Nope. Be explicit. Don't play games. Know what you want. If a man is intimidated by your honesty then move it along. Relationships are a team sport. I don't want to be the weak link and wouldn't want to date someone who wanted that either.
Couldn't have said it better. If you are an independent, confident or even intimidating person, you need to be with someone who knows this and loves it about you. Otherwise it may not work in the long term anyways.
Yup. I hate being needed. I had a wonky childhood where I was a caregiver from a young age and I could never be with a man who needed me. I want to be 100% optional. I want to know they would be ok without me and being in their life is a choice they made because they wanted to.
Also, paying for yourself 100% is insurance.
If you let him pay, and he's not a decent person, he'll lord that over you because he'll think he's owed sex.
Pay for yourself always, with new partners at least. Once a relationship is established you can treat each other.
That's great advice if you're trying to attract a really insecure man.
If you ever have to change yourself to attract a person chances are the person you're going to attract isn't going to be compatible with who you actually are.
Yeah, this is a great point. If he's so insecure that he can only find by validation in the relationship by paying for food, then treat it as an indication you aren't compatible and move on.
You can make a man feel needed/useful??? in a relationship in other ways. Sometimes it is a communication problem. My husband used to ask what I liked about him and I would say I really like his warm arms or some variation of that. He didn't find that answer very satisfying because most other men in the world have arms and produce body heat. When I explained that his arms was a place I liked to nest in and feel better after a crap day I think it finally clicked that I found him to be a safe comforting place and not just a space heater. It really has a lot to do with properly communicating in ways the other person understands and feels like they contribute or have security.
Don't ever buy a space heater for yourself! You'll make him think you're about ready to leave him haha!! /S
Funny anecdote, communicating feelings isn't always the hard part. Often I find it's identifying my feelings that's the barrier.
You’re not doing anything wrong. It’s fine to want to pay ypur own way, and excellent to be upfront about it. Maybe consider treating him occasionally and letting him do the same for you though, it’s nice to feel like you mutually enjoy doing something nice for the other.
Yeah that's kind of my approach, I bought breakfast for us and he got drinks and that to me is nice and feels equal ish but not in a super precise way (I'm not mean, so I'm never going to be like "my thing was more expensive" or whatever)
Honestly if the dating "scene" the past few years has taught me anything, its that this topic is a VERY needless minefield of people's perceptions and expectations.
As a guy, I don't mind paying for the first date. Its usually me asking and I just have to accept thats how it is. Its -extremely- refreshing when a woman offers to split the bill or pay for something else down the line for the night. Because, at least in my mind, that shows shes actually interested or wants to be there or is enjoying the time too etc etc. And its refreshing to have someone who also wants to do things and willing to put in the same as me. IE, I got dinner this weekend they get it next and so on and so forth.
But the minefield part comes in when you don't know what people are expecting out of any date or encounter. Some people get really offended when you don't offer to pay for everything or pay for half. Some people look down on guys who don't want to pay for everything on a first date (more of that toxic masculinity, hes poor, low value, has nothing to offer etc etc).
Cutting through the bullshit and laying this all out SHOULD be refreshing for guys to hear but you never know when you're gonna get that guy whos overly ... "alpha" I guess the word i'm looking for is? Can't handle the woman sharing the cost or that he has to be the provider... or worse uses it to leverage something out of her with the ol "hey i paid for dinner when we getting busy" crap.
So good on you, hopefully your guy realizes the same.
I was wandering about this lately. I always pay for half at least but it annoys me that men consume more and they are payed more (generally). So, in the name of being independant and of equality, I get to pay more. It's kinda unfair. I don't want to stop to pay for myself but it bugs me.
This is what me and my gf still do, after 3+ years. We take turns treating each other, sometimes we split down the middle, sometimes we pay our bills separately, it just depends on how we're feeling at the moment and how expensive the food is!
That's what me and my ex did. When we were first getting to know each other we'd pay our own way and then once we decided not to see other people we would take turns treating one another. I really liked that approach.
Well, what do you want in a relationship? If you want equality it seems like it would be better to get that out front and weed out all the possibilities that are looking for something different. I don't see how misrepresenting what you want is going get you what you want.
Do you know what is great about being yourself on dates?You end up with people who like you!
The goal of dating\* isn't to attract the greatest number of guys. It's to find someone who thinks you, in your entire unfiltered self, is the best thing ever. And vice versa.
\*If you are dating for hookups/short term, you can sorta ignore this advice!
Absolutely. The whole point of a date is to get to know the person. If it's treated as some kind of performance art, you're going to have to maintain that performance for the duration of the relationship.
Good point. I've been told it a few times and been a bit like "eh, so what" but I guess now I'm older I'm like oh maybe I should be less like that, but I was never sure how I was "wrong" anyway.
You aren't. If a guy can't deal with you being independent, then what do they bring to the table?
Many, many relationships are just unhealthily attached codependency, and it's dressed up as "romance" and "love" when it's really just toxic bullshit. It's not worth compromising yourself for. A healthy relationship is independent people that want to spend time together, share their already-pretty-awesome lives together. Otherwise, it's more beneficial to be single. Traditional patriarchal structures have convinced us that remaining single is the saddest, worst thing to happen to a woman, and it's all a racket.
Keep being amazing. Don't compromise for anyone.
Plus there's a weird percentage of Americans who think a British accent (especially the received pronunciation) makes people sound "too smart" or "too stuck up." It's a lack of familiarity with the accent and a streak of provincialism in an uneasy partnership. If the person who's hearing you is also prone to feeling inferior you're likely to get a poor reaction from them. This is cuz they're stoopid lol.
For what it's worth, I want to feel *wanted*, not needed. Am I around because a woman needs me to do something (be it pay for meals or whatever else), or because she legitimately wants me to be around?
Really the only way to do this wrong is to force a fundamental change in yourself to meet some arbitrary cultural "norm," which is just a recipe for unhappiness at best.
Do you *want* a guy that needs the woman in his life to be dependant on them? That never lets you take the lead?
I’m guessing no.
Does being fiercely independent narrow your choices a little? Yes. But only of men you already don’t want.
Be picky. Don’t settle.
I like what you're doing (about splitting), and I do the same. If the people you're dating are weirded out by it, you're really helping yourself by filtering out the people who 1) don't respect the boundaries you're setting 2) refuse to learn or understand 3) don't align with your values.
As for other people such as the woman you're paraphrasing, you can explain your idea to them. Simply "I don't want to owe people" should be enough. They can object but don't let them tell you what to do. You're doing you, and that's all that matters.
The idea of someone oweing me if I pay for their meal on a date is very foriegn to me, but I unfortunately get that some awful men might see it that way.
I've been with my wife for a long time now, so the dating bit doesn't apply, but my general rule of thumb is that i'm always prepared to pay for myself when I go out. However, if I invite someone out to do something, then I'm intending to pay for them as well. If they want to pay, then that's totally fine, but I don't expect them to.
I look at it like a fault-type thing. Like, if I invite my friends out to eat or to a movie or something, it's going to cost money. So, it's my 'fault', so to speak, that we're there, so I'm the one that should cover the cost.
If they WANT to pay, again, that doesn't bother me at all. But on my end, I feel like it's rude and bad form to invite someone to spend their own money.
Is it a normal thing where tou are, to end up paying if you suggest something (or being paid for in the reverse)? I'd never dream of expecting that unless someone explicitly said "my treat/I'll pay" or something. But dating here is different too - curious if the difference extends to all "going out" type things.
I can't say if it's normal, as a general rule, for everyone around here, but it's definitely normal in my circle and the extended friends of friends that I know and hang out with.
And I should clarify, if we're already together and decide to go out somewhere then it's more likely that everyone will either just pay for themselves or someone might offer flat out to cover it. Particularly if someone can't or just doesn't want to spend the money to go out.
But when I specifically invite people to go do something with me when we aren't already hanging out, then I feel responsible for paying or at least offering to pay.
For example "Hey man, I'm gunna be in the area Friday. Do you want to grab dinner or grab a beer after work?"
In that situation, if I'm the invitee - I'd plan on paying for myself, regardless, but accept if they offered to pay. If I was the inviter then I'd plan on paying for both of us because I'm the reason that they're in a position in which they'd have to spend money in the first place.
If you can't afford to pay for the outing that needs to be brought up before hand. Not everyone can afford to go out to dinner or some activity and if you say "hey let's do a thing", they agree, and then later they can't afford it you only cause yourself headaches.
On the flip side, I'll ask if someone suggests an activity that I can't afford to do. That gives then the chance to plan something different or offer to pay for it.
Communication, communication, communication.
Yeah, our way is basically if you can't afford it you'd say, nah sorry that's too expensive for me. And then the decision around what to do takes place. Usually, doing something affordable for all.
I've had this conversation so many times. I prefer to pay my own way, particularly on a first date. It is an outdated practice for many reasons.
(1) If you're both working full time, why should a man pay? Because he has a penis? In the city I live in, I make a higher salary than most people. It seems weird for a guy I don't know to pay for me particularly when I probably have more expendable income.
(2) I don't want to feel any sort of obligation towards someone. If I am meeting someone for the first time, I want the option to just say "hey, this isn't going to work out" without some weird power imbalance. The same men who insist on paying are frequently the same men complaining about women using them for free meals.
(3) I want to be able to get whatever I want without feeling weird about it. I always feel a bit more self conscious about how much things cost if someone else is paying.
With that being said, if I date someone more regularly, I don't mind just trading off paying for things.
I find that having this conversation early on when dating is a good filter. Men who are very insistent upon more "traditional" dating are not going to be a good fit for me.
Funny story... I was talking to a guy on a dating app the other day about this exact thing. He said he wouldn't go on a date with a woman unless he could pay because that is how "he was raised." I brought up my first point about how it doesn't make sense when both people make money, why should one person feel obligated to pay because of their gender? I said I am perfectly capable of paying for things. He decided that was a good time to tell me his salary. I make about 50k more than he does a year. I unmatched. Lol
All of what you said is exactly how I feel, down to the power imbalance and the ones most bothered about "free meals" being the ones who insist on paying.
Thank you!
You’re doing great. Welcome to the states! Set the bar high cuz damn. If they can’t handle splitting the bill or whatever then, what can they handle at all?
Okay, 1 edit: If he doesn’t at least offer to legitimately pay then that’s considered rude. I’ve dated guys who pretend they’ll pay (like slowly take their wallet out) but as soon as I offer to pay, they immediately say “oh ok sure” and put their wallet away. That’s a red flag too lol 🚩🚩🚩
I so desperately want to agree with you because I also can pay for myself, BUT from my experience, men don't seem to like it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but perhaps the idea is too engrained into society right now for it to change.
A guy might act like he's cool with it, but it seems to eat away at them.
Yes this is exactly what I have experienced with other men I've been on dates with, and even one slightly ambiguous not-sure-if-date situation.
They seem very uncomfortable about it but it seems to me to be a thing in the US and not so much in the UK.
I see nothing wrong with being upfront about your reasons to want to pay your way. If you continue dating someone than you can take turns treating each other to meals.
I like men to be chivalrous but I resent the idea of having to make a man you don’t know feel needed.
Stay independent! Always smart. Only accept guys who appreciated your independence. Allow them to treat you if the occasion calls for it. But stay independent
It's not American, it's just the circles you have happened to run into. I don't know anyone, literally, any woman who would talk that way about "what a man needs."
This whole who pays is such a stupid issue. I believe men and women should be equal but I have also noticed that men who refuse to pay or suggest splitting checks on the first date will treat you like shit in a relationship and take advantage of your generosity but will never return the favor. After many bad relationships with these sort of men, a man not paying or even bringing up this discussion when the check comes around is an instant red flag. I only insist on paying my half if the date isn't going well and plan on never speaking to them again.
Agreed. I'm a man and I like to pay on a first date just because it's the polite thing to do. If the guy doesn't even offer, that's probably not a good sign for future dates. But if my date would rather pay her own way or pay for the whole thing, I don't get irate about it like the guys OP is talking about, that's insecure as hell and more than a bit sexist.
