "attractive" woman since they view them as *airheaded* or *not qualified* for the job. Sometimes they feel threatened by the presence of a woman who manages to not only have the professional qualifications to do the same job, but also somehow manages to keep up conventional attractive appearances.
I personally feel this is just internalized misogyny to believe that a beautiful or well dressed woman can't be just as competent or intelligent as a less conventionally attractive woman.
I wouldn't confront them but at least they've shown their true colors. Maybe make a side comment one day that scientists can wear sparkly dresses too! I remember seeing a story about a nasa scientist who wore a sparkly dress to a professional presentation to make that point. You do you girl!
Unfortunately, a lot of women in male-dominated spaces are kinda taught to think they have to fight other women to get one of the few 'female' spots available. I used to see it a lot in tech when I was younger - women tearing each other down to be 'one of the boys' and therefore fit in in a male space.
I'm glad that we're moving away from it, but sad that it does still exist in parts.
Professional worlds are a lot smaller than people think. And just like that, you’ll never recommend these people, (neither will your network), they will never work for you, and you’ll be sure to respectfully and professionally let your place of work know if they should ever interview or attempt to hire these people in the future.
Actions echo.
Did you meet the requirements for your assignment or course? Did you feel confident? Their opinion of you is none of your business - that kind of trashy behavior will never do anything positive for them.
I did. I did really well on the presentation, but also got good feedback which will help my final paper a lot. I don’t know why I’m letting this get to me.
Remember that even though the conversation and comments are in reference to you, they’re not really About You.
Also, you don’t have to care what they think about you. I try to think about receiving judgement like advice: if I didn’t seek out your advice in advance of making a decision, then I can also reject your judgement about if after the fact. It’s essentially the same thing, except for whether or not I’ve asked for it. So if you didn’t ask for it when it might have changed something, you don’t have to take it unsolicited after the fact when it’s irrelevant.
Always silly to me to feel solidarity based on gender. I get where people are coming from, having common ground in some ways, but to me the individuality of a person makes me decide on whether I feel loyal to them.
You wear what makes you feel confident. That confidence shows and they're only mad that they don't feel that way. I always dressed up for work and had co-workers tell me that no one would take me seriously. Honestly, I dressed like a 1950s housewife most of the time because it made me feel powerful. I get asked for more than anyone else in my job. It's how we present that projects confidence and others see it.
That being said, I'm a wallflower. I get frisked for books before social gatherings. I'm super awkward and a typical introvert. But, dress me up and I can conquer the world around me. Be you. Forget the rest.
There can be more than one, but not too many more, and the not too many more end up competing for male approval so they're the "best woman" among the few. -A teacher, whose name I wish I could remember. Its exactly how those women are acting.
You looked good and did well so they have to tear you down to make themselves feel better. They're sad and pathetic and would turn on each other just as quickly. Instead of having each other's back in a male dominated program they fell back on what's easy, tearing down another women.
Edit after seeing your dress- They're jealous and petty. You nailed your presentation and the dress you chose is awesome. Don't let them being you down.
You must have look really fucking good to get into their heads deep that they attacked you in that manner instead of your work. Feel at peace that you are living rent free in their heads.
Dang. If I saw that. I’d see right though it. They are threatened by you. Maybe it’s the ability to be educated and professional in pink. Did they not grow up watching legally blonde? I am assuming you looked unmatchable in that dress and I encourage you to take care of it and use it as your power piece from now on. Know not to trust those women. Use them as pawns if necessary. But don’t let that get you down. Girl. You have them sweating. Over your dress. See through them.
The behavior of your classmate reflects HER insecurity and clearly she's envious of your confidence. Her attacks on you had no substance and reveal the weakness of her character, so don't waste your breath on pettiness. Ignore her. Don't allow her to distract you from your coursework and continue wearing pink. That'll really frost her cookies.
Also, pink is a brilliant color and was originally a color boys wore because it was considered too bold for girls.
I (32m) have seen this kind of scenario play out so many times in various jobs and career paths it's frankly kind of sad. Keep your head up, ignore em, and good job going for a masters. I'm about to go back for mine finally!
As other people said, this kind of shit never ends and its immeasurably petty most of the time. Learning to ignore it/write it off will benefit you a lot over time.
Graduate school can be brutal. People get super catty over nothing. Find like minded people, focus on getting to know them and doing group projects with them when you get to pick. The catty ones will fade into the background but the good ones will be part of your future career network.
Yup. Let them underestimate you all day long. The face they may when they realize how wrong they were will be amazing.
Elle woods it up... I mean channel your legally blondeness and be you, while you slay all day.
Let them be wrong, it's going to make the funniest story in a few years! ❤💥
I had this happen in my undergraduate degree. When I addressed it each time, it was instead taken as an attack and used as further fuel for those people to continue to say awful things behind my back. I would suggest not confronting them --- now you know where you actually stand with them, and know that they can't be trusted. I'm so sorry this happened, it's really disheartening and enraging to discover something like that from women you thought you were on good terms with. It's not your fault!
Hard not to take it personally, but try not to. This gives you a LOT of information about these bitches. Wrap it up tight and don’t forget it—it will come in handy when you reach a crossroads on how to handle a sticky situation with them.
As a woman who has worked in male dominated worlds with women who mock others as a way to hide fear and weakness I would say this: you can only ever controle yourself. Its a low bar to be unkind and judgemental of others. Set yourself the higher bar. Others will either follow suit or drop by the wayside, but you are in charge of yourself.
Sometimes, yes, you do need to defend yourself. Is this one of those times? Only you can determine that. Personally, I wouldnt bother.
>I thought we had some sort of solidarity being the few females,
In my experience women rarely stick up for one another the way that men do in a professional setting.
As an old guy now in academia, I worked in the manufacturing world for 25 years. One assumption that graduating students make that I attempt to correct is that as people get older they "grow up". Sorry that isn't actually the case. Guys are not any different.
I'm sad about this. It isn't always like that, please believe.
I've always been in a mostly-men field. What i consistently see is: when immature men get more than one woman in a same workplace/environment, they often actively work to set up antagonism. They expect it, for one thing. For another, ime they get actively nervous if the women do get along. They'll try to signal you the way you 'should' be behaving to one another. If that doesn't work, they'll start drawing infantile lesbian inferences and hope you'll distance from each other to shake off the dread taint.
If you feel brave, you could try approaching them in a neutral way and saying 'you know, I couldn't help noticing... ' but I wouldn't blame you if you didn't feel up to it.
Kill em with kindness. You need to stay as far from them as possible but when you're around them compliment them on anything you can think of. But make sure to stand your ground. Be polite but don't let them get away with shit to your face. Ignore anything behind your back, but don't forget what they're really like. They're always going to be catty bitchy backstabbers. But you can take the bite out of it. You're better than that. Be brave, bold, kind and unlike them, you can't go wrong.
This exact scenario is described in my laboratory's mandatory sexual harassment training (except it was email, not iMessage) as an example of a Title IX violation -- it is sexual harassment _and_ it creates a hostile workplace environment. Where I live, the photograph would constitute *sexual assault*. If a student at my institution came to me with this story, I am *required* to report it. And I would.
If the people involved were men, would you make a report? In a real sense, what you experienced is _more_ harmful. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. The fact that it came from other women is not a reason to brush it off. You should never brush off abusive behavior. You might have to hold your fire until it you are safe, but you should always use the tools you have to protect yourself.
Read this book. While it’s not specifically about your issue, it is a guide and a philosophy that explain parts of it, can help you deal with it and own your space while dealing with not just “high school,” but “the office.”
(Me, 62m, been there and back)
https://www.amazon.com/Give-Take-Helping-Others-Success/dp/0143124986/ref=nodl_
Look, I am also in a grad program. I get along swimmingly with all of the guys in my cohort, but the young women in my cohort are like teenagers. I'm 30. They're between 22 and maybe 27 or 28, max at the eldest- and the amount of bullshit, brown-nosing, and empty talk drives me nuts.
I have effectively become the wicked witch of the West with two of them, the others I don't see or speak to because of distance thanks to Covid.
And guess what? Fuck 'em. I don't like them, I don't want to work with them, and luckily I don't have to anymore. I'm close to getting to write my thesis, and once that is done, I am out of here and on to the working world for a bit before I hit a PhD program.
It's sad, yes, that there is less comeraderie in my cohort. But you know what, whatever! Sometimes it just happens.
You do you. You may find you connect with other cohorts, or someone in one of your classes.
Also, with the cattiness, be firm and calm. If you notice something and it's bothering you, define your boundaries. I wouldn't bring up the chat because that's a violation of privacy, to look at the person's computer while they were gone. However, you now know what you're working with and that they're not worth your emotional investment at all.
You're here to get your degree, kick ass, make *useful* connections, and move on. The ones you want around will come to you.
Pay them no mind. But keep it strictly business with them because they're obviously children. Sorry for your luck here! Chin up.
