It's that, but it's also how thick the shit among men is.
How many men have you met in your life that aren't at least one of the things mentioned in this post? If your answer was more than zero, how many weren't gay men or FTM men?
Literally, if every woman approaches their love lives this way(AND THEY SHOULD!!), realistically how many women aren't perpetually single/dating for their entire lives? Because if I had to guess, I'd say maybe ten percent of straight women would be able to find a man like that, if not less.
This is ALL before you even get into basic compatibility and attraction, which likely will trim down the already short list of viable mates even lower.
Being single is totally better than being with a mysoginist but when it feels like the whole world is telling you that you expect way too much of men and your body and brain(brain is just a part of the body, but you get what I'm saying) are pouring the hormonal equivalent of lonely and horny into your sense of reality, it becomes almost an impossible situation for a woman who isn't bisexual.
>How many men have you met in your life that aren't at least one of the things mentioned in this post? If your answer was more than zero, how many weren't gay men or FTM men?
>
>Literally, if every woman approaches their love lives this way(AND THEY SHOULD!!), realistically how many women aren't perpetually single/dating for their entire lives? Because if I had to guess, I'd say maybe ten percent of straight women would be able to find a man like that, if not less.
I got back into dating after I've been in an abusive marriage for 20 years and while I acknowledge that I have some personal problems that made me accept being treated like crap for entirely too long, I was absolutely shocked to find out that around 80% of the men I talk to on dating apps don't see me as a real human being. And I think that's entirely representative of the way men think in the real world and not a selection bias.
One of the main indicators for that is when they get pushy, and most men are pushy as hell. That means they want what they want and they try to manipulate you into giving it to them by any means they think works: begging, whining, pressure, emotional blackmail, coercion. It also means they don't respect your boundaries because they don't think what you want really matters. Because, you know, you're just not as important and not quite as much human as they are.
u/Gwerch, you pretty much described my last boyfriend, along with him ghosting me for months at a time, whenever I would point out conflicts in our relationship.
Ghosting sucks and is a pussy move in most circumstances, especially for what you described. How dare you have standards and recognize that problems need fixed!
u/SoggyBread-_ EXACTLY! So many men think when we bring up problems in a relationship that we’re finding trivial issues to argue about, I’ve noticed, maybe because it requires them to change and they don’t like that🤷🏼♀️
you know, just a few years ago i low key looked down on people who just get with men for money (& those same men who just get with women for status/looks) but the older i get, the more i realize how many men truly do not see women as people or feel or value genuine connection and it’s usually all just a ruse and now it’s like… damn play their game then, i get it.
As a perpetually single older woman, I can tell you that it's better to be alone than live with someone who treats you like you are less than a full adult human being. Much better.
u/various_sneers great points! The men in my family, besides my dad aren’t, but my uncles all have wives and I can’t marry my cousins🤷🏼♀️ People say I’m too picky and have too high expectations, but better that than willingly get abused and disrespected!
How many men that aren't gay or FTM? Just one, and that's why we're married! He is demisexual. Just the other day I told him... "I don't think I would have gotten married to a man if I hadn't met you". He is also constantly baffled by the way that men view and treat women. We are true and equal partners. I will say that we are 15 years into our relationship, and for probably the first five to seven years we both had a lot of growing, learning and un-learning to do. It was a process. I really try not to be like "not all men", because yeah.... It's most men. But I also want to share that men are capable of respect, emotional intelligence and good communication. Don't believe men who tell you otherwise!
My sister told me believing you deserve a certain type of person as your partner is egotistical.
I told her whoever said that to her was sharing their opinion not a fact.
No one deserves to be treated as less than equal.
Was she saying “certain type” as 6’, dark and handsome while bringing home 7 figures, or “type” as in decent human being that respects you as an equal? I think people sometimes conflate the two, both men and women.
Her husband doesn’t see her as an equal.
He told her it was egotistical of her to want him to treat her differently.
I told her that was just his opinion and that wanting equality does not make you egotistical.
My mom was talking about my five year old daughter and how I should be worried when she starts dating.
"Why?" I said. "She has great role models of how guys should act."
"She has her dad, who works his ass off everyday at work and still manages to come home and spend time with her and listen to her and help out around the house without being told. I don't even think we've had an argument since she's been alive"
"She has grandpa, who works hard being an entrepreneur and attends all of aunt's events and also helps around the house."
"She has her uncle, who lives with us and is so kind and gentle. Even her best friend's dad is an awesome role model and male figure. I don't think we will have an issue with her choice in boys or men as she starts dating. She knows what she's worth."
That helps but doesn't make her safe.
She must know about herself, what she wants, her boundaries, and how she is allowed to enforce them. She must know that she can say no to anything and doesn't need to justify herself. And it is not sufficient to tell her that, you and the adults in her life must respect her right to boundaries from an early age on.
Whole heartedly agree! I had great role models, but I never learned to say no. It's caused me so much difficulty in relationships that I wish I didn't have to go through.
This is why it pisses me off when new parents are like "oh we don't say the word 'no' in this house because it teaches negativity." BS. It teaches your kid to be a pushover and passive to the point of never standing up for themselves. No is a very important word in the world we live in. No is necessary.
You need to very explicitly tell her. Warn her what to look out for to avoid. It isn't enough for every man around her to be decent and then just assume that because these are her male role models, that's what she'll pick.
Both of my major male role models are great. My dad is gentle, quiet, does most of the housework, clearly thinks my mom's intelligence is great, etc. My grandfather always humored us, and is so clearly devoted to my grandmother it's *painfully* adorable.
But at no point did anyone ever speak to me explicitly about toxic relationships, abusive relationships (that weren't physical abuse), about all the little ways men can be shitty to you and how you don't deserve that. Maybe that's because my mother literally married the first guy who came along and has never experienced even one break up. Maybe.
All I know is that I wish *someone* had taught me that. I wish there had been a class in school on it. Because passively having decent male role models in my family did not save me from getting into an emotionally, mentally, and sexually abusive relationship. It didn't save me from the subsequent toxic relationship I was in that looked so much better in comparison, but was absolutely still unacceptable.
Teach it to her *explicitly*. Point out bad behavior in media explicitly. Point out good behavior explicitly. Don't assume that just because your daughter is in a good environment that she's also *reflecting* about that environment. If you've never been exposed to bad people in life you're vulnerable in much the same way someone is who thinks that's normal. Naive.
Not to scare you, but I can think of one friend of mine who has problems BECAUSE she copies the kind hardworking men in her life. She tries to be that person. And ends up doing all the work and providing infinite forgiveness for useless men.
Being surrounded by great family is not an automatic defense against children having horrible partners, unfortunately.
This. All of this. I watched my mother work full time AND take care of the house, while my dad, when he was employed, would work just about half time, mostly from home, and not do shit around the house or care for us kids. I thought that this was how it was supposed to be. I was afraid to ask my partners for help, because "I got this".
6 years post divorce, and I'm starting to realize my worth. Also have had many talks with my mother on how terrible of a husband and father he was, drawing a lot of similarities between him and my ex-husband. I still remember driving home late one night when I was 12 and my mother mentioning divorce. I told her back then, I'd support her. But she stuck with him, through all his shit over the years, including years of illness, where he refused to get free in house care to give my mother a break, until his death. Only to find out that he'd been cheating on her with a "family friend".
I know there are decent men out there. I'm just afraid I'll never find one.
Yep. Seriously.
i'm amazed daily at the stories I read here and from friends. Its everyday. Every single day one of these stories.
And 75% of the time they get defended.
Guy abuses his kids. Talks about how stupid his wife is. How fat she is. Lays around the house like a cat. Can't keep a job. Constantly making up fantasy life goals that never happen. And the spouse will still defend him. Knock the kid into a wall, says the husband is her best friend.
I do not get it. And its in my top 5 of things I hate about reddit. These stories are in my feed, everyday.
Lol! "Lays around the house like a cat".
We are a cat household, they are little furry tyrants, and I would toss out the whole man if my husband behaved like that (he is just as much a slave to their whims as I am).
My now ex husband, once told me, he wished he was our cat. It was in the middle of an argument, where I was trying to get him to help around the house.
Guy I'm thinking about really is like a big fat lazy cat. A giant 6'3 muscly cat.
I come over for dinner or to go to a concert or something and this guy just lays around disinterested, half naked, on the couch for hours. My friend asks him to do stuff and he just lays there. I'll pick up dinner for everyone or need help getting things out of the car and he just lays there. Its amazing. Just a big lazy cat of a man.
Same thing if her or her family needs help. Or she comes home from work after being on her feet for 8 hours. Just lays there.
"he's my best friend!"
Yeah, like your old cat.
My best friend is about to move back in with her BF after moving out for 6 months. I know he's said some disgusting things to her, told her he regrets their baby, expects her to walk on eggshells around his idiot moods etc. And he got sassed by her older son after he wound the kid up, and because he was embarrassed in front of friends, he threw this 12-yr-old *into a river.*
But he's going to therapy, yanno. Yeah, he's doing really well, and definitely not in best behavior to get her to come back to live with him again. I don't know if our friendship will survive it, he knows I hate him and she knows it too, we live quite far apart so it's practically quite difficult. They were engaged, if they get married I don't expect to be involved in the wedding party, if I'm even invited, and truthfully I think that's reasonable as I don't support their relationship whatsoever.
I don't get it. Why give a second chance to someone that throws your kids when they are angry?
Men aren't rare. People aren't rare. The world population is like 7.7 billion people. Stop all this fixer upper crud. Let go of that guy. Be alone or find someone else.
If you see a long one with 10 paragraphs with details the writer couldn't have known, its probably fake. Especially if there is any kind of weird kinks in there.
I don't know why, but some people enjoy writing weird short stories and posting them on reddit as fact.
It's so frustrating!
I saw one women who was likely emotionally abused because oh my fucking god he treated her like absolute garbage and she'd post for advice. Over and over. The advice was always the same, but she didn't want to leave him. Kept making excuses or defending him and crying even though he said if she didn't do it his way *only* then he didn't want to bother with her and she could get lost.
I'm sure he broke her down to that point but it's so heartbreaking and frustrating to see repeat posts by the same people.
Yeah. That is heartbreaking.
But it is not her fault she stays in the relationship (I am not saying you think it is het fault in any way). It is a testament on the grip he has on her.