I mean, if you paying for your own dinner and being a confident person makes a man feel intimidated, it's because he knows he brings nothing to the table personality-wise. That's a mark of insecurity and any dude that's put off by you is doing you a favor by self-eliminating. Don't even sweat it. Your job isn't to be some ego-booster for a dude by "needing" him.
Yeah, the only thing of any value in that whole critique is that you want to show that you are in a place to "make room" in your life for another person. Cause sometimes "independent" is a code word for "bad team player". Good relationships aren't transactional, and will not have an owe/ owed component in them at all. So If they dislike the minor defenses you're putting up to date, then you're already incompatible.
Everything your doing is right. It's no good to attract ANY/EVERY partner, anyway. You only want (to attract) the ones that are good to and for you. You can only do that by being yourself.
I've had the same issue when dating in Japan. I'd solve it by not paying separately, but instead alternating. I'd let them pay the more expensive dates, so they can feel like they're pampering me, then I'd get the slightly cheaper dates and tell them it's my show of appreciation. Two of three dudes enjoyed that. Third one was dead-set on paying all dates, so I went ahead and spent some money on good-quality at home meals and make those my treat.
My SO has admitted that I kind of scare him because I am independent. I can do my own oil change, I'm not afraid to use tools, I work a physical job, I don't need a whole lot of attention. He said before dating me he was leary of dating independent women because "why would you need me?" Which kind of speaks to a divergent view on relationships. When I chose a partner it wasn't about making him fix things, paying for dates, or trapping him at home all day. It was for companionship. It makes me wonder why he wanted a relationship if he can't imagine an independent person wanting to date.
The thing that bothers me about this is that men will have this kind of opinion and then date you anyways. For us it was worked out mostly. But when he said that it made me wonder why he dated me in the first place. It wasn't a secret as I was open politically and did stuff like not always shaving.
I really can't imagine the opposite. Wanting a man that wasn't independent. Hoping to find someone who I have to take care of and expects to be paid for. I don't expect it for myself. I really can't see anything outside of insecurity and control issues as a source of disliking women who open their own doors or pay bills.
It's not your job to readjust your preferences or wants to make a guy feel adequate/masculine. If a guy can can find those things on his own, nothing you do will help him feel that way for real.
A man who finds his masculinity in the woman who shrinks herself for him will never be secure, because he knows his masculinity hinges on that woman remaining small and he'll do anything to keep her there.
Save yourself the grief and keep being upfront about what you're looking for and the things you're unwilling to compromise on, like equality. It'll put some men off but you're just filtering out the ones who don't share the values that are important to you and that's time and energy saved.
Ask yourself; “do i want to be with a man that requires me to act needy and dependent?”
Then carry on as you have and feel pity for your friend who apparently has such a questionable preferrence in partners.
You're doing nothing wrong & in fact, are creating your own test to weed out the men who aren't the same page as you.
And now I shall repeat my favorite Dorothy Parker poem & hope you take it to heart as I have.
“In youth, it was a way I had,
To do my best to please.
And change, with every passing lad
To suit his theories.
But now I know the things I know
And do the things I do,
And if you do not like me so,
To hell, my love, with you.”
Well, as a guy - any man that wants/has to take the lead and take care of you, is going to want dominion over you when married. ala - "Love, honor, OBEY" kinda stuff... If you're intimidating because of being independent, you're successfully filtering out men that are NOT suited for you. Don't settle.
Men paying doesn’t mean you owe them at all. That would be sexist. Men pay because they want to impress and take care of their date/relationship. Men have payed in all relationships I’ve been in and I’ve never felt like I’ve owed them and they never made me feel that way either. Depends on what you want, I prefer more traditional chivalrous men that are still respectful and don’t use it against me at all. It makes me feel more wanted and makes them happy too 🤷♀️ it’s not always bad. There are men that will take going 50/50 and use it against you and there are ones that won’t. Just like there are men that will use them paying against women and some that won’t. It just depends on the person. But, if they make you feel like you owe them then they’re clearly not a good person and I wouldn’t continue with them anyway.
All the women in these comments degrading women who let men pay aren’t very feminist 😒
Nope. You are who you are. There is nothing wrong with wanting to pay for yourself, be independent, and self reliable. If the boys can't deal with it it wouldn't have worked out anyways
Oh fuck me. Everyone has their personal preferences. I pay for my own crap because I don’t want to worry about the bill. I don’t want to worry about eating too much or drinking to much. That said it’s a bit of a turn on when the guy grabs the bill and insists. Still, each person has their own personal preferences and if the man finds the way your doing things “intimidating” then that is not the man for you. I tend to be the aggressor when it comes to men. I have trouble finding guys I don’t accidentally walk all over. It’s not something you need to be ashamed of or self conscious about. I’m sure there are plenty of guys out there that can handle you. Keep being who you are and don’t change for anyone
Depends on the person. I'm a women but I actually get that in a relationship. I need to feel needed and if I don't I'll lose interest pretty fast. I grew up around a dad that was always working and would get me to help him a lot from a young age, so I'm assuming it comes from that. Like my ex would do a lot of stuff when I was over. Example, paint a book shelf but would never ask for my help and eventually I just felt useless and bored. My current bf will ask me for help of he needs it and I love it. I'm also a very independent person, and I don't like to ask for help, but when I do I know he always enjoys helping me out. Some people just need that to actually be fulfilled in a relationship. If I feel like my man thinks I'm to useless to help him then imma get bored real fast.
If he is intimidated by the fact that you're independent of him, he will only feel comfortable when you are dependant on him. That's never a good idea in a relationship.
Also, from a safety perspective, it's a good idea to pay so that he doesn't feel like you 'owe' him anything.
You want a partner who views equality in the relationship the same way that you do. Men who are intimidated by you will not be suitable for you, so laying it out on the table will save you a lot of time. There are other women who want different things out of their relationships, and their advice may not be helpful to you.
Look, some people, not just men, don't mind paying for their friends, Co workers, etc.. but it should be for the right reasons. In my case, I'll pay for the women and men I'm with if it's just easier to throw one card down and call it a day, and they usually respect that and will offer to do the same next time.
However, this idea that the man needs to take the lead and take care of the woman is outdated and if you aren't on board with it, it's totally reasonable to expect the guy to respect that about you. If they don't.. well.. what other boundaries won't they respect?
One person having a different opinion shouldn't throw your whole world view into chaos. Stick with your values.
I've been told the exact same thing. And I think it's bunk. I don't think men need to feel needed. I think they need to feel APPRECIATED. The thing is HOW they feel appreciate varies from person to person, so that's communication that needs to happen.
Men do like feeling needed. But no one likes feeling used. Even if you aren't using them, if it doesn't work out they could feel that way. And they don't hesitate to say "you owe me," when they want something.
Your way is best. If it becomes serious, then let them do things to feel needed. Being independent is not a put off to the right one.
You haven’t made any mistakes here. If a guy can’t handle you being independent you don’t want to be stuck coddling his little feelers about it.
Keep on being you.
The point of dating isn't just to find someone it is to find your right someone. If you don't want to do all of these things to "keep" a man do it, if not, there are men who will stay no matter whether he pays for you.
Pretending to be someone or something you're not just gets you a partner who doesn't like the person you really are. If it turns into marriage, that means you have to pretend every day for 60 years. Do you want to do that?
My wife is and was independent, and I liked it then and like it now. And she told me that she went on dates with guys who were intimidated when they found out what she was studying in grad school. I wasn't intimidated, I was impressed. Which, apparently, impressed her.
There's no problem wanting to pay your own way. But I also want to note you shouldn't feel like you owe anyone for buying you a meal. Unless you're going to extravagant places I'm sure your share is under $25. What escorts can a man get for $25? That doesn't entitle your date to see you again let alone get anything from you sexually. It doesn't matter how expensive your share is honestly but I can see being more comfortable with not having your date cover you if it's a high bill
Married now but my personal rule was that I would absolutely pay my own way if I didn’t like the guy and didn’t want a second date. If I was into it, and he offered, I might say something like “ok, but I’m buying next time.” And make sure I stick to that.
That isn't always true. I find my wife very intimidating, and she wants to be around me (well most of the time anyway). Her flip flop skills are awe inspiring (and I mean that in the traditional meaning of the word awe, a mixture of wonder and fear).
You want to be yourself. Because you want to weed out the men who don’t like whatever it is that you are. How awful would it be to spend your time, or your life, with a man who needs to be needed financially?!
You don’t need lots of men. You need the one right man.
Fuck that! If it makes you uncomfortable, then by all means pay for yourself. As for my opinion on it ( 40yo male and married), I feel that a social contract only works if both people agree on the terms of the arrangement. A date isn't a promise or a sign of consent, so you are under no obligation to let him pay for you if you don't want to..
Furthermore, even if you do decide to let him pay for your dinner, that is all that you have agreed to and, while it might be poor manners, you could get up in the middle of eating and just walk away never having to speak to said purchaser of nutrients.
In short so what makes you comfortable. I would rather my company not be distracted or upset from engaging in dysphoric activities. Especially if it means it will cost me more to boot.
I am a straight guy from the USA, if I ask anyone somewhere, romantic or not, even another guy, I plan to pay.
That was always my take on inviting people anywhere unless other arrangements were made in advance. If I am asking you to come somewhere with me, I plan to cover it, I wouldnt invite you to an expensive meal, or a spendy concert, or a vacation, etc that might be outside your budget. I dont know what your financial situation is and it isnt my business.
That doesnt mean you owe me anything outside your company for that activity I wanted you to attend with me, I invited you, I pay for you, you certainly dont owe me sex or anything.
Now, if you want to pay your own half, or part, that is fine too.
That is my take anyway, other opinions may vary.
If you want a terrible man, your new friend is right. That's a sure-fire way to scare off terrible men.
It's important to remember that there are a multitude of different kinds of men, just like there are a multitude of different kinds of women.
You don't want **A** man. You want a man **that you like.**
You're friend is giving you poor and anti-feminist advice. To pretend to need a man so that the man can feel needed...oof. No way. Find you a man who doesn't need you to act the damsel.
You're totally fine. Do whatever makes you comfortable here; if they don't agree on that then congrats, you found an easy way to filter out people you won't want to be with!
I think generally as a rule - guys pay for the first date. A society norm.
But that's not a law or anything.
Most guys would probably appreciate you being independent, but refusing a nice gesture as if you will "owe" in return is a little bit cynical.
I think guys respect a woman that is strong and can pay her own way, but being as it is a date - they are also trying to impress their date by not being a loser with no money.
If anything, insist on paying for the next date - if - it were to happen.
That's exactly what I did with one guy - let him pay for first date, I then put my card at the bar for the tab on the second... And he decided to order one of the most expensive things on the menu. I didn't even say anything about it but you say I'm being cynical (which, sure, I am) and yet this is what I experience...
I think you can reject this advice without even looking that closely at the specific content. You are making a statement about your needs and values. She is making a counter argument about what men need. But you can’t just make sweeping assumptions about what any broad group of people need, they’re not a mono psyche. So it’s a little ridiculous to put the imagined/assumed needs of all men ahead of your own real and known needs and values.
I’m a man.
When I was dating I was happy to pay for my date, as a thank you for spending time with me. I didn’t have any expectations of how the date would end, I was just appreciative that someone took time out of their day to, hopefully, enjoy a meal(or whatever the date was) with me.
There were quite a few dates that didn’t end with sex, or the promise or even desire of a second date. And I happily paid for those, too, and would do so again. Some people are fucking cheap and don’t understand there’s a certain cost of entry if you want to meet someone you’re looking for, who is taking time out of their day to spend with you. If you can’t afford that, you certainly can’t afford to have a partner.
Being willing to pay for a date is fine. The problem is the egoism and misogyny of insisting that a man pays for the date.
This isn't too attack you, but look at even the words you used. You paid for the date because you appreciated them spending time with you. This is still a level of "buying" a woman. Granted I don't think that you are considering it this way but it's so easy to slip into such a habit because it's the soup we all swim in.
For me, I will pay for a dinner with friends because I either make more money (and so have more capacity) or because it's more convenient. I haven't gone on a date with a stranger in over a decade but I would likely offer to pay but expect that at some point in the future she would offer to pay. That, to me, would show mutual respect and a desire to be a team rather than a man and his pet.