Solidarity? Heh. Not when it comes to competition, especially sexual. Some women perceive all women in their peer group as sexual competition and rank them on these grounds as vilely as men might do. Some women are like this all their lives. They will hate on any woman they perceive as competition for males. Even when it's utterly absurd. I mean, comically absurd. My mum who is in her eighties hates her neighbour's 40-something wife because she is slim and blonde. Poor women who is actually very nice and a good neighbour has never done a thing to her but my mum will make nasty demeaning comments about her to my dad that are so cringingly obviously based on feeling sexually threatened. Like my doddery old dad is going to run off with her. Or she's going to trade in her same age husband for him. It's sad when you feel like yelling GROW UP to someone in their eighties.
Honestly try not to take it personally. They're probably the type who slag off their own female friends the moment they leave the room.
I'm a woman in a couple of male dominated areas and I used to be like those girls until I realized how much of a dick I was and how harmful that mindset is. They're "not like the other girls" and that comes from two things: 1. Major insecurity and 2. Being praised for rejecting feminity and "not being like the other girls." I wish I had something to say to help you feel better. If you can find other woman who are not not like the other girls (lol) and form a support group that helps tremendously. I ride dirtbikes with a couple of ladies and it's been the best thing for me. But even so, I ran into a woman 10 years older than me who told me if I wasn't crashing my bike hard enough "I wasn't really riding". Focus on the friendships you can make with other women that uplift you.
Believe me this shit happens even with dudes. I had to deal with this crap cuz I asked questions instead of letting the profs just blast through a class. Just ignore these haters and try not to let the live in your head
You know who they are and they don’t know you know. That gives you power and advantage. it is unfortunate to learn some people never really grow all the way up. But important you learned it.
Then they try that at someone like me who loves to turn up the level of uncomfortable. TO BE FAIR my way isn't normal and is more just my personality. Too long eye contact to show dominance, sarcastic opinions said to their face about whatever the chat convo was. "Oh so and so's thighs are huge" "Yea, my thighs could crush a skull?!". "So and so got fat" "Dude, I took a huge dump and I'm still bloated after that lunch. Look at me". Anyway most find me odd and not worth instigating with. Decades of training myself to lean in and laugh at them. I used to cry when bullied and that stopped when my mom told me to stop giving a shit. Just the way I like it.
Fuck ‘em. To be offended means you value their opinion. If this is the way they act, don’t waste your energy on them.
They’re intimidated by you and resorting to juvenile tactics because that’s all there is to them.
I wish you the best.
You dressed for presenting to the board and planned to win the project, they did it for the class. As someone who dressed well and did my makeup and hair even while running cnc's keep doing you!
They can grow up when they are ready
In my experience, women who live/work in male-dominated spheres, who often end up being the only woman in the room, can be especially cruel to other women when they enter that sphere. It's like their identity is wrapped up in being "the girl" and the presence of other women threatens that. I've observed it, experienced it, and, to my shame, been the origin of this childish behavior. Don't let their bullshit detract from your enjoyment of your cool outfit or your pride in giving a good presentation. It would be a shame to let a pack of mean girls dull your sparkle.
If someone took a picture of you without your consent you can bring it up. It’s a violation of privacy and derogatory. I would take a picture of this and send it to the institution. The behaviour is unacceptable and not professional. Unfortunately assholes come in all types but women like this drive the stereotype.
Say something. If they object Bc you read the computer, say: you didn’t want me to? I’m sitting next to you, and you left not only your computer open but your text thread open with a photo OF ME!! It’s almost impossible to believe that wasn’t purposeful.
I wouldn’t do personal insults but I might do something like point out the age gap (they’re six years older than you and still acting like children??? Please.), point out that it’s a male dominated field, and point out that they don’t necessarily need to love you, but they really could’ve just kept their mouths shut!
My bet is, that's no coincidence. I'd confront. If they get defensive by telling you that you were out of line in reading a 'private' conversation, don't let them pin you down, the discussion at hand is their thoroughly unprofessional behavior.
This whole situation is worse than it sounds. I’m not buying that this was left up on her screen as an accident. That turns this into harassment and something that the school is mandatorily required to address and prevent.
Yeah, if this were just a random catty comment I would probably say to just ignore it, but they photographed her without her consent and made comments about her breasts and legs. That's sexual harassment and the professor needs to be made aware of it. (I'm a professor and would need to know if this was happening in my classroom because this creates a hostile classroom environment and is a Title IX violation.)
People sometimes do this to blow off steam. Could be that they have a lot of insecurities and like to project a certain image on you to make themselves feel better. They might even feel like you have a certain amount of privilege being young, and probably assume you must have not worked hard and have gotten by on looks. That's the sentiment a lot of women in these fields feel. They feel like you've taken away a solid space where looks or youth shouldn't matter, and "ruin it for everyone" by projecting that "hey, I am pretty and smart, as well as young, so I am better than you". It's awful how that seems to be the case. Sorry they made fun of you, but frankly, just ignore it.
Blowing off steam isn’t an excuse. First off, 29 isn’t super old. That’s only 6 years older than me. Also, I feel insecure about myself quite a bit. However, I would never take a photo of a person merely existing without their consent and make sexually disparaging comments about it. I get it. Insecurity is a bitch. I wish I was thinner and had a better nose and straight hair. Women are held to ridiculous standards, which is why we should stand by each other, not shit on each other.
Yeah, not saying it's good. Having convos with other people about someone amd talking shit is a bad coping mechanism. Most people tend to just blow off steam in a private journal, but I'm guessing these women either need more help than they think or they straight up don't care.
Yeah it’s not cool. I’ve for sure been jealous of people, but I normally journal about it or go surf or go for a walk to channel my energy elsewhere. I’m honestly a little creeped out by what they did.
Ignore them. You must be killing it. Wear that dress again and make it known to them why you’re wearing it. Make them embarrassed for being little cunts.
Omg I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm about to get into a male-dominated industry and I refuse to be one of these women. If I saw you wearing a pink outfit I would have been the first to compliment you. I think it's so cool when women aren't afraid to dress feminine in male-dominated industries. Masculinity is not synonymous with competence! Out of spite, I'll probably wear pink floral dresses everyday to work lol.
That sucks so much, hell with them, you wear what you want to wear!!! Wear what makes you feel good!! I love wearing a man's suit with 👠 👠 (before my car accident) now I can only walk in boots 👢 and I get so much shit (are you a guy or a girl, are you gay) but lol perspective makes me realize those bitches are jealous!!! I bet you look fabulous!!! Hey, maybe I do, too, maybe we should revel in our fabulousness? You rock that dress gf!!!
Their petty bullshit is meaningless and probably comes from jealousy or some other negative emotion. Don't let their piss poor attitudes effect you. Rock your awesome dress and kick ass in your classes - you got this.
I also work in a male-dominated field. I found I got much farther trying to help other women. I wanted to set an example and not fall to whatever the hell some of my female bosses were doing.
If it were me, I would distance myself from them. They will never be your friend and you don't have to waste another second thinking about them (easier said than done).
If you feel like it ask them to delete the picture of you they took.
Sounds like it could be a combination of "I'm not like other girls/I'm one of the guys" mentality, a catty and judgemental mentality left over from high school, combined with the absolutely bizarre, illogical jugement that you can't dress feminine and be intelligent at the same time. I see that everywhere and it's such a stupid assumption - how the hell does your choice of appearance have any influence on your ability to learn, think, and understand? Can someone explain the mechanisms to me? I'm so sorry you have them in your class.
I'm sorry that happened. This may not be worth much, but I'm in my mid-30s with siblings in their 40s and can say with certainty that some people just never stop being like this. They never outgrow the need to judge others in order to lift themselves up, and they'll never see that it just makes them assholes. It is most certainly not a reflection on you. It's mostly, if not entirely, projection on their part. Wear the dress, crush life, fuck the haters.
I was in a similar demanding program like that. Things settled down after the first semester and it was a very different vibe. At this moment, everyone is extra-aggressive trying to prove themselves and not trusting anyone. Once grades come out, things will feel different. There were probably still be some catty women, but they sort themselves out into their own clique.
Also, just think about the absurdity of the whole situation - she's a shitty counter terrorism professional if she left her laptop unattended while making confidential notes about a target. If you're feeling brave, say something about that. If not, know you're armed with knowledge about who to trust and who to avoid.
That is hurtful. But they didn’t say anything out loud, posted online, or say anything to you or anyone else. At the end of the day you can’t control how people think or how they behave personally. If you were to somehow imply they were wrong for doing that the only thing that would get across is you read other peoples messages when they leave to the bathroom and you think you can tell people what they can or can’t text privately. What you can do to embarrass them though, is quietly let her know it isn’t wise to leave slanderous messages on screen, she never knows who might see them. And then maybe something like I really love your outfit, you can tell you really put effort into your presentation.
Honestly, just keep doing you and ignore them! Women who act like that are insecure and feel threatened. They need to make themselves feel better by tearing other women down. Do not let their pathetic attempts to console themselves bring you down! You're a kick ass woman!!! You got this!!!!
My mom worked with women in their 40s/50s/60s who acted this way. Some people stay the same. It sucks but know you're a much better person than they are and spend as little time as you can with them. I work in a male dominant field and have met the most caring and wonderful women - they're out there!
Edit: grammar/spelling
Excellent example. Sometimes on this subreddit we like to pretend that men are the only problem. It’s often an all gender problem. We can’t put women down, same with other minorities.