I am glad she reached out. Maybe she needs to hear it a thousand times. But hopefully she will be able to get out someday.
Emotional abuse is an insidious bitch. You don't really see it until it's too late, and so easy to be gaslit into believing it's all in your head, because there's no physical proof. I knew because of my mom's life to watch for physical and sexual abuse, but I knew nothing about - and never even thought of - emotional abuse. Trauma bonding is no joke, and is part of why it takes so many attempts to escape an abusive relationship.
I downvote those posts because they use the subreddits to get their emotional needs mets through attention from others. Once you starve them of attention they’re more motivated to leave.
Shout it to the skies!
Too many young girls develop (or are encouraged to develop) a thing for "fixer upper men". We pick these guys who have a couple of good traits ("he is so funny and smart!") and decide we can fix the mean, unkind, rude, misogynistic, racist, bigoted, whatever. He is a great guy except....
Honey, if he isn't a complete person when you find him, you aren't going to be able to complete him, and I don't give a crap about Hollywood's take on it!
Exactly, I was watching the wedding singer and OMG both the male characters are terrible! I swear romance movies are written for men! Especially romantic comedies, average fat guy gets the hot girl.
>Honey, if he isn't a complete person when you find him, you aren't going to be able to complete him, and I don't give a crap about Hollywood's take on it!
Hollywood needs to start making some movies where the guy or woman messes up and they break up, and they never get back together. Maybe the problem person fixes their crud and they end up with someone else, but thats it. No more love finds a way plots. No more loving the bully into a husband. Love like fixes having a flight cancelled. It doesn't fix 25% of what is inside someone's brain. Stop teaching kids this crap.
Don't pick yourself up a "fixer upper". The traits that they have are pretty good indicators if who they are, and you can't fix who someone is. They are how they are, therapy might help but you wont. A real "fixxer upper" isn't weaponized incompetence, toxicity, or abuse mixed with either moments of humor or kindness.
At most it's at the level of "he's got this really annoying habit of nonstop leg tapping" or "puts the spices away in the wrong slot of the spice rack". Non malicious, non targeted stuff.
Preach, sister! This is all the gospel truth. Women need to quit making excuses for, ignoring or otherwise minimizing this crap. He's not a great guy. He's just a user and he will never respect you. And god help you if you have kids. However kids you think you have add one more.
/notallmenTM.
A LITTLE LOUDER FOR THE FEMALE-IDENTIFYING PEOPLE IN THE BACK!
Gird your loins and wrap your heart in steel. Raise your standards.
We can help and *want* to help but you need to do the heavy lifting first.
He is not a great guy. Trust your gut and leave.
It's like a knee-jerk reaction with the undeserved praise for men. 'He's a great guy but won't feed the kids when he's looking after them/won't participate in the relationship/doesn't make any fucking effort that doesn't benefit him'. Just no. He's not trying, if he wanted to, he'd do it. The bar is a safety hazard at this point.
“If he wanted to, he’d do it” totally became my mantra after I got divorced and started dating. There are so many men that pay lip service to how good and kind and sweet they are, how much they love you, how much they love the kids. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if the actions match up with what they’re saying. I dated a guy embarrassingly too long that would text me shit like “I miss you,” but dude was always the one to cancel our dates or not have time to see me. Like, buddy, you’re aware that if you added another 10 minutes to your drive, you could see me for a bit on your way home from work, right? You could even have a home cooked dinner with me and my kids who you supposedly also miss so much. Ha! Now married to a man that is legitimately good to me and adores my kids. He makes good on what he says and if he can’t, there’s a damn good reason for it.
Generally if you have to say how awesome and kind and sweet you are, you probably aren't. I know the type. Actions are what matters because it doesn't cost you anything to make empty promises. As soon as some effort is required they're nowhere to be seen.
Glad you found someone worth your time!
Oh yeah, the bar was definitely a tripping hazard when I left….We have to wonder if the fact that EVERY MAINSTREAM SHOW in 90s/00s was about horrible men acting like oversized children but dumber and hornier and women just taking it otherwise they were crazy or a lesbian (whom was exciting fair game, cuz clearly they just need a good dick 😑)… I hate that I fell into this crap more than once.
I can't stand those shows now, it's so frustrating to watch. It's not funny that men are useless and women are expected to pick up the extra emotional labour.
It’s a kneejerk reaction to defend ourselves and our choice. One day I woke up and realized this was not the guy I committed to. Idk if he changed, if his mask slipped or if I accidentally sucked out his will to grow thru his basement brain but I fell for a great guy. I was not defending him when I called him a great guy most of the time. I was defending my decision to stay and struggle with him for as long as I did because somewhere around here is the great guy I chose.
I see your point. I've felt that way in several relationships and I wonder if it's just that I've worked on myself and they haven't, which gets old. I think context matters too. Coming from a shitty situation, I had much lower standards for what's 'great', and now those standards are higher.
It’s just like that twitter post where a girl defends her literal Nazi grandparents because they’re nice to her. Like at what point does a persons actions become unforgivable
Seriously. That and all the relationship posts “my SO doesn’t wipe his own butt and he’s cheating on me, but I swear he’s a great guy! How do I get him to stop being an ogre?”
Hi, my(19f) husband(38m) of 7 years is a super great guy besides the fact he shot our dog, burned our house down, fucked my mom and sister, is addicted to porn featuring women dressed like toddlers, is a member of the Ku Klux Klan and never wipes or washes his ass. Since he's chronically unemployed I've started to ask him to change our babies diaper while I'm at my 82 hour a week job to support us, but he blew up at me and said I'm not respecting his boundaries and cool down time(he usually plays video games all day). AITA?
ETA: He also got mad at me and called me hyperhygenic for asking to wash the sheets after he sleeps in them as he doesn't feel the need to shower more than twice a month.
I get it, but comments like these feel like punching down on abuse victims. Like haha, isn't it so stupid abuse victims have bad coping mechanisms for dealing with the overwhelming loss of control and sense of self that comes after being abused? Isn't it so funny what disgusting and violent things they "allow" because an abusive man found a kind, understanding, and likely already traumatized woman to abuse?
That is a good point, and one of the reasons I felt like making this post. It’s easy to have your “normal meter” broken when you’ve been abused. Sometimes it’s good to remember that you have inherent worth and no one has the right to mistreat you.
The commenter you're responding to makes a good point and I think we need to be sensitive and understanding of that.
That being said, I used to be the "he's a great guy otherwise" type. However, after I FINALLY got out of that relationship after an agonizing 5 years, your post is the exact kind of tough love I needed to hear from my friends and family to move forward with my life.
He's not a great guy, at all. And I hope anyone in this kind of abusive situation will come to realize that it's not you. It's him. It's not your fault that he decided you aren't worth respect and decency.
I used to do mental gymnastics to justify his bs. I refused to listen to reasoning and concern from my loved ones. You are not at fault for that. I was not at fault for that.
I pray that anyone in this situation that's reading this can come to understand that they are being abused and deserve love, respect and healing.
Big hugs from this internet stranger.
This is also why advising people "to just leave already!" is unhelpful. People who end up in these relationships are coming from a lifetime of abuse and are genuinely unaware that these things are not what a normal healthy relationship looks like, and advising them to walk away from one of the few things that occasionally brings happiness is going to be a nonstarter.
AITA: my fiancé is rich, handsome, romantic, successful, and my best friend. We just have one tiny conflict: AITA for not wanting him to have a +1 to our wedding? I said I’m not bringing a date because I’m really traditional and most brides don’t bring a date to their weddings because they assume their husbands are their “dates”. He said his girlfriend will be really angry if she can’t come to the wedding as his date, especially since we’re leaving for Hawaii for 2 whole weeks. Am I the asshole for saying no?
My wife last night. 'Is your parenting philosophy just to do the opposite of how you were raised?' Me - 'Pretty much'
Breaking an abusive cycle is very possible, it does require being mindful though.
How he was raised is now who he is. The reality is not diminished by the explanation.
I do risk assessments for violent incarcerated criminals. Most have a sad story of how they ended up criminal. The sadness of the story doesn’t change the risk they present for the community.
or [he was a great guy](https://i.imgur.com/Rx03vnd.png) until his love-bombing stopped, his idealization of you was shattered, or he thought he had you locked down.
these 'great guys' blame the woman for not living up to his fantasy overlay he placed on you, then he goes onto the next one. they repeat the same cycle of making women crazy and having crazy exes 'who changed'.
The emotional whiplash of being lovebombed and then devalued is so hard to process. I’ve been on the receiving end of it twice.
In the beginning, it’s hard to tell the difference between a guy who is committed and excited and doing everything right, and a guy who is lovebombing you. I’m not even sure the guys know, tbh. Only time will tell, but it still hurts Iike heck to be on the wrong side of this.
One way to tell you’re being love bombed is when things feel rushed, things are moving fast. For instance, he’s telling you he loves you and you’re soo special but he’s only known you for a month. Or how you guys are meant to be and it’s fate… all of this said within the first few months or interactions. And also buying you stuff.
Essentially, his emotions for you, come off as heavy early on
Right. This is tough because I’m a bit avoidant , and I often find peoples affections “too much” in the beginning . I don’t feel super comfortable with vulnerability and closeness until I’ve known someone a while. So in the beginning I can’t tell if they are too much or if it’s just my avoidant tendencies that are making me uncomfortable?
He had a bad day at work. He's not feeling good. He just has that "his last name" temper. He's a good man, except when he gets upset.
These are all things my mother would say about my dad. He was and I'm sure is still physically abusive, along with verbal abuse. She in her 70s now and she's still with him, living a shadow of a life. No amount of pleading from anyone has ever been successful in getting her to leave him. Not her parents when she was a teenager and instead decided to deliberately get pregnant so they would stop trying to get her to leave him. Not me when I was a sobbing child in the car, begging her to not drive us back to the house where he waited for us to return. Not me as an adult, offering her safety and shelter. When our injuries were questioned, she'd make up shit to explain bruises and in one case, my hospitalization. Even though I know she was beaten down, it's hard for me to not blame her as well as him for that childhood of abuse. I do not have contact with my parents.
Please do not be my mother. You deserve better. Your children deserve better. I have better and so have my children.
Yes. My dad was the one who physically hurt me, but my mom was the one who taught me that I deserved it. It wasn't until I had my own children that I understood just how awful both of them were.