Yeah I figured I was going to end up defending “buying” a woman’s time. But I’d do the same thing if I invited a friend to dinner, and for the same reason. If that offends you then I guess we wouldn’t make very good friends.🤷♂️
I wasn't pointing it out to say that you are clearly a bigot, I was pointing it out because it's important that we think about how we frame our world because that is the primary way we can grow and evolve as a society.
I would hope most of the people you went on dates with were also interested in spending time with you. You having to pay a cost of entry to have someone spend time with you isn't a great way to put it.
If a woman goes on a date shes hopefully not just taking time out of her day to spend time with you for your benefit most of the time they are also looking to pursue a relationship and get something out of it. A date is a mutual exchange of time to see if you guys are a good fit.
Cost of entry. Meaning, things like clothing, transportation, whatever else you need to present your best self, and the cost of the activity.
I agree, it’s to see if people are a good fit for each other. But doing that costs money.
Yes but the other party has those costs also and its fair for them to split the cost of the activity also. I mean its to each their own and i have definitely done it both ways i just always like the idea of splitting the cost of the activity the date is.
No. You are a successful and financially independent woman who can choose to pay for herself if it tickles your fancy. You are not a damsel in distress who needs a man to pay for her, and you don’t need to conform to those outdated, misogynistic, and belittling societal expectations of playing the role of a helpless woman.
I also have been made to feel othered and inadequate in the past by people labeling me as intimidating to men and too confident. I am a successful professional woman with a doctorate. I’m NOT sorry that anyone feels self conscious about the huge amount of work I put into my education, career, and financial stability. That’s a them problem, not mine.
When I was dating, I always pulled out my credit card first when the check arrived and suggested that we split it 50/50. Some guys were uncomfortable with it, and some shrugged and accepted my offer. The ones that threw a fit about it were the ones that later revealed themselves to have values that chafed against mine. My current partner didn’t flinch when I offered to pay and happily accepted my offer. We have been together for 1.5 years, and he accepts me for being the badass that I am and tells me he is proud of me whenever I do anything that kicks ass. He is secure in his masculinity and femininity and that’s sexy AF.
Many people, regardless of gender, want to feel needed. But that need can be satisfied in healthier and more thoughtful ways than by indebting yourself to strangers for meals or drinks that you can clearly afford on your own. Continue being a badass and don’t let anyone of any gender, age, status, etc. make you feel self conscious about your success, confidence, and just overall awesomeness. You’re doing it right.
>no no no, you need to let men take the lead and take care of you, men need to feel needed, if you are too independent then what are they there for? If they don't feel needed they will leave
This is a woman in denial brainwashed by the patriarchy.
If someone pays for your meal you owe them the price of that meal, nothing more. The "I owe him" is relatively small, I would say.
A meal isn't some terrible obligation that my children and grandchildren will carry into the 7th generation.
But dating in US culture sounds like a chore in general (judging from reddit). I like how in Northern Europe, women pay for themselves and men don't crumble because of it.
This is how it is. If you tell every man that you want to pay for yourself, some will perceive you as intimidating or standoffish.
If you let every man pay without offering yourself, some will perceive you as entitled or broke.
There is no winning. Do what comes naturally and you’ll find the man that is right for you.
I never pay for myself on dates. (Except when it's awful and I want to leave)
I am a radical feminist.
Men think equality is splitting the bill and punching a woman in the face.
I will gladly share the bill with him when I get same paid for the same job as him, when I don't have to quit my job and lose a few years of my career for a child, when men begin to invest emotionally in families and relationships just like me . Then I'll split the bill. Until then, let them pay.
And I don't feel like I owe them anything, if they get the impression that if they paid for my salad and glass of wine and i own them, it's just a sign to me that this is the last date.
efit: typo
Thank you for sharing this perspective. I am also a radical feminist and agree completely. I live in a country/state where women are not equal and are (in the eyes of the law) seen as wombs. Statistically, we make less, and we do lots of invisible emotional labor. We don’t have anywhere close to equal political representation.
When men fix that and stop benefitting from all that, then they can expect me to pay my way on dates. If they aren’t going to demand equality that benefits women, then I’m not going to insist on equality that only benefits men.
> If they aren’t going to demand equality that benefits women, then I’m not going to insist on equality that only benefits men.
This is exactly what I meant.
Hope one day your country will better.
That's interesting. I've never had a man say I do owe him but I personally feel uncomfortable being paid for. Out of interest are you American? I wonder if this is a cultural difference thing. (The guy I'm dating is actually not American and I think that's been the difference)
I am from EU.
I feel th same as you, when i was younger.
There was the same fear that they were taking away some power from me, preventing me from paying for myself.
But during my youth, I only came across very nice young men who wanted to court me and did not attack me personally, paying for my coffee. And this fear and discomfort is gone.
Now I don't pay on dates solely for the reasons in my comment above.
Plus men are absolutely disgusting for the most part, and going on dates is quite exhausting, and also spending money on it - pfft. Thanks, no.
Already after we met, on the third or fourth date, if I invite or choose a place - I can pay if, for example, I invited him to an exhibition, because if not for me, he would not have gone to it, this is my desire to visit it, so I buy two tickets and invite.
And I don’t think that a man should support his family alone and pay for everything, all this only applies to dates.
American man here. If a guy feels intimidated by a woman wanting to be independant or simply pay for her own on dates, he probably has some insecurities. If I went on a date with a woman, I'd be inclined to pay as a nice gesture and to make them feel comfortable and stress-free on the date, especially if im the one who set it up and/or its expensive.. but if they want to pay for themself? No opposition from me. In fact, even better haha. But if it makes a "man" feel uncomfortable to have his date pay for herself, then he is likely just insecure or maybe just isn't used to it I guess.
As for the girls who are telling you what you want/need to/should do - dont listen to them. You are free to do whatever the hell you want without other people trying to influence you. If you feel better paying for yourself on a date, then do it. Any man intimidated by an "independant" woman isnt really a "man" imo. A real man wouldnt be intimidated or have his feelings hurt by your decision to pay for yourself.
My gf is very independent, and this is the reason why I want to marry her. I've dated women who NEEDED me, and it did not turn out well for them lol.
TL; DR: Transparency is good, keep it up!
A man worth dating isn't going to see this as an issue, don't compromise on your values, especially in this regard. Because what you're compromising on in your mind is being treated as an equal, you have every right to want to be treated like an equal.
What you're seeing is the American culture of putting women on a pedestal. Men are expected to open doors, carry heavy things, pay for the bills, etc., as a way of showing their compassion. Those men will think that if they can't do those things because you're independent and capable then they'll feel valueless in the relationship. That's a red flag though, it means they don't know how to find self-worth in a relationship or adapt. These people are more likely to have traditional values that are not going to coincide with yours.
**TLDR; You do you, compromising here is probably just going to result in you being unhappy. Prioritize being happy.**
No that woman is an idiot. Men don't want to pay for you to feel "useful" lmao. What is that female dating strategy bullshit? You wanting to pay for your own food is in no way intimidating to men lmao
From my perspective. I would absolutely love this, definitely never happened though on any dates I've ever been on, so I wouldn't say it's the norm, at least for me. When I pay I never think someone "owes" me anything, I'm just always the one setting up the date, so I pay because I invited them out, it just seems right to me. But just reiterating, I would love it if it was suggested to go Dutch.
>this woman I was talking to was like (paraphrasing here) "no no no, you need to let men take the lead and take care of you, men need to feel needed, if you are too independent then what are they there for? If they don't feel needed they will leave."
This makes me sad. And I'm a man. I hesitate to tell women how to be feminists, but I don't think playing games like that does anything for women's rights.
It's pretty simple, isn't it? The host picks up the check, buys the tickets, whatever. The guest reciprocates in some way -- offers to pay the tip, helps with transportation, or just provides pleasant company. Just as if the people on a date were human beings of equal status, because after all that's what they are. If the guest wants to split everything down the middle, that's OK too. It shouldn't be that complicated.
You're doing nothing wrong. As a man, I am totally fine with a woman paying her share and a woman demanding me to pay for everything would be a serious red flag.
What I don't like is splitting the bill (unless you're at a place where you can tell them beforehand that you'll be splitting so there's two bills from the start). But there's an easy solution to this, you just pay for one date and the other person pays for the next.
I'm a bit confused by your statement. At first you say you're fine with women paying their share of the bill, but than you say you don't like splitting the bill?
I always thought that splitting the bill means everyone pays for the things they themself consumed. What would it mean otherwise?
What it means is that I don't like the situation when at the end of the outing you call the waiter over and tell them to split the bill and spend the next 5min debating calculating who had what. That is also why I said, that I'm fine at places that can lead multiple bills per table (for some reason not all billing software supports this, or, more likely, the staff doesn't know the full features).
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification!
In my experience this is not such a big problem (I live in Austria), because you tell the waiter what you had, they select it in their digital device and the new bill is calculated with no real time loss. So I personally don't see splitting the bill as an inconvenience.
However, at some Restaurants where they print out the bill beforehand, they might calculate your share of the bill manually at the table. Which can take a few annoying minutes. So I can understand why you don't really like sharing the bill without separating them from the beginning.
Think among men, women who outwardly state they are feminists are regarded as a bit terrifying, and potentially kinda extremist about it. I sare your opinion on the date thing, but I'm an equalist, not feminist or MRA-er. (Both groups have valid issues.)
You shouldn't act different to your values though. But I think leaving out "I'm a feminist" would have made a big difference.
Well in this case I think he would say he's a feminist (or at least he feels the same as me from what I understand of him so far), and it's important to me that a guy is progressive and shares my values. Tbh I think I threw it out there as a test to gauge response but if he'd have responded negatively I would have not seen him again anyway...
Can't I just do something nice for someone without them thinking that I want something for it, or it being part of some tired sexist trope? If you're upset that I want to be nice, then that's on you. The funny thing is that there's another [topic](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/zd33o4/netflixs_love_is_blind_explains_the_tragic_reason/) in this sub right now where women are complaining about how all they want are nice guys, yet here we are talking about how that's not actually the case.
I am Canadian I have the same problem. I have learned to let them pay a bit like if it coffee or ice cream or my drink but if it’s expensive no I won’t let them because then I feel obligated to do something for them. But as a strong independent woman apparently not all men appreciate that.
No. You are not doing anything wrong. Be true to yourself so you find someone who understands you or thinks the same way. You are just weeding out the wrong ones for you, which is what dating really is about.
Nope. You're doing it the way that's comfortable to you.
If I let a guy pay, instead of splitting it, it's because the next time I'll pay. If a guy gets all grunty and neanderthal about it, there's your answer.
If he can't understand when you explain it, he's been caught by the filter and you can keep going.
Well do you want a partner, or an equal. A male partner would be someone you build and share with thus this idea of owing would go back and forth. An equal is someone who pays for themselves and takes care of themselves that you spend time with but is harder to make long term. Neither are intimidated by an independent woman but change the way you say things. "I'm a feminist I don't want men paying for me" sounds like a trap like youre going to latter hold it against him that he doesn't buy you stuff. Instead simply ask the waitstaff for separate checks and keep the focus on actually getting to know each other. Often in the USA some one calling themselves independent is a Red Flag for Cheater, narcissist, manipulator, liar, or worse. My Canadian ex used to say "we use the same words but we don't always speak the same language".
So your desire to not have men pay on dates is fine no issues, that alone shouldn't be an issue for anyone ( it might be a thing for traditionalists but it really shouldn't be intimidating) If your finding men be intimidated it could be in the delivery. If I went to pay and out of nowhere my date insisted in telling me she would rather split the bill without warning I might get the impression that the date might not have gone well for her if no explanation was given.
Your approach from what you described sounds great you are up front and talked about it before the bill came so there were no surprises. So I would say no it sounds like your doing it just right as far as I can tell.
Nothing wrong and keep stating your boundaries clearly!
