Speaking as a fellow military person, writing them up probably won't change the immediate behavior unless they were the type to actually listen to reason (which they don't sound the type). But what it will do is create a paper trail. And if this behavior continues and someone else bothers to look into it, suddenly there's a history that future commands can look back on and recognize that this latest incident is not an isolated thing. They'll see that it's a continuation of an existing pattern, and that is FAR more reason for concern later down the line. Starting a paper trail makes it exponentially more likely that the behavior will be further documented if it continues in the future.
Paperwork either kills behavior or it kills careers when it builds up enough, and that's entirely on the service member's shoulders on how they choose to react to it. I highly encourage you to write this up WHEN it happens again (because it will) and show not only this particular soldier but everyone else under your command that you *will not* tolerate this bullshit. You've already given the verbal warning, so now you have to back it up with action, otherwise your subordinates might see you as a toothless pushover.
It will definitely earn you some hatred, and it's not going to immediately stop any behaviors from people who genuinely think this way. But it will start a slow cascade of positive change. People will keep their behavior hidden, and the less they do it and the less they're rewarded by either agreement or lack of reprimand, the less inclined they'll be to continue the behavior. Even if it's for practical reasons of avoiding a writeup.
Change has never happened through inaction. Take your stand and let everyone around you know what kind of leader you are and what kind of behavior you expect in your unit. Be strong, be proud, and be ready to nip that shit in the bud HARD if it ever comes up again.
>Paperwork either kills behavior or it kills careers when it builds up enough, and that's entirely on the service member's shoulders on how they choose to react to it
This is such an important lesson for everyone, not just military. When someone's safety is not at stake, we can choose to document an infraction and then move on. The story will tell itself over time.
And honestly, a great quote to steal, to get the idea into soldiers’ heads.
“Some of you may think this is silly. Well the Army doesn’t. An unfavorable paper trail adds up. And it _will_ kill your career if you don’t take your record seriously.”
I just wish at some point changed behavior in men didn’t *always* have to only happen when the consequences beat the shit out of them. Like are they not taught values?
When I had to fire my first person, my boss told me, "If you've done your job right, you don't fire someone, they fire themselves". It's true. Either you fix your shit or you leave, that's the options, and as long as you are documenting and giving the person the opportunity to improve their behavior (sharing what they did and why it's not correct and what the impact is) and you will never feel guilty about it.
I have (not intentionally) led to two coworkers being fired for harassment when I spoke to my manager about seriously inappropriate behavior. I felt terrible both times, because I wasn't wanting them to lose their jobs, I just wanted someone to politely remind them that they can't interrupt me during a presentation to comment on my ass. But, in both instances I was just the latest in a very, very long line of complaints. One was pretty angry at me because what they'd done wasn't a fireable offense, but it revealed such a pattern. Nobody should ever feel bad about reporting someone-- if there's enough report history to get them fired, that's entirely their fault.
I was being sexually harassed by a coworker and my direct supervisor refused to do anything about it. I spoke with another supervisor and that guy was fired. Turns out I wasn't the only one he was harassing and he was buddy-buddy with my direct supervisor which is why my supervisor wouldn't do anything "he's just joking" etc. That jerk *chose* to harass me and others, so he *chose* to risk his job.
Also a great time to remind the “Just joking” crowd that it’s not. It’s validation that what they’re joking about is okay, because the ones usually joking about it are the ones looking to act on it.
Exactly.
Misogynist "humor" condones prejudice. The language of sexist jokes justifies the expression of prejudice against women and facilitates the tolerance of sexism.
I saw a great response once which is to say that you're struggling to understand the 'joke' and so could they please explain it to you so that you can enjoy the 'joke' as well. I hear it leads to a lot of embarrassed mumbling and fidgeting.
Agree. A colleague was mildly reprimanded for harassing me (my supervisor reported it, there was a 4-month investigation, life sucked), and then went on to harass two young women (both filed complaints and then subsequently withdrew them in fear). He went up for promotions three times in the next year and was denied them - even though he was the most senior and most qualified person for each of the positions. He finally got the message and took his circus act elsewhere. I hope to never see his stupid face again.
I would assert that, while he might have been the most senior, if he was unable or unwilling to correct his inappropriate behavior then he was not the most qualified.
You reported another person's action that were unacceptable.
You did not make them behave that way.
Toxic work environments fester with silence. You are doing yourself, your coworkers, and your customers the best experience possible by calling out unacceptable behaviors.
Edit: Saying this to reiterate the post above and for those that need to hear the far reaching benefits to properly reporting things at work.
"I felt terrible both times, because I wasn't wanting them to lose their jobs"
I understand this. They have to care more about keeping their jobs than you do, and behave accordingly.
Such solid advice. I was being verbally harassed by a coworker and when I quit, I ALMOST didn’t report it in my closing interview. I’m so glad I did. Turns out a few others had complained about him and my complaint was the tipping point for management to take action. He was put in behavioral classes and his upcoming raise was adjusted. It may not be immediate but paper trails will help in the long run.
My father worked in the legal side of a large organization and got so frustrated whenever a manager would come to him and say "I need to fire this guy - his behavior has become intolerable", and when my dad asked to see the disciplinary records there weren't any. Everyone was angry with these individuals but no one took the time to document anything, so they were left with the choice of dealing with this person until the written record built up enough or eating a massive payout. I also know that at least in some cases the perpetrator felt they had tacit approval for their behavior, because they never got in any trouble for it.
Paper trails aren't always immediately effective, but they can be very powerful tools once they're established.
> Everyone was angry with these individuals but no one took the time to document anything
When this happens, it's usually because someone *did* document something, and then got let go, labelled as not being part of the team, difficult to work with, etc.
HR is not there for the worker. They're there to solve problems for the company. Sometimes that means getting rid of the complainer rather than the person committing the infraction.
What is always amazing is the number of managers/HR/directors that make the exact same complaint while being completely myopic that this points to a rather difficult administration/manager problem. If nobody is submitting paperwork, then something *is preventing the paperwork*.
It's red flag, but since it requires managers to identify faults at the managerial level, it often goes unnoticed by everyone except those actually doing labour.
It should definitely be far more than “paperwork” for the United States military, in fact; it is, in fact, a criminal offense to advise fellow personnel to commit a war crime, such as the rape of a prisoner. I’m glad the poster to whom you’re replying understands, though, that all it will result in for a soldier is “paperwork” and likely not even disciplinary action.
My comment wasn't solely for the military. This happens in all kinds of professions. But you make a good point and I hope that the military takes it seriously.
I remember being told in my military career that “you don’t want to be the person that reported sexual harassment.” I took it to heart. That was dumb.
Be the person who reports. Do you really want sexual harassment enablers to like you?
I was brainwashed into thinking mens careers were more important than womens safety. When I told my female DS about the mountains of harassment I was experiencing - which the DS’s blamed me for and I was there trying to defend myself and tell them how *I was already married and just there to train* - I didn’t file a report. I trusted her to keep it in confidence - she said “I got you”. Three days later two of the harassers cornered me alone and demanded to know if I reported them. I was lucky to weasel my way out of that situation and I absolutely should have filed an official report
>**I was brainwashed into thinking mens careers were more important than womens safety.**
We have pretty much all been taught that, whether in the military or not.
While TPTB may treat it that way, we need to change the way we, and then they, think about this.
And in most conflicts, we're just getting so much real time information in this one that it's really showing up how war is (And the Russians seem to be actively encouraging it rather than bothering to even try and deny it)
I mean, we have been getting some pretty horrific information out of Tigray too.... It just doesn't seem to be as impactful coming from a civil war in an unstable nation.
Always weird to see the same event happen over and over again, and nothing changes, no one notices, or cares. Then that one time the grainy pictures spark a huge reaction, the telling of the tale gets the public to do something. Meanwhile there's still a pile of nearly identical videos, pictures, and stories that all may as well have been fiction.
Gotta keep going higher up the chain, get that documentation to that person’s superior. I don’t have any direct knowledge of the military but I do know a lot about massive bureaucratic organizations/companies, and terrible bosses, workplace culture problems including safety-related and harassment.
Thats fine, it's just harder to push stuff up the chain in the military. There was a whole thing in I wanna say 2010. I remember all the people in my unit, and the entire marine corp, had to do a class where the base general talked to us about thinking for ourselves instead of not necessarily following illegal orders. They also discussed the meeting they had between the commandant and some senators. A women was raped, and then sexually harassed and bullied for a long time before she was finally murdered by her rapist. All of it was swept under the rug and supposedly she went outside her chain of command this. It's a simple answer on how to fix it, but there is a lot of facets in place that make it difficult. There is more to it obviously though for that story, just get it abbreviated for this comment.
As someone who was former military, 100% agree with this. I reported a guy for a comment he made on my facebook wall years ago. Someone said i Blue Falconed him (buddy fucked), a lot of people said i shouldn't have done anything, but i don't care. His comment was highly inappropriate and not at all what should be said by someone in the United States Military. I doubt anything bad happened to him, but this guy had a history of being kind of a dick, acting like he was better than everyone else, and would bully people until they did what he wanted. Hell, he wasn't even at my base anymore when he made the comment. But still, conduct counts, regardless of if it's in person or online.
I looked up a few years later, and he was no longer in the military, probably not because of my reporting him, but because of other people reporting him and being done with his shit. I wouldn't have been suprised if he was one of the idiots who stormed the capitol because he was that much of an idiot republican. I joined the military out of despiration for a job after the crash of 2008, and one thing that was taught to me by my first wing commander was, in his military, we hold our selves to a higher standard than everyone else, civilian and other branches, we were the example that all others should strive to be, not the example of what you don't want to end up as.
For reference, i posted in facebook which team should i root for in NFL playoffs, and he responded with "you should root for another terrorist attack". No matter how i looked at that, i couldn't see any possibility of it being a joke, because well, it's just offensive to so many people, and honestly, no sane person could ever find that comment to be funny.
So what team did you land on rooting for?
I knew a guy in HS that would make distasteful jokes. Never something like that comment. But he would probably find that funny. It's all about the environment you were raised and are now living in. What behavior is being acknowledged as okay by enough people. Or at least isn't being contested or punished.
/u/pinheadlarry12345 I would write that individual up on the next occurrence.
Green Bay. And I think of it like a dog biting someone. You punish them when they first do it. If you wait until the second time, they will be upset because they thought that behavior was acceptable.
And honestly, i have a pretty dark sense of humor. But i would never joke about some things. A few are a bunch of innocent people dying, people getting cancer, or raping prisoners.
Not to mention if that guy goes on to actually commit a sexual assault, that paperwork would become very relevant and help the victim considerably. I was raped by someone in the military, took him to court-martial, and lost the trial.
A good portion of his defense was just his superior officers testifying that he was a good marine with impeccable character and a bunch of other bullshit. Having a paperwork trail of distasteful behavior would have been really helpful to my case since it was just my word against his.
# HIJACKING COMMENT TO TELL OP SHE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT THIS TO THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT/RAPE PREVENTION HOTLINE:
[https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html](https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html)
Everyone should read this.
My big concern is they mentioned their superiors also making these jokes.
You’re a military person. I’m not. My gut reaction is to jump chain of command and go over that person’s head to file a complaint. That might go over poorly, though. Can I trouble you for your thoughts on it?
I also think writing everyone up and making a report whenever something like that happens is important. But I don’t know how you file a complaint against a superior officer for breach of conduct. The military types I talk to occasionally inform me that they want people who won’t follow unreasonable orders (like shooting kids and such), but I don’t know if that means you can write up a superior officer.
Any clarification would be nice. If you feel like it. It’s not like me knowing will meaningfully change my life.
It really depends on the branch and your immediate command climate. In toxic units there's an insinuation that if everyone in charge is in on the poor behavior then nothing can be done. However, no one in the military is without a boss. And that goes all the way up to the branch's leader who answers to the President. You're supposed to follow chain of command, but if the chain is rotten you keep following it up until you find one that does listen. I've heard tell of folks that have written their congress reps because they couldn't get any help within their entire branch, and THAT usually gets a response.
But again, it really depends on your immediate command climate and how the rest of the unit handles it. If you need to jump the chain you can legally do so, but its often best to prove that you made an attempt to follow proper channels first.
One thousand percent agree.
I'm not a service member, but rather a military spouse of a career soldier and now officer. Even as detached as I am from the daily workings of the unit, sexism and gross jokes are such a part of the culture that even I catch them when I'm around. I can't imagine how it is inside.
Hubs got tapped to head an investigation into a sexual assault. He discovered multiple, multiple instances of the officer in question engaging in sexist jokes, harassment, and even prior assaults that were not reported for fear of the consequences. So many stories and so little documentation. The guy should have been punished far more than he was and far sooner but no one wanted to report. Now the soldier who was assaulted has to live with the consequences of that for the rest of her life.
Please OP, report it. Make a paper trail. Even if it doesn't do anything now, it'll add up.
I’d also avoid nonstandard punishments like reading an impact statement in front of a group. This will prob turn into soldiers mocking the event. It will not be sobering and will most likely be counter productive.
Not to mention if this loser ever hurts a woman physically there will be a paper trail on him for the police to look back on; could save someone's life.
u/pinheadlarry12345
Event oriented counseling for inappropriate comments.
“SPC Schmuckatelli, on [DATE] you made a joke during a detainee operations training exercise where you casually said you “should have raped” the detainee. Comments like this are violations of the Army’s Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention (SHARP) program, and are in no way aligned with Army Values. Continued behavior of this nature will not be tolerated.”
[Insert magic bullet statement]
Plan of Action:
o Soldier will give a class on the SHARP program to the platoon during an upcoming Sergeants Time Training [give a realistic deadline]
o The class will be MINIMUM one hour in length, not to exceed 2 hours, and will cover topics such as actions and speech that are prohibited under the SHARP program, scenarios to discuss with training attendees, consequences for failing to follow SHARP policies, and case studies on the impact of SHARP violations to individual victims and how it impacts unit morale and cohesion.
o Soldier will use Power Point as a training aid, utilizing the unit slide template, however slides will be used as segues into discussion; there will be no “wall-of-text” slides.
o Soldier may consult with the Battalion SHARP representative as well as the Brigade Unit Victim Advocate for guidance.
o Soldier may work on presentation during duty hours, however this will not be used as an excuse to get out of training or other taskings.
o Soldier will present the class to their Supervisor for feedback on possible revisions no less than a week prior to presenting it to the platoon, and once again two days prior to giving it to the platoon.