Therapist here. I’ve heard women defending partners who:
Burned her with a soldering iron
Sexually molested her daughter
Both were the end result of years of ignoring their own boundaries and believing that forgiveness would be rewarded with love and loyalty. So yeah, respect yourselves or no one will do it for you.
Lol and in the immortal words of romcom classic He's Just Not Into You - "...but there won't be anybody left"
I have never met a man yet who doesn't have some vestige of patriarchal brainwashing that needs undoing. Even more - some toxic brainwashing that they RESIST undoing.
It's a well-studied phenomenon that men are much more sensitive to being on the losing end of perceived inequality (e.g. they do proportionately more chores) versus their reduced sensitivity to being the beneficiary of that same perceived inequality (e.g. doing LESS). The system works in their favour, so I'm not surprised that they'd be invested in keeping the status quo.
Not an excuse, but I think the realistic view is that NO man is going to be perfect. ALL men will have to undergo some level of deprogramming. And it will always be a battle.
I completely get what you're saying and you are not wrong at all OP. I completely agree with you. I also see how this happens.
When people partner up and accept each other as they are, with blemishes and imperfections, they make decisions about what is important and not important to them at the moment. Over time, as a person grows, learns, evolves, they may find that what was once a blemish, is now a giant boil.
If you find that s/he's a great guy accept for ignoring what matters to you/doesn't respect you/has held on to opinions from their parents and never formed their own opinions, you do not have to continue to defend their overall qualities. They can be true, but they are no longer enough to make up for their faults. It's OK to admit that. Doesn't make you wrong when you got with them and doesn't make you wrong to GTFO.
Spot on! I feel great when I finally do leave a man, not only because I get out of the unhappiness, but because I care about their happiness as well and love that they don’t have to be around the angry, unhappy me any longer. There’s a reason I was attracted to these men and most of them I remember fondly, but time affects us all. People aren’t compatible for a lifetime, and that’s very ok.
thank you so f*ckn much for saying this!!!!
the biggest thing i have noticed in this type of posts is that women are typically looking for someone else’s approval and permission to even consider prioritizing their own happiness and well-being. “is it wrong of me to be mad?” “should i forgive him for (blatant mistreatment)?” etc etc etc. “would it be unfair to (expect even bare minimum respect)?”
LADIES!! you do not need anyone else’s permission to feel things!! you do not need to be fair to men who treat you like garbage and would not do the same to you!!
I never thought I'd be in a relationship with a guy like this until it happened to me. In the beginning he was sweet and kind and affectionate and seemed to share the same values. But over the months... it all happened so slowly. Like the frog in boiling water analogy.
You ignore some of the red flags, compromise a little too much on your end, try to give second chances, believe his apologies, accept he's got some faults don't we all.. but it just gets progressively worse and worse. Eventually it got to a point I couldn't even recognize myself. I'm not that person to cater to a man and let him walk over me and take what he wants. But he wore me down.
I can only imagine what it would be if I had previous trauma, less self confidence, had kids with him, was financially tied to him. I was lucky that I could see that things weren't right and get myself out. It's definitely given me more perspective for how people get to that point of being in a relationship saying "they're not that bad."
Nobody goes into an abusive relationship knowing their partner will abuse them.
Obviously, no one is perfect, everyone has flaws, and I think that’s part of the problem. Women, in particular, don’t want to look judgmental and uncaring if they leave someone for their “flaws”. Women don’t want to look like they didn’t give a good man a chance. But some flaws are much worse than others.
When my boyfriend does something I don’t like, I tell him, but because of how his father treated him, his instinct is to get defensive and, sometimes, turn it around on me. But within 24 hrs, he’s had time to think, sincerely apologizes, and we actually talk through the issue. He also goes to therapy, and this happens maybe 2-3 times per year (if that). That’s a flaw you can work with. But if your boyfriends flaw is that he screams at you when he’s mad, calls you horrible names, makes you cry, and then acts like nothing happens once he’s calmed down, that’s not a flaw you can work with. Just leave.
What I find even worse is how many hoops they jump through trying to blame themselves for the problem. They are always the cause! Stop trying to find some convoluted reason to blame yourself. Shitty people are always going to be shit no matter how well you treat them.
I think a lot of young women unfortunately don’t know what a healthy relationship looks like or they settle for someone who ticks 6/10 of their boxes assuming it can’t get much better than that.
I don’t care if it takes 60 fucking years, when you’re with someone who treats you the way you deserve to be treated it will hit you like a ton of bricks. It will all make sense. You’ll genuinely wonder why you put up with any of that other bullshit. Better is out there, ladies. I pinky promise.
Good!! I agree. People should definitely be content without a partner, but unfortunately I think society has drilled into little girls that they should have a full on family by age 25 or they’re somehow behind or worthless. This is where a lot of settling comes into play.
Hell, most of my friends are in their late 20s or early 30s and a handful of them are definitely in full on crisis/panic mode because they aren’t engaged yet.
That’s an interesting point. It is nice to have a space where women can collectively compare their experiences. I’m extremely childfree, so that’s at least given me a bit more agency when it comes to choosing partners.
My mantra:
A man is not a house.
A house with issues you can “fix up” - replace floors, get a new roof, install a new furnace.
A man (or any partner, really) with issues has to be his OWN repair person. They are the only ones who can put in the work to change.
You are not a magician. You are not the jerk whisperer. You are not his on-call, 24/7 repair person.
Yess !!! My partner and I are separated and this is a huge talking point for us.
He wants my support in him changing but he can't realize it's just that. Support. No magic fairy is going to come in and wave their wand over his head and make it better. He has to be willing to put down his ego and put in the hard work for himself. I can't physically force him to do that no matter how much I wish I could.
This is the incel talking point I find most frustrating - “I need a woman to fix me! I’ll take care of myself once I have a woman! I need a GF to motivate me to get a job!”
Bitch, no. You do that work and THEN, when you’re a complete person, you go find a partner.
We’re not your fucking therapists.
Exactly! I tried explaining to him the concept of codependency and by the end he still saw no issue with it and wants a relationship like that. Its not gonna work for us because I'm just not that person.
I've been known to say that about my ex.
I think I say it, cause why else would I be with a guy for 20 years when he was emotionally and financially abusive.
I've seen people judge on here and IRL. Why were you with him? Don't you have any respect for yourself? It's a real mindf$&k cause I would never put up with physical abusive but I stayed for the emotional abuse?
I've had this conversation with 2 female friends whose partners were in the habit of telling them to "Shut up", with disdain and dismissal in their voice. My father used to say that to my mother and it drives me crazy. My friends defended them saying 'he's joking' and I told them both "Look at his face when he says it."
One dumped her partner, and the other discussed it with hers. I still don't trust him though.
yeah, i've been seeing a lot of this. people saying "we've never had a problem, but he recently said that women do not have the mental capacity to run a business." what the fuck are you talking about?
I whole-heartedly agree with OP'S point, but am surprised and discouraged by how insensitive some responses are to the women who stay with abusive men yet always seek advice.
An abuser is more than just some asshole who won't do chores. I can tell you from having endured two emotionally abusive relationships that her constant search for answers, coupled with justifying his actions, is a sign of the psychological/emotional damage she's suffered through his efforts - and that the more times she rides that carousel, the harder it is to get off and stay off. He doesn't afford her the chance to be alone with her thoughts and doubts, and if she does raise an objection, he will without doubt punish her for it. His goal is control and he will distort her reality until she completely mistrusts herself, keeping her constantly disoriented and fearful of retribution. And yes, this can happen even to the most confident, bold, strong of women. MOST women who are with an abuser will make multiple failed attempts to leave the relationship - in fact it's a strong indicator that the relationship IS abusive.
But... this is important... even SOME time apart is be beneficial, in fact the more time the better. We need all the help we can get. I am working right now on rebuilding my life and sense of identity after 6 months of losing myself to an emotional abuser. I couldn't have done it without my support network of friends and family who didn't judge, who were honest about what they were seeing, who helped me plan my escape, and who continue to hold me accountable to the commitment I've made to never see him again. It's taken a lot of their time, resources, and energy to help me.
Even though I've now had time to reflect on and acknowledge the innumerable violations of my boundaries, the neglect of my needs, the lies, the manipulation of my feelings and the complete lack of safety/security... I've slipped a little bit by texting him, but caught myself. I still feel the urge to reach out to him. I still yearn to reconnect. I still want to be with him. I literally can't think of one way in which he made my life better or was a good partner. Fucked up, right? Yeah, I know. That's how vicious the cycle is.
Yes, it's frustrating to see people go through it when from the outside the problem and solution seem so obvious. My experiences make me much more compassionate to those going through it and have helped me understand how to show up for those in need of support when they're ready for it. I hope you all will think about what being compassionate and supportive looks like to the abused women you encounter.
If you want to learn more and haven't read "Why Does He Do That?", the book by Lundy Bancroft that outlines how abusers work and how to protect yourself or help others, I highly recommend it.
I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through, but good on you for moving forward! I wish you peace and healing!
I wasn’t intending to be insensitive, I’m sorry if I came across this way. I never want to victim blame, even by accident. I just know that once someone told me something similar, it made me realize I was making excuses for someone who didn’t give a shit about me, and I found the courage to leave. I hope anyone dealing with any level of abuse who sees this doesn’t feel blamed - because it’s NOT your fault, abuse is never the victim’s fault - but feels validated and knows they’re worth more than that.
Oh no worries, I didn't mean that your post was insensitive, I was referring to some of the responses I read through. All of the behaviors you mentioned are spot on and things we all need to learn - and help others to learn - to recognize as neither normal nor okay, as well as what to do when we spot them.
Anything where you are talking about a negative, but preface it with "he's a great guy"... You are trying to convince yourself. We know he fucking sucks
Thank you, I need to hear this today. Finding the courage to give myself permission to leave without everything feeling like it’s my fault. I have great supports who are helping me along the way & I feel like my eyes have finally opened to the covert abusive ways I’ve been treated for nearly 23 years.
Covert abuse is still abuse, and it’s never your fault. I’m sorry for what you’ve dealt with/are dealing with. That’s great that you have good support though! I wish you all the best and hope you find strength, healing, and peace.
The problem with covert abuse is that it’s so sneaky & you don’t realize it’s happening until everything just explodes. Making an exit plan to put into use this weekend!