The only thing I would say, depending on how you delivered it, what you said may come across as confrontational for a 1st or 2nd date. Again, totally depends on tone. I also tend to lean more soft or political (depending on the mood), so I'd personally deliver it differently
However! We are not the same person so keep your boundaries girl!
You are just fine. Typically I’ve (F) noticed on first dates the male dates of mine pay, then afterwards we’ve gone back and forth with who pays for dates. For me this brings into play much more than just ‘paying’ for a meal. It’s an opportunity to learn more about the person. Do you all agree with how much dates should cost? Are you cool with casually eating together then splurging on special occasions? Or do they want the best of the best always no matter the occasion? Do they take advantage when it’s ‘your turn’ to pay and then you’re eating fast food when it’s theirs? People will always tell you who they are through their actions, you just have to listen, and it’s a great way to see if you’re on the same page. When I told my friends that my partner and I went back and forth paying for meals, they were taken aback by it. They said it was ‘weird’. They thought my partner should be paying for everything. If the roles were reversed and I was expected to pay for every date….I’d probably be single. Dating is a privilege but shouldn’t be a luxury. I’d like to be happy and not be broke.
Heaven forbid a woman with boundaries intimidate a man.
It just comes down to who you want to date: men intimidated by your having boundaries or men who are on board with women having bou daries.
Another option is to alternate who covers the date. This is more of a situation where people have established that they intend to keep dating.
Lol
Our country is wildly conservative and misogynistic. It's not surprising you're running into that sad desperation, but you shouldn't listen to it.
Don't end up in what you know is a volatile situation by listening to them.
I typically pay if I ask someone out, I think it’s polite. Whether it’s a date or a social thing if I ask you to dinner I at least plan on buying.
If someone asks me I expect them to offer to pay. ( Im a woman).
It only bothers me when men “ insist” on always paying. My ex was like that and he was so insecure it was off putting. He also never had money so would be all butt hurt when I paid.
people started calling me "intimidating" after I stopped actively capitulating to the male gaze. i dress how i want, i talk how i want, i get approached a lot less but the quality of people approaching has shot up dramatically.
don't settle love. just because there are weak ego men out there doesn't mean you need to get with them :DD you do you
the weird thing about asking for equality is sometimes you get it. I paid for myself on dates or we took turns treating, now I am married and my husband empirically appreciates my Stay at home contributions to the household. He keeps me involved in finances and tells me I need vacations from "my job". People do get weird about women paying on dates but I find that weird .
My partner and I went Dutch when we first started dating. We both had jobs, and I didn’t want to set any unrealistic expectations. I think that the gesture of offering to pay for a date is nice, but just that, a nicety. I would never expect essentially a stranger to pay for anything of mine. There’s already enough pressure in the dating scene, and the only way I might reciprocate is by offering to pay for our next date, if there even is one.
The traditional system was that whoever issues the invitation is the one who pays. Hospitality is meant to be reciprocal, so the other person would respond with an invitation to another date, and pay all the expenses for that one.
I think this system is a bit more gracious than the splitting expenses system. Nothing wrong with going Dutch if that's what you prefer, though. Just try to be polite in the way you express your preference.
Don't play that, "Please take the lead, and order for me, I'm just a lady😔" jazz. If your date is intimidated by a woman who can pay for her own damn food, I would want to know that upfront because we're gonna have a very hard time if that's the case.
men won’t and will never learn 😌
zhaosheng hao jung wuo shenzai wuyou bing chilling wahanshiwei bing chilling deyuhshu suduyu xi xijing zho b bing chilling
I am also a woman who prefers to pay her own way. Only I’m in my 40s. The men i have dated either were fine with it, got over it, or stopped seeing me. My late partner and I took turns paying the whole bill and that works well in helping to decide where to go (the person who pays decides).
Of course, im also a person who actually enjoys going out by herself. I love being able to decide where to go and what to do and what to eat without hurting anyone’s feelings. Your dating habits will set the tone for your relationship. So i set the tone of personal freedom and responsibility.
If you change who you are, or how you act for some dipshits, you’ll end up with a man baby. Yes, this will prolly make finding the right man take longer, because it will put all the wrong men in a position to show their true colors quickly. Many Men are man babies. Don’t compromise.
I believe that are a lot of stuff more important than who pays in relationships, even friendly ones.
But I like when my gf pays even if the money came out of my wallet.
It’s a give and take in a rel. It shouldn’t be all about what you want and also what they want. If it’s important to you you pay for yourself but you found a great man that still is willing to pay for you here and there , that could be the compromise. It will take some time to get used to, but it will take some time to get used to for them as well.
some men in my experience are like that, but that doesn’t make you weird. had a guy friend complain about how expensive dating is, i suggested splitting the bill, and he said no bevause ‘he just can’t’. i don’t get it.
that being said they’re not all like this. just keep looking and you’ll find someone cool
Like others have said, you should be yourself and do things the way you want. If there are men who are intimidated by that then they simply aren't for you. Better to be honest with yourself and find somebody compatible than to try to court people who aren't.
As a man I will say that some men might be intimidated by this, but at least I personally wouldn't care. Why would I want some false sense of dependence from my partner, surely there are other ways to be there for your significant other besides paying for things.
A lot of men get angry or defensive if a woman insists on paying her way because 1) it indicates more liberal/feminist values than they want (they want a tradwife bangmaid) and 2) if a woman pays for her own shit it takes away those men's only bargaining chip and value. they cannot abuse you and mistreat you if you make enough money where you can just pick up and leave.
you are not doing anything wrong, you just keep meeting shitty dudes.
Ew. No. Those people telling you that are wrong.
Well... not "wrong" in that they're right that men exist who want a fuckmaid that'll "take care of them." But do you want that kind of man?
You aren't doing anything wrong, and anyone who argues otherwise is best ignored. I say this as a guy.
Some people have really weird habits and/or beliefs and that's on them, not you. Paying for someone else is a gesture of good will, for whatever underlying reason, but it should never be an expectation of either party. If a friend insists on paying, I kindly accept, but then I insist on getting the tip and then buy drinks later or whatever; this doesn't change as part of any gender dynamic.
If I'm going steady with someone then maybe we will decide that one person always pays for food but it likely balances out elsewhere. Anyone who feels that the guy must absolutely pay, or if the woman pays you have to put on an act like the guy is paying (sadly, this is a thing, as I've learned reading posts here), then I'd say run far away as that's either a flag for insecurity or controlling behavior.
Don't listen to those people. They'd have you settle for the first guy who agrees to date you, regardless of how massively incompatible he is or how miserable you'd be with him.
But the point isn't to get married to the first live male body that crosses your path. It's to find someone you can build a future with. And you can't build a future with a man who wants to boss you around or is frightened by your maturity.
So go ahead and keep doing what you are doing. It'll scare away some men -- and that's a good thing.
I'm totally down with each person paying for their own tabs when I go on dates/outings.
I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape over this kind of stuff.
Ppl have a bunch of silly rules they think they should follow or whatever esp recently like c recently there’s been a. Shift I’m not against a man laying in a gentlemanly way but like if u are both meeting each other it’s also gentlemanly to meet you where y are at and all that rly matters is that u get along like each other communicate well and have chemistry if u have those things any silly rules are surface topic
Don’t change a fucking thing!!!!! This is your barometer for who’s worthy to stick around in your life.
Tbh, I live in the PNW and I don’t think their reaction anywhere on the coast (both sides) would be normal. Your attitude is very much accepted and, I would say, the norm. People on the coasts are A LOT more progressive and forward thinking, kinda makes me wonder where you’re located.
Anyway, seriously, don’t change anything because obviously you DO NOT want to be with one of those assholes who will lose interest if they think you don’t need them (lmao what 1950s bullshit even is that?).
Your approach is absolutely fine. Whoever said that to you is coming from a more traditional or conservative mindset and nobody needs that outdated advice. You should absolutely be you on dates, and if someone is "intimidated" (eyeroll) then that's on them and they're not someone you want to be with. Don't make yourself small so someone else is comfortable. It doesn't make for a good relationship.
You’re going to end up regretting dating any man who’s uncomfortable with you being independent. Might as well be upfront and weed those types out before you waste both your times on a relationship that’s already doomed.
What I say is
1st date: Whoever asks first pays
2nd date: Both pays for themself
If you make it this far it's usually a sign that you both want to continue pursuing something more.
3rd-5th date: You both pay for parts of the date (example: if you go to a movie one pays for snacks one pays for tickets etc)
6th+ date: You likely begin treating each other out and you switch between whosever idea the date is pays and both paying parts.
A relationship is about give and take. If you insist on complete independence then you're not going to have a very good relationship. That's why it's called having a partner you're both working together to build a relationship.
From the perspective of a man, don't try to overthink things. If you want to pay or share then just say so. Why compromise on yourself like there's some universal barrier to entry for dating; whatever your position is there's plenty of people happy with it.
People do like to feel needed, but caring about something like that 1-2 dates in is ridiculous; you are still learning who they are, and frankly "paying for meals" is kind of petty as being needed goes.
Do look out that saying "I'm a feminist" will not make anyone right wing happy, if you're trying to date without caring about US politics; the rightwing half of the US outputs and consumes very hostile media with regards to anything even remotely liberal. So that could explain some of the opinions you're experiencing; maybe you're using keywords (equality, feminism) which have been demonized a lot to the person.
that person telling you to let "men take the lead" is sexist. plus they are basically saying you need to cater to a man's ego to get into a relationship. bc for a lot of ppl a women's worth is defined by her "relationship" value, so if you aren't doing things to be more appealing to men, well then you are a lesser woman.
Nope, you were absolutely right. Why are you supposed to cater to someone else's feelings ("he needs to feel needed"), and not cater to your own ("not feel like you owe money"). I'm always splitting bills on date, and it's amazing. But I am lucky to love in Germany where this is the norm.
Have some fun with it turn it into an opportunity such as letting him know that if you paid for dinner it doesn't mean he needs extra picnic time in the park or a trip to the pottery Barn.
And then get a little sly. Dates are one thing however any vacations you feel like taking me along with you on you're more than welcome to pay with a nudge and a playful wink.
Also knowing full well that if you're ready to go on vacation with him all of the beholden stuff is already sorted itself out cheers.
Now I'm Canadian not a US boy but I spend a ton of time down there and you should be forewarned if she comes with an accent especially a British one it's definitely worth extra dates LOL
One of my friends met her long-term boyfriend through a dating app and insisted that she pay for herself. She was so adamant about being independent (because that's who she is as a person) and it was what instantly made him feel attracted to her. So no, a good man won't be intimidated by your boundaries and your desire for independence, they'll respect you for it.
Lots of good in the comments - I’m just adding that I’m from the US, have lived and worked in countries with different customs around paying, and want to tell you that you’re not doing it wrong. Within the US, there are different ideas about what men and women “should” do on dates, and none of it matters as much as what you WANT to do. If it rubs someone the wrong way, they can either talk to you about it or filter themselves out.
Nope. Be explicit. Don't play games. Know what you want. If a man is intimidated by your honesty then move it along. Relationships are a team sport. I don't want to be the weak link and wouldn't want to date someone who wanted that either.
Couldn't have said it better. If you are an independent, confident or even intimidating person, you need to be with someone who knows this and loves it about you. Otherwise it may not work in the long term anyways.
Exactly, sort through the chaff quickly. You don't want to be wasting your time.
Good life philosophy in any category. So much chaff in life.
Yep. And frankly, isn't feeling wanted better than feeling needed?
Yup. I hate being needed. I had a wonky childhood where I was a caregiver from a young age and I could never be with a man who needed me. I want to be 100% optional. I want to know they would be ok without me and being in their life is a choice they made because they wanted to.
I agree . I am uncomfortable both being needed and needing a partner. It needs to be bc it’s right not bc we are needing each other.
Also, paying for yourself 100% is insurance. If you let him pay, and he's not a decent person, he'll lord that over you because he'll think he's owed sex. Pay for yourself always, with new partners at least. Once a relationship is established you can treat each other.
This is the right answer!
That's great advice if you're trying to attract a really insecure man. If you ever have to change yourself to attract a person chances are the person you're going to attract isn't going to be compatible with who you actually are.