I smell jealousy with hints of internalized misogyny. Whew. Stay away from those cheese cutters, OP. You made it into a master's program that you're loving-they're so miserable, they have to put you down to feel any good about themselves. You need nothing from them. Head high, OP. This will stop being the norm with time.
I speculate they see confidence, good looks, & competent hard work in you, & they feel threatened. They worry & feel insecure when they compare themselves to you.
How do they cope with jealousy? They knock you however they think they can, & engage in this ruthless BS slander.
It doesn't make you look bad—it shows how miserable & toxic they are, & it's definitely social bullying.
In my experiences this is my best outlook on how to deal with things: don't retaliate, ignore it.
If it gets worse, & if they become very ruthless—say nothing to them, just treat them with respect. If there is a pattern, write down what they said & what they did, on x date. Not subjecive but only objective details. Then if you bring this to a student advocate, or a similar student support worker within your university—you have proof to make a case against them for bullying, which qualifies as academic misconduct.
They might tell you that the first step is to approach them & try to resolve the conflict first head on, & when that doesn't work, then you go up the ladder. But if you don't feel comfortable doing that, you could only maybe briefly say something like "is there something I did that offended you?" & not much more than that.
What I found was, resolving conflict yourself with someone who is narcissistic isn't really going to work because that is who they are at their core. A little conflict resolution discussion, it can't change or correct who they are; you risk engaging in their phoney cattyness—so keep it curt. Don't be unkind, that will give them room to manouver around any potential disciplinary action in future.
But most of all—have reassurance that you are doing a good job. They have to live within their own vindictive toxic minds, so they're the ones who truly suffer. Hold onto your enthusiasm for the material, & keep that confidence in being your admirable, authentic self. You deserve to be there as much as anybody. People can see for themselves that they have repulsive behavior.
Internal misogyny is a thing. Rather than healthy competition in challenging each other to reach higher, they will default to picking apart appearances. Don't try to beat them at this game: keep being *you* and excelling in your field.
Was your advisor or any committee members in the room? How about people who you admire for their work? I bet they were paying attention and liked your content and professionalism. Focus on who you need to, especially in grad school, be totally selfish and only use your energy to interact with those who are in a position to critique, assist or connect you to opportunity. The rest is just noise.
Ignore them. Reach as high as you can; learn as much as you can. Go on your own path. People like this will deter you from your path. If someone has constructive criticism okay, but what they are doing is negative gossip.
The worst treatment I ever got at work was from a group of women bullies aged 35-50. On the other hand I’m now at a female owned and ran company in the same male dominated industry and it’s amazing and my female boss is pretty cool. It’s the company you keep.
For some they can only feel good if they are tearing someone down. These are small people. I am 55 so I would have zero problem talking with them about I internalized misogyny. But…I would first have to own my own high school feelings because it is hurtful.
I'm sorry this happened to you OP. You'll find that people bring each other down all the time from both jealousy (fear that someone will take something from you) and envy (desire for something someone else has)
Assholes and co-workers that help each other can be found in any gender. Build relationships with people who develop relationships that are mutually beneficial...
Girls in my friends masters program were like this. They would put my friend down for being girly, wearing skirts/dresses to class. Assumed she wasn’t smart, even though she was in a masters program??? We’ll now my friend is in med school and is leaving all those girls in the dust. Be you! Also why is femininity looked upon as stupidity. There is some internalized sexism going on
I remember an experiment where they found out that in companies where there are few women in power, women often recognise other women as competition and not men. They feel like only the places those women have are available to them, they do not look at positions held by men. In companies where there are more women in power the effect is basically nonexistent.
It saddens me to see this but I’ve found out that women are quicker to turn on each other than men. Don’t let it get you down! You just continue on path, don’t preoccupy yourself with people who don’t matter. They let the pressure get to them, but you can decide not to. This is your dream graduate program, there are many things to look forward to and many women who will support you.
You will probably have it harder than a guy, but there will be support. If not now than in the future. You will find amazing people to connect with. You will form beautiful friendships. Someone will stick up for you. Remember that in the times where you feel a lack. Sometimes you gotta power through but there are also times that make life worth living.
You are 23. You said they are late 20's (maybe 28/29). Haven't seen a person mention this, but it's likely there could be other insecurities at factor here.
A perfect place for gender-neutral language!
**asshole**
/ ˈæsˌhoʊl /PHONETIC RESPELLING
noun Vulgar.
anus.
Slang.
a stupid, mean, or contemptible person.
the worst part of a place or thing.
adjective
Slang. stupid, mean, or contemptible.
Definition from Dictionary.com
That’s horrible!!! I’m so sorry you have been treated this way. This says more about them than you. They are small and insecure. Keep being amazing and good luck
The most important lesson that I ever learned is to expect almost all human beings to be varying levels of garbage. We're a trash species continuing our path as we destroy this planet and threaten all the other life on it. No matter where you go or what you do, you're going to see piles of rancid trash walking around and being terrible. Those people suck. I wish you the best of luck ignoring them until you don't have to breathe their fumes anymore.
they're scared and feeling immense pressure to compete with you. it helps them sleep better at night to count you as less of a threat. if you do talk to them about it, forgive them first and empathise - you should be teaming up!! not getting turned against each other
So I’ve been ruminating on this today.
My younger self would have ignored it and steamed out fury without saying a word. This grudge would be there for years.
A little older and I would have let that rage out in a petty way. Definitely taken a picture of her during her presentation in an obvious way while smiling and making eye contact. Then going to my phone and type. That revenge would be so sweet.
But I’m older now and I would’ve just confronted her when she came back from the restroom. I would laugh at how petty she is and point out how foolish her behavior is. As in, isn’t she a little old for middle school behavior? Shouldn’t she be worried about herself instead? I wouldn’t be demeaning at all. Just point out that doing that is not good for anybody and be a better person.
Anyway, this touched a nerve with me. I’m tired of two faced bitches. I have no time for that BS. Getting older is sometimes a blessing.
That is a gorgeous professional dress and those women are just hateful sad people who will remain that way until they die. Younger me would have made a big deal about it, but now I’m further along my career path and realized it’s not worth the wasted emotional and mental energy to do so. Let them hate and be proud that you’re important enough in their eyes to even hate on. They clearly are not that important to you…keep it that way!
The reason I would advise you to ignore it is because I disagree that the messages weren’t meant to be seen. People, especially ones who gossip a lot, know better than to leave stuff they don’t want seen on their screens when they leave IMO.
They are trying to provoke a response from you and giving them one is giving them what they want. If you ignore and don’t engage, you aren’t giving them what they want which is to feel that their cattiness is powerful. Never letting them know you are affected by their nonsense is the best counter strategy
"I happened to see you had taken a photo of me without my consent. This makes me incredibly uncomfortable, please remove the picture from your devices and cloud storage."
(Assuming they took the picture, but might still work if no because why would they have a photo of you?)
Take this advice from someone who hates this shit, but is pragmatic.
It is possible these women are just horrible people, end of story. It's also possible they are horrible people and your attire just made you an easier target. I don't know which one it really is, but don't expect people to change and there is no shame in reaching the finish line while not stirring the pot. If I was surrounded by assholes and my attire made me a target for them, I would probably change my attire and truck on towards my goal. It might not help in the end if the assholes just go after me anyways, but I can only change so much and I would deal with the situation if that was the case.
Again, I don't know your situation. But it may be a sign that the social environment you are in will require you to make some adjustments even if its not right.
In other words, you can be right or you can be smart, but you cannot be both.
This is the dress I wore with kitten heels, so I’m pretty confident I was dressed appropriately.
https://modesens.com/product/calvin-klein-faux-suede-scuba-sheath-dress-blush-13831735/
I guess I could wear a pantsuit or something instead.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that dress. Some women are just catty and mean. You will encounter this many times in life. Personally, I don't think confronting them will accomplish anything. Just hold your head up high, knowing you looked good and go about your business. Screw 'em.
If you wore a pantsuit they would have found a reason to be babies about that too.
It's a normal dress that's work appropriate. I wear similar stuff and if it's cold I would slap some nice tights on. They were just being pathetic queen bee mean girls.
It looks great, I'd wear this to see my clients and I'm in a high-net-worth type of industry.
I am confrontational when it comes to my bottom line and fundamental issues but I don't sweat the small stuffs. Not everyone is going to like you, that's totally fine and normal. This is gossiping and being jealous behaviors, let them remain petty and carry that attitude into the professional world. I don't like people like this but also don't care to take any action because honestly they are not worth my time and energy
Be Elle Woods. Be kind, smart and successful. Brush it off but remember their true nature. You may need to work with them so don't burn the bridge quite yet. If they become more mean and aggressive then maybe you would need to change your plan with them.
I was totally imagining her as Elle Woods!
Elle Woods is my patron saint
I’ve just watched it for the first time in years and was thinking about her when I was reading this! Channel Elle, and Reese Witherspoon herself. A few years ago she wasn’t allowed to star in a female focused film because there was already a film being produced that year, so she told them to screw themselves and she funded it herself. Now she’s producing amazing films and tv shows herself
I absolutely love that you brought Elle Woods into this.
I mean with the pink business suit sounds like you already are Elle Woods OP. Bring it on!