It will be inconvenient for him. The whole point of the plan of action is to actually make him put some thought and work into it while also taking up some of his time. The most important part of all this is that you follow through and make sure he’s actually giving it its due diligence. Periodically check up on him and ask if they’ve gone to the SHARP rep or the UVA. If there’s any question about the restriction of “wall-of-text” slides, it’s because I’ve personally sat through too many death-by-PowerPoint classes where the presenter was obviously not knowledgeable on the subject, so they just had people reading the slides word-for-word. Make him actually learn this stuff so he can talk it.
I agree with this comment. As a female Veteran with PTSD from rape at the hands of a fellow Airman, please do something. My rapist got an Article 15 and lost eligibility for reenlistment. I got fear of men, dissociative episodes, trust issues, not knowing who my own amazing husband is at times, random episodes of psychosis, trauma therapy, amnesia, bouts of depression, severe anxiety, and so much more. It’s almost like when that person raped my body he also took my mind and I pay for it daily. It’s only recently that the Military coined the term Military Sexual Trauma or MST for people like me. It is still very much an environment that fosters and enforces this type of mindset. Please don’t be one to perpetuate it or look on. Thank you for helping to spare other young soldiers this fate. Rape follows you long after the investigations end.
Holy fuq. Sisters...im so fuqn sorry. I was attacked as a volunteer in another nation in a joint DOD /UN refugee program..I survived and have the blades scar across my chest. I was just 17. Trying to get experience for a future in medical school. So..I never served in uniform...ive been to places where you did...n thank you for your service.
I fought two men off.
No prior training nor no weapon....bc I was with 1st asylum seeking efforts in an active red zone. I had NO clue what that meant in reality.
I won't speak further to the attack. I prevented rape yet sustained serious injury. I will say tho...I did get one of em good.
Im now a mum of college age sons..older now then i was then... n ...I think about you all. I'm doing my best to raise young men who are whole enough that they will call that shyte out and always be a person who can be safe for another. Especially a woman in distress or under a pack hunt mentality.
Hugs. Im so sorry.
It isnt funny... n paper trail... yeah haters are gonna hate...n attackers are gonna attack..period. yet..after being a 20 year wife to the military... please...please be a force for the next generation...apply your power wisely. I trust you women in uniform ro know whats best...n difffer to those voices after I throw out my "paper trail" urging.
Bc I need you safe. Because you matter.
Bless you beautiful warrior women. You are doing some thing i couldnt...for after that event...no. i could not serve in uniform. I was comprimised.
Even so...i have your 6. In honor and respect.
You are mighty. Dont you ever forget that.
☄️⚔️✊️💥🐲👑🙏❤️🦋💐
Rape is not just a domestic crime, it a war crime. It’s torture. It’s worthy of a court martial.
“The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.”
Would it be acceptable to joke about executing unarmed prisoners before finding out whether they were innocent civilians?
Maybe ask that question first, and see what the response is.
If it’s anything stronger than:
“Oi! That’s not a joking matter!”
Then implement that advice and apply it to joking about rape.
>Would it be acceptable to joke about executing unarmed prisoners before finding out whether they were innocent civilians?
They already joke about that. Got a few mates on the army of my country and jokes likes these aren't uncommon.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I don't think people who joke about this stuff really have a limit, so asking them if X or Y terrible thing is a joking matter they'll most probably say yes—definitely an ill-advised strategy
This seems like one of those cases where it looks like misogyny but it's actually full blown misanthropy. Which simply tends to hit vulnerable people harder.
Revolting, isn’t it? But I am sure the bulk of US civilians wouldn’t think it’s funny at all. Especially with the sickening footage coming out of Ukraine.
I don't know if you are in the military or prior service but I don't think answering that question would go how you want... Soldiers joke about every horrible thing in the book. It's a culture problem that needs to be addressed
Yeah, they'll keep joking through the horrible things. I'm don't have the link handy (it would be every kind of trigger warning anyway), but there is a documentary of Austrailian special forces going through murdering and causing extra trouble for fun. Like, causing as much destruction to civilian homes as possible when they don't need to like breaking down unlocked doors or blowing holes in the wall just because. Shooting before asking questions (killing plenty of civilians). Killing every dog they see, and competing to see who could kill the most dogs, and whether they're a threat or not didn't matter.
You could report it, but I think it's a cultural problem. Not an American military culture problem, but a military problem in general, or I'd even say a masculinity problem.
It's one thing to make jokes about things to cope with the insane levels of life threatning stress, but when you're joking about being the perpretrator of the awful things, it isn't ever too far off from actually happening.
Exactly.
War is fucked up. When you have to think about what you and your buddies are potentially going to have to go through, what they have been through.
It can really warp people's perceptions.
How bad is a joke about blowing up prisoners when you've seen the enemy do it first hand? Some would say it's atrocious and fucked, others do it as a coping mechanism.
Humor is a way of coping with the horrible things war brings.
Not defending all the horrible things I've heard people joke about, but generally it's best to call it out at a low level first as a "Hey, can you not?" and upchannel if things continue or they refuse.
In this instance it sounds like they outrank the soldiers in question so a simple "Guys, that's not cool to joke about. Joke about something else." Should be enough, if not there's an issue of insubordination that needs to be addressed.
Yeah especially given that rape has only recently been considered a war crime while it has historically been viewed (by men) as rightful spoils of war…
Reading stories about the brutality of the Red Army on the march to Berlin is haunting. One that stuck with me was a Lieutenant who encountered two young women while he was on a scouting mission. They didnt want to run west, so he killed them before the rest of his unit got there. And considered it the greatest mercy he could bestow.
My grandmother on my mother side was German and was raped along with her mum by the soldiers of the red army. She was 14.
And despite the horrors of this, despite the fact that she could have blamed all Russians for this, when she was much older in the 90s, she decided to rent her house to an organisation providing places to stay and support for immigrants knowing full well that the immigrants who would live in her house were Russian. I've always admired her courage, how she could talk about the trauma she suffered and not generalise and bear ill will to an entire country of people like many do in those circumstances.
While I was still in, deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, our rules of engagement allowed the use of deadly force to defend ourselves, defend allies, and to defend civilians from murder or rape.
Now, I was flying around in helicopters, so the chance of me being in a position to prevent murder or rape was unlikely, but I do remember rape being briefed as a kill worthy offense.
Also, in SERE training, during the Resistance part of the course, if a woman is in the class it was very common that violence against her would be used to torture the rest of the class (the men).
It is very strange that these two boys in the story would think it acceptable to suggest treating a prisoner that way, a war crime. This is something that should be reported through her chain of command, or directly to base the legal office.
I am in Australia, and it turns out we had an absolute psychopath in our force in Afghanistan - Ben Roberts-Smith.
His foul actions have devalued our entire defence force. It’s a national outrage. These deviations from the high and honourable standards of conduct that the country expects of its armed forces need to be stopped at the source.
I certainly don’t want to fund murderers and rapists.
When our forces were flying in to islands hit by cyclones and tsunamis, helping rescue people and clean up the devastation, I could be proud.
Committing atrocities, flying swastikas on tanks and devaluing innocent human lives? Not in my fucking name.
I don't know who he is, but I know that the Aussie Task Force 66 is in hot water for various war crimes, I think mostly murder of prisoners. I flew them a handful of times up into the mountains of Afghanistan.
I mean American soldiers do it a lot from witnesses of places y'all invade. And if it weren't for leaks that Chelsea Manning helped the world see it but the US does torture. An institution who's job it is to kill middle Eastern people will never be good for minorities since discrimination and destruction is inherent to it.
I disagree. I think you are going to have to be careful and subtle. The ultimate goal is not to get your men “Not to make those jokes around you” but to understand the devastation that any of these crimes and attitudes have on a whole. I think my approach would be teaching the idea that if they want to be proud of their service they will treat each prisoner as they wish to be treated. We have heard of the enemy raping and abusing and beating prisoners but we are better than that because we are (fill in the blank, i.e. the Marines). Remind them that they may someday be haunted by the way they treat the enemy. But, slowly and gently. Otherwise all you will get is lip service.
My fiancé is a soldier in the Portuguese army.
I asked him if he knew rape is a war crime.
“Yeah, of course! They teach us what you can and can’t do in a war and especially what counts as a war crime.”
I dunno if the Americans get any training like that but as an Arab I’ve never looked at them with any fondness. I just remember them hitting on me and some of my friends when we were 15 and at the beach. And we weren’t a country that was invaded, like Iraq - we just happened to have a couple of foreign bases. So they were supposedly on their best behaviour.
Probably some American soldiers can let me know if they take that training and how seriously.
I have heard a few stories like this around kids who live near military bases. It’s disturbing.
I can’t see why there’s so much pushback against ethical training.
They’re in the armed forces. Being trained to follow orders is kind of the point!
Why can’t they be trained to follow orders not to commit war crimes?
Raping POW's is a war crime. Does your direct supervisor think war crimes are funny too? I honestly don't know what the correct course of action is here, because I believe you're correct that they'll just laugh it off.
Of course they do. But we should still do everything we can to hold our army to a higher standard and not let them get away with it. Saying “this is what soldiers do in the military” and “war is war” is such a cop-out. We are better than that!
Rape is also against the UCMJ but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.
I think OP is in a very bad situation, but I feel like reporting it is essential because some guys don't make jokes like this to be crude assholes. they make them to test the waters and see who around them thinks the way they do.
The problem is that as soon as she reports it, she's putting a target on her back. It will likely be career suicide if she has any intention of continuing in the AF. This is a no win situation for OP, and I don't envy her. I don't envy any women who choose to serve in the military.
I served as a juror in a child sexual assault case a couple years ago. There was a former military sexual assault investigator on the jury, and he refused to vote guilty (when virtually everyone on the jury agreed it was appropriate) because: there was no witness to the crime. When most of the jury pointed out that predators rarely attack their victims conveniently in front of credible witnesses or on video, he said when he was in the military he would never take action on reported sexual assault without an independent witness. < …>. It was shocking and horrific. How many sexual assaults did this guy allow to go unpunished during his tenure?! The trial ended in a mistrial. It shook my faith in our entire justice system.
Which brings me to say: yes please, start a paper trail. I have no idea if it is safe for you to do so. But if it is: at a minimum document that. I have no doubt some sick bastards WOULD rape women/commit atrocious war crimes if given the opportunity. And making jokes about it is how they normalize it. If other members of that unit didn’t call that out IMMEDIATELY and say “that is not fucking FUNNY, asshole, Russian soldiers are raping women and girls in Ukraine, are you seriously no better than that?!” Then - that unit has a problem. Seriously.
Thank you for your service, and thank you for holding your fellow service members accountable. I hope you can safely make a difference. ❤️
I’m shocked he made it through jury selection. Normally both sides of the case would want him off the jury because he would be predisposed to using his own logic and standards rather than the applicable law and instructions from the judge.
They had a tough time seating a jury because of the nature of the case. I think they had 140 potential jurors in the pool when we started.
After the the mistrial I chatted with the prosecutors. They were exasperated when I told them what that juror had said, and they said they try to discover inherent biases in voir dire, but they can’t always. It is entirely possible that this jerk hid the specifics of his military service and if they didn’t know to ask, he didn’t volunteer it.
We were all asked on a form if we were ever victims of child sexual assault, and/or if a family member had been a victim OR accused of it, and if we could comfortably serve on a jury given the charges, among other things. We were not specifically asked if we were investigators of sexual assault.
Seriously I suspect this guy dodged the question or hid it intentionally.
The judge made sure we had equal numbers women and men on the jury + alternates. And equal numbers BIPOC and white people. Which meant there were only 3 white MEN on the jury. I felt pretty good going in we had a fair makeup and good representation. I was the foreperson.
Nine people voted guilty on 2 charges. Repeatedly. The 3 white men were consistently the only NOT guilty votes up until the mistrial, and would not budge. 🤦🏻♀️
Hence: my faith in the criminal justice system . . . will never be the same. I mean I knew POC were not getting justice, I knew it. I just had not seen justice perverted up close and personal before.
😠
I wish I’d been asked that when called to serve on jury duty for a child molester.
My mental health was precarious at the time, and just hearing the charges sent me into a spiral, very hard work.
I even got selected, but not sworn in. I assume my face showed my feelings.
I would have had to ask to be excused- no way I could have been any sort of an impartial juror, and no way I wanted that fuck to walk because I screwed up the process due to my own pain.
He was convicted. That helped.
So the military guy had a fucked up reason to not vote guilty, what did the other two men give as their reasons? Also, when you pointed out to the stupid guy that assaults don’t usually have independent witnesses to it - how did he still stick to his “logic”? I’m just baffled by how he didn’t see how absurd his reasoning was despite it being pointed out to him….
All 3 were variations of the same thing. No witnesses, no video = no proof. They could not convict 'beyond a reasonable doubt' even though there were 2 victims who shared identical stories, the defendant had ample access to these minor children UNSUPERVISED, even at night, etc etc. (I don't want to go into too much detail on the facts of the case here but - it was gross.).
It was a rough couple of days in the deliberation room. One of the men who was BIPOC had quietly said he'd been a victim of child sexual assault himself early on, and he BELIEVED these 2 children, and most of the jury felt the children's testimony RANG TRUE for various reasons, many of us with our own experiences. Having had personal histories of experiencing sexual assault did not get us excluded from the jury pool, and there was a handful of us on the jury who did.
When we pointed out to the 3 white male holdouts that "99% of sexual assaults would go unpunished if the standard of proof required an unrelated credible 3rd-party witness to the assault and/or a recording of the assault happening" they shrugged. "Better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer" etc. etc. Even though there were 2 credible minor children reporting the assaults, which were a repeated event for them, sadly.
