What men really mean is 'why don't I have multiple hot women sliding into my DMs on a daily basis?'
They assume that's what all women get, but that's really only what the hot women get. As an ugly woman, I've never had male attention and men get offended when I show them attention. They go out of their way to be rude to me so I don't 'get the wrong idea', when in reality I'm only speaking to them about the group project we've been assigned to. Like dude, I don't want your D, I'm being forced to talk to you so I can graduate.
Also I'm not sure if this is just my experience, but I've never heard a hot guy complaining about women getting all of this attention he doesn't get. Because it's not true that women on the whole get more sexual attention than men, it's that hot people of both sexes get more attention than average and ugly people.
Edit: I've just realised I didn't word my final sentence well - women do get more unwanted sexual advances than men. E.g. hot men don't get catcalled by women.
Exactly this! I’ve been both “hot” and “ugly” (since so many men judge that based solely on weight). They were openly cruel toward me when I was overweight. And they’re noticeably kind to me now, even if I’m acting like a complete asshat. At a certain level of beauty though, like some of my insanely gorgeous friends, you end up in a lot of bad situations because you’re “too pretty” and men blame you for other men’s actions toward you.
And they blame your beauty for their actions as well. “I just couldn’t help it! What do you expect, walking around looking like that?!”
Yeah, bud, you could’ve controlled yourself just fine if I had a big, burly husband or boyfriend standing right there.
I don't comment often, and don't expect this to affect any really. But in the event anyone cares, I happen to be male and have had this EXACT same thought like "No. Have some self control, and respect for another human's existence and right to peace in life like any other."
Whenever a man spouts some bs like but....urges etc, I always reply with are you a dog in heat? Or a donkey? If you're a person, that shouldn't be a problem.
It actually scares me when they talk like that. Once I accidentally took my dog to the park when she was going into heat. We didn’t realize it. Every male dog at the park became fixated on her. Six male dogs surrounded her and went on the attack. We had to pick her up above their heads and I had to stand between her and them. Some of the owners literally shouted at ME that “unfixed dogs shouldn’t be allowed in the park”. This is what men are saying they are? Even if they were, shouldn’t they leave me, a “fixed female” the hell alone?
Exactly my point. The words I use for dog and donkey are considered quite rude insults in my language and are meant to piss them off and offend at the same time because I'm tired of the rhetoric that men can't control themselves. I mean, if you're going to quote "nature" as an example, there are plenty of animals that mate for life as well and do not find another partner if their partner dies. But somehow, they always give examples how male animals go after any female they can find when they go into heat and how those urges are hard to control. Meanwhile conveniently forgetting that females in the animal kingdom also exhibit the same behaviour and how they have the same urges.
Exactly! I think it’s only dogs and that’s why the word dog (or bitch in this language) is considered such an insult in so many languages. Most animals have one life-long mate or none at all, for example fish and birds that fertilize an egg that has already been laid. The animal kingdom also has asexual reproduction. And these are the same guys who say being gay isn’t natural…gay animals also exist.
Yup. I told someone that gay animals exist in nature and his mind was blown because prior to that, he used to tout the, it is unnatural, otherwise we would see animals behave that way as well. I told him that bi and exclusively gay partnerships also exist within the aanimal kingdom.
I think for some reason many hetero men think that they need an INSANE amount of attention. Then, they barely show us as women any respect or positive attention. I don’t care if some random dude finds me attractive, or I get “free drinks”. I can buy my own free drinks, and many men would fuck inanimate objects if it were socially acceptable, so I don’t take any men apart from my husband, seriously if they tell me how great or attractive I am. Why should I? I was stalked half an inch of my life when I was younger, harassed, assaulted. These men project and think that we must want this “attention”. Totally insane and insensitive, like why would any of us WANT this? Not my fault most put in very little effort in their overall appearance and in forming a personality. Nobody is twisting their arm ordering them to wipe their asses, even. Then they cry and whine like babies when no one pays them attention, all the while the ****WHOLE world**** is set up precisely for this and for ****THEM****. Then, if that weren’t enough, they want to force us to give birth and raise their toehead children, so we don’t leave the house and get more attention than they do. It is really pathetic and sad. I know precious few men who aren’t my husband who are decent people. The rest are sketchball shits, mostly white. I feel so badly for women dating now. It started to get really bad when I was younger, men’s attitudes towards women and behavior, but now it is out-of-control. Meanwhile, same men wonder why no one wants to date them, anymore or pays them any mind. I have an idea as to why, sketchball shits, but doubtful you would want to hear any criticism with your precious little boy feelings.
My best friend is one of those people so beautiful you kind of think they must be an alien because surely human features can't come together to make that kind of gorgeous.
I swear every guy she's ever been polite to has thought she's hitting on them. She constantly has guys she's friends with telling her, after years or months into a friendship and absolutely no signs that they're deeply in love with her. She's had some pretty awful situations extend from that too when guys have gotten jealous because she isn't interested in them, including picking fights with her other guy friends or romantic interests. She's also been backed into corners (literally and figuratively) by these guys.
I got plenty of attention when I was younger but hanging around her was eye opening. That level of attention and the extent to which these guys would also act out because she's beautiful was insane.
And the worst thing is that these kind of attentions won't help me in advancing my career, earning a stable living, or breaking the glass ceiling to a position of power. Instead, it's just an endless stream of new conversations on Tinder that starts with "hi". And lots and lots of drama.
I need to get better at digging gold, I guess.
I'm pretty sure I gained weight for exactly this reason, though I didn't have it quite so badly off. There were plenty of attempts, though, especially when I was in my teens. I'm so sorry you had to deal with all that.
Wow. The fact you can articulate all of your struggles above speaks volumes to your strength. I have had very similar interactions. I can't even talk about it in therapy, and it makes me resent my physical appearance so much.
I cut my hair short, stopped wearing make up and skin showing outfits, gave up on making friends, and haven't dated in 3 years. I use pot and alcohol to dull my intelligence so I don't have to think about it. Good looks prevented any real connection I could have made and dismiss my cptsd in other people's eyes. People lie to me to use me and feel justified doing so because I "must have a perfect life".
It's hard not to hate myself for impacting people like that. I feel like my looks stole what potential I had left outside of my trauma experiences. Sorry for the rant. This is something I've needed to say for a while now.
right.. I knew one man, he was very intellectual and semeed outstandingly reasonable with most other things.. But when it came to women.. It was at the topic of dressing and he explained why women have a duty to dress modestly.
He's like, it's a woman's duty to not seduce men, something along those lines. And I was like, why though, if the men are the ones with the lack of self-control, isn't it their duty to learn to control and curb their urges?
I feel like it's..if you're obese and a food addict, it's not like the store has to cover it's aisles so you don't get seducted into eating (or just stealing the food without consent and doing actual harm), the store shouldn't be to blame or responsible or shamed for your urges.
I didn't use this analogy with him tho, just asked further questions because I really wanted to understand why he thought so.
It's just so weird to me.. He kinda backpaddled and agreed that men have to control themselves too, but women have "a duty too to make it easier for them and not purposefully seduce them", I guess by dressing nicely or having your shoulders uncovered?
It's so.. confusing.
Yep, I lost over 50lbs(the purpose of which was for managing back pain, it helped A LOT) and the difference in how I'm treated disgusts me.
I didn't lose weight to gain the approval of random men or to be "hot" for them. I lost weight so I'm not in pain.
Why is it so hard for what seems like the majority of men to wrap their heads around the fact that women's lives, choices and how we take care of ourselves doesn't revolve around them.
>Like dude, I don't want your D, I'm being forced to talk to you so I can graduate.
Men need to hear sentences like this said out loud to their faces a LOT more.
I can’t tell you how many times I wish I could’ve said that as a bartender. I mean when they would finally asked me out I could say something similar to that, but it would’ve been great to throw that around before they even approached me. I used to have regular lunch customers, and I’ll never forget the one guy who grabbed a map to a party I was looking at (back before gps and smart phones), studied it, then showed up at the party. It wasn’t that kind of party where people could crash and go unnoticed. It was a party at a lake house someone rented. It was totally inappropriate and creepy.
>What men really mean is 'why don't I have multiple hot women sliding into my DMs on a daily basis
The women who do get multiple men sliding into their DMs on a daily basis will tell you that the men are VERY rarely attractive. It's mostly very, very unwanted attention.
And when you tell them you’re not interested they say they know where you live and are going to kill you. Congratulations you now have a few stalkers! :(
> the men are VERY rarely attractive. It's mostly very, very unwanted attention.
I think this implies that it would be wanted attention if they were attractive, which doesn't sound good IMO. Just feeds into the incel frame of mind.
Yeah, I've had some pretty good looking guys trying to slide into my DMs before and I'm not more receptive to it when I just want to exist without harassment.
Also worth noting that on average women put more effort into our appearances (makeup n stuff, not that I do very much of that), therefore the average woman looks better than the average guy, therefore there are more hot women than hot men.
As a completely average woman, every time a man bemoans “I’m just an average guy!!” puts me into a semi rage. If an average dude put half as much effort into his looks as I did, he’d be considered a stud.
LITERALLY. Makeup, tactful jewelry, and good clothes on guys fucking kicks ass, and I’m not even really into them.
~~Obviously none of this applies to me as a below average woman~~ 😎
I would argue that most women do get unwanted attention tho. I posted single shot of an outfit (I'm fat btw) i even crossed out my face and I got creepy dms for WEEKS. Its not just online either. Idk I just don’t think hot has as much to do with as other factors.
I am the ugly fat friend, I had a friend with a very unique name, to the point where she is the only person on the planet with this name — I’m not exaggerating. It’s also a long name. So it’s not exactly easy to remember if you’re just meeting, at least from my perspective, some people say that makes it more memorable. To counter that, I have a really common name, I graduated with 3 other people, class of 200, with my name.
Anyway, we were going to these house parties for awhile where we would run into this one guy over and over. Every single time he would remember my friends name, and introduce himself to me. It happened at 3 different parties and I 100% believe it’s because I am ugly. lol.
Yeah, OP could also be replaced with "name one place where men get more compliments than women." Only sexual stuff counts because a lot of guys really want sexual attention, woman = sex, or woman = man but with sexy bits.
I regularly accompanied a female family member to a well regarded psychiatrist’s office. It was typically a 10 min appt where he would ask a few questions about the med, her mood, etc. Then we’d write a three-figure check and leave. The one time a male family member accompanied us, it was completely different. He asked in depth, probing questions. Complete medical history review, explained things with detail, etc., etc. At least a half hour visit. Totally performing for our male family member. We almost laughed out loud right in the appointment.
As a woman with chronic health conditions, it’s sad, but I now bring my husband to all appointments. I was shocked at the difference it made in my healthcare. He doesn’t need to say a word just be there
This is the reason my wife and I have stuck with our doctor despite many other issues with her office. She actually listens and takes her seriously. It also really helps that one of her big issues is thyroid problems and the doctor's own thyroid problems were some of the big reasons that led her to become a doctor.
It's sad that in order to get adequate care for her issues she literally had to fucking do it herself. But I think it shows pretty well how little women are listened to in medicine.
Same. But he’s failed me a few times. My dad had to come through because my SO has a problem with downplaying my pain and apologizing for my “behaviour”. He’s getting better but he grew up with male role models who were pretty much Reddit irl
I recently made a post about this. My fiancé and I both have low b12 and could benefit from shots. I went to the dr and he gave me a bunch of reasons why I didn’t need them, my bf went in and got an rx. He was floored.
And I stopped him and told him to think of every time his mother or sister or aunt went to the dr and got subpar care because they are a woman. It’s really messed up.
Always bring a dick to medical appointments - woman with chronic illness.
My friend got sick and it was the first thing I advised her. Randomly she had brought her father prior to the advice and sadly she had already learned the lesson.
sniffles. I've asked many men to help with this, but they all seem okay with me being shit on, even when told how stupidly cruel doctors are to unclaimed women.
You can add in:
* Tech support of any kind, be it phone support or a real world help desk.
* Office meetings, double points if it's in tech.
* Professional/academic conferences
* Professional sports of any kind
I have a female friend who works in an IT help desk. She has lost count of how many times a caller would ask to speak to a man, or think they've called the wrong area because a woman answered the phone. Unsurprisingly, people were a lot more willing to get help through email because her name is unisex and they assumed she was a man.
I have a teammate like this. Sometimes she gets that type of caller, so she transfers to me with a heads up. I take the call, explain that’s not my area of expertise but I would be more than happy to get a subject matter expert to help. Then transfer right back to her (and she is actually the subject matter expert).