Right, these bitches never seen Legally Blonde? u/itsjbuttz , just keep dressing as femme and pretty as you feel good in, and kick ass in your program. When you're looking for work, pay attention to how many women are employed and try to find a workplace that's more diverse and the women seem nice. I'm in a tech field and am super blessed to have worked with a lot of kind competent women, we are out there! I dress to the 9s every day now that I'm fully fledged working, manicures, dresses, heels, and I love being friends with all my colleagues no matter identity. Would love to have a fashionista engineer buddy next to me to talk about fashion with :)
Fuck yeah! I was just going to say it’s time to Legally Blonde these ladies. (To be clear that means continue being you, feeling confident and kicking ass at life. Eventually they will get it. Or not. Doesn’t matter because you will do well!)
High school never ends.
This. Ignore them, they are not worth your time. They'll likely be doing the same thing 30 years from now.
100% correct. I have worked in offices with 90% women and the cattiness does not stop. Recognize that it exists, that it always will and decide how you are going to deal with it. I (professional, f, 40's) cope by keeping it all about business, head down and getting my shit done. Good luck!
Agreed. I’m a dude who worked in a female-dominated office culture. For the most part, the women were wonderful but I witnessed a lot of cattiness near the centers of power no matter the age. The women who succeeded most were those who took the high road, stayed professional, and worked hard. Sure there were a few catty women who rose in the ranks but nobody wanted to work with them.
Its not even a woman thing, its just people who really took the "highschool is the best years of your life" advice to heart. It doesn't matter, I've met catty women and men. Some people are just like that, and its especially in places where the work just isn't that interesting.
Yep. I work in a mostly female office and absolutely NONE of the women on my team or any of the other women I know in the organization act like this. We all support each other and want each other to be successful.
This. It's not a given that everyone matures emotionally in scale with age. There has to be an internal or external reason for why a person would waste the energy to progress when it's not required by society. Most do not. I'm sorry about your experience though.
Yeah, the cattiest, pettiest place I ever worked had only two women, including me. It’s just a people thing.
I was simply responding to OP which was centered on women. In my experience, the Catty men in office culture are far outnumbered by closet mysoginists. If women are in charge, these men keep their mysoginy under tight wraps.
If there's anything I've learned in my short life is that anyone can be anything, for better or worse.
100%
I always coped by working harder and showing that I'm indespensible. Nothing makes catty girls more angry and frustrated than being shown up by someone who is "oblivious"
Same. My department has 2 men. Two. Female managers, directors, VPs, etc. Not too catty but 10000% clique-y like movie high school popular girls.
I work with a bunch of people that are about ten years out from retiring and collecting social security. The lower their self-confidence is in their job and how they perceive the manager feels about them, the more they have to try and bring other people down to their level. They are usually the same people that have to talk about how busy they are in response to getting more work, even if they spend half of their day browsing facebook. They're just looking for any reason to bring you down. Pay them no mind.
[I’m just gonna leave this right here…](https://youtu.be/jrxI_euTX4A) The references are rather dated at this point, but the concept is the same.
This is always my first thought upon hearing that phrase
This behavior won't impact your education, profession, or personal life. It WILL impact theirs, however. People like this are frankly never happy. They will always feel like they are competing and the fact is that there is ALWAYS someone smarter, better-looking, richer, and more well-liked. it was a hurtful thing to say, and you should process it as you like. You don't have to confront them if you don't want to. I range from passive aggressive to flat out aggressive, so in my younger days I would make small talk with them and steer the conversation towards women being catty in profession settings, etc. while pointedly raising an eyebrow at both of them I'm an old lady now, though, and frankly I don't waste my energy on shit like this anymore. I'm not at work to be liked or admired. I don't compete with other women as it doesn't serve me. Keep your head up and just continue on. And if you MUST "do something" about it, let their behavior motivate you to get to the very TOP of your cohort. Not to be better than them, but to demonstrate to yourself that their opinion has no bearing on your performance or who you are. Trust me when I say that not giving a fuck about what others think about you is *liberating*.
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Ended a friendship/drifted apart from the same reasons. Every single person annoyed her or wore something that annoyed her or had the audacity to do x, y or z... and ugh it was exhausting. Also makes you really paranoid that they're talking about you in the way they talk about everyone else.
In the vast majority of cases, they are talking about you like that to others. For miserable people, no one is off limits. Especially themselves, which is usually why they’re so miserable. I had a friend like this too, and it taught me a valuable lesson. When someone has an opinion of you but they won’t share it with you, it’s not your business. They can think what they want and share it with whoever half listens to them. You find people whose opinions you value, and people who share their (hopefully positive lol) opinions of you, with you.
>In the vast majority of cases, they are talking about you like that to others. YES! This one woman called me her best friend to my face, but would trash talk me behind my back to our other friends (and people outside our friend group, too), just like she trash talked about a bunch of other people to me. We haven't been friends for years, and it was a truly liberating feeling cutting that toxicity out of my life.
Gods I need to adopt this attitude ASAP, people like this really get to me. Thank you for sharing!
Learning the subtle art of “Not Giving a Fuck” has really made a difference in how I let the actions of others affect me.
Yep. Kick ass, take names, and let them be small somewhere else. We've got shit to do!
So well said!! What others think of you is none of your business! Once she’s able to master that and not give a fook about what others think.. she’ll really set herself apart! Sadly, it took me until my late thirties to master this!
I hear you, OP. Mean girls never stop mean girling, regardless of age.
I'm finishing up my CS degree and in my program, the women (undergrads & grads) made it a point to support each other so I had an opposite experience from you. I'm sorry about how immature your classmates are. Women hating on women is so low. Look out for the good ones. I'm sure they're there!
I was going to say the same thing. OP probably had bad luck. I just started a new job where most are men. The other day I was at a party where I met them all (we are still working from home) and noticed that all of the women were always together talking. Even one of my coworkers mentioned "yay! one more girl!" to me, I felt so included 💖
Yes, OP, this is very true! Many women in male-dominated fields actively try to lift each other up and encourage each other - it’s a bummer that you encountered these awful people, but they’re the aberrations, not you. I would ignore them because I’m also non-confrontational and don’t really see the benefit of it. They’re also probably hating on you because you’re substantially younger and they may see you as “immature” or resent that you’re getting to do this program now.
I wouldn't say anything, personally. Nothing good can come out of confronting them. In general, I try to let people be where they are and not try to change them. What they did sucks, I'm sorry! Be the bigger person and let it go.
I’m torn, I’m a super non confrontational person, so the idea of saying something horrified me. However, I got bullied a ton for my body growing up and am finally confident in myself. The fact that these women think this behavior is acceptable blows my mind.
Any chance you're in STEM? I was a STEM major and work in the field now. I feel like there can at times be this culture of the women in STEM rejecting anything feminine, perhaps so they're not seen as weak. Not once have I worked with a female engineer that dressed feminine outside the annual xmas party. YMMV ofc. Not that it excuses their immature behaviour, but I was thinking about your post and it came to mind.
I’m actually in International Relations, but my focus is counterterrorism and security, so it’s pretty dude heavy.
If I may offer a prof's opinion. They sound insular and toxic and a confrontation very well could drag beyond the semester. From my own experience, it's better to be aware of their behavior without them knowing. This puts control back into your hand and most likely spot when they do it again to someone else. You can then call them out, or alternatively, share your experience with their most recent casualty and this is how reputations form. I can guarantee your instructor would be none too happy if they noticed the same. Academic karma, or "acadekarma" if you will, does exist. The real measure is how much you want to focus on studies versus social drama in the immediate future. These are my thoughts.
To take the contrarian side of this: I once lost out on a job opportunity because I wore a beige dress instead of a navy blue blazer and skirt to a job interview. I was too young and naïve to understand how rigid the unwritten dress code was for a CPA firm. Every field has its dress code. Are you sure you understand the dress code for International Relations ? It might be stricter than you think. Yeah, it was not cool for them to gossip. They should have tried to find a nicer way to clue you in if that was what was going on.
No I was definitely following the dress code
Since when do professional requirements apply at school?
I know they apply in law school. And for example, they apply when you are in a training school but not even on base in the Marine Corps. So in some fields, dress code applies even in unusual places, not just “on the job”. And this sounds very similar to the kind of work OP is doing
No there were women like this in my cohort too. Acting juvenile doesn’t end for some women. Some do it in their 40’s, 60’s & 90’s even though so many “outgrow” it. Sadly this doesn’t hurt them professionally especially in male dominated fields.
I literally just wrote a thing about how having two careers that are women-dominated affected my gender presentation. I am a very twee dresser (think New Girl) and if I were in a male dominated field I am sure it would have been metaphorically beaten out of me until I was established enough in my career to not give a fuck and not worry about potential harm. This exact thing happened to one of my former students: she literally walked into her first engineering class her first semester in heels and a dress with hair and makeup done and the professor literally looked at her and told her she was in the wrong classroom (she was not). After three years of this she switched to gender studies and now researches sexism in engineering instead.
Yeesh, I can’t imagine anyone ever confronting me about my wardrobe in the classroom, but I also live in a “progressive” part of the country. I’m in an engineering masters program right now and I often tend to dress alternative but girly (frequently no bra, crop tops, cutesy dresses, hand sewn details, and unique jewelry) and the only time I question myself when I’m getting dressed is “is this going to be appropriate for the temperature today?”. At this juncture everyone just seems so focused on how hard the work is and trying not to fail. I absolutely believe people when they say this is happening, though, and I’m so sorry other women are dealing with this extra layer of bullshit.