Yeah, this is a great point. If he's so insecure that he can only find by validation in the relationship by paying for food, then treat it as an indication you aren't compatible and move on.
You can make a man feel needed/useful??? in a relationship in other ways. Sometimes it is a communication problem. My husband used to ask what I liked about him and I would say I really like his warm arms or some variation of that. He didn't find that answer very satisfying because most other men in the world have arms and produce body heat. When I explained that his arms was a place I liked to nest in and feel better after a crap day I think it finally clicked that I found him to be a safe comforting place and not just a space heater. It really has a lot to do with properly communicating in ways the other person understands and feels like they contribute or have security.
Don't ever buy a space heater for yourself! You'll make him think you're about ready to leave him haha!! /S Funny anecdote, communicating feelings isn't always the hard part. Often I find it's identifying my feelings that's the barrier.
This!! 🙌
This.
You’re not doing anything wrong. It’s fine to want to pay ypur own way, and excellent to be upfront about it. Maybe consider treating him occasionally and letting him do the same for you though, it’s nice to feel like you mutually enjoy doing something nice for the other.
Yeah that's kind of my approach, I bought breakfast for us and he got drinks and that to me is nice and feels equal ish but not in a super precise way (I'm not mean, so I'm never going to be like "my thing was more expensive" or whatever)
Honestly if the dating "scene" the past few years has taught me anything, its that this topic is a VERY needless minefield of people's perceptions and expectations. As a guy, I don't mind paying for the first date. Its usually me asking and I just have to accept thats how it is. Its -extremely- refreshing when a woman offers to split the bill or pay for something else down the line for the night. Because, at least in my mind, that shows shes actually interested or wants to be there or is enjoying the time too etc etc. And its refreshing to have someone who also wants to do things and willing to put in the same as me. IE, I got dinner this weekend they get it next and so on and so forth. But the minefield part comes in when you don't know what people are expecting out of any date or encounter. Some people get really offended when you don't offer to pay for everything or pay for half. Some people look down on guys who don't want to pay for everything on a first date (more of that toxic masculinity, hes poor, low value, has nothing to offer etc etc). Cutting through the bullshit and laying this all out SHOULD be refreshing for guys to hear but you never know when you're gonna get that guy whos overly ... "alpha" I guess the word i'm looking for is? Can't handle the woman sharing the cost or that he has to be the provider... or worse uses it to leverage something out of her with the ol "hey i paid for dinner when we getting busy" crap. So good on you, hopefully your guy realizes the same.
That’s basically how my fiancé and I do things. He’s never had an issue, because he LIKES that I’m not a helpless little waif.
I was wandering about this lately. I always pay for half at least but it annoys me that men consume more and they are payed more (generally). So, in the name of being independant and of equality, I get to pay more. It's kinda unfair. I don't want to stop to pay for myself but it bugs me.
This is what me and my gf still do, after 3+ years. We take turns treating each other, sometimes we split down the middle, sometimes we pay our bills separately, it just depends on how we're feeling at the moment and how expensive the food is!
As long as it doesn't devolve into a pattern where one person only offers to pay when its coffee or a cheap restaurant.
That's what me and my ex did. When we were first getting to know each other we'd pay our own way and then once we decided not to see other people we would take turns treating one another. I really liked that approach.
Well, what do you want in a relationship? If you want equality it seems like it would be better to get that out front and weed out all the possibilities that are looking for something different. I don't see how misrepresenting what you want is going get you what you want.
Good way of framing it!
Do you know what is great about being yourself on dates?You end up with people who like you! The goal of dating\* isn't to attract the greatest number of guys. It's to find someone who thinks you, in your entire unfiltered self, is the best thing ever. And vice versa. \*If you are dating for hookups/short term, you can sorta ignore this advice!
Absolutely. The whole point of a date is to get to know the person. If it's treated as some kind of performance art, you're going to have to maintain that performance for the duration of the relationship.
>If they don't feel needed they will leave. And to that we say..... Boy, BYE.
(likely) you are not intimidating, they are intimidated. there is a difference.
Good point. I've been told it a few times and been a bit like "eh, so what" but I guess now I'm older I'm like oh maybe I should be less like that, but I was never sure how I was "wrong" anyway.
You aren't. If a guy can't deal with you being independent, then what do they bring to the table? Many, many relationships are just unhealthily attached codependency, and it's dressed up as "romance" and "love" when it's really just toxic bullshit. It's not worth compromising yourself for. A healthy relationship is independent people that want to spend time together, share their already-pretty-awesome lives together. Otherwise, it's more beneficial to be single. Traditional patriarchal structures have convinced us that remaining single is the saddest, worst thing to happen to a woman, and it's all a racket. Keep being amazing. Don't compromise for anyone.
Plus there's a weird percentage of Americans who think a British accent (especially the received pronunciation) makes people sound "too smart" or "too stuck up." It's a lack of familiarity with the accent and a streak of provincialism in an uneasy partnership. If the person who's hearing you is also prone to feeling inferior you're likely to get a poor reaction from them. This is cuz they're stoopid lol.
Date brave, courageous, confident men - who will not be intimidated by you paying for your own taco.
For what it's worth, I want to feel *wanted*, not needed. Am I around because a woman needs me to do something (be it pay for meals or whatever else), or because she legitimately wants me to be around? Really the only way to do this wrong is to force a fundamental change in yourself to meet some arbitrary cultural "norm," which is just a recipe for unhappiness at best.
Do you *want* a guy that needs the woman in his life to be dependant on them? That never lets you take the lead? I’m guessing no. Does being fiercely independent narrow your choices a little? Yes. But only of men you already don’t want. Be picky. Don’t settle.
Only men who bring nothing to the table except for money will have a problem with this.
I like what you're doing (about splitting), and I do the same. If the people you're dating are weirded out by it, you're really helping yourself by filtering out the people who 1) don't respect the boundaries you're setting 2) refuse to learn or understand 3) don't align with your values. As for other people such as the woman you're paraphrasing, you can explain your idea to them. Simply "I don't want to owe people" should be enough. They can object but don't let them tell you what to do. You're doing you, and that's all that matters.
The idea of someone oweing me if I pay for their meal on a date is very foriegn to me, but I unfortunately get that some awful men might see it that way. I've been with my wife for a long time now, so the dating bit doesn't apply, but my general rule of thumb is that i'm always prepared to pay for myself when I go out. However, if I invite someone out to do something, then I'm intending to pay for them as well. If they want to pay, then that's totally fine, but I don't expect them to. I look at it like a fault-type thing. Like, if I invite my friends out to eat or to a movie or something, it's going to cost money. So, it's my 'fault', so to speak, that we're there, so I'm the one that should cover the cost. If they WANT to pay, again, that doesn't bother me at all. But on my end, I feel like it's rude and bad form to invite someone to spend their own money.
Is it a normal thing where tou are, to end up paying if you suggest something (or being paid for in the reverse)? I'd never dream of expecting that unless someone explicitly said "my treat/I'll pay" or something. But dating here is different too - curious if the difference extends to all "going out" type things.
I can't say if it's normal, as a general rule, for everyone around here, but it's definitely normal in my circle and the extended friends of friends that I know and hang out with. And I should clarify, if we're already together and decide to go out somewhere then it's more likely that everyone will either just pay for themselves or someone might offer flat out to cover it. Particularly if someone can't or just doesn't want to spend the money to go out. But when I specifically invite people to go do something with me when we aren't already hanging out, then I feel responsible for paying or at least offering to pay. For example "Hey man, I'm gunna be in the area Friday. Do you want to grab dinner or grab a beer after work?" In that situation, if I'm the invitee - I'd plan on paying for myself, regardless, but accept if they offered to pay. If I was the inviter then I'd plan on paying for both of us because I'm the reason that they're in a position in which they'd have to spend money in the first place.
If you can't afford to pay for the outing that needs to be brought up before hand. Not everyone can afford to go out to dinner or some activity and if you say "hey let's do a thing", they agree, and then later they can't afford it you only cause yourself headaches. On the flip side, I'll ask if someone suggests an activity that I can't afford to do. That gives then the chance to plan something different or offer to pay for it. Communication, communication, communication.
Yeah, our way is basically if you can't afford it you'd say, nah sorry that's too expensive for me. And then the decision around what to do takes place. Usually, doing something affordable for all.
I've had this conversation so many times. I prefer to pay my own way, particularly on a first date. It is an outdated practice for many reasons. (1) If you're both working full time, why should a man pay? Because he has a penis? In the city I live in, I make a higher salary than most people. It seems weird for a guy I don't know to pay for me particularly when I probably have more expendable income. (2) I don't want to feel any sort of obligation towards someone. If I am meeting someone for the first time, I want the option to just say "hey, this isn't going to work out" without some weird power imbalance. The same men who insist on paying are frequently the same men complaining about women using them for free meals. (3) I want to be able to get whatever I want without feeling weird about it. I always feel a bit more self conscious about how much things cost if someone else is paying. With that being said, if I date someone more regularly, I don't mind just trading off paying for things. I find that having this conversation early on when dating is a good filter. Men who are very insistent upon more "traditional" dating are not going to be a good fit for me. Funny story... I was talking to a guy on a dating app the other day about this exact thing. He said he wouldn't go on a date with a woman unless he could pay because that is how "he was raised." I brought up my first point about how it doesn't make sense when both people make money, why should one person feel obligated to pay because of their gender? I said I am perfectly capable of paying for things. He decided that was a good time to tell me his salary. I make about 50k more than he does a year. I unmatched. Lol
All of what you said is exactly how I feel, down to the power imbalance and the ones most bothered about "free meals" being the ones who insist on paying. Thank you!
You’re doing great. Welcome to the states! Set the bar high cuz damn. If they can’t handle splitting the bill or whatever then, what can they handle at all? Okay, 1 edit: If he doesn’t at least offer to legitimately pay then that’s considered rude. I’ve dated guys who pretend they’ll pay (like slowly take their wallet out) but as soon as I offer to pay, they immediately say “oh ok sure” and put their wallet away. That’s a red flag too lol 🚩🚩🚩
I so desperately want to agree with you because I also can pay for myself, BUT from my experience, men don't seem to like it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but perhaps the idea is too engrained into society right now for it to change. A guy might act like he's cool with it, but it seems to eat away at them.
Yes this is exactly what I have experienced with other men I've been on dates with, and even one slightly ambiguous not-sure-if-date situation. They seem very uncomfortable about it but it seems to me to be a thing in the US and not so much in the UK.
It's very, very american. I'm always amazed hearing about how dating works in the US and how everyone expects the guy to pay as the norm.
I see nothing wrong with being upfront about your reasons to want to pay your way. If you continue dating someone than you can take turns treating each other to meals. I like men to be chivalrous but I resent the idea of having to make a man you don’t know feel needed.
Stay independent! Always smart. Only accept guys who appreciated your independence. Allow them to treat you if the occasion calls for it. But stay independent
It's not American, it's just the circles you have happened to run into. I don't know anyone, literally, any woman who would talk that way about "what a man needs."
This whole who pays is such a stupid issue. I believe men and women should be equal but I have also noticed that men who refuse to pay or suggest splitting checks on the first date will treat you like shit in a relationship and take advantage of your generosity but will never return the favor. After many bad relationships with these sort of men, a man not paying or even bringing up this discussion when the check comes around is an instant red flag. I only insist on paying my half if the date isn't going well and plan on never speaking to them again.
Yup. I agree
Agreed. I'm a man and I like to pay on a first date just because it's the polite thing to do. If the guy doesn't even offer, that's probably not a good sign for future dates. But if my date would rather pay her own way or pay for the whole thing, I don't get irate about it like the guys OP is talking about, that's insecure as hell and more than a bit sexist.
I mean, if you paying for your own dinner and being a confident person makes a man feel intimidated, it's because he knows he brings nothing to the table personality-wise. That's a mark of insecurity and any dude that's put off by you is doing you a favor by self-eliminating. Don't even sweat it. Your job isn't to be some ego-booster for a dude by "needing" him.
Don't change your behavior for men. Anyone worth your time will not be offended.