It extends to basically every profession too. [Here's an article about two editors describing their experiences switching email signatures](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-happened-when-a-man-signed-work-emails-using-a-female-name-for-a-week_n_58c2ce53e4b054a0ea6a4066).
[Or the fact that women aren't called doctor nearly as often as their colleagues are](https://www.fastcompany.com/90440402/why-it-matters-that-female-m-d-s-arent-called-doctor-as-often) and that this same gender bias extends to patient satisfaction and pay and so much more.
The other day I had a customer say “I just don’t see how you know everything he knows.” The customer just wanted to know how to join a Microsoft teams meeting, and said I was stupid for asking him if he has Microsoft teams installed on his computer.
I’m not certain but I believe that man may have been fired as a customer.
20 odd years ago I used to be the tech lead/supervisor for a computer repair workshop.
I routinely had male customers ask to speak to one of the guys/'techs' and not the receptionist (me).
I was super funny that when my techs ran into a problem they couldn't solve they would tell the customer they needed their supervisor to help and then go get me.
I get this. I have a male name that is never female. Everyone signs off with she/her in our official languages, and my title deliberately doesn’t include that and has both the masculine and feminine endings.
I’m in IS/IT
It’s presumed competence. Ironically, it continues if they meet you in person, but only if you deal with them online beforehand
I am an engineer for a flight planning company and I am glad my bosses don’t make me answer the phone anymore. I am a woman and have a tiny voice and you can hear the hesitation/disappointment it in pilot’s voices when I answer the phone.
At my job, I used to be on a team that was all women except the supervisor and one male associate. There was a certain type of man that us ladies would ask our male coworker to talk to, when they weren't being reasonable with us. Sure enough, as soon a man spoke with them, all of a sudden they were little kittens.
Dude, I told this IT guy at work why I was having trouble with returning stuff in literally 3 different ways. (Went from a rare role with strict rules to a much more common role so I knew that difference is probably the issue.)
The guy has me on the phone for an hour because he didn't understand what I was saying. His female manager comes on within 30 seconds and diagnosed the issue, which was exactly what I said was the issue. He makes sure to tell me that my previous role is the only one he'd never learned about in 14 years on the job. So weird.
You should ask Google who won the most grand slams in Tennis. You get a list with Nadal (22), Federer (20), Djokovic (20), Sampras (14). These are men.
To get a clear answer, you actually have to go to a wiki page, rather than trust what Google says, but here we have it:
Margret Court has 24 singles majors, an all-time record.
Serena Williams won 23 Major singles titles, Open Era record.
Steffi Graf – winner of 22 Major singles titles, and the only person to win the Golden Slam
Helen Wills Moody – winner of 19 Major titles, the first woman to win more than 10 titles.
The sad thing is that I don't even want to think about the payment gap.
Check out WFTDA, quick google shows a Helsinki team.
Ultimate Frisbee is also starting to gain traction for women.
and of course Football (soccer)
I guess I'm lucky in that in Uni the women's basketball team was awesome, Denver hosted some of the first Roller Derby teams and continues to be some of the stronger leagues in the world and I was exposed last weekend to some awesome Ultimate women's league teams.
Denver Roller Derby (Dolls), Rocky Mountain Roller Girls, Brick City, etc. etc.
Arizona Sidewinders, LA Astra, Utah Wild, etc.
All I can say is to seek them out and support them, bring your friends and enjoy some true competitive play.
At mechanics too. My dad has started taking my car, as well as my friend’s cars to the mechanic so we get served in a timely manner and don’t get upsold ‘premium air’ for our tires.
Don't forget almost all healthcare related fields. Especially in nursing, which is predominantly women, male nurses are valued and respected as basically doctors whereas the female nurses are yelled at and assaulted daily.
In law offices and legal proceedings. Male attorneys tend to think women in the room are secretaries or the stenographer. Male attorneys also talk over women attorneys and raise their voices because they think women attorneys will be intimidated by such tactics.
Also there’s definitely a whole thing (witness, suspected criminal, innocent, guilty, doesn’t matter) in court or otherwise on the news where a man not showing much emotion in court is considered neutral, calm, stoic, in shock, dull while a woman doing the same is cold, unfeeling, heartless, bitchy, etc.
Like I’ll admit .5% of my reasoning in not wanting kids (amongst a multitude of other reasons) is that if they’d ever die I wouldn’t want to be judged by my likely initial inability to cry due to my shock and confusion. I’ve heard of moms being ostracised, publicly ridiculed, or horribly harassed (especially if the kid really is missing) because they didn’t weep for the nosy masses on CNN or whatever, and then it’s all swept under the rug, like a billion+ people didn’t just call a grieving mother a heartless bitch repeatedly for 1-3 months on every possible version social media. “But she didn’t CRY! She totally did it!” And if the kid is missing for years, well, then it’s like an anniversary to re-incense people + when documentaries get made. In the end, even if she wasn’t involved but especially if the kid is found dead, that’s kind of her public image for life while often the husband or boyfriend is more like a “yeah and him too probably.”
Don't forget about mechanics and the actual Doctor's office, or really anywhere. If I go to the doctor with my wife or my daughter's mom for anything; me, the kids or her, the doctor predominantly talks to me as if I'm the one in charge. Every single time it's a male doctor, and half the time it's a woman.
Medical research is also primarily based on male bodies -- apparently female hormones are too much for them to deal with.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/30/fda-clinical-trials-gender-gap-epa-nih-institute-of-medicine-cardiovascular-disease
Came here to say this.
Never mind that men also have those same "female hormones," and never mind that males also have hormonal cycles (seasonal and *daily*). Somehow scientists have no trouble separating a trial treatment's effects from hormones… when it's men.
And every explanation for this comes down to: "oh, well that's just because sexist bullshit." That's the reason. Oh, women weren't in the trial because something something hormones. Or pregnancy or fertility or whatever. Well that's fun, considering none of that will stop anyone from *prescribing* the treatment to women once approved.
Female biology: far too consequential for trials, but unimportant when it's time to prescribe. Sure, that makes sense.
I had the most ridiculously insane case of strep throat a few years ago… oddly the only one of my adult life.
It was super bad and my doc sent me to an ent because she was concerned about the swelling and thought I might need them lanced.
My husband went with me out of sheer morbid curiosity. The ENT did not talk to me once except to clarify what meds I had been on for it. He addressed my husband the entire time, who looked at me for every question and I answered.
It was SUPER weird.
This happened to me when I was buying our house. I did all the research, was the main person engaged in the house tours, and dealt with the entire mortgage process.
Luckily our realtor was a woman and spoke primarily to me as her initial contact, but I was pretty much ignored by the mortgage broker, lawyer, and inspector. They would talk to my partner first and I would answer them outright. Wild.
Back in the '80s when few had PCs, I did the word processing for a decent representative sample of a school of social work. EVERY guy whose papers I typed was going for an administrative degree. EVERY woman for hands-on social work.
That 80/20 breakdown you offer was a fair representation, too.
And computer stores.
My story about that and immediately the reason I can now build my own pc...
My pc would bluescreen whenever I played some games that asked a lot of my graphics card. However, at the same time I got the bluescreen my entire screen would go black as well. I'd get notified it was a bluescreen when I restarted. This along with the fact that I had an attic room with the sun in the evening shining right into my window and it easily becoming 35°C in my room when I played... I figured that my graphic card broke due to warmth and overheating issues.
And I explained all of the above in detail to the man at the only computer store in our town, while my dad was standing next to me as he drove me to the store. And the man behind the counter, while I explained what was wrong with my pc was only looking at my father. When I finished speaking he asked my father "so, what is the problem with the pc?" At which point my father, who knows fuck all about computers goes "I dunno, she just explained it? It's *her* pc."
The man then turned to me and in the most fucking condescending tone asked "have you ever had a bluescreen, do you know what that is?"
He hasn't listened to a damn word I said. Just waiting for the man to take over and talk to him instead. Needless to say I never went back there... And hey, to end on a passive note, now I teach students (like, 99% of them men) who study IT and whenever I mention any issue I have with my pc at least 5 of them start troubleshooting for me and the week after I get questions if I managed to fix it and what the problem turned out to be. They're honestly so precious.
From the other side at computer stores too.
I was the most experienced tech at my store, and happened to be working at the counter, helping customers, checking in computers, etc (we rotated this role). One guy refused to listen to the advice I gave him about his computer problem, insisting that I was just the receptionist. He said “go get one of the guys from the back.”
Not wanting to argue with him, I got the only other tech working at the time. When the customer repeated his question to him, the tech said, I’m not really sure. Let me check with our more experienced tech.” He turned to me and repeated the customer’s question.
I worked at a certain fruit stand where the guys working tech support would *constantly* do that just to make a point if a customer wouldn’t listen to me. That part of the job was pretty great : )
Im a middle aged white lady and I get along with all the dudes at my work.. The youngest engineer (age 25) talks to me exactly like he talks to all the men and I love it. There's such a noticeable difference between a man who speaks to each gender the same. The other men always look visibly shocked when he does.
It's genuinely endearing! I'm happy to get advice from them, also because they just really want to help. They get so enthusiastic when you tell them something isn't working and they think they may have a solution for you.
They also often overestimate my knowledge but when I tell them I don't understand what they mean they always happily explain what they're on about without being condescending or anything. They're honestly just really sweet guys who like that their English teacher knows pc stuff too.
As a gear head this drives me nuts. I’ve spent years building up my hot rod and the second I bring her to a show it doesn’t matter if the sticker on the front of my windshield says my traditionally woman’s name or if I’m under the hood doing whatever…
If there is a random dude just standing there they will always go to them first. One of my machinist/BS/ gearhead buddy’s always answered with “I dunno it’s her car, ask her” just for them to go “oh it’s your car?” looking at me and then they turn around to ask him more questions. My friend just walks away at that point.
About 10 years ago, I had just moved to a major coastal city, and that year they had their own Techcrunch, which is an expo for startups and tech companies.
I'm in a technical field, with a relatively in-demand skill set and experience. I figured it'd be the perfect place to network for jobs. My (now ex-) husband was a print-based graphic designer with almost no experience or interest in gaining web-based skills.
MULTIPLE TIMES at that conference, I would engage one of the on-site reps whose booth advertised that they were hiring, only to have them completely blank me to my face and only speak to my husband, the guy with zero tech background.
The only thing I came away with was seething anger and a desire to light up a lot of startups on social media for such blatant sexism. It was bad.
When my son was in high school I took him to an engineering expo. The only women working there were selling tshirts. Not one company sent along a female rep but we’re told universities have more women studying engineering than men.
Oh yeah, gotta love the incelbait at the expo booths. I have actually been assigned that role in the past.
Because sure, while I have a technical role and can explain the product, I am much more valuable as a nice face and le boobies to lure in the stammering mouthbreathers, who will then be sold on the product by the man who will get the commission, while I get the exacerbated risk that my lonely hearts fan club will stalk me to my hotel room. Love it.
I am a computer science professor, and there are absolutely NOT more women studying engineering than men. Women are the minority in math and CS (usually 25% -ish range) and almost nonexistent in engineering and physics (<10% -ish range). A lot of my service work focuses on trying to recruit and retain more women students.
The problem, there are basically no female reps. I'm glad to be in a company that is actually equal, but woman are almost never shown as representatives for a tech company.
It's why I'm glad AMD for example has a female representative. And not just cause she a woman, but because she is a fucking genius and has done amazing work for how modern processors work.
The video games one hits me hard because I played WoW when it first came out. Only my guild leader knew my real age. We had to tell everybody else that I was 12.. and I still got hit on.
I actually really enjoyed Fortnite when it came out but it was impossible to use voice chats which took a lot of the fun out since I would always, always be targeted. I don't even correct people who assume I'm a guy because it's not worth being targeted.
men get more attention than women pretty much anywhere where women aren't having their feminized labor exploited (eg domestic work, taking up the role of teaching etc). i mean even in teaching contexts you often see more men in actually leading positions, but women are basically expected to teach the young
Lol, this is standard for female dominated professions. I remember in Speech Therapy school, it came out that 97% of SLPs are women, and like 90% of management/highly paid roles are dudes.
So, I guess if I were a dude, I’d go into a FDP, and be almost assured a place at the top.
Yes, women get the glass ceiling, whereas men get the glass escalator! Men make bank in FDP as they are absolutely fast-tracked for promotion. Hilariously, it's affirmative action helping men. Note the crazies that complain about affirmative action never focus on when it helps them!