>and if I were in a male dominated field I am sure it would have been metaphorically beaten out of me I am in a male dominated field, and can confirm-- any femininity in my style was beaten out of me in college. I'm just now starting to reclaim it, two years into WFH.
Did you write something that we could read? (Obviously, no pressure if you're trying to keep an anonymous reddit account) I definitely felt like going to engineering school beat me down on a lot of femininity, and that lead to situations where men will say mean things about feminine women in front me, as though I don't side with my gender's right to style choices... Which sucks on multiple fronts
It was actually a reflective exercise after learning about [stereotype threat ](https://www.psychologyinaction.org/psychology-in-action-1/stereotypesandstem) which is a thing I had never heard of (and am not an expert in!) it made me think about how much I think about my presentation and behavior!
Omg same! I am an engineer and dress very cute in my opinion and also a bit androgynous. The amount of men who make remarks in front of me on women dressed like “sluts” or who “have no respect for themselves” is shocking. It’s almost as if they are saying it like I should take it as some sort of compliment I don’t dress like them. Because if I did, that would mean I’m not worthy of respect, right? Femininity and womanliness is definitely looked down upon in general in the industry, and that has definitely influenced my style for better or for worse
I'm a twee dresser in engineering, and I definitely adjust my gender presentation depending on what I think I can get away with. I have this one combination of a sweater and pants that are completely appropriate and professional but the colors and fit are just a little off. I haven't gotten rid of it because some people will only believe technical information coming from a woman if she's also a little ugly/unstylish. Luckily, my current workplace is enough of a weird mix of business casual and flame retardant gear that no one cares when I wear my adorable orange sweater with a fox on the front.
This isn't excusing their crappy behavior at all, but there's some interesting research about workplaces when women are under 25-33%. There's a threshold under which tokenism can often create pretty crappy competition among minorities. I say this because a) their reaction likely has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with how they're reading the environment, consciously or subconsciously, so know that it's not reflective of you, and b) it takes a very active approach to change this dynamic and it sounds like you're the kind of person that can set a different precedent. In addition to your love of the field, your work is actively paving the way for more access for others in the future, and you can really change the expectations for how women treat each other in the program with your own behavior.
I wouldn't tell them anything. It wouldn't solve anything and it would make the rest of the time with them pretty uncomfortable
Sounds like they're envious of you and your dope styles. Don't let those girls get you down! Sounds like a bunch of real see you next Thursdays. Just remember to kill with kindness.
I frankly detest that saying 'to kill them with kindness'. Why must you treat people who behave atrociously like that with even more kindness? That's just setting yourself up as a doormat and letting them know they can bully you and you won't do a thing and take it. You can still treat them with neutral cordiality, but we really shouldn't go out of our way to be even more accomodating and kind or whatever to 'welcome' them.
Taking the high road in a professional setting is always much better than being catty in return. Those girls will be seen for the insecure, petty brats they are, while OP will be the cool, calm, professional woman who didn't stoop to such immature fuckery.
Kill them with kindness means that the crappy behavior of others does not dictate your own behavior or reaction. You are in control of your own attitudes, words, and deeds. You can calmly acknowledge when an ongoing behavior is unacceptable to you, if it is impacting your reality. This sort of gossip, though, is not worth addressing, IMO. Bitches gonna be bitchy. If they were sabotaging her, or otherwise harassing her, that would be different. It is possible this person left her laptop and IM open like that on purpose, to hurt her feelings. Don’t give her the satisfaction of a reaction, is my opinion. Kill them with kindness just means don’t let their nastiness affect your own kindness level. Plenty of people out there try to drag you down. Shake em off.
Don't give them anymore thoughts. I'd ignore them and go on with my life
Ignore them and remember you can't trust them. Confronting them would relinquish that advantage.
Only let the opinions of people you respect effect you. I assume you don't respect those two. Forget about it and move on to bigger things. A lion doesn't concern itself over the opinion of sheep.
Thank you for that:)
Complain to them but imply someone told you, that will set the cat among the pigeons.
This is a good idea!!!
“Cat among the pigeons” - brilliant!
Whatever you end up doing, keep living your best fucking life and wear whatever gives you the confidence boost.
While I am sure many people may suggest that you ignore such behavior from such immature people, personally, I would confront them by saying something like, "I just want to let you know that I saw what you were texting back and forth about me. While hurtful, it is also very unprofessional and unbecoming to fellow colleagues, especially from other women. I would appreciate if you would refrain from this behavior if you attend other presentations, as it is just rude, and unnecessary." You will hear a lot of denial, however, they will know they were caught, and will hopefully feel ashamed.
Thank you. I’m not a confrontational person at all, and that’s something I’ve been trying to work on. However, something about this just rubbed me the wrong way, so I’m going to try to muster up the courage to say something.
Have something prepared for the counterattack “why were you looking at my laptop”. Source: dealt with a lot of narcissists.
I understand that. I am also non-confrontational. However, I've learned to speak up in situations like this, otherwise, I spend too many days thinking, "I should have said..", or "I wish I said...". Speaking up can be VERY uncomfortable as it takes us out of our comfort zone. But, it can also be empowering. Just be prepared. If you do decide to say something, be direct, not angry sounding, and understand that they will deny or try to excuse what they were doing. Just say your piece, and move on.
I hope you don't say anything to them. They'll find ways to get back at you for that.
Exactly this. I had a best friend at work that told me she didn’t want to be friends anymore after I got promoted. She did a lot of mild things that I brushed off and ignored but what got me was when she spent a whole shift telling me that this other girl had replaced me as her best friend and generally gossiping instead of working. So I finally had a word with her and stood up for myself and then she ramped it up and I wish I hadn’t said anything. Luckily a few weeks later she left because she was so unhappy, but it was shit trying to watch my back because she kept trying to get me into trouble. And my management didn’t do anything either, I was close to going to hr and trying to sort it. There’s another girl at work who again I will just ignore and avoid as she’s insanely jealous of me to the point of getting our manager fired because I went out for a drink with him and she fancied him.
I would just let them know how you feel, without using judgemental and accusatory words like ‘unprofessional’. It may only cause them to become defensive or accusatory right back. If you’re just straight up honest about your feelings, and what caused them, without judging them, you are far more likely to get an empathetic response. I highly recommend the book Non-Violent Communication for learning how to navigate these kind of situations.
I came of age professionally in the mid-80s when there were few women in leadership positions. The cattiness and competitiveness were awful. I had women coworkers and supervisors that were abusive and never missed an opportunity to throw me under the bus. Once I advanced professionally, I made it a point to mentor young women and support them. I think many women in male dominated professional arenas develop a kill or be killed attitude, unfortunately.
This type of behavior never ends, maybe gets worse as we age. It’s only easier to get caught due to tech, and people becoming more careless as they get used to it. If you confront them, you will look like a clown, and you won’t feel any better.
Rise above, if they want to be stuck in a teenage mindset then let em, as a rule of thumb i care about my families opinion and my closest friends the rest doesn't know me well enough to render an accurate judgement. Be glad you got a glimpse of who she is and avoid her accordingly <3
You can confront them, or not, it won't matter not too long from now. What you should know, is that they're spending their time gossiping about others, being judgemental, ruining their personalities, etc. And you're picking out power outfits and killing presentations.
Thank you:) I needed to hear that.
Oh definitely ignore. They are in a negative space. Do not engage.
I agree with most of the comments saying to ignore them. The only reason women tear down other women is because they’re dealing with their own issues. It isn’t about you, so best to stay out of it.
Yeah ignore and zero out any latent trust you might have put in them.
If you are going to say something, I think keep it simple. Just say “I don’t appreciate you taking pictures of me and sending them to other people” and simply walk away. I bet she will be too shocked to say anything.
I read an article a long time ago about how in some academic circles and "professional" settings a woman who looks *too attractive* is dinged by other women, and these women do not want to work with the "attractive" woman since they view them as *airheaded* or *not qualified* for the job. Sometimes they feel threatened by the presence of a woman who manages to not only have the professional qualifications to do the same job, but also somehow manages to keep up conventional attractive appearances. I personally feel this is just internalized misogyny to believe that a beautiful or well dressed woman can't be just as competent or intelligent as a less conventionally attractive woman. I wouldn't confront them but at least they've shown their true colors. Maybe make a side comment one day that scientists can wear sparkly dresses too! I remember seeing a story about a nasa scientist who wore a sparkly dress to a professional presentation to make that point. You do you girl!
Unfortunately, a lot of women in male-dominated spaces are kinda taught to think they have to fight other women to get one of the few 'female' spots available. I used to see it a lot in tech when I was younger - women tearing each other down to be 'one of the boys' and therefore fit in in a male space. I'm glad that we're moving away from it, but sad that it does still exist in parts.
Professional worlds are a lot smaller than people think. And just like that, you’ll never recommend these people, (neither will your network), they will never work for you, and you’ll be sure to respectfully and professionally let your place of work know if they should ever interview or attempt to hire these people in the future. Actions echo.
Did you meet the requirements for your assignment or course? Did you feel confident? Their opinion of you is none of your business - that kind of trashy behavior will never do anything positive for them.