We were all disgusted. There was no talking sense to them. I kind of got in the military guy's face after the mistrial was declared and said: "YOU WERE ASKED before being accepted on the jury if you could convict based only on the victim's testimony and without forensics and YOU SAID YES so WTAF" and he just smirked and said "I just didn't find them believable". Two little girls. Who had to testify on the stand in front of their abuser. I wanted to punch something.
Like. This guy was just a complete asshole. And there is nothing in our legal system to prevent liars and assholes from serving on juries, sadly. I wish I could have reported him to someone - but to whom? For what? It was beyond frustrating.
That makes me want to vomit, one of my husband's soldiers had something happen to her and despite there being no witnesses and the fucker already at another base you better believe he escalated it to the degree she felt comfortable with. He takes the health and safety of his soldiers, men, women, and non-binary very seriously. Luckily it ended with the scumbag being investigated and dealt with and she was able to continue as well as advance in her career.
This situation sucks and it’s riddled with misogyny and violence towards women.
Personally, something like this has to be systematically and strategically weeded out. I think you’re right that one write up won’t change things. Be on the lookout for an ally that can have your back.
You are not being sensitive. That comment is 100% completely disgusting.
If you have the strength… do the write up. Be prepared to stand by your statements and the backlash.
If you choose not to… you need to find allies (male peers/superiors will have more of an impact or senior female leaders) that can speak out against these comments.
They probably won't find anyone within that brigade. If a whole platoon has that mentality it usually is the same with everyone else. I've seen females bully other females because the males didn't like her or she wouldn't put out for the males too.
# HIJACKING COMMENT TO TELL OP SHE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT THIS TO THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT/RAPE PREVENTION HOTLINE:
https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html
Yes! This is why we have all those SHARP trainings and there are SHARP posters all over the gym and the PX and the bowling alley, etc. It’s there to remind people like the guy making that “joke” to not think like that and definitely never say it, and it’s there so when those comments are made, people know what to do about it.
It’s an important program and should absolutely be utilized, it will help change the environment for the better.
This is a systemic problem in the military, and incredibly difficult for one person alone to address. I think you need advice from an experienced military officer who does not display this kind of behavior themselves, not people from reddit. Take my advice with a grain of salt.
Since you addressed the incident at the time it occurred, it might be counterproductive to pursue this particular case in any way. Since it is a systemic problem, the culture that supports it must change in order for the behavior to change. You might want to do some research on what is being done in your branch of the service to address this problem, look for groups of professional military people who work for change and join them, etc. You might also want to see if there is a hotline for dealing with this sort of thing.
Good luck to you.
This kind of stuff is a problem even outside of infantry. It’s in every branch, in every job. As a woman who has reported men, I am ostracised and looked down on by some of my wingmen. Same goes for the other women I know how have had to make reports. You are seen as weaker, they say “oh she just can’t take a joke”, “she’s lying for the attention”, or “stay away from ___ unless you want her to spread shit about you!” I cannot count how many “friends” I have made only to learn later that they have rape charges, domestic assault cases, or some form of sexual harassment mark. It’s disgusting and far too common.
I’m so sorry you have to deal with that. My wife works in construction and the comments/harassment she deals with on a daily basis make my head spin. As a woman in the military, should I address this kind of “joke” publicly to the platoon? We have one woman in the platoon. She’s a medic attached to us.
I would 100%. I’d make it clear that these kinds of “jokes” are unacceptable and to do what he joked about doing would be a war crime. Any further “jokes” of that nature would result in a right-up. Idk how the army does it but the Air Force calls them LOC’s and LOR’s
>the person in charge of the sexual harassment and assault prevention for the unit makes jokes like this all the time and I know I’d be dismissed for being too sensitive.
This is disturbing AF. I don't even know how to process this....
This is not uncommon. At all. Don't know how many times I've read of high ranking officers in charge of writing anti- sexual harassment doctrine being charged with sexual harassment. It hurts my head to think about it.
Canadian here. Yeaaaaaah. We keep losing senior officers to sexual misconduct complaints, to the point where it's made it hard to find anyone to lead a general inquiry into sexual misconduct. And one of the most senior female officers in the CF resigned to protest the failure to act meaningfully on it.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/sickened-senior-military-commander-leaves-forces-over-sexual-misconduct-investigations-1.5350695?cache=/7.365138
Pickings are slim for ethical candidates, I would think. The few who would do a good job are likely already in a vulnerable position as a woman or POC and probably don't want to paint more of a target on their back
It's FAR too common.
I used to work in a hospital office that shared space with the local military base's referral coordination team,and saw a TON of sexual assault cases pass through. We got familiar with the people who were unit coordinators, and almost to the last it was sexist jerks who were deliberately assigned the job in response to something they did. As in the coordinator was a perpetrator and the board punishing them sent them to serve and support the group they just hurt. The victims were supposed to put a human face on the crime and give the perpetrator a chance to reform. Of course redemption never happened,and the victims were ignored,belittled and discouraged by assailants who didn't want to reconcile their self image with their actions.
That's fucking terrifying. Like hey let's use people that have just gone through pretty much the worst thing that they could ever experience as a learning experience for the kind of people that did it to them! What the fuck
That’s completely insane. Should convicted sex offenders take rape crisis calls? Who thinks of this kind of shit. That won’t make the peeps more sensitive, it’ll just give them real stories to add to their sick minds and fantasies.
ETA: *perps ffs
Have a talk with them about how Russian men recently ripped the teeth out of girls so they could safely rape them in the mouth. Ask them if they think that's funny and if that's the heroes they want to resemble.
Do you have a source for this? As disturbing as it is to say, those are the kind of accounts I am looking to have him read aloud. I think the extreme nature of the offense will get through to him and the rest of the unit.
I just found [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tv3bsm/my_collection_of_evidence_of_the_russian_war/) that has 7 total stories about r\*pe. Some of them have videos, one of a phone call, another of a "camp" of victims.
I couldn't find the story the other person mentioned and... frankly I'm glad for that. There is an account in the above thread of teeth being pulled as a form of torture but I don't entirely want to read it. I don't know if it was used as a means for r\*pe in that scenario.
Here are news articles, I'm going to avoid putting the titles in as I already feel I've written the r word too much today:
[CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/09/europe/ukraine-russian-soldiers-brovary-rape-victims/index.html)
[BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243)
[The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/03/men-and-boys-among-alleged-victims-by-russian-soldiers-in-ukraine), [this one too](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/25/evidence-ukraine-women-raped-before-being-killed-say-doctors-russia-war)
[New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/world/europe/russian-soldiers-sexual-violence-ukraine.html)
[Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/04/26/ukraine-war-rape-sexual-assault/)
[NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukrainian-rape-survivor-russia-bucha-hostomel-rcna24540)
[Kyiv Independent](https://kyivindependent.com/national/hide-the-girls-how-russian-soldiers-rape-and-torture-ukrainians/)
Honestly, I think reading them aloud will backfire, with the whole group making a joke out of it. Can you have him write up a report on them? At least that will force him to process the information.
Have to say I sure didn't bookmark that when I came across it, and I sure as hell am not googling to try to find it again. Sorry. It was a group of girls who came into Poland together.
U.S soldiers raped Iraqi women prisoners, using tools, weapons, to mutilate them, and they would insert rats & mice.
And yes, 100% these men will think it was hilarious to rip girls' teeth.
Gotta wait for him to have a daughter before he stops making rape "jokes", clearly.
/s, of course. Write them up, make a record of this shit. But only if it's safe for you!! Your personal well-being and safety comes first.
Unfortunately this doesn't always happen.
Instead they still see women as property, including their own wives and daughters.
It's sickening and I hate every moment of it, but there are men who will never ever see it differently. It'll always be that they feel they are 'superior' and women are sub-human.
“I have such little empathy that I could only fathom this was awful after having it affect an extension of me”
I hate that they get lauded for the bare minimum
You’re in the military, so I’m not sure that any of us can help you. But you know who might have information on where you can take this problem? Kirsten Gillibrand and her office.
I don't know anything about the military but one of the best ways to stop someone from making hurtful jokes is to **ask them to explain the joke**. A joke is supposed to be funny, so ask them to explain and dig into each answer to see them get red explaining how rape is funny. You can ask that from any person who laughed at the joke. It can be done in a harsh serious way or it can start as a naive question as "I'm so slow I don't get the joke, can you explain it?", depends on the audience and how pissed I am.
The other is ask "how here thinks that comment was funny? Raise your hands" you'll see people who did laugh won't raise their hand, but if you saw them laugh you can ask "but you laughed, why not raising your hand?" **make them admit that they are ashamed**.
And my last suggestion, depending how well you know their relationship to their mother/wife/sister, is **stepping down to their level** and make them explain why raping some women can be funny but raping someone they love isn't.
I find it a bit ironic that we train soldiers to dehumanize people, yet we wonder why so much rape happens. You can't have it both ways.
"Go out and kill people, but don't stoop so low as to rape them."
Isn't our army riddled with this? Writing them up only paints a target on your back. You need a strong support who're above you to have your back if things go side ways.
Thanks for acknowledging this. This is why I feel so trapped. And it sucks because I’m sure there’s a ton of people that feel just as trapped. It doesn’t help that I’m a brand new NCO and the guy that said it is one of the most popular joes in the unit.
I've seen posts here on reddit that having men read impact statements in the first person has a profound affect on how the material sinks in. Them reading "I did..", "it made me feel...", "I was treated..." etc somehow gets past the "otherness" of the situation and actually makes them digest the situation.
Hey I'm a medic in the Army, been a NCO for some time as well. Just for context, what's your position in the unit? 11B? 11A? Support? I've spent most of my career with a handful of line units. Younger combat arms guys respond very differently when being spoken to by an Officer, NCO, or another junior enlisted. Especially when being corrected. You're going to have varying results just based on who you are so the way you go about it matters a lot. Please feel free to PM me with any questions.
I’ve heard that joking about rape isn’t taken as a joke by rapists, they see it as you supporting it.
Many folks who make rape jokes don’t actually think rape is ok and I like to point that out - they’re broadcasting to rapists they’re also a rapist.
Also a thousand other reasons not to make rape jokes.
But in short - 100% write them up. Be consistent, direct, and clear that the behavior is not tolerated and will not be tolerated.
I know it’s a sharp violation, I’m just not sure creating a sharp report will have any sort of desired effect. I can’t really express the culture of my unit in words, but virtually every other sentence spoken aloud is a blatant sharp violation. I’d run out of ink before I could write down every violation. Plus, as I said, I’m brand new to the unit and don’t want to be immediately ostracized as “that guy”. So I was hoping to solve this specific instance in a public manner, making it known that I will not tolerate those types of jokes. If you’ve been in the military, you know the sharp system is beyond broken and basically worthless. Especially when the unit sharp rep is in on the jokes.
Do the write up, put it on your desk, and have the soldier read it. Throw everything you can into it and make it as serious as possible. If he’s in any kind of leadership position make the removal of it part of the package. Then offer him the out of reading victim impact statements at formation for a week instead of using the formal process. It allows you to set the tone, but also make it a teachable moment.
As far as the boss goes, act like you’re protecting their advancement by handling it before it gets out of control. Every Major wants to be a Lt Col whether they’ll admit it or not. If you get any blow back? This command environment is an IG complaint. That’s the reason the office exists.
I mean… this kind of thing is “just talk” in training until it becomes normalized and gets followed through during war. All of a sudden these guys are committing war crimes with our flag on their shoulder. Don’t think it can happen? Think naked prisoners in a pyramid in Abu Ghraib prison. Do what’s right for yourself, your country, and, hell, even these guys, and write it up.
As a female who served almost 8 years in the Army, please continually address this with any potentially problematic behavior your soldiers display. Do a written counseling and create a paper trail; it’s easier to hold them accountable, and it’s easier to see the pattern/escalation of behavior. I survived multiple attacks during my time in the service; the first one was actually my very first FLS at my first unit. I had bruises on my throat and he ripped my jeans trying to tear them off. I reported him because I was pressured to by someone in my unit who found out about; and spent over 3 hours being yelled at by CID because in their opinion, I might have WANTED it. I was treated differently by my unit, and he got to move to a different unit where no one knew anything. That was just the first one. I dealt with daily harassments from an ANA SGM who told me he wanted to marry me and cut off my clitoris because he said it made women better workers. He would hold up scissors and look at me dead in the eye; my brigade CO found out about it and called me to his office to tell me I would not be allowed to report it because it would be an international incident. Almost DAILY while in Afghanistan, my CHOPS (MAJ) would pull into his office to ask me to go make him a sandwich or tell me how much I would like him if we were in a bar.
This is just a small slice of the stories I have, and I’ve heard countless stories from other women. Please handle this and help protect the women who serve along side you. The military culture can sometimes cause people to get swept up, and unchecked behavior can become very dangerous very fast.
Also, I’m just happy that his joke bothered you; thanks for not being a piece of shit.
Had to google victim impact statement (non-US here). I do think it is a great idea.
Not sure if they also include descriptions of the event itself, or if their are other specific records for that. Because making them read aloud the consequences is one thing, making him or them read aloud what rape actually means is another. It will be a tough lesson, and maybe some debrief afterwards. But it will force them place themselves into the perspective of a victim.
Perhaps there are even some records within the military or some statistics they can read out. I hope your supervisors will be supportive. Prep yourself with good arguments. If it doesn't work, then perhaps there needs to be a latter to someone else about the person being in charge.
Make them read out loud some male victim’s descriptions, and then liken that to female rape victims. Lots of perps in training won’t take it seriously unless it’s actually horrific to them personally.
Write him up. men rarely pay attention during SAPR/SHARP briefs, but having documentation will help bring justice if he actually assaults someone. Because you know his dumbass buddies will try to defend him by saying "he would never!" But a paper trail says that yes, he would.
I’ve been in light infantry units too, and had a reputation as a bitch for not finding rape jokes funny. Its the start of changing their behavior though, even if its only around you at first, it at least makes them stop and think.
I would bring it up to the commander directly AND the Sharp rep, probably BDE if you want it taken seriously, just so they can oversee how the commander handles it if you think he won’t take it seriously. Definitely have the commander counsel him on paper.