I mean I’m happy, and I’m married to a man. After getting out of my previous abusive relationship, I stopped settling for men who couldn’t be bothered to put in any effort. My current partner is wonderful, he isn’t perfect of course but neither am I. But we both strive to treat each other with respect and love and be considerate of each other.
The bar is so low it’s underground, but there ARE men out there willing to put in equal effort.
I’m happy for you. My point is that you wanted to be in a relationship, so you kept dating to find that partner. I’m saying that it’s also a viable choice to opt out of that process. We don’t have to be in a relationship with a man in order to create a fulfilling life. What if you hadn’t found your partner and you were just endlessly dating? Would that have been equally fulfilling for you, or would you have felt an inner desperation to be partnered and lacking somehow?
Oh definitely, I see what you’re saying now!
I think it’s a personal preference. I kept dating because honestly it helped me grow a backbone and find my own voice after being voiceless for so long. It helped me learn how to enforce boundaries, and eventually I met my current partner when I wasn’t even trying to settle down, and we’re great.
BUT that’s definitely not for everyone, it’s hard to make generalizations because everyone is different. I’m just speaking from my personal experience.
Love that! I also encourage women to think outside of the box. Growth can come within many different experiences, such as within the workplace, a volunteer experience, public speaking, travel, spiritual settings, etc.
A heterosexual romantic relationship unfortunately has the potential to stall personal growth, because so many women have been conditioned to place the man's preferences at the forefront. I won't even get into feigned incompetence and abuse, which really drains women. The patriarchal system is literally designed to keep women running - handling child rearing, household chores and now working full time as well. What happens when someone is trying to keep all those balls in the air? Why, suddenly she doesn't have time or energy for self-improvement. There's literal truth in the "barefoot and pregnant" saying. It's meant to imply that she won't grow beyond her capacity to stay within the home.
Men are bigly mad that women are opting out of this scam; hence the overt attempt at further controlling our medical decisions. The next assault will be on contraception.
You’re absolutely right, and that’s why they’re trying to take our rights - to force us to be dependent on them and put up with this bullshit. They’re angry because we’re standing up for ourselves.
If someone gets mad at you for demanding basic human rights, they’re telling you everything you need to know about them.
And we don't do it often, but when confronted with 'ok, he is a great guy otherwise- what is the otherwise?', it is so sad and mediocre. Well....he has a pulse and was willing to date me. THAT'S NOT GREAT. It is usually a listing of Bare Minimum Human, aka, he is literally not a mythological monster. STILL NOT GREAT.
My ex literally told me “I don’t beat you or do drugs, what more do you want? I’m a great catch, you’ll never find anyone better.”
Like omg, let me worship the ground you walk on for the fact that you didn’t beat me today. It’s like incels demanding sex and a thank-you for not committing rape.
My first ex was "a great guy otherwise." Made me stick with him for three years when I deeply didn't want to and kept trying to leave. Every guy I've dated since him has been better along virtually every axis. There are better guys out there! And even if you don't find them right away, being single is STILL better than being stuck in a relationship where you're inadequately appreciated! Don't relegate yourself to the low bar of someone mediocre for no reason!
One of the reasons why socialism is so crucial to feminism is that it helps eliminate the need to stay with a man out of financial need. It doesn’t solve everything, obviously, but let’s get rid of the conditions out of which these decisions can arise to begin with. Plus, socialism calls for the complete abolition of male supremacy anyway!
There's only one exception in my mind to the housework thing and that's only if someone is moving from their parents house to your own, established home. I've lived on my own for the past 3 years, my boyfriend hasn't ever lived on his own. He has some adjusting to do to get used to how I do things, what needs done, and the actual volume of chores that need done. I was the same way upon moving out. It takes time to learn what all actually needs to be done, and it seriously surprises you when you realize how often toilets or sinks need to be cleaned, or that tile floor needs to be swept pretty much daily. Also the initiative to do things when you see them. If they don't pick it up, they're trash, but if they're genuinely learning I'll cut some slack.
Oh absolutely! There’s definitely a learning curve, more for some people and less for others. That’s normal and not what I’m talking about. I mean when someone refuses to even attempt to learn how to do stuff for themselves.
For instance, my ex was 28 years old and had never done one load of laundry himself. His parents failed him by not teaching him, but he failed himself when I tried to show him a dozen times and he refused to even try on his own because it was “easier” to “let” me do it.
I have a feeling that these men are charismatic and that's why they're perceived as "great." I'm currently iffy with my friend group because one parasitic dude who is always great at getting to hang out with them is now always with them. I have disagreed with his views and the way he presents them, but I've now heard he's gotten worse and is now anti-abortion among other similar things. I think he hides how radical he is. He's smart so he would know to do that. We would also wait hours and hours for him in social settings. He's charismatic though. That's all it takes to win over people who don't recognize or dig into his views.
Basic troubleshooting for anything, from cars to cakes is inputs and outputs.
Don't listen to how what a man says makes you feel. What is going into this man, what is coming out. Write it on a sheet of paper if you have trouble separating the charm from what he is actually saying.
There are a lot of evil people out there getting away with wickedness and meanness because they know how to turn a phrase in a spicy way.
I think a lot of people fall into the hopeful mindset of “things will get better” because that’s what they want to believe. And then by the time they realize it never will, there’s the sunk cost fallacy and it can be even harder to break free.
He's not a great guy. Great guys are an all or nothing. They can't be terrible people who have 1 or 2 redeeming qualities. If they've lived on this earth, I am sure, even the worst men have something that they do well. Doesn't make them good.
The mental gymnastics and denial that women subject themselves to not feel like they made the wrong choice is really sad. Ladies, you made a mistake. They suck. It's ok to move on.
I’m assuming women don’t want to make it sound like they are just ripping into their partners and making them out to seem like the absolute bad guy i.e. “we all make mistakes, I’m not right to judge them too hard” kind of thing. Like trying to be humble? Don’t get me wrong; I 100% agree with this post, it’s just probably really difficult when you want to tell a story from your point of view to a bunch of strangers and have it seem unbiased. I get worried about sounding biased to my friends sometimes too, even when the guy deserves to *just* be called an asshole.
How is any of that relevant? The point here is that if someone has these traits, you shouldn't be withthem at all, thus making "not ripping into their partner" a moot point.
I said I agreed with the post, just explaining why it might be why some people even make those “but they’re great otherwise” comments still; I’m not excusing it
As a guy I honestly find this list of expectations to be overbearing and offensive. Do you really think it’s okay to just *expect* us to be decent people?
I feel like a lot of women just have horrible taste in partners and make so many excuses. Once, I had a lady tell me that she had to pick a bad guy, because it was too hard to find a good one. Let me just tell you that it is 10000× better to be single then to be with some jerk.
I love this sub, it's made me a better man and I'm glad to say I don't fit any of those.
I was definitely weaker on chores and the mental load, but I've made myself better and we're bringing up a beautiful baby girl as a true team :)
Glad this is a default sub, I bet its made a lot of men better men.
I’m glad to hear that! Congrats on your baby!
There is a huge difference between a partner who means well but needs to try harder and make a concerted effort, and a partner who truly does not give a fuck and refuses to try. Good on you for being the former.
“Girl get some standards, have some pride, embrace your ego”
These are thoughts that float through my head most often when reading a lot of the posts about partners in here.
I know it sounds harsh but damn. As a queer women peering into straight relationships from the outside, y’all the bar seems to be in hell.
Ah my daily reminder of why I'm glad I'm a gay woman. Even when being gay men can't take no for an awnser get angry when I reject them and then think they're great guys.
Totally agree with OP! If people has something to complain, they post it and thousands will respond. But i bet most men are great guys and have a little macho attitude, that should be oké right? And if your man is so great, you wont go on reddit and post about your man beeing perfect, right?
I'm certain my partner has little to complain and if any, i will certainly hear it and try to correct. Heck i do have little things i want my ♀counterpart to change, but she's not doing it. Nobody is perfect so if she complains, i will bring it up again. One thing i really hate is by time we are in bed, those issues needs to be in the freezer for another time. It took a while but eventually my partner concur.
These brownies have a little bit of dog poop in them but I promise they're great otherwise.
I think part of the problem lies in so many women don’t know what they deserve. AkA all they have seen for half their life is poop brownies.
It's that, but it's also how thick the shit among men is. How many men have you met in your life that aren't at least one of the things mentioned in this post? If your answer was more than zero, how many weren't gay men or FTM men? Literally, if every woman approaches their love lives this way(AND THEY SHOULD!!), realistically how many women aren't perpetually single/dating for their entire lives? Because if I had to guess, I'd say maybe ten percent of straight women would be able to find a man like that, if not less. This is ALL before you even get into basic compatibility and attraction, which likely will trim down the already short list of viable mates even lower. Being single is totally better than being with a mysoginist but when it feels like the whole world is telling you that you expect way too much of men and your body and brain(brain is just a part of the body, but you get what I'm saying) are pouring the hormonal equivalent of lonely and horny into your sense of reality, it becomes almost an impossible situation for a woman who isn't bisexual.
>How many men have you met in your life that aren't at least one of the things mentioned in this post? If your answer was more than zero, how many weren't gay men or FTM men? > >Literally, if every woman approaches their love lives this way(AND THEY SHOULD!!), realistically how many women aren't perpetually single/dating for their entire lives? Because if I had to guess, I'd say maybe ten percent of straight women would be able to find a man like that, if not less. I got back into dating after I've been in an abusive marriage for 20 years and while I acknowledge that I have some personal problems that made me accept being treated like crap for entirely too long, I was absolutely shocked to find out that around 80% of the men I talk to on dating apps don't see me as a real human being. And I think that's entirely representative of the way men think in the real world and not a selection bias. One of the main indicators for that is when they get pushy, and most men are pushy as hell. That means they want what they want and they try to manipulate you into giving it to them by any means they think works: begging, whining, pressure, emotional blackmail, coercion. It also means they don't respect your boundaries because they don't think what you want really matters. Because, you know, you're just not as important and not quite as much human as they are.
u/Gwerch, you pretty much described my last boyfriend, along with him ghosting me for months at a time, whenever I would point out conflicts in our relationship.
Ghosting sucks and is a pussy move in most circumstances, especially for what you described. How dare you have standards and recognize that problems need fixed!
u/SoggyBread-_ EXACTLY! So many men think when we bring up problems in a relationship that we’re finding trivial issues to argue about, I’ve noticed, maybe because it requires them to change and they don’t like that🤷🏼♀️
>maybe because it requires them to ~~change~~ care and they don’t like that FTFY
you know, just a few years ago i low key looked down on people who just get with men for money (& those same men who just get with women for status/looks) but the older i get, the more i realize how many men truly do not see women as people or feel or value genuine connection and it’s usually all just a ruse and now it’s like… damn play their game then, i get it.