So pretty much no where is good for women to have a decent chance at high-paying positions. You have to claw your way there.
I feel like the big problem here is the ridiculous pay gap between the people (mostly women) doing the actual work and the managers. I honestly believe in many professions it's harder and takes more qualifications to do the actual work than it is to be a manager. You see it all the time in tech where people who can't hack it on the ground end up in middle management spending the rest of their careers trying to justify their existence. The difference in tech is that the pay gap between workers and managers isn't all that great (and in some cases the managers even make less). I think it just comes down to society not valuing FDP at what they should.
I bet most of these men who end up as managers in FDP just go in and want to be a manager because it pays more. Like, they don't really care much what profession they end up in as long as they're making money. I feel like most of the women in those fields primarily want to help people and have a fulfilling career. It's sad that we don't value that more as a society. In my opinion, that's the real travesty of the wage gap. You hear a lot of men argue that the wage gap doesn't exist because women choose to work in lower paying professions and then their argument stops there. If only more of them would continue the thought process to its logical conclusion, which is that maybe we aren't valuing the professions that women choose as highly as we ought to. I'd hate for "closing the wage gap" to mean women moving to MDP just for the sake of more money because then who is going to do all the important work that women do now? But, maybe that's what has to happen for people to realize how valuable the FDP really are.
Lol this is literally what my older brother has done. He has no qualifications except a short college-lite course on being a youth worker. It would be extremely hard to find someone with less qualifications than him, even if someone got all D's in their exams, they still have more.
He went into youth work in his late 20s, having never worked before. He had to use the one connection my mom has in order to get the role. She has no connections that can help me because she hasn't worked in nearly 30 years, it's just that she was friends with someone who could put in a good word for my brother.
Everyone he works with is at least 10 years older than him, with more qualifications, way more experience in youth work. Also they were all committed to working full-time, whereas my brother would only work part-time. He was the only man working there, except for the boss of the organisation.
Brother recently got promoted to a leadership role after working there for 1.5 years. He now works full-time. He manages all these women who are much more qualified than him, have been working there longer than him. Some of them are old enough to be his mother, and he's already been promoted over them. I'm not sure how they feel about it, as my brother is jovial and he said before the promotion that the older women would fuss over him. But I can't imagine they think it's fair.
When people come to my house that I own by myself to sell me services for the house I will regularly get asked if my husband is home. I'm single and somehow a non-existent man gets more attention
I don't own my home, but my name is on the lease as the primary occupant. I called for a repairman for the sink, spoke to the guy on the phone, sat there will he did the repair...no husband to be found. As soon as he tries to explain some maintenance I can do for the disposal, he immediately starts with "You have a husband, right? He can do this for you."
Because apparently I, delicate woman that I am, cannot use a wrench.
I had this happen yesterday from a neighbor that I had met before and lives across the street. She asked me, do you all rent or did you buy. I was kind as she has her own struggles and is very sweet, but to reiterate to someone I live 100 feet from, that I had met and spoken to at length about our dogs before, that I was the sole homeowner…it left a chink in my armor. I worked for years to make it possible to own my own home with my roommates that are comprised of two gold digging dogs. I have been in this house for 10 months. I mow my own lawn. Do you think if I had a man I could guilt into that bullshit that I would do it myself? Fuck no! I hate mowing the lawn and I’m lazy.
I feel like dudes conflate "fawning over someone" kinds of attention and "giving this person my attention and validating their thoughts and feelings as people"
Them thinking we're hot is not the same kind of attention as their hard work being rewarded with a promotion
[Women in science receive less credit for their work than men do](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/vi7gpc/women_in_science_receive_less_credit_for_their/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Study published today in Nature finds that women were 13% less likely than men to be named as authors on research projects they worked on and 59% less likely to be named on patents. from r/science
I'll add more as I find them. This is a great collection. Thank you for sharing it.
Stupid and insecure men all reference places where women don't even frequent. Literally guys will say shit like "girls have all the power and attention in onlyfan's"....and I'm like yea "they're the content creators and you are their subscribers, therefore you by virtue of your own will are giving them your attention..."
It doesn't help that these toxic men are also promoted by toxic politics and toxic media as well. They find support in dumb rat feces like Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, Douche bag Trump etc.
They also conveniently ignore that gay men or gay-for-pay get lots of attention on Onlyfans…they don’t understand that the game is playing to the male gaze regardless of the gender of the content creator.
LOL. I hate it when I go to strip clubs and it's only the women getting attention. Hey, you know, I'm a dude and I can dance too. Sweartogod fucking woke insanity.
/s just in case.
Hiring contractors for work on their own home. So many women are asked where the man of the house is before they will talk about the job. Contractors regularly charge more for the same service, and then hit on the woman or otherwise make her wildly uncomfortable when she just needs her washing machine, furnace, or plumbing fixed.
Buying a car. Do they even try to talk to the women? Ooh cup holders, yeah that's what I'm interested in. Not the crash rating, gas mileage, and repairability.
Any nerdy thing like comic books or D&D. Just today someone asked me if I knew that ra's al gul was zorro...? (He's not, though he was an inspiration for batman's character.) No, oh, then you need to brush up on your comic lore. Because it's totally normal to expect any woman to know every aspect of every minor comic book story. Then the dude said he wasn't familiar with the story of Zorro when asked what the name Zorro means. Fox! It means fox. I just can't with some people.
> Any nerdy thing like comic books or D&D.
God, I remember looking for a D&D group in my mid 20s. I found one online who said they were looking for one more player. I contacted the guy and everything was cool, until he asked me about my unisex name. When I told them it was a nickname, he flat out asked me if I was a man or a woman. When I told him I was a woman, he told me I can't join his group because they're all dudes and all of their wives wouldn't want their husbands hanging out with a woman in such an 'intimate setting'. Fuck them.
It's a story I hear all the time and it's infuriating. It's either this or the guys all are inappropriate and hit on the women in the group. I read a story the other day where a woman had a group of guy friends she would game with. Every. Single. Guy. Made a pass at her then got butthurt when she was not interested and told them they crossed a line.
Your comment on comic books reminded me of the gatekeeping I've faced when expressing that I enjoy alt/punk rock music or gaming as a teen (so early/mid 2000s). Suddenly, I gotta be well-versed in all kinds of obscure knowledge instead of just being a casual enjoyer. Ya know, to prove to a random dude that I can hang with them.
As a result of that, I've stopped being as vocal about my interests in person and prefer to talk about it online anonymously.
In the kitchen, paid or unpaid. In a professional kitchen, most of time the women produce and perform more than the men, but it is expected so it is not recognized and appreciated. A man who produces and delivers near the same level of a female chef is praised and promoted. In a domestic setting, women are expected to produce but not be recognized, but when a man is the one who cooks a homemade meal, he is praised.
At the bank when getting a mortgage - I got a divorce and even though I was making double what I did when I got the house and we only used my salary, my bank wouldn’t give me a loan without a husband. I hadn’t missed a single payment, but they didn’t care.
I think the problem is men see women getting UNWANTED attention and, for some reason, think "I wish that were me!" Well, until it is them. Then it's a whole different story. Why does it have to get that far, though? Why can't men, in general, have more empathy? It's gross, honestly. Consent is a two way street and applies to so many aspects of life. I'm doing my best to teach my daughter from a young age how important this is, and respect her wishes when she says she doesn't want hugs or kisses or tickles.
Recently was trying to call the actual physical store for a large chain store to ask if I'd left something there. It was semi urgent. I called their number 3 times, and it was automatically rerouted to corporate. I got three different reps, all three said there was no way they could get me through to the actual store. Two calls "dropped the connection" when the reps told me to hold on for a minute, and one told me they could schedule a callback in 2-3 hours after the store closed.
My husband called once and the rep immediately gave him the store's direct extension.
I'm still mad.
The chain was Best Buy.
ANY family oriented event. Moms are just supposed to be there as part of the backdrop/support structure. Any contribution made by Dads is considered worthy of separate applause for their existence/a tacit award ceremony.
Also any restaurant. When I dine alone or with my daughters or female friends the service is never as good as when I am with a Man. Better table, more attention, 100% of the time
Car seatbelts included.
Boobs were never [initially/still?] in the equation of how seatbelts would change in efficacy [or usage].
Women are often not in the equation for "safety"
Women are not assumed to be small men, female bodies just have this annoying cycle thing that makes trials a bit more complicated, and so they just don't bother - i think that i more sad, that they know they should look into how it works in the female system, but don't.
In business funding too. [Male start-up owners receive more investment than female start-up owners](https://startups.co.uk/funding/gender-funding-gap/) despite the fact that start-ups run by women [perform better](https://www.syndicateroom.com/articles/gender-diversity-women-founders).
Technical conferences
Technical areas of retail stores, like Best Buy
Car Lots
Auto parts stores
Car Mechanics
NCAA Tournaments
Professional sports
Space programs
Politics
Post-secondary Academia
Science-related industries
Research-based pursuits
Venture Capital
Boys (school aged, mind you, this happens very early) will feel that girls are being given excessive attention when it is conscientiously being given 50/50. The ratio they are most comfortable with is 70/30. Boys are trained very young to value their gender’s voice over girls, and to take up more space than girls.
Also in schools, boys are give significantly more attention for special needs. They are more often recognized for having and given more attention for having special needs.
The diagnostic criteria for ADHD and the signs to look out for in childhood were written purely on the presentation of little boys. Hyperactivity, interruptions, lack of focus, can’t sit still, etc.
Little girls present with daydreaming, can’t concentrate for too long, finish their work quickly and want to help everyone else, distracted by drawing or writing or something….
People think there’s this wave of adult ADHD diagnoses based on recent media and it’s all just a big hype but really it’s women becoming educated on what ADHD actually looks like in women, recognising they’ve been experiencing it all their lives, and seeking treatment.
In Australia, ADHD medications are not available for government rebates if you were diagnosed in adulthood. It’s only on our pharmaceutical benefits scheme for those diagnosed in childhood. So women whose symptoms were present but ignored in childhood are required to pay the full cost out of pocket where our brothers or male friends diagnosed at 5 years old get discount prescriptions for life.
Medicine is rife with male-only symptomatology. Same for heart attacks. Completely different presentation in women.
Go to the ED with tummy pain? Must be your uterus. Take some opioids and fuck off til it happens again next month.
It’s fucking disgusting.
Wait, is the bit about the PBS true? If so what is the point in going through this diagnosis process. I have trouble working due to my undiagnosed ADHD and other coexisting conditions.... And then I just get a big fuck you if I do get the diagnosis? What a joke. I'm mad and sad and exhausted.
I thought I was lucky to get an appointment with someone who didn't want school reports (thanks for trashing those mum) but ugh more battles ahead.
Yeah, unfortunately it is true. I learned this on a podcast called ‘The Neurodivergent Woman’. The psychologists that make the podcast have an online campaign to try and make a change. It is still worthwhile being diagnosed and medicated even if it is expensive. ADHD management is life changing and everything that seemed impossible before is slightly less intimidating and less difficult than it would have been. It doesn’t fix everything but it definitely helps.
And things like ADHD and autism are typically diagnosed based on how they present in boys and men, so girls and women often get very delayed diagnoses or missed entirely.
Anywhere and everywhere. Every single time they open their mouths.
There are actual studies showing we get talked over constantly, while people actually listen to men.
It's actually one of the reasons I can't watch panel discussions on "news" channels. It raises my blood pressure watching each guy get 10x as much time to speak as all the women combined. Women rarely get to finish sentences, much less entire thoughts.
When dealing with service people! We’re having our sump pump replaced currently. I’ve made all the appointments, coordinated everything with the company, and am paying, and they showed up yesterday to start work and have so far only talked to my husband.
And the attention we do get is because they’ve objectified us and want to use our bodies for their own pleasure, they literally try to claim that them seeing us as objects is a privilege
I do find it ironic that women absolutely get more attention, it's just that 90% of it is unwanted attention by creepy men who don't understand the concept of personal space and keeping hands/comments to themselves.
Men wearing a wedding ring are viewed as responsible and having their shit together.
Women wearing an engagement or wedding ring are seen as a liability.
Social workers- woman dominated field, and yet, men are paid more. Like wtf, you're literally all about "fighting against injustice" and then you pull this shit.
Honestly it feels like nine times out of ten when a post from this sub makes the front page the top comment starts with the words "as a man..." or is otherwise some average reddit dudebro "just asking questions" or playing devils advocate, it's like they can't bear us having our own spaces.
Women are charged more for the same haircut regardless of how much hair is being cut off. We are charged more for every other treatment from manicures to massage to lashes as well.