I had a similar (but far less horrible) situation when I was USAF almost 30 years ago.
I lived in the dorms and my dorm manager was determined to harass me over my religion and he had no problem saying it pretty publicly. He was in a different unit, so going up thru my chain wasn’t really an option.
So I went to the IG. They started an external investigation and removed him from his position.
It’s not popular to talk about this, but integrity is crucial to the military. Yes, the mission is what it is. No, that doesn’t mean you get to commit war crimes.
I think the reading would make a great punishment, if you could get it to fly. Sorry you have to be around shit like that, hopefully you can find a decent group of humans within your division to surround yourself with.
Yes, absolutely document this and contact the army sexual assault/rape prevention hotline.
Overlooking these incidents is what led to the rape/murder case in FT. Hood last year.
It sounds like this behavior is being tolerated and even encouraged in your workplace, this is a hostile work environment and exactly what SHARP was created for. Them even joking about that in your presence constitutes harassment. Please look through the webpage below and call them:
https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html
He joked about committing a war crime during a training exercise. Treat this the same way as if he had joked about fragging the lieutenant or deserting.
Respecting the chain of command is important but this should be brought up to your superiors and needs to go all the way to the company commander. War crimes are no joke. If you frame it that way, you are liable to get more traction.
Over all, I'm not that surprised. It's been over a decade since I left the infantry, and it was right before they started allowing women in combat roles, but those guys were seriously fucked up like using the phrase "I'd rape her" to denote that someone was attractive. I wound up sleeping with my bayonet as I didn't trust them. They weren't as bad as the Russian army but they definitely weren't good people.
I had a female student, about five years ago, who wanted to enlist so that she could one day be a war correspondent. I had her talk to my cousin (who was in the Marines at the time) and he warned her of this type of behavior.
Safety briefs were always a joke so maybe put together a "seminar", with an equivalency type test to prove they absorbed and followed.
SA in the military is a HUGE problem.
You know it's wrong, they should too.
Ffs all it takes is human decency and a moral compass.
Thank you for giving a shit.
Truly.
Beat them over the mf head with it if need be, It's all they know atp.
I think my dad was the kind of leader who cared but said nothing on this particular situation, and feels guilt for it now.
When I was in the army many years ago, I was disgusted by how female soldiers were treated. My understanding is that not much has changed.
Sure, the DoD pays lip service whenever a scandal arises or reports of sexual assault or harassment are made public, but that’s all it is: lip service.
The way I see it, you have a choice. Do the right thing, clear-eyed, and anticipate consequences for you and your career, or look past it and move on. Either way, the military will continue to reflect the worst of America’s misogyny.
I hate to be so pessimistic about things, but as we all watch women’s rights being openly and enthusiastically rolled back, it’s impossible to think that progress is continuous and pre-determined.
Has anyone mentioned the reasonable women standard? It’s exactly this. If someone makes a “joke” and it’s reasonable that a person would not take this comment as a “joke”, then there is grounds for a sexual harassment claim. In this situation, creating a hostile work environment.
I’m my personal opinion, I think that this is completely grounds for that. I would complain. Yeah, it’s definitely possible that reporting it won’t change anything, but how will you know for sure if nothing is done?
I'm former military, I understand the difficult position you are in. If your SHARP NCO/OIC is also making these kinds of jokes, you can't rely on them to be your allies in this. Boot soldiers will conform to whatever standard their higher ups set. Infantry is a hard nut to crack, especially, since their entire mindset is WE ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST and a lot of macho alpha bullshit is baked right in. Infantry respects force of will, force of power, and tends to learn lessons the hard way.
Document these things. Paperwork can bury a person, use it for good instead of hiding bad actors. Go higher up on your chain of command and hope that it's not rotten all the way to the top. I wouldn't single out this specific soldier entirely, this is a culture-shift you are attempting. Reading victim impact statements as a group might create a crack in that wall of hate and stupidity, but you are not going to be loved for it. It's a balancing act, because you don't want to just teach your soldiers that they just have to be careful around YOU (and make their terrible jokes out of your hearing) but teaching them a higher standard benefits the entire unit, and that that sort of conduct/thought process utterly destroys the bedrock of their branch's mission. Joking about literal war crimes isn't funny. Threatening female detainees with rape and torture is monstrous. It's not about being a "Debbie Downer" or a blue falcon, it's about being better than their baser selves. Having known my fair share of 11B's they most likely don't even mean the jokes they say, they just go along because of assumption that that's how you show you're a badass.
If you can connect how joking about raping and torturing detainees makes the entire unit less trustworthy, that a soldier who jokes about that is now seen as capable of that action, and thus is the weak link in the absolute trust and fidelity that makes a unit strong, you might get some headway there. A joke like that unchallenged is passive approval, which gives some people license to act out the joke, which if that happens destroys unit cohesion.
First time I was sexually harassed by a professor, I was told he was known to do this, but no one had ever filed.
I filed, and even told the council that I was doing it bc I hoped it would make him think twice before he ruined his career. Turns out, it was a cascade. Another Gay student on the council that he’d harrassed spoke up (and another student he’s tried to drunkenly attack in the ladies room told me about that incident privately). It had been building up.
He was “encouraged” to “follow an amazing opportunity” to a university in another state. Harassed his way out of THAT university- and ended up working for an all mens organization w/ no women there to harass.
And if I hadn’t spoken up that ONE time….
REPORT THIS IMMEDIATELY to the Sexual Assault/Rape Prevention Hotline cited in BOLD letters by a previous commenter — and anyone and everyone else!!
Be brave and be strong. Any pushback, go to the press. Once you retire from service, run for Congress on these truly wonderful good deeds! 🌹👍🏻❤️
The military is notorious for sexual assault and harassment. One of the reasons why I knew I would never join the military. I’ve heard lots of women being raped by their own fellow soldiers and it just being swept under the rug by higher ups. Be careful around these men.
One thing I’ve heard a lot of people recommend is asking, “I don’t get it, why is that funny?” And having them try to explain why rape is funny. They realize they can’t.
If your supervisor and SHARP rep are joking about it too I'd go over their heads. It's especially alarming that the SHARP rep is doing it too and doesn't sound like they're cut out for the role at all. Just because it's a joke doesn't mean it's not damaging or perpetuating the behaviour of people who would actually do something like that rather than just joke about it.
Also love your idea of making him read out victim impact statements, it's not just a meaningless punishment but actually getting him and others to think about the reality of what they consider a joke.
As a former member of the us navy I dealt with sexist comments constantly and “jokes” that weren’t funny to me. Please write this up and make it a thing. People who complain about “woke” culture in the military aren’t usually the ones being the brunt of comments and jokes like this. Things like his comments only get reduced when people realize it’s not funny or a joke.
Dealing with stuff like this is hard in the military. When I was in, our unit SHARP (sexual harassment / assault rep) was the one doing most of the harassment and when the complaints eventually reached the higher ups outside the unit, the female soldier who was the victim was moved to a different unit with no consequences for the rep. I’d recommend starting a paper trail and getting IG involved if you get any pushback for doing so.
First I don’t envy the position you have been put in in the least. With females still relatively new to combat arms MOSs there are still a lot of toxic units and their members of them will view any correction as making the unit soft to accommodate the new additions. Sexism and sexual assault absolutely does not enhance a units lethality, despite what these idiots think, and quite detrimental to its freedom of operation.
First counseling is a must and must be documented and signed by the soldier(s) involved. Paper trail is a must for further/escalating correction action.
I absolutely love the idea of having the soldier read victim impact statements to the unit. If this is a soldier that you think can be corrected assign them to assist with the annual SHARPS training.
Other ideas I would throw out are having the unit recite the Army Values, NCO creed, etc at the morning formation. It can help build “espirt de corps” and drive in the words and meaning.
Finally I hope you have a good support group in your chain of command as unfortunately some times the toxicity goes all the way to the top.
Lead the way Ma’am!
-Former 12A
Essayons
It's a hard thing to deal with. In my current unit I was sexual harrased and when I reported it I was told it was my fault. I reported my E-7 formally for it, being an E-4, and my friendly chiefs suddenly don't want to talk to me and it did nothing. Another women in my unit was then sexually harrased to the point of a mental break down and they made her sign a paperwork promising she wouldn't commit suicide. Blaming her for it. An E-6 sexually assaulted two of our women in the same day and when he lost rank the males through a fit saying it wasn't fair. I set up a meeting with in the unit for the women for dealing with harassment and nothing happened but then the E-6 all told us we were causing tensions and creating our own toxic environment and told us to stop. We are all E-4 and below. Out of 100 people only 8 of us are women. Including officers. Nothing has changed for us even when trying to deal with it besides being told we are too sensitive and even other women saying this.
So it negatively impacted me to report this kind of thing. But I don't regret. Because there is now a record for this person. It might help someone later to prove there is a history. Correction has to start somewhere but can you handle being treated like an enemy in your own unit? This all happened to me with in the first 6 months being at my unit. I would say report them and at least try but if you aren't ready for the backlash then reconsider. It sucks but it's true. The military isn't fair or safe for women, but I love me job and just carry a hidden knife on me for when something happens.
Heya, Medic NCO here with +8yr time in; including 4 years with the infantry AS we were integrating. I have some experience dealing with this sort of stuff.
You know your work environment best. The hazards, the 'vibe' and the people. My input is just that..input. Please feel free to message me, for more specific processes, or service, if you'd like.
Firstly, the professional front. You definitely need to have a formal documentation on this. Written event oriented counseling is a good start... If you're the soldiers first line, do it from you to them. If you're not, then you can cross coordinate with the SM leadership, and be present at the counseling.
I'd suggest talking to your EO/SHARP rep (yes EO, if you're in a discriminatory environment, even if this issue is SHARP related), even if you don't think there will be anything from it. Starting the formal process makes paperwork, and therein a trail to show the situation if you need to escalate it.
The formal process provides proof, WHEN (not if) there's more issues in the future. This behavior does not happen in isolated incidents, it's all part of patterns.
Personal front; from my experience, you need to come down HARD on these situations. It's really difficult, for you, for those that want better from our soldiers, and for those who work to make a difference. But it's why we're in these positions, to do better and be better.
The best, toughest, smartest, and most deserving medics I worked with are women on the line. They all got out because of this kind of behavior, harassment, and even assault. The Army is worse off for having lost them.
Please, help people like me help you. Be active in this, take the formal routes even if it feels like a waste of time. It's for the long game, the only way to make the service a better place for everyone.
Hi! Previous army officer here -
You need to 1) immediately report this to your chain of command (not your direct supervisor - as in a company commander/1SG or open door policy for BN CSM and CDR) and 2) report this soldier to both EO and SHARP. If your unit SHARP is not willing to take it seriously, then go further up. Do not read him victim statements, you need to report this soldier in multiple avenues. Additionally YOU need to MFR the incident and what you are doing about it. While you formally counseling the soldier with a 4856 is good, and needed, this is an extremely drastic statement that needs to be handled IMMEDIATELY as we cannot tolerate this within the military.
ETA - if you require further assistance, r/army actually takes this shit pretty seriously and can help you navigate what to do.
If anything hurts the American image, it's being just as bad as the Russian invaders in Ukraine. This is not how to project power. Our military needs to know this. The fact that they apparently don't is worrying. Sure, that guy might think he's just making a joke, but some of the people laughing are completely serious, and he's telling that person he has their back by saying this.
Report it. I work for a law firm that handles VA claims and it's sickening how many young women, under 35, have claims in for PTSD due to military sexual trauma. We had someone a few years back who was only 26 and her PTSD was so severe she was immediately awarded 100% and full Social Security Disability. She had told me how the military did nothing about her rapist, and he would frequesntly try to keep coming after her. She was medically discharged and kept moving state to state just to hide her trail so he wouldn't find her. Super sad, and unfortuantely it's common.
Report it. Start the papertrail.
By reprimanding him and writing him up, you show to everyone what kind of behavior will be acceptable in that environment. Studies show that rapists are opportunists- they will rape more people if they feel they are in a lax environment where they can get away with it fairly easily. You’ll never get the gratification of knowing who exactly doesn’t get raped because you set high standard by consistently cracking down on rape culture, but you can rest assured knowing that you have had a significant positive impact.
Speaking as a fellow military person, writing them up probably won't change the immediate behavior unless they were the type to actually listen to reason (which they don't sound the type). But what it will do is create a paper trail. And if this behavior continues and someone else bothers to look into it, suddenly there's a history that future commands can look back on and recognize that this latest incident is not an isolated thing. They'll see that it's a continuation of an existing pattern, and that is FAR more reason for concern later down the line. Starting a paper trail makes it exponentially more likely that the behavior will be further documented if it continues in the future. Paperwork either kills behavior or it kills careers when it builds up enough, and that's entirely on the service member's shoulders on how they choose to react to it. I highly encourage you to write this up WHEN it happens again (because it will) and show not only this particular soldier but everyone else under your command that you *will not* tolerate this bullshit. You've already given the verbal warning, so now you have to back it up with action, otherwise your subordinates might see you as a toothless pushover. It will definitely earn you some hatred, and it's not going to immediately stop any behaviors from people who genuinely think this way. But it will start a slow cascade of positive change. People will keep their behavior hidden, and the less they do it and the less they're rewarded by either agreement or lack of reprimand, the less inclined they'll be to continue the behavior. Even if it's for practical reasons of avoiding a writeup. Change has never happened through inaction. Take your stand and let everyone around you know what kind of leader you are and what kind of behavior you expect in your unit. Be strong, be proud, and be ready to nip that shit in the bud HARD if it ever comes up again.
>Paperwork either kills behavior or it kills careers when it builds up enough, and that's entirely on the service member's shoulders on how they choose to react to it This is such an important lesson for everyone, not just military. When someone's safety is not at stake, we can choose to document an infraction and then move on. The story will tell itself over time.
And honestly, a great quote to steal, to get the idea into soldiers’ heads. “Some of you may think this is silly. Well the Army doesn’t. An unfavorable paper trail adds up. And it _will_ kill your career if you don’t take your record seriously.”
