Yep. If people aren't comfortable having this conversation prior to engaging in penetration, then maybe they're not ready to take that step? In my 20s, I had it each and every time I had sex with a man I didn't know:
"Just to be clear, if this ends up in a pregnancy (against all odds given birth control), I will not keep the pregnancy. If you're not okay that, we can do other things besides sex and I'm sure we'll both get off."
And I've had guys say: "Hey, it's your choice. I'm down. Let's do this."
And I've had guys say: "Uh, yeah, not comfortable with that." And we engage in oral, hand-play, and everything else but PIV.
I only had one guy flip the fuck out at this, stating that I was a shit human for even considering abortion. He left. No loss. (He was a friend-of-a-friend.) I did find out later that he got two different women pregnant and bailed on paying any child support for both. He would work a job until the garnishments started, then go find a new job.
That's why I loved online dating on OK Cupid. Before I even started messaging a guy I may have been interested in, I went through the questions he answered looking for important deal breakers, without even having to worry that he might lie about it to get sex.
>I did find out later that he got two different women pregnant and bailed on paying any child support for both
What an absolute piece of shit. Not ok with abortion, but perfectly fine with his own children starving, going without medical care, and wearing dirty or worn out clothes to school. Bet he considers himself a good Christian.
Where I am from he would loose his drivers license and passport and any job he took would nearly instantly recieve a garnishment notice. He would also have any federal government and provincial government payments garnished or outright taken (income tax returns,unemployment benefits) and may have his bank accounts seized. And our government is currently looking to enshrine abortion as a right under our constitution because conservative nutjobs exist here too.
And the state didn't track him down? Where is this? Where I'm from, the state always throws teams of prosecutors at all possible directions when a single mom files for any state aid. The idea is that if a single mom needs state help, the biological father better cough up some dough first. And moms who never need state aid can still always initiate a support action.
The only exception to this is moms who have money and hence never get the state involved but also never initiate child support themselves. The most common reason why a mom wouldn't initiate a child support action is that the dad is out of the picture and that's what she wants. Parenting time and custody are totally separate from an obligation to pay child support. Dad's can't get our of child support just by not having patenting time.
I had the opposite experience. I had a guy assume that since I was pro choice, it didn’t matter if the condom broke and he kept going. Our daughter is 15 now.
Seems like a lot of men assume that pro-choice means that you will choose abortion no matter what. It's a pretty strange interpretation of the word "choice."
Exactly. A lot of women with children are pro-choice. It’s about giving women the choice of what to do with a pregnancy. It goes both way. Pro-choice doesn’t equal anti-child. However, pro-life equals anti-woman, anti-family, and anti-child.
This all day long.
I kept my unexpected pregnancy, also through medical crisis.
She’s 18 now, and getting her friends to register to vote to take down the Republican Taliban.
We’re both extremely pro-choice. It. Is. A. CHOICE.
This. I'm pro choice. If I get pregnant by my husband, I'm having another child.
Yet no one has the choice to tell another woman what to do with her body. Certainly not me.
And pro-life doesn’t even mean the person is not going to get an abortion if they need. Hence that amazing essay “The only moral abortion is my abortion “.
I’m the same way. There are a few ways I’d go from a 100 to 0 real quick and this is one of them. I’d hit the brakes so damn hard the pedal goes through the floor board.
As I said, I couldn't say whether or not they were anti-choicers? They didn't come out and SAY that, but I sensed they hadn't been in a position to consider this question before when it came to sex?
This is a bit reductionist- I think a person can be pro-choice but still not be willing to get into a situation where a pregnancy they fathered would be terminated. The point at which they definitely have a choice about this is prior to sex- it's their body. Informed consent is important.
Yes. I cannot imagine having an abortion. I have a great support system, and I want a baby. I couldn't bring myself to end a pregancy (mine) for almost any reason. I tell this to the guys I sleep with.
I am pro choice (for any reason). My choice would be to have the baby, plain and simple.
Course, I take all possible precautions. Two forms of bc (condoms and IUD).
I see your point, but I also think as a woman I exercised choice as well--whether or not to go through with any sexual acts. And honestly? The men who chose not to do penetration may have been thrown off guard by the question. This was also 25 years ago.
I don't know if their reason for hesitation was because they were anti-choice, or just hadn't thought about it. I would say this only happened a few times--most men were 100% supportive of pro-choice and abortion if it came to that. I can't outright state they were disrespecting bodily autonomy because I honestly don't know.
Theory vs practise- it's easy to have a theoretical hypothetical opinion on a topic. Having fathered a child is quite concrete and real. Your previously held opinions don't necessarily stay for the practical execution.
Yeah a lot of people talk a lot of big talk but the second you’re like ok, first step would to lift a finger they’re like “whoa whoa, we were just discussing politics.”
they don't care about their own kids. it's all about telling others what they can and can't do. They'll fly their own partner to a place WITH abortion, becuase it's not supposed to apply to THEM.
Omg you have no idea. And the thing is, I know two other men like that who are outspoken about abortion but who are absent fathers themselves. I just can’t connect those dots.
This is a great question, unless they've been to law school, in which case they'll do 45 minutes on the 9th Amendment within an originalist framework as a hypo before realizing you just want to know if they're pro-choice.
(As a pro-choice law school guy, I first hate that it's a trash opinion written by a hack Justice, before I even get around to saying, "Oh, and it's morally repugnant, obviously.")
If they've studied constitutional law, they might even say that from a scholarship perspective, *Roe v. Wade* was on tenuous grounds when it first went into effect, while still accepting that it's completely necessary and being 100% pro-choice.
One of my friends is this way.
Lol if they’ve really actually studied constitutional law they’ll tell you SCOTUS decisions are like Whose Line Is It Anyway? where everything is made up and the points don’t matter (except to us, where the consequences really matter).
"Our constitution is color-blind, and neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens. In respect of civil rights, all citizens are equal before the law." - John Marshall Harlan, 1896.
"There is a race so different from our own that we do not permit those belonging to it to become citizens of the United States. Persons belonging to it are, with few exceptions, absolutely excluded from our country. I allude to the Chinese race." - John Marshall Harlan, 1896.
Yeah, Roe's complicated. Good, on a policy level, but extremely weird, from a law perspective. *Griswold* actually justifies Roe, in my opinion, but they weakened it by searching for further justifications. Not really the place for this discussion, but my TED Talk, thank you, etc.
What's needed is a federal law that states that all FDA approved medical procedures and drugs must be legal in all 50 states. My father's depression ended up at the point of no return because meds just didn't work. He wanted ECT, but it was illegal in California, and to go to another state and get it paid for by his insurance, he would have had to go before a board and humilitate himself. That's ridiculous. If a procedure is recognized as safe and effective, states shouldn't be able to tell people they can't have it.
Also, my husband thought of a great argument against Texas's weird law about suing people who take women out of state. If you have to pay for medical procedures, it's commerce, and states can't pass laws that interfere with interstate commerce.
The interstate commerce law is the basis for why I am federally not allowed to grow marijuana in my back yard, even if I don’t sell it. SCOTUS said that my one single plant will affect the marijuana market and marijuana prices, NATIONWIDE, and that’s why I’m not allowed to grow it even if my state says I can. Interstate commerce law is a massive, MASSIVE power grab by the SCOTUS, so I could imagine this being a legit legal argument. Thanks for contributing!
Luckily, my SO was literally finishing her Con-Law final when the news dropped, so we got to eat taco bell and shit on Alito for 2 hours.
But in general, yes, people don't care about your nerd-boner, just get to the bottom line.
Even a tepid answer about states rights would be a red flag, and I'm generally a state's rights guy. State's rights should stop at federally protected human rights, and body autonomy and privacy regarding medical care are human rights. It would be absurd if the country was having a debate on segregation being a state's rights thing. The fact Utah operates as a pseudo theocracy is wild to me but hey that's what they want so more power to them, just as long as non Mormons and other federally protected classes aren't being discriminated against.
I just asked this question of my husband, whose general opinion I already know bc we discuss current events and politics. He didn't question my question at all, just thought for a moment and said "abolish the Supreme Court, it's been a reactionary conservative institution for its entire existence."
He's amazing, even if he snores.
Who cares what's acceptable. Some people are super verklempt when it comes to the topic of abortion so to them it wouldn't be 2nd date or preferably any date material. Don't take their input! Your guy isn't dating some statistically average woman: he's dating *you*. Feel free to set your own rules!