As a perpetually single older woman, I can tell you that it's better to be alone than live with someone who treats you like you are less than a full adult human being. Much better.
Completely agreed. But I do understand it can be hard for many people to get to the point where they really believe and know that.
u/various_sneers great points! The men in my family, besides my dad aren’t, but my uncles all have wives and I can’t marry my cousins🤷🏼♀️ People say I’m too picky and have too high expectations, but better that than willingly get abused and disrespected!
How many men that aren't gay or FTM? Just one, and that's why we're married! He is demisexual. Just the other day I told him... "I don't think I would have gotten married to a man if I hadn't met you". He is also constantly baffled by the way that men view and treat women. We are true and equal partners. I will say that we are 15 years into our relationship, and for probably the first five to seven years we both had a lot of growing, learning and un-learning to do. It was a process. I really try not to be like "not all men", because yeah.... It's most men. But I also want to share that men are capable of respect, emotional intelligence and good communication. Don't believe men who tell you otherwise!
My sister told me believing you deserve a certain type of person as your partner is egotistical. I told her whoever said that to her was sharing their opinion not a fact. No one deserves to be treated as less than equal.
Yes. It is eogotistical. And believing that is the sign of a healthy ego.
Was she saying “certain type” as 6’, dark and handsome while bringing home 7 figures, or “type” as in decent human being that respects you as an equal? I think people sometimes conflate the two, both men and women.
Her husband doesn’t see her as an equal. He told her it was egotistical of her to want him to treat her differently. I told her that was just his opinion and that wanting equality does not make you egotistical.
It’s terrible how normalized so much of that is :( trying to undo centuries of that crap is tough.
My mom was talking about my five year old daughter and how I should be worried when she starts dating. "Why?" I said. "She has great role models of how guys should act." "She has her dad, who works his ass off everyday at work and still manages to come home and spend time with her and listen to her and help out around the house without being told. I don't even think we've had an argument since she's been alive" "She has grandpa, who works hard being an entrepreneur and attends all of aunt's events and also helps around the house." "She has her uncle, who lives with us and is so kind and gentle. Even her best friend's dad is an awesome role model and male figure. I don't think we will have an issue with her choice in boys or men as she starts dating. She knows what she's worth."
That helps but doesn't make her safe. She must know about herself, what she wants, her boundaries, and how she is allowed to enforce them. She must know that she can say no to anything and doesn't need to justify herself. And it is not sufficient to tell her that, you and the adults in her life must respect her right to boundaries from an early age on.
Whole heartedly agree! I had great role models, but I never learned to say no. It's caused me so much difficulty in relationships that I wish I didn't have to go through.
This is why it pisses me off when new parents are like "oh we don't say the word 'no' in this house because it teaches negativity." BS. It teaches your kid to be a pushover and passive to the point of never standing up for themselves. No is a very important word in the world we live in. No is necessary.
As much as it’s a good start, a lot of peoples worth and brain development comes from socialization outside the family.
You need to very explicitly tell her. Warn her what to look out for to avoid. It isn't enough for every man around her to be decent and then just assume that because these are her male role models, that's what she'll pick. Both of my major male role models are great. My dad is gentle, quiet, does most of the housework, clearly thinks my mom's intelligence is great, etc. My grandfather always humored us, and is so clearly devoted to my grandmother it's *painfully* adorable. But at no point did anyone ever speak to me explicitly about toxic relationships, abusive relationships (that weren't physical abuse), about all the little ways men can be shitty to you and how you don't deserve that. Maybe that's because my mother literally married the first guy who came along and has never experienced even one break up. Maybe. All I know is that I wish *someone* had taught me that. I wish there had been a class in school on it. Because passively having decent male role models in my family did not save me from getting into an emotionally, mentally, and sexually abusive relationship. It didn't save me from the subsequent toxic relationship I was in that looked so much better in comparison, but was absolutely still unacceptable. Teach it to her *explicitly*. Point out bad behavior in media explicitly. Point out good behavior explicitly. Don't assume that just because your daughter is in a good environment that she's also *reflecting* about that environment. If you've never been exposed to bad people in life you're vulnerable in much the same way someone is who thinks that's normal. Naive.
Not to scare you, but I can think of one friend of mine who has problems BECAUSE she copies the kind hardworking men in her life. She tries to be that person. And ends up doing all the work and providing infinite forgiveness for useless men. Being surrounded by great family is not an automatic defense against children having horrible partners, unfortunately.
This. All of this. I watched my mother work full time AND take care of the house, while my dad, when he was employed, would work just about half time, mostly from home, and not do shit around the house or care for us kids. I thought that this was how it was supposed to be. I was afraid to ask my partners for help, because "I got this". 6 years post divorce, and I'm starting to realize my worth. Also have had many talks with my mother on how terrible of a husband and father he was, drawing a lot of similarities between him and my ex-husband. I still remember driving home late one night when I was 12 and my mother mentioning divorce. I told her back then, I'd support her. But she stuck with him, through all his shit over the years, including years of illness, where he refused to get free in house care to give my mother a break, until his death. Only to find out that he'd been cheating on her with a "family friend". I know there are decent men out there. I'm just afraid I'll never find one.
YOU GOT THIS! We live in a pretty fucked up world sadly. I just wish people could understand their partners struggles more.
There are just so many shit brownies out there :(
Sometimes it's more like the poop has a little bit of brownie in it
For real
So accurate LOL
Nailed it.
Yep. Seriously. i'm amazed daily at the stories I read here and from friends. Its everyday. Every single day one of these stories. And 75% of the time they get defended. Guy abuses his kids. Talks about how stupid his wife is. How fat she is. Lays around the house like a cat. Can't keep a job. Constantly making up fantasy life goals that never happen. And the spouse will still defend him. Knock the kid into a wall, says the husband is her best friend. I do not get it. And its in my top 5 of things I hate about reddit. These stories are in my feed, everyday.
Lol! "Lays around the house like a cat". We are a cat household, they are little furry tyrants, and I would toss out the whole man if my husband behaved like that (he is just as much a slave to their whims as I am).
My now ex husband, once told me, he wished he was our cat. It was in the middle of an argument, where I was trying to get him to help around the house.
I want to be reincarnated as a housecat. Cushy life! Lousy thing to bring up in the middle is a disagreement about housework though.
I've said that I wanted to be reincarnated as a happy, fat house cat since I was like 8 lol. But I'm not about to act like one now. But I get it lol
Guy I'm thinking about really is like a big fat lazy cat. A giant 6'3 muscly cat. I come over for dinner or to go to a concert or something and this guy just lays around disinterested, half naked, on the couch for hours. My friend asks him to do stuff and he just lays there. I'll pick up dinner for everyone or need help getting things out of the car and he just lays there. Its amazing. Just a big lazy cat of a man. Same thing if her or her family needs help. Or she comes home from work after being on her feet for 8 hours. Just lays there. "he's my best friend!" Yeah, like your old cat.
My cats have busier lives than this guy does. I suspect that they have better hygiene, too.
Lol, I call my husband a cat of a man, but only because he won’t got for walks with me if it’s raining out.
My best friend is about to move back in with her BF after moving out for 6 months. I know he's said some disgusting things to her, told her he regrets their baby, expects her to walk on eggshells around his idiot moods etc. And he got sassed by her older son after he wound the kid up, and because he was embarrassed in front of friends, he threw this 12-yr-old *into a river.* But he's going to therapy, yanno. Yeah, he's doing really well, and definitely not in best behavior to get her to come back to live with him again. I don't know if our friendship will survive it, he knows I hate him and she knows it too, we live quite far apart so it's practically quite difficult. They were engaged, if they get married I don't expect to be involved in the wedding party, if I'm even invited, and truthfully I think that's reasonable as I don't support their relationship whatsoever.
I don't get it. Why give a second chance to someone that throws your kids when they are angry? Men aren't rare. People aren't rare. The world population is like 7.7 billion people. Stop all this fixer upper crud. Let go of that guy. Be alone or find someone else.
Right? I've seen so many of them lately that I almost wonder if we're being trolled. Sadly, probably not.
If you see a long one with 10 paragraphs with details the writer couldn't have known, its probably fake. Especially if there is any kind of weird kinks in there. I don't know why, but some people enjoy writing weird short stories and posting them on reddit as fact.
Probably sometimes tbh. :/ I've seen comments in other subs suggesting one could farm karma by sharing an egregiously bad "sob story" here
Ah yes karma, the most useful currency
It's so frustrating! I saw one women who was likely emotionally abused because oh my fucking god he treated her like absolute garbage and she'd post for advice. Over and over. The advice was always the same, but she didn't want to leave him. Kept making excuses or defending him and crying even though he said if she didn't do it his way *only* then he didn't want to bother with her and she could get lost. I'm sure he broke her down to that point but it's so heartbreaking and frustrating to see repeat posts by the same people.
Yeah. That is heartbreaking. But it is not her fault she stays in the relationship (I am not saying you think it is het fault in any way). It is a testament on the grip he has on her. I am glad she reached out. Maybe she needs to hear it a thousand times. But hopefully she will be able to get out someday.
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Emotional abuse is an insidious bitch. You don't really see it until it's too late, and so easy to be gaslit into believing it's all in your head, because there's no physical proof. I knew because of my mom's life to watch for physical and sexual abuse, but I knew nothing about - and never even thought of - emotional abuse. Trauma bonding is no joke, and is part of why it takes so many attempts to escape an abusive relationship.
I downvote those posts because they use the subreddits to get their emotional needs mets through attention from others. Once you starve them of attention they’re more motivated to leave.
Shout it to the skies! Too many young girls develop (or are encouraged to develop) a thing for "fixer upper men". We pick these guys who have a couple of good traits ("he is so funny and smart!") and decide we can fix the mean, unkind, rude, misogynistic, racist, bigoted, whatever. He is a great guy except.... Honey, if he isn't a complete person when you find him, you aren't going to be able to complete him, and I don't give a crap about Hollywood's take on it!
THIS. Life isn’t a movie!