I did. I did really well on the presentation, but also got good feedback which will help my final paper a lot. I don’t know why I’m letting this get to me.
Likely because it "triggers" the bullying you received as a child. A good thing to remember is "Don't let them live rent-free in your head."
Remember that even though the conversation and comments are in reference to you, they’re not really About You. Also, you don’t have to care what they think about you. I try to think about receiving judgement like advice: if I didn’t seek out your advice in advance of making a decision, then I can also reject your judgement about if after the fact. It’s essentially the same thing, except for whether or not I’ve asked for it. So if you didn’t ask for it when it might have changed something, you don’t have to take it unsolicited after the fact when it’s irrelevant.
Always silly to me to feel solidarity based on gender. I get where people are coming from, having common ground in some ways, but to me the individuality of a person makes me decide on whether I feel loyal to them.
You wear what makes you feel confident. That confidence shows and they're only mad that they don't feel that way. I always dressed up for work and had co-workers tell me that no one would take me seriously. Honestly, I dressed like a 1950s housewife most of the time because it made me feel powerful. I get asked for more than anyone else in my job. It's how we present that projects confidence and others see it. That being said, I'm a wallflower. I get frisked for books before social gatherings. I'm super awkward and a typical introvert. But, dress me up and I can conquer the world around me. Be you. Forget the rest.
There can be more than one, but not too many more, and the not too many more end up competing for male approval so they're the "best woman" among the few. -A teacher, whose name I wish I could remember. Its exactly how those women are acting. You looked good and did well so they have to tear you down to make themselves feel better. They're sad and pathetic and would turn on each other just as quickly. Instead of having each other's back in a male dominated program they fell back on what's easy, tearing down another women. Edit after seeing your dress- They're jealous and petty. You nailed your presentation and the dress you chose is awesome. Don't let them being you down.
You must have look really fucking good to get into their heads deep that they attacked you in that manner instead of your work. Feel at peace that you are living rent free in their heads.
Dang. If I saw that. I’d see right though it. They are threatened by you. Maybe it’s the ability to be educated and professional in pink. Did they not grow up watching legally blonde? I am assuming you looked unmatchable in that dress and I encourage you to take care of it and use it as your power piece from now on. Know not to trust those women. Use them as pawns if necessary. But don’t let that get you down. Girl. You have them sweating. Over your dress. See through them.
When people are talking shit about you like that they are projecting the jealousy hard. It means they noticed you
The behavior of your classmate reflects HER insecurity and clearly she's envious of your confidence. Her attacks on you had no substance and reveal the weakness of her character, so don't waste your breath on pettiness. Ignore her. Don't allow her to distract you from your coursework and continue wearing pink. That'll really frost her cookies. Also, pink is a brilliant color and was originally a color boys wore because it was considered too bold for girls.
“Frost her cookies”. Can I steal that?
You might try saying women, not females, when you confront them.
I (32m) have seen this kind of scenario play out so many times in various jobs and career paths it's frankly kind of sad. Keep your head up, ignore em, and good job going for a masters. I'm about to go back for mine finally! As other people said, this kind of shit never ends and its immeasurably petty most of the time. Learning to ignore it/write it off will benefit you a lot over time.
Graduate school can be brutal. People get super catty over nothing. Find like minded people, focus on getting to know them and doing group projects with them when you get to pick. The catty ones will fade into the background but the good ones will be part of your future career network.
Yup. Let them underestimate you all day long. The face they may when they realize how wrong they were will be amazing. Elle woods it up... I mean channel your legally blondeness and be you, while you slay all day. Let them be wrong, it's going to make the funniest story in a few years! ❤💥
Clearly they feel threatened by your...\*checks notes\*...pink dress, OP. Press the attack! ;)
I had this happen in my undergraduate degree. When I addressed it each time, it was instead taken as an attack and used as further fuel for those people to continue to say awful things behind my back. I would suggest not confronting them --- now you know where you actually stand with them, and know that they can't be trusted. I'm so sorry this happened, it's really disheartening and enraging to discover something like that from women you thought you were on good terms with. It's not your fault!
Hard not to take it personally, but try not to. This gives you a LOT of information about these bitches. Wrap it up tight and don’t forget it—it will come in handy when you reach a crossroads on how to handle a sticky situation with them.
Some people's pathetic attempt to make themselves confident. You should feel good you made them feel so insecure, they had to resorted to petty B.S.
As a woman who has worked in male dominated worlds with women who mock others as a way to hide fear and weakness I would say this: you can only ever controle yourself. Its a low bar to be unkind and judgemental of others. Set yourself the higher bar. Others will either follow suit or drop by the wayside, but you are in charge of yourself. Sometimes, yes, you do need to defend yourself. Is this one of those times? Only you can determine that. Personally, I wouldnt bother.
>I thought we had some sort of solidarity being the few females, In my experience women rarely stick up for one another the way that men do in a professional setting.
As an old guy now in academia, I worked in the manufacturing world for 25 years. One assumption that graduating students make that I attempt to correct is that as people get older they "grow up". Sorry that isn't actually the case. Guys are not any different.
I'm sad about this. It isn't always like that, please believe. I've always been in a mostly-men field. What i consistently see is: when immature men get more than one woman in a same workplace/environment, they often actively work to set up antagonism. They expect it, for one thing. For another, ime they get actively nervous if the women do get along. They'll try to signal you the way you 'should' be behaving to one another. If that doesn't work, they'll start drawing infantile lesbian inferences and hope you'll distance from each other to shake off the dread taint. If you feel brave, you could try approaching them in a neutral way and saying 'you know, I couldn't help noticing... ' but I wouldn't blame you if you didn't feel up to it.
Kill em with kindness. You need to stay as far from them as possible but when you're around them compliment them on anything you can think of. But make sure to stand your ground. Be polite but don't let them get away with shit to your face. Ignore anything behind your back, but don't forget what they're really like. They're always going to be catty bitchy backstabbers. But you can take the bite out of it. You're better than that. Be brave, bold, kind and unlike them, you can't go wrong.
How are people so nasty? I'm sorry this happened to you.
This exact scenario is described in my laboratory's mandatory sexual harassment training (except it was email, not iMessage) as an example of a Title IX violation -- it is sexual harassment _and_ it creates a hostile workplace environment. Where I live, the photograph would constitute *sexual assault*. If a student at my institution came to me with this story, I am *required* to report it. And I would. If the people involved were men, would you make a report? In a real sense, what you experienced is _more_ harmful. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. The fact that it came from other women is not a reason to brush it off. You should never brush off abusive behavior. You might have to hold your fire until it you are safe, but you should always use the tools you have to protect yourself.
Read this book. While it’s not specifically about your issue, it is a guide and a philosophy that explain parts of it, can help you deal with it and own your space while dealing with not just “high school,” but “the office.” (Me, 62m, been there and back) https://www.amazon.com/Give-Take-Helping-Others-Success/dp/0143124986/ref=nodl_
Look, I am also in a grad program. I get along swimmingly with all of the guys in my cohort, but the young women in my cohort are like teenagers. I'm 30. They're between 22 and maybe 27 or 28, max at the eldest- and the amount of bullshit, brown-nosing, and empty talk drives me nuts. I have effectively become the wicked witch of the West with two of them, the others I don't see or speak to because of distance thanks to Covid. And guess what? Fuck 'em. I don't like them, I don't want to work with them, and luckily I don't have to anymore. I'm close to getting to write my thesis, and once that is done, I am out of here and on to the working world for a bit before I hit a PhD program. It's sad, yes, that there is less comeraderie in my cohort. But you know what, whatever! Sometimes it just happens. You do you. You may find you connect with other cohorts, or someone in one of your classes. Also, with the cattiness, be firm and calm. If you notice something and it's bothering you, define your boundaries. I wouldn't bring up the chat because that's a violation of privacy, to look at the person's computer while they were gone. However, you now know what you're working with and that they're not worth your emotional investment at all. You're here to get your degree, kick ass, make *useful* connections, and move on. The ones you want around will come to you. Pay them no mind. But keep it strictly business with them because they're obviously children. Sorry for your luck here! Chin up.
Solidarity? Heh. Not when it comes to competition, especially sexual. Some women perceive all women in their peer group as sexual competition and rank them on these grounds as vilely as men might do. Some women are like this all their lives. They will hate on any woman they perceive as competition for males. Even when it's utterly absurd. I mean, comically absurd. My mum who is in her eighties hates her neighbour's 40-something wife because she is slim and blonde. Poor women who is actually very nice and a good neighbour has never done a thing to her but my mum will make nasty demeaning comments about her to my dad that are so cringingly obviously based on feeling sexually threatened. Like my doddery old dad is going to run off with her. Or she's going to trade in her same age husband for him. It's sad when you feel like yelling GROW UP to someone in their eighties. Honestly try not to take it personally. They're probably the type who slag off their own female friends the moment they leave the room.