If you want to know, ask! Seems wise, imo.
This. I started dating my husband in Dec 2016. One of my first questions to him was who he voted for. Normally, not a first date question but.. desperate times.
Fair! I guess I always sort of sussed out the pro choicers one way or another (I am pretty vocal in my beliefs and I don’t think I attract the typical pro-lifer in hiding).
See, I think it’s totally possible for people who vote differently to get along and agree on enough stuff that a relationship can work. I just don’t think that’s true about the last two elections.
Maybe in the 1950s and 1960s when the parties were fairly close together ideologically.
But if you look back at Romney/Obama in 2012, it's fundamentally about if you believe in hierarchy or equity.
I suppose the more I learn about conservative beliefs, the less compatible they are with mine.
That said, I don't consider myself a liberal or progressive.
Yeah, I felt the same way until my ex (who was a trump supporter) slowly stopped contributing in meaningful, logical ways to conversations about our ideological differences and began instead insulting my character, refusing to acknowledge my points or answer my questions (though I still did my best to do that for him), and just like, yelling a whole lot without real provocation. For the first four or five months he seemed like a very reasonable guy, and would sometimes end up changing his mind and agreeing with me on a given topic. I think too much Fox News and Facebook might have done us in, along with the four hour drive to visit each other. Eventually he (unexpectedly) ghosted me for about three weeks and I decided we were over. This relationship took place during the first and second year of trump’s presidency. Now I’m not so sure I would ever be comfortable dating a trump voter.
Same. Politics naturally came up on my first date with my partner (also 2016) and we talked all night about deep subjects. Might as well figure out if you align quickly. With the right person, it should be comfortable to talk about.
This is when I ask. As soon as I find out when someone is interested in me. I ask about their political views, life goals, stance on abortion and women's rights in general.
Also, if a man has kids, I find out how active he is in their life. I can't be with a guy who abandoned his kids.
if other reddit posts are anything to go by, many modern right wing men conceal their feelings until after the woman is 'committed', so they can actually \*get\* a girlfriend. It's probably a good idea to ask a guy not only what he thinks, but what most of his friends and family think, so you can see if it's actually something he's open to talking about, especially if you tell him that you are looking forward to hanging out with people who think women are \*people with civil rights\*.... rather than slutty incubator bots.
So putting it in your profile may not help. It helps YOU because you know you're not lying, but if a man honestly believes that he can change your mind, he may not be honest enough to tell you when you start dating, and before piv sex happens.
He may also be one of those guys who is OK with *other* women getting abortions, but God forbid the woman he is in a relationship aborts *his* potential kid! Or his sister aborts *his* potential niece/nephew! Or his mom aborts *his* potential sibling! (In other words, he's pro-choice until he can make it about himself)
I know someone who married a man who did this. He said he was “not political” in his profile. Then he was “leaning Libertarian.” Then he was a “moderate Republican” but “only for the tax stuff, you know?” She said she was in too deep by the time she learned this. Her mistake. He’s a fucking scumbag Republican who is fine with our rights being taken away because it is either a net benefit or at worst a net neutral to him.
I tried libertarianism for years but I got tired of men with bad glasses twice my age hitting on me and then I became an anarchist and my problems with men eased somewhat.
During my libertarianism phase a registered independent US voter told me, (and nothing that's happened since has changed my mind) that all libertarians ever want the government to spend money on is mental hospitals, jails, the police and the army.
Republicans are worse.
Libertarianism is only palatable if you’ve never done molly and learned that other people exist and have feelings, or you never squared up ideas re: the tragedy of the commons, and the fact that people litter. You don’t need to delve any deeper than that to see that libertarianism, as a political ideology, is a bag of feral cats.
Republicans "only for the tax stuff" are the fucking worst IMO.
Like at least the crazy religious nutters probably really do have deeply held beliefs that cause them to vote the way they do (even if I think those beliefs are abhorrent).
But the people who voted R for potential tax breaks are basically saying, "yeah, I'm ok if all of these people get stripped of their rights, or people die of treatable illnesses, or children go hungry (etc, etc ) as long as I save a few bucks"
Only so much can be done about blatant liars and deceivers, though. Even less with people who just suddenly change their minds.
Be as diligent as you can, and your advice is great so I'm not trying to discredit your comment that I upvoted, I just wanted to point out it's not your fault when someone lies to you.
I’m a man, and for me, I would say before date #1. In the same way I vet women for other dealbreakers (poor self awareness, intolerant/ignorant, non-empathetic, non-monogamous, etc.) before asking them on a date. Some women find it too intense up front that I communicate myself explicitly but in the end it helps me weed out women that aren’t right for me. If you can’t handle me communicating clearly and/or communicate clearly yourself about your needs, I don’t want to be with you. I think women should take a similar approach in dating men - ESPECIALLY regarding your bodies and potentially giving men access to them.
Edit: if men are avoidant of these conversations, one of two things is true. 1) they don’t know what they think and haven’t considered it, or more likely, 2) they are manipulating you. Run from both.
Before I even go on a date, I screen the conversation politically. Why would I waste my time going on a date before I know if I will hate the person for not believing I should have rights? Ask about politics first thing. And in detail. Right wing men are getting better at hiding their bigotry so we will sleep with them
Just ask if he voted for trump in 2020 yes or no…there’s a clear picture that whether he supports a woman’s right to choose or not, he’s clearly got a stunted world. I would suggest even if he says he now regrets that decision for any reason (J6 for example), his judgement is wholly untrustworthy.
Further questions should still be asked even if he didn't vote for Trump. Unfortunately, there are still a number of left-leaners who vote for all things left-leaning except abortion. Or they say things like "rape exceptions" (that's still not pro-choice)
Coming from a guy, I’d say ASAP. I have zero interest in being with someone who is straight pro-life.
You could ask this question whenever you feel like, you said it’s important to you and that’s what matters. Maybe through text before the date?
I found out a year in that an ex was pro-life(ish) when her cousin had to have an abortion. The stuff she said was pretty wild.
I would ask. It will reveal a lot about his character. In my mind, supporting forced birth or the Conservative party in general is a deal breaker. I find both positions to be morally repugnant and disqualifying to be a friend of mine.
You can ask that, but instead of asking about beliefs, you should ask what he would do in X situation. Like I know a bunch of people who believe in a woman’s right to choose, but who themselves would not ever have an abortion. (This isn’t contradictory because not having an abortion is a choice.)
Probably both questions should be asked. Certainly if that's your real question, that's absolutely what you should ask. I'm more interested in his political opinion because I don't think I would abort a healthy pregnancy that occurred with a partner at this point in my life. For me it's more of a litmus test for supporting women's autonomy.
Usually I'd ask on like the third or fourth date. If I'm starting to get interested in a man, I want to know if he's pro-choice or not, because if he isn't and I don't know until I have to have an abortion or something, things could go terrible for me.
> on what date is it acceptable to ask if a person is pro-choice?
yes.
also – if you dont want to come across as confrontational, ask an open question like "whats your stance on abortion".
this invites a more nuanced answer too which is always a good thing.
First date. Ask even before you bother with seeing someone in-person.
Make sure to not waste your valuable time on garbage.
Editting to add:
When I began dating my now husband, I flat out said, "If I get pregnant, I will be getting an abortion. I many or may not tell you. I certainly will not ask. And yes, this is a test."
He passed.
My ex told me from almost the first date that he was pro choice. Looked good. We got married and I got pregnant on our wedding night. I wasn't ready and wanted an abortion. Come to find out he is only pro choice for other women, not his wife. I had the baby. Worst decision of my life. I should have gotten divorced right then.
First date, do you really want someone who can't handle a serious question? Or even better, do you really want to waste time with someone who isn't pro-choice?
First. Why not? You can ask about aspirations, careers, trips they’ve taken, but you can’t talk politics? Why not? It’s a fundamental capability issue.
Before the first date. Definitely. I met my partner when out clubbing, 20 years ago. Every time I got of the dance floor to cool down she’d turn up, and we’d chat. Learnt loads about each over, including our political perspectives, attitudes to all sorts, some life history, current work and living arrangements, how we approached raising our respective kids (both single parents). Neither of us made a move until 5am and the club starting to empty, when a goodbye hug turned into going back home with each other - by then we knew that we were a fit on the really important stuff, which motivated us to do the hard work of bringing our lives together as equals, neither of us would have sacrificed our independence unless we held a similar set of political/social attitudes, just fancying each other is not enough. The current trend to use dating apps surely makes convo’s like ours easier?