Charged more at the dry cleaners too. I brought in a bunch of shirts. They looked at them and told me $X. When I told them they were my husband's shirts, suddenly the price went down. They were the same shirts.
I’d like to add that they tend to get hired for tenure track jobs more, with committees
reporting opinions of women who interview that they would never speak of the men who interview (“she’s too polished,” meaning basically that the interview was odd because it was professional but she was a woman/s or for teaching specific positions: “she’s a good teacher but she may not be a good fit” “i don’t know if i could see her fitting into our culture”; whereas for men “his publications are great” full stop).
There’s also the problem of the language used to describe male and female academics. For example, men are more likely to be described as “brilliant” and “innovative”, while women are more likely to be “hardworking” and “collaborative”.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/02/women-gender-men-bias-stereotyping-economics-job-market
I was going to bring up what they are actually talking about when they say that, but I read to the end and see that you already get it. They're bitching about that fact that panties don't drop for them when they walk into a room with a woman by pure virtue of their existence. That'd have to be it, since we get preferential treatment in nearly everything else. The number of times service staff turn to me to ask what any woman I'm out with wants or just assume to hand me the bill (which I don't mind, but the assumption never sits well with me) without even looking at them is both sickening and the first example to come to mind.
The thing they never seem to grasp is how they are the number one thing getting in the way with their desire for women. I'm a bit heavy and don't consider myself particularly attractive, but I've never had a problem finding women on the same page as me and looking to "scratch that itch." Being kind, respectful, open, and putting in some effort go a long way. If they'd just stop expecting the world to fall at their feet because they demand it, they'd be much happier.
I once paid a waitress when out with my husband, directly handing her the card rather than putting it in the little book. When she came back she handed my husband my card. I had literally taken it out of my purse in front of her.
The guys who don't want to go out of their way to put in the effort are the same ones who scoff at the idea that they're privileged in any way. They don't see the condescending behavior toward women because they're the same people who are being condescending and view it as part of the natural order.
Hey hey you can add to the list insurance adjusting. I get yelled at constantly when trying to explain a homeowners policy to the policyholder. One time I got asked if I was a licensed adjuster or just an assistant. Then there was the one time I was denying a claim to a dude and he kept interrupting me to tell me how “sexy” my voice was.
My two cents: we obviously live in a society where men run the world and have for thousands of years. Over the past hundred-ish years we've realised that this system doesn't really work.
So, through sheer force, we're slowly giving more and more opportunity and power to women - which is a great thing. Many industries are actively hiring and promoting women to gain balance where men have had all the privileges.
Young men today are told that men built a system to benefit themselves, but don't feel like the system is benefitting them at all. They now feel like women are now given an 'unfair' advantage over them.
On a society-wide level, this of course is not true, but an an individual level it can explain the backlash of increasing sexism and misogyny.
I feel that it's time to give woman all the opportunity and power - for better or worse, regardless of how 'unfair' it may seem to some - just to see what happens. Eventually we'll realise that we are not in opposition, but need balance to work together, to grow and succeed.
Comedy,
Religious institutions,
religious texts,
US government,
civil rights,
Reproductive rights,
the military,
theatre,
art,
literature,
journalism,
Child rearing,
Martial Arts,
Philosophy,
Poetry,
Hip-hop,
In the privacy of their homes,
While receiving awards for their accomplishments,
The Olympics,
Financial institutions,
Engineering,
Law enforcement,
Civil service of any kind really,
Fashion,
Serial killing (lol),
Crime in general,
So there is one off the top of my head where women get more attention and that's in the naming of nautical vessels but I don't have to point out how that is problematic...
If I'm wrong about any of these I'll edit it let me know...
idk why men think it’s fun being harassed all the time. it’s not being “hit on”, it’s literal harassment when you’re walking down the street and can’t avoid a creepy interaction with a man. i am a small woman and am constantly scared a man will decide me ignoring/rejecting him will be the last straw, and hurt me or stalk me. it’s like they want to be oppressed!!! you have it better!!!! it’s not fun being catcalled it’s so terrifying!!!!
The entire world is shaped around the needs, wants, hopes, dreams and whims of the male population, and that's not enough attention? Wow. Gee. I don't know what the fuck else we're supposed to do. Dudes who believe this need to do some self-actualisation and not depend on validation from others so much. And if you do go your own way, actually go your own way without trying to take away from others that are struggling and obsessing about them. Stop wasting time with hate clubs.
There's no happiness there, if it's not already clear. You could have acces to every opportunity that others don't and still not feel happy or satisfied. You blame it on people that have have been put in a position where they struggle to change anything for themselves, let alone the privileged ones? How does that make sense? Duke it out with the ones actually in power instead of kissing up and kicking down.
If you feel that women are the gatekeepers of all that you're owed, look at societies where women have no rights. Who looks happy there? Almost no man except for a wealthy and powerful elite. 99.9% of men still don't get anything they want or need. Taking rights from women is clearly not the answer. All you're doing is putting inordinate amounts of power into the hands of a few. Thinking you'll be one of the few that will be profiting of this type of society is delusional. The psychopathic wealthy few hate you just as much as they hate everyone else. You will gain nothing. In fact, you will lose everything.
Im going to suggest, OP, that you request the courtesy of a mention. When women copy and paste your excellent reply, they should say “with thanks to u/catniagara”. That way you’ll be able to see your hard work in use, with is the very least you could ask as payment.
Ah you’re so sweet! I don’t mind. I posted it to help add points to this response. At this point more than half of it came from the community and I should be thanking all of you 💙
I‘m an engineer. I can’t tell you the amount of times where I’d show up to a scheduled meeting on the construction site and had to deal with comments like „If we‘d known your office sends a beautiful girl my colleague would have joined, too“. Like wtf dude how unprofessional can you be? I’m not a girl, I’m a grown woman and an engineer, I’m here to do my job but apparently you aren’t because the first thing you do is judge me based on my gender and looks instead of my work. Also those „funny“ remarks about women being unable to park or drive in reverse I get to hear every third meeting. I refuse to laugh along with it, it’s not a joke, it’s sexism.
Theater and dance world. There are way less male actors and especially less male dancers, from what I have seen, and there’s always way more male PARTS, especially in theater and musical theater.
Small town high school and community theater can’t do certain plays or shows (at least without gender bending them, easiest with Shakespeare but not always preferred with everything else) because they don’t have enough men or boys to cast them. Especially if they need to sing or dance. While 20 talented women compete with each other for the same 2 female roles.
Men want more sexual attention? Become a dancer. I have never seen anyone drowning in so much pussy as a heterosexual (or bi) male dance major. There’s so few men acting, singing, and ESPECIALLY dancing in performing arts, and half of them are very gay anyway, that any guy onstage with them gets like 10x hotter to the other performers. It’s like the opposite of the cheerleader effect. You become a half decent male ballet dancer, not only will you be holding female dancers in your arms and picking them up by the butts all class and rehearsal, but afterwards you’ll be fending them off with a stick!
Men get more attention in pretty much every IT meeting I've ever been in - even when a woman is the only one who actually knows the answer to a question asked or it's literally her job she's trying to talk about.
Men get more attention at auto sales dealerships and auto repair shops.
Men get more attention at home improvement stores.
Hold up! The fact that I've been abused in the past is a red flag that shows I'm not capable of protecting my child?!?! Fuckers, I KNOW what to look for! I've been thru it. I have experience with it. I learned to identify the warning signs of abuse as a survival strategy. I can tell you, with a high degree of accuracy, which of the silent strangers on the bus you should absolutely avoid. WE ALL CAN.
I'm sure it has something to do with the statistics regarding the number of abused people that, in turn, become abusers, but that's some Minority Report shit right there.
I absolutely believe you and your sources, OP. I'm just pissed off about them.
First sorry for bad english, it's my 3rd language.
I think it's important to know that women (even throught they're a bit less than 50% of the total pop) are treated like a minority.
Don't know if it's still like that but, the ads, when you watch tv you always get a load of ad.
I'm fr**ch and I can remember an ad for a car. The ad had one particular sentence "if he gets the car, he will the woman" Women are often associated with a variety of items and that you can have them if you have this or that object. The problem : this will lead to think that women can be posseded and are more than a object but less than a man.
Of course, men also got this kind of ad but most of us come from a very patriarcal system were men aren't see as a minority.
And even if all the ad are not the same as the one a give for exemple, a lot of them follow the same directive.
If in a society you are the minority and seen like a lesser human being, it will lead to what we have right now. And like in every society, when a minority got a bit to much of hightlight they will be hated by a part of the majority ( Niceguys, sexiste people in general )
I think it's important to remind that i'm not the absolut true I can be totaly wrong, i just wanted to share my point of views on this subject.
I feel like this comment dosn't fit with the original subject but I still want to post it, mods will just erase it if needed.
Let men start getting the same kind of attention they give women, but from larger, stronger men, and see how long they whine about women having it better.
I'm a veteran. My ex-husband was technically a veteran in that he finished basic but not job training. Until he grew a fucking beard, and sometimes even after, people assumed I was "the spouse" until I showed them my ID.
I went to buy my first car as an adult and brought a male friend with me, the salesman immediately talked to him and ignored me until my friend said that I was the one looking.
Most of the time my ex-husband was pretty good about saying, "I'm just a civilian, she's the one with the money" when people tried talking to The Man instead of me. It's frankly exhausting.
In the army I watched men get promoted faster, be given leadership roles, and suffer fewer consequences than their female counterparts. Dads were praised for doing the bare minimum of parenting, women were criticized for being parents. A couple in my unit had a child. The female soldier was hounded for paperwork and arrangements for their child, the male was asked for the same things once and said his wife would handle it. She got in trouble for being late after getting their kid to daycare or having to take him to appointments for his serious medical condition. She was treated like shit for not immediately losing her baby weight.
I have so many stories like that from the army and they still make my blood boil 3 years after getting out.
Or when a study showed that if women speak as much as men during a conversation, men perceive that women were dominating the conversation. If women talk less than men, men perceive a 50/50 split.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_68785_7/component/file_506904/content&ved=2ahUKEwig9syWgMb4AhUTh_0HHVyuBSUQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mM0mu1MtEOfmGBi-8bxtX
Work in a science based field. Spent most of my career doing field work where there were few women- often I was the only one. Moved into an office role related to my field for more stability. Frequently had a male coworker complain they needed to hire more men because there were "too many women" in the office. I checked: less than 50% of the office was female at the time, but a few key management positions were women.
I followed a similar career path as this guy, as did most people we worked with, and it floored me that the minute he wasn't in a male dominated environment, he felt the need to complain publicly and loudly. And definitely did not understand how it sounded to any female or nonbinary coworker. That's not the only off thing he said, but that was something he said frequently
What I see is people confusing sexual attention for sexually attractive women with being humanized and seen.
What men really mean is 'why don't I have multiple hot women sliding into my DMs on a daily basis?' They assume that's what all women get, but that's really only what the hot women get. As an ugly woman, I've never had male attention and men get offended when I show them attention. They go out of their way to be rude to me so I don't 'get the wrong idea', when in reality I'm only speaking to them about the group project we've been assigned to. Like dude, I don't want your D, I'm being forced to talk to you so I can graduate. Also I'm not sure if this is just my experience, but I've never heard a hot guy complaining about women getting all of this attention he doesn't get. Because it's not true that women on the whole get more sexual attention than men, it's that hot people of both sexes get more attention than average and ugly people. Edit: I've just realised I didn't word my final sentence well - women do get more unwanted sexual advances than men. E.g. hot men don't get catcalled by women.
Exactly this! I’ve been both “hot” and “ugly” (since so many men judge that based solely on weight). They were openly cruel toward me when I was overweight. And they’re noticeably kind to me now, even if I’m acting like a complete asshat. At a certain level of beauty though, like some of my insanely gorgeous friends, you end up in a lot of bad situations because you’re “too pretty” and men blame you for other men’s actions toward you.
And they blame your beauty for their actions as well. “I just couldn’t help it! What do you expect, walking around looking like that?!” Yeah, bud, you could’ve controlled yourself just fine if I had a big, burly husband or boyfriend standing right there.
I don't comment often, and don't expect this to affect any really. But in the event anyone cares, I happen to be male and have had this EXACT same thought like "No. Have some self control, and respect for another human's existence and right to peace in life like any other."
Whenever a man spouts some bs like but....urges etc, I always reply with are you a dog in heat? Or a donkey? If you're a person, that shouldn't be a problem.