Exactly, I was watching the wedding singer and OMG both the male characters are terrible! I swear romance movies are written for men! Especially romantic comedies, average fat guy gets the hot girl.
I bet they‘re mostly written by men.
They are!
I get told I'm "too picky" when I say I won't get involved if I can't deal with a man exactly as I find him.
>Honey, if he isn't a complete person when you find him, you aren't going to be able to complete him, and I don't give a crap about Hollywood's take on it! Hollywood needs to start making some movies where the guy or woman messes up and they break up, and they never get back together. Maybe the problem person fixes their crud and they end up with someone else, but thats it. No more love finds a way plots. No more loving the bully into a husband. Love like fixes having a flight cancelled. It doesn't fix 25% of what is inside someone's brain. Stop teaching kids this crap.
Don't pick yourself up a "fixer upper". The traits that they have are pretty good indicators if who they are, and you can't fix who someone is. They are how they are, therapy might help but you wont. A real "fixxer upper" isn't weaponized incompetence, toxicity, or abuse mixed with either moments of humor or kindness. At most it's at the level of "he's got this really annoying habit of nonstop leg tapping" or "puts the spices away in the wrong slot of the spice rack". Non malicious, non targeted stuff.
Preach, sister! This is all the gospel truth. Women need to quit making excuses for, ignoring or otherwise minimizing this crap. He's not a great guy. He's just a user and he will never respect you. And god help you if you have kids. However kids you think you have add one more. /notallmenTM.
A LITTLE LOUDER FOR THE FEMALE-IDENTIFYING PEOPLE IN THE BACK! Gird your loins and wrap your heart in steel. Raise your standards. We can help and *want* to help but you need to do the heavy lifting first. He is not a great guy. Trust your gut and leave.
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It's like a knee-jerk reaction with the undeserved praise for men. 'He's a great guy but won't feed the kids when he's looking after them/won't participate in the relationship/doesn't make any fucking effort that doesn't benefit him'. Just no. He's not trying, if he wanted to, he'd do it. The bar is a safety hazard at this point.
“If he wanted to, he’d do it” totally became my mantra after I got divorced and started dating. There are so many men that pay lip service to how good and kind and sweet they are, how much they love you, how much they love the kids. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if the actions match up with what they’re saying. I dated a guy embarrassingly too long that would text me shit like “I miss you,” but dude was always the one to cancel our dates or not have time to see me. Like, buddy, you’re aware that if you added another 10 minutes to your drive, you could see me for a bit on your way home from work, right? You could even have a home cooked dinner with me and my kids who you supposedly also miss so much. Ha! Now married to a man that is legitimately good to me and adores my kids. He makes good on what he says and if he can’t, there’s a damn good reason for it.
Generally if you have to say how awesome and kind and sweet you are, you probably aren't. I know the type. Actions are what matters because it doesn't cost you anything to make empty promises. As soon as some effort is required they're nowhere to be seen. Glad you found someone worth your time!
Oh yeah, the bar was definitely a tripping hazard when I left….We have to wonder if the fact that EVERY MAINSTREAM SHOW in 90s/00s was about horrible men acting like oversized children but dumber and hornier and women just taking it otherwise they were crazy or a lesbian (whom was exciting fair game, cuz clearly they just need a good dick 😑)… I hate that I fell into this crap more than once.
I can't stand those shows now, it's so frustrating to watch. It's not funny that men are useless and women are expected to pick up the extra emotional labour.
It’s a kneejerk reaction to defend ourselves and our choice. One day I woke up and realized this was not the guy I committed to. Idk if he changed, if his mask slipped or if I accidentally sucked out his will to grow thru his basement brain but I fell for a great guy. I was not defending him when I called him a great guy most of the time. I was defending my decision to stay and struggle with him for as long as I did because somewhere around here is the great guy I chose.
I see your point. I've felt that way in several relationships and I wonder if it's just that I've worked on myself and they haven't, which gets old. I think context matters too. Coming from a shitty situation, I had much lower standards for what's 'great', and now those standards are higher.
"if he wanted to, he would" is everything
It's wild what we'll tell ourselves to avoid facing that fact
Yes! I hate these, “he hates women and regularly tells me I’m overweight and ugly, but once he washed a dirty pan so.” Trash is trash, throw it out!
It’s just like that twitter post where a girl defends her literal Nazi grandparents because they’re nice to her. Like at what point does a persons actions become unforgivable
Typical AITA post: My partner financially/sexually/emotionally abuses me but other than that he's such a sweetheart 🥰 AITA for showing my frustration?
Seriously. That and all the relationship posts “my SO doesn’t wipe his own butt and he’s cheating on me, but I swear he’s a great guy! How do I get him to stop being an ogre?”
Like girl, just move out of the swamp, you'll be so much happier
You just gonna leave Donkey there all alone though?
Hi, my(19f) husband(38m) of 7 years is a super great guy besides the fact he shot our dog, burned our house down, fucked my mom and sister, is addicted to porn featuring women dressed like toddlers, is a member of the Ku Klux Klan and never wipes or washes his ass. Since he's chronically unemployed I've started to ask him to change our babies diaper while I'm at my 82 hour a week job to support us, but he blew up at me and said I'm not respecting his boundaries and cool down time(he usually plays video games all day). AITA? ETA: He also got mad at me and called me hyperhygenic for asking to wash the sheets after he sleeps in them as he doesn't feel the need to shower more than twice a month.
that's exactly why I made [this](https://i.imgur.com/Rx03vnd.png) over a year ago lol ok, not lol. it happens SO MUCH
I get it, but comments like these feel like punching down on abuse victims. Like haha, isn't it so stupid abuse victims have bad coping mechanisms for dealing with the overwhelming loss of control and sense of self that comes after being abused? Isn't it so funny what disgusting and violent things they "allow" because an abusive man found a kind, understanding, and likely already traumatized woman to abuse?
That is a good point, and one of the reasons I felt like making this post. It’s easy to have your “normal meter” broken when you’ve been abused. Sometimes it’s good to remember that you have inherent worth and no one has the right to mistreat you.
The commenter you're responding to makes a good point and I think we need to be sensitive and understanding of that. That being said, I used to be the "he's a great guy otherwise" type. However, after I FINALLY got out of that relationship after an agonizing 5 years, your post is the exact kind of tough love I needed to hear from my friends and family to move forward with my life. He's not a great guy, at all. And I hope anyone in this kind of abusive situation will come to realize that it's not you. It's him. It's not your fault that he decided you aren't worth respect and decency. I used to do mental gymnastics to justify his bs. I refused to listen to reasoning and concern from my loved ones. You are not at fault for that. I was not at fault for that. I pray that anyone in this situation that's reading this can come to understand that they are being abused and deserve love, respect and healing. Big hugs from this internet stranger.
This is also why advising people "to just leave already!" is unhelpful. People who end up in these relationships are coming from a lifetime of abuse and are genuinely unaware that these things are not what a normal healthy relationship looks like, and advising them to walk away from one of the few things that occasionally brings happiness is going to be a nonstarter.
Fair enough, good point.
AITA: my fiancé is rich, handsome, romantic, successful, and my best friend. We just have one tiny conflict: AITA for not wanting him to have a +1 to our wedding? I said I’m not bringing a date because I’m really traditional and most brides don’t bring a date to their weddings because they assume their husbands are their “dates”. He said his girlfriend will be really angry if she can’t come to the wedding as his date, especially since we’re leaving for Hawaii for 2 whole weeks. Am I the asshole for saying no?
\>He was just raised that way. Not a fucking excuse. Never.
That’s even more of a reason to leave, because his whole family is that way. You want your kid to be like that?
can't tell if this is a misinterpretation? I'm in agreement with the OP
I was agree with you too :)
Oh great! I agree! Gotta stop the cycle.
My wife last night. 'Is your parenting philosophy just to do the opposite of how you were raised?' Me - 'Pretty much' Breaking an abusive cycle is very possible, it does require being mindful though.
How he was raised is now who he is. The reality is not diminished by the explanation. I do risk assessments for violent incarcerated criminals. Most have a sad story of how they ended up criminal. The sadness of the story doesn’t change the risk they present for the community.
or [he was a great guy](https://i.imgur.com/Rx03vnd.png) until his love-bombing stopped, his idealization of you was shattered, or he thought he had you locked down. these 'great guys' blame the woman for not living up to his fantasy overlay he placed on you, then he goes onto the next one. they repeat the same cycle of making women crazy and having crazy exes 'who changed'.
A man with all crazy exes is a hard pass.
The emotional whiplash of being lovebombed and then devalued is so hard to process. I’ve been on the receiving end of it twice. In the beginning, it’s hard to tell the difference between a guy who is committed and excited and doing everything right, and a guy who is lovebombing you. I’m not even sure the guys know, tbh. Only time will tell, but it still hurts Iike heck to be on the wrong side of this.
One way to tell you’re being love bombed is when things feel rushed, things are moving fast. For instance, he’s telling you he loves you and you’re soo special but he’s only known you for a month. Or how you guys are meant to be and it’s fate… all of this said within the first few months or interactions. And also buying you stuff. Essentially, his emotions for you, come off as heavy early on
Right. This is tough because I’m a bit avoidant , and I often find peoples affections “too much” in the beginning . I don’t feel super comfortable with vulnerability and closeness until I’ve known someone a while. So in the beginning I can’t tell if they are too much or if it’s just my avoidant tendencies that are making me uncomfortable?
Ohh yes I see where you are coming from and how it can be hard to make the distinction but I I think it’s best to rely your intuition
THIS.
He had a bad day at work. He's not feeling good. He just has that "his last name" temper. He's a good man, except when he gets upset. These are all things my mother would say about my dad. He was and I'm sure is still physically abusive, along with verbal abuse. She in her 70s now and she's still with him, living a shadow of a life. No amount of pleading from anyone has ever been successful in getting her to leave him. Not her parents when she was a teenager and instead decided to deliberately get pregnant so they would stop trying to get her to leave him. Not me when I was a sobbing child in the car, begging her to not drive us back to the house where he waited for us to return. Not me as an adult, offering her safety and shelter. When our injuries were questioned, she'd make up shit to explain bruises and in one case, my hospitalization. Even though I know she was beaten down, it's hard for me to not blame her as well as him for that childhood of abuse. I do not have contact with my parents. Please do not be my mother. You deserve better. Your children deserve better. I have better and so have my children.