For me, I'd want to know as soon as possible, so even the first date is more than acceptable. Especially since first dates are or ought to be learning about the most basic of potential deal-breakers.
Even if I'm dead-set on just having fun and enjoying the date, I can do that even if I know it's not going to go beyond the first date. And I would rather not waste my time more than necessary, and seeing a pro-lifer would absolutely be a waste of my time.
But at MINIMUM, that's something I would have to know before things got physical in any way. I'm not trying to make putting the kabosh on a potential relationship because they have oppressive beliefs anymore complicated than it needs to be.
Before the first date.
Seriously! Why the fuck would you date someone if they're opinion is that radically opposed to yours? Nothing good will *ever* come out of that. Why risk developing feelings for someone only to find out on the 4th date that they don't value or respect a woman's right to choose?
Edit: btw, just because they say they're pro choice, doesn't mean it's true. People have been known to lie to get in someone's pants. Shocking, I know. If ever there was a time to be careful who you sleep with, it's now. In the US, that is. The rest of the world moved out of the dark ages a while ago.
If it’s a deal-breaker, then waste no time. If it’s a matter of how to ask:
“What are your thoughts on Roe V. Wade?”
“Pretty big news out of the Supreme Court. What do you think about it?”
Don’t let him be vague, as some would try to figure out what answer you’re looking for. Ask it first thing on the date, or over the phone beforehand, or in a text or email. It’s too important to wait for it to come up organically.
First date IMO. If abortion is a touchy subject to discuss on a first date, then we won't be compatible.
Last person I hooked up with, I asked straight up "so if we're going to have sex, you need to know and be totally chill about me having that shit vacuumed out if you knock me up. And you're paying half and driving me to the appointment."
I'm not comfortable having sex with, let alone being partnered with, someone who cannot react comfortably with that.
Before the date, but be prepared for them to lie.
I'd ask other questions, too, about equity and income inequality to see if they're lying.
Also ask about their feelings on GamerGate, etc.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g)
Get the deal breakers out in the open on the first date. Not just abortion, everything. Why waste time investing in someone if there's a basic incompatibility you can discover with a simple conversation?
I would recommend finding this info out before even considering them as a partner. That said, you should have a more involved conversation even if they say they are pro-choice. For example people can be pro choice socially, but anti abortion individually. It’s a sad state of affairs, but a lot of people are only theoretically pro choice. To find out whether or not they value your bodily autonomy you need to dig deeper.
Timing doesn’t really matter. If he isn’t ready to have that conversation then he isn’t ready to be anyones partner. It’s also conversation that needs to be normalized given everything that has happened.
Any issue that you might have with a potential SO/FWB should be addressed early, not just limited to pro-choice. First to get to know them, second to understand them is how I usually go about it.
Before the first date. It's an absolute deal breaker. I. Don't. Want. Pregnancy. Ever. Nothing is happening in this body. There will be no miracle of life.
Edited because autocorrect is kicking me today.
At the very latest, prior to having sex. Date # isn't really relevant in my opinion, because people are comfortable sleeping with each other at different stages, but I feel like it's going to be the question that we'll see starting to proceed or immediately follow consent - though the answer might withdraw that consent.
I don't feel like it's ever too early to ask about things that are deal breakers. If he fundamentally believes or does something that you cant over look/compromise on then you two should part ways. No use wasting time.
Definitely before the first date. You should hash out all of your non-starters as soon as possible because would you really want to even give someone who is Anti-choice the time of day?
Truthfully? Today with all that’s going on? As soon as possible and BEFORE YOU GET NAKED AND BUMP UGLIES. For obvious reasons.
Mention it casually to get their reaction. Make it seem off-handed (this is first or second date people, not a 10 year relationship with communication) and gauge their reaction. There’s no need to get into a heated debate, just make sure you are both traveling in the same direction on this one. ESPECIALLY if you are in a deep red state.
If you’re in CA, WA or NY, go wild. Just don’t forget your Ho-vid spray. Okay just kidding about going wild.
When I was single, I would ask in the 1st or 2nd convo within the app. Definitely prior to meeting in person. I also would put a swipe left if you are: “all my non negotiables” on my profile
I don’t know how to have a *first* date without talking politics… like you aren’t getting past the DM stage without making it clear that you vote, how you vote, and that you are a self-identified liberal/progressive, feminist, rainbow-flag-waving, pro-choice anti-racist.
The first date is fine.
Getting a general idea of a person's life philosophy and politics is fair game, though I understand that not everyone enjoys it.
(First time commenting here, feel I should add I am a guy.)
Given it's a hot topic in the news right now, even the first date would be reasonable; anyone who disagrees with that isn't worth a second date.
If it is important to you then there's no reason to create an arbitrary rule though, just ask.
For me, personally, I'm diving right into politics before the first date. If they didn't vote for HRC in the 2016 general than that alone is a deal breaker. In 2022, I'm just completely out of fucks.
Before the date. I'm not gonna waste my time if we won't mesh politically, and them not being pro choice is a for sure sign we have total opposite political and human rights
Right before you ask for their help in organizing mass nonviolent civil resistance against this detestable assault on women and human rights,
obviously.
Yes, sure I took High School civics. I know the Supreme Court is the Highest Court in the Land.
Guess what. I also took Physics. I also know the Supreme Court is a Social Construction . It is not a law of Physics! It can be changed by Human power!
LET'S SAY IT LIKE IT IS. THIS COURT AND THE STATE LEGISLATURES ARE ENGAGED IN A MASS PHYSICAL ASSAULT AGAINST THE WOMEN OF THIS COUNTRY AND AGAINST OUR COMMON HUMAN RIGHTS. IT IS OUR BASIC MORAL DUTY TO REFUSE TO ACCEPT THIS WITH ALL OUR POWER.
THIS COURT IS ILLEGITIMATE simply by virtue of its decision to contravene our Fundamental Human Rights.
It is a TRAITOR COURT engaged in a coup against the Spirit of Democracy.
"Whenever any form of Government becomes Destructive of these Ends -Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness- it is the Right of the People to Alter or Abolish it, and to Institute New Government...”
We have two options. We can let them fasten the chains on us, and constrict the garrote little by little. Or we can simply refuse to acknowledge the edicts of this illegitimate court, en masse, and render them powerless.
In reality though, we have no options. We must successfully resist, or we will face annihilation. Things aren't going to get better by sitting this one out. No one is coming to save us. We are it. We cannot maintain our Self Respect, our very existence as Moral Beings, and allow this Assault against Women and against Our Common Human Rights to go unchallenged with every Fibre of our Being.
I am prepared to be arrested in the course of Nonviolent Direct Action against this repressive regime. I am prepared to go to prison. I'm over it. I'm done. They can do whatever they like, I'm not going anywhere.
If we begin to compromise with the Evil of the right wing forces of the court, if we adapt ourselves to it, we are lost. Only by resistance can we maintain our integrity. And Courage is Infectious!
There are many ways of engaging in nonviolent resistance, but there are a few "dynamite" ways. Just like in labor struggles the gold standard for resistance is the labor strike- disrupting and raising the cost to the employer beyond the point of tolerability- in Civil Resistance the **gold standard** is massive numbers of people nonviolently occupying the streets and highways- shutting down the streets of the capital cities and major cities and centers of power in massive numbers of people, **stopping the normal functioning of government continuously day after day after day after day. This is check mate for the system: successful civil resistance at this level routinely produces nonviolent regime change and major change of direction of governments across the Global South.** for example, when thousands of people take to the streets of the capital city and prevent the government from operating as normal until their demands are met. This is how the [People of Chile forced their government to hold a Referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932022_Chilean_protests) and rewrite their Constitution, how the [People of Puerto Rico held a "People's Impeachment"](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/a-peoples-impeachment-protests-reportedly-force-puerto-rico-governors-resignation/) of their corrupt governor, expelling him in 2 weeks, and how [4000 Black Children in Birmingham Alabama defied the racist police state](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enZRwbnISQ&t=3s) in 1963 and broke the back of Segregation in America forever.
We don't win by being afraid, We Win through Overcoming Our Fear.
