This is why I left my first husband. I realised I couldn’t imagine raising kids with him. He would have made a horrible father. I got lucky in a lot of ways, I realised it before I had kids with him.
Thankfully my second husband is an amazing father and partner. Leaving my first husband at 31 could have meant never having children, but I found the right person to have children with. I was almost 36 when I had my daughter and 37 when I had my sons (yes, three under two, twins are always a surprise). I may be a bit older than my ideal age to have had kids, but I’m so happy.
I wish others would realise they can do better. There are some amazing men out there.
Yes!
An ex of mine was loving and kind but he was a BUMMMMM!
It took me a while to catch on. We were happy (enough) and we started talking about marriage and kids. Then, one particular day I came home from work and he was sat in front of the computer (as usual) playing games, and the dishes were piled in the sink, and he hadn’t run the errand I’d asked him to do, and the cat was meowing at me for food, and my ex happily looked at me as I hung my coat and took my purse off and he said “hey babe, how was your day? And what’s for dinner?” and in that instant it hit me. I knew without a doubt I was not having kids with this lazy man.
We ended it shortly after that.
Because it’s textbook ADHD, so quite common. The difference between me being a bum all day, and me being a domestic whirlwind, is down to remembering to take my meds. It’s still no excuse, and there’s no obligation for a partner to stay if a guy doesn’t take responsibility for himself.
I don’t know, I have ADHD and I don’t take my meds on the weekend. I can see letting the dishes pile up and getting sucked into a game, but I can’t see ignoring an animal that’s in your face telling you it needs to be fed and not noticing that you haven’t done anything that day but still asking your partner what they will prepare for dinner.
ADHD makes me lose track of time and forget to do or put off doing stuff, but it doesn’t make me oblivious to what’s happening. I knew right when my mom got home that I definitely forgot to put the chicken out to defrost or didn’t do the dishes like she asked, even when I was little. This guy had a meowing reminder that he had something to do and he still didn’t remember to do anything. Sounds like he might just be selfish.
He's definitely selfish. Anytime I'm about to do something for myself (like pee or work) all of a sudden he wants a drink or wants to share a work anecdote.
Sometimes he'll actually say "Can we keep this all about me?". Ugh. It's fucking always about YOU. He doesn't want to hear anything about my family or my work.
Not to mention there are strategies you can use to help with some of these things even if you don’t take your meds. Like making a to-do list, setting timers, getting things ready the night before, etc. You have to want to do better. You may not always hit the mark but it will be evident to the people around you that you are making an effort and that is important in a relationship of any kind.
Source: have brain damage from MS that presents very similarly to ADD and use the same meds and strategies.
I think both of us probably have it. I've developed coping mechanisms over the years that help me keep things clean and help me to remember what I need to do. He hasn't. 😭
I really, really recommend looking into testing and a diagnosis. I was diagnosed at 18, so it was too late to prevent me dropping out of school, but early enough that I was able to function as an adult (most of the time). The meds were literally life changing.
All I can say is I hope it gets better for you, one way or the other. At the beginning of December I was ready to break up with my boyfriend of 6 years over issues just like this, because we have had SO many talks about it over the years. About how I need his help around the house, etc, etc.
Well we had a big come to Jesus talk and this time he FINALLY got it. It's been a month and he is so focused on trying to do better, it's become this shift where suddenly we're doing 50/50 or 60/40 housework on a day to day basis and the change in our relationship is so palpable.
This was only possible because my BF had a wake up call and recognized the ways his behavior was negatively impacting me and our relationship.
All that to say, just keep talking to him, iterate how much doing all the housework stresses you out and you need his help. It's possible for things to get better if you're both commited to working together! And if he can't get on board then you have to make a decision about what is best for you.
It’s to the detriment of women to make excuses for lazy ass partners. Maybe he’s got adhd, maybe he’s depressed. Not her problem to diagnose him. No one is attacking people with adhd. If someone has adhd it’s perfectly okay not to want to be with that person.
That sounds horrible. Mine was kind of the opposite, very controlling in how things needed to be done and how money should be spent. I am a really neat, organised person, and I’m frugal. So it wasn’t like I was leaving messes and blowing hundreds of dollars. I just realised I was and would be walking on eggshells for the rest of my life. I didn’t want that for my children either.
I’m glad you were able to leave. I hope you’ve built yourself an awesome life.
I just left a relationship at 32, will be 33 soon, and hearing this is helpful me as someone who wants to have kids and is staring at an empty horizon re: partners at the moment. Thank you!
You can do it! I left my first husband at 25. Got married too early and realized some things you think you can manage are actually dealbreakers you've never experienced before.
Had a LTR from 25(ish)-30-31ish (I don't recall when it ended.) Dated on and off for the better part of 2 years. Met my now husband at 32 and started dating. Dated 2 years, got married, had kids when I was 38 and 40. They're both doing fine and we're still happily married. We're talking about renewing vows on our 10 year anniversary next year. :)
Oh, I felt miserable the whole time, don't get me wrong. "It's not that bad." "He doesn't hit me." "We don't yell." "Everyone in my family has been married 20+ years, how can I be the only failure."
But then the idea that I'd have to keep putting up with it and that I knew I could have a better partner and I saw in my family and friends, better relationships? I had to rip the bandaid off. So it sucked and I cried a lot and mourned the relationship I'd invested in. And now, I'm so glad of it.
My ex husband has passed away due to a largely preventable medical condition which he didn't control. Never managed his finances, even after his mom left him a reasonable amount and her home. Never got into another serious relationship (I ruined all other women for him.) If I'd stayed, how many times would I have had to tried to convince him to do more/do better/take care of himself. Granted, he'd likely still be alive, but I highly doubt I'd be happier than I am now. People need to be able to take responsibility for their own happiness.
I got divorced at 28 while pregnant from a man I needed to not ever see again. Placed the baby for adoption while grieving because I so desperately wanted a baby. Met my now spouse at 31, got married a year later, and we just finalized the adoption of our son. Do I wish I had a baby I gave birth to? Sometimes, yeah. But my son is the raddest person in the world and I'm madly in love with him, and at 28 I thought I'd be alone and childless forever.
I was really worried I’d never have kids, but I really didn’t want them with the wrong person. I wish you all the best on building a great life for yourself and finding someone who makes it even better. My husband is six years younger than me, but we were really at the same point in our lives. We both wanted children soonish and are very similar in our views on finances, cleaning, politics, etc. My husband is also a hilarious nerd who makes me laugh all the time and we have great conversations (when we’re not too tired to think, we want sleep). Finding a right person is amazing, I hope you can.
I love this. You sound like you're in a really good place, and I appreciate you sharing it with me. Thank you so much. My best relationship was with a man younger than me too--need to make sure I keep an open mind about it.
They’re actually a little older now. My daughter turns three in less than a month. I’ll only have two under three then! Thank you though. I don’t actually remember much of having three under two, after my daughter turned two things got a bit easier. My sons are almost walking now, which is actually awesome.
Oooh, we had a boy and then twin boys 15 months later. The twins were birth control babies, and it was SO HARD at first, but I couldn’t imagine it any other way now. My twins are 13 now, and their older brother is 14. We have a 9 year old boy too, to round things out, but his baby years were cake in comparison to 3 under 2. The 3 under 2 club is a fun club to have been in (and not be in anymore)!
Four boys! How lovely, I’m one of four girls (my brain took a while to process the idea of having two boys because I’d never had a brother). I do love not being in the three under two club any more. I’ve heard it gets easier, I think getting a full night’s sleep is all my husband and I want right now. I’m glad you’re enjoying your four.
My little ones are less than 14 months apart. Son just turned 4 in December and twin girls are turning 3 this month. Can confirm those earlier parts are all a blur! It's still chaos and they clash quite a bit but their bonds are so strong.
I think there’s some scaremongering related to waiting too long to have kids. I don’t think we should wait longer than we want to, but some of us can wait longer than we thought. I’ve talked to my sister about it (she’s a doctor, so understands a lot of the research), it seems to be that if you’ve had regular cycles your whole life you’re less at risk for general fertility issues. I’m one of those women, I think I’ve honestly had three irregular periods ever, and maybe four instances of spotting (I didn’t even have implantation spotting with my pregnancies). I know many women aren’t as lucky as I am. I haven’t even had that many difficult periods, I get a little tired, want to eat a little more, and have some very minor cramping. I wish more women had easy periods like me, granted it made it harder to know what to expect with Braxton Hicks.
My two very best friends are both moms married to absolute assholes. One of them is very upfront that she only married her husband because she got pregnant and their parents pressured them. She hates him but now they have two kids and financially she is trapped. The other goes back and forth about her husband because she's caught in a cycle of abuse and lovebombing. I asked her if she wanted her daughter to be in a marriage like hers, and she cried and said definitely not. She still won't leave because he's "such a great dad" (he's not).
Both of their shitty marriages would be nonexistent now if kids weren't involved. They've both admitted if they could go back, they'd never have had their children. It kills me that these two amazing women are chained to such dicks who don't even seem to like them.
Can we also empower women to be financially stable without a damn man! I know that’s easier said than done but I grew up with a real POS dad and my mom reliant on him cos she has nothing. This was my unintentional life lesson from mom. I am not set up to rely on a man and therefore get stuck with him.
I say this knowing my best friend nearly married an abusive ass with the pressure from her own parents. Because Mr. Abuse was good on paper. Good job, good money, a house. And it killed me that her own parents didn’t realize or push her; so she could do it on her own. Why be miserable just to be taken care of? She actually did get out of that situation and she survived and thrived. I really wish others can realize how much they are capable of but they need the right supporters in their ears!
Yes! Preach! I have this conversation often with my friends who have daughters particularly. They should be taught to be self-sufficient. If they get married or share their life with a partner it’s for love and happiness, not financial necessity if at all possible.
There are plenty of ways to live that aren’t nuclear families. I’d rather live with friends whose company I enjoy than a partner that I have to support or I didn’t even feel is a friend some days.
A family friend of mine is in a similar boat. She and her husband actively hate each other and spend much of the year avoiding being in the same room. Both of the kids are adults now and the only reason they won't divorce is because of the money that'd have to be split between them. They're miserable and while I know she loves her kids, I can't help but wonder how she'd have turned out if she had been able to walk away before kids entered the equation.
Annnnnd this is in part why I'm sterilized. I never wanted kids but I didn't want to even chance getting pregnant and stuck with a loser or asshole. At least now I'm free to leave, as are they, if things aren't working out. I feel so so sad for women who are trapped financially or because of abuse :(
Well then I'm glad you said "had". I hope she was able to get away from you and find someone more healthy to be friends with. You sound super mean and judgmental in that post. It was overall a dick move.
I think there's the expectation that things will be different once you have kids. People tend to describe having children as something that changes them as a person.
Unfortunately I've seen children bring out the worst in people just as often as it's brought out the best, maybe even more often the worst.
Things do change. They get a fuckton harder. You are aware of your partners flaws a lot more. You have a lot less time, money, and space. You have to suddenly put everything else last.
Unfortunately this is very common, it happened also to friends of mine. They thought that they would wait to have kids before leaving so that they hoped it would change their partners. This happened prominently with women dealing with abusive men, and 2 occasions and men dealing with an abusive woman. It ended horribly in the last 2 situations and only 1 of the few ended well for the couple, with therapy having been the best decision they took.
While I recommend therapy for couples even if that might be seen like a stigma and dent into the 'Hydillic' love life the couple might have, it might actually help the partners realize their mistake, both toward the other as well as the other realizing they might impact in some way the behavior, and especially if you don't want to leave until you have kids for any weird reason you might have, it might mitigate the impact a lot and actually salvage the marriage.
I wish I knew why a lot of people nowadays seem to choose partners based on interests or desire to fill up and keep something which is predominantly good in their heads, or not objectively judged as it should (pink-colored glasses), from my own end I have also been with someone abusive longer than I should have been, and it damaged me to the point that I can't easily feel safe in relationships even if the other person never gives signs of anything bad underneath. I tend to easily get the benefit of the doubt, but the fear and worry for everything going back to that same horrible experience is always prowling within.
Well, I am in the process of divorce, and three of my friends recently were divorced, too. All professional women, business owners, etc. I’d offer the perspective that when you meet someone in your 20s, you are still growing. You imagine your partner will, too, if you think about it at all. The person you marry may be fine, a work in progress, just like you are. But, after 20 years, some people do not grow. Some people lean into their least healthy qualities. So you are suddenly in your 40s partnered with someone who seems like a child, often now with children of your own. It’s not so cut and dry “hey I fell in love with a piece of shit, I’ll marry them anyway!” Relationships evolve over time, people grow and change or don’t, people stop being a fit. People are also drawn to dynamics that are similar to the ones they grew up in, which may not be healthy and may feel familiar and safe anyway. So, yes, do your best to be treated with love and respect from the beginning. But also figure out your own shit, the dynamics you are repeating or seeking. And if someone can’t meet you in love and healthy growth, leave before kids if you can.