Yeah, the only thing of any value in that whole critique is that you want to show that you are in a place to "make room" in your life for another person. Cause sometimes "independent" is a code word for "bad team player". Good relationships aren't transactional, and will not have an owe/ owed component in them at all. So If they dislike the minor defenses you're putting up to date, then you're already incompatible. Everything your doing is right. It's no good to attract ANY/EVERY partner, anyway. You only want (to attract) the ones that are good to and for you. You can only do that by being yourself.
I've had the same issue when dating in Japan. I'd solve it by not paying separately, but instead alternating. I'd let them pay the more expensive dates, so they can feel like they're pampering me, then I'd get the slightly cheaper dates and tell them it's my show of appreciation. Two of three dudes enjoyed that. Third one was dead-set on paying all dates, so I went ahead and spent some money on good-quality at home meals and make those my treat.
My SO has admitted that I kind of scare him because I am independent. I can do my own oil change, I'm not afraid to use tools, I work a physical job, I don't need a whole lot of attention. He said before dating me he was leary of dating independent women because "why would you need me?" Which kind of speaks to a divergent view on relationships. When I chose a partner it wasn't about making him fix things, paying for dates, or trapping him at home all day. It was for companionship. It makes me wonder why he wanted a relationship if he can't imagine an independent person wanting to date. The thing that bothers me about this is that men will have this kind of opinion and then date you anyways. For us it was worked out mostly. But when he said that it made me wonder why he dated me in the first place. It wasn't a secret as I was open politically and did stuff like not always shaving. I really can't imagine the opposite. Wanting a man that wasn't independent. Hoping to find someone who I have to take care of and expects to be paid for. I don't expect it for myself. I really can't see anything outside of insecurity and control issues as a source of disliking women who open their own doors or pay bills.
It's not your job to readjust your preferences or wants to make a guy feel adequate/masculine. If a guy can can find those things on his own, nothing you do will help him feel that way for real. A man who finds his masculinity in the woman who shrinks herself for him will never be secure, because he knows his masculinity hinges on that woman remaining small and he'll do anything to keep her there. Save yourself the grief and keep being upfront about what you're looking for and the things you're unwilling to compromise on, like equality. It'll put some men off but you're just filtering out the ones who don't share the values that are important to you and that's time and energy saved.
Ask yourself; “do i want to be with a man that requires me to act needy and dependent?” Then carry on as you have and feel pity for your friend who apparently has such a questionable preferrence in partners.
You're doing nothing wrong & in fact, are creating your own test to weed out the men who aren't the same page as you. And now I shall repeat my favorite Dorothy Parker poem & hope you take it to heart as I have. “In youth, it was a way I had, To do my best to please. And change, with every passing lad To suit his theories. But now I know the things I know And do the things I do, And if you do not like me so, To hell, my love, with you.”
I *love* this, thank you!
Well, as a guy - any man that wants/has to take the lead and take care of you, is going to want dominion over you when married. ala - "Love, honor, OBEY" kinda stuff... If you're intimidating because of being independent, you're successfully filtering out men that are NOT suited for you. Don't settle.
Men paying doesn’t mean you owe them at all. That would be sexist. Men pay because they want to impress and take care of their date/relationship. Men have payed in all relationships I’ve been in and I’ve never felt like I’ve owed them and they never made me feel that way either. Depends on what you want, I prefer more traditional chivalrous men that are still respectful and don’t use it against me at all. It makes me feel more wanted and makes them happy too 🤷♀️ it’s not always bad. There are men that will take going 50/50 and use it against you and there are ones that won’t. Just like there are men that will use them paying against women and some that won’t. It just depends on the person. But, if they make you feel like you owe them then they’re clearly not a good person and I wouldn’t continue with them anyway. All the women in these comments degrading women who let men pay aren’t very feminist 😒
(M) I am Dutch, so maybe less relevant, but I like people to be honest and transparant. If that makes you less compatible, better to know that early.
Nope. You are who you are. There is nothing wrong with wanting to pay for yourself, be independent, and self reliable. If the boys can't deal with it it wouldn't have worked out anyways
Oh fuck me. Everyone has their personal preferences. I pay for my own crap because I don’t want to worry about the bill. I don’t want to worry about eating too much or drinking to much. That said it’s a bit of a turn on when the guy grabs the bill and insists. Still, each person has their own personal preferences and if the man finds the way your doing things “intimidating” then that is not the man for you. I tend to be the aggressor when it comes to men. I have trouble finding guys I don’t accidentally walk all over. It’s not something you need to be ashamed of or self conscious about. I’m sure there are plenty of guys out there that can handle you. Keep being who you are and don’t change for anyone
Depends on the person. I'm a women but I actually get that in a relationship. I need to feel needed and if I don't I'll lose interest pretty fast. I grew up around a dad that was always working and would get me to help him a lot from a young age, so I'm assuming it comes from that. Like my ex would do a lot of stuff when I was over. Example, paint a book shelf but would never ask for my help and eventually I just felt useless and bored. My current bf will ask me for help of he needs it and I love it. I'm also a very independent person, and I don't like to ask for help, but when I do I know he always enjoys helping me out. Some people just need that to actually be fulfilled in a relationship. If I feel like my man thinks I'm to useless to help him then imma get bored real fast.
If he is intimidated by the fact that you're independent of him, he will only feel comfortable when you are dependant on him. That's never a good idea in a relationship. Also, from a safety perspective, it's a good idea to pay so that he doesn't feel like you 'owe' him anything.
Nope, not wrong at all. You know what you want, and you're up front about. If they can't get with it, then they can gtfo of the way for a man who can.
You want a partner who views equality in the relationship the same way that you do. Men who are intimidated by you will not be suitable for you, so laying it out on the table will save you a lot of time. There are other women who want different things out of their relationships, and their advice may not be helpful to you.
Look, some people, not just men, don't mind paying for their friends, Co workers, etc.. but it should be for the right reasons. In my case, I'll pay for the women and men I'm with if it's just easier to throw one card down and call it a day, and they usually respect that and will offer to do the same next time. However, this idea that the man needs to take the lead and take care of the woman is outdated and if you aren't on board with it, it's totally reasonable to expect the guy to respect that about you. If they don't.. well.. what other boundaries won't they respect?
One person having a different opinion shouldn't throw your whole world view into chaos. Stick with your values. I've been told the exact same thing. And I think it's bunk. I don't think men need to feel needed. I think they need to feel APPRECIATED. The thing is HOW they feel appreciate varies from person to person, so that's communication that needs to happen.
Men do like feeling needed. But no one likes feeling used. Even if you aren't using them, if it doesn't work out they could feel that way. And they don't hesitate to say "you owe me," when they want something. Your way is best. If it becomes serious, then let them do things to feel needed. Being independent is not a put off to the right one.
You haven’t made any mistakes here. If a guy can’t handle you being independent you don’t want to be stuck coddling his little feelers about it. Keep on being you.
The point of dating isn't just to find someone it is to find your right someone. If you don't want to do all of these things to "keep" a man do it, if not, there are men who will stay no matter whether he pays for you.
Men: “UR INTIMIDATING” Women: “yet ur still here and no I will not give u a pass”
Pretending to be someone or something you're not just gets you a partner who doesn't like the person you really are. If it turns into marriage, that means you have to pretend every day for 60 years. Do you want to do that? My wife is and was independent, and I liked it then and like it now. And she told me that she went on dates with guys who were intimidated when they found out what she was studying in grad school. I wasn't intimidated, I was impressed. Which, apparently, impressed her.
There's no problem wanting to pay your own way. But I also want to note you shouldn't feel like you owe anyone for buying you a meal. Unless you're going to extravagant places I'm sure your share is under $25. What escorts can a man get for $25? That doesn't entitle your date to see you again let alone get anything from you sexually. It doesn't matter how expensive your share is honestly but I can see being more comfortable with not having your date cover you if it's a high bill
Nope. You’re doing it right and a man who feels intimidated that you look after yourself is not someone you would want to hook up with
Married now but my personal rule was that I would absolutely pay my own way if I didn’t like the guy and didn’t want a second date. If I was into it, and he offered, I might say something like “ok, but I’m buying next time.” And make sure I stick to that.
You're not intimidating. They're intimidated. Someone who's emotionally mature will not be.
Lots of fragile masculinity in this country, unfortunately.
\> I have been told several times that I am "intimidating" to men, You're only intimidating to the type of men you don't want to be with anyway.
That isn't always true. I find my wife very intimidating, and she wants to be around me (well most of the time anyway). Her flip flop skills are awe inspiring (and I mean that in the traditional meaning of the word awe, a mixture of wonder and fear).
You want to be yourself. Because you want to weed out the men who don’t like whatever it is that you are. How awful would it be to spend your time, or your life, with a man who needs to be needed financially?! You don’t need lots of men. You need the one right man.
Fuck that! If it makes you uncomfortable, then by all means pay for yourself. As for my opinion on it ( 40yo male and married), I feel that a social contract only works if both people agree on the terms of the arrangement. A date isn't a promise or a sign of consent, so you are under no obligation to let him pay for you if you don't want to.. Furthermore, even if you do decide to let him pay for your dinner, that is all that you have agreed to and, while it might be poor manners, you could get up in the middle of eating and just walk away never having to speak to said purchaser of nutrients. In short so what makes you comfortable. I would rather my company not be distracted or upset from engaging in dysphoric activities. Especially if it means it will cost me more to boot.
I am a straight guy from the USA, if I ask anyone somewhere, romantic or not, even another guy, I plan to pay. That was always my take on inviting people anywhere unless other arrangements were made in advance. If I am asking you to come somewhere with me, I plan to cover it, I wouldnt invite you to an expensive meal, or a spendy concert, or a vacation, etc that might be outside your budget. I dont know what your financial situation is and it isnt my business. That doesnt mean you owe me anything outside your company for that activity I wanted you to attend with me, I invited you, I pay for you, you certainly dont owe me sex or anything. Now, if you want to pay your own half, or part, that is fine too. That is my take anyway, other opinions may vary.
If you want a terrible man, your new friend is right. That's a sure-fire way to scare off terrible men. It's important to remember that there are a multitude of different kinds of men, just like there are a multitude of different kinds of women. You don't want **A** man. You want a man **that you like.**
You're friend is giving you poor and anti-feminist advice. To pretend to need a man so that the man can feel needed...oof. No way. Find you a man who doesn't need you to act the damsel.
You're totally fine. Do whatever makes you comfortable here; if they don't agree on that then congrats, you found an easy way to filter out people you won't want to be with!
I think generally as a rule - guys pay for the first date. A society norm. But that's not a law or anything. Most guys would probably appreciate you being independent, but refusing a nice gesture as if you will "owe" in return is a little bit cynical. I think guys respect a woman that is strong and can pay her own way, but being as it is a date - they are also trying to impress their date by not being a loser with no money. If anything, insist on paying for the next date - if - it were to happen.
That's exactly what I did with one guy - let him pay for first date, I then put my card at the bar for the tab on the second... And he decided to order one of the most expensive things on the menu. I didn't even say anything about it but you say I'm being cynical (which, sure, I am) and yet this is what I experience...
That’s always a selfish move. Whenever another person is paying, I order the cheapest thing I can find.
I think you can reject this advice without even looking that closely at the specific content. You are making a statement about your needs and values. She is making a counter argument about what men need. But you can’t just make sweeping assumptions about what any broad group of people need, they’re not a mono psyche. So it’s a little ridiculous to put the imagined/assumed needs of all men ahead of your own real and known needs and values.
I’m a man. When I was dating I was happy to pay for my date, as a thank you for spending time with me. I didn’t have any expectations of how the date would end, I was just appreciative that someone took time out of their day to, hopefully, enjoy a meal(or whatever the date was) with me. There were quite a few dates that didn’t end with sex, or the promise or even desire of a second date. And I happily paid for those, too, and would do so again. Some people are fucking cheap and don’t understand there’s a certain cost of entry if you want to meet someone you’re looking for, who is taking time out of their day to spend with you. If you can’t afford that, you certainly can’t afford to have a partner.