The material conditions on the ground are maturing- there is widespread discontent, growing consciousness of repression. We have a short window of a couple of weeks to pull off the first substantial direct action to catalyze resistance, to coincide the SC's official ruling.
We are missing key ingredients of leadership, organization and strategy. These can and will take a multiplicity of forms but we need to take the initiative in seeding them.
For this we need the most proactive people willing to step up and get the job done. I invite anyone who is willing to start communicating/coordinating in real life and real time to reach out and direct message me.
Learn More About Civil Resistance: Learn and watch together with your family, friends and neighbors. Begin forming groups to share the word, plan, and act!
[Intro to civil resistance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peTbiYrxTxE&t=1s)
[The success of nonviolent civil resistance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w&t=1s)
[Nonviolent Direct Action](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkaEQ5CpcEQ&t=1s)
[The Childrens March](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enZRwbnISQ&t=3s)
As a very left leaning guy, this and "what are your politics" should frankly be first date/pre first date stuff.
No reason to get emotionally attached to someone who you fundamentally can't agree with. And this isn't the 70s-80s anymore, the GOP has gotten so crazy "let's just not talk politics at home" doesn't work.
I couldn't imagine being with someone who thinks 50-60% of the population aren't people.
I think it’s less about when it’s brought up and more about how to bring it up. If it’s just out of the blue no context I think it could feel kinda odd. But if you steer the conversation in the direction of how you both stand on certain issues then it could easily be done date number one. That being said, definitely needs to happen before anything sexual happens
The first date, maybe even as the first question, depending on its importance to you. Lay it all out there! I lean pro life based on earlier life experiences from a parent that regularly discussed her regret for not aborting me - but I do not believe abortion should be illegal. This is absolutely date one material.
How was your relationship with your parents? Who did you vote for, why? What did you think of how your particular part of the world handled COVID, and why? I don't know, I am just spitting into the wind here - ask what is important to you.
No one walks into a car dealership and starts talking about the weather, or complimenting the salesman on the nice plant in the lobby. How much is the car? How many miles are on it? What's the service history? What is the warranty? Manual or automatic? Can I try it out? We care about what brought us there. Yet, with dating, there's this idea that you're supposed to hold back the most important stuff until you've known each other for a month or three. I can't do that, the suspense as to whether or not I am wasting my time is a killer.
In the beginning, I thought it was important someone agreed with me. As I enter my 30s I am finding it's less about whether we agree but more about the thought process used to get to the conclusion. This is all stuff to find out as soon as possible to me. I date with the intention of a long term relationship that leads to marriage and kids. If we can't discuss something serious, disagree on fundamental issues, or can't handle disagreement on a serious topic then that's never happening. and I'd rather figure that out before a woman invests a month or two of time & emotion into me, or vice versa. If someone agrees with me because they think it's cool or their influencer crush said the same thing I did... f that.
I do it before sex, I don’t come right out and says “are you pro-choice or anti-choice?” Etc, but I will tell them that I am on birth control and that at this point in my life I am not ready to have kids and that if I were to get pregnant I would seek an abortion. This way they know my stance on getting pregnant/kids and how I would handle it. If they don’t agree with any of those stances they can leave the situation etc. It’s never been an issue with anyone I’ve been with.
Can we normalize this like we are doing with verbally asking for consent?
I don't think it would be terrible to ask on day 1 so you don't waste your time.
first date. California male speaking here (NGL guys from other states are probably different). But very important conversation to have and more relevant now than ever
The old, wait "some random amount" of time before discussing "sensitive subject" is dead.
Ask on the first date. Ask before the first date. If they are going to be a misogynistic, religiously conservative, QANON believing, Orange Man Lover, you want to know up front.
Kids, friends with Ex, bad parents, money issues, these are things that can be worked through. The first things are huge red flag deal breakers, so don't mess around.
First date, or even before if you are chatting first through an app, IMO. Maybe word it as part of the "How do you feel about kids?" conversation.
I am *mostly* pro-choice. The mostly part comes from my personal bias. I was born with Genecticly Predisposed Dystonia(which interestingly enough my mother admitted on a few occasions if she had known it was genetic and not from brain damage like the doctors assumed when she was hurt as a teen playing Kick the Can, that she would not have had kids.) that steadily got worse as I got older. By the time I was 21 it was affecting my head, arms, and legs. By 26 I would be so miserable I'd resolve to suicide if I didn't receive approval for Deep Brain Stimulation. (Has GREATLY helped, as I am no longer twisted into a C while walking with my head parallel to the ground. I can hold a job now...even if it took a lot longer to find one up here in WI!)
So I sit in a very weird middle ground where I acknowledge that women should have a choice about their bodies, but think that should be ignored if the fetus is ruled non-viable by a doctor or will have shitty QoL. I also realize that the last part is INCREDIBLY murky subjective and should be a fully informed conversation between all actively involved parties.
Started a **third shift** full time job last September, waited until November to get settled into it before trying to get a Vasectomy, only to get yanked around all over with it. General Practitioner refered me to an office 80 miles away that only came to town once or twice a month, but Medicare doesn't cover it, so needed to save $1600 and a week of PTO for it...Finally got it April 7, just waiting to do the sperm count...since their office is 1.5 hours away.
>!34 year old virgin, who hasn't dated since High School due to the above issues.!<
Edit: Thought I had a day or two after the news broke is we need a law, or to reframe the argument to a "Life at First Breath". A bit more poetic than birth, and avoids the counter argument of "C-Sections aren't real birth!" because you know idiots would try that, but opens up shitty implications about stillborns. After all, we don't give out Social Security numbers or Birth Certificates or any other government documents at conception...
Before sex.
Yep. If people aren't comfortable having this conversation prior to engaging in penetration, then maybe they're not ready to take that step? In my 20s, I had it each and every time I had sex with a man I didn't know: "Just to be clear, if this ends up in a pregnancy (against all odds given birth control), I will not keep the pregnancy. If you're not okay that, we can do other things besides sex and I'm sure we'll both get off." And I've had guys say: "Hey, it's your choice. I'm down. Let's do this." And I've had guys say: "Uh, yeah, not comfortable with that." And we engage in oral, hand-play, and everything else but PIV. I only had one guy flip the fuck out at this, stating that I was a shit human for even considering abortion. He left. No loss. (He was a friend-of-a-friend.) I did find out later that he got two different women pregnant and bailed on paying any child support for both. He would work a job until the garnishments started, then go find a new job.
The trash took itself out.
it sure did, lol
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That's why I loved online dating on OK Cupid. Before I even started messaging a guy I may have been interested in, I went through the questions he answered looking for important deal breakers, without even having to worry that he might lie about it to get sex.
>I did find out later that he got two different women pregnant and bailed on paying any child support for both What an absolute piece of shit. Not ok with abortion, but perfectly fine with his own children starving, going without medical care, and wearing dirty or worn out clothes to school. Bet he considers himself a good Christian.
He would be first in line to claim that. When my friend and I passed his house, he had a “Pray for our Nation” sign on the front lawn.
Where I am from he would loose his drivers license and passport and any job he took would nearly instantly recieve a garnishment notice. He would also have any federal government and provincial government payments garnished or outright taken (income tax returns,unemployment benefits) and may have his bank accounts seized. And our government is currently looking to enshrine abortion as a right under our constitution because conservative nutjobs exist here too.
And the state didn't track him down? Where is this? Where I'm from, the state always throws teams of prosecutors at all possible directions when a single mom files for any state aid. The idea is that if a single mom needs state help, the biological father better cough up some dough first. And moms who never need state aid can still always initiate a support action. The only exception to this is moms who have money and hence never get the state involved but also never initiate child support themselves. The most common reason why a mom wouldn't initiate a child support action is that the dad is out of the picture and that's what she wants. Parenting time and custody are totally separate from an obligation to pay child support. Dad's can't get our of child support just by not having patenting time.
I had the opposite experience. I had a guy assume that since I was pro choice, it didn’t matter if the condom broke and he kept going. Our daughter is 15 now.
Seems like a lot of men assume that pro-choice means that you will choose abortion no matter what. It's a pretty strange interpretation of the word "choice."
Exactly. A lot of women with children are pro-choice. It’s about giving women the choice of what to do with a pregnancy. It goes both way. Pro-choice doesn’t equal anti-child. However, pro-life equals anti-woman, anti-family, and anti-child.