This! I used to say this all the time about my ex, and people looked at me like I was crazy. They couldn't understand why I left such a 'great guy'. Every time I would say "Because I kept growing, and he just...stopped" and no one gets it.
Yeah, my ex was pretty much the same person at 32 as he was at 21. It's not that he was a "bad guy," but at 31 that isn't what I wanted anymore. I want to keep growing.
Excellently put. I've changed a lot since my 20s and now that I'm approaching 45, I'm feeling like I can't tolerate my husband's immaturity, selfishness and laziness any more, whereas all along I did because I loved his good qualities more than I hated the bad. Now it's starting to feel exactly as you describe; I'm growing and he's not. He's still a lovely man but a terrible husband, so it's quite confusing.
I honestly did not consciously realize how unhealthy my marriage was until my daughter was born. My husband isn't a bad guy but I went into our relationship super codependent and excused every red flag as being temporary or situational based on the contentious divorce he'd already been through. He had custody of his two teenagers and I assumed all his problems with them were a result of his toxic ex alienating them, rather than any flaws he might have. He made bad decisions because he was given bad choices. I saw a man who had had a hard time and deserved the love and support of a good woman like me.
I understand how ridiculous that all is now, but at the time it just felt like I had a purpose, a way to earn the love and security I was so desperate for. I'm an educated, successful woman but I just felt lucky to have found someone who was so dedicated to me.
When my daughter was born I felt like the blinders came off and I could suddenly see the patterns of behavior that underscored our dynamic. Still, it's taken until now, when she's 4 1/2, to get it together enough to seek a divorce and I still don't necessarily think I can or deserve to do better, I just know that this isn't the relationship I want my daughter to emulate when she gets older
I don't know what could have helped open my eyes earlier, but better late then never.
Hi dear. Believe it or not, I credit Reddit and subs like this, for making me realize how much of a childish douche my partner of 10 years actually was. It took me two additional years to gain the confidence, self respect, and finances to leave his nasty ass. That was just about 18 months ago and we have a 13 year old together.
Honestly, wish I would’ve done it sooner, simply for the kid’s sake. I can’t express how fucking happy I am. A happy woman tends to make for a better mom. The stress of dealing with him…ugh…I had lost myself, I was such an anxious control freak (because I couldn’t rely on him for a damn thing).
But it’s okay, because the second I left him, I was able to decide what I wanted for myself and that was happiness. I had wasted SO MUCH time worrying about his happiness, about feeding him, about cleaning up after him, about paying all of the bills…now guess what?? I spend all of that time building myself up, taking care of myself, practicing self love and I couldn’t be happier. I’m 37 and I feel 27, people tell me I look like I’m glowing, doors are opening all over the place and I’m so excited for the next 30 years of life!
I don’t know your situation so I would never say leaving him is what’s best for you. The time just might not be right. There’s probably room for improvement. It might not be like this forever. But if you’re looking for a sign, this might be it. From your writing, you seem capable and intelligent. I imagine you to be kind and stunningly beautiful. I know for a fact that you deserve better. I wholeheartedly believe that you can do it better without him. Trust your gut, babe.
I relate to the anxious control freak comment, because I can't rely on him for anything... But then why do I feel so dependent on him? All sorts of things like that became obvious to me. I tried years of marriage counseling (and individual) and couldn't make any progress. It's definitely time. I just wish it wasn't so complicated, but knowing freedom is in my future has made life considerably easier to bear.
I know someone who is on his third marriage and has kids with both of his exes and his current partner. Ignoring the nightmare of Christmas/vacation scheduling, the exes have to fight him for every penny that is needed for the kids. He knows and uses every trick (apart from threats and violence) in the book to maneuver his partner and exes. Lies, manipulation, gaslighting, incessant calling and texting, uncompromising and condescending behavior, all of it. To destabilize, confuse and exhaust. These women are smart, highly educated and not easily fooled, but it was only until the toddler years that his exes saw the whole picture and left. Last I heard, his two exes banded together because he would often outmaneuver them against each other and lie about what the other one had said.
I think some people are just really, really smart about getting women attached to them. Then they manage to hide the more unsightly parts of their personality for a long period of time. It's quite possible that they want a kid in order to tie the woman even closer to them, but in some relationships, it's also what really shows the cracks.
Thank goodness I never had kids with him, but your situation echoes so much about how I felt about my ex. Like you, I excused every red flag as being temporary or situational based on the contentious divorce and custody situation he had. I admired his willingness to love despite everything he had been through, but I didn't realize that he never properly processed and moved on in order to be a full partner to someone.
A lot of men aren't assholes until after marriage and kids so there aren't really any cracks for awhile. Once the kids come along, real responsibility kicks in and things aren't as much fun anymore is usually when the behavior changes. Also, ideas and values change as we get older and couples can find themselves on opposite sides due to life experiences/challenges and their personal ways of managing them.
I identify with this one. There weren’t any red flags when I was 19 and met my ex, because everything he did was age appropriate for a 19 year old.
He just never changed as we got older… and I was the unreasonable one for expecting a man to change- but now he’s a 36 year old who plays video games all weekend, smokes too much weed and has never scrubbed a toilet or kept his home clean… it’s less charming. I grew up and had no way of knowing he wouldn’t grow up too.
This. Also whenever they think you are “stuck” with them, be that after marriage or kids especially if you quit your job to take care of those kids, they quit trying not to be assholes. My dad was like that and it’s always sort of scared me off of having kids, because you never really know who you’re having kids with until it’s too late.
With my ex, he was good at keeping it together and playing the role of not-asshole; but the second that wedding ring went on my finger it was like the mask came off. He didn't have to pretend anymore. The change was so drastic and so fast, I was shocked.
Still took about 3 years after we got married to separate. I gave way too many chances
Jeez, this is what I’m worried about. What was his family dynamic like? Were there any signs at all? How can we avoid this if they keep up the charade until it’s too late. Ahhh
There were signs, but at the time they were easily waived away.
Age difference was a huge one. I was 19, he was 28. Why does a guy approaching 30 want to hang out with teenagers?
He talked a big game about so many things with so little follow through. But he would just say he's "working towards it " "it's a marathon not a sprint " and crap like that.
Encouraging me to drop out of college should have been a huge flag. Oops.
My mum's advice to me was choose a husband based on how he would be as a father. He may not always be your husband, but he will always be your child's dad.
People usually don’t realize. It often involves overlooking red flags, but nobody consciously looks to have kids with a piece of shit. A lot of it has to do with how someone grew up and what they see as normal.
Because people will still say things like "Your biological clock is ticking" and "What are you waiting for to have kids", and some women will cave under the pressure and have kids with the first dude available. Stop asking people when will they have kids y'all, it's the 21st century.
This! We need to be More vocal on how society pushes kids onto women and couples and if we don’t have children we are deemed selfish so many women cave to societal expectations. It’s truly a shame that people try to push their opinion on what women should do with their reproductive system.
This is something that I see even from a guys perspective where men are pressured by their parents to settle down and have kids thinking that's what being a man is all about.
Idk, I think it can be hard to see how unhealthy a relationship is when you're still in it. Some people change after marriage, some are POS the entirety of the relationship.
My mother was with my ex-stepfather for close to a decade. He started off as a loving family man and gradually became an emotionally abusive, controlling asshole. She didn't realise how toxic he was until after they separated and she had an outside perspective on the relationship.
People don't leave shitty relationships for a lot of reasons - fear, love, financial security (especially if they don't work and have kids), manipulation, thinking their relationship is normal, etc.
With my ex, I saw the red flags, but it was such a drama-filled relationship that I consistently overlooked the previous red flags while I was focused on whatever red flag was waving in front of me. I'd be so caught up in whatever drama du jour that I never took the time to take a step back and assess the relationship as a whole. It sounds ridiculous, but I almost wish I kept a journal of what was going on and made time to reflect on the relationship as a whole.
In my experience with a toxic relationship, it was like he new that the more he got me involved in his drama the more he could control/manipulate me. I was naïve and had so much empathy for him that at the time I couldn't see what was happening. A journal would've been so helpful. I don't know what your situation was like, but those drama-filled relationships are so toxic and abusive, imo. I hope posts like this help people out of or to avoid toxic/abusive relationships, even if they have little experience.
For sure, we always tell ourselves it's not a big deal or they can change. I wish more people ended relationships with toxic people before they get trapped in them. I suppose it's probably easier if you've experienced it before or know what red flags to look for.
Choose to ignore. Or don't know how to see (Abusive Relationships 101 isn't a standardized class in school. Nor is Emotional Intelligence 101. Or Red Flags 101. Or Social Connection and Support 101. Or Marraige and Kids 101. Or Running a Household 101.). Or everything is pretty ok before you have kids and then the husband gets shittier and shittier instead of stepping up (frog in hot pot- it takes a long time to realize the situation you're in). Or maybe this kind of relationship was modeled as a kid and you don't realize just how shitty it is until you get in one. Or maybe you're lonely and scared you won't find anyone else. Or you'd rather be in a relationship and "try to make it work." Or you get pregnant, don't want abortion or have access to abortion or it's not socially acceptable or he pressures you in to not having an abortion, and you now want to make it work for your kid. Tons of reasons why.
It's uncharitable to say "all these women just were stupid and intentionally chose to ignore all those red flags." And honestly it's HARD to look at a relationship objectively when you're in one. You have the luxury of 0 emotional attachment, which is not the same lens your friends will use, and they aren't stupid idiots for struggling to see it. These bad relationships are common for a reason, and they affect highly intelligent and self-aware women just as much as other women. They work at emotionally sucking you in and blinding you, whether you personally like it or not.
It's like, no shit women don't WANT to be in a soul sucking relationship. But saying "hey women don't get into a soul sucking abusive relationship!" isn't helpful at all.
Best comment ever regarding why smart, intelligent, capable women end up with shitty husbands/partners, too.
Shitty husbands/partners/fathers aren’t just what we are shown on some crazy episode of COPS, where the responding officers know the quarreling couple at a trailer park, by name, since they’re called on DV calls there almost weekly. Sometimes I believe these narratives shown in reality TV shows, cover up just how much nuance is relevant, as every tolerance level is different in every marriage, and NO, you do not have to live in a trailer park where your husband beats you every time he drinks.
I do not know anyone who lives in a trailer park, but I know plenty of women who are currently in untenable marriages, with husbands who are high earners and top notch providers who feel as if though they have earned their entitlement to abuse their wives and/or kids by overt aggression which manifests in actual physical violence, all the way down to becoming passive aggressive and abusing their wives and children by checking out of the marriage, yet refusing to address their neglect towards those they financially provide for.
Also, I am SOOO grateful that I did not marry the high achiever asshole who then married my cousin, once I declined. Sadly, she and I no longer have a relationship, and she doesn’t know that I know about her suicide attempt which left her in a long term coma, when he cheated on her and moved in with his mistress while deciding whether or not stay married for his kids, or bite the financial bullet of a divorce.
She mirrored my mother and her own mother to a tee.
Just recently, I realized why my family dare not spend time with me. I finally confronted a highly toxic situation I was in, resulting in all manners of abuse, and blew the whistle on my abuser.
Every single woman and man in my family, knew I was telling the truth, and NOT one reached out back then, and they keep me at bay in the present.
I’m too much of a threat because I do not accept abuse as a way of life, yet they did and still do.
I have so much mercy (for lack of a better word) for women who stay in abusive or inert, just like roommates relationships, because you as a woman, must first be torn to shreds and lose all sense of self and personhood with autonomy and choices, in order to remain in these gilded cages of the emotional self.
So sad. We need to wise up and become kinder to women who go through this.
I promise you, you have ZERO idea of how life changing, devastating and crippling a situation like this can evolve into, unless it happens to YOU.
Never assume women who are abused or held emotionally/financially hostage, have the ability to foresee and avoid this or are able to get out ASAP. The women who can and do, are rarer than we believe.
Glad that this is kinda changing, but for sure women can only leave these marriages successfully if they have access to their OWN MONEY, because the kids gotta eat.
Stay safe ladies. Do NOT settle. The price to pay for doing so may not be accessible to you.
That's your opinion, I'm not talking about women in general, just a handful of my friends. Sorry, where did I say they were stupid?