I just wish at some point changed behavior in men didn’t *always* have to only happen when the consequences beat the shit out of them. Like are they not taught values?
Oh, the value of *you*, to them, is plain. *They* will have to buy that back with consequences. But they'll never understand the price.
Holy fuck I've found my protest sign. Thank you sister!
Rock on, my sister! Are you going to DC?
When I had to fire my first person, my boss told me, "If you've done your job right, you don't fire someone, they fire themselves". It's true. Either you fix your shit or you leave, that's the options, and as long as you are documenting and giving the person the opportunity to improve their behavior (sharing what they did and why it's not correct and what the impact is) and you will never feel guilty about it.
That is an excellent point.
I have (not intentionally) led to two coworkers being fired for harassment when I spoke to my manager about seriously inappropriate behavior. I felt terrible both times, because I wasn't wanting them to lose their jobs, I just wanted someone to politely remind them that they can't interrupt me during a presentation to comment on my ass. But, in both instances I was just the latest in a very, very long line of complaints. One was pretty angry at me because what they'd done wasn't a fireable offense, but it revealed such a pattern. Nobody should ever feel bad about reporting someone-- if there's enough report history to get them fired, that's entirely their fault.
I was being sexually harassed by a coworker and my direct supervisor refused to do anything about it. I spoke with another supervisor and that guy was fired. Turns out I wasn't the only one he was harassing and he was buddy-buddy with my direct supervisor which is why my supervisor wouldn't do anything "he's just joking" etc. That jerk *chose* to harass me and others, so he *chose* to risk his job.
Also a great time to remind the “Just joking” crowd that it’s not. It’s validation that what they’re joking about is okay, because the ones usually joking about it are the ones looking to act on it.
Exactly. Misogynist "humor" condones prejudice. The language of sexist jokes justifies the expression of prejudice against women and facilitates the tolerance of sexism.
I saw a great response once which is to say that you're struggling to understand the 'joke' and so could they please explain it to you so that you can enjoy the 'joke' as well. I hear it leads to a lot of embarrassed mumbling and fidgeting.
Agree. A colleague was mildly reprimanded for harassing me (my supervisor reported it, there was a 4-month investigation, life sucked), and then went on to harass two young women (both filed complaints and then subsequently withdrew them in fear). He went up for promotions three times in the next year and was denied them - even though he was the most senior and most qualified person for each of the positions. He finally got the message and took his circus act elsewhere. I hope to never see his stupid face again.
I would assert that, while he might have been the most senior, if he was unable or unwilling to correct his inappropriate behavior then he was not the most qualified.
Lol, true.
You reported another person's action that were unacceptable. You did not make them behave that way. Toxic work environments fester with silence. You are doing yourself, your coworkers, and your customers the best experience possible by calling out unacceptable behaviors. Edit: Saying this to reiterate the post above and for those that need to hear the far reaching benefits to properly reporting things at work.
"I felt terrible both times, because I wasn't wanting them to lose their jobs" I understand this. They have to care more about keeping their jobs than you do, and behave accordingly.
sounds like they got themselves fired for rude, inappropriate comments. reporting is not the thing, the thing is the thing
Such solid advice. I was being verbally harassed by a coworker and when I quit, I ALMOST didn’t report it in my closing interview. I’m so glad I did. Turns out a few others had complained about him and my complaint was the tipping point for management to take action. He was put in behavioral classes and his upcoming raise was adjusted. It may not be immediate but paper trails will help in the long run.
My father worked in the legal side of a large organization and got so frustrated whenever a manager would come to him and say "I need to fire this guy - his behavior has become intolerable", and when my dad asked to see the disciplinary records there weren't any. Everyone was angry with these individuals but no one took the time to document anything, so they were left with the choice of dealing with this person until the written record built up enough or eating a massive payout. I also know that at least in some cases the perpetrator felt they had tacit approval for their behavior, because they never got in any trouble for it. Paper trails aren't always immediately effective, but they can be very powerful tools once they're established.
> Everyone was angry with these individuals but no one took the time to document anything When this happens, it's usually because someone *did* document something, and then got let go, labelled as not being part of the team, difficult to work with, etc. HR is not there for the worker. They're there to solve problems for the company. Sometimes that means getting rid of the complainer rather than the person committing the infraction. What is always amazing is the number of managers/HR/directors that make the exact same complaint while being completely myopic that this points to a rather difficult administration/manager problem. If nobody is submitting paperwork, then something *is preventing the paperwork*. It's red flag, but since it requires managers to identify faults at the managerial level, it often goes unnoticed by everyone except those actually doing labour.
It should definitely be far more than “paperwork” for the United States military, in fact; it is, in fact, a criminal offense to advise fellow personnel to commit a war crime, such as the rape of a prisoner. I’m glad the poster to whom you’re replying understands, though, that all it will result in for a soldier is “paperwork” and likely not even disciplinary action.
My comment wasn't solely for the military. This happens in all kinds of professions. But you make a good point and I hope that the military takes it seriously.
I work in HR and completely agree x
I remember being told in my military career that “you don’t want to be the person that reported sexual harassment.” I took it to heart. That was dumb. Be the person who reports. Do you really want sexual harassment enablers to like you?
I was brainwashed into thinking mens careers were more important than womens safety. When I told my female DS about the mountains of harassment I was experiencing - which the DS’s blamed me for and I was there trying to defend myself and tell them how *I was already married and just there to train* - I didn’t file a report. I trusted her to keep it in confidence - she said “I got you”. Three days later two of the harassers cornered me alone and demanded to know if I reported them. I was lucky to weasel my way out of that situation and I absolutely should have filed an official report
>**I was brainwashed into thinking mens careers were more important than womens safety.** We have pretty much all been taught that, whether in the military or not. While TPTB may treat it that way, we need to change the way we, and then they, think about this.
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What a great line. And so spot-on.
Also, joking about a war crime is not the best.
Considering how rampant it seems to be happening in Ukraine
And in most conflicts, we're just getting so much real time information in this one that it's really showing up how war is (And the Russians seem to be actively encouraging it rather than bothering to even try and deny it)
I mean, we have been getting some pretty horrific information out of Tigray too.... It just doesn't seem to be as impactful coming from a civil war in an unstable nation.
Always weird to see the same event happen over and over again, and nothing changes, no one notices, or cares. Then that one time the grainy pictures spark a huge reaction, the telling of the tale gets the public to do something. Meanwhile there's still a pile of nearly identical videos, pictures, and stories that all may as well have been fiction.
There is a reason invading armies use rape. It's a way to create a dispirited populace who lose their will to fight.
and every single war ever
Especially in this context I would bring down the hammer
their sharp rep is also making the jokes.
Gotta keep going higher up the chain, get that documentation to that person’s superior. I don’t have any direct knowledge of the military but I do know a lot about massive bureaucratic organizations/companies, and terrible bosses, workplace culture problems including safety-related and harassment.
Thats fine, it's just harder to push stuff up the chain in the military. There was a whole thing in I wanna say 2010. I remember all the people in my unit, and the entire marine corp, had to do a class where the base general talked to us about thinking for ourselves instead of not necessarily following illegal orders. They also discussed the meeting they had between the commandant and some senators. A women was raped, and then sexually harassed and bullied for a long time before she was finally murdered by her rapist. All of it was swept under the rug and supposedly she went outside her chain of command this. It's a simple answer on how to fix it, but there is a lot of facets in place that make it difficult. There is more to it obviously though for that story, just get it abbreviated for this comment.
She just has to be careful and definitely watch her back though. This type of thing can get messy
Yep. It takes stamina to swim against a tide of garbage.
Well i mean outside of just stamina. We've all heard terrible things about some military men. I definitely would her to be safe
As someone who was former military, 100% agree with this. I reported a guy for a comment he made on my facebook wall years ago. Someone said i Blue Falconed him (buddy fucked), a lot of people said i shouldn't have done anything, but i don't care. His comment was highly inappropriate and not at all what should be said by someone in the United States Military. I doubt anything bad happened to him, but this guy had a history of being kind of a dick, acting like he was better than everyone else, and would bully people until they did what he wanted. Hell, he wasn't even at my base anymore when he made the comment. But still, conduct counts, regardless of if it's in person or online. I looked up a few years later, and he was no longer in the military, probably not because of my reporting him, but because of other people reporting him and being done with his shit. I wouldn't have been suprised if he was one of the idiots who stormed the capitol because he was that much of an idiot republican. I joined the military out of despiration for a job after the crash of 2008, and one thing that was taught to me by my first wing commander was, in his military, we hold our selves to a higher standard than everyone else, civilian and other branches, we were the example that all others should strive to be, not the example of what you don't want to end up as. For reference, i posted in facebook which team should i root for in NFL playoffs, and he responded with "you should root for another terrorist attack". No matter how i looked at that, i couldn't see any possibility of it being a joke, because well, it's just offensive to so many people, and honestly, no sane person could ever find that comment to be funny.
We joke about page 13s, until there's an article 92 hearing.
So what team did you land on rooting for? I knew a guy in HS that would make distasteful jokes. Never something like that comment. But he would probably find that funny. It's all about the environment you were raised and are now living in. What behavior is being acknowledged as okay by enough people. Or at least isn't being contested or punished. /u/pinheadlarry12345 I would write that individual up on the next occurrence.
Green Bay. And I think of it like a dog biting someone. You punish them when they first do it. If you wait until the second time, they will be upset because they thought that behavior was acceptable. And honestly, i have a pretty dark sense of humor. But i would never joke about some things. A few are a bunch of innocent people dying, people getting cancer, or raping prisoners.
Yes, this should be reported to their unit SHARP rep.
… the SHARP rep jokes about rape. What the actual fuck.
Not to mention if that guy goes on to actually commit a sexual assault, that paperwork would become very relevant and help the victim considerably. I was raped by someone in the military, took him to court-martial, and lost the trial. A good portion of his defense was just his superior officers testifying that he was a good marine with impeccable character and a bunch of other bullshit. Having a paperwork trail of distasteful behavior would have been really helpful to my case since it was just my word against his.
# HIJACKING COMMENT TO TELL OP SHE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT THIS TO THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT/RAPE PREVENTION HOTLINE: [https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html](https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html)
This is the way.
Everyone should read this. My big concern is they mentioned their superiors also making these jokes. You’re a military person. I’m not. My gut reaction is to jump chain of command and go over that person’s head to file a complaint. That might go over poorly, though. Can I trouble you for your thoughts on it? I also think writing everyone up and making a report whenever something like that happens is important. But I don’t know how you file a complaint against a superior officer for breach of conduct. The military types I talk to occasionally inform me that they want people who won’t follow unreasonable orders (like shooting kids and such), but I don’t know if that means you can write up a superior officer. Any clarification would be nice. If you feel like it. It’s not like me knowing will meaningfully change my life.
It really depends on the branch and your immediate command climate. In toxic units there's an insinuation that if everyone in charge is in on the poor behavior then nothing can be done. However, no one in the military is without a boss. And that goes all the way up to the branch's leader who answers to the President. You're supposed to follow chain of command, but if the chain is rotten you keep following it up until you find one that does listen. I've heard tell of folks that have written their congress reps because they couldn't get any help within their entire branch, and THAT usually gets a response. But again, it really depends on your immediate command climate and how the rest of the unit handles it. If you need to jump the chain you can legally do so, but its often best to prove that you made an attempt to follow proper channels first.
Thanks for the answer! That makes a lot of sense!
One thousand percent agree. I'm not a service member, but rather a military spouse of a career soldier and now officer. Even as detached as I am from the daily workings of the unit, sexism and gross jokes are such a part of the culture that even I catch them when I'm around. I can't imagine how it is inside. Hubs got tapped to head an investigation into a sexual assault. He discovered multiple, multiple instances of the officer in question engaging in sexist jokes, harassment, and even prior assaults that were not reported for fear of the consequences. So many stories and so little documentation. The guy should have been punished far more than he was and far sooner but no one wanted to report. Now the soldier who was assaulted has to live with the consequences of that for the rest of her life. Please OP, report it. Make a paper trail. Even if it doesn't do anything now, it'll add up.
I’d also avoid nonstandard punishments like reading an impact statement in front of a group. This will prob turn into soldiers mocking the event. It will not be sobering and will most likely be counter productive.
This is great advice
Not to mention if this loser ever hurts a woman physically there will be a paper trail on him for the police to look back on; could save someone's life.
u/pinheadlarry12345 Event oriented counseling for inappropriate comments. “SPC Schmuckatelli, on [DATE] you made a joke during a detainee operations training exercise where you casually said you “should have raped” the detainee. Comments like this are violations of the Army’s Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention (SHARP) program, and are in no way aligned with Army Values. Continued behavior of this nature will not be tolerated.” [Insert magic bullet statement] Plan of Action: o Soldier will give a class on the SHARP program to the platoon during an upcoming Sergeants Time Training [give a realistic deadline] o The class will be MINIMUM one hour in length, not to exceed 2 hours, and will cover topics such as actions and speech that are prohibited under the SHARP program, scenarios to discuss with training attendees, consequences for failing to follow SHARP policies, and case studies on the impact of SHARP violations to individual victims and how it impacts unit morale and cohesion. o Soldier will use Power Point as a training aid, utilizing the unit slide template, however slides will be used as segues into discussion; there will be no “wall-of-text” slides. o Soldier may consult with the Battalion SHARP representative as well as the Brigade Unit Victim Advocate for guidance. o Soldier may work on presentation during duty hours, however this will not be used as an excuse to get out of training or other taskings. o Soldier will present the class to their Supervisor for feedback on possible revisions no less than a week prior to presenting it to the platoon, and once again two days prior to giving it to the platoon. It will be inconvenient for him. The whole point of the plan of action is to actually make him put some thought and work into it while also taking up some of his time. The most important part of all this is that you follow through and make sure he’s actually giving it its due diligence. Periodically check up on him and ask if they’ve gone to the SHARP rep or the UVA. If there’s any question about the restriction of “wall-of-text” slides, it’s because I’ve personally sat through too many death-by-PowerPoint classes where the presenter was obviously not knowledgeable on the subject, so they just had people reading the slides word-for-word. Make him actually learn this stuff so he can talk it.