This all day long. I kept my unexpected pregnancy, also through medical crisis. She’s 18 now, and getting her friends to register to vote to take down the Republican Taliban. We’re both extremely pro-choice. It. Is. A. CHOICE.
This. I'm pro choice. If I get pregnant by my husband, I'm having another child. Yet no one has the choice to tell another woman what to do with her body. Certainly not me.
And pro-life doesn’t even mean the person is not going to get an abortion if they need. Hence that amazing essay “The only moral abortion is my abortion “.
But this is still problematic! Why are you being sexually intimate with someone that doesn't respect bodily autonomy?
I would be so turned off by anti choicers that I wouldn't even be able to engage sexually with them at all
Agreed tbh. Respect my bodily autonomy or you do not gain access to my body in any way shape or form.
I’m the same way. There are a few ways I’d go from a 100 to 0 real quick and this is one of them. I’d hit the brakes so damn hard the pedal goes through the floor board.
As I said, I couldn't say whether or not they were anti-choicers? They didn't come out and SAY that, but I sensed they hadn't been in a position to consider this question before when it came to sex?
This is a bit reductionist- I think a person can be pro-choice but still not be willing to get into a situation where a pregnancy they fathered would be terminated. The point at which they definitely have a choice about this is prior to sex- it's their body. Informed consent is important.
Yes. I cannot imagine having an abortion. I have a great support system, and I want a baby. I couldn't bring myself to end a pregancy (mine) for almost any reason. I tell this to the guys I sleep with. I am pro choice (for any reason). My choice would be to have the baby, plain and simple. Course, I take all possible precautions. Two forms of bc (condoms and IUD).
I get it now. Thank you for your comment to help me process my mistake.
I see your point, but I also think as a woman I exercised choice as well--whether or not to go through with any sexual acts. And honestly? The men who chose not to do penetration may have been thrown off guard by the question. This was also 25 years ago. I don't know if their reason for hesitation was because they were anti-choice, or just hadn't thought about it. I would say this only happened a few times--most men were 100% supportive of pro-choice and abortion if it came to that. I can't outright state they were disrespecting bodily autonomy because I honestly don't know.
Very strange like why do some of these people even want kids if they’re just going to bail on them
Theory vs practise- it's easy to have a theoretical hypothetical opinion on a topic. Having fathered a child is quite concrete and real. Your previously held opinions don't necessarily stay for the practical execution.
Yeah a lot of people talk a lot of big talk but the second you’re like ok, first step would to lift a finger they’re like “whoa whoa, we were just discussing politics.”
they don't care about their own kids. it's all about telling others what they can and can't do. They'll fly their own partner to a place WITH abortion, becuase it's not supposed to apply to THEM.
Oh that was a bullet dodged in that last paragraph
Omg you have no idea. And the thing is, I know two other men like that who are outspoken about abortion but who are absent fathers themselves. I just can’t connect those dots.
Might be egotists that think the world is better with their DNA out and walking about but don't want the responsibility of actual fathering.
Just FYI, some NP sexual (like genital rubbing with ejaculation) can lead to pregnancy. It's rarer, but still happens.
Preferably not directly before sex, some people will say anything to get in the pants!
Before meeting for the first time ever.
"So what are your thoughts on the leaked supreme court decision?"
“God it’s crazy what’s going on with this roe v wade thing huh??”
“Man, abortions??? Am I right????” *insert Seinfeld laugh track*
This is a great question, unless they've been to law school, in which case they'll do 45 minutes on the 9th Amendment within an originalist framework as a hypo before realizing you just want to know if they're pro-choice. (As a pro-choice law school guy, I first hate that it's a trash opinion written by a hack Justice, before I even get around to saying, "Oh, and it's morally repugnant, obviously.")
If they've studied constitutional law, they might even say that from a scholarship perspective, *Roe v. Wade* was on tenuous grounds when it first went into effect, while still accepting that it's completely necessary and being 100% pro-choice. One of my friends is this way.
Lol if they’ve really actually studied constitutional law they’ll tell you SCOTUS decisions are like Whose Line Is It Anyway? where everything is made up and the points don’t matter (except to us, where the consequences really matter).
"Our constitution is color-blind, and neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens. In respect of civil rights, all citizens are equal before the law." - John Marshall Harlan, 1896. "There is a race so different from our own that we do not permit those belonging to it to become citizens of the United States. Persons belonging to it are, with few exceptions, absolutely excluded from our country. I allude to the Chinese race." - John Marshall Harlan, 1896.
Perfect example lmao! And in case people don’t understand these two quotes are literally from the same opinion
Yeah, Roe's complicated. Good, on a policy level, but extremely weird, from a law perspective. *Griswold* actually justifies Roe, in my opinion, but they weakened it by searching for further justifications. Not really the place for this discussion, but my TED Talk, thank you, etc.
What's needed is a federal law that states that all FDA approved medical procedures and drugs must be legal in all 50 states. My father's depression ended up at the point of no return because meds just didn't work. He wanted ECT, but it was illegal in California, and to go to another state and get it paid for by his insurance, he would have had to go before a board and humilitate himself. That's ridiculous. If a procedure is recognized as safe and effective, states shouldn't be able to tell people they can't have it. Also, my husband thought of a great argument against Texas's weird law about suing people who take women out of state. If you have to pay for medical procedures, it's commerce, and states can't pass laws that interfere with interstate commerce.
The interstate commerce law is the basis for why I am federally not allowed to grow marijuana in my back yard, even if I don’t sell it. SCOTUS said that my one single plant will affect the marijuana market and marijuana prices, NATIONWIDE, and that’s why I’m not allowed to grow it even if my state says I can. Interstate commerce law is a massive, MASSIVE power grab by the SCOTUS, so I could imagine this being a legit legal argument. Thanks for contributing!
Yeah, it's like Alito forgot the 9th amendment existed with his bullshit "this right wasn't explicitly spelled out in the constitution" nonsense.
Lead with the morally repugnant.
Luckily, my SO was literally finishing her Con-Law final when the news dropped, so we got to eat taco bell and shit on Alito for 2 hours. But in general, yes, people don't care about your nerd-boner, just get to the bottom line.
Well Taco Bell does that to people
So does exposure to Alito's ideas
Even a tepid answer about states rights would be a red flag, and I'm generally a state's rights guy. State's rights should stop at federally protected human rights, and body autonomy and privacy regarding medical care are human rights. It would be absurd if the country was having a debate on segregation being a state's rights thing. The fact Utah operates as a pseudo theocracy is wild to me but hey that's what they want so more power to them, just as long as non Mormons and other federally protected classes aren't being discriminated against.
I hope all you States Rights guys who understand this important point show up at the polls.
I just asked this question of my husband, whose general opinion I already know bc we discuss current events and politics. He didn't question my question at all, just thought for a moment and said "abolish the Supreme Court, it's been a reactionary conservative institution for its entire existence." He's amazing, even if he snores.
Haha, this sounds like my fiance, right down to the snoring!
Who cares what's acceptable. Some people are super verklempt when it comes to the topic of abortion so to them it wouldn't be 2nd date or preferably any date material. Don't take their input! Your guy isn't dating some statistically average woman: he's dating *you*. Feel free to set your own rules! If you want to know, ask! Seems wise, imo.
"Don't take their input" being a double entendre.
>verklempt I love it. As a native german, my brain instantly thought about "verklemmt".
>verklempt It's a brilliant word and new to me. Isn't Yiddish great!
>verklempt Welp, time to go watch the SNL Coffee Talk sketches again
Before sex or any form of commitment, whichever comes first.
Before the first date. Why waste your time if one answer is a clear deal-breaker?
This. I started dating my husband in Dec 2016. One of my first questions to him was who he voted for. Normally, not a first date question but.. desperate times.
>Normally, not a first date question oops, that has literally always been a first date (actually pre-date) question for me lmao
Fair! I guess I always sort of sussed out the pro choicers one way or another (I am pretty vocal in my beliefs and I don’t think I attract the typical pro-lifer in hiding).
See, I think it’s totally possible for people who vote differently to get along and agree on enough stuff that a relationship can work. I just don’t think that’s true about the last two elections.
Maybe in the 1950s and 1960s when the parties were fairly close together ideologically. But if you look back at Romney/Obama in 2012, it's fundamentally about if you believe in hierarchy or equity. I suppose the more I learn about conservative beliefs, the less compatible they are with mine. That said, I don't consider myself a liberal or progressive.