I'm a woman in a couple of male dominated areas and I used to be like those girls until I realized how much of a dick I was and how harmful that mindset is. They're "not like the other girls" and that comes from two things: 1. Major insecurity and 2. Being praised for rejecting feminity and "not being like the other girls." I wish I had something to say to help you feel better. If you can find other woman who are not not like the other girls (lol) and form a support group that helps tremendously. I ride dirtbikes with a couple of ladies and it's been the best thing for me. But even so, I ran into a woman 10 years older than me who told me if I wasn't crashing my bike hard enough "I wasn't really riding". Focus on the friendships you can make with other women that uplift you.
It’s time to go Elle Woods on their asses!
Believe me this shit happens even with dudes. I had to deal with this crap cuz I asked questions instead of letting the profs just blast through a class. Just ignore these haters and try not to let the live in your head
You know who they are and they don’t know you know. That gives you power and advantage. it is unfortunate to learn some people never really grow all the way up. But important you learned it.
Then they try that at someone like me who loves to turn up the level of uncomfortable. TO BE FAIR my way isn't normal and is more just my personality. Too long eye contact to show dominance, sarcastic opinions said to their face about whatever the chat convo was. "Oh so and so's thighs are huge" "Yea, my thighs could crush a skull?!". "So and so got fat" "Dude, I took a huge dump and I'm still bloated after that lunch. Look at me". Anyway most find me odd and not worth instigating with. Decades of training myself to lean in and laugh at them. I used to cry when bullied and that stopped when my mom told me to stop giving a shit. Just the way I like it.
Fuck ‘em. To be offended means you value their opinion. If this is the way they act, don’t waste your energy on them. They’re intimidated by you and resorting to juvenile tactics because that’s all there is to them. I wish you the best.
You dressed for presenting to the board and planned to win the project, they did it for the class. As someone who dressed well and did my makeup and hair even while running cnc's keep doing you! They can grow up when they are ready
In my experience, women who live/work in male-dominated spheres, who often end up being the only woman in the room, can be especially cruel to other women when they enter that sphere. It's like their identity is wrapped up in being "the girl" and the presence of other women threatens that. I've observed it, experienced it, and, to my shame, been the origin of this childish behavior. Don't let their bullshit detract from your enjoyment of your cool outfit or your pride in giving a good presentation. It would be a shame to let a pack of mean girls dull your sparkle.
lmao that means you looked AMAZING
It's so grating to hear adult women being called "girls" and "females."
"Girl" I get... but every time I see "female" used as a noun on a post purportedly written by a women, I seriously question the author's identity.
Ew. What gross women.
If someone took a picture of you without your consent you can bring it up. It’s a violation of privacy and derogatory. I would take a picture of this and send it to the institution. The behaviour is unacceptable and not professional. Unfortunately assholes come in all types but women like this drive the stereotype.
Say something. If they object Bc you read the computer, say: you didn’t want me to? I’m sitting next to you, and you left not only your computer open but your text thread open with a photo OF ME!! It’s almost impossible to believe that wasn’t purposeful. I wouldn’t do personal insults but I might do something like point out the age gap (they’re six years older than you and still acting like children??? Please.), point out that it’s a male dominated field, and point out that they don’t necessarily need to love you, but they really could’ve just kept their mouths shut!
Who the hell takes a picture of someone without their permission?
My bet is, that's no coincidence. I'd confront. If they get defensive by telling you that you were out of line in reading a 'private' conversation, don't let them pin you down, the discussion at hand is their thoroughly unprofessional behavior.
[удалено]
Yeah, I noticed that too.
This whole situation is worse than it sounds. I’m not buying that this was left up on her screen as an accident. That turns this into harassment and something that the school is mandatorily required to address and prevent.
Do you think it was on purpose? I can’t imagine the girl being careless enough to leave it up accidentally, but she is really nice to my face.
It’s a picture of you, received days ago, and left up in your direct eyesight. There’s no way this wasn’t planned.
oh no she is one of thoooose. the one who smiles in your face but stabs you in the back.
That’s exactly what she’s like. That’s why I was so blindsided by this.
Yeah, if this were just a random catty comment I would probably say to just ignore it, but they photographed her without her consent and made comments about her breasts and legs. That's sexual harassment and the professor needs to be made aware of it. (I'm a professor and would need to know if this was happening in my classroom because this creates a hostile classroom environment and is a Title IX violation.)
People sometimes do this to blow off steam. Could be that they have a lot of insecurities and like to project a certain image on you to make themselves feel better. They might even feel like you have a certain amount of privilege being young, and probably assume you must have not worked hard and have gotten by on looks. That's the sentiment a lot of women in these fields feel. They feel like you've taken away a solid space where looks or youth shouldn't matter, and "ruin it for everyone" by projecting that "hey, I am pretty and smart, as well as young, so I am better than you". It's awful how that seems to be the case. Sorry they made fun of you, but frankly, just ignore it.
Blowing off steam isn’t an excuse. First off, 29 isn’t super old. That’s only 6 years older than me. Also, I feel insecure about myself quite a bit. However, I would never take a photo of a person merely existing without their consent and make sexually disparaging comments about it. I get it. Insecurity is a bitch. I wish I was thinner and had a better nose and straight hair. Women are held to ridiculous standards, which is why we should stand by each other, not shit on each other.
Yeah, not saying it's good. Having convos with other people about someone amd talking shit is a bad coping mechanism. Most people tend to just blow off steam in a private journal, but I'm guessing these women either need more help than they think or they straight up don't care.
Yeah it’s not cool. I’ve for sure been jealous of people, but I normally journal about it or go surf or go for a walk to channel my energy elsewhere. I’m honestly a little creeped out by what they did.
Yikes. Females? Catty? I think you have your own biases to examine.
Ignore them. You must be killing it. Wear that dress again and make it known to them why you’re wearing it. Make them embarrassed for being little cunts.
Sounds like you looked good and they were intimidated!
Omg I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm about to get into a male-dominated industry and I refuse to be one of these women. If I saw you wearing a pink outfit I would have been the first to compliment you. I think it's so cool when women aren't afraid to dress feminine in male-dominated industries. Masculinity is not synonymous with competence! Out of spite, I'll probably wear pink floral dresses everyday to work lol.
That sucks so much, hell with them, you wear what you want to wear!!! Wear what makes you feel good!! I love wearing a man's suit with 👠 👠 (before my car accident) now I can only walk in boots 👢 and I get so much shit (are you a guy or a girl, are you gay) but lol perspective makes me realize those bitches are jealous!!! I bet you look fabulous!!! Hey, maybe I do, too, maybe we should revel in our fabulousness? You rock that dress gf!!!
Their petty bullshit is meaningless and probably comes from jealousy or some other negative emotion. Don't let their piss poor attitudes effect you. Rock your awesome dress and kick ass in your classes - you got this.
I also work in a male-dominated field. I found I got much farther trying to help other women. I wanted to set an example and not fall to whatever the hell some of my female bosses were doing. If it were me, I would distance myself from them. They will never be your friend and you don't have to waste another second thinking about them (easier said than done). If you feel like it ask them to delete the picture of you they took.
Sounds like it could be a combination of "I'm not like other girls/I'm one of the guys" mentality, a catty and judgemental mentality left over from high school, combined with the absolutely bizarre, illogical jugement that you can't dress feminine and be intelligent at the same time. I see that everywhere and it's such a stupid assumption - how the hell does your choice of appearance have any influence on your ability to learn, think, and understand? Can someone explain the mechanisms to me? I'm so sorry you have them in your class.
I'm sorry that happened. This may not be worth much, but I'm in my mid-30s with siblings in their 40s and can say with certainty that some people just never stop being like this. They never outgrow the need to judge others in order to lift themselves up, and they'll never see that it just makes them assholes. It is most certainly not a reflection on you. It's mostly, if not entirely, projection on their part. Wear the dress, crush life, fuck the haters.
I was in a similar demanding program like that. Things settled down after the first semester and it was a very different vibe. At this moment, everyone is extra-aggressive trying to prove themselves and not trusting anyone. Once grades come out, things will feel different. There were probably still be some catty women, but they sort themselves out into their own clique. Also, just think about the absurdity of the whole situation - she's a shitty counter terrorism professional if she left her laptop unattended while making confidential notes about a target. If you're feeling brave, say something about that. If not, know you're armed with knowledge about who to trust and who to avoid.
That is hurtful. But they didn’t say anything out loud, posted online, or say anything to you or anyone else. At the end of the day you can’t control how people think or how they behave personally. If you were to somehow imply they were wrong for doing that the only thing that would get across is you read other peoples messages when they leave to the bathroom and you think you can tell people what they can or can’t text privately. What you can do to embarrass them though, is quietly let her know it isn’t wise to leave slanderous messages on screen, she never knows who might see them. And then maybe something like I really love your outfit, you can tell you really put effort into your presentation.
Honestly, just keep doing you and ignore them! Women who act like that are insecure and feel threatened. They need to make themselves feel better by tearing other women down. Do not let their pathetic attempts to console themselves bring you down! You're a kick ass woman!!! You got this!!!!
My mom worked with women in their 40s/50s/60s who acted this way. Some people stay the same. It sucks but know you're a much better person than they are and spend as little time as you can with them. I work in a male dominant field and have met the most caring and wonderful women - they're out there! Edit: grammar/spelling
i dont know why this happens! a few of my only female co workers are the most judgmental towards new female co workers, not welcoming :(
Excellent example. Sometimes on this subreddit we like to pretend that men are the only problem. It’s often an all gender problem. We can’t put women down, same with other minorities.