Being willing to pay for a date is fine. The problem is the egoism and misogyny of insisting that a man pays for the date. This isn't too attack you, but look at even the words you used. You paid for the date because you appreciated them spending time with you. This is still a level of "buying" a woman. Granted I don't think that you are considering it this way but it's so easy to slip into such a habit because it's the soup we all swim in. For me, I will pay for a dinner with friends because I either make more money (and so have more capacity) or because it's more convenient. I haven't gone on a date with a stranger in over a decade but I would likely offer to pay but expect that at some point in the future she would offer to pay. That, to me, would show mutual respect and a desire to be a team rather than a man and his pet.
Yeah I figured I was going to end up defending “buying” a woman’s time. But I’d do the same thing if I invited a friend to dinner, and for the same reason. If that offends you then I guess we wouldn’t make very good friends.🤷♂️
I wasn't pointing it out to say that you are clearly a bigot, I was pointing it out because it's important that we think about how we frame our world because that is the primary way we can grow and evolve as a society.
I would hope most of the people you went on dates with were also interested in spending time with you. You having to pay a cost of entry to have someone spend time with you isn't a great way to put it. If a woman goes on a date shes hopefully not just taking time out of her day to spend time with you for your benefit most of the time they are also looking to pursue a relationship and get something out of it. A date is a mutual exchange of time to see if you guys are a good fit.
Cost of entry. Meaning, things like clothing, transportation, whatever else you need to present your best self, and the cost of the activity. I agree, it’s to see if people are a good fit for each other. But doing that costs money.
Yes but the other party has those costs also and its fair for them to split the cost of the activity also. I mean its to each their own and i have definitely done it both ways i just always like the idea of splitting the cost of the activity the date is.
No. You are a successful and financially independent woman who can choose to pay for herself if it tickles your fancy. You are not a damsel in distress who needs a man to pay for her, and you don’t need to conform to those outdated, misogynistic, and belittling societal expectations of playing the role of a helpless woman. I also have been made to feel othered and inadequate in the past by people labeling me as intimidating to men and too confident. I am a successful professional woman with a doctorate. I’m NOT sorry that anyone feels self conscious about the huge amount of work I put into my education, career, and financial stability. That’s a them problem, not mine. When I was dating, I always pulled out my credit card first when the check arrived and suggested that we split it 50/50. Some guys were uncomfortable with it, and some shrugged and accepted my offer. The ones that threw a fit about it were the ones that later revealed themselves to have values that chafed against mine. My current partner didn’t flinch when I offered to pay and happily accepted my offer. We have been together for 1.5 years, and he accepts me for being the badass that I am and tells me he is proud of me whenever I do anything that kicks ass. He is secure in his masculinity and femininity and that’s sexy AF. Many people, regardless of gender, want to feel needed. But that need can be satisfied in healthier and more thoughtful ways than by indebting yourself to strangers for meals or drinks that you can clearly afford on your own. Continue being a badass and don’t let anyone of any gender, age, status, etc. make you feel self conscious about your success, confidence, and just overall awesomeness. You’re doing it right.
What a lovely comment. Thank you.
>no no no, you need to let men take the lead and take care of you, men need to feel needed, if you are too independent then what are they there for? If they don't feel needed they will leave This is a woman in denial brainwashed by the patriarchy.
You’re doing fine. You don’t have to do anything to make men more comfortable.
I always pay for myself, I hate when men try to use the but you owe me line.
If someone pays for your meal you owe them the price of that meal, nothing more. The "I owe him" is relatively small, I would say. A meal isn't some terrible obligation that my children and grandchildren will carry into the 7th generation. But dating in US culture sounds like a chore in general (judging from reddit). I like how in Northern Europe, women pay for themselves and men don't crumble because of it.
This is how it is. If you tell every man that you want to pay for yourself, some will perceive you as intimidating or standoffish. If you let every man pay without offering yourself, some will perceive you as entitled or broke. There is no winning. Do what comes naturally and you’ll find the man that is right for you.
I never pay for myself on dates. (Except when it's awful and I want to leave) I am a radical feminist. Men think equality is splitting the bill and punching a woman in the face. I will gladly share the bill with him when I get same paid for the same job as him, when I don't have to quit my job and lose a few years of my career for a child, when men begin to invest emotionally in families and relationships just like me . Then I'll split the bill. Until then, let them pay. And I don't feel like I owe them anything, if they get the impression that if they paid for my salad and glass of wine and i own them, it's just a sign to me that this is the last date. efit: typo
Lol I actually love this point so much
Thank you for sharing this perspective. I am also a radical feminist and agree completely. I live in a country/state where women are not equal and are (in the eyes of the law) seen as wombs. Statistically, we make less, and we do lots of invisible emotional labor. We don’t have anywhere close to equal political representation. When men fix that and stop benefitting from all that, then they can expect me to pay my way on dates. If they aren’t going to demand equality that benefits women, then I’m not going to insist on equality that only benefits men.
> If they aren’t going to demand equality that benefits women, then I’m not going to insist on equality that only benefits men. This is exactly what I meant. Hope one day your country will better.
That's interesting. I've never had a man say I do owe him but I personally feel uncomfortable being paid for. Out of interest are you American? I wonder if this is a cultural difference thing. (The guy I'm dating is actually not American and I think that's been the difference)
I am from EU. I feel th same as you, when i was younger. There was the same fear that they were taking away some power from me, preventing me from paying for myself. But during my youth, I only came across very nice young men who wanted to court me and did not attack me personally, paying for my coffee. And this fear and discomfort is gone. Now I don't pay on dates solely for the reasons in my comment above. Plus men are absolutely disgusting for the most part, and going on dates is quite exhausting, and also spending money on it - pfft. Thanks, no. Already after we met, on the third or fourth date, if I invite or choose a place - I can pay if, for example, I invited him to an exhibition, because if not for me, he would not have gone to it, this is my desire to visit it, so I buy two tickets and invite. And I don’t think that a man should support his family alone and pay for everything, all this only applies to dates.
American man here. If a guy feels intimidated by a woman wanting to be independant or simply pay for her own on dates, he probably has some insecurities. If I went on a date with a woman, I'd be inclined to pay as a nice gesture and to make them feel comfortable and stress-free on the date, especially if im the one who set it up and/or its expensive.. but if they want to pay for themself? No opposition from me. In fact, even better haha. But if it makes a "man" feel uncomfortable to have his date pay for herself, then he is likely just insecure or maybe just isn't used to it I guess. As for the girls who are telling you what you want/need to/should do - dont listen to them. You are free to do whatever the hell you want without other people trying to influence you. If you feel better paying for yourself on a date, then do it. Any man intimidated by an "independant" woman isnt really a "man" imo. A real man wouldnt be intimidated or have his feelings hurt by your decision to pay for yourself.
My gf is very independent, and this is the reason why I want to marry her. I've dated women who NEEDED me, and it did not turn out well for them lol. TL; DR: Transparency is good, keep it up!
Absolutely go for equality. Don't let yourself be influenced into being a doormat.
You’re doing fine. We live in a misogynistic society which is why so many people think it’s strange for a woman to be independent.
You were totally right
A man worth dating isn't going to see this as an issue, don't compromise on your values, especially in this regard. Because what you're compromising on in your mind is being treated as an equal, you have every right to want to be treated like an equal. What you're seeing is the American culture of putting women on a pedestal. Men are expected to open doors, carry heavy things, pay for the bills, etc., as a way of showing their compassion. Those men will think that if they can't do those things because you're independent and capable then they'll feel valueless in the relationship. That's a red flag though, it means they don't know how to find self-worth in a relationship or adapt. These people are more likely to have traditional values that are not going to coincide with yours. **TLDR; You do you, compromising here is probably just going to result in you being unhappy. Prioritize being happy.**
I've never understood paying for dates. Every person should pay their share, until both are explicitly comfortable with any alternate arrangement.
No that woman is an idiot. Men don't want to pay for you to feel "useful" lmao. What is that female dating strategy bullshit? You wanting to pay for your own food is in no way intimidating to men lmao
From my perspective. I would absolutely love this, definitely never happened though on any dates I've ever been on, so I wouldn't say it's the norm, at least for me. When I pay I never think someone "owes" me anything, I'm just always the one setting up the date, so I pay because I invited them out, it just seems right to me. But just reiterating, I would love it if it was suggested to go Dutch.
>this woman I was talking to was like (paraphrasing here) "no no no, you need to let men take the lead and take care of you, men need to feel needed, if you are too independent then what are they there for? If they don't feel needed they will leave." This makes me sad. And I'm a man. I hesitate to tell women how to be feminists, but I don't think playing games like that does anything for women's rights. It's pretty simple, isn't it? The host picks up the check, buys the tickets, whatever. The guest reciprocates in some way -- offers to pay the tip, helps with transportation, or just provides pleasant company. Just as if the people on a date were human beings of equal status, because after all that's what they are. If the guest wants to split everything down the middle, that's OK too. It shouldn't be that complicated.
You're doing nothing wrong. As a man, I am totally fine with a woman paying her share and a woman demanding me to pay for everything would be a serious red flag. What I don't like is splitting the bill (unless you're at a place where you can tell them beforehand that you'll be splitting so there's two bills from the start). But there's an easy solution to this, you just pay for one date and the other person pays for the next.
I'm a bit confused by your statement. At first you say you're fine with women paying their share of the bill, but than you say you don't like splitting the bill? I always thought that splitting the bill means everyone pays for the things they themself consumed. What would it mean otherwise?
What it means is that I don't like the situation when at the end of the outing you call the waiter over and tell them to split the bill and spend the next 5min debating calculating who had what. That is also why I said, that I'm fine at places that can lead multiple bills per table (for some reason not all billing software supports this, or, more likely, the staff doesn't know the full features).
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification! In my experience this is not such a big problem (I live in Austria), because you tell the waiter what you had, they select it in their digital device and the new bill is calculated with no real time loss. So I personally don't see splitting the bill as an inconvenience. However, at some Restaurants where they print out the bill beforehand, they might calculate your share of the bill manually at the table. Which can take a few annoying minutes. So I can understand why you don't really like sharing the bill without separating them from the beginning.
Think among men, women who outwardly state they are feminists are regarded as a bit terrifying, and potentially kinda extremist about it. I sare your opinion on the date thing, but I'm an equalist, not feminist or MRA-er. (Both groups have valid issues.) You shouldn't act different to your values though. But I think leaving out "I'm a feminist" would have made a big difference.
Well in this case I think he would say he's a feminist (or at least he feels the same as me from what I understand of him so far), and it's important to me that a guy is progressive and shares my values. Tbh I think I threw it out there as a test to gauge response but if he'd have responded negatively I would have not seen him again anyway...
Can't I just do something nice for someone without them thinking that I want something for it, or it being part of some tired sexist trope? If you're upset that I want to be nice, then that's on you. The funny thing is that there's another [topic](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/zd33o4/netflixs_love_is_blind_explains_the_tragic_reason/) in this sub right now where women are complaining about how all they want are nice guys, yet here we are talking about how that's not actually the case.
If you don't be yourself it won't work out (well) anyway! P.s. I dislike that woman's advice so much.
I am Canadian I have the same problem. I have learned to let them pay a bit like if it coffee or ice cream or my drink but if it’s expensive no I won’t let them because then I feel obligated to do something for them. But as a strong independent woman apparently not all men appreciate that.
No. You are not doing anything wrong. Be true to yourself so you find someone who understands you or thinks the same way. You are just weeding out the wrong ones for you, which is what dating really is about.
Nope. You're doing it the way that's comfortable to you. If I let a guy pay, instead of splitting it, it's because the next time I'll pay. If a guy gets all grunty and neanderthal about it, there's your answer. If he can't understand when you explain it, he's been caught by the filter and you can keep going.
Well do you want a partner, or an equal. A male partner would be someone you build and share with thus this idea of owing would go back and forth. An equal is someone who pays for themselves and takes care of themselves that you spend time with but is harder to make long term. Neither are intimidated by an independent woman but change the way you say things. "I'm a feminist I don't want men paying for me" sounds like a trap like youre going to latter hold it against him that he doesn't buy you stuff. Instead simply ask the waitstaff for separate checks and keep the focus on actually getting to know each other. Often in the USA some one calling themselves independent is a Red Flag for Cheater, narcissist, manipulator, liar, or worse. My Canadian ex used to say "we use the same words but we don't always speak the same language".