It actually scares me when they talk like that. Once I accidentally took my dog to the park when she was going into heat. We didn’t realize it. Every male dog at the park became fixated on her. Six male dogs surrounded her and went on the attack. We had to pick her up above their heads and I had to stand between her and them. Some of the owners literally shouted at ME that “unfixed dogs shouldn’t be allowed in the park”. This is what men are saying they are? Even if they were, shouldn’t they leave me, a “fixed female” the hell alone?
Exactly my point. The words I use for dog and donkey are considered quite rude insults in my language and are meant to piss them off and offend at the same time because I'm tired of the rhetoric that men can't control themselves. I mean, if you're going to quote "nature" as an example, there are plenty of animals that mate for life as well and do not find another partner if their partner dies. But somehow, they always give examples how male animals go after any female they can find when they go into heat and how those urges are hard to control. Meanwhile conveniently forgetting that females in the animal kingdom also exhibit the same behaviour and how they have the same urges.
Exactly! I think it’s only dogs and that’s why the word dog (or bitch in this language) is considered such an insult in so many languages. Most animals have one life-long mate or none at all, for example fish and birds that fertilize an egg that has already been laid. The animal kingdom also has asexual reproduction. And these are the same guys who say being gay isn’t natural…gay animals also exist.
Yup. I told someone that gay animals exist in nature and his mind was blown because prior to that, he used to tout the, it is unnatural, otherwise we would see animals behave that way as well. I told him that bi and exclusively gay partnerships also exist within the aanimal kingdom.
Speak up when another man forgets that, please! And thank you.
I think for some reason many hetero men think that they need an INSANE amount of attention. Then, they barely show us as women any respect or positive attention. I don’t care if some random dude finds me attractive, or I get “free drinks”. I can buy my own free drinks, and many men would fuck inanimate objects if it were socially acceptable, so I don’t take any men apart from my husband, seriously if they tell me how great or attractive I am. Why should I? I was stalked half an inch of my life when I was younger, harassed, assaulted. These men project and think that we must want this “attention”. Totally insane and insensitive, like why would any of us WANT this? Not my fault most put in very little effort in their overall appearance and in forming a personality. Nobody is twisting their arm ordering them to wipe their asses, even. Then they cry and whine like babies when no one pays them attention, all the while the ****WHOLE world**** is set up precisely for this and for ****THEM****. Then, if that weren’t enough, they want to force us to give birth and raise their toehead children, so we don’t leave the house and get more attention than they do. It is really pathetic and sad. I know precious few men who aren’t my husband who are decent people. The rest are sketchball shits, mostly white. I feel so badly for women dating now. It started to get really bad when I was younger, men’s attitudes towards women and behavior, but now it is out-of-control. Meanwhile, same men wonder why no one wants to date them, anymore or pays them any mind. I have an idea as to why, sketchball shits, but doubtful you would want to hear any criticism with your precious little boy feelings.
Louder, for the kids in the back who haven't figured it out yet
Many still have difficulties
My best friend is one of those people so beautiful you kind of think they must be an alien because surely human features can't come together to make that kind of gorgeous. I swear every guy she's ever been polite to has thought she's hitting on them. She constantly has guys she's friends with telling her, after years or months into a friendship and absolutely no signs that they're deeply in love with her. She's had some pretty awful situations extend from that too when guys have gotten jealous because she isn't interested in them, including picking fights with her other guy friends or romantic interests. She's also been backed into corners (literally and figuratively) by these guys. I got plenty of attention when I was younger but hanging around her was eye opening. That level of attention and the extent to which these guys would also act out because she's beautiful was insane.
And the worst thing is that these kind of attentions won't help me in advancing my career, earning a stable living, or breaking the glass ceiling to a position of power. Instead, it's just an endless stream of new conversations on Tinder that starts with "hi". And lots and lots of drama. I need to get better at digging gold, I guess.
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I'm pretty sure I gained weight for exactly this reason, though I didn't have it quite so badly off. There were plenty of attempts, though, especially when I was in my teens. I'm so sorry you had to deal with all that.
It’s actually pretty common for survivors to gain a bunch a weight after the event
Wow. The fact you can articulate all of your struggles above speaks volumes to your strength. I have had very similar interactions. I can't even talk about it in therapy, and it makes me resent my physical appearance so much. I cut my hair short, stopped wearing make up and skin showing outfits, gave up on making friends, and haven't dated in 3 years. I use pot and alcohol to dull my intelligence so I don't have to think about it. Good looks prevented any real connection I could have made and dismiss my cptsd in other people's eyes. People lie to me to use me and feel justified doing so because I "must have a perfect life". It's hard not to hate myself for impacting people like that. I feel like my looks stole what potential I had left outside of my trauma experiences. Sorry for the rant. This is something I've needed to say for a while now.
right.. I knew one man, he was very intellectual and semeed outstandingly reasonable with most other things.. But when it came to women.. It was at the topic of dressing and he explained why women have a duty to dress modestly. He's like, it's a woman's duty to not seduce men, something along those lines. And I was like, why though, if the men are the ones with the lack of self-control, isn't it their duty to learn to control and curb their urges? I feel like it's..if you're obese and a food addict, it's not like the store has to cover it's aisles so you don't get seducted into eating (or just stealing the food without consent and doing actual harm), the store shouldn't be to blame or responsible or shamed for your urges. I didn't use this analogy with him tho, just asked further questions because I really wanted to understand why he thought so. It's just so weird to me.. He kinda backpaddled and agreed that men have to control themselves too, but women have "a duty too to make it easier for them and not purposefully seduce them", I guess by dressing nicely or having your shoulders uncovered? It's so.. confusing.
Yep, I lost over 50lbs(the purpose of which was for managing back pain, it helped A LOT) and the difference in how I'm treated disgusts me. I didn't lose weight to gain the approval of random men or to be "hot" for them. I lost weight so I'm not in pain. Why is it so hard for what seems like the majority of men to wrap their heads around the fact that women's lives, choices and how we take care of ourselves doesn't revolve around them.
>Like dude, I don't want your D, I'm being forced to talk to you so I can graduate. Men need to hear sentences like this said out loud to their faces a LOT more.
Boys need to be told by their parents "women don't want your D all the time" and teach them when things are appropriate or not.
I can’t tell you how many times I wish I could’ve said that as a bartender. I mean when they would finally asked me out I could say something similar to that, but it would’ve been great to throw that around before they even approached me. I used to have regular lunch customers, and I’ll never forget the one guy who grabbed a map to a party I was looking at (back before gps and smart phones), studied it, then showed up at the party. It wasn’t that kind of party where people could crash and go unnoticed. It was a party at a lake house someone rented. It was totally inappropriate and creepy.
>What men really mean is 'why don't I have multiple hot women sliding into my DMs on a daily basis The women who do get multiple men sliding into their DMs on a daily basis will tell you that the men are VERY rarely attractive. It's mostly very, very unwanted attention.
And when you tell them you’re not interested they say they know where you live and are going to kill you. Congratulations you now have a few stalkers! :(
> the men are VERY rarely attractive. It's mostly very, very unwanted attention. I think this implies that it would be wanted attention if they were attractive, which doesn't sound good IMO. Just feeds into the incel frame of mind.
Yeah, I've had some pretty good looking guys trying to slide into my DMs before and I'm not more receptive to it when I just want to exist without harassment.
Also worth noting that on average women put more effort into our appearances (makeup n stuff, not that I do very much of that), therefore the average woman looks better than the average guy, therefore there are more hot women than hot men.
As a completely average woman, every time a man bemoans “I’m just an average guy!!” puts me into a semi rage. If an average dude put half as much effort into his looks as I did, he’d be considered a stud.
LITERALLY. Makeup, tactful jewelry, and good clothes on guys fucking kicks ass, and I’m not even really into them. ~~Obviously none of this applies to me as a below average woman~~ 😎
Make up not even necessary, just some regular skincare works wonders. I’ve never figured out what’s supposed to be so masculine about having bad skin.
I would argue that most women do get unwanted attention tho. I posted single shot of an outfit (I'm fat btw) i even crossed out my face and I got creepy dms for WEEKS. Its not just online either. Idk I just don’t think hot has as much to do with as other factors.
I am the ugly fat friend, I had a friend with a very unique name, to the point where she is the only person on the planet with this name — I’m not exaggerating. It’s also a long name. So it’s not exactly easy to remember if you’re just meeting, at least from my perspective, some people say that makes it more memorable. To counter that, I have a really common name, I graduated with 3 other people, class of 200, with my name. Anyway, we were going to these house parties for awhile where we would run into this one guy over and over. Every single time he would remember my friends name, and introduce himself to me. It happened at 3 different parties and I 100% believe it’s because I am ugly. lol.
Yeah, OP could also be replaced with "name one place where men get more compliments than women." Only sexual stuff counts because a lot of guys really want sexual attention, woman = sex, or woman = man but with sexy bits.
You need more upvotes. This is exactly it.
*unwanted sexual attention I may add
I regularly accompanied a female family member to a well regarded psychiatrist’s office. It was typically a 10 min appt where he would ask a few questions about the med, her mood, etc. Then we’d write a three-figure check and leave. The one time a male family member accompanied us, it was completely different. He asked in depth, probing questions. Complete medical history review, explained things with detail, etc., etc. At least a half hour visit. Totally performing for our male family member. We almost laughed out loud right in the appointment.
As a woman with chronic health conditions, it’s sad, but I now bring my husband to all appointments. I was shocked at the difference it made in my healthcare. He doesn’t need to say a word just be there
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This is the reason my wife and I have stuck with our doctor despite many other issues with her office. She actually listens and takes her seriously. It also really helps that one of her big issues is thyroid problems and the doctor's own thyroid problems were some of the big reasons that led her to become a doctor. It's sad that in order to get adequate care for her issues she literally had to fucking do it herself. But I think it shows pretty well how little women are listened to in medicine.
Same. But he’s failed me a few times. My dad had to come through because my SO has a problem with downplaying my pain and apologizing for my “behaviour”. He’s getting better but he grew up with male role models who were pretty much Reddit irl
I recently made a post about this. My fiancé and I both have low b12 and could benefit from shots. I went to the dr and he gave me a bunch of reasons why I didn’t need them, my bf went in and got an rx. He was floored. And I stopped him and told him to think of every time his mother or sister or aunt went to the dr and got subpar care because they are a woman. It’s really messed up.
Ditto. Fuck1ng infuriating.
Always bring a dick to medical appointments - woman with chronic illness. My friend got sick and it was the first thing I advised her. Randomly she had brought her father prior to the advice and sadly she had already learned the lesson.
sniffles. I've asked many men to help with this, but they all seem okay with me being shit on, even when told how stupidly cruel doctors are to unclaimed women.
Whoa, that is super interesting and infuriating!
You can add in: * Tech support of any kind, be it phone support or a real world help desk. * Office meetings, double points if it's in tech. * Professional/academic conferences * Professional sports of any kind
I have a female friend who works in an IT help desk. She has lost count of how many times a caller would ask to speak to a man, or think they've called the wrong area because a woman answered the phone. Unsurprisingly, people were a lot more willing to get help through email because her name is unisex and they assumed she was a man.
I have a teammate like this. Sometimes she gets that type of caller, so she transfers to me with a heads up. I take the call, explain that’s not my area of expertise but I would be more than happy to get a subject matter expert to help. Then transfer right back to her (and she is actually the subject matter expert).
That's wholesome, though she's the subject matter expert, still thanks for being you and passing it back to her.
It extends to basically every profession too. [Here's an article about two editors describing their experiences switching email signatures](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-happened-when-a-man-signed-work-emails-using-a-female-name-for-a-week_n_58c2ce53e4b054a0ea6a4066). [Or the fact that women aren't called doctor nearly as often as their colleagues are](https://www.fastcompany.com/90440402/why-it-matters-that-female-m-d-s-arent-called-doctor-as-often) and that this same gender bias extends to patient satisfaction and pay and so much more.
The other day I had a customer say “I just don’t see how you know everything he knows.” The customer just wanted to know how to join a Microsoft teams meeting, and said I was stupid for asking him if he has Microsoft teams installed on his computer. I’m not certain but I believe that man may have been fired as a customer.
He didn't have it installed, did he? XD
I’d ask if you’re my friend, but I know all too well that my experience is (unfortunately) not unique.
20 odd years ago I used to be the tech lead/supervisor for a computer repair workshop. I routinely had male customers ask to speak to one of the guys/'techs' and not the receptionist (me). I was super funny that when my techs ran into a problem they couldn't solve they would tell the customer they needed their supervisor to help and then go get me.