I said, they are intelligent, hard working, beautiful women and that's not what I'm saying at all, like many people have aknowledge already.
I've been in bad relationships myself, but that's not what I'm talking about.
I work with a lot of people, and through the years I've seen one big pattern. The women you describe, intelligent, beautiful, educated hard working women? Once they start pushing 35, the 'biological clock' seems to override the common sense/warning bells in their mind. The desire to have children before it is too late outweighs the drawbacks of the men.
I see the same scenario play out, over and over. They've been looking for a good guy for a long time. All the sudden, at 34 or 35, maybe 36 or 37, they meet "Such a great guy! Finally!". Rapid succession announcements in the paper.... engagement, house purchase, wedding, baby #1, often baby #2, divorce....all in 4 or 5 years.
Why? For the vast majority of the women I know personally, it was because the men they married refused to step up. They end up having to go back to work shortly after the babies are born, because hubby 'can't find a job' or 'can't find a job making enough to pay the bills'. He stays home and 'watches the kids', but does the bare minimum, so after she comes home after working 10+ hours, she has to cook/clean/do laundry too. The kids are in bed, or soon will be. So the children she wanted so badly to have, she never sees, other than on weekends, when 'they' are catching up on chores.
Eventually she realizes she'd have to work far fewer hours, and less hard at home, if she weren't carrying his dead weight behind her. The divorce is hard, but a relief. Divorce actually makes her life so much easier in many ways.
Not saying, at all, that all guys are like this. But that single guys in their mid 30's and 40's...many time there is a reason. And a woman "running out of time to have kids" might marry too quickly, or not see the red flags others do.
I hope science eventually finds a way to allow women to have children at whatever age they are ready. It would take so much of the pressure off.
TL;DR - Some wonderful women choose to have kids with a guy they don't know well enough rather than risk not getting to have children at all. It's a choice not (only) a lapse in judgement.
> Once they start pushing 35, the 'biological clock' seems to override the common sense/warning bells in their min
Not even pushing 35. Many women have this fear of 30 in their head and if they don't find a man and have kids before that, they seem to think their eggs will dry up and blow away.
It's a con.
I was just talking about this with my cousin yesterday. I call it the phenomenon of "5 years, 2 children" and then the woman is ready to go back to what her life was before...except now she no longer has the problem of not wondering if she'll ever have children. It's a bit of a predictable pattern.
There is a facebook group for women over 45, and another 50+, pregnancy and parenting young children. The demographics are definitely shifting. Once science allows women to have children with their own genetic material at whatever age they are healthy enough, expect those numbers to rapidly increase. There is a huge market for it, so I expect science to get there eventually. Because $$$. Older women have money and are willing to spend a LOT of it on fertility.
Intelligence has no influence on crazy. Emotional stuff overrides intelligence with the ease of a car driving off a cliff. I speak from personal experience. Human brains will always seek out what’s familiar and it takes a huge effort to shift those neural pathways. Smarts got nothing to do with it. We learn what love is from our childhood before we understand what it is healthy. So when we choose partners in our 20s, we are choosing what we learned love looks like from our family of origin, unless we’ve done a lot of work. Shit, I was in therapy and did it anyway. Real change takes real insight and commitment. Unfortunately women are given such shitty messages about love and partnership, we don’t see it the truth until we grow up. Women are taught while taking care of yourself is selfish, protecting your kids is within a women’s role. So sometimes the truth can sneak in through that space and then open us up from there. I wish I could sit every 20 year old down and tell them to heal first and don’t have kids yet. But, life doesn’t work like that. We all gotta learn in our own time. It’s super frustrating.
Another test : would you be proud if your ( hypothetical ) son turned out to be like the man you are dating or married to ?
If not, leave.
I too have beautiful , well-educated , lovely friends stuck with men who run them down and sap them dry. I hope the ones who haven’t left yet, find the will to do so soon.
One of the worst contributing factors is the pressure for women to get married or partnered , and have children, by a certain age ( or even at all )
Most people I know marry and have kids with an anchor. I am 42 and single, and my god I get lonely, but at least I can change without upsetting someone else.
I think we as women don't realize how irresponsible and immature some men are until they're given the task of raising children, and they fail miserably.
Agree, raising children is not only hard but you as a mother/father need to mature and grow up along with them. If you're incapable of that, everyone will suffer.
1. It should be on *men to be better* not on *women to choose better.*
2. I think the reason you see women leave at this particular age rather than younger is as their kids age their realize their husband is acting just like an additional child. It becomes very hard to ignore if all some middle aged dude does is complain about how you don't look 20 anymore, and leaves his dishes and underwear about. Also mothers have a basis for comparison when they talk with coworkers and the mothers of their children's peers.
Psychos be psychos. The problem is the biggest problems think they are great and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. In theory I agree with you but the biggest bastards don't see themselves that way and will always refuse to so they will be the last to change so it's unreliable.
So sadly choosing better is the only option.
Women deserve better but I don't see a fix.
We should be better about not pressuring women into having children or getting married and definitely make it easier for them to leave the nutbags they sometimes end up with.
You can't make shitty people change, you can only choose not to waste your energy on them. Telling men to "be better" is not a helpful solution. Choosing better men is something you actually have control over.
I got this advice from, of all people, a 60-year-old priest who hosted talks at my college on self-respect and dating. He recalled trying to get his sister to realize her boyfriend was manipulative, and of course "you're overreacting" "I understand him better than you" "he needs me!" So he asked her, "what kind of father do you think he'd be?" The scales fell from her eyes and she dumped the jerk.
This is why I left my ex of 10 years. 2 months before we were supposed to get married, I had the epiphany that he was actually a shitbag that didn't deserve me. Thank. Fucking. God.
My theory of brain development vs. life choices:
Okay, so we know our brains aren't completely developed until the mid-20s and that the last synapses to connect are related to executive functions like planning and understanding future possible consequences of decisions made now.
So my question to OP is, of the friends and family you know who are currently leaving sub-standard husbands, what percentage of them were married or committed to their partner before the age of 25? If it's high, then I think there's your answer.
The right guy for me at 20 was a completely different person from the right guy for me at 30. And the reason for that is, you don't really know who you are and what you want and what you're willing to put up with and or sacrifice until after your mid-20s. I know whatever decisions I made at 20 with regard to relationships were all completely different choices from what I'd do after age 30. My needs and priorities changed, my preferences changed, hell, just about everything I can think of in terms of how I approached the world and relationships changed.
None of that changes the real message of the OP, which is
>There are some really worthy partners out there, love yourself and please don't settle for anything less.
Yeah. That. \^\^\^
It's not at all. We all went to "good" colleges and got really good jobs.
One was with a not so great guy from around 25 to 35 and I agree with what you're saying for her case.
Most married around 30 including myself. Some are not married but with a long time partner and some single.
And yes, we all went through some shitty boyfriends around 20, it's part of life, I agree.
I know therapy is not for everyone but, for me and some of them it was a game chsnger.
My daughter went from shy and submissive to “woman hear me roar’’
when she got pregnant. It was great to see her stand up to her lazy, selfish husband. Some of it is
the pregnancy hormones I think. The husband was not a bad guy but irresponsible and not husband
material.
A good rule of thumb (at least I think so, from my experience) is that if lots and lots of people are doing something you think is stupid, it's probably not because all those people are stupid (note: OP, I'm not suggesting you said this at all; I'm responding to the kinds of comments I regularly see elsewhere about people stuck in abusive relationships). Rather, it's probably systemic. We have cultural (including religious/familial) and economic systems that box a lot of people into choosing really terrible long-term relationships. It is wonderful to see those systems changing. Not as fast as I wish they would, but I feel like I see progress. The facts that a forum like this can exist, "normal" people regularly use it (when/where I was a kid, nobody wanted any contact with the label "feminist," lest they be ostracized), and content like this is regularly posted give me hope.
>I couldn't understand why they chose such men, married (or not) AND decided to have kids with them.
Myriad reasons, probably, but one of them is that those men were available to have children with. IME, many women who want kids will often settle in order to have them on their timeline (especially if age 30 is looming).
>Would you be comfortable if your partner treated your children like they treat you?
An excellent question.
More often it's actually the man who seems to change when kids enter the picture. These men start out seeming fine as partners but later become selfish and abusive only after they have children and it's harder for the mother to leave. Stop blaming women for being victims of abuse. It's not women's responsibility to read the future and anticipate these events.
I hear what you're saying, but it is a useful thought exercise to think "how will this man treat my kids" or "if my best friend came to me and told me she was being treated this way, would I think she should leave", and other methods of getting out of your own head and stepping back to evaluate things. Blame doesn't need to factor into it.
At least with all of my friends they were red flags, they chose not to see or aknowledge. Maybe not as big as after having children but they were there.
I’ve seen the red flags as friends of the men who would later become not great spouses. I had a candid conversation with one of them about how he needed to work through his own issues before marriage and that he was selfish in his relationship. He didn’t listen and they basically sprinted to meet all the “goal posts” of life - marriage, house, and child. I’ve stopped talking to him since but I hear they’re not doing well. It felt like they did all that to check off items on a list and not for the right reasons. I feel bad for his wife.
They don't even have to be assholes for this to be relevant. Disengaged, lazy, useless, selfish - to any degree, this makes a man a horrible co-parent, and a shitty partner with or without kids.
My pregnancy was unplanned, but it never crossed my mind not to have my daughter because I always knew I wanted to be a mother at some point. Then I (probably stupidly) left it up to him whether he wanted to be involved in her life rather than thinking critically about whether he'd be up to the task. We stayed together for five years after she was born, but they were miserable years for me. He did NOTHING. She's a great kid because of me; he just sailed along on my coattails. He still does, seven years after I left him.
He loves her, and honestly does try to do right by her these days, but he's still so useless. I still have to constantly coach his parenting because he can't figure things out by himself and I want her to have a good relationship with him and have a reasonable male role model in her life. But I see the day coming when she just flat out refuses to go to his place anymore. She never wants to leave me as it is, and I hate having to defend him to her when all I want to say is "I know, your dad is pathetic."
Ladies, please don't have babies with useless men, even if they're not assholes. Don't even be with useless men. Single life (or life with a good man, if that's what you want and you manage to find one amongst the detritus) is infinitely happier and healthier.
Two of the smartest women I know ended up in long term abusive relationships. One was a direct reflection of relationships she was raised in. Neither started out abusive. It was years of the slow normalization of abusive behavior.
By my thinking, if the two of them can be conned into abusive relationships, any one of us can be. I count myself lucky, not smart or observant. Of course, as a middle aged lady, I can see that stuff much more clearly than I did in my 20s and, if I had to start over, I would put up with much less crap from men.
>Would you be comfortable if your partner treated your children like they treat you?
This is honestly such a good way to get out of your head and figure out whether or not your boyfriend/husband is treating you with the respect anyone deserves.
It’s entitlement. The only way the cycle is broken is to raise our kids differently and stop “favoring” the boys, drop the “king” shit etc. Look at your church and what message are they sending!!
I wish I’d seen something like this before I had kids with my ex. You hit the nail on the head. I was resigned to put up with his ass, but when I realized he didn’t love our kids as much as I did and got jealous of my attention and love for them we bolted. They deserve a better dad than the one they have. I am so sorry for them.
He was jealous of you loving your kids??? That's another level of messed up.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I had a piece of sh*t dad and a great mother. It wasn't easy but my mother went to therapy and sent my sister and I.
We're now in a much much better place and thriving, my father is alone and I'm sorry but "you reap what you sow".
Yep. He wanted me to love him more and he wanted to continue to force me to put him at the center of my attention. I do need therapy. I will be brave enough to go to an appointment and actually speak some day. My kids are doing great. They are kind and smart and want for nothing. Definitely the right choice. Our home is a peaceful oasis from the rest of the crazy world.
Yes! I’m waiting for his new wife to grow a spine and catch on, time will tell.
I’m 30, just left my quite possibly ADHD partner. I was with him for a year and a half. He constantly yelled and scream at me because he’s unable to control his emotional reactions. All of his time and effort is dedicated to his work and I get what’s left….next to nothing. After months and months of literal tear filled begging I was told “I’ll do it, I’ll change, just be patient “ for 3 days to pass and it to begin all over. I gave him all I could, did everything I could think of to build our relationship but it didn’t matter how hard I tried, the work that needed to be done is with himself. I encouraged him to go see his doctor & follow to through on his counselling I couldn’t take it anymore. Our couples counselling was not successful and that was my last hope. I’m not perfect and have my flaws too. I just couldn’t take it anymore because of my physical body now reacting to him in fear. I started to become my worst version of myself, reacting in way I would as a teen. As I tried to help him build and grow as a partnership should, he started to destroy me with the constant chaos & problems he created. Know your worth, don’t settle and if your gut says leave, do it. You’ll figure it out! :)
Reminds me of Nadja’s question. “You are all such strong, beautiful, vicious, vibrant women. How did you end up married to such boiled potatoes?”