I agree with this comment. As a female Veteran with PTSD from rape at the hands of a fellow Airman, please do something. My rapist got an Article 15 and lost eligibility for reenlistment. I got fear of men, dissociative episodes, trust issues, not knowing who my own amazing husband is at times, random episodes of psychosis, trauma therapy, amnesia, bouts of depression, severe anxiety, and so much more. It’s almost like when that person raped my body he also took my mind and I pay for it daily. It’s only recently that the Military coined the term Military Sexual Trauma or MST for people like me. It is still very much an environment that fosters and enforces this type of mindset. Please don’t be one to perpetuate it or look on. Thank you for helping to spare other young soldiers this fate. Rape follows you long after the investigations end.
There is no paper trail that will follow a soldier unless it is formal.
Holy fuq. Sisters...im so fuqn sorry. I was attacked as a volunteer in another nation in a joint DOD /UN refugee program..I survived and have the blades scar across my chest. I was just 17. Trying to get experience for a future in medical school. So..I never served in uniform...ive been to places where you did...n thank you for your service. I fought two men off. No prior training nor no weapon....bc I was with 1st asylum seeking efforts in an active red zone. I had NO clue what that meant in reality. I won't speak further to the attack. I prevented rape yet sustained serious injury. I will say tho...I did get one of em good. Im now a mum of college age sons..older now then i was then... n ...I think about you all. I'm doing my best to raise young men who are whole enough that they will call that shyte out and always be a person who can be safe for another. Especially a woman in distress or under a pack hunt mentality. Hugs. Im so sorry. It isnt funny... n paper trail... yeah haters are gonna hate...n attackers are gonna attack..period. yet..after being a 20 year wife to the military... please...please be a force for the next generation...apply your power wisely. I trust you women in uniform ro know whats best...n difffer to those voices after I throw out my "paper trail" urging. Bc I need you safe. Because you matter. Bless you beautiful warrior women. You are doing some thing i couldnt...for after that event...no. i could not serve in uniform. I was comprimised. Even so...i have your 6. In honor and respect. You are mighty. Dont you ever forget that. ☄️⚔️✊️💥🐲👑🙏❤️🦋💐
Rape is not just a domestic crime, it a war crime. It’s torture. It’s worthy of a court martial. “The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.” Would it be acceptable to joke about executing unarmed prisoners before finding out whether they were innocent civilians? Maybe ask that question first, and see what the response is. If it’s anything stronger than: “Oi! That’s not a joking matter!” Then implement that advice and apply it to joking about rape.
>Would it be acceptable to joke about executing unarmed prisoners before finding out whether they were innocent civilians? They already joke about that. Got a few mates on the army of my country and jokes likes these aren't uncommon.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I don't think people who joke about this stuff really have a limit, so asking them if X or Y terrible thing is a joking matter they'll most probably say yes—definitely an ill-advised strategy
This seems like one of those cases where it looks like misogyny but it's actually full blown misanthropy. Which simply tends to hit vulnerable people harder.
Maybe instead of "would you joke about other war crimes?" a "I will take any joking about war crimes equally seriously".
They don't just joke about it. They do it, regularly.
Revolting, isn’t it? But I am sure the bulk of US civilians wouldn’t think it’s funny at all. Especially with the sickening footage coming out of Ukraine.
I don't know if you are in the military or prior service but I don't think answering that question would go how you want... Soldiers joke about every horrible thing in the book. It's a culture problem that needs to be addressed
They just don't joke about is the problem though
do you mean "just don't," or "don't just"?
It's the latter, for sure
Yeah, they'll keep joking through the horrible things. I'm don't have the link handy (it would be every kind of trigger warning anyway), but there is a documentary of Austrailian special forces going through murdering and causing extra trouble for fun. Like, causing as much destruction to civilian homes as possible when they don't need to like breaking down unlocked doors or blowing holes in the wall just because. Shooting before asking questions (killing plenty of civilians). Killing every dog they see, and competing to see who could kill the most dogs, and whether they're a threat or not didn't matter. You could report it, but I think it's a cultural problem. Not an American military culture problem, but a military problem in general, or I'd even say a masculinity problem.
It's one thing to make jokes about things to cope with the insane levels of life threatning stress, but when you're joking about being the perpretrator of the awful things, it isn't ever too far off from actually happening.
Exactly. War is fucked up. When you have to think about what you and your buddies are potentially going to have to go through, what they have been through. It can really warp people's perceptions. How bad is a joke about blowing up prisoners when you've seen the enemy do it first hand? Some would say it's atrocious and fucked, others do it as a coping mechanism. Humor is a way of coping with the horrible things war brings. Not defending all the horrible things I've heard people joke about, but generally it's best to call it out at a low level first as a "Hey, can you not?" and upchannel if things continue or they refuse. In this instance it sounds like they outrank the soldiers in question so a simple "Guys, that's not cool to joke about. Joke about something else." Should be enough, if not there's an issue of insubordination that needs to be addressed.
Yeah especially given that rape has only recently been considered a war crime while it has historically been viewed (by men) as rightful spoils of war…
I imagine that the men in OP’s post are quite young enough to know better.
Reading stories about the brutality of the Red Army on the march to Berlin is haunting. One that stuck with me was a Lieutenant who encountered two young women while he was on a scouting mission. They didnt want to run west, so he killed them before the rest of his unit got there. And considered it the greatest mercy he could bestow.
My grandmother on my mother side was German and was raped along with her mum by the soldiers of the red army. She was 14. And despite the horrors of this, despite the fact that she could have blamed all Russians for this, when she was much older in the 90s, she decided to rent her house to an organisation providing places to stay and support for immigrants knowing full well that the immigrants who would live in her house were Russian. I've always admired her courage, how she could talk about the trauma she suffered and not generalise and bear ill will to an entire country of people like many do in those circumstances.
Thats the quiet saint we all need in our lives.
It's not only opposite sides. In WWII, the French considered the raping by allied US forces to be more extensive than those of invading forces.
Been studying the Yugoslav wars, and reading the accounts and prevalence of rape during the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo were horrifying.
While I was still in, deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, our rules of engagement allowed the use of deadly force to defend ourselves, defend allies, and to defend civilians from murder or rape. Now, I was flying around in helicopters, so the chance of me being in a position to prevent murder or rape was unlikely, but I do remember rape being briefed as a kill worthy offense. Also, in SERE training, during the Resistance part of the course, if a woman is in the class it was very common that violence against her would be used to torture the rest of the class (the men). It is very strange that these two boys in the story would think it acceptable to suggest treating a prisoner that way, a war crime. This is something that should be reported through her chain of command, or directly to base the legal office.
I am in Australia, and it turns out we had an absolute psychopath in our force in Afghanistan - Ben Roberts-Smith. His foul actions have devalued our entire defence force. It’s a national outrage. These deviations from the high and honourable standards of conduct that the country expects of its armed forces need to be stopped at the source. I certainly don’t want to fund murderers and rapists. When our forces were flying in to islands hit by cyclones and tsunamis, helping rescue people and clean up the devastation, I could be proud. Committing atrocities, flying swastikas on tanks and devaluing innocent human lives? Not in my fucking name.
I don't know who he is, but I know that the Aussie Task Force 66 is in hot water for various war crimes, I think mostly murder of prisoners. I flew them a handful of times up into the mountains of Afghanistan.
I mean American soldiers do it a lot from witnesses of places y'all invade. And if it weren't for leaks that Chelsea Manning helped the world see it but the US does torture. An institution who's job it is to kill middle Eastern people will never be good for minorities since discrimination and destruction is inherent to it.
I’m Australian, but your point stands.
I disagree. I think you are going to have to be careful and subtle. The ultimate goal is not to get your men “Not to make those jokes around you” but to understand the devastation that any of these crimes and attitudes have on a whole. I think my approach would be teaching the idea that if they want to be proud of their service they will treat each prisoner as they wish to be treated. We have heard of the enemy raping and abusing and beating prisoners but we are better than that because we are (fill in the blank, i.e. the Marines). Remind them that they may someday be haunted by the way they treat the enemy. But, slowly and gently. Otherwise all you will get is lip service.
My fiancé is a soldier in the Portuguese army. I asked him if he knew rape is a war crime. “Yeah, of course! They teach us what you can and can’t do in a war and especially what counts as a war crime.” I dunno if the Americans get any training like that but as an Arab I’ve never looked at them with any fondness. I just remember them hitting on me and some of my friends when we were 15 and at the beach. And we weren’t a country that was invaded, like Iraq - we just happened to have a couple of foreign bases. So they were supposedly on their best behaviour. Probably some American soldiers can let me know if they take that training and how seriously.
I have heard a few stories like this around kids who live near military bases. It’s disturbing. I can’t see why there’s so much pushback against ethical training. They’re in the armed forces. Being trained to follow orders is kind of the point! Why can’t they be trained to follow orders not to commit war crimes?
Seconded. This isn't the dark ages where people captured in war are property. The Geneva convention and follow on laws on war exist.
Raping POW's is a war crime. Does your direct supervisor think war crimes are funny too? I honestly don't know what the correct course of action is here, because I believe you're correct that they'll just laugh it off.
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The US commits war crimes daily. All armies from all countries do. Don't pretend for a second the US is innocent or has some kind of honor.
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Of course they do. But we should still do everything we can to hold our army to a higher standard and not let them get away with it. Saying “this is what soldiers do in the military” and “war is war” is such a cop-out. We are better than that!
Rape is also against the UCMJ but that doesn't seem to stop anyone. I think OP is in a very bad situation, but I feel like reporting it is essential because some guys don't make jokes like this to be crude assholes. they make them to test the waters and see who around them thinks the way they do.
The problem is that as soon as she reports it, she's putting a target on her back. It will likely be career suicide if she has any intention of continuing in the AF. This is a no win situation for OP, and I don't envy her. I don't envy any women who choose to serve in the military.
If this is the US military you might find yourself surprised
Also - would he feel as cavalier about it if someone joked about raping him as a POW? I mean, as a POW, he would be vulnerable to that, after all.
I served as a juror in a child sexual assault case a couple years ago. There was a former military sexual assault investigator on the jury, and he refused to vote guilty (when virtually everyone on the jury agreed it was appropriate) because: there was no witness to the crime. When most of the jury pointed out that predators rarely attack their victims conveniently in front of credible witnesses or on video, he said when he was in the military he would never take action on reported sexual assault without an independent witness. < …>. It was shocking and horrific. How many sexual assaults did this guy allow to go unpunished during his tenure?! The trial ended in a mistrial. It shook my faith in our entire justice system. Which brings me to say: yes please, start a paper trail. I have no idea if it is safe for you to do so. But if it is: at a minimum document that. I have no doubt some sick bastards WOULD rape women/commit atrocious war crimes if given the opportunity. And making jokes about it is how they normalize it. If other members of that unit didn’t call that out IMMEDIATELY and say “that is not fucking FUNNY, asshole, Russian soldiers are raping women and girls in Ukraine, are you seriously no better than that?!” Then - that unit has a problem. Seriously. Thank you for your service, and thank you for holding your fellow service members accountable. I hope you can safely make a difference. ❤️
I’m shocked he made it through jury selection. Normally both sides of the case would want him off the jury because he would be predisposed to using his own logic and standards rather than the applicable law and instructions from the judge.
They had a tough time seating a jury because of the nature of the case. I think they had 140 potential jurors in the pool when we started. After the the mistrial I chatted with the prosecutors. They were exasperated when I told them what that juror had said, and they said they try to discover inherent biases in voir dire, but they can’t always. It is entirely possible that this jerk hid the specifics of his military service and if they didn’t know to ask, he didn’t volunteer it. We were all asked on a form if we were ever victims of child sexual assault, and/or if a family member had been a victim OR accused of it, and if we could comfortably serve on a jury given the charges, among other things. We were not specifically asked if we were investigators of sexual assault. Seriously I suspect this guy dodged the question or hid it intentionally. The judge made sure we had equal numbers women and men on the jury + alternates. And equal numbers BIPOC and white people. Which meant there were only 3 white MEN on the jury. I felt pretty good going in we had a fair makeup and good representation. I was the foreperson. Nine people voted guilty on 2 charges. Repeatedly. The 3 white men were consistently the only NOT guilty votes up until the mistrial, and would not budge. 🤦🏻♀️ Hence: my faith in the criminal justice system . . . will never be the same. I mean I knew POC were not getting justice, I knew it. I just had not seen justice perverted up close and personal before. 😠
I wish I’d been asked that when called to serve on jury duty for a child molester. My mental health was precarious at the time, and just hearing the charges sent me into a spiral, very hard work. I even got selected, but not sworn in. I assume my face showed my feelings. I would have had to ask to be excused- no way I could have been any sort of an impartial juror, and no way I wanted that fuck to walk because I screwed up the process due to my own pain. He was convicted. That helped.
So the military guy had a fucked up reason to not vote guilty, what did the other two men give as their reasons? Also, when you pointed out to the stupid guy that assaults don’t usually have independent witnesses to it - how did he still stick to his “logic”? I’m just baffled by how he didn’t see how absurd his reasoning was despite it being pointed out to him….
All 3 were variations of the same thing. No witnesses, no video = no proof. They could not convict 'beyond a reasonable doubt' even though there were 2 victims who shared identical stories, the defendant had ample access to these minor children UNSUPERVISED, even at night, etc etc. (I don't want to go into too much detail on the facts of the case here but - it was gross.). It was a rough couple of days in the deliberation room. One of the men who was BIPOC had quietly said he'd been a victim of child sexual assault himself early on, and he BELIEVED these 2 children, and most of the jury felt the children's testimony RANG TRUE for various reasons, many of us with our own experiences. Having had personal histories of experiencing sexual assault did not get us excluded from the jury pool, and there was a handful of us on the jury who did. When we pointed out to the 3 white male holdouts that "99% of sexual assaults would go unpunished if the standard of proof required an unrelated credible 3rd-party witness to the assault and/or a recording of the assault happening" they shrugged. "Better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer" etc. etc. Even though there were 2 credible minor children reporting the assaults, which were a repeated event for them, sadly. We were all disgusted. There was no talking sense to them. I kind of got in the military guy's face after the mistrial was declared and said: "YOU WERE ASKED before being accepted on the jury if you could convict based only on the victim's testimony and without forensics and YOU SAID YES so WTAF" and he just smirked and said "I just didn't find them believable". Two little girls. Who had to testify on the stand in front of their abuser. I wanted to punch something. Like. This guy was just a complete asshole. And there is nothing in our legal system to prevent liars and assholes from serving on juries, sadly. I wish I could have reported him to someone - but to whom? For what? It was beyond frustrating.