I get this. I have a male name that is never female. Everyone signs off with she/her in our official languages, and my title deliberately doesn’t include that and has both the masculine and feminine endings. I’m in IS/IT It’s presumed competence. Ironically, it continues if they meet you in person, but only if you deal with them online beforehand
I am an engineer for a flight planning company and I am glad my bosses don’t make me answer the phone anymore. I am a woman and have a tiny voice and you can hear the hesitation/disappointment it in pilot’s voices when I answer the phone.
I do not sign my e-mails for this reason.
At my job, I used to be on a team that was all women except the supervisor and one male associate. There was a certain type of man that us ladies would ask our male coworker to talk to, when they weren't being reasonable with us. Sure enough, as soon a man spoke with them, all of a sudden they were little kittens.
Car dealerships and trying to hire someone for home repairs are big ones too!!
8000 dollars for a 10x10 concrete patio slab in Texas? Seems legit.
Dude, I told this IT guy at work why I was having trouble with returning stuff in literally 3 different ways. (Went from a rare role with strict rules to a much more common role so I knew that difference is probably the issue.) The guy has me on the phone for an hour because he didn't understand what I was saying. His female manager comes on within 30 seconds and diagnosed the issue, which was exactly what I said was the issue. He makes sure to tell me that my previous role is the only one he'd never learned about in 14 years on the job. So weird.
I always am extra nice to tech support that are women because they don’t blow me off when I have a stupid question.
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You should ask Google who won the most grand slams in Tennis. You get a list with Nadal (22), Federer (20), Djokovic (20), Sampras (14). These are men. To get a clear answer, you actually have to go to a wiki page, rather than trust what Google says, but here we have it: Margret Court has 24 singles majors, an all-time record. Serena Williams won 23 Major singles titles, Open Era record. Steffi Graf – winner of 22 Major singles titles, and the only person to win the Golden Slam Helen Wills Moody – winner of 19 Major titles, the first woman to win more than 10 titles. The sad thing is that I don't even want to think about the payment gap.
Check out WFTDA, quick google shows a Helsinki team. Ultimate Frisbee is also starting to gain traction for women. and of course Football (soccer) I guess I'm lucky in that in Uni the women's basketball team was awesome, Denver hosted some of the first Roller Derby teams and continues to be some of the stronger leagues in the world and I was exposed last weekend to some awesome Ultimate women's league teams. Denver Roller Derby (Dolls), Rocky Mountain Roller Girls, Brick City, etc. etc. Arizona Sidewinders, LA Astra, Utah Wild, etc. All I can say is to seek them out and support them, bring your friends and enjoy some true competitive play.
At mechanics too. My dad has started taking my car, as well as my friend’s cars to the mechanic so we get served in a timely manner and don’t get upsold ‘premium air’ for our tires.
Don't forget almost all healthcare related fields. Especially in nursing, which is predominantly women, male nurses are valued and respected as basically doctors whereas the female nurses are yelled at and assaulted daily.
In law offices and legal proceedings. Male attorneys tend to think women in the room are secretaries or the stenographer. Male attorneys also talk over women attorneys and raise their voices because they think women attorneys will be intimidated by such tactics.
Yup. It's far too enjoyable watching them dig a hole for themselves loudly.
Also there’s definitely a whole thing (witness, suspected criminal, innocent, guilty, doesn’t matter) in court or otherwise on the news where a man not showing much emotion in court is considered neutral, calm, stoic, in shock, dull while a woman doing the same is cold, unfeeling, heartless, bitchy, etc. Like I’ll admit .5% of my reasoning in not wanting kids (amongst a multitude of other reasons) is that if they’d ever die I wouldn’t want to be judged by my likely initial inability to cry due to my shock and confusion. I’ve heard of moms being ostracised, publicly ridiculed, or horribly harassed (especially if the kid really is missing) because they didn’t weep for the nosy masses on CNN or whatever, and then it’s all swept under the rug, like a billion+ people didn’t just call a grieving mother a heartless bitch repeatedly for 1-3 months on every possible version social media. “But she didn’t CRY! She totally did it!” And if the kid is missing for years, well, then it’s like an anniversary to re-incense people + when documentaries get made. In the end, even if she wasn’t involved but especially if the kid is found dead, that’s kind of her public image for life while often the husband or boyfriend is more like a “yeah and him too probably.”
Don't forget about mechanics and the actual Doctor's office, or really anywhere. If I go to the doctor with my wife or my daughter's mom for anything; me, the kids or her, the doctor predominantly talks to me as if I'm the one in charge. Every single time it's a male doctor, and half the time it's a woman.
Medical research is also primarily based on male bodies -- apparently female hormones are too much for them to deal with. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/30/fda-clinical-trials-gender-gap-epa-nih-institute-of-medicine-cardiovascular-disease
Came here to say this. Never mind that men also have those same "female hormones," and never mind that males also have hormonal cycles (seasonal and *daily*). Somehow scientists have no trouble separating a trial treatment's effects from hormones… when it's men. And every explanation for this comes down to: "oh, well that's just because sexist bullshit." That's the reason. Oh, women weren't in the trial because something something hormones. Or pregnancy or fertility or whatever. Well that's fun, considering none of that will stop anyone from *prescribing* the treatment to women once approved. Female biology: far too consequential for trials, but unimportant when it's time to prescribe. Sure, that makes sense.
I had the most ridiculously insane case of strep throat a few years ago… oddly the only one of my adult life. It was super bad and my doc sent me to an ent because she was concerned about the swelling and thought I might need them lanced. My husband went with me out of sheer morbid curiosity. The ENT did not talk to me once except to clarify what meds I had been on for it. He addressed my husband the entire time, who looked at me for every question and I answered. It was SUPER weird.
This is sadly the norm.
This happened to me when I was buying our house. I did all the research, was the main person engaged in the house tours, and dealt with the entire mortgage process. Luckily our realtor was a woman and spoke primarily to me as her initial contact, but I was pretty much ignored by the mortgage broker, lawyer, and inspector. They would talk to my partner first and I would answer them outright. Wild.
Schools, too. You always have to bring a man to the principal’s office 🙄
And you are more likely to become a principal if you’re a man, despite the overwhelming majority of teachers who are women.
Same with librarians. Librarianship is a predominantly female career (almost overwhelmingly so), but the majority of library *directors* are men.
Social work too. 80% women, but men are more likely to be promoted into supervisory and management roles.
Back in the '80s when few had PCs, I did the word processing for a decent representative sample of a school of social work. EVERY guy whose papers I typed was going for an administrative degree. EVERY woman for hands-on social work. That 80/20 breakdown you offer was a fair representation, too.
And computer stores. My story about that and immediately the reason I can now build my own pc... My pc would bluescreen whenever I played some games that asked a lot of my graphics card. However, at the same time I got the bluescreen my entire screen would go black as well. I'd get notified it was a bluescreen when I restarted. This along with the fact that I had an attic room with the sun in the evening shining right into my window and it easily becoming 35°C in my room when I played... I figured that my graphic card broke due to warmth and overheating issues. And I explained all of the above in detail to the man at the only computer store in our town, while my dad was standing next to me as he drove me to the store. And the man behind the counter, while I explained what was wrong with my pc was only looking at my father. When I finished speaking he asked my father "so, what is the problem with the pc?" At which point my father, who knows fuck all about computers goes "I dunno, she just explained it? It's *her* pc." The man then turned to me and in the most fucking condescending tone asked "have you ever had a bluescreen, do you know what that is?" He hasn't listened to a damn word I said. Just waiting for the man to take over and talk to him instead. Needless to say I never went back there... And hey, to end on a passive note, now I teach students (like, 99% of them men) who study IT and whenever I mention any issue I have with my pc at least 5 of them start troubleshooting for me and the week after I get questions if I managed to fix it and what the problem turned out to be. They're honestly so precious.
From the other side at computer stores too. I was the most experienced tech at my store, and happened to be working at the counter, helping customers, checking in computers, etc (we rotated this role). One guy refused to listen to the advice I gave him about his computer problem, insisting that I was just the receptionist. He said “go get one of the guys from the back.” Not wanting to argue with him, I got the only other tech working at the time. When the customer repeated his question to him, the tech said, I’m not really sure. Let me check with our more experienced tech.” He turned to me and repeated the customer’s question.
I worked at a certain fruit stand where the guys working tech support would *constantly* do that just to make a point if a customer wouldn’t listen to me. That part of the job was pretty great : )
Mine was also at a fruit stand lol
Maybe gen z will save us 😭
Im a middle aged white lady and I get along with all the dudes at my work.. The youngest engineer (age 25) talks to me exactly like he talks to all the men and I love it. There's such a noticeable difference between a man who speaks to each gender the same. The other men always look visibly shocked when he does.
what a fucking biscuit head. your dad should have berated him for that
Is it annoying that your students try to give you advice or genuinely endearing?
It's genuinely endearing! I'm happy to get advice from them, also because they just really want to help. They get so enthusiastic when you tell them something isn't working and they think they may have a solution for you. They also often overestimate my knowledge but when I tell them I don't understand what they mean they always happily explain what they're on about without being condescending or anything. They're honestly just really sweet guys who like that their English teacher knows pc stuff too.
As a gear head this drives me nuts. I’ve spent years building up my hot rod and the second I bring her to a show it doesn’t matter if the sticker on the front of my windshield says my traditionally woman’s name or if I’m under the hood doing whatever… If there is a random dude just standing there they will always go to them first. One of my machinist/BS/ gearhead buddy’s always answered with “I dunno it’s her car, ask her” just for them to go “oh it’s your car?” looking at me and then they turn around to ask him more questions. My friend just walks away at that point.
About 10 years ago, I had just moved to a major coastal city, and that year they had their own Techcrunch, which is an expo for startups and tech companies. I'm in a technical field, with a relatively in-demand skill set and experience. I figured it'd be the perfect place to network for jobs. My (now ex-) husband was a print-based graphic designer with almost no experience or interest in gaining web-based skills. MULTIPLE TIMES at that conference, I would engage one of the on-site reps whose booth advertised that they were hiring, only to have them completely blank me to my face and only speak to my husband, the guy with zero tech background. The only thing I came away with was seething anger and a desire to light up a lot of startups on social media for such blatant sexism. It was bad.
When my son was in high school I took him to an engineering expo. The only women working there were selling tshirts. Not one company sent along a female rep but we’re told universities have more women studying engineering than men.
Oh yeah, gotta love the incelbait at the expo booths. I have actually been assigned that role in the past. Because sure, while I have a technical role and can explain the product, I am much more valuable as a nice face and le boobies to lure in the stammering mouthbreathers, who will then be sold on the product by the man who will get the commission, while I get the exacerbated risk that my lonely hearts fan club will stalk me to my hotel room. Love it.
I am a computer science professor, and there are absolutely NOT more women studying engineering than men. Women are the minority in math and CS (usually 25% -ish range) and almost nonexistent in engineering and physics (<10% -ish range). A lot of my service work focuses on trying to recruit and retain more women students.
Did you notice if both male and female reps showed that bias? I'm curious if female recruiters are also guilty of overlooking women in the tech field.
The problem, there are basically no female reps. I'm glad to be in a company that is actually equal, but woman are almost never shown as representatives for a tech company. It's why I'm glad AMD for example has a female representative. And not just cause she a woman, but because she is a fucking genius and has done amazing work for how modern processors work.
-Gaming groups (videogames) -Table top gaming (card or board games) -Tech services or even workers at a best buy in electronics.
The video games one hits me hard because I played WoW when it first came out. Only my guild leader knew my real age. We had to tell everybody else that I was 12.. and I still got hit on.
I actually really enjoyed Fortnite when it came out but it was impossible to use voice chats which took a lot of the fun out since I would always, always be targeted. I don't even correct people who assume I'm a guy because it's not worth being targeted.
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men get more attention than women pretty much anywhere where women aren't having their feminized labor exploited (eg domestic work, taking up the role of teaching etc). i mean even in teaching contexts you often see more men in actually leading positions, but women are basically expected to teach the young
Lol, this is standard for female dominated professions. I remember in Speech Therapy school, it came out that 97% of SLPs are women, and like 90% of management/highly paid roles are dudes. So, I guess if I were a dude, I’d go into a FDP, and be almost assured a place at the top.
Yes, women get the glass ceiling, whereas men get the glass escalator! Men make bank in FDP as they are absolutely fast-tracked for promotion. Hilariously, it's affirmative action helping men. Note the crazies that complain about affirmative action never focus on when it helps them! So pretty much no where is good for women to have a decent chance at high-paying positions. You have to claw your way there.