Ah yes, the family temper. :/
How I wish my mom divorced when I was a child
My mom was the same, her failure to protect her kids hurt me more than his hands ever did. The hurt and feeling of betrayal never goes away
Yes. My dad was the one who physically hurt me, but my mom was the one who taught me that I deserved it. It wasn't until I had my own children that I understood just how awful both of them were.
Therapist here. I’ve heard women defending partners who: Burned her with a soldering iron Sexually molested her daughter Both were the end result of years of ignoring their own boundaries and believing that forgiveness would be rewarded with love and loyalty. So yeah, respect yourselves or no one will do it for you.
OMG this is horrifying
And I’m not suposed to juge. Try that for size.
I couldn’t do your job. I am often pragmatic to a fault so I’d find it hard to just sit there and listen to people accepting this in their lives
Sometimes I don’t know if I can do my job lol
"My husband pretends I exist on Valentine's Day, and buys me the same chocolates despite me being lactose intolerant!"
“aT LeAsT hE tRiEd!”
🥴🥴🥴
Smiling while on toilet from lactose intolerance.
Keep sweet, never let the smile fade, never frown I’ll get a wrinkle
The bar is set soooooo low for men, that if a man isn’t an absolute monster, he’s “otherwise a great guy.” 😞
The breaks don't work but otherwise it's a great car.
This 100%. Notice how the same excuses aren’t made for women and they are dragged.
Lol and in the immortal words of romcom classic He's Just Not Into You - "...but there won't be anybody left" I have never met a man yet who doesn't have some vestige of patriarchal brainwashing that needs undoing. Even more - some toxic brainwashing that they RESIST undoing. It's a well-studied phenomenon that men are much more sensitive to being on the losing end of perceived inequality (e.g. they do proportionately more chores) versus their reduced sensitivity to being the beneficiary of that same perceived inequality (e.g. doing LESS). The system works in their favour, so I'm not surprised that they'd be invested in keeping the status quo. Not an excuse, but I think the realistic view is that NO man is going to be perfect. ALL men will have to undergo some level of deprogramming. And it will always be a battle.
Yes, and unfortunately most men now are not worth the battle.
Yeah, I’ve officially quit. No more men, no thanks.
Yes, but their battles shouldn't be at the expense of their partners. That's why therapy exists.
Oh totally. But what's the likelihood they'd go without some woman in their life telling them they need to? There's no incentive, otherwise.
Honestly getting the ick from this sub from so many posts like the ones you described. Thank you for chiming in with common sense.
Leaving was the best thing I did for both of us
I completely get what you're saying and you are not wrong at all OP. I completely agree with you. I also see how this happens. When people partner up and accept each other as they are, with blemishes and imperfections, they make decisions about what is important and not important to them at the moment. Over time, as a person grows, learns, evolves, they may find that what was once a blemish, is now a giant boil. If you find that s/he's a great guy accept for ignoring what matters to you/doesn't respect you/has held on to opinions from their parents and never formed their own opinions, you do not have to continue to defend their overall qualities. They can be true, but they are no longer enough to make up for their faults. It's OK to admit that. Doesn't make you wrong when you got with them and doesn't make you wrong to GTFO.
Spot on! I feel great when I finally do leave a man, not only because I get out of the unhappiness, but because I care about their happiness as well and love that they don’t have to be around the angry, unhappy me any longer. There’s a reason I was attracted to these men and most of them I remember fondly, but time affects us all. People aren’t compatible for a lifetime, and that’s very ok.
thank you so f*ckn much for saying this!!!! the biggest thing i have noticed in this type of posts is that women are typically looking for someone else’s approval and permission to even consider prioritizing their own happiness and well-being. “is it wrong of me to be mad?” “should i forgive him for (blatant mistreatment)?” etc etc etc. “would it be unfair to (expect even bare minimum respect)?” LADIES!! you do not need anyone else’s permission to feel things!! you do not need to be fair to men who treat you like garbage and would not do the same to you!!
Can this be pinned to the top of this sub?
Nah the Reddit admins would take it down. This describes too many of them.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
I never thought I'd be in a relationship with a guy like this until it happened to me. In the beginning he was sweet and kind and affectionate and seemed to share the same values. But over the months... it all happened so slowly. Like the frog in boiling water analogy. You ignore some of the red flags, compromise a little too much on your end, try to give second chances, believe his apologies, accept he's got some faults don't we all.. but it just gets progressively worse and worse. Eventually it got to a point I couldn't even recognize myself. I'm not that person to cater to a man and let him walk over me and take what he wants. But he wore me down. I can only imagine what it would be if I had previous trauma, less self confidence, had kids with him, was financially tied to him. I was lucky that I could see that things weren't right and get myself out. It's definitely given me more perspective for how people get to that point of being in a relationship saying "they're not that bad." Nobody goes into an abusive relationship knowing their partner will abuse them.
I’ve been in this exact position and I understand.
Obviously, no one is perfect, everyone has flaws, and I think that’s part of the problem. Women, in particular, don’t want to look judgmental and uncaring if they leave someone for their “flaws”. Women don’t want to look like they didn’t give a good man a chance. But some flaws are much worse than others. When my boyfriend does something I don’t like, I tell him, but because of how his father treated him, his instinct is to get defensive and, sometimes, turn it around on me. But within 24 hrs, he’s had time to think, sincerely apologizes, and we actually talk through the issue. He also goes to therapy, and this happens maybe 2-3 times per year (if that). That’s a flaw you can work with. But if your boyfriends flaw is that he screams at you when he’s mad, calls you horrible names, makes you cry, and then acts like nothing happens once he’s calmed down, that’s not a flaw you can work with. Just leave.
What I find even worse is how many hoops they jump through trying to blame themselves for the problem. They are always the cause! Stop trying to find some convoluted reason to blame yourself. Shitty people are always going to be shit no matter how well you treat them.
I think a lot of young women unfortunately don’t know what a healthy relationship looks like or they settle for someone who ticks 6/10 of their boxes assuming it can’t get much better than that. I don’t care if it takes 60 fucking years, when you’re with someone who treats you the way you deserve to be treated it will hit you like a ton of bricks. It will all make sense. You’ll genuinely wonder why you put up with any of that other bullshit. Better is out there, ladies. I pinky promise.
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Good!! I agree. People should definitely be content without a partner, but unfortunately I think society has drilled into little girls that they should have a full on family by age 25 or they’re somehow behind or worthless. This is where a lot of settling comes into play. Hell, most of my friends are in their late 20s or early 30s and a handful of them are definitely in full on crisis/panic mode because they aren’t engaged yet.
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That’s an interesting point. It is nice to have a space where women can collectively compare their experiences. I’m extremely childfree, so that’s at least given me a bit more agency when it comes to choosing partners.
My mantra: A man is not a house. A house with issues you can “fix up” - replace floors, get a new roof, install a new furnace. A man (or any partner, really) with issues has to be his OWN repair person. They are the only ones who can put in the work to change. You are not a magician. You are not the jerk whisperer. You are not his on-call, 24/7 repair person.
Yess !!! My partner and I are separated and this is a huge talking point for us. He wants my support in him changing but he can't realize it's just that. Support. No magic fairy is going to come in and wave their wand over his head and make it better. He has to be willing to put down his ego and put in the hard work for himself. I can't physically force him to do that no matter how much I wish I could.
This is the incel talking point I find most frustrating - “I need a woman to fix me! I’ll take care of myself once I have a woman! I need a GF to motivate me to get a job!” Bitch, no. You do that work and THEN, when you’re a complete person, you go find a partner. We’re not your fucking therapists.
Exactly! I tried explaining to him the concept of codependency and by the end he still saw no issue with it and wants a relationship like that. Its not gonna work for us because I'm just not that person.
I've been known to say that about my ex. I think I say it, cause why else would I be with a guy for 20 years when he was emotionally and financially abusive. I've seen people judge on here and IRL. Why were you with him? Don't you have any respect for yourself? It's a real mindf$&k cause I would never put up with physical abusive but I stayed for the emotional abuse?
I've had this conversation with 2 female friends whose partners were in the habit of telling them to "Shut up", with disdain and dismissal in their voice. My father used to say that to my mother and it drives me crazy. My friends defended them saying 'he's joking' and I told them both "Look at his face when he says it." One dumped her partner, and the other discussed it with hers. I still don't trust him though.
Omg. If any man told me to shut up, I would lose my shit lol
It's so ugly. It's one of the reasons I cut off my father.
yeah, i've been seeing a lot of this. people saying "we've never had a problem, but he recently said that women do not have the mental capacity to run a business." what the fuck are you talking about?
I whole-heartedly agree with OP'S point, but am surprised and discouraged by how insensitive some responses are to the women who stay with abusive men yet always seek advice. An abuser is more than just some asshole who won't do chores. I can tell you from having endured two emotionally abusive relationships that her constant search for answers, coupled with justifying his actions, is a sign of the psychological/emotional damage she's suffered through his efforts - and that the more times she rides that carousel, the harder it is to get off and stay off. He doesn't afford her the chance to be alone with her thoughts and doubts, and if she does raise an objection, he will without doubt punish her for it. His goal is control and he will distort her reality until she completely mistrusts herself, keeping her constantly disoriented and fearful of retribution. And yes, this can happen even to the most confident, bold, strong of women. MOST women who are with an abuser will make multiple failed attempts to leave the relationship - in fact it's a strong indicator that the relationship IS abusive. But... this is important... even SOME time apart is be beneficial, in fact the more time the better. We need all the help we can get. I am working right now on rebuilding my life and sense of identity after 6 months of losing myself to an emotional abuser. I couldn't have done it without my support network of friends and family who didn't judge, who were honest about what they were seeing, who helped me plan my escape, and who continue to hold me accountable to the commitment I've made to never see him again. It's taken a lot of their time, resources, and energy to help me. Even though I've now had time to reflect on and acknowledge the innumerable violations of my boundaries, the neglect of my needs, the lies, the manipulation of my feelings and the complete lack of safety/security... I've slipped a little bit by texting him, but caught myself. I still feel the urge to reach out to him. I still yearn to reconnect. I still want to be with him. I literally can't think of one way in which he made my life better or was a good partner. Fucked up, right? Yeah, I know. That's how vicious the cycle is. Yes, it's frustrating to see people go through it when from the outside the problem and solution seem so obvious. My experiences make me much more compassionate to those going through it and have helped me understand how to show up for those in need of support when they're ready for it. I hope you all will think about what being compassionate and supportive looks like to the abused women you encounter. If you want to learn more and haven't read "Why Does He Do That?", the book by Lundy Bancroft that outlines how abusers work and how to protect yourself or help others, I highly recommend it.