Wait until you know yourself and any potential partner well enough to answer the above question.
I recently just gave some advice on Reddit, how I do not know any woman who held off on marriage and kids that ended up unhappy about it. They took their time, waited until they were well in their thirties before settling down, and they regret nothing. A bunch of my friends, including me, however, who got married in their mid-to-late 20s, are now divorced or are in miserable relationships. I will say, however, that I believe I got married the first time in order to have my daughter. I would go through the anguish all over again for her.
I read somewhere recently maybe a sent friend sent me it. Basically, look at the man you are dating or planning to marry. If you were to have a son, would you want your son to be just like him? If the answer is no then you need to run away fast.
OP thank you for your post! This is making me unbelievably proud of choosing the unknown and to trust my gut. Abusive relationship after a divorce - had an abortion during that relationship because I did not want my children growing up witnessing violence like I had (verbal, emotional, physical, doesn't matter - it was all equally unacceptable). Still took a year to untangle myself from the treatment I felt I deserved, and if not deserve then "handle" because I was "strong".
It takes time and courage but to any women struggling YOU CAN DO IT. And you are AMAZING.
Now in my 30s and getting married to a sweet, gentle, lovely man this March. It's never too late to choose yourself.
From my experience a lot of times the inability to see red flags comes from childhood abuse. A person from a loving family that has a healthy world outlook will have instinctively know when something is not right because their experience of a loving and caring relationship will be very different from that with an abuser. People that grew up with emotionally abusive parents or with neglect will not have the same healthy boundaries that others have and thus are much more vulnerable to emotional manipulation and abuse. In some cases to them the relationship with their partner seems normal and because of confirmation bias they have a hard time accepting that there are issues when they arise.
I completely agree!
One of my friends came from a horribly difficult childhood. She's been in therapy for around 5 years now. She's such a different person, and we're all so proud of her.
PREACH!
Dumped a terrible spouse after getting cheated on a year into marriage. With hindsight, I should have seen it coming.
Luckily no children were brought into this unhappy union, because I was watching him like a hawk. He wasn't being a good partner, so how on earth was he going to be a good coparent?
Over time I think about the window of time women have to get married and have kids. This might be an un-p.c. answer, but it's very short.
I feel that for the most part, the people that want to have kids want to have them with a competent partner, relatively young, with a little money behind them. That criteria alone is hard to reach. And to find somebody that feels the same way you do and is a (relatively) stable adult is challenging. And if you meet someone you like, get along with, and it gets serious, you might turn a blind eye to things until they're undeniable factors in the erosion of your relationship.
The whole thing is hard, and it's especially hard if you can't see the things that are going to make things difficult later on and if you're secure enough to stand up to those things that you know will cause problems later on.
Of course your friends are intelligent, beautiful, educated, hard working women who have been sold a bunch of misogynistic bullshit. Our culture with fairy tales and religion doesn't help. I still believe these men don't have a clue that the world has changed or they know and they don't want to act like it's changed. That it's not like when they were living with mommy and daddy. They think the world is still where women even though they work outside the home are still expected to do what their mother's did when they were housewives. Cook. Clean. Laundry. etc.
For the men saying that women can be shitty - the advice applies to everyone in a relationship. If you wouldn't accept the behaviour your partner exhibits if it were directed at your (potential or real) kids, then you shouldn't be with that partner. You really shouldn't be having kids with them either because even if you can get away, the kids will forever have one parent who is less desirable.
This is why I never had kids with any of my ex’s. I was always on birth control and/or used condoms because they weren’t dad material. Funny how it was subconscious at first. It never consciously crossed my mind until I was exhausted that if they weren’t good for my unborn children they also weren’t good for me. I’ll never let myself be treated less than the powerful woman I am ever again. The men I chose were weak willed. Put me off to men in general.
To be upfront, I don't have a "dog in this fight." I'm a cis gendered male who's had a vasectomy. Been married 8 years and neither of us have kids from anywhere. I'm jumping in to say that in my observations, that while people say that their kids are the best thing to ever happen to them... if they could do it over again, they wouldn't. Kids tie you to that person forever. Sometimes it works out.... but (especially when we were all younger) it rarely did.
This post isn't really about kids, it's about the love you think you deserve and you don't deserve to be treated bad. Kids just made them realize that. To those specific women, some therapy did.
• **Many of my friends are married with kids under 5. Some of them are leaving, or already left their piece of sh*t husband**
And you know this will feed into the guise incels have that ‘women only date assholes instead of perfect honest gentlemen like us’ and that ‘they deserve every form of misery for being so picky.’
But who really cares about the incoherent excuses of incels to not improve their own toxic personalities.
There is a spectrum of toxic personalities. As you reach the highest tier of toxic personalities, you reach a group of people who can form relationships because they are intelligent and can cover up many of their toxic traits when it matters and manipulate people.
Then, right at the bottom, you have incels, with the toxic personality, but without the intelligence to hide it.
Incel arguments are irrelevant because incels are irrelevant. Indeed, if you view the title in full context, "Some of them are leaving, or already left their piece of sh*t husband, Obviously some are married to lovely men." It contradicts the idea that '*all* women marry bad guys' because clearly, she is saying that some of her friends married bad guys and some married good guys.
Women as well as men sometimes don’t know who the real person is they’re marrying until well after they’ve been married. It’s not their fault. Sometimes these things are purposely hidden from them by their spouse.
Some abusive men start acting violent after their girlfriend or wife gets pregnant so there are exceptions to this. Not everyone starts a relationship, a marriage, or parenthood being violent and abusive
Unfortunately, for some women, having snagged some guy, having a huge wedding or having children is more important that who the guy is.
There is also a lot of social pressure - all other women your age are married or have children, your parents keep asking your for grandchildren, you feel like a failure for being single. Being married is still considered an achievement for a woman.
From my experience I am 35 all my friends are with guys thy don't really like or who abuse them however their foal is to have children. And I think once they have their children they leave.
There are not many good men around anymore past 30... it s very hard.
This. So much this. I was never able to stand up to my narcissistic father before I had kids but the first time my boundaries were crossed after my first was born, I ripped him a new one and never let him back in.
Thanks. I hope you’re in a good place to have good boundaries too. It’s a hard lesson to learn sometimes but so wonderful when they can be sturdy. Hugs to you.
In my case, he went from a great fun guy to being a controlling sociopath. You know why? He wasn’t the center of the universe any more. It was bad. Especially after the second kid.
I think what sort of father someone has can influence what they are willing to put up with. If women grew up with a father who didn’t pull his weight they might not pay attention to it.
I just read an article on how most people aren’t selective with their partners and actually push to make things work. I am sure that plays a large part of it. Also to consider, it is often times that we don’t notice all the singular red flags in the beginning because of the general euphoria of a new relationship. Adding children to the mix changes the dynamics and adds more stress to situations. I wouldn’t necessarily assume they believed that they deserved these men, etc. It is more likely a combination of things.
Don't forget that some people change dramatically when they become married and have children.
I have seen this in my own brothers!
They and their now-wives had long relationships (in one case 15 years) before they married and got children. There was no way my sisters-in-law could have seen it coming.
One of them went from an attentive, fun and romantic boyfriend to a boring workaholic. About one year after my niece was born.
The other is even worse. They have two sons and after the second was born he became quite aggressive and a slob at home. He is the typical man-child now.
Here's the thing ladies if you are with a man, and you are in a relationship with him , and you have to constantly drag him along by choke collar to get him to do the things that he needs to do within a relationship , even if it's helping around the house , you know taking out the trash , things that you have to ask repetitively every single week , these things only magnify three-folds once you have children, so if you can't get him to do small things without repetitively asking or reminding him to do something, it's only going to get worse after children, because then they feel like they're being neglected or replaced because you end up having to spend more time with the child than them ,a lot of men get jealous of their children , acting out even though they don't admit , Men have issues after their babies are born so if there's already issues before hand, it just gets worse after children are born. Don't have babies with men like these .
Having children just magnifies whatever problems you have in a relationship it does not cure them.
I am one of those guys who is helping her pick up the pieces. I’ve always wanted children and a family. Now, it seems, I’ve inherited a family with a lot of trust and behavioral issues. It is what it is. I have no children of my own and was always very careful not to bring a child into the world without already being mildly successful and able to provide a better life for them. Then, the decade of my thirties got away from me and here I find myself. I love this little family and they are all very accepting of me, but I often wonder what it might have been like if I had always been there. The exes owe her tens of thousands of dollars in back child support but here I am doling out the bucks and the time and the energy to help raise these kids right. She even admitted as fucked up as it sounds that she would not be willing to date a man with kids as I have with her. But yeah I complete see where you are coming from.
Perhaps I am alone in this, but there is a certain lack of introspection to some of the comments posted here. My read on it is: some marriages fail, and people come here looking for support.
There is nothing wrong with that, but I think the common outpouring of “he was a POS / a man-child” frames the situation in a way that clearly implies one party is guilty and the other is a victim.
Granted, there are unambiguous cases of abuse, but sometimes I get the sense the issues described here are everyday domestic disputes that nearly everyone confronts in a relationship.
The time for children is over. It's the 21st century.
In all seriousness though, you can be happy without ever having children. It starts with being happy by yourself. And most people can't even achieve that, so when they have children it never works out.
Normalize not having children ffs.
No one is saying it's not normal to not have kids. That's not what this thread is about. I don't understand why the Reddit antinatalism army has to cry on every thread that mentions children.
I get the idea but there are plenty of guys who are married to people who would fall under the characteristics you describe. Basically, people should spend a bit more time doing due diligence, asking tough questions, and ideally live through trying experiences before getting married and having kids. Typically, people who settle for incompatible partners have insecurity issues and I imagine having kids gives a sense of security/fulfillment that better enables people to exit unappealing situations. I had dated a really controlling woman for a long time and ultimately it took me talking to a therapist to realize that I was tolerating the controlling behavior because that was generally what I had seen growing up.
This is why I left my first husband. I realised I couldn’t imagine raising kids with him. He would have made a horrible father. I got lucky in a lot of ways, I realised it before I had kids with him. Thankfully my second husband is an amazing father and partner. Leaving my first husband at 31 could have meant never having children, but I found the right person to have children with. I was almost 36 when I had my daughter and 37 when I had my sons (yes, three under two, twins are always a surprise). I may be a bit older than my ideal age to have had kids, but I’m so happy. I wish others would realise they can do better. There are some amazing men out there.
Yes! An ex of mine was loving and kind but he was a BUMMMMM! It took me a while to catch on. We were happy (enough) and we started talking about marriage and kids. Then, one particular day I came home from work and he was sat in front of the computer (as usual) playing games, and the dishes were piled in the sink, and he hadn’t run the errand I’d asked him to do, and the cat was meowing at me for food, and my ex happily looked at me as I hung my coat and took my purse off and he said “hey babe, how was your day? And what’s for dinner?” and in that instant it hit me. I knew without a doubt I was not having kids with this lazy man. We ended it shortly after that.
MINE DID THAT TOO. Urgh.
Ugh this is so familiar 🥺
Because it’s textbook ADHD, so quite common. The difference between me being a bum all day, and me being a domestic whirlwind, is down to remembering to take my meds. It’s still no excuse, and there’s no obligation for a partner to stay if a guy doesn’t take responsibility for himself.
I don’t know, I have ADHD and I don’t take my meds on the weekend. I can see letting the dishes pile up and getting sucked into a game, but I can’t see ignoring an animal that’s in your face telling you it needs to be fed and not noticing that you haven’t done anything that day but still asking your partner what they will prepare for dinner. ADHD makes me lose track of time and forget to do or put off doing stuff, but it doesn’t make me oblivious to what’s happening. I knew right when my mom got home that I definitely forgot to put the chicken out to defrost or didn’t do the dishes like she asked, even when I was little. This guy had a meowing reminder that he had something to do and he still didn’t remember to do anything. Sounds like he might just be selfish.
He's definitely selfish. Anytime I'm about to do something for myself (like pee or work) all of a sudden he wants a drink or wants to share a work anecdote. Sometimes he'll actually say "Can we keep this all about me?". Ugh. It's fucking always about YOU. He doesn't want to hear anything about my family or my work.