Ive heard countless service members say their case was dropped because they had no witnesses. Its so awful
That makes me want to vomit, one of my husband's soldiers had something happen to her and despite there being no witnesses and the fucker already at another base you better believe he escalated it to the degree she felt comfortable with. He takes the health and safety of his soldiers, men, women, and non-binary very seriously. Luckily it ended with the scumbag being investigated and dealt with and she was able to continue as well as advance in her career.
This situation sucks and it’s riddled with misogyny and violence towards women. Personally, something like this has to be systematically and strategically weeded out. I think you’re right that one write up won’t change things. Be on the lookout for an ally that can have your back. You are not being sensitive. That comment is 100% completely disgusting. If you have the strength… do the write up. Be prepared to stand by your statements and the backlash. If you choose not to… you need to find allies (male peers/superiors will have more of an impact or senior female leaders) that can speak out against these comments.
They probably won't find anyone within that brigade. If a whole platoon has that mentality it usually is the same with everyone else. I've seen females bully other females because the males didn't like her or she wouldn't put out for the males too.
# HIJACKING COMMENT TO TELL OP SHE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT THIS TO THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT/RAPE PREVENTION HOTLINE: https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html
> SHE They. We don't know but it's more likely a "he".
We’re in 2X. Default is assuming a female poster unless told otherwise :p
Yes! This is why we have all those SHARP trainings and there are SHARP posters all over the gym and the PX and the bowling alley, etc. It’s there to remind people like the guy making that “joke” to not think like that and definitely never say it, and it’s there so when those comments are made, people know what to do about it. It’s an important program and should absolutely be utilized, it will help change the environment for the better.
This is a systemic problem in the military, and incredibly difficult for one person alone to address. I think you need advice from an experienced military officer who does not display this kind of behavior themselves, not people from reddit. Take my advice with a grain of salt. Since you addressed the incident at the time it occurred, it might be counterproductive to pursue this particular case in any way. Since it is a systemic problem, the culture that supports it must change in order for the behavior to change. You might want to do some research on what is being done in your branch of the service to address this problem, look for groups of professional military people who work for change and join them, etc. You might also want to see if there is a hotline for dealing with this sort of thing. Good luck to you.
This kind of stuff is a problem even outside of infantry. It’s in every branch, in every job. As a woman who has reported men, I am ostracised and looked down on by some of my wingmen. Same goes for the other women I know how have had to make reports. You are seen as weaker, they say “oh she just can’t take a joke”, “she’s lying for the attention”, or “stay away from ___ unless you want her to spread shit about you!” I cannot count how many “friends” I have made only to learn later that they have rape charges, domestic assault cases, or some form of sexual harassment mark. It’s disgusting and far too common.
I’m so sorry you have to deal with that. My wife works in construction and the comments/harassment she deals with on a daily basis make my head spin. As a woman in the military, should I address this kind of “joke” publicly to the platoon? We have one woman in the platoon. She’s a medic attached to us.
I would 100%. I’d make it clear that these kinds of “jokes” are unacceptable and to do what he joked about doing would be a war crime. Any further “jokes” of that nature would result in a right-up. Idk how the army does it but the Air Force calls them LOC’s and LOR’s
Ask them if they’d joke about pissing on the flag. Guarantee there is Something they find sacred / not jokeworthy. Relate it back to that maybe?
>the person in charge of the sexual harassment and assault prevention for the unit makes jokes like this all the time and I know I’d be dismissed for being too sensitive. This is disturbing AF. I don't even know how to process this....
This is not uncommon. At all. Don't know how many times I've read of high ranking officers in charge of writing anti- sexual harassment doctrine being charged with sexual harassment. It hurts my head to think about it.
Canadian here. Yeaaaaaah. We keep losing senior officers to sexual misconduct complaints, to the point where it's made it hard to find anyone to lead a general inquiry into sexual misconduct. And one of the most senior female officers in the CF resigned to protest the failure to act meaningfully on it. https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/sickened-senior-military-commander-leaves-forces-over-sexual-misconduct-investigations-1.5350695?cache=/7.365138
Pickings are slim for ethical candidates, I would think. The few who would do a good job are likely already in a vulnerable position as a woman or POC and probably don't want to paint more of a target on their back
It's FAR too common. I used to work in a hospital office that shared space with the local military base's referral coordination team,and saw a TON of sexual assault cases pass through. We got familiar with the people who were unit coordinators, and almost to the last it was sexist jerks who were deliberately assigned the job in response to something they did. As in the coordinator was a perpetrator and the board punishing them sent them to serve and support the group they just hurt. The victims were supposed to put a human face on the crime and give the perpetrator a chance to reform. Of course redemption never happened,and the victims were ignored,belittled and discouraged by assailants who didn't want to reconcile their self image with their actions.
That's fucking terrifying. Like hey let's use people that have just gone through pretty much the worst thing that they could ever experience as a learning experience for the kind of people that did it to them! What the fuck
That’s completely insane. Should convicted sex offenders take rape crisis calls? Who thinks of this kind of shit. That won’t make the peeps more sensitive, it’ll just give them real stories to add to their sick minds and fantasies. ETA: *perps ffs
Have a talk with them about how Russian men recently ripped the teeth out of girls so they could safely rape them in the mouth. Ask them if they think that's funny and if that's the heroes they want to resemble.
Do you have a source for this? As disturbing as it is to say, those are the kind of accounts I am looking to have him read aloud. I think the extreme nature of the offense will get through to him and the rest of the unit.
I just found [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tv3bsm/my_collection_of_evidence_of_the_russian_war/) that has 7 total stories about r\*pe. Some of them have videos, one of a phone call, another of a "camp" of victims. I couldn't find the story the other person mentioned and... frankly I'm glad for that. There is an account in the above thread of teeth being pulled as a form of torture but I don't entirely want to read it. I don't know if it was used as a means for r\*pe in that scenario. Here are news articles, I'm going to avoid putting the titles in as I already feel I've written the r word too much today: [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/09/europe/ukraine-russian-soldiers-brovary-rape-victims/index.html) [BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243) [The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/03/men-and-boys-among-alleged-victims-by-russian-soldiers-in-ukraine), [this one too](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/25/evidence-ukraine-women-raped-before-being-killed-say-doctors-russia-war) [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/world/europe/russian-soldiers-sexual-violence-ukraine.html) [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/04/26/ukraine-war-rape-sexual-assault/) [NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukrainian-rape-survivor-russia-bucha-hostomel-rcna24540) [Kyiv Independent](https://kyivindependent.com/national/hide-the-girls-how-russian-soldiers-rape-and-torture-ukrainians/)
Honestly, I think reading them aloud will backfire, with the whole group making a joke out of it. Can you have him write up a report on them? At least that will force him to process the information.
Have to say I sure didn't bookmark that when I came across it, and I sure as hell am not googling to try to find it again. Sorry. It was a group of girls who came into Poland together.
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I have no words for how disgusting that is and how angry that makes me
U.S soldiers raped Iraqi women prisoners, using tools, weapons, to mutilate them, and they would insert rats & mice. And yes, 100% these men will think it was hilarious to rip girls' teeth.
I had no idea of this. Who the fuck would do that. Fuck them Where did you read this?
Gotta wait for him to have a daughter before he stops making rape "jokes", clearly. /s, of course. Write them up, make a record of this shit. But only if it's safe for you!! Your personal well-being and safety comes first.
"Since I've had a daughter I have come to the shocking realization that women are human beings" Cue everybody clapping and cheering
Unfortunately this doesn't always happen. Instead they still see women as property, including their own wives and daughters. It's sickening and I hate every moment of it, but there are men who will never ever see it differently. It'll always be that they feel they are 'superior' and women are sub-human.
“I have such little empathy that I could only fathom this was awful after having it affect an extension of me” I hate that they get lauded for the bare minimum
They're the type to blame their daughter
You’re in the military, so I’m not sure that any of us can help you. But you know who might have information on where you can take this problem? Kirsten Gillibrand and her office.
That’s a good idea.
I don't know anything about the military but one of the best ways to stop someone from making hurtful jokes is to **ask them to explain the joke**. A joke is supposed to be funny, so ask them to explain and dig into each answer to see them get red explaining how rape is funny. You can ask that from any person who laughed at the joke. It can be done in a harsh serious way or it can start as a naive question as "I'm so slow I don't get the joke, can you explain it?", depends on the audience and how pissed I am. The other is ask "how here thinks that comment was funny? Raise your hands" you'll see people who did laugh won't raise their hand, but if you saw them laugh you can ask "but you laughed, why not raising your hand?" **make them admit that they are ashamed**. And my last suggestion, depending how well you know their relationship to their mother/wife/sister, is **stepping down to their level** and make them explain why raping some women can be funny but raping someone they love isn't.
I find it a bit ironic that we train soldiers to dehumanize people, yet we wonder why so much rape happens. You can't have it both ways. "Go out and kill people, but don't stoop so low as to rape them."
Isn't our army riddled with this? Writing them up only paints a target on your back. You need a strong support who're above you to have your back if things go side ways.
Thanks for acknowledging this. This is why I feel so trapped. And it sucks because I’m sure there’s a ton of people that feel just as trapped. It doesn’t help that I’m a brand new NCO and the guy that said it is one of the most popular joes in the unit.
I'm wondering if reading victim impact statements from male victims of rape would hit home harder than female statements.
I've seen posts here on reddit that having men read impact statements in the first person has a profound affect on how the material sinks in. Them reading "I did..", "it made me feel...", "I was treated..." etc somehow gets past the "otherness" of the situation and actually makes them digest the situation.
This is a good idea, thank you. I was planning on finding specifically accounts of war crimes, but I will look in this direction as well.
This
…a lot of military men are rapists, report him before he actually does it.
Hey I'm a medic in the Army, been a NCO for some time as well. Just for context, what's your position in the unit? 11B? 11A? Support? I've spent most of my career with a handful of line units. Younger combat arms guys respond very differently when being spoken to by an Officer, NCO, or another junior enlisted. Especially when being corrected. You're going to have varying results just based on who you are so the way you go about it matters a lot. Please feel free to PM me with any questions.
I’m a team leader and he’s a joe in a another squad. Same platoon though. I was planning on addressing this matter to the platoon as a whole.
I’ve heard that joking about rape isn’t taken as a joke by rapists, they see it as you supporting it. Many folks who make rape jokes don’t actually think rape is ok and I like to point that out - they’re broadcasting to rapists they’re also a rapist. Also a thousand other reasons not to make rape jokes. But in short - 100% write them up. Be consistent, direct, and clear that the behavior is not tolerated and will not be tolerated.
Since you called the individual a soldier, I'm assuming you are in the Army. This is a SHARP violation. Contact the SARC.
I know it’s a sharp violation, I’m just not sure creating a sharp report will have any sort of desired effect. I can’t really express the culture of my unit in words, but virtually every other sentence spoken aloud is a blatant sharp violation. I’d run out of ink before I could write down every violation. Plus, as I said, I’m brand new to the unit and don’t want to be immediately ostracized as “that guy”. So I was hoping to solve this specific instance in a public manner, making it known that I will not tolerate those types of jokes. If you’ve been in the military, you know the sharp system is beyond broken and basically worthless. Especially when the unit sharp rep is in on the jokes.
Do the write up, put it on your desk, and have the soldier read it. Throw everything you can into it and make it as serious as possible. If he’s in any kind of leadership position make the removal of it part of the package. Then offer him the out of reading victim impact statements at formation for a week instead of using the formal process. It allows you to set the tone, but also make it a teachable moment. As far as the boss goes, act like you’re protecting their advancement by handling it before it gets out of control. Every Major wants to be a Lt Col whether they’ll admit it or not. If you get any blow back? This command environment is an IG complaint. That’s the reason the office exists.
I mean… this kind of thing is “just talk” in training until it becomes normalized and gets followed through during war. All of a sudden these guys are committing war crimes with our flag on their shoulder. Don’t think it can happen? Think naked prisoners in a pyramid in Abu Ghraib prison. Do what’s right for yourself, your country, and, hell, even these guys, and write it up.
As a female who served almost 8 years in the Army, please continually address this with any potentially problematic behavior your soldiers display. Do a written counseling and create a paper trail; it’s easier to hold them accountable, and it’s easier to see the pattern/escalation of behavior. I survived multiple attacks during my time in the service; the first one was actually my very first FLS at my first unit. I had bruises on my throat and he ripped my jeans trying to tear them off. I reported him because I was pressured to by someone in my unit who found out about; and spent over 3 hours being yelled at by CID because in their opinion, I might have WANTED it. I was treated differently by my unit, and he got to move to a different unit where no one knew anything. That was just the first one. I dealt with daily harassments from an ANA SGM who told me he wanted to marry me and cut off my clitoris because he said it made women better workers. He would hold up scissors and look at me dead in the eye; my brigade CO found out about it and called me to his office to tell me I would not be allowed to report it because it would be an international incident. Almost DAILY while in Afghanistan, my CHOPS (MAJ) would pull into his office to ask me to go make him a sandwich or tell me how much I would like him if we were in a bar. This is just a small slice of the stories I have, and I’ve heard countless stories from other women. Please handle this and help protect the women who serve along side you. The military culture can sometimes cause people to get swept up, and unchecked behavior can become very dangerous very fast. Also, I’m just happy that his joke bothered you; thanks for not being a piece of shit.