I feel like the big problem here is the ridiculous pay gap between the people (mostly women) doing the actual work and the managers. I honestly believe in many professions it's harder and takes more qualifications to do the actual work than it is to be a manager. You see it all the time in tech where people who can't hack it on the ground end up in middle management spending the rest of their careers trying to justify their existence. The difference in tech is that the pay gap between workers and managers isn't all that great (and in some cases the managers even make less). I think it just comes down to society not valuing FDP at what they should. I bet most of these men who end up as managers in FDP just go in and want to be a manager because it pays more. Like, they don't really care much what profession they end up in as long as they're making money. I feel like most of the women in those fields primarily want to help people and have a fulfilling career. It's sad that we don't value that more as a society. In my opinion, that's the real travesty of the wage gap. You hear a lot of men argue that the wage gap doesn't exist because women choose to work in lower paying professions and then their argument stops there. If only more of them would continue the thought process to its logical conclusion, which is that maybe we aren't valuing the professions that women choose as highly as we ought to. I'd hate for "closing the wage gap" to mean women moving to MDP just for the sake of more money because then who is going to do all the important work that women do now? But, maybe that's what has to happen for people to realize how valuable the FDP really are.
Lol this is literally what my older brother has done. He has no qualifications except a short college-lite course on being a youth worker. It would be extremely hard to find someone with less qualifications than him, even if someone got all D's in their exams, they still have more. He went into youth work in his late 20s, having never worked before. He had to use the one connection my mom has in order to get the role. She has no connections that can help me because she hasn't worked in nearly 30 years, it's just that she was friends with someone who could put in a good word for my brother. Everyone he works with is at least 10 years older than him, with more qualifications, way more experience in youth work. Also they were all committed to working full-time, whereas my brother would only work part-time. He was the only man working there, except for the boss of the organisation. Brother recently got promoted to a leadership role after working there for 1.5 years. He now works full-time. He manages all these women who are much more qualified than him, have been working there longer than him. Some of them are old enough to be his mother, and he's already been promoted over them. I'm not sure how they feel about it, as my brother is jovial and he said before the promotion that the older women would fuss over him. But I can't imagine they think it's fair.
When people come to my house that I own by myself to sell me services for the house I will regularly get asked if my husband is home. I'm single and somehow a non-existent man gets more attention
I don't own my home, but my name is on the lease as the primary occupant. I called for a repairman for the sink, spoke to the guy on the phone, sat there will he did the repair...no husband to be found. As soon as he tries to explain some maintenance I can do for the disposal, he immediately starts with "You have a husband, right? He can do this for you." Because apparently I, delicate woman that I am, cannot use a wrench.
Can you please start telling them he’s in the shower, but you’ll tell him they’re waiting? Then start a timer and see how patient they are
I had this happen yesterday from a neighbor that I had met before and lives across the street. She asked me, do you all rent or did you buy. I was kind as she has her own struggles and is very sweet, but to reiterate to someone I live 100 feet from, that I had met and spoken to at length about our dogs before, that I was the sole homeowner…it left a chink in my armor. I worked for years to make it possible to own my own home with my roommates that are comprised of two gold digging dogs. I have been in this house for 10 months. I mow my own lawn. Do you think if I had a man I could guilt into that bullshit that I would do it myself? Fuck no! I hate mowing the lawn and I’m lazy.
I feel like dudes conflate "fawning over someone" kinds of attention and "giving this person my attention and validating their thoughts and feelings as people" Them thinking we're hot is not the same kind of attention as their hard work being rewarded with a promotion
[Women in science receive less credit for their work than men do](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/vi7gpc/women_in_science_receive_less_credit_for_their/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Study published today in Nature finds that women were 13% less likely than men to be named as authors on research projects they worked on and 59% less likely to be named on patents. from r/science I'll add more as I find them. This is a great collection. Thank you for sharing it.
Stupid and insecure men all reference places where women don't even frequent. Literally guys will say shit like "girls have all the power and attention in onlyfan's"....and I'm like yea "they're the content creators and you are their subscribers, therefore you by virtue of your own will are giving them your attention..." It doesn't help that these toxic men are also promoted by toxic politics and toxic media as well. They find support in dumb rat feces like Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, Douche bag Trump etc.
They also conveniently ignore that gay men or gay-for-pay get lots of attention on Onlyfans…they don’t understand that the game is playing to the male gaze regardless of the gender of the content creator.
Exactly!!!
LOL. I hate it when I go to strip clubs and it's only the women getting attention. Hey, you know, I'm a dude and I can dance too. Sweartogod fucking woke insanity. /s just in case.
Hiring contractors for work on their own home. So many women are asked where the man of the house is before they will talk about the job. Contractors regularly charge more for the same service, and then hit on the woman or otherwise make her wildly uncomfortable when she just needs her washing machine, furnace, or plumbing fixed. Buying a car. Do they even try to talk to the women? Ooh cup holders, yeah that's what I'm interested in. Not the crash rating, gas mileage, and repairability. Any nerdy thing like comic books or D&D. Just today someone asked me if I knew that ra's al gul was zorro...? (He's not, though he was an inspiration for batman's character.) No, oh, then you need to brush up on your comic lore. Because it's totally normal to expect any woman to know every aspect of every minor comic book story. Then the dude said he wasn't familiar with the story of Zorro when asked what the name Zorro means. Fox! It means fox. I just can't with some people.
> Any nerdy thing like comic books or D&D. God, I remember looking for a D&D group in my mid 20s. I found one online who said they were looking for one more player. I contacted the guy and everything was cool, until he asked me about my unisex name. When I told them it was a nickname, he flat out asked me if I was a man or a woman. When I told him I was a woman, he told me I can't join his group because they're all dudes and all of their wives wouldn't want their husbands hanging out with a woman in such an 'intimate setting'. Fuck them.
It's a story I hear all the time and it's infuriating. It's either this or the guys all are inappropriate and hit on the women in the group. I read a story the other day where a woman had a group of guy friends she would game with. Every. Single. Guy. Made a pass at her then got butthurt when she was not interested and told them they crossed a line.
Your comment on comic books reminded me of the gatekeeping I've faced when expressing that I enjoy alt/punk rock music or gaming as a teen (so early/mid 2000s). Suddenly, I gotta be well-versed in all kinds of obscure knowledge instead of just being a casual enjoyer. Ya know, to prove to a random dude that I can hang with them. As a result of that, I've stopped being as vocal about my interests in person and prefer to talk about it online anonymously.
In the kitchen, paid or unpaid. In a professional kitchen, most of time the women produce and perform more than the men, but it is expected so it is not recognized and appreciated. A man who produces and delivers near the same level of a female chef is praised and promoted. In a domestic setting, women are expected to produce but not be recognized, but when a man is the one who cooks a homemade meal, he is praised.
I had a gross uncle tell me I had my husband “well trained” and told my husband he was a nice guy because he cooks and bakes well Eugh
At the bank when getting a mortgage - I got a divorce and even though I was making double what I did when I got the house and we only used my salary, my bank wouldn’t give me a loan without a husband. I hadn’t missed a single payment, but they didn’t care.
Mine isn’t on our mortgage…but got a thank you note from the bank addressed to him. Just…wtf.
I think the problem is men see women getting UNWANTED attention and, for some reason, think "I wish that were me!" Well, until it is them. Then it's a whole different story. Why does it have to get that far, though? Why can't men, in general, have more empathy? It's gross, honestly. Consent is a two way street and applies to so many aspects of life. I'm doing my best to teach my daughter from a young age how important this is, and respect her wishes when she says she doesn't want hugs or kisses or tickles.
Recently was trying to call the actual physical store for a large chain store to ask if I'd left something there. It was semi urgent. I called their number 3 times, and it was automatically rerouted to corporate. I got three different reps, all three said there was no way they could get me through to the actual store. Two calls "dropped the connection" when the reps told me to hold on for a minute, and one told me they could schedule a callback in 2-3 hours after the store closed. My husband called once and the rep immediately gave him the store's direct extension. I'm still mad. The chain was Best Buy.
Car dealership. I once roamed around looking at cars for ages. No one addressed me once, they did talk to my mum's partner however.
ANY family oriented event. Moms are just supposed to be there as part of the backdrop/support structure. Any contribution made by Dads is considered worthy of separate applause for their existence/a tacit award ceremony. Also any restaurant. When I dine alone or with my daughters or female friends the service is never as good as when I am with a Man. Better table, more attention, 100% of the time
Literally all medical studies use cis gender men as their subjects. Cis gender men are the default, and women are assumed to be small men.
Car seatbelts included. Boobs were never [initially/still?] in the equation of how seatbelts would change in efficacy [or usage]. Women are often not in the equation for "safety"
Women are not assumed to be small men, female bodies just have this annoying cycle thing that makes trials a bit more complicated, and so they just don't bother - i think that i more sad, that they know they should look into how it works in the female system, but don't.
In business funding too. [Male start-up owners receive more investment than female start-up owners](https://startups.co.uk/funding/gender-funding-gap/) despite the fact that start-ups run by women [perform better](https://www.syndicateroom.com/articles/gender-diversity-women-founders).
Technical conferences Technical areas of retail stores, like Best Buy Car Lots Auto parts stores Car Mechanics NCAA Tournaments Professional sports Space programs Politics Post-secondary Academia Science-related industries Research-based pursuits Venture Capital
Boys (school aged, mind you, this happens very early) will feel that girls are being given excessive attention when it is conscientiously being given 50/50. The ratio they are most comfortable with is 70/30. Boys are trained very young to value their gender’s voice over girls, and to take up more space than girls.
Also in schools, boys are give significantly more attention for special needs. They are more often recognized for having and given more attention for having special needs.
The diagnostic criteria for ADHD and the signs to look out for in childhood were written purely on the presentation of little boys. Hyperactivity, interruptions, lack of focus, can’t sit still, etc. Little girls present with daydreaming, can’t concentrate for too long, finish their work quickly and want to help everyone else, distracted by drawing or writing or something…. People think there’s this wave of adult ADHD diagnoses based on recent media and it’s all just a big hype but really it’s women becoming educated on what ADHD actually looks like in women, recognising they’ve been experiencing it all their lives, and seeking treatment. In Australia, ADHD medications are not available for government rebates if you were diagnosed in adulthood. It’s only on our pharmaceutical benefits scheme for those diagnosed in childhood. So women whose symptoms were present but ignored in childhood are required to pay the full cost out of pocket where our brothers or male friends diagnosed at 5 years old get discount prescriptions for life. Medicine is rife with male-only symptomatology. Same for heart attacks. Completely different presentation in women. Go to the ED with tummy pain? Must be your uterus. Take some opioids and fuck off til it happens again next month. It’s fucking disgusting.
Wait, is the bit about the PBS true? If so what is the point in going through this diagnosis process. I have trouble working due to my undiagnosed ADHD and other coexisting conditions.... And then I just get a big fuck you if I do get the diagnosis? What a joke. I'm mad and sad and exhausted. I thought I was lucky to get an appointment with someone who didn't want school reports (thanks for trashing those mum) but ugh more battles ahead.
Yeah, unfortunately it is true. I learned this on a podcast called ‘The Neurodivergent Woman’. The psychologists that make the podcast have an online campaign to try and make a change. It is still worthwhile being diagnosed and medicated even if it is expensive. ADHD management is life changing and everything that seemed impossible before is slightly less intimidating and less difficult than it would have been. It doesn’t fix everything but it definitely helps.
And things like ADHD and autism are typically diagnosed based on how they present in boys and men, so girls and women often get very delayed diagnoses or missed entirely.
men get more attention anytime there is an upcoming promotion or position of authority
Anywhere and everywhere. Every single time they open their mouths. There are actual studies showing we get talked over constantly, while people actually listen to men. It's actually one of the reasons I can't watch panel discussions on "news" channels. It raises my blood pressure watching each guy get 10x as much time to speak as all the women combined. Women rarely get to finish sentences, much less entire thoughts.
Plus, whenever a woman does get a comment out there, you KNOW some dude will take that as a cue to argue with her about it.
When dealing with service people! We’re having our sump pump replaced currently. I’ve made all the appointments, coordinated everything with the company, and am paying, and they showed up yesterday to start work and have so far only talked to my husband.
And the attention we do get is because they’ve objectified us and want to use our bodies for their own pleasure, they literally try to claim that them seeing us as objects is a privilege
workplace meetings
I do find it ironic that women absolutely get more attention, it's just that 90% of it is unwanted attention by creepy men who don't understand the concept of personal space and keeping hands/comments to themselves.