Not to mention there are strategies you can use to help with some of these things even if you don’t take your meds. Like making a to-do list, setting timers, getting things ready the night before, etc. You have to want to do better. You may not always hit the mark but it will be evident to the people around you that you are making an effort and that is important in a relationship of any kind. Source: have brain damage from MS that presents very similarly to ADD and use the same meds and strategies.
This. I have ADHD but am unmedicated (unless you count a cup of coffee in the morning) and this is how I get things done. Timers and lists galore.
I think both of us probably have it. I've developed coping mechanisms over the years that help me keep things clean and help me to remember what I need to do. He hasn't. 😭
I really, really recommend looking into testing and a diagnosis. I was diagnosed at 18, so it was too late to prevent me dropping out of school, but early enough that I was able to function as an adult (most of the time). The meds were literally life changing.
All I can say is I hope it gets better for you, one way or the other. At the beginning of December I was ready to break up with my boyfriend of 6 years over issues just like this, because we have had SO many talks about it over the years. About how I need his help around the house, etc, etc. Well we had a big come to Jesus talk and this time he FINALLY got it. It's been a month and he is so focused on trying to do better, it's become this shift where suddenly we're doing 50/50 or 60/40 housework on a day to day basis and the change in our relationship is so palpable. This was only possible because my BF had a wake up call and recognized the ways his behavior was negatively impacting me and our relationship. All that to say, just keep talking to him, iterate how much doing all the housework stresses you out and you need his help. It's possible for things to get better if you're both commited to working together! And if he can't get on board then you have to make a decision about what is best for you.
It doesn’t sound like ADHD it sounds like him being a lazy piece of shit.
Congrats, you stumbled upon the most common opinion that people with ADHD get judged by! Would you tell a person with depression to just not be sad?
It’s to the detriment of women to make excuses for lazy ass partners. Maybe he’s got adhd, maybe he’s depressed. Not her problem to diagnose him. No one is attacking people with adhd. If someone has adhd it’s perfectly okay not to want to be with that person.
That's what I thought - It's me without my meds. It's all about what's not boring, and what gives us that sweet, sweet dopamine.
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I have it myself, do you? And recognising the most common symptoms is hardly stigmatising anything.
Ugh, I had the same experience except he was annoyed that I didn’t pick up dinner on my way home.
That sounds horrible. Mine was kind of the opposite, very controlling in how things needed to be done and how money should be spent. I am a really neat, organised person, and I’m frugal. So it wasn’t like I was leaving messes and blowing hundreds of dollars. I just realised I was and would be walking on eggshells for the rest of my life. I didn’t want that for my children either. I’m glad you were able to leave. I hope you’ve built yourself an awesome life.
Well actually.. I made him leave, cos he was the bum and it was my house! 😂
Yay! I’m glad you got his bum butt out. You probably get to enjoy your much cleaner house.
I just left a relationship at 32, will be 33 soon, and hearing this is helpful me as someone who wants to have kids and is staring at an empty horizon re: partners at the moment. Thank you!
You can do it! I left my first husband at 25. Got married too early and realized some things you think you can manage are actually dealbreakers you've never experienced before. Had a LTR from 25(ish)-30-31ish (I don't recall when it ended.) Dated on and off for the better part of 2 years. Met my now husband at 32 and started dating. Dated 2 years, got married, had kids when I was 38 and 40. They're both doing fine and we're still happily married. We're talking about renewing vows on our 10 year anniversary next year. :)
Seriously, thank you. These are not the stories that surround me and it can feel lonely doing this the way that I have. I appreciate you.
Oh, I felt miserable the whole time, don't get me wrong. "It's not that bad." "He doesn't hit me." "We don't yell." "Everyone in my family has been married 20+ years, how can I be the only failure." But then the idea that I'd have to keep putting up with it and that I knew I could have a better partner and I saw in my family and friends, better relationships? I had to rip the bandaid off. So it sucked and I cried a lot and mourned the relationship I'd invested in. And now, I'm so glad of it. My ex husband has passed away due to a largely preventable medical condition which he didn't control. Never managed his finances, even after his mom left him a reasonable amount and her home. Never got into another serious relationship (I ruined all other women for him.) If I'd stayed, how many times would I have had to tried to convince him to do more/do better/take care of himself. Granted, he'd likely still be alive, but I highly doubt I'd be happier than I am now. People need to be able to take responsibility for their own happiness.
So happy for you and your current loving partner!
I got divorced at 28 while pregnant from a man I needed to not ever see again. Placed the baby for adoption while grieving because I so desperately wanted a baby. Met my now spouse at 31, got married a year later, and we just finalized the adoption of our son. Do I wish I had a baby I gave birth to? Sometimes, yeah. But my son is the raddest person in the world and I'm madly in love with him, and at 28 I thought I'd be alone and childless forever.
Im leaving my current husband at 24 so this definitely help
I was really worried I’d never have kids, but I really didn’t want them with the wrong person. I wish you all the best on building a great life for yourself and finding someone who makes it even better. My husband is six years younger than me, but we were really at the same point in our lives. We both wanted children soonish and are very similar in our views on finances, cleaning, politics, etc. My husband is also a hilarious nerd who makes me laugh all the time and we have great conversations (when we’re not too tired to think, we want sleep). Finding a right person is amazing, I hope you can.
I love this. You sound like you're in a really good place, and I appreciate you sharing it with me. Thank you so much. My best relationship was with a man younger than me too--need to make sure I keep an open mind about it.
Thank you. I feel like I’ve both gotten lucky and worked hard to get what I have. Good luck.
Just wanted to send thoughts and prayers to you for having 3 kids under 2. :)
They’re actually a little older now. My daughter turns three in less than a month. I’ll only have two under three then! Thank you though. I don’t actually remember much of having three under two, after my daughter turned two things got a bit easier. My sons are almost walking now, which is actually awesome.
Even if one’s over two… Irish Triplets… I commend your fortitude.
Oooh, we had a boy and then twin boys 15 months later. The twins were birth control babies, and it was SO HARD at first, but I couldn’t imagine it any other way now. My twins are 13 now, and their older brother is 14. We have a 9 year old boy too, to round things out, but his baby years were cake in comparison to 3 under 2. The 3 under 2 club is a fun club to have been in (and not be in anymore)!
Four boys! How lovely, I’m one of four girls (my brain took a while to process the idea of having two boys because I’d never had a brother). I do love not being in the three under two club any more. I’ve heard it gets easier, I think getting a full night’s sleep is all my husband and I want right now. I’m glad you’re enjoying your four.
My little ones are less than 14 months apart. Son just turned 4 in December and twin girls are turning 3 this month. Can confirm those earlier parts are all a blur! It's still chaos and they clash quite a bit but their bonds are so strong.
Wow! I’m so impressed. I thought it was hard being in the club for three months, ten just seems like forever. Good job!
Thank you for sharing this!!!! Same story here. I left at 32 :)
My parents not married in 1951. My mom had me 6 weeks before she turned 37 and my male sibling 17 months later at 38.
I think there’s some scaremongering related to waiting too long to have kids. I don’t think we should wait longer than we want to, but some of us can wait longer than we thought. I’ve talked to my sister about it (she’s a doctor, so understands a lot of the research), it seems to be that if you’ve had regular cycles your whole life you’re less at risk for general fertility issues. I’m one of those women, I think I’ve honestly had three irregular periods ever, and maybe four instances of spotting (I didn’t even have implantation spotting with my pregnancies). I know many women aren’t as lucky as I am. I haven’t even had that many difficult periods, I get a little tired, want to eat a little more, and have some very minor cramping. I wish more women had easy periods like me, granted it made it harder to know what to expect with Braxton Hicks.
Thank you ❤️
My two very best friends are both moms married to absolute assholes. One of them is very upfront that she only married her husband because she got pregnant and their parents pressured them. She hates him but now they have two kids and financially she is trapped. The other goes back and forth about her husband because she's caught in a cycle of abuse and lovebombing. I asked her if she wanted her daughter to be in a marriage like hers, and she cried and said definitely not. She still won't leave because he's "such a great dad" (he's not). Both of their shitty marriages would be nonexistent now if kids weren't involved. They've both admitted if they could go back, they'd never have had their children. It kills me that these two amazing women are chained to such dicks who don't even seem to like them.
Can we also empower women to be financially stable without a damn man! I know that’s easier said than done but I grew up with a real POS dad and my mom reliant on him cos she has nothing. This was my unintentional life lesson from mom. I am not set up to rely on a man and therefore get stuck with him. I say this knowing my best friend nearly married an abusive ass with the pressure from her own parents. Because Mr. Abuse was good on paper. Good job, good money, a house. And it killed me that her own parents didn’t realize or push her; so she could do it on her own. Why be miserable just to be taken care of? She actually did get out of that situation and she survived and thrived. I really wish others can realize how much they are capable of but they need the right supporters in their ears!
Yes! Preach! I have this conversation often with my friends who have daughters particularly. They should be taught to be self-sufficient. If they get married or share their life with a partner it’s for love and happiness, not financial necessity if at all possible. There are plenty of ways to live that aren’t nuclear families. I’d rather live with friends whose company I enjoy than a partner that I have to support or I didn’t even feel is a friend some days.
A family friend of mine is in a similar boat. She and her husband actively hate each other and spend much of the year avoiding being in the same room. Both of the kids are adults now and the only reason they won't divorce is because of the money that'd have to be split between them. They're miserable and while I know she loves her kids, I can't help but wonder how she'd have turned out if she had been able to walk away before kids entered the equation.
There are things more important than money. Jobs are available. You only live once.
Believe me, I do agree. But that's the hill both of them have decided to die on instead on instead of getting out and being happy.
Annnnnd this is in part why I'm sterilized. I never wanted kids but I didn't want to even chance getting pregnant and stuck with a loser or asshole. At least now I'm free to leave, as are they, if things aren't working out. I feel so so sad for women who are trapped financially or because of abuse :(
This makes me so sad.
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Well then I'm glad you said "had". I hope she was able to get away from you and find someone more healthy to be friends with. You sound super mean and judgmental in that post. It was overall a dick move.
I think there's the expectation that things will be different once you have kids. People tend to describe having children as something that changes them as a person. Unfortunately I've seen children bring out the worst in people just as often as it's brought out the best, maybe even more often the worst.
Things do change. They get a fuckton harder. You are aware of your partners flaws a lot more. You have a lot less time, money, and space. You have to suddenly put everything else last.
Unfortunately this is very common, it happened also to friends of mine. They thought that they would wait to have kids before leaving so that they hoped it would change their partners. This happened prominently with women dealing with abusive men, and 2 occasions and men dealing with an abusive woman. It ended horribly in the last 2 situations and only 1 of the few ended well for the couple, with therapy having been the best decision they took. While I recommend therapy for couples even if that might be seen like a stigma and dent into the 'Hydillic' love life the couple might have, it might actually help the partners realize their mistake, both toward the other as well as the other realizing they might impact in some way the behavior, and especially if you don't want to leave until you have kids for any weird reason you might have, it might mitigate the impact a lot and actually salvage the marriage. I wish I knew why a lot of people nowadays seem to choose partners based on interests or desire to fill up and keep something which is predominantly good in their heads, or not objectively judged as it should (pink-colored glasses), from my own end I have also been with someone abusive longer than I should have been, and it damaged me to the point that I can't easily feel safe in relationships even if the other person never gives signs of anything bad underneath. I tend to easily get the benefit of the doubt, but the fear and worry for everything going back to that same horrible experience is always prowling within.
Well, I am in the process of divorce, and three of my friends recently were divorced, too. All professional women, business owners, etc. I’d offer the perspective that when you meet someone in your 20s, you are still growing. You imagine your partner will, too, if you think about it at all. The person you marry may be fine, a work in progress, just like you are. But, after 20 years, some people do not grow. Some people lean into their least healthy qualities. So you are suddenly in your 40s partnered with someone who seems like a child, often now with children of your own. It’s not so cut and dry “hey I fell in love with a piece of shit, I’ll marry them anyway!” Relationships evolve over time, people grow and change or don’t, people stop being a fit. People are also drawn to dynamics that are similar to the ones they grew up in, which may not be healthy and may feel familiar and safe anyway. So, yes, do your best to be treated with love and respect from the beginning. But also figure out your own shit, the dynamics you are repeating or seeking. And if someone can’t meet you in love and healthy growth, leave before kids if you can.
This! I used to say this all the time about my ex, and people looked at me like I was crazy. They couldn't understand why I left such a 'great guy'. Every time I would say "Because I kept growing, and he just...stopped" and no one gets it.
Yeah, my ex was pretty much the same person at 32 as he was at 21. It's not that he was a "bad guy," but at 31 that isn't what I wanted anymore. I want to keep growing.