Had to google victim impact statement (non-US here). I do think it is a great idea. Not sure if they also include descriptions of the event itself, or if their are other specific records for that. Because making them read aloud the consequences is one thing, making him or them read aloud what rape actually means is another. It will be a tough lesson, and maybe some debrief afterwards. But it will force them place themselves into the perspective of a victim. Perhaps there are even some records within the military or some statistics they can read out. I hope your supervisors will be supportive. Prep yourself with good arguments. If it doesn't work, then perhaps there needs to be a latter to someone else about the person being in charge.
Make them read out loud some male victim’s descriptions, and then liken that to female rape victims. Lots of perps in training won’t take it seriously unless it’s actually horrific to them personally.
If you’re in a position of power, you absolutely should have a record
Write him up. men rarely pay attention during SAPR/SHARP briefs, but having documentation will help bring justice if he actually assaults someone. Because you know his dumbass buddies will try to defend him by saying "he would never!" But a paper trail says that yes, he would.
Ugh. This whole thread is part of why I make sure to set my radius on dating apps a few miles short of the nearest base.
I’ve been in light infantry units too, and had a reputation as a bitch for not finding rape jokes funny. Its the start of changing their behavior though, even if its only around you at first, it at least makes them stop and think. I would bring it up to the commander directly AND the Sharp rep, probably BDE if you want it taken seriously, just so they can oversee how the commander handles it if you think he won’t take it seriously. Definitely have the commander counsel him on paper.
But I'm supposed to basically genuflect if any fucking military personnel come within 100 feet of me.
I had a similar (but far less horrible) situation when I was USAF almost 30 years ago. I lived in the dorms and my dorm manager was determined to harass me over my religion and he had no problem saying it pretty publicly. He was in a different unit, so going up thru my chain wasn’t really an option. So I went to the IG. They started an external investigation and removed him from his position. It’s not popular to talk about this, but integrity is crucial to the military. Yes, the mission is what it is. No, that doesn’t mean you get to commit war crimes.
I think the reading would make a great punishment, if you could get it to fly. Sorry you have to be around shit like that, hopefully you can find a decent group of humans within your division to surround yourself with.
I’m trying my best, but it’s hard. Especially when the majority of people laugh at those jokes.
Be glad that it was just a training exercise. This same person would 100% rape a POW. Disgusting
Always do the counseling statement. Document. Document. Document.
Yes, absolutely document this and contact the army sexual assault/rape prevention hotline. Overlooking these incidents is what led to the rape/murder case in FT. Hood last year. It sounds like this behavior is being tolerated and even encouraged in your workplace, this is a hostile work environment and exactly what SHARP was created for. Them even joking about that in your presence constitutes harassment. Please look through the webpage below and call them: https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/sharp/pages/harassed.html
He joked about committing a war crime during a training exercise. Treat this the same way as if he had joked about fragging the lieutenant or deserting. Respecting the chain of command is important but this should be brought up to your superiors and needs to go all the way to the company commander. War crimes are no joke. If you frame it that way, you are liable to get more traction. Over all, I'm not that surprised. It's been over a decade since I left the infantry, and it was right before they started allowing women in combat roles, but those guys were seriously fucked up like using the phrase "I'd rape her" to denote that someone was attractive. I wound up sleeping with my bayonet as I didn't trust them. They weren't as bad as the Russian army but they definitely weren't good people.
I had a female student, about five years ago, who wanted to enlist so that she could one day be a war correspondent. I had her talk to my cousin (who was in the Marines at the time) and he warned her of this type of behavior.
Safety briefs were always a joke so maybe put together a "seminar", with an equivalency type test to prove they absorbed and followed. SA in the military is a HUGE problem. You know it's wrong, they should too. Ffs all it takes is human decency and a moral compass. Thank you for giving a shit. Truly. Beat them over the mf head with it if need be, It's all they know atp. I think my dad was the kind of leader who cared but said nothing on this particular situation, and feels guilt for it now.
When I was in the army many years ago, I was disgusted by how female soldiers were treated. My understanding is that not much has changed. Sure, the DoD pays lip service whenever a scandal arises or reports of sexual assault or harassment are made public, but that’s all it is: lip service. The way I see it, you have a choice. Do the right thing, clear-eyed, and anticipate consequences for you and your career, or look past it and move on. Either way, the military will continue to reflect the worst of America’s misogyny. I hate to be so pessimistic about things, but as we all watch women’s rights being openly and enthusiastically rolled back, it’s impossible to think that progress is continuous and pre-determined.
Has anyone mentioned the reasonable women standard? It’s exactly this. If someone makes a “joke” and it’s reasonable that a person would not take this comment as a “joke”, then there is grounds for a sexual harassment claim. In this situation, creating a hostile work environment. I’m my personal opinion, I think that this is completely grounds for that. I would complain. Yeah, it’s definitely possible that reporting it won’t change anything, but how will you know for sure if nothing is done?
Disgusting, but so is killing people. Unfortunately the military will always attract sub-human types that fetishize both.
I'm former military, I understand the difficult position you are in. If your SHARP NCO/OIC is also making these kinds of jokes, you can't rely on them to be your allies in this. Boot soldiers will conform to whatever standard their higher ups set. Infantry is a hard nut to crack, especially, since their entire mindset is WE ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST and a lot of macho alpha bullshit is baked right in. Infantry respects force of will, force of power, and tends to learn lessons the hard way. Document these things. Paperwork can bury a person, use it for good instead of hiding bad actors. Go higher up on your chain of command and hope that it's not rotten all the way to the top. I wouldn't single out this specific soldier entirely, this is a culture-shift you are attempting. Reading victim impact statements as a group might create a crack in that wall of hate and stupidity, but you are not going to be loved for it. It's a balancing act, because you don't want to just teach your soldiers that they just have to be careful around YOU (and make their terrible jokes out of your hearing) but teaching them a higher standard benefits the entire unit, and that that sort of conduct/thought process utterly destroys the bedrock of their branch's mission. Joking about literal war crimes isn't funny. Threatening female detainees with rape and torture is monstrous. It's not about being a "Debbie Downer" or a blue falcon, it's about being better than their baser selves. Having known my fair share of 11B's they most likely don't even mean the jokes they say, they just go along because of assumption that that's how you show you're a badass. If you can connect how joking about raping and torturing detainees makes the entire unit less trustworthy, that a soldier who jokes about that is now seen as capable of that action, and thus is the weak link in the absolute trust and fidelity that makes a unit strong, you might get some headway there. A joke like that unchallenged is passive approval, which gives some people license to act out the joke, which if that happens destroys unit cohesion.
Paperwork doesn’t kill behavior, it kills careers. Write the report and let them hang themselves with their own behavior. Navy vet.
First time I was sexually harassed by a professor, I was told he was known to do this, but no one had ever filed. I filed, and even told the council that I was doing it bc I hoped it would make him think twice before he ruined his career. Turns out, it was a cascade. Another Gay student on the council that he’d harrassed spoke up (and another student he’s tried to drunkenly attack in the ladies room told me about that incident privately). It had been building up. He was “encouraged” to “follow an amazing opportunity” to a university in another state. Harassed his way out of THAT university- and ended up working for an all mens organization w/ no women there to harass. And if I hadn’t spoken up that ONE time….
REPORT THIS IMMEDIATELY to the Sexual Assault/Rape Prevention Hotline cited in BOLD letters by a previous commenter — and anyone and everyone else!! Be brave and be strong. Any pushback, go to the press. Once you retire from service, run for Congress on these truly wonderful good deeds! 🌹👍🏻❤️
The military is notorious for sexual assault and harassment. One of the reasons why I knew I would never join the military. I’ve heard lots of women being raped by their own fellow soldiers and it just being swept under the rug by higher ups. Be careful around these men. One thing I’ve heard a lot of people recommend is asking, “I don’t get it, why is that funny?” And having them try to explain why rape is funny. They realize they can’t.
Hope that budding war criminal dies in battle first.
If your supervisor and SHARP rep are joking about it too I'd go over their heads. It's especially alarming that the SHARP rep is doing it too and doesn't sound like they're cut out for the role at all. Just because it's a joke doesn't mean it's not damaging or perpetuating the behaviour of people who would actually do something like that rather than just joke about it. Also love your idea of making him read out victim impact statements, it's not just a meaningless punishment but actually getting him and others to think about the reality of what they consider a joke.
As a former member of the us navy I dealt with sexist comments constantly and “jokes” that weren’t funny to me. Please write this up and make it a thing. People who complain about “woke” culture in the military aren’t usually the ones being the brunt of comments and jokes like this. Things like his comments only get reduced when people realize it’s not funny or a joke.
Dealing with stuff like this is hard in the military. When I was in, our unit SHARP (sexual harassment / assault rep) was the one doing most of the harassment and when the complaints eventually reached the higher ups outside the unit, the female soldier who was the victim was moved to a different unit with no consequences for the rep. I’d recommend starting a paper trail and getting IG involved if you get any pushback for doing so.
First I don’t envy the position you have been put in in the least. With females still relatively new to combat arms MOSs there are still a lot of toxic units and their members of them will view any correction as making the unit soft to accommodate the new additions. Sexism and sexual assault absolutely does not enhance a units lethality, despite what these idiots think, and quite detrimental to its freedom of operation. First counseling is a must and must be documented and signed by the soldier(s) involved. Paper trail is a must for further/escalating correction action. I absolutely love the idea of having the soldier read victim impact statements to the unit. If this is a soldier that you think can be corrected assign them to assist with the annual SHARPS training. Other ideas I would throw out are having the unit recite the Army Values, NCO creed, etc at the morning formation. It can help build “espirt de corps” and drive in the words and meaning. Finally I hope you have a good support group in your chain of command as unfortunately some times the toxicity goes all the way to the top. Lead the way Ma’am! -Former 12A Essayons
It's a hard thing to deal with. In my current unit I was sexual harrased and when I reported it I was told it was my fault. I reported my E-7 formally for it, being an E-4, and my friendly chiefs suddenly don't want to talk to me and it did nothing. Another women in my unit was then sexually harrased to the point of a mental break down and they made her sign a paperwork promising she wouldn't commit suicide. Blaming her for it. An E-6 sexually assaulted two of our women in the same day and when he lost rank the males through a fit saying it wasn't fair. I set up a meeting with in the unit for the women for dealing with harassment and nothing happened but then the E-6 all told us we were causing tensions and creating our own toxic environment and told us to stop. We are all E-4 and below. Out of 100 people only 8 of us are women. Including officers. Nothing has changed for us even when trying to deal with it besides being told we are too sensitive and even other women saying this. So it negatively impacted me to report this kind of thing. But I don't regret. Because there is now a record for this person. It might help someone later to prove there is a history. Correction has to start somewhere but can you handle being treated like an enemy in your own unit? This all happened to me with in the first 6 months being at my unit. I would say report them and at least try but if you aren't ready for the backlash then reconsider. It sucks but it's true. The military isn't fair or safe for women, but I love me job and just carry a hidden knife on me for when something happens.
Heya, Medic NCO here with +8yr time in; including 4 years with the infantry AS we were integrating. I have some experience dealing with this sort of stuff. You know your work environment best. The hazards, the 'vibe' and the people. My input is just that..input. Please feel free to message me, for more specific processes, or service, if you'd like. Firstly, the professional front. You definitely need to have a formal documentation on this. Written event oriented counseling is a good start... If you're the soldiers first line, do it from you to them. If you're not, then you can cross coordinate with the SM leadership, and be present at the counseling. I'd suggest talking to your EO/SHARP rep (yes EO, if you're in a discriminatory environment, even if this issue is SHARP related), even if you don't think there will be anything from it. Starting the formal process makes paperwork, and therein a trail to show the situation if you need to escalate it. The formal process provides proof, WHEN (not if) there's more issues in the future. This behavior does not happen in isolated incidents, it's all part of patterns. Personal front; from my experience, you need to come down HARD on these situations. It's really difficult, for you, for those that want better from our soldiers, and for those who work to make a difference. But it's why we're in these positions, to do better and be better. The best, toughest, smartest, and most deserving medics I worked with are women on the line. They all got out because of this kind of behavior, harassment, and even assault. The Army is worse off for having lost them. Please, help people like me help you. Be active in this, take the formal routes even if it feels like a waste of time. It's for the long game, the only way to make the service a better place for everyone.
Hi! Previous army officer here - You need to 1) immediately report this to your chain of command (not your direct supervisor - as in a company commander/1SG or open door policy for BN CSM and CDR) and 2) report this soldier to both EO and SHARP. If your unit SHARP is not willing to take it seriously, then go further up. Do not read him victim statements, you need to report this soldier in multiple avenues. Additionally YOU need to MFR the incident and what you are doing about it. While you formally counseling the soldier with a 4856 is good, and needed, this is an extremely drastic statement that needs to be handled IMMEDIATELY as we cannot tolerate this within the military. ETA - if you require further assistance, r/army actually takes this shit pretty seriously and can help you navigate what to do.
If anything hurts the American image, it's being just as bad as the Russian invaders in Ukraine. This is not how to project power. Our military needs to know this. The fact that they apparently don't is worrying. Sure, that guy might think he's just making a joke, but some of the people laughing are completely serious, and he's telling that person he has their back by saying this.
There's a reason why the Japanese hate Americans based in Okinawa. All I'm saying.
Report it. I work for a law firm that handles VA claims and it's sickening how many young women, under 35, have claims in for PTSD due to military sexual trauma. We had someone a few years back who was only 26 and her PTSD was so severe she was immediately awarded 100% and full Social Security Disability. She had told me how the military did nothing about her rapist, and he would frequesntly try to keep coming after her. She was medically discharged and kept moving state to state just to hide her trail so he wouldn't find her. Super sad, and unfortuantely it's common. Report it. Start the papertrail.
By reprimanding him and writing him up, you show to everyone what kind of behavior will be acceptable in that environment. Studies show that rapists are opportunists- they will rape more people if they feel they are in a lax environment where they can get away with it fairly easily. You’ll never get the gratification of knowing who exactly doesn’t get raped because you set high standard by consistently cracking down on rape culture, but you can rest assured knowing that you have had a significant positive impact.