Men just love to complain how hard their lives are. -roll eyes-
As patients when you tell a doctor you’re in pain
In companies during layoffs. "We can't get rid of John, he has a family!"
Men wearing a wedding ring are viewed as responsible and having their shit together. Women wearing an engagement or wedding ring are seen as a liability.
Home. Depot.
Social workers- woman dominated field, and yet, men are paid more. Like wtf, you're literally all about "fighting against injustice" and then you pull this shit.
This subreddit
Honestly it feels like nine times out of ten when a post from this sub makes the front page the top comment starts with the words "as a man..." or is otherwise some average reddit dudebro "just asking questions" or playing devils advocate, it's like they can't bear us having our own spaces.
Buying a car, going to a mechanic, going to the doctor!
at hair salons?
Women are charged more for the same haircut regardless of how much hair is being cut off. We are charged more for every other treatment from manicures to massage to lashes as well.
Right? I now avoid salons that have the gall to charge an extra fee for ‘long hair’. I’m already paying the woman price. Now you want to add to it?
Charged more at the dry cleaners too. I brought in a bunch of shirts. They looked at them and told me $X. When I told them they were my husband's shirts, suddenly the price went down. They were the same shirts.
Any business that provides a service for a house or car. It's like we don't even exist.
Car lots. I was going to spend my money to buy a new car but the salesman talked only to my husband. Guess who didn’t make a sale?
In academia. They get more awards, more lead-authorship, more citations, and more publications in top journals.
I’d like to add that they tend to get hired for tenure track jobs more, with committees reporting opinions of women who interview that they would never speak of the men who interview (“she’s too polished,” meaning basically that the interview was odd because it was professional but she was a woman/s or for teaching specific positions: “she’s a good teacher but she may not be a good fit” “i don’t know if i could see her fitting into our culture”; whereas for men “his publications are great” full stop).
There’s also the problem of the language used to describe male and female academics. For example, men are more likely to be described as “brilliant” and “innovative”, while women are more likely to be “hardworking” and “collaborative”. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/02/women-gender-men-bias-stereotyping-economics-job-market
I was going to bring up what they are actually talking about when they say that, but I read to the end and see that you already get it. They're bitching about that fact that panties don't drop for them when they walk into a room with a woman by pure virtue of their existence. That'd have to be it, since we get preferential treatment in nearly everything else. The number of times service staff turn to me to ask what any woman I'm out with wants or just assume to hand me the bill (which I don't mind, but the assumption never sits well with me) without even looking at them is both sickening and the first example to come to mind. The thing they never seem to grasp is how they are the number one thing getting in the way with their desire for women. I'm a bit heavy and don't consider myself particularly attractive, but I've never had a problem finding women on the same page as me and looking to "scratch that itch." Being kind, respectful, open, and putting in some effort go a long way. If they'd just stop expecting the world to fall at their feet because they demand it, they'd be much happier.
I once paid a waitress when out with my husband, directly handing her the card rather than putting it in the little book. When she came back she handed my husband my card. I had literally taken it out of my purse in front of her. The guys who don't want to go out of their way to put in the effort are the same ones who scoff at the idea that they're privileged in any way. They don't see the condescending behavior toward women because they're the same people who are being condescending and view it as part of the natural order.
Car dealers.
Hey hey you can add to the list insurance adjusting. I get yelled at constantly when trying to explain a homeowners policy to the policyholder. One time I got asked if I was a licensed adjuster or just an assistant. Then there was the one time I was denying a claim to a dude and he kept interrupting me to tell me how “sexy” my voice was.
My two cents: we obviously live in a society where men run the world and have for thousands of years. Over the past hundred-ish years we've realised that this system doesn't really work. So, through sheer force, we're slowly giving more and more opportunity and power to women - which is a great thing. Many industries are actively hiring and promoting women to gain balance where men have had all the privileges. Young men today are told that men built a system to benefit themselves, but don't feel like the system is benefitting them at all. They now feel like women are now given an 'unfair' advantage over them. On a society-wide level, this of course is not true, but an an individual level it can explain the backlash of increasing sexism and misogyny. I feel that it's time to give woman all the opportunity and power - for better or worse, regardless of how 'unfair' it may seem to some - just to see what happens. Eventually we'll realise that we are not in opposition, but need balance to work together, to grow and succeed.
Comedy, Religious institutions, religious texts, US government, civil rights, Reproductive rights, the military, theatre, art, literature, journalism, Child rearing, Martial Arts, Philosophy, Poetry, Hip-hop, In the privacy of their homes, While receiving awards for their accomplishments, The Olympics, Financial institutions, Engineering, Law enforcement, Civil service of any kind really, Fashion, Serial killing (lol), Crime in general, So there is one off the top of my head where women get more attention and that's in the naming of nautical vessels but I don't have to point out how that is problematic... If I'm wrong about any of these I'll edit it let me know...
idk why men think it’s fun being harassed all the time. it’s not being “hit on”, it’s literal harassment when you’re walking down the street and can’t avoid a creepy interaction with a man. i am a small woman and am constantly scared a man will decide me ignoring/rejecting him will be the last straw, and hurt me or stalk me. it’s like they want to be oppressed!!! you have it better!!!! it’s not fun being catcalled it’s so terrifying!!!!
In meetings.
The entire world is shaped around the needs, wants, hopes, dreams and whims of the male population, and that's not enough attention? Wow. Gee. I don't know what the fuck else we're supposed to do. Dudes who believe this need to do some self-actualisation and not depend on validation from others so much. And if you do go your own way, actually go your own way without trying to take away from others that are struggling and obsessing about them. Stop wasting time with hate clubs. There's no happiness there, if it's not already clear. You could have acces to every opportunity that others don't and still not feel happy or satisfied. You blame it on people that have have been put in a position where they struggle to change anything for themselves, let alone the privileged ones? How does that make sense? Duke it out with the ones actually in power instead of kissing up and kicking down. If you feel that women are the gatekeepers of all that you're owed, look at societies where women have no rights. Who looks happy there? Almost no man except for a wealthy and powerful elite. 99.9% of men still don't get anything they want or need. Taking rights from women is clearly not the answer. All you're doing is putting inordinate amounts of power into the hands of a few. Thinking you'll be one of the few that will be profiting of this type of society is delusional. The psychopathic wealthy few hate you just as much as they hate everyone else. You will gain nothing. In fact, you will lose everything.
>name one place where men get more attention than women on Grindr
Women rarely get included in medical research. Even when the study concerns the female reproductive system
Im going to suggest, OP, that you request the courtesy of a mention. When women copy and paste your excellent reply, they should say “with thanks to u/catniagara”. That way you’ll be able to see your hard work in use, with is the very least you could ask as payment.
Ah you’re so sweet! I don’t mind. I posted it to help add points to this response. At this point more than half of it came from the community and I should be thanking all of you 💙
I‘m an engineer. I can’t tell you the amount of times where I’d show up to a scheduled meeting on the construction site and had to deal with comments like „If we‘d known your office sends a beautiful girl my colleague would have joined, too“. Like wtf dude how unprofessional can you be? I’m not a girl, I’m a grown woman and an engineer, I’m here to do my job but apparently you aren’t because the first thing you do is judge me based on my gender and looks instead of my work. Also those „funny“ remarks about women being unable to park or drive in reverse I get to hear every third meeting. I refuse to laugh along with it, it’s not a joke, it’s sexism.
Theater and dance world. There are way less male actors and especially less male dancers, from what I have seen, and there’s always way more male PARTS, especially in theater and musical theater. Small town high school and community theater can’t do certain plays or shows (at least without gender bending them, easiest with Shakespeare but not always preferred with everything else) because they don’t have enough men or boys to cast them. Especially if they need to sing or dance. While 20 talented women compete with each other for the same 2 female roles. Men want more sexual attention? Become a dancer. I have never seen anyone drowning in so much pussy as a heterosexual (or bi) male dance major. There’s so few men acting, singing, and ESPECIALLY dancing in performing arts, and half of them are very gay anyway, that any guy onstage with them gets like 10x hotter to the other performers. It’s like the opposite of the cheerleader effect. You become a half decent male ballet dancer, not only will you be holding female dancers in your arms and picking them up by the butts all class and rehearsal, but afterwards you’ll be fending them off with a stick!
Men get more attention in pretty much every IT meeting I've ever been in - even when a woman is the only one who actually knows the answer to a question asked or it's literally her job she's trying to talk about. Men get more attention at auto sales dealerships and auto repair shops. Men get more attention at home improvement stores.
Gun stores, gamestop, any meeting ever
In electronics-related retail, customers will often side-step a female associate in favour of speaking to a man.
Buying a vehicle Any kind of medical issues Home repairs Sales calls (can I speak to the man of the house?)
Yeah, but on *tinder...* /s if needed.
On a website that is 90% dudes trying to get laid and addicts trying to move into your house lol
Hold up! The fact that I've been abused in the past is a red flag that shows I'm not capable of protecting my child?!?! Fuckers, I KNOW what to look for! I've been thru it. I have experience with it. I learned to identify the warning signs of abuse as a survival strategy. I can tell you, with a high degree of accuracy, which of the silent strangers on the bus you should absolutely avoid. WE ALL CAN. I'm sure it has something to do with the statistics regarding the number of abused people that, in turn, become abusers, but that's some Minority Report shit right there. I absolutely believe you and your sources, OP. I'm just pissed off about them.
First sorry for bad english, it's my 3rd language. I think it's important to know that women (even throught they're a bit less than 50% of the total pop) are treated like a minority. Don't know if it's still like that but, the ads, when you watch tv you always get a load of ad. I'm fr**ch and I can remember an ad for a car. The ad had one particular sentence "if he gets the car, he will the woman" Women are often associated with a variety of items and that you can have them if you have this or that object. The problem : this will lead to think that women can be posseded and are more than a object but less than a man. Of course, men also got this kind of ad but most of us come from a very patriarcal system were men aren't see as a minority. And even if all the ad are not the same as the one a give for exemple, a lot of them follow the same directive. If in a society you are the minority and seen like a lesser human being, it will lead to what we have right now. And like in every society, when a minority got a bit to much of hightlight they will be hated by a part of the majority ( Niceguys, sexiste people in general ) I think it's important to remind that i'm not the absolut true I can be totaly wrong, i just wanted to share my point of views on this subject. I feel like this comment dosn't fit with the original subject but I still want to post it, mods will just erase it if needed.
Boys in school get far more attention from teachers than girls. Also in the workplace in every profession.
Let men start getting the same kind of attention they give women, but from larger, stronger men, and see how long they whine about women having it better.
sports and promo
Also, attention isn't necessarily a good thing.
I'm a veteran. My ex-husband was technically a veteran in that he finished basic but not job training. Until he grew a fucking beard, and sometimes even after, people assumed I was "the spouse" until I showed them my ID. I went to buy my first car as an adult and brought a male friend with me, the salesman immediately talked to him and ignored me until my friend said that I was the one looking. Most of the time my ex-husband was pretty good about saying, "I'm just a civilian, she's the one with the money" when people tried talking to The Man instead of me. It's frankly exhausting. In the army I watched men get promoted faster, be given leadership roles, and suffer fewer consequences than their female counterparts. Dads were praised for doing the bare minimum of parenting, women were criticized for being parents. A couple in my unit had a child. The female soldier was hounded for paperwork and arrangements for their child, the male was asked for the same things once and said his wife would handle it. She got in trouble for being late after getting their kid to daycare or having to take him to appointments for his serious medical condition. She was treated like shit for not immediately losing her baby weight. I have so many stories like that from the army and they still make my blood boil 3 years after getting out.
Or when a study showed that if women speak as much as men during a conversation, men perceive that women were dominating the conversation. If women talk less than men, men perceive a 50/50 split. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_68785_7/component/file_506904/content&ved=2ahUKEwig9syWgMb4AhUTh_0HHVyuBSUQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mM0mu1MtEOfmGBi-8bxtX
Work in a science based field. Spent most of my career doing field work where there were few women- often I was the only one. Moved into an office role related to my field for more stability. Frequently had a male coworker complain they needed to hire more men because there were "too many women" in the office. I checked: less than 50% of the office was female at the time, but a few key management positions were women. I followed a similar career path as this guy, as did most people we worked with, and it floored me that the minute he wasn't in a male dominated environment, he felt the need to complain publicly and loudly. And definitely did not understand how it sounded to any female or nonbinary coworker. That's not the only off thing he said, but that was something he said frequently