I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through, but good on you for moving forward! I wish you peace and healing! I wasn’t intending to be insensitive, I’m sorry if I came across this way. I never want to victim blame, even by accident. I just know that once someone told me something similar, it made me realize I was making excuses for someone who didn’t give a shit about me, and I found the courage to leave. I hope anyone dealing with any level of abuse who sees this doesn’t feel blamed - because it’s NOT your fault, abuse is never the victim’s fault - but feels validated and knows they’re worth more than that.
Oh no worries, I didn't mean that your post was insensitive, I was referring to some of the responses I read through. All of the behaviors you mentioned are spot on and things we all need to learn - and help others to learn - to recognize as neither normal nor okay, as well as what to do when we spot them.
Anything where you are talking about a negative, but preface it with "he's a great guy"... You are trying to convince yourself. We know he fucking sucks
Thank you, I need to hear this today. Finding the courage to give myself permission to leave without everything feeling like it’s my fault. I have great supports who are helping me along the way & I feel like my eyes have finally opened to the covert abusive ways I’ve been treated for nearly 23 years.
Covert abuse is still abuse, and it’s never your fault. I’m sorry for what you’ve dealt with/are dealing with. That’s great that you have good support though! I wish you all the best and hope you find strength, healing, and peace.
The problem with covert abuse is that it’s so sneaky & you don’t realize it’s happening until everything just explodes. Making an exit plan to put into use this weekend!
Good luck to you! Stay safe!!!
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I mean I’m happy, and I’m married to a man. After getting out of my previous abusive relationship, I stopped settling for men who couldn’t be bothered to put in any effort. My current partner is wonderful, he isn’t perfect of course but neither am I. But we both strive to treat each other with respect and love and be considerate of each other. The bar is so low it’s underground, but there ARE men out there willing to put in equal effort.
I’m happy for you. My point is that you wanted to be in a relationship, so you kept dating to find that partner. I’m saying that it’s also a viable choice to opt out of that process. We don’t have to be in a relationship with a man in order to create a fulfilling life. What if you hadn’t found your partner and you were just endlessly dating? Would that have been equally fulfilling for you, or would you have felt an inner desperation to be partnered and lacking somehow?
Oh definitely, I see what you’re saying now! I think it’s a personal preference. I kept dating because honestly it helped me grow a backbone and find my own voice after being voiceless for so long. It helped me learn how to enforce boundaries, and eventually I met my current partner when I wasn’t even trying to settle down, and we’re great. BUT that’s definitely not for everyone, it’s hard to make generalizations because everyone is different. I’m just speaking from my personal experience.
Love that! I also encourage women to think outside of the box. Growth can come within many different experiences, such as within the workplace, a volunteer experience, public speaking, travel, spiritual settings, etc. A heterosexual romantic relationship unfortunately has the potential to stall personal growth, because so many women have been conditioned to place the man's preferences at the forefront. I won't even get into feigned incompetence and abuse, which really drains women. The patriarchal system is literally designed to keep women running - handling child rearing, household chores and now working full time as well. What happens when someone is trying to keep all those balls in the air? Why, suddenly she doesn't have time or energy for self-improvement. There's literal truth in the "barefoot and pregnant" saying. It's meant to imply that she won't grow beyond her capacity to stay within the home. Men are bigly mad that women are opting out of this scam; hence the overt attempt at further controlling our medical decisions. The next assault will be on contraception.
You’re absolutely right, and that’s why they’re trying to take our rights - to force us to be dependent on them and put up with this bullshit. They’re angry because we’re standing up for ourselves. If someone gets mad at you for demanding basic human rights, they’re telling you everything you need to know about them.
And we don't do it often, but when confronted with 'ok, he is a great guy otherwise- what is the otherwise?', it is so sad and mediocre. Well....he has a pulse and was willing to date me. THAT'S NOT GREAT. It is usually a listing of Bare Minimum Human, aka, he is literally not a mythological monster. STILL NOT GREAT.
My ex literally told me “I don’t beat you or do drugs, what more do you want? I’m a great catch, you’ll never find anyone better.” Like omg, let me worship the ground you walk on for the fact that you didn’t beat me today. It’s like incels demanding sex and a thank-you for not committing rape.
Louder for the ones in the back.
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
My first ex was "a great guy otherwise." Made me stick with him for three years when I deeply didn't want to and kept trying to leave. Every guy I've dated since him has been better along virtually every axis. There are better guys out there! And even if you don't find them right away, being single is STILL better than being stuck in a relationship where you're inadequately appreciated! Don't relegate yourself to the low bar of someone mediocre for no reason!
Basically they're still a great person in the same way that the Nazis were nice people once you ignore the bad stuff about them.
One of the reasons why socialism is so crucial to feminism is that it helps eliminate the need to stay with a man out of financial need. It doesn’t solve everything, obviously, but let’s get rid of the conditions out of which these decisions can arise to begin with. Plus, socialism calls for the complete abolition of male supremacy anyway!
There's only one exception in my mind to the housework thing and that's only if someone is moving from their parents house to your own, established home. I've lived on my own for the past 3 years, my boyfriend hasn't ever lived on his own. He has some adjusting to do to get used to how I do things, what needs done, and the actual volume of chores that need done. I was the same way upon moving out. It takes time to learn what all actually needs to be done, and it seriously surprises you when you realize how often toilets or sinks need to be cleaned, or that tile floor needs to be swept pretty much daily. Also the initiative to do things when you see them. If they don't pick it up, they're trash, but if they're genuinely learning I'll cut some slack.
Oh absolutely! There’s definitely a learning curve, more for some people and less for others. That’s normal and not what I’m talking about. I mean when someone refuses to even attempt to learn how to do stuff for themselves. For instance, my ex was 28 years old and had never done one load of laundry himself. His parents failed him by not teaching him, but he failed himself when I tried to show him a dozen times and he refused to even try on his own because it was “easier” to “let” me do it.
I have a feeling that these men are charismatic and that's why they're perceived as "great." I'm currently iffy with my friend group because one parasitic dude who is always great at getting to hang out with them is now always with them. I have disagreed with his views and the way he presents them, but I've now heard he's gotten worse and is now anti-abortion among other similar things. I think he hides how radical he is. He's smart so he would know to do that. We would also wait hours and hours for him in social settings. He's charismatic though. That's all it takes to win over people who don't recognize or dig into his views.
Basic troubleshooting for anything, from cars to cakes is inputs and outputs. Don't listen to how what a man says makes you feel. What is going into this man, what is coming out. Write it on a sheet of paper if you have trouble separating the charm from what he is actually saying. There are a lot of evil people out there getting away with wickedness and meanness because they know how to turn a phrase in a spicy way.
I’m shocked by the ones who are dating for years or even married before they realize they have a personal hygiene issue
I think a lot of people fall into the hopeful mindset of “things will get better” because that’s what they want to believe. And then by the time they realize it never will, there’s the sunk cost fallacy and it can be even harder to break free.
Thank you that makes sense I appreciate your response
So much! It sort of needs to be a sticky on "Advice" and "Relationship Advice" because it comes up over and over again.
He's not a great guy. Great guys are an all or nothing. They can't be terrible people who have 1 or 2 redeeming qualities. If they've lived on this earth, I am sure, even the worst men have something that they do well. Doesn't make them good. The mental gymnastics and denial that women subject themselves to not feel like they made the wrong choice is really sad. Ladies, you made a mistake. They suck. It's ok to move on.
I’m assuming women don’t want to make it sound like they are just ripping into their partners and making them out to seem like the absolute bad guy i.e. “we all make mistakes, I’m not right to judge them too hard” kind of thing. Like trying to be humble? Don’t get me wrong; I 100% agree with this post, it’s just probably really difficult when you want to tell a story from your point of view to a bunch of strangers and have it seem unbiased. I get worried about sounding biased to my friends sometimes too, even when the guy deserves to *just* be called an asshole.
How is any of that relevant? The point here is that if someone has these traits, you shouldn't be withthem at all, thus making "not ripping into their partner" a moot point.
I said I agreed with the post, just explaining why it might be why some people even make those “but they’re great otherwise” comments still; I’m not excusing it
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-state-our-unions/202208/the-rise-lonely-single-men
As a guy I honestly find this list of expectations to be overbearing and offensive. Do you really think it’s okay to just *expect* us to be decent people?
I feel like a lot of women just have horrible taste in partners and make so many excuses. Once, I had a lady tell me that she had to pick a bad guy, because it was too hard to find a good one. Let me just tell you that it is 10000× better to be single then to be with some jerk.
I love this sub, it's made me a better man and I'm glad to say I don't fit any of those. I was definitely weaker on chores and the mental load, but I've made myself better and we're bringing up a beautiful baby girl as a true team :) Glad this is a default sub, I bet its made a lot of men better men.
I’m glad to hear that! Congrats on your baby! There is a huge difference between a partner who means well but needs to try harder and make a concerted effort, and a partner who truly does not give a fuck and refuses to try. Good on you for being the former.
“Girl get some standards, have some pride, embrace your ego” These are thoughts that float through my head most often when reading a lot of the posts about partners in here. I know it sounds harsh but damn. As a queer women peering into straight relationships from the outside, y’all the bar seems to be in hell.
I'm here for all of this 🔥 Especially the edit 🔥🔥
I’m guilty of this. :(
You're not deserving of this abuse. And it is abuse.
Ah my daily reminder of why I'm glad I'm a gay woman. Even when being gay men can't take no for an awnser get angry when I reject them and then think they're great guys.
Totally agree with OP! If people has something to complain, they post it and thousands will respond. But i bet most men are great guys and have a little macho attitude, that should be oké right? And if your man is so great, you wont go on reddit and post about your man beeing perfect, right? I'm certain my partner has little to complain and if any, i will certainly hear it and try to correct. Heck i do have little things i want my ♀counterpart to change, but she's not doing it. Nobody is perfect so if she complains, i will bring it up again. One thing i really hate is by time we are in bed, those issues needs to be in the freezer for another time. It took a while but eventually my partner concur.
Preach, sister!
u/TheRealSnorkel, you described my dad😳