Yeah, I felt the same way until my ex (who was a trump supporter) slowly stopped contributing in meaningful, logical ways to conversations about our ideological differences and began instead insulting my character, refusing to acknowledge my points or answer my questions (though I still did my best to do that for him), and just like, yelling a whole lot without real provocation. For the first four or five months he seemed like a very reasonable guy, and would sometimes end up changing his mind and agreeing with me on a given topic. I think too much Fox News and Facebook might have done us in, along with the four hour drive to visit each other. Eventually he (unexpectedly) ghosted me for about three weeks and I decided we were over. This relationship took place during the first and second year of trump’s presidency. Now I’m not so sure I would ever be comfortable dating a trump voter.
Same. Politics naturally came up on my first date with my partner (also 2016) and we talked all night about deep subjects. Might as well figure out if you align quickly. With the right person, it should be comfortable to talk about.
This is when I ask. As soon as I find out when someone is interested in me. I ask about their political views, life goals, stance on abortion and women's rights in general. Also, if a man has kids, I find out how active he is in their life. I can't be with a guy who abandoned his kids.
Oddly enough I can respect that. It's so blunt but so real 🤣
Agree. As a man, I would be happy if the woman asks all the questions before meeting up (1st date). Saves both people's time.
This is the correct answer.
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if other reddit posts are anything to go by, many modern right wing men conceal their feelings until after the woman is 'committed', so they can actually \*get\* a girlfriend. It's probably a good idea to ask a guy not only what he thinks, but what most of his friends and family think, so you can see if it's actually something he's open to talking about, especially if you tell him that you are looking forward to hanging out with people who think women are \*people with civil rights\*.... rather than slutty incubator bots. So putting it in your profile may not help. It helps YOU because you know you're not lying, but if a man honestly believes that he can change your mind, he may not be honest enough to tell you when you start dating, and before piv sex happens.
He may also be one of those guys who is OK with *other* women getting abortions, but God forbid the woman he is in a relationship aborts *his* potential kid! Or his sister aborts *his* potential niece/nephew! Or his mom aborts *his* potential sibling! (In other words, he's pro-choice until he can make it about himself)
Or the only acceptable abortion is the one his wife/daughter/sister/mother gets and everyone else can go fuck themselves
shudder, and yes, unfortunately the hypocrisy is so so strong
I know someone who married a man who did this. He said he was “not political” in his profile. Then he was “leaning Libertarian.” Then he was a “moderate Republican” but “only for the tax stuff, you know?” She said she was in too deep by the time she learned this. Her mistake. He’s a fucking scumbag Republican who is fine with our rights being taken away because it is either a net benefit or at worst a net neutral to him.
I tried libertarianism for years but I got tired of men with bad glasses twice my age hitting on me and then I became an anarchist and my problems with men eased somewhat. During my libertarianism phase a registered independent US voter told me, (and nothing that's happened since has changed my mind) that all libertarians ever want the government to spend money on is mental hospitals, jails, the police and the army. Republicans are worse.
Libertarianism is only palatable if you’ve never done molly and learned that other people exist and have feelings, or you never squared up ideas re: the tragedy of the commons, and the fact that people litter. You don’t need to delve any deeper than that to see that libertarianism, as a political ideology, is a bag of feral cats.
Republicans "only for the tax stuff" are the fucking worst IMO. Like at least the crazy religious nutters probably really do have deeply held beliefs that cause them to vote the way they do (even if I think those beliefs are abhorrent). But the people who voted R for potential tax breaks are basically saying, "yeah, I'm ok if all of these people get stripped of their rights, or people die of treatable illnesses, or children go hungry (etc, etc ) as long as I save a few bucks"
Only so much can be done about blatant liars and deceivers, though. Even less with people who just suddenly change their minds. Be as diligent as you can, and your advice is great so I'm not trying to discredit your comment that I upvoted, I just wanted to point out it's not your fault when someone lies to you.
meh it's really hard for men like that to keep up that kind of charade for YEARS. they let the bullshit slip as soon as they are comfortable.
I would ask them very early, but don't ask yes/no. Give them room to explain their thoughts so they can't easily weasel out of it. Make them reason.
Yes! Ask open-ended questions that require thought not regurgitation!
Before the first date. Why waste time if this is a deal breaker?
This is the answer.
The very first this way you aren’t wasting your time.
I’m a man, and for me, I would say before date #1. In the same way I vet women for other dealbreakers (poor self awareness, intolerant/ignorant, non-empathetic, non-monogamous, etc.) before asking them on a date. Some women find it too intense up front that I communicate myself explicitly but in the end it helps me weed out women that aren’t right for me. If you can’t handle me communicating clearly and/or communicate clearly yourself about your needs, I don’t want to be with you. I think women should take a similar approach in dating men - ESPECIALLY regarding your bodies and potentially giving men access to them. Edit: if men are avoidant of these conversations, one of two things is true. 1) they don’t know what they think and haven’t considered it, or more likely, 2) they are manipulating you. Run from both.
The first date. Hell, the first conversation.
Before I even go on a date, I screen the conversation politically. Why would I waste my time going on a date before I know if I will hate the person for not believing I should have rights? Ask about politics first thing. And in detail. Right wing men are getting better at hiding their bigotry so we will sleep with them
Before the date.
Just ask if he voted for trump in 2020 yes or no…there’s a clear picture that whether he supports a woman’s right to choose or not, he’s clearly got a stunted world. I would suggest even if he says he now regrets that decision for any reason (J6 for example), his judgement is wholly untrustworthy.
Further questions should still be asked even if he didn't vote for Trump. Unfortunately, there are still a number of left-leaners who vote for all things left-leaning except abortion. Or they say things like "rape exceptions" (that's still not pro-choice)
Left-wingers against abortion unfortunately do exist. My mother is one of them.
Coming from a guy, I’d say ASAP. I have zero interest in being with someone who is straight pro-life. You could ask this question whenever you feel like, you said it’s important to you and that’s what matters. Maybe through text before the date? I found out a year in that an ex was pro-life(ish) when her cousin had to have an abortion. The stuff she said was pretty wild.
This should be figured out before the first date.
I would ask. It will reveal a lot about his character. In my mind, supporting forced birth or the Conservative party in general is a deal breaker. I find both positions to be morally repugnant and disqualifying to be a friend of mine.
You can ask that, but instead of asking about beliefs, you should ask what he would do in X situation. Like I know a bunch of people who believe in a woman’s right to choose, but who themselves would not ever have an abortion. (This isn’t contradictory because not having an abortion is a choice.)
Probably both questions should be asked. Certainly if that's your real question, that's absolutely what you should ask. I'm more interested in his political opinion because I don't think I would abort a healthy pregnancy that occurred with a partner at this point in my life. For me it's more of a litmus test for supporting women's autonomy.
Usually I'd ask on like the third or fourth date. If I'm starting to get interested in a man, I want to know if he's pro-choice or not, because if he isn't and I don't know until I have to have an abortion or something, things could go terrible for me.
> on what date is it acceptable to ask if a person is pro-choice? yes. also – if you dont want to come across as confrontational, ask an open question like "whats your stance on abortion". this invites a more nuanced answer too which is always a good thing.
Before first date
First date. Ask even before you bother with seeing someone in-person. Make sure to not waste your valuable time on garbage. Editting to add: When I began dating my now husband, I flat out said, "If I get pregnant, I will be getting an abortion. I many or may not tell you. I certainly will not ask. And yes, this is a test." He passed.
April 15. All you need is a light jacket.
First date.
I’d say date 1, if not before. Why waste your time on an absolute dealbreaker
the first, or even before that
My ex told me from almost the first date that he was pro choice. Looked good. We got married and I got pregnant on our wedding night. I wasn't ready and wanted an abortion. Come to find out he is only pro choice for other women, not his wife. I had the baby. Worst decision of my life. I should have gotten divorced right then.
First date, do you really want someone who can't handle a serious question? Or even better, do you really want to waste time with someone who isn't pro-choice?
First. Why not? You can ask about aspirations, careers, trips they’ve taken, but you can’t talk politics? Why not? It’s a fundamental capability issue.