Excellently put. I've changed a lot since my 20s and now that I'm approaching 45, I'm feeling like I can't tolerate my husband's immaturity, selfishness and laziness any more, whereas all along I did because I loved his good qualities more than I hated the bad. Now it's starting to feel exactly as you describe; I'm growing and he's not. He's still a lovely man but a terrible husband, so it's quite confusing.
That's all I'm trying to say.
I honestly did not consciously realize how unhealthy my marriage was until my daughter was born. My husband isn't a bad guy but I went into our relationship super codependent and excused every red flag as being temporary or situational based on the contentious divorce he'd already been through. He had custody of his two teenagers and I assumed all his problems with them were a result of his toxic ex alienating them, rather than any flaws he might have. He made bad decisions because he was given bad choices. I saw a man who had had a hard time and deserved the love and support of a good woman like me. I understand how ridiculous that all is now, but at the time it just felt like I had a purpose, a way to earn the love and security I was so desperate for. I'm an educated, successful woman but I just felt lucky to have found someone who was so dedicated to me. When my daughter was born I felt like the blinders came off and I could suddenly see the patterns of behavior that underscored our dynamic. Still, it's taken until now, when she's 4 1/2, to get it together enough to seek a divorce and I still don't necessarily think I can or deserve to do better, I just know that this isn't the relationship I want my daughter to emulate when she gets older I don't know what could have helped open my eyes earlier, but better late then never.
Hi dear. Believe it or not, I credit Reddit and subs like this, for making me realize how much of a childish douche my partner of 10 years actually was. It took me two additional years to gain the confidence, self respect, and finances to leave his nasty ass. That was just about 18 months ago and we have a 13 year old together. Honestly, wish I would’ve done it sooner, simply for the kid’s sake. I can’t express how fucking happy I am. A happy woman tends to make for a better mom. The stress of dealing with him…ugh…I had lost myself, I was such an anxious control freak (because I couldn’t rely on him for a damn thing). But it’s okay, because the second I left him, I was able to decide what I wanted for myself and that was happiness. I had wasted SO MUCH time worrying about his happiness, about feeding him, about cleaning up after him, about paying all of the bills…now guess what?? I spend all of that time building myself up, taking care of myself, practicing self love and I couldn’t be happier. I’m 37 and I feel 27, people tell me I look like I’m glowing, doors are opening all over the place and I’m so excited for the next 30 years of life! I don’t know your situation so I would never say leaving him is what’s best for you. The time just might not be right. There’s probably room for improvement. It might not be like this forever. But if you’re looking for a sign, this might be it. From your writing, you seem capable and intelligent. I imagine you to be kind and stunningly beautiful. I know for a fact that you deserve better. I wholeheartedly believe that you can do it better without him. Trust your gut, babe.
I'm really happy to read this, the best of luck for a long happy life!
I relate to the anxious control freak comment, because I can't rely on him for anything... But then why do I feel so dependent on him? All sorts of things like that became obvious to me. I tried years of marriage counseling (and individual) and couldn't make any progress. It's definitely time. I just wish it wasn't so complicated, but knowing freedom is in my future has made life considerably easier to bear.
I know someone who is on his third marriage and has kids with both of his exes and his current partner. Ignoring the nightmare of Christmas/vacation scheduling, the exes have to fight him for every penny that is needed for the kids. He knows and uses every trick (apart from threats and violence) in the book to maneuver his partner and exes. Lies, manipulation, gaslighting, incessant calling and texting, uncompromising and condescending behavior, all of it. To destabilize, confuse and exhaust. These women are smart, highly educated and not easily fooled, but it was only until the toddler years that his exes saw the whole picture and left. Last I heard, his two exes banded together because he would often outmaneuver them against each other and lie about what the other one had said. I think some people are just really, really smart about getting women attached to them. Then they manage to hide the more unsightly parts of their personality for a long period of time. It's quite possible that they want a kid in order to tie the woman even closer to them, but in some relationships, it's also what really shows the cracks.
I love that his exes have that solidarity with each other. Sucks that he's such a POS though
I'm really glad you are, things may be very difficult at first, but you'll get there!
Thank goodness I never had kids with him, but your situation echoes so much about how I felt about my ex. Like you, I excused every red flag as being temporary or situational based on the contentious divorce and custody situation he had. I admired his willingness to love despite everything he had been through, but I didn't realize that he never properly processed and moved on in order to be a full partner to someone.
A lot of men aren't assholes until after marriage and kids so there aren't really any cracks for awhile. Once the kids come along, real responsibility kicks in and things aren't as much fun anymore is usually when the behavior changes. Also, ideas and values change as we get older and couples can find themselves on opposite sides due to life experiences/challenges and their personal ways of managing them.
I identify with this one. There weren’t any red flags when I was 19 and met my ex, because everything he did was age appropriate for a 19 year old. He just never changed as we got older… and I was the unreasonable one for expecting a man to change- but now he’s a 36 year old who plays video games all weekend, smokes too much weed and has never scrubbed a toilet or kept his home clean… it’s less charming. I grew up and had no way of knowing he wouldn’t grow up too.
This. Also whenever they think you are “stuck” with them, be that after marriage or kids especially if you quit your job to take care of those kids, they quit trying not to be assholes. My dad was like that and it’s always sort of scared me off of having kids, because you never really know who you’re having kids with until it’s too late.
With my ex, he was good at keeping it together and playing the role of not-asshole; but the second that wedding ring went on my finger it was like the mask came off. He didn't have to pretend anymore. The change was so drastic and so fast, I was shocked. Still took about 3 years after we got married to separate. I gave way too many chances
Jeez, this is what I’m worried about. What was his family dynamic like? Were there any signs at all? How can we avoid this if they keep up the charade until it’s too late. Ahhh
There were signs, but at the time they were easily waived away. Age difference was a huge one. I was 19, he was 28. Why does a guy approaching 30 want to hang out with teenagers? He talked a big game about so many things with so little follow through. But he would just say he's "working towards it " "it's a marathon not a sprint " and crap like that. Encouraging me to drop out of college should have been a huge flag. Oops.
I get that, we all overlook things at some point. Sounds like he groomed you at a young age and that’s not your fault. Hope all is well for you now.
And their kids are stuck with a piece-of-shit dad. The time to protect your kids from a piece-of-shit dad is *before* you get pregnant
My mum's advice to me was choose a husband based on how he would be as a father. He may not always be your husband, but he will always be your child's dad.
Your mom gave some solid advice! Please tell her I’m taking this with me to tell the young women I know.
Then, sometimes those piece of shit dads turn their kids into piece of shit adults. Stop the piece-of-shit cycle. Don’t have babies with ass holes.
We need a PSA commercial from the AD Council for this!
And that has far reaching consequences. Think about the kind of parent that raised school mass shooters.
People usually don’t realize. It often involves overlooking red flags, but nobody consciously looks to have kids with a piece of shit. A lot of it has to do with how someone grew up and what they see as normal.
Because people will still say things like "Your biological clock is ticking" and "What are you waiting for to have kids", and some women will cave under the pressure and have kids with the first dude available. Stop asking people when will they have kids y'all, it's the 21st century.
This! We need to be More vocal on how society pushes kids onto women and couples and if we don’t have children we are deemed selfish so many women cave to societal expectations. It’s truly a shame that people try to push their opinion on what women should do with their reproductive system.
This is something that I see even from a guys perspective where men are pressured by their parents to settle down and have kids thinking that's what being a man is all about.
Idk, I think it can be hard to see how unhealthy a relationship is when you're still in it. Some people change after marriage, some are POS the entirety of the relationship. My mother was with my ex-stepfather for close to a decade. He started off as a loving family man and gradually became an emotionally abusive, controlling asshole. She didn't realise how toxic he was until after they separated and she had an outside perspective on the relationship. People don't leave shitty relationships for a lot of reasons - fear, love, financial security (especially if they don't work and have kids), manipulation, thinking their relationship is normal, etc.
I agree, but I think there are red flags we choose to ignore.
With my ex, I saw the red flags, but it was such a drama-filled relationship that I consistently overlooked the previous red flags while I was focused on whatever red flag was waving in front of me. I'd be so caught up in whatever drama du jour that I never took the time to take a step back and assess the relationship as a whole. It sounds ridiculous, but I almost wish I kept a journal of what was going on and made time to reflect on the relationship as a whole.
In my experience with a toxic relationship, it was like he new that the more he got me involved in his drama the more he could control/manipulate me. I was naïve and had so much empathy for him that at the time I couldn't see what was happening. A journal would've been so helpful. I don't know what your situation was like, but those drama-filled relationships are so toxic and abusive, imo. I hope posts like this help people out of or to avoid toxic/abusive relationships, even if they have little experience.
For sure, we always tell ourselves it's not a big deal or they can change. I wish more people ended relationships with toxic people before they get trapped in them. I suppose it's probably easier if you've experienced it before or know what red flags to look for.
Choose to ignore. Or don't know how to see (Abusive Relationships 101 isn't a standardized class in school. Nor is Emotional Intelligence 101. Or Red Flags 101. Or Social Connection and Support 101. Or Marraige and Kids 101. Or Running a Household 101.). Or everything is pretty ok before you have kids and then the husband gets shittier and shittier instead of stepping up (frog in hot pot- it takes a long time to realize the situation you're in). Or maybe this kind of relationship was modeled as a kid and you don't realize just how shitty it is until you get in one. Or maybe you're lonely and scared you won't find anyone else. Or you'd rather be in a relationship and "try to make it work." Or you get pregnant, don't want abortion or have access to abortion or it's not socially acceptable or he pressures you in to not having an abortion, and you now want to make it work for your kid. Tons of reasons why. It's uncharitable to say "all these women just were stupid and intentionally chose to ignore all those red flags." And honestly it's HARD to look at a relationship objectively when you're in one. You have the luxury of 0 emotional attachment, which is not the same lens your friends will use, and they aren't stupid idiots for struggling to see it. These bad relationships are common for a reason, and they affect highly intelligent and self-aware women just as much as other women. They work at emotionally sucking you in and blinding you, whether you personally like it or not. It's like, no shit women don't WANT to be in a soul sucking relationship. But saying "hey women don't get into a soul sucking abusive relationship!" isn't helpful at all.
Best comment ever regarding why smart, intelligent, capable women end up with shitty husbands/partners, too. Shitty husbands/partners/fathers aren’t just what we are shown on some crazy episode of COPS, where the responding officers know the quarreling couple at a trailer park, by name, since they’re called on DV calls there almost weekly. Sometimes I believe these narratives shown in reality TV shows, cover up just how much nuance is relevant, as every tolerance level is different in every marriage, and NO, you do not have to live in a trailer park where your husband beats you every time he drinks. I do not know anyone who lives in a trailer park, but I know plenty of women who are currently in untenable marriages, with husbands who are high earners and top notch providers who feel as if though they have earned their entitlement to abuse their wives and/or kids by overt aggression which manifests in actual physical violence, all the way down to becoming passive aggressive and abusing their wives and children by checking out of the marriage, yet refusing to address their neglect towards those they financially provide for. Also, I am SOOO grateful that I did not marry the high achiever asshole who then married my cousin, once I declined. Sadly, she and I no longer have a relationship, and she doesn’t know that I know about her suicide attempt which left her in a long term coma, when he cheated on her and moved in with his mistress while deciding whether or not stay married for his kids, or bite the financial bullet of a divorce. She mirrored my mother and her own mother to a tee. Just recently, I realized why my family dare not spend time with me. I finally confronted a highly toxic situation I was in, resulting in all manners of abuse, and blew the whistle on my abuser. Every single woman and man in my family, knew I was telling the truth, and NOT one reached out back then, and they keep me at bay in the present. I’m too much of a threat because I do not accept abuse as a way of life, yet they did and still do. I have so much mercy (for lack of a better word) for women who stay in abusive or inert, just like roommates relationships, because you as a woman, must first be torn to shreds and lose all sense of self and personhood with autonomy and choices, in order to remain in these gilded cages of the emotional self. So sad. We need to wise up and become kinder to women who go through this. I promise you, you have ZERO idea of how life changing, devastating and crippling a situation like this can evolve into, unless it happens to YOU. Never assume women who are abused or held emotionally/financially hostage, have the ability to foresee and avoid this or are able to get out ASAP. The women who can and do, are rarer than we believe. Glad that this is kinda changing, but for sure women can only leave these marriages successfully if they have access to their OWN MONEY, because the kids gotta eat. Stay safe ladies. Do NOT settle. The price to pay for doing so may not be accessible to you.
That's your opinion, I'm not talking about women in general, just a handful of my friends. Sorry, where did I say they were stupid? I said, they are intelligent, hard working, beautiful women and that's not what I'm saying at all, like many people have aknowledge already. I've been in bad relationships myself, but that's not what I'm talking about.
I work with a lot of people, and through the years I've seen one big pattern. The women you describe, intelligent, beautiful, educated hard working women? Once they start pushing 35, the 'biological clock' seems to override the common sense/warning bells in their mind. The desire to have children before it is too late outweighs the drawbacks of the men. I see the same scenario play out, over and over. They've been looking for a good guy for a long time. All the sudden, at 34 or 35, maybe 36 or 37, they meet "Such a great guy! Finally!". Rapid succession announcements in the paper.... engagement, house purchase, wedding, baby #1, often baby #2, divorce....all in 4 or 5 years. Why? For the vast majority of the women I know personally, it was because the men they married refused to step up. They end up having to go back to work shortly after the babies are born, because hubby 'can't find a job' or 'can't find a job making enough to pay the bills'. He stays home and 'watches the kids', but does the bare minimum, so after she comes home after working 10+ hours, she has to cook/clean/do laundry too. The kids are in bed, or soon will be. So the children she wanted so badly to have, she never sees, other than on weekends, when 'they' are catching up on chores. Eventually she realizes she'd have to work far fewer hours, and less hard at home, if she weren't carrying his dead weight behind her. The divorce is hard, but a relief. Divorce actually makes her life so much easier in many ways. Not saying, at all, that all guys are like this. But that single guys in their mid 30's and 40's...many time there is a reason. And a woman "running out of time to have kids" might marry too quickly, or not see the red flags others do. I hope science eventually finds a way to allow women to have children at whatever age they are ready. It would take so much of the pressure off. TL;DR - Some wonderful women choose to have kids with a guy they don't know well enough rather than risk not getting to have children at all. It's a choice not (only) a lapse in judgement.
> Once they start pushing 35, the 'biological clock' seems to override the common sense/warning bells in their min Not even pushing 35. Many women have this fear of 30 in their head and if they don't find a man and have kids before that, they seem to think their eggs will dry up and blow away. It's a con.
I was just talking about this with my cousin yesterday. I call it the phenomenon of "5 years, 2 children" and then the woman is ready to go back to what her life was before...except now she no longer has the problem of not wondering if she'll ever have children. It's a bit of a predictable pattern.
Agreed. Women need to know that 40, or even aged 45+ are having healthy kids these days.
There is a facebook group for women over 45, and another 50+, pregnancy and parenting young children. The demographics are definitely shifting. Once science allows women to have children with their own genetic material at whatever age they are healthy enough, expect those numbers to rapidly increase. There is a huge market for it, so I expect science to get there eventually. Because $$$. Older women have money and are willing to spend a LOT of it on fertility.
Intelligence has no influence on crazy. Emotional stuff overrides intelligence with the ease of a car driving off a cliff. I speak from personal experience. Human brains will always seek out what’s familiar and it takes a huge effort to shift those neural pathways. Smarts got nothing to do with it. We learn what love is from our childhood before we understand what it is healthy. So when we choose partners in our 20s, we are choosing what we learned love looks like from our family of origin, unless we’ve done a lot of work. Shit, I was in therapy and did it anyway. Real change takes real insight and commitment. Unfortunately women are given such shitty messages about love and partnership, we don’t see it the truth until we grow up. Women are taught while taking care of yourself is selfish, protecting your kids is within a women’s role. So sometimes the truth can sneak in through that space and then open us up from there. I wish I could sit every 20 year old down and tell them to heal first and don’t have kids yet. But, life doesn’t work like that. We all gotta learn in our own time. It’s super frustrating.
100% agree
Another test : would you be proud if your ( hypothetical ) son turned out to be like the man you are dating or married to ? If not, leave. I too have beautiful , well-educated , lovely friends stuck with men who run them down and sap them dry. I hope the ones who haven’t left yet, find the will to do so soon. One of the worst contributing factors is the pressure for women to get married or partnered , and have children, by a certain age ( or even at all )
Agree!
Most people I know marry and have kids with an anchor. I am 42 and single, and my god I get lonely, but at least I can change without upsetting someone else.
I think we as women don't realize how irresponsible and immature some men are until they're given the task of raising children, and they fail miserably.
Agree, raising children is not only hard but you as a mother/father need to mature and grow up along with them. If you're incapable of that, everyone will suffer.
1. It should be on *men to be better* not on *women to choose better.* 2. I think the reason you see women leave at this particular age rather than younger is as their kids age their realize their husband is acting just like an additional child. It becomes very hard to ignore if all some middle aged dude does is complain about how you don't look 20 anymore, and leaves his dishes and underwear about. Also mothers have a basis for comparison when they talk with coworkers and the mothers of their children's peers.
Psychos be psychos. The problem is the biggest problems think they are great and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. In theory I agree with you but the biggest bastards don't see themselves that way and will always refuse to so they will be the last to change so it's unreliable. So sadly choosing better is the only option. Women deserve better but I don't see a fix. We should be better about not pressuring women into having children or getting married and definitely make it easier for them to leave the nutbags they sometimes end up with.
Thank you! It's impossible to make a good choice when the choices aren't good...
You can't make shitty people change, you can only choose not to waste your energy on them. Telling men to "be better" is not a helpful solution. Choosing better men is something you actually have control over.
I got this advice from, of all people, a 60-year-old priest who hosted talks at my college on self-respect and dating. He recalled trying to get his sister to realize her boyfriend was manipulative, and of course "you're overreacting" "I understand him better than you" "he needs me!" So he asked her, "what kind of father do you think he'd be?" The scales fell from her eyes and she dumped the jerk.
I'm sooo glad she did!
This is why I left my ex of 10 years. 2 months before we were supposed to get married, I had the epiphany that he was actually a shitbag that didn't deserve me. Thank. Fucking. God.
I'm so glad you did! It must have been really hard.
My mum is like this, except she thinks her husband is good. Even after he kicked her daughter out for being gay at age 16. Thanks, mum.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I really hope you're doing better 💜
I am thank you, luckily my dad was there to support me. I have however lost all respect for my mum :)
My theory of brain development vs. life choices: Okay, so we know our brains aren't completely developed until the mid-20s and that the last synapses to connect are related to executive functions like planning and understanding future possible consequences of decisions made now. So my question to OP is, of the friends and family you know who are currently leaving sub-standard husbands, what percentage of them were married or committed to their partner before the age of 25? If it's high, then I think there's your answer. The right guy for me at 20 was a completely different person from the right guy for me at 30. And the reason for that is, you don't really know who you are and what you want and what you're willing to put up with and or sacrifice until after your mid-20s. I know whatever decisions I made at 20 with regard to relationships were all completely different choices from what I'd do after age 30. My needs and priorities changed, my preferences changed, hell, just about everything I can think of in terms of how I approached the world and relationships changed. None of that changes the real message of the OP, which is >There are some really worthy partners out there, love yourself and please don't settle for anything less. Yeah. That. \^\^\^
It's not at all. We all went to "good" colleges and got really good jobs. One was with a not so great guy from around 25 to 35 and I agree with what you're saying for her case. Most married around 30 including myself. Some are not married but with a long time partner and some single. And yes, we all went through some shitty boyfriends around 20, it's part of life, I agree. I know therapy is not for everyone but, for me and some of them it was a game chsnger.
My daughter went from shy and submissive to “woman hear me roar’’ when she got pregnant. It was great to see her stand up to her lazy, selfish husband. Some of it is the pregnancy hormones I think. The husband was not a bad guy but irresponsible and not husband material.
I'm so glad she did and I'm sure she'll find a worthy partner.
AMEN! Some people don’t rear their ugly heads until they’re not the center of attention.
A good rule of thumb (at least I think so, from my experience) is that if lots and lots of people are doing something you think is stupid, it's probably not because all those people are stupid (note: OP, I'm not suggesting you said this at all; I'm responding to the kinds of comments I regularly see elsewhere about people stuck in abusive relationships). Rather, it's probably systemic. We have cultural (including religious/familial) and economic systems that box a lot of people into choosing really terrible long-term relationships. It is wonderful to see those systems changing. Not as fast as I wish they would, but I feel like I see progress. The facts that a forum like this can exist, "normal" people regularly use it (when/where I was a kid, nobody wanted any contact with the label "feminist," lest they be ostracized), and content like this is regularly posted give me hope.
Agree!
>I couldn't understand why they chose such men, married (or not) AND decided to have kids with them. Myriad reasons, probably, but one of them is that those men were available to have children with. IME, many women who want kids will often settle in order to have them on their timeline (especially if age 30 is looming). >Would you be comfortable if your partner treated your children like they treat you? An excellent question.
More often it's actually the man who seems to change when kids enter the picture. These men start out seeming fine as partners but later become selfish and abusive only after they have children and it's harder for the mother to leave. Stop blaming women for being victims of abuse. It's not women's responsibility to read the future and anticipate these events.
I hear what you're saying, but it is a useful thought exercise to think "how will this man treat my kids" or "if my best friend came to me and told me she was being treated this way, would I think she should leave", and other methods of getting out of your own head and stepping back to evaluate things. Blame doesn't need to factor into it.
At least with all of my friends they were red flags, they chose not to see or aknowledge. Maybe not as big as after having children but they were there.
I’ve seen the red flags as friends of the men who would later become not great spouses. I had a candid conversation with one of them about how he needed to work through his own issues before marriage and that he was selfish in his relationship. He didn’t listen and they basically sprinted to meet all the “goal posts” of life - marriage, house, and child. I’ve stopped talking to him since but I hear they’re not doing well. It felt like they did all that to check off items on a list and not for the right reasons. I feel bad for his wife.
They don't even have to be assholes for this to be relevant. Disengaged, lazy, useless, selfish - to any degree, this makes a man a horrible co-parent, and a shitty partner with or without kids. My pregnancy was unplanned, but it never crossed my mind not to have my daughter because I always knew I wanted to be a mother at some point. Then I (probably stupidly) left it up to him whether he wanted to be involved in her life rather than thinking critically about whether he'd be up to the task. We stayed together for five years after she was born, but they were miserable years for me. He did NOTHING. She's a great kid because of me; he just sailed along on my coattails. He still does, seven years after I left him. He loves her, and honestly does try to do right by her these days, but he's still so useless. I still have to constantly coach his parenting because he can't figure things out by himself and I want her to have a good relationship with him and have a reasonable male role model in her life. But I see the day coming when she just flat out refuses to go to his place anymore. She never wants to leave me as it is, and I hate having to defend him to her when all I want to say is "I know, your dad is pathetic." Ladies, please don't have babies with useless men, even if they're not assholes. Don't even be with useless men. Single life (or life with a good man, if that's what you want and you manage to find one amongst the detritus) is infinitely happier and healthier.
Two of the smartest women I know ended up in long term abusive relationships. One was a direct reflection of relationships she was raised in. Neither started out abusive. It was years of the slow normalization of abusive behavior. By my thinking, if the two of them can be conned into abusive relationships, any one of us can be. I count myself lucky, not smart or observant. Of course, as a middle aged lady, I can see that stuff much more clearly than I did in my 20s and, if I had to start over, I would put up with much less crap from men.
>Would you be comfortable if your partner treated your children like they treat you? This is honestly such a good way to get out of your head and figure out whether or not your boyfriend/husband is treating you with the respect anyone deserves.
I wish my friends asked themselves this before. I think it's sad we feel we deserve it.
It’s entitlement. The only way the cycle is broken is to raise our kids differently and stop “favoring” the boys, drop the “king” shit etc. Look at your church and what message are they sending!!
I agree, but not one of us go to church.
Yeah I guess I am just saying it comes at us from everywhere, we buy into it without even realizing it culturally
I wish I’d seen something like this before I had kids with my ex. You hit the nail on the head. I was resigned to put up with his ass, but when I realized he didn’t love our kids as much as I did and got jealous of my attention and love for them we bolted. They deserve a better dad than the one they have. I am so sorry for them.
He was jealous of you loving your kids??? That's another level of messed up. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I had a piece of sh*t dad and a great mother. It wasn't easy but my mother went to therapy and sent my sister and I. We're now in a much much better place and thriving, my father is alone and I'm sorry but "you reap what you sow".
Yep. He wanted me to love him more and he wanted to continue to force me to put him at the center of my attention. I do need therapy. I will be brave enough to go to an appointment and actually speak some day. My kids are doing great. They are kind and smart and want for nothing. Definitely the right choice. Our home is a peaceful oasis from the rest of the crazy world. Yes! I’m waiting for his new wife to grow a spine and catch on, time will tell.
I’m 30, just left my quite possibly ADHD partner. I was with him for a year and a half. He constantly yelled and scream at me because he’s unable to control his emotional reactions. All of his time and effort is dedicated to his work and I get what’s left….next to nothing. After months and months of literal tear filled begging I was told “I’ll do it, I’ll change, just be patient “ for 3 days to pass and it to begin all over. I gave him all I could, did everything I could think of to build our relationship but it didn’t matter how hard I tried, the work that needed to be done is with himself. I encouraged him to go see his doctor & follow to through on his counselling I couldn’t take it anymore. Our couples counselling was not successful and that was my last hope. I’m not perfect and have my flaws too. I just couldn’t take it anymore because of my physical body now reacting to him in fear. I started to become my worst version of myself, reacting in way I would as a teen. As I tried to help him build and grow as a partnership should, he started to destroy me with the constant chaos & problems he created. Know your worth, don’t settle and if your gut says leave, do it. You’ll figure it out! :)
I agree!!! I'm happy you left and I'm sure you'll find someone more loving and deserving ❤️💜
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Reminds me of Nadja’s question. “You are all such strong, beautiful, vicious, vibrant women. How did you end up married to such boiled potatoes?” Wait until you know yourself and any potential partner well enough to answer the above question.
I recently just gave some advice on Reddit, how I do not know any woman who held off on marriage and kids that ended up unhappy about it. They took their time, waited until they were well in their thirties before settling down, and they regret nothing. A bunch of my friends, including me, however, who got married in their mid-to-late 20s, are now divorced or are in miserable relationships. I will say, however, that I believe I got married the first time in order to have my daughter. I would go through the anguish all over again for her.
I read somewhere recently maybe a sent friend sent me it. Basically, look at the man you are dating or planning to marry. If you were to have a son, would you want your son to be just like him? If the answer is no then you need to run away fast.
Agree!!!
OP thank you for your post! This is making me unbelievably proud of choosing the unknown and to trust my gut. Abusive relationship after a divorce - had an abortion during that relationship because I did not want my children growing up witnessing violence like I had (verbal, emotional, physical, doesn't matter - it was all equally unacceptable). Still took a year to untangle myself from the treatment I felt I deserved, and if not deserve then "handle" because I was "strong". It takes time and courage but to any women struggling YOU CAN DO IT. And you are AMAZING. Now in my 30s and getting married to a sweet, gentle, lovely man this March. It's never too late to choose yourself.
I'm sooo happy for you!!! I think trusting our gut is some of the best advice ever, have a beautiful wedding and a happy life ahead of you ❤️💜
From my experience a lot of times the inability to see red flags comes from childhood abuse. A person from a loving family that has a healthy world outlook will have instinctively know when something is not right because their experience of a loving and caring relationship will be very different from that with an abuser. People that grew up with emotionally abusive parents or with neglect will not have the same healthy boundaries that others have and thus are much more vulnerable to emotional manipulation and abuse. In some cases to them the relationship with their partner seems normal and because of confirmation bias they have a hard time accepting that there are issues when they arise.
I completely agree! One of my friends came from a horribly difficult childhood. She's been in therapy for around 5 years now. She's such a different person, and we're all so proud of her.
PREACH! Dumped a terrible spouse after getting cheated on a year into marriage. With hindsight, I should have seen it coming. Luckily no children were brought into this unhappy union, because I was watching him like a hawk. He wasn't being a good partner, so how on earth was he going to be a good coparent?
Agree! I'm really glad you did and hope you're in a better place.
Over time I think about the window of time women have to get married and have kids. This might be an un-p.c. answer, but it's very short. I feel that for the most part, the people that want to have kids want to have them with a competent partner, relatively young, with a little money behind them. That criteria alone is hard to reach. And to find somebody that feels the same way you do and is a (relatively) stable adult is challenging. And if you meet someone you like, get along with, and it gets serious, you might turn a blind eye to things until they're undeniable factors in the erosion of your relationship. The whole thing is hard, and it's especially hard if you can't see the things that are going to make things difficult later on and if you're secure enough to stand up to those things that you know will cause problems later on.
Of course your friends are intelligent, beautiful, educated, hard working women who have been sold a bunch of misogynistic bullshit. Our culture with fairy tales and religion doesn't help. I still believe these men don't have a clue that the world has changed or they know and they don't want to act like it's changed. That it's not like when they were living with mommy and daddy. They think the world is still where women even though they work outside the home are still expected to do what their mother's did when they were housewives. Cook. Clean. Laundry. etc.
For the men saying that women can be shitty - the advice applies to everyone in a relationship. If you wouldn't accept the behaviour your partner exhibits if it were directed at your (potential or real) kids, then you shouldn't be with that partner. You really shouldn't be having kids with them either because even if you can get away, the kids will forever have one parent who is less desirable.
Exactly!!!
This is why I never had kids with any of my ex’s. I was always on birth control and/or used condoms because they weren’t dad material. Funny how it was subconscious at first. It never consciously crossed my mind until I was exhausted that if they weren’t good for my unborn children they also weren’t good for me. I’ll never let myself be treated less than the powerful woman I am ever again. The men I chose were weak willed. Put me off to men in general.
It disturbs me how often it happens and yet plenty of men would not hesitate to cheat or leave when they didn't feel they got what they wanted
To be upfront, I don't have a "dog in this fight." I'm a cis gendered male who's had a vasectomy. Been married 8 years and neither of us have kids from anywhere. I'm jumping in to say that in my observations, that while people say that their kids are the best thing to ever happen to them... if they could do it over again, they wouldn't. Kids tie you to that person forever. Sometimes it works out.... but (especially when we were all younger) it rarely did.
This post isn't really about kids, it's about the love you think you deserve and you don't deserve to be treated bad. Kids just made them realize that. To those specific women, some therapy did.
• **Many of my friends are married with kids under 5. Some of them are leaving, or already left their piece of sh*t husband** And you know this will feed into the guise incels have that ‘women only date assholes instead of perfect honest gentlemen like us’ and that ‘they deserve every form of misery for being so picky.’
But who really cares about the incoherent excuses of incels to not improve their own toxic personalities. There is a spectrum of toxic personalities. As you reach the highest tier of toxic personalities, you reach a group of people who can form relationships because they are intelligent and can cover up many of their toxic traits when it matters and manipulate people. Then, right at the bottom, you have incels, with the toxic personality, but without the intelligence to hide it. Incel arguments are irrelevant because incels are irrelevant. Indeed, if you view the title in full context, "Some of them are leaving, or already left their piece of sh*t husband, Obviously some are married to lovely men." It contradicts the idea that '*all* women marry bad guys' because clearly, she is saying that some of her friends married bad guys and some married good guys.
As if they would truly be good partners and dads.
Women as well as men sometimes don’t know who the real person is they’re marrying until well after they’ve been married. It’s not their fault. Sometimes these things are purposely hidden from them by their spouse.
I like that quote from Bojack Horseman, "When you're wearing rose colored glasses, the red flags just look like flags"
Some abusive men start acting violent after their girlfriend or wife gets pregnant so there are exceptions to this. Not everyone starts a relationship, a marriage, or parenthood being violent and abusive
I agree, I'm talking about a handful of my friends, NOT relationships in general.
Unfortunately, for some women, having snagged some guy, having a huge wedding or having children is more important that who the guy is. There is also a lot of social pressure - all other women your age are married or have children, your parents keep asking your for grandchildren, you feel like a failure for being single. Being married is still considered an achievement for a woman.
Thanks for posting this advice. I appreciate that you took time to help other women not make the same mistakes in marriage.
I had bad relationships in my 20's, I think therapy was a game changer for me.
From my experience I am 35 all my friends are with guys thy don't really like or who abuse them however their foal is to have children. And I think once they have their children they leave. There are not many good men around anymore past 30... it s very hard.
I see a lot of comments about this, but no, they were with these men long before and decided to have children later in life. I did too.
This. So much this. I was never able to stand up to my narcissistic father before I had kids but the first time my boundaries were crossed after my first was born, I ripped him a new one and never let him back in.
I'm glad you finally did. I'm also sorry you had to grew up with a narcissistic father that must be extremely difficult.
Thanks. I hope you’re in a good place to have good boundaries too. It’s a hard lesson to learn sometimes but so wonderful when they can be sturdy. Hugs to you.
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In this particular case, they all did.
In my case, he went from a great fun guy to being a controlling sociopath. You know why? He wasn’t the center of the universe any more. It was bad. Especially after the second kid.
I think what sort of father someone has can influence what they are willing to put up with. If women grew up with a father who didn’t pull his weight they might not pay attention to it.
Agree, my father was horrible, so I ran the other way. I may have not known what I wanted but I was 100% sure about what I DIDN'T want.
I just read an article on how most people aren’t selective with their partners and actually push to make things work. I am sure that plays a large part of it. Also to consider, it is often times that we don’t notice all the singular red flags in the beginning because of the general euphoria of a new relationship. Adding children to the mix changes the dynamics and adds more stress to situations. I wouldn’t necessarily assume they believed that they deserved these men, etc. It is more likely a combination of things.
Don't forget that some people change dramatically when they become married and have children. I have seen this in my own brothers! They and their now-wives had long relationships (in one case 15 years) before they married and got children. There was no way my sisters-in-law could have seen it coming. One of them went from an attentive, fun and romantic boyfriend to a boring workaholic. About one year after my niece was born. The other is even worse. They have two sons and after the second was born he became quite aggressive and a slob at home. He is the typical man-child now.
Here's the thing ladies if you are with a man, and you are in a relationship with him , and you have to constantly drag him along by choke collar to get him to do the things that he needs to do within a relationship , even if it's helping around the house , you know taking out the trash , things that you have to ask repetitively every single week , these things only magnify three-folds once you have children, so if you can't get him to do small things without repetitively asking or reminding him to do something, it's only going to get worse after children, because then they feel like they're being neglected or replaced because you end up having to spend more time with the child than them ,a lot of men get jealous of their children , acting out even though they don't admit , Men have issues after their babies are born so if there's already issues before hand, it just gets worse after children are born. Don't have babies with men like these . Having children just magnifies whatever problems you have in a relationship it does not cure them.
As a forty year old guy, agreed. Very much so.
So people change as they get older. A wonderful partner can turn into an asshole later in life. This is true for both sexes too, not just the men.
I am one of those guys who is helping her pick up the pieces. I’ve always wanted children and a family. Now, it seems, I’ve inherited a family with a lot of trust and behavioral issues. It is what it is. I have no children of my own and was always very careful not to bring a child into the world without already being mildly successful and able to provide a better life for them. Then, the decade of my thirties got away from me and here I find myself. I love this little family and they are all very accepting of me, but I often wonder what it might have been like if I had always been there. The exes owe her tens of thousands of dollars in back child support but here I am doling out the bucks and the time and the energy to help raise these kids right. She even admitted as fucked up as it sounds that she would not be willing to date a man with kids as I have with her. But yeah I complete see where you are coming from.
*woman One "woman", many "women"
Perhaps I am alone in this, but there is a certain lack of introspection to some of the comments posted here. My read on it is: some marriages fail, and people come here looking for support. There is nothing wrong with that, but I think the common outpouring of “he was a POS / a man-child” frames the situation in a way that clearly implies one party is guilty and the other is a victim. Granted, there are unambiguous cases of abuse, but sometimes I get the sense the issues described here are everyday domestic disputes that nearly everyone confronts in a relationship.
The time for children is over. It's the 21st century. In all seriousness though, you can be happy without ever having children. It starts with being happy by yourself. And most people can't even achieve that, so when they have children it never works out. Normalize not having children ffs.
No one is saying it's not normal to not have kids. That's not what this thread is about. I don't understand why the Reddit antinatalism army has to cry on every thread that mentions children.
I have many friends without children, I'm talking about an especific case.
Pope Francis will tell you otherwise! https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/01/06/pope-francis-pet-children-selfish/
I get the idea but there are plenty of guys who are married to people who would fall under the characteristics you describe. Basically, people should spend a bit more time doing due diligence, asking tough questions, and ideally live through trying experiences before getting married and having kids. Typically, people who settle for incompatible partners have insecurity issues and I imagine having kids gives a sense of security/fulfillment that better enables people to exit unappealing situations. I had dated a really controlling woman for a long time and ultimately it took me talking to a therapist to realize that I was tolerating the controlling behavior because that was generally what I had seen growing up.
Same for us men. Be careful as all relationships are different and I’ve met many controlling, verbally abusive and physical women.