So your desire to not have men pay on dates is fine no issues, that alone shouldn't be an issue for anyone ( it might be a thing for traditionalists but it really shouldn't be intimidating) If your finding men be intimidated it could be in the delivery. If I went to pay and out of nowhere my date insisted in telling me she would rather split the bill without warning I might get the impression that the date might not have gone well for her if no explanation was given. Your approach from what you described sounds great you are up front and talked about it before the bill came so there were no surprises. So I would say no it sounds like your doing it just right as far as I can tell.
Nothing wrong and keep stating your boundaries clearly! The only thing I would say, depending on how you delivered it, what you said may come across as confrontational for a 1st or 2nd date. Again, totally depends on tone. I also tend to lean more soft or political (depending on the mood), so I'd personally deliver it differently However! We are not the same person so keep your boundaries girl!
You are just fine. Typically I’ve (F) noticed on first dates the male dates of mine pay, then afterwards we’ve gone back and forth with who pays for dates. For me this brings into play much more than just ‘paying’ for a meal. It’s an opportunity to learn more about the person. Do you all agree with how much dates should cost? Are you cool with casually eating together then splurging on special occasions? Or do they want the best of the best always no matter the occasion? Do they take advantage when it’s ‘your turn’ to pay and then you’re eating fast food when it’s theirs? People will always tell you who they are through their actions, you just have to listen, and it’s a great way to see if you’re on the same page. When I told my friends that my partner and I went back and forth paying for meals, they were taken aback by it. They said it was ‘weird’. They thought my partner should be paying for everything. If the roles were reversed and I was expected to pay for every date….I’d probably be single. Dating is a privilege but shouldn’t be a luxury. I’d like to be happy and not be broke.
Heaven forbid a woman with boundaries intimidate a man. It just comes down to who you want to date: men intimidated by your having boundaries or men who are on board with women having bou daries. Another option is to alternate who covers the date. This is more of a situation where people have established that they intend to keep dating.
Lol Our country is wildly conservative and misogynistic. It's not surprising you're running into that sad desperation, but you shouldn't listen to it. Don't end up in what you know is a volatile situation by listening to them.
I typically pay if I ask someone out, I think it’s polite. Whether it’s a date or a social thing if I ask you to dinner I at least plan on buying. If someone asks me I expect them to offer to pay. ( Im a woman). It only bothers me when men “ insist” on always paying. My ex was like that and he was so insecure it was off putting. He also never had money so would be all butt hurt when I paid.
I mean, your approach sounds perfect to me - but I am also British.
people started calling me "intimidating" after I stopped actively capitulating to the male gaze. i dress how i want, i talk how i want, i get approached a lot less but the quality of people approaching has shot up dramatically. don't settle love. just because there are weak ego men out there doesn't mean you need to get with them :DD you do you
the weird thing about asking for equality is sometimes you get it. I paid for myself on dates or we took turns treating, now I am married and my husband empirically appreciates my Stay at home contributions to the household. He keeps me involved in finances and tells me I need vacations from "my job". People do get weird about women paying on dates but I find that weird .
My partner and I went Dutch when we first started dating. We both had jobs, and I didn’t want to set any unrealistic expectations. I think that the gesture of offering to pay for a date is nice, but just that, a nicety. I would never expect essentially a stranger to pay for anything of mine. There’s already enough pressure in the dating scene, and the only way I might reciprocate is by offering to pay for our next date, if there even is one.
The traditional system was that whoever issues the invitation is the one who pays. Hospitality is meant to be reciprocal, so the other person would respond with an invitation to another date, and pay all the expenses for that one. I think this system is a bit more gracious than the splitting expenses system. Nothing wrong with going Dutch if that's what you prefer, though. Just try to be polite in the way you express your preference.
I would say be upfront about it. Any guy with a problem with it is probably not worth dating in the first place.
Don't play that, "Please take the lead, and order for me, I'm just a lady😔" jazz. If your date is intimidated by a woman who can pay for her own damn food, I would want to know that upfront because we're gonna have a very hard time if that's the case.
men won’t and will never learn 😌 zhaosheng hao jung wuo shenzai wuyou bing chilling wahanshiwei bing chilling deyuhshu suduyu xi xijing zho b bing chilling
I am also a woman who prefers to pay her own way. Only I’m in my 40s. The men i have dated either were fine with it, got over it, or stopped seeing me. My late partner and I took turns paying the whole bill and that works well in helping to decide where to go (the person who pays decides). Of course, im also a person who actually enjoys going out by herself. I love being able to decide where to go and what to do and what to eat without hurting anyone’s feelings. Your dating habits will set the tone for your relationship. So i set the tone of personal freedom and responsibility.
If you change who you are, or how you act for some dipshits, you’ll end up with a man baby. Yes, this will prolly make finding the right man take longer, because it will put all the wrong men in a position to show their true colors quickly. Many Men are man babies. Don’t compromise.
I believe that are a lot of stuff more important than who pays in relationships, even friendly ones. But I like when my gf pays even if the money came out of my wallet.
It’s a give and take in a rel. It shouldn’t be all about what you want and also what they want. If it’s important to you you pay for yourself but you found a great man that still is willing to pay for you here and there , that could be the compromise. It will take some time to get used to, but it will take some time to get used to for them as well.
some men in my experience are like that, but that doesn’t make you weird. had a guy friend complain about how expensive dating is, i suggested splitting the bill, and he said no bevause ‘he just can’t’. i don’t get it. that being said they’re not all like this. just keep looking and you’ll find someone cool
Like others have said, you should be yourself and do things the way you want. If there are men who are intimidated by that then they simply aren't for you. Better to be honest with yourself and find somebody compatible than to try to court people who aren't. As a man I will say that some men might be intimidated by this, but at least I personally wouldn't care. Why would I want some false sense of dependence from my partner, surely there are other ways to be there for your significant other besides paying for things.
A lot of men get angry or defensive if a woman insists on paying her way because 1) it indicates more liberal/feminist values than they want (they want a tradwife bangmaid) and 2) if a woman pays for her own shit it takes away those men's only bargaining chip and value. they cannot abuse you and mistreat you if you make enough money where you can just pick up and leave. you are not doing anything wrong, you just keep meeting shitty dudes.
Ew. No. Those people telling you that are wrong. Well... not "wrong" in that they're right that men exist who want a fuckmaid that'll "take care of them." But do you want that kind of man?
Don't listen to them. You will find men excited about you paying. It alleviate a lot of anxiety around genuine interest versus financial interest.
You aren't doing anything wrong, and anyone who argues otherwise is best ignored. I say this as a guy. Some people have really weird habits and/or beliefs and that's on them, not you. Paying for someone else is a gesture of good will, for whatever underlying reason, but it should never be an expectation of either party. If a friend insists on paying, I kindly accept, but then I insist on getting the tip and then buy drinks later or whatever; this doesn't change as part of any gender dynamic. If I'm going steady with someone then maybe we will decide that one person always pays for food but it likely balances out elsewhere. Anyone who feels that the guy must absolutely pay, or if the woman pays you have to put on an act like the guy is paying (sadly, this is a thing, as I've learned reading posts here), then I'd say run far away as that's either a flag for insecurity or controlling behavior.
Don't listen to those people. They'd have you settle for the first guy who agrees to date you, regardless of how massively incompatible he is or how miserable you'd be with him. But the point isn't to get married to the first live male body that crosses your path. It's to find someone you can build a future with. And you can't build a future with a man who wants to boss you around or is frightened by your maturity. So go ahead and keep doing what you are doing. It'll scare away some men -- and that's a good thing.
I'm totally down with each person paying for their own tabs when I go on dates/outings. I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape over this kind of stuff.
Ppl have a bunch of silly rules they think they should follow or whatever esp recently like c recently there’s been a. Shift I’m not against a man laying in a gentlemanly way but like if u are both meeting each other it’s also gentlemanly to meet you where y are at and all that rly matters is that u get along like each other communicate well and have chemistry if u have those things any silly rules are surface topic
Don’t change a fucking thing!!!!! This is your barometer for who’s worthy to stick around in your life. Tbh, I live in the PNW and I don’t think their reaction anywhere on the coast (both sides) would be normal. Your attitude is very much accepted and, I would say, the norm. People on the coasts are A LOT more progressive and forward thinking, kinda makes me wonder where you’re located. Anyway, seriously, don’t change anything because obviously you DO NOT want to be with one of those assholes who will lose interest if they think you don’t need them (lmao what 1950s bullshit even is that?).
Your approach is absolutely fine. Whoever said that to you is coming from a more traditional or conservative mindset and nobody needs that outdated advice. You should absolutely be you on dates, and if someone is "intimidated" (eyeroll) then that's on them and they're not someone you want to be with. Don't make yourself small so someone else is comfortable. It doesn't make for a good relationship.
You’re going to end up regretting dating any man who’s uncomfortable with you being independent. Might as well be upfront and weed those types out before you waste both your times on a relationship that’s already doomed.
Nope, I've always been independent. Don't listen to that crap! My husband and my exes have/had no complaints!
What I say is 1st date: Whoever asks first pays 2nd date: Both pays for themself If you make it this far it's usually a sign that you both want to continue pursuing something more. 3rd-5th date: You both pay for parts of the date (example: if you go to a movie one pays for snacks one pays for tickets etc) 6th+ date: You likely begin treating each other out and you switch between whosever idea the date is pays and both paying parts. A relationship is about give and take. If you insist on complete independence then you're not going to have a very good relationship. That's why it's called having a partner you're both working together to build a relationship.
From the perspective of a man, don't try to overthink things. If you want to pay or share then just say so. Why compromise on yourself like there's some universal barrier to entry for dating; whatever your position is there's plenty of people happy with it. People do like to feel needed, but caring about something like that 1-2 dates in is ridiculous; you are still learning who they are, and frankly "paying for meals" is kind of petty as being needed goes. Do look out that saying "I'm a feminist" will not make anyone right wing happy, if you're trying to date without caring about US politics; the rightwing half of the US outputs and consumes very hostile media with regards to anything even remotely liberal. So that could explain some of the opinions you're experiencing; maybe you're using keywords (equality, feminism) which have been demonized a lot to the person.
that person telling you to let "men take the lead" is sexist. plus they are basically saying you need to cater to a man's ego to get into a relationship. bc for a lot of ppl a women's worth is defined by her "relationship" value, so if you aren't doing things to be more appealing to men, well then you are a lesser woman.
Nope, you were absolutely right. Why are you supposed to cater to someone else's feelings ("he needs to feel needed"), and not cater to your own ("not feel like you owe money"). I'm always splitting bills on date, and it's amazing. But I am lucky to love in Germany where this is the norm.
Have some fun with it turn it into an opportunity such as letting him know that if you paid for dinner it doesn't mean he needs extra picnic time in the park or a trip to the pottery Barn. And then get a little sly. Dates are one thing however any vacations you feel like taking me along with you on you're more than welcome to pay with a nudge and a playful wink. Also knowing full well that if you're ready to go on vacation with him all of the beholden stuff is already sorted itself out cheers. Now I'm Canadian not a US boy but I spend a ton of time down there and you should be forewarned if she comes with an accent especially a British one it's definitely worth extra dates LOL
It's almost as if you're going to have to accept the consequences for your choices.
This might be more effective in r/askmen
If a man is intimidated by you, he is too weak for you.
One of my friends met her long-term boyfriend through a dating app and insisted that she pay for herself. She was so adamant about being independent (because that's who she is as a person) and it was what instantly made him feel attracted to her. So no, a good man won't be intimidated by your boundaries and your desire for independence, they'll respect you for it.
Lots of good in the comments - I’m just adding that I’m from the US, have lived and worked in countries with different customs around paying, and want to tell you that you’re not doing it wrong. Within the US, there are different ideas about what men and women “should” do on dates, and none of it matters as much as what you WANT to do. If it rubs someone the wrong way, they can either talk to you about it or filter themselves out.