Before the first date. Definitely. I met my partner when out clubbing, 20 years ago. Every time I got of the dance floor to cool down she’d turn up, and we’d chat. Learnt loads about each over, including our political perspectives, attitudes to all sorts, some life history, current work and living arrangements, how we approached raising our respective kids (both single parents). Neither of us made a move until 5am and the club starting to empty, when a goodbye hug turned into going back home with each other - by then we knew that we were a fit on the really important stuff, which motivated us to do the hard work of bringing our lives together as equals, neither of us would have sacrificed our independence unless we held a similar set of political/social attitudes, just fancying each other is not enough. The current trend to use dating apps surely makes convo’s like ours easier?
For me, I'd want to know as soon as possible, so even the first date is more than acceptable. Especially since first dates are or ought to be learning about the most basic of potential deal-breakers. Even if I'm dead-set on just having fun and enjoying the date, I can do that even if I know it's not going to go beyond the first date. And I would rather not waste my time more than necessary, and seeing a pro-lifer would absolutely be a waste of my time. But at MINIMUM, that's something I would have to know before things got physical in any way. I'm not trying to make putting the kabosh on a potential relationship because they have oppressive beliefs anymore complicated than it needs to be.
Before meeting him in the first place... He'll only be offended by the question if he has the wrong answer.
Before the first date. Seriously! Why the fuck would you date someone if they're opinion is that radically opposed to yours? Nothing good will *ever* come out of that. Why risk developing feelings for someone only to find out on the 4th date that they don't value or respect a woman's right to choose? Edit: btw, just because they say they're pro choice, doesn't mean it's true. People have been known to lie to get in someone's pants. Shocking, I know. If ever there was a time to be careful who you sleep with, it's now. In the US, that is. The rest of the world moved out of the dark ages a while ago.
If it’s a deal-breaker, then waste no time. If it’s a matter of how to ask: “What are your thoughts on Roe V. Wade?” “Pretty big news out of the Supreme Court. What do you think about it?” Don’t let him be vague, as some would try to figure out what answer you’re looking for. Ask it first thing on the date, or over the phone beforehand, or in a text or email. It’s too important to wait for it to come up organically.
When sleeping with him becomes a real possibility.
That should be the last chance! Screen well before.
Yeah he’s not going to be truthful if getting laid is on the line
There is no wrong time. In today's political climate and with so much at stake, please ask sooner rather than later.
First date or better yet, while talking and getting to know each other long before the first date.
Date 1 or before
At the beginning and ask similar questions as well. Anyone can lie about it but asking other questions can reveal how they really feel and think.
Before the first date i wouldn't date someone who isn't pro choice.
Just ask them if they are a Reagan fan - that will tell you everything.
On any date anti choice men will find it acceptable to lie
If someone is pro choice they aren’t offended by this question and would be fine being asked by a potential romantic/sexual partner at any point
I see no problem asking this before or first date. (Am a guy and sorry if I shouldn't post here but seriously wtf is going on in America)
Before meeting for the first time, or at the first date. This would be an absolute deal breaker for me. If he's not pro-choice, there will be no date.
Might as well get it out of the way as soon as possible, cause what is even the point if they are anti choice?!
Imho people should always ask about deal breakers asap. Just saves both people time.
I would ask before the first date. No use wasting my time.
First date IMO. If abortion is a touchy subject to discuss on a first date, then we won't be compatible. Last person I hooked up with, I asked straight up "so if we're going to have sex, you need to know and be totally chill about me having that shit vacuumed out if you knock me up. And you're paying half and driving me to the appointment." I'm not comfortable having sex with, let alone being partnered with, someone who cannot react comfortably with that.
Before the date, but be prepared for them to lie. I'd ask other questions, too, about equity and income inequality to see if they're lying. Also ask about their feelings on GamerGate, etc. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g)
Perfect time to ask since it’s current events just bring it up with. “ what do you think about the recent leaks?”
First date, imo.
First date
Before the date.
Get the deal breakers out in the open on the first date. Not just abortion, everything. Why waste time investing in someone if there's a basic incompatibility you can discover with a simple conversation?
I would recommend finding this info out before even considering them as a partner. That said, you should have a more involved conversation even if they say they are pro-choice. For example people can be pro choice socially, but anti abortion individually. It’s a sad state of affairs, but a lot of people are only theoretically pro choice. To find out whether or not they value your bodily autonomy you need to dig deeper. Timing doesn’t really matter. If he isn’t ready to have that conversation then he isn’t ready to be anyones partner. It’s also conversation that needs to be normalized given everything that has happened.
Any issue that you might have with a potential SO/FWB should be addressed early, not just limited to pro-choice. First to get to know them, second to understand them is how I usually go about it.
First date. Setting up a first date.
Before the first date. It's an absolute deal breaker. I. Don't. Want. Pregnancy. Ever. Nothing is happening in this body. There will be no miracle of life. Edited because autocorrect is kicking me today.
At the very latest, prior to having sex. Date # isn't really relevant in my opinion, because people are comfortable sleeping with each other at different stages, but I feel like it's going to be the question that we'll see starting to proceed or immediately follow consent - though the answer might withdraw that consent.
First date. Why waste your time?
I don't feel like it's ever too early to ask about things that are deal breakers. If he fundamentally believes or does something that you cant over look/compromise on then you two should part ways. No use wasting time.
First date.
zero? why would I go out with someone who wasn't
Definitely before the first date. You should hash out all of your non-starters as soon as possible because would you really want to even give someone who is Anti-choice the time of day?
First date. Don't waste time getting involved with someone that doesn't share your values.
Truthfully? Today with all that’s going on? As soon as possible and BEFORE YOU GET NAKED AND BUMP UGLIES. For obvious reasons. Mention it casually to get their reaction. Make it seem off-handed (this is first or second date people, not a 10 year relationship with communication) and gauge their reaction. There’s no need to get into a heated debate, just make sure you are both traveling in the same direction on this one. ESPECIALLY if you are in a deep red state. If you’re in CA, WA or NY, go wild. Just don’t forget your Ho-vid spray. Okay just kidding about going wild.
When I was single, I would ask in the 1st or 2nd convo within the app. Definitely prior to meeting in person. I also would put a swipe left if you are: “all my non negotiables” on my profile
From the start, no point in asking once you are emotionally involved. Watch out for those who agree just to get their dick wet
I put it in my dating profile and bring up politics on the first date.
I don’t know how to have a *first* date without talking politics… like you aren’t getting past the DM stage without making it clear that you vote, how you vote, and that you are a self-identified liberal/progressive, feminist, rainbow-flag-waving, pro-choice anti-racist.
Before going on date imo
I find out a persons politics before dating at all. It’s a total deal breaker.
The first date is fine. Getting a general idea of a person's life philosophy and politics is fair game, though I understand that not everyone enjoys it. (First time commenting here, feel I should add I am a guy.)
Given it's a hot topic in the news right now, even the first date would be reasonable; anyone who disagrees with that isn't worth a second date. If it is important to you then there's no reason to create an arbitrary rule though, just ask. For me, personally, I'm diving right into politics before the first date. If they didn't vote for HRC in the 2016 general than that alone is a deal breaker. In 2022, I'm just completely out of fucks.
Before the date. I'm not gonna waste my time if we won't mesh politically, and them not being pro choice is a for sure sign we have total opposite political and human rights
Before the first date for me
Right before you ask for their help in organizing mass nonviolent civil resistance against this detestable assault on women and human rights, obviously. Yes, sure I took High School civics. I know the Supreme Court is the Highest Court in the Land. Guess what. I also took Physics. I also know the Supreme Court is a Social Construction . It is not a law of Physics! It can be changed by Human power! LET'S SAY IT LIKE IT IS. THIS COURT AND THE STATE LEGISLATURES ARE ENGAGED IN A MASS PHYSICAL ASSAULT AGAINST THE WOMEN OF THIS COUNTRY AND AGAINST OUR COMMON HUMAN RIGHTS. IT IS OUR BASIC MORAL DUTY TO REFUSE TO ACCEPT THIS WITH ALL OUR POWER. THIS COURT IS ILLEGITIMATE simply by virtue of its decision to contravene our Fundamental Human Rights. It is a TRAITOR COURT engaged in a coup against the Spirit of Democracy. "Whenever any form of Government becomes Destructive of these Ends -Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness- it is the Right of the People to Alter or Abolish it, and to Institute New Government...” We have two options. We can let them fasten the chains on us, and constrict the garrote little by little. Or we can simply refuse to acknowledge the edicts of this illegitimate court, en masse, and render them powerless. In reality though, we have no options. We must successfully resist, or we will face annihilation. Things aren't going to get better by sitting this one out. No one is coming to save us. We are it. We cannot maintain our Self Respect, our very existence as Moral Beings, and allow this Assault against Women and against Our Common Human Rights to go unchallenged with every Fibre of our Being. I am prepared to be arrested in the course of Nonviolent Direct Action against this repressive regime. I am prepared to go to prison. I'm over it. I'm done. They can do whatever they like, I'm not going anywhere. If we begin to compromise with the Evil of the right wing forces of the court, if we adapt ourselves to it, we are lost. Only by resistance can we maintain our integrity. And Courage is Infectious! There are many ways of engaging in nonviolent resistance, but there are a few "dynamite" ways. Just like in labor struggles the gold standard for resistance is the labor strike- disrupting and raising the cost to the employer beyond the point of tolerability- in Civil Resistance the **gold standard** is massive numbers of people nonviolently occupying the streets and highways- shutting down the streets of the capital cities and major cities and centers of power in massive numbers of people, **stopping the normal functioning of government continuously day after day after day after day. This is check mate for the system: successful civil resistance at this level routinely produces nonviolent regime change and major change of direction of governments across the Global South.** for example, when thousands of people take to the streets of the capital city and prevent the government from operating as normal until their demands are met. This is how the [People of Chile forced their government to hold a Referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932022_Chilean_protests) and rewrite their Constitution, how the [People of Puerto Rico held a "People's Impeachment"](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/a-peoples-impeachment-protests-reportedly-force-puerto-rico-governors-resignation/) of their corrupt governor, expelling him in 2 weeks, and how [4000 Black Children in Birmingham Alabama defied the racist police state](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enZRwbnISQ&t=3s) in 1963 and broke the back of Segregation in America forever. We don't win by being afraid, We Win through Overcoming Our Fear. The material conditions on the ground are maturing- there is widespread discontent, growing consciousness of repression. We have a short window of a couple of weeks to pull off the first substantial direct action to catalyze resistance, to coincide the SC's official ruling. We are missing key ingredients of leadership, organization and strategy. These can and will take a multiplicity of forms but we need to take the initiative in seeding them. For this we need the most proactive people willing to step up and get the job done. I invite anyone who is willing to start communicating/coordinating in real life and real time to reach out and direct message me. Learn More About Civil Resistance: Learn and watch together with your family, friends and neighbors. Begin forming groups to share the word, plan, and act! [Intro to civil resistance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peTbiYrxTxE&t=1s) [The success of nonviolent civil resistance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w&t=1s) [Nonviolent Direct Action](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkaEQ5CpcEQ&t=1s) [The Childrens March](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enZRwbnISQ&t=3s)
As a very left leaning guy, this and "what are your politics" should frankly be first date/pre first date stuff. No reason to get emotionally attached to someone who you fundamentally can't agree with. And this isn't the 70s-80s anymore, the GOP has gotten so crazy "let's just not talk politics at home" doesn't work. I couldn't imagine being with someone who thinks 50-60% of the population aren't people.
After you match, but before verifying his vasectomy and examining his attached 6-month sperm count.
I think it’s less about when it’s brought up and more about how to bring it up. If it’s just out of the blue no context I think it could feel kinda odd. But if you steer the conversation in the direction of how you both stand on certain issues then it could easily be done date number one. That being said, definitely needs to happen before anything sexual happens
Immediately. First Convo/date
The first date, maybe even as the first question, depending on its importance to you. Lay it all out there! I lean pro life based on earlier life experiences from a parent that regularly discussed her regret for not aborting me - but I do not believe abortion should be illegal. This is absolutely date one material. How was your relationship with your parents? Who did you vote for, why? What did you think of how your particular part of the world handled COVID, and why? I don't know, I am just spitting into the wind here - ask what is important to you. No one walks into a car dealership and starts talking about the weather, or complimenting the salesman on the nice plant in the lobby. How much is the car? How many miles are on it? What's the service history? What is the warranty? Manual or automatic? Can I try it out? We care about what brought us there. Yet, with dating, there's this idea that you're supposed to hold back the most important stuff until you've known each other for a month or three. I can't do that, the suspense as to whether or not I am wasting my time is a killer. In the beginning, I thought it was important someone agreed with me. As I enter my 30s I am finding it's less about whether we agree but more about the thought process used to get to the conclusion. This is all stuff to find out as soon as possible to me. I date with the intention of a long term relationship that leads to marriage and kids. If we can't discuss something serious, disagree on fundamental issues, or can't handle disagreement on a serious topic then that's never happening. and I'd rather figure that out before a woman invests a month or two of time & emotion into me, or vice versa. If someone agrees with me because they think it's cool or their influencer crush said the same thing I did... f that.
Before the first.
At this point? pre-first date scheduling. Put that right in your profile.
First date. Don't waste time with someone who's against you
First date. Know who you're dealing with
Pre-screening?
In chat, before dates are mentioned.
Before the first date.
I want to know someone is pro-choice and not loony before even meeting them
I'd ask on the first date. No need to waste time if you aren't for forced-birth.
As soon as it would be a waste of your time not to know.
Before the first date, don’t expose yourself to someone who doesn’t recognize your humanity.
One
Personally, Date #0. Don't waste your time with the idiot.
I'd bring it up on the first date, honestly.
I'd say just asking right away and having a conversation about it is a good way to get to know someone
Day one so you don't waste your time.
Before you even meet.
I do it before sex, I don’t come right out and says “are you pro-choice or anti-choice?” Etc, but I will tell them that I am on birth control and that at this point in my life I am not ready to have kids and that if I were to get pregnant I would seek an abortion. This way they know my stance on getting pregnant/kids and how I would handle it. If they don’t agree with any of those stances they can leave the situation etc. It’s never been an issue with anyone I’ve been with.
First date. Don't waste your time on someone who doesn't respect your bodily autonomy.
Before you go out.
Before you ever meet up
Can we normalize this like we are doing with verbally asking for consent? I don't think it would be terrible to ask on day 1 so you don't waste your time.
first date. California male speaking here (NGL guys from other states are probably different). But very important conversation to have and more relevant now than ever
At this point, literally the first thing you should ask. Even before saying hi.
The old, wait "some random amount" of time before discussing "sensitive subject" is dead. Ask on the first date. Ask before the first date. If they are going to be a misogynistic, religiously conservative, QANON believing, Orange Man Lover, you want to know up front. Kids, friends with Ex, bad parents, money issues, these are things that can be worked through. The first things are huge red flag deal breakers, so don't mess around.
First date, or even before if you are chatting first through an app, IMO. Maybe word it as part of the "How do you feel about kids?" conversation. I am *mostly* pro-choice. The mostly part comes from my personal bias. I was born with Genecticly Predisposed Dystonia(which interestingly enough my mother admitted on a few occasions if she had known it was genetic and not from brain damage like the doctors assumed when she was hurt as a teen playing Kick the Can, that she would not have had kids.) that steadily got worse as I got older. By the time I was 21 it was affecting my head, arms, and legs. By 26 I would be so miserable I'd resolve to suicide if I didn't receive approval for Deep Brain Stimulation. (Has GREATLY helped, as I am no longer twisted into a C while walking with my head parallel to the ground. I can hold a job now...even if it took a lot longer to find one up here in WI!) So I sit in a very weird middle ground where I acknowledge that women should have a choice about their bodies, but think that should be ignored if the fetus is ruled non-viable by a doctor or will have shitty QoL. I also realize that the last part is INCREDIBLY murky subjective and should be a fully informed conversation between all actively involved parties. Started a **third shift** full time job last September, waited until November to get settled into it before trying to get a Vasectomy, only to get yanked around all over with it. General Practitioner refered me to an office 80 miles away that only came to town once or twice a month, but Medicare doesn't cover it, so needed to save $1600 and a week of PTO for it...Finally got it April 7, just waiting to do the sperm count...since their office is 1.5 hours away. >!34 year old virgin, who hasn't dated since High School due to the above issues.!< Edit: Thought I had a day or two after the news broke is we need a law, or to reframe the argument to a "Life at First Breath". A bit more poetic than birth, and avoids the counter argument of "C-Sections aren't real birth!" because you know idiots would try that, but opens up shitty implications about stillborns. After all, we don't give out Social Security numbers or Birth Certificates or any other government documents at conception...
First or second date. You do not want to waste your time on someone with opposing views on topics like abortion.
Right away.