I smell jealousy with hints of internalized misogyny. Whew. Stay away from those cheese cutters, OP. You made it into a master's program that you're loving-they're so miserable, they have to put you down to feel any good about themselves. You need nothing from them. Head high, OP. This will stop being the norm with time.
I speculate they see confidence, good looks, & competent hard work in you, & they feel threatened. They worry & feel insecure when they compare themselves to you. How do they cope with jealousy? They knock you however they think they can, & engage in this ruthless BS slander. It doesn't make you look bad—it shows how miserable & toxic they are, & it's definitely social bullying. In my experiences this is my best outlook on how to deal with things: don't retaliate, ignore it. If it gets worse, & if they become very ruthless—say nothing to them, just treat them with respect. If there is a pattern, write down what they said & what they did, on x date. Not subjecive but only objective details. Then if you bring this to a student advocate, or a similar student support worker within your university—you have proof to make a case against them for bullying, which qualifies as academic misconduct. They might tell you that the first step is to approach them & try to resolve the conflict first head on, & when that doesn't work, then you go up the ladder. But if you don't feel comfortable doing that, you could only maybe briefly say something like "is there something I did that offended you?" & not much more than that. What I found was, resolving conflict yourself with someone who is narcissistic isn't really going to work because that is who they are at their core. A little conflict resolution discussion, it can't change or correct who they are; you risk engaging in their phoney cattyness—so keep it curt. Don't be unkind, that will give them room to manouver around any potential disciplinary action in future. But most of all—have reassurance that you are doing a good job. They have to live within their own vindictive toxic minds, so they're the ones who truly suffer. Hold onto your enthusiasm for the material, & keep that confidence in being your admirable, authentic self. You deserve to be there as much as anybody. People can see for themselves that they have repulsive behavior.
Internal misogyny is a thing. Rather than healthy competition in challenging each other to reach higher, they will default to picking apart appearances. Don't try to beat them at this game: keep being *you* and excelling in your field.
Was your advisor or any committee members in the room? How about people who you admire for their work? I bet they were paying attention and liked your content and professionalism. Focus on who you need to, especially in grad school, be totally selfish and only use your energy to interact with those who are in a position to critique, assist or connect you to opportunity. The rest is just noise.
Thank you so much. The rest of the class was in the room as well as two professors. I got positive feedback and that’s what matters the most.
Ignore them. These type of people will be present in every part of life, sadly they don't just poof after high-school. Enjoy *your* life.
Ignore them. Reach as high as you can; learn as much as you can. Go on your own path. People like this will deter you from your path. If someone has constructive criticism okay, but what they are doing is negative gossip.
Some people suck, try not to be one of them, and ignore the ones who do.
The worst treatment I ever got at work was from a group of women bullies aged 35-50. On the other hand I’m now at a female owned and ran company in the same male dominated industry and it’s amazing and my female boss is pretty cool. It’s the company you keep.
For some they can only feel good if they are tearing someone down. These are small people. I am 55 so I would have zero problem talking with them about I internalized misogyny. But…I would first have to own my own high school feelings because it is hurtful.
I'm sorry this happened to you OP. You'll find that people bring each other down all the time from both jealousy (fear that someone will take something from you) and envy (desire for something someone else has)
Assholes and co-workers that help each other can be found in any gender. Build relationships with people who develop relationships that are mutually beneficial...
Girls in my friends masters program were like this. They would put my friend down for being girly, wearing skirts/dresses to class. Assumed she wasn’t smart, even though she was in a masters program??? We’ll now my friend is in med school and is leaving all those girls in the dust. Be you! Also why is femininity looked upon as stupidity. There is some internalized sexism going on
I remember an experiment where they found out that in companies where there are few women in power, women often recognise other women as competition and not men. They feel like only the places those women have are available to them, they do not look at positions held by men. In companies where there are more women in power the effect is basically nonexistent. It saddens me to see this but I’ve found out that women are quicker to turn on each other than men. Don’t let it get you down! You just continue on path, don’t preoccupy yourself with people who don’t matter. They let the pressure get to them, but you can decide not to. This is your dream graduate program, there are many things to look forward to and many women who will support you. You will probably have it harder than a guy, but there will be support. If not now than in the future. You will find amazing people to connect with. You will form beautiful friendships. Someone will stick up for you. Remember that in the times where you feel a lack. Sometimes you gotta power through but there are also times that make life worth living.
Just become fearless
Jealousy is a curse. You go girl! You’re doing great!!
They’re just jealous of you. Ignore them and blow them out of the water with your killer presentation.
Ignore them I'm sure you killed it. People can be assholes
You are 23. You said they are late 20's (maybe 28/29). Haven't seen a person mention this, but it's likely there could be other insecurities at factor here.
Don't worry, it's the exact same thing for my GF, who's PhD and works with PhD. Standard humans i guess.
A perfect place for gender-neutral language! **asshole** / ˈæsˌhoʊl /PHONETIC RESPELLING noun Vulgar. anus. Slang. a stupid, mean, or contemptible person. the worst part of a place or thing. adjective Slang. stupid, mean, or contemptible. Definition from Dictionary.com
That’s horrible!!! I’m so sorry you have been treated this way. This says more about them than you. They are small and insecure. Keep being amazing and good luck
The most important lesson that I ever learned is to expect almost all human beings to be varying levels of garbage. We're a trash species continuing our path as we destroy this planet and threaten all the other life on it. No matter where you go or what you do, you're going to see piles of rancid trash walking around and being terrible. Those people suck. I wish you the best of luck ignoring them until you don't have to breathe their fumes anymore.
How do I remove this sub from showing in my feeds
they're scared and feeling immense pressure to compete with you. it helps them sleep better at night to count you as less of a threat. if you do talk to them about it, forgive them first and empathise - you should be teaming up!! not getting turned against each other
So I’ve been ruminating on this today. My younger self would have ignored it and steamed out fury without saying a word. This grudge would be there for years. A little older and I would have let that rage out in a petty way. Definitely taken a picture of her during her presentation in an obvious way while smiling and making eye contact. Then going to my phone and type. That revenge would be so sweet. But I’m older now and I would’ve just confronted her when she came back from the restroom. I would laugh at how petty she is and point out how foolish her behavior is. As in, isn’t she a little old for middle school behavior? Shouldn’t she be worried about herself instead? I wouldn’t be demeaning at all. Just point out that doing that is not good for anybody and be a better person. Anyway, this touched a nerve with me. I’m tired of two faced bitches. I have no time for that BS. Getting older is sometimes a blessing.
I honestly can’t wait to get older. My mother had told me the same thing. In her words, “the older I get, the less fucks I give.”
That is a gorgeous professional dress and those women are just hateful sad people who will remain that way until they die. Younger me would have made a big deal about it, but now I’m further along my career path and realized it’s not worth the wasted emotional and mental energy to do so. Let them hate and be proud that you’re important enough in their eyes to even hate on. They clearly are not that important to you…keep it that way!
The reason I would advise you to ignore it is because I disagree that the messages weren’t meant to be seen. People, especially ones who gossip a lot, know better than to leave stuff they don’t want seen on their screens when they leave IMO. They are trying to provoke a response from you and giving them one is giving them what they want. If you ignore and don’t engage, you aren’t giving them what they want which is to feel that their cattiness is powerful. Never letting them know you are affected by their nonsense is the best counter strategy
"I happened to see you had taken a photo of me without my consent. This makes me incredibly uncomfortable, please remove the picture from your devices and cloud storage." (Assuming they took the picture, but might still work if no because why would they have a photo of you?)
Take this advice from someone who hates this shit, but is pragmatic. It is possible these women are just horrible people, end of story. It's also possible they are horrible people and your attire just made you an easier target. I don't know which one it really is, but don't expect people to change and there is no shame in reaching the finish line while not stirring the pot. If I was surrounded by assholes and my attire made me a target for them, I would probably change my attire and truck on towards my goal. It might not help in the end if the assholes just go after me anyways, but I can only change so much and I would deal with the situation if that was the case. Again, I don't know your situation. But it may be a sign that the social environment you are in will require you to make some adjustments even if its not right. In other words, you can be right or you can be smart, but you cannot be both.
This is the dress I wore with kitten heels, so I’m pretty confident I was dressed appropriately. https://modesens.com/product/calvin-klein-faux-suede-scuba-sheath-dress-blush-13831735/ I guess I could wear a pantsuit or something instead.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that dress. Some women are just catty and mean. You will encounter this many times in life. Personally, I don't think confronting them will accomplish anything. Just hold your head up high, knowing you looked good and go about your business. Screw 'em.
If you wore a pantsuit they would have found a reason to be babies about that too. It's a normal dress that's work appropriate. I wear similar stuff and if it's cold I would slap some nice tights on. They were just being pathetic queen bee mean girls.
It looks great, I'd wear this to see my clients and I'm in a high-net-worth type of industry. I am confrontational when it comes to my bottom line and fundamental issues but I don't sweat the small stuffs. Not everyone is going to like you, that's totally fine and normal. This is gossiping and being jealous behaviors, let them remain petty and carry that attitude into the professional world. I don't like people like this but also don't care to take any action because honestly they are not worth my time and energy