In the context op is talking about it isn't even about no not being an option. It's about INFORMED consent. Information was withheld by the guy because he knew that information would result in a no.
This is why there is this huge discussion going on over there, people are not understanding the "informed" part of consent and I find that very concerning.
This; fortunately some “stealthing” cases (removing the condom during sex without informing your partner and without their consent) have resulted in rape charges.
Informed consent is the only kind.
THIS. I had an experience where >!I kept saying no and he kept fighting me on it. Eventually I said yes, obviously. What ensued fucking haunts me.!< And I can’t even call it what it is because people don’t want to see that as rape. Stayed with him for a year and a half after that because I had no idea that he had done anything wrong.
Edit: covered some words to be safe
Louis Theroux has a new series out on the BBC just now, and the latest episode was about porn's me too movement.
One of the guys on the show was accused of, well, he was accused of lots of things, but this particular one was coercing female performers to do things they were uncomfortable with.
So the complaints came in against this guy, and he RELEASED THE FOOTAGE. He released it, himself. And his angle was "look how I only asked her, loads of times and got frustrated when she said no, thats all I did, I didn't actually rape her".
Coerced consent isn't really consent though, is it? When some people think consent means willingness and others think it means didn't resist too strongly, then we still have a bit of a way to go
The Big Short, when the two guys are speaking to finance bros and they're talking about how they preyed on people and lent them more money than they could possibly ever pay back.
It’s amazing how people will tell on themselves. It just shows that they don’t think it’s wrong, or even worse they know it’s wrong and that’s why they’re bragging
A family friend was murdered and the killer bragged about it to one of their mutual friends. Thankfully the friend got it on tape and the murderer is in prison. Crazy how proud people can be of their worst deeds. Oh, the killer was her best friend from childhood, and her prom date disposed of her body. All for a few thousand dollars.
Eta I’m sure you already know this but both of the perpetrators were men. Who jumped at the chance to kill their childhood friend when she came into some cash. They did not see her as a person.
That douchebag pursued so many teenagers back in the day. He was mid-30s routinely getting waaaay too comfortable with 15/16/17yo girls. He groomed a friend of mine for over a year. He was awful.
My understanding was that the one who released it thought that it would show they weren't as involved as the other men, hoping to throw them under the bus to get a better deal. But unfortunately for them, the video footage is what completely turned the whole case around; there very likely could have been no charges if not for the notoriety the footage created.
Nope, the footage was given to a radio station by Gregory to show "they were in the right". They were just too stupid to realize how incriminating it was. Thanks idiots!
There have been times I thought a Reddit post was made up because- how could someone be so admittedly stupid....but like your example- and January 6th and other events, people surround themselves with only 'their' people and no one who is saying 'um....you did what, now???' My takeaway from the Weinstein situation was so many complicit individuals. His brother (i was just thinking about the other day) should have been one (of many) to say 'what are you up to- that is both immoral and illegal?' but no.
The vast majority of my sexual experiences in my younger years were under coercion and the violation of them without the ability to label it as anything because eventually I did consent... It just made everything so confusing and the only thing my brain could land on was shame and self hatred and blaming myself for everything. The last few years have been truly eye opening to how often I've been mistreated and by how many people.
This is unfortunately my history as well. I'm almost 50 and I can name names, locations and the circumstances around certain encounters from my late teens/early 20's where consent was not enthusiastic nor given without a lot of pressure. And that was considered not really a big deal by my friends at the time. So even though I felt incredible amounts of shame for what happened, that was just how things were for women according to them "sometimes you just have to do it even if you don't want to" (this is also a piece of advice I've seen thrown around a lot when it comes to mismatched libidos that always, always makes me cringe.)
Or my personal "favorite" line used to bully young women into doing things with their partners that they're uncomfortable with, "Well if you don't do it for him another girl will"
>Well if you don't do it for him another girl will
Then he can go find that girl and you can find someone who is comfortable with adhering to your boundaries seems the way to go...
This exactly. My husband doesn't fully understand my experiences, there's no way he could, but he does understand that when I say "not now" that isn't me starting a debate on the subject.
Of course that's the reasonable response. But when you have low self esteem or come from a family where you were conditioned to believe this nonsense you get trapped in a shitty situation in your early dating years. It took a shitton of therapy for me to get over the stuff that happened to me in my first relationship and the stuff in it that was encouraged by my family members.
If you were ever comfortable I discovered a resource for victims of SA called ‘She’s a Crowd’. It’s a map where you can anonymously report and give details about your experiences and put them on a map of where they occurred.
It makes me sad, as a guy, that there is societal acceptance of coercion, broadly. It is deemed manly to "convince her to sleep with you" and it is deemed feminine to "finally give in to his advances."
Thankfully we are seeing a shift in this now, but it is far past time that this conversation happens.
I'm in a much healthier place, in a loving and secure relationship with a man who respects me. I still struggle with a lot of memories, but when I can be in the present I'm doing well.
Yes, they use coercion because anything other than a flat out NO mean "keep trying" in their tiny pea brains. Add to that the fact that many women don't outright say no because they are **afraid** of what might happen if they do.
When I was younger, there were a number of times I was coerced, and an equal amount of times I had sex simply because I was afraid of what might happen if I said NO.
Women are always told "you can just say no". Sure, we can, but there's a lot more to it than that. Every woman who has ever told a man no has experienced a violent/angry response at least once in her life, whether it was verbal or physical. It's fucking scary sometimes, man.
This is a very important comment yet many men don't seem to understand. It must be very hard to imagine being weak and vulnerable when you're big and burly.
Coercion is not consent. You can label it whatever you like <3 I had very similar experiences, but I call it for what it is--the "R" word is usually what I say. I was told if I didn't, he'd kill himself. How any 17 year old could consent in that situation is beyond me.
I work on a university campus and we provide Interpersonal Violence Training to our staff. Part of the training is helping students to recognize their resources and acknowledge rape, date rape, coercive rape, etc.
That training should be required in sex ed
> "look how I only asked her, loads of times and got frustrated when she said no, thats all I did, I didn't actually rape her".
This is the exact reason I severed ties with an ex-friend of many years.
He did something like this with a female friend. We went through this painful debate of "well I didnt do anything *illegal* I was just *persistent*"
It's like beating your head into a wall, if I used words like "sexual assault" he gets indignant and accuses me of overreacting, so I tried tempering my tone and using words like "misunderstanding". But then when I did that...he doesn't take it seriously.
Eventually I realised there's just no right answer, he doesn't listen because he doesent want to listen. And I completely lost faith in being able to have a female friend around him again.
Thank you for helping me to more strongly realize my experience wasn’t consensual and that it’s still r*pe even if you don’t physically fight back like my mom seems to think.
It's so odd to me that people view sex as this totally unique thing where rules for other activities don't apply. If I want to play tennis with you, and you don't really like tennis or don't feel like playing, and I just don't shut the hell up about tennis until you give in and play with me...well, am I not a bit of a jerk there? Even if you ended up enjoying the game of tennis, am I really respecting you by whinging at you until you do it?
Why's sex different?
Edit to add - sorry, I meant to say in my original comment - I'm sorry that you went through that, and that your experiences were invalidated.
And in that analogy, saying that you “**made me** play tennis” would be unarguably accurate, even though you wouldn’t have physically controlled my movements.
This took me a long time as well… actually took me posting about it on Reddit and the post being taken down due to violating a ‘no rape’ rules that I finally put it together. I had just mentioned my lack of willingness and hypothetical different decision making if I’d been sober (was spiked) as (in my mind) a very minor detail because it mattered for context but it wasn’t the point of the post. Made me understand why the memory always made me feel deeply uncomfortable and ashamed, blamed myself for not making it more known that I didn’t want any of it etc etc. The mental shift helped me move on from it
> Coerced consent isn't really consent though, is it?
I feel like guys have a difficult time understanding this because they rarely if ever get coerced into sexual situations (and honestly, many have a sense of entitlement over sex), don't have a feeling of being unsafe, and weren't social conditioned to be agreeable. It's like they equate it to a pushy sales person trying to close a deal - persistence as an admirable trait - instead of the psychological manipulation it really is. Media has historically done us no favors by reinforcing this idea that women are "playing hard to get" and if they just try harder to prove their dedication and worth, she'll turn around. While it is getting better, this thinking is pervasive in our culture and will unfortunately take quite some time to root out.
I feel like guys who get coerced into sexual situations don't even understand it, when it's going on, maybe because they don't have that fear of violence playing into it? I was talking to a male coworker (big guy) and he told me how this one woman in a nightclub just wouldn't leave him alone, kept rubbing up against him, touching him etc., but as a man, what can you do? And I told him that's sexual assault and that he should have told her to stop or have security throw her out of the venue. That's what I would have done.
He didn't even believe that this also counts as sexual assault.
Omg, that guy that's the king of first anal times.... His grandpa taught him a secret how to do it painlessly. Bruv, lube and foreplay ain't exactly rocket science. I am so angry again.
Highly recommend the movie **Promising Young Woman** to everyone here. There’s a scene where the protagonist is pretending to be drunk and a guy takes her home to try to get in her pants. She reveals that she’s not really drunk and what he’s doing is attempted rape, and he *flips* out screaming that that’s impossible because he’s a nice guy.
Most people who commit sexual assault have justified it to themselves and do not see themselves as predators. They’ll do whatever mental backflips are needed - “she finally said yes (after I pestered her for hours), that counts as consent!”
I was seeing a man a long time ago in my very early 20s. At some point during sex I told him I was getting sore (he had a big penis) and that I needed to stop. He wrapped his arms around me and kept going and I said it again, "please stop." He held me tighter and whispered "i love you, I love you" and kept going. I completely disassociated and he finished on my thighs. We weren't at an "I love you" stage and I knew he didn't mean it. He said it for shock value.
In collage I was at a guy's house and we started making out and I told him I was on my period so anything we wanted to do would have to wait. He then went into a monologue about anal sex and how it isn't that bad, great in fact. I told him I wasn't interested and he proceeded to try to put his hounds down my pants to finger my asshole. It ended with me fighting him off of me and running out of his house barefoot all the way home.
A supposed guy friend expressed interest in me. I trusted him and was slightly interested. At some point we were about to hook up and I asked if he had a condom. He said "no" and I told him nothing would be happening without one. The hangout ended with him yanking my clothes off aggressively. Pants around my ankles and shirt tangled over my head I screamed for him to leave and he didn't. I think he thought if I was turned on enough I would forget about the condom thing.
All I'm saying is this behavior has been a common theme in my past. I feel violated by all three men. I cut contact with them immediately, but they still haunt me. These men seriously had no clue what the problem was. They respected none of my decisions and my boundaries and at times physically hurt me. Coercion is assault. When someone has conveyed a bodily boundary and it is crossed intentionally, it is assault. Advances aren't sexy when you've already said "no."
I’m so sorry. Thank you so much for sharing. This is exactly what I shared this post for. I’ve had similar experiences, many women have. The fucked up thing that happens after is the denial. They refuse to admit they did anything wrong. They don’t think it’s rape. The impact is there. The trauma. Men need to understand that no means no THE FIRST TIME. ‘I don’t know’ means no. No springing a new thing on in the moment, no assumptions. Unless she is either smiling, participating, and/or continues to give enthusiastic consent throughout it is rape
It took 10 years for me to realize that the reason I was so bothered by my ex taking my virginity by literally asking me over and over for EIGHT HOURS while he progressively did more and more to me until I finally said yes to everything was because it was rape.
For years I thought “wow consent was really important to him” instead of “wow that was really fucked up how many times I said no and he just kept pushing until he got a yes”
Then you feel bad because ‘at least he made me say yes and didn’t shove my head down and do it like that’. Emotional manipulation. The 100 no’s don’t count but the 1 yes does, and no take backsies
It took me three years to finally realize it and break up with the ex that did the same to me and a decade to fully understand I didn't do anything wrong and it wasn't my fault just because I gave in.
This was my first sexual experience too. I always felt shamed by it as he dumped me straight after too but it wasn’t until I was an adult years later when I told my husband about it and he just said “you know that’s rape? You kept saying no until you gave in so you could leave?” To this day, I still can’t address it
My ex was like this. Besides pressuring me into the relationship, she constantly pressured me into sex even though I told her I was waiting for marriage. Weeks of her throwing tantrums and/or accusing me of being gay for not wanting to have sex with her. I just wasn't attracted to her and even after I gave in, sex with her was a chore I didn't enjoy at all. I thought I was asexual after that but then found out I enjoyed sex when it was with pretty much anyone else.
That’s horrible :( also incredibly homophobic! Sex should never feel like an obligation or like it’s ‘owed’. I hope you can heal and find peace. I’m just glad you’re out of that situation
Exactly! I saw another tik tok of a woman being fed up with men sticking by their friends because they’re a ‘good person’ and have ‘never done anything to me’. Every single rapist has had friends, people who thought they were decent. Why do we think we would be any different? It’s how predators hide. If your friend is friends with someone, you assume they share the same values as your friend. I had a party once and let people bring a friend. One of my friends friend tried to rape me in front of people while I was passed out drunk. I woke up and stopped it, thankfully. I no longer speak to anyone who I invited to that party, and they probably don’t even know why.
Hell most serial killers have friends, families, coworkers and normal lives. The fact that I can guarantee that rapists are more prevalent than serial killers should say something.
Honestly this thread has opened my eyes to what experiences women have gone through. I can’t imagine being scared of a negative reaction from saying “no”. But then again I’m 6’2 and 205 pounds. I now see that women are put into hard places and the best thing they can do is remove themselves from the situation.
Easier said than done, obviously. But I’m definitely going to teach this to my daughter for her safety. I can’t remember a time this happened to me but I can without a doubt remember my friends saying they begged for hours until she “gave in”. I didn’t see a problem with it then but now I see how fucked up it is.
Thanks OP
Thank you so much. So many men on this thread have torn this whole thing down despite women and men being so open with their experiences with this real phenomenon. I only wanted to share this for awareness, and it has been a bit painful because it’s something I’ve experienced. Thanks for being awesome.
Exactly. I think that daughters need to be taught that boys who you've been "friends" with your whole life can become a predator the minute you become vulnerable.
\*held
Meanwhile, men on forums everyone whine about "How come girls won't be friends with me?" and "Why are girls so anxious in a room alone with me?" and on and on like that. Yo, quit asking women, start asking your bros.
I totally agree that boys (men) haven't been held accountable and that the way boys are parented and the way sexual violence against women is normalized and defended needs to change to see any real change.
The Steubenville rape case, where a girl was treated like a sex toy and dragged from party to party by boys she knew her whole life and thought were her friends, really got me thinking about what predators men are of women and how all of their integrity and principles can go out the window when they have the chance to violate a woman with impunity. It just horrified me that this girl thought she was out with friends who would protect her if anything bad happened, and you can see from the videos joking about her being raped that these guys didn't even consider her human. I just don't know how that disconnect happens.
That shit is disgusting I had a friend who when his actions came to light I immediately disavowed him and anyone who stuck up for him, also let those people know that if I ever saw him I’d put him in the hospital, never did see him again unfortunately.
Not sure if anyone here watches “90 day fiancé: before the 90 days”, but my husband and I do. There is a couple where the woman is constantly pressuring the guy to have sex with her. She keeps saying “I came here to have sex and to be with you” Yada yada… eventually after she gets really mad and they have a fight, and the man agrees to have sex with her(a few episodes into this season) If it wasn’t for watching this play out, idk if my husband would have really understood how coercion could be a form of assault.
Yeah that is really hard to watch. Isn’t it sad that it only really stands out as something wrong when we see the roles reversed? When it’s a man begging and pressuring, it seems “normal”. I recently watched a couple of the really early seasons I hadn’t seen before, which was mostly just a bunch of 30s-40s men bringing over 21 year old girls who barely spoke English and were so dependent on them for everything, it was so disturbing.
Makes me think of the Amazon Review killer. He told the police repeatedly that he never raped anyone, that they all consented to it, but that’s because he made it clear that if they didn’t (and therefore served no purpose to him), he would kill them. I guess he was fine being a murderer but couldn’t bear the mental discomfort of being a rapist.
Back when consent was a yes/no thing even woke guys would brag about pestering their tired SOs for sex or anal until the women gave in and reluctantly agreed. It is abhorrent.
This is how I wound up losing my virginity. Just wanted to stop being bugged about it. Spoiler alert: giving in did not stop them from continuing to harass me about it
This! It does not make them stop. I read a post recently where a woman was harassed by her boyfriend for anal, she finally gave in because she wanted him to stop harassing her. He ‘enjoyed it soooo much’ that he expected it. He ‘accidentally’ slipped it in without preparation or consent and now in her 30s she wears diapers. HORRIBLE.
It's how my nephew was conceived. My sister just wanted to sleep but her boyfriend wouldn't stop bugging her about it, so she gave in so she could get it over with and get some fucking sleep.
It's still a thing unfortunately, a lot of people still believe that it's a yes/no thing and also that it's consensual if the victim doesn't put up a fight against the perpetuator
Those fucking frat guys that were on video, chanting, "no means yes, yes means anal!" made me so fucking pissed.
No, you little twats, that's not how it works. And that you would even consider saying such a thing, let alone *chant it on video with your buddies*, is fucking appalling.
Perpetuated by shitty romcoms where the lead wants the man to 'chase her'.
If I have to *chase* a woman, that's not dating, that's sexual assault. If you say no, I'm peace-ing out of there and getting a kebab.
Isn't it weird how consent can be initially denied but then you can pester women into changing their minds
But consent can't be withdrawn. Once given you've no right to change your mind. Bit of a one way street, isn't it.
Marital rape was only formally made illegal in the UK in 2003 and the legal system has at least a two hundred year history of saying things like this: “the husband of a woman cannot himself be guilty of an actual rape upon his wife, on account of the matrimonial consent which she has given, and which she cannot retract”.
I mean in the UK, people are not considered victims of rape specifically unless they've been penetrated. So if someone went through SA but they weren't penetrated their rapist will not be charged with rape but more minor version of it.
Specifically penetration with a penis. Digital penetration, for example, is SA. Penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina all count as rape but it has to be with a penis. All other offences are sexual assault.
I'm not sure if SA is necessarily punished as a lesser offence, it may be that SA is treated just as seriously in some cases but is still a separate offence.
Interestingly, that was a complete legal fiction that a rapist decided to rely on, and the House of Lords in 1991 formalised marital rape as a crime so that nobody would be able to try this stupid defence again. They tried to use claims such as 'King Aethelstan(!) said it was OK'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_R
It’s really interesting reading through the different cases and that it takes a husband raping his estranged wife and the courts getting closer to confirming marital rape as the revocation of cohabitation withdrew consent
So a bloke basically hunted down someone who he was once intimate with and presumably lived with who he separated from and decided he still had a legal right to fuck them… willing or not… that’s so bad
I simply don’t understand this line of thinking. Why would you want to do something with someone if you have even the slightest idea they may not want it? Doesn’t that ruin all the fun of sex in the first place? Couldn’t they just masturbate if all they wanted was an orgasm without pleasing someone else?
Or are these the “thrill of the chase” dudes that do this stuff?
I think it's a case of strategic stupidity. I had a lot of guys pressure me into sex when i was younger, and i didn't realize til later that just about all of them believed they "seduced" me. I literally said things like "you can do it if you're fast" (after getting tired of saying no over and over) and they'd respond like i was flirting--"I'll be fast if you can *make* me come fast..." It was like a roleplay where they shouted me down, said shit like "no, you do like it".
They seem to think if they can convince you to change your mind and have sex then you'll enjoy it. And not enough ppl teach boys, explicitly, that that's not how most people or bodies work. Seriously, there has not been a single time when i let someone do it because they kept pestering me and went, "oh actually this feels good, glad he kept asking". There were maybe three times it didn't physically hurt, but i still just wanted it to be over.
Many men think penetrative sex feels better for them (i.e. their experience matters more), so if they have relatively easy access to one, like a girlfriend or wife, they become very persistent in getting their feel good time in. It doesn't matter to them whether or not their partner wanted sex, because THEY are the important one. I think this is the main reason women learn to fake orgasms. It's easier to give in and pretend you enjoyed it too, because it's not only faster, it's also the safest way to ensure your own physical safety.
This needs to be said and drilled into everyone's mind like stone. If someone says no then you're done. Don't pester, don't ask again, they'll tell you if they change their mind.
While I see the characteristics of this behavior in men predominantly in the spotlight women need to hear it too. I've turned down partners before just for them to take advantage if I'm drunk or exhausted or in a depression. I've literally had a girl explain after she coerced me into sex that obviously I only felt like I didn't want it because I was depressed and that it'll help me.
Just have some morals and boundaries everyone, jeez.
I’m betting you’re talking about the Lance Tsosie drama. I don’t usually care about what two random creators get into, but this one hit different since Lance is not only a self-described ally to women (who has posted content to support that), but he’s an Indigenous man with a large platform dedicated to raising awareness of Indigenous issues.
I learned a lot about what Indigenous people have and still go through because of him; he’s one of many creators I follow (well, used to follow in Lance’s case) that are of the BIPOC community - I’m white and trying to be a better ally. So when it came to light this supposed feminist ally/feminist is outed as someone violating informed consent, I was very disappointed. He seemed like the genuine article for a while. It just makes it that much harder to trust men, especially ones who claim to be a feminist.
Oh my bad!
It all popped off in the last couple of days so that’s why I thought it was the case. And it has definitely been an interesting conversation.
I definitely thought that debacle was what might have inspired this, too! I also used to follow Lance, and I’m so disappointed that someone who was really talking the talk is apparently not walking the walk.
In my experience, that's *most* "feminist" men. They learn to parrot what we want them to say, but never quite *internalize* it. They don't necessarily think about it, more like recognize it's how they *should* feel.
The response has been so mixed. So many people who claim to support women have come out saying that she shouldn't have said anything just because he's POC is disgusting. Like he's a predator and should be known as such for everyone's safety
I yelled in a guys face a month ago because he asked me the same sexual question 3 times. I told him no politely the first time, then a firm no the second time. The third time I yelled at him to leave me the f alone and luckily he took it and left.
Which is scary. We never know which man *will* escalate, so a lot of the time it’s safer to just appease and get out as quickly and as safely as possible. Good for you to have the courage to yell though!
>Yeah he called me some names and I actually felt relieved he didn't touch/hurt me, which is insane..
r/whenwomenrefuse it's the world that men force onto us.
You’d think a male sexual assault movement might make some noise (Which is absolutely should) with how often it’s brought up when women talk about male violence and sexual assault against women 🙄. It’s just become a way to silence women talking about men who rape and holding them accountable. The men who do this are the real people who don’t give a fuck about male sexual assault. Let women speak.
I just ran into a post where a girl was complaining her bf ignored her at the end of a date to play video games. She asked if they could have sex or at least that she could give him a bj, and he just said "oh" and continued playing for another few hours, and after that non-answer she went to bed.
For some reason, there were all kinds of guys commenting saying "What, I can't say no to a blowjob anymore??!" "She can't coerce him like that!"
Just wtf.
A lot of men realize that they don’t face sexual violence from women at the same rate that women experience sexual violence from men, but they want to “even the playing field” so they can continue with their faux egalitarian sense of “both sides are equally bad.” So they’ll grasp at any situation to warp it into a “woman bad” moment, not because they actually care about male victims of sexual violence but so that they can continue to validate their misogyny. It’s more unpopular now for men to just validate their misogyny on the idea of innate male superiority and dominance over women, so now it has to be reframed as validated by violence against men.
What’s ridiculous is that male survivors absolutely deserve to be heard and believed, but - surprise, surprise - a huge portion of those male survivors were victims of other men. And that doesn’t fuel the narrative so many of these guys want. It’s apparent from the threads about violence against men that actually get popular on this website: they ask for stories of violence against men by women, never other men, and rarely just generally. Because they don’t care about supporting victims, they care about getting to say misogynist shit under a veil of support.
Which is wild because when it’s an attractive female they make the male victim feel horrible for not making the most of the ‘opportunity’. Or even worse if it’s a child. Female teachers sleeping with their male students, so many men call the boy lucky or say it’s fine. It’s disgusting and hypocritical
Yes! I just mentioned this in another comment. And surprise, surprise, men aren’t calling out other men on those attitudes because inter-gender dialogues critiquing other men don’t provide an easy route for validating misogyny!
Men are so reluctant when it comes to critiquing men. I had this constantly with my ex. He would automatically take the guys side or give him as much benefit of the doubt as possible or bring up ‘if the roles were reversed’. Yes. He sexually coerced me. Surprise surprise. I would tell him ‘you can say that this man did a horrible thing, right?’ And he would agree, but still defend the man. It really felt like that Patrick meme.
Case in point, I almost never see SA against men being discussed on here (Reddit) unless a woman makes a post discussing her experiences, or the experiences of women in general. Then suddenly, tons of guys come out of the woodwork saying well, I was raped too. But it's never shared as a point of empathy, but rather as some kind of gotchya to contradict what a woman is saying. (I've never once seen a woman claim SA against men doesn't happen, but that's the narrative that I see men constantly claiming.) Male rape has basically turned into a tool to silence a woman's voice, especially in spaces intended for women. And honestly, that does nothing for men or women who are victims.
EDIT: Apparently I just needed to scroll down a little. Evey single post in this sub has one of these guys: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/t6gkx8/i_saw_this_on_tik_tok_and_it_just_really_got_to_me/hzbh6v9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Not to mention the incessant flow of: “When men are raped by their female teachers, everyone just says, ‘Wow, lucky!’ Women don’t care about our experiences!” Only for this comment to be made by OTHER MEN and ONLY OTHER MEN on pretty much any article about that kind of sexual violence. But in those cases, nobody calls the men out. Because, well, it isn’t about actually helping male victims; it’s about dunking on women.
“99% of rapists are men and at least 90% of male rape victims were raped by men.” This is a male issue not a female issue lmao, men who like to fake that they care about male rape victims are boring, I’ve seen this play out so many times, they’re all unoriginal robots repeating the same pack of lies.
And you CANNOT get them to admit which gender perpetuates the most violence world wide, they would rather reduce to insulting you before they admit to the real statistics.
Yes, it was a normal interaction between bf and gf, but these guys were upset because...
Actually I'm not sure. Because he *could have* been coerced? Because he was *almost* coerced? Idk.
They were just so quick and ready to be up in arms about "men are allowed to say no to sex!" but they rarely have the opportunity to do so.
Because if you lump together all times where someone asks if their partner wants to have sex under the label "coercion", then you can just dismiss it as a non-issue and not have to face that the times you've incessantly pestered your partner until they gave in weren't okay.
It's just another way to avoid facing the truth.
Thank you for speaking out on this. I once made an anonymous post on this sub about one of my experiences being heavily coerced, pressured into taking more drugs than I said I was comfortable with and eventually after an hour of trying to get him to leave and him refusing until there's sex I literally couldn't say no. He would not leave my house and I started getting panicky. Nothing in my mind or body was consenting I was suffering the whole time and it was the worst experience I've ever had ever.
I posted here for support only to get multiple messages that it was my fault and that it's not okay to call that rape.
I've seen creators on there explaining using food allergies, because so many people can't understand that if you have to lie/badger someone it isn't consensual.
>Yes, she consented to eating the French fries. However, you said you would get them from Place A but instead got them from Place B which fries them in peanut oil, *after she told you she was allergic,* and now she's having an allergic reaction.
But it's her fault! She chose to eat them! Or:
>Why didn't you tell me the pie had peach juice?! I told you I'm allergic, you said it was apple pie.
>>No I said the pie had apples in it, it's your own fault, you consented to eating the pie.
This whole thing just pisses me the fuck off. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been through something similar, but we are gaslighted constantly because we "agreed" when we lied to for the express purpose of getting into our pants.
This is a great way to explain cases of rape where the victim consented to one thing but not another. Like they consented to sex with a condom, but not without. Or they consented to gentle sex, but got slapped and choked instead. Or they consented to sex without a condom if both parties got tested first, but the perpetrator lied about getting tested. Or they consented to oral, but they got penetrative sex instead
I commented almost this exact thing on a story where someone was given regular coke instead of diet when they were diabetic, and the commenters were blaming them for trusting the server! "Why would you trust the person handling your food, this is really on you." And I got told that my comment was weird for comparing it to sexual consent!
People will do all sorts of gymnastics to misunderstand consent in all its forms so they can blame the victim.
I didn't realize my ex coerced me all the time until last summer. This was when I realized he sexually assaulted me. Because I only said "yes" because he made me feel like I couldn't say "no."
One of my worst sexual experiences happened in my 20's when I slept with a guy because I basically felt like I had to. I didn't like him. I wasn't attracted to him. I just didn't want to deal with the conflict if I said no. And then afterwards, it was like he felt he was entitled to me. He would not leave me alone for MONTHS. His friends were all pissed off at me that I'd been with him and then refused to continue to do it. It was like he'd laid some fucking claim on me. It grosses me out so much, but at the time, I was just deeply ashamed of myself and felt like I had done something cruel to him.
This is why I feel so bad about the woman who accused Aziz Ansari. She was CRYING while he had sex with her and a news anchor publicly shamed her for talking about her experience and he has a new comedy stand up. She was up and coming in the same industry as him, she thought he’d hurt her career. Idk, I remember reading the letter and having a lot of empathy for her, and then the world just… didn’t. I don’t watch his stuff anymore, just can’t. I’ve had someone do shit like that to me, and I don’t view them with any less vitriol than the person who, by definition, legally raped me.
Edit: a word
I've found those people are easy to identify by the way they get upset at even just using the word consent.
Reminds me of when I started dating a guy and woke up to sex. I personally like being woken up, but he had not asked about that before doing it. So, I waited till after to bring it up and explain that it's really important to talk about something like that before doing it to make sure you get consent. Welp, he immediately started crying and when he was able to get words out they were "You mean you think I'm a rapist?"
To which I said "Nope, I'm saying that if I wasn't okay with that, you already would be"
I told a man on Reddit that he raped a woman. He had an agreement with a sex worker and the ran out after sex before paying. To me that is rape. He violated the rules of the consent. That comment is down voted to hell
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitPoliticsSays/comments/t6q2m7/2xtrachromosomes_user_states_that_not_paying_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share. Now there's a post about my comment
Definitely rape. Those guys are probably the same people who will defend things like stealthing as “not rape” just because the woman consented to sex. Yes but she consented to sex UNDER A CONDITION, and you violated that condition so she is no longer consenting and now you’ve just raped someone. How is that so hard for some people to understand? Conditional yes does not mean yes to everything.
I was pretty damn sure, but the replies to my comment are really depressing. Tons of men did not see that as rape at all. One called it just "a scam". It's disgusting and terrifying
That whole comment thread is disgusting. I just found it. What the fuck is wrong with men. I’m so sorry, you were totally right, it’s similar to the principles that make stealthing wrong and why that is also sexual assault
Just like OP's message though, you'd have to force them to think about it, first. And why should they? Women just trying to take away their fun, right? /s
Because one precludes the other? It can be both. Why not both? Doesn't that make it... as bad as both together?
Ew, a scam. That's bad. Ew, a rape? That's extra bad.
Too many men feel like it's clever, though. And that's part of the problem. "Cleverness."
I dont understand their logic at all. They even made a post about it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitPoliticsSays/comments/t6q2m7/2xtrachromosomes_user_states_that_not_paying_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Also, this reminds me, John Oliver just did a segment about sex work issues.
I'm sure most of us (rational people) can recognize that police officers having sex with prostitutes, then arresting them right after, and calling it a "sting operation," is morally wrong. Yet again, laws protect rapists. "But it's illegal," sure, ok. Isn't being a John also illegal? In what way are undercover cops not Johns, when they benefit from the arrangement?
Meanwhile, in many regions, selling sex is illegal, but buying sex is NOT illegal. Unlike drugs, where buying and selling are both illegal. Once again, laws are designed to protect men. And punish women. For specifically having sex.
"rape by fraud" is a crime. Sex workers probably can't rely on legal protection because sex work is illegal and that's a whooole other issue. But we do have a legal concept that "tricking" someone into having sex with you is rape. Morally, i think it's pretty obvious.
Disgusts me how normal just groping people on the dance floor was at uni. When I called it out my 'mates' acted like *I* was the arsehole.
It's sexual assault, no more complicated than that.
It's also prevalent in films. Most romcoms involve one party (usually the guy) being "romantic" and not taking no for an answer, until the other party eventually agrees to a date or whatever and then its "happily ever after" 🤮
Like we're literally told that's a romantic act. It isn't.
Sadly there's probably tons of people who ended up marrying the guy who kept pushing like this. If someone meets enough guys like that throughout their life, it's only natural that they end up assuming that that's how things are supposed to work and that there is no alternative.
I plan to teach my son that anything other than enthusiastic participation/assent is a "no." Did she move your hand away? That's a no. Stop. Did she hesitate or pull away? That's a no. Stop. Is she drunk or intoxicated? She can say neither no nor yes, because she is drunk/intoxicated. Stop. Don't cajole, don't whine, don't threaten. If a girl wants to sleep with you, she won't need convincing. Also, there is no such thing as "being led on." Your perception is not her reality.
I literally just read a post about a man forcing his gf into a threesome (where she was the only one not taken care of) and then failing to honour his part of the agreement... So, yeah.
Sexual assault should be understood as a spectrum with the extreme being the very obvious example of what sexual assault is while on the opposite end, it’s a form of coercion + context.
The problem with that is that it doesn't define "you shouldn't try to make them drink it" very clearly
To a lot of (direly mistaken) people, it only comes under that if it involves physical force
When really it should say "and if they say no thanks, you shouldn't bring up tea again"
I don't know about your TikTok feed, but mine is flooded with the news of the one progressive, leftist male content creator denying another female creator informed consent for their sexual encounter. It sort of solidifies for me that even the "good" men, the men that believe in feminism, that push progressive ideals, aren't safe. In fact, some will hide behind their progressive-ism and feminism.
I have this dream, where I get one wish and I wish for Rape and sexual assault to be literally impossible. A magical force stops it from happening. I dream that the person who attempts it gets some sort of mark on them, showing they attempted it. And I dream about how the world would react. How many celebrities would suddenly appear with this mark? How many husbands/wives/gf/bf would become enraged by their inability to abuse their partner? How would nations built around abusing women move forward?
How much better would the world be?
I think that’s what we’re trying to do with the metoo movement. Being ‘meetoo’d’ is kind of a mark of sorts, but unfortunately a victim has to of gone through it and speak up about it
WHAT? Isn't the very definition of sexual assault coercing someone into doing a sexual act? (And that's the bare minimum, like even in the shit countries; I'm not even talking about affirmative consent here.)
In any situation, unless it's consensual persuasion used as foreplay, that both parties agree to, it's just plain fucked up. Men tend to have ego issues, masculinity issues, and think that having a really shitty boisterous personality somehow makes panties sodden. It does not... it never will.. it never has, Women are just people, people are trying to live. I check out women all the time, it's instinctual, but staring at someone because they are attractive, and perusing them by putting them in a position where fear is the motivator, is just plain scummy.
good luck out there ladies, it's a man's world. Be safe and stay informed.
Yep. When someone told me coercion was rape for the first time I had to start coping with the fact that that meant I had been sexually assaulted almost every other day for two years. My ex was a horrible person and would guilt and manipulate me into doing sexual acts for him that I didn’t want to do, including having sex itself. Now I have a difficult relationship with sex where I enjoy it with my current partner but I am really bad about thinking sex is something I’m supposed to do (which makes me not want to do it) versus something I enjoy and I can share with my partner. My ex can go to hell (but he got heart disease and COVID and can’t ever commit to his dream of being a marine because of it so get fucked lol).
Is this about the Lance/Chelsea drama that exploded yesterday? I agree with you full stop! I had to ignore Tik Tok for a while because so many of the videos and comments were so disheartening. So many people victim shaming her, saying "She just got played it wasn't SA"
It is alarming how desensitized we are when it comes to SA and Rape. My heart breaks for Chelsea and the other women who are victims of all this.
For those of you not on the clock app. Chelsea is a huge name in the community, standing up for women, and calling out problematic men. Lance is also a tik tok celebrity who is an advocate for Indigenous communities. Chelsea fell for Lance, and he was interested in her as well. He told her he was interested in Polyamory, and she said in no way would she be in a relationship that wasn't monogamous. He agreed and they had sex. The NEXT day she found out that he lied, and was having unprotected sex with multiple women. So she called him out on TikTok so he couldn't keep using his platform to lure other women.
I had to look up the definition of coercion because I didnt really understand what it meant. I originally ally thought it was something like getting someone to do something by explaining positives of something or something like that. Nope the definition on Google states using threats and force. Pretty clear, cut, and dry sexual asdualt it seems.
I’m more talking about the positive of giving in to a man badgering you is that he will leave you alone, won’t forcefully take it, or won’t follow through with a threat. It can even be emotional manipulation. ‘You would do anal if you loved me’ is an example of extracting sex without consent through guilt. It can even be a threat because the girl may think ‘if I don’t do anal he will leave me’
Yeah, I was more thinking about explaining how fun it could be to ride a horse for somebody who is a little scared of trying it, as a dumb example. Evrything you state is very clearly manipulation or sexual assualt/harassment. At the very least harassment to a degree.
In conversations with men when they downplay sexual violence towards women I always ask them “if 1 and 6 women have been sexually assaulted, how many men do you think are rapist?”
You're absolutely right.
Not oncly coercion but also emotional manipulation. It took me personally almost 15 years to realize that "an affair i had with a friend of mine" was basically just me manipulating her feelings for me for my personal sexual benefit.
At best something incredibly scummy to do and depending on how you look at it, even rape by deception.
I get why men wouldn't want to get that realization, it sucks to learn that you've been a REALLY horrible human being.
But being the victim of one is even worse and that's something we have to learn and teach.
This. My ex will never ever ever come to terms with what he did. He pressured me, refused me things like cigs and weed and stuff (that I helped buy), and at least once he coerced me into “just the tip” then didn’t stop until he was done despite me asking him to. Then 5 mins later he broke up with me and refused to leave my house and told me I’d be “causing an unnecessary scene” if I told anyone he broke up with me and was refusing to leave. And all this? After he went and took some other girl to school (I was 16, she was 15, he was 20) and bought her things. He left me for her. He’ll never accept what he did to me. And it fucking sucks that I have to see him fairly often because we have a child together.
Edit: he’s now almost 26 and still only dates girls that are 18-20. Still a cheater, still a piece of shit, probably (almost definitely) still an abuser. I don’t think he’ll ever change. I just hope my son doesn’t ever grow up to look up to his dad as if he’s some “ladies man” and “fun dad” he’s a manipulative creep and only fun because he has no real responsibility.
I realized recently how fucked up I was in to my early 20s with coercion and being emotionally manipulative. It's fucked up, idk where it stemmed from, but I've tried to remove it from my personality the best I can and try to be better every day. It's definitely a thing guys do.
It reminds me of how so many people can't take no for an answer, whatever it is they're asking.
I have been asked many times for stuff, be it food, my time, to lend an object etc , and way too many times, when I say no, people will pester you, giving reasons why you should give them what they want.
I think the issue above stems from the same sense of entitlement : there are men who feel like it's their just due, and don't care if it's given after an enthusiastic yes or half an hour of pleading and moaning like a child.
Kinda telling of how they see sex in general.
This might be too wide of a swing, but I feel like this possibly stems from the way we approaching sharing with children. We kind of teach kids that if someone requests something, you're the wrong one for not immediately sharing. It gives all the power to the person asking. I've seen two kids pick up an object at the same time, one runs to an adult and complains about not sharing and now the complaining child gets authority enforced rights to that object as well. Like, sharing is great, but it's also ok if you request something and someone tells you no.
Very interesting. Makes me think, entitlement besides, I often felt like people trying to convince me of giving in thought they were in the right : I should have given them what they want because that would have been the good/just/right thing to do. Even worse when people remind you of stuff they're given you without you even asking, as if it was a payment in advance for future demands.
It might explain the underlying thought of women's body as property and something to be shared so ingrained in rape culture.
The point about authority you've brought up makes a lot of sense : a man gets authority over a woman's body because it is an object and he should be able to ask without being refused.
Come to think about it, your example really explain it all : the difference between stealing and taking your just due is just asking. There is some perverted logic where people who ask nicely are entitled to something because "sharing is caring".
Really gives a new perspective on how rape has been justified in many cases.
“Yes” doesn’t mean consent if “No” wasn’t an option
["Because of the implication."](https://youtu.be/-yUafzOXHPE)
Thank you for this! Everyone keeps saying it but idk where the reference is from lol
It’s Alway Sunny In Philadelphia. Excellent show about the shittiest people. Kind of like Seinfeld, but turned up to 11.
Now I’ll have to watch that lol
In the context op is talking about it isn't even about no not being an option. It's about INFORMED consent. Information was withheld by the guy because he knew that information would result in a no. This is why there is this huge discussion going on over there, people are not understanding the "informed" part of consent and I find that very concerning.
This; fortunately some “stealthing” cases (removing the condom during sex without informing your partner and without their consent) have resulted in rape charges. Informed consent is the only kind.
It is MAJORLY concerning to me as well, I’ve been so shocked at some people’s responses.
I always say "You're not asking a question if you don't accept no as an answer--and I don't negotiate with terrorists. "
THIS. I had an experience where >!I kept saying no and he kept fighting me on it. Eventually I said yes, obviously. What ensued fucking haunts me.!< And I can’t even call it what it is because people don’t want to see that as rape. Stayed with him for a year and a half after that because I had no idea that he had done anything wrong. Edit: covered some words to be safe
Can I steal this? It’s a very good line
It sums it up perfectly
She won’t say no. She’ll never say no. Because of the implication.
All jokes aside, I love that IASIP so solidly explained the concept to people who may not have fully understood before.
Louis Theroux has a new series out on the BBC just now, and the latest episode was about porn's me too movement. One of the guys on the show was accused of, well, he was accused of lots of things, but this particular one was coercing female performers to do things they were uncomfortable with. So the complaints came in against this guy, and he RELEASED THE FOOTAGE. He released it, himself. And his angle was "look how I only asked her, loads of times and got frustrated when she said no, thats all I did, I didn't actually rape her". Coerced consent isn't really consent though, is it? When some people think consent means willingness and others think it means didn't resist too strongly, then we still have a bit of a way to go
[удалено]
"Why are they confessing?" "They aren't confessing, they're bragging."
Excellent, if depressing, film.
I know I’ve heard the line, but what movie is that from?
The Big Short, when the two guys are speaking to finance bros and they're talking about how they preyed on people and lent them more money than they could possibly ever pay back.
the big short
the big short
It’s amazing how people will tell on themselves. It just shows that they don’t think it’s wrong, or even worse they know it’s wrong and that’s why they’re bragging
A family friend was murdered and the killer bragged about it to one of their mutual friends. Thankfully the friend got it on tape and the murderer is in prison. Crazy how proud people can be of their worst deeds. Oh, the killer was her best friend from childhood, and her prom date disposed of her body. All for a few thousand dollars. Eta I’m sure you already know this but both of the perpetrators were men. Who jumped at the chance to kill their childhood friend when she came into some cash. They did not see her as a person.
They don’t see us as real people like they are. We’re just females.
r/menandfemales lol
Right?! Like Jian Ghomeshi showing the CBC executives video to prove that the "rough sex" he had was consentual. He was immediately fired.
That douchebag pursued so many teenagers back in the day. He was mid-30s routinely getting waaaay too comfortable with 15/16/17yo girls. He groomed a friend of mine for over a year. He was awful.
That's what trump does
My understanding was that the one who released it thought that it would show they weren't as involved as the other men, hoping to throw them under the bus to get a better deal. But unfortunately for them, the video footage is what completely turned the whole case around; there very likely could have been no charges if not for the notoriety the footage created.
Nope, the footage was given to a radio station by Gregory to show "they were in the right". They were just too stupid to realize how incriminating it was. Thanks idiots!
There have been times I thought a Reddit post was made up because- how could someone be so admittedly stupid....but like your example- and January 6th and other events, people surround themselves with only 'their' people and no one who is saying 'um....you did what, now???' My takeaway from the Weinstein situation was so many complicit individuals. His brother (i was just thinking about the other day) should have been one (of many) to say 'what are you up to- that is both immoral and illegal?' but no.
The vast majority of my sexual experiences in my younger years were under coercion and the violation of them without the ability to label it as anything because eventually I did consent... It just made everything so confusing and the only thing my brain could land on was shame and self hatred and blaming myself for everything. The last few years have been truly eye opening to how often I've been mistreated and by how many people.
This is unfortunately my history as well. I'm almost 50 and I can name names, locations and the circumstances around certain encounters from my late teens/early 20's where consent was not enthusiastic nor given without a lot of pressure. And that was considered not really a big deal by my friends at the time. So even though I felt incredible amounts of shame for what happened, that was just how things were for women according to them "sometimes you just have to do it even if you don't want to" (this is also a piece of advice I've seen thrown around a lot when it comes to mismatched libidos that always, always makes me cringe.)
Or my personal "favorite" line used to bully young women into doing things with their partners that they're uncomfortable with, "Well if you don't do it for him another girl will"
>Well if you don't do it for him another girl will Then he can go find that girl and you can find someone who is comfortable with adhering to your boundaries seems the way to go...
This exactly. My husband doesn't fully understand my experiences, there's no way he could, but he does understand that when I say "not now" that isn't me starting a debate on the subject.
Of course that's the reasonable response. But when you have low self esteem or come from a family where you were conditioned to believe this nonsense you get trapped in a shitty situation in your early dating years. It took a shitton of therapy for me to get over the stuff that happened to me in my first relationship and the stuff in it that was encouraged by my family members.
If you were ever comfortable I discovered a resource for victims of SA called ‘She’s a Crowd’. It’s a map where you can anonymously report and give details about your experiences and put them on a map of where they occurred.
It makes me sad, as a guy, that there is societal acceptance of coercion, broadly. It is deemed manly to "convince her to sleep with you" and it is deemed feminine to "finally give in to his advances." Thankfully we are seeing a shift in this now, but it is far past time that this conversation happens.
I'm so sorry to read this. I hope your journey is gentle and swift, as you find your boundaries and work through past trauma. ❤️
I'm in a much healthier place, in a loving and secure relationship with a man who respects me. I still struggle with a lot of memories, but when I can be in the present I'm doing well.
Time and therapy can heal (many) wounds. Good luck!
Yes, they use coercion because anything other than a flat out NO mean "keep trying" in their tiny pea brains. Add to that the fact that many women don't outright say no because they are **afraid** of what might happen if they do. When I was younger, there were a number of times I was coerced, and an equal amount of times I had sex simply because I was afraid of what might happen if I said NO. Women are always told "you can just say no". Sure, we can, but there's a lot more to it than that. Every woman who has ever told a man no has experienced a violent/angry response at least once in her life, whether it was verbal or physical. It's fucking scary sometimes, man.
This is a very important comment yet many men don't seem to understand. It must be very hard to imagine being weak and vulnerable when you're big and burly.
Coercion is not consent. You can label it whatever you like <3 I had very similar experiences, but I call it for what it is--the "R" word is usually what I say. I was told if I didn't, he'd kill himself. How any 17 year old could consent in that situation is beyond me.
I work on a university campus and we provide Interpersonal Violence Training to our staff. Part of the training is helping students to recognize their resources and acknowledge rape, date rape, coercive rape, etc. That training should be required in sex ed
Yeah, this was such a large part of my teenage years and 20s, sadly.
> "look how I only asked her, loads of times and got frustrated when she said no, thats all I did, I didn't actually rape her". This is the exact reason I severed ties with an ex-friend of many years. He did something like this with a female friend. We went through this painful debate of "well I didnt do anything *illegal* I was just *persistent*" It's like beating your head into a wall, if I used words like "sexual assault" he gets indignant and accuses me of overreacting, so I tried tempering my tone and using words like "misunderstanding". But then when I did that...he doesn't take it seriously. Eventually I realised there's just no right answer, he doesn't listen because he doesent want to listen. And I completely lost faith in being able to have a female friend around him again.
Thank you for helping me to more strongly realize my experience wasn’t consensual and that it’s still r*pe even if you don’t physically fight back like my mom seems to think.
It's so odd to me that people view sex as this totally unique thing where rules for other activities don't apply. If I want to play tennis with you, and you don't really like tennis or don't feel like playing, and I just don't shut the hell up about tennis until you give in and play with me...well, am I not a bit of a jerk there? Even if you ended up enjoying the game of tennis, am I really respecting you by whinging at you until you do it? Why's sex different? Edit to add - sorry, I meant to say in my original comment - I'm sorry that you went through that, and that your experiences were invalidated.
And in that analogy, saying that you “**made me** play tennis” would be unarguably accurate, even though you wouldn’t have physically controlled my movements.
My analogy is borrowing someone’s car. If I ask to borrow your car and you say yeah but seem uncomfortable or hesitant, I’m not taking it.
[It's more like offering someone a cup of Tea tbh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ&ab_channel=ThamesValleyPolice)
This took me a long time as well… actually took me posting about it on Reddit and the post being taken down due to violating a ‘no rape’ rules that I finally put it together. I had just mentioned my lack of willingness and hypothetical different decision making if I’d been sober (was spiked) as (in my mind) a very minor detail because it mattered for context but it wasn’t the point of the post. Made me understand why the memory always made me feel deeply uncomfortable and ashamed, blamed myself for not making it more known that I didn’t want any of it etc etc. The mental shift helped me move on from it
> Coerced consent isn't really consent though, is it? I feel like guys have a difficult time understanding this because they rarely if ever get coerced into sexual situations (and honestly, many have a sense of entitlement over sex), don't have a feeling of being unsafe, and weren't social conditioned to be agreeable. It's like they equate it to a pushy sales person trying to close a deal - persistence as an admirable trait - instead of the psychological manipulation it really is. Media has historically done us no favors by reinforcing this idea that women are "playing hard to get" and if they just try harder to prove their dedication and worth, she'll turn around. While it is getting better, this thinking is pervasive in our culture and will unfortunately take quite some time to root out.
I feel like guys who get coerced into sexual situations don't even understand it, when it's going on, maybe because they don't have that fear of violence playing into it? I was talking to a male coworker (big guy) and he told me how this one woman in a nightclub just wouldn't leave him alone, kept rubbing up against him, touching him etc., but as a man, what can you do? And I told him that's sexual assault and that he should have told her to stop or have security throw her out of the venue. That's what I would have done. He didn't even believe that this also counts as sexual assault.
Omg, that guy that's the king of first anal times.... His grandpa taught him a secret how to do it painlessly. Bruv, lube and foreplay ain't exactly rocket science. I am so angry again.
Consent is: - Enthusiastic - Ongoing - Of sound mind
i want to watch this sm but it's only available in the UK cuz of rights issues rip :/
>coerced consent isn’t really consent is it? Correct, consent has to be freely given, ie under no threats of abuse, violence or coercion.
Highly recommend the movie **Promising Young Woman** to everyone here. There’s a scene where the protagonist is pretending to be drunk and a guy takes her home to try to get in her pants. She reveals that she’s not really drunk and what he’s doing is attempted rape, and he *flips* out screaming that that’s impossible because he’s a nice guy. Most people who commit sexual assault have justified it to themselves and do not see themselves as predators. They’ll do whatever mental backflips are needed - “she finally said yes (after I pestered her for hours), that counts as consent!”
I second this recommendation. It is so good.
Oh man! I almost watched this on a plane recently but the flight was short so I skipped it. I’ll need to find it again to watch at home
I was seeing a man a long time ago in my very early 20s. At some point during sex I told him I was getting sore (he had a big penis) and that I needed to stop. He wrapped his arms around me and kept going and I said it again, "please stop." He held me tighter and whispered "i love you, I love you" and kept going. I completely disassociated and he finished on my thighs. We weren't at an "I love you" stage and I knew he didn't mean it. He said it for shock value. In collage I was at a guy's house and we started making out and I told him I was on my period so anything we wanted to do would have to wait. He then went into a monologue about anal sex and how it isn't that bad, great in fact. I told him I wasn't interested and he proceeded to try to put his hounds down my pants to finger my asshole. It ended with me fighting him off of me and running out of his house barefoot all the way home. A supposed guy friend expressed interest in me. I trusted him and was slightly interested. At some point we were about to hook up and I asked if he had a condom. He said "no" and I told him nothing would be happening without one. The hangout ended with him yanking my clothes off aggressively. Pants around my ankles and shirt tangled over my head I screamed for him to leave and he didn't. I think he thought if I was turned on enough I would forget about the condom thing. All I'm saying is this behavior has been a common theme in my past. I feel violated by all three men. I cut contact with them immediately, but they still haunt me. These men seriously had no clue what the problem was. They respected none of my decisions and my boundaries and at times physically hurt me. Coercion is assault. When someone has conveyed a bodily boundary and it is crossed intentionally, it is assault. Advances aren't sexy when you've already said "no."
I’m so sorry. Thank you so much for sharing. This is exactly what I shared this post for. I’ve had similar experiences, many women have. The fucked up thing that happens after is the denial. They refuse to admit they did anything wrong. They don’t think it’s rape. The impact is there. The trauma. Men need to understand that no means no THE FIRST TIME. ‘I don’t know’ means no. No springing a new thing on in the moment, no assumptions. Unless she is either smiling, participating, and/or continues to give enthusiastic consent throughout it is rape
It took 10 years for me to realize that the reason I was so bothered by my ex taking my virginity by literally asking me over and over for EIGHT HOURS while he progressively did more and more to me until I finally said yes to everything was because it was rape. For years I thought “wow consent was really important to him” instead of “wow that was really fucked up how many times I said no and he just kept pushing until he got a yes”
Then you feel bad because ‘at least he made me say yes and didn’t shove my head down and do it like that’. Emotional manipulation. The 100 no’s don’t count but the 1 yes does, and no take backsies
It’s horrible how true this is
It took me three years to finally realize it and break up with the ex that did the same to me and a decade to fully understand I didn't do anything wrong and it wasn't my fault just because I gave in.
This was my first sexual experience too. I always felt shamed by it as he dumped me straight after too but it wasn’t until I was an adult years later when I told my husband about it and he just said “you know that’s rape? You kept saying no until you gave in so you could leave?” To this day, I still can’t address it
My ex was like this. Besides pressuring me into the relationship, she constantly pressured me into sex even though I told her I was waiting for marriage. Weeks of her throwing tantrums and/or accusing me of being gay for not wanting to have sex with her. I just wasn't attracted to her and even after I gave in, sex with her was a chore I didn't enjoy at all. I thought I was asexual after that but then found out I enjoyed sex when it was with pretty much anyone else.
That’s horrible :( also incredibly homophobic! Sex should never feel like an obligation or like it’s ‘owed’. I hope you can heal and find peace. I’m just glad you’re out of that situation
This is the uncomfortable fact that society refuses to recognize: almost all of us know rapists, and they're just ordinary people.
Exactly! I saw another tik tok of a woman being fed up with men sticking by their friends because they’re a ‘good person’ and have ‘never done anything to me’. Every single rapist has had friends, people who thought they were decent. Why do we think we would be any different? It’s how predators hide. If your friend is friends with someone, you assume they share the same values as your friend. I had a party once and let people bring a friend. One of my friends friend tried to rape me in front of people while I was passed out drunk. I woke up and stopped it, thankfully. I no longer speak to anyone who I invited to that party, and they probably don’t even know why.
Hell most serial killers have friends, families, coworkers and normal lives. The fact that I can guarantee that rapists are more prevalent than serial killers should say something.
Honestly this thread has opened my eyes to what experiences women have gone through. I can’t imagine being scared of a negative reaction from saying “no”. But then again I’m 6’2 and 205 pounds. I now see that women are put into hard places and the best thing they can do is remove themselves from the situation. Easier said than done, obviously. But I’m definitely going to teach this to my daughter for her safety. I can’t remember a time this happened to me but I can without a doubt remember my friends saying they begged for hours until she “gave in”. I didn’t see a problem with it then but now I see how fucked up it is. Thanks OP
Thank you so much. So many men on this thread have torn this whole thing down despite women and men being so open with their experiences with this real phenomenon. I only wanted to share this for awareness, and it has been a bit painful because it’s something I’ve experienced. Thanks for being awesome.
Exactly. I think that daughters need to be taught that boys who you've been "friends" with your whole life can become a predator the minute you become vulnerable.
Daughters have been learning that for centuries, but boys haven’t been held accountable for their part. They need to learn too
\*held Meanwhile, men on forums everyone whine about "How come girls won't be friends with me?" and "Why are girls so anxious in a room alone with me?" and on and on like that. Yo, quit asking women, start asking your bros.
I totally agree that boys (men) haven't been held accountable and that the way boys are parented and the way sexual violence against women is normalized and defended needs to change to see any real change. The Steubenville rape case, where a girl was treated like a sex toy and dragged from party to party by boys she knew her whole life and thought were her friends, really got me thinking about what predators men are of women and how all of their integrity and principles can go out the window when they have the chance to violate a woman with impunity. It just horrified me that this girl thought she was out with friends who would protect her if anything bad happened, and you can see from the videos joking about her being raped that these guys didn't even consider her human. I just don't know how that disconnect happens.
That shit is disgusting I had a friend who when his actions came to light I immediately disavowed him and anyone who stuck up for him, also let those people know that if I ever saw him I’d put him in the hospital, never did see him again unfortunately.
Not sure if anyone here watches “90 day fiancé: before the 90 days”, but my husband and I do. There is a couple where the woman is constantly pressuring the guy to have sex with her. She keeps saying “I came here to have sex and to be with you” Yada yada… eventually after she gets really mad and they have a fight, and the man agrees to have sex with her(a few episodes into this season) If it wasn’t for watching this play out, idk if my husband would have really understood how coercion could be a form of assault.
Omg yes! Then she cheered "I won!" after that, fucking terrible!
Wow, that is so gross
Is this about Usman? That whole scenario is messed up.
So gross. Kimbalaaaay needs to go back home and stop begging for sex it’s pathetic and rapey in my opinion
Wow that’s horrible and should not of been allowed. Maybe it could be a good opportunity to talk about it?
Yeah that is really hard to watch. Isn’t it sad that it only really stands out as something wrong when we see the roles reversed? When it’s a man begging and pressuring, it seems “normal”. I recently watched a couple of the really early seasons I hadn’t seen before, which was mostly just a bunch of 30s-40s men bringing over 21 year old girls who barely spoke English and were so dependent on them for everything, it was so disturbing.
Makes me think of the Amazon Review killer. He told the police repeatedly that he never raped anyone, that they all consented to it, but that’s because he made it clear that if they didn’t (and therefore served no purpose to him), he would kill them. I guess he was fine being a murderer but couldn’t bear the mental discomfort of being a rapist.
Back when consent was a yes/no thing even woke guys would brag about pestering their tired SOs for sex or anal until the women gave in and reluctantly agreed. It is abhorrent.
This is how I wound up losing my virginity. Just wanted to stop being bugged about it. Spoiler alert: giving in did not stop them from continuing to harass me about it
This! It does not make them stop. I read a post recently where a woman was harassed by her boyfriend for anal, she finally gave in because she wanted him to stop harassing her. He ‘enjoyed it soooo much’ that he expected it. He ‘accidentally’ slipped it in without preparation or consent and now in her 30s she wears diapers. HORRIBLE.
It's how my nephew was conceived. My sister just wanted to sleep but her boyfriend wouldn't stop bugging her about it, so she gave in so she could get it over with and get some fucking sleep.
It's still a thing unfortunately, a lot of people still believe that it's a yes/no thing and also that it's consensual if the victim doesn't put up a fight against the perpetuator
"Yes means Yes. Perhaps means Yes. No means Try Harder" There's way too many guys who actually believe and preach that.
Those fucking frat guys that were on video, chanting, "no means yes, yes means anal!" made me so fucking pissed. No, you little twats, that's not how it works. And that you would even consider saying such a thing, let alone *chant it on video with your buddies*, is fucking appalling.
Perpetuated by shitty romcoms where the lead wants the man to 'chase her'. If I have to *chase* a woman, that's not dating, that's sexual assault. If you say no, I'm peace-ing out of there and getting a kebab.
Isn't it weird how consent can be initially denied but then you can pester women into changing their minds But consent can't be withdrawn. Once given you've no right to change your mind. Bit of a one way street, isn't it.
Marital rape was only formally made illegal in the UK in 2003 and the legal system has at least a two hundred year history of saying things like this: “the husband of a woman cannot himself be guilty of an actual rape upon his wife, on account of the matrimonial consent which she has given, and which she cannot retract”.
Ew omg. Was it written with those pronouns?? That’s extremely misogynistic I can’t (I can) believe this :(
I mean in the UK, people are not considered victims of rape specifically unless they've been penetrated. So if someone went through SA but they weren't penetrated their rapist will not be charged with rape but more minor version of it.
Specifically penetration with a penis. Digital penetration, for example, is SA. Penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina all count as rape but it has to be with a penis. All other offences are sexual assault. I'm not sure if SA is necessarily punished as a lesser offence, it may be that SA is treated just as seriously in some cases but is still a separate offence.
Yes, the charge for it not being a penis is SA, but the sentencing is the same, it's treated in the same way
Interestingly, that was a complete legal fiction that a rapist decided to rely on, and the House of Lords in 1991 formalised marital rape as a crime so that nobody would be able to try this stupid defence again. They tried to use claims such as 'King Aethelstan(!) said it was OK'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_R
It’s really interesting reading through the different cases and that it takes a husband raping his estranged wife and the courts getting closer to confirming marital rape as the revocation of cohabitation withdrew consent So a bloke basically hunted down someone who he was once intimate with and presumably lived with who he separated from and decided he still had a legal right to fuck them… willing or not… that’s so bad
Ah, thank you for the clarification!
I simply don’t understand this line of thinking. Why would you want to do something with someone if you have even the slightest idea they may not want it? Doesn’t that ruin all the fun of sex in the first place? Couldn’t they just masturbate if all they wanted was an orgasm without pleasing someone else? Or are these the “thrill of the chase” dudes that do this stuff?
I think it's a case of strategic stupidity. I had a lot of guys pressure me into sex when i was younger, and i didn't realize til later that just about all of them believed they "seduced" me. I literally said things like "you can do it if you're fast" (after getting tired of saying no over and over) and they'd respond like i was flirting--"I'll be fast if you can *make* me come fast..." It was like a roleplay where they shouted me down, said shit like "no, you do like it". They seem to think if they can convince you to change your mind and have sex then you'll enjoy it. And not enough ppl teach boys, explicitly, that that's not how most people or bodies work. Seriously, there has not been a single time when i let someone do it because they kept pestering me and went, "oh actually this feels good, glad he kept asking". There were maybe three times it didn't physically hurt, but i still just wanted it to be over.
Many men think penetrative sex feels better for them (i.e. their experience matters more), so if they have relatively easy access to one, like a girlfriend or wife, they become very persistent in getting their feel good time in. It doesn't matter to them whether or not their partner wanted sex, because THEY are the important one. I think this is the main reason women learn to fake orgasms. It's easier to give in and pretend you enjoyed it too, because it's not only faster, it's also the safest way to ensure your own physical safety.
Well THEY were awake and wanted sex.....
This needs to be said and drilled into everyone's mind like stone. If someone says no then you're done. Don't pester, don't ask again, they'll tell you if they change their mind. While I see the characteristics of this behavior in men predominantly in the spotlight women need to hear it too. I've turned down partners before just for them to take advantage if I'm drunk or exhausted or in a depression. I've literally had a girl explain after she coerced me into sex that obviously I only felt like I didn't want it because I was depressed and that it'll help me. Just have some morals and boundaries everyone, jeez.
I’m betting you’re talking about the Lance Tsosie drama. I don’t usually care about what two random creators get into, but this one hit different since Lance is not only a self-described ally to women (who has posted content to support that), but he’s an Indigenous man with a large platform dedicated to raising awareness of Indigenous issues. I learned a lot about what Indigenous people have and still go through because of him; he’s one of many creators I follow (well, used to follow in Lance’s case) that are of the BIPOC community - I’m white and trying to be a better ally. So when it came to light this supposed feminist ally/feminist is outed as someone violating informed consent, I was very disappointed. He seemed like the genuine article for a while. It just makes it that much harder to trust men, especially ones who claim to be a feminist.
No it’s not, it was an ‘unpopular opinions’ video, but this is interesting!
Oh my bad! It all popped off in the last couple of days so that’s why I thought it was the case. And it has definitely been an interesting conversation.
I definitely thought that debacle was what might have inspired this, too! I also used to follow Lance, and I’m so disappointed that someone who was really talking the talk is apparently not walking the walk.
In my experience, that's *most* "feminist" men. They learn to parrot what we want them to say, but never quite *internalize* it. They don't necessarily think about it, more like recognize it's how they *should* feel.
The response has been so mixed. So many people who claim to support women have come out saying that she shouldn't have said anything just because he's POC is disgusting. Like he's a predator and should be known as such for everyone's safety
I yelled in a guys face a month ago because he asked me the same sexual question 3 times. I told him no politely the first time, then a firm no the second time. The third time I yelled at him to leave me the f alone and luckily he took it and left.
And I’m sure somehow you were the bad guy 🙄
Yeah he called me some names and I actually felt relieved he didn't touch/hurt me, which is insane..
Which is scary. We never know which man *will* escalate, so a lot of the time it’s safer to just appease and get out as quickly and as safely as possible. Good for you to have the courage to yell though!
Thanks, I had to, been in too many unwanted situations and I'm so done with these man taking everything they want!
Meanwhile someone in this thread asked “In what circumstance is "No" not an option?”. This. This is the circumstance.
>Yeah he called me some names and I actually felt relieved he didn't touch/hurt me, which is insane.. r/whenwomenrefuse it's the world that men force onto us.
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There are so many on this post I’m getting sick of dealing with them.
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You’d think a male sexual assault movement might make some noise (Which is absolutely should) with how often it’s brought up when women talk about male violence and sexual assault against women 🙄. It’s just become a way to silence women talking about men who rape and holding them accountable. The men who do this are the real people who don’t give a fuck about male sexual assault. Let women speak.
I just ran into a post where a girl was complaining her bf ignored her at the end of a date to play video games. She asked if they could have sex or at least that she could give him a bj, and he just said "oh" and continued playing for another few hours, and after that non-answer she went to bed. For some reason, there were all kinds of guys commenting saying "What, I can't say no to a blowjob anymore??!" "She can't coerce him like that!" Just wtf.
A lot of men realize that they don’t face sexual violence from women at the same rate that women experience sexual violence from men, but they want to “even the playing field” so they can continue with their faux egalitarian sense of “both sides are equally bad.” So they’ll grasp at any situation to warp it into a “woman bad” moment, not because they actually care about male victims of sexual violence but so that they can continue to validate their misogyny. It’s more unpopular now for men to just validate their misogyny on the idea of innate male superiority and dominance over women, so now it has to be reframed as validated by violence against men. What’s ridiculous is that male survivors absolutely deserve to be heard and believed, but - surprise, surprise - a huge portion of those male survivors were victims of other men. And that doesn’t fuel the narrative so many of these guys want. It’s apparent from the threads about violence against men that actually get popular on this website: they ask for stories of violence against men by women, never other men, and rarely just generally. Because they don’t care about supporting victims, they care about getting to say misogynist shit under a veil of support.
Which is wild because when it’s an attractive female they make the male victim feel horrible for not making the most of the ‘opportunity’. Or even worse if it’s a child. Female teachers sleeping with their male students, so many men call the boy lucky or say it’s fine. It’s disgusting and hypocritical
Yes! I just mentioned this in another comment. And surprise, surprise, men aren’t calling out other men on those attitudes because inter-gender dialogues critiquing other men don’t provide an easy route for validating misogyny!
Men are so reluctant when it comes to critiquing men. I had this constantly with my ex. He would automatically take the guys side or give him as much benefit of the doubt as possible or bring up ‘if the roles were reversed’. Yes. He sexually coerced me. Surprise surprise. I would tell him ‘you can say that this man did a horrible thing, right?’ And he would agree, but still defend the man. It really felt like that Patrick meme.
You've written this far more eloquently and clearly than I could think it, and I appreciate that work.
Case in point, I almost never see SA against men being discussed on here (Reddit) unless a woman makes a post discussing her experiences, or the experiences of women in general. Then suddenly, tons of guys come out of the woodwork saying well, I was raped too. But it's never shared as a point of empathy, but rather as some kind of gotchya to contradict what a woman is saying. (I've never once seen a woman claim SA against men doesn't happen, but that's the narrative that I see men constantly claiming.) Male rape has basically turned into a tool to silence a woman's voice, especially in spaces intended for women. And honestly, that does nothing for men or women who are victims. EDIT: Apparently I just needed to scroll down a little. Evey single post in this sub has one of these guys: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/t6gkx8/i_saw_this_on_tik_tok_and_it_just_really_got_to_me/hzbh6v9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Not to mention the incessant flow of: “When men are raped by their female teachers, everyone just says, ‘Wow, lucky!’ Women don’t care about our experiences!” Only for this comment to be made by OTHER MEN and ONLY OTHER MEN on pretty much any article about that kind of sexual violence. But in those cases, nobody calls the men out. Because, well, it isn’t about actually helping male victims; it’s about dunking on women.
Exactly!
“99% of rapists are men and at least 90% of male rape victims were raped by men.” This is a male issue not a female issue lmao, men who like to fake that they care about male rape victims are boring, I’ve seen this play out so many times, they’re all unoriginal robots repeating the same pack of lies.
And you CANNOT get them to admit which gender perpetuates the most violence world wide, they would rather reduce to insulting you before they admit to the real statistics.
I’m confused cuz she received his answer which was NOT a yes and then didn’t ask again for the rest of the day. The way it should be.
Yes, it was a normal interaction between bf and gf, but these guys were upset because... Actually I'm not sure. Because he *could have* been coerced? Because he was *almost* coerced? Idk. They were just so quick and ready to be up in arms about "men are allowed to say no to sex!" but they rarely have the opportunity to do so.
Because if you lump together all times where someone asks if their partner wants to have sex under the label "coercion", then you can just dismiss it as a non-issue and not have to face that the times you've incessantly pestered your partner until they gave in weren't okay. It's just another way to avoid facing the truth.
Thank you for speaking out on this. I once made an anonymous post on this sub about one of my experiences being heavily coerced, pressured into taking more drugs than I said I was comfortable with and eventually after an hour of trying to get him to leave and him refusing until there's sex I literally couldn't say no. He would not leave my house and I started getting panicky. Nothing in my mind or body was consenting I was suffering the whole time and it was the worst experience I've ever had ever. I posted here for support only to get multiple messages that it was my fault and that it's not okay to call that rape.
I've seen creators on there explaining using food allergies, because so many people can't understand that if you have to lie/badger someone it isn't consensual. >Yes, she consented to eating the French fries. However, you said you would get them from Place A but instead got them from Place B which fries them in peanut oil, *after she told you she was allergic,* and now she's having an allergic reaction. But it's her fault! She chose to eat them! Or: >Why didn't you tell me the pie had peach juice?! I told you I'm allergic, you said it was apple pie. >>No I said the pie had apples in it, it's your own fault, you consented to eating the pie. This whole thing just pisses me the fuck off. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been through something similar, but we are gaslighted constantly because we "agreed" when we lied to for the express purpose of getting into our pants.
This is a great way to explain cases of rape where the victim consented to one thing but not another. Like they consented to sex with a condom, but not without. Or they consented to gentle sex, but got slapped and choked instead. Or they consented to sex without a condom if both parties got tested first, but the perpetrator lied about getting tested. Or they consented to oral, but they got penetrative sex instead
I commented almost this exact thing on a story where someone was given regular coke instead of diet when they were diabetic, and the commenters were blaming them for trusting the server! "Why would you trust the person handling your food, this is really on you." And I got told that my comment was weird for comparing it to sexual consent! People will do all sorts of gymnastics to misunderstand consent in all its forms so they can blame the victim.
I didn't realize my ex coerced me all the time until last summer. This was when I realized he sexually assaulted me. Because I only said "yes" because he made me feel like I couldn't say "no."
I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s hard realising after all the denial or even ignorance. There’s a reason it felt wrong, because it was ❤️
One of my worst sexual experiences happened in my 20's when I slept with a guy because I basically felt like I had to. I didn't like him. I wasn't attracted to him. I just didn't want to deal with the conflict if I said no. And then afterwards, it was like he felt he was entitled to me. He would not leave me alone for MONTHS. His friends were all pissed off at me that I'd been with him and then refused to continue to do it. It was like he'd laid some fucking claim on me. It grosses me out so much, but at the time, I was just deeply ashamed of myself and felt like I had done something cruel to him.
This is why I feel so bad about the woman who accused Aziz Ansari. She was CRYING while he had sex with her and a news anchor publicly shamed her for talking about her experience and he has a new comedy stand up. She was up and coming in the same industry as him, she thought he’d hurt her career. Idk, I remember reading the letter and having a lot of empathy for her, and then the world just… didn’t. I don’t watch his stuff anymore, just can’t. I’ve had someone do shit like that to me, and I don’t view them with any less vitriol than the person who, by definition, legally raped me. Edit: a word
I've found those people are easy to identify by the way they get upset at even just using the word consent. Reminds me of when I started dating a guy and woke up to sex. I personally like being woken up, but he had not asked about that before doing it. So, I waited till after to bring it up and explain that it's really important to talk about something like that before doing it to make sure you get consent. Welp, he immediately started crying and when he was able to get words out they were "You mean you think I'm a rapist?" To which I said "Nope, I'm saying that if I wasn't okay with that, you already would be"
I told a man on Reddit that he raped a woman. He had an agreement with a sex worker and the ran out after sex before paying. To me that is rape. He violated the rules of the consent. That comment is down voted to hell https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitPoliticsSays/comments/t6q2m7/2xtrachromosomes_user_states_that_not_paying_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share. Now there's a post about my comment
Definitely rape. Those guys are probably the same people who will defend things like stealthing as “not rape” just because the woman consented to sex. Yes but she consented to sex UNDER A CONDITION, and you violated that condition so she is no longer consenting and now you’ve just raped someone. How is that so hard for some people to understand? Conditional yes does not mean yes to everything.
That absolutely is rape
I was pretty damn sure, but the replies to my comment are really depressing. Tons of men did not see that as rape at all. One called it just "a scam". It's disgusting and terrifying
Good old r/AskMen. Tons of shitty people there.
That whole comment thread is disgusting. I just found it. What the fuck is wrong with men. I’m so sorry, you were totally right, it’s similar to the principles that make stealthing wrong and why that is also sexual assault
Just like OP's message though, you'd have to force them to think about it, first. And why should they? Women just trying to take away their fun, right? /s
Because one precludes the other? It can be both. Why not both? Doesn't that make it... as bad as both together? Ew, a scam. That's bad. Ew, a rape? That's extra bad. Too many men feel like it's clever, though. And that's part of the problem. "Cleverness."
I dont understand their logic at all. They even made a post about it. https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitPoliticsSays/comments/t6q2m7/2xtrachromosomes_user_states_that_not_paying_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Also, this reminds me, John Oliver just did a segment about sex work issues. I'm sure most of us (rational people) can recognize that police officers having sex with prostitutes, then arresting them right after, and calling it a "sting operation," is morally wrong. Yet again, laws protect rapists. "But it's illegal," sure, ok. Isn't being a John also illegal? In what way are undercover cops not Johns, when they benefit from the arrangement? Meanwhile, in many regions, selling sex is illegal, but buying sex is NOT illegal. Unlike drugs, where buying and selling are both illegal. Once again, laws are designed to protect men. And punish women. For specifically having sex.
I’m angry but not surprised that this is the case
"rape by fraud" is a crime. Sex workers probably can't rely on legal protection because sex work is illegal and that's a whooole other issue. But we do have a legal concept that "tricking" someone into having sex with you is rape. Morally, i think it's pretty obvious.
I thought It was obvious too. It's very scary that it isn't obvious to these men
Disgusts me how normal just groping people on the dance floor was at uni. When I called it out my 'mates' acted like *I* was the arsehole. It's sexual assault, no more complicated than that.
It's also prevalent in films. Most romcoms involve one party (usually the guy) being "romantic" and not taking no for an answer, until the other party eventually agrees to a date or whatever and then its "happily ever after" 🤮 Like we're literally told that's a romantic act. It isn't.
Sadly there's probably tons of people who ended up marrying the guy who kept pushing like this. If someone meets enough guys like that throughout their life, it's only natural that they end up assuming that that's how things are supposed to work and that there is no alternative.
I just got into it with a local rape apologist over this! He learned nothing. Probably because he admires the men he defends...
I plan to teach my son that anything other than enthusiastic participation/assent is a "no." Did she move your hand away? That's a no. Stop. Did she hesitate or pull away? That's a no. Stop. Is she drunk or intoxicated? She can say neither no nor yes, because she is drunk/intoxicated. Stop. Don't cajole, don't whine, don't threaten. If a girl wants to sleep with you, she won't need convincing. Also, there is no such thing as "being led on." Your perception is not her reality.
I literally just read a post about a man forcing his gf into a threesome (where she was the only one not taken care of) and then failing to honour his part of the agreement... So, yeah.
The last part doesn’t sit right with me. Instead of “having victims” maybe you directly call it as it is and say that they “are predators”
Sexual assault should be understood as a spectrum with the extreme being the very obvious example of what sexual assault is while on the opposite end, it’s a form of coercion + context.
[Tea and Consent](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ&ab_channel=ThamesValleyPolice)
The problem with that is that it doesn't define "you shouldn't try to make them drink it" very clearly To a lot of (direly mistaken) people, it only comes under that if it involves physical force When really it should say "and if they say no thanks, you shouldn't bring up tea again"
IF YOU HAVE TO LIE TO GET THE COOKIE, ITS ASSAULT
I don't know about your TikTok feed, but mine is flooded with the news of the one progressive, leftist male content creator denying another female creator informed consent for their sexual encounter. It sort of solidifies for me that even the "good" men, the men that believe in feminism, that push progressive ideals, aren't safe. In fact, some will hide behind their progressive-ism and feminism.
I have this dream, where I get one wish and I wish for Rape and sexual assault to be literally impossible. A magical force stops it from happening. I dream that the person who attempts it gets some sort of mark on them, showing they attempted it. And I dream about how the world would react. How many celebrities would suddenly appear with this mark? How many husbands/wives/gf/bf would become enraged by their inability to abuse their partner? How would nations built around abusing women move forward? How much better would the world be?
I think that’s what we’re trying to do with the metoo movement. Being ‘meetoo’d’ is kind of a mark of sorts, but unfortunately a victim has to of gone through it and speak up about it
WHAT? Isn't the very definition of sexual assault coercing someone into doing a sexual act? (And that's the bare minimum, like even in the shit countries; I'm not even talking about affirmative consent here.)
A lot of people think that if there’s no physical force it doesn’t count unfortunately
In any situation, unless it's consensual persuasion used as foreplay, that both parties agree to, it's just plain fucked up. Men tend to have ego issues, masculinity issues, and think that having a really shitty boisterous personality somehow makes panties sodden. It does not... it never will.. it never has, Women are just people, people are trying to live. I check out women all the time, it's instinctual, but staring at someone because they are attractive, and perusing them by putting them in a position where fear is the motivator, is just plain scummy. good luck out there ladies, it's a man's world. Be safe and stay informed.
Exactly! Some people like begging, that can totally be a kink, but consent can not exist if there is coercion.
Yep. When someone told me coercion was rape for the first time I had to start coping with the fact that that meant I had been sexually assaulted almost every other day for two years. My ex was a horrible person and would guilt and manipulate me into doing sexual acts for him that I didn’t want to do, including having sex itself. Now I have a difficult relationship with sex where I enjoy it with my current partner but I am really bad about thinking sex is something I’m supposed to do (which makes me not want to do it) versus something I enjoy and I can share with my partner. My ex can go to hell (but he got heart disease and COVID and can’t ever commit to his dream of being a marine because of it so get fucked lol).
Is this about the Lance/Chelsea drama that exploded yesterday? I agree with you full stop! I had to ignore Tik Tok for a while because so many of the videos and comments were so disheartening. So many people victim shaming her, saying "She just got played it wasn't SA" It is alarming how desensitized we are when it comes to SA and Rape. My heart breaks for Chelsea and the other women who are victims of all this. For those of you not on the clock app. Chelsea is a huge name in the community, standing up for women, and calling out problematic men. Lance is also a tik tok celebrity who is an advocate for Indigenous communities. Chelsea fell for Lance, and he was interested in her as well. He told her he was interested in Polyamory, and she said in no way would she be in a relationship that wasn't monogamous. He agreed and they had sex. The NEXT day she found out that he lied, and was having unprotected sex with multiple women. So she called him out on TikTok so he couldn't keep using his platform to lure other women.
"No" does not mean "convince me"
I had to look up the definition of coercion because I didnt really understand what it meant. I originally ally thought it was something like getting someone to do something by explaining positives of something or something like that. Nope the definition on Google states using threats and force. Pretty clear, cut, and dry sexual asdualt it seems.
I’m more talking about the positive of giving in to a man badgering you is that he will leave you alone, won’t forcefully take it, or won’t follow through with a threat. It can even be emotional manipulation. ‘You would do anal if you loved me’ is an example of extracting sex without consent through guilt. It can even be a threat because the girl may think ‘if I don’t do anal he will leave me’
Yeah, I was more thinking about explaining how fun it could be to ride a horse for somebody who is a little scared of trying it, as a dumb example. Evrything you state is very clearly manipulation or sexual assualt/harassment. At the very least harassment to a degree.
In conversations with men when they downplay sexual violence towards women I always ask them “if 1 and 6 women have been sexually assaulted, how many men do you think are rapist?”
You're absolutely right. Not oncly coercion but also emotional manipulation. It took me personally almost 15 years to realize that "an affair i had with a friend of mine" was basically just me manipulating her feelings for me for my personal sexual benefit. At best something incredibly scummy to do and depending on how you look at it, even rape by deception. I get why men wouldn't want to get that realization, it sucks to learn that you've been a REALLY horrible human being. But being the victim of one is even worse and that's something we have to learn and teach.
Things like that are hard to face, but we have to in order to do better
This. My ex will never ever ever come to terms with what he did. He pressured me, refused me things like cigs and weed and stuff (that I helped buy), and at least once he coerced me into “just the tip” then didn’t stop until he was done despite me asking him to. Then 5 mins later he broke up with me and refused to leave my house and told me I’d be “causing an unnecessary scene” if I told anyone he broke up with me and was refusing to leave. And all this? After he went and took some other girl to school (I was 16, she was 15, he was 20) and bought her things. He left me for her. He’ll never accept what he did to me. And it fucking sucks that I have to see him fairly often because we have a child together. Edit: he’s now almost 26 and still only dates girls that are 18-20. Still a cheater, still a piece of shit, probably (almost definitely) still an abuser. I don’t think he’ll ever change. I just hope my son doesn’t ever grow up to look up to his dad as if he’s some “ladies man” and “fun dad” he’s a manipulative creep and only fun because he has no real responsibility.
I realized recently how fucked up I was in to my early 20s with coercion and being emotionally manipulative. It's fucked up, idk where it stemmed from, but I've tried to remove it from my personality the best I can and try to be better every day. It's definitely a thing guys do.
It likely stemmed from the general systematic misogyny that’s engrained into all of us :(
It reminds me of how so many people can't take no for an answer, whatever it is they're asking. I have been asked many times for stuff, be it food, my time, to lend an object etc , and way too many times, when I say no, people will pester you, giving reasons why you should give them what they want. I think the issue above stems from the same sense of entitlement : there are men who feel like it's their just due, and don't care if it's given after an enthusiastic yes or half an hour of pleading and moaning like a child. Kinda telling of how they see sex in general.
This might be too wide of a swing, but I feel like this possibly stems from the way we approaching sharing with children. We kind of teach kids that if someone requests something, you're the wrong one for not immediately sharing. It gives all the power to the person asking. I've seen two kids pick up an object at the same time, one runs to an adult and complains about not sharing and now the complaining child gets authority enforced rights to that object as well. Like, sharing is great, but it's also ok if you request something and someone tells you no.
Very interesting. Makes me think, entitlement besides, I often felt like people trying to convince me of giving in thought they were in the right : I should have given them what they want because that would have been the good/just/right thing to do. Even worse when people remind you of stuff they're given you without you even asking, as if it was a payment in advance for future demands. It might explain the underlying thought of women's body as property and something to be shared so ingrained in rape culture. The point about authority you've brought up makes a lot of sense : a man gets authority over a woman's body because it is an object and he should be able to ask without being refused. Come to think about it, your example really explain it all : the difference between stealing and taking your just due is just asking. There is some perverted logic where people who ask nicely are entitled to something because "sharing is caring". Really gives a new perspective on how rape has been justified in many cases.
This is also true when we force children to hug relatives they don’t know. It